This is topic I need some input...please. in forum End Time Events In The News at Christian Message Boards.


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Posted by rancan6776 (Member # 3943) on :
 
For the last 12 months are so I have really been digging and praying about the timing of the rapture. Before that I really didnt give it much thought nor did I think the timing was important. I started out a pre-tribber( I did not know that that belief had a name nor did I know that there was actually different views on the topic). I was actually fascinated at the way some interpreted scripture. So after countless numbers of threads and reading the scriptures being used I took on the view of being a post-tribber. But this week I realized that there are some assumptions in all views. So I have taken out all the assumptions used to support each view and this is what was left. We all know that God is not the author of confusion so why should we believe that the word "elect" that was used in the old testament means anything but the original meaning. Why would God change the meaning of this word?

sorry if this has been discussed before...

I am not trying to start a debate either, just probing and asking questions....
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Last Sunday night I just caught the last part of an excellant sermon by Dr. Adrian Rogers, explaining why he believes the Rapture will be pre-trib.

He explained that even the disciples were looking for Jesus' return. They were looking for Jesus, not the anti-christ. The church should be looking for Jesus, not the anti-christ.

"The saints are always living at the edge of eternity.

Such as God made powerful efforts to remove Lot and his family from the city of Sodom before he burned the wicked cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and such as he protected Noah and his family from the flood wiping out the wickedness of this world, he will remove the church from this wicked world before the tribulation."

I Thes 1:9-10
They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"Wrath is for sinners, not saints."

To me this scripture says it all.

I Thess. 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I could never figure out the view that millions of people will be caught up into the clouds, then have to make a u-turn and come back to earth again.??

There is a lot of pain and strife in this old world, but it is God's compassionate desire for us to draw nigh unto to Him, where we will receive refuge through His mighty grace and mercy, which to me would also mean refuge from the tribulation.

Psalm 59:16 But as for me, I will sing about your power. I will shout with joy each morning because of your unfailing love. For you have been my refuge, a place of safety in the day of distress.


 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
rancan6776,

Your question about the word “elect” is somewhat vague. Will you give the definition or would you like for one of us to give it?

In regards to your point about being a pre-tribber:

About 95% of Protestantism is futuristic when it comes to the rapture theory. For the sake of discussion I will go ahead and define this belief system.

1) The rapture is secret
2) After the rapture the 70th week of Daniel kicks in, (a seven year period known as the Great Tribulation period)
3) A world dictator appears on the scene described as the dreaded “Anti-Christ”
4) This dreaded “Anti-Christ” makes a packed with Israel which ushers in the fabulous “blood sacrificial system”
5) Towards the middle of the seven year period or Daniels 70th week the “Anti-Christ” breaks his pack with Israel and goes about destroying all things godly.

This system is preposterous as every one of these points can be dispensed with if you take the meaning of scripture in its simplicity.

AMH
 

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Posted by whitesands777 (Member # 3424) on :
 
Read the scriptures carefully...Back up scripture with other scripture and not our opinions and we will have the truth.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Well said whitesands777. If all the pre-tribbers would take your advice then the mish-mash that they are so quick to give us would not exist. But then, what would they do with all of there free time? I know they could go into academia; there no one would ever be able to figure out that they can not read. For example they can’t even recognize the little word “if” when they see it.

AMH
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
I believe in the rapture and it will come about.
 

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Posted by cefaison (Member # 4955) on :
 
Look at Biblical history. God has always taken His children out of harm's way prior to major judgments. Noah was warned to build the ark and board it before the flood. Lot was told to flee before God reigned down judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is in line with Biblical history that the Rapture will occur prior to the tribulation period.
In Christ,
Christie
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
this is from another forum but it will work here to I guess
1st Corinthians 15:51-52-- Behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (the sleep of death) but we shall be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling (wink) of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptable and we (who are still alive) shall be changed.

1st Thess 4:16--For the Master Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump (trumpet) of Yahweh, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first...

Ok these are two of the verses that are used for a rapture. Now I'm not denying the rapture but here is the verse that talks about the last trump.

Revelation 11: 15-18 And the seventh angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying: the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty-and-four elders which sat before God on their seats fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: We give thanks to thee O Yahweh Elohim El Shaddai (almighty) which art and was and are to come, because thou hast taken to thee thy great power and hast reigned. And the nations were angry and thy wrath has come AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be judged and thou should give reward to thy servants the prophets and to the saints and them that FEAR THY NAME small and great..and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth.

Ok now go back and read everything that happens before the seventh and last trump. If you read all that happens before the last trump you will see that the church is here after the death of the witnesses.

Now compare the verse in Rev. to this verse in Isaiah.

Isa.27:13 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Now when is all this happening? At the last trump. What happens before the last trump? The witnesses come on the scene along with the antichrist and Christians are still here.

