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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » End Time Events In The News   » I need some input...please. (Page 3)

 
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Author Topic: I need some input...please.
oneyearandcounting
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Ok I'm going to pull out my soap box for a minute so please be patient. This is in no way meant to single someone out or pick on anyone. This is what the Lord has placed on my heart.

There has been a lot of talk about the pre tribulation rapture. I personally don't believe it will happen. There hasn't been shown any scripture to prove other wise. On that note let me say our God is not an author of confusion. Right now on at least this subject there is a lot of confusion.

A person has to ask themselves when we were told to watch for Christ coming did he mean his coming to rule or his coming to rapture the church? If we are to be watching for his coming to rapture the church, how are we to see it it is in the blink of an eye. It would make more since that we are watching for his coming to rule the world we are told to see the signs and know that his return is soon.

I don't think you can use the parable of the virgins with the oil lamps to prove the point of the rapture. The parable is about being ready for his return. Jesus wants you to know that he will back and that you need to be prepared. Any one who is only half ready or luke warm, well, sorry depart from him he never knew you. This is an example of the Laocidean Church and we all know what Jesus thought about them. They made him want to throw up.

Now some people have used the rapture to say that can't wait for it to happen to get rid of their sickness, to get their glorified bodies. Others just can't wait to get out of this cruel and often times evil world. I to can't wait but I realize there is work to do and am busy trying to do it.

AS followers of Christ we need to remember that when we accepted him we also gave him everything that is ours. Our money, homes, furniture, cars and even our bodies. They all belong to God now. Everything we have is his to do what ever he needs to use it for.

Some Christians need to realize or remember that everything is for the glory of God. If God wants to have 2 billion of his people get martyred then so be it. It's for his glory not ours. Paul knew that everything was for The Lords glory and look what he had to go through. but he went through it over and over to glorify God. Even now as you read this one of our Christian brothers is being martyred somewhere in the world. Why? For Gods glory, they have come to realize its not about them it's about him.

In a way I kind of look at the Pre tribulation rapture theory as a scare tactic. This is what I mean by it. If you are witnessing to an unsaved person and you mention the rapture pre trib. Are you showing them Gods love or are you trying to scare them into following Christ. Here is an example.

Bob he's a Christian: When Jesus comes back for his people which he will he is going to rapture them out before trouble starts.
Joe he's not a Christian: What’s the rapture?
Bob: Well he's going to make us all disappear, but the scary thing is if you don't believe you'll be left behind.
Joe: Whoa, well if that happens I'll definitely believe then.
Bob: But heres the catch what if you happen to be flying or something and it happens and your pilot is a Christian and poof he's gone. If the plane crashes and you die you'll go to hell.
Joe: Oh man that would **** . Bob what should I do I don't want to possible be left behind.
Bob: Well that is simple Joe say this prayer after me.

Now both men say the sinners pray and go on their way. The problem is if Joe was scared into following Christ, will he truly follow? God doesn't want us to follow him out of fear he wants us to follow out of love. But in Joes mind he now believes himself to be saved. The problem is That you need to follow Christ in your heart not in your mind.

There are millions of Joe's running around thinking they are saved but still doing the same things they did the day before they "Got Jesus". All thinking that when the rapture happens they will be covered. I am sorry but this is wrong.

It is also wrong to think or say that if a person who doesn’t believe in Pre trib is in trouble. Basically if the Rapture were to happen pre trib and not believing in it left someone behind oh well. That person was already planning on being here. I don't think that God would do that though. He isn't the author of confusion and that is what this theory is. If the pre trib rapture was so important than you would think that God would have been way more clear. He is clear on everything else.

What makes this generation any more special than past? What have we done to warrant being kept out of trouble? Wouldn't A pre trib rapture say that he loved us more? Or does it show how weak we really are in this day and age as Christians?

I truly believe that if you ask the Lord to show you something he will. The catch is you have to let Him show you, not look towards a man. You can't turn on your fav TV preacher and expect to hear something new. You can't visit the same websites that believe the way you do.

