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Topic: I need some input...please.
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I do NOT need your respect. I only need the respect of those I care about. Fortuntly, God has blessed me with those who indeed respect and do care about me.
I don't lose any sleep that you do not need anything of me. I have given myself to God and my family for their use.
Like I said one day the rapture will happen and you can discuss with God personally how you found His methods to be in error.
Have a nice Day!
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
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posted
Some of you may have noticed that I am not being very nice to you.
There are at least two reasons for this.
1 I have absolutely no respect for the pre/mid/post trib belief system
2 You have absolutely nothing that I desire
Since you have nothing that I want, I am not motivated in any way to sweet talk you out of any thing.
You see pre/mid/post trib belief system people; your “wool” is not desirable. That is because your “doctrine” is full of holes.
There is some advice for you though it is not exactly free.
17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. (Revelation 3:17-18)
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
AMH
You have got to be one of the most condescending Christian I have met. I have repeatedly told you, that I did NOT get my "theory" of the pre-trib rapture from movies. I have taken 4 Bible Studies in 3 different Churches and 3 different teachers. Yes, I am quite capably of reading my Bible (which hubby and I do every day together) and of attending Bible studies.
My husband always says consider the source. I my friend consider you a mean, bitter and vindictive person.
GOODBYE,
betty
P.S. for anyone who comes along and says how can a grandma act like this. Well you can only insult and poke a grandma so long until she fights back!
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
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posted
Well,
We don’t have much time for the likes of those mentioned in the last posting.
Before we move on to our next topic it is only fitting that we should at least touch on the one subject that the pre/mid/post trib people think that they have mastered.
FICTION BOOKS
Some here at the BBS are very proud of the learning that they have acquired through the astute study of fiction. But in thier mad dash to learn all that they can about fiction it would seem that they have left most of Literature behind.
Because it has been found that most pre/mid/post trib belief system people have a very low attention span I will give only one brief example.
Chapter II of Milton’s “Paradise Lost” opens with Satan scurrying off from his kingdom, Pandemonium, in order to spy out the Earth. Left behind are his minions to their own devices. They need entertainment to count the time while their “master” is detained.
I know, “Paradise Lost” is another of those very old books that we no longer need pay any attention to, besides John Milton was not a pre/mid/post trib kind of guy.
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
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AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
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posted
Let’s see-
The pre/mid/post trib people don’t know-
1 Mathematics per Genesis 5
2 How to apply Noah
3 How to apply Lot
4 Where to apply Leviticus 26:18
5 The meaning of Isaiah 14
6 Esther and her uncle
7 The parables of Jesus better than a hedonistic king
8 The first 1800 years history of the Christians
9 Modern philosophy
But, (and get this) after examining all that they don’t know, the pre/mid/post trib people still want us to take seriously their claim to the judgment seat allowing them to interpret the New Testament for us.
Maybe I am just examining all the wrong subjects? Maybe things like the Old Testament, math, history, etc. are not pertinent subjects to this discussion of ours? Maybe solid subjects are too hard for us to learn and they may take to much time?
Maybe we should examine more liberal subjects. How about art? Shall we examine this subject?
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
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whitesands777
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Member # 3424
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Watcher:
Whitesands
II Peter 3:10-13
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.
My point here is that Peter specifically mentions the Day of the Lord as being a thief in the night...Pre trib doctrine says that the thief in the night refers to rapture only..However this teaching contradicts scripture as shown in 2 Peter...
quote:
"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.
The church not mentioned after Rev 4...This pre trib "proof" is not base on scripture at all..You can't base a doctrine on what's not mentioned...There's alot of things that aren't mentioned in the Bible but it doesn't mean they aren't around or don't exist. Making doctrine on what's not mentioned is how you get false teachings... Doctrine is based on what IS written.
quote:
If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.
Every person that died in Christ will be coming from the earth as their bodies are ressurected..How are they going to be bumping into one another if they are all coming from the same place, the earth...We rise to meet Him in the air and return to the earth to defeat the antichrist at the battle of Armageddon.
The Bible says we will be like Him when we recieve our new bodies..Jesus passed through walls...Suddenly appeared here and there...Our God who is perfect knows what He is doing.
Posts: 501 | Registered: May 2004
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AMH
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Member # 4895
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posted
It is well known that most modern Christians do not study very much. That would definitely have to include this crowd. So maybe we can talk further about the movies, a place that I am sure you spend a lot of time at.
The stoic Marcus Aurelius was what is considered by most scholars, (there’s that bad word again) a good king. The reason that I choose Aurelius is because you have probably viewed the movie Gladiator, (you know, that movie where there is a lot of neat chariot action scenes).
In that movie did you happen to see any Christians in the arena, pre/mid/post trib believers?
Aurelius was one of the central Antonines. Most of his contemporary Caesars including his son Commodus liked to butcher Christians for sport. But Aurelius was not a mindless monster, he was a thinker.
