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Topic: The Rapture Is Not The Second Coming
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reflectingtheson
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Member # 5083
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posted
OK as I have read the post on this thread the thing tha pops out as I see it is comparing God's Wrath to the tribulation. Theyt are not interchangable. Two completely different events.
The tribulation is the attack on the saints due to their steadfast hold on the truth of GOD and running from the lies of satan. As things get worse here on earth because of the birth pangs of the comming redemtion of all things, 'for the earth groans in anticipation', belivers will be blamed for the chaos for not following the ideas of the masses which are lead by the antichrist system.
And when it looks like the days are the darkest for us then that period will be shorten "for the elects sake" and the "Day of the Lord" will be upon the earth, of which I believe will be the removal of the believers (rapture) and the beginning og God's Wrath (seven bowls) which will leave the earth completely destroyed.
From this point I see the believers going w/ Jesus to the new Jeruselam to spend the 1000 years there in that space city learning and comming to terms with who and who do not make it to this glorious city. Meanwhile satan is roaming bound on a desolate earth among the dead and void kingdom he caused.
As far as where are the dead. I believe the bible teaches that the dead sleep and know nothing until resurection which ever one that is before or after the 1000 year period.
After the 1000 yr then the new city comes down to the earth andit will be our Sabbath Day home while the earth will be our weekly abode.
For now this is my thumbnail sketch.
Bandit, I have read the book you recommended and must say it was the beginning of my eye opening to my current belief.
Born Again, Am I understanding you correctly that we are on the same page mostly?
One Year and Counting, Hope to hear from you on this. I think we are mostly on the same page, Yes?
Thanks for reading this,
Rick
Posts: 43 | From: Baton Rouge, LA | Registered: Sep 2005
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Watcher
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posted
Also
I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe there will be a huge number of "carnal Christians" that will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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Watcher
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A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together.
The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night."
I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses.
It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period.
II Peter 3:10-13
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.
Joel 2:11-20
The "Day of the Lord" Joel describes, includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezk. 38 and 39 is parallel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.
John 12:48
In the book of John, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium--yet another 1000 year gap.
Hebrews 10:25
One of the best indications that most of the various “day” references are citing a general time period can be found in Hebrews 10:25: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Surely, Paul would not be warning us to watch for a day that would be coming at the end of the tribulation. That type of logic would be like warning children, as they cross the road, to watch out for tail lights.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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BORN AGAIN
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Actually the Bible seems to say that the house of Israel and the house of Judah, and the strangers/proselytes who have attached themselves to the faith of the LORD, will come up out of their graves in one day.
I would be astonished if the Lord had taken us up at the start of a "7 year period that the Lord starts to deal with Israel", and then have us MISS THIS AMAZING EVENT and leave the viewing of it up to THE WICKED WHO WERE LEFT BEHIND on earth? I don't think so.
Surely the LORD does nothing except that He shows it to His servants.
The LORD is WELL ABLE to keep and protect us from ANYTHING on earth, be it fire, hail, flood, earthquake, whatever, when the day of the LORD comes.
The Bible just calls it a day, the day of the LORD, not the 7 years. The LORD will make a quick end of it, sin shall not rise up a second time.
Like Israel in the land of Goshen we the church of Israel of God will also be protected until the Lord comes with the holy angels and the OT??saints with Him.
And the NT?? dead in Christ will rise first and then we of the church of Israel of God who are alive on earth on that day will be caught up to be with the Lord and receive our glorified bodies.
Then we go wherever the Lord is going, and that is to the mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and He makes a quick work of the heathen and so shall we walk upon the ashes of the wicked but the sun of our righteousness shines forth in the kingdom of the LORD in the land of Israel. And so shall we be ever with the LORD.
That's what I currently think will happen.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
The church has no part in Daniel's 70th week. The things that are to be accomplished by the end of Daniel's 70th week; have been accomplished for the church now. Is is in Israel that these things have not been accomplished.
The church has no part in the days of awe. She is wholly righteous when they begin. The church does not need wait for the day of atonement.
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Because the church is not there!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kurt
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posted
Thanks Bandit I read your post. I will check out that book. Pre wrath is comparable to the mid-trib view? Just wondering. Thanks again.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bandit
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quote:
Originally posted by Kurt:
Hello,
I noticed that alot of people on here are talking about the rapture. Many of you have given the link to Rapture Ready. I would like to suggest a link as well that gives the other side of the rapture debate. I think we should review both sides. As for me I am still researching but there does seem to be some problems with the rapture. Just some food for thought.
www.rapturerebuttal.com
Hello Kurt,
I went to that website and left a comment in the guestbook. (Click on the "guestbook" link in the top right column and then click on the "Visitor comments" link at the bottom of the Admin post.) If you are still reseaching, but recognize that there are problems with the rapture (as commonly presented), then you should follow up on the book I mentioned.
Bandit
P.S. If you ever do read that book, I would like to know what your thoughts are.
Posts: 113 | From: Melbourne, Florida | Registered: Jul 2004
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Watcher
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posted
Hello Kurt,
I have studied the rapture theology for many years.
You are so right we should study it for ourselves.
So after study I have been led to believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church. It is the only theology that makes since. See I know Jesus is coming for His bride. I am sure He won't wait until He dumps His wrath on the earth. He does not want a bloodie beat up bride.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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Kurt
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posted
Hello,
I noticed that alot of people on here are talking about the rapture. Many of you have given the link to Rapture Ready. I would like to suggest a link as well that gives the other side of the rapture debate. I think we should review both sides. As for me I am still researching but there does seem to be some problems with the rapture. Just some food for thought.
www.rapturerebuttal.com
Posts: 3 | Registered: Oct 2005
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HisGrace
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For those who believe in a one-stop Rapture/Second Coming, where are the souls of the people who are in the graves??