If you want to know about a issue you need to look at both sides of the issue then compare it to scripture. Not just look where you already believe. To have the Lord show you something you have to be willing and able to forget everything that man has told you and listen only to God.


God bless
greg

--------------------
Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.

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whitesands777
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quote:
44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

The church not mentioned after Rev 4...You can't base a doctrine on what's not mentioned...There's alot of things that aren't mentioned in the Bible but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Making doctrine on what's not mentioned is how you get false teachings... Doctrine is based on what IS written.

quote:
15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.
The insinuation that anything other than pre trib doctrine divides the body of Christ is nothing but someones false assumtion ... The understanding of grace, faith, and works is misunderstood in this assumption...we are saved by grace through faith...And it also says that faith without works is dead..It is because of faith that we do (work) the things that God has commanded...Noah had faith, but had he not built (work) the ark according to the word he heard from God (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God) he would not have been saved. The Bible says that Noah moved with holy fear and prepared an Ark in Hebrews. Grace is something we didn't desrve...We don't deserve salvation but By God's grace He offered it to us.

quote:
39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.
I don't see how this is a pre trib proof...


quote:
42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.

This is not accurate...While pre trib does recognize the great tribulation it is not the only view that recognizes the distinction...Actually the pre trib view teaches a 7 year tribulation that is triggered by the confirmation of the covenant and that the rapture happens before the confirmation of the covenant, thus before the tribulation....Every scripture of the great tribulation in the Bible references a 3 1/2 year time frame. So what pre trib doctrine really teaches is a pre covenant confirmation rapture...
Some teachers of the doctrine say the 7 year trib and the 3 1/2 great trib...But this is not what the Bible says...Jesus says great tribulation is when you see the abomination of desolation.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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AMH

I honestly believe the best we can do is be looking for the soon return of Jesus. One day all our questions will be answered, but for now we cannot go wrong, by looking with hope for Jesus to come back. I realize that I have selfish motives for wanting Jesus to come back soon. I am looking forward to my glorified body that is free from pain, but more important than that, is the longing to be with Jesus all the time.
God bless you,
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA,

With your last post you have hit on something very important. It ties into the very first posting by rancan6776.

AMH

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
It doesn’t seem very fair to protect some of the saints from trouble and not others. Why would God allow some of His people to go through the tribulation and shelter others by snatching them away? At the time of the flood the righteous were all protected and the wicked all perished, there was no second chance once the door was shut.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

The saints will all ride upon the judgment that will destroy all of the wicked.

During Noah's and Lot's time that just shows how wicked the people were if it says 'and destroyed them all'. I heard it recently said that Noah was the only just man in all of the earth at that time. So probably it was the same case in Lot's time.

Pre-tribbers believe that all of the just will be caught up just before the tribulation. If someone is left behind it is because they never made a commitment to have a personal relationship with Jesus. However, they still will receive a chance during the tribulation, even though the times will be extremely difficult.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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First of all no Christian has to go through the tribulation. Jesus is coming back for those who are looking for His return. Any Christian who is watching and waiting for Jesus is like the virgin who has her lamp filled with oil and more to spare.
Yes, I do believe there will be those who accept Jesus after the rapture, but because they chose to wait they will go through the tribulation.
As far as if that is fair, remember this:
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Who are we to judge God? The Bible says now is the day of salvation. If we choose to wait until the rapture, is it not our own fault that we go through the tribulation?
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:

The tribulation is going to be something like never seen before by mankind. We can't even imagine.

It isn't very realistic to believe that every saint would be protected from this terrible carnage.

The following scripture describes the ones converted, many of them Jews, during the tribulation.
Rev.7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb.
Vrs.14 Then he said to me. "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."