Marcus Aurelius believed that the individual was obligated to the state and that that was a matter of law. This was the reason that Aurelius condoned the brutalization of helpless innocent Christians during his reign.
You see pre/mid/post trib believers, the early Christians were at war with the world and Aurelius knew and understood this. Maybe it was never declared or explained properly to Aurelius but he comprehended Luke 14:33 much better than you do. Aurelius knew that this particular statement of the Nazarene’s was an ultimatum.
Jesus was saying in Luke 14:33 that there is to be no terms for surrender except this-
That the surrender is going to be complete and unconditional.
It is so convenient that the pre/mid/post trib Christians have called a truce with the world. You know what kind of truce I mean. If you don’t bother me, then I won’t bother you. And to cement their agreement with the world they even acknowledge their “obligation” to its system.
How very convenient.
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
It will not make me mad and I feel quite able to show you how I deal with the things you call issues. I do not expect that I will change your beliefs however and in the end we will have to agree to disagree unless the Spirit moves you in some other direction. But I am always willing to share scripturally why I might not believe what you believe or why I believe what I believe and am willing to look at what scripture might have to contradict me and correct any thing I might be in error on.
Perhaps at some point we can also discuss Mordecai, but it will have to be next week. This week is always a very difficult one for me time wise ( the first week of the month)I do not have much for board time. Shall we make a date?
I am off for today I have to work outside the house today and cover 2 of my husbands stores for him, but I will try to get back this evening.
Shalom.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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AMH
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Member # 4895
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posted
Yes helpforhomeschooler,
The pre/mid/post trib belief system that is so cherished here is totally dependent on the 70th week of Daniel having not yet been administered. The 70th week of Daniel is the foundation of any pre/mid/post trib doctrine.
Believing in a yet future 70th week of Daniel creates many problems that neither you nor any other pre/mid/post trib believer can cope with, (including the “big boys”).
Shall we take a closer look at a couple, if that is it does not make you to mad?
1 The pre/mid/post trib assumption that all that is predicted to happen happens in a 7 year period at the end of the age.
2 The pre/mid/post trib assumption that nothing is like what will happen in this 7 year period.
(To give credit as promised helpforhomeschooler, the way that you and Caretaker were able to lift Esther’s uncle to the heights such as that of Isaiah 14:13 does take great skill, I for one am in awe.)
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Watcher
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Member # 3589
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posted
Whitesands
II Peter 3:10-13
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.
Born Again
The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?
"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.
Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army’s members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
Dear brother bloodbought, you write my sentiments exactly quote:
I don’t know who thought up this pre-trib stuff, it doesn’t sound right. There is only the second coming of Christ not a second coming to the air and then a third coming to the earth.
The hour Christ leaves His Heavenly place to return He will not stop until His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives. When He comes every eye will see Him and them that pierced Him.
The first time He came He brought salvation, the next time He is coming in judgment, those who are ready and covered by the blood will be saved and those who are not will be lost, there is no second chance.
I don’t know when He will come, but I am certain that He will come and I agree with those who say the most important thing is to be ready. It is so important to be ready to be caught up and not caught out.
I assume that you agree that there will be a rapture or being caught up, but like me you are probably saying that both His Second Coming and us being caught up to Him is all part of the same event, which is what I am saying.
The Lord Yahshua-Jesus comes with the angels and with the glorified saints either from heaven or from the dead in Christ, they shall rise first and we who are alive and are Christians at that time shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye and shall ascend like Bethany into the clouds to meet the Oncoming Jesus in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The word “meet” in the phrase “meet the Lord in the air” is in Greek apantesis, which means “I go out to meet an oncoming person, and when I meet him/her, I turn around and go back with that person to where I came from.”
The word "apantesis" or "meet" only occurs three times in the NT, and here is a second one:
Acts 28:15
And from there, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet {Greek, apantesis} us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
Christian brethren came from Rome to Appii forum to meet or appantesis Paul, and when they had met Paul at Appii forum, the Christian brethren from Rome turned around and accompanied Paul to Rome where they had come from. So shall it be in the end of the age.
I came from earth in the rapture and so when I go up to meet the Lord in the air above earth, I turn around and go down with the Lord who is on His way to the mount of Olives on the east side of Jerusalem, to go split it into two halves.
May the LORD God of Israel bless us all on this BBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) of Yahshua-Jesus of Bethlehem of Judah (Micah 5:2)
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whitesands777
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posted
Here Peter is addressing the church about the day of the Lord.
Now pre tribulation rapture teachings say that the day of the Lord and the rapture are two different events seprated by 7 years...However, there is absolutely no scripture that says this...
According to pre trib doctrine the rapture is "imminent" (thief in the night) and the day of the Lord is not imminent because of the signs...