Thats just a small part i could go deeper but it may have to wait.

God bless
greg

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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by cefaison:
Look at Biblical history. God has always taken His children out of harm's way prior to major judgments. Noah was warned to build the ark and board it before the flood. Lot was told to flee before God reigned down judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is in line with Biblical history that the Rapture will occur prior to the tribulation period.In Christ,Christie

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Amen - When I post on any forum I put careful thought into it, and do discerning Bible study. Also, we can always learn great lessons from good Bible teaching of those who have done research in eschatology. I would never give an answer unless it were Bible based.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Before I begin, in fairness I would like to give you the opportunity to retract what you are saying as I was taught from my youth to always be a gentleman.

AMH
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
His Grace and Cefaison,

Amen to your postings with which I am in agreement! God Bless!
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
"Well said whitesands777. If all the pre-tribbers would take your advice then the mish-mash that they are so quick to give us would not exist. But then, what would they do with all of there free time? I know they could go into academia; there no one would ever be able to figure out that they can not read. For example they can’t even recognize the little word “if” when they see it."

AMH

You make fun of pre-tribbers and you consider yourself a gentleman. I have done 4 extensive studies on the end times. I did not come to the pre-trib belief by throwing darts at a board.
Because I am a lady, I will not resort to calling you names. But, please do not insult my intelligence.
betty
 

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Posted by oneofgods (Member # 5046) on :
 
Hey guys, we all come to our own conclusions on this matter. Does it matter what we think though. While here on earth we are to spread the gospel. PERIOD. Whether we are pre-trib, post-trib or whatever, Christ will return and we will be with him. I am torn with the thoughts of "I wish he would come before I am done typing this post", and "Please wait a little bit longer so I can help save souls." Have you talked to anybody lately about Jesus?

Please forgive me if I am coming off as "harsh", it is not my intention to offend anyone. I have always been very interested in this matter and end time events, but the more I think about it, the more I'd rather not know.
 

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Posted by duality28 (Member # 4989) on :
 
Hey everyone,
I'm new here and also a fairly new christian. All of this is very confusing. There are some parts of the bible that I read that make me agree with I guess who you guys call "pre tribbers". But I'm still confused. I have questions though:

What was Matthew talking about here if he wasn't talking about the rapture?
Matthew 24:37-42
"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

What about this? If there is no such thing as the rapture, who is God talking about here? Who will He keep from the hour of trial?
Revelations 3:10
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

God tells the angels not to do anything to the earth in terms of all of the horrible things that are going to happen until He marks the foreheads of His servants.
Revelations 7:1-3 says, 1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."

And as soon as they are marked, what happens? Revelation 7:9 9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands....13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?" 14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So who are these people that get brought up before all the terrible stuff starts to happen? I'm just asking out of genuine interest cuz I just started actually putting thought to it since I'm new to all of this. So I dont want to offend anyone or anything. I'm just like everyone else who is trying to find answers. Hopefully I dont sound like a dork.

Thanks!
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
All I can say re pre-trib is "What if?" We better be ready, because there will be no deathbed chances.

Revelation 3:16
So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
I am not making fun of anyone. What we are discussing is a serious matter. Let’s just take a look at how serious some of the things that are being said by the pre-tribbers really are.

This was posted by HisGrace date 9-16-05 4:02 PM with a little help from cefaison:

“Originally posted by cefaison:
Look at Biblical history. God has always taken His children out of harm's way prior to major judgments. Noah was warned to build the ark and board it before the flood. Lot was told to flee before God reigned down judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. It is in line with Biblical history that the Rapture will occur prior to the tribulation period.In Christ,Christie

Amen - When I post on any forum I put careful thought into it, and do discerning Bible study. Also, we can always learn great lessons from good Bible teaching of those who have done research in eschatology. I would never give an answer unless it were Bible based.”

This Judas-statement has total disregard for the past 2000 years of Christian history. Let me ask HisGrace and cefaison if they have ever heard of the catacombs of the cities of Rome and Paris? Does HisGrace and cefaison understand why Christians were forced into those catacombs? Has HisGrace and cefaison ever thought to at least read Foxe’s little book? How about a man like Caligula? Did you ever care to find out what he and his contemporaries liked doing to Christians?

Oh, you don’t care for New Testament judgments. So there is no need for us discussing all the no names listed in Hebrews 11:36-40 as their sacrifices just don’t rate on the pre-tribber scale. And of course, never mind about what happened to the Apostles. What you require is something more substantial. Something really big. How about this one, “it rains on the just and the unjust”. I know that is just a quote from a very old book and the one who said it was crucified anyway. No need to pay attention to that.

Maybe the pre-tribbers are right, God would never ask a true believer to suffer.

