This is topic Be Very Careful in forum Exposing False Teaching at Christian Message Boards.
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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
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I was poo-hooed for putting this message on another thread, but I will give one more warning. Obviously my words are falling on deaf ears, and I feel led to spend another season away from the 'Exposing False Teaching Forum.'
I have proven on different occasions that lies have been printed about some of these preachers.
Be careful not to buy into these lies. Is the devil deceiving you?
This material is being printed in massive numbers on this Board. Are people really using careful discretion when they press these buttons willy-nilly? This could be a very dangerous practise.
Proverbs 19:5
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
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yet, you come back time and time again, to complain about people who are doing God's work. Many Bible verses have been put here showing how Christians are to mark false Preachers and avoid them.
betty
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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Amen Sister Betty!
As I said before, the quotes I use in posts on these false teachers all have "Sources" attached to them and they can be Easily Verified (if one so desires to look into it). They are not lies.
Yes, we are to be careful and we are also to be Faithful to Gods word and to HIS Calling on our lives. The Bible tells us to Mark those who teach doctrines that Jesus and the Apostles did not teach and to have nothing to do with them. It also says to Expose (Reprove).
The Bible has So Much to say about False Teachers and those who would prophecy for 'gain.' These Scripture have been quoted so many times that I am amazed that they don't seem to have sunk in yet...
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
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HisGrace
I PROVED with his own voice that Benny Hinn is a false prophet - multiple times.
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?????
Follow God and His Truth
Or let your flesh be satisfied by deceiving spirits
BE VERY CAREFUL
Praying you do right by God.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Be careful indeed!
If on judgmment day I have to give account for error against a man in regard to this subject, then I only pray that God will have mercy on me for having a heart t hat feared HIM and believed his word and a flesh that was human. I think it better to have right heart in the spirit toward God and wrong action in the flesh against man than to have a heart in the flesh toward God and right actions toward man that were out of the flesh.
I dont know if that makes sense. I know people that are "good" and kind and sweet toward men at the same time that they mock god with their actions, mouths, lives, lifestyles etc... i would rather I think if I have to be in error be found to have errored in my thinking about men than my thinking about God or HIS word.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Isa.53
1. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
is interpeted by Pete~
1Pet.2
1. [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
The miss use of ISA 53.5 by Benny H and Joyce M to permote their healing programs is a false teaching that should not be followed.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Isa.53
1. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
is interpeted by Pete~
1Pet.2
1. [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
The miss use of ISA 53.5 by Benny H and Joyce M to permote their healing programs is a false teaching that should not be followed.
Peter seems to interpret Isaiah 53:5 the same way as Benny Hinn and Joyce Meyer. People were healed in Peter's shadow. That's how strong Jesus anointing was on him. People were mentally physically healed by Peter in Christ's power.
If you are saying the healing by Christ is a false teaching I suggest you reread the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and Acts.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Isa.53
1. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
is interpeted by Pete~
1Pet.2
1. [24] Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
The miss use of ISA 53.5 by Benny H and Joyce M to permote their healing programs is a false teaching that should not be followed.
My husband says you need to get saved and have a real born again experience and then you will know the Resurrection Power.
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
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1 Peter 2:1-25
(1) Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
(2) like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
(3) if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
(4) And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
(5) you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
(6) For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
(7) This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
(8) and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
(9) But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
(10) for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
(11) Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
(12) Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
(13) Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
(14) or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
(15) For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
(16) Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.
(17) Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
(18) Servants, be submissive to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and gentle, but also to those who are unreasonable.
(19) For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.
(20) For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
(21) For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
(22) WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;
(23) and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;
(24) and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
(25) For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
Peter is talking about HOW we live as Christians
He is talking about SUBMISSION
He is talking about LIVING TO RIGHTEOUSNESS
NOWHERE in here is mentioned PHYSICAL healing
NOWHERE
That is taking the verse OUT OF CONTEXT - as soooo sooo many love to do.
This is ONE SENTENCE - read it as such
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
YOU CAN NOT TAKE THAT IN CONTEXT AS PHYSICAL HEALING HERE
WRONG WRONG WRONG (and yes I DO beleive Jesus heals - but NOT with this verse)
What is the sentence following this?
For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
STOP TWISTING GOD'S WORD TO MAKE IT MEAN WHAT YOU WANT IT TO MEAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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AMEN Brother Wparr!! AMEN!
People who constantly claim that illness is caused by a lack of faith, or that a Christian should Never be sick, have No Idea the HARM they do to others!!!
Where does the Bible say that we will NEVER be Sick? It Doesn't. Why did the prophets suffer from depression? Were they lacking in faith? I don't think so. Even Jesus had his moment in the garden... was HE lacking in faith? NO! Why did Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach problem? Obviously Paul did not see Timothy's stomach problem as a lack of faith or some kind of sin, or he would have said so.
While some illnesses may be caused by Un-Godly behavior, Clearly not all are. To claim that a Christian should Never be sick is to put those who are sick under condemnation and judgement...
Those of you who teach that Christians should never be sick or have any illness... Stop This False Teaching! You are HURTING People!!!!
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
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Peter’s writing in 1 Peter 2, is a direct reference to Isaiah 53. The use of “healing”, is spiritual healing/restoration within its proper context. The Word of Faith proponents wrest it as it were to the deception of themselves and those who follow them.
Isaiah 53:
1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
1 Peter 2:
21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25: For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
5. wounded--a bodily wound; not mere mental sorrow; literally, "pierced"; minutely appropriate to Messiah, whose hands, feet, and side were pierced (Psalms 22:16). The Margin, wrongly, from a Hebrew root, translates, "tormented."
for . . . for--(Romans 4:25, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Peter 2:24, 3:18)--the cause for which He suffered not His own, but our sins.
bruised--crushing inward and outward suffering
chastisement--literally, the correction inflicted by a parent on children for their good (Hebrews 12:5-8,10,11). Not punishment strictly; for this can have place only where there is guilt, which He had not; but He took on Himself the chastisement whereby the peace (reconciliation with our Father; Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:14,15,17) of the children of God was to be effected (Hebrews 2:14).
upon him--as a burden; parallel to "hath borne" and "carried."
stripes--minutely prophetical of His being scourged (Matthew 27:26, 1 Peter 2:24).
healed--spiritually (Psalms 41:4, Jeremiah 8:22).
Psalm 41:
1: Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
2: The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.
3: The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness.
4: I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
Jeremiah 8:
18: When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.
19: Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?
20: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
21: For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.
22: Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?
Hebrew “healed”
Strong's Number: 07495 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
apr a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Rapha' TWOT - 2196
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
raw-faw'
Verb
Definition
1. to heal, make healthful
a. (Qal) to heal
1. of God
2. healer, physician (of men)
3. of hurts of nations involving restored favour (fig)
4. of individual distresses (fig)
b. (Niphal) to be healed
1. literal (of persons)
2. of water, pottery
3. of national hurts (fig)
4. of personal distress (fig)
c. (Piel) to heal
1. literal
2. of national defects or hurts (fig)
d. (Hithpael) in order to get healed (infinitive)
1 Peter 2 Read This Chapter
2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Greek “heal”:
Strong's Number: 2390 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ijavomai middle voice of apparently a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Iaomai 3:194,344
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ee-ah'-om-ahee
Verb
Definition
1. to cure, heal
2. to make whole
a. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation
Isaiah 19:
22: And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23: In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24: In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Isaiah 57:
12: I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.
13: When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
14: And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.
15: For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16: For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17: For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18: I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19: I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
20: But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21: There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
1 Peter 2:
24. his own self--there being none other but Himself who could have done it. His voluntary undertaking of the work of redemption is implied. The Greek puts in antithetical juxtaposition, OUR, and His OWN SELF, to mark the idea of His substitution for us. His "well-doing" in His sufferings is set forth here as an example to servants and to us all (1 Peter 2:20).
bare--to sacrifice: carried and offered up: a sacrificial term. Isaiah 53:11,12, "He bare the sin of many": where the idea of bearing on Himself is the prominent one; here the offering in sacrifice is combined with that idea. So the same Greek means in 1 Peter 2:5.
our sins--In offering or presenting in sacrifice (as the Greek for "bare" implies) His body, Christ offered in it the guilt of our sins upon the cross, as upon the altar of God, that it might be expiated in Him, and so taken away from us. Compare Isaiah 53:10, "Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin." Peter thus means by "bare" what the Syriac takes two words to express, to bear and to offer: (1) He hath borne our sins laid upon Him [namely, their guilt, curse, and punishment]; (2) He hath so borne them that He offered them along with Himself on the altar. He refers to the animals upon which sins were first laid, and which were then offered thus laden [VITRINGA]. Sin or guilt among the Semitic nations is considered as a burden lying heavily upon the sinner [GESENIUS].
on the tree--the cross, the proper place for One on whom the curse was laid: this curse stuck to Him until it was legally (through His death as the guilt-bearer) destroyed in His body: thus the handwriting of the bond against us is cancelled by His death.
that we being dead to sins--the effect of His death to "sin" in the aggregate, and to all particular "sins," namely, that we should be as entirely delivered from them, as a slave that is dead is delivered from service to his master. This is our spiritful standing through faith by virtue of Christ's death: our actual mortification of particular sins is in proportion to the degree of our effectually being made conformable to His death. "That we should die to the sins whose collected guilt Christ carried away in His death, and so LIVE TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS (compare Isaiah 53:11. 'My righteous servant shall justify many'), the gracious relation to God which He has brought in" [STEIGER].
by whose stripes--Greek, "stripe."
ye were healed--a paradox, yet true. "Ye servants (compare 'buffeted,' 'the tree,' 1 Peter 2:20,24) often bear the strife; but it is not more than your Lord Himself bore; learn from Him patience in wrongful sufferings.
25. (Isaiah 53:6.)
For--Assigning their natural need of healing (1 Peter 2:24).
now--Now that the atonement for all has been made, the foundation is laid for individual conversion: so "ye are returned," or "have become converted to," &c.
Shepherd and Bishop--The designation of the pastors and elders of the Church belongs in its fullest sense to the great Head of the Church, "the good Shepherd." As the "bishop" oversees (as the Greek term means), so "the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous" (1 Peter 3:12). He gives us His spirit and feeds and guides us by His word. "Shepherd," Hebrew, "Parnas," is often applied to kings, and enters into the composition of names, as "Pharnabazus."
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
[/QUOTE]My husband says you need to get saved and have a real born again experience and then you will know the Resurrection Power. [/QB][/QUOTE]
We walk by "faith" not feelings. I sugjest you and your husband read prayerfully.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5305860
now stop your sillyness.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
by wparr:
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
Peter is talking about HOW we live as Christians
He is talking about SUBMISSION
He is talking about LIVING TO RIGHTEOUSNESS
NOWHERE in here is mentioned PHYSICAL healing
NOWHERE
That is taking the verse OUT OF CONTEXT - as soooo sooo many love to do.
This is ONE SENTENCE - read it as such
Dear wparr,
Now how is righteousness and submission the same thing as "by who stripes we are healed?"
Peter does state we are to live righteously and be in submission to God, but that is NOT healing, so what part of of "by His strips we are healed" isn't about literal healing?
Righteousness means healing? Submission=healing as definitions?
I thought that healing meant to be cured or freed from some physical or emotional or mental disease or malady.
Healing isn't a word of fuzzy definitions.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
AMEN Brother Wparr!! AMEN!
People who constantly claim that illness is caused by a lack of faith, or that a Christian should Never be sick, have No Idea the HARM they do to others!!!
Where does the Bible say that we will NEVER be Sick? It Doesn't. Why did the prophets suffer from depression? Were they lacking in faith? I don't think so. Even Jesus had his moment in the garden... was HE lacking in faith? NO! Why did Paul tell Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach problem? Obviously Paul did not see Timothy's stomach problem as a lack of faith or some kind of sin, or he would have said so.
While some illnesses may be caused by Un-Godly behavior, Clearly not all are. To claim that a Christian should Never be sick is to put those who are sick under condemnation and judgement...
Those of you who teach that Christians should never be sick or have any illness... Stop This False Teaching! You are HURTING People!!!!
Who is this terrible person saying such things!!!!
Who said that a Christian should NEVER GET SICK?
Who?
I think you are also taking things out of context and adding thoughts of your own that are not really what has been said.
Jesus healed all who came to HIm in faith. That's in the Bible. Jesus couldn't heal in his own home town, because they had no faith. That's in the Bible too.
Sin is the cause of all diseases and illnesses that mankinds suffers. ALL!
It may not be that person's personal sin that is making them sick, but it's the general SINful world and it's condition as to why we all can be sick or ill.
Some people suffer from generational curses and are sick due to sins commited ere long before they were every born.
Some people can't seem to get over an illness due to sins such as unforgiveness, or other unknown things that only God and they with prayer can find out.
Jesus forgave the sins of any He healed. That's in the Bible.
Of course Christians will get sick or can get sick though not fault of their own as we all live in a fallen world. We can be healed, of many things if we ask in faith.
Many times Christians are not healed because they do lack real faith in that area. Or they easily just decide that God must want them to suffer and bear their burden.
The Bible says that God's will is not for us to be sick. Of course we all will eventually die in the flesh and that will have some kind of medical cause.
If it's a Christians' time to go home, then God will not be healing them.
Maybe God wants that person to learn somethings while they are sick, but it's not God's will that we remain sick for all time. Satan loves it when Christians are sick and likes to make them think it's God's will.
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
:
We are healed from our sin and seperation from God, so by Jesus' death we are made alive to God.
READ THE VERSE IN CONTEXT
IF you do you CAN NOT come to the conclusion that he means PHYSICAL healing, but rather SPIRITUAL.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
My husband says you need to get saved and have a real born again experience and then you will know the Resurrection Power. [/QUOTE]
We walk by "faith" not feelings. I sugjest you and your husband read prayerfully.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5305860
now stop your sillyness. [/QB][/QUOTE]
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
"But whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. WE all with unveiled faces are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, this is from the Lord who is the Spirit."
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for; EVIDENCE of things unseen."
BY FAITH IN HEBREWS 11TH CHAPTER SHOWS FAITH IN ACTION.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
We are healed from our sin and seperation from God, so by Jesus' death we are made alive to God.
READ THE VERSE IN CONTEXT
IF you do you CAN NOT come to the conclusion that he means PHYSICAL healing, but rather SPIRITUAL.
NO WPARR, WE ARE FORGIVEN OUR SINS AND ALLOWED ACCESS TO GOD THROUGH CHRIST. OUR SINS CAN'T BE HEALED. OUR SINS ARE CARRIED AS FAR AWAY AS THE EAST IS FROM THE WEST. WE ARE FORGIVEN OUR SINS.
HEALING COMES FROM BEING FORGIVEN OUR SINS.
JESUS DID PHYSICAL HEALINGS. PETER, PAUL, AND OTHER DID PHYSICAL HEALINGS. THE TWO GO HAND IN HAND.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
My husband says you need to get saved and have a real born again experience and then you will know the Resurrection Power.
We walk by "faith" not feelings. I sugjest you and your husband read prayerfully.
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=5305860
now stop your sillyness. [/QUOTE]
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
"But whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. WE all with unveiled faces are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, this is from the Lord who is the Spirit."
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for; EVIDENCE of things unseen."
BY FAITH IN HEBREWS 11TH CHAPTER SHOWS FAITH IN ACTION. [/QB][/QUOTE]
And to what "veil" do you speak?
My reading , studing, and understanding of the Faith in Heberws is that some got sawn asunder!
No physical help.
Also~
Why are you shouting?
Do ~U~ think you scare me?
And as to the "veil" why do you think it was worn?
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
:
I agree Jesus heals physically
BUT THOSE VERSE DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT SUPPORT THAT
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
Jas.5
1. [14] Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
now watch this~
[15] And the prayer of faith shall SAVE the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Where is the real healing being made? In the Body?
OR
The SOUL.............
Let me remind all ~U~ faith healers....
Heb.9
1. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
~U~ can't heal yourself out of that now can you.
Posted by ^AngelofLight^ (Member # 5152) on
:
Everyone claims that others are false, and that their own are truly the righteous. You all sound like a bunch of biblical politicians to me..spin..spin...spin...the words of the bible, who will it point the finger toward next? Who is really headed for damnation? I don't believe any of you know the true word of god, only the words as you interpret them. I listen to no man. I close my ears to all your noise, so that I may hear the voice that guides me. The one I was born recognizing and have not since forgotten in some quest for hypocritical righteousness.
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
:
But you are pointing OWN finger, so you are just as guilty of hypocritical righteousness as the people you are accusing.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
"But whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. WE all with unveiled faces are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, this is from the Lord who is the Spirit."
quote:
from wildB:
And to what "veil" do you speak?
My reading , studing, and understanding of the Faith in Heberws is that some got sawn asunder!
No physical help.
Also~
Why are you shouting?
Do ~U~ think you scare me?
And as to the "veil" why do you think it was worn?
I wrote in caps to have those words stand out.
The "veil" spoken of by Paul in Corinthians is a spiritual veil of blindness. It also represents the Veil that was rent in the Holy of Holies when Jesus died on the cross, and this opened the veil to believers to be able to enter in and have communion directly with God through Jesus the mediator.
When you change the meaning of scripture and say that healing doesn't mean actual healing. You have a veil over your understanding.
If you read Hebrews chapter 11, it outlines the Old Testament saints who put their faith in action.
We have the promise of healing through Christ's atonement and forgiveness of sins both.
We are also told that as Christians we will be subject to persecution by the world. Yes saints were executed and tortured and still are to this day.
But notice it's not God who tortures them. It's the world and the ruler of this world.
Having an illness is not considered persecution by the world. No one is making one sick because they are a Christian, so to act like one is suffering for Christ when they are sick is wrong thinking.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
I agree Jesus heals physically
BUT THOSE VERSE DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT SUPPORT THAT
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
I pray that one day the POWER of those verses will sink in for you.
Healing means healing. It's not a hidden concept in the Bible.
Forgiveness is a separate issue. Both were bought by the Lamb when He died on the cross and then conquered sin and death.
If Jesus only came to redeem us for forgiveness of sins, then why was His ministry about healing and then forgiving sins?
If Jesus came only to forgive sins and leave us the way He found us, doesn't that negate being tranformed by the renewing of our minds?
Jesus is never recorded as needing to heal Peter physically. Jesus is recorded casting out 7 demons from Mary Magdalene.
Who was the first person that actually SAW Jesus after he Resurrected?
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Jas.5
1. [14] Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
now watch this~
[15] And the prayer of faith shall SAVE the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Where is the real healing being made? In the Body?
OR
The SOUL.............
Let me remind all ~U~ faith healers....
Heb.9
1. [27] And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
~U~ can't heal yourself out of that now can you.
Don't be so close-minded. You see only one part of the whole picture here.
The prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up means literally healed of their affliction. Forgiveness goes hand in hand with healing as the person being healed will need to repent and then he is forgiven also.
You need to realize the fullness of being redeemed from our sins encompasses. Sins cause stress, stress causes diseases. When we repent of our sins, God can forgive us, and then the physcial impacts of those sins can be redeemed also.
The impact of sin is not on an island, it affects every area of our lives, spiritual, mental, emotional and physical.
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
:
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
NOT what you WANT to read into a verse.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT
NOT what you WANT to read into a verse.
Let it be unto you according to your faith. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
2 Corinthians 3:16-18
"But whenever a person turns to the Lord the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. WE all with unveiled faces are reflecting the glory of the Lord and are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, this is from the Lord who is the Spirit."
quote:
from wildB:
And to what "veil" do you speak?
My reading , studing, and understanding of the Faith in Heberws is that some got sawn asunder!
No physical help.
Also~
Why are you shouting?
Do ~U~ think you scare me?
And as to the "veil" why do you think it was worn?
I wrote in caps to have those words stand out.
The "veil" spoken of by Paul in Corinthians is a spiritual veil of blindness. It also represents the Veil that was rent in the Holy of Holies when Jesus died on the cross, and this opened the veil to believers to be able to enter in and have communion directly with God through Jesus the mediator.
When you change the meaning of scripture and say that healing doesn't mean actual healing. You have a veil over your understanding.
If you read Hebrews chapter 11, it outlines the Old Testament saints who put their faith in action.
We have the promise of healing through Christ's atonement and forgiveness of sins both.
We are also told that as Christians we will be subject to persecution by the world. Yes saints were executed and tortured and still are to this day.
But notice it's not God who tortures them. It's the world and the ruler of this world.
Having an illness is not considered persecution by the world. No one is making one sick because they are a Christian, so to act like one is suffering for Christ when they are sick is wrong thinking.
Well I guess there is nothing left for you to do then to drink some poison as you handel a deadly snake.
Mark.16
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Stop your sillyness.
Posted by ^AngelofLight^ (Member # 5152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
But you are pointing OWN finger, so you are just as guilty of hypocritical righteousness as the people you are accusing.
Pointing "own" finger, was that the beginning to some ancient chinese proverb leftover from last nights fortune cookie?
I used no quotes of the bible to steer anyone into my own version of what it means. I lack the sheer superb and divine presumptuousness for the task.
I believe nobody. To me you may as well all be false prophets clamouring amongst yourselves and vying fruitlessly for a secure position in heaven. I have no platform, no organisation, no need to instill the fear of god in exchange for a buck. What I need to know of god will not be heard from the mouths of men.It will be heard in the darkness of my own nights.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ^AngelofLight^:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
But you are pointing OWN finger, so you are just as guilty of hypocritical righteousness as the people you are accusing.
Pointing "own" finger, was that the beginning to some ancient chinese proverb leftover from last nights fortune cookie?
I used no quotes of the bible to steer anyone into my own version of what it means. I lack the sheer superb and divine presumptuousness for the task.
I believe nobody. To me you may as well all be false prophets clamouring amongst yourselves and vying fruitlessly for a secure position in heaven. I have no platform, no organisation, no need to instill the fear of god in exchange for a buck. What I need to know of god will not be heard from the mouths of men.It will be heard in the darkness of my own nights.
~
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
[/qb]
Well I guess there is nothing left for you to do then to drink some poison as you handel a deadly snake.
Mark.16
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Stop your sillyness. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I just spent 10 days in a Central America country. Many I went with were ill for several days after returning home to America. They got sick from contaminated food or water. I ate the same foods as they did and drank the same water.
I never go sick.
I've never had to deal with a deadly snake yet, but I trust God for that too.
It's very silly not to trust in God.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Well I guess there is nothing left for you to do then to drink some poison as you handel a deadly snake.
Mark.16
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Stop your sillyness. [/QB]
I just spent 10 days in a Central America country. Many I went with were ill for several days after returning home to America. They got sick from contaminated food or water. I ate the same foods as they did and drank the same water.
I never go sick.
I've never had to deal with a deadly snake yet, but I trust God for that too.
It's very silly not to trust in God. [/QB][/QUOTE]
~
What part of DEADLY don't you get? Someone getting sick from contaminated food or water from the same area you were at does not quite make you blessed because you didnt.
Now ingest something that has a LD50 rateing and I will be impressed with your sillyness.
What does LD50 mean?
LD stands for "Lethal Dose". LD50 is the amount of a material, given all at once, which causes the death of 50% (one half) of a group of test animals. The LD50 is one way to measure the short-term poisoning potential (acute toxicity) of a material.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
wildb:
Again, if you are unable to believe God's Word, I would call that silly.
Let it be according to your faith
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
:
So iiiifffff "healed by His stripes" means physical.
Then how did healing take place before His death?
huuuuummmmmmm?????
Posted by ^AngelofLight^ (Member # 5152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by ^AngelofLight^:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
But you are pointing OWN finger, so you are just as guilty of hypocritical righteousness as the people you are accusing.
Pointing "own" finger, was that the beginning to some ancient chinese proverb leftover from last nights fortune cookie?
I used no quotes of the bible to steer anyone into my own version of what it means. I lack the sheer superb and divine presumptuousness for the task.
I believe nobody. To me you may as well all be false prophets clamouring amongst yourselves and vying fruitlessly for a secure position in heaven. I have no platform, no organisation, no need to instill the fear of god in exchange for a buck. What I need to know of god will not be heard from the mouths of men.It will be heard in the darkness of my own nights.
~
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
How surprising.....a biblical quote. No real input of your capabilities of interpreting even a Dick and Jane book. You latch on to the word darkness, and find a few paragraphs that will suddenly *presto* prove that I am evil? Hardly worth an exclamation point. Word spinning to little meaning or effect or bearing on the discussion. What a cushion from any logical discussion, inapplicable heavy words from the book.
Thine eye is just fine. Thine eye is undeluded and open to clarity. You would no doubt find some reason to call the resurrected mary herself evil, if she kept her identity from you. Lash her with a few ill placed biblical quotes.
Your understanding does not extend so far, it is mere delusion.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
2 Corinthians 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
If one does not follow the Word of God and the God of the Word, then they are under the direction and control of the god of this world and open to demonic influences.
Jesus Christ is the ONLY pathway to God, and those who reject Him are condemned already.
Posted by ^AngelofLight^ (Member # 5152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
2 Corinthians 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Bravo. Keep the quotes coming. Surely my username is a fabulous indication that I am evil incarnate, Satan herself. Man's interpretation of the word of god, condemnation for those who doubt his divine message is uncorrupted and delivered without ill motive and prejudice, by man. Mangle and contort the words as you must, to suit your unholy purposes. Spirituality is lost on you.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
2 Timothy 4:1-8
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
AOL:
Bravo. Keep the quotes coming. Surely my username is a fabulous indication that I am evil incarnate, Satan herself. Man's interpretation of the word of god, condemnation for those who doubt his divine message is uncorrupted and delivered without ill motive and prejudice, by man. Mangle and contort the words as you must, to suit your unholy purposes. Spirituality is lost on you
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If one is without Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, our soul's Redeeemer, Justifier, Sanctifier, then one's righteousness is as filty rags in the eyes of God and that one stands condemned for having rejected Christ.
Your "spirituality" is not worth a hill of beans, and is a pathway of destruction. There is NOT one truth of God contrary to His Word, and there is NOT one pathway to God except through Christ Jesus our Lord and the redemption found ONLY in HIM.
Posted by ^AngelofLight^ (Member # 5152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
2 Timothy 4:1-8
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
AOL:
Bravo. Keep the quotes coming. Surely my username is a fabulous indication that I am evil incarnate, Satan herself. Man's interpretation of the word of god, condemnation for those who doubt his divine message is uncorrupted and delivered without ill motive and prejudice, by man. Mangle and contort the words as you must, to suit your unholy purposes. Spirituality is lost on you
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If one is without Jesus, God manifest in the flesh, our soul's Redeeemer, Justifier, Sanctifier, then one's righteousness is as filty rags in the eyes of God and that one stands condemned for having rejected Christ.
Your "spirituality" is not worth a hill of beans, and is a pathway of destruction. There is NOT one truth of God contrary to His Word, and there is NOT one pathway to God except through Christ Jesus our Lord and the redemption found ONLY in HIM.
and there is NOT one pathway to God except through Christ Jesus our Lord and the redemption found ONLY in HIM.
ONLY IN HIM.
There you go confusing yourselves with christ again. Your word is not his word, and they only fool the weak and confused. Say what you will of my spirituality, since you know nothing of it. You will not lead me to god.......god, will lead me to god.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
God's Word stands and he who rejects it will fall for anything.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ^AngelofLight^:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by ^AngelofLight^:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
But you are pointing OWN finger, so you are just as guilty of hypocritical righteousness as the people you are accusing.
Pointing "own" finger, was that the beginning to some ancient chinese proverb leftover from last nights fortune cookie?
I used no quotes of the bible to steer anyone into my own version of what it means. I lack the sheer superb and divine presumptuousness for the task.
I believe nobody. To me you may as well all be false prophets clamouring amongst yourselves and vying fruitlessly for a secure position in heaven. I have no platform, no organisation, no need to instill the fear of god in exchange for a buck. What I need to know of god will not be heard from the mouths of men.It will be heard in the darkness of my own nights.
~
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
How surprising.....a biblical quote. No real input of your capabilities of interpreting even a Dick and Jane book. You latch on to the word darkness, and find a few paragraphs that will suddenly *presto* prove that I am evil? Hardly worth an exclamation point. Word spinning to little meaning or effect or bearing on the discussion. What a cushion from any logical discussion, inapplicable heavy words from the book.
Thine eye is just fine. Thine eye is undeluded and open to clarity. You would no doubt find some reason to call the resurrected mary herself evil, if she kept her identity from you. Lash her with a few ill placed biblical quotes.
Your understanding does not extend so far, it is mere delusion.
Delusional~OK~Marry herself has not been resurrected~yet.
The 1st reserrection happened at Christ's death.
When captivity was led captive. Marry was still alive. She did not have part of this reserection.
So please do tell the baseball fans to which reserection you use?
"[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,"
Now stop your sillyness~
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
The things that are missed in this thread are amazing!!!!!!
Drew has tried to show this.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
This verse is key to the very heresy that this thread was opened with. Look at what is said here in context!!!
He was wounded for OUR transgressions - Who is our in this CONTEXT?
The HEBREWS. Isaiah was written to the Hebrews; before the church. I am not saying that it does not apply to the church. Do not misunderstand. It does and Peter confirms this in the NT. But hear me out please...
He was killed for their transgressions? NO! He was wounded and HIS blood was shed in the wounding folks.
He was bruised... for OUR Iniquity. Our = The people to whom Isaiah prophesied. BRUISED for iniquity.
The chastisement (PUNISHMENT)of OUR (THE HEBREWS)peace (SHALOM _ COMPLETENESS_ WHOLENESS)was upon him.
and....
WITH his stripes we are healed.
WITH HIS STRIPES WE (THE HEBREWS) are 07495 apr rapha’ raw-faw’ or hpr raphah raw-faw’
Healed - in the PASSIVE, PERFECT Mood. This means it is done to the object of the verb (the Hebrews) and it is complete now. A done deal.
First, you have to know that before Christ was risen and the Gospel taken to the Gentiles, this could not apply to you the church because you were not called to God and relationship with HIM.
This is when ALL MEN were called to the Cross and to reconcilliation...
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This is the making of Christ to be sin that Isaiah is prophesying. This whole chapter 53 is the picture of that .... the making of Christ to be sin. We see that they (the Hebrews thought he was smitten of God) (but they find that this is no the case that it was their sin being laid upon his flesh that with the shedding of his blood before he ever made it to the cross, God was healing them.....making them whole, reconciling them to HIMself.
Salvation is a multifaceted thing. They had a relationship that was unique to them. Out of the whole of the people of the earth they were called to be HIS People and HE their God; there was a covenant and it was broken... They were broken in this life and out of right relationship with their GOD.
And before he gave HIS life; HE gave HIS blood and HIS body BROKEN FOR YOU... REMEMBER THOSE WORDS?
THIS IS MY BODY BROKEN FOR YOU... this is in Isaiah the breaking of HIS BODY AND BY THAT they were healed. Reconciled.
While HE still yet was alive, they were reconciled.
THEN..THEN THEN... When HE Had done that...He gave even more. HIS life.
Do you not understand that the reason we need a savior is because we only have one life and it is not enough?
The sin of Adam born in me is enough to take my life. So I give it when I die.
Then what is there to pay for my own sins for which the price is death?
Christ gave his body to be broken to pay for their iniquity, the punishment of their peace (incompleteness, transgressions - THEIR SINS.
Then HE gave his life for the sin of ADAM in all of us.
There are 2 sacrifices here. One in HIS beating and cursing and physical punishment and shedding of sinless blood and the second HIS life for to take away the sin of the WHOLE world not just the justified. The sin of Adam in even the heathen that will never be saved was paid for by the life of Jesus. This is HOW the heathen can justly die for his OWN sins.
BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKE AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.
; and with his stripes we are healed.
WITH the stripes... the breaking of the BODY, WE (the people of God) are made whole to be be the people of God.
The Hebrew language does not have a different word for healing of the physical body and healing of the spiritual body.
Here you see Rapha used for physical healing:
Leviticus 13:18 The flesh also, in which, even in the skin thereof, was a boil, and is healed <07495>,
Here it is used to repair a broken altar:
1 Kings 18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired <07495> the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
Here it is used to speak of reconciliation:
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed <07495>.
The word means to make un broken - Christ bore upon HIS body the sins of the people that they might be restored to God as HIS people.
Then HE died - that they might live eternal life.
It is SOOOOO important to understand that all these things happened before Christ was laid in the TOMB. IT was a DONE DEAL. HE WAS SUFFICIENT. Nothing more was needed of HIM; HIS sacrifice was accepted:
This is shown here:
Isaiah 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
This is not soul as some esoteric thing... this is his life...a living soul. Do you see that this says that God shall see the travail of his life - the punishment he suffered.... and BY HIS (God's knowledge) (Of Christ's innocence) the RIGHTEOUS Servant JESUS shall JUSTIFY MANY. Justifiy.... not all are justified. This is speaking to the acceptance of the breaking of the BODY of Jesus for the sins of Israel to reconcile them to God... that when He then gave HIS life, they were justified, their own sins and the sins of Adam paid, that when HE rose, he would become a life giving Spirit to those who were waiting in the rest with their fathers and us who would be called and come later.
The point is that Jesus had done all he needed to do when He went INTO the tomb. He had the keys of death and hell in his hands.... he was INNOCENT. Death and HEll cannot take nor hold that which is innocent of SIN.
