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Author
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Topic: Be Very Careful
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
Linda,
I'll try to respond to you later, as I'm quite tired now.
Spiritual discipline
Where do I begin??????
Bodily exercise profits little....but godliness is beneficial in every way. 1 Tim 4:8
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
White Eagle,
Please explain why if healing is based on the faith of those praying whether they are healed or not, why one was healed and one was not when the same people were praying.
"My Pastor in Houston back about 30 years ago was diagnosed with inoperable cancer. The doctors said he would die. The Church, him and his wife prayed and God healed him. He is still pasturing a Church at age 78. His wife inherited MD. She has it and so does one of her daughter. The same group of people prayed for her. If the Pastor was healed because of the faith of the people, why did the faith of the very same people not heal his wife?"
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Yesterday our Pastor was talking about God healed the lame man through Peter, but he said that man was at his highest point of health the moment of the healing for from that moment on his body would began to fall apart. Why? Because as long as we are on earth we will live in corruptible bodies, until God gives us a glorified body. Nowhere in the Bible did God give anyone incorruptible body on this earth. Every person Jesus healed eventually died. The healing was NOT permanent. The problem comes from World of Faith people who teach people like you that we will all be healed. When it doesn’t happen, then the Church does not have an answer so they blame the victim. It is the person’s fault because they are not healed. Then you are taking the miracle of God away from God and giving credit to the person healed. Then you might as well say: “What wonderful faith John, has, he healed himself with his faith!” As I have said before, when I was 5 I had already developed an attention problem. But, back then they had never heard of it, so my family dragged me to every healing service to be healed. I saw some people that were healed and some were not. I was not. Of course you would blame a 5 year old for not having enough faith, BA, would say it was because I was a lazy Christian, the only one right person, would have been the person last year that said I was not heal because I was a sinner because I had not gotten saved until 7. But, Jesus healed a child in the Bible He never saw face to face. I honestly do not know why our Pastor was healed and his wife was not. You in fact do not know why I have not been healed. But, that does not stop you from judging me for my lack of healing. Your words are painful and cut to the core. Unlike you I believe healing comes from God. Just as he turned the water into wine, I believe He heals who He wants to. I also think that He will have something to say about people like you who seek to destroy the wounded. As the Evangelist said last week: He has to deal with people like you all the time, who blame his child because his child was born with an aliment that has made her handicapped. He said God will punish those who seek to destroy those who have diseases and sickness that God, has allowed them for His own reason to endure.
betty
We hear or see of babies born with birth defects or inherited diseases all the time. My husband has a 22 year old son who is severely mentally retarded and has bi-polar. Babies who die with cancer that are only 1 or 2 years old, and so many people that are sick and suffer greatly.
Believe me I have compassion as much as the next person and probably more than many people.
So I seek answers to the sufferings, maybe it's wrong to seek these deep things, but I do.
Medically we have some answers such as genes and inheritance or illness from chemicals or radiation or pesticides, or pollution, etc etc,etc.
We all agree innocent people suffer.
But illnesses also have a spiritual component to them, and this has been acknowledged for ages.
The Old Testament talks about curses that go to the 10th generation or various generations due to certain sins. Perhaps the pastor's wife inherited this through her family line. There are many spiritual things that we don't even know about that get passed down through generations.
That's why the disciples asked Jesus that question about the man blind from birth. The Jews were aware of these generational curses.
Jesus told them that this was NOT the case for that man, so I agree that many are sick from birth through no fault of their parents or family line.
But the majority of people Jesus healed in the Gospels didn't seem to be in that catagory.
Jesus always remarked on their faith as being the reason He healed them, and by their faith he forgave them their sins at the same time.
Jesus states He healed to prove that He has the power to forgive sins.
As Christians we can pray for God to break the family curses on us, as Jesus states we can bind or loose.
Betty, you will learn so much more by studying the Bible yourself, and I know you do, but you are just giving me quotes of what your pastor said.
Don't take what any person says, always go to the source yourself. Nothing against your pastor. Don't believe me either. Get with the Lord and inquire of HIm.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
White Eagle,
Please explain why if healing is based on the faith of those praying whether they are healed or not, why one was healed and one was not when the same people were praying.
"My Pastor in Houston back about 30 years ago was diagnosed with inoperable cancer. The doctors said he would die. The Church, him and his wife prayed and God healed him. He is still pasturing a Church at age 78. His wife inherited MD. She has it and so does one of her daughter. The same group of people prayed for her. If the Pastor was healed because of the faith of the people, why did the faith of the very same people not heal his wife?"
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Yesterday our Pastor was talking about God healed the lame man through Peter, but he said that man was at his highest point of health the moment of the healing for from that moment on his body would began to fall apart. Why? Because as long as we are on earth we will live in corruptible bodies, until God gives us a glorified body. Nowhere in the Bible did God give anyone incorruptible body on this earth. Every person Jesus healed eventually died. The healing was NOT permanent. The problem comes from World of Faith people who teach people like you that we will all be healed. When it doesn’t happen, then the Church does not have an answer so they blame the victim. It is the person’s fault because they are not healed. Then you are taking the miracle of God away from God and giving credit to the person healed. Then you might as well say: “What wonderful faith John, has, he healed himself with his faith!” As I have said before, when I was 5 I had already developed an attention problem. But, back then they had never heard of it, so my family dragged me to every healing service to be healed. I saw some people that were healed and some were not. I was not. Of course you would blame a 5 year old for not having enough faith, BA, would say it was because I was a lazy Christian, the only one right person, would have been the person last year that said I was not heal because I was a sinner because I had not gotten saved until 7. But, Jesus healed a child in the Bible He never saw face to face. I honestly do not know why our Pastor was healed and his wife was not. You in fact do not know why I have not been healed. But, that does not stop you from judging me for my lack of healing. Your words are painful and cut to the core. Unlike you I believe healing comes from God. Just as he turned the water into wine, I believe He heals who He wants to. I also think that He will have something to say about people like you who seek to destroy the wounded. As the Evangelist said last week: He has to deal with people like you all the time, who blame his child because his child was born with an aliment that has made her handicapped. He said God will punish those who seek to destroy those who have diseases and sickness that God, has allowed them for His own reason to endure.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
This is interesting. I want to thank you for sharing this because it wasinteresting to see what we think differently about that colors our thoughts in other areas. I really enjoyed this comparison. Please know that I am not saying I have the handle on all this. This is just my current understanding in comparison to what you have shared; I remain a work in progress:
quote:
I think you are saying that our flesh belongs to satan? due to sin?
Belongs to Satan? No!
The earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof!
1 Corintians 15: 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
However: The earth was cursed for man's sake. And the serpent was sentenced to eat the dust of the earth all the day of his life:
Genesis 3:14 ........and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Genesis 3:19 ............for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Our flesh is dishonoured:Sown in dishonour; sown in corruption; we are delivered from it..
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
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So our flesh is evil, and that we can't get redeemed until we die?
Sin is in our flesh and that sin is evil. It is condemened..........
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
I believe that we have as a result of our re-birth spiritual bodies that will be redeemed when this one is sown in corruption.
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are redeemed NOW, from bondage to sin in the flesh. From Satan's dominion over our living soul, which can now walk in the spirit, following the mind of Christ, we await the manifestation of our adoption, the redemption of our spiritual bodies from this earthly dwelling place - the body of death where sin dwells.
I see it this way:
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God created us in His image.
God created Adam (mankind)in HIS image. The children of Adam were pro-created, born, begotten in the image of Adam: Genesis 5:3
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Sin entered in through Adam and Eve
Not Adam and Eve... ONE man Adam. Sin is passed from the father to the children..
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
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We became corrupted in the flesh and now all of us are born with a sin nature called the flesh.
Sin nature is a "man's" word. Sin nature is not in the Bible. I would say that we are naturally born with sin in our flesh, when we are born in the flesh. We are born to our earthly parents with a human earthy nature and our image is one of sinful flesh. I see that we are living souls that God has covered in flesh and skin; as Adam and Eve were covered in skins and I see that sin does dwell in our flesh. Thus we all HAVE sin from birth.
Job 10:11 Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and hast fenced me with bones and sinews.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
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Satan does not own us, or our flesh we do.
Here we disagree. Satan does not own us;correct; all souls are God's. The scripture was given above.