I once was a nurses' aide in a nursing home. The night staff usually sat the residents up in chairs before they left their shift. First thing one morning I walked into a room and found a woman sitting in her chair, and it was obvious she was dead.
I had a good look at her before all the makeup of the funeral parlour had been put on and what struck me most about looking into her face was that she looked like an empty shell. It was so obvious that her soul had left her body, so where did it go? Not into the ground, of course. If she were a born-again Christian, it would have gone directly to heaven.
Describing when Jesus comes back, it says he is coming by himself, nothing about bringing souls with him. Souls wouldn't leave heaven once they reach there. Therefore, our glorified bodies are reunited with our souls once they reach heaven.
Why is it necessary to reunite body and soul? It's because they bride has to be prepared to come back with Jesus for the Second Coming so that they can dwell with Jesus once again for 1000 years.
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HisGrace
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HisClay?? ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
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BORN AGAIN
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Okay, HisClay, we shall see where we go. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Yes, all the clay figures, now glorified, will meet Him in the air and accompany Him to the land of Israel. No need for a 7-year vacation in heaven first.God bless, BORN AGAIN
I am getting dizzy from going 'round and 'round on this potter's wheel. so I will be well ready to get off, because Jesus is preparing a place for me in heaven according John 14.
John 14:1-4 Don't be troubled. You trust God, now trust in me. There are many rooms in my Father's home, and I am going to prepare a place for you.
If this were not so, I would tell you plainly. When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am. And you know where I am going and how to get there."
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Daytimeson23
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posted
Matthew 24 is for every believer who is here now during the tribulation
Posts: 12 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Watcher
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posted
In Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to the Jews , they unlike the Church will go through the "seven" year tribulation.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Daytimeson23
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If the true believers do not go through the tribulation but are whisked away for "seven" years, they why would the bible mention this and why would it say in Matthew 24 that those who endure the same shall be saved. It is not saying that because you endure you will be saved BUT, those who are saved will go through the tribulation and will endure it. Think about it Matthew 24:29 would make no sense, if immediately AFTER the tribulation the believers will be taken away.
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Watcher
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There will be a seven years of tribulation on earth. The antichrist will rule, reign and demand worship from EVERYONE on the earth.
The Bride of Christ will be in Heaven on her honeymoon during those seven years ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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Dear HisGrace, you write quote:
Are you one of those who believe God is going to pull a u-y on us? We're talking millions and millions of people here.
Picture it. "Thank-you Jesus for allowing us to meet you in the air to be with you in heaven. This certainly is a glorious day. What - You say "No"? Oh, oh, what's happening here. Sorry we're all going back again guys."
Yes, all the clay figures, now glorified, will meet Him in the air and accompany Him to the land of Israel. No need for a 7-year vacation in heaven first.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
True, the rapture is NOT the Second Coming, but the rapture AND the Second Coming are part of the same event.
The Lord comes for the second time, and we are raptured up to meet Him in the air. Then we accompany Him and His army of angels and saints to the mount of Olives in the land of Israel.
It's that simple. Everything else is fantasy land.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Are you one of those who believe God is going to pull a u-y on us? We're talking millions and millions of people here.
Picture it. "Thank-you Jesus for allowing us to meet you in the air to be with you in heaven. This certainly is a glorious day. What - You say "No"? Oh, oh, what's happening here. Sorry we're all going back again guys."
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oneyearandcounting
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Watcher first off let me say I usually enjoy yopur postsand get something out of each one. But not to be rude but that Ben Her trumpet thing along with the Wizard of Oz trumpet has got to be the dumbest arguement I have ever heard. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
The key to the Trumpets is one word last. Last is the key because no matter how you want to look at it there can only be on last trumpet. If five verses say that it will be on the last trump well guess what it is the last trump. If the seventh trump is the last trump in the book of Revelation,
guess what its the last trump.
My God is not the author of confusion. I repeat my God isnot the author of confusion. So therefore it comes to reason that inless there is scripture in the Bible that says other whys I'm holding out that the last trumps are all the same.
But maybe you and every other pretribber is right and we have a rapture. Just maybe I'm still standing in this spot.(sorry scripture is not showing me that though). Heres something to think about Maybe the ones who don't believe in a pre trib rapture don't believe for one reason. We are going to be here while the rest of the Christians are gone. I believe there is mention of 144,000
running around preaching the Gospel. Oh wait That can't be you have to be from the tribes of Isreal. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Hmmm I wonder where my geneology runs to. This also can't be because well I have never heard it preached by the Christian Church that the witness could be members of Christ Body. ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Oh well like I have said before and I guess it is worth repeating. THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE. UNLESS YOU ARE UNSAVED AND WAITING FOR A SIGN. Therefor there isn't any point in beating up a theory that can not be proven. You show two verses I counter with two other verses. You show 64 I counter with a rebuttal. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
All it does is show those outside the body that well us Christians can't agree on nothing. It's no wonder Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons are so popular. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
But anyhow back to work for me.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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Daytimeson23
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The reason why Paul could write about something as John did 40 years later is because it is the word of GOD, not the ideas of Paul or John. So when God speaks of the trumpets in Revelation, we dont just shrug the rest of the bible off and say "well Revelation is for Revelation", otherwise 90% of Revelation would be meaningless. The same reason why Isaiah spoke of a New heaven and a New Earth thousands of years before John spoke wrote Revelation 21, but they identify and we use the whole bible to interpret itself.
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Watcher
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Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.
When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related.
To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.
In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?
If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant?
Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.
With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Exlax.
They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear.
Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52.
However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?
Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:
1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."
2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.
3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.
When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead.
Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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BORN AGAIN
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Isaiah 27:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
When the seventh angel, who is also the last angel, sounds, then the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord:
Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
And we also are not changed until the last trumpet sounds:
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Everything happens at the Second Coming.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Daytimeson23
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The "rapture" will happen at the end of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 - we read in this verse a time clue for when we will receive our new spiritual bodies and that is "the last trump".