The devil has never HAD the keys to death and HEll. GOD ALMIGHTY IS the only one that HAS ever had those keys!!!! God alone decides when life passes from this earth. AND AND AND GOD ALMIGHTY ALONE is the ONE who can send the soul to HELL!
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Fear Satan? NO!!!!!!!!! Fear GOD it is the beginning of Wisdom!
Jesus was not murdered. He GAVE HIS LIFE. ONLY GOD can chose the moment of death.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
Death is the separation of the SPIRIT from the BODY.
Here is Jesus giving HIS life:
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
ON THE CROSS IN FULL AUTHORITY OVER DEATH AND HELL!!!!!
Now, on this thing of healing... lets look at Peter:
To Whom does Peter speak?
1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peter speaks to those who have been alienated from the Commonwealth of Israel... Strangers... the same as Paul speaks to here in Ephesus:
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
This is to us to those who are predestined to become the Church. This is to you and me...
He speaks to the BORN AGAIN:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
He speaks to us who were not a people of God; but have become a people of God:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
He speaks of right authority in our lives....
1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Peter is saying ... you... you who are among the Gentiles, who are as strangers, but are a PEOPLE Of GOD....ACT LIKE IT!!!!
1Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
(CHRIST SUFFERED FOR US ALSO -HIS Stripes - WITH which the Hebrews were reconciled are the same stripes with which we are adopted! Made no more strangers but ABRAHAM's Seed!!!!)
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
(DONT MISS THIS!!! Did you see in Isaiah where it was his beatings that he suffered for the people to whom Isaiah prophesied? Now look... on the tree HE bore OUR SINS. He was punished on the way to the cross for the sins of Israel and on the cross for the sins of the gentiles, and then HE gave HIS life for the sins in all of us that came by Adam.)
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
BY not with here, but BY HIS Stripes we too are healed. But what does this healing mean???? The CONTEXT below tells us.........
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Not this passage nor the other passage in Isaiah speaks to physical healing of the physical ailments of the BODY; You just cannot go there with out wresting these scriptures out of Context and if you do that you miss what Christ has DONE!!!!
This physical body of yours and mine is meant to corrupt - it is meant to die. Why? Because it is the seed to be sown that our spiritual body that lives inside it can be redeemed!
Your physical body is going to turn to dust; this is how the sin in the flesh is purged. Just as Jesus purged our sins from HIS flesh.... Jesus was raised in the same body that he died in because HIS flesh was without sin... not so with yours. Your body will see corruption. His did not. If you die before he comes it will be because your body needs to be sown.
Does God heal yes, you bet! GOD heals, when and whom he wills as it serves HIS purpose, but there is nothing that says that we are guaranteed to have lives that are without physical ailment. This body has sin in its members; and this body is earthly and it is meant to die. People are not sick because they lack faith; people are sick because we live wrong, eat wrong, pollute our environment and our food and our bodies and because of in in the world and in our members, but you are NOT your body! YOU are a living soul that is a new creature and in you is a spiritual body to be redeemed from this body of sin and death and a Spirit that is the Spirit of God.
Yes, God wills us to proper and be in health... but according to the prospering of our souls!!! The more we walk in HIS will and HIS ways and according to HIS commands and in obedience and right authority and not ignoring the wisdom of the scriptures the more we will walk in health and prosperity.
Eternal life begins here. Amen. You live now in a heavenly Kingdom and should be living in HIS rest; but you live this life in a earthly body that is meant to corrupt and eventually to be shed like a chameleon sheds his skin.
These scriptures in Isaiah and in 1 Peter speak to the healing of our relationship with God... to the healing of our brokenness from HIS life... they are about our reconciliation to BE HIS PEOPLE and HE our GOD!
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The things that are missed in this thread are amazing!!!!!!
Drew has tried to show this.
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
This verse is key to the very heresy that this thread was opened with. Look at what is said here in context!!!
He was wounded for OUR transgressions - Who is our in this CONTEXT?
The HEBREWS. Isaiah was written to the Hebrews; before the church. I am not saying that it does not apply to the church. Do not misunderstand. It does and Peter confirms this in the NT. But hear me out please...
He was killed for their transgressions? NO! He was wounded and HIS blood was shed in the wounding folks.
He was bruised... for OUR Iniquity. Our = The people to whom Isaiah prophesied. BRUISED for iniquity.
The chastisement (PUNISHMENT)of OUR (THE HEBREWS)peace (SHALOM _ COMPLETENESS_ WHOLENESS)was upon him.
and....
WITH his stripes we are healed.
WITH HIS STRIPES WE (THE HEBREWS) are 07495 apr rapha’ raw-faw’ or hpr raphah raw-faw’
Healed - in the PASSIVE, PERFECT Mood. This means it is done to the object of the verb (the Hebrews) and it is complete now. A done deal.
First, you have to know that before Christ was risen and the Gospel taken to the Gentiles, this could not apply to you the church because you were not called to God and relationship with HIM.
This is when ALL MEN were called to the Cross and to reconcilliation...
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This is the making of Christ to be sin that Isaiah is prophesying. This whole chapter 53 is the picture of that .... the making of Christ to be sin. We see that they (the Hebrews thought he was smitten of God) (but they find that this is no the case that it was their sin being laid upon his flesh that with the shedding of his blood before he ever made it to the cross, God was healing them.....making them whole, reconciling them to HIMself.
Salvation is a multifaceted thing. They had a relationship that was unique to them. Out of the whole of the people of the earth they were called to be HIS People and HE their God; there was a covenant and it was broken... They were broken in this life and out of right relationship with their GOD.
And before he gave HIS life; HE gave HIS blood and HIS body BROKEN FOR YOU... REMEMBER THOSE WORDS?
THIS IS MY BODY BROKEN FOR YOU... this is in Isaiah the breaking of HIS BODY AND BY THAT they were healed. Reconciled.
While HE still yet was alive, they were reconciled.
THEN..THEN THEN... When HE Had done that...He gave even more. HIS life.
Do you not understand that the reason we need a savior is because we only have one life and it is not enough?
The sin of Adam born in me is enough to take my life. So I give it when I die.
Then what is there to pay for my own sins for which the price is death?
Christ gave his body to be broken to pay for their iniquity, the punishment of their peace (incompleteness, transgressions - THEIR SINS.
Then HE gave his life for the sin of ADAM in all of us.
There are 2 sacrifices here. One in HIS beating and cursing and physical punishment and shedding of sinless blood and the second HIS life for to take away the sin of the WHOLE world not just the justified. The sin of Adam in even the heathen that will never be saved was paid for by the life of Jesus. This is HOW the heathen can justly die for his OWN sins.
BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKE AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.
; and with his stripes we are healed.
WITH the stripes... the breaking of the BODY, WE (the people of God) are made whole to be be the people of God.
The Hebrew language does not have a different word for healing of the physical body and healing of the spiritual body.
Here you see Rapha used for physical healing:
Leviticus 13:18 The flesh also, in which, even in the skin thereof, was a boil, and is healed <07495>,
Here it is used to repair a broken altar:
1 Kings 18:30 And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired <07495> the altar of the LORD that was broken down.
Here it is used to speak of reconciliation:
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed <07495>.
The word means to make un broken - Christ bore upon HIS body the sins of the people that they might be restored to God as HIS people.
Then HE died - that they might live eternal life.
It is SOOOOO important to understand that all these things happened before Christ was laid in the TOMB. IT was a DONE DEAL. HE WAS SUFFICIENT. Nothing more was needed of HIM; HIS sacrifice was accepted:
This is shown here:
Isaiah 53:10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
This is not soul as some esoteric thing... this is his life...a living soul. Do you see that this says that God shall see the travail of his life - the punishment he suffered.... and BY HIS (God's knowledge) (Of Christ's innocence) the RIGHTEOUS Servant JESUS shall JUSTIFY MANY. Justifiy.... not all are justified. This is speaking to the acceptance of the breaking of the BODY of Jesus for the sins of Israel to reconcile them to God... that when He then gave HIS life, they were justified, their own sins and the sins of Adam paid, that when HE rose, he would become a life giving Spirit to those who were waiting in the rest with their fathers and us who would be called and come later.
The point is that Jesus had done all he needed to do when He went INTO the tomb. He had the keys of death and hell in his hands.... he was INNOCENT. Death and HEll cannot take nor hold that which is innocent of SIN.
The devil has never HAD the keys to death and HEll. GOD ALMIGHTY IS the only one that HAS ever had those keys!!!! God alone decides when life passes from this earth. AND AND AND GOD ALMIGHTY ALONE is the ONE who can send the soul to HELL!
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Fear Satan? NO!!!!!!!!! Fear GOD it is the beginning of Wisdom!
Jesus was not murdered. He GAVE HIS LIFE. ONLY GOD can chose the moment of death.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Ecclesiastes 8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
Death is the separation of the SPIRIT from the BODY.
Here is Jesus giving HIS life:
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
ON THE CROSS IN FULL AUTHORITY OVER DEATH AND HELL!!!!!
Now, on this thing of healing... lets look at Peter:
To Whom does Peter speak?
1 ¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peter speaks to those who have been alienated from the Commonwealth of Israel... Strangers... the same as Paul speaks to here in Ephesus:
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
This is to us to those who are predestined to become the Church. This is to you and me...
He speaks to the BORN AGAIN:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
He speaks to us who were not a people of God; but have become a people of God:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
He speaks of right authority in our lives....
1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13 ¶ Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
Peter is saying ... you... you who are among the Gentiles, who are as strangers, but are a PEOPLE Of GOD....ACT LIKE IT!!!!
1Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
(CHRIST SUFFERED FOR US ALSO -HIS Stripes - WITH which the Hebrews were reconciled are the same stripes with which we are adopted! Made no more strangers but ABRAHAM's Seed!!!!)
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
(DONT MISS THIS!!! Did you see in Isaiah where it was his beatings that he suffered for the people to whom Isaiah prophesied? Now look... on the tree HE bore OUR SINS. He was punished on the way to the cross for the sins of Israel and on the cross for the sins of the gentiles, and then HE gave HIS life for the sins in all of us that came by Adam.)
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
BY not with here, but BY HIS Stripes we too are healed. But what does this healing mean???? The CONTEXT below tells us.........
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Not this passage nor the other passage in Isaiah speaks to physical healing of the physical ailments of the BODY; You just cannot go there with out wresting these scriptures out of Context and if you do that you miss what Christ has DONE!!!!
This physical body of yours and mine is meant to corrupt - it is meant to die. Why? Because it is the seed to be sown that our spiritual body that lives inside it can be redeemed!
Your physical body is going to turn to dust; this is how the sin in the flesh is purged. Just as Jesus purged our sins from HIS flesh.... Jesus was raised in the same body that he died in because HIS flesh was without sin... not so with yours. Your body will see corruption. His did not. If you die before he comes it will be because your body needs to be sown.
Does God heal yes, you bet! GOD heals, when and whom he wills as it serves HIS purpose, but there is nothing that says that we are guaranteed to have lives that are without physical ailment. This body has sin in its members; and this body is earthly and it is meant to die. People are not sick because they lack faith; people are sick because we live wrong, eat wrong, pollute our environment and our food and our bodies and because of in in the world and in our members, but you are NOT your body! YOU are a living soul that is a new creature and in you is a spiritual body to be redeemed from this body of sin and death and a Spirit that is the Spirit of God.
Yes, God wills us to proper and be in health... but according to the prospering of our souls!!! The more we walk in HIS will and HIS ways and according to HIS commands and in obedience and right authority and not ignoring the wisdom of the scriptures the more we will walk in health and prosperity.
Eternal life begins here. Amen. You live now in a heavenly Kingdom and should be living in HIS rest; but you live this life in a earthly body that is meant to corrupt and eventually to be shed like a chameleon sheds his skin.
These scriptures in Isaiah and in 1 Peter speak to the healing of our relationship with God... to the healing of our brokenness from HIS life... they are about our reconciliation to BE HIS PEOPLE and HE our GOD!
~U~talk to much. imo put it in a can. Condensed milk.
That can be watered later.
sorry for my sillyness.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
What an edifying comment WildB. Absolutely full of substance! Thank you. I thought your comments in this thread were right on target. I was surprised and impressed with what you had written. This last one is much more what I am accustomed to seeing from you. Did someone hijack your computer the other day and post in your stead? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
What an edifying comment WildB. Absolutely full of substance! Thank you. I thought your comments in this thread were right on target. I was surprised and impressed with what you had written. This last one is much more what I am accustomed to seeing from you. Did someone hijack your computer the other day and post in your stead?
I am sorry~ forgive me.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
Sister Linda, That was an Awsome Post (the 'long' one that is ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
) Thank you for expounding on those points! I'm gonna print that one out and read it over again!
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Amen Sister Linda!!!!!!!!!!
The context is the restoration of those separated from God. As Brother Walt has said, Context!!
Well written and well posted Sis. God bless you.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ^AngelofLight^:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
2 Corinthians 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Bravo. Keep the quotes coming. Surely my username is a fabulous indication that I am evil incarnate, Satan herself. Man's interpretation of the word of god, condemnation for those who doubt his divine message is uncorrupted and delivered without ill motive and prejudice, by man. Mangle and contort the words as you must, to suit your unholy purposes. Spirituality is lost on you.
(bold added by SoftTouch)
Dude (or is it Dudette? One gets confused reading your profile)
Satan "Herself"??? Now where in the Bible does it say that Satan is female? OR are you saying that "You" are female?
Your words seem full of New Age overtones (as does your profile). If that's the spirituality you're talking about, then yes, it is lost on me - and Thanks be to God Almighty for that! If I'm wrong on this then please let me know.
I have two questions for you. Who do you say that Jesus of Nazareth is? And who is HE to you?
Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on
:
A third question is
Is The Bible THE Living Active God Breathed Word?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
A third question is
Is The Bible THE Living Active God Breathed Word?
Stop your sillyness.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
So iiiifffff "healed by His stripes" means physical.
Then how did healing take place before His death?
huuuuummmmmmm?????
Any healing occurred through the Levinical priests and the Law.
You may notice that not many healings are recorded in the Old Testament.
When healings occurred in the Old Testament is was still a manifestaion of that person's faith and belief in God. Naman comes to mind as he washed in the dirty ol' river to get healed.
We're talking about miraculous healings, not (every day God created human immune responses) that God put in us to help us survive.
The Levites priests used to separate people who had lesions on their body and offer sacrifices for that person.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Amen Sister Linda!!!!!!!!!!
The context is the restoration of those separated from God. As Brother Walt has said, Context!!
Well written and well posted Sis. God bless you.
Whoso ever is restored to God can not help but be healed.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
Linda,
As the soul prospers so will the body.
Yes our earthly bodies will be dust after we die and we will die if not raptured out.
God wrote so we could live in this earthly life as well, not just put all of the promises for earth on hold until we die.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Linda,
As the soul prospers so will the body.
Yes our earthly bodies will be dust after we die and we will die if not raptured out.
God wrote so we could live in this earthly life as well, not just put all of the promises for earth on hold until we die.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
Sory~ It is as the body of the fleash grows weak that the spirit man with Gods Spirit stands forward in eternal reason.
Fleash can only be healed for a season and a little time.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
So iiiifffff "healed by His stripes" means physical.
Then how did healing take place before His death?
huuuuummmmmmm?????
Any healing occurred through the Levinical priests and the Law.
You may notice that not many healings are recorded in the Old Testament.
When healings occurred in the Old Testament is was still a manifestaion of that person's faith and belief in God. Naman comes to mind as he washed in the dirty ol' river to get healed.
We're talking about miraculous healings, not (every day God created human immune responses) that God put in us to help us survive.
The Levites priests used to separate people who had lesions on their body and offer sacrifices for that person.
I thought of this afterwards:
Moses lifted up the serpent on his staff, and the people who had faith to look up to it were healed of their snake bites.
God struck the Israelites with plague of snakes because they grumbled against the Lord.
God healed those who wished to repent and look up.
He healed them so they could take the Promised Land.
God heals us so we can also take the Promised Land.
He said "occupy unitl I come."
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Linda,
As the soul prospers so will the body.
Yes our earthly bodies will be dust after we die and we will die if not raptured out.
God wrote so we could live in this earthly life as well, not just put all of the promises for earth on hold until we die.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
Sory~ It is as the body of the fleash grows weak that the spirit man with Gods Spirit stands forward in eternal reason.
Fleash can only be healed for a season and a little time.
Just because the believer inherits Eternal Life, doesn't mean we have to wait until we are dead in the grave to experience Communion and fellowship with the Lord and as God is the Father of Lights and gives every good gift, from above.
Some of you people need to change your receivers. ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
I thought of this afterwards:
Moses lifted up the serpent on his staff, and the people who had faith to look up to it were healed of their snake bites.
God struck the Israelites with plague of snakes because they grumbled against the Lord.
God healed those who wished to repent and look up.
He healed them so they could take the Promised Land.
God heals us so we can also take the Promised Land.
He said "occupy unitl I come."
Please do not misunderstand. I believe in miracles; I believe in divine healing; I have been healed. I believe that God heals whom he wills when He wills as it serves HIS purpose.
But this above quote is not doctrinally sound.
Our Promised land is not here. We are citizens now of a heavenly kingdom. There is no promised land for us here. The Kingdom of God on earth is within you and comes not with observation, but with Peace and Joy and Power in the Holy Ghost. And we for the greater part so not experience it or have a clue about any of these because we do not understand that church is a people and not a place or that we are to assemble or that there in refuge and provision in the assembly. The church is as sick and depressed and in bondage and broke and in sin and worldly and in debt and in divorce and in all manner of worldly things as the heathen world and does not prosper because do not understand living on earth from above; we do not understand that this earth is not our home nor the things of it including this earthen tent that we walk around in.
Yes, we occupy till HE comes, but what? Physical territory? I think not!
The church does NOT HAVE AN EARTHLY PROMISED LAND. This is borrowed land it belongs to the heathen right now and we will leave it when it is time to go... and this body too.
All I am saying is that our reward is not here. Jesus has it with HIM; Our home is not HERE it is there. We are to live as witness to the power of God on earth as we sojourn in the wilderness and we should live with power Amen... But that power is a power that means that we have peace and Joy 24/7 whether we be sick as a dog with a plague or burned upside down on a stake or live in box on the street or whether we be materially and physically blessed beyond our wildest imaginations. And we spend far too much time worrying about the physical things of this world.
Further, I am saying that these passages do not speak to the healing of disease literaly. They speak to the reconcillation of man and man's return to God's life and hello yes there is health and prosperity according to the degree that your soul prospers.
Is God still healing ? You betcha! Here is a scripture that talks about it.....
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Just dont quote Isaiah and Peter and go round telling people that if they had enough faith they would receive their healing because that is wresting these scriptures out of context.
We will all one day have manifestation of our healing when we are changed and we are redeemed from this earthly tent.
And that is not happening because you or I conjured up enough "faith" to receive it... it is happening because HE ROSE and GOD had enough mercy and grace on you and me to give us faith enough to believe it!!!
NO PROIMISED LAND HERE; OUR PROMISED LAND IS THERE! What we are promised here and have is peace and joy and power in the Holy Ghost... freedom from walking in bondage to our flesh and to sin and HIS mind and HIS seal and HIS indwelling HOLY Spirit our earnest deposit till the day of our redemption. And that is all we need come sickness disease plague flood homelessness, depression, persecution, inprisonment, torture, or any other unpleasant thing that may come.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
Just because the believer inherits Eternal Life, doesn't mean we have to wait until we are dead in the grave to experience Communion and fellowship with the Lord and as God is the Father of Lights and gives every good gift, from above.
It is rediculous of you to imply that this is what I or Drew or Walt or even WildB is saying!
In fact if you understand the position of the church in this life this picture you paint is impossible!!! We are NOW as HE is in heaven; WE are seated now in heavenly places; We are citizens now of Heaven above; We live now in the earth FROM heaven above.
That is exactly why all this business about name it claim it health wealth and glory for this earthen vessel is so obsurd! There is a whole genre out there that wants you to stay focused on this body of flesh and on this life of the world and on all manner of worldly things and that is exactly the opposite of what and where and HOW we should be living. We live HERE from ABOVE, we do not live there from here. ANd we do not live here from here as the heathen do and the pragmatic, purpose driven, name it claim it seekr sensitive psychobabble teaching mega church tv preachers want you to believe.
If you cant be dead broke and full of peace and joy and you cant be sicker than dog or in more pain than a prisioner of war in a torture chamber and be filled with peace and Joy then yoou are missing something.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Just because the believer inherits Eternal Life, doesn't mean we have to wait until we are dead in the grave to experience Communion and fellowship with the Lord and as God is the Father of Lights and gives every good gift, from above.
It is rediculous of you to imply that this is what I or Drew or Walt or even WildB is saying!
In fact if you understand the position of the church in this life this picture you paint is impossible!!! We are NOW as HE is in heaven; WE are seated now in heavenly places; We are citizens now of Heaven above; We live now in the earth FROM heaven above.
That is exactly why all this business about name it claim it health wealth and glory for this earthen vessel is so obsurd! There is a whole genre out there that wants you to stay focused on this body of flesh and on this life of the world and on all manner of worldly things and that is exactly the opposite of what and where and HOW we should be living. We live HERE from ABOVE, we do not live there from here. ANd we do not live here from here as the heathen do and the pragmatic, purpose driven, name it claim it seekr sensitive psychobabble teaching mega church tv preachers want you to believe.
If you cant be dead broke and full of peace and joy and you cant be sicker than dog or in more pain than a prisioner of war in a torture chamber and be filled with peace and Joy then yoou are missing something.
Yet you know all these things in your head and not your heart.
You have known them in your heart as you state you have been healed.
We have faith in God which comes from Christ who is the author of our faith. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and the mystery that was hidden until Christ of the gospel is: Christ in You the Hope of Glory.
Once one can know it in their heart and not just their brain, then everything is different.
WildB is pooh-poohing any kind of healing from what I read of his/hers posts.
Christ came and conquered sin and death and redeemed us back to Him.
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
If Adam and Eve had never sinned mankind would not be experiencing illness,or diseases.
With redemption comes healing,it's the natural outpouring of the blessing.
That's why missionaries see miracles. Those people in underdeveloped countries haven't been indoctrinated against healings. Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QUOTE]
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Just dont quote Isaiah and Peter and go round telling people that if they had enough faith they would receive their healing because that is wresting these scriptures out of context.
We will all one day have manifestation of our healing when we are changed and we are redeemed from this earthly tent.
And that is not happening because you or I conjured up enough "faith" to receive it... it is happening because HE ROSE and GOD had enough mercy and grace on you and me to give us faith enough to believe it!!!
NO PROIMISED LAND HERE; OUR PROMISED LAND IS THERE! What we are promised here and have is peace and joy and power in the Holy Ghost... freedom from walking in bondage to our flesh and to sin and HIS mind and HIS seal and HIS indwelling HOLY Spirit our earnest deposit till the day of our redemption. And that is all we need come sickness disease plague flood homelessness, depression, persecution, inprisonment, torture, or any other unpleasant thing that may come.
You say that one day, after we die on earth and go to heaven then we all will be healed, so that kind of gives credence to my statement you thought was ridiculous.
I'm not saying that one has to cough up enough Faith on their own, because they can't, do it.
Jesus is the Author of our faith. We go to Him and touch the Hem of His garment spiritually and ask Him to help our unbelief. He is the Source.
None of us can ever cough up enough faith in our own power.
What many Christian lack is knowledge about the things that Paul and Peter and the Gospels talk about in the spirit.
Yes a Christian can be chronically ill and still be a blessing and perhaps God is allowing it for His purposes, but most of the time or at least many times, Christians aren't a blessing when they are sick, as they cling to it as their thorn in the flesh when they need to be fighting it actively.
Thorn in the flesh is a doctine taught from one verse that Paul writes, and everyone lays claim to it.
Yes we enter the promised land when we enter into the Spiritual Kingdom of God on earth when we Worship God and obey God and walk staightly and keep in repentance. That's what I mean about entering the Promise Land.
Yes ,we occupy our little space on earth for Christ. Sorry we're still a human being at this time and not dead yet.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
So what was Timothy's problem? And Why didn't Paul say that to him instead of drink some wine?
Where does the Bible tell us that Believers will never suffer illness or sickness bodily once we're saved? (Plain scripture please... not spiritualized interpretations, thanks!)
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
So what was Timothy's problem? And Why didn't Paul say that to him instead of drink some wine?
Where does the Bible tell us that Believers will never suffer illness or sickness bodily once we're saved? (Plain scripture please... not spiritualized interpretations, thanks!)
Plain scripture on healing and forgiveness going hand in hand.
1. Mark 2:5-11
seeing their faith, Jesus told the paralytic,"Son your sins are forgiven."
BUT SOME OF THE SCRIBES WERE SITTING THERE, THINKING TO THEMSELVES. "WHY DOES HE SPEAK LIKE THIS? HE'S BLASHEMING! WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS BUT GOD ALONE?
Right away Jesus understood in his spirit that they were reasoning like this within themselves and said to them,"Why are you reasoning these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic; "your sins are forgiven", orto say. "Get up, pick up your bed and walk? But so you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin". He told the paralytic. " I tell you: get up, pick up your bed and walk."
Jesus used healings to prove He has the authority to forgive our sins.
It's pretty plain in this text.
Read the gospels, all the times Jesus healed someone he commented that their faith in Him was how they could be healed.
I can't help you if you don't believe the Bible.
The Bible doesn't promise that believers won't get sick. It does promise us healing, when we are sick.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
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I don't know why Paul instructed Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake.
I do know that Medically drinking one glass of red wine is actually GOOD for one's health generally. Wine has ingredients that help the heart and blood vessels.
I do know that it does aid digestion of foods.
Nothing magical there.
Perhaps it would be like us giving someone some general health advice.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I don't know why Paul instructed Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake.
I do know that Medically drinking one glass of red wine is actually GOOD for one's health generally. Wine has ingredients that help the heart and blood vessels.
I do know that it does aid digestion of foods.
Nothing magical there.
Perhaps it would be like us giving someone some general health advice.
By general health advice, I mean things like eat your veggies, or take vitimins or eat a balanced diet and things like that.
It doesn't mean that Timothy was sick just because Paul gave him some advice.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
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Softtouch
Remember that the Law brings death.
The Spirit gives Life. I know how you dislike anything that is spiritualized.
Read John chapter 3.
Woman at the WELL.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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To Linda you said:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Yet you know all these things in your head and not your heart.
To me you said:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I can't help you if you don't believe the Bible.
Statements like these just blow me away…. It’s one thing to disagree with others and to debate the differences, it’s something all together different to get Personal and Unkind with it.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
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WhiteEagle:
I can't help you if you don't believe the Bible.
The Bible doesn't promise that believers won't get sick. It does promise us healing, when we are sick.
Whoso ever is restored to God can not help but be healed.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
God healed those who wished to repent and look up.
He healed them so they could take the Promised Land.
God heals us so we can also take the Promised Land.
He said "occupy unitl I come."
Christ came and conquered sin and death and redeemed us back to Him.
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
If Adam and Eve had never sinned mankind would not be experiencing illness,or diseases.
With redemption comes healing,it's the natural outpouring of the blessing.
That's why missionaries see miracles. Those people in underdeveloped countries haven't been indoctrinated against healings. Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The same compounding of errors of WOF, adding onto scripture and reaching a false and dangerous conclusion. One who blatantly connects a lack of healing with lack of faith, for example your statement, "Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.", thus declares that those who are not healed lack faith. This is a disservice and denigration of my beloved Brothers and Sisters who serve our Lord Jesus Christ while being crippled/sick/infirm. You have bought into error and false teaching.
Romans 8:
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
A few examples from an interesting list which goes on and on and on, of those "elders" of the Word of Faith who have succomed to disease, have placed their followers at risk, who teach error:
ORAL ROBERTS
If someone says they are having heart trouble and they deny this symptom claiming their healing by faith they could die. A perfect example of this is when Oral Roberts was on Paul Crouch on "Praise the Lord" show on TBN (October 6, 1992). I watched as Crouch was asked to lay hands on Oral Roberts to minister to his chest pains, Roberts exclaimed, "I feel the healing power of Jesus!" and said it felt like an "electric current go through him." Paul you are anointed. Oral Roberts was pronounced healed on TBN. But was he really? It was reported less than four hours later, while visiting a home in Newport Beach, Roberts felt more pains and was hospitalized at Hoag Presbyterian Memorial Hospital (also in Newport Beach), shortly after midnight. Subsequent articles report that Roberts' heart attack was "near fatal." ("Evangelist Has Tests," The Orange County [CA] Register [Dec.16 1992], A-7) the healing evangelist now has a pacemaker ("Roberts Out of Hospital," The Orange County [CA] Register (2l December 1992), A-30). Of course this is ignored by the crowds following his doctrine. One can only wonder why?
ROD PARSLEY
It is reported that this up-and-coming Word-Faith prosperity teacher has recently been admitted to a hospital for back surgery. There go all his claims of being able to "name it and claim it"! And it doesn't stop there, according to G. Richard Fisher of Personal Freedom Outreach:
To say that Jesus had to suffer all our diseases on the cross is an old error referred to as healing in the atonement. While healing is in the atonement in the ultimate sense (Romans 8 and Revelation 21), the full benefits of glorified, deathless bodies will only be realized in heaven. We owe everything (all spiritual and physical blessings) to the atonement of Jesus but we do not receive all of those blessings right now. Scripture makes that abundantly clear. Parsley has evidence in his own home that his teaching on healing is off-base — his son Austin has been diagnosed “with Asperger's syndrome, a high-functioning form of autism.” God has provided evidence of Parsley’s own errors but for whatever reason he refuses to see it. It is sad that Parsley can so compartmentalize that he lays teaching on his followers but has a different reality at home. Parsley shared in a sermon televised last June 4 that his son was diagnosed at the Cleveland Clinic and reports while he is making improvement, “we're not all the way out of the woods but we're on our way.”
Parsley has since claimed that his son, Austin, has been completely healed of Asperger's syndrome. However, since his son is never brought on his father's TV program, it is still to be confirmed that Austin has had any "healing" at all apart from traditional treatments and programs since the diagnosis at Cleveland Clinic. The question remains ... why would Parsley need medical practitioners to diagnose his son when God is supposed to heal him immediately when Parsley commands Him to?
Added to that is the fact that as much as Parsley rants about God's Kingdom come in our body, he still has a deaf section and a signer in his church. As kindly as we can, we say, physician heal thyself. (Personal Freedom Outreach, Rod Parsley - The Raging Prophet", 1999)
Parsley, in his book, Renamed and Redeemed, states that: “Jesus is not sick - I don't have to be sick!” (Rod Parsley, Renamed and Redeemed. Columbus, Ohio: Results Publishing, 1991, pg. 15)
Isn't it time for Parsley to admit that he cannot speak his own healing into being, as he and so many of the Word-Faith teachers declare?
DR. HOBART FREEMAN
Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings). (Robert Liichow, Sick Healers)
After a 15 year old girl whose parents belong to Faith Assembly, died of a medically treatable malady, the parents were convicted of negligent homicide and sentenced to ten years in prison. Freeman himself was charged with aiding and inducing reckless homicide in the case. Shortly afterward, on December 8, 1984, Freeman himself died, interestingly enough of pneumonia and heart failure complicated by a severely ulcerated leg.
Hobart Freeman's theology did not allow him to acknowledge that Polio had left one of his legs disfigured and lame. Quote, he said, "I have my healing." And that is all he would say when anyone pointed out the rather conspicuous inconsistency between his physical disabilities and his theology. Ultimately, his refusal to acknowledge his infirmities cost him his life. He had dutifully, according to his own theology, refused all medical treatment for the maladies that were killing him, and medical science could easily have prolonged his life, but in the end he was a victim of his own teaching. (John McArthur, Does God Still Heal, Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, transcribed from the tape, GC 90-60, titled "Charismatic Chaos" Part 9)
E.W. KENYON
E.W. Kenyon studied at the Emerson College of Oratory in Boston which was a hotbed at the time for the emerging New age thought. They imagined they have discovered laws of faith, promoting a Christianized version of occultism. Kenyon had divorced his wife even when he taught that what one speaks they will possess. E.W Kenyon who is certainly the Father of the Word of Faith Movement taught divine healing and that it was always God's will to heal. But he died in a coma, brought on by a malignant tumor. He died from disease. (Mike Oppenheimer, Let Us Reason Ministries, Death By Faith, http://www.letusreason.org/Wf25.htm)
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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Those things blew me away too and surprised me coming from you white eagle!
Honestly, if I had to assess or evaluate our disagreeing on the things that we disagree on, I would say that I dont spiritualize the scriptures enough for you and you spiritualize them too much for me.
I think that it is very presumptuous of you to think that I dont spiritualize them at all or that I dont know them in my heart because I disgree with you.
I actually probably disagree with you a lot less than you think.
quote:
WildB is pooh-poohing any kind of healing from what I read of his/hers posts.