However, Satan has been given authority over the flesh of men through sin in the flesh. We are sold under sin to Satan's authority or dominion as he is the god of this world and our mortal bodies are OF this world.
This is his territory given by God to him to roam about. For those who are re-born; begotten again by God, Satan has no dominion because they are not earthy, but are spiritual and Satan has no dominion over the spiritual. But when we walk in the flesh and not the spirit, then he has dominion, as we give it over to him.
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Humans have choice.
This is too broad for me to know what you think that we have a choice over. I see that we who are born again have a choice and that choice is to walk in the flesh or in the spirit. I see that the unregenerated man has no choice but to walk in the flesh. I believe that the very first grace that God extends to man is the grace that allows him to repent of sin and believe God, but that without that grace being given by God man in his natural state, would be unable to chose God.
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Satan gains ground on people when we do sin, and we suffer from the sins of others to us.
hmmm. I am not sure I understand "gains ground" Satan has dominion over the flesh of man as man is servant to sin. In the born again man, Satan has no authority because he is heavenly creature not an earthy one, but when man choses to walk in the flesh and mind the things of the flesh, then man delivers himself over to the one that has dominion over things earthly... Where the mind goes the body follows. Sow to the flesh reap the flesh etc. So, for the born again, Satan has no power as long as we remain in the spirit. But sin is still present in the mortal body and continues to work corruption until the day our spirit separates from the mortal body in what we call death. We have not gained power over the flesh by the blood, but we have gained freedom from the power of sin in the flesh over us as we are NEW heavenly creatures not subject to the god of this world or sin in the flesh.
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We die to self, and the die to the flesh daily meaning we take ourselves off the throne of our heart and put God on that Throne.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
I believe that my body is dead now; I wait the full manifestation of that which will come when sin in it is finished destroying it; at that time my spirit and soul will be with God in its spiritual body.
While I live in this dead body, my life is HID in Christ. This is why I say to you if the body is sick I am well; if the body is in health I am well.
As I live this life HID in Christ and Christ lives in me; I am learning to die; I am learning to sanctify God in my heart and in doing that my dead body is presented to HIM as a living sacrifice. I would say that this is equal to your "taking ourselves off the throne of our heart" As, God is sanctified in our hearts, the deeds of the body are mortified (killed); the deeds done in the body become HIS deeds,not ours because we ceased from our own works.
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We are sealed until the day of redemption. We are redeemed by the Blood now.
Yes, this is what the scripture says; the sealing of the spirit is the declaration that we are HIS. I believe that it is visbale to the unseen realm. Yes, indeed we are redeemed now. We are now on the earth as he is in heaven the scriptrue says. We are new creatures. Spirit born creatures. We are not what we were. I believe that this is literal. I believe that in this mortal shell, we are a new creature, spiritual Body, and Spirit being. Again, it is this very thing that makes me to believe that healing of the mortal body is really immaterial to the church. If our mortal body is ill, we are well; If our mortal body is well, we are well. To live is Christ, to die gain. We are at peace, in JOY, complete, whole, seated with HIM in the heavenlies, citizens of heaven, NOW regardless of the place or condition of the mortal body. We are not mortal bodies. We have mortal bodies. We living souls who have become spirit creatures and reside temporarily in earthen vessels.
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Healing is past present and future tenses.
Yes, I agree. What I dont agree with is that our mortal bodies are guaranteed healing from sickness and disease in this life of linear time and space. This body is meant to corrupt. I on the otherhand am now as we speak healed of all things that have ever opressed me or will ever oppress me. I am not a mortal BODY I have one. And Mortal means it is subject to corruption.
We the church have something that no other humans before us or any humans after us will ever have and that is ONEness with Christ - We are HIS body and I dont care how much cancer your mortal body possesses, Christ does not have cancer. We are from above. Born of GOD. We have everlasting life now - this mortal body does not and is not ever going to inherit everlasting life... that is not for the flesh and blood of Mortal bodies.
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God never intended that our flesh be sinful, that was not his will.
Do you think that Adam before the fall looked like you and me and Jesus? I dont. We are told that Jesus came in the image of sinful flesh.
Adam died. Men teach that Adam died spiritually, but I challenge you to find that in the Bible. Adam died. God said Adam would die and I believe that what God said happened. Adam died.
I believe that Adam left the garden looking very different than the Adam who was created in the image of God. I dont believe that the image of God is the image of sinful flesh. I believe that the image of God is the express image of the risen Christ.
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
I believe that God puposed us to be conformed to the image of Christ from the foundation. I believe that man was created with full knowledge that he would sin and that in his sinning; he would die; God would redeem him and God would become God all in all. I believe that man was created as part of God's plan to destroy evil and bring Satan to just judgement and become God all in all.
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God created us and saw that it was good. God created us to be His children and He hates the sin that corrupted our flesh and made a provision to save us.
I dont see our redemption as a reaction on the part of God to man's sin. I see our redemption as the plan from the beginning. Christ was manifest to destroy the works of the devil and we are begat by HIS spirit to be conformed into HIS image.
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God doesn't hate our human forms. He created us.
God does want us to be healed here and now.
God heals our mortal bodies as it serves his purpose. God allows our bodies to suffer corruption as it serves HIS purpose.
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We are the ones who have to die to self daily, and since we do it daily, I don't think Paul meant we commit suicide every day to destroy our own flesh.
You lost me here. Sorry. Yes we die daily, by giving our bodies as living sacrifice, surrendered to HIS will.
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It's a spiritual discipline that come only through the power of Christ. We are being changed by the renewing of our minds. When the mind is healed the body can be healed, both are connected, God made us that way.
There is a mind of the flesh and a mind of the Spirit. When the mind is renewed, we demonstrate the perfect will of God and that will is that we are conformed to the image of Christ. Christ's image is not now the image of sinful flesh or mortal bodies. When the mind is renewed we understand that we are well and have peace, joy and power in the Holy Ghost no matter the condition, state, or place of our mortal bodies.
I dont understand the term "spiritual discipline"
Please know that I am NOT denying that God heals!!! I know that God heals. What I am denying is that healing of this mortal body in this life is guaranteed to us by the blood. That is not true. He heals the mortal bodies of whom HE wills,when He wills, as it serves HIS specific purpose.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
God may not heal everyone, that is up to the Lord.
It doesn't indicate that that person is a bad Christian if they are chronically sick,
Now I agree with this. God said HE will have mercy on whom HE will have mercy. God chose Not to heal Paul, but to cause Paul to rely on HIS (God's) Grace as being sufficient.
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
but it does mean that Satan has a hold in their life somehow that can be broken.
In Some cases this may be true, but it isn't true of all as we saw from the account of the Blind (from birth) man whom Jesus healed and told HIS disciples that this mans blindness wasn't due to anyones sin... Now, this is what Jesus said. Even if it were only this one case, it still goes to prove that not all illness is due to sin. Which is, and which isn't is not something we can judge in anothers life. That has to be between them and the Lord.
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
They may not recover physcially or they may, but they can certainly know the peace of God.
Again, I agree with this. We are to be Content in all circumstances. We also must be mindful of how our words will affect others. Although I don't believe in the WOF "Positive Confession" as they teach, I do believe that our words can cause great harm to others (or bring great blessings to them). If we tell someone that their illness is due to some unconfessed sin (and how would we possibily know this of another?), and in reality it isn't (only God knows this for sure), then we've done our brother or sister harm. Especially if we've caused them to grieve over our words.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Betty
You are employing what is known as a "guilt trip" on me. I'm not guilty. It won't work.
Sister Betty is Not trying to give you a 'guilt trip' as you claim... she was trying to tell you that things you had said to her had HURT her.
If she had said that to me, I wouldn't hesitate to apologize to her. Why are you being so unkind in some of your replies here?
I imagine that many of the Pharisee thought Jesus was unkind to them and needed to apoligize.
I'm a very compassionate person. I'm telling the good news of the gospel.
Many denominations keep their flock in the dark about the Power of God.
They have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.
They don't recognize demonic oppresion and they can't help or guide those who suffer from it.
God may not heal everyone, that is up to the Lord.
It doesn't indicate that that person is a bad Christian if they are chronically sick, but it does mean that Satan has a hold in their life somehow that can be broken. They may not recover physcially or they may, but they can certainly know the peace of God.