It doesn’t seem very fair to protect some of the saints from trouble and not others. Why would God allow some of His people to go through the tribulation and shelter others by snatching them away? At the time of the flood the righteous were all protected and the wicked all perished, there was no second chance once the door was shut.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

The saints will all ride upon the judgment that will destroy all of the wicked.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Again I think that tribulation get confused with God's Wrath. Jesus implied that we would see tribulation and greater tribulation as the time draws to an end "for Satan know his time is short". But the true pouring of the "bowls of God's Wrath" on the earth for the cleansing of the unbelievers we will not experence.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the church will not be around when God pours out his wrath.

Revelation 6:16,17 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who will be able to survive?"

(I see you are new here reflectingtheson - welcome to the Board. [Smile] )

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reflectingtheson
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quote:

quote:Originally posted by wparr:
Actually Noah would NOT support Pre-trib rapture.
Noah was PROTECTED thru the storm- not taken out of it.
Noah is more a picture of Salvation- being In Christ and protected by Him.
God is the one who shut and sealed the door of the ark - not noah. (A picture of Eternal Security)
quote:

My point exactly. If God went to all of that trouble to protect one family from the flood...

Yes My Grace, He did go through all that trouble to do what, save them out of the total destruction (Wrath of God) of the planet. Not a time of tribulation where they may decide to accept God's forgivness and then get in the ark with Noah. The people had 120 years to decide, and then the end came.

Again I think that tribulation get confused with God's Wrath. Jesus implied that we would see tribulation and greater tribulation as the time draws to an end "for Satan know his time is short". But the true pouring of the "bowls of God's Wrath" on the earth for the cleansing of the unbelievers we will not experence.

Lot is the same story for me, the day he left the cities sudden destruction not a time of tribulation for the inhabitants to go thru with 144 sealed preachers trying to change thier minds.

I think that is what Jesus is trying to teach us through these two stories, and it is wonderful that it is two, like "two witnesses", that life is going to go on here as it always has until that "Day of the Lord". As Peter says people will be asking "were is the promise of his coming?" which leads me to think now that there is not any secret appearing for that early removal of christians.

Also one other question for now. Who will see Him when He comes back?

Keep looking up
Rick

Believe me I was a true dyed in the wool pre-trib but as I continue to look deeper and this world gets closer, well...

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
His grace at he same time if the church went thru the tribulation theire would be a major seperation of the wheat and the tares. Sorry I'm still not convinced.God bless greg

The tribulation is going to be something like never seen before by mankind. We can't even imagine.

It isn't very realistic to believe that every saint would be protected from this terrible carnage.

The following scripture describes the ones converted, many of them Jews, during the tribulation.
Rev.7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb.
Vrs.14 Then he said to me. "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."

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oneyearandcounting
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His grace at he same time if the church went thru the tribulation theire would be a major seperation of the wheat and the tares.

Sorry I'm still not convinced.

God bless
greg

--------------------
Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Actually Noah would NOT support Pre-trib rapture.
Noah was PROTECTED thru the storm- not taken out of it.
Noah is more a picture of Salvation- being In Christ and protected by Him.
God is the one who shut and sealed the door of the ark - not noah. (A picture of Eternal Security)

My point exactly. If God went to all of that trouble to protect one family from the flood, do you not think that he will show his grace and mercy by protecting his church from the tribulation.

If the church went through the tribulation you can be sure there would be many martyred for not accepting the mark of the beast.

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wparr
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Actually Noah would NOT support Pre-trib rapture.

Noah was PROTECTED thru the storm- not taken out of it.

Noah is more a picture of Salvation- being In Christ and protected by Him.

God is the one who shut and sealed the door of the ark - not noah. (A picture of Eternal Security)

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HisGrace
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If you want to discuss Lot and Noah please feel free to open another thread AMH. This thread is about the Rapture.

When Adrian Rogers mentioned them in his sermon he used them as an example to show that God often removes his anointed ones from impending doom - nothing more.

He didn't say they were raptured and I am not saying they were raptured.