I didnt get that from his posts; Surely WildB knows that healing occcurs else everyone who ever got sick would die from the sickness! WildB may be of the belief that the signs and wonders miracles and gifts have ceased I do not know; but this did not begin a discussion on healing it began a discussion on the misapplication of 2Peter and Isaiah and whether you believe in healing or you dont you have to wrest those scriptures out of context to apply them to speak to the healing of physical disease such as AIDs or Diabetes, or the common cold. That is not an argument against healing it is an argument aginst wresting scripture out of context!!!
quote:
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
This above is another unbelievable statement to me! What a foolish thing to say White Eagle you really surprised me with this one too! I realize that completely. In fact it is because I realize this that I disagree with you. This BODY IS THE HOME TO SIN AND WILL DIE BECAUSE OF IT. Sin LIVES in your mortal body and in mine!!! The blood did not remove the sin from our members! It allowed us to be begotten again... NEW CREATURES residing in this BODY with sin and yet it has no power over us for we are not our bodies. I could just as well say to you that YOU White Eagle do not understand the NEW CREATURE! Our mortal bodies are meant to become serpent food! Dust from which they came - thus the works of the devil (sin in the flesh) are destroyed upon our death and we (the NEW creature) are freed from this body of death.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I wont say that to you; because I have no idea what you understand or what you do not.
quote:
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come. The two go hand in hand with repentance.
Sin and death are conquered NOW; that is why YOU will not follow your mortal flesh to the grave. If it were as you say rather than as I say then you would not die at all. Your body is healed now then it will not degenerate, get old, corrupt. You cant have it both ways. Either your body is mortal and sin lives in it or it is dying and subject to illness.
quote:
With redemption comes healing,it's the natural outpouring of the blessing.
That's why missionaries see miracles. Those people in underdeveloped countries haven't been indoctrinated against healings. Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.
John 9:1 ¶ And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
quote:
You say that one day, after we die on earth and go to heaven then we all will be healed, so that kind of gives credence to my statement you thought was ridiculous.
No, I am saying that all things are manifest in thier proper time. I am saying that The healing that was wrought by HIS stripes is not manifest in the mortal Body, but in the Spiritual one. I am saying that all the examples that you give to support your views of "we are healed by his stripes" are all examples of healing that occured before his stripes!!!
quote:
I'm not saying that one has to cough up enough Faith on their own, because they can't, do it.
Jesus is the Author of our faith. We go to Him and touch the Hem of His garment spiritually and ask Him to help our unbelief. He is the Source.
None of us can ever cough up enough faith in our own power.
Honestly, I know you well enough to know that you are not. Sadly, however this is the end to which this misuse of these scriptures is taken by many and that is why I said those things..... not to you specifically or personally.
quote:
What many Christian lack is knowledge about the things that Paul and Peter and the Gospels talk about in the spirit.
It is ironic because I also agree with this and one of the ways in which I see this is that many christians live this life from earth. This life is lived from above on earth. I do not know how else to say this. Many Christians are in bondage of one thing or another in this life because they try to live in the flesh. OUR OLD MAN IS DEAD. It is still with us. BUT HE is DEAD and we are supposed to be about learning to let him die. Instead we have today a hoard who would teach us how to keep him alive. Let him die and live in the SPirit. In the spirit, the flesh is irrelevant!
2 Corinthians 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
Here we see Paul's friend and fellow worker, Ephroditis sick and healed.... because of his great faith? Because he is a born again believer? NO! Because God showed MERCY! Period!
Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
If our healing in this life is a guaranteed done deal because of HIS stripes and we need only to receive it then why did Paul leave Trophimus sick rather than healing him?
2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
quote:
Yes a Christian can be chronically ill and still be a blessing and perhaps God is allowing it for His purposes, but most of the time or at least many times, Christians aren't a blessing when they are sick, as they cling to it as their thorn in the flesh when they need to be fighting it actively.
Boy, I have a lot of issues with this one. A Christian should be a blessing where ever he goes regardless of his condition because the Spirit of the Almighty God does indwell us and the fruit of HIS spirit in us is a blessing.
I realize that I am nit picking on semantics here, but I think that the semantics are significant.
Certainly, there are chronically ill christians that bless others daily in spite of their illness; this speaks to one's walking the walk in sickness and in health.
But I think that what you are speaking of is, God using illness to glorify himself. And to that I would say this:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
ALL THIINGS ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL things! Period.
Can you show me in the scripture where it says that we are to actively fight sickness and how does one actively fight sickness?
quote:
Thorn in the flesh is a doctine taught from one verse that Paul writes, and everyone lays claim to it.
I do not know how one clings to a thorn in the flesh. I am not sure that I understand your point here.
We do not know what was Paul's thorn in the flesh. We do know that it was something to be endured. It was not something that God would free him from and yet God did give Paul sufficient grace to live with it. We know that the thorn was a messenger of Satan, that God used to keep Paul from becoming too full of himself. Personally, I do not see a problem with having a thorn in the flesh that keeps you from being too full of yourself.
The way Paul dealt with this is I think consistent with understanding Romans 8:28. If this life is a bed of roses, then roses have thorns.... oh well. His grace is sufficient. Paul understood contentment in the HOLY GHOST, Resting in Christ come what may. He prayed and God said "No, Paul" and Paul said... not my will but yours, ok. If Paul believed as you do, he might have argued with God; He might have continued to ask after God said "No, Paul." He might have doubted his faith, or he might have doubted that God is still healing; or He might have insisted on his right to healing by the stripes of Christ until God gave him his desire and then he became all full of himself.
Paul dealth with his thorn scripturally. He prayed and then he accepted that his will was not God's will and his way was not God's way, but he wanted more what God willed and wanted, even though it was not comfortable or pretty or what might look like a blessing in the world's eye view of what blessing is.
quote:
Yes we enter the promised land when we enter into the Spiritual Kingdom of God on earth when we Worship God and obey God and walk staightly and keep in repentance. That's what I mean about entering the Promise Land.
Yes ,we occupy our little space on earth for Christ. Sorry we're still a human being at this time and not dead yet.
Collosians 3:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,(Touch not; taste not; handle not Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 Corinthians 13:12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
Who is it that we see when we look in a mirror? Who is it that we do not now see as we really are? What is it that we will know as we were known by GOD?
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
This is what Paul got that so many including those who constantly seek to spiritualize the written word do not get - the new creature is a spiritual creature. Illness of a physical body is immaterial to a spiritual creature.
1 Corintians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
40 and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
41 one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.
42 So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
45 so also it hath been written, ‘The first man Adam became a living creature,’ the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of heaven;
48 as is the earthy, such are also the earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly;
49 and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the [/b]image of the heavenly.
YOU bear NOW the NATURE of the heavenly though you await the image of the heavenly. NEW CREATURE!
Living here FROM above.
What is sickness in the flesh to someone who is born of God? It is nothing! Who cares! To live is Christ.... to die gain!
You acuse some of hating that which is spiritual and yet it is you that clings to the physical body. You may be human. I am a Child of the living God who is God of the Spirits and I occupy a human body. If it is sick and dying I am well; if it is healthy, I am well. Which of us hates things spiritual?
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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AMEN Brother Drew and Sister Linda, AMEN
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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quote:WildB is pooh-poohing any kind of healing from what I read of his/hers posts.
I didnt get that from his posts; Surely WildB knows that healing occcurs else everyone who ever got sick would die from the sickness! WildB may be of the belief that the signs and wonders miracles and gifts have ceased I do not know; but this did not begin a discussion on healing it began a discussion on the misapplication of 2Peter and Isaiah and whether you believe in healing or you dont you have to wrest those scriptures out of context to apply them to speak to the healing of physical disease such as AIDs or Diabetes, or the common cold. That is not an argument against healing it is an argument aginst wresting scripture out of context!!!
~
I am a male with a womans heart, but a Patriot in Christ when one trys to dull the Sword of the Spirit.
To use the scriptures of topic for a fleashly desire and teach it to others, is in fact passing out dull swords that will cause a great sadness when the real battle starts.
Prov.27
[17] Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
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Awesome exposition Sister Linda.
God bless you Sis!
Amen Brother Bill!
With the Word alive in our heart and walk with our Lord, we can persevere in the face of persecution, disease, infirmity, with our faith intact and unshaken. How many are walking wounded from the WOF, because they have been taught that their faith was insufficient because they did not their healing, or a multitude of dollars for their sacrificial donations?
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
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There's a lot of contradictions in your post above Linda.
You wonder where in the Bible it says for us to fight our illnesses?
Our body is a temple. We are to treat it right, and I'm sure you are against excesses of food, drink, or drug use that harms the body.
So why shouldn't we fight against illness. Our bodies are fighting it with our immune systems. We should be fighting it mentally, physcially and especially spiritually.
I'm trying to make application to us living spiritually in a body of death, that is more than just saying I already live in the heavenly realm.
Spiritually we are in the heavenly realm and seated with Christ and He has endowed us with His Authority. He said his disciples would do greater things then He as He now is with the Father.
Since we as believers are in the heavenly realm, we are in the midst of a spritual battle.
I don't follow the WOF teachers, I believe what the Bible actually says, and don't add Baptist, Mehtodist, or any other "thist" doctrines to the Bible.
We can only walk in the truth we are able to see.
By his stripes we are healed... is part of the whole of redemption.
Many will have to wait until they are dead to see healing. I'm not preaching that all Christians should or will or are going to be healed. I'm trying to tell people that they can have hope of healing, in ways they never realized before if they can just really grab onto what the Gospels say.
Many Christians can be healed and that's the message. I never said all.
Please tell me where in the Bible it states that God wants us to be sick.
Where?
It's not His will that we are sick, He may end up using it for our good, or someone else's good, but it's not God's desire that any of us be sick or ill.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
"
Please tell me where in the Bible it states that God wants us to be sick.
Where?"
[4] And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
[5] But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[6] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
[7] So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
from the text http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2083576
Stop your sillyness.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
John 9
1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
White Eagle,
I have stayed away this week, simply because I needed to heal from the wounds given to me, by fellow Christians who judge me for being ill. God has given me the reason why He has chosen to allow me not to be healed on this earth and that is between Him and me.
I can assure you it is not because I am a sinner, a lazy Christian or because I lack faith.
I am curious about this remark you made
“So why shouldn't we fight against illness. Our bodies are fighting it with our immune systems. We should be fighting it mentally, physically and especially spiritually.”
If healing is a miracle from God then why should we be fighting to get healing? If healing is us fighting through is then half the miracle done by us? Name one time when Jesus required the person He was healing to fight through to receive the miracle from Him.
I think it would be good for everyone to have to walk in the shoes of a crippled person for one day. But, that is not possible. I have dealt with some rude people since I became ill. Once, a man knocked me out of the elevator when I was using crutches so he could get ahead of me, to sign in at the doctor’s office. Once at Sears, I was using a wheel chair when a stranger picked up the chair with me and moved me out of the way without a word. I was offended. But, I never expected to be treated rudely at a Christian site by other Christens.
Contrary to BA, I did work for God before I became ill and not only that but hubby and I worked for 5 years volunteers at a ministry when I would have to take pain pills in order to handle the pain.
One day God will explain to you all what damage you have done to handicapped Christens by your rude and insensitive comments.
For now, well, I am leaving you in God’s hands.
betty
---------------
Soft Touch and Drew,
I pray that God will bless you both for standing up for those like me, who cannot always stand up for ourselves.
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"
Please tell me where in the Bible it states that God wants us to be sick.
Where?"
[4] And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
[5] But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[6] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
[7] So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
from the text http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2083576
Stop your sillyness.
If you read your own post with this reference to Job, it's very obvious that it's Satan who caused Job to be sick.
God allowed it. God is Sovereign.
You showed by the Bible that it is Satan who wants us to be sick, NOT God.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
White Eagle,
I have stayed away this week, simply because I needed to heal from the wounds given to me, by fellow Christians who judge me for being ill. God has given me the reason why He has chosen to allow me not to be healed on this earth and that is between Him and me.
I can assure you it is not because I am a sinner, a lazy Christian or because I lack faith.
I am curious about this remark you made
“So why shouldn't we fight against illness. Our bodies are fighting it with our immune systems. We should be fighting it mentally, physically and especially spiritually.”
If healing is a miracle from God then why should we be fighting to get healing? If healing is us fighting through is then half the miracle done by us? Name one time when Jesus required the person He was healing to fight through to receive the miracle from Him.
I think it would be good for everyone to have to walk in the shoes of a crippled person for one day. But, that is not possible. I have dealt with some rude people since I became ill. Once, a man knocked me out of the elevator when I was using crutches so he could get ahead of me, to sign in at the doctor’s office. Once at Sears, I was using a wheel chair when a stranger picked up the chair with me and moved me out of the way without a word. I was offended. But, I never expected to be treated rudely at a Christian site by other Christens.
Contrary to BA, I did work for God before I became ill and not only that but hubby and I worked for 5 years volunteers at a ministry when I would have to take pain pills in order to handle the pain.
One day God will explain to you all what damage you have done to handicapped Christens by your rude and insensitive comments.
For now, well, I am leaving you in God’s hands.
betty
---------------
Soft Touch and Drew,
I pray that God will bless you both for standing up for those like me, who cannot always stand up for ourselves.
betty
Betty
You are employing what is known as a "guilt trip" on me. I'm not guilty. It won't work.
"let it be unto you according to your faith."
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
God loves you.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
WhiteEagle:
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not when you defend false teaching. Not when you take God's Word out of its proper context.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
WhiteEagle:
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not when you defend false teaching. Not when you take God's Word out of its proper context.
Who says???? Who is the Authority that says I took God's Word out of it's "proper contextt"?
I mean get a grip. By whose authority are you quoting this claptrap. Is it from some denominatinal doctrine? What?
Do I have to write all of Isaiah chapter 53?
READ IT!
Isaiah 53: 4-6
"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; and we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities: punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds. We all went astray like sheep; we all have turned to our own way; and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all."
Christ had to be punished and die for our sins.
When he did this it healed our sickness, and it gave us peace by his wounds, and this part of the whole total redemptive plan.
To deny His healing, is to deny Christ's work on the cross.
I don't want to hear any more of taking something out of context unless you have proof from the Word of God.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
John 13:33-35 (KJV) 34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. ~Jesus
1 Peter 4:8-11 (NKJV) And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."
Romans 12:9-13 (NKJV) Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
1 Corinthians 13:5-7 (NKJV) does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Galatians 6:10 (NKJV) Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Philippians 2:3 (NKJV) Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Matthew 25:40 (NKJV) "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Galatians 5:15 (NKJV) But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Betty
You are employing what is known as a "guilt trip" on me. I'm not guilty. It won't work.
Sister Betty is Not trying to give you a 'guilt trip' as you claim... she was trying to tell you that things you had said to her had HURT her.
If she had said that to me, I wouldn't hesitate to apologize to her. Why are you being so unkind in some of your replies here?
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
If you read your own post with this reference to Job, it's very obvious that it's Satan who caused Job to be sick.
God allowed it. God is Sovereign.
You showed by the Bible that it is Satan who wants us to be sick, NOT God.
God allowed Satan to bring sickness upon Job for God's purpose! That was the point. Yes, no one is denying that it was Satan that brought the sickness. It is SIN that brings corruption of any kind to the body... sin that indwells the flesh. That is why the flesh dies!
But can you not see that it is the will of God that the flesh die? How do you think that sin is destroyed? It praise GOD by the power of the Blood turns to dust to become serpent food. The devil destroys his own house...and when this body is finally sown in corruption, when sin is FINISHED in this flesh, and our spirit separates from it, we are redeemed... our spiritual bodies are brought forth.
Our flesh is meant to last us just as long as God ordains us to be here. It is of the world and we will leave it here to return to dust and the sin that was in it too.
If God heals it from an illness it is for HIS glory; If God allows it to die from the illness it is for HIS glory!
![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
WhiteEagle:
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not when you defend false teaching. Not when you take God's Word out of its proper context.
Who says???? Who is the Authority that says I took God's Word out of it's "proper contextt"?
I mean get a grip. By whose authority are you quoting this claptrap. Is it from some denominatinal doctrine? What?
Do I have to write all of Isaiah chapter 53?
READ IT!
Isaiah 53: 4-6
"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; and we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities: punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds. We all went astray like sheep; we all have turned to our own way; and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all."
Christ had to be punished and die for our sins.
When he did this it healed our sickness, and it gave us peace by his wounds, and this part of the whole total redemptive plan.
To deny His healing, is to deny Christ's work on the cross.
I don't want to hear any more of taking something out of context unless you have proof from the Word of God.
Nice try. So how did you change the word "griefs" into "sickness"..
Consider yourself set aside.
Tit.3
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
My Pastor in Houston back about 30 years ago was diagnosed with inoperable cancer. The doctors said he would die. The Church, him and his wife prayed and God healed him. He is still pastoring a Church at age 78. His wife inherited MD. She has it and so does one of her daughter. The same group of people prayed for her. If the Pastor was healed because of the faith of the people, why did the faith of the very same people not heal his wife?
White Eagle I could care less whether you feel guilty or not. I talked to my Preacher’s wife here in Washington today about what has been said here about me. She said that I should try to forgive people like you who speak in ignorance. I am going to work on that.
betty
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
Nice try. So how did you change the word "griefs" into "sickness"..
02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Deuteronomy 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness <02483>, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
Deuteronomy 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses <02483>, and of long continuance.
Deuteronomy 28:61 Also every sickness <02483>, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
1 Kings 17:17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness <02483> was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
2 Kings 1:2 And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease <02483>.
2 Kings 8:8 And the king said unto Hazael, Take a present in thine hand, and go, meet the man of God, and enquire of the LORD by him, saying, Shall I recover of this disease <02483>?
2 Kings 8:9 So Hazael went to meet him, and took a present with him, even of every good thing of Damascus, forty camels’ burden, and came and stood before him, and said, Thy son Benhadad king of Syria hath sent me to thee, saying, Shall I recover of this disease <02483>?
2 Kings 13:14 Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness <02483> whereof he died. And Joash the king of Israel came down unto him, and wept over his face, and said, O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.
2 Chronicles 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease <02483> was exceeding great: yet in his disease <02483> he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
2 Chronicles 21:15 And thou shalt have great sickness <02483> by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness <02483> day by day.
2 Chronicles 21:18 And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease <02483>.
2 Chronicles 21:19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness <02483>: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers.
Psalms 41:3 The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness <02483>.
Ecclesiastes 5:17 All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he hath much sorrow and wrath with his sickness <02483>.
Ecclesiastes 6:2 A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease <02483>.
Isaiah 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick <02483>, and the whole heart faint.
Isaiah 38:9 The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness <02483>:
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief <02483>: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs <02483>, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Jeremiah 6:7 As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief <02483> and wounds.
Jeremiah 10:19 Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief <02483>, and I must bear it.
Hosea 5:13 When Ephraim saw his sickness <02483>, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
*************************************************
He did bear their sickness and their pain and soprrow. Deliverance is the Children's bread. That does not change anything for the church if the word is rightly divided and the text... With His stripes we are healed is not taken out of CONTEXT.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
1 ¶ Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
grief (grēf) pronunciation
n.
1. Deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. See synonyms at regret.
2. A source of deep mental anguish.
3. Annoyance or frustration: Trying to follow their directions was nothing but grief.
4. Trouble or difficulty: the griefs of trying to meet a deadline.
5. Archaic. A grievance.
Bible, King James Version
"grief" matches.
Gen.26
1. [35] Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.
1Sam.1
1. [16] Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.
1Sam.25
1. [31] That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid.
2Chr.6
1. [29] Then what prayer or what supplication soever shall be made of any man, or of all thy people Israel, when every one shall know his own sore and his own grief, and shall spread forth his hands in this house:
Job.2
1. [13] So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great.
Job.6
1. [2] Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!
Job.16
1. [5] But I would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should asswage your grief.
2. [6] Though I speak, my grief is not asswaged: and though I forbear, what am I eased?
Pss.6
1. [7] Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.
Pss.31
1. [9] Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly.
2. [10] For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed.
Pss.69
1. [26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
Prov.17
1. [25] A foolish son is a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.
Qoh.1
1. [18] For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Qoh.2
1. [23] For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity.
Isa.17
1. [11] In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.
Isa.53
1. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
2. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
3. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Jer.6
1. [7] As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief and wounds.
Jer.10
1. [19] Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.
Jer.45
1. [3] Thou didst say, Woe is me now! for the LORD hath added grief to my sorrow; I fainted in my sighing, and I find no rest.
Lam.3
1. [32] But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Jonah.4
1. [6] And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
1Mac.6
1. [8] Now when the king heard these words, he was astonished and sore moved: whereupon he laid him down upon his bed, and fell sick for grief, because it had not befallen him as he looked for.
2. [9] And there he continued many days: for his grief was ever more and more, and he made account that he should die.
3. [13] I perceive therefore that for this cause these troubles are come upon me, and, behold, I perish through great grief in a strange land.
2Cor.2
1. [5] But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
Heb.13
1. [17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1Pet.2
1. [19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
I understand that Bro, but the word translated griefs in the KJV in this text is:
02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I understand that Bro, but the word translated griefs in the KJV in this text is:
02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
I will stick with the KJV. Because its focus is more to He was "smitten of God", and afflicted not phyiscal healing. The prophet was so afraid that you and I would miss this that he mentioned it three times:"The Lord hath laid on him the iniiquity of us all." "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruse him." "He hath put him to grief." Consternation fills our souls when we recognize that it was God the Father who treated the perfect Man in such a terrible fashion.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
I use the KJV - the words that underlie the KJV are what I posted. ????
I am not disagreeing with your understanding. I aggree; but the word griefs in verse 4 is not the same word as is translated griefs in verse 10, though the word in verse 4 is the root. The way it is conjegated in verse 10 shows that it was God that laid this upon HIM as Hiphil shows cause (HE)(caused).
I just dont think that it is fair to the discussion or to WhiteEagle to try and say this word is not sickness it is sickness in the Hebrew language in which God gave the scripture to Isaiah.
Verse 4 = 02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Verse 10 = 02470 hlx chalah khaw-law’ (1) to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry
1f) (Hiphil)
1f1) to make sore
1f2) to make sick
1f3) to show signs of sickness, become sick
1f4) to grieve
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I use the KJV - the words that underlie the KJV are what I posted. ????
I am not disagreeing with your understanding. I aggree; but the word griefs in verse 4 is not the same word as is translated griefs in verse 10, though the word in verse 4 is the root. The way it is conjegated in verse 10 shows that it was God that laid this upon HIM as Hiphil shows cause (HE)(caused).
I just dont think that it is fair to the discussion or to WhiteEagle to try and say this word is not sickness it is sickness in the Hebrew language in which God gave the scripture to Isaiah.
Verse 4 = 02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Verse 10 = 02470 hlx chalah khaw-law’ (1) to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry
1f) (Hiphil)
1f1) to make sore
1f2) to make sick
1f3) to show signs of sickness, become sick
1f4) to grieve
You are a very smart person. This "grief" of ver. 4 should not be taught as sickness IMHO. It misdirects the direction of thought. Not all with sickness grieve and not all that grieve get sick -- to which is a soul truly vexed?
To which if fixed would do the eternal good?
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QB
God allowed Satan to bring sickness upon Job for God's purpose! That was the point. Yes, no one is denying that it was Satan that brought the sickness. It is SIN that brings corruption of any kind to the body... sin that indwells the flesh. That is why the flesh dies!
But can you not see that it is the will of God that the flesh die? How do you think that sin is destroyed? It praise GOD by the power of the Blood turns to dust to become serpent food. The devil destroys his own house...and when this body is finally sown in corruption, when sin is FINISHED in this flesh, and our spirit separates from it, we are redeemed... our spiritual bodies are brought forth.
Our flesh is meant to last us just as long as God ordains us to be here. It is of the world and we will leave it here to return to dust and the sin that was in it too.
If God heals it from an illness it is for HIS glory; If God allows it to die from the illness it is for HIS glory!
[/QB][/QUOTE]
I think you are saying that our flesh belongs to satan? due to sin? So our flesh is evil, and that we can't get redeemed until we die? I'm not quite following your theology as it's certainly looking at things differently than I do.
I see it this way:
God created us in His image.
Sin entered in through Adam and Eve
We became corrupted in the flesh and now all of us are born with a sin nature called the flesh. Satan does not own us, or our flesh we do.
Humans have choice. Satan gains ground on people when we do sin, and we suffer from the sins of others to us.
We die to self, and the die to the flesh daily meaning we take ourselves off the throne of our heart and put God on that Throne.
We are sealed until the day of redemption. We are redeemed by the Blood now. Healing is past present and future tenses.
God never intended that our flesh be sinful, that was not his will. God created us and saw that it was good. God created us to be His children and He hates the sin that corrupted our flesh and made a provision to save us.
God doesn't hate our human forms. He created us.
God does want us to be healed here and now.
We are the ones who have to die to self daily, and since we do it daily, I don't think Paul meant we commit suicide every day to destroy our own flesh.
It's a spiritual discipline that come only through the power of Christ. We are being changed by the renewing of our minds. When the mind is healed the body can be healed, both are connected, God made us that way.
Anyway I don't think you are into Gnostism
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Betty
You are employing what is known as a "guilt trip" on me. I'm not guilty. It won't work.
Sister Betty is Not trying to give you a 'guilt trip' as you claim... she was trying to tell you that things you had said to her had HURT her.
If she had said that to me, I wouldn't hesitate to apologize to her. Why are you being so unkind in some of your replies here?
I imagine that many of the Pharisee thought Jesus was unkind to them and needed to apoligize.
I'm a very compassionate person. I'm telling the good news of the gospel.
Many denominations keep their flock in the dark about the Power of God.
They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.
They don't recognize demonic oppresion and they can't help or guide those who suffer from it.
God may not heal everyone, that is up to the Lord.
It doesn't indicate that that person is a bad Christian if they are chronically sick, but it does mean that Satan has a hold in their life somehow that can be broken. They may not recover physcially or they may, but they can certainly know the peace of God.
I also truly believe it is God's will that all people who come to him be healed. Trouble is we have so many issues within ourselves to even get that close to God. We lack faith, we are crippled by false beliefs, and many other things.
It's only Christ in you the hope of glory.
I've given out the good news, and if some can't receive it, then that's their problem.
Believe me, I used to be there, and not be able to believe that God would actually heal me or help me. One needs to keep seeking and keep searching and don't give up.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
God may not heal everyone, that is up to the Lord.
It doesn't indicate that that person is a bad Christian if they are chronically sick,
Now I agree with this. God said HE will have mercy on whom HE will have mercy. God chose Not to heal Paul, but to cause Paul to rely on HIS (God's) Grace as being sufficient.
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
but it does mean that Satan has a hold in their life somehow that can be broken.
In Some cases this may be true, but it isn't true of all as we saw from the account of the Blind (from birth) man whom Jesus healed and told HIS disciples that this mans blindness wasn't due to anyones sin... Now, this is what Jesus said. Even if it were only this one case, it still goes to prove that not all illness is due to sin. Which is, and which isn't is not something we can judge in anothers life. That has to be between them and the Lord.
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
They may not recover physcially or they may, but they can certainly know the peace of God.
Again, I agree with this. We are to be Content in all circumstances. We also must be mindful of how our words will affect others. Although I don't believe in the WOF "Positive Confession" as they teach, I do believe that our words can cause great harm to others (or bring great blessings to them). If we tell someone that their illness is due to some unconfessed sin (and how would we possibily know this of another?), and in reality it isn't (only God knows this for sure), then we've done our brother or sister harm. Especially if we've caused them to grieve over our words.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
This is interesting. I want to thank you for sharing this because it wasinteresting to see what we think differently about that colors our thoughts in other areas. I really enjoyed this comparison. Please know that I am not saying I have the handle on all this. This is just my current understanding in comparison to what you have shared; I remain a work in progress:
quote:
I think you are saying that our flesh belongs to satan? due to sin?
Belongs to Satan? No!
The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof!
1 Corintians 15: 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
However: The earth was cursed for man's sake. And the serpent was sentenced to eat the dust of the earth all the day of his life:
Genesis 3:14 ........and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Genesis 3:19 ............for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Our flesh is dishonoured:Sown in dishonour; sown in corruption; we are delivered from it..
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
quote:
So our flesh is evil, and that we can't get redeemed until we die?
Sin is in our flesh and that sin is evil. It is condemened..........
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I believe that we have as a result of our re-birth spiritual bodies that will be redeemed when this one is sown in corruption.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are redeemed NOW, from bondage to sin in the flesh. From Satan's dominion over our living soul, which can now walk in the spirit, following the mind of Christ, we await the manifestation of our adoption, the redemption of our spiritual bodies from this earthly dwelling place - the body of death where sin dwells.
I see it this way:
quote:
God created us in His image.
God created Adam (mankind)in HIS image. The children of Adam were pro-created, born, begotten in the image of Adam: Genesis 5:3
quote:
Sin entered in through Adam and Eve
Not Adam and Eve... ONE man Adam. Sin is passed from the father to the children..
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
quote:
We became corrupted in the flesh and now all of us are born with a sin nature called the flesh.
Sin nature is a "man's" word. Sin nature is not in the Bible. I would say that we are naturally born with sin in our flesh, when we are born in the flesh. We are born to our earthly parents with a human earthy nature and our image is one of sinful flesh. I see that we are living souls that God has covered in flesh and skin; as Adam and Eve were covered in skins and I see that sin does dwell in our flesh. Thus we all HAVE sin from birth.
Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
quote:
Satan does not own us, or our flesh we do.
Here we disagree. Satan does not own us;correct; all souls are God's. The scripture was given above.
However, Satan has been given authority over the flesh of men through sin in the flesh. We are sold under sin to Satan's authority or dominion as he is the god of this world and our mortal bodies are OF this world.
This is his territory given by God to him to roam about. For those who are re-born; begotten again by God, Satan has no dominion because they are not earthy, but are spiritual and Satan has no dominion over the spiritual. But when we walk in the flesh and not the spirit, then he has dominion, as we give it over to him.
quote:
Humans have choice.
This is too broad for me to know what you think that we have a choice over. I see that we who are born again have a choice and that choice is to walk in the flesh or in the spirit. I see that the unregenerated man has no choice but to walk in the flesh. I believe that the very first grace that God extends to man is the grace that allows him to repent of sin and believe God, but that without that grace being given by God man in his natural state, would be unable to chose God.
quote:
Satan gains ground on people when we do sin, and we suffer from the sins of others to us.
hmmm. I am not sure I understand "gains ground" Satan has dominion over the flesh of man as man is servant to sin. In the born again man, Satan has no authority because he is heavenly creature not an earthy one, but when man choses to walk in the flesh and mind the things of the flesh, then man delivers himself over to the one that has dominion over things earthly... Where the mind goes the body follows. Sow to the flesh reap the flesh etc. So, for the born again, Satan has no power as long as we remain in the spirit. But sin is still present in the mortal body and continues to work corruption until the day our spirit separates from the mortal body in what we call death. We have not gained power over the flesh by the blood, but we have gained freedom from the power of sin in the flesh over us as we are NEW heavenly creatures not subject to the god of this world or sin in the flesh.
quote:
We die to self, and the die to the flesh daily meaning we take ourselves off the throne of our heart and put God on that Throne.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
I believe that my body is dead now; I wait the full manifestation of that which will come when sin in it is finished destroying it; at that time my spirit and soul will be with God in its spiritual body.
While I live in this dead body, my life is HID in Christ. This is why I say to you if the body is sick I am well; if the body is in health I am well.
As I live this life HID in Christ and Christ lives in me; I am learning to die; I am learning to sanctify God in my heart and in doing that my dead body is presented to HIM as a living sacrifice. I would say that this is equal to your "taking ourselves off the throne of our heart" As, God is sanctified in our hearts, the deeds of the body are mortified (killed); the deeds done in the body become HIS deeds,not ours because we ceased from our own works.
quote:
We are sealed until the day of redemption. We are redeemed by the Blood now.
Yes, this is what the scripture says; the sealing of the spirit is the declaration that we are HIS. I believe that it is visbale to the unseen realm. Yes, indeed we are redeemed now. We are now on the earth as he is in heaven the scriptrue says. We are new creatures. Spirit born creatures. We are not what we were. I believe that this is literal. I believe that in this mortal shell, we are a new creature, spiritual Body, and Spirit being. Again, it is this very thing that makes me to believe that healing of the mortal body is really immaterial to the church. If our mortal body is ill, we are well; If our mortal body is well, we are well. To live is Christ, to die gain. We are at peace, in JOY, complete, whole, seated with HIM in the heavenlies, citizens of heaven, NOW regardless of the place or condition of the mortal body. We are not mortal bodies. We have mortal bodies. We living souls who have become spirit creatures and reside temporarily in earthen vessels.
quote:
Healing is past present and future tenses.
Yes, I agree. What I dont agree with is that our mortal bodies are guaranteed healing from sickness and disease in this life of linear time and space. This body is meant to corrupt. I on the otherhand am now as we speak healed of all things that have ever opressed me or will ever oppress me. I am not a mortal BODY I have one. And Mortal means it is subject to corruption.
We the church have something that no other humans before us or any humans after us will ever have and that is ONEness with Christ - We are HIS body and I dont care how much cancer your mortal body possesses, Christ does not have cancer. We are from above. Born of GOD. We have everlasting life now - this mortal body does not and is not ever going to inherit everlasting life... that is not for the flesh and blood of Mortal bodies.
quote:
God never intended that our flesh be sinful, that was not his will.
Do you think that Adam before the fall looked like you and me and Jesus? I dont. We are told that Jesus came in the image of sinful flesh.
Adam died. Men teach that Adam died spiritually, but I challenge you to find that in the Bible. Adam died. God said Adam would die and I believe that what God said happened. Adam died.
I believe that Adam left the garden looking very different than the Adam who was created in the image of God. I dont believe that the image of God is the image of sinful flesh. I believe that the image of God is the express image of the risen Christ.