I also truly believe it is God's will that all people who come to him be healed. Trouble is we have so many issues within ourselves to even get that close to God. We lack faith, we are crippled by false beliefs, and many other things.
It's only Christ in you the hope of glory.
I've given out the good news, and if some can't receive it, then that's their problem.
Believe me, I used to be there, and not be able to believe that God would actually heal me or help me. One needs to keep seeking and keep searching and don't give up.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QB
God allowed Satan to bring sickness upon Job for God's purpose! That was the point. Yes, no one is denying that it was Satan that brought the sickness. It is SIN that brings corruption of any kind to the body... sin that indwells the flesh. That is why the flesh dies!
But can you not see that it is the will of God that the flesh die? How do you think that sin is destroyed? It praise GOD by the power of the Blood turns to dust to become serpent food. The devil destroys his own house...and when this body is finally sown in corruption, when sin is FINISHED in this flesh, and our spirit separates from it, we are redeemed... our spiritual bodies are brought forth.
Our flesh is meant to last us just as long as God ordains us to be here. It is of the world and we will leave it here to return to dust and the sin that was in it too.
If God heals it from an illness it is for HIS glory; If God allows it to die from the illness it is for HIS glory!
![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif) [/QB][/QUOTE]
I think you are saying that our flesh belongs to satan? due to sin? So our flesh is evil, and that we can't get redeemed until we die? I'm not quite following your theology as it's certainly looking at things differently than I do.
I see it this way:
God created us in His image.
Sin entered in through Adam and Eve
We became corrupted in the flesh and now all of us are born with a sin nature called the flesh. Satan does not own us, or our flesh we do.
Humans have choice. Satan gains ground on people when we do sin, and we suffer from the sins of others to us.
We die to self, and the die to the flesh daily meaning we take ourselves off the throne of our heart and put God on that Throne.
We are sealed until the day of redemption. We are redeemed by the Blood now. Healing is past present and future tenses.
God never intended that our flesh be sinful, that was not his will. God created us and saw that it was good. God created us to be His children and He hates the sin that corrupted our flesh and made a provision to save us.
God doesn't hate our human forms. He created us.
God does want us to be healed here and now.
We are the ones who have to die to self daily, and since we do it daily, I don't think Paul meant we commit suicide every day to destroy our own flesh.
It's a spiritual discipline that come only through the power of Christ. We are being changed by the renewing of our minds. When the mind is healed the body can be healed, both are connected, God made us that way.
Anyway I don't think you are into Gnostism ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I use the KJV - the words that underlie the KJV are what I posted. ????
I am not disagreeing with your understanding. I aggree; but the word griefs in verse 4 is not the same word as is translated griefs in verse 10, though the word in verse 4 is the root. The way it is conjegated in verse 10 shows that it was God that laid this upon HIM as Hiphil shows cause (HE)(caused).
I just dont think that it is fair to the discussion or to WhiteEagle to try and say this word is not sickness it is sickness in the Hebrew language in which God gave the scripture to Isaiah.
Verse 4 = 02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Verse 10 = 02470 hlx chalah khaw-law’ (1) to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry
1f) (Hiphil)
1f1) to make sore
1f2) to make sick
1f3) to show signs of sickness, become sick
1f4) to grieve
You are a very smart person. This "grief" of ver. 4 should not be taught as sickness IMHO. It misdirects the direction of thought. Not all with sickness grieve and not all that grieve get sick -- to which is a soul truly vexed?
To which if fixed would do the eternal good?
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
I use the KJV - the words that underlie the KJV are what I posted. ????
I am not disagreeing with your understanding. I aggree; but the word griefs in verse 4 is not the same word as is translated griefs in verse 10, though the word in verse 4 is the root. The way it is conjegated in verse 10 shows that it was God that laid this upon HIM as Hiphil shows cause (HE)(caused).
I just dont think that it is fair to the discussion or to WhiteEagle to try and say this word is not sickness it is sickness in the Hebrew language in which God gave the scripture to Isaiah.
Verse 4 = 02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Verse 10 = 02470 hlx chalah khaw-law’ (1) to be or become weak, be or become sick, be or become diseased, be or become grieved, be or become sorry
1f) (Hiphil)
1f1) to make sore
1f2) to make sick
1f3) to show signs of sickness, become sick
1f4) to grieve
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I understand that Bro, but the word translated griefs in the KJV in this text is:
02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
I will stick with the KJV. Because its focus is more to He was "smitten of God", and afflicted not phyiscal healing. The prophet was so afraid that you and I would miss this that he mentioned it three times:"The Lord hath laid on him the iniiquity of us all." "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruse him." "He hath put him to grief." Consternation fills our souls when we recognize that it was God the Father who treated the perfect Man in such a terrible fashion.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
I understand that Bro, but the word translated griefs in the KJV in this text is:
02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
grief (grēf) pronunciation
n.
1. Deep mental anguish, as that arising from bereavement. See synonyms at regret.
2. A source of deep mental anguish.
3. Annoyance or frustration: Trying to follow their directions was nothing but grief.
4. Trouble or difficulty: the griefs of trying to meet a deadline.
5. Archaic. A grievance.
Bible, King James Version
"grief" matches.
Gen.26
1. [35] Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.
1Sam.1
1. [16] Count not thine handmaid for a daughter of Belial: for out of the abundance of my complaint and grief have I spoken hitherto.
1Sam.25
1. [31] That this shall be no grief unto thee, nor offence of heart unto my lord, either that thou hast shed blood causeless, or that my lord hath avenged himself: but when the LORD shall have dealt well with my lord, then remember thine handmaid.
2Chr.6
1. [29] Then what prayer or what supplication soever shall be made of any man, or of all thy people Israel, when every one shall know his own sore and his own grief, and shall spread forth his hands in this house:
Job.2
1. [13] So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great.
Job.6
1. [2] Oh that my grief were throughly weighed, and my calamity laid in the balances together!
Job.16
1. [5] But I would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should asswage your grief.
2. [6] Though I speak, my grief is not asswaged: and though I forbear, what am I eased?
Pss.6
1. [7] Mine eye is consumed because of grief; it waxeth old because of all mine enemies.
Pss.31
1. [9] Have mercy upon me, O LORD, for I am in trouble: mine eye is consumed with grief, yea, my soul and my belly.
2. [10] For my life is spent with grief, and my years with sighing: my strength faileth because of mine iniquity, and my bones are consumed.
Pss.69
1. [26] For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
Prov.17
1. [25] A foolish son is a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.
Qoh.1
1. [18] For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
Qoh.2
1. [23] For all his days are sorrows, and his travail grief; yea, his heart taketh not rest in the night. This is also vanity.
Isa.17
1. [11] In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.
Isa.53
1. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
2. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
3. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Jer.6
1. [7] As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief and wounds.
Jer.10
1. [19] Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief, and I must bear it.
Jer.45
1. [3] Thou didst say, Woe is me now! for the LORD hath added grief to my sorrow; I fainted in my sighing, and I find no rest.
Lam.3
1. [32] But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Jonah.4
1. [6] And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
1Mac.6
1. [8] Now when the king heard these words, he was astonished and sore moved: whereupon he laid him down upon his bed, and fell sick for grief, because it had not befallen him as he looked for.
2. [9] And there he continued many days: for his grief was ever more and more, and he made account that he should die.
3. [13] I perceive therefore that for this cause these troubles are come upon me, and, behold, I perish through great grief in a strange land.
2Cor.2
1. [5] But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
Heb.13
1. [17] Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
1Pet.2
1. [19] For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
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That is all.....
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
quote:
Nice try. So how did you change the word "griefs" into "sickness"..
02483 ylx choliy khol-ee’
from 02470; n m; {See TWOT on 655 @@ ‘655a’}
AV-sickness 12, disease 7, grief 4, sick 1; 24
1) sickness
Deuteronomy 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness <02483>, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
Deuteronomy 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses <02483>, and of long continuance.
Deuteronomy 28:61 Also every sickness <02483>, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
1 Kings 17:17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness <02483> was so sore, that there was no breath left in him.
2 Kings 1:2 And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, enquire of Baalzebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease <02483>.