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AMH
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Now do not get mad, but think. The 50 points that TEXASGRANDMA has given is part of a certain belief system. Upon considering these 50 most if not all can be busted. Contrary to popular opinion around here busting belief systems does not interest me all that much as it is generally a feat I would only call trivial. What does interest me though is the truth. What the Lord has said. This is not trivial and cannot be busted, (although many have tried and fail, not the least Satan).

I have offered and make this offer one last time, even though the time has passed in this thread, to give an opportunity to discuss Lot and Noah. But I do not like quitters and getting personal. You must refrain from calling me the devil. As a member in good standing at the BBS I also have rights. If instead you wish to move on then I intend to discuss the New Testament starting with the verses that HisGrace gave in posting #2.

If we cross and your arguments win out then I will not tuck tail and run or call you names. I will give the credit. But if your arguments do not win the day then at least acknowledge that your system that I know is dear to you has problems. Be mindful that the truth has no such.

AMH

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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
I'm trying to figure out why we are still fighting about this issue. Obiously we aren't changing each others minds. And itisn't a salvation issue.I have said it before the only ones it would be a salvation issue too is the unsaved who have heard of the rapture and have decided to hold off on choosing Christ. But you know what if they hold off for any sign maybe
they are not his to begin with. God bless
greg

That's what message boards are all about -healthy debate and opinions. However, once in awhile you get someone who enjoys stirring up the pot with jabs and stabs, often attacking posters personally, and it adds an upleasant flavour to the threads.
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oneyearandcounting
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I'm trying to figure out why we are still fighting about this issue. Obiously we aren't changing each others minds. And itisn't a salvation issue.I have said it before the only ones it would be a salvation issue too is the unsaved who have heard of the rapture and have decided to hold off on choosing Christ. But you know what if they hold off for any sign maybe
they are not his to begin with.


God bless
greg

--------------------
Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.

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whitesands777
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quote:
Historical Doctrine of Imminency


1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.


2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

The early church may not have a complete understanding of endtimes...In Daniel he is told to seal up the words of the endtime prophecy until the time of the end.


Daniel 12

4"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."


Jesus also told His disciples that it wasn't given to them to know the season of the kingdom of God.


Acts 1

6"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons , which the Father hath put in his own power."


Who is the understanding given to ?

My guess is the people alive at the time of the end that are believers in Jesus.

Daniel 11

33"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days."


I don't think any of us know for sure just exactly how this will all play out...But I'd like to mention something I heard a radio talk show host said...That prophecy is like a sign on the road, when you're far away from the sign it's hard to understand, but as you get closer it becomes more clear and easier to understand.




As we get closer and more prophecies are fullfilled we'll probably understand more..We just have to wait and watch...

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AMH
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It is good that TEXASGRANDMA and HisGrace are back posting. Whether right or wrong there is no disgrace in trying; only quitting. You must know that there are people watching.

More respect now,
AMH

GrandmaJo320,

I require very little rest, but thanks all the same.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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This is why the rapture and the Second Coming are two different events. With the rapture we meet Jesus in the air. With the Second Coming, Jesus will step on the Mount of Olives and it will split.
When ever the rapture does take place, I am looking forward to it.
betty

--------------------
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Verse 6 would seem to suggest that the bridegroom who is Christ is already on His way when the call is made to go out and meet Him. After they go out to meet Him, as far as I know there is no mention that they hang around in the air, He keeps coming, bringing the Church with Him.

If this is describing Christ's second coming, this could mean that His feet have touched the ground and believers should go out and meet him.
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Bloodbought
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There is rapture, but is it pre-tribulation or pre-wrath and how long is it until those who are caught up return with Christ?

Matt 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Verse 6 would seem to suggest that the bridegroom who is Christ is already on His way when the call is made to go out and meet Him. After they go out to meet Him, as far as I know there is no mention that they hang around in the air, He keeps coming, bringing the Church with Him.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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I am not afraid and have said why I believe in the pre-trib rapture.

Here is a site I found that list some of the reasons I too have believe.

