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Topic: I need some input...please.
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AMH
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posted
I see nothing wrong with lively debates. But if you don’t have the stomach for it then why are you here? I can imagine that the local church that you are attending is giving you nice little pats on the back for following the party line.
Not to continue to disagree with the absent HisGrace, but HisGrace brought up Lot as being proof for the rapture. Then when we began to delve into the story of Lot-poof goes HisGrace and poof goes the proof. Imagine that. HisGrace does make a valid point in one respect though, didn’t Jesus say that as in the days of Lot.
There are two types of believers-genuine and fake. A person can be both, but not at the same time. And this is what Lot’s problem was. Yes the scripture does say that Lot vexed his righteous soul. But does this mean that Lot was a believer to the end. Not hardly. And does not the Bible describe the false church of the end times as being a lot like Sodom? And does not the Bible demand that the believers that find themselves in such a “church” to get out or else?
My plan was to show HisGrace that not only is it a false assumption to compare Lot’s leaving Sodom to the rapture. It is also a false assumption that Lot was a believer at that time in his life. (We do not have to go very deep into Lot’s personal life to find great wickedness. And that is why Lot could not return to his Uncle. And by the way, Lot’s Uncle is a picture of the true church.)
Those that do find themselves in a false church and then find within themselves the fortitude to leave are not necessarily out of danger. They still must find a safe harbor. Lot never did.
But HisGrace is not interested in all of this and I do not feel that the rest of you are either. You have certainly out foxed me. I am surprised by the cleverness that all of you posses. I just don’t think that anyone knows the Bible quite as good as you tribbers do.
Forever speechless,
Andy
Oh, one final thing. If you have to live a lie in order to have a loving relationship then I suggest you take up knitting as Christianity does not fit that bill, at least not the type brought to us by the Master.
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oneofgods
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I will leave this thread with a final note.
"Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels, And the Lord's servants must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful." 2 Timothy 2:23 NIV
Once again I ask for your forgivness if I have put out the wrong message. I don't disagree with truth or that the rapture has yet to come, I do see it as you see it. I only wanted to point out the way that this thread seemed to be heading. Sorry.
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Gramajo320
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Hi Betty,
I will say again that I completely believe in the rapture and the pretrib. Every single word in the bible is God's completely true words and we accept every word as being the total truth in His Holy Bible. I agree with you too that we make no apology for believing God's word! God bless you very much , Betty!
Love from your friend,
Joanne
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Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
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"The rapture is not part of The Gospel, though it is part of the bible."
To me the Bible, the whole Bible is God's Word. I believe God's Word. If my believing God's Word offends anyone, I do not apologize for that.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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oneofgods
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The rapture is not part of The Gospel, though it is part of the bible. And I do not disagree with spreading the truth or the rapture. But people cannot begin to understand about the rapture if they do not first understand their need for Jesus. And seeing people arguing might make them want to question whether or not they want to be like this if that's what it is like.
I have been involved in a ministry called "Carry the Cross", we go down to the big drinking districts on friday and saturday until the bars close, or out to various street corners in the city. With a 9 foot cross. We go and talk about Jesus, nothing else, we steer away from debating about religon and the traps Satan sets before us. We don't judge people on anything less we be judged ourselves. We say hi to the people that walk by, listen to their stories and give them Jesus' story.
Of course this is a thread about end times events, so maybe the arguing is justified and I am wrong, hmmmm?
It is not my intent to offend anyone, only to make sure we are on the right course.
God Bless.
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Gramajo320
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Hi Betty,
Thank you very much for your kind words! I completely believe in the rapture and the pretrib and I know it's going to come about! Please just disregard OneofGod's posting for it's without merit. God bless you very much, Betty!
With love from your friend,
Joanne
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Gramajo320
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TEXASGRANDMA
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GramaJO,
Thank you for your kind words.
God bless you, Sister,
betty
oneofgods
"Satan is smiling his face upon all of these posts, nothing makes him more happy than Gods own followers disputing amongst themselves. There are some things God does not intend for us to know, we are to spread the Gospel and obey His laws."
You give mixed messages. One one hand you seem to be complaining because everybody doesn't agree then your siggy says we should stand up for the truth. The Bible makes it quite clear that the rapture is pre-trib or you suggestion that we do not stand up for the truth of the Gospel in order to have peace?