However, this teaching is in error and the proof is below...Peter himself says that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night...Other scriptures validate this but they also indicate that the day will not come as a thief in the night on those that are children of the light.
2 Peter 3
10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night ; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?""
Imminency doctrine in its application of proving pre trib rapture does not seem to be accurately built on scripture as shown in 2 Peter...Jesus is returning as a thief in the night but this doesn't mean the rapture is pre trib because Peter specifically mentions the day of the Lord being as a thief in the night. Just like Jesus said in Matthew 24 when He said He would return immediatley after the tribulation of those days.
Peter here addressing the church and counseling them on what kind of persons they should be.
And Peter says we should be looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God...
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
What a wonderful surprise to see sweet Linda, in the room. We missed you very much. God bless you, Sister.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
There will be a pretribulation rapture because the 70th week of Daniel is a time appointed to the people of Daniel - the Hebrew people. It is not a time appointed to the Bride of Christ.
The time of Daniel's 70th week is a time when the people of God will be turned to God- a time of repentence that is illustrated in the feasts as the days of awe.
There is nothing for the Bride of Christ to repent of we are NOW wholly righteous by the Blood of Christ and the sealing and indwelling of the Holy Spirit and Jesus is not coming to us as the High Priest to announce the determination of our fate on the day of atonement.
The whole of scripture speaks to a pre Daniel's 70th week removal of the Bride of Christ from the earth allegorically, through the feasts, through the story of Noah, through the prophesy of Jacob over Ephraim, and on and on in more places than I today have time to list.
Not only are we not appointed to wrath, but we are not appointed to the days of Awe, to the season of repentance, to judgements that come prior to the pouring out of God's wrath on the earth.
We are the BRIDE and we are wholly righteous NOW, not citizens of this earth, seated with HIM now in a heavenly kingdom.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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AMH
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posted
WhiteEagle,
Your point about Christians being soldiers is more valid than most think, (when they think).
The ancients had basically two types of soldiers.
One type was on the move. This moving type of soldier had nothing as they lived off the good land that, (generally unbeknownst to them) the Great God did provide.
Then there was the other type of soldier that did not move. This soldier and army remained stationary. This was because they had much to lose of this world’s goods. They built themselves great walled cities and then tried desperately to defend those cities. No city of the ancient’s ever proved to be unattainable. Every one of those cities fell to the moving soldier.
Jesus did say-
31) Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32) Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33) So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:31-22)
The true cost of discipleship is found in the prior verse and can be crossed referenced many times over such as in Luke 9:23-26.
There are many in Christendom that have built their own little fiefdoms. They defend these fiefdoms to the last not considering that the Lord is on the move.
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
In Daniel it says "they that understand amoung the people shall instruct many". And "the people that do know their God shall be strong and do great exploits".
Who would understand scriptures reguarding the return of Jesus ? Christians. [/QUOTE]
I read Daniel recently and that verse jumped out at me.
"The people that do KNOW their God shall be strong and do great exploits."
How awesome is That?!!!
We're soldiers.!!!! For the Living God.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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AMH
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Member # 4895
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posted
Caretaker,
My pre/mid/post trib friends have a problem that maybe you can help them with.
Do you watch TV Caretaker? Have you seen the news clips of the people, say in Japan, where they are in this building and then things begin to shake? Did you notice their reactions to the shaking? Their first inclination is to grab something. Then they just want to leave. Then if they are lucky, the shaking stops as they pray.
You say that I am sarcastic. I say that you are a hard task master. The people want out but you will not let them go. They begin to go but you force them back into the building.
Caretaker, why don’t you admit that everything that you have ever written on this site is nothing more than opinion?
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WhiteEagle
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posted
Regarding the confusion over which events are God's wrath versus the Great Tribulation.
The Great Tribulation events are NOT God's WRATH.
Believers are beheaded and persecuted during the Great Tribulation. Why would God allow that during HIS days of Wrath?
He wouldn't and doesn't. HIS DAYS of WRATH come after this terrible persecution of God's people.
Remember history when the CHURCH first began and all the persecutions they endured, they were torn apart by lions, executed by sword, burned alive by Nero, and others.
We know this was not God's wrath, but Satan's wrath on Christ.
All through the past 2000 years there have been people killed for their testimony of Christ to this present day. If you read the Fox's Book of Martyrs and also read the current ministry Voice of the martyrs one can see that persecution never stopped and that in other areas of our world many Christians are being killed, maimed, imprisoned RIGHT NOW: TODAY.
God's Church is STRONGER in those areas that are getting persecuted. Americans have no clue and have come up with the Pre-trib Rapture to glorify themselves as being above receiving any persecution or tribulation.