50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/50rapture.htm

Historical Doctrine of Imminency


1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.


2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.

4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1Thes 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.

5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.

6. Again, we are to "purify ourselves" in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.

7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.

Nature of the Church

(Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)

8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.

9. The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."

10. The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)

11. The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)

12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).

13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)

14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)

15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.

17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.

18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.

The Work of the Holy Spirit

19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.

20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the "lawless one" is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.

21. The "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.

22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)

The Hermeneutical Argument

23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truely literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.

24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming

25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.

26. The "four and twenty elders" in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.

27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.

28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).

29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.

30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.

31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.

Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.

33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.

35. At the time of the rapture, the world is not judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.

36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.

37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.

38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.

39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.

40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.

41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.

The Nature of the Tribulation

42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.

43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)

44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.

47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.

48. The Unity of Daniel's 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.

49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by "The Lord Himself."

50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come ... He who testifieth of these things saith

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Gramajo320
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AMH,

You will please give it a rest. Betty (Texas Grandma) is a very true born again believer in Jesus Christ and God blesses her in a mighty powerful way. You cannot seem to believe that everyone does not have to believe your way. I myself believe in the pretrib and rapture. Your words of sarcasm are not needed. Now why don't you just give this entire subject a rest once and for all.

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Gramajo320

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AMH
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That is all good and well Grandmajo320, but she does not seem to be inclined to “bless” us with any scripture backing up her claim. Is she able to compare Lot and Noah to her pre/mid/post trib faith? I guess we are not worthy to be blessed by God.

Again I say, how sad.

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reflectingtheson
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Hello all, I have been a frequent reader of this board for sometime now. This thread lead me to sign up. So here is my story and comments.

I have been a believer for 25+ years now and a believer in the pre-trib line for nearly as long since reading the Late Great Plant Earth in '78. It has only been in the last couple of years that all I thought I knew seemed to be bothering me. And yes I studied and took classes and read many book on the pre-trib and knew I knew it inside and out.
So something happen and I started a new with a more critical eye. The pre-trib view is, that all christians are suddenenly gone and a 7 year time starts of which the first 3-1/2 seem to be prosperous for the most part until the midpoint when the antichrist seats himself then to coin the phrase all hell breaks lose. Well thinking about it, how do you remove thousands, millions, ?billion people from the earth and not have devastation and turmoil that makes Katrina here in LA. look like a spring shower?

I agree with the statement made earlier that Tribulation is from the wicked, Wrath is of God.
With that I think the 70 weeks are finished and we are also finished the 2300 days of Daniel. We are now just waiting for the finish of Christ work in perparing a place and the Father saying go get your bride. Meanwhile Satan knows He is nearly completed and his time is growing short so tribulations are growing and becoming more intense.

Here is another belief that is sure to blow a fuse. I use to believe the pre-trib of the antichrist single man thought but as I see it now the antichrist is described as a beast and a beast in prophecy is always a system, nation, government. So I fear too many people will be looking for a man and be overtaken by the system that condemns them.

Then the days are to be shorten for the elect sake. Is that the hours in a day or the number of days. I don't see the Lord making the earth spin faster for the first idea and if he cut the number of days then how do you get a full 7 years? I think the tribuation of the saints at the end of this age gets so bad that there could be the possiblity of not one true believer left alive to see His glorious return.

Next the statement made throughout the bible both old and new testaments " and on that Day..." or " on the Day of the Lord...". If one looks at these statements the destruction of the planet is total. We are talking about all life on this planet dead. All things destroyed and all land masses changed "on that Day!".