2 Kings 8:8 And the king said unto Hazael, Take a present in thine hand, and go, meet the man of God, and enquire of the LORD by him, saying, Shall I recover of this disease <02483>?
2 Kings 8:9 So Hazael went to meet him, and took a present with him, even of every good thing of Damascus, forty camels’ burden, and came and stood before him, and said, Thy son Benhadad king of Syria hath sent me to thee, saying, Shall I recover of this disease <02483>?
2 Kings 13:14 Now Elisha was fallen sick of his sickness <02483> whereof he died. And Joash the king of Israel came down unto him, and wept over his face, and said, O my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof.
2 Chronicles 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease <02483> was exceeding great: yet in his disease <02483> he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.
2 Chronicles 21:15 And thou shalt have great sickness <02483> by disease of thy bowels, until thy bowels fall out by reason of the sickness <02483> day by day.
2 Chronicles 21:18 And after all this the LORD smote him in his bowels with an incurable disease <02483>.
2 Chronicles 21:19 And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness <02483>: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers.
Psalms 41:3 The LORD will strengthen him upon the bed of languishing: thou wilt make all his bed in his sickness <02483>.
Ecclesiastes 5:17 All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he hath much sorrow and wrath with his sickness <02483>.
Ecclesiastes 6:2 A man to whom God hath given riches, wealth, and honour, so that he wanteth nothing for his soul of all that he desireth, yet God giveth him not power to eat thereof, but a stranger eateth it: this is vanity, and it is an evil disease <02483>.
Isaiah 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick <02483>, and the whole heart faint.
Isaiah 38:9 The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness <02483>:
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief <02483>: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs <02483>, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Jeremiah 6:7 As a fountain casteth out her waters, so she casteth out her wickedness: violence and spoil is heard in her; before me continually is grief <02483> and wounds.
Jeremiah 10:19 Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous: but I said, Truly this is a grief <02483>, and I must bear it.
Hosea 5:13 When Ephraim saw his sickness <02483>, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
*************************************************
He did bear their sickness and their pain and soprrow. Deliverance is the Children's bread. That does not change anything for the church if the word is rightly divided and the text... With His stripes we are healed is not taken out of CONTEXT.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
1 ¶ Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
My Pastor in Houston back about 30 years ago was diagnosed with inoperable cancer. The doctors said he would die. The Church, him and his wife prayed and God healed him. He is still pastoring a Church at age 78. His wife inherited MD. She has it and so does one of her daughter. The same group of people prayed for her. If the Pastor was healed because of the faith of the people, why did the faith of the very same people not heal his wife?
White Eagle I could care less whether you feel guilty or not. I talked to my Preacher’s wife here in Washington today about what has been said here about me. She said that I should try to forgive people like you who speak in ignorance. I am going to work on that.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
WhiteEagle:
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not when you defend false teaching. Not when you take God's Word out of its proper context.
Who says???? Who is the Authority that says I took God's Word out of it's "proper contextt"?
I mean get a grip. By whose authority are you quoting this claptrap. Is it from some denominatinal doctrine? What?
Do I have to write all of Isaiah chapter 53?
READ IT!
Isaiah 53: 4-6
"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; and we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities: punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds. We all went astray like sheep; we all have turned to our own way; and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all."
Christ had to be punished and die for our sins.
When he did this it healed our sickness, and it gave us peace by his wounds, and this part of the whole total redemptive plan.
To deny His healing, is to deny Christ's work on the cross.
I don't want to hear any more of taking something out of context unless you have proof from the Word of God.
Nice try. So how did you change the word "griefs" into "sickness"..
Consider yourself set aside.
Tit.3
[10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
[11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
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That is all.....
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
quote:
If you read your own post with this reference to Job, it's very obvious that it's Satan who caused Job to be sick.
God allowed it. God is Sovereign.
You showed by the Bible that it is Satan who wants us to be sick, NOT God.
God allowed Satan to bring sickness upon Job for God's purpose! That was the point. Yes, no one is denying that it was Satan that brought the sickness. It is SIN that brings corruption of any kind to the body... sin that indwells the flesh. That is why the flesh dies!
But can you not see that it is the will of God that the flesh die? How do you think that sin is destroyed? It praise GOD by the power of the Blood turns to dust to become serpent food. The devil destroys his own house...and when this body is finally sown in corruption, when sin is FINISHED in this flesh, and our spirit separates from it, we are redeemed... our spiritual bodies are brought forth.
Our flesh is meant to last us just as long as God ordains us to be here. It is of the world and we will leave it here to return to dust and the sin that was in it too.
If God heals it from an illness it is for HIS glory; If God allows it to die from the illness it is for HIS glory!
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Betty
You are employing what is known as a "guilt trip" on me. I'm not guilty. It won't work.
Sister Betty is Not trying to give you a 'guilt trip' as you claim... she was trying to tell you that things you had said to her had HURT her.
If she had said that to me, I wouldn't hesitate to apologize to her. Why are you being so unkind in some of your replies here?
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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SoftTouch
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posted
John 13:33-35 (KJV) 34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. ~Jesus
1 Peter 4:8-11 (NKJV) And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."
Romans 12:9-13 (NKJV) Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
1 Corinthians 13:5-7 (NKJV) does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Galatians 6:10 (NKJV) Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
Philippians 2:3 (NKJV) Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Matthew 25:40 (NKJV) "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
Galatians 5:15 (NKJV) But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
WhiteEagle:
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not when you defend false teaching. Not when you take God's Word out of its proper context.
Who says???? Who is the Authority that says I took God's Word out of it's "proper contextt"?
I mean get a grip. By whose authority are you quoting this claptrap. Is it from some denominatinal doctrine? What?
Do I have to write all of Isaiah chapter 53?
READ IT!
Isaiah 53: 4-6
"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses, and He carried our pains; and we in turn regarded Him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. But He was pierced because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities: punishment for our peace was on Him, and we are healed by His wounds. We all went astray like sheep; we all have turned to our own way; and the Lord has punished Him for the iniquity of us all."
Christ had to be punished and die for our sins.
When he did this it healed our sickness, and it gave us peace by his wounds, and this part of the whole total redemptive plan.
To deny His healing, is to deny Christ's work on the cross.
I don't want to hear any more of taking something out of context unless you have proof from the Word of God.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
WhiteEagle:
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Not when you defend false teaching. Not when you take God's Word out of its proper context.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
White Eagle,
I have stayed away this week, simply because I needed to heal from the wounds given to me, by fellow Christians who judge me for being ill. God has given me the reason why He has chosen to allow me not to be healed on this earth and that is between Him and me.
I can assure you it is not because I am a sinner, a lazy Christian or because I lack faith.
I am curious about this remark you made
“So why shouldn't we fight against illness. Our bodies are fighting it with our immune systems. We should be fighting it mentally, physically and especially spiritually.”
If healing is a miracle from God then why should we be fighting to get healing? If healing is us fighting through is then half the miracle done by us? Name one time when Jesus required the person He was healing to fight through to receive the miracle from Him.
I think it would be good for everyone to have to walk in the shoes of a crippled person for one day. But, that is not possible. I have dealt with some rude people since I became ill. Once, a man knocked me out of the elevator when I was using crutches so he could get ahead of me, to sign in at the doctor’s office. Once at Sears, I was using a wheel chair when a stranger picked up the chair with me and moved me out of the way without a word. I was offended. But, I never expected to be treated rudely at a Christian site by other Christens.
Contrary to BA, I did work for God before I became ill and not only that but hubby and I worked for 5 years volunteers at a ministry when I would have to take pain pills in order to handle the pain.
One day God will explain to you all what damage you have done to handicapped Christens by your rude and insensitive comments.
For now, well, I am leaving you in God’s hands.
betty
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Soft Touch and Drew,
I pray that God will bless you both for standing up for those like me, who cannot always stand up for ourselves.
betty
Betty
You are employing what is known as a "guilt trip" on me. I'm not guilty. It won't work.
"let it be unto you according to your faith."
Truth is truth and I've been speaking truth.
God loves you.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"
Please tell me where in the Bible it states that God wants us to be sick.
Where?"
[4] And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
[5] But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[6] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
[7] So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
from the text http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2083576
Stop your sillyness.
If you read your own post with this reference to Job, it's very obvious that it's Satan who caused Job to be sick.