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
I believe that God puposed us to be conformed to the image of Christ from the foundation. I believe that man was created with full knowledge that he would sin and that in his sinning; he would die; God would redeem him and God would become God all in all. I believe that man was created as part of God's plan to destroy evil and bring Satan to just judgement and become God all in all.
quote:
God created us and saw that it was good. God created us to be His children and He hates the sin that corrupted our flesh and made a provision to save us.
I dont see our redemption as a reaction on the part of God to man's sin. I see our redemption as the plan from the beginning. Christ was manifest to destroy the works of the devil and we are begat by HIS spirit to be conformed into HIS image.
quote:
God doesn't hate our human forms. He created us.
God does want us to be healed here and now.
God heals our mortal bodies as it serves his purpose. God allows our bodies to suffer corruption as it serves HIS purpose.
quote:
We are the ones who have to die to self daily, and since we do it daily, I don't think Paul meant we commit suicide every day to destroy our own flesh.
You lost me here. Sorry. Yes we die daily, by giving our bodies as living sacrifice, surrendered to HIS will.
quote:
It's a spiritual discipline that come only through the power of Christ. We are being changed by the renewing of our minds. When the mind is healed the body can be healed, both are connected, God made us that way.
There is a mind of the flesh and a mind of the Spirit. When the mind is renewed, we demonstrate the perfect will of God and that will is that we are conformed to the image of Christ. Christ's image is not now the image of sinful flesh or mortal bodies. When the mind is renewed we understand that we are well and have peace, joy and power in the Holy Ghost no matter the condition, state, or place of our mortal bodies.
I dont understand the term "spiritual discipline"
Please know that I am NOT denying that God heals!!! I know that God heals. What I am denying is that healing of this mortal body in this life is guaranteed to us by the blood. That is not true. He heals the mortal bodies of whom HE wills,when He wills, as it serves HIS specific purpose.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
White Eagle,
Please explain why if healing is based on the faith of those praying whether they are healed or not, why one was healed and one was not when the same people were praying.
"My Pastor in Houston back about 30 years ago was diagnosed with inoperable cancer. The doctors said he would die. The Church, him and his wife prayed and God healed him. He is still pasturing a Church at age 78. His wife inherited MD. She has it and so does one of her daughter. The same group of people prayed for her. If the Pastor was healed because of the faith of the people, why did the faith of the very same people not heal his wife?"
----------------
Yesterday our Pastor was talking about God healed the lame man through Peter, but he said that man was at his highest point of health the moment of the healing for from that moment on his body would began to fall apart. Why? Because as long as we are on earth we will live in corruptible bodies, until God gives us a glorified body. Nowhere in the Bible did God give anyone incorruptible body on this earth. Every person Jesus healed eventually died. The healing was NOT permanent. The problem comes from World of Faith people who teach people like you that we will all be healed. When it doesn’t happen, then the Church does not have an answer so they blame the victim. It is the person’s fault because they are not healed. Then you are taking the miracle of God away from God and giving credit to the person healed. Then you might as well say: “What wonderful faith John, has, he healed himself with his faith!” As I have said before, when I was 5 I had already developed an attention problem. But, back then they had never heard of it, so my family dragged me to every healing service to be healed. I saw some people that were healed and some were not. I was not. Of course you would blame a 5 year old for not having enough faith, BA, would say it was because I was a lazy Christian, the only one right person, would have been the person last year that said I was not heal because I was a sinner because I had not gotten saved until 7. But, Jesus healed a child in the Bible He never saw face to face. I honestly do not know why our Pastor was healed and his wife was not. You in fact do not know why I have not been healed. But, that does not stop you from judging me for my lack of healing. Your words are painful and cut to the core. Unlike you I believe healing comes from God. Just as he turned the water into wine, I believe He heals who He wants to. I also think that He will have something to say about people like you who seek to destroy the wounded. As the Evangelist said last week: He has to deal with people like you all the time, who blame his child because his child was born with an aliment that has made her handicapped. He said God will punish those who seek to destroy those who have diseases and sickness that God, has allowed them for His own reason to endure.
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
White Eagle,
Please explain why if healing is based on the faith of those praying whether they are healed or not, why one was healed and one was not when the same people were praying.
"My Pastor in Houston back about 30 years ago was diagnosed with inoperable cancer. The doctors said he would die. The Church, him and his wife prayed and God healed him. He is still pasturing a Church at age 78. His wife inherited MD. She has it and so does one of her daughter. The same group of people prayed for her. If the Pastor was healed because of the faith of the people, why did the faith of the very same people not heal his wife?"
----------------
Yesterday our Pastor was talking about God healed the lame man through Peter, but he said that man was at his highest point of health the moment of the healing for from that moment on his body would began to fall apart. Why? Because as long as we are on earth we will live in corruptible bodies, until God gives us a glorified body. Nowhere in the Bible did God give anyone incorruptible body on this earth. Every person Jesus healed eventually died. The healing was NOT permanent. The problem comes from World of Faith people who teach people like you that we will all be healed. When it doesn’t happen, then the Church does not have an answer so they blame the victim. It is the person’s fault because they are not healed. Then you are taking the miracle of God away from God and giving credit to the person healed. Then you might as well say: “What wonderful faith John, has, he healed himself with his faith!” As I have said before, when I was 5 I had already developed an attention problem. But, back then they had never heard of it, so my family dragged me to every healing service to be healed. I saw some people that were healed and some were not. I was not. Of course you would blame a 5 year old for not having enough faith, BA, would say it was because I was a lazy Christian, the only one right person, would have been the person last year that said I was not heal because I was a sinner because I had not gotten saved until 7. But, Jesus healed a child in the Bible He never saw face to face. I honestly do not know why our Pastor was healed and his wife was not. You in fact do not know why I have not been healed. But, that does not stop you from judging me for my lack of healing. Your words are painful and cut to the core. Unlike you I believe healing comes from God. Just as he turned the water into wine, I believe He heals who He wants to. I also think that He will have something to say about people like you who seek to destroy the wounded. As the Evangelist said last week: He has to deal with people like you all the time, who blame his child because his child was born with an aliment that has made her handicapped. He said God will punish those who seek to destroy those who have diseases and sickness that God, has allowed them for His own reason to endure.
betty
We hear or see of babies born with birth defects or inherited diseases all the time. My husband has a 22 year old son who is severely mentally retarded and has bi-polar. Babies who die with cancer that are only 1 or 2 years old, and so many people that are sick and suffer greatly.
Believe me I have compassion as much as the next person and probably more than many people.
So I seek answers to the sufferings, maybe it's wrong to seek these deep things, but I do.
Medically we have some answers such as genes and inheritance or illness from chemicals or radiation or pesticides, or pollution, etc etc,etc.
We all agree innocent people suffer.
But illnesses also have a spiritual component to them, and this has been acknowledged for ages.
The Old Testament talks about curses that go to the 10th generation or various generations due to certain sins. Perhaps the pastor's wife inherited this through her family line. There are many spiritual things that we don't even know about that get passed down through generations.
That's why the disciples asked Jesus that question about the man blind from birth. The Jews were aware of these generational curses.
Jesus told them that this was NOT the case for that man, so I agree that many are sick from birth through no fault of their parents or family line.
But the majority of people Jesus healed in the Gospels didn't seem to be in that catagory.
Jesus always remarked on their faith as being the reason He healed them, and by their faith he forgave them their sins at the same time.
Jesus states He healed to prove that He has the power to forgive sins.
As Christians we can pray for God to break the family curses on us, as Jesus states we can bind or loose.
Betty, you will learn so much more by studying the Bible yourself, and I know you do, but you are just giving me quotes of what your pastor said.
Don't take what any person says, always go to the source yourself. Nothing against your pastor. Don't believe me either. Get with the Lord and inquire of HIm.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
Linda,
I'll try to respond to you later, as I'm quite tired now.
Spiritual discipline
Where do I begin??????
Bodily exercise profits little....but godliness is beneficial in every way. 1 Tim 4:8
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
I would like to make some comments re your last
post HFHS. You didn't address this person by name, but I will try to sort what comments came from whom.
quote:
We became corrupted in the flesh and now all of us are born with a sin nature called the flesh.
From you HFHS -Sin nature is a "man's" word. Sin nature is not in the Bible. I would say that we are naturally born with sin in our flesh, when we are born in the flesh. We are born to our earthly parents with a human earthy nature and our image is one of sinful flesh.
My response -Romans 8:8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
quote:
Satan gains ground on people when we do sin, and we suffer from the sins of others to us.
From HFHS -hmmm. I am not sure I understand "gains ground" Satan has dominion over the flesh of man as man is servant to sin. In the born again man, Satan has no authority because he is heavenly creature not an earthy one, but when man choses to walk in the flesh and mind the things of the flesh, then man delivers himself over to the one that has dominion over things earthly... Where the mind goes the body follows. Sow to the flesh reap the flesh etc. So, for the born again, Satan has no power as long as we remain in the spirit. But sin is still present in the mortal body and continues to work corruption until the day our spirit separates from the mortal body in what we call death.
From Me - I think you answered your own question HFHS but with different words. As far as suffering "from sins of others to us", I think we both would have to agree with that statement. Also sins can pass from one generation to the next.
Daniel 9:16 O Lord, according to all Your rightness and justice, I beseech You, let Your anger and Your wrath be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain. Because of our sins and the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become a reproach and a byword to all who are around about us.
From HFHS - Adam died. Men teach that Adam died spiritually, but I challenge you to find that in the Bible.
My Response - Often sin is referred to as a spiritual death in the Bible.
Romans 5:12-17Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to ondemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
quote:
It's a spiritual discipline that come only through the power of Christ. We are being changed by the renewing of our minds. When the mind is healed the body can be healed, both are connected, God made us that way.
From HFHS -There is a mind of the flesh and a mind of the Spirit. When the mind is renewed, we demonstrate the perfect will of God and that will is that we are conformed to the image of Christ. Christ's image is not now the image of sinful flesh or mortal bodies. When the mind is renewed we understand that we are well and have peace, joy and power in the Holy Ghost no matter the condition, state, or place of our mortal bodies.
I dont understand the term "spiritual discipline"
My Response - We always have to be constantly reminding ourselves of the necessity of keeping in the centre of God's will.
Joshua 23:6 "Be very strong; be careful to obey all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
As Christians we can pray for God to break the family curses on us, as Jesus states we can bind or loose.
Christians do not suffer "Generational Curses"
http://www.gotquestions.org/generational-curses.html
Question: "What does the Bible say about breaking generational curses?"
Answer: The Bible mentions “generational curses” in several places (Exodus 20:5; 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9). It sounds unfair for God to punish children for the sins of their fathers. However, this is looking at it from an earthly perspective. God knows that sin is passed down from one generation to the next. When a father has a sinful lifestyle, his children are likely to have the same sinful lifestyle as well. That is why it is not unjust for God to punish sin to the third or fourth generation – because they are committing the same sins their ancestors did. They are being punished for their own sins, not the sins of their ancestors. The Bible specifically tells us that God does not hold children accountable for the sins of their parents (Deuteronomy 24:16).
There is a trend in the church today to try and blame every sin and problem on some sort of generational curse. This is not Biblical. The cure for generational curses is salvation through Jesus Christ. When we become Christians, we are new creations (2 Corinthians 5:17). How can a child of God still be under God’s curse (Romans 8:1)? The cure, then, for a generational curse is faith in Christ and a life consecrated to Him (Romans 12:1-2).
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Christians do not suffer "Generational Curses"
It is a well known fact that cancer and heart disease can pass from one generation to the next.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Ezekiel 18
1The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,
2What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
3As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die…
Continuing in Exekiel 18:
quote:
18As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:[/b] the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
This is talking about our souls, not curses. We all are responsible for our own salvation.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
As the article said... "How can a child of God be under a Curse from God?"
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
I am not saying that at all, but sometimes we have to pray for those curses to be rebuked and bound in the name of Jesus.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
I am not saying that at all, but sometimes we have to pray for those curses to be rebuked and bound in the name of Jesus.
That just doesn't make any sense... When you are Covered by the Blood of Jesus, you are no longer under any curse from God.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
When you are Covered by the Blood of Jesus, you are no longer under any curse from God.
Agreed -God never sends curses. How many times have we heard of people who are still enslaved to cigarettes or homosexuality, to name just a couple, after becoming converted. These demons still have to be uprooted; sometimes it takes months.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Comparing an illness which a person has no control of to a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle is insulting to anyone who has an illness. Illness is NOT sin. A person who has inherited an illness did not make a choice to become ill. This is a new low for this thread.
betty
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
I've just been reading in the Old Testament that the LORD has absolute control over everything.
The LORD will not hesitate to bring evil upon those who reject Him and upon the heathen later on the day of the LORD when the LORD will take control of the earth.
The LORD blesses those who seek Him early, but He sets obstacles in the way of the wicked and on the day of the LORD will totally dominate the earth from the land of Israel.
The LORD does create evil and good. But illness probably comes from our energy-depleted sin nature. Where the fullness of the Lord standing before us and we could go to Him, the glory inside of Him could recharge us again, and drive the illness from us.
Which raises the question, Is it more difficult to get healed now from the written Word than it was in Jesus's day when they were looking at the Living Word?
The Living Word healed everyone who came to Him. But fewer are being healed from the written Word, unless one were to count the healed persons over the centuries compared to the number the Living Word healed in His 3-1/2 years of ministry.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Which raises the question, Is it more difficult to get healed now from the written Word than it was in Jesus's day when they were looking at the Living Word?
The Living Word healed everyone who came to Him. But fewer are being healed from the written Word, unless one were to count the healed persons over the centuries compared to the number the Living Word healed in His 3-1/2 years of ministry.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Jesus is still the Living Word; Christ in you the hope of Glory.
I think the problem is that today we don't fully grasp that promise and truth. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. Jesus is the Word become flesh. He is the Living Word today.
Many denominations look at the Bible as truth, but apply it like it was history. not truth to be applied for today.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Comparing an illness which a person has no control of to a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle is insulting to anyone who has an illness. Illness is NOT sin. A person who has inherited an illness did not make a choice to become ill. This is a new low for this thread.
betty
I'm sorry you are insulted. We are all in the same boat.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
His Grace, are you saying that the Blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient upon conversion of the Believer to break any and all generational curses?
I am not saying that at all, but sometimes we have to pray for those curses to be rebuked and bound in the name of Jesus.
That just doesn't make any sense... When you are Covered by the Blood of Jesus, you are no longer under any curse from God.
While we are alive in human form we are all under the curse of sin in this life. generational curses are established by Adam and Eve, as sin entered the world through their actions. All generations inherited this.
Yes the Blood of Christ washes our sins away, but Paul writes that we will still struggle with the flesh.
We can be born again and saved from our sins and still suffer from generational curses. That's why Peter writes for us to work out our Salvation with fear and trembling, and why Paul writes that we are new creatures by the renewing of our minds.
It's a process of Sanctification. We are becoming more like Christ, but it doens't happen instantly.
We can only walk in the Truth we know and have inside our hearts.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
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Linda I agree we really don't disagree over that much and most of it is sematics of words.
1-On choice:
Even the unsaved have a choice and that choice is to accept or reject Christ. God created all of us with freewill.
On Adam being created in God's image: I see that you have made a distinction about this.
You seem to believe that Adam before sin looked different then the Adam after sin, and that the rest of us are not created in God's image but Adam's image only.
I believe we are still made in the image of God, though faulty through the Fall. Spiritually we are not able to have communion with God until we are saved, and it's still not as intimate as Adam's communion with God was.
When God told Adam he would die, the text actually says "Dying you will die".
Adam's body began dying that very day physically as sin began to have it's way. Spiritually Adam died at that moment and ceased to be able to have communion with God, and animal sacrifice for sin had to be made for any intimacy with God and for forgiveness of sins.
2-Satan gaining ground
This is a spiritual concept. When we agree to sin, then satan has more power in our life, to torment, to hurt, and we also will reap what we sow. Conversely when we agree with God and His Word will be overcome in the spirit through Christ's power and authority. Satan also will can ground when we allow him to assault our minds with lies and then accept those lies. Example: "lies that say we are condemmed, when we are really saved."
3- You say; "I believe my body is dead now."
I say, that, I have Christ in me, the hope of Glory. I struggle to put my body's wants and desires into subjection daily as Paul writes about. Sometimes I walk in the Spirit and sometimes I do walk in the flesh. It's only through the power of the Holy Spirit that I can walk in the Spirit. My body is alive and kicking and it's a daily struggle to die to self.
4-You say: "I believe that healing of the mortal body is immaterial to the church."
Your reasoning is basically: My paraphasing; " Since we are new creatures in Christ spiritually, will inherit an incorruptible body, that what happens to our mortal body is on no importance, since we will be worm food."
Here I obviously disagree with you. Why? When we inherit our incorruptble body or after we die and will be with Christ, our work on earth will have ceased. We will not be able to do anything more to bring more people into God's Kingdom after we have died.
If as a Christian we are crippled emotionally, physically, or mentally, we will not be able to sow to the Kingdom of God or be able to witness to others as Satan will have made us ineffective to God's Kingdom.
That is the point, perhaps the healing of the mortal body is temporal, but the effects of it can be eternal, if just one person believes in God due to our changed life and healing.
I heartily disagree with this statement:
"Do you think that Adam before the fall looked like you and me and Jesus? I don't. We are told that Jesus came in the image of sinful flesh."
Jesus did come in the flesh when He was born of a virgin. Jesus had no seed of man within Him, so His flesh was not sinful. That's the beauty of it.
As you states sin is passed down through men. Jesus' Father is God Almighty. Mary conceived through the Holy Spirit. Jesus was born without the genes of men. Flesh is sinful through our father Adam. Flesh was not created to be sinful originally. Jesus is our Kinsman Redeemer.
I believe Adam looked better than we do, He was good and we have rather devolved since that time, but yes I believe Adam looked much as we do, only enhanced and more perfect in all ways, before the fall.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
BA
"The LORD blesses those who seek Him early, but He sets obstacles in the way of the wicked and on the day of the LORD will totally dominate the earth from the land of Israel."
I don't understand your point. I got saved at the age of 7. So did I inherit this disease because I did not get saved a year, earlier?
betty
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Comparing an illness which a person has no control of to a choice to live a homosexual lifestyle is insulting to anyone who has an illness. Illness is NOT sin. A person who has inherited an illness did not make a choice to become ill. This is a new low for this thread.
betty
Please don't get upset by personally taking every post you see on healing as a target against you, Sister Betty. Your illness is a private matter between you and God, and obviously you at peace with His answer.
There are many different scenarious, and just as many reasons for healing, or not healing. Every case is different.
Luke 13:32 mentions demons and healing in the same sentence. The reality is Jesus said these words himself and we can't erase them from the Bible. If I happen to quote such a scripture, that doesn't mean I am intending it for you personally or anyone else on this Board.
Luke 13:32 Jesus replied. "Go tell that fox that I will keep on casting out demons and doing miracles of healing today and tomorrow; and the third day I will accomplish my purpose.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
Not to worry.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
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Christians are not under Generational Curses or any other Curse.
The following is a ‘snippet’ of a very good article on Christians and Curses. It’s a long one though, so I’m only posting this part of it.
"Everyone at one time or another because of circumstances that seemed so bad probably had the thought run through their mind, “am I cursed.” If you listen to some of the popular teachers today it just may reinforce this false thought. With all the books and teachings on Generational Curses, familiar spirits, family curses, that hinder the work of God in a region or country, or ones own family. One wonders how anyone can survive this onslaught of the enemy from the past. Generational repentance is taught as the method needed to break these curses, spiritual mapping is used to target the strongholds the enemy has had in the family along with a host of other non-biblical teachings. Even people who are poor need to break the curse of poverty, because it is blamed on a curse placed on your family finances somewhere in the past. If poverty is always a curse, then we have a whole continent(s) that is cursed. Furthermore, we must admit the apostles had a curse, because they were poor. They say so themselves (1 Corinthians 4:11-12; Acts 3:6). Jesus asked the rich man to give away his goods to the poor (Mark 10:21-22). We do not see him break a curse of poverty for people who are poor, in fact the Bible says the poor are rich in faith (James 2:5), which is what is needed to be pleasing to God. In the beginning of the Church the apostles received a large amount of goods and money which they distributed “according to each person’s need” (Acts 2:45). Romans 15:26: “For it pleased those from Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are in Jerusalem.” When Paul took money from one church to help another, he had nothing to say about a curse of poverty. Why do some people read into Scripture what is not there? I could go on and on and cite many more examples to see the silliness of this teaching, but this should be sufficient to see it is correct.
It is not my intention to address any specific teachers philosophy on this subject but in general look at the common teaching shared by them all. Today, the teaching of curses it has been popularized by Neil Anderson, Joyce Meyers, Marilyn Hickey, Larry Huch, Benny Hinn, Cleansing Streams and many more. You will find that 90% of their teaching on curses is from the Old Testament, Why? Because you cannot justify this teaching by New Testament! There are some who have written books and devoted their whole ministry to taking care of a curse that is not mentioned in the New Testament.
In the New Testament, in Jesus’ ministry He cursed only one thing-- the fig tree, saying, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again,” and the fig tree withered (Mt. 21:19; Mark 11:14).
He also spoke about curses from people. In the only reference in the New Testament where He tells us what to do if someone cursed us, Jesus said, “Bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you” (Luke 6:28). He did not give us fancy methods, or special words on how to break curses. He taught the believers specifically how to deal with curses without any superstitious teachings that would bring fear of an evil that would occur to them. BLESS THEM. In other words-- do good to them by your actions; try to reach them. Jesus did not give a supernatural spiritual solution but a very practical one-- do what they would have done by someone who is their friend and cares for them.
Why do these teachers disregard Jesus’ own words of what we are to do if people curse us? They produce a false teaching that leads you away from the simplicity in Christ.
People a who are very zealous and intend on purging themselves to reach a higher degree of sanctification are susceptible to these type of teachings. They desire to be purified from all the things of the Devil, so they go on this journey of discovery to release themselves of anything that would block this freedom. Eventually one can find a curse behind every problem they have. Just like those in deliverance ministries blame nearly everything that goes wrong on Demonic activity. Something goes wrong and immediately you think its the outworking of some curse. This becomes a very unkind teaching that actually punishes those who are going through fiery trials. Any, hurtful, negative or critical word spoken can become a curse on your life. What a way to live. It’s like avoiding the cracks in the sidewalk.
There are only a few times the word curse, curses or cursed occurs in the New Testament. The word curses is found only once in the New Testament and it is referring to an Old Testament law (Exodus 21:17; Leviticus 20:9). In Mark 7:8-13 (also Matthew 15:3-5) Jesus said to the Pharisees who neglected their family feigning their dedication for the things of God, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother;’ and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban” (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down.” At this time they were still under the law which punishment was death, as Jesus reminded them to show that they were not obeying the law.
Jesus taught, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you” (Matthew 5:43-44). Paul repeats this to the church in Romans 12:14-15: “Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.”
James speaking on the right use of our tongue, he explains, (3:9-10) “With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God.” James is not making a connection between what is spoken about someone and these words actually manufacturing a problem in someone’s life. James is addressing our attitude toward our fellow man; he is simply saying that if we are still cursing (speaking ill) and this is not conducive to the new creation in the believer’s life, he may even be referring to what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount. We are to have respect for people because everyone is made in God’s image. There is a difference between the damage that words do to a person, hurting them emotionally, to injure or sever a relationship and having a curse come upon them that will affect their life and others afterwards. To those trained in word-faith theology this idea of being cursed by words is only an outworking of their false premise on speaking faith. So if enough negative words are spoken (heard or not) you have cast a lasting curse that affects another persons life. Take for example Peter who cursed and denied Jesus during his trial and said he did not know him (Mk14:71). If a curse had the power that many attribute to them then what would have become of Peter? It was Jesus himself who restored Peter.
What did the apostles teach concerning generational curses? Nothing! Not once do we see the apostles warn the church about any problem could be traced to curse from their far past. Can we find a Scripture that tells us how to identify generational curses and its affect in our lives? No. This teaching is extra biblical revelation and an addition to the power of the Gospel to set one free. If one begins a discovery course of finding out their ailment or problem caused by a curse they certainly can be overwhelmed. It certainly can rob you of the peace that Christ wants you to have. If you allow yourself to receive this teaching, it you will bring you into its bondage.
The closest concept we have of something being cursed in the New Testament is by the word anathema. Which means a thing devoted to destruction- the judgment of God will be exercised on it. The apostle Paul said one is accursed if they preach a false gospel (Gal. 1:8-9). It is an anathema- this excommunicates a thing or a person (Rom.1:9) to eternal destruction.
Paul also addresses a “curse,” in a twofold way by stating if you go back under the law you are cursed. Gal. 3:10: “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
“Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” (Gal 3:13).
You can read the full article here: http://www.letusreason.org/Wf47.htm
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
I am sure there is not one person on this Board whose family, or have personal friends whose family, have not been touched by some sort of handicap, be it physical, chemical imbalance, or cognitive. I have tried to make it clear that I don't believe it is always sin that has made someone handicapped.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
Amen Sister Betty! But the only thing that really matters is what God thinks of us ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Amen Sister Betty! But the only thing that really matters is what God thinks of us
A big 'Amen' from this pew also -
2 Cor.12:9 So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may work through me.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
I had mentioned that my Preacher’s wife in Houston suffers from MD. She has two daughters. One is also a Preacher’s wife and a principal of local school. She has always been devoted to God, her family and to her Church. The other daughter while a sweet lady, has been more involved with self issues and attends Church only on major Holidays. The one who is the Preacher’s wife inherited the MD, the other one did not. We can look at both girls and wonder why God allowed this to happen, but the truth only God knows His ways.
In my own family, the disease was harder on me and my grandmother than my mom and my sister. My grandmother was the sweetest woman I have ever known and she endured the disease with grace and humility, I pray that I can do so as well.
betty
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
Sister SoftTouch, that article of letusreason was a good one. Thanks for sharing that. Jesus has redeemed us from the curse.
Amen to that. God bless. BORN AGAIN
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
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Whew! I cant keep up with you ladies!
I think that I am done in this thread; no sense beating a dead horse on the things that we do not agree on. Just a couple of things I have to comment on.
If you are a new creature in Christ born again of God, you no longer live, but Christ lives in you, then you are free of generational curses.
We are positioned NOW in heaven.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
On the sins of the Father passing to the son etc..
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.
Generational Curses were under the Law and the church is not under the Law.
White Eagle this was the scripture I was refering to on the image of Jesus...
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
An image is a likeness.
You said Jesus was born without genes of man.. I am notsure if you mean an earthly father or if you mean human genes.
Jesus was the seed of the woman and Jesus had Mary's genes; He did not have have an earthly father he was genetically the seed of the woman and begotten BY the Holy Spirit.
Yes of Course HE was genetically without sin; sinless blood, sinless flesh, sinless nature. Image of sinful flesh.
Had no sin in HIM; Did no sin.
I dont believe that we chose Christ; the scripture says he chooses us. I do not believe in free will to chose God.
quote:
If as a Christian we are crippled emotionally, physically, or mentally, we will not be able to sow to the Kingdom of God or be able to witness to others as Satan will have made us ineffective to God's Kingdom.
That is the point, perhaps the healing of the mortal body is temporal, but the effects of it can be eternal, if just one person believes in God due to our changed life and healing.
Part of our rebirth, is a sound mind, and the mind of Christ. I was thinking on this yesterday and the way you feel about physical healing I feel about mental healing. The Body is part that we will leave here and since God alone determins when that will happen, physical healing or the lack there of is immmaterial to me. His grace is sufficient in the presence of physical illness. But our mind is part of the living soul and I believe that mental illness is opression of the enemy that we are free from by the rebirth. I believe that in this life we may have to endure physical limitations, but I believe that mental health is ours lock stock and barrel part of our salvation.
I do not speak of someone who is by physical injury or deformity limited mentally. That is a physical problem of the mortal body not the Mental illness.
His Grace:
Roman's 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
quote:
I think we both would have to agree with that statement. Also sins can pass from one generation to the next.
No we dont agree. Under the Law, God visted the sins of the Father on the sunsequent generations. We are not under law. The end of this passing of the sins of the father to the son was prophesied in Ezekiel.
quote:
Often sin is referred to as a spiritual death in the Bible.
Can you show me these often references?
I only find death of the body; destruction of the soul. I do not find death of the spirit anywhere nor do I find that death of the body or destruction of the soul is spiritual.
quote:
We always have to be constantly reminding ourselves of the necessity of keeping in the centre of God's will.
See I dont think that we have to be constantly reminding ourselves to keep in the center of HIS will. I think that we are kept in HIS will by the Holy Spirit, when we mind the things of the Spirit, walk in the Spirit. I also do not think that we need struggle with the flesh.
Well, ladies this has been intersting but I am retiring from this thread. I guess that in some regards there will not be unity among us before HE returns.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
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HisGrace,
God bless you and thanks for the hug. I must admit there are times, when the pain is bad and at times, hubby has to help me walk for my first few steps after sitting for a long period, but God has given me peace. I know His love substains me. One weird thing, I have always been a very nervous person, but my family has made comments about how since I first started getting ill back in 1994, I have become more calm and relaxed. It was almost like from day one God has given me a peace that He will be with me.
I have never felt I was fighting a losing battle but walking a journey with Jesus by my side. Oh, I am not perfect and when I have a couple of bad days in a row, I get get cranky, but God is so good to me.
betty
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
May the Lord continue to guide with his peaceful protection Betty.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Whew! I cant keep up with you ladies!
I think that I am done in this thread; no sense beating a dead horse on the things that we do not agree on. Just a couple of things I have to comment on.
Since it seems as if the horse has laid down, but is still kicking, I would like to respond to your comments that responded to my comments. I think we making ourselves dizzy.
quote:
His Grace:
Roman's 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
quote:I think we both would have to agree with that statement. Also sins can pass from one generation to the next.
From HFHS -No we dont agree. Under the Law, God visted the sins of the Father on the sunsequent generations. We are not under law. The end of this passing of the sins of the father to the son was prophesied in Ezekiel.
What statment? - something is missing here Linda. Romans 8:8 was in response to something you had said. I had moved on to another statement since then, which isn't showing in your quote.
Anyway, in response to sins passing down through generations. You said that we are no longer under the law, but I would like to say that law can only be bound through the saving blood of Jesus. We have to accept it personally into our own lives.
quote:
From HG - Often sin is referred to as a spiritual death in the Bible.
From Linda -Can you show me these often references?
I only find death of the body; destruction of the soul. I do not find death of the spirit anywhere nor do I find that death of the body or destruction of the soul is spiritual.
Notice I said 'spiritual' not Spirit. The soul is also a spiritual side of us.
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
Romans 5:21
So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God's wonderful kindness rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
quote:
From HG -We always have to be constantly reminding ourselves of the necessity of keeping in the centre of God's will.
From HFHS -See I dont think that we have to be constantly reminding ourselves to keep in the center of HIS will. I think that we are kept in HIS will by the Holy Spirit, when we mind the things of the Spirit, walk in the Spirit. I also do not think that we need struggle with the flesh.
Does your flesh never run off onto the ditch. I know I have to constantly guard my heart from running onto the ditch. As long as we are in these fleshly bodies, we will have to constantly struggle against pride, resentment etc. It is all part of the sanctification process.
Proverbs 4:23 Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
I had to chuckle at your Dizzy comment, that was how I felt trying to keep up with you guys last night.
I think that we see this walk very differently and also what is ours as part of our redemption.
We could go in circles with some of this stuff and there is no point.
The scriptures in Duteronomy used to be my Siggy here for a couple of years. I love them, but those were given to the Israelites living under the law... they are about choices that we make in the day to day and in the body... this is exactly what I was refering to when I spoke of things that we do in the body that keep us from experiencing the best that we could experience in the body. Eating things we should not etc. If I chose I can do things that will make this life worse than it need be. I agree.
I fear though that you speak of apples and I oranges. We have something that the Israelites did not have. We have life from above in this life. I is lived in the body that is bound to the earth, but it allows us to rise above that which is bound to the earth. To have peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost even though the body is sick, even if we are imprisioned, even while being burned at the stake, even when all our hair falls out and we dont have the strength to raise ourselves from the bed, even when our joints hurt so bad that our leg muscles tremble with lack of strength to hold up oour torso and the pain is seering red hot pain that seems to be without end.
I just wanted to answer what was a question in your last post:
quote:
Does your flesh never run off onto the ditch. I know I have to constantly guard my heart from running onto the ditch. As long as we are in these fleshly bodies, we will have to constantly struggle against pride, resentment etc. It is all part of the sanctification process.
The mind of my flesh does get the upper hand at times. I might get angry and run my mouth and say ugly things. Not very often, but it does happen. But I do not struggle with my flesh. When I sin, I confess and I move on. To me struggle occurs when the mind of your flesh wants to do one thing and the mind of your spirit another. I find that less and less this is the case. I have learned that the flesh is always going to want what is contrary to the spirit and I have found that if we do not mind (pay attention to- think on - give a hoot) about the things that the flesh wants and keep our minds on the spirit then there is little struggle.