Which leads me to my last point for now, after "...the the dead shall be raised incorruptable and we (who are still alive) shall be changed." I believe we go to the place that has been prepared for us for the thousand years while all the dead lay upon a void earth with satan bound there to contemplate all that he had done for the last 6000+ years. At the end of the thousand years the rest of the dead are raise and Satan deceives them again " for a season" to believe that they will be able to take over the New Jeruselem coming down from the sky. At that time they (Satan, his demons and the condemned from Cain to the end of this age) will be devoured by an everlasting fire to become an "ash under our feet" and it will be "as if they never existed" This is when the whole of the cosmos will be forever rid of sin and a new heaven and earth will appear for us to enjoy with our Lord and God FOREVER!!!

It really is a simple story when you let it flow like a clear mountain stream.

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Gramajo320
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AMH,

With all due respect Betty (Texas Grandma) does very well and God truly blesses her in a very big way.

--------------------
Gramajo320

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AMH
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Grandmajo320,

With all due respect, maybe you are not from Texas, but in Texas there comes a time to “put up”. Not everyone from Texas feels that they can “put up”. So they must do the other.

AMH

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Gramajo320
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AMH,

For in every way that you judge so shall you be judged. Only God can see into each person's heart and knows what is in each person's heart.

--------------------
Gramajo320

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AMH
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You people need to pay very close attention to the last postings by TEXASGRANDMA and cefaison.

TEXASGRANDMA admits that she has been a long time Christian. But is she able to discuss two very familiar Old Testament history accounts? Can she make even one reasonable comparison of Lot and Noah to her pre/mid/post trib faith?

This is what Jesus Christ has made as a prerequisite for our being able to understand “end time” things.

But of course, if it does not fit with our preconceived notions then we just simply throw it out. Or in this case we throw ourselves out.

How sad to have wasted so much time.

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cefaison
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Betty, Praise God for you!!! and God Bless you!!! I too am leaving this thread. Every time I look at it, I get more and more upset.
Christie

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TEXASGRANDMA
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I did NOT get my belief in the pre-trib from the left behind books. I got it from studying the Bible. I am 53 years old and I grew up believing in the pre-trib rapture. I had never heard of any other belief until I came to this board.
I was thinking this morning when I woke up about why it seems to bother me so when people try to tear down my belief in the rapture. The I realize that those who seek to destroy my trust in God taking His Church out before the rapture are thieves. Ten years ago our home in Texas was broken in to and 12 thousand dollars worth of stuff was stolen from the three of us. This was painful coming home and finding someone one had taken what took years to save for. Then I realized that what people here are trying to steal is far more precious. They are trying to steal the peace that God has given me that He will come for the Church before the tribulation. But, God began to speak to my heart. He reminded me that no one can steal what He has given me. If God had intended for His Church to go through the tribulation, God would have through Paul spoken about how Christians were to make it through the tribulation. But this was not the case, instead we are told over and over to look for the rapture. I am leaving this thread.
There are some who will not see the truth until the rapture takes place. The Bible says to be looking for Jesus' return, and I will obey the Bible. It is sad that the devil uses Christians to tear down someone's peace and to trash an author who's sole desire was to see people save, but then, these Christians can explain to God one day, how their arrogance and pride could make them tear down other Christians.
Me, I am resting in the peace and joy, God has put in my heart.

Just for the record, I did not use my tithes to buy those books. I would never steal from God. But, I am happy to share in a series of books that have brought many to salvation.
To compare books written by a Christian in love to reach the unsaved to porn is disgusting. May God deal with you over this in His way.

betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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AMH
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Let’s see-

Even though you have been taught these stories from your youth-

You people cannot discuss the story of Lot intelligently.

You people cannot discuss the story of Noah intelligently.

You do not understand them. (That seems a little strange doesn’t it?)

The Lord said that if you want to know what the “end times” are like then look to Noah and Lot. The Lord never said to wait 2000 years for some fiction books that contradict His word and then you will know what the “end times” will be like, (or did He).

I wonder why you people do not understand Lot and Noah.

There is such of a thing as brainwashing. To see an example you need look no further than your own bathroom mirror. Or better yet, look down at the shadow that you have “left behind” if you can see it. Much darkness here.