AMH
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
AMH, I never said that Christians have never suffered. Satan is the prince of this world and as long as he is around, Christians are going to suffer. However, some day he is going to be totally defeated.

You have to admit that there were times in the Bible when God saw fit to protect his followers. The scriptures say that the tribulation is going to have catastrophe like the world has never known before. We can't even imagine.

The church will have no place in the fulfillment of OT prophecies. It is all about fulfilling the covenant made to Abraham, and the taking back of the Jewish nation and its promised land. Therefore, God will see fit to remove the church before the carnage begins.
 

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Posted by cefaison (Member # 4955) on :
 
AMH, I don't understand why you are so condescending about pre-trib's beliefs. That is not what saves me. Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is what saves my soul, as well as anyone who believes in him and receives the gift He so graciously gives. As Christians we should be able to agree to disagree. Certain things in the Bible are interpreted differently by different people and different denominations. I believe that as long as it does not pertain to the basic gospel of Christ and how we need to live our lives, then it's not so all-fired important that we agree. I do not judge you based on the fact that you do not belive in the pre-tribulation rapture. Do I believe differently? Yes. If I am wrong, am I ready to stand up for Christ and be a martyr and have my head cut off? YES!!!!!!!!!!! I would consider it an honor to die for my Lord as He died for me. I don't believe I will be here for that, but if I am, I am ready. And I am not going to condescend to people and threaten that "Before I begin, in fairness I would like to give you the opportunity to retract what you are saying as I was taught from my youth to always be a gentleman."
In Christ,
Christie
 

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Posted by MySavingGrace (Member # 4697) on :
 
“blood sacrificial system” what is this?


What does it mean that Satan is the prince of this world? Does it mean people are consumed with things of this world like posessions and pretty things ovre God and meaning?


AMH,

I did see it as being mean when you were saying how people oculdn't use the word if correctly. We're not to sweat the small stuff but be there for each other with what will come. You may have meant no harm, but words are powreful and can hurt.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MySavingGrace:
1. “blood sacrificial system” what is this?

2.What does it mean that Satan is the prince of this world? Does it mean people are consumed with things of this world like posessions and pretty things ovre God and meaning?

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1.In OT times people had to become periodically atoned of their sins by making a sacrificial offering of slain goats, lambs etc.
Jesus was slain as our scrificial Lamb to become an atonement for all sins from thereon. However, we have to confess that we are sinners and accept this free gift of grace and mercy.

Romans 10:9,That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

2.When Adam and Eve fell from grace they allowed sin to enter into the world. Mankind has been battling sin ever since. These bodies of ours are made from weak, human flesh, but we can become more than overcomers by accepting Jesus into our lives.

Our fleshly bodies will always be vulnerable to Satan's attacks until we are perfected by receiving glorified bodies at the moment of death, or as many of us believe, at the time of the Rapture. On the final day of judgment Satan will finally be defeated.
 

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Posted by rancan6776 (Member # 3943) on :
 
Im almost certain that I will never again post about the timing of the rapture. I did not meant to start a debate. I will say this though and I will be done with this subject publicly. When one believes that the return of Jesus is imminent, his or her main focus is not on trying to figure out where we are at in the timeline of the endtimes or who the antichrist might be or what this or that may or may not symbolize, no , your main focus is on Jesus Christ and the great commission, where it was commanded to be. I believe that satan will use everything he knows about the Word to try and deceive all of us in the end. If we are focused only on the Son that will never happen. Amen and Amen.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Sorry rancan, such issues always end up in a debate, because we all have different views. Many also have unanswered questions. It is commendable that you have such a wonderful focus on your own spiritual journey, but it is important to make others aware that they have to be ready.

Mark 13:32-37 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. It's like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch.

"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: 'Watch!' "
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
HisGrace, you are so right. If we are looking with longing for the return of our Lord and Savior, we have nothing to fear.
betty
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
There is nothing condescending about what I am saying. The argument that the Lord will not let judgment fall on God’s people does not originate here. The argument that the Lord will not let judgment fall on God’s people does not even originate with those that are responsible for the adoption of it by the pre-trib followers. If we want to know where it originated that would be Balaam. If you don’t like your position then give up the teaching. It is an old adage that if you don’t like the message then dispose of the messenger. Or in rancan6776’s case, if you don’t like where your pet teaching leads you then burry your head in the sand.

It is wrong for you people to hold a position that ignores all the Christians that I have mentioned. If you are a Christian then you at least ought to acknowledge the sacrifices that were made to bring the Gospel to you. But it would be best if you would not only acknowledge them, you should identify with them. Now what are you going to do? Say that AMH is not a gentleman. OK that is your right. Any time that you want me to you can make me leave. I know this.

I said earlier that every teaching that I listed can be easily disposed of by the simple application of the scriptures. Why in the world would any Christian want to hold onto such a house of cards?