Revelation 11:15-18 - again the seventh angel sounded which is "the last trump". And what happened on that day the last angel sounded, the dead are judged, the saints are rewarded and the destroyers are destroyed. Again the end of the world.
Luke 17:28-37 - the example of Sodom and Gomorrah as the end of the world. Notice it is the same day that they are taken and left, that they are destroyed and those taken will see those who are left destroyed. So shall it be at the end.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 - everyone knows this verse and is the most quoted at the "rapture" verse. However what they fail to realize is that this verse does not stand alone from the rest of the bible, it too must be compared to what the rest of the bible has to say. However the dead in Christ, meaning only the bodies of those who died in Christ will be raised because 2 Corinthians 5:8 says their spirit is in heaven.
If we look at John 6, we see on a number of occasions that Christ says he will raise the believers "on the last day". Four times to be exact. However if we read one chapter before we see that not only the believers but the unbelievers bodies will be raised at the exact same time. John 5:28-29, so to say that the "rapture" is not at the end of the world is incorrect. The bible is overflowing with the evidence that it will be at the end of the world and is the only way to come to biblical truth regarding these passages is for it to be so.
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BORN AGAIN
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Watcher, you were doing great until the very last paragraph quote:
Jesus is making it very clear that the ones taken here are taken in judgment into the realm of death. These are not believers being taken into the realm of blessing as will be true at the Rapture. {bold emphasis by BA}
I agreed with every paragraph until you undid it all again with the bolded part.
At the Second Coming, the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are alive are caught up to meet Him in the air.
The one who is taken into death is the sinnner, the one who is left is the believer who comes down with the Lord to take possession of the earth and to walk on the ashes of the wicked on that same day.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Watcher
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People should always read the scriptures in proper context.
Who Was Removed from Earth Following the Flood in Noah's Days?
We have been looking at various passages to see who is "taken" and who is "left". Last time we saw that the "elect" referred specifically to the nation of Israel.
Now, some say, but wait, there's another place in Matthew 24 where it has to be the Church being removed from the earth and that's beginning with verse 37 where Jesus says, "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the Flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day that Noah entered into the ark and knew not until the Flood came and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
What Jesus is saying here is this: the order at my glorious Second Coming immediately after the seven-year Tribulation period will be identically the same as the order of things in Noah's day in conjunction with the Flood. One of the ways in which the order would be the same is this: the Flood came and took them all away. Which group of people did the Flood take away from planet Earth—the believers or the unbelievers? The Flood removed all the unbelievers of Noah's day from the earth in judgment. And the believers in Noah's day, namely, Noah and his family, were left here on the earth in the ark to go into the next period of world history after the Flood.
After pointing that out, Jesus says, again, at the end of verse 39, "So shall also the coming of the Son of man be." It will be the same order of things then as it was in the days of Noah with the Flood. And then to illustrate that, He goes on in verses 40 and 41, "then in the day that the Son of man comes [after the Tribulation period], then shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken and the other left."
Now the question is, "Who is the one taken from the field and the one taken from the mill?" If it's the same order of things as in Noah's day with the Flood, and the Flood took all the unsaved away, and Jesus says it'll be the same order at His Second Coming, then it seems to me you're forced to conclude that the one who is taken from the field and the one who is taken from the mill are not believers taken by Rapture but unbelievers who are alive on the earth at Jesus' Second Coming. They are taken by Christ's holy angels from the earth in judgment just as we saw with the Parable of the Tares and the Parable of the Dragnet in Matthew 13.
Therefore the one that's left in the field and the one that's left at the mill is the believer who is left here on the earth, the believer who is alive at the Second Coming of Christ after the Tribulation period left here on the earth to go into the next period of history, namely, the Kingdom. Just as in Noah's day, it was the unbelievers who were removed in judgment, Noah and his family were left here on the earth to go into the next period of world history.
Now, to demonstrate even more clearly that that's the order of things Jesus is describing, we should turn over to the parallel passage, Luke's record, of Jesus' same teaching as recorded for us in Luke 17.
Just to show you Jesus is presenting the same teaching here, we read in verse 26: "As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage until the day that Noah entered into the ark and the flood came and destroyed them all."
Then Jesus says, verse 30, "even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be on the housetop and the stuff in the house let him not come down to take it away; he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back."
Then He goes on to say in verse 34, "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed, the one shall be taken and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together, the one shall be taken and the other left. Two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, the other left." This is the same teaching that Matthew recorded in Matthew 24. But now Luke records something that Matthew did not record.
We read in Luke 17:37, "And they answered and said unto Him, 'Where, Lord?'" What they're saying is, "Lord, you keep talking about people being taken somewhere. To where are they being taken?"
Listen to Jesus' answer: "He said unto them," middle of verse 37, "wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles" [literally "there will the vultures be gathered together]." Vultures are flesh-eating fowl.
What Jesus is saying is this, "You want to know where those who are taken, where they are taken?
They are taken into the realm of death. That's where they're taken at my Second Coming and their dead bodies, their carcasses, will be left here on the earth for the vultures and flesh-eating fowl on planet Earth to come and feast upon their dead bodies.
Jesus is making it very clear that the ones taken here are taken in judgment into the realm of death. These are not believers being taken into the realm of blessing as will be true at the Rapture.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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BORN AGAIN
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Also, Watcher, in all the parables of Jesus, the good and the bad are still together at harvest time.
In the parable of the net full of fish, the good fish and the bad fish are still together with the bad fish, but the bad fish are thrown away.
In the parable of the ten virgins, the five good virgins are still with the five bad virgins when the bridegroom comes.
In the parable of the wheat and the tares, the wheat is still together with the tares until the angels come to harvest them.
In Misr Egypt during the plagues, the bad Misr Egyptians were stil together with the good Israelites in the land of Goshen, until the Exodus came.