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Gramajo320
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Betty and His Grace,
Amen to your posts with which I am in agreement and God bless you both!
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Gramajo320
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oneofgods
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Satan is smiling his face upon all of these posts, nothing makes him more happy than Gods own followers disputing amongst themselves. There are some things God does not intend for us to know, we are to spread the Gospel and obey His laws.
I only hope that an unbeliever doesn't stumble upon all this and turn farther away.
“It is better to be divided by truth than united in error; it is better to speak truth that hurts and then heals than to speak a lie; it is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie; it is better to stand alone with truth than to be wrong with the ultitude...The religion of today is ‘get-along-ism.’ It is time for men and women of God to stand, [even] if they have to stand alone.” ~ Adrian Rogers
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HisGrace
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You're getting off topic AMH. The question is, will there be a pre-trib Rapture - yay or nay?
I vote 'YAY'
There has been an accusation made that there is contempt on this thread. I don't want to be accused of being contemptible, so I am pulling out of this topic.
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AMH
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HisGrace,
Right right your point, that is what we are talking about isn’t it, (not so much the truth unless by accident). I did say insinuate and so far I am safe there. Let’s take this family business first.
Lot had a family long before he had any wives. The real “father” figure in this sordid story is not Lot as you suggest by the reference to his “daughters” but Uncle Abraham. Lot chose to leave his Uncle’s protection so that he could join in the fun that was to be had in Sodom. Lot’s excuse was that he and Uncle had too much of this world’s goods to remain together.
So tell me HisGrace, how much of “this world’s goods” did Lot come out of Sodom with?
And if Lot escaped with nothing then why did he not return to Uncle?
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I am sorry that you feel that way. Truth is we are human and we will not always agree on everything. But, I can tell you this, keep your eyes on the soon return of Jesus and you can't go wrong. The Bible says that Jesus is coming back for those who are looking for His return. God bless and keep you,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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cefaison
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What I don't get is that this is supposed to be a Christian board, yet there is such contempt coming forth from some of these posts. Maybe I am wrong, but that is certainly that feeling that I get.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
Are you saying that this exodus is to be likened to the rapture?
No - if you will check my post carefully you will see that the point I was trying to make is that God often sees fit to remove his faithful before tragedy erupts, thus supporting the belief that God will remove his church before the tribulation erupts.
According to the Bible, Lot only had two daughters and one wife. They all escaped Sodom and Gomorrah's carnage. It was his wife's choice to disobey God and turn to look back. Therefore, she was punished.
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AMH
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HisGrace,
Thank you for the invitation. Maybe we should size up your first posting to this thread to see what we are up against before I “give it a try”.
What you insinuate about Lot and his family is not exactly the whole story, (your account leaves out many important facts, how convenient).
As you know, Lot’s whole family was not saved from the fire that fell on Sodom. In fact, only Lot and two of his wives were delivered from those flames. The rest were destroyed, including his first wife. You know that she went out of the city just like Lot did.
Are you saying that this exodus is to be likened to the rapture?
So the Lord raptures Lot’s first wife and then turns her into a pillar of salt. This is the first time I have ever heard of someone getting raptured and then being lost. Or do you want us to consider being turned into a pillar of salt a picture of paradise?
(Wow, that article of Dr. Adrian Rodgers must really be a barn burner.)
And then where does Lot go and what does Lot do? Pre-trib analysis just does not hold water. But the pre-tribbers already know this, they just do not care. You see their agenda is everything.
We could spend more time taking apart the rest of the points that you or Dr. Adrian Rodgers makes but why put ourselves through such agony? Let’s just admit between ourselves, you and me that the pre-trib people do not have any respect for academic excellence. They will say anything to make it seem like they are right.
AMH
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
OK, I will start with the scripture. But you are not going to like that either. Sorry.
AMH
Give it a try - it hasn't stopped you so far.
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AMH
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OK, I will start with the scripture. But you are not going to like that either. Sorry.
