|
Author
|
Topic: Be Very Careful
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Imagine that. Did you see that Drew?
He was healed not because of his great faith, but because God had mercy on him!!!! What a concept.
Was God being a respector of persons all the other times he healed healing because of their great fatih? Or is healing always because God has mercy on the one who is healed?
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
What think ye?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
2 Tim. 4:
19: Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
20: Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
21: Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
22: The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
Phil. 2:
25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. 26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. 27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. 29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation: 30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
quote:
Then it's just as amazing that God can't save a man's soul unless that person comes to Christ.
Hello. No man can come to Christ lest the father draws them to Christ and ALL the father gives Christ come!
We dont chose Christ; We are chosen for Christ by the Father who must give the first grace to your sinful soul that you can repent and believe in the first place.
quote:
According to your statement above God could save a sinner without the sinner having any faith.
NOT So! According to my stement above the faith to save the sinner is given by GOD in the first place.
quote:
God set His own parameters on those issues and while God CAN do anything He wishes, He has demonstrated to us by the scriptures that it requires Faith.
No He has not demonstrated to us that healing requires faith. He has demonstrated to us that the Father sent him to call the lost sheep of Israel and to bring deliverance to the Children and that those children would be known because they would believe that JESus was the son of the Living God and that belief would be demonstrated by their faith in his ability to heal them.
If it was your God given right as part of your re-birth to have this mortal body healed in this life there would be no sickness in the church.
Paul would have never been sick.
No one has said that God wills us to be sick. What I have said is that GOD does will this body to die some day and all manner of aging and corruption that this body sees is a form of sickness a form of the affects of sin.
YOu are free FROM sin. You are not free OF sin. It still lives in the world and in your flesh and as long as it does your body is gonna get sick from time to time. These bodies were not meant to be imortal.
There is no place in the scriptures to the church that say you are guaranteed to be healed of all sickness if you just believe that you are.
There are many places in the scriptures to the church that say these bodies will suffer in this life. These bodies are subject to the same suffering that the body of the unbeliever are subject to.
1 Peter 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 ¶ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
What should be the thermometer that determines the state of my spiritual state with God? Should it be whether I am in pain or not? Is God’s power diminished because of my health? Does God look at me as a handicapped person, or does He judge me by my soul?
If people were to judge themselves by their own physical health, you would find your spiritual health bouncing up and down like a rubber ball. Even Christians who are not handicapped get illnesses. One day you see you’re Pastor and he feels great, the next day he has the flu. Did his spiritual health fall apart during the night?
White Eagle you make the comment that you as a nurse try to help sick people who come to you. I have taken my doctor’s advice and lost weight and increased my exercise. I have not crawled into bed and stayed. I do what I can to keep myself strong, but I do not see my handicap as a an excuse to stop serving God nor do I see it as a punishment from God. I have pointed out to you in my Church family in Texas how the preacher’s daughter who serves the Lord inherited MD while her sister who does not serve the Lord did not. Do you think that God does not know which daughter servers Him?
White Eagle, how about you showing me in the Bible where a Christian is told to judge another Christian by their physical health. You know the devil seeks to use you to destroy me, but God in His mercy gives me the strength to ignore you and your arrogance.
Yes, you have caused me pain and yes, I have shed tears over your mean and hateful comments to me and about me. But today, I feel neither anger or hurt because of you. I feel only pity. Why? One day you may become ill and when you do, your faith will suffer because you place all of your faith not in God but having perfect health. For this I feel pity for you.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
I'm still waiting patiently for someone to supply the scripture or scriptures that say that God wants for us to be ill. And that God allows us to be ill for His purposes.
Waiting......
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I have never denied the power of God. It is amazing to me that you could claim that God can't heal a man who doesnt have enough faith to be healed and then tell me I deny the power of God!
I am saying to You God can and does do what ever he pleased when He pleases with whom he pleased and if God wanted to heal the bigest athiest on the planet HE could and it require no faith in the man.
What I am saying is that the healing of this mortal dying body in this life is not the guaranteed right of a bliever because they are saved.
Then it's just as amazing that God can't save a man's soul unless that person comes to Christ.
According to your statement above God could save a sinner without the sinner having any faith.
God set His own parameters on those issues and while God CAN do anything He wishes, He has demonstrated to us by the scriptures that it requires Faith.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I have never denied the power of God. It is amazing to me that you could claim that God can't heal a man who doesnt have enough faith to be healed and then tell me I deny the power of God!
I am saying to You God can and does do what ever he pleased when He pleases with whom he pleased and if God wanted to heal the bigest athiest on the planet HE could and it require no faith in the man.
What I am saying is that the healing of this mortal dying body in this life is not the guaranteed right of a bliever because they are saved.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
White Eagle:
quote:
This is how one looks at this problem in the Natural. What I mean, is that this World judges and condemmns us by our actions and our failings or by our weaknesses. You are attributing the attributes of the World to Christians.
Have you not done just what the world does as stated above when you say this to our sister Betty.
quote:
I believe God is dealing with you in this area and He can help you and you can by faith put all your diseases under the Blood and give it to Him.
Can you please show me scripture to support the possibility of one "putting their disease under the blood" ?
If we are born again children of the living God sealed and indwelled BY HIS Holy Spirit; Our very being is under the blood. We do not live with somethings "under" the blood and some not.
We put our very being under the blood the day we believed! There is not one scripture in the Bible that tells the Bride/ Church of God to put anything under the blood. We are NEW CReatures BORN of GOD NOW who occupy mortal dying bodies because we put our sins under the blood the day we believed!!!!!!!!!!!
You cling to the old man and the old nature and the sin in the flesh with this garbage and you dont even know it! And the devil laughs, you give him more power than he has on his own and he does laugh!
The church/bride is a heavenly creature not a bound earthy one. We suffer all things earthy and yet we are well; because we are not of the earth!!!!!!!!
The Devil laughes when you deny the Power of God through the Blood of Jesus Christ.
He laughes as it is the devil that keeps people in bondage to illness and disease. Yes God can redeem it according to our faith. That's the hard truth. It is according to our faith.
Jesus said this to people over and over. Your faith has made you well. Let it be according to your faith. It's in the Gsopels over and over for anyone with eyes to see.
Another hard truth in scripture:
I Corithians 11:27-32 (I'll let ones read it, who dare.)
When we submit to God of which we need to do daily, as Jesus said to take up your cross daily.
Paul said daily sacrifice of our bodies to die to self. We are under the Blood. We take communion we are under the Blood. We take all our cares to God and He sees us under the Blood. We have to surrender things as we walk with God and put them in His control.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Unbelievable!!!! White Eagle, you have NO Idea the HARM you are doing! Please Stop it!