There are few things that I once struggled with that I struggle with today. I dont desire to do much that was once sin to me; God has taken the desire. The things that would cause struggle I dont go there. Like not visiting old neighborhoods. Do you know what I mean? I used to struggle with control, today I know I have no control over anything except HOW I respspond to things. That is the only real choice I have - to walk in spirit or flesh. I used to struggle with authority, I dont struggle with authority today BY HIS power not mine If I disagree with authority in my life I state my case and I submit agree or not. I used to struggle with sexual sin. I have no desire to sin sexually any more... its just not a temptation. I used to battle with power issues; I have no desire today for any kind of power. I used to when I was young steal. I have no desire what so ever to have any other person's stuff. I am content with what I have. I used to struggle with lying in my youth. I have no desire to lie today. Today my battles are more with frustrations of the limitations of my humanity... For example. My oldest daughter you know and I have shared is really in a bad place, She is very carnal and claims to be a Christian. I struggle because I cant impart to her things that the spirit has taught me; I have to wait for the spirit to work in her and I become frustrated and it comes out in yelling at her or saying things like... when are you gonna get this? That is where I have to guard my heart.
I used to think of sanctification as our becoming more HOLY; today I understand that we are wholly sanctified now and we are Wholly HOLY now because HE is and sanctification is learning to sanctify HIM in our hearts and as we do this BY his power because even that we can not will ourselves to do, We become more like Jesus and less like Adam - sanctification is our learning to DIE that HE lives in us.
The deeds of the flesh are mortified as our minds are renewed and washed in the word that our human minds become more and more like the minds of our spirit life which is the sound mind of Christ.
If I determine that I am no longer from this day forward going to do (Blank) I am going to fail because the flesh is weak. I have to determin that I am going to rest in HIM. He will do HIS part, my part is to die and let him live. He does not sin or lie or struggle with the flesh.
To me... for me... all this focus on physical healing is a setting of the mind on the flesh. If the mind is on the flesh, it is not on the spirit. If it is on the spirit there is no struggle.
Posted by Kurt (Member # 5193) on
:
Hello,
I noticed that alot of people on here are talking about the rapture. Many of you have given the link to Rapture Ready. I would like to suggest a link as well that gives the other side of the rapture debate. I think we should review both sides. As for me I am still researching but there does seem to be some problems with the rapture. Just some food for thought.
www.rapturerebuttal.com
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Kurt
First Post
Member # 5193
Icon 1 posted October 26, 2005 02:07 PM Profile for Kurt Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Hello,
I noticed that alot of people on here are talking about the rapture. Many of you have given the link to Rapture Ready. I would like to suggest a link as well that gives the other side of the rapture debate. I think we should review both sides. As for me I am still researching but there does seem to be some problems with the rapture. Just some food for thought.
www.rapturerebuttal.com Posts: 1 | Registered: Oct 2005 | IP: Logged |
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here is some dialogue on the Rapture, in the Bible Topics forum:
http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004066
I am sure that you can post ALL of your concerns in that current thread and you will have many responses. It has been debated time and again.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The scriptures in Duteronomy used to be my Siggy here for a couple of years. I love them, but those were given to the Israelites living under the law... they are about choices that we make in the day to day and in the body... this is exactly what I was refering to when I spoke of things that we do in the body that keep us from experiencing the best that we could experience in the body. Eating things we should not etc. If I chose I can do things that will make this life worse than it need be. I agree.
I fear though that you speak of apples and I oranges. We have something that the Israelites did not have. We have life from above in this life. I is lived in the body that is bound to the earth, but it allows us to rise above that which is bound to the earth. To have peace and Joy in the Holy Ghost even though the body is sick, even if we are imprisioned, even while being burned at the stake, even when all our hair falls out and we dont have the strength to raise ourselves from the bed, even when our joints hurt so bad that our leg muscles tremble with lack of strength to hold up oour torso and the pain is seering red hot pain that seems to be without end.
Upon reading more deeply into Deut 30 you will see that it is not just talking about the body, but the mores of their day.
Deut.30:15-20 "Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between prosperity and disaster, between life and death. have commanded you today to love the LORD your God and to keep his commands, laws, and regulations by walking in his ways. If you do this, you will live and become a great nation, and the LORD your God will bless you and the land you are about to enter and occupy.
But if your heart turns away and you refuse to listen, and if you are drawn away to serve and worship other gods, then I warn you now that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live a long, good life in the land you are crossing the Jordan to occupy.
"Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live! Choose to love the LORD your God and to obey him and commit yourself to him, for he is your life. Then you will live long in the land the LORD swore to give your ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
~You say that we are no longer under generational laws, but I am emphasizing that it is only through Jesus that we are not under these laws - we have to make a choice.
quote:
From HG -Does your flesh never run off onto the ditch. I know I have to constantly guard my heart from running onto the ditch. As long as we are in these fleshly bodies, we will have to constantly struggle against pride, resentment etc. It is all part of the sanctification process.
From HFHS -The mind of my flesh does get the upper hand at times. I might get angry and run my mouth and say ugly things. Not very often, but it does happen. But I do not struggle with my flesh. When I sin, I confess and I move on. To me struggle occurs when the mind of your flesh wants to do one thing and the mind of your spirit another. I find that less and less this is the case. I have learned that the flesh is always going to want what is contrary to the spirit and I have found that if we do not mind (pay attention to- think on - give a hoot) about the things that the flesh wants and keep our minds on the spirit then there is little struggle.
I agree when people say that sexual sin is a perversion against your own bodies, but we have to uproot all sin in the same manner, through the blood of Christ. Sexual sin can be a very obvious problem in one's life, and often right on the surface. A spirit of resentment that may be deep within our inner being and something we are not even aware of, may affect our health.
For those who have a weakness towards sexual sin, or addictions, they have a thorn in their flesh and may not know the cause for a number years.
quote:
To me.. for me... all this focus on physical healing is a setting of the mind on the flesh. If the mind is on the flesh, it is not on the spirit. If it is on the spirit there is no struggle.
Or at least, less of a struggle, but people have to be made aware of this.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
I am not sure that we see the thorn in the flesh the same way? I see that when Paul spoke of a thorn in the flesh it was something that kept him grounded.
I think that the more we become free in Christ, there is a danger of becoming prideful. I think that you can get to the place where you are just not bothered by the things of this world and you can be so heavenly focused that you are of no earthly good (someone said that and I like it for this point that I want to make) You can start to think more highly of yourself than you ought and that is SIN with a capital SSSSSSSSSS.
I see that Paul's thorn, was something he could not remove, and it was something that he prayed to God to remove and God said NO. Paul said it was a messenger of the enemy to buffet him... to PUNCH HIM. TO say SIN still lives in your flesh; You are still IN the earth.
I have since a child had Reumatoid Arthritis. It is a genetic disease, it is degenerative, it is progressively degenerative, today it is believed to be a kind of autoimmune problem and I have two other health issues that are also auto immune problems. My arthritis has been asymptomatic for more than 30 years. In fact even when it did give me occasional pain I did not think of it as arthritis. One day I told my husband, ughhh I dont know why but I can hardly move today. I have no idea why! He looked at me kind like "Well Hello! It is cold outside and you have arthritis." I had to laugh at myself, I dont think about having arthritis. In the past year, it has been getting seriously painful. I see these conditions as thorns.
I know that God could take them all from me in a second if he so desired and yet he does not. I no longer pray for him to take them.
I am well in spite of all that the enemy can send against my body and there are days that I cannot on my own stand and there are days that the pain is without end... burning seering pain that does not cease and brings tears to your eyes, but the enemy cannot steal my joy or my peace and if today I cant go out because I cant walk to my car oh well. Today I will stay home and praise HIM for giving me this day. CHRIST is OUR JOY and OUR PEACE!
I was driving to work today; I had to do do some work for my husband and today was a great day. I felt really good physically - recently the change of seasons has been hard... the cold weather gets in your bones, and I was thinking about this thorn thing and our conversations and I realized that if everyday was like today You would have to tie me down to keep me here mentally. Paul had seen heaven, I can see where staying here could be a problem. I see that a thorn in the flesh keeps us from thinking that we are invincible and reminds us that GOD ALONE is in control and we do live in a body with sin and this body is dying. Even that reminds me of what HE has done for me because I was once dying.. now only my mortal body is.
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
Yes, I agree with your explanation of 'the thorn' Linda.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Linda,
God bless you for your positive outlook. You know God can indeed use our suffering for His good. I had someone say to me, that they almost missed Church that night but when she thought about how faithful I was even though I was having a hard time getting around that winter, she came anyway. I am not saying that to pat my self on my back for being faithful, but it felt good that I could inspire someone else to be faithful to God. Today I walked a mile and half. It took 30 minutes with me walking with my cane, but I listen and sang with my praise and worship music. I felt exhausted and moved quite slowly to the car, but my heart was overwhelmed by the love I felt from God. We have been going to the Y for 3 months and I am slowly working my way up on distance with my walking. If my walking in to Church with my cane, is used only to inspire others to be faithful to God, then I am willing to be used by God for that purpose. I understand where you are coming from about the pain. It can be exhausting being in pain for days at a time. But God does indeed help us. God bless you Linda, and know that you are an inspiration to all of us here. You are a blessing to everyone you touch.
betty
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Exactly Betty! It is like those cute signs that you see that say "bloom where you are planted".
Dont think that I dont whine or complain it hurts and dont think that I dont stand at the door of the store gazing at my car in the parkinglot and have to say God your gonna have to get me there cause I dont know how I am gonna get myself there; and dont think that I dont get mad because this brain still likes to hike and to play ball and to run down the beach and the mind is willing and the flesh weak in that regard! BUT none of that changes US, who we are in HIM and WHo HE is in us and NONE of that is bigger than the PEACE and JOY of the Holy SPirit and HIS mercies are new every morning.
My husband ... he is amazing because he never ever complains about anything. Never. I dont care how tired he is or how much he might hurt or how much he has on his plate in a day and sometimes it is a lot. He stayed up and drove all night almost 500 miles home the other day to make my grandson's birthday party at 10:00 Am, and he had worked 12 hours that day to boot. Never a word not a single word of complaint. I long to be like that. When I ask him how he does that, he tells me a story of someone he knows who like you ... goes to church walkng with a cane in the snow... or he reminds me of the daughter of a friend of ours who is a a parapeledgic and always has a smile on her face and a kind word to say because she is filled with the Holy Ghost and he tells me that he feels that he has no cause or right to complain... you just never know how you witness to someone else. Those women witness to my husband and the Holy SPirit uses that to work in HIM fruit and to make him more like Jesus than I ever think I will be.
God uses you too Betty!
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
AMEN Betty and Linda! Those are Awsome Testimonies - PRAISE GOD!!! Thank you for sharing those things with us!
God Bless you both
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I am saying that NO Christian should have to walk into a room wondering whether fellow Christians are judging them because they are handicapped.
I am sure I am not the only one who is handicapped that has read this thread and wonders how many Christian now look at them and try to guess what sin has made them handicapped.
betty
Betty,
This is how one looks at this problem in the Natural. What I mean, is that this World judges and condemmns us by our actions and our failings or by our weaknesses. You are attributing the attributes of the World to Christians.
While I can't say that some people who are Christians don't do what you fear, I would say they are not walking in God's Love and mercy.
What is am saying is that Christians that know deliverance personally and have seen healings and know God's Love to us will NOT be Judging you.
This is your own projection onto me and others who can see your hurt and offer encouragement.
All I see in you is a hurting person that needs more of God. We all need more of God in our life.
I need more of God, so don't get all insulted.
What do you get insulted anyway? Are you perfect? or do you think you are perfect?
I believe God is dealing with you in this area and He can help you and you can by faith put all your diseases under the Blood and give it to Him.
God bless.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
Unbelievable!!!! White Eagle, you have NO Idea the HARM you are doing! Please Stop it!
Your words imply that Betty does not have enough faith or does not know God... how Arrogant is that? We have been through and through this argument on healing and faith... God does not always choose to heal everyone - for HIS Own Reasons. PLEASE stop tearing down others who are ill when you DON'T know God's reasons in their lives. You are doing GREAT HARM to them!
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
III. Healing in the New Testament: the
Apostles and Christians
A. The Apostles
1. The Apostles were at some times commissioned
to heal
a. Matthew 10:1, 8, Mark 6:13: they were
given authority by Jesus during His
ministry to go out and heal
b. This was part of His ministry and His
purposes, as listed above
2. Let us examine the Apostles' ability to heal
after the death of Jesus
3. Acts 3
a. vv. 1-10: Peter and John heal a man in
the Temple
b. vv. 11-26: Peter uses the occasion to
preach the Gospel
c. Acts 4:4: on account of this, 5000 men
believed!
4. Acts 9:32-35
a. Peter comes upon one Aeneas in Lydda
and heals him
b. Those in Lydda and Sharon (a neighboring
town) saw him and turned to the Lord!
5. Acts 28:7-10
a. Paul is able to heal some on Malta and for
this Paul and his entourage were honored
greatly
6. We see, therefore, that the Apostles' healing
was directly tied to their evangelistic
efforts
7. People saw the healings, as others had seen
other signs and wonders (Acts 2:43), and
believed the Apostles regarding the Christ
8. The Apostles' healing, therefore, was done
to establish and confirm their message about
Jesus Christ as the truth, and to give an
opportunity for evangelism
9. It was not done by all Apostles at every
opportunity, nor does it seem to overall
be of assistance to those in the faith!
a. Philippians 2:25-27: Epaphroditus was ill,
and this grieved the Philippians and Paul,
but God had mercy on him and healed him,
not Paul or anyone else
b. 2 Timothy 4:20: Why would Paul leave
Trophimus sick at Miletus if he could
heal him and thus gain a traveling
companion in his time of need?
10. We can see, therefore, that the Apostles
were able to heal at the direction of the
Spirit, most often to demonstrate authority
for their message and to soften the hearts
of those hearing
11. Their lack of healing of their own
companions, however, demonstrates that their
ability to heal was not universal but was
directed for certain purposes
12. What about other Christians?
B. Christians in the New Testament period
1. We are given some information in regards to
the abilities of Christians in the New
Testament period and healing
2. Mark 16:17
a. One of the signs of those who believe
is the ability to heal
b. these signs, overall, concord to many
of the actions of the Apostles in the
first century, but may not be limited
to them alone
3. 1 Corinthians 12:9
a. the Holy Spirit obviously gave to some
persons at some times the ability to heal
b. note the other dispensations of the Spirit
in this chapter: miracles, spirit
discernment, speaking in tongues,
interpretation, prophecy
4. James 5:14-16
a. James establishes that those who are sick
are to call for the elders who will come,
anoint them with oil, and pray for them
b. no indication here of special dispensation
for healing
c. Are we to do this today?
d. If we desired, we could have the elders
anoint the sick of the congregation with
oil in the name of the Lord
e. The power, however, is manifestly in the
prayer, as vv. 15-18 attest
f. Oil at that time was prized for its
cleansing and was believed to be able to
help cleanse the ill of their infirmity
g. We can, therefore, anoint, but it is not
necessary
5. We see, therefore, that in some places
Christians are said to have healing powers,
but not in others
6. How can we then reconcile these passages?
7. When we examine Mark 16 and 1 Corinthians
12, they speak of signs and other
miraculous events that were used to
confirm the words spoken
8. We see historically and according to 1
Corinthians 13:8-10 that such would cease,
and such did manifestly at the end of the
first century
C. When we examine the healing works of the
Apostles and the couple of passages in reference
to Christians in the first century, we see that
healing was done to confirm and establish the
Word spoken and also to give opportunity to
evangelize
D. Healing also was a dispensation of the Spirit
that correlated with speaking in tongues,
prophecy, and other such things that were used
to establish and confirm the Word of God before
the completion of all revelation
E. No such supernatural events-- speaking
in tongues, prophecy, miracles, signs, wonders,
and healings-- are heard of in regards to
confirming the Word after 175 CE
F. Therefore, we can conclude that the predictions
of Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 have come true,
that the revelation is complete and all signs and
wonders-- including healing-- that were used to
verify and confirm that Word are not present and
not necessary
G. Let us complete our study, therefore, by seeing
the nature of healing today and what some
denominations do as "healing"
IV. Healing Today
A. What kind of healing, then, exists today?
B. Healing from God directly
1. In James 5:14-16, we saw that the prayers of
the righteous can lead to God healing a person
2. It is entirely possible, therefore, for God
to heal someone today supernaturally by His
sovereign will
3. Many times doctors and scientists will be at
a loss to explain how some people become well,
and the reason may be in some circumstances
that God has healed them
4. We shall find, however, no direct, physical,
empirical evidence for this
C. Healing through Medicine
1. It is also possible that God uses doctors,
nurses, and modern medicine to help heal people
2. When we pray for people to be well, it may be
that God accomplishes that end through medical
professionals
D. These are the types of healing that we find today
1. Note all come from the hand of God
2. None are the direct work of any man
V. Denominations and Healing
A. There are some denominations, especially in
the Pentecostal/Charismatic heritage, who believe
in "faith healers" today
1. Some of these same peoples perform snake
handling, as in Mark 16:17
2. Some have died from these activities
3. We see them especially on the television--
the "televangelists" like Benny Hinn and others
4. Are they actually healing people?
B. The difficulty with the claims of such persons is
that few, if any, cases exist with verifiable
supernatural healing
1. There perhaps will be some who will get better
from their illness because they believe that
they are healthy-- the "placebo effect"
2. There are many who never had a problem at all
but only believed that they did
3. And many are deceived into thinking that
they have been healed and they have not
C. It is a travesty that many of these "faith
healers" will say that they heal people, and if
people are not healed, the fault is not theirs but
instead rests with the sick person: "they
obviously did not have enough faith"
1. How dare they!
2. These types of people are most often shams,
and it is despicable that people lose their
faith and reject God because of such persons
having deceived them and then blamed them for
the problem
D. As we have seen, the miraculous works of the first
century have not been replicated since, and the
signs and wonders once performed are no longer
for us
E. Unfortunately many people get caught up in the
emotion and frenzy of these types of assemblies
and believe on that basis alone
F. Let us continue to hold to the standard of the
Word of God
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
White Eagle:
quote:
This is how one looks at this problem in the Natural. What I mean, is that this World judges and condemmns us by our actions and our failings or by our weaknesses. You are attributing the attributes of the World to Christians.
Have you not done just what the world does as stated above when you say this to our sister Betty.
quote:
I believe God is dealing with you in this area and He can help you and you can by faith put all your diseases under the Blood and give it to Him.
Can you please show me scripture to support the possibility of one "putting their disease under the blood" ?
If we are born again children of the living God sealed and indwelled BY HIS Holy Spirit; Our very being is under the blood. We do not live with somethings "under" the blood and some not.
We put our very being under the blood the day we believed! There is not one scripture in the Bible that tells the Bride/ Church of God to put anything under the blood. We are NEW CReatures BORN of GOD NOW who occupy mortal dying bodies because we put our sins under the blood the day we believed!!!!!!!!!!!
You cling to the old man and the old nature and the sin in the flesh with this garbage and you dont even know it! And the devil laughs, you give him more power than he has on his own and he does laugh!
The church/bride is a heavenly creature not a bound earthy one. We suffer all things earthy and yet we are well; because we are not of the earth!!!!!!!!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Unbelievable!!!! White Eagle, you have NO Idea the HARM you are doing! Please Stop it!
Your words imply that Betty does not have enough faith or does not know God... how Arrogant is that? We have been through and through this argument on healing and faith... God does not always choose to heal everyone - for HIS Own Reasons. PLEASE stop tearing down others who are ill when you DON'T know God's reasons in their lives. You are doing GREAT HARM to them!
On the contrary. How arrogant is it to believe that you have ARRIVED. It's pride and arrogance to think that one knows all there is to know about God.
It's arrogant to not able to admit that one's faith could be increased if they would allow God to increase it.
The harm comes from those who feel they have arrived with God.
Why is healing such a divisive issue?
We are to take everything in our life to the crosss and put it under the Blood. It's called Surrender to God.
It's like this:
I'm a nurse. I want to being people to have a better state of health. Often I need to teach them certain things about their medications and certain things about how their body works so they can start being aware of their own signs and symptoms. If they deny they have a problem with their knowledge or their health, I can't help them, in the long run. When my service is over and they are on their own, and they haven't decided to take responsibility for their own health, they will be back in the same pickle.
The same thing with God on a much higher level. If we can't admit or deny that we need Him, He can't help us be overcomers. Overcomers in all things, not just illness. We are all sinners, even when we are covered by the Blood.
We are to submit all things to God. We put it under the Blood. If our mind accepts the illness, then we will certainly keep it.
Where in the Bible does it say that God wants us to be sick? Where in the Bible does it say that God allows us to be sick for His purposes?
Chapter and verse please!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
White Eagle:
quote:
This is how one looks at this problem in the Natural. What I mean, is that this World judges and condemmns us by our actions and our failings or by our weaknesses. You are attributing the attributes of the World to Christians.
Have you not done just what the world does as stated above when you say this to our sister Betty.
quote:
I believe God is dealing with you in this area and He can help you and you can by faith put all your diseases under the Blood and give it to Him.
Can you please show me scripture to support the possibility of one "putting their disease under the blood" ?
If we are born again children of the living God sealed and indwelled BY HIS Holy Spirit; Our very being is under the blood. We do not live with somethings "under" the blood and some not.
We put our very being under the blood the day we believed! There is not one scripture in the Bible that tells the Bride/ Church of God to put anything under the blood. We are NEW CReatures BORN of GOD NOW who occupy mortal dying bodies because we put our sins under the blood the day we believed!!!!!!!!!!!
You cling to the old man and the old nature and the sin in the flesh with this garbage and you dont even know it! And the devil laughs, you give him more power than he has on his own and he does laugh!
The church/bride is a heavenly creature not a bound earthy one. We suffer all things earthy and yet we are well; because we are not of the earth!!!!!!!!
The Devil laughes when you deny the Power of God through the Blood of Jesus Christ.
He laughes as it is the devil that keeps people in bondage to illness and disease. Yes God can redeem it according to our faith. That's the hard truth. It is according to our faith.
Jesus said this to people over and over. Your faith has made you well. Let it be according to your faith. It's in the Gsopels over and over for anyone with eyes to see.
Another hard truth in scripture:
I Corithians 11:27-32 (I'll let ones read it, who dare.)
When we submit to God of which we need to do daily, as Jesus said to take up your cross daily.
Paul said daily sacrifice of our bodies to die to self. We are under the Blood. We take communion we are under the Blood. We take all our cares to God and He sees us under the Blood. We have to surrender things as we walk with God and put them in His control.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
I have never denied the power of God. It is amazing to me that you could claim that God can't heal a man who doesnt have enough faith to be healed and then tell me I deny the power of God!
I am saying to You God can and does do what ever he pleased when He pleases with whom he pleased and if God wanted to heal the bigest athiest on the planet HE could and it require no faith in the man.
What I am saying is that the healing of this mortal dying body in this life is not the guaranteed right of a bliever because they are saved.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I have never denied the power of God. It is amazing to me that you could claim that God can't heal a man who doesnt have enough faith to be healed and then tell me I deny the power of God!
I am saying to You God can and does do what ever he pleased when He pleases with whom he pleased and if God wanted to heal the bigest athiest on the planet HE could and it require no faith in the man.
What I am saying is that the healing of this mortal dying body in this life is not the guaranteed right of a bliever because they are saved.
Then it's just as amazing that God can't save a man's soul unless that person comes to Christ.
According to your statement above God could save a sinner without the sinner having any faith.
God set His own parameters on those issues and while God CAN do anything He wishes, He has demonstrated to us by the scriptures that it requires Faith.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
I'm still waiting patiently for someone to supply the scripture or scriptures that say that God wants for us to be ill. And that God allows us to be ill for His purposes.
Waiting......
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
What should be the thermometer that determines the state of my spiritual state with God? Should it be whether I am in pain or not? Is God’s power diminished because of my health? Does God look at me as a handicapped person, or does He judge me by my soul?
If people were to judge themselves by their own physical health, you would find your spiritual health bouncing up and down like a rubber ball. Even Christians who are not handicapped get illnesses. One day you see you’re Pastor and he feels great, the next day he has the flu. Did his spiritual health fall apart during the night?
White Eagle you make the comment that you as a nurse try to help sick people who come to you. I have taken my doctor’s advice and lost weight and increased my exercise. I have not crawled into bed and stayed. I do what I can to keep myself strong, but I do not see my handicap as a an excuse to stop serving God nor do I see it as a punishment from God. I have pointed out to you in my Church family in Texas how the preacher’s daughter who serves the Lord inherited MD while her sister who does not serve the Lord did not. Do you think that God does not know which daughter servers Him?
White Eagle, how about you showing me in the Bible where a Christian is told to judge another Christian by their physical health. You know the devil seeks to use you to destroy me, but God in His mercy gives me the strength to ignore you and your arrogance.
Yes, you have caused me pain and yes, I have shed tears over your mean and hateful comments to me and about me. But today, I feel neither anger or hurt because of you. I feel only pity. Why? One day you may become ill and when you do, your faith will suffer because you place all of your faith not in God but having perfect health. For this I feel pity for you.
betty
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
Then it's just as amazing that God can't save a man's soul unless that person comes to Christ.
Hello. No man can come to Christ lest the father draws them to Christ and ALL the father gives Christ come!
We dont chose Christ; We are chosen for Christ by the Father who must give the first grace to your sinful soul that you can repent and believe in the first place.
quote:
According to your statement above God could save a sinner without the sinner having any faith.
NOT So! According to my stement above the faith to save the sinner is given by GOD in the first place.
quote:
God set His own parameters on those issues and while God CAN do anything He wishes, He has demonstrated to us by the scriptures that it requires Faith.
No He has not demonstrated to us that healing requires faith. He has demonstrated to us that the Father sent him to call the lost sheep of Israel and to bring deliverance to the Children and that those children would be known because they would believe that JESus was the son of the Living God and that belief would be demonstrated by their faith in his ability to heal them.
If it was your God given right as part of your re-birth to have this mortal body healed in this life there would be no sickness in the church.
Paul would have never been sick.
No one has said that God wills us to be sick. What I have said is that GOD does will this body to die some day and all manner of aging and corruption that this body sees is a form of sickness a form of the affects of sin.
YOu are free FROM sin. You are not free OF sin. It still lives in the world and in your flesh and as long as it does your body is gonna get sick from time to time. These bodies were not meant to be imortal.
There is no place in the scriptures to the church that say you are guaranteed to be healed of all sickness if you just believe that you are.
There are many places in the scriptures to the church that say these bodies will suffer in this life. These bodies are subject to the same suffering that the body of the unbeliever are subject to.
1 Peter 5:8 ¶ Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
10 ¶ But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
2 Tim. 4:
19: Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
20: Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
21: Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
22: The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
Phil. 2:
25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. 26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. 27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. 29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation: 30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Imagine that. Did you see that Drew?
He was healed not because of his great faith, but because God had mercy on him!!!! What a concept.
Was God being a respector of persons all the other times he healed healing because of their great fatih? Or is healing always because God has mercy on the one who is healed?
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
What think ye?
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
I don't know Sis. Did Paul lack faith not to have healed but rather, Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick?
I don't think so!!!
These proponents of "if you have faith you can be healed", or just "put your sickness under the blood", have bought into the WOF pablum, lock stock and barrel.
One wonders if they have a faith which endures hardship and adversity, or if they expect a rose laden walk with Christ without the thorns?
When they themselves are striken, will their compadres declare unto them,"just put it under the blood", or "if you were strong in the faith you could latch-onto your healing"?
2 Cor. 12:
8: For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9: And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10: Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Will they like Joni Erickson Tada, minister to the hearts and lives of those around, from her wheel chair?
Fanny Crosby wrote some beautiful lyrics after hearing a tune on the old piano:
Blessčd assurance, Jesus is mine!
O what a foretaste of glory divine!
Heir of salvation, purchase of God,
Born of His Spirit, washed in His blood.
Refrain
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior, all the day long;
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Savior, all the day long.
Perfect submission, perfect delight,
Visions of rapture now burst on my sight;
Angels descending bring from above
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love.
Refrain
Perfect submission, all is at rest
I in my Savior am happy and blest,
Watching and waiting, looking above,
Filled with His goodness, lost in His love.
Refrain
Though physically blind, her vision and true faith in Christ was awe-inspiring, and speak volumes to the hearts and lives of those who walk through adversity.
In Christ the proponents of the WOF pablum are far more blind then Fanny Crosby's physical handicap.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
Betty
May God forgive you. I have never judged you except to comment that your posts are full of "guilt trips". I don't judge your soul.
You are adding things to my posts I do not say.
I am proclaiming Christ to you. I am proclaiming my experience and hope in Christ.
Jesus said that "OFFENCES WOULD COME"
The Blood of Christ is sufficient to overcome all things. He died for us to have eternal life and have everlasting communion with the Father and a new body.
He also died that we might be overcomers. He has healed us of all our diseases. Psalms 103:2-5
"Bless the Lord O my soul, and forget not all His benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities: who healeth all thy DISEASES: Who redeems thy life from destruction: who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies: Who satisfies thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's."
Jeremiah 15:18
"Why is my pain perpetual, and my wound incurable, which refused to be healed? Wilt thou be altogether unto me as a liar, and as waters that fail?"
Betty you are NOT your illness, that is Not your identity. May The Lord bless and keep you in His mercy and power and Love.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
2 Tim. 4:
19: Salute Prisca and Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.
20: Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
21: Do thy diligence to come before winter. Eubulus greeteth thee, and Pudens, and Linus, and Claudia, and all the brethren.
22: The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
Phil. 2:
25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. 26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. 27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow. 28 I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. 29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation: 30 Because for the work of Christ he was nigh unto death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
Linda and Drew
Both of you are assuming things with these verses and these verses do NOT say God wishes us to be ill or that God healed this man without Faith.
Epaphroditus, is a servant of Christ, He has faith. Paul says he was nigh unto death for the work of Christ. He had faith. I think it is very safe to assume that. God healed him.
Nice try ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
James 5:14-15
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, annointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick; and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."
Again we see the parallal of sins and sickness together for healing.
I rest my case. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Let God be true and all men liars!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
White Eagle, how about you showing me in the Bible where a Christian is told to judge another Christian by their physical health. You know the devil seeks to use you to destroy me, but God in His mercy gives me the strength to ignore you and your arrogance.
Yes, you have caused me pain and yes, I have shed tears over your mean and hateful comments to me and about me. But today, I feel neither anger or hurt because of you. I feel only pity. Why? One day you may become ill and when you do, your faith will suffer because you place all of your faith not in God but having perfect health. For this I feel pity for you.
betty
1Corinthains 11:27-31
"Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eatheth and drinketh damnation (judgement) to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. FOR THIS CAUSE MANY ARE WEAK AND SICKLY AMONG YOU, AND MANY SLEEP. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."
You asked for this Bible verse.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I'm still waiting patiently for someone to supply the scripture or scriptures that say that God wants for us to be ill. And that God allows us to be ill for His purposes.
Waiting......
Please show us in this thread where Anyone said that God Wants for us to be ill.
You've been shown (several times in fact) that God allows illness for His Purpose - remember the Blind from birth man that Jesus healed? You've been shown Many Scriptures on illness and how God did not always heal yet you refuse to see.
I rest my case and I'm knocking the dust off my feet ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
White Eagle
“May God forgive you. I have never judged you except to comment that your posts are full of "guilt trips". I don't judge your soul.”
This is so untrue. I have told you over and over I could care less about you having a guilt trip. You and others have come here and judge those who are handicapped or ill and then you are surprised when we who fit this bill speak up. I don’t speak up just for me; there are others here who know what it is like to have gone 5 years or more with out one day free of pain. Who, when waking have to lie there in bed trying to get their stiff bodies parts to move so they are able to get up out of bed, after a night of waking up through out the night in pain. Pity is not what we want. My neighbor in Houston told me that she felt so sorry for me and I asked her what on earth for. She said when she saw me stumbling around the yard with my cane. I honestly was shocked. I can’t say I never have a pity party. When I fell and hurt myself the first part of last week, I was embarrassed even though I was the only person in the room and I admit the next couple of days I felt sorry for myself when the pain was really bad. I am human. But, I don’t want or expect for people to feel sorry for me because I walk with a cane.
The truth is, White Eagle, I feel sorry for you. You are not capable of compassion. Also, you cannot rationalize why some people are required to suffer and others not, so you have decided that the person suffering must some how be at fault.
I am still waiting for your answer as to why the Pastor’s daughter who serves God got MD and the daughter who does not, did not get MD. The truth is no one knows why God allowed one to inherit the disease and one not to. But, for another Christian to look at the girls and start placing blame on the girl who loves the Lord, is
despicable.
In the last two weeks, I have dealt with you and with BA’s comment that God has to give illness to Christians to get them off the couch, and to be honest I am tired of messing with you both. Only my desire to reach out to others who suffer has kept me coming back and repeatedly saying that physical health is not the way to determine the state of a Christian’s soul. Only God knows why He heals some times and some times he doesn’t. Back years before I started going to the Baptist Church, our Pastor at the time, son had epilepsy. One Sunday he had seizure in Church. The Church members volunteered to fast for a week, each taking a portion of the week. The Pastor himself, went on a 40 day fast. God for what ever reason chose not to heal his son. To this day the boy who is also a Preacher cannot drive. If his father had, had you attitude the whole Church would have closed its doors and we would have all given up on Christianity. But, because the Preacher was a great man of God, he helped the Church realize that God’s will was not our own will. This man is still preaching and God does great work through him. I know that God has healed me in the past. When my mom was caring me, the doctor told my mom and dad that I was dead and they needed to do an abortion to remove the dead baby from her body.