Noah and his wife and the sons's families were being saved in the ark in the same day that the people were drowning outside the ark.
Rahab was saved on the same day that everyone in Jericho was slain.
Lot was saved in Zoar on the same day that it rained fire and sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah and burned them all.
Malachi 4
1 For, look, the day comes that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud and all who do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of armies, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you who fear My Name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go forth as calves from the stall.
3 And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the LORD of armies.
When He comes and all His holy angels with Him, accompanied by the saints who had died in Christ and who first rose from the dead, and then we beleivers also who are alive when He comes with all His holy angels shall be "changed in the twinkling of an eye" and "caught up to meet Him in the air" and "so shall we ever be with Him".
That's my take on it; I think it makes a stronger case than the Jewish wedding case, though that also has its merits.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Watcher writes quote:
According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens
The rabbis divided the shamayim up into seven heavens, which were, in ascending order beginning from the earth:
the vilon
the rakia (Gen.1:6, KJV=firmament)
the sheha-kim
the zebul (Hab.3:11, KJV=habitation)
the maon (Ps.68:5, KJV=habitation)
the makon
the araboth (Ps.68:4, heavens), which was the highest heaven where the LORD rode around on His chariots:
Psalm 68
4 Sing unto God, sing praises to His name: extol Him who rides upon the heavens {Hebrew, araboth} by His name JAH, and rejoice before Him.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Watcher
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Bob some people should learn the difference between Israel and the Church, then and only then can one understand the Bible and its prophecy.
Heaven( 1.) Definitions. The phrase "heaven and earth" is used to indicate the whole universe ( Gen 1:1; Jer 23:24; Act 17:24). According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens,
( a) The firmament, as "fowls of the heaven" ( Gen 2:19; 7:3,23; Psa 8:8, etc.), "the eagles of heaven" ( Lam 4:19), etc.
( b) The starry heavens ( Deu 17:3; Jer 8:2; Mat 24:29).
( c) "The heaven of heavens," or "the third heaven" ( Deu 10:14; 1Ki 8:27; Psa 115:16; 148:4; 2Cr 12:2).
( 2.) Meaning of words in the original,
( a) The usual Hebrew word for "heavens" is _shamayim_, a plural form meaning "heights," "elevations" ( Gen 1:1; 2:1).
( b) The Hebrew word _marom_ is also used ( Psa 68:18; 93:4; 102:19, etc.) as equivalent to _shamayim_, "high places," "heights."
( c) Heb. galgal, literally a "wheel," is rendered "heaven" in Psa 77:18 ( R.V., "whirlwind").
( d) Heb. shahak, rendered "sky" ( Deu 33:26; Job 37:18; Psa 18:11), plural "clouds" ( Job 35:5; 36:28; Psa 68:34, marg. "heavens"), means probably the firmament.
( e) Heb. rakia is closely connected with ( d), and is rendered "firmamentum" in the Vulgate, whence our "firmament" ( Gen 1:6; Deu 33:26, etc.), regarded as a solid expanse.
( 3.) Metaphorical meaning of term. Isa 14:13, 14; "doors of heaven" ( Psa 78:23); heaven "shut" ( 1Ki 8:35); "opened" ( Eze 1:1). ( See 1Ch 21:16.)
( 4.) Spiritual meaning. The place of the everlasting blessedness of the righteous; the abode of departed spirits.
( a) Christ calls it his "Father's house" ( Jhn 14:2).
( b) It is called "paradise" ( Luk 23:43; 2Cr 12:4; Rev 2:7).
( c) "The heavenly Jerusalem" ( Gal 4:26; Hbr 12:22; Rev 3:12).
( d) The "kingdom of heaven" ( Mat 25:1; Jam 2:5).
( e) The "eternal kingdom" ( 2Pe 1:11).
( f) The "eternal inheritance" ( 1Pe 1:4; Hbr 9:15).
( g) The "better country" ( Hbr 11:14,16).
( h) The blessed are said to "sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and to be "in Abraham's bosom" ( Luk 16:22; Mat 8:11); to "reign with Christ" ( 2Ti 2:12); and to enjoy "rest" ( Hbr 4:10,11).
In heaven the blessedness of the righteous consists in the possession of "life everlasting," "an eternal weight of glory" ( 2Cr 4:17), an exemption from all sufferings for ever, a deliverance from all evils ( 2Cr 5:1,2) and from the society of the wicked ( 2Ti 4:18), bliss without termination, the "fulness of joy" for ever ( Luk 20:36; 2Cr 4:16,18; 1Pe 1:4; 5:10; 1Jo 3:2). The believer's heaven is not only a state of everlasting blessedness, but also a "place", a place "prepared" for them ( Jhn 14:2).
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
Originally posted by Watcher:
. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven.
This appears to be another case of picking a verse to fit one's theory.
Rev. 21 clearly states that our eternal home will be the New Earth God will create and NOT Heaven. Heaven is God's domain ("headquarters" so to speak) where the records and rewards are kept. The fact that when Jesus left the Earth to sit at the right hand of God does not mean He never moves from that spot. However, that belief has led to the misconception that we go to Heaven when we die (or when we are "raptured").
Believers in the "Heaven is our eternal home" doctrine love to use the "I go to prepare a place for you that where I am you will be also" verse as "proof" that our eternal home is Heaven because Jesus is sitting (and apparently never moving) at the right hand of God (who is in Heaven). And that is just not what Jesus is saying.
The entire universe, and beyond, is God's house so when Jesus said "...in my father's house are many mansions..." He didn't mean Heaven.
Rev. 21 says God will make His home with His people, that the New Jerusalem will be suspended above the New Earth to provide light (as there will be no sun).
It's time we study end-times events and the coming Eternity for ourselves (with God's help) instead of buying into whatever we are taught by those parroting what they have been taught.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
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Watcher
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In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior.
The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it’s time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario.
Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Watcher
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quote:
Good try, Watcher Actually, though, it seems that in the three Biblical examples of apantesis, the people who come to meet the important person are the ones doing the apantesis, or the turning around. Likewise we will accompany Yahshua-Jesus in our glorified bodies to the earth, first to the mount of Olives which He will split in two.
Well thanks for that BA, but Christ is coming from His home (Heaven where He went to prepare a place for us)to meet His bride(us) He will be the one returning ("turning around")with Hid Bride.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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BORN AGAIN
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Dear Watcher writes quote:
So Jesus is the one that will "apantesis" with us, right back to Heaven, where He has prepared a place for us!
Good try, Watcher Actually, though, it seems that in the three Biblical examples of apantesis, the people who come to meet the important person are the ones doing the apantesis, or the turning around. Likewise we will accompany Yahshua-Jesus in our glorified bodies to the earth, first to the mount of Olives which He will split in two.
At His Second Coming, Yahshua-Jesus catches up those Christians who are alive on the earth at that time of His Second Coming, and so shall we ever be with the Lord:
1 Corinthians 15:50-52(KJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 But look, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis, or we turn around, not the important person the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The comfort is that the Lord will catch all Christians up into the air at His Second Coming.
May the LORD God of Israel bless everyone on this Christian BBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the Lord Kurios Yahshua-Jesus, Who was raised in Nazareth ("He shall be called a Nazeren"), but born in Bethlehem of Judah, of the house of David.
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Watcher
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Born Again
Caught up means to seize, or to carry off by force; there is often the notion of a sudden swoop, and usually that of a force which cannot be resisted to meet was used as a technical term to describe the official welcome of honored guests
This is the basis for the New Testament doctrine of the rapture - the catching away of believers to be with Jesus; the word rapture is not in the Greek text, but comes from the Latin Vulgate, which translates the phrase caught up with rapturus.
Jesus said:
Jhn 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also."
So Jesus is the one that will "apantesis" with us, right back to Heaven, where He has prepared a place for us!
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Dr. James McKeever, for one, has pointed out that the Greek word for meet in 1Thes.4:17 above is the word apantesis.
This word occurs only 4 times in the NT (see Strong's 529), and means to go out to meet an arriving person, and then TO TURN AROUND and ACCOMPANY THAT PERSON BACK TO WHERE WE CAME FROM.
A good example of how apantesis works is found in Acts 28:15, where the Christian brethren of Rome heard that Paul was coming toward Rome, and so the brethren left Rome and came as far out of Appii Forum to meet {Greek, apantesis} the oncoming Paul:
Acts 28
14 Where we {the oncoming Paul} found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we {the oncoming Paul} went toward Rome.
15 And from there, when the brethren {of Rome} heard of us, they came to MEET us as far as Appii forum, at The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
So we see the brethren went from Rome to Appii Forum, where they met or apantesis with Paul, and then the brethren turned around and accompanied Paul back to Rome.
Let me now apply this use of apantesis to 1 Thes.4:17:
1 Thessalonians 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet {Greek, apantesis} the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is, when the Lord comes toward the earth at the Second Coming, we are caught up from the earth to meet or apantesis the Lord in the air, and then we turn around and accompany the Lord back to the earth where the Lord is headed.
When that catching up occurs, we therefore do not go to heaven, but we accompany the Lord back to the earth in our glorified bodies.
The other two instances in the NT where this word apantesis occurs are Matthew 25:1 and 25:6:
Matthew 25
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet {Greek, apantesis} the bridegroom.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes; go out to meet {Greek, apantesis} him.
These two verses from Matthew 25 refer to the same event as that described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 at the top of this Topic.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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Watcher
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Born Again
can you please give us the scriptures that tells us about this great event?
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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BORN AGAIN
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True, the rapture is NOT the Second Coming, but the rapture AND the Second Coming are part of the same event.
The Lord comes for the second time, and we are raptured up to meet Him in the air. Then we accompany Him and His army of angels and saints to the mount of Olives in the land of Israel.
It's that simple. Everything else is fantasy land.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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oneyearandcounting
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Ok I have picked some of the 64 reasons apart at some time or another. today I will use scripture to take the "imminence" part of it.
Tim Warner - 05-02-2003
What is the biblical definition of imminency? Dr. Renald Showers defines and describes imminence as follows:
An imminent event is one which is always "hanging overhead, is constantly ready to befall or overtake one; close at hand in its incidence." ("imminent," The Oxford English Dictionary, 1901, V, 66.) Thus, imminence carries the sense that it could happen at any moment. Other things may happen before the imminent event, but nothing else must take place before it happens. If something else must take place before an event can happen, then that event is not imminent. In other words, the necessity of something else taking place first destroys the concept of imminency.
Jesus fortold Peters death to him in John 21:18-19 18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
Both Peter and Paul were martyred around AD66, some thirty-three years after Jesus made this prediction. If Peter was a fairly young man, say in his mid thirties, when Jesus spoke this, that would put him at around 70 years old when he was finally martyred. Peter, Paul, and the early Christians expected Peter to live to an old age, to die, and be resurrected later at the resurrection of believers. As long as Peter was still fairly young and alive the rapture could not possibly be "imminent" by pre trib standard. Therefore, Paul knew Jesus' coming was not "imminent" while he penned the very Epistles that pre tribbers claim teach "imminence." And Paul's readers, who knew Peter, fully understood that the rapture was not imminent as long as Peter was still around. Even Peter's death could not be said to be imminent while he was still a fairly young man, or while he was a free man, because Jesus prophesied martyrdom for Peter in his old age. Therefore, Jesus' prophecy about Peter's death defies the definition of "imminence," and plainly indicates that the early Church could not have held to the kind of "imminence" that is taught by Pre trib teachers.