AMH
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Betty and His Grace,

Amen to your postings with which I'm in agreement with! God bless you both!
 

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Posted by duality28 (Member # 4989) on :
 
no one really acknowledged the bible questions I posted. Is there another section that I can post them to find out what those parts in revelations mean? Maybe I just put it in the wrong section.

thanks.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Sorry duality. I will have a closer look at your post and give my views later.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
“What was Matthew talking about here if he wasn't talking about the rapture?
Matthew 24:37-42
"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

What about this? If there is no such thing as the rapture, who is God talking about here? Who will He keep from the hour of trial?”
-------I believe this is indeed talking about the rapture

Revelations 3:10
”10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”
--------I believe this is a promise to the Church that God will remove us before the tribulation so that we do not have to endure the wrath of God on the anti-Christ and his followers.

God tells the angels not to do anything to the earth in terms of all of the horrible things that are going to happen until He marks the foreheads of His servants.
Revelations 7:1-3 says, 1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
-----I believe this is also talking about the rapture, but it could also pertain to those who reject the mark of the beast. In the left behind books, the writer explains a mark that will appear on the foreheads that will accept Jesus after the rapture, as a way of one believer to be able to recognize another believer. These books are fiction but this could actually be true.

”And as soon as they are marked, what happens? Revelation 7:9 9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands....13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?" 14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
---------These are those who miss the rapture but who are martyred during the tribulation for refusing the mark of the beast. They will die for their belief in Christ and will go to Heaven where they will be comforted and given rest.

I apologize for not answering your question before and welcome to the board.
betty
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
I agree with TEXASGRANDMA that Matt.24:37-42 is talking about the Rapture. This description is much like to-day, with life going on in all of its revelry, with many totally unaware that Christ is coming soon.

I also agree that the church will be raptured away before the tribulation begins as described in Rev. 3:10.

I believe Rev. 7:1-3 is speaking about how the angels will hold back the impending storms and winds of wrath until all of the servants have received the seal of God on their foreheads. These servants are 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel, who will be saved and groomed in order to minister and convert thousands of their own, plus others, during the first part of the tribulation.

I also agree that Rev.7:9 is speaking about thousands of these new converts who will be martyred and taken to heaven.

duality you asked "So who are these people that get brought up before all the terrible stuff starts to happen?"

These will be the true born-again believers. Many believe that the anti-christ will not be revealed until the second half of the 7-year tribulation, which is referred to as the Great Tribulation, at which time true carnage will be powerfully poured out.
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Wow all this wonderful information on the pre trib theory of the rapture, but not one of you answered my question so I'll re post it I guess. Here is the question. If there is a pre-trib rapture,What do you do with these verses.

1st Corinthians 15:51-52-- Behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (the sleep of death) but we shall be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling (wink) of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptable and we (who are still alive) shall be changed.

1st Thess 4:16--For the Master Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump (trumpet) of Yahweh, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first...

Ok these are two of the verses that are used for a rapture. Now I'm not denying the rapture but here is the verse that talks about the last trump.

Revelation 11: 15-18 And the seventh angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying: the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty-and-four elders which sat before God on their seats fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: We give thanks to thee O Yahweh Elohim El Shaddai (almighty) which art and was and are to come, because thou hast taken to thee thy great power and hast reigned. And the nations were angry and thy wrath has come AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be judged and thou should give reward to thy servants the prophets and to the saints and them that FEAR THY NAME small and great..and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth.

Ok now go back and read everything that happens before the seventh and last trump. If you read all that happens before the last trump you will see that the church is here after the death of the witnesses.

Now compare the verse in Rev. to this verse in Isaiah.

Isa.27:13 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Now when is all this happening? At the last trump. What happens before the last trump? The witnesses come on the scene along with the antichrist and Christians are still here.

I did just remeber though that when God released the plagues on Eygpt, He did raprure out the Nation of Isreal. Then he placed them back in Eygpt. That would be sarcasm by the way. I think we all kniow that they were left in Eygpt and were all protected from everything that happened except for Pharoahs anger.(He made them work even harder). By a pretrib rapture theory are you saying that we as Christians are better than the Nation of Isreal in that time. Maybe what you are saying is that God loves us Christians more than the Nation of Isreal.
Here is something for everyone of us to think about. I have been on this board for awhile now. One thing I can't remember seeing is a person changing thier mind on what they believe. and admitting so. Is it that hard for us as people to look at the scripture when someone points it outand say wow I see it.
Betty threw a few verses out there. Matt. and Rev 3:10 I will be looking deeper into Rev 3:10 maybe I'll see something new. I pray that all of you would look into other points of view on certain things especial things that aren't salvation issues. And the rapture isn't a salvation issue.
By the way the verses in Matthew that Betty used could also be used to be a post or a mid trib rapture. They are basically saying that life will be going on and not to many will be thinking of God at that time.