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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One of these days the rapture will happen. When it does, God will bring joy to those who believed His Word and punishment to those who did not. As far as looking for teachers to say what I already believed, this is far from the case. When I joined a Church, I did not ask what the Preacher believed about the trib, first. It is not like this is a subject that is taught every Sunday. But, the pre-trib is taught by the Assemblies of God and every type of Baptist Church that I have been to. The Bible does teach in a secret rapture. This teaching does not make sense to believe that and believe that it will happen after the 7 year tribulation. Until the rapture happens I will be doing like the Apostle Paul said to do and that is looking for the blessed hope.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
No, you only think that there has to be an explanation for you to believe in pre-trib. You will believe it no matter what.AMH
I have quoted many scriptures to solidly back up my views AMH. I haven't seen one scripture from you to support your 'claims'. You quoted one little scripture - Hebrews 11:36-40 and that was referring to OT times. 
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AMH
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No, you only think that there has to be an explanation for you to believe in pre-trib. You will believe it no matter what.
AMH
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I have done 4 studies with teachers I respect who teach the rapture is pre-trib. I have had 4 Pastors who I respect who believe in the pre-trib or I could believe you. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
betty
Amen Betty - I too have followed the views of sound teachings re pre-trib., all solidly Bible-based.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
One of the main things wrong in my eye with a pre trib rapture is the word last trump. You can't get past the fact that Paul used those exact words in 1Cor15:52.
So now we have a contridiction in the Bible. This is very bad because that means eithr Paul was spirit filled and if thats the case how can we trust his Epistles. Or John didn't really have a Revelation, which if he lied about that how can we trust his writtings.
No I don't believe either of these are the case, I feel thatuntil someone shows me something different I will just have to settle on the fact that there isn't a Pre trib Rapture.
The Word is God and God is the Word, so there are no contradictions in the Bible. Therefore, there has to be an explanation for the wording 'the last trump' and the 'seventh trump' if we are to believe in pre-trib.
Explanation of 'the last trump' in I Cor.15:52 according to Barne's Notes -
"At the last trump.When the trumpet shall sound to raise the dead. The word "last" here does not imply that any trumpet shall have been before sounded at the resurrection, but is a word denoting that this is the consummation or close of things; it will end the economy of this world; it will be connected with the last state of things"
The Seventh Trump, in Rev. 11, is making a different announcement. It is announcing that the whole world has now become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever. However, there is great terror yet to come before this is fulfilled.
The anti-Christ is introduced in Rev. 13. The actual second coming of Christ isn't until Rev. 19. We can clearly see two different events in I Thess 4:15-18 and Rev. 19. I Thes. speaks about meeting Jesus in the clouds and being carried away. Rev. 19 speaks about the bride {the church),already in heaven, being prepared to join Jesus with a triumphant entry back to earth to reign with him for a thousand years. No trumps are mentioned in this chapter.
I Thess.4:15-18,And now, brothers and sisters, I want you to know what will happen to the Christians who have died so you will not be full of sorrow like people who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus comes, God will bring back with Jesus all the Christians who have died.
I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves.
Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words.
You can carefully read Rev. 19 for yourself, but I will quote a portion of it.
Rev.19:1-7Hallelujah! After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants." And again they shouted: "Hallelujah! The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever." The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne. And they cried: Amen, Hallelujah!"
Then a voice came from the throne,saying: "Praise our God, all you his servants,you who fear him, both small and great!"
Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
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AMH
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oneyearandcounting,
Your trumpet thing does make the point that the pre-trib people have got problems with their system that they can not deal with. If you will notice, it has been almost 100 years since “Dr.” Scofield gave us his great study bible and yet the pre-tribbers have more problems with their system then less. They think that because they have numbers on their side, (a lot of people who believe the same stuff) that they can take comfort in that. But even this numbers game of theirs is a contradiction because when they talk about judgment they seem to think that the big number of people are the one’s who are judged. So what if some preachers who are respected have certain personal beliefs? That only proves that certain preachers who are respected have certain personal beliefs. It really does not prove a thing.
The problem with your post-trib trumpet thing oneyearandcounting is that it still relies on the same foundation that the pre-trib, mid-trib systems have built. That some how the 70th week of Daniel has been suspended by God for literally thousands of years. This is the crux of the matter. The tribbers three, (pre, mid, post) continue to spew the same gap theory over and over whether they realize it or not. But they have a hard time explaining why God would allow for such a gap.