Paul also wrote an extensive refutation of "imminence" because some of the early Thessalonian believers had mistakenly assumed that Jesus' coming was imminent. In his first Epistle to the Thessalonians Paul indicated that Jesus' coming would not catch them by surprise, something that could not be said if Jesus' coming would be completely unannounced as pre tribbers("imminence" requires).
1 Thess 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)
Paul also wrote an extensive refutation of "imminence" because some of the early Thessalonian believers had mistakenly assumed that Jesus' coming was imminent. In his first Epistle to the Thessalonians Paul indicated that Jesus' coming would not catch them by surprise, something that could not be said if Jesus' coming would be completely unannounced (as pre tribbers "imminence" requires).
1 Thess 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(KJV)
Therefore, we have definite prophecies by Jesus, Peter, and Paul that indicate certain things must occur before the rapture.
• Peter's growing old and becoming a martyr
• The Gospel being preached to the Samaritans and Gentiles
• The 'Apostasy' in the last days
• The revelation of the Man of Sin
• Scoffers in the last days
James 5:7-8
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
(KJV)
James used a parable of a farmer to illustrate how believers should await the coming of Christ. He pointed out that the farmer patiently awaits the time of harvest. He recommended that believers take the same approach as the farmer, patiently waiting for the coming of Christ. Is this an illustration of an "any moment" coming with no prior signs? Does a farmer expect the harvest "at any moment" during the entire year after planting? A farmer knows that there is an appointed time for the harvest, after the crop has matured. He patiently awaits the rainy season before harvest.
"Watching" Defined by Jesus
Jesus' post-trib coming is clearly spoken of in precisely the same way, with instructions for "watching." In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gave a whole series of signs that will precede and announce His coming "immediately after the tribulation." Yet, Jesus told His followers to WATCH for this coming!
Mark 13
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: ...
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. ...
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. ...
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
(KJV)
Tim Warner - 05-02-2003
AS I have said before we are told to watch for his coming, not for a pre trib rapture. There is a big difference in that. And yes I did cut and paste from Mr. Warner's website, because he said it alot better than I could.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I am a Christian saved by grace, but thanks for your concern.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Watcher
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Bandit
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Hello all,
I didn't read through any of the 64 reasons; not really interested, even though I'm pretty sure I could refute them all. But, the real number one reason why the rapture is not the 2nd coming is because you have been so intrenched with this teaching that you wouldn't believe anything else, even if the bible said something else.
You guys are so brain-washed.
Bandit
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
If Christians stop believing in the pre-trib rapture then they lose the importance of getting people saved before too late.
Dear Betty,
I have stopped believing in the pre-trib rapture senerio but have not lost the importance of teaching the soon return of our Lord, so get your life in order and become a believer in the saving Grace of Christ.
I today don't believe that there will be a second chance for the fence sitters after a rapture to become a believer. Yes I know that they may not live past the destruction of the rapture. And I do mean destruction cause sit back on your patio with your favorite beverage and think of the moment. All going along well when in the blink of the eye ALL Christains around the world gone! Do you think that tomorrow morning all will go on as usual with the exception of picking up all these clothes laying around OR the destruction of
chemical plant exploding;
refineries burning out of control;
cars, planes, trains, ships,in twisted heaps of metal;
I just don't see life as usual with a peace treaty signing and all that when all people will be looking for is there next meal and shelter without communication cause it will more than likly be down also.
Imagine hurricane Katrina spread out all over the world and no federal gov't to come and help because of the overwelming scene.
Unlees God sends Jesus timed so not one christian is in a position of importance. Which He is capable of doing. I do not put anything above the power of our Lord.
Just some food for thought,
"And when they say Peace and Safety, BAM sudden destruction ...."
Rick
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TEXASGRANDMA
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The peace treaty that Israel will sign with the anti-Christ will bring a three and half year peace among Israel and all nations.
The Bible does say that great trouble will come when the peace agreement is signed and yes it will, because the moment the peace treaty is signed the tribulation will began. A 7 year period worse than any period ever on this earth. We have always had trouble but this will be like no other trouble. A study on Revlation will show you how no Christian wants to be here during the triublation. Why does the devil want to sign this aggrement? Most of the world look at the Middle East as the source of most world trouble. When the anti-Christ accomplishes this, he will be consider a hero at the least and a god to many.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
Didn't Isreal just sign a peace treaty with the Palistanians. Actually Bush was behind it to right, The Road Map. And this was why the Jews moved out of Gaza. Oh wait we are waiting for a different peace treaty because well there is not any peace in the Middle East.
Doesn't the Bible say they will say peace peace but there can be no peace. Hmm sounds like now huh. I could be wrong but didn't Abbas and Sharon both sign it in may 2005.
Oh wait it can't be that one though we are all still here.
God bless greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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Watcher
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posted
Ms Betty, those people are fullfilling this prophecy.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Good Morning Watcher,
I asked my Sunday school teacher who is teaching on Prophecy why I am becoming under attack for believing in the pre-trib rapture when, until recently this has never happened before. He said that it is because Jesus is coming very soon. The devil is working so hard to get even Christians to stop looking for the return of Christ. If Christians stop believing in the pre-trib rapture then they lose the importance of getting people saved before too late. They can relax and wait until the anti-Christ is revealed and the peace treaty is signed and then start to work on getting the lost saved. Jesus said He was coming for those who are looking for His return; sadly there are too many Christians who are not looking for the return of Jesus.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Watcher
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posted
64 Reasons The Rapture Of The Church Is Not The Second Coming Of Christ To Reign On Earth
Those who do not believe in the biblical doctrine of the Rapture of the Church, usually argue that there is only one Coming or return of Christ to the earth to judge the nations. Some hold that this One Coming is simply for taking the believers home to heaven, with a judgment to follow.
Those who hold to the Rapture of the Church are far more careful to observe what the Bible says in context. They can observe the simple fact that there is a difference between up and down. Believers go up to meet Christ in the air. The Second Coming is indeed truly a “coming” of the Lord down to the earth physically to establish the millennial kingdom promised to the Old Testament prophets.