The Tribulation is NOT God's Wrath. God's Wrath is poured out after the last martyr is slain and the Church is raptured in preparation for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, which happens to be the Battle of Armageddon. Rev.19
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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reflectingtheson
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Member # 5083
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posted
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Bloodbought:
If they don’t believe and get saved through the Word they will not believe by graves opening.
quote:Originally posted by HisGrace:
I think it would be a pretty scary feeling to be left behind.
Even though I think now, after being a pre-trib follower, that we all go at once at the end on "that geart and terrible day of the Lord" I think that as believers we should hope for the best yet perpare ourselves and our loved ones for the worse as in the ten virgins.
quote:
So we MUST do AWHOLE lot more than pray for the lost
We MUST show them Jesus in our lives
We MUST tell them about Jesus, with our mouths, using HIS Word.
Amen. Without the light of our lives whom will be saved. I think it would be a shameful feeling if the rocks start shouting out Jesus before his own.
God save us,
Rick
Posts: 43 | From: Baton Rouge, LA | Registered: Sep 2005
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wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The most important thing we can do as Christians is to pray for the lost and keep looking for Jesus.
betty
While prayer is important, we are to do a whole lot more than pray for the lost.
Matthew 28:19-20
(19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Jesus COMMANDED us to make Disciples of the lost, Teaching them.
Acts 1:6-8
(6) So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
(7) He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
(8) but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
Jesus tells not NOT TO BE CONCERNED about when the end will come, but rather focus on being HIS WITNESS to ALL the lost.
The want to know when Jesus is going to restore the Kingdom - and He tells them,
GO SHOW AND TELL PEOPLE ABOUT ME
LIVE FOR ME
Witness is the word Martyr
Maybe- Just maybe
WE SHOULD TAKE HEED TO WHAT JESUS SAYS HERE.
Romans 10:13-17
(13) for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
(14) How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
(15) How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
(16) However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
(17) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
So we MUST do AWHOLE lot more than pray for the lost
We MUST show them Jesus in our lives
We MUST tell them about Jesus, with our mouths, using HIS Word.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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HisGrace
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
If they don’t believe and get saved through the Word they will not believe by graves opening.
I think it would be a pretty scary feeling to be left behind.
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whitesands777
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Even though they may not be affected directly by the plaques they will have to be affective, indirectly. Living through the tribulation will be no picnic. The anti-Christ and his people will be after anyone who does not have the mark to kill them.
The most important thing we can do as Christians is to pray for the lost and keep looking for Jesus.
betty
You're right Betty....I would rather be caught up before all that stuff...
If we know the prophecies that Jesus gave us and we watch and obey Him we'll be ready when the time comes.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
Even though they may not be affected directly by the plaques they will have to be affective, indirectly. Living through the tribulation will be no picnic. The anti-Christ and his people will be after anyone who does not have the mark to kill them.
The most important thing we can do as Christians is to pray for the lost and keep looking for Jesus.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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whitesands777
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace: And what do you think is going to happen to those who do not accept the mark of the beast? Many will be martyred.
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Yes, they will be martyred and some may starve but that is not God's wrath....It clearly says that sores come upon those that have the mark.
So, a Christian wouldn't take the mark right ?
And if you don't have the mark then you won't get that sore right ?
So we can conclude that the people that didn't take the mark didn't suffer God's wrath...
Who is persecuting them by not letting them buy and sell because they wouldn't take his mark or worship him ? satan is doing the persecution there...Not God.
quote:
The very reason why the church will be lifted out before the tribulation begins. They have no role in fulfilling the prophesies set out in the OT.
In Daniel it says "they that understand amoung the people shall instruct many". And "the people that do know their God shall be strong and do great exploits".
Who would understand scriptures reguarding the return of Jesus ? Christians.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
AMH
"From your side there is much “teaching” going on. One after the other you bring scripture upon scripture to “prove” yourselves “right”. You bring Doctors and websites and on and on.
So you tell me, who is the deceiver?"
so if you are saying we are using scripture to prove ourselves is making us a deceiver, would you also be saying the Word of God is false?
if you hear the trumpet at the time you do not expect are you going to refuse to go?
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
The purpose of the great tribulation is to bring ISRAEL back to God, the people getting saved will be JEWS - NOT gentiles.
The age of the gentiles will be over.
The very reason why the church will be lifted out before the tribulation begins. They have no role in fulfilling the prophesies set out in the OT.
You may say that they will be there to convert unbelievers. That will be the assigment for the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel - to convert many of their own, plus others.
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AMH
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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2005 09:19 PM Profile for AMH Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote 4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (Matthew 24:4)
Jesus opened His teachings of the “end times” with a warning of a coming deception.
In this thread I have been accused of working for the great deceiver. But if you would look closely at what I have written all that I have said is that your pre/mid/post trib belief system is weak. Basically, nothing more has been said from this side.
From your side there is much “teaching” going on. One after the other you bring scripture upon scripture to “prove” yourselves “right”. You bring Doctors and websites and on and on.