Your words imply that Betty does not have enough faith or does not know God... how Arrogant is that? We have been through and through this argument on healing and faith... God does not always choose to heal everyone - for HIS Own Reasons. PLEASE stop tearing down others who are ill when you DON'T know God's reasons in their lives. You are doing GREAT HARM to them!
On the contrary. How arrogant is it to believe that you have ARRIVED. It's pride and arrogance to think that one knows all there is to know about God.
It's arrogant to not able to admit that one's faith could be increased if they would allow God to increase it.
The harm comes from those who feel they have arrived with God.
Why is healing such a divisive issue?
We are to take everything in our life to the crosss and put it under the Blood. It's called Surrender to God.
It's like this:
I'm a nurse. I want to being people to have a better state of health. Often I need to teach them certain things about their medications and certain things about how their body works so they can start being aware of their own signs and symptoms. If they deny they have a problem with their knowledge or their health, I can't help them, in the long run. When my service is over and they are on their own, and they haven't decided to take responsibility for their own health, they will be back in the same pickle.
The same thing with God on a much higher level. If we can't admit or deny that we need Him, He can't help us be overcomers. Overcomers in all things, not just illness. We are all sinners, even when we are covered by the Blood.
We are to submit all things to God. We put it under the Blood. If our mind accepts the illness, then we will certainly keep it.
Where in the Bible does it say that God wants us to be sick? Where in the Bible does it say that God allows us to be sick for His purposes?
Chapter and verse please!
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
White Eagle:
quote:
This is how one looks at this problem in the Natural. What I mean, is that this World judges and condemmns us by our actions and our failings or by our weaknesses. You are attributing the attributes of the World to Christians.
Have you not done just what the world does as stated above when you say this to our sister Betty.
quote:
I believe God is dealing with you in this area and He can help you and you can by faith put all your diseases under the Blood and give it to Him.
Can you please show me scripture to support the possibility of one "putting their disease under the blood" ?
If we are born again children of the living God sealed and indwelled BY HIS Holy Spirit; Our very being is under the blood. We do not live with somethings "under" the blood and some not.
We put our very being under the blood the day we believed! There is not one scripture in the Bible that tells the Bride/ Church of God to put anything under the blood. We are NEW CReatures BORN of GOD NOW who occupy mortal dying bodies because we put our sins under the blood the day we believed!!!!!!!!!!!
You cling to the old man and the old nature and the sin in the flesh with this garbage and you dont even know it! And the devil laughs, you give him more power than he has on his own and he does laugh!
The church/bride is a heavenly creature not a bound earthy one. We suffer all things earthy and yet we are well; because we are not of the earth!!!!!!!!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
III. Healing in the New Testament: the
Apostles and Christians
A. The Apostles
1. The Apostles were at some times commissioned
to heal
a. Matthew 10:1, 8, Mark 6:13: they were
given authority by Jesus during His
ministry to go out and heal
b. This was part of His ministry and His
purposes, as listed above
2. Let us examine the Apostles' ability to heal
after the death of Jesus
3. Acts 3
a. vv. 1-10: Peter and John heal a man in
the Temple
b. vv. 11-26: Peter uses the occasion to
preach the Gospel
c. Acts 4:4: on account of this, 5000 men
believed!
4. Acts 9:32-35
a. Peter comes upon one Aeneas in Lydda
and heals him
b. Those in Lydda and Sharon (a neighboring
town) saw him and turned to the Lord!
5. Acts 28:7-10
a. Paul is able to heal some on Malta and for
this Paul and his entourage were honored
greatly
6. We see, therefore, that the Apostles' healing
was directly tied to their evangelistic
efforts
7. People saw the healings, as others had seen
other signs and wonders (Acts 2:43), and
believed the Apostles regarding the Christ
8. The Apostles' healing, therefore, was done
to establish and confirm their message about
Jesus Christ as the truth, and to give an
opportunity for evangelism
9. It was not done by all Apostles at every
opportunity, nor does it seem to overall
be of assistance to those in the faith!
a. Philippians 2:25-27: Epaphroditus was ill,
and this grieved the Philippians and Paul,
but God had mercy on him and healed him,
not Paul or anyone else
b. 2 Timothy 4:20: Why would Paul leave
Trophimus sick at Miletus if he could
heal him and thus gain a traveling
companion in his time of need?
10. We can see, therefore, that the Apostles
were able to heal at the direction of the
Spirit, most often to demonstrate authority
for their message and to soften the hearts
of those hearing
11. Their lack of healing of their own
companions, however, demonstrates that their
ability to heal was not universal but was
directed for certain purposes
12. What about other Christians?
B. Christians in the New Testament period
1. We are given some information in regards to
the abilities of Christians in the New
Testament period and healing
2. Mark 16:17
a. One of the signs of those who believe
is the ability to heal
b. these signs, overall, concord to many
of the actions of the Apostles in the
first century, but may not be limited
to them alone
3. 1 Corinthians 12:9
a. the Holy Spirit obviously gave to some
persons at some times the ability to heal
b. note the other dispensations of the Spirit
in this chapter: miracles, spirit
discernment, speaking in tongues,
interpretation, prophecy
4. James 5:14-16
a. James establishes that those who are sick
are to call for the elders who will come,
anoint them with oil, and pray for them
b. no indication here of special dispensation
for healing
c. Are we to do this today?
d. If we desired, we could have the elders
anoint the sick of the congregation with
oil in the name of the Lord
e. The power, however, is manifestly in the
prayer, as vv. 15-18 attest
f. Oil at that time was prized for its
cleansing and was believed to be able to
help cleanse the ill of their infirmity
g. We can, therefore, anoint, but it is not
necessary
5. We see, therefore, that in some places
Christians are said to have healing powers,
but not in others
6. How can we then reconcile these passages?
7. When we examine Mark 16 and 1 Corinthians
12, they speak of signs and other
miraculous events that were used to
confirm the words spoken
8. We see historically and according to 1
Corinthians 13:8-10 that such would cease,
and such did manifestly at the end of the
first century
C. When we examine the healing works of the
Apostles and the couple of passages in reference
to Christians in the first century, we see that
healing was done to confirm and establish the
Word spoken and also to give opportunity to
evangelize
D. Healing also was a dispensation of the Spirit
that correlated with speaking in tongues,
prophecy, and other such things that were used
to establish and confirm the Word of God before
the completion of all revelation
E. No such supernatural events-- speaking
in tongues, prophecy, miracles, signs, wonders,
and healings-- are heard of in regards to
confirming the Word after 175 CE
F. Therefore, we can conclude that the predictions
of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 have come true,
that the revelation is complete and all signs and
wonders-- including healing-- that were used to
verify and confirm that Word are not present and
not necessary
G. Let us complete our study, therefore, by seeing
the nature of healing today and what some
denominations do as "healing"