Below is a list of verses and points, as shown in the Bible, highlighting the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming of the Lord to reign on earth. Some wonder why there is a heated discussion about this issue. It is important for the following reasons:
First, if the Rapture truly is in Scripture, that is enough to make it important. In other words, every doctrine the Lord has given us has a purpose and is important, simply because He has given it to us!
The Rapture is called the Blessed Hope. It promises redemption from the terrible seven year Tribulation so detailed in the book of Revelation.
Generally speaking, those who deny the Rapture of the Church interpret the Bible in a “spiritualized” or “allegorical” way. They also fail to consider “contexts.” They deny certain passages of Scripture in the normal sense. By letting the Bible speak plainly in its teachings to us, we honor the Lord. We take His Word at face value!
Some general rules to note:
Rapture passages are addressed to believers in the body of Christ. They are verses that speak of going directly back or up to the Lord in heaven.
Second Coming passages have to do with the Lord coming down to earth to bless Israel, judge the nations, and rule the earth with a scepter of iron!
Comparison Of Rapture And Second Coming Verses:
Rapture: Christ prepares a place for us and takes us back to heaven. “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:1-3).
Second Coming: Coming to reign and rule in Jerusalem, Christ’s feet touch upon the Mt. of Olives. “In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount will split in its middle” (Zech. 14:4).
Rapture: Christ prepares a place in heaven. “I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2).
Second Coming: Christ becomes a ruling king on earth. “The Lord will be king over all the earth” (Zech. 14:9).
Rapture: The Church is with the Lord in heaven. “Where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:3).
Second Coming: The Jewish people are with their king on earth. “And people will live in [Jerusalem], and there will be no more curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security” (Zech. 14:11).
Rapture: Announced by the trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Announced simply by a great trumpet (but not called the trumpet of God) (Matt. 24:31).
Rapture: Those “in Christ” are gathered “to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: The “elect” gathered (of Jews and the nations) (Matt. 24:31) to come before the king on His earthly throne (Matt. 25:31).
Rapture: The Lord descends from heaven with a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: The Lord does not shout (Scripture gives no indication of such).
Rapture: The voice of the archangel is heard (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Many angels sound a great trumpet but their voices are not heard (Matt. 24:31).
Rapture: No sign given for His coming.
Second Coming: A sign is given (Matt. 24:30).
Rapture: Called the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:9).
Second Coming: Called the Son of Man. A distinct messianic term used to describe the earthly Davidic king who shall reign in Jerusalem (Matt. 24:30).
Rapture: Comforting words for the Church. The Church will not mourn. “Comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:18).
Second Coming: The nation of Israel will mourn. “Those who pierced Him will mourn” (Rev. 1;7).
Rapture: The Scriptures do not indicate that the lost of the world will see His Rapture coming.
Second Coming: The entire world will see the Son of Man coming. “All the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky” (Matt. 24:30).
Rapture: The Church saints (those in Christ) will be caught up alive “to be together (with the resurrected Church saints) in the clouds” (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: The Messiah, the Son of Man, comes with the clouds (Matt. 24:30) to gather the elect to the place of His earthly throne (25:31).
Rapture: Christ’s power is not necessarily displayed openly to the world.
Second Coming: He comes “with power and great glory” as the Son of Man to rule on earth (Matt. 24:31).
Rapture: Called the Day of Christ (Phil. 1:6, 10; 2:16). Day of blessing for the believer.
Second Coming: Called the Day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2). Day of judgment for the world, “When they (the world) says ‘Peace and Safety!’ then destruction comes upon them” (v. 3).
Rapture: The Day of the Lord. “That day should not overtake you like a thief” (1 Thess. 5:5).
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord. “Shall come [on them, the world] like a thief” (1 Thess. 5:2).
Rapture: Believers in this Church age will be Raptured out of the Tribulation because they are sons of light, sons of the day (1 Thess. 5:5).
Second Coming: Unbelievers left behind to face the Tribulation (the Day of the Lord) because they are of the night, of the darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).
Rapture: Believers will be Raptured because they are not destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).
Second Coming: Unbelievers will face the Day of the Lord because (implied) they are destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).
Rapture: The Dead “in Christ” are raised (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: No mention of the Dead “in Christ” being raised.
Rapture: The Rapture takes place with no mention of the issue of sin.
Second Coming: The Second Coming of Christ to judge because of the wickedness of the world.
Rapture: No mention of Christ coming to rule on earth.
Second Coming: Mentions that He comes to establish His earthly kingdom (Matt. 25:31-34).
Rapture: No mention of believers “inheriting the kingdom prepared for you” (Matt. 25:34).
Second Coming: The righteous “inherit the kingdom” (Matt. 25:34).
Rapture: Christ does not do battle with His enemies at the Rapture.
Second Coming: Christ does battle with His enemies at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:17-21).
Rapture: Christ does not come to earth as a conquering warrior.
Second Coming: He comes to earth as a conquering warrior (Rev. 19:11-16).
Rapture: He comes as the Head of the Church.
Second Coming: He comes as “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” (Rev. 19:16).
Rapture: No earthly reign takes place.
Second Coming: He reigns for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5).
Rapture: Those Raptured resurrected are taken up to meet the Lord in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: Those in the resurrection at the beginning of the thousand year kingdom, “will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6).
Rapture: When the resurrected Church saints, and we the living Church saints, all together are taken up in the clouds, it is said “we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:17). Therefore, when Jesus comes to reign on earth for one thousand years, the Church Age saints will return with Him.
Second Coming: Those resurrected at the beginning of the one thousand year reign are apparently those who died during the great Tribulation (Rev. 20:6).
Rapture: Resurrection and Rapture only for “those in Christ.”