So you tell me, who is the deceiver?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In this whole thread I have seen your sarcasm, your derisions, and accusations, but very little of substance to lend credibility to your posts.
It is the Word which is our foundation of faith, and yet your posts are almost devoid of the Word and you denigrate those who substantiate their belief from the Word and with the Word. It is easier for you to attack the messenger rather than the message.
2 Tim. 3:
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
In the Rapture our Lord Jesus gathers His Bride, in whom His spirit dwells, (He who now letteth), from
the earth prior to that man of sin being revealed, "2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
In verse 2:7 we see the term "he who now letteth", this is a direct reference to the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit, who indwells all believers. Until He be taken away, and THEN that man of sin is revealed.
Please note that the lifting away of believers is NOT the second Advent for Christ does not set foot upon
the mount of Olives, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Rapture
Matt. 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went
forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather
to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to
the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Thess. 4:17-5:6
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail
upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of
darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the
love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)
The Coming of the Lord
Matt. 24:29-31
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.
Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.
We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).
Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of
grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and
half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward
the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his
name one.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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AMH
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4) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (Matthew 24:4)
Jesus opened His teachings of the “end times” with a warning of a coming deception.
In this thread I have been accused of working for the great deceiver. But if you would look closely at what I have written all that I have said is that your pre/mid/post trib belief system is weak. Basically, nothing more has been said from this side.
From your side there is much “teaching” going on. One after the other you bring scripture upon scripture to “prove” yourselves “right”. You bring Doctors and websites and on and on.
So you tell me, who is the deceiver?
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Paul designates the Lord’s resurrection as "first fruits." This is important. The term fruits in the Greek is a singular term, but represents a plural number (what is called a collective noun). The concept of a "first portion" or "first fruit" is a familiar one. In the natural order, the first fruit of any crop would involve more than one, thus, the NASB’s translation first fruits. Interestingly, Matthew 27:52-53 states, "and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many." These individuals should be included in the first fruits of the general resurrection.
The essential point that we can deduce from 1 Corinthians 15 is that the separation of one phase of the resurrection from another does not nullify the designation the general resurrection. Therefore, the indication in Revelation 20 that a resurrection will occur in close proximity to the beginning of the millennium is consistent with the teachings of the apostle Paul. John limits this particular resurrection to those beheaded for refusing to actively participate in the worship of Antichrist. Killed for their faithfulness to Christ, the beheaded faithful are blessed because they have "a part (literally, to experience along with others [Louw/Nida, § 90.83]) in the first resurrection." Only by spiritualizing this passage and ignoring the textual details can this group be made to represent all believers of all the ages. John clearly intends a smaller group, every single one of them, beheaded.
Consequently, we are able to posit that John’s resurrection to life and his first resurrection both refer to a general multi-phased resurrection of the righteous. It stretches from the resurrection of Christ and those raised with Him (Mat. 24:52-53), to those raised at the Rapture/Parousia (1 Cor. 15:23), to those beheaded martyrs raised in close proximity to the beginning of the millennium (Rev. 20:4-5). This is the first resurrection.
John does not designate the resurrection that will follow the millennium as the "second resurrection." Probably the reason John does not do this is that the resurrection after the millennium will be distinctively different from the first. In Revelation 20:5, John records that "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed." This by definition must involve the wicked that have not been raised to this point in biblical chronology. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the resurrection unto judgment, which John alluded to in John 5:38-39. This judgment is generally called the white throne judgment. John states that anyone’s whose name is not found in the book of life such a one will be thrown into the lake of fire—the second death.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Watcher
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The 3 Resurrections of Revelation
The pre-trib. rapture/resurrection of Rev.4:1
And the two resurrections of Rev.20:4-6
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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Revelation 20:4-6 mentions a “first resurrection” and identifies those involved as “blessed and holy.” The second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20:14) has no power over these individuals. The first resurrection, then, is the raising of all believers. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of the just” (Luke 14:14) and the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29).
The first resurrection takes place in various stages. Jesus Christ Himself (the “firstfruits,” 1 Corinthians 15:20), paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him. There was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints (Matthew 27:52-53) which should be included in our consideration of the first resurrection. Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4).
Revelation 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the second resurrection as the wicked judged by God prior to being cast into the lake of fire. The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” (John 5:29).
The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom. The last of the righteous are raised to reign “with Christ a thousand years” (Revelation 20:4), but the “rest of the dead [that is, the wicked] lived not again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
1 Thess 4:
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Rev. 19:
1: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great ***** , which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3: And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4: And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5: And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7: Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8: And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9: And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15: And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17: And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18: That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19: And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev. 19:8
"To her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev. 19:14
"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
Notice the fine linen white and clean is the righteousness of saints, which are in heaven.