IV. Healing Today
A. What kind of healing, then, exists today?
B. Healing from God directly
1. In James 5:14-16, we saw that the prayers of
the righteous can lead to God healing a person
2. It is entirely possible, therefore, for God
to heal someone today supernaturally by His
sovereign will
3. Many times doctors and scientists will be at
a loss to explain how some people become well,
and the reason may be in some circumstances
that God has healed them
4. We shall find, however, no direct, physical,
empirical evidence for this
C. Healing through Medicine
1. It is also possible that God uses doctors,
nurses, and modern medicine to help heal people
2. When we pray for people to be well, it may be
that God accomplishes that end through medical
professionals
D. These are the types of healing that we find today
1. Note all come from the hand of God
2. None are the direct work of any man
V. Denominations and Healing
A. There are some denominations, especially in
the Pentecostal/Charismatic heritage, who believe
in "faith healers" today
1. Some of these same peoples perform snake
handling, as in Mark 16:17
2. Some have died from these activities
3. We see them especially on the television--
the "televangelists" like Benny Hinn and others
4. Are they actually healing people?
B. The difficulty with the claims of such persons is
that few, if any, cases exist with verifiable
supernatural healing
1. There perhaps will be some who will get better
from their illness because they believe that
they are healthy-- the "placebo effect"
2. There are many who never had a problem at all
but only believed that they did
3. And many are deceived into thinking that
they have been healed and they have not
C. It is a travesty that many of these "faith
healers" will say that they heal people, and if
people are not healed, the fault is not theirs but
instead rests with the sick person: "they
obviously did not have enough faith"
1. How dare they!
2. These types of people are most often shams,
and it is despicable that people lose their
faith and reject God because of such persons
having deceived them and then blamed them for
the problem
D. As we have seen, the miraculous works of the first
century have not been replicated since, and the
signs and wonders once performed are no longer
for us
E. Unfortunately many people get caught up in the
emotion and frenzy of these types of assemblies
and believe on that basis alone
F. Let us continue to hold to the standard of the
Word of God
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Unbelievable!!!! White Eagle, you have NO Idea the HARM you are doing! Please Stop it!
Your words imply that Betty does not have enough faith or does not know God... how Arrogant is that? We have been through and through this argument on healing and faith... God does not always choose to heal everyone - for HIS Own Reasons. PLEASE stop tearing down others who are ill when you DON'T know God's reasons in their lives. You are doing GREAT HARM to them!
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
Betty,
This is how one looks at this problem in the Natural. What I mean, is that this World judges and condemmns us by our actions and our failings or by our weaknesses. You are attributing the attributes of the World to Christians.
While I can't say that some people who are Christians don't do what you fear, I would say they are not walking in God's Love and mercy.
What is am saying is that Christians that know deliverance personally and have seen healings and know God's Love to us will NOT be Judging you.
This is your own projection onto me and others who can see your hurt and offer encouragement.
All I see in you is a hurting person that needs more of God. We all need more of God in our life.
I need more of God, so don't get all insulted.
What do you get insulted anyway? Are you perfect? or do you think you are perfect?
I believe God is dealing with you in this area and He can help you and you can by faith put all your diseases under the Blood and give it to Him.
God bless.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
AMEN Betty and Linda! Those are Awsome Testimonies - PRAISE GOD!!! Thank you for sharing those things with us!
God Bless you both ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Exactly Betty! It is like those cute signs that you see that say "bloom where you are planted".
Dont think that I dont whine or complain it hurts and dont think that I dont stand at the door of the store gazing at my car in the parkinglot and have to say God your gonna have to get me there cause I dont know how I am gonna get myself there; and dont think that I dont get mad because this brain still likes to hike and to play ball and to run down the beach and the mind is willing and the flesh weak in that regard! BUT none of that changes US, who we are in HIM and WHo HE is in us and NONE of that is bigger than the PEACE and JOY of the Holy SPirit and HIS mercies are new every morning.
My husband ... he is amazing because he never ever complains about anything. Never. I dont care how tired he is or how much he might hurt or how much he has on his plate in a day and sometimes it is a lot. He stayed up and drove all night almost 500 miles home the other day to make my grandson's birthday party at 10:00 Am, and he had worked 12 hours that day to boot. Never a word not a single word of complaint. I long to be like that. When I ask him how he does that, he tells me a story of someone he knows who like you ... goes to church walkng with a cane in the snow... or he reminds me of the daughter of a friend of ours who is a a parapeledgic and always has a smile on her face and a kind word to say because she is filled with the Holy Ghost and he tells me that he feels that he has no cause or right to complain... you just never know how you witness to someone else. Those women witness to my husband and the Holy SPirit uses that to work in HIM fruit and to make him more like Jesus than I ever think I will be.
God uses you too Betty!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Linda,
God bless you for your positive outlook. You know God can indeed use our suffering for His good. I had someone say to me, that they almost missed Church that night but when she thought about how faithful I was even though I was having a hard time getting around that winter, she came anyway. I am not saying that to pat my self on my back for being faithful, but it felt good that I could inspire someone else to be faithful to God. Today I walked a mile and half. It took 30 minutes with me walking with my cane, but I listen and sang with my praise and worship music. I felt exhausted and moved quite slowly to the car, but my heart was overwhelmed by the love I felt from God. We have been going to the Y for 3 months and I am slowly working my way up on distance with my walking. If my walking in to Church with my cane, is used only to inspire others to be faithful to God, then I am willing to be used by God for that purpose. I understand where you are coming from about the pain. It can be exhausting being in pain for days at a time. But God does indeed help us. God bless you Linda, and know that you are an inspiration to all of us here. You are a blessing to everyone you touch.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
Yes, I agree with your explanation of 'the thorn' Linda.
IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I am not sure that we see the thorn in the flesh the same way? I see that when Paul spoke of a thorn in the flesh it was something that kept him grounded.
I think that the more we become free in Christ, there is a danger of becoming prideful. I think that you can get to the place where you are just not bothered by the things of this world and you can be so heavenly focused that you are of no earthly good (someone said that and I like it for this point that I want to make) You can start to think more highly of yourself than you ought and that is SIN with a capital SSSSSSSSSS.
I see that Paul's thorn, was something he could not remove, and it was something that he prayed to God to remove and God said NO. Paul said it was a messenger of the enemy to buffet him... to PUNCH HIM. TO say SIN still lives in your flesh; You are still IN the earth.