Thats just a small part I could go deeper but it may have to wait.

God bless
greg
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
oneyearandcounting,

You do take many liberties with scripture don’t you? Any time that you feel like it you are changing the words. I thought that only the author could do that. What you want to do is to mix and match. Here a little Greek, there a little Hebrew. By what authority do you do this? It is just like the way that the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib people operate. They redefine terms to fit their personal beliefs, pull rabbits out of their hats, and say the wildest of things.

Here is a little Hebrew for you. A prophet must be 100% accurate or they are to be stoned. Here is a little Greek for you. A Bible Teacher sent by God must be 100% accurate or they are apostate.

Certainly the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib teachers cannot all be right. At least 2 of the 3 teachers are bogus. That only leaves 1 that could possibly be correct. Sort of like a shell game where no matter which you choose the set up makes it impossible for you to pick the correct shell because the marble is not there.

Another Hebrew author has written about vanity. While you continue trying for the non-existent marble under the fast moving shells there is no time left for real bible study. An excellent achievement by the enemy.

Is there a cold going around here? That seems to be the only thing that everyone around here can actually catch.

AMH
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
AMH
Where did I change words to the
Scripture? As far as I can see from rereading my post all I did is use Yahweh instead of God ( which I beleive is one of Gods many names is it not?) And also I used Elohim again one of Gods names. I got my verses from two sources One Matthew Henrys Commentary, and also from a Bible that all the verses list the Lords name in the Hebrew ( they are called the Sacred names). Now if this is wrong then I aplogize. But like most people here instead of typing the whole thing out I copied and pasted. Again if this is wrong I apologize.
AS far as my stance on the rapture I was trying to prove A point. While asking a question. I am in no way trying to play a shell game in fact if I had to say when I beleive the Rapture is I would lean towards the end of the tribulation.
If you look at the verses that I used I talked about the last trump those are two of the few verses that pre trib rapture people base thier belief on. My point was simple if the verse in 1Corinthians says it will be the last trump, and the seventh in last trump in the Book Of Revelation has so much happining before the trump happens how can it be a pre trib. Here are the verses again from Matthew Henrys Commentary.
1 Cor15:51-52 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev.11 15:18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Now the point I was and still am trying to make is if the Rapture is on the last trump how can it be pre trib.
So I guess I'm not sure I inserted words where I wanted as you say but for that I aplogize. If it is wrong of me to use the Sacred Names Bible then I will stop. I just thought it was cool using Gods other names and not just god all the time. I mean those are his names correct?

God bless you Amh Hopefully I was able to clear everything up. I do believe that the Scared Names Bible was retranslated by someone of Jewish decent.


AGain God bless
greg
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
The Last trump is the Second Coming not the rapture. When we are caught up in the air with Jesus, His feet never touch the ground. But, when Jesus comes back in the Second Coming, He will have the Church with Him. He will step on the Mount of Olives and then the Mount will split apart. When Jesus comes from the Church, He is the Shepherd gathering His children to Him, but when He comes in the Second Coming, He will be armed for battle. Does a groom hold a sword for battle when he meets his bride?
betty
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Betty
What you say I agree with but, that would mean that this verse is not a rapture verse 1Cor.15: 51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And the reason is because if the last trump is Christs Appearing on th emount of Olives then how can this verse be a rapture. You will notice the important words last trump. Now if this isn't a rapture verse why is it taught as one.

God bless
greg
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
oneyearandcounting,

There are a lot of cool people around. If you are comfortable being in a position of Scripture writer/interpreter then there is no need of explaining it to me, (I was just asking an innocent question like you were). Besides, you have more seniority here then I have.

TEXASGRANDMA,

The “last trump” is the Second Coming, not the rapture. Not a very literal interpretation is it? Oh, I forgot, we only do that when it is convenient.

Here let’s see, the last trump is the second coming, but the rapture is the first installment of the second coming so that the rapture is part “A” of last trumpet. I never was very good at playing musical instruments, it takes more hot air then I can muster.

AMH
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
1st Corinthians 15:51-52-- Behold I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (the sleep of death) but we shall be changed. In a moment, in the twinkling (wink) of an eye AT THE LAST TRUMP; for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptable and we (who are still alive) shall be changed.

1st Thess 4:16--For the Master Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump (trumpet) of Yahweh, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first...

---

quote:

---

Revelation 11: 15-18 And the seventh angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying: the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign forever and ever. And the twenty-and-four elders which sat before God on their seats fell upon their faces and worshipped God, saying: We give thanks to thee O Yahweh Elohim El Shaddai (almighty) which art and was and are to come, because thou hast taken to thee thy great power and hast reigned. And the nations were angry and thy wrath has come AND THE TIME OF THE DEAD that they should be judged and thou should give reward to thy servants the prophets and to the saints and them that FEAR THY NAME small and great..and shouldest destroy them that destroy the earth.