We will then return with the Lord to the earth, and He will destroy the wicked and establish the Millennial Kingdom, and His saints will reign with Him on earth for one thousand years (Rev. 20:1-7).
Rev. 20:
1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It is those who are beheaded who are resurrected at His coming with His saints, and the beheaded will also sit upon thrones along with the saints clothed in white linen who have come with Christ.
One should realize that the first resurrection is not a single event, but a series of events beginning with the resurrection of Christ.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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reflectingtheson
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I guess my point of John calling this the first resurrection as he wrote this in AD 96 was missed. Or maybe John got it wrong or he hear it wrong from God or God Misspoke?
Wait I think I got it this is the first resurrection after the first resurection. Can we see how confusing this gets. And it should not be.
So if someone could tell me which first resurrection this is in verse 5 of chapter 20 and help smooth the confusion.
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wparr
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The purpose of the great tribulation is to bring ISRAEL back to God, the people getting saved will be JEWS - NOT gentiles.
The age of the gentiles will be over.
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Bloodbought
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If they don’t believe and get saved through the Word they will not believe by graves opening.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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That is talking about those who get saved after the rapture. Those who die for the cause of Christ. You can bet those who knew the truth, but rejected it will be running to the Church when their loved ones are raptured away to Heaven.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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reflectingtheson
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Here is a Question?
How many resurrections are there? As I see it there are two. the resurrection of the rightous before the 1000 year and the resurrection of the lost after the 1000 year. So if the first of the two are before then how can there be a resurrection of the believeing dead and change of the living believer AKA pre-trib rapture and then another of the new believers of the great tribulation and then another of the lost for judgement.
(Rev.20:4)… [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5)… This is the first resurrection.
This verse sure is at the end of the book. Notice that the saints who were beheaded because they would not take the mark of the beast are in the first resurrection. It was called first by John looking into the future from 96 A.D. after Jesus’ resurrection. This tells us that there is no resurrection and rapture before the tribulation mark of the beast.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
You'll notice that the first bowl is specifically poured out on those with the mark of the beast... The church doesn't need to be gone before then to escape that because true believers won't take the mark.
And what do you think is going to happen to those who do not accept the mark of the beast? Many will be martyred.
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
quote:
from whitesands - 15 " Behold, I come as a thief . Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."
This understanding would tie perfectly with the parable Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 about the man not being overtaken unaware because he was watching...And also when Paul says that the day comes as a thief in the night and that we are not children of the night but of the day that the day would not take us unaware. [/QB]
Thief in the night merely means suddenly without warning. Believers will be aware of the signs, but many will be asleep, and won't be watching for the Rapture or the Second Coming. This scripture says that we should be aware unless we be shamed.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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THE CASE FOR THE IMMINENT RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH
Dr. Tim LaHaye
Pre Trib Study Group
Dallas, TX -December 2000
From the earliest days of church history, Christians have believed in the imminent or "at any moment" return of Christ. It was the driving spiritual force from the very beginning of Christianity and is still the driving force for evangelism, holy living and missionary vision to this day. Whenever the church has lost this "at any moment" consciousness it has become carnal, worldly and complacent about fulfilling the great commission as commanded by our Lord.
The idea for this presentation came to me at last year's Pre Trib Research Study Group when Dr. Earl Radmacher said, in effect, that the literal interpretation of Scripture was the foundation stone of prophetic truth. I had always thought that there were two keys to understanding prophecy, a literal interpretation of Scripture and the separation of Israel and the Church. Upon further reflection and study, I have come to agree with Dr. Earl, and today propose that the literal interpretation of the Bible is indeed the foundation on which all prophecy is built. Building upon that foundation are the next two building blocks, or keys, to properly understanding God's marvelous prophetic plan for the future of mankind. The first is the separation of the church and Israel followed by a belief in the imminent return of the Savior.
This paper is an attempt to make a case for the imminent, or "at any moment," return of Christ to rapture His church. Jesus promised in John 14: 1-3 that He would come back for the Church and take her to be with Him in the Father's house. This is the first and only reference of our Lord to the rapture in Scripture and represents the first phase of the "Second Coming of Christ." The Apostle Paul calls the second phase, "the Glorious Appearing." (Titus 2: 13) Both are rightly referred to as "the Second Corning," but it is better to distinguish them by mentioning either the Rapture or the Glorious Appearing. We shall see that the Glorious Appearing of Christ to this earth to set up His millennial kingdom is not imminent, in fact it cannot happen today, for there are at least thirty prophesied events that must occur before Christ comes physically to this earth.