I have since a child had Reumatoid Arthritis. It is a genetic disease, it is degenerative, it is progressively degenerative, today it is believed to be a kind of autoimmune problem and I have two other health issues that are also auto immune problems. My arthritis has been asymptomatic for more than 30 years. In fact even when it did give me occasional pain I did not think of it as arthritis. One day I told my husband, ughhh I dont know why but I can hardly move today. I have no idea why! He looked at me kind like "Well Hello! It is cold outside and you have arthritis." I had to laugh at myself, I dont think about having arthritis. In the past year, it has been getting seriously painful. I see these conditions as thorns.
I know that God could take them all from me in a second if he so desired and yet he does not. I no longer pray for him to take them.
I am well in spite of all that the enemy can send against my body and there are days that I cannot on my own stand and there are days that the pain is without end... burning seering pain that does not cease and brings tears to your eyes, but the enemy cannot steal my joy or my peace and if today I cant go out because I cant walk to my car oh well. Today I will stay home and praise HIM for giving me this day. CHRIST is OUR JOY and OUR PEACE!
I was driving to work today; I had to do do some work for my husband and today was a great day. I felt really good physically - recently the change of seasons has been hard... the cold weather gets in your bones, and I was thinking about this thorn thing and our conversations and I realized that if everyday was like today You would have to tie me down to keep me here mentally. Paul had seen heaven, I can see where staying here could be a problem. I see that a thorn in the flesh keeps us from thinking that we are invincible and reminds us that GOD ALONE is in control and we do live in a body with sin and this body is dying. Even that reminds me of what HE has done for me because I was once dying.. now only my mortal body is.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The scriptures in Duteronomy used to be my Siggy here for a couple of years. I love them, but those were given to the Israelites living under the law... they are about choices that we make in the day to day and in the body... this is exactly what I was refering to when I spoke of things that we do in the body that keep us from experiencing the best that we could experience in the body. Eating things we should not etc. If I chose I can do things that will make this life worse than it need be. I agree.
I fear though that you speak of apples and I oranges. We have something that the Israelites did not have. We have life from above in this life. I is lived in the body that is bound to the earth, but it allows us to rise above that which is bound to the earth. To have peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost even though the body is sick, even if we are imprisioned, even while being burned at the stake, even when all our hair falls out and we dont have the strength to raise ourselves from the bed, even when our joints hurt so bad that our leg muscles tremble with lack of strength to hold up oour torso and the pain is seering red hot pain that seems to be without end.
Upon reading more deeply into Deut 30 you will see that it is not just talking about the body, but the mores of their day.
Deut.30:15-20 "Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between prosperity and disaster, between life and death. have commanded you today to love the LORD your God and to keep his commands, laws, and regulations by walking in his ways. If you do this, you will live and become a great nation, and the LORD your God will bless you and the land you are about to enter and occupy.
But if your heart turns away and you refuse to listen, and if you are drawn away to serve and worship other gods, then I warn you now that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live a long, good life in the land you are crossing the Jordan to occupy.
"Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live! Choose to love the LORD your God and to obey him and commit yourself to him, for he is your life. Then you will live long in the land the LORD swore to give your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
~You say that we are no longer under generational laws, but I am emphasizing that it is only through Jesus that we are not under these laws - we have to make a choice.
quote:
From HG -Does your flesh never run off onto the ditch. I know I have to constantly guard my heart from running onto the ditch. As long as we are in these fleshly bodies, we will have to constantly struggle against pride, resentment etc. It is all part of the sanctification process.
From HFHS -The mind of my flesh does get the upper hand at times. I might get angry and run my mouth and say ugly things. Not very often, but it does happen. But I do not struggle with my flesh. When I sin, I confess and I move on. To me struggle occurs when the mind of your flesh wants to do one thing and the mind of your spirit another. I find that less and less this is the case. I have learned that the flesh is always going to want what is contrary to the spirit and I have found that if we do not mind (pay attention to- think on - give a hoot) about the things that the flesh wants and keep our minds on the spirit then there is little struggle.
I agree when people say that sexual sin is a perversion against your own bodies, but we have to uproot all sin in the same manner, through the blood of Christ. Sexual sin can be a very obvious problem in one's life, and often right on the surface. A spirit of resentment that may be deep within our inner being and something we are not even aware of, may affect our health.
For those who have a weakness towards sexual sin, or addictions, they have a thorn in their flesh and may not know the cause for a number years.
quote:
To me.. for me... all this focus on physical healing is a setting of the mind on the flesh. If the mind is on the flesh, it is not on the spirit. If it is on the spirit there is no struggle.
Or at least, less of a struggle, but people have to be made aware of this.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Kurt
First Post
Member # 5193
Icon 1 posted October 26, 2005 02:07 PM Profile for Kurt Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Hello,
I noticed that alot of people on here are talking about the rapture. Many of you have given the link to Rapture Ready. I would like to suggest a link as well that gives the other side of the rapture debate. I think we should review both sides. As for me I am still researching but there does seem to be some problems with the rapture. Just some food for thought.
www.rapturerebuttal.com Posts: 1 | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is some dialogue on the Rapture, in the Bible Topics forum:
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004066
I am sure that you can post ALL of your concerns in that current thread and you will have many responses. It has been debated time and again.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Kurt
New Member
Member # 5193
|
posted
Hello,
I noticed that alot of people on here are talking about the rapture. Many of you have given the link to Rapture Ready. I would like to suggest a link as well that gives the other side of the rapture debate. I think we should review both sides. As for me I am still researching but there does seem to be some problems with the rapture. Just some food for thought.
www.rapturerebuttal.com
Posts: 3 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
I had to chuckle at your Dizzy comment, that was how I felt trying to keep up with you guys last night.
I think that we see this walk very differently and also what is ours as part of our redemption.
We could go in circles with some of this stuff and there is no point.
The scriptures in Duteronomy used to be my Siggy here for a couple of years. I love them, but those were given to the Israelites living under the law... they are about choices that we make in the day to day and in the body... this is exactly what I was refering to when I spoke of things that we do in the body that keep us from experiencing the best that we could experience in the body. Eating things we should not etc. If I chose I can do things that will make this life worse than it need be. I agree.
I fear though that you speak of apples and I oranges. We have something that the Israelites did not have. We have life from above in this life. I is lived in the body that is bound to the earth, but it allows us to rise above that which is bound to the earth. To have peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost even though the body is sick, even if we are imprisioned, even while being burned at the stake, even when all our hair falls out and we dont have the strength to raise ourselves from the bed, even when our joints hurt so bad that our leg muscles tremble with lack of strength to hold up oour torso and the pain is seering red hot pain that seems to be without end.