The best that they can come up with for there being a gap of thousands of years and still counting is that God originally was going to set up the Kingdom during Christ’s first earthly appearance and that somehow that plan was thwarted so that God had to settle for Plan “B”. According to the tribbers three, we the Church are Plan “B”. Not something that God really intended but something that He had to settle for.
How fortunate for us that God was unable to bring His Plan “A” into being. If God were actually strong enough to bring it about then we would be lost. Thanks be to God that He was to weak to bring Plan “A” to fruition.
This Plan “A”, Plan “B” theory of the tribbers three is more than just fraudulent. But some one like me, (a non-gentleman) is not qualified to speak of such matters.
AMH
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oneyearandcounting
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One of the main things wrong in my eye with a pre trib rapture is the word last trump. You can't get past the fact that Paul used those exact words in 1Cor15:52. Now if The seventh trump is the last And I must assume that it is because the word trump is not mentioned the rest of the book of Revelation, WE can draw one of two conclusions. First the rapture is gonna happen in th end. Two Paul was a liar when he wrote Corinthians and didn't know what he was talking about. No wait there is a third using the verse in 1cor 15:51 isn't a rapture verse. Now I really don't think Paul was a liar because if so how can we trust any thing that he wrote.
I have been looking at this rapture thing with an open mind and I'm sorry I can't get past the verse in Corinthians.
So far two different people have tried to prove to me but noone has told me what they do with the words last trump in 1corinthians15:51
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Not to beat a dead horse but Paul uses last trump. Therefore it has to be the seventh. It can't be the first six well simple because they aren't last.
So now we have a contridiction in the Bible. This is very bad because that means eithr Paul was spirit filled and if thats the case how can we trust his Epistles. Or John didn't really have a Revelation, which if he lied about that how can we trust his writtings.
No I don't believe either of these are the case, I feel thatuntil someone shows me something different I will just have to settle on the fact that there isn't a Pre trib Rapture.
Well I hope I haven't made anyone angry. Itis just thta this is one of the main problems I have And would like someone to clear it up.
May God bless you
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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AMH
I have done 4 studies with teachers I respect who teach the rapture is pre-trib. I have had 4 Pastors who I respect who believe in the pre-trib or I could believe you. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
1st Corinthians 15:51-52-- Behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (the sleep of death) but we shall be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling (wink) of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptable and we (who are still alive) shall be changed.
1st Thess 4:16--For the Master Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump (trumpet) of Yahweh, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first...
I believe that both of these verses are referring to the Rapture. We hear about trumps a number of times in the Bible, and 'the last trump' in this case would mean the last trump of a closure of a state of being in the world as we know it presently.
quote:
Revelation 11: 15-18 And the seventh angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying: the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty-and-four elders which sat before God on their seats fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: We give thanks to thee O Yahweh Elohim El Shaddai (almighty) which art and was and are to come, because thou hast taken to thee thy great power and hast reigned. And the nations were angry and thy wrath has come AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be judged and thou should give reward to thy servants the prophets and to the saints and them that FEAR THY NAME small and great..and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth.
Isa.27:13 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
A number of trumps were referred to in Rev. before Jesus' Second Coming and none was referred to as the 'last trump'. Isaiah 27:13 is also speaking about the Jesus' Second Coming.
There won't be any 'last trumps' regarding Jesus' Second Coming because he will be reigning for a thousand years. After that there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
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AMH
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oneyearandcounting,
There are a lot of cool people around. If you are comfortable being in a position of Scripture writer/interpreter then there is no need of explaining it to me, (I was just asking an innocent question like you were). Besides, you have more seniority here then I have.
TEXASGRANDMA,
The “last trump” is the Second Coming, not the rapture. Not a very literal interpretation is it? Oh, I forgot, we only do that when it is convenient.
Here let’s see, the last trump is the second coming, but the rapture is the first installment of the second coming so that the rapture is part “A” of last trumpet. I never was very good at playing musical instruments, it takes more hot air then I can muster.