God allowed it. God is Sovereign.
You showed by the Bible that it is Satan who wants us to be sick, NOT God.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
White Eagle,
I have stayed away this week, simply because I needed to heal from the wounds given to me, by fellow Christians who judge me for being ill. God has given me the reason why He has chosen to allow me not to be healed on this earth and that is between Him and me.
I can assure you it is not because I am a sinner, a lazy Christian or because I lack faith.
I am curious about this remark you made
“So why shouldn't we fight against illness. Our bodies are fighting it with our immune systems. We should be fighting it mentally, physically and especially spiritually.”
If healing is a miracle from God then why should we be fighting to get healing? If healing is us fighting through is then half the miracle done by us? Name one time when Jesus required the person He was healing to fight through to receive the miracle from Him.
I think it would be good for everyone to have to walk in the shoes of a crippled person for one day. But, that is not possible. I have dealt with some rude people since I became ill. Once, a man knocked me out of the elevator when I was using crutches so he could get ahead of me, to sign in at the doctor’s office. Once at Sears, I was using a wheel chair when a stranger picked up the chair with me and moved me out of the way without a word. I was offended. But, I never expected to be treated rudely at a Christian site by other Christens.
Contrary to BA, I did work for God before I became ill and not only that but hubby and I worked for 5 years volunteers at a ministry when I would have to take pain pills in order to handle the pain.
One day God will explain to you all what damage you have done to handicapped Christens by your rude and insensitive comments.
For now, well, I am leaving you in God’s hands.
betty
---------------
Soft Touch and Drew,
I pray that God will bless you both for standing up for those like me, who cannot always stand up for ourselves.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
John 9
1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
"
Please tell me where in the Bible it states that God wants us to be sick.
Where?"
[4] And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
[5] But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[6] And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
[7] So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
from the text http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV2&byte=2083576
Stop your sillyness.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
There's a lot of contradictions in your post above Linda.
You wonder where in the Bible it says for us to fight our illnesses?
Our body is a temple. We are to treat it right, and I'm sure you are against excesses of food, drink, or drug use that harms the body.
So why shouldn't we fight against illness. Our bodies are fighting it with our immune systems. We should be fighting it mentally, physcially and especially spiritually.
I'm trying to make application to us living spiritually in a body of death, that is more than just saying I already live in the heavenly realm.
Spiritually we are in the heavenly realm and seated with Christ and He has endowed us with His Authority. He said his disciples would do greater things then He as He now is with the Father.
Since we as believers are in the heavenly realm, we are in the midst of a spritual battle.
I don't follow the WOF teachers, I believe what the Bible actually says, and don't add Baptist, Mehtodist, or any other "thist" doctrines to the Bible.
We can only walk in the truth we are able to see.
By his stripes we are healed... is part of the whole of redemption.
Many will have to wait until they are dead to see healing. I'm not preaching that all Christians should or will or are going to be healed. I'm trying to tell people that they can have hope of healing, in ways they never realized before if they can just really grab onto what the Gospels say.
Many Christians can be healed and that's the message. I never said all.
Please tell me where in the Bible it states that God wants us to be sick.
Where?
It's not His will that we are sick, He may end up using it for our good, or someone else's good, but it's not God's desire that any of us be sick or ill.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
Awesome exposition Sister Linda.
God bless you Sis!
Amen Brother Bill!
With the Word alive in our heart and walk with our Lord, we can persevere in the face of persecution, disease, infirmity, with our faith intact and unshaken. How many are walking wounded from the WOF, because they have been taught that their faith was insufficient because they did not their healing, or a multitude of dollars for their sacrificial donations?
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:WildB is pooh-poohing any kind of healing from what I read of his/hers posts.
I didnt get that from his posts; Surely WildB knows that healing occcurs else everyone who ever got sick would die from the sickness! WildB may be of the belief that the signs and wonders miracles and gifts have ceased I do not know; but this did not begin a discussion on healing it began a discussion on the misapplication of 2Peter and Isaiah and whether you believe in healing or you dont you have to wrest those scriptures out of context to apply them to speak to the healing of physical disease such as AIDs or Diabetes, or the common cold. That is not an argument against healing it is an argument aginst wresting scripture out of context!!!
~
I am a male with a womans heart, but a Patriot in Christ when one trys to dull the Sword of the Spirit.
To use the scriptures of topic for a fleashly desire and teach it to others, is in fact passing out dull swords that will cause a great sadness when the real battle starts.
Prov.27
[17] Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
AMEN Brother Drew and Sister Linda, AMEN
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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Those things blew me away too and surprised me coming from you white eagle!
Honestly, if I had to assess or evaluate our disagreeing on the things that we disagree on, I would say that I dont spiritualize the scriptures enough for you and you spiritualize them too much for me.
I think that it is very presumptuous of you to think that I dont spiritualize them at all or that I dont know them in my heart because I disgree with you.
I actually probably disagree with you a lot less than you think.
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WildB is pooh-poohing any kind of healing from what I read of his/hers posts.
I didnt get that from his posts; Surely WildB knows that healing occcurs else everyone who ever got sick would die from the sickness! WildB may be of the belief that the signs and wonders miracles and gifts have ceased I do not know; but this did not begin a discussion on healing it began a discussion on the misapplication of 2Peter and Isaiah and whether you believe in healing or you dont you have to wrest those scriptures out of context to apply them to speak to the healing of physical disease such as AIDs or Diabetes, or the common cold. That is not an argument against healing it is an argument aginst wresting scripture out of context!!!
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What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
This above is another unbelievable statement to me! What a foolish thing to say White Eagle you really surprised me with this one too! I realize that completely. In fact it is because I realize this that I disagree with you. This BODY IS THE HOME TO SIN AND WILL DIE BECAUSE OF IT. Sin LIVES in your mortal body and in mine!!! The blood did not remove the sin from our members! It allowed us to be begotten again... NEW CREATURES residing in this BODY with sin and yet it has no power over us for we are not our bodies. I could just as well say to you that YOU White Eagle do not understand the NEW CREATURE! Our mortal bodies are meant to become serpent food! Dust from which they came - thus the works of the devil (sin in the flesh) are destroyed upon our death and we (the NEW creature) are freed from this body of death.
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I wont say that to you; because I have no idea what you understand or what you do not.
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So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come. The two go hand in hand with repentance.
Sin and death are conquered NOW; that is why YOU will not follow your mortal flesh to the grave. If it were as you say rather than as I say then you would not die at all. Your body is healed now then it will not degenerate, get old, corrupt. You cant have it both ways. Either your body is mortal and sin lives in it or it is dying and subject to illness.
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With redemption comes healing,it's the natural outpouring of the blessing.
That's why missionaries see miracles. Those people in underdeveloped countries haven't been indoctrinated against healings. Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.
John 9:1 ¶ And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
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You say that one day, after we die on earth and go to heaven then we all will be healed, so that kind of gives credence to my statement you thought was ridiculous.
No, I am saying that all things are manifest in thier proper time. I am saying that The healing that was wrought by HIS stripes is not manifest in the mortal Body, but in the Spiritual one. I am saying that all the examples that you give to support your views of "we are healed by his stripes" are all examples of healing that occured before his stripes!!!
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I'm not saying that one has to cough up enough Faith on their own, because they can't, do it.
Jesus is the Author of our faith. We go to Him and touch the Hem of His garment spiritually and ask Him to help our unbelief. He is the Source.
None of us can ever cough up enough faith in our own power.
Honestly, I know you well enough to know that you are not. Sadly, however this is the end to which this misuse of these scriptures is taken by many and that is why I said those things..... not to you specifically or personally.
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What many Christian lack is knowledge about the things that Paul and Peter and the Gospels talk about in the spirit.
It is ironic because I also agree with this and one of the ways in which I see this is that many christians live this life from earth. This life is lived from above on earth. I do not know how else to say this. Many Christians are in bondage of one thing or another in this life because they try to live in the flesh. OUR OLD MAN IS DEAD. It is still with us. BUT HE is DEAD and we are supposed to be about learning to let him die. Instead we have today a hoard who would teach us how to keep him alive. Let him die and live in the SPirit. In the spirit, the flesh is irrelevant!
2 Corinthians 6:10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
Here we see Paul's friend and fellow worker, Ephroditis sick and healed.... because of his great faith? Because he is a born again believer? NO! Because God showed MERCY! Period!