My mom told the doctor no, because God told her her baby was okay. He told my mom to go to h--- and stormed out of the room. But I was born a healthy baby. A year later I almost died and had to have a blood transfusion. But here I am still here.
God has a purpose for my life and if like Paul, I must endure a thorn in my side, I will. But, what I won’t do is sit back and be quiet when Christians in their ignorance attack other Christians for having a disability or and illness.
“May God forgive you.” No, White Eagle, may God forgive you for not only judging Christians over things they have no control over but for having no compassion on those who suffer. Instead of spending your time and effort cutting down those who suffer, I suggest you pray that God will help you feel compassion on those who suffer.
Linda here is a perfect example of one who suffers on a daily bases, yet she not only endures her discomfort but she is a shinning example of a modern day Paul. She ignores her own pain and reaches out to others. She is a great teacher and she spends so much time reaching out to teach people of God’s love. I know I, myself, pale in the shining light of her ministry and love for God.
betty
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Amen Sister Betty!!!!!!!
You and Linda are such inspirations and true examples of real faith unshaken through adversity. Praise God for your testimony and witness.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all those who spout that WOF pablum have been blinded by false teaching, and they are so poisoned by this heresy that they may not realize the denigration and damage they do with their cavalier commentary to those who face trials and adversity every hour of every day.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all proponents of the WOF heresy need to repent, turn to the true Word of God, and God of the Word. They have been far too blinded by the false prophets of wealth and prosperity, the apostles of glitz and glamor.
God bless you Betty and Linda, and all whose steadfast faith is unshaken through adversity, and may God drop the scales from blinded eyes and open the shackled hearts of those who denigrate the faith of those who walk with trials.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
:
well said Caretaker, very well said!
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
I agree! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
2Cr 4:15 For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;
2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
Our light affliction
1. (16) Another reason to not lose heart: God is doing an eternal work that will last forever
a. Outward man has the same idea as earthen vessels and mortal flesh
2. (17-18) A coming glory that outweighs any of today's difficulties
a. When Paul says our light affliction, we might wonder if he had ever known some real trials - of course, he had!
i. Paul doesn't speak as a novice, but as a graduate of the school of affliction
b. We should thank God in affliction because . . .
i. Our affliction is light compared to what others are suffering
ii. Our affliction is light compared to what we deserve
iii. Our affliction is light compared to what Jesus suffered for us
iv. Our affliction is light compared to the blessings we enjoy
v. Our affliction is light as we experience the sustaining power of God's grace
vi. Our affliction is light when we see the glory that it is leading to
c. In the world's eyes, Paul's life was an incredible failure - at the height of a career that would reach much higher, he left it all for a life of hardship, suffering and persecution, with eventual martyrdom - but Paul recognizes that the world only sees the outward, not the unseen eternal things
d. "Affliction is not something to be endured in order to reach glory. It is the very process which creates the glory. Through travail comes birth." (Morgan)
i. Paul isn't saying that all suffering is productive of glory, "as though it were and infallible means to this end."
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Amen Sister Betty!!!!!!!
You and Linda are such inspirations and true examples of real faith unshaken through adversity. Praise God for your testimony and witness.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all those who spout that WOF pablum have been blinded by false teaching, and they are so poisoned by this heresy that they may not realize the denigration and damage they do with their cavalier commentary to those who face trials and adversity every hour of every day.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all proponents of the WOF heresy need to repent, turn to the true Word of God, and God of the Word. They have been far too blinded by the false prophets of wealth and prosperity, the apostles of glitz and glamor.
God bless you Betty and Linda, and all whose steadfast faith is unshaken through adversity, and may God drop the scales from blinded eyes and open the shackled hearts of those who denigrate the faith of those who walk with trials.
~
Bible, King James Version
Malachi.3
[16] Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
~
Wait ~ you mean that don't say, and thought upon his "HEALING and other GIFTS or STUFF".
Hum... I think we need some of them PC bible interpreters to change or add these things -- to fix it up towards this feeling.
Yes, that would be best for the flesh -- 'Happy Happy Joy Joy' for the soul. It's real easy -- let (we) make God in our image.
Let's not only stop at that. Let's call our Father our Mother, our Brother our sister and the power of the Spirit that would correct... evil.
Attributes are not subjectual. They are just manifestations of the total three in one.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Amen Sister Betty!!!!!!!
You and Linda are such inspirations and true examples of real faith unshaken through adversity. Praise God for your testimony and witness.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all those who spout that WOF pablum have been blinded by false teaching, and they are so poisoned by this heresy that they may not realize the denigration and damage they do with their cavalier commentary to those who face trials and adversity every hour of every day.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all proponents of the WOF heresy need to repent, turn to the true Word of God, and God of the Word. They have been far too blinded by the false prophets of wealth and prosperity, the apostles of glitz and glamor.
God bless you Betty and Linda, and all whose steadfast faith is unshaken through adversity, and may God drop the scales from blinded eyes and open the shackled hearts of those who denigrate the faith of those who walk with trials.
If you deny the truth of the scriptures I posted, then it is YOU who deny the Word of God.
People who think their Faith is Just Fine as it is, are the ones who are shackled.
Where does it say that illness is a trial?
There you go again interpreting scripture to suit your ideas, NOT God's ideas.
Read God's word with open eyes. Read the Gospels about the healings and in Acts. Read James about laying on of hands and the prayer of faith to heal the sick.
You philosophy is vain and appeases the flesh, as you take comfort in the hollow phrases that God is giving someone a trial by allowing them to be sick.
God's word states that many have taken Communion unworthily and therefore many were weak and sick.
Yet you deny that hard truth of God's Word.
Yet, it is you who are appealing to the flesh, so that you make God's Word of none effect.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
The teaching which you adhere to, WhiteEagle, and which proliferates throughout the WOF heresy is anathema, denigrates the faith of those whose faith is tested in the fires of adversity, and is contrary to the Word of God.
You need to repent!!!!!!
You need to turn your heart to the truth of God's Word, and come out of this heretical abomination.
The teaching you espouse is deception, and a destroyer.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
White Eagle
I am still waiting for your answer as to why the Pastor’s daughter who serves God got MD and the daughter who does not, did not get MD. The truth is no one knows why God allowed one to inherit the disease and one not to. But, for another Christian to look at the girls and start placing blame on the girl who loves the Lord, is
despicable.
Betty , you are looking upon that situation with your earthly eyes. You see that the pastor's daughter was good and worthy in YOUR sight. YOU see the other daughter as unworthy in YOUR sight.
Our works is not what makes us worthy or unworthy. It's the Blood of Jesus Christ. I know many people who SAY that they Love the Lord, yet their heart is all wrong. I know many people who seem to do all the Right Things, yet their heart is not right with the Lord. Since I don't see their hearts as God does, I can't answer why. I know you will come up with some earthly explanation, of hollow comfort.
I have no quarrel with Betty, I do have a quarrel with the Spirit of Infirmity and Spirit of Doubt. The Battle belongs to the Lord, and I'll let His Blood cover it, as it's not by power or by Might, but by My Spirit says the Lord.
Betty, why do you think that the Assemblies Pastor on the OCD Board split so quickly?
He was a wolf in sheep's clothing, and a false teacher. He was soothing your flesh. He was epxosed by the Spirit of God and he had to leave this forum.
quote:
from Betty: In the last two weeks, I have dealt with you and with BA’s comment that God has to give illness to Christians to get them off the couch, and to be honest I am tired of messing with you both. Only my desire to reach out to others who suffer has kept me coming back and repeatedly saying that physical health is not the way to determine the state of a Christian’s soul. Only God knows why He heals some times and some times he doesn’t. Back years before I started going to the Baptist Church, our Pastor at the time, son had epilepsy. One Sunday he had seizure in Church. The Church members volunteered to fast for a week, each taking a portion of the week. The Pastor himself, went on a 40 day fast. God for what ever reason chose not to heal his son. To this day the boy who is also a Preacher cannot drive. If his father had, had you attitude the whole Church would have closed its doors and we would have all given up on Christianity. But, because the Preacher was a great man of God, he helped the Church realize that God’s will was not our own will. This man is still preaching and God does great work through him. I know that God has healed me in the past. When my mom was caring me, the doctor told my mom and dad that I was dead and they needed to do an abortion to remove the dead baby from her body.
My mom told the doctor no, because God told her her baby was okay. He told my mom to go to h--- and stormed out of the room. But I was born a healthy baby. A year later I almost died and had to have a blood transfusion. But here I am still here.
God has a purpose for my life and if like Paul, I must endure a thorn in my side, I will. But, what I won’t do is sit back and be quiet when Christians in their ignorance attack other Christians for having a disability or and illness.
You have an awesome testimony there. I know of a missionary who recently died of Jacob Crutchfield disease after his mission trips. Prayer was made for him, he was a youngish man with a family. He went without a Church covering on his mission trips, and the Enemy was able to bring him down. He was an awesome Christian, and led many to Christ on his mission trips, yet he needed the Body to support his work in prayer covering.
Betty I don't know why the pastor's son didn't get healed after all the prayers. I would guess that something deeper was at work, and none of us know all there is to know, that's why we need the Lord. I just know what the Bible states about healing and faith. I will stick to the Bible.
Sometimes we just have to Rest in the Blood of the Lamb, as our works no matter how noble, or our explanations no matter who logical don't cut it.
I'm NOT attacking YOU, that's the irony here. If you are happy and secure with your faith, then you wouldn't be offended.
Every time you lash out at me, you lash out at what the Bible states about healing.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The teaching which you adhere to, WhiteEagle, and which proliferates throughout the WOF heresy is anathema, denigrates the faith of those whose faith is tested in the fires of adversity, and is contrary to the Word of God.
You need to repent!!!!!!
You need to turn your heart to the truth of God's Word, and come out of this heretical abomination.
The teaching you espouse is deception, and a destroyer.
May the Lord rebuke you.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Amen Sister Betty!!!!!!!
You and Linda are such inspirations and true examples of real faith unshaken through adversity. Praise God for your testimony and witness.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all those who spout that WOF pablum have been blinded by false teaching, and they are so poisoned by this heresy that they may not realize the denigration and damage they do with their cavalier commentary to those who face trials and adversity every hour of every day.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all proponents of the WOF heresy need to repent, turn to the true Word of God, and God of the Word. They have been far too blinded by the false prophets of wealth and prosperity, the apostles of glitz and glamor.
God bless you Betty and Linda, and all whose steadfast faith is unshaken through adversity, and may God drop the scales from blinded eyes and open the shackled hearts of those who denigrate the faith of those who walk with trials.
If you deny the truth of the scriptures I posted, then it is YOU who deny the Word of God.
People who think their Faith is Just Fine as it is, are the ones who are shackled.
Where does it say that illness is a trial?
There you go again interpreting scripture to suit your ideas, NOT God's ideas.
Read God's word with open eyes. Read the Gospels about the healings and in Acts. Read James about laying on of hands and the prayer of faith to heal the sick.
You philosophy is vain and appeases the flesh, as you take comfort in the hollow phrases that God is giving someone a trial by allowing them to be sick.
God's word states that many have taken Communion unworthily and therefore many were weak and sick.
Yet you deny that hard truth of God's Word.
Yet, it is you who are appealing to the flesh, so that you make God's Word of none effect.
You best not take the Communion any time soon then.
1Tim.2
[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
[15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1Cor.14
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Please show us in this thread where Anyone said that God Wants for us to be ill.
You've been shown (several times in fact) that God allows illness for His Purpose - remember the Blind from birth man that Jesus healed? You've been shown Many Scriptures on illness and how God did not always heal yet you refuse to see.
I rest my case and I'm knocking the dust off my feet
Well let's see Linda and you say that God allows us to be sick for His purposes.
Where's the scripture for that?
The man blind from birth was HEALED. He wasn't left blind.
It's Satan that wants us to be sick and afflicted.
God does work all things for Good to those who love Him.
God allows trials but a trial isn't sickness.
We have verses in the New Testament that deal with physical sickness.
I don't see that you've made any case at all.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Amen Sister Betty!!!!!!!
You and Linda are such inspirations and true examples of real faith unshaken through adversity. Praise God for your testimony and witness.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all those who spout that WOF pablum have been blinded by false teaching, and they are so poisoned by this heresy that they may not realize the denigration and damage they do with their cavalier commentary to those who face trials and adversity every hour of every day.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all proponents of the WOF heresy need to repent, turn to the true Word of God, and God of the Word. They have been far too blinded by the false prophets of wealth and prosperity, the apostles of glitz and glamor.
God bless you Betty and Linda, and all whose steadfast faith is unshaken through adversity, and may God drop the scales from blinded eyes and open the shackled hearts of those who denigrate the faith of those who walk with trials.
If you deny the truth of the scriptures I posted, then it is YOU who deny the Word of God.
People who think their Faith is Just Fine as it is, are the ones who are shackled.
Where does it say that illness is a trial?
There you go again interpreting scripture to suit your ideas, NOT God's ideas.
Read God's word with open eyes. Read the Gospels about the healings and in Acts. Read James about laying on of hands and the prayer of faith to heal the sick.
You philosophy is vain and appeases the flesh, as you take comfort in the hollow phrases that God is giving someone a trial by allowing them to be sick.
God's word states that many have taken Communion unworthily and therefore many were weak and sick.
Yet you deny that hard truth of God's Word.
Yet, it is you who are appealing to the flesh, so that you make God's Word of none effect.
You best not take the Communion any time soon then.
1Tim.2
[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
[15] Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1Cor.14
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Whoa! Another one bites the dust! A man is offended that a woman wields the Sword. ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
Am I not on the Christian Board?
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
This is God's will for our mortal bodies!!!!!!!
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Is Your mortal body IN the world?
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Is your mortal body of the world?
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
What you teach is the Pride of life!
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, [U]is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/U]
This is the will of God regarding the mortal body....
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
************************************************
6 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
I just have one question;
Luke 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Why do you insist on raising the dead
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
WhiteEagle:
I know of a missionary who recently died of Jacob Crutchfield disease after his mission trips. Prayer was made for him, he was a youngish man with a family. He went without a Church covering on his mission trips, and the Enemy was able to bring him down. He was an awesome Christian, and led many to Christ on his mission trips, yet he needed the Body to support his work in prayer covering.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The statement faults his actions, places the blame on him for his having the disease. Just as you place the blame on lack of faith, or not having put the disease under the blood.
The false teaching assumes that it must be a spiritual lack on the part of the individual if they get sick.
May the Lord reveal to you your blatant denigration of the faith of others and the error of your teaching.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
"Whoa! Another one bites the dust! A man is offended that a woman wields the Sword."
Where did I give you a "MANs" oppinion?
2Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
I showed you the Sword and all you seen was the reflection of your own sillyness in its blade.
Please read about Deborah.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
WhiteEagle:
I know of a missionary who recently died of Jacob Crutchfield disease after his mission trips. Prayer was made for him, he was a youngish man with a family. He went without a Church covering on his mission trips, and the Enemy was able to bring him down. He was an awesome Christian, and led many to Christ on his mission trips, yet he needed the Body to support his work in prayer covering.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The statement faults his actions, places the blame on him for his having the disease. Just as you place the blame on lack of faith, or not having put the disease under the blood.
The false teaching assumes that it must be a spiritual lack on the part of the individual if they get sick.
May the Lord reveal to you your blatant denigration of the faith of others and the error of your teaching.
Many die for lack of knowledge of the Word.
Now let's reason together.
My saying one can have more Faith through Christ than they have now, is NOT denigration of their faith.
The man with the demon possessed child asked Jesus to help his unbelief. Jesus did and healed the child.
Many live with their sickness and God does redeem the time. God is merciful to us in our ignorance of His Word. Praise God for that.
God does use trial, temptations, and yes I would say sickness to test our faith. But we are to be overcomers in the Spirit and God can fulfill his promises to us.
It's not heresy to believe what the Bibles says.
It's getting rather heated on this forum.
I would like to point out that, I think it was ThunderZ who posted about balance.
You feel I'm too far out there on healing.
I feel you are denying that healing is promised by God.
It's the fault of our fallen nature that we get sickness and disease. It's the ploy of the Enemy to keep us down and sick. Yes God can redeem the time, and redeem our faults and make all things work together for good.
But it's NOT God's desire to test us with sickness, it's the Enemy's desire.
Yes it is our fault. We are all of the Adamic nature. That's why we need a Savior.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"Whoa! Another one bites the dust! A man is offended that a woman wields the Sword."
Where did I give you a "MANs" oppinion?
2Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
I showed you the Sword and all you seen was the reflection of your own sillyness in its blade.
Please read about Deborah.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
The "sword" you showed was your own prejudice toward women.
You quoted the verses about women keeping silent in the church when this in NOT what this discussion is about.
You can't pretend to back track now and bring up Deborah.
If all you can argue with is words like "silliness" and using scripture out of context to this discussion.....it's pretty weak.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"Whoa! Another one bites the dust! A man is offended that a woman wields the Sword."
Where did I give you a "MANs" oppinion?
2Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
I showed you the Sword and all you seen was the reflection of your own sillyness in its blade.
Please read about Deborah.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
The "sword" you showed was your own prejudice toward women.
You quoted the verses about women keeping silent in the church when this in NOT what this discussion is about.
You can't pretend to back track now and bring up Deborah.
If all you can argue with is words like "silliness" and using scripture out of context to this discussion.....it's pretty weak.
So lets tell the baseball fans how its ok for you to do the very same thing you accuse me of with your "total phyisical healing doctrine".
Please stop your sillyness. It is clear to all you only read the bible with "special" glass wear.
Now go and do the right thing.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
This is God's will for our mortal bodies!!!!!!!
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Is Your mortal body IN the world?
1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Is your mortal body of the world?
1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
What you teach is the Pride of life!
1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, [U]is not of the Father, but is of the world.[/U]
This is the will of God regarding the mortal body....
Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,
2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
************************************************
6 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
I just have one question;
Luke 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Why do you insist on raising the dead
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Linda,
Many have the Pride of Life when they are sick.
They are proud that they are afflicted. They tell themselves that God is teaching them something and that they are special. It works both ways.
I almost have to chuckle about your question.
"Why do I want to raise the dead?"?????
Are you speaking to Christ? Why did Christ raise Lazarus and others?
He knew those concepts of our dead bodies. He taught the Apostle Paul.
Why are you so down on healing?
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
Wildb:
![[zzzzzz]](graemlins/20.gif)
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
You feel I'm too far out there on healing.
I feel you are denying that healing is promised by God.
This wasn't written to me, but I feel that it coul dhave been.
Not too far out there - Totally missed the target. I feel you are denying the soverignity of God and the omnipotence of God and that you are teaching that a saint should expect to resurrect that which was crucified with Christ.
You claim that you know that it is because of the old nature that sickness is, but the old nature is supposed to be on the cross with Christ freeing you that your re-born man will be free when the body is destroyed. You want to make whole what God wants to destroy! What does that say about the spirit behind this teaching?
The only thing biting the dust in this thread is your case which does not stand the test of the scriptures whole. And the sword you think that your wielding is not a sword at all it is the folly of men and one day even you will see how foolish it is.
Healing of the Body of sin and death is not our God given right by re-birth. Nailing the live that was once lived in the Body of sin and death to Christ's cross that the body of sin and death might be destroyed is the grace given to you that through the re-birth THE LIFE OF CHRIST might be manifest in your mortal body as you walk on the earth and I assure you that HIS life is in NO need of healing!
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
White Eagle it is obvious to me that you have not understanding in your spirit to know that what belongs to the church was not given until pentecost and not one of the stories of the mircles that were performed in National Israel can compare to what belongs to the church and to seek what they got at the expense of denying what you should have if you be born again is a tragedy of the greatest kind.
And that said... it is now, I who do also shake the dust from my feet.
May God open the eyes of the blind!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
You feel I'm too far out there on healing.
I feel you are denying that healing is promised by God.
This wasn't written to me, but I feel that it coul dhave been.
Not too far out there - Totally missed the target. I feel you are denying the soverignity of God and the omnipotence of God and that you are teaching that a saint should expect to resurrect that which was crucified with Christ.
You claim that you know that it is because of the old nature that sickness is, but the old nature is supposed to be on the cross with Christ freeing you that your re-born man will be free when the body is destroyed. You want to make whole what God wants to destroy! What does that say about the spirit behind this teaching?
The only thing biting the dust in this thread is your case which does not stand the test of the scriptures whole. And the sword you think that your wielding is not a sword at all it is the folly of men and one day even you will see how foolish it is.
Healing of the Body of sin and death is not our God given right by re-birth. Nailing the live that was once lived in the Body of sin and death to Christ's cross that the body of sin and death might be destroyed is the grace given to you that through the re-birth THE LIFE OF CHRIST might be manifest in your mortal body as you walk on the earth and I assure you that HIS life is in NO need of healing!
I'll stand on the Promises of Christ my King!
How do you think all of that is manifest.
I want to raise the dead, because the Bible says that the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL RISE FIRST.
![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Wildb:
2Pet.2
[1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
White Eagle it is obvious to me that you have not understanding in your spirit to know that what belongs to the church was not given until pentecost and not one of the stories of the mircles that were performed in National Israel can compare to what belongs to the church and to seek what they got at the expense of denying what you should have if you be born again is a tragedy of the greatest kind.
And that said... it is now, I who do also shake the dust from my feet.
May God open the eyes of the blind!
Dear Linda,
Amen! May the blind see and the lame walk.
May God arise and His enemies be scattered.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
White Eagle it is obvious to me that you have not understanding in your spirit to know that what belongs to the church was not given until pentecost and not one of the stories of the mircles that were performed in National Israel can compare to what belongs to the church and to seek what they got at the expense of denying what you should have if you be born again is a tragedy of the greatest kind.
And that said... it is now, I who do also shake the dust from my feet.
May God open the eyes of the blind!
Dear Linda,
Amen! May the blind see and the lame walk.
May God arise and His enemies be scattered.
2Thes.2
[5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
[6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Wildb:
2Pet.2
[1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
There is now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
Malachi 4:2-3 KJV
"But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this saith the Lord of Hosts."
Let all men be liars and God true.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
White Eagle,
I have no idea what denomination Pastor Jim is. My point was that the Pastor in Houston kept his faith even though God said no to healing his son and not only that but the Pastor helped the Church keep their faith in God. As far was what denomination Pastor Jim is, I have no clue, but I can tell you that he was a wonderful blessing to me and I thank God for bringing him to this board. As far as why he left, I think of this verse:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Pastor Jim had the courage to speak up about an illness that affects thousands of Americans, yet most Preachers do not talk about it. Many in Churches today suffer from this but they are too ashamed to come forward for help. Because of Pastor Jim, I was able to get an answer to many prayers I have prayed to God about for over 20 years.
I feel pity for you White Eagle. For now you sit well in your ivory tower, but things change. Accidents happen and people do get diseases. I feel you are ill equipped when this things, touch you or your family. You look at handicapped people as people who lack faith. I on the other hand know what it like to sit in Sunday School with tears in my eyes from the pain in my hands being so bad that I could barely turn the pages in my Bible this morning. What gives God more glory, me going to Church when I could have easily stayed in bed, or you looking down on anyone who is not in perfect health?
If I had your outlook I would have stayed home and not gone back to Church until I was healed. But, our Pastor told us it is not our jobs as Christians to manipulate God into doing what we want, but our job is to accept God’s will for our lives.
betty
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Drew,
God bless you for your words of encouragment. I said to myself I would not let White Eagle make me cry again, but she did. Your words though and wild B and others made me smile.
I do indeed feel sorry for white eagle, but that does not stop her from wounding me.
May God have mercy on us all.
betty
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Wildb:
2Pet.2
[1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
There is now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
Malachi 4:2-3 KJV
"But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and ye shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall.
And ye shall tread down the wicked, and they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this saith the Lord of Hosts."
Let all men be liars and God true.
But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall [Mal. 4:2].
The Sun of Righteousness in the Old Testament is the same person who is the Bright and Morning Star in the New Testament. However, Christ is never called the Sun of Righteousness in the New Testament, and He's never called the Bright and Morning Star in the Old Testament.
(Do you know the reason?)
...
And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts [Mal. 4:3].
When He comes to this earth to establish His kingdom, the wicked will be put down. He will break them into pieces like a potter's vessel. That is the language of Scripture and it is just too bad if you don't like it.
-- Thru the Bible With J. Vernon McGee, Vol. 3
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Amen Sister Betty!!!!!!!
You and Linda are such inspirations and true examples of real faith unshaken through adversity. Praise God for your testimony and witness.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all those who spout that WOF pablum have been blinded by false teaching, and they are so poisoned by this heresy that they may not realize the denigration and damage they do with their cavalier commentary to those who face trials and adversity every hour of every day.
WhiteEagle, HisGrace, and all proponents of the WOF heresy need to repent, turn to the true Word of God, and God of the Word. They have been far too blinded by the false prophets of wealth and prosperity, the apostles of glitz and glamor.
God bless you Betty and Linda, and all whose steadfast faith is unshaken through adversity, and may God drop the scales from blinded eyes and open the shackled hearts of those who denigrate the faith of those who walk with trials.
AMEN and AMEN!
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Watcher:
2Cr 4:15 For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;
2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
Our light affliction
1. (16) Another reason to not lose heart: God is doing an eternal work that will last forever
a. Outward man has the same idea as earthen vessels and mortal flesh
2. (17-18) A coming glory that outweighs any of today's difficulties
a. When Paul says our light affliction, we might wonder if he had ever known some real trials - of course, he had!
i. Paul doesn't speak as a novice, but as a graduate of the school of affliction
b. We should thank God in affliction because . . .
i. Our affliction is light compared to what others are suffering
ii. Our affliction is light compared to what we deserve
iii. Our affliction is light compared to what Jesus suffered for us
iv. Our affliction is light compared to the blessings we enjoy
v. Our affliction is light as we experience the sustaining power of God's grace
vi. Our affliction is light when we see the glory that it is leading to
c. In the world's eyes, Paul's life was an incredible failure - at the height of a career that would reach much higher, he left it all for a life of hardship, suffering and persecution, with eventual martyrdom - but Paul recognizes that the world only sees the outward, not the unseen eternal things
d. "Affliction is not something to be endured in order to reach glory. It is the very process which creates the glory. Through travail comes birth." (Morgan)
i. Paul isn't saying that all suffering is productive of glory, "as though it were and infallible means to this end."
Amen Watcher! Great Post!
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The teaching which you adhere to, WhiteEagle, and which proliferates throughout the WOF heresy is anathema, denigrates the faith of those whose faith is tested in the fires of adversity, and is contrary to the Word of God.
You need to repent!!!!!!
You need to turn your heart to the truth of God's Word, and come out of this heretical abomination.
The teaching you espouse is deception, and a destroyer.
Let me add an AMEN! to this as well! Boy are there a lot of Good Posts here tonight!
My family and Youth Ministry in our church were Tested by Fire this weekend and To God Be The Glory!!! HIS Grace Was Sufficient! (Because we never would have Overcome without it!) PRAISE GOD!!!
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
White Eagle,
Pastor Jim is most assuredly one of God's most annointed ministers and he has pastored for over 35 years. You know full well that you are the whole complete cause of his leaving this board and that it was due to your very nasty ugly attacks against him, Betty, and myself in our ocd thread. You yourself set out to destroy with all of your ugliness you could think of and you are still at it. White Eagle you are doing satan's work and you seem to glory in doing it. You need to repent and keep on repenting for all of the pain, hurt, destruction you've caused and are still causing! God will deal with you in a very powerful way when He judges you for what you've done and still continue to do! Repent!
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Good Evening GramaJo,
You are so right. White Eagle is indeed a tool of the devil. She seeks to destroy those who are aready aflicted by illness and disease. It is very sad when a Christian takes pleasure in kicking those down and out. But, we need to feel pity for her not anger. God, Himself will judge her.
betty
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramajo320:
White Eagle you are doing satan's work and you seem to glory in doing it. You need to repent and keep on repenting for all of the pain, hurt, destruction you've caused and are still causing!
While I didn't read the OCD thread myself, I definitely heard about all the damage that was done ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
And AMEN to the above!
May God's Holy Spirit move in her heart to reveal these things to her. In Jesus Name - Amen
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
Soft Touch and Texas Grandma,
Thank you both very much for your postings and Soft Touch thank you very much for your support and prayers for it's deeply appreciated very much! What White Eagle did in her destroying is just completely wrong and she needs to know that and to stop doing it! God bless you both, Soft Touch and Texas Grandma, so very much!
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
GramaJo, we may have had our differences, but it's an honor to pray for you, and it is what Jesus would have me do. I Hate what's being done to you and Betty and others who are physically challenged (for whatever reasons God has for those physical afflictions). It is NOT Right for Anyone to judge your faith or say you have a lack of it because you have a physical illness. It's not Biblical and claims like that can (and Do) do So Much Damage to the spirit of the one's suffering physical illnesses
God Bless you and give you HIS Peace on this Issue - In Jesus Name, Amen
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
You guys can believe preacher so and so or internet web sites.
I will believe in the Bible and what it teaches.
Repentance is a gift, remember that.
I won't take one word back I won't deny my Savior, Christ Jesus and the Power of His Blood.
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
Dear Soft Touch,
Once again I thank you just ever so much for your postings, for all of your support, and for all of your prayers and I want you to know how deeply I appreciate you for all that you've done and are continuing to do for Pastor Jim, for Betty, and for me! You truly are doing God's work and that is such a blessing to the Lord and to each of us and you surely will get your rewards in heaven!
Insofar as any differences in the past, Soft Touch, Please know they are completely forgotten so please let's just leave them over with and forgotten! You are doing the Lord's work to help further his kingdom just as we are doing the same for the Lord also! Please continue praying for us, Soft Touch, and we pray for you also! With all my heart God Bless you so very much!
With love from your friend,
Joanne (Gramajo320)
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
white eagle
no one asked you to stop believing in God, just have some human compassion for others. But then I doubt you are capable of that. You think you are so superior bcause you are in good health but trust me that can change over night.
betty
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
There has been given Biblical, Scriptural PROOF that Illness is Not Always caused by an individuals Sin and that lack of healing is not Always because of lack of faith. There may be instances of these things in the Bible, but that does not make it true across the board because we have shown otherwise. Therefore it is FALSE Teaching to teach that all sickness is due to one's sin (or generational curses) or that if one is not healed it is due to lack of faith. After having been SHOWN this and to then continue to insist that handicapped or ill individuals are at fault for their condition(s) is to claim that one has God's ability to see inside someone elses heart. We can not know or judge anothers heart, ONLY God can do that.
I'll stick with God's Written Holy Word and Not Twist It. It is the Ruler HE gave us to measure Truth.
And I am (unfortunately) not surprised that WhiteEagle will not repent
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
Thank you Gramajo ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
All is forgiven on my part as well I will continue to pray for you all and I thank you for your prayers for me
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
Dear Soft Touch,
Again I thank you so very much for your posting and for everything you wrote in it and please know it means so very much to me! I thank you so very much for keeping us three in your prayers and please know we will always keep you in our prayers too! You have a very blessed wonderful night and God bless you so very much as you do your work in furthering the Kingdom of God and we three are doing the very same to further God's Kingdom! God Bless You!
With love,
Joanne (Gramajo320)
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You guys can believe preacher so and so or internet web sites.
I will believe in the Bible and what it teaches.
Repentance is a gift, remember that.
I won't take one word back I won't deny my Savior, Christ Jesus and the Power of His Blood.
Repentance is a choice action set forth by the conditions of a gift.
Faith it is the gift.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
where as repentance can be of the worldly type.
2Cor.7
1. [9] Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
2. [10] For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
So some repentance indeed is not a gift, but a ticket to hell.
Posted by Lars7 (Member # 4911) on
:
I just cant believe my eyes....whats wrong with christians today....division is among you all. For those of you who believe in healing....that God has already provided it....GO RECIEVE IT!....For those of you who chose to live with your affliction...THEN DO SO!....But as we are all sons and daughters of God our Father let us not have any division among us.We are a family....let us not forget this.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
To suggest that a person with a disability chooses to stay in that condition is despicable.
No one chooses to be disabled. A Christian who has a disability prays for healing and if God chooses to say no, then the Christians chooses to live their life with grace and humility. Your comments are mean and hateful.
betty
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
There is NO Unity between Light and Darkness. There is NO Unity between True Doctrine and False Doctrine.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lars7:
I just cant believe my eyes....whats wrong with christians today....division is among you all. For those of you who believe in healing....that God has already provided it....GO RECIEVE IT!....For those of you who chose to live with your affliction...THEN DO SO!....But as we are all sons and daughters of God our Father let us not have any division among us.We are a family....let us not forget this.
~
And you do well not to believe your eyes.
2Cor.5
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
I went to bed in pain last night. I woke up in pain most of the night. Then I woke up in pain this morning. My first thought was according to a few on this board, this is my choice. Not a pleasant thought after a painful night. Then in my mischievous mood, I begin to think. Maybe every Church should hire a physiologist as well as a Preacher. Then all members with illness, handicaps, etc could go to the physiologist to see why they choose to stay that way. Within a year all Church people would be well. Then American could see this and have free physiologist for all and soon all medical doctors except for OB and Prenatal care could be eliminated. Why just look at the money that would save our Country and fellow Americans!!! We could hire White Eagle and Lars to set it up. Of course eventually there will be little need for nurses and White Eagle would have to find a new vocation, but I am sure that she is willing to make the sacrifice.