AMH
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oneyearandcounting
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Betty
What you say I agree with but, that would mean that this verse is not a rapture verse 1Cor.15: 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
And the reason is because if the last trump is Christs Appearing on th emount of Olives then how can this verse be a rapture. You will notice the important words last trump. Now if this isn't a rapture verse why is it taught as one.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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The Last trump is the Second Coming not the rapture. When we are caught up in the air with Jesus, His feet never touch the ground. But, when Jesus comes back in the Second Coming, He will have the Church with Him. He will step on the Mount of Olives and then the Mount will split apart. When Jesus comes from the Church, He is the Shepherd gathering His children to Him, but when He comes in the Second Coming, He will be armed for battle. Does a groom hold a sword for battle when he meets his bride?
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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oneyearandcounting
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AMH
Where did I change words to the
Scripture? As far as I can see from rereading my post all I did is use Yahweh instead of God ( which I beleive is one of Gods many names is it not?) And also I used Elohim again one of Gods names. I got my verses from two sources One Matthew Henrys Commentary, and also from a Bible that all the verses list the Lords name in the Hebrew ( they are called the Sacred names). Now if this is wrong then I aplogize. But like most people here instead of typing the whole thing out I copied and pasted. Again if this is wrong I apologize.
AS far as my stance on the rapture I was trying to prove A point. While asking a question. I am in no way trying to play a shell game in fact if I had to say when I beleive the Rapture is I would lean towards the end of the tribulation.
If you look at the verses that I used I talked about the last trump those are two of the few verses that pre trib rapture people base thier belief on. My point was simple if the verse in 1Corinthians says it will be the last trump, and the seventh in last trump in the Book Of Revelation has so much happining before the trump happens how can it be a pre trib. Here are the verses again from Matthew Henrys Commentary.
1 Cor15:51-52 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev.11 15:18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Now the point I was and still am trying to make is if the Rapture is on the last trump how can it be pre trib.
So I guess I'm not sure I inserted words where I wanted as you say but for that I aplogize. If it is wrong of me to use the Sacred Names Bible then I will stop. I just thought it was cool using Gods other names and not just god all the time. I mean those are his names correct?
God bless you Amh Hopefully I was able to clear everything up. I do believe that the Scared Names Bible was retranslated by someone of Jewish decent.
AGain God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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AMH
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oneyearandcounting,
You do take many liberties with scripture don’t you? Any time that you feel like it you are changing the words. I thought that only the author could do that. What you want to do is to mix and match. Here a little Greek, there a little Hebrew. By what authority do you do this? It is just like the way that the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib people operate. They redefine terms to fit their personal beliefs, pull rabbits out of their hats, and say the wildest of things.
Here is a little Hebrew for you. A prophet must be 100% accurate or they are to be stoned. Here is a little Greek for you. A Bible Teacher sent by God must be 100% accurate or they are apostate.
Certainly the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib teachers cannot all be right. At least 2 of the 3 teachers are bogus. That only leaves 1 that could possibly be correct. Sort of like a shell game where no matter which you choose the set up makes it impossible for you to pick the correct shell because the marble is not there.
Another Hebrew author has written about vanity. While you continue trying for the non-existent marble under the fast moving shells there is no time left for real bible study. An excellent achievement by the enemy.
Is there a cold going around here? That seems to be the only thing that everyone around here can actually catch.
AMH
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oneyearandcounting
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Wow all this wonderful information on the pre trib theory of the rapture, but not one of you answered my question so I'll re post it I guess. Here is the question. If there is a pre-trib rapture,What do you do with these verses.
1st Corinthians 15:51-52-- Behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (the sleep of death) but we shall be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling (wink) of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptable and we (who are still alive) shall be changed.
1st Thess 4:16--For the Master Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump (trumpet) of Yahweh, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first...
Ok these are two of the verses that are used for a rapture. Now I'm not denying the rapture but here is the verse that talks about the last trump.
Revelation 11: 15-18 And the seventh angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying: the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty-and-four elders which sat before God on their seats fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: We give thanks to thee O Yahweh Elohim El Shaddai (almighty) which art and was and are to come, because thou hast taken to thee thy great power and hast reigned. And the nations were angry and thy wrath has come AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be judged and thou should give reward to thy servants the prophets and to the saints and them that FEAR THY NAME small and great..and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth.