So far we have 4 pages of babbling, (you do know that there was a tower built in Babylon). It is time for the pre/mid/post trib mid-term Old Testament grade.

For Old Testament content the pre/mid/post trib people receive –

F

For Old Testament presentation the pre/mid/post trib people receive –

F

Shall we move to the New Testament and see what you kiddies have done to it.

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oneyearandcounting
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Yahsway amen.


Now to the Left Behind books. I read every one of them. Nice easy reading One book a day. All milk no meat.Hmm had a pre trib rapture didn't agree with that. on ave. $22.00 a book 13 books. Well I guess I tithed top that ministry huh. 7 trump which if I am noy mistaken is THe second coming of Jesus happines very early in the series. But Ithink my favorite part was how the Christians lied and stole. yes I know it was to the antichrist and he is the enemy but come on.


God bless

greg

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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.

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yahsway
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Well, rapture or not, The greatest revival and of souls being added to the church will be during the Great Tribulation.

John saw myrids of them who loved not their own lives even unto death. Shalom

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AMH
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Genesis 5 analysis:

Starting with Adam at year 0-

Adam died in year 930

Seth was born year 130-

Seth died in year 1042

If you continue this through the entire chapter you will see that Methuselah died the very same year that the flood took place.

Trib theory states that Enoch is to be likened to the rapture of the Church. This idea is incorrect as there would still be believers “left behind”.

Tribbers cannot even make the story of Noah come out right.

Are there any Trib believers out there that can add?

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TEXASGRANDMA
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I liked the books, bought them all. You don't, so let's leave it at this.
As far as music, I can listen to most anything except: heavy metal, rap, etc.
I bid you well.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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wparr
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I didn't attack the book.

I said I disliked them, can't I do that?

I have seen many people who elevate the books to the level of truth, they can quote the books, but not Scripture.

They end up following a man's fictional writings rather than God's Living Word.


This is happens when you read more into what someone posts, then what they say.

Attacking someone personaly because they dislike something you like isn't of God, or in The unity of His Spirit.

What if someone dislikes a song that has a special meaning to you?

Are they bad or wrong?

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TEXASGRANDMA
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sorry, but I have read several non fiction books by the author of the left behind books, and his love for God shines through. As a Christian, I cannot stay silent when a fellow Christian's book that he wrote in order to wittness to the unlost, is under attack. I feel he has been been a great blessing to me and others.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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wparr
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Sorry for getting upset.

But I just posted a dislike for a FICTIONAL set of books. and I get attacked.

I NEVER attacked the pre-trib view, or pre-tribbers, so it was WRONG to accuse me of that.


I NEVER said that pre-tribbers were in the same camp as serial killers and porno.

I was responding to the statement that many people have come to faith because of the left behind books.

I was showing that, it of itself, that doesn't mean anything - except to show The Awesomeness of God.

Romans 8:28
(28) And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Just because God causes something to work for His good, doesn't mean it's OF God - BIG difference.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Betty
You don't know what you are talking about.

God IS NOT going to hold me accountable becase I dislike A WORK OF FICTION.

What Bible are YOU reading???


People so lack discernment.

Just because GOD USES SOMETHING does not mean it's OF GOD.

God uses serial killers to bring people to Him.

Are they "inspired" by God???

God has used porn movies to convict people of their sin, bringing them to a saving knowledge of Him.

So shall we start showing those porn movies because God used them???
-------------
I believe your own words speak for themselves.


God bless you GramaJo, I know you and I are looking forward to when Jesus comes back and we have perfect bodies free from OCD and free from pain.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Gramajo320
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Betty,

Another amen to your most recent posting with which I agree! God bless you lots!

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Gramajo320

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wparr
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Did I SAY THAT?????

I NEVER MADE A COMMENT ABOUT PRE-TRIB PEOPLE.

TRY READING before commenting.

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TEXASGRANDMA
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so people who believe in the pre-trib rapture are in the same catagory of a serial killer and a porn lover. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Well I am in the same boat with some great people like the Apostle Paul, John Hagee and others. Not a bad place to be.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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wparr
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Show me WHERE I judged the person who wrote the books?