Philippians 2:25 Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.
26 For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick.
27 For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
If our healing in this life is a guaranteed done deal because of HIS stripes and we need only to receive it then why did Paul leave Trophimus sick rather than healing him?
2 Timothy 4:20 Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.
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Yes a Christian can be chronically ill and still be a blessing and perhaps God is allowing it for His purposes, but most of the time or at least many times, Christians aren't a blessing when they are sick, as they cling to it as their thorn in the flesh when they need to be fighting it actively.
Boy, I have a lot of issues with this one. A Christian should be a blessing where ever he goes regardless of his condition because the Spirit of the Almighty God does indwell us and the fruit of HIS spirit in us is a blessing.
I realize that I am nit picking on semantics here, but I think that the semantics are significant.
Certainly, there are chronically ill christians that bless others daily in spite of their illness; this speaks to one's walking the walk in sickness and in health.
But I think that what you are speaking of is, God using illness to glorify himself. And to that I would say this:
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
ALL THIINGS ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL things! Period.
Can you show me in the scripture where it says that we are to actively fight sickness and how does one actively fight sickness?
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Thorn in the flesh is a doctine taught from one verse that Paul writes, and everyone lays claim to it.
I do not know how one clings to a thorn in the flesh. I am not sure that I understand your point here.
We do not know what was Paul's thorn in the flesh. We do know that it was something to be endured. It was not something that God would free him from and yet God did give Paul sufficient grace to live with it. We know that the thorn was a messenger of Satan, that God used to keep Paul from becoming too full of himself. Personally, I do not see a problem with having a thorn in the flesh that keeps you from being too full of yourself.
The way Paul dealt with this is I think consistent with understanding Romans 8:28. If this life is a bed of roses, then roses have thorns.... oh well. His grace is sufficient. Paul understood contentment in the HOLY GHOST, Resting in Christ come what may. He prayed and God said "No, Paul" and Paul said... not my will but yours, ok. If Paul believed as you do, he might have argued with God; He might have continued to ask after God said "No, Paul." He might have doubted his faith, or he might have doubted that God is still healing; or He might have insisted on his right to healing by the stripes of Christ until God gave him his desire and then he became all full of himself.
Paul dealth with his thorn scripturally. He prayed and then he accepted that his will was not God's will and his way was not God's way, but he wanted more what God willed and wanted, even though it was not comfortable or pretty or what might look like a blessing in the world's eye view of what blessing is.
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Yes we enter the promised land when we enter into the Spiritual Kingdom of God on earth when we Worship God and obey God and walk staightly and keep in repentance. That's what I mean about entering the Promise Land.
Yes ,we occupy our little space on earth for Christ. Sorry we're still a human being at this time and not dead yet.
Collosians 3:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,(Touch not; taste not; handle not Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
1 ¶ If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1 Corinthians 13:12 for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;
Who is it that we see when we look in a mirror? Who is it that we do not now see as we really are? What is it that we will know as we were known by GOD?
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
This is what Paul got that so many including those who constantly seek to spiritualize the written word do not get - the new creature is a spiritual creature. Illness of a physical body is immaterial to a spiritual creature.
1 Corintians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds;
40 and there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but one is the glory of the heavenly, and another that of the earthly;
41 one glory of sun, and another glory of moon, and another glory of stars, for star from star doth differ in glory.
42 So also is the rising again of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;
43 it is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
45 so also it hath been written, ‘The first man Adam became a living creature,’ the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit,
46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord out of heaven;
48 as is the earthy, such are also the earthy; and as is the heavenly, such are also the heavenly;
49 and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the [/b]image of the heavenly.
YOU bear NOW the NATURE of the heavenly though you await the image of the heavenly. NEW CREATURE!
Living here FROM above.
What is sickness in the flesh to someone who is born of God? It is nothing! Who cares! To live is Christ.... to die gain!
You acuse some of hating that which is spiritual and yet it is you that clings to the physical body. You may be human. I am a Child of the living God who is God of the Spirits and I occupy a human body. If it is sick and dying I am well; if it is healthy, I am well. Which of us hates things spiritual?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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WhiteEagle:
I can't help you if you don't believe the Bible.
The Bible doesn't promise that believers won't get sick. It does promise us healing, when we are sick.
Whoso ever is restored to God can not help but be healed.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
God healed those who wished to repent and look up.
He healed them so they could take the Promised Land.
God heals us so we can also take the Promised Land.
He said "occupy unitl I come."
Christ came and conquered sin and death and redeemed us back to Him.
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
If Adam and Eve had never sinned mankind would not be experiencing illness,or diseases.
With redemption comes healing,it's the natural outpouring of the blessing.
That's why missionaries see miracles. Those people in underdeveloped countries haven't been indoctrinated against healings. Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.
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The same compounding of errors of WOF, adding onto scripture and reaching a false and dangerous conclusion. One who blatantly connects a lack of healing with lack of faith, for example your statement, "Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.", thus declares that those who are not healed lack faith. This is a disservice and denigration of my beloved Brothers and Sisters who serve our Lord Jesus Christ while being crippled/sick/infirm. You have bought into error and false teaching.
Romans 8:
22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26: Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34: Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37: Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
A few examples from an interesting list which goes on and on and on, of those "elders" of the Word of Faith who have succomed to disease, have placed their followers at risk, who teach error:
ORAL ROBERTS
If someone says they are having heart trouble and they deny this symptom claiming their healing by faith they could die. A perfect example of this is when Oral Roberts was on Paul Crouch on "Praise the Lord" show on TBN (October 6, 1992). I watched as Crouch was asked to lay hands on Oral Roberts to minister to his chest pains, Roberts exclaimed, "I feel the healing power of Jesus!" and said it felt like an "electric current go through him." Paul you are anointed. Oral Roberts was pronounced healed on TBN. But was he really? It was reported less than four hours later, while visiting a home in Newport Beach, Roberts felt more pains and was hospitalized at Hoag Presbyterian Memorial Hospital (also in Newport Beach), shortly after midnight. Subsequent articles report that Roberts' heart attack was "near fatal." ("Evangelist Has Tests," The Orange County [CA] Register [Dec.16 1992], A-7) the healing evangelist now has a pacemaker ("Roberts Out of Hospital," The Orange County [CA] Register (2l December 1992), A-30). Of course this is ignored by the crowds following his doctrine. One can only wonder why?
ROD PARSLEY
It is reported that this up-and-coming Word-Faith prosperity teacher has recently been admitted to a hospital for back surgery. There go all his claims of being able to "name it and claim it"! And it doesn't stop there, according to G. Richard Fisher of Personal Freedom Outreach:
To say that Jesus had to suffer all our diseases on the cross is an old error referred to as healing in the atonement. While healing is in the atonement in the ultimate sense (Romans 8 and Revelation 21), the full benefits of glorified, deathless bodies will only be realized in heaven. We owe everything (all spiritual and physical blessings) to the atonement of Jesus but we do not receive all of those blessings right now. Scripture makes that abundantly clear. Parsley has evidence in his own home that his teaching on healing is off-base — his son Austin has been diagnosed “with Asperger's syndrome, a high-functioning form of autism.” God has provided evidence of Parsley’s own errors but for whatever reason he refuses to see it. It is sad that Parsley can so compartmentalize that he lays teaching on his followers but has a different reality at home. Parsley shared in a sermon televised last June 4 that his son was diagnosed at the Cleveland Clinic and reports while he is making improvement, “we're not all the way out of the woods but we're on our way.”
Parsley has since claimed that his son, Austin, has been completely healed of Asperger's syndrome. However, since his son is never brought on his father's TV program, it is still to be confirmed that Austin has had any "healing" at all apart from traditional treatments and programs since the diagnosis at Cleveland Clinic. The question remains ... why would Parsley need medical practitioners to diagnose his son when God is supposed to heal him immediately when Parsley commands Him to?
Added to that is the fact that as much as Parsley rants about God's Kingdom come in our body, he still has a deaf section and a signer in his church. As kindly as we can, we say, physician heal thyself. (Personal Freedom Outreach, Rod Parsley - The Raging Prophet", 1999)
Parsley, in his book, Renamed and Redeemed, states that: “Jesus is not sick - I don't have to be sick!” (Rod Parsley, Renamed and Redeemed. Columbus, Ohio: Results Publishing, 1991, pg. 15)
Isn't it time for Parsley to admit that he cannot speak his own healing into being, as he and so many of the Word-Faith teachers declare?