Ok now go back and read everything that happens before the seventh and last trump. If you read all that happens before the last trump you will see that the church is here after the death of the witnesses.
Now compare the verse in Rev. to this verse in Isaiah.
Isa.27:13 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
Now when is all this happening? At the last trump. What happens before the last trump? The witnesses come on the scene along with the antichrist and Christians are still here.
I did just remeber though that when God released the plagues on Eygpt, He did raprure out the Nation of Isreal. Then he placed them back in Eygpt. That would be sarcasm by the way. I think we all kniow that they were left in Eygpt and were all protected from everything that happened except for Pharoahs anger.(He made them work even harder). By a pretrib rapture theory are you saying that we as Christians are better than the Nation of Isreal in that time. Maybe what you are saying is that God loves us Christians more than the Nation of Isreal.
Here is something for everyone of us to think about. I have been on this board for awhile now. One thing I can't remember seeing is a person changing thier mind on what they believe. and admitting so. Is it that hard for us as people to look at the scripture when someone points it outand say wow I see it.
Betty threw a few verses out there. Matt. and Rev 3:10 I will be looking deeper into Rev 3:10 maybe I'll see something new. I pray that all of you would look into other points of view on certain things especial things that aren't salvation issues. And the rapture isn't a salvation issue.
By the way the verses in Matthew that Betty used could also be used to be a post or a mid trib rapture. They are basically saying that life will be going on and not to many will be thinking of God at that time.
Thats just a small part I could go deeper but it may have to wait.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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HisGrace
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I agree with TEXASGRANDMA that Matt.24:37-42 is talking about the Rapture. This description is much like to-day, with life going on in all of its revelry, with many totally unaware that Christ is coming soon.
I also agree that the church will be raptured away before the tribulation begins as described in Rev. 3:10.
I believe Rev. 7:1-3 is speaking about how the angels will hold back the impending storms and winds of wrath until all of the servants have received the seal of God on their foreheads. These servants are 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel, who will be saved and groomed in order to minister and convert thousands of their own, plus others, during the first part of the tribulation.
I also agree that Rev.7:9 is speaking about thousands of these new converts who will be martyred and taken to heaven.
duality you asked "So who are these people that get brought up before all the terrible stuff starts to happen?"
These will be the true born-again believers. Many believe that the anti-christ will not be revealed until the second half of the 7-year tribulation, which is referred to as the Great Tribulation, at which time true carnage will be powerfully poured out.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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“What was Matthew talking about here if he wasn't talking about the rapture?
Matthew 24:37-42
"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
What about this? If there is no such thing as the rapture, who is God talking about here? Who will He keep from the hour of trial?”
-------I believe this is indeed talking about the rapture
Revelations 3:10
”10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”
--------I believe this is a promise to the Church that God will remove us before the tribulation so that we do not have to endure the wrath of God on the anti-Christ and his followers.
God tells the angels not to do anything to the earth in terms of all of the horrible things that are going to happen until He marks the foreheads of His servants.
Revelations 7:1-3 says, 1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
-----I believe this is also talking about the rapture, but it could also pertain to those who reject the mark of the beast. In the left behind books, the writer explains a mark that will appear on the foreheads that will accept Jesus after the rapture, as a way of one believer to be able to recognize another believer. These books are fiction but this could actually be true.
”And as soon as they are marked, what happens? Revelation 7:9 9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands....13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?" 14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
---------These are those who miss the rapture but who are martyred during the tribulation for refusing the mark of the beast. They will die for their belief in Christ and will go to Heaven where they will be comforted and given rest.
I apologize for not answering your question before and welcome to the board.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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HisGrace
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Sorry duality. I will have a closer look at your post and give my views later. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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duality28
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no one really acknowledged the bible questions I posted. Is there another section that I can post them to find out what those parts in revelations mean? Maybe I just put it in the wrong section.
thanks.
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Gramajo320
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Betty and His Grace,
Amen to your postings with which I'm in agreement with! God bless you both!