I just wanted to answer what was a question in your last post:
quote:
Does your flesh never run off onto the ditch. I know I have to constantly guard my heart from running onto the ditch. As long as we are in these fleshly bodies, we will have to constantly struggle against pride, resentment etc. It is all part of the sanctification process.
The mind of my flesh does get the upper hand at times. I might get angry and run my mouth and say ugly things. Not very often, but it does happen. But I do not struggle with my flesh. When I sin, I confess and I move on. To me struggle occurs when the mind of your flesh wants to do one thing and the mind of your spirit another. I find that less and less this is the case. I have learned that the flesh is always going to want what is contrary to the spirit and I have found that if we do not mind (pay attention to- think on - give a hoot) about the things that the flesh wants and keep our minds on the spirit then there is little struggle.
There are few things that I once struggled with that I struggle with today. I dont desire to do much that was once sin to me; God has taken the desire. The things that would cause struggle I dont go there. Like not visiting old neighborhoods. Do you know what I mean? I used to struggle with control, today I know I have no control over anything except HOW I respspond to things. That is the only real choice I have - to walk in spirit or flesh. I used to struggle with authority, I dont struggle with authority today BY HIS power not mine If I disagree with authority in my life I state my case and I submit agree or not. I used to struggle with sexual sin. I have no desire to sin sexually any more... its just not a temptation. I used to battle with power issues; I have no desire today for any kind of power. I used to when I was young steal. I have no desire what so ever to have any other person's stuff. I am content with what I have. I used to struggle with lying in my youth. I have no desire to lie today. Today my battles are more with frustrations of the limitations of my humanity... For example. My oldest daughter you know and I have shared is really in a bad place, She is very carnal and claims to be a Christian. I struggle because I cant impart to her things that the spirit has taught me; I have to wait for the spirit to work in her and I become frustrated and it comes out in yelling at her or saying things like... when are you gonna get this? That is where I have to guard my heart.
I used to think of sanctification as our becoming more HOLY; today I understand that we are wholly sanctified now and we are Wholly HOLY now because HE is and sanctification is learning to sanctify HIM in our hearts and as we do this BY his power because even that we can not will ourselves to do, We become more like Jesus and less like Adam - sanctification is our learning to DIE that HE lives in us.
The deeds of the flesh are mortified as our minds are renewed and washed in the word that our human minds become more and more like the minds of our spirit life which is the sound mind of Christ.
If I determine that I am no longer from this day forward going to do (Blank) I am going to fail because the flesh is weak. I have to determin that I am going to rest in HIM. He will do HIS part, my part is to die and let him live. He does not sin or lie or struggle with the flesh.
To me... for me... all this focus on physical healing is a setting of the mind on the flesh. If the mind is on the flesh, it is not on the spirit. If it is on the spirit there is no struggle.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
May the Lord continue to guide with his peaceful protection Betty. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Whew! I cant keep up with you ladies!
I think that I am done in this thread; no sense beating a dead horse on the things that we do not agree on. Just a couple of things I have to comment on.
Since it seems as if the horse has laid down, but is still kicking, I would like to respond to your comments that responded to my comments. I think we making ourselves dizzy. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
quote:
His Grace:
Roman's 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
quote:I think we both would have to agree with that statement. Also sins can pass from one generation to the next.
From HFHS -No we dont agree. Under the Law, God visted the sins of the Father on the sunsequent generations. We are not under law. The end of this passing of the sins of the father to the son was prophesied in Ezekiel.
What statment? - something is missing here Linda. Romans 8:8 was in response to something you had said. I had moved on to another statement since then, which isn't showing in your quote.
Anyway, in response to sins passing down through generations. You said that we are no longer under the law, but I would like to say that law can only be bound through the saving blood of Jesus. We have to accept it personally into our own lives.
quote:
From HG - Often sin is referred to as a spiritual death in the Bible.
From Linda -Can you show me these often references?
I only find death of the body; destruction of the soul. I do not find death of the spirit anywhere nor do I find that death of the body or destruction of the soul is spiritual.
Notice I said 'spiritual' not Spirit. The soul is also a spiritual side of us.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Romans 5:21
So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
quote:
From HG -We always have to be constantly reminding ourselves of the necessity of keeping in the centre of God's will.
From HFHS -See I dont think that we have to be constantly reminding ourselves to keep in the center of HIS will. I think that we are kept in HIS will by the Holy Spirit, when we mind the things of the Spirit, walk in the Spirit. I also do not think that we need struggle with the flesh.
Does your flesh never run off onto the ditch. I know I have to constantly guard my heart from running onto the ditch. As long as we are in these fleshly bodies, we will have to constantly struggle against pride, resentment etc. It is all part of the sanctification process.
Proverbs 4:23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
HisGrace,
God bless you and thanks for the hug. I must admit there are times, when the pain is bad and at times, hubby has to help me walk for my first few steps after sitting for a long period, but God has given me peace. I know His love substains me. One weird thing, I have always been a very nervous person, but my family has made comments about how since I first started getting ill back in 1994, I have become more calm and relaxed. It was almost like from day one God has given me a peace that He will be with me.
I have never felt I was fighting a losing battle but walking a journey with Jesus by my side. Oh, I am not perfect and when I have a couple of bad days in a row, I get get cranky, but God is so good to me.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
|
posted
Whew! I cant keep up with you ladies!
I think that I am done in this thread; no sense beating a dead horse on the things that we do not agree on. Just a couple of things I have to comment on.
If you are a new creature in Christ born again of God, you no longer live, but Christ lives in you, then you are free of generational curses.
We are positioned NOW in heaven.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
On the sins of the Father passing to the son etc..
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.
Generational Curses were under the Law and the church is not under the Law.
White Eagle this was the scripture I was refering to on the image of Jesus...
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
An image is a likeness.
You said Jesus was born without genes of man.. I am notsure if you mean an earthly father or if you mean human genes.
Jesus was the seed of the woman and Jesus had Mary's genes; He did not have have an earthly father he was genetically the seed of the woman and begotten BY the Holy Spirit.
Yes of Course HE was genetically without sin; sinless blood, sinless flesh, sinless nature. Image of sinful flesh.
Had no sin in HIM; Did no sin.
I dont believe that we chose Christ; the scripture says he chooses us. I do not believe in free will to chose God.
quote:
If as a Christian we are crippled emotionally, physically, or mentally, we will not be able to sow to the Kingdom of God or be able to witness to others as Satan will have made us ineffective to God's Kingdom.
That is the point, perhaps the healing of the mortal body is temporal, but the effects of it can be eternal, if just one person believes in God due to our changed life and healing.