Second Coming: A resurrection for Old Testament saints, that takes place after the “time of distress” (the Tribulation) (Dan. 12:1-2).
Rapture: The unsaved people of the nations are unaffected and unchanged at the Rapture.
Second Coming: The nations are judged and/or blessed when the Messiah comes to reign.
Rapture: The nation of Israel is left unchanged when the Rapture takes place.
Second Coming: The nation of Israel is gathered, judged, and the righteous Jews inter kingdom blessing.
Rapture: No herald goes before to announce the Rapture.
Second Coming: Elijah comes to announce the coming of the Messiah (Mal. 4:5).
Rapture: Can happen at any moment.
Second Coming: Comes at the end of the seven year Tribulation.
Rapture: Not before revealed that Paul had to reveal (1 Thess. 4:13). That’s why Paul says he must tell believers about the Rapture so that they would not be ignorant of the fact.
Second Coming: Throughly revealed in Old Testament promises and by Christ in the Gospels.
Rapture: Called a “mystery,” something not before revealed (1 Cor. 15:51).
Second Coming: The Second Coming is a well known fact taught throughout the Old Testament prophets.
Rapture: Believers are changed (1 Cor. 15:51).
Second Coming: Believers are not said to be changed, that is, those who believed during the Tribulation and are alive to enter the kingdom when the Messiah comes.
Rapture: Before the Rapture, the believers are called those “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Those believing who are in the Tribulation (Rev. 6-19) are not called “Church saints” nor “those in Christ.”
Rapture: Before the Rapture, the believers are called those “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Both Jew and Gentile who enter the kingdom in their natural body are never called “the Church” nor “those in Christ.”
Rapture: When the Rapture takes place those in Christ are “changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:51-52).
Second Coming: Though the Second Coming happens quickly, the event is still pictured as something that unfolds over (even) a short period of time. A sign in heaven is given, an earthly gathering takes place, both Jews and Gentile mourn at His coming, He steps onto the Mt. of Olives, He enters the city of Jerusalem.
Rapture: When the Rapture and/or the resurrection of “those in Christ” takes place, the believer is given “the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” over the issue of death (1 Cor. 15:57).
Second Coming: When the Second Coming takes place, Christ comes as the victorious king and general. Following the kingdom and the Great White Throne Judgment, certainly all saints of all the ages past are given eternal life. But this is not mentioned as such at the Second Coming.
Rapture: The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ for His own, the Church (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must first intervene. Church believers, then, should look for signs. But they are not told to.
Rapture: Creation is unchanged.
Second Coming: Creation is changed by the blessings of the kingdom (Isa. 65:25). “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox, … They shall do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain, says the Lord.”
Rapture: At the time of the Rapture, or before, there is no indication that the Church saints will see the antichrist or the “power, signs, and false wonders” of Satan (2 Thess. 2:8-9).
Second Coming: After the Rapture and sometime before the Second Coming of Christ, the antichrist will “display himself as being God” in the temple (2 Thess. 2:4; 8-9).
Rapture: The Rapture is not the Day of the Lord which holds terror for the world.
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord is a terrible event that the believers in the Church do not fear. “Do not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed … to the effect that the day of the Lord has come” (2 Thess. 2:1-2).
Rapture: The “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him” is not the Second Coming (2 Thess. 2:1).
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord is “a coming” to earth, not our being gathered to heaven (2 Thess. 2:2).
Rapture: Christ is not said to destroy the antichrist “with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).
Second Coming: Christ destroys the antichrist at His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).
Rapture: The Rapture is not called the Second Coming.
Second Coming: This is virtually called the Second Coming in Hebrews 9:28. Christ “shall appear a “Second time” for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Rapture: In the Rapture “we” are “caught up” into the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17). “Caught up” in Greek means to suddenly “snatch, jerk away, remove quickly.”
Second Coming: This is not said of the Second Coming.
Rapture: For those who are now looking for the Rapture, a hope is given and causes a moral purification (1 John 3:2-3).
Second Coming: This is not said of those looking for the Second Coming, though that is a glorious event in itself!
Proofs of the Imminency of the Rapture
Imminency means that Paul taught that the Rapture could happen at any time to those to whom he was writing. The key to Rapture passages is Paul’s use of “we, you, us.” In other words believers now are to look for this catching away! (Sometimes these pronouns are not in the English Bible versions but they are implied in the grammar of the verbs Paul uses.)
The “you, we, us” passages addressed to the body of Christ, the Church saints
John 14:1-3
I go to prepare a place for you.
I will receive you to Myself.
Where I am, there you may be also.
James 5:7-9
[You] strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
[You] behold, the judge is standing right at the door.
1 Thess. 1:9-10
You wait for His Son from heaven.
Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.
1 Thess. 2:17-19
You [our hope], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming.
1 Thess. 3:13
That [He may] establish your hearts … before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
1 Thess. 4:13-18
We who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. We shall always be with the Lord.
You comfort one another with these words.
1 Thess. 5:1-11
You are not in darkness, that the day [of the Lord] should overtake you like a thief.
You are all sons of light and sons of day.
We are not of night nor of darkness.
But since we are of the day, let us be sober.
God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation (deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 5:23
May the Lord sanctify you … without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess. 2:1-2
With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.
[You] be not quickly shaken … to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
1 Tim. 6:14
You keep the commandment … until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 15:51-52
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
The dead in Christ will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
Phil. 3:20-21
Our citizenship is in heaven.
We eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Christ] will transform the body of our humble state (or humiliated body).
Titus 2:13
[We are] looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
1 John 2:28
We may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
1 John 3:2-3
We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
Everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
A Key Passage: 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
The Thessalonian church was “serving” and “waiting for God’s Son from heaven.” (They were not just serving; they were not just waiting! They were doing both!)
“Jesus who ‘rescues’ us away from the wrath (that is certainly) coming” (Greek)
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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