Bible prophecy is not obscure in distinguishing between these two phases of our Lord's Second Corning. We are indebted to Dr. Thomas Ice for the following chart listing the Bible references for these two phases.1
Rapture Passages
John 14:1-3 1Thessalonians 1:10 Hebrews 9:28
Romans 8:19 1 Thessalonians 2:19 James 5:7-9
1 Corinthians 1:7-8 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 1 Peter 1:7. 13
1 Corinthians 15:51-53 1 Thessalonians 5:9.23 1 Peter 5:4
1 Corinthians 16:22 2 Thessalonians 2:1 1 John 2:28-3:2
Philippians 3:20-21 1 Timothy 6:14 Jude 1:21
Philippians 4:5 2 Timothy 4:1.8 Revelation 2:25
Colossians 3:4 Titus 2: 13 Revelation 2:25
Second Coming Passages
Daniel 2:44-45 Mark 13:14-27 1 Peter 4:12-13
Daniel 7:9-14 Mark 14: 62 2 Peter 3:1-14
Daniel 12:1-3 Luke 21:25-28 Jude 1:14-15
Zechariah 12:10 Acts 1:9-11 Revelation 1:7
Zechariah 14:1.15 Acts 3:19-21 Revelation 19:11-20:6
Matthew 13:41 1 Thessalonians 3:13 Revelation 22:7,12,20
Matthew 24:15-31 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
Matthew 26:64 2 Thessalonians 2:8
The above list is not complete, but will serve as a start for your own further research. A careful examination of these Scriptures will highlight the fact that they do not talk about the same event. The Biblical literalists will discover there are at least fifteen differences between them. The next chart taken from my book, Are We Living in the END TIMES? , lists them.2
Rapture / Blessed Hope
1. Christ comes in the air for His own
2. Rapture of all Christians
3. Christians taken to the Father's house
4. No judgment on earth at Rapture
5. Church taken to heaven at Rapture
6. Rapture imminent -could happen any moment
7. No signs for Rapture
8. For believers only
9. Time of joy
10. Before the "day of wrath" (Tribulation)
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ
13. Marriage of the Lamb
14. Only His own see Him
15. Tribulation begins
Glorious Appearing
1. Christ comes with His own to earth
2. No one raptured
3. Resurrected saints do not see Father's house
4. Christ judges inhabitants of earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. Glorious Appearing cannot occur for at least 7 years
7. Many signs for Christ's physical coming
8. Affects all humanity
9. Time of mourning
10. Immediately after Tribulation (Matthew 24)
11. Satan bound in Abyss for 1,000 years
12. No time or place for Judgment Seat
13. His bride descends with Him
14. Every eve will see Him
15. 1,000-year kingdom of Christ begins
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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whitesands777
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
One more comment, the Tribulation is not the wrath of satan but the wrath that God pours out on the anti-Christ and his followers. If you read Revelations you will see that talks about God pouring out the bowls of wrath.
I too think it is sad that many Christians are not looking for the return of Jesus.
God bless you,
betty
You'll notice that the first bowl is specifically poured out on those with the mark of the beast... The church doesn't need to be gone before then to escape that because true believers won't take the mark.
And after the 6th bowl the Bible says this.
Revelation 16
15 " Behold, I come as a thief . Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."
This is where pre trib theory caves...
I know I know..."that is the second coming not the rapture".
But the entire pre trib theory bases it's theory on imminency doctrine...They say the second coming is not as a thief because of all the signs but the rapture is as a thief thus seprating the two events...But the above scripture says He comes as a thief during the description of the bowls. It also says Blessed is he that watcheth...Watching for what ? Perhaps watch for the signs of the bowls ?
This understanding would tie perfectly with the parable Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 about the man not being overtaken unaware because he was watching...And also when Paul says that the day comes as a thief in the night and that we are not children of the night but of the day that the day would not take us unaware.
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
AS far as the men who have studied and taught they are just that men.
These men have used careful discernment.
quote:
Like I have said I believe there is a Rapture of the church just not before the tribulation.God bless greg
When do you think this rapture will be?
quote:
And how do we watch for His return if we aren't supposed to be here to see the signs that He gave us ?
Some scriptural references would help whitesands.
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
His grace your right you didn't but it has been done before. Most of the examples I used Are things I have read in books seen on websites, or heard a pastor preach it.
Sorry for any confusion on that. When I wrote that Post I wasn't really thinking about the board just going through things I have heard. AS far as the men who have studied and taught they are just that men. A good test would be to find someone who has no idea what we are talking about and having them read the Bible. Than asking them questions. Like I have said I believe there is a Rapture of the church just not before the tribulation.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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whitesands777
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posted
quote:
A person has to ask themselves when we were told to watch for Christ coming did he mean his coming to rule or his coming to rapture the church?
And how do we watch for His return if we aren't supposed to be here to see the signs that He gave us ?
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Gramajo320
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posted
The pretrib and the rapture is definitely going to happen then those who don't believe it will get to see it for themselves.
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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HisGrace
unregistered
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posted
Sister Betty and I are not just saying these things off the top of our heads.