Isa.27:13 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

---

A number of trumps were referred to in Rev. before Jesus' Second Coming and none was referred to as the 'last trump'. Isaiah 27:13 is also speaking about the Jesus' Second Coming.

There won't be any 'last trumps' regarding Jesus' Second Coming because he will be reigning for a thousand years. After that there will be a new heaven and a new earth.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
AMH



I have done 4 studies with teachers I respect who teach the rapture is pre-trib. I have had 4 Pastors who I respect who believe in the pre-trib or I could believe you. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
betty
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
One of the main things wrong in my eye with a pre trib rapture is the word last trump. You can't get past the fact that Paul used those exact words in 1Cor15:52. Now if The seventh trump is the last And I must assume that it is because the word trump is not mentioned the rest of the book of Revelation, WE can draw one of two conclusions. First the rapture is gonna happen in th end. Two Paul was a liar when he wrote Corinthians and didn't know what he was talking about. No wait there is a third using the verse in 1cor 15:51 isn't a rapture verse. Now I really don't think Paul was a liar because if so how can we trust any thing that he wrote.
I have been looking at this rapture thing with an open mind and I'm sorry I can't get past the verse in Corinthians.
So far two different people have tried to prove to me but noone has told me what they do with the words last trump in 1corinthians15:51

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Not to beat a dead horse but Paul uses last trump. Therefore it has to be the seventh. It can't be the first six well simple because they aren't last.

So now we have a contridiction in the Bible. This is very bad because that means eithr Paul was spirit filled and if thats the case how can we trust his Epistles. Or John didn't really have a Revelation, which if he lied about that how can we trust his writtings.
No I don't believe either of these are the case, I feel thatuntil someone shows me something different I will just have to settle on the fact that there isn't a Pre trib Rapture.
Well I hope I haven't made anyone angry. Itis just thta this is one of the main problems I have And would like someone to clear it up.

May God bless you

greg
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
oneyearandcounting,

Your trumpet thing does make the point that the pre-trib people have got problems with their system that they can not deal with. If you will notice, it has been almost 100 years since “Dr.” Scofield gave us his great study bible and yet the pre-tribbers have more problems with their system then less. They think that because they have numbers on their side, (a lot of people who believe the same stuff) that they can take comfort in that. But even this numbers game of theirs is a contradiction because when they talk about judgment they seem to think that the big number of people are the one’s who are judged. So what if some preachers who are respected have certain personal beliefs? That only proves that certain preachers who are respected have certain personal beliefs. It really does not prove a thing.

The problem with your post-trib trumpet thing oneyearandcounting is that it still relies on the same foundation that the pre-trib, mid-trib systems have built. That some how the 70th week of Daniel has been suspended by God for literally thousands of years. This is the crux of the matter. The tribbers three, (pre, mid, post) continue to spew the same gap theory over and over whether they realize it or not. But they have a hard time explaining why God would allow for such a gap.

The best that they can come up with for there being a gap of thousands of years and still counting is that God originally was going to set up the Kingdom during Christ’s first earthly appearance and that somehow that plan was thwarted so that God had to settle for Plan “B”. According to the tribbers three, we the Church are Plan “B”. Not something that God really intended but something that He had to settle for.

How fortunate for us that God was unable to bring His Plan “A” into being. If God were actually strong enough to bring it about then we would be lost. Thanks be to God that He was to weak to bring Plan “A” to fruition.

This Plan “A”, Plan “B” theory of the tribbers three is more than just fraudulent. But some one like me, (a non-gentleman) is not qualified to speak of such matters.

AMH
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
One of the main things wrong in my eye with a pre trib rapture is the word last trump. You can't get past the fact that Paul used those exact words in 1Cor15:52.

So now we have a contridiction in the Bible. This is very bad because that means eithr Paul was spirit filled and if thats the case how can we trust his Epistles. Or John didn't really have a Revelation, which if he lied about that how can we trust his writtings.
No I don't believe either of these are the case, I feel thatuntil someone shows me something different I will just have to settle on the fact that there isn't a Pre trib Rapture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
I have done 4 studies with teachers I respect who teach the rapture is pre-trib. I have had 4 Pastors who I respect who believe in the pre-trib or I could believe you. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
betty

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quote:

---

Originally posted by AMH:
No, you only think that there has to be an explanation for you to believe in pre-trib. You will believe it no matter what.AMH

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I have quoted many scriptures to solidly back up my views AMH. I haven't seen one scripture from you to support your 'claims'. You quoted one little scripture - Hebrews 11:36-40 and that was referring to OT times.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
One of these days the rapture will happen. When it does, God will bring joy to those who believed His Word and punishment to those who did not. As far as looking for teachers to say what I already believed, this is far from the case. When I joined a Church, I did not ask what the Preacher believed about the trib, first. It is not like this is a subject that is taught every Sunday. But, the pre-trib is taught by the Assemblies of God and every type of Baptist Church that I have been to. The Bible does teach in a secret rapture. This teaching does not make sense to believe that and believe that it will happen after the 7 year tribulation. Until the rapture happens I will be doing like the Apostle Paul said to do and that is looking for the blessed hope.
betty
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
OK, I will start with the scripture. But you are not going to like that either. Sorry.