Part of our rebirth, is a sound mind, and the mind of Christ. I was thinking on this yesterday and the way you feel about physical healing I feel about mental healing. The Body is part that we will leave here and since God alone determins when that will happen, physical healing or the lack there of is immmaterial to me. His grace is sufficient in the presence of physical illness. But our mind is part of the living soul and I believe that mental illness is opression of the enemy that we are free from by the rebirth. I believe that in this life we may have to endure physical limitations, but I believe that mental health is ours lock stock and barrel part of our salvation.
I do not speak of someone who is by physical injury or deformity limited mentally. That is a physical problem of the mortal body not the Mental illness.
His Grace:
Roman's 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
quote:
I think we both would have to agree with that statement. Also sins can pass from one generation to the next.
No we dont agree. Under the Law, God visted the sins of the Father on the sunsequent generations. We are not under law. The end of this passing of the sins of the father to the son was prophesied in Ezekiel.
quote:
Often sin is referred to as a spiritual death in the Bible.
Can you show me these often references?
I only find death of the body; destruction of the soul. I do not find death of the spirit anywhere nor do I find that death of the body or destruction of the soul is spiritual.
quote:
We always have to be constantly reminding ourselves of the necessity of keeping in the centre of God's will.
See I dont think that we have to be constantly reminding ourselves to keep in the center of HIS will. I think that we are kept in HIS will by the Holy Spirit, when we mind the things of the Spirit, walk in the Spirit. I also do not think that we need struggle with the flesh.
Well, ladies this has been intersting but I am retiring from this thread. I guess that in some regards there will not be unity among us before HE returns.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
Sister SoftTouch, that article of letusreason was a good one. Thanks for sharing that. Jesus has redeemed us from the curse.
Amen to that. God bless. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
I had mentioned that my Preacher’s wife in Houston suffers from MD. She has two daughters. One is also a Preacher’s wife and a principal of local school. She has always been devoted to God, her family and to her Church. The other daughter while a sweet lady, has been more involved with self issues and attends Church only on major Holidays. The one who is the Preacher’s wife inherited the MD, the other one did not. We can look at both girls and wonder why God allowed this to happen, but the truth only God knows His ways.
In my own family, the disease was harder on me and my grandmother than my mom and my sister. My grandmother was the sweetest woman I have ever known and she endured the disease with grace and humility, I pray that I can do so as well.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Amen Sister Betty! But the only thing that really matters is what God thinks of us ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
A big 'Amen' from this pew also -
2 Cor.12:9 So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may work through me.
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
Amen Sister Betty! But the only thing that really matters is what God thinks of us
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
I am sure there is not one person on this Board whose family, or have personal friends whose family, have not been touched by some sort of handicap, be it physical, chemical imbalance, or cognitive. I have tried to make it clear that I don't believe it is always sin that has made someone handicapped.
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
Christians are not under Generational Curses or any other Curse.
The following is a ‘snippet’ of a very good article on Christians and Curses. It’s a long one though, so I’m only posting this part of it.
"Everyone at one time or another because of circumstances that seemed so bad probably had the thought run through their mind, “am I cursed.” If you listen to some of the popular teachers today it just may reinforce this false thought. With all the books and teachings on Generational Curses, familiar spirits, family curses, that hinder the work of God in a region or country, or ones own family. One wonders how anyone can survive this onslaught of the enemy from the past. Generational repentance is taught as the method needed to break these curses, spiritual mapping is used to target the strongholds the enemy has had in the family along with a host of other non-biblical teachings. Even people who are poor need to break the curse of poverty, because it is blamed on a curse placed on your family finances somewhere in the past. If poverty is always a curse, then we have a whole continent(s) that is cursed. Furthermore, we must admit the apostles had a curse, because they were poor. They say so themselves (1 Corinthians 4:11-12; Acts 3:6). Jesus asked the rich man to give away his goods to the poor (Mark 10:21-22). We do not see him break a curse of poverty for people who are poor, in fact the Bible says the poor are rich in faith (James 2:5), which is what is needed to be pleasing to God. In the beginning of the Church the apostles received a large amount of goods and money which they distributed “according to each person’s need” (Acts 2:45). Romans 15:26: “For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.” When Paul took money from one church to help another, he had nothing to say about a curse of poverty. Why do some people read into Scripture what is not there? I could go on and on and cite many more examples to see the silliness of this teaching, but this should be sufficient to see it is correct.
It is not my intention to address any specific teachers philosophy on this subject but in general look at the common teaching shared by them all. Today, the teaching of curses it has been popularized by Neil Anderson, Joyce Meyers, Marilyn Hickey, Larry Huch, Benny Hinn, Cleansing Streams and many more. You will find that 90% of their teaching on curses is from the Old Testament, Why? Because you cannot justify this teaching by New Testament! There are some who have written books and devoted their whole ministry to taking care of a curse that is not mentioned in the New Testament.
In the New Testament, in Jesus’ ministry He cursed only one thing-- the fig tree, saying, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again,” and the fig tree withered (Mt. 21:19; Mark 11:14).
He also spoke about curses from people. In the only reference in the New Testament where He tells us what to do if someone cursed us, Jesus said, “Bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you” (Luke 6:28). He did not give us fancy methods, or special words on how to break curses. He taught the believers specifically how to deal with curses without any superstitious teachings that would bring fear of an evil that would occur to them. BLESS THEM. In other words-- do good to them by your actions; try to reach them. Jesus did not give a supernatural spiritual solution but a very practical one-- do what they would have done by someone who is their friend and cares for them.
Why do these teachers disregard Jesus’ own words of what we are to do if people curse us? They produce a false teaching that leads you away from the simplicity in Christ.
People a who are very zealous and intend on purging themselves to reach a higher degree of sanctification are susceptible to these type of teachings. They desire to be purified from all the things of the Devil, so they go on this journey of discovery to release themselves of anything that would block this freedom. Eventually one can find a curse behind every problem they have. Just like those in deliverance ministries blame nearly everything that goes wrong on Demonic activity. Something goes wrong and immediately you think its the outworking of some curse. This becomes a very unkind teaching that actually punishes those who are going through fiery trials. Any, hurtful, negative or critical word spoken can become a curse on your life. What a way to live. It’s like avoiding the cracks in the sidewalk.
There are only a few times the word curse, curses or cursed occurs in the New Testament. The word curses is found only once in the New Testament and it is referring to an Old Testament law (Exodus 21:17; Leviticus 20:9). In Mark 7:8-13 (also Matthew 15:3-5) Jesus said to the Pharisees who neglected their family feigning their dedication for the things of God, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother;’ and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban” (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” At this time they were still under the law which punishment was death, as Jesus reminded them to show that they were not obeying the law.