DR. HOBART FREEMAN
Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings). (Robert Liichow, Sick Healers)
After a 15 year old girl whose parents belong to Faith Assembly, died of a medically treatable malady, the parents were convicted of negligent homicide and sentenced to ten years in prison. Freeman himself was charged with aiding and inducing reckless homicide in the case. Shortly afterward, on December 8, 1984, Freeman himself died, interestingly enough of pneumonia and heart failure complicated by a severely ulcerated leg.
Hobart Freeman's theology did not allow him to acknowledge that Polio had left one of his legs disfigured and lame. Quote, he said, "I have my healing." And that is all he would say when anyone pointed out the rather conspicuous inconsistency between his physical disabilities and his theology. Ultimately, his refusal to acknowledge his infirmities cost him his life. He had dutifully, according to his own theology, refused all medical treatment for the maladies that were killing him, and medical science could easily have prolonged his life, but in the end he was a victim of his own teaching. (John McArthur, Does God Still Heal, Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, transcribed from the tape, GC 90-60, titled "Charismatic Chaos" Part 9)
E.W. KENYON
E.W. Kenyon studied at the Emerson College of Oratory in Boston which was a hotbed at the time for the emerging New age thought. They imagined they have discovered laws of faith, promoting a Christianized version of occultism. Kenyon had divorced his wife even when he taught that what one speaks they will possess. E.W Kenyon who is certainly the Father of the Word of Faith Movement taught divine healing and that it was always God's will to heal. But he died in a coma, brought on by a malignant tumor. He died from disease. (Mike Oppenheimer, Let Us Reason Ministries, Death By Faith, http://www.letusreason.org/Wf25.htm)
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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posted
To Linda you said:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Yet you know all these things in your head and not your heart.
To me you said:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I can't help you if you don't believe the Bible.
Statements like these just blow me away…. It’s one thing to disagree with others and to debate the differences, it’s something all together different to get Personal and Unkind with it.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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WhiteEagle
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posted
Softtouch
Remember that the Law brings death.
The Spirit gives Life. I know how you dislike anything that is spiritualized.
Read John chapter 3.
Woman at the WELL.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I don't know why Paul instructed Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake.
I do know that Medically drinking one glass of red wine is actually GOOD for one's health generally. Wine has ingredients that help the heart and blood vessels.
I do know that it does aid digestion of foods.
Nothing magical there.
Perhaps it would be like us giving someone some general health advice.
By general health advice, I mean things like eat your veggies, or take vitimins or eat a balanced diet and things like that.
It doesn't mean that Timothy was sick just because Paul gave him some advice.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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I don't know why Paul instructed Timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach's sake.
I do know that Medically drinking one glass of red wine is actually GOOD for one's health generally. Wine has ingredients that help the heart and blood vessels.
I do know that it does aid digestion of foods.
Nothing magical there.
Perhaps it would be like us giving someone some general health advice.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
So what was Timothy's problem? And Why didn't Paul say that to him instead of drink some wine?
Where does the Bible tell us that Believers will never suffer illness or sickness bodily once we're saved? (Plain scripture please... not spiritualized interpretations, thanks!)
Plain scripture on healing and forgiveness going hand in hand.
1. Mark 2:5-11
seeing their faith, Jesus told the paralytic,"Son your sins are forgiven."
BUT SOME OF THE SCRIBES WERE SITTING THERE, THINKING TO THEMSELVES. "WHY DOES HE SPEAK LIKE THIS? HE'S BLASHEMING! WHO CAN FORGIVE SINS BUT GOD ALONE?
Right away Jesus understood in his spirit that they were reasoning like this within themselves and said to them,"Why are you reasoning these things in your hearts? Which is easier: to say to the paralytic; "your sins are forgiven", orto say. "Get up, pick up your bed and walk? But so you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin". He told the paralytic. " I tell you: get up, pick up your bed and walk."
Jesus used healings to prove He has the authority to forgive our sins.
It's pretty plain in this text.
Read the gospels, all the times Jesus healed someone he commented that their faith in Him was how they could be healed.
I can't help you if you don't believe the Bible.
The Bible doesn't promise that believers won't get sick. It does promise us healing, when we are sick.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
So what was Timothy's problem? And Why didn't Paul say that to him instead of drink some wine?
Where does the Bible tell us that Believers will never suffer illness or sickness bodily once we're saved? (Plain scripture please... not spiritualized interpretations, thanks!)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QUOTE]
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Just dont quote Isaiah and Peter and go round telling people that if they had enough faith they would receive their healing because that is wresting these scriptures out of context.
We will all one day have manifestation of our healing when we are changed and we are redeemed from this earthly tent.
And that is not happening because you or I conjured up enough "faith" to receive it... it is happening because HE ROSE and GOD had enough mercy and grace on you and me to give us faith enough to believe it!!!
NO PROIMISED LAND HERE; OUR PROMISED LAND IS THERE! What we are promised here and have is peace and joy and power in the Holy Ghost... freedom from walking in bondage to our flesh and to sin and HIS mind and HIS seal and HIS indwelling HOLY Spirit our earnest deposit till the day of our redemption. And that is all we need come sickness disease plague flood homelessness, depression, persecution, inprisonment, torture, or any other unpleasant thing that may come.
You say that one day, after we die on earth and go to heaven then we all will be healed, so that kind of gives credence to my statement you thought was ridiculous.
I'm not saying that one has to cough up enough Faith on their own, because they can't, do it.
Jesus is the Author of our faith. We go to Him and touch the Hem of His garment spiritually and ask Him to help our unbelief. He is the Source.
None of us can ever cough up enough faith in our own power.
What many Christian lack is knowledge about the things that Paul and Peter and the Gospels talk about in the spirit.
Yes a Christian can be chronically ill and still be a blessing and perhaps God is allowing it for His purposes, but most of the time or at least many times, Christians aren't a blessing when they are sick, as they cling to it as their thorn in the flesh when they need to be fighting it actively.
Thorn in the flesh is a doctine taught from one verse that Paul writes, and everyone lays claim to it.
Yes we enter the promised land when we enter into the Spiritual Kingdom of God on earth when we Worship God and obey God and walk staightly and keep in repentance. That's what I mean about entering the Promise Land.
Yes ,we occupy our little space on earth for Christ. Sorry we're still a human being at this time and not dead yet.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Just because the believer inherits Eternal Life, doesn't mean we have to wait until we are dead in the grave to experience Communion and fellowship with the Lord and as God is the Father of Lights and gives every good gift, from above.
It is rediculous of you to imply that this is what I or Drew or Walt or even WildB is saying!
In fact if you understand the position of the church in this life this picture you paint is impossible!!! We are NOW as HE is in heaven; WE are seated now in heavenly places; We are citizens now of Heaven above; We live now in the earth FROM heaven above.
That is exactly why all this business about name it claim it health wealth and glory for this earthen vessel is so obsurd! There is a whole genre out there that wants you to stay focused on this body of flesh and on this life of the world and on all manner of worldly things and that is exactly the opposite of what and where and HOW we should be living. We live HERE from ABOVE, we do not live there from here. ANd we do not live here from here as the heathen do and the pragmatic, purpose driven, name it claim it seekr sensitive psychobabble teaching mega church tv preachers want you to believe.
If you cant be dead broke and full of peace and joy and you cant be sicker than dog or in more pain than a prisioner of war in a torture chamber and be filled with peace and Joy then yoou are missing something.
Yet you know all these things in your head and not your heart.
You have known them in your heart as you state you have been healed.
We have faith in God which comes from Christ who is the author of our faith. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and the mystery that was hidden until Christ of the gospel is: Christ in You the Hope of Glory.
Once one can know it in their heart and not just their brain, then everything is different.
WildB is pooh-poohing any kind of healing from what I read of his/hers posts.
Christ came and conquered sin and death and redeemed us back to Him.
What you don't understand is that with sin and death has come all diseases and illnesses that mankind suffers from.
So if sin and death are conquered then the healings come.
The two go hand in hand with repentance.