Betty
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Have you ever wondered why God when HE saved us did not just place us in our spiritual bodies then? Why do you think that God has ordained for us to occupy these bodies that get sick and decay and hurt and limit us so in the material world for a time?
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
"So get over it."
You are right. My mistake to think anyone should care about my issues. Forgive me for thinking that Christians were more compassionate then non-Christians. Maybe Churches should stop requesting prayer request from their members since Christians don't care about one another.
Then again if you are not in perfect health maybe you should stay at home and not infringe on others.
betty
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Have you ever wondered why God when HE saved us did not just place us in our spiritual bodies then? Why do you think that God has ordained for us to occupy these bodies that get sick and decay and hurt and limit us so in the material world for a time?
I believe it has a WHOLE Lot to do with our learning to totally LEAN on Him and rely on His Grace Alone. When we're at our lowest (be it physical or emotional pain) is when HE Holds and Comforts us (If we turn to Him). There was a point when my mom was dying of cancer that I was just so exhausted and sad that as I lay down to sleep I asked the Lord to Just Hold Me... What a Comfort that was! His Grace was sufficent and His Love was so overpowering in my time of need
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Have you ever wondered why God when HE saved us did not just place us in our spiritual bodies then? Why do you think that God has ordained for us to occupy these bodies that get sick and decay and hurt and limit us so in the material world for a time?
He allowed us to stay in our horrible corrupt evil physical bodies as you seem to think of them;'
so we can proclaim the Gospel and reach others for Christ.
He came that we would have LIfe more abundantly.
He came to set the captives free
He came to bind up the Broken hearted
(Uh I think that means in this life as once we're in heaven we wouldn't have a broken heart to be healed )
He came to give sight to the blind physically as well as spiritually.
( I don't think we'd need that done once we're in heaven)
He raised the dead while He was on earth. He healed the sick and demon possessed. He forgives sins. So we can be free to Love and free to spread the gospel.
Only Satan wants you to suffer, suffer, suffer.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I went to bed in pain last night. I woke up in pain most of the night. Then I woke up in pain this morning. My first thought was according to a few on this board, this is my choice. Not a pleasant thought after a painful night. Then in my mischievous mood, I begin to think. Maybe every Church should hire a physiologist as well as a Preacher. Then all members with illness, handicaps, etc could go to the physiologist to see why they choose to stay that way. Within a year all Church people would be well. Then American could see this and have free physiologist for all and soon all medical doctors except for OB and Prenatal care could be eliminated. Why just look at the money that would save our Country and fellow Americans!!! We could hire White Eagle and Lars to set it up. Of course eventually there will be little need for nurses and White Eagle would have to find a new vocation, but I am sure that she is willing to make the sacrifice.
Betty
That's the problem with your thinking. You talk about a "physiologist"?
You need Dr Jesus! Oh I forgove you already have Him?
Believe me I would be overjoyed to not be needed as a nurse.
How can I take all this seriously?
According to you and many others theology, we are here to suffer and might as well hunker down and get 'usd to it."
We are to be overcomers! Don't neglect your inheritance in Christ. Don't be like Esau that gave away his inheritance and then sought it with tears and could not gain rightful repentance.
Grandma you need to keep going to the Elders of your church body and request that they pray over you and anoint you with oil and pray in the Spirit over you. Keep doing it until God answers.
Press in to God. He will answer.
Oh yeah I guess I'm sooooooomean for suggesting that too.
That's the humorous part ...You think I'm so mean. Get a grip....On the Lord.
Love is the answer. God's Love.
As God said to Job "Gird yourself like a man" (or woman) Buck up kidd!
If you don't wish to accept sound advice from scripture, that it your choice.
I've have angina pain off and on for several months. I finally prayed and God allowed me to hit the target, and I found out it was a spiritual attack. It hasn't come back.
Do I deserve Angina pain? Yes I do. But greater is He who is in me, and He doesn't deserve it.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Have you ever wondered why God when HE saved us did not just place us in our spiritual bodies then? Why do you think that God has ordained for us to occupy these bodies that get sick and decay and hurt and limit us so in the material world for a time?
He allowed us to stay in our horrible corrupt evil physical bodies as you seem to think of them;'
so we can proclaim the Gospel and reach others for Christ.
He came that we would have LIfe more abundantly.
He came to set the captives free
He came to bind up the Broken hearted
(Uh I think that means in this life as once we're in heaven we wouldn't have a broken heart to be healed )
He came to give sight to the blind physically as well as spiritually.
( I don't think we'd need that done once we're in heaven)
He raised the dead while He was on earth. He healed the sick and demon possessed. He forgives sins. So we can be free to Love and free to spread the gospel.
Only Satan wants you to suffer, suffer, suffer.
Stop your silyness.
I do enjoy my suffering.
It helps me to see people like you.
Oh~ wimp
You need to see Christ.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
He allowed us to stay in our horrible corrupt evil physical bodies as you seem to think of them;'
so we can proclaim the Gospel and reach others for Christ.
You could do that in your spiritual body.
White Eagle out of respect to God I think that we should not engage each other on this subject.
I think that you have totally missed the boat and the target and the point and the Bible Truth on this issue.
You think the same with regard to me. We are at an impass that only the Holy Spirit can change in either of us.
Someday we will each know the truth - as HE is.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
My post from above comes off as angry. Am I angry?
I am angry that there are so many Christians who question
the spiritual life of a person because he or she is
handicapped or ill. God brought to my mind about my Church
in Houston we went to for 10 years before we moved to Washington.
At first there were only 25 families in the Church. Of the 25,
12 had handicapped plates. We had one person with MS,
one with MD, three who were legally blind, two with
lupus, one who walked with a walker and me with my cane. Well you get the
picture. Guess who were the most faithful of the
Church? Those who were handicapped. God reminded me
how he blessed that little group. Right before we
moved that Church had growned to over 100 families.
God was working in that Church despite the disabilities
of its members. In the last two years we have been
here the Church has grown enough to hire an Associate
Pastor and a Youth Leader, and yet those who were
disabled are still disabled. Who are the prayer
warriors in that Church? The disabled and ill.
You bet I am angry because all those people are coming
under question by White Eagle and BA, and others. Who
knows how many people come and read the Christian BBS
and go away discouraged because they are ill. But,
I did spend my prayer time today asking God to remove
any bitterness I might have because of those who spout off
WOF baloney.
I am not saying my anger is righteous, cause I don’t
know if it is possible for me. But, I do feel my
anger at seeing other Christians torn up by cruel
uncaring Christians is just. No matter how much
HisGrace wants to call for unity, there is not going
to be any unity as long as those who suffer illness
and disabled or made to feel less of a Christian by
other Christians.
-------------
wild b,
I am sorry that you suffer so much with pain. I will add you to my prayer list.
betty
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
AMEN Sister Betty, I share your anger that those professing Christ would do such damage to others belonging to Christ. What they teach is False.
I think that testimony of your old chuch in Texas is Awsome! Thanks for sharing it here!
God Bless you In Jesus Christ!
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Your anger is a protective device designed to protect hurt feelings. Your feelings were hurt because someone said some really mean things to you that you know are not true and have given many testimonies on behalf of your self and others that show it is not true.
The devil drops offense at out door. It is us that opens the door and drags it in. Why be offended by someone that does not rightly divide the word; does not rightly apply the word; does not speak to you out of Christian love; does not speak truth to you when they speak;
No one should be able to ever make us feel "less of a Christian" . Even when we are not acting like it we are not less of a Christian. There is no such thing as less of a Christian.
What this person claims is that your Christian walk is less than victorious because you lack faith to get God to answer prayers for healing. Is that true? Is your Christian walk less than victorious? Are You weak of faith? Does God only heal those with great faith?
Then what does that say about the person who speaks to you this way? I can tell you that it speaks to me their foolishness. I dont know about you but I am not willing to be brought into bondage and offense by someone who speaks so foolishly.
I think that it is time you slammed the door in the devil's face and refuse to drag his trash in your house, Betty as you know that he is a liar and then go about living victoriously resting in HIM who is strong when you are weak and whose grace is sufficient to get you through what ever it is that you will walk through today and tomorrow and every day until HE takes you home.
God will take care of those who come against you. You need to let HIM do that and you need to be about the business that He wants you to be about which is being the blessing that you are that ministers to all of us in spite of your arthritis.
Now, having said all that. Yes it is righteous anger when it is about the hurt that this same person brings to others. Be angry and dont sin. Be angry and fight the lies of the enemy with the word as you do know the word to do do this and you do rightly divide it and you do know its correct application. Give the tesimonies that you give because they are testimonies of the glory of God and they are truth and they do more to make the devil to look like the lying fool that he is than anything else you could do. Pray for this person they need prayer. Bless them that curse you and dispitefully use you and remain in faith and in Spirit and not only will the enemy have no power over you, but GOD will lift you up and when God is lifting you up there is none that can put you down.
Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Luke 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luke 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled.
Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Philippians 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
Dont be brought into bondage by fools Betty!
I love you sister and you do more to serve our Lord and edify this body walking across a snowy church parking lot than some people can two in a books volume of posting about things that they know nothing but lies about!
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
God bless you Betty, Linda, Ded!!!!!!!!
One should pity the ignorance of those who place their trust in the pablum of the WOFers. The blind leading the blinded into the ditch. One day they will get old, suffer disease, dabilitatiny illness, and be ostracised and denigrated by their congregations for their own "lack of faith", and inability to positively confess and over-come. Their superficial faith won't prepare them for true adversity, won't enable them to persevere when their healing won't come.
Realize the source of their ignorance, and that they are wells without water.
You have the Living Water, the true faith which has been tested and endures, shining forth as a beacon in the darkness, a true blessing to your Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matt. 6:
9: After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10: Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11: Give us this day our daily bread.
12: And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13: And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Linda,
Honey, you are so right, and you give great advice. Christians are sometimes guilty of judging other Christians just as the world judges others. They see some one physically challenged or finically stressed and they wonder what kind of spiritual inefficiency that person has. While they see their brethren who are always healthy living in a large house and driving a new car as someone who is God’s “favorite. But, God sees in the heart.
They forget that it is often the case that those who lack nothing spend less time in prayer.
It is often those who struggle financially and suffer physically that spend more time in prayer. Many times, when I wake up in pain, I find myself praying for others. I am not saying this to brag, but to say that it is possible to use what the devil does to us for use to serve God.
I wonder if because I have been such a strong presence about this subject that I may come off as one of those people who are whiners about their health. The truth is I was going to my Church for almost two years before my Pastor even knew what I had and only because he asked. I don’t go around talking about my health all the time. But it does indeed make me very angry when those who have been fed those lies by WOF people come here and seek to destroy the wounded. But, you are correct; I need to stop being angry and start feeling pity. I believe that unless they change they will be called to explain themselves to God personally. God has many great warriors in the Church today that are handicapped. I talked about our Church in Houston but here in Washington our Church has many handicapped people. We have a man who rides his electric wheel chair to Church. In my Sunday School class is a man who has issues walking and is going blind. We have about 6 people at least that are in wheel chairs at our Church. We have a young man who is mildly retarded and who loves the Lord with all his heart. When the Pastor asks people to come down and pray for others, he is the first one to run up there to pray. He is tone deaf but he sings his heart out. One Sunday we were at my son’s Church and I told my husband I actually missed hearing Sammy sing and my husband said he did too. Simply because this young man is so filled with God’s love. Charlie the guy in my Sunday School class that is going blind when he prays out loud, you can feel the Holy Spirit in the room. He is one of the kindest people I know. Years ago we had a woman come to our Church with the youth choir she directs. She is paralyzed from the waist down and yet she drives a special bus with her choir going to Churches all over South Texas. Preaching and singing for the Lord. God does use handicapped people for His glory. To suggest that these great people are some how less spiritual is an insult to them as well as to God.
I leave you with everyone with a couple of requests. When you see someone walk in on crutches, or with a cane or come in a wheel chair in your Church, please don’t try to figure out why God chose not to heal that person. Only God knows that. Instead of judging them, pray that God will work through their handicap and use them for His glory.
Linda, God bless you. I know that you know what it is like to suffer pain and yet you are a shining example of how God uses a handicapped person for His glory. Your ministry here is glory to the Lord. Bless you and your family.
betty
Drew, thank you for your words of encouragement. Debbie, Drew and Linda you are what a Christian should be. You encourage the wounded and up lift the broken hearted. Christians should encourage other Christians. How sad it is for Christians to shoot the wounded!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
He allowed us to stay in our horrible corrupt evil physical bodies as you seem to think of them;'
so we can proclaim the Gospel and reach others for Christ.
You could do that in your spiritual body.
White Eagle out of respect to God I think that we should not engage each other on this subject.
I think that you have totally missed the boat and the target and the point and the Bible Truth on this issue.
You think the same with regard to me. We are at an impass that only the Holy Spirit can change in either of us.
Someday we will each know the truth - as HE is.
Out of respect for God....? It is more like you mean out of respect for yourself is more like it.
Our of respect for God and His Word I am proclaiming what the Bible says about disease and illness and healing.
We don't have a "spiritual" body Linda. I don't quite understand that doctrine.
Spirits don't have bodies at all per se.
It's Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
You have a "spiritual" man(component) as Paul writes about which is our spirit that comes alive when we are born again. The Holy Spirit strengthens our made alive spirit. But it's not a "body".
We will receive incorruptable bodies eventually, but that is not something we have NOW.
I think YOU have totally missed the boat. Due to prejudice toward WOF. So you throw out the whole thing.
Compassion seeks to answer the need. Pity looks down on those less fortunate. Compassion seeks to ease suffering and give direction.
Empathy means one can attune oneself to another's suffering and understand it.
Anyway as to healing it's not our spiritual "body" that gets healed. It our very spirit that gets healed. and... So the healing of the body is actually talking about our physcial body.
If a body met a body coming through the Rye...
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
Betty
Do you believe that illness and handicaps make people more spiritual?
What do you think God's reasons are for allowing people to be chronically ill or handicapped?
Do you believe that illness is from God?
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
I'm not going to IGNORE that real suffering and neither does Christ.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
My post from above comes off as angry. Am I angry?
I am angry that there are so many Christians who question
the spiritual life of a person because he or she is
handicapped or ill. God brought to my mind about my Church
in Houston we went to for 10 years before we moved to Washington.
At first there were only 25 families in the Church. Of the 25,
12 had handicapped plates. We had one person with MS,
one with MD, three who were legally blind, two with
lupus, one who walked with a walker and me with my cane. Well you get the
picture. Guess who were the most faithful of the
Church? Those who were handicapped. God reminded me
how he blessed that little group. Right before we
moved that Church had growned to over 100 families.
God was working in that Church despite the disabilities
of its members. In the last two years we have been
here the Church has grown enough to hire an Associate
Pastor and a Youth Leader, and yet those who were
disabled are still disabled. Who are the prayer
warriors in that Church? The disabled and ill.
You bet I am angry because all those people are coming
under question by White Eagle and BA, and others. Who
knows how many people come and read the Christian BBS
and go away discouraged because they are ill. But,
I did spend my prayer time today asking God to remove
any bitterness I might have because of those who spout off
WOF baloney.
I am not saying my anger is righteous, cause I don’t
know if it is possible for me. But, I do feel my
anger at seeing other Christians torn up by cruel
uncaring Christians is just. No matter how much
HisGrace wants to call for unity, there is not going
to be any unity as long as those who suffer illness
and disabled or made to feel less of a Christian by
other Christians.
Your post says it all. That's the sad state of the Church: Handcapped.
If they are such prayer warriors where are the results?
Anyone getting saved? Anyone having a changed life?
So you can hire an associate pastor, Whoopy ding!
So the church grew to 100 families. Did anyone get saved? Anyone get delivered? Anyone get healed? Anyone stop drinking or smoking or fooling around or did they come to church righteous already?
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
My own family say that I am guilty of allowing myself to be ran over by people. Control freak I am not. You are indeed prejudice against handicapped people. Some day God may allow you to know what it is like to be handicapped.
God help you when he does.
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
My own family say that I am guilty of allowing myself to be ran over by people. Control freak I am not. You are indeed prejudice against handicapped people. Some day God may allow you to know what it is like to be handicapped.
God help you when he does.
betty
Having a handicap or illness is Suffering.
I am prejudiced against suffering.
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
Dear Betty,
You are a child of God and He loves you dearly and He knows that you are in His Will and He also knows that you are faithfully doing His work to further His Kingdom. God also knows that the ones who are attacking you are doing satan's work and He will deal with them. The best thing you can do is just totally disregard everything that White Eagle and the others who attack say to you.
They don't have a clue of what is true and right but you do so don't let them get you down or discourage you whatsoever because that's all they want to do. Please remember they don't have a clue. You are in God's Will and you are doing God's work. The ones who attack aren't and it shows them for what they really are.
God bless you very much Betty and stay strong - God loves you very very much!
With love from your friend,
Joanne
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Oh WhiteEagle .
Oh.
Stop hurting my people.
Your People? You own them?
Healing isn't hurting. Last I checked those definitions. Truth can hurt unfortunately.
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
quote:
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
Please do tell us what hospital or healthcare facility you work at; I have family in Maine and I would like to insure that they would never be in your care. What a horribly sad statement from a nurse. The only thing that could be worse is that it is from the mouth of a nurse who claims the name of Christ.
Absolutely unbelieveable.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Joanne,
Thank you and God bless you.
betty
White Eagle,
Lies can hurt too and you my friend are under bondage to the father of lies. You are so programed by WOF that you cannot see the truth. Shame on you for your cruel and hateful spirit.
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
My own family say that I am guilty of allowing myself to be ran over by people. Control freak I am not. You are indeed prejudice against handicapped people. Some day God may allow you to know what it is like to be handicapped.
God help you when he does.
betty
Ever see the movie Forrest Gump?
Forrest truly serves God. Know how? His mama taught him that he was just as good as anyone else, and Forrest didn't see himself as handicapped.
Forrest has a friend called major Dan. Dan lost both his legs above the knees in the war.
Major Dan had a real encounter with God in the movie during the hurricaine, he cursed God for all that was wrong in his life. He got the anger OUT. (Yes I know it was just a movie) but it was a real life issue of anger toward God about our life's misfortunes. He let God have the truth of how he really felt. God is big enough to take it.
After that Major Dan did find some peace with God and himself, and got married to a beautiful lady and continued his life as if he wasn't handicapped.
The people who can live life in peace do not "see" themselves as handicapped or ill.
They don't complain of pain, because they take care of it, and they take responsibility and they refuse to accept that pain as theirs.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Joanne,
Thank you and God bless you.
betty
White Eagle,
Lies can hurt too and you my friend are under bondage to the father of lies. You are so programed by WOF that you cannot see the truth. Shame on you for your cruel and hateful spirit.
betty
Wof?
You must read the Bible some day.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
Please do tell us what hospital or healthcare facility you work at; I have family in Maine and I would like to insure that they would never be in your care. What a horribly sad statement from a nurse. The only thing that could be worse is that it is from the mouth of a nurse who claims the name of Christ.
Absolutely unbelieveable.
What fantasy world do you live in? Do you think people are saints just because they are sick?
People are people no matter what.
Are we supposed to put the sick on a pedastal?
Sickness and illness and handicaps put people into a whole flux of emotions and behaviors so they can cope. Nothing evil about being honest about the whole process. It's a fact of life.
Sick people are not automatcially ushered into sainthood.
They need care and help, but I don't have to be blind to how they are coping with it.
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
Homeschooler,
I say a huge Amen to your posting and I completely agree with what you say. God bless you very much.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
Asking for respect is not asking to be put on pedastal, my friend. I am a saint of God not becuase of my merit but because I am saved through the blood of my Savior. I have never ever expected to be treated better than anyone.
You should ask yourself why you are so bitter against the disable. Ask yourself why you feel so much anger to those who have it worse than you. Ask youself why you lack the ablitity to have pity on others.
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
Linda,
I think I'm way too honest for you. sorry about that.
Compassion doens't mean one has to be ignorant of what is causing people to behave in certain ways.
There is nothing wrong with Bravado when one is sick or handicapped.
WHAT I'm trying to get across it that all those things SHOW ME THEIR SUFFERING.
Nothing wrong with control, we all need some degree of control in our lives. Sickness and handicaps get all those things out of balance, and that is a fact of life.
You think things are wrong that are honest, too bad. Don't read my posts.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Asking for respect is not asking to be put on pedastal, my friend. I am a saint of God not becuase of my merit but because I am saved through the blood of my Savior. I have never ever expected to be treated better than anyone.
You should ask yourself why you are so bitter against the disable. Ask yourself why you feel so much anger to those who have it worse than you. Ask youself why you lack the ablitity to have pity on others.
betty
Pity?
Is that what you really want?
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
I do not desire any pity. But, I have pity for others who have diablities. You do not. I have NEVER met a Christian before you who had no love or compassion for the lame, the blind, and other handicapped people. You are so ate up with bitterness that I pity YOU!!!
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I do not desire any pity. But, I have pity for others who have diablities. You do not. I have NEVER met a Christian before you who had no love or compassion for the lame, the blind, and other handicapped people. You are so ate up with bitterness that I pity YOU!!!
betty
Why is it OK for you to "pity" others and not want to be "pitied" yourself?
Why? Isn't pity looking down on someone.
Compassion looks you in the eye and not down on you.
Enough! This is futile.
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
Dear Betty,
I say a huge Amen to your posting and I completely agree with your postings! You are definitely in God's Will, you definitely are doing God's work to further His Kingdom and you definitely will have your rewards in heaven from God! God bless you very much!
With love from your friend,
Joanne
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Oh WhiteEagle .
Oh.
Stop hurting my people.
Your People? You own them?
Healing isn't hurting. Last I checked those definitions. Truth can hurt unfortunately.
Your type of healing is not healing.
Yes My Preople..
John.15
[13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
This thread is just Blowing my Mind! I have never seen such a lack of "MERCY" from a nurse.
Linda, I'm in full agreement with your post. I would never want to be treated by such a nurse or have anyone I know treated by such. There is such an aire of arogance in her posts and a huge lack of mercy and understanding of the Truth of God's Word that it just blows my mind!
God Bless You Betty, Linda, GramaJo, and all others who face physical challenges and have learned to be Content in all things and to Thank and Priase God in all circumstances! I will Stand on God's Word along with the three of you, Drew, Bill and others who SEE CLEARLY God's Truth in this matter.
May God have Mercy on those who do not understand HIS Word on this, and may we continue to pray for them that the Lord will remove the scales from their eyes and impart HIS mercy into their hearts.
Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on
:
Soft Touch,
I say a huge Amen to your posting with which I completely agree and with all my heart I thank you, Betty, Linda, Drew and Bill for all of your understanding, compassion, empathy, and christian love! God bless each of you just ever so much! You'll have your rewards in heaven!
Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on
:
Honest is not the word I would have used.
quote:
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
Prejudiced ? Maybe... Bigoted? Probably...
Honest? No, I dont think so. I am not in health care and have not been for many years and I know many handicapped people that are not "wrapped up in themselves" Honest just does not fit for me.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Honest is not the word I would have used.
quote:
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
Prejudiced ? Maybe... Bigoted? Probably...
Honest? No, I dont think so. I am not in health care and have not been for many years and I know many handicapped people that are not "wrapped up in themselves" Honest just does not fit for me.
You focus on this yet ignore the valid questions I asked in that same post.
God showed these verses last night in John 13:10
"Therefore the chief priests decided to also kill Lazarus, because he was the reason many of the Jews were deserting them and believing on Jesus."
John 13:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be convertedand I would heal them."
My husband told me this topic of either believing in healing or not beleiving has been a divisive issue for centuries.
What you people seem to not understand is that I can see people's suffering and their behaviors in coping with it and still Love them.
Love is not all warm fuzzy feelings. God's Love includes rebuke, discipline, chasetisement, along with Loving to give His promises to those who believe.
For some reason the Lord has been pressing upon me to write the things I had written, and be strong in it.
I feel that if it gets just one person to search the scriptures ...like a Berean... to see if these things are so, then my purpose is done.
God bless you all .
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Honest is not the word I would have used.
quote:
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
Prejudiced ? Maybe... Bigoted? Probably...
Honest? No, I dont think so. I am not in health care and have not been for many years and I know many handicapped people that are not "wrapped up in themselves" Honest just does not fit for me.
You focus on this yet ignore the valid questions I asked in that same post.
God showed these verses last night in John 13:10
"Therefore the chief priests decided to also kill Lazarus, because he was the reason many of the Jews were deserting them and believing on Jesus."
John 13:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be convertedand I would heal them."
My husband told me this topic of either believing in healing or not beleiving has been a divisive issue for centuries.
What you people seem to not understand is that I can see people's suffering and their behaviors in coping with it and still Love them.
Love is not all warm fuzzy feelings. God's Love includes rebuke, discipline, chasetisement, along with Loving to give His promises to those who believe.
For some reason the Lord has been pressing upon me to write the things I had written, and be strong in it.
I feel that if it gets just one person to search the scriptures ...like a Berean... to see if these things are so, then my purpose is done.
God bless you all .
There is no John 13:40 You must mean John 12:40.
Perhapes you should first learn how to search the Tec Manual of Life yourself before you try to present it to others.
Once again you have Jim Jones the text to fit your phyisical healing docrinal error.
The quotation you hacked up is from Isaiah , chapter 6.
"The Healing" is Spiritual in nature.
And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Mt 13:14 Luke 8:10 John 12:40 Acts 28:26
10
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Mt 13:15 Mark 4:12 Acts 28:27
Healed of what sickness? Their eyes , their ears, their hearts were working quite well in the physical but not at all in the Spiritual.
Please stop your sillyness.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
God showed these verses last night in John 13:10
"Therefore the chief priests decided to also kill Lazarus, because he was the reason many of the Jews were deserting them and believing on Jesus."
John 13:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be convertedand I would heal them."
Somethings not right here cause that's not what the KJV says:
quote:
John 13:10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
And John 13:40 doesn't exist.
I believe you mean chapter 12...
quote:
John 12:37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
This speaks of Spiritual Blindness that needs to be healed. It is not saying that all who believe on HIM will be healed of physical conditions. You've been shown so many scriptures that contradict that idea completely, yet you IGNORE them and cling to this unscriptural teaching that ALL should be healed.
quote:
Isaiah 6:9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Healed of what? Their Spiritual Blindness and Lack of Understanding.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
White Eagle,
Someone is telling to you to post this nonsense but it is not God. You are being led by the devil.
I have been trying to figure you out for weeks. Linda brought up that anger is a reaction to pain, which is very true. There is a reason that anger is listed in the stages of grief because after the shock comes the pain which is replaced soon with anger. Simply because the pain hits your like a kick in the stomach and anger is the way the mind copes with this. As, I got dressed for Church this morning, I was praying about you. God brought to my mind that another emotion that turns in to anger is fear. White Eagle, you are in a position where you take care of ill and disabled people. You see people at their worse and let’s face it ill and handicapped people often feel inadequate when they are in the hospital and have to depend on others for their very basic care. I too worked in the hospital for 3 years. Most people disabled or ill were very nice but there were a few who because of their fear and discomfort could be angry and demanding. I think you see these helpless people and you get afraid that you may one day have to depend on others for your own personal care. This fear is manifesting itself in anger. But to lump every handicapped person and every ill person into the category of demanding and angry people is just wrong on your part. Like I said before we had a dozen handicapped people in our Church in Houston and over a dozen now in Washington at Church. These people are the kindness, sweetest, and gentle people you could ever meet. They have a strong love for God. Their lack of healing on their part is not a lack of faith on their part. They love God and they are faithful to His calling. Instead of you and your husband sitting back and judging people who are not healed in this lifetime, you should be asking why you are both so bitter against ill and handicapped people. You should stop listening to the devil and start praying for God to give you patience for those who have it harder than you. If you are not careful you are going to be so eaten up with bitterness that you could become in danger of losing your soul.
betty
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
You have shown no love what so ever for handicapped people or ill people. You cannot wrap up your cruel bitter behavior in a gift package of doing God's Work. You are not doing God's work. You are sewing the seeds of the devil.
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
God showed these verses last night in John 13:10
"Therefore the chief priests decided to also kill Lazarus, because he was the reason many of the Jews were deserting them and believing on Jesus."
John 13:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they would not see with their eyes or understand with their hearts, and be convertedand I would heal them."
Somethings not right here cause that's not what the KJV says:
quote:
John 13:10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
And John 13:40 doesn't exist.
I believe you mean chapter 12...
quote:
John 12:37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
This speaks of Spiritual Blindness that needs to be healed. It is not saying that all who believe on HIM will be healed of physical conditions. You've been shown so many scriptures that contradict that idea completely, yet you IGNORE them and cling to this unscriptural teaching that ALL should be healed.
quote:
Isaiah 6:9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Healed of what? Their Spiritual Blindness and Lack of Understanding.
Sorry about the wrong chapter. It is John 12:40
The Bible is a Holman Christian Standard Bible.
The message is still the same.
Their blindness kept them from getting converted.
And healed. It's a twofold thing.
There's a lot more healing that could occur if God's people decided to read the Word and let it be part of their life.
I too think much of WOF is hype and balderdash, but so is legalism of which you people seem to stand on.
So there it is, somewhere in between.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
We are to "eat" or absorb the Word and the Word of God is to written on our hearts. That means changed lives. Since it is the Spirit of God, one doesn't have to only read the KJV.
Remember God gave the inspired word to Moses and the Prophets and they wrote in Hebrew, not King James English. The New Testament is Aramaic and Greek, not original King James English.
You people wish to "kill" me with harsh words because you don't like it that I say the Bible teaches that conversion and healing go hand in hand. The pharisees wished to kill lazarus because he is proof of Jesus' power and truth of Jesus message and it converted many people away from the Pharisees' Religion.
It's really kind of humorous that the pharisees were so petty, as to even consider killing a man who had already died and been in the grave for 4 days. They wanted to kill him? Healing was an affront to them.
As to the real John 13:10 about He who is clean need only wash his feet.....Jesus goes on to tell his disciples He washed their feet as an example to them, and that they should wash each other's feet and that the servant is not greater that his master. Jesus did not wash Judas' feet, as Judas was not chosen to be one who would be proclaiming the Good News of the Gospel.
Blessed are the feet of those who bring Good News.
And in Ephesians 6:15 .. and your feet prepared for the gospel of peace....
I challenge you to do a Bible study with a concordance and please use the KJV by all means and search all verses about healing. Study those verses. Leave out your former theology and doctrines of men. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead you into all truth.
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
White Eagle,
Someone is telling to you to post this nonsense but it is not God. You are being led by the devil.
I have been trying to figure you out for weeks. Linda brought up that anger is a reaction to pain, which is very true. There is a reason that anger is listed in the stages of grief because after the shock comes the pain which is replaced soon with anger. Simply because the pain hits your like a kick in the stomach and anger is the way the mind copes with this. As, I got dressed for Church this morning, I was praying about you. God brought to my mind that another emotion that turns in to anger is fear. White Eagle, you are in a position where you take care of ill and disabled people. You see people at their worse and let’s face it ill and handicapped people often feel inadequate when they are in the hospital and have to depend on others for their very basic care. I too worked in the hospital for 3 years. Most people disabled or ill were very nice but there were a few who because of their fear and discomfort could be angry and demanding. I think you see these helpless people and you get afraid that you may one day have to depend on others for your own personal care. This fear is manifesting itself in anger. But to lump every handicapped person and every ill person into the category of demanding and angry people is just wrong on your part. Like I said before we had a dozen handicapped people in our Church in Houston and over a dozen now in Washington at Church. These people are the kindness, sweetest, and gentle people you could ever meet. They have a strong love for God. Their lack of healing on their part is not a lack of faith on their part. They love God and they are faithful to His calling. Instead of you and your husband sitting back and judging people who are not healed in this lifetime, you should be asking why you are both so bitter against ill and handicapped people. You should stop listening to the devil and start praying for God to give you patience for those who have it harder than you. If you are not careful you are going to be so eaten up with bitterness that you could become in danger of losing your soul.
betty
The Pharisees accused Jesus of being from the devil also. They accused Him of healing by the power of Satan.
I've been a nurse for 23 years. I don't just see handicapped people socially.
Yes, many are stoic and brave and they break my heart to see their suffering and in spite of what you think I don't "judge" them. We all only live in the truth we know of God and we all do not have all the truth at the same time or the same intensity of understanding of that Truth to live in it.
It's easy to take care of a "nice" sick person. And many people are very kind to me in spite of their illnesses. It's not as easy to take care of sick people that are dealing with their own anger, grief, lack of physical control or other emotions and they will take it out on caregivers.
So I need to understand where they might be coming from so I can cope with them.
Likewise, I know nothing about you except what you write in your posts Betty.
God is dealing with you or you would not be so upset about this healing business. I have never written an evil word to you, and have just given you what the word of God says about healing.
I have spoken about illness and handicaps in general terms, not to you personally and even LARS did not write to you expressly yet you assumed he was bashing YOU.
When I started this whole topic many days/weeks ago, I never even had you in mind. It wasn't even about you as far as I was concerned when I started writing about God's promises of healing.
I was just stating what I believed about Isaiah 53:5.
I was also trying to proclaim what God has done for me. As that is what I do know personally.