Jesus taught, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you” (Matthew 5:43-44). Paul repeats this to the church in Romans 12:14-15: “Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.”
James speaking on the right use of our tongue, he explains, (3:9-10) “With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God.” James is not making a connection between what is spoken about someone and these words actually manufacturing a problem in someone’s life. James is addressing our attitude toward our fellow man; he is simply saying that if we are still cursing (speaking ill) and this is not conducive to the new creation in the believer’s life, he may even be referring to what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. We are to have respect for people because everyone is made in God’s image. There is a difference between the damage that words do to a person, hurting them emotionally, to injure or sever a relationship and having a curse come upon them that will affect their life and others afterwards. To those trained in word-faith theology this idea of being cursed by words is only an outworking of their false premise on speaking faith. So if enough negative words are spoken (heard or not) you have cast a lasting curse that affects another persons life. Take for example Peter who cursed and denied Jesus during his trial and said he did not know him (Mk14:71). If a curse had the power that many attribute to them then what would have become of Peter? It was Jesus himself who restored Peter.
What did the apostles teach concerning generational curses? Nothing! Not once do we see the apostles warn the church about any problem could be traced to curse from their far past. Can we find a Scripture that tells us how to identify generational curses and its affect in our lives? No. This teaching is extra biblical revelation and an addition to the power of the Gospel to set one free. If one begins a discovery course of finding out their ailment or problem caused by a curse they certainly can be overwhelmed. It certainly can rob you of the peace that Christ wants you to have. If you allow yourself to receive this teaching, it you will bring you into its bondage.
The closest concept we have of something being cursed in the New Testament is by the word anathema. Which means a thing devoted to destruction- the judgment of God will be exercised on it. The apostle Paul said one is accursed if they preach a false gospel (Gal. 1:8-9). It is an anathema- this excommunicates a thing or a person (Rom.1:9) to eternal destruction.
Paul also addresses a “curse,” in a twofold way by stating if you go back under the law you are cursed. Gal. 3:10: “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
“Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” (Gal 3:13).
You can read the full article here: http://www.letusreason.org/Wf47.htm
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
Not to worry.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Comparing an illness which a person has no control of to a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle is insulting to anyone who has an illness. Illness is NOT sin. A person who has inherited an illness did not make a choice to become ill. This is a new low for this thread.
betty
Please don't get upset by personally taking every post you see on healing as a target against you, Sister Betty. Your illness is a private matter between you and God, and obviously you at peace with His answer.
There are many different scenarious, and just as many reasons for healing, or not healing. Every case is different.
Luke 13:32 mentions demons and healing in the same sentence. The reality is Jesus said these words himself and we can't erase them from the Bible. If I happen to quote such a scripture, that doesn't mean I am intending it for you personally or anyone else on this Board.
Luke 13:32 Jesus replied. "Go tell that fox that I will keep on casting out demons and doing miracles of healing today and tomorrow; and the third day I will accomplish my purpose.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
BA
"The LORD blesses those who seek Him early, but He sets obstacles in the way of the wicked and on the day of the LORD will totally dominate the earth from the land of Israel."
I don't understand your point. I got saved at the age of 7. So did I inherit this disease because I did not get saved a year, earlier?
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
Linda I agree we really don't disagree over that much and most of it is sematics of words.
1-On choice:
Even the unsaved have a choice and that choice is to accept or reject Christ. God created all of us with freewill.
On Adam being created in God's image: I see that you have made a distinction about this.
You seem to believe that Adam before sin looked different then the Adam after sin, and that the rest of us are not created in God's image but Adam's image only.
I believe we are still made in the image of God, though faulty through the Fall. Spiritually we are not able to have communion with God until we are saved, and it's still not as intimate as Adam's communion with God was.
When God told Adam he would die, the text actually says "Dying you will die".
Adam's body began dying that very day physically as sin began to have it's way. Spiritually Adam died at that moment and ceased to be able to have communion with God, and animal sacrifice for sin had to be made for any intimacy with God and for forgiveness of sins.
2-Satan gaining ground
This is a spiritual concept. When we agree to sin, then satan has more power in our life, to torment, to hurt, and we also will reap what we sow. Conversely when we agree with God and His Word will be overcome in the spirit through Christ's power and authority. Satan also will can ground when we allow him to assault our minds with lies and then accept those lies. Example: "lies that say we are condemmed, when we are really saved."
3- You say; "I believe my body is dead now."
I say, that, I have Christ in me, the hope of Glory. I struggle to put my body's wants and desires into subjection daily as Paul writes about. Sometimes I walk in the Spirit and sometimes I do walk in the flesh. It's only through the power of the Holy Spirit that I can walk in the Spirit. My body is alive and kicking and it's a daily struggle to die to self.
4-You say: "I believe that healing of the mortal body is immaterial to the church."
Your reasoning is basically: My paraphasing; " Since we are new creatures in Christ spiritually, will inherit an incorruptible body, that what happens to our mortal body is on no importance, since we will be worm food."
Here I obviously disagree with you. Why? When we inherit our incorruptble body or after we die and will be with Christ, our work on earth will have ceased. We will not be able to do anything more to bring more people into God's Kingdom after we have died.
If as a Christian we are crippled emotionally, physically, or mentally, we will not be able to sow to the Kingdom of God or be able to witness to others as Satan will have made us ineffective to God's Kingdom.
That is the point, perhaps the healing of the mortal body is temporal, but the effects of it can be eternal, if just one person believes in God due to our changed life and healing.
I heartily disagree with this statement:
"Do you think that Adam before the fall looked like you and me and Jesus? I don't. We are told that Jesus came in the image of sinful flesh."
Jesus did come in the flesh when He was born of a virgin. Jesus had no seed of man within Him, so His flesh was not sinful. That's the beauty of it.
As you states sin is passed down through men. Jesus' Father is God Almighty. Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born without the genes of men. Flesh is sinful through our father Adam. Flesh was not created to be sinful originally. Jesus is our Kinsman Redeemer.
I believe Adam looked better than we do, He was good and we have rather devolved since that time, but yes I believe Adam looked much as we do, only enhanced and more perfect in all ways, before the fall.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
I am not saying that at all, but sometimes we have to pray for those curses to be rebuked and bound in the name of Jesus.
That just doesn't make any sense... When you are Covered by the Blood of Jesus, you are no longer under any curse from God.
While we are alive in human form we are all under the curse of sin in this life. generational curses are established by Adam and Eve, as sin entered the world through their actions. All generations inherited this.
Yes the Blood of Christ washes our sins away, but Paul writes that we will still struggle with the flesh.