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Gramajo320
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AMH
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There is nothing condescending about what I am saying. The argument that the Lord will not let judgment fall on God’s people does not originate here. The argument that the Lord will not let judgment fall on God’s people does not even originate with those that are responsible for the adoption of it by the pre-trib followers. If we want to know where it originated that would be Balaam. If you don’t like your position then give up the teaching. It is an old adage that if you don’t like the message then dispose of the messenger. Or in rancan6776’s case, if you don’t like where your pet teaching leads you then burry your head in the sand.
It is wrong for you people to hold a position that ignores all the Christians that I have mentioned. If you are a Christian then you at least ought to acknowledge the sacrifices that were made to bring the Gospel to you. But it would be best if you would not only acknowledge them, you should identify with them. Now what are you going to do? Say that AMH is not a gentleman. OK that is your right. Any time that you want me to you can make me leave. I know this.
I said earlier that every teaching that I listed can be easily disposed of by the simple application of the scriptures. Why in the world would any Christian want to hold onto such a house of cards?
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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HisGrace, you are so right. If we are looking with longing for the return of our Lord and Savior, we have nothing to fear.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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HisGrace
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Sorry rancan, such issues always end up in a debate, because we all have different views. Many also have unanswered questions. It is commendable that you have such a wonderful focus on your own spiritual journey, but it is important to make others aware that they have to be ready.
Mark 13:32-37 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.
"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
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rancan6776
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Im almost certain that I will never again post about the timing of the rapture. I did not meant to start a debate. I will say this though and I will be done with this subject publicly. When one believes that the return of Jesus is imminent, his or her main focus is not on trying to figure out where we are at in the timeline of the endtimes or who the antichrist might be or what this or that may or may not symbolize, no , your main focus is on Jesus Christ and the great commission, where it was commanded to be. I believe that satan will use everything he knows about the Word to try and deceive all of us in the end. If we are focused only on the Son that will never happen. Amen and Amen.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by MySavingGrace:
1. “blood sacrificial system” what is this?
2.What does it mean that Satan is the prince of this world? Does it mean people are consumed with things of this world like posessions and pretty things ovre God and meaning?
1.In OT times people had to become periodically atoned of their sins by making a sacrificial offering of slain goats, lambs etc.
Jesus was slain as our scrificial Lamb to become an atonement for all sins from thereon. However, we have to confess that we are sinners and accept this free gift of grace and mercy.
Romans 10:9,That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
2.When Adam and Eve fell from grace they allowed sin to enter into the world. Mankind has been battling sin ever since. These bodies of ours are made from weak, human flesh, but we can become more than overcomers by accepting Jesus into our lives.
Our fleshly bodies will always be vulnerable to Satan's attacks until we are perfected by receiving glorified bodies at the moment of death, or as many of us believe, at the time of the Rapture. On the final day of judgment Satan will finally be defeated.
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MySavingGrace
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“blood sacrificial system” what is this?
What does it mean that Satan is the prince of this world? Does it mean people are consumed with things of this world like posessions and pretty things ovre God and meaning?
AMH,
I did see it as being mean when you were saying how people oculdn't use the word if correctly. We're not to sweat the small stuff but be there for each other with what will come. You may have meant no harm, but words are powreful and can hurt.
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http://crawfordpeace.nfshost.com/node/121
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cefaison
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AMH, I don't understand why you are so condescending about pre-trib's beliefs. That is not what saves me. Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves my soul, as well as anyone who believes in him and receives the gift He so graciously gives. As Christians we should be able to agree to disagree. Certain things in the Bible are interpreted differently by different people and different denominations. I believe that as long as it does not pertain to the basic gospel of Christ and how we need to live our lives, then it's not so all-fired important that we agree. I do not judge you based on the fact that you do not belive in the pre-tribulation rapture. Do I believe differently? Yes. If I am wrong, am I ready to stand up for Christ and be a martyr and have my head cut off? YES!!!!!!!!!!! I would consider it an honor to die for my Lord as He died for me. I don't believe I will be here for that, but if I am, I am ready. And I am not going to condescend to people and threaten that "Before I begin, in fairness I would like to give you the opportunity to retract what you are saying as I was taught from my youth to always be a gentleman."
In Christ,
Christie
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HisGrace
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AMH, I never said that Christians have never suffered. Satan is the prince of this world and as long as he is around, Christians are going to suffer. However, some day he is going to be totally defeated.