I have listened to very learned speakers who have studied eschatology, some of them for years and years, and obviously so has she. There are many scriptures to show the Rapture, tribulation, great tribulation, second coming, thousand years and judgment, and it is all very clear to us. We are not confused.
I am just wondering how many others believe they clearly understand how all of this is going to fall into place?
(BTW Greg I never used the scripture concerning the 10 virgins as a Rapture scripture)
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Bloodbought
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posted
I don’t know who thought up this pre-trib stuff, it doesn’t sound right. There is only the second coming of Christ not a second coming to the air and then a third coming to the earth. The hour Christ leaves His Heavenly place to return He will not stop until His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives. When He comes every eye will see Him and them that pierced Him. The first time He came He brought salvation, the next time He is coming in judgment, those who are ready and covered by the blood will be saved and those who are not will be lost, there is no second chance. I don’t know when He will come, but I am certain that He will come and I agree with those who say the most important thing is to be ready. It is so important to be ready to be caught up and not caught out.
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
Wow betty first off like I said my post was to know one in particular.
Second I'm glad that you have put your trust in such wonderful mean like
Hal Linsey - who predicted the rapture to happen in the 80's hmm Christians are still here. Wouldn't that make him a false prophet?
Jack van Impe- this guy is so confused He thinks we will a be little Gods and fly around in spaceships over the planets the GOd will give us to rule ove. This is a Morman teaching.
He is so confused he finds no fault with the Roman Catholic Church. Yep he's a man of God.
John Hagee I don't much about him except that he is a prosperity preacher.Well I'll let him get his treasure now. I'll take mine in heaven.
This is not anything against Baptist but most of them atleast those in the higher ranks don't believe in speaking in tongues well if they are wrong on that then they just maybe wrong on other things as well.
So my point is Go ahead and keep trusting man is is able and does make mistakes or trust the word.
Either way Christ is coming back and it will be soon.
Aas far as your body goes sure we can play that game only thing is you need to walk in my shoes also. Oh wait I'm doing just fine I let Christ be my hospital every day of the week.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
One more comment, the Tribulation is not the wrath of satan but the wrath that God pours out on the anti-Christ and his followers. If you read Revelations you will see that talks about God pouring out the bowls of wrath.
I too think it is sad that many Christians are not looking for the return of Jesus.
God bless you,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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reflectingtheson
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posted
quote:
My hope is in God and not people. He said that He would save His Church from the wrath...
From His Wrath yes!!!, but from the tribulation of satan that will get worse and worse maybe but not nessasarily. Just like he spared the jewish people from Hitler or the early christians from Nero or the early church fathers of the 17th century from the roman catholic church.
And that is how I see it BIG difference between tribulation(even the great one) and God's Wrath.
All in all That we all serve the Lord in our all is the main thing. I can tell you that when I tell people that I am looking for the Sky to split wide open and for Christ to shout " your time is up!!" I am asked if I really believe that. And this if from people who attend church every week.
How SAD!!!!
Posts: 43 | From: Baton Rouge, LA | Registered: Sep 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
If I believed in the pre-trib all by myself, I may wonder why. But, great men of God have taught the rapture my entire life: Pastor Hagee, Hal Lindly, Van Impe, etc.
Not only them by Southern Baptist andAssemblies of God teach the pre-trib rapture.
Yes, you may find it hard to believe but then the people did not believe Noah when he said the flood was coming.
Has anyone been scared into getting saved? Of course. Yes, there are those who say the prayer and don't mean it but I remember growing up hearing testimonies from people who said they got saved because they were scared of hell BUT they developed a relationship with God and grew into adult Christians.
As far as the comment about sick people wishing for the rapture because of their pain, I wish that you could walk a couple days in my shoes and then see how you feel.
Obviously, some people will not believe in the pre-trib rapture until it happens. I am not going to concern myself with that. My hope is in God and not people. He said that He would save His Church from the wrath and I am trusting Him to do so. He said to be looking for the blessed hope and I shall be doing so. I will not allow myself to be upset about what others believe. One thing the Lord has taught me this week is that He has given me peace in my heart that He is coming soon and no one, not even a fellow Christian can steal that peace from me.
God bless you and go in peace and God's blessing.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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reflectingtheson
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posted
quote:
Some Christians need to realize or remember that everything is for the glory of God. If God wants to have 2 billion of his people get martyred then so be it. It's for his glory not ours.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. The vast majority of todays "american" christian just don't want to conceive the idea that they may have to choose between life and off with their head, so to speak. Yes I think it is going to be most terrible and many millions will suffer and die, but to God be the Glory!!!
On a side note, do any of you think that the "Revelation of Jesus" to John is a begining to end chronology or possibly the same story told over few times to drive the point home. Much like Daniel and the statue and his vision of the four beast. Same story different examples
Otherwise oneyearandcounting, AMEN !!!!
Posts: 43 | From: Baton Rouge, LA | Registered: Sep 2005
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