We can be born again and saved from our sins and still suffer from generational curses. That's why Peter writes for us to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling, and why Paul writes that we are new creatures by the renewing of our minds.
It's a process of Sanctification. We are becoming more like Christ, but it doens't happen instantly.
We can only walk in the Truth we know and have inside our hearts.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Comparing an illness which a person has no control of to a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle is insulting to anyone who has an illness. Illness is NOT sin. A person who has inherited an illness did not make a choice to become ill. This is a new low for this thread.
betty
I'm sorry you are insulted. We are all in the same boat.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Which raises the question, Is it more difficult to get healed now from the written Word than it was in Jesus's day when they were looking at the Living Word?
The Living Word healed everyone who came to Him. But fewer are being healed from the written Word, unless one were to count the healed persons over the centuries compared to the number the Living Word healed in His 3-1/2 years of ministry.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Jesus is still the Living Word; Christ in you the hope of Glory.
I think the problem is that today we don't fully grasp that promise and truth. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is the Word become flesh. He is the Living Word today.
Many denominations look at the Bible as truth, but apply it like it was history. not truth to be applied for today.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
I've just been reading in the Old Testament that the LORD has absolute control over everything.
The LORD will not hesitate to bring evil upon those who reject Him and upon the heathen later on the day of the LORD when the LORD will take control of the earth.
The LORD blesses those who seek Him early, but He sets obstacles in the way of the wicked and on the day of the LORD will totally dominate the earth from the land of Israel.
The LORD does create evil and good. But illness probably comes from our energy-depleted sin nature. Where the fullness of the Lord standing before us and we could go to Him, the glory inside of Him could recharge us again, and drive the illness from us.
Which raises the question, Is it more difficult to get healed now from the written Word than it was in Jesus's day when they were looking at the Living Word?
The Living Word healed everyone who came to Him. But fewer are being healed from the written Word, unless one were to count the healed persons over the centuries compared to the number the Living Word healed in His 3-1/2 years of ministry.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Comparing an illness which a person has no control of to a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle is insulting to anyone who has an illness. Illness is NOT sin. A person who has inherited an illness did not make a choice to become ill. This is a new low for this thread.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
When you are Covered by the Blood of Jesus, you are no longer under any curse from God.
Agreed -God never sends curses. How many times have we heard of people who are still enslaved to cigarettes or homosexuality, to name just a couple, after becoming converted. These demons still have to be uprooted; sometimes it takes months.
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
I am not saying that at all, but sometimes we have to pray for those curses to be rebuked and bound in the name of Jesus.
That just doesn't make any sense... When you are Covered by the Blood of Jesus, you are no longer under any curse from God.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
I am not saying that at all, but sometimes we have to pray for those curses to be rebuked and bound in the name of Jesus.
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
As the article said... "How can a child of God be under a Curse from God?"
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:[/b] the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
This is talking about our souls, not curses. We all are responsible for our own salvation.
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
Ezekiel 18
1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die…
Continuing in Exekiel 18:
quote:
18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Christians do not suffer "Generational Curses"
It is a well known fact that cancer and heart disease can pass from one generation to the next.
IP: Logged |
|
|
SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
As Christians we can pray for God to break the family curses on us, as Jesus states we can bind or loose.
Christians do not suffer "Generational Curses"
http://www.gotquestions.org/generational-curses.html
Question: "What does the Bible say about breaking generational curses?"
Answer: The Bible mentions “generational curses” in several places (Exodus 20:5; 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9). It sounds unfair for God to punish children for the sins of their fathers. However, this is looking at it from an earthly perspective. God knows that sin is passed down from one generation to the next. When a father has a sinful lifestyle, his children are likely to have the same sinful lifestyle as well. That is why it is not unjust for God to punish sin to the third or fourth generation – because they are committing the same sins their ancestors did. They are being punished for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. The Bible specifically tells us that God does not hold children accountable for the sins of their parents (Deuteronomy 24:16).
There is a trend in the church today to try and blame every sin and problem on some sort of generational curse. This is not Biblical. The cure for generational curses is salvation through Jesus Christ. When we become Christians, we are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). How can a child of God still be under God’s curse (Romans 8:1)? The cure, then, for a generational curse is faith in Christ and a life consecrated to Him (Romans 12:1-2).
--------------------
Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
I would like to make some comments re your last
post HFHS. You didn't address this person by name, but I will try to sort what comments came from whom.
quote:
We became corrupted in the flesh and now all of us are born with a sin nature called the flesh.
From you HFHS -Sin nature is a "man's" word. Sin nature is not in the Bible. I would say that we are naturally born with sin in our flesh, when we are born in the flesh. We are born to our earthly parents with a human earthy nature and our image is one of sinful flesh.
My response -Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
quote:
Satan gains ground on people when we do sin, and we suffer from the sins of others to us.
From HFHS -hmmm. I am not sure I understand "gains ground" Satan has dominion over the flesh of man as man is servant to sin. In the born again man, Satan has no authority because he is heavenly creature not an earthy one, but when man choses to walk in the flesh and mind the things of the flesh, then man delivers himself over to the one that has dominion over things earthly... Where the mind goes the body follows. Sow to the flesh reap the flesh etc. So, for the born again, Satan has no power as long as we remain in the spirit. But sin is still present in the mortal body and continues to work corruption until the day our spirit separates from the mortal body in what we call death.
From Me - I think you answered your own question HFHS but with different words. As far as suffering "from sins of others to us", I think we both would have to agree with that statement. Also sins can pass from one generation to the next.
Daniel 9:16 O Lord, according to all Your rightness and justice, I beseech You, let Your anger and Your wrath be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. Because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach and a byword to all who are around about us.
From HFHS - Adam died. Men teach that Adam died spiritually, but I challenge you to find that in the Bible.
My Response - Often sin is referred to as a spiritual death in the Bible.
Romans 5:12-17Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to ondemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
quote:
It's a spiritual discipline that come only through the power of Christ. We are being changed by the renewing of our minds. When the mind is healed the body can be healed, both are connected, God made us that way.
From HFHS -There is a mind of the flesh and a mind of the Spirit. When the mind is renewed, we demonstrate the perfect will of God and that will is that we are conformed to the image of Christ. Christ's image is not now the image of sinful flesh or mortal bodies. When the mind is renewed we understand that we are well and have peace, joy and power in the Holy Ghost no matter the condition, state, or place of our mortal bodies.
I dont understand the term "spiritual discipline"
My Response - We always have to be constantly reminding ourselves of the necessity of keeping in the centre of God's will.
Joshua 23:6 "Be very strong; be careful to obey all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