I live in Christ as he died and gave Himself for me, and the Life I now live is by faith. parphased Gal 2:20
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
OK here are the questions that everyone is ignoring:
1-Do you believe that illness and handicaps make people more spiritual?
2-What do you think God's reasons are for allowing people to be chronically ill or handicapped?
3-Do you believe that illness is from God?
When James 5:15-16 says : "The prayer of faith will save the sick person and the Lord shall raise him up; and IF he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins on to another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed The intense prayer of the righteous is very powerful."
So how do you comprehend this when people aren't healed?
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
2Cr 4:15 For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;
2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
Correlating Passagesour
2Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Cr 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.
2Cr 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Cr 11:26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;
2Cr 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Cr 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
Psa 30:5 For his anger [endureth but] a moment; in his favour [is] life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy [cometh] in the morning.
Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Act 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
1Pe 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you].
worketh
Psa 119:67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
Psa 119:71 [It is] good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Rom 5:3 And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Phl 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
Hbr 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Jam 1:3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jam 1:4 But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
WhiteEagle:
I was just stating what I believed about Isaiah 53:5.
Caretaker:
And your interpretation with both the passage in Isaiah and the cross reference in Peter were taken out of their proper context, as has been addressed early on.
Peter’s writing in 1 Peter 2, is a direct reference to Isaiah 53. The use of “healing”, is spiritual healing/restoration within its proper context. The Word of Faith proponents wrest it as it were to the deception of themselves and those who follow them.
Isaiah 53:
1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
1 Peter 2:
21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25: For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
5. wounded--a bodily wound; not mere mental sorrow; literally, "pierced"; minutely appropriate to Messiah, whose hands, feet, and side were pierced (Psalms 22:16). The Margin, wrongly, from a Hebrew root, translates, "tormented."
for . . . for--(Romans 4:25, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Peter 2:24, 3:18)--the cause for which He suffered not His own, but our sins.
bruised--crushing inward and outward suffering
chastisement--literally, the correction inflicted by a parent on children for their good (Hebrews 12:5-8,10,11). Not punishment strictly; for this can have place only where there is guilt, which He had not; but He took on Himself the chastisement whereby the peace (reconciliation with our Father; Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:14,15,17) of the children of God was to be effected (Hebrews 2:14).
upon him--as a burden; parallel to "hath borne" and "carried."
stripes--minutely prophetical of His being scourged (Matthew 27:26, 1 Peter 2:24).
healed--spiritually (Psalms 41:4, Jeremiah 8:22).
Psalm 41:
1: Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.
2: The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies.
3: The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness.
4: I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
Jeremiah 8:
18: When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me.
19: Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion? is not her king in her? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, and with strange vanities?
20: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.
21: For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.
22: Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?
Hebrew “healed”
Strong's Number: 07495 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
apr a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Rapha' TWOT - 2196
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
raw-faw'
Verb
Definition
1. to heal, make healthful
a. (Qal) to heal
1. of God
2. healer, physician (of men)
3. of hurts of nations involving restored favour (fig)
4. of individual distresses (fig)
b. (Niphal) to be healed
1. literal (of persons)
2. of water, pottery
3. of national hurts (fig)
4. of personal distress (fig)
c. (Piel) to heal
1. literal
2. of national defects or hurts (fig)
d. (Hithpael) in order to get healed (infinitive)
1 Peter 2 Read This Chapter
2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Greek “heal”:
Strong's Number: 2390 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ijavomai middle voice of apparently a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Iaomai 3:194,344
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ee-ah'-om-ahee
Verb
Definition
1. to cure, heal
2. to make whole
a. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation
Isaiah 19:
22: And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23: In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24: In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
Isaiah 57:
12: I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.
13: When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
14: And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.
15: For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
16: For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
17: For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18: I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19: I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
20: But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21: There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.
1 Peter 2:
24. his own self--there being none other but Himself who could have done it. His voluntary undertaking of the work of redemption is implied. The Greek puts in antithetical juxtaposition, OUR, and His OWN SELF, to mark the idea of His substitution for us. His "well-doing" in His sufferings is set forth here as an example to servants and to us all (1 Peter 2:20).
bare--to sacrifice: carried and offered up: a sacrificial term. Isaiah 53:11,12, "He bare the sin of many": where the idea of bearing on Himself is the prominent one; here the offering in sacrifice is combined with that idea. So the same Greek means in 1 Peter 2:5.
our sins--In offering or presenting in sacrifice (as the Greek for "bare" implies) His body, Christ offered in it the guilt of our sins upon the cross, as upon the altar of God, that it might be expiated in Him, and so taken away from us. Compare Isaiah 53:10, "Thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin." Peter thus means by "bare" what the Syriac takes two words to express, to bear and to offer: (1) He hath borne our sins laid upon Him [namely, their guilt, curse, and punishment]; (2) He hath so borne them that He offered them along with Himself on the altar. He refers to the animals upon which sins were first laid, and which were then offered thus laden [VITRINGA]. Sin or guilt among the Semitic nations is considered as a burden lying heavily upon the sinner [GESENIUS].
on the tree--the cross, the proper place for One on whom the curse was laid: this curse stuck to Him until it was legally (through His death as the guilt-bearer) destroyed in His body: thus the handwriting of the bond against us is cancelled by His death.
that we being dead to sins--the effect of His death to "sin" in the aggregate, and to all particular "sins," namely, that we should be as entirely delivered from them, as a slave that is dead is delivered from service to his master. This is our spiritful standing through faith by virtue of Christ's death: our actual mortification of particular sins is in proportion to the degree of our effectually being made conformable to His death. "That we should die to the sins whose collected guilt Christ carried away in His death, and so LIVE TO THE RIGHTEOUSNESS (compare Isaiah 53:11. 'My righteous servant shall justify many'), the gracious relation to God which He has brought in" [STEIGER].
by whose stripes--Greek, "stripe."
ye were healed--a paradox, yet true. "Ye servants (compare 'buffeted,' 'the tree,' 1 Peter 2:20,24) often bear the strife; but it is not more than your Lord Himself bore; learn from Him patience in wrongful sufferings.
25. (Isaiah 53:6.)
For--Assigning their natural need of healing (1 Peter 2:24).
now--Now that the atonement for all has been made, the foundation is laid for individual conversion: so "ye are returned," or "have become converted to," &c.
Shepherd and Bishop--The designation of the pastors and elders of the Church belongs in its fullest sense to the great Head of the Church, "the good Shepherd." As the "bishop" oversees (as the Greek term means), so "the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous" (1 Peter 3:12). He gives us His spirit and feeds and guides us by His word. "Shepherd," Hebrew, "Parnas," is often applied to kings, and enters into the composition of names, as "Pharnabazus."
WhiteEagle:
OK here are the questions that everyone is ignoring:
1-Do you believe that illness and handicaps make people more spiritual?
2-What do you think God's reasons are for allowing people to be chronically ill or handicapped?
3-Do you believe that illness is from God?
When James 5:15-16 says : "The prayer of faith will save the sick person and the Lord shall raise him up; and IF he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins on to another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed The intense prayer of the righteous is very powerful."
So how do you comprehend this when people aren't healed?
Caretaker:
James 5:
15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
The prayer of faith entails both the prayer of the sick person and the prayer of the elders, who in faith meet the requirments of this passage. But it suggests much more, because this faith is effectual. Some sick have had little faith, yet have been healed (Acts 3:4-8); others like Paul have have had great faith, yet have not been healed (2 Cor. 12:7-10). Further, those who possessed the gift of healing in the early church were at times unable to perform healing as they may have wished (2 Tim. 4:20).
The Greek text suggests this rendering, "The prayer produced by the faith will heal". The prayer that results from true faith is effective. Elijah experienced this prayer of faith (James 5:17-18). Elijah knew God's Word and will, and so persistantly prayed (1 Kings 18:36, 37, 42-46). Faith is people acting according to God's known purpose (1 John 5:14). The prayer of faith does not include a gift of healing. It does not exert extraordinary spiritual strength (Acts 3:12); otherwise all spiritual christians would be healthy (3 John 2). Nor does it merely involve the ritual of James 5:14. The prayer of faith discerns God's will and perseveres until it is accomplished. God's will however, is NOT to heal in every case, and TRUE faith can discern and accept that (Romans 8:26-27).
Although God does not always choose to heal, He sometimes does. When a Christian is sick he should confess his known sins, and God may heal him if the sickness is due to sin. He may also ask the elders in the church to annoint him with oil and pray for him. Some diseases experienced by Christians today could be prevented by trusting God as Yahweh-Rapha, the Lord Who Heals You, and allow Him to deal with those things in their lives causing stress, anger, worry (Ex. 15:16, James 5:14-16; Matt. 19:140).
WhiteEagle your adherence to the WOF heresy causes you to intrinsicly place the blame for the sickness upon the patient, in your heart to denigrate the faith of the patient, from your supposed position of sapiritual superiority.
Your theology would have blamed Paul as having a lack of faith for leaving someone sick, or not being healed of his "thorn".
Repent WhiteEagle!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
WhiteEagle:
I was just stating what I believed about Isaiah 53:5.
Caretaker:
And your interpretation with both the passage in Isaiah and the cross reference in Peter were taken out of their proper context, as has been addressed early on.
Peter’s writing in 1 Peter 2, is a direct reference to Isaiah 53. The use of “healing”, is spiritual healing/restoration within its proper context. The Word of Faith proponents wrest it as it were to the deception of themselves and those who follow them.
Just because YOU say it's out of context does NOT make it SO. You give the whole passage yet still miss IT!
quote:
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
24: Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
5. wounded--a bodily wound; not mere mental sorrow; literally, "pierced"; minutely appropriate to Messiah, whose hands, feet, and side were pierced (Psalms 22:16). The Margin, wrongly, from a Hebrew root, translates, "tormented."
for . . . for--(Romans 4:25, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 9:28, 1 Peter 2:24, 3:18)--the cause for which He suffered not His own, but our sins.
bruised--crushing inward and outward suffering
chastisement--literally, the correction inflicted by a parent on children for their good (Hebrews 12:5-8,10,11). Not punishment strictly; for this can have place only where there is guilt, which He had not; but He took on Himself the chastisement whereby the peace (reconciliation with our Father; Romans 5:1, Ephesians 2:14,15,17) of the children of God was to be effected (Hebrews 2:14).
upon him--as a burden; parallel to "hath borne" and "carried."
stripes--minutely prophetical of His being scourged (Matthew 27:26, 1 Peter 2:24).
quote:
healed--spiritually (Psalms 41:4, Jeremiah 8:22)
3: The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness.
4: I said, LORD, be merciful unto me: heal my soul; for I have sinned against thee.
Hebrew “healed”
Strong's Number: 07495 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
apr a primitive root
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Rapha' TWOT - 2196
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
raw-faw'
Verb
Definition
1. to heal, make healthful
a. (Qal) to heal
1. of God
2. healer, physician (of men)
3. of hurts of nations involving restored favour (fig)
4. of individual distresses (fig)
b. (Niphal) to be healed
1. literal (of persons)
2. of water, pottery
3. of national hurts (fig)
4. of personal distress (fig)
c. (Piel) to heal
1. literal
2. of national defects or hurts (fig)
d. (Hithpael) in order to get healed (infinitive)
You are even contradicting the complete meaning of healing and have decided it only means Spiritual healing. While it does include spiritual healing it also includes physcial and mental and total healing.
quote:
1 Peter 2 Read This Chapter
2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Greek “heal”:
Strong's Number: 2390 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ijavomai middle voice of apparently a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Iaomai 3:194,344
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ee-ah'-om-ahee
Verb
Definition
1. to cure, heal
2. to make whole
a. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation
Again you have decided to pick and chose which definitions fit your theology and personal experience.
quote:
Caretaker:
James 5:
15: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
The prayer of faith entails both the prayer of the sick person and the prayer of the elders, who in faith meet the requirments of this passage. But it suggests much more, because this faith is effectual. Some sick have had little faith, yet have been healed (Acts 3:4-8); others like Paul have have had great faith, yet have not been healed (2 Cor. 12:7-10). Further, those who possessed the gift of healing in the early church were at times unable to perform healing as they may have wished (2 Tim. 4:20).
The Greek text suggests this rendering, "The prayer produced by the faith will heal". The prayer that results from true faith is effective. Elijah experienced this prayer of faith (James 5:17-18). Elijah knew God's Word and will, and so persistantly prayed (1 Kings 18:36, 37, 42-46). Faith is people acting according to God's known purpose (1 John 5:14).
Here you are giving my arguement much credence yourself yet you persist and go on to negate what you have just professed from scripture:
quote:
Caretaker: The prayer of faith does not include a gift of healing. It does not exert extraordinary spiritual strength (Acts 3:12); otherwise all spiritual christians would be healthy (3 John 2). Nor does it merely involve the ritual of James 5:14. The prayer of faith discerns God's will and perseveres until it is accomplished. God's will however, is NOT to heal in every case, and TRUE faith can discern and accept that (Romans 8:26-27).
Your scriptural evidence for you manmade doctrine is faulty. 3 John 2 says:"I pray you may prosper in every way and be in good health, just as your soul prospers. This scripture
shows that the souls' health is tied to physcial health. It's saying to be spiritual is to have good health also.
You admit that faith and righteousness are part of receiving healing then you ADD things like Romans 8:26-27 which is teaching that we don't always even know how to pray correctly and that's why the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings that can't be uttered by human weakness.
quote:
although God does not always choose to heal, He sometimes does. When a Christian is sick he should confess his known sins, and God may heal him if the sickness is due to sin. He may also ask the elders in the church to annoint him with oil and pray for him. Some diseases experienced by Christians today could be prevented by trusting God as Yahweh-Rapha, the Lord Who Heals You, and allow Him to deal with those things in their lives causing stress, anger, worry (Ex. 15:16, James 5:14-16; Matt. 19:140).
Here again you admit what I've already stated about healing and then you deny it in the same post.??????
You and many many others have made up doctrines that God's will is not heal some people and it has nothing to do with their faith or spiritual walk. You twist scriptures to human experience NOT to God's will. You have not seen people healed according to biblical promises, so you make up weak platitudes to placate those who are not healed.
Paul says about God and Abrahams's faith. No it's not specifically about healing for Abraham, it's about faith that he would be the father of many nations in spite of being too old to bear children with his wife Sarah. Romans 4:17b
"He believed in God who gives life to the dead and calls things into existance that do not exist."
God calls things that are not, as though they are.KJV
When the Son of Man returns to the earth will He find any Faith?
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Watcher:
2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
This is a fact of all human life that we start dying physically from the day we are born. Even healthy people BTW are dying physcially every day. It's called aging. without Christ we would just physcially die without hope.
Alot of scriptures on patience, we don't need to sick to need patience, mine is running thin.
Hard=hearted people!
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
Caretaker:
Perhaps it is you who needs to Repent?
I'll leave that to the Holy Spirit and you.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Caretaker:
Perhaps it is you who needs to Repent?
I'll leave that to the Holy Spirit and you.
WhiteEagle = religious snob.
snob (snŏb) pronunciation
n.
1. One who tends to patronize, rebuff, or ignore people regarded as social inferiors and imitate, admire, or seek association with people regarded as social superiors.
2. One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect.
~
Maybe you should respectfully request some real duty at a verterans hospital.
Na~ a religious snob couldnt handel the real truth of cause and effect..
[6] For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.(some say it was his eyes that were burned by the Glory of Christ. That was healed, but started to fail him later on in his ministry)
[8] For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
[9] And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
[10] Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
WAKE UP !!!!!
A patriot in Christ.
WB USNR BT2
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
"You people wish to "kill" me with harsh words because you don't like it that I say the Bible teaches that conversion and healing go hand in hand. The Pharisees wished to kill Lazarus because he is proof of Jesus' power and truth of Jesus message and it converted many people away from the Pharisees' Religion."
This is so stupid, that is beyond comment.
You do judge people. You do look at handicapped people and judge them unworthy or they would be healed. God looks at a handicapped person and sees the work He is doing through them. God is able to get more glory from the 6 people who come regularly to Church in a wheel chair then those who come in on their own two legs. It has been brought up about all the beautiful songs that Fannie Crosby wrote even though she was blind, yet you see her as a weak faith Christian because God chose to heal her in Heaven. You will face God one day and He will accuse you to your face of being cruel and lacking love towards His children because of the cross He asked them to bear. Instead of looking down on others, stop watching those WOF people and get your Bible out. Try to become the Christian that Joni is. WOF are out to fill their pocket books and some are not above performing "fake healings" to do so. Others don't pray for those that are in wheel chairs for fear it will look bad on them.
When I see your cruelty to handicapped people, my heart does not break for myself. My heart breaks for those in wheel chairs, blind, mentally disabled. I too worked in a hospital and I only felt compassion on those I took care of. You say you do to, but it is impossible to have compassion for others, when in your heart you are thinking that it is their on fault that they are ill or handicapped. Like I said if you do not repent you are heading for a big fall. One day you may be in a wheel chair and you will be tormented that your faith and superiority did not heal you.
Time after time people here have tried to counsel you but you are above listening to anyone. When God brings you to reality, you will not be able to blame us.
It is like when I was in the first grade and I was playing on the monkey bars, I laughed when a child fell, only to fall, too. My teacher told me that this was a valuable lesson for me to learn because if you feel joy at others misfortune, you too will suffer. I don’t think you feel joy but you feel contempt for those who are less fortunate then you and this will be your undoing.
betty
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Caretaker:
Perhaps it is you who needs to Repent?
I'll leave that to the Holy Spirit and you.
WhiteEagle = religious snob.
snob (snŏb) pronunciation
n.
1. One who tends to patronize, rebuff, or ignore people regarded as social inferiors and imitate, admire, or seek association with people regarded as social superiors.
2. One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect.
~
Maybe you should respectfully request some real duty at a verterans hospital.
Na~ a religious snob couldnt handel the real truth of cause and effect..
![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
Hilarious! Now I'm a snob?????
TOOFUNNY! Is that the best you can cough up?
I have worked with Vetrans, they are the best. WWI, WW2 and Lorean War and Vietnam War vets.
My son serves in the Army and has spent 2 years in South Korea and is now going to Iraq.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
OK here are the questions that everyone is ignoring:
1-Do you believe that illness and handicaps make people more spiritual?
2-What do you think God's reasons are for allowing people to be chronically ill or handicapped?
3-Do you believe that illness is from God?
These questions have Not been ignored... you need to go back and re-read. They've been addressed Several times in several ways Using Scripture to show that your Doctrine is Faulty. I see no need to go over all of this again (and again, and again). You’re not listening.
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You people wish to "kill" me with harsh words because you don't like it that I say the Bible teaches that conversion and healing go hand in hand.
As for anyone wishing to "kill" you... Wow, that's a stretch. What we're "Trying" to do is SHOW you how your Doctine is in Error according to Scripture. This is what YOU keep Ignoring.
As for someone trying to “kill” another… consider these words from your own hand:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
These are NOT words that bring Life… they Wound the spirit of those who suffer affliction. It is You who are trying to “Kill” others with harsh words, but you don’t seem to see this
Would you PLEASE take an Honset look at this?!
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You and many many others have made up doctrines that God's will is not heal some people and it has nothing to do with their faith or spiritual walk. You twist scriptures to human experience NOT to God's will. You have not seen people healed according to biblical promises, so you make up weak platitudes to placate those who are not healed.
No WhiteEagle, it's you who have picked and chosen passages which support your false doctrine and IGNORED Clear Scriptural Evidence that shows that God does NOT Always Heal - and these instances had Nothing to do with a Lack of Faith. Therefore you are taking away from Scripture - which we're told Not to do.
Why was Paul not healed? Why was Timothy not healed? Why did Paul leave his sick friend behind without healing him?
What you fail to see is that we are not denying what Scripture says regarding Faith and Healing; what we are Denying is your claim that Scripture supports the idea that ALL should be healed (and if they're not then it's due to lack of faith). We've given numerous Scripture passages to prove that is a False Doctrine (which you are Clinging to).
Scripture Does Not Contradict Scripture. In order for your position to be correct, you'd have to throw out the Scripture passages we have given. Obviously, there's something WRONG... don'tcha think?
Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I was poo-hooed for putting this message on another thread, but I will give one more warning. Obviously my words are falling on deaf ears, and I feel led to spend another season away from the 'Exposing False Teaching Forum.'
I have proven on different occasions that lies have been printed about some of these preachers.
Be careful not to buy into these lies. Is the devil deceiving you?
This material is being printed in massive numbers on this Board. Are people really using careful discretion when they press these buttons willy-nilly? This could be a very dangerous practise.
Proverbs 19:5
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free.
As of this moment I make a vow before God and man to never enter this 'Exposing 'forum again, because to me it is just the equivalent of picking up The National Enquirer or the Globe beside the checkout count at my local grocery store and having a naughty peak at all of the slander that is being printed about those who are totally defenceless against the caustic power of the printed word.
You can lash out at me all you want with personal attacks, calling me stupid, as one person was called to-day, ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
or saying that I twist the truth, or that I am rebelling against God, because I won't be seeing it.
I must obey The Holy Spirit - if I look back I'm going to turn into a pillar of salt.
Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on
:
We can only hope!!
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
it is funny how HisGrace lashes out at what she calls personal attacks, when she falsely accused me only yesterday and she refuses to apologize.
all i can is "Bye Bye!"
like Watcher, I too hope she keeps her word. She was one of the ones who pushed for this heading and then she could not stay out of it. Coming in day after day and complaining about what we post. This section of the board is calle EXPOSING FALSE TEACHING, so what did she expect? People sharing recipes. like the old saying if you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen.
betty
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
dear sister TEXASGRANDMA, you write about sister HisGrace quote:
like Watcher, I too hope she keeps her word. She was one of the ones who pushed for this heading and then she could not stay out of it. Coming in day after day and complaining about what we post. This section of the board is called EXPOSING FALSE TEACHING, so what did she expect? People sharing recipes? like the old saying if you can't stand the heat then stay out of the kitchen. betty
I personally could not care less where you all are located. I will participate and enjoy my brothers and sisters in Christ no matter where they are currently located.
I love sister HisGrace and agree often with her spirit. I think this forum is a proving-ground for sister HisGrace in that this forum "upsets her", even to the point that sister HisGrace issued an ultimatum. As I wrote to sister HisGrace, "it is not wise to issue an ultimatum" because then the LORD cannot use you (HisGrace) in this forum."
Which probably makes someone here a bit happier. I understand it is not easy to love our opponents (euphemism for enemies).
Anyway, God bless, TEXASGRANDMA, there is a place for everybody in the Body of Christ. Care to identify your body part?
1 Corinthians 12:15-17 (KJV)
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? And if the whole were an ear, where would the smelling be?
God bless, sister. BORN AGAIN
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
OK here are the questions that everyone is ignoring:
1-Do you believe that illness and handicaps make people more spiritual?
2-What do you think God's reasons are for allowing people to be chronically ill or handicapped?
3-Do you believe that illness is from God?
These questions have Not been ignored... you need to go back and re-read. They've been addressed Several times in several ways Using Scripture to show that your Doctrine is Faulty. I see no need to go over all of this again (and again, and again). You’re not listening.
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You people wish to "kill" me with harsh words because you don't like it that I say the Bible teaches that conversion and healing go hand in hand.
As for anyone wishing to "kill" you... Wow, that's a stretch. What we're "Trying" to do is SHOW you how your Doctine is in Error according to Scripture. This is what YOU keep Ignoring.
As for someone trying to “kill” another… consider these words from your own hand:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Most handicapped people that I've met are controlling people, as they learn that, to compensate for what they can't control.
I"m sorry to say I have never met any handicapped person who wan't all wrapped up in themselves, even if they put on a good front. Even Christians who suffer with a "smile".
It's bravado at best. People who are chronically ill basically act about the same way.
These are NOT words that bring Life… they Wound the spirit of those who suffer affliction. It is You who are trying to “Kill” others with harsh words, but you don’t seem to see this
Would you PLEASE take an Honset look at this?!
You are still stuck on what I have honestly observed about chronically ill people. Sorry but what do you think "suffering" looks like?
All people who suffer from anything will have some outward emotional coping mechanisms to deal with their condition. They will behave in different ways to "control" what they have lost through being ill.
Get over your fantasy world ideas about suffering.
By his stripes we are healed... whoever is suffering... why wouldn't they want to let go of their suffering and have faith in relief through Jesus?
Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
You and many many others have made up doctrines that God's will is not heal some people and it has nothing to do with their faith or spiritual walk. You twist scriptures to human experience NOT to God's will. You have not seen people healed according to biblical promises, so you make up weak platitudes to placate those who are not healed.
No WhiteEagle, it's you who have picked and chosen passages which support your false doctrine and IGNORED Clear Scriptural Evidence that shows that God does NOT Always Heal - and these instances had Nothing to do with a Lack of Faith. Therefore you are taking away from Scripture - which we're told Not to do.
Why was Paul not healed? Why was Timothy not healed? Why did Paul leave his sick friend behind without healing him?
What you fail to see is that we are not denying what Scripture says regarding Faith and Healing; what we are Denying is your claim that Scripture supports the idea that ALL should be healed (and if they're not then it's due to lack of faith). We've given numerous Scripture passages to prove that is a False Doctrine (which you are Clinging to).
Scripture Does Not Contradict Scripture. In order for your position to be correct, you'd have to throw out the Scripture passages we have given. Obviously, there's something WRONG... don'tcha think?
Scripture doesn't say that Timothy was chronically ill. Paul gives Timothy advice to take a little wine for his stomach's sake and frequent illnesses and not to take water only.
From my perspective this could mean that in some places Timothy visited the water was contaminated and by drinking a little wine it would prevent the GI problems. It would be like us going to Mexico or Europe and having an experienced person tell us not the drink the water, but drink wine or bottled water so we could avoid traveler's diarrhea.
Paul admits he had a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble. Yet he was physcially able to travel around the known world of his day and had great vigor and strength. His eyes were bad, and he needed someone to write for him.
While some of us who have great ministries might be given a thorn in flesh like Paul to keep us humble, I would add that most of us do not have the office of an Apostle or have great ministries for God, and while many of us are very prideful, and might benefit from a "thorn" in the flesh, most of us are not mature enough to even get one. We can't make a "Doctrine" that all sickness is a thorn from God to keep us humble, Especially in light of what the Gospels teach about Jesus' ministry.
Which person was left behind sick? by Paul? The only one we discussed about previously was healed.
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
[QB] We can't make a "Doctrine" that all sickness is a thorn from God to keep us humble,
And No One has
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
BA,
We did a test at Church to see our Spiritual gifts and mine were mercy and help. Through out my life God has used me to work with shut-ins, people in nursing homes, and handicapped people. This is one of the reasons, I find the WOF people so cruel.
I have held the hands of great prayer warriors who were dying who were completely at peace with God. These people had faith, but they had put God before their pain. They chose His will not theirs.
The WOF preaches a different Gospel then the Bible. Their Gospel is hurtful to those that God chooses to use on earth with their disease and handicaps. From the time I was a young child, I visited nursing homes with my mom. I grew to love those who others neglected.
People can push the WOF agenda all they want; they cannot explain why they sit those who are in wheelchairs in the back of the room so they don't show up on camera.
As far as HisGrace, my point was not that she was not welcome. My point was this thread was made at her insistence because she made it clear to David that she did not want to hear about this subject. Then she made it a point to come here and make trouble. You can't complain about how hot the kitchen is, if you keep going back in there to stir the pot.
betty
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
dear sister TEXASGRANDMA, mercy and helps are goodly gifts to have received, Amen?
re HisGrace, you write quote:
You can't complain about how hot the kitchen is, if you keep going back in there to stir the pot.
How about, "eventhough the kitchen is excessively hot, I must still come to stir the pot for my kids need to eat?"
So, just to get some more perspective, what, if anything, do I do differently than, say, HisGrace when I come here?
I've even come to believe, thanks to y'all, that is is possible that the Lord assigns some of y'all to "keep an eye on what's being said by Christians and committee report on it."
I'm obviously not part of the "keep an eye out committee", but that's fine, since the Lord would presumably only need a certain amount of Christians to do that task in His Vineyard, while other Christians do other tasks in His Vineyard.
(I was handed a shovel, for instance. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
)
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
And what's actually funny, or not so funny, is that HisGrace is the one who posted this most-successful of Threads, having received a highly respectable 267 hits/replies, and is probably in the top 3 all-time reply getters on this CBBS. Way to go, HG! That one of her best Topics would end up in this Exposing False Teaching forum, is, well, ironic.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
BA,
You and I do not always agree, but you treat people with respect. This is not the case with HisGrace. Who has been very rude to Drew, Linda, Soft-Touch, and myself.
betty
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
TexasGrandma,
None of us are perfect but not all of us tattle on the other posters. (While I have no insider knowledge, your list is telling.)
AMH
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
TexasGrandma,
None of us are perfect but not all of us tattle on the other posters. (While I have no insider knowledge, your list is telling.)
AMH
Huh? I have No Idea what this means; could you expound a little please?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
TexasGrandma,
None of us are perfect but not all of us tattle on the other posters. (While I have no insider knowledge, your list is telling.)
AMH
Stand Down Mr.
Bible, King James Version
1 match.
Jer.23
1. [32] Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
SoftTouch,
Your name was inadvertently placed on the wrong list. My sincerest apologies.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Stand down where?
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
Stand down where?
AMH
Your sillyness.
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
So you want me to come down to your level?
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
So you want me to come down to your level?
AMH
Do you think you can? I had dinner under rail road bridges with the rail walkers.
No. Manny the places I walked only God could pertect you thru.
No do not follow me Follow Christ
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Well I never had any intentions of following you as that would be the road to nowhere.
But thanks for the directions all the same.
AMH
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
Well I never had any intentions of following you as that would be the road to nowhere.
But thanks for the directions all the same.
AMH
OK~But The High and Lofty One wanted your intent posted for the base ball fans. He
Why so angry?
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
The rail walkers that I have met usually have a taste for crow. Is that something that you would like?
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Very well.
I leave you to the title, (of this thread).
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Something is being lost in the translation.
I am happy to turn once again to you. Shall we entertain your thoughts?
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Yes you finally write something worth 2 cents. That I am human you can rest assured. But that you are correct about anything else that you have written at some of the other posters in this thread-
No I don’t think that I will let you be right today.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
I seem to have stumbled into the land of the giants. Shall I enter? Shall I run away?
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Then it will be enter. And either wipe my shoes on the welcome mat that you have most graciously set out for me or else knock the dust from the souls.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Your speech is slurred. Reminiscent of the little lady sitting on the seven.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Yes, the only point of view is her’s. Everyone else is put out. Just like I was saying when first I began.
AMH
Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on
:
And I am still confused. What list?
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
On those cold nights out by the tracks did it ever occur to you that pride is a dish best served cold?
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Yes your friends, the ones that really annoy. That they have fed you well can be understood by the extra that you carry.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Since healings stop why don’t you.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Yes. A form with the ever present denial.
I am sorry also, about the weak knees that will never be healed.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
We all know that. Glad that you admitted it.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
Not what I wish. That would be your line. You see, we do not need you to tell us what God says, that is His line.
He heals us, gives us wisdom and all other good things come from Him.
Quit with the tough guy act. God can even give us courage, if we need it. So far I think not.
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
That is ok WildB. But our God is a mighty God. He is able to do many things very well. What we do must glorify Him. What else is there?
AMH
Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on
:
WildB,
So maybe we can be friends.
By the way, the slur is gone. A miracle healing right before our eyes.
AMH
Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on
:
Is this the AMH I know? quote:
That is ok WildB. But our God is a mighty God. He is able to do many things very well. What we do must glorify Him. What else is there?
AMH
A miracle has happened. Or actually, I think AMH can talk straightforward if he chooses to do so since "what we must do is glorify Him" henceforth.
What else is there? A worker worthy of his/her wages.
"And He found yet others standing idle in the marketplace, who said "No man has hired us", and He hired them and "send them into the Vineyard."
"Look, Lord, with your two talents I have gained two more talents. You have been faithful over little, you shall rule over many things. Enter you therefore in the joy of the Lord."
"Look, Lord, with your 10 talents I have gained ten more talents". "Well done, good and faithful slave-servant (doulos)... be you over many things. And enter into the joy of the Lord".
Then came the one who had been given one talent (watch out, we're all given at least one talent if it is still before the last hour of the workday in the Vineyard.
But the one with just one talent said, "Lord, I was afraid and hid your talent in the ground {"lest I lose it"). Here it is back.
"you unprofitable slave-servant, you should have put your money with the bankers (the preachers) and I would received mine with interest" ("and I would have saved you").
"But now, take from him even what he has {was given, the one talent given to ALL Christians (unless they're on their deathbed).
"for faith without works is dead". But the work can be as small as given my talent to the preachers to use.
Or use my one talent to type on Internet Christian church and preach to gospel to the whole world. But the talent must be used, for else the Lord will "appoint us a place with the hypocrites".
Having done not even one work in the Vineyard (unless converted too late in our lives), He took the one talent from this person. I think this talent represents the Holy Spirit.
It was given to that would-be Christian, but he never ended up making use of the Holy Spirit to at least "do SOMETHING in the Vineyard of the Lord".
What are YOU doing with your one talent? Did you notice that the ones who had TWO talents and TEN talents DID very well? If talent represents the Holy Spirit, were they given more Holy Spirit than the one talent person?
"Be Very Careful"
may the LORD (YWHY) God (Elohim) of Israel bless us, BORN AGAIN
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