You have to admit that there were times in the Bible when God saw fit to protect his followers. The scriptures say that the tribulation is going to have catastrophe like the world has never known before. We can't even imagine.
The church will have no place in the fulfillment of OT prophecies. It is all about fulfilling the covenant made to Abraham, and the taking back of the Jewish nation and its promised land. Therefore, God will see fit to remove the church before the carnage begins.
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AMH
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I am not making fun of anyone. What we are discussing is a serious matter. Let’s just take a look at how serious some of the things that are being said by the pre-tribbers really are.
This was posted by HisGrace date 9-16-05 4:02 PM with a little help from cefaison:
“Originally posted by cefaison:
Look at Biblical history. God has always taken His children out of harm's way prior to major judgments. Noah was warned to build the ark and board it before the flood. Lot was told to flee before God reigned down judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is in line with Biblical history that the Rapture will occur prior to the tribulation period.In Christ,Christie
Amen - When I post on any forum I put careful thought into it, and do discerning Bible study. Also, we can always learn great lessons from good Bible teaching of those who have done research in eschatology. I would never give an answer unless it were Bible based.”
This Judas-statement has total disregard for the past 2000 years of Christian history. Let me ask HisGrace and cefaison if they have ever heard of the catacombs of the cities of Rome and Paris? Does HisGrace and cefaison understand why Christians were forced into those catacombs? Has HisGrace and cefaison ever thought to at least read Foxe’s little book? How about a man like Caligula? Did you ever care to find out what he and his contemporaries liked doing to Christians?
Oh, you don’t care for New Testament judgments. So there is no need for us discussing all the no names listed in Hebrews 11:36-40 as their sacrifices just don’t rate on the pre-tribber scale. And of course, never mind about what happened to the Apostles. What you require is something more substantial. Something really big. How about this one, “it rains on the just and the unjust”. I know that is just a quote from a very old book and the one who said it was crucified anyway. No need to pay attention to that.
Maybe the pre-tribbers are right, God would never ask a true believer to suffer.
AMH
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HisGrace
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All I can say re pre-trib is "What if?" We better be ready, because there will be no deathbed chances.
Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
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duality28
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Hey everyone,
I'm new here and also a fairly new christian. All of this is very confusing. There are some parts of the bible that I read that make me agree with I guess who you guys call "pre tribbers". But I'm still confused. I have questions though:
What was Matthew talking about here if he wasn't talking about the rapture?
Matthew 24:37-42
"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."
What about this? If there is no such thing as the rapture, who is God talking about here? Who will He keep from the hour of trial?
Revelations 3:10
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
God tells the angels not to do anything to the earth in terms of all of the horrible things that are going to happen until He marks the foreheads of His servants.
Revelations 7:1-3 says, 1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
And as soon as they are marked, what happens? Revelation 7:9 9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands....13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?" 14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
So who are these people that get brought up before all the terrible stuff starts to happen? I'm just asking out of genuine interest cuz I just started actually putting thought to it since I'm new to all of this. So I dont want to offend anyone or anything. I'm just like everyone else who is trying to find answers. Hopefully I dont sound like a dork. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Thanks!
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oneofgods
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Hey guys, we all come to our own conclusions on this matter. Does it matter what we think though. While here on earth we are to spread the gospel. PERIOD. Whether we are pre-trib, post-trib or whatever, Christ will return and we will be with him. I am torn with the thoughts of "I wish he would come before I am done typing this post", and "Please wait a little bit longer so I can help save souls." Have you talked to anybody lately about Jesus?
Please forgive me if I am coming off as "harsh", it is not my intention to offend anyone. I have always been very interested in this matter and end time events, but the more I think about it, the more I'd rather not know.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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"Well said whitesands777. If all the pre-tribbers would take your advice then the mish-mash that they are so quick to give us would not exist. But then, what would they do with all of there free time? I know they could go into academia; there no one would ever be able to figure out that they can not read. For example they can’t even recognize the little word “if” when they see it."
AMH
You make fun of pre-tribbers and you consider yourself a gentleman. I have done 4 extensive studies on the end times. I did not come to the pre-trib belief by throwing darts at a board.
Because I am a lady, I will not resort to calling you names. But, please do not insult my intelligence.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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