AMH
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMH:
OK, I will start with the scripture. But you are not going to like that either. Sorry.
AMH

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quote:

---

Originally posted by AMH:
Are you saying that this exodus is to be likened to the rapture?

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quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Thank you cefaison,

..., God gave me a wonderful peace that the pre-trib belief is a sound Biblical belief. I realize that this belief is not essential to being saved, but one a person starts to shred our beliefs in God's Word, little by little it opens the door to doubt in all of our faith. I know that the Bible tells the Christian to be watching for Jesus for His Church. I have never found one place in the Bible that teaches a Christan how to prepare for the tribulation. I believe that is because we will not be here.
Like it was brought out in my Sunday School class on Prophecy, A groom does not pour out his wrath on his bride. God's wrath is for those who have rejected His Son, and not for the Church.


betty

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Dear Betty,

You hold on so tight to this belief about Pre-trib, and while I agree with you totally that whatever one's belief about how end times will play out is not a Salvation issue, I fear that when one takes such an uncompromising view about end times, one can miss out on what God is really doing, because one has shut up their mind to ANY other possibilties.

You write that the Bible Never instructs us how to go through tribulation, and with that I must strongly disagree with you.

Ephesians 6:10-18

James 1:2-26

1 Peter 3-9

1 Peter 4:7-8,12-16

1 John 15-23
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
More Bible instructions on tribulations;

Matt 13:21 "Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the world he immediately stumbles."

Matt 24:21-22 "For at that time there will be a great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again. Unless those days were limited no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the Elect."

John 16:33 " I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. You will have suffering (tribulations)in this world. Be courageous! I have conquered the world."

Act 14:22 "Strengthening the hearts of the disciples by encouraging them to continue in the faith, and by telling them; It is necessary to pass through many troubles(tribulations) on our way into the Kingdom of God."

Romans 5:3 "And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction(tribulation) produces endurance."

Romans 8:18 " For I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us."

Romans 8:35 " Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can affliction(tribulation), or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger of sword?"

Romans 12:12 "Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation; be persistant in prayer."

1 Thess 3:4 "In fact when we were with you, we told you previously that we were going to suffer persecution, and as you know it happened."

2 Thess 1:4 "Therefore we boast about you among God's churches-about your endurance and faith in all the persecutions(tribulaions) and afflictions you endure."

Sounds like most of the New Testament is how to endure tribulations.

We are not appointed to Wrath, and I believe you are seeing the Tribulation as part of the Wrath of God and IT IS NOT the wrath of God time.
 

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Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
I had a wonderful Pastor when I was living in Houston, who could scripturally argue for pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib.

What I learned is to just wait for the coming of Jesus, and to have no preformed concepts what the details of the future will be.

Except that Jesus is coming back for His Bride, satan is going to be cast into hell, and in the mean time things are going to get really really bad.

That was what one of the problems was with the Jews during Jesus walk on earth: they had a predetermined concept of The Messiah, and Jesus didn't fit it.

I don't want to have the same type of problem.

I won’t determine my fellowship on what a Christian perceives the end times to be like, but rather on how they are living In Christ, and For Christ TODAY.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
“Just will” is Nietzsche’s advice, it does not matter what you will or why.

Shall we apply this anti-Christ philosopher?
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Remember the guy that produced the recent movie “The Passion of the Christ”? Have you ever read his testimony? He is a devout Roman Catholic. Do you know why he is a Roman Catholic? Because another devout Roman Catholic was nice to him. This is his reasoning. And this is your reasoning. You believe the way that you do because some “nice” guy “taught” you to. You have no other reason then this, (unless you are making a living “teaching” Daniel 70th week tribulation theory).

You do not like what I say so you look for reasons not to pay attention. AMH is not a nice guy therefore what he says is not important.

You want your ears tickled. More than this you demand your ears be tickled.

Example-

John Bunyan was a preacher who was thrown in prison because he would not parrot official doctrine. They would not let John Bunyan buy or sell.

The system is everything.
 

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Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
AMH

Who are you addressing in your last post
 

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Posted by Brother Brady (Member # 4490) on :
 
As I read many of the comments in this thread, several things occured to me.