I NEVER MADE A COMMENT ABOUT THE WRITER ONE WAY OR ANOTHER?

So DON'T ACCUSE ME OF SOMETHING I DIDN'T DO!!!!

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Gramajo320
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Betty,

Amen to your posting and I am in complete agreement with you! God bless you lots!

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Gramajo320

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TEXASGRANDMA
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A person who is a Christian wrote this books. Who are you to judge this person. He wrote this book because he felt it was God's will. I think only God has a right to judge him, not you nor I. If your read his non fiction book about why he wrote the book, you will find that he did indeed feel he was inspired by God to write them. Before the left behind books the person had only written non fiction books. When God impressed him to write these books, he prayed for God to bring someone who had written fiction to write them and God answered that prayer.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
wparr
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Betty
You don't know what you are talking about.

God IS NOT going to hold me accountable becase I dislike A WORK OF FICTION.

What Bible are YOU reading???


People so lack discernment.

Just because GOD USES SOMETHING does not mean it's OF GOD.

God uses serial killers to bring people to Him.

Are they "inspired" by God???

God has used porn movies to convict people of their sin, bringing them to a saving knowledge of Him.

So shall we start showing those porn movies because God used them???

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TEXASGRANDMA
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And I fear that those who teach the post trib rapture give people the sense that they can wait until the anti-Christ comes on the scene and then get saved.
For the person who hates the left behind books, if they turn out to be true, then you may have to explain why you hate the books that God inspired the writer to write. I do know many have been saved because of those books. Probably more people saved from those books than any one us have been responsible for.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
WhiteEagle
That's why is sooo dislike the left behind books/movies, people use them to interpet the Bible.


As I've said, I'm not in ANY of the trib camps, I'm just looking to The Blessed Hope of Jesus' coming.

The rapture isn't clear in scripture, God didn't give us a very clear picture of future times, so why spend so much time and energy trying to make it clear.

Maybe if we spent more time and energy on things like:

THE GREAT COMMISION

Matthew 28:19-20
(19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."


The purpose of Revelation is to reveal Jesus, we read that book of The Bible to LEARN MORE ABOUT JESUS.

Guess what I get out of it folks

JESUS WINS [clap2] [youpi] [hyper] [dance]

He fights a mighty battle and satan loses [BooHoo]

Jesus is Holy

God WILL NOT be mocked

His wrath WILL be poured out

His justice WILL prevail

He will destroy this sin filled planet and make a NEW Heaven and earth.


And actually I'm getting ready tu study The Book of Revelation

Why?

Because this past Sunday, as I was walking thru the store at the truck stop I serve at (I volunteer as a truck stop chaplain) a couple of people stoped me and said:
"There's the chaplain, lets ask him. Hey chaplain we have some questions got a minute?"

They then started asking me questions about Israel, the land being given away, the hurricanes, all how they pertain to the end times.

I need to be better prepared to answer questions in this area, because more and more people will start asking questions.

This opens the door for me to give them Jesus. [Bible] [Cross]

I agree for us to have a knowledge of Revelation and end times is crucial as we see the signs of the birth pains prophecied and people are asking questions, and like you point out, it's TIME and opportunity to witness, and all the more reason we must know what we know.

As you probably realize there is an explicit blessing to all those who read Revelation. God bless your study. I certainly do not claim to know how it all will play out, but each time i study it, I do see more of Christ and more of the urgency of leading people to know Him.

I fear that those who preach pre-trib to unbelievers will lead many to feel they can get saved after the Rapture like in the left behind books, and maybe they can be saved, as God will have His 144,000 witnesses after the Church is gone, but .... waiting is not the answer.

And those who get saved so they can hope to avoid the tribulation will have a severe faith shake-up, and many may begin to doubt.

It's better to keep an open mind on this subject.

Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



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