If Adam and Eve had never sinned mankind would not be experiencing illness,or diseases.
With redemption comes healing,it's the natural outpouring of the blessing.
That's why missionaries see miracles. Those people in underdeveloped countries haven't been indoctrinated against healings. Their faith wasn't crippled by a culture that teaches that miracles only happened in the Bible.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
Just because the believer inherits Eternal Life, doesn't mean we have to wait until we are dead in the grave to experience Communion and fellowship with the Lord and as God is the Father of Lights and gives every good gift, from above.
It is rediculous of you to imply that this is what I or Drew or Walt or even WildB is saying!
In fact if you understand the position of the church in this life this picture you paint is impossible!!! We are NOW as HE is in heaven; WE are seated now in heavenly places; We are citizens now of Heaven above; We live now in the earth FROM heaven above.
That is exactly why all this business about name it claim it health wealth and glory for this earthen vessel is so obsurd! There is a whole genre out there that wants you to stay focused on this body of flesh and on this life of the world and on all manner of worldly things and that is exactly the opposite of what and where and HOW we should be living. We live HERE from ABOVE, we do not live there from here. ANd we do not live here from here as the heathen do and the pragmatic, purpose driven, name it claim it seekr sensitive psychobabble teaching mega church tv preachers want you to believe.
If you cant be dead broke and full of peace and joy and you cant be sicker than dog or in more pain than a prisioner of war in a torture chamber and be filled with peace and Joy then yoou are missing something.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
I thought of this afterwards:
Moses lifted up the serpent on his staff, and the people who had faith to look up to it were healed of their snake bites.
God struck the Israelites with plague of snakes because they grumbled against the Lord.
God healed those who wished to repent and look up.
He healed them so they could take the Promised Land.
God heals us so we can also take the Promised Land.
He said "occupy unitl I come."
Please do not misunderstand. I believe in miracles; I believe in divine healing; I have been healed. I believe that God heals whom he wills when He wills as it serves HIS purpose.
But this above quote is not doctrinally sound.
Our Promised land is not here. We are citizens now of a heavenly kingdom. There is no promised land for us here. The Kingdom of God on earth is within you and comes not with observation, but with Peace and Joy and Power in the Holy Ghost. And we for the greater part so not experience it or have a clue about any of these because we do not understand that church is a people and not a place or that we are to assemble or that there in refuge and provision in the assembly. The church is as sick and depressed and in bondage and broke and in sin and worldly and in debt and in divorce and in all manner of worldly things as the heathen world and does not prosper because do not understand living on earth from above; we do not understand that this earth is not our home nor the things of it including this earthen tent that we walk around in.
Yes, we occupy till HE comes, but what? Physical territory? I think not!
The church does NOT HAVE AN EARTHLY PROMISED LAND. This is borrowed land it belongs to the heathen right now and we will leave it when it is time to go... and this body too.
All I am saying is that our reward is not here. Jesus has it with HIM; Our home is not HERE it is there. We are to live as witness to the power of God on earth as we sojourn in the wilderness and we should live with power Amen... But that power is a power that means that we have peace and Joy 24/7 whether we be sick as a dog with a plague or burned upside down on a stake or live in box on the street or whether we be materially and physically blessed beyond our wildest imaginations. And we spend far too much time worrying about the physical things of this world.
Further, I am saying that these passages do not speak to the healing of disease literaly. They speak to the reconcillation of man and man's return to God's life and hello yes there is health and prosperity according to the degree that your soul prospers.
Is God still healing ? You betcha! Here is a scripture that talks about it.....
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Just dont quote Isaiah and Peter and go round telling people that if they had enough faith they would receive their healing because that is wresting these scriptures out of context.
We will all one day have manifestation of our healing when we are changed and we are redeemed from this earthly tent.
And that is not happening because you or I conjured up enough "faith" to receive it... it is happening because HE ROSE and GOD had enough mercy and grace on you and me to give us faith enough to believe it!!!
NO PROIMISED LAND HERE; OUR PROMISED LAND IS THERE! What we are promised here and have is peace and joy and power in the Holy Ghost... freedom from walking in bondage to our flesh and to sin and HIS mind and HIS seal and HIS indwelling HOLY Spirit our earnest deposit till the day of our redemption. And that is all we need come sickness disease plague flood homelessness, depression, persecution, inprisonment, torture, or any other unpleasant thing that may come.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Linda,
As the soul prospers so will the body.
Yes our earthly bodies will be dust after we die and we will die if not raptured out.
God wrote so we could live in this earthly life as well, not just put all of the promises for earth on hold until we die.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
Sory~ It is as the body of the fleash grows weak that the spirit man with Gods Spirit stands forward in eternal reason.
Fleash can only be healed for a season and a little time.
Just because the believer inherits Eternal Life, doesn't mean we have to wait until we are dead in the grave to experience Communion and fellowship with the Lord and as God is the Father of Lights and gives every good gift, from above.
Some of you people need to change your receivers. ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
So iiiifffff "healed by His stripes" means physical.
Then how did healing take place before His death?
huuuuummmmmmm?????
Any healing occurred through the Levinical priests and the Law.
You may notice that not many healings are recorded in the Old Testament.
When healings occurred in the Old Testament is was still a manifestaion of that person's faith and belief in God. Naman comes to mind as he washed in the dirty ol' river to get healed.
We're talking about miraculous healings, not (every day God created human immune responses) that God put in us to help us survive.
The Levites priests used to separate people who had lesions on their body and offer sacrifices for that person.
I thought of this afterwards:
Moses lifted up the serpent on his staff, and the people who had faith to look up to it were healed of their snake bites.
God struck the Israelites with plague of snakes because they grumbled against the Lord.
God healed those who wished to repent and look up.
He healed them so they could take the Promised Land.
God heals us so we can also take the Promised Land.
He said "occupy unitl I come."
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Linda,
As the soul prospers so will the body.
Yes our earthly bodies will be dust after we die and we will die if not raptured out.
God wrote so we could live in this earthly life as well, not just put all of the promises for earth on hold until we die.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
Sory~ It is as the body of the fleash grows weak that the spirit man with Gods Spirit stands forward in eternal reason.
Fleash can only be healed for a season and a little time.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
Linda,
As the soul prospers so will the body.
Yes our earthly bodies will be dust after we die and we will die if not raptured out.
God wrote so we could live in this earthly life as well, not just put all of the promises for earth on hold until we die.
When the soul is prospering from God, then that person can be healed and will be as it will go hand in hand.
It's a testimony for the Lord.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Amen Sister Linda!!!!!!!!!!
The context is the restoration of those separated from God. As Brother Walt has said, Context!!
Well written and well posted Sis. God bless you.
Whoso ever is restored to God can not help but be healed.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
So iiiifffff "healed by His stripes" means physical.
Then how did healing take place before His death?
huuuuummmmmmm?????
Any healing occurred through the Levinical priests and the Law.
You may notice that not many healings are recorded in the Old Testament.
When healings occurred in the Old Testament is was still a manifestaion of that person's faith and belief in God. Naman comes to mind as he washed in the dirty ol' river to get healed.
We're talking about miraculous healings, not (every day God created human immune responses) that God put in us to help us survive.
The Levites priests used to separate people who had lesions on their body and offer sacrifices for that person.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
A third question is
Is The Bible THE Living Active God Breathed Word?
Stop your sillyness.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
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posted
A third question is
Is The Bible THE Living Active God Breathed Word?
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by ^AngelofLight^:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
2 Corinthians 11:14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Bravo. Keep the quotes coming. Surely my username is a fabulous indication that I am evil incarnate, Satan herself. Man's interpretation of the word of god, condemnation for those who doubt his divine message is uncorrupted and delivered without ill motive and prejudice, by man. Mangle and contort the words as you must, to suit your unholy purposes. Spirituality is lost on you.
(bold added by SoftTouch)
Dude (or is it Dudette? One gets confused reading your profile)
Satan "Herself"??? Now where in the Bible does it say that Satan is female? OR are you saying that "You" are female?
Your words seem full of New Age overtones (as does your profile). If that's the spirituality you're talking about, then yes, it is lost on me - and Thanks be to God Almighty for that! If I'm wrong on this then please let me know.
I have two questions for you. Who do you say that Jesus of Nazareth is? And who is HE to you?
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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