1) It is a good thing to edify one another in the word. 2) God gives understanding of scripture through his Spirit of Truth. What may apply to me, may apply to another person in a different way. 3) God's word should not cause division, even in debate. If it does, something is amiss. 4) satan knows the scriptures better than any of us.

I've found that a good ground rule for Christian debate is to apply my understanding or interpretation of scripture to how it applys to me and my own life personally, without "Lording" it over others as absolute truth. Truth must be shared with love, patience and kindness, seeking to uplift one another, not tear down. In some cases, we must stand for the truth fervently as Jesus did against the Pharisees and Saducees, but unless you are called to do so in this manner, it is best to avoid speaking with that type of authority.

Here is how this debate effects me. Personally, I could care less if the rapture comes before or after the tribulation. Jesus says we can not know the day or the hour. I might walk out the door today and be killed, in which case, eternity for me will come instaneously. Meanwhile, what is my purpose? To love God and do as he commands, that is, to fulfill the great comission, to lead others to Christ. That is my only concern, anything beyond that does nothing to edify the body.

Personally, I would forego the rapture in order to stay behind to help those who remain if God wanted me to, and if in fact that will be the order of things.

RB

 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
White Eagle,

I did not shut my ears to hearing the truth. I spent two weeks in prayer, seeking the truth. I sought God with all my heart and He gave me peace that the pre-trib rapture is truth. Too many are not looking for the return of our Lord and Savior. The Bible says Jesus is coming for those who are looking for His return. I am praying every day for His return.
betty
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
I was watching a preacher on TV and when he went off I started lunch, and left the TV on. The next preacher was preaching on why the pre-trib belief is Biblically sound. I knew immediately that God was reaffirming my belief. I am grateful that God cares enough about me to send me a sign that I do not have to fear the tribulation because He is coming for the Church, first.

betty
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
I heard a preacher confirm my belief by saying that the resurrection and the second coming of Christ all takes place in an hour. Sometime within that hour, as quick as you twinkle your eye the dead in Christ will rise and we that are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. The wicked are resurrected in the same hour.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The good and the evil are both resurrected in the same hour on the last day.

God bless.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
There is a 7 year period from the moment of the rapture until the Second Coming when Jesus will come back on a white horse and the Church behind Him, also on white horses. The wicked dead will not be resurrected until after the tribulation.
Christians who have passed away will be resurrected at the moment of the rapture.
betty
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bloodbought:
I heard a preacher confirm my belief by saying that the resurrection and the second coming of Christ all takes place in an hour.
The good and the evil are both resurrected in the same hour on the last day.God bless.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Hello HisGrace. In God’s eyes, a thousand years is as one day and one day as a thousand years.

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Yes, it certainly seems that way sometimes
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
It is psychology 101.

People do not remember what a speaker says so much as they remember how a speaker makes them feel.

Most professional preachers are schooled in this.

The reason why they are schooled in this is so that they can continue receiving pay checks.

They build a system that people like then they support that system.

This thread is a good example of how the followers of a system react to the dynamics of such a system.

It does not matter that a man like Nietzsche was a self proclaimed anti-Christ; they can still use what he said. It works for many systems, if not all. Just count the number of Christians who were engulfed by Nietzsche’s direct descendents.

wparr asks me who am I addressing. Anyone who mindlessly follows. That is the key ingredient.
 

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Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on :
 
AMH

Contrary to your own belief, you are not God.
You are not above us. You sit in your tower of arrogance and think you are better than the rest of us. But, when the rapture comes, you can explain to God how you ignored His teaching through out the Bible about the rapture.

I do not speak from anger. I feel only peace in my heart that God loves His Church and is coming soon for us. He teaches the Church to await His return with joy in their heart.
The devil uses someone like you to try to take away the joy and peace but when we reach out to God for assurance, He reminds us to keep our eyes on Him and not the likes of you, who would steal the joy and peace right out of our hearts.
Remember the devil comes to steal and destroy and sometimes he uses williing Christians to do that job for him.
betty
 

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Posted by whitesands777 (Member # 3424) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
More Bible instructions on tribulations;

Matt 13:21 "Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the world he immediately stumbles."

Matt 24:21-22 "For at that time there will be a great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again. Unless those days were limited no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the Elect."

John 16:33 " I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. You will have suffering (tribulations)in this world. Be courageous! I have conquered the world."

Act 14:22 "Strengthening the hearts of the disciples by encouraging them to continue in the faith, and by telling them; It is necessary to pass through many troubles(tribulations) on our way into the Kingdom of God."

Romans 5:3 "And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction(tribulation) produces endurance."

Romans 8:18 " For I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us."

Romans 8:35 " Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can affliction(tribulation), or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger of sword?"

Romans 12:12 "Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation; be persistant in prayer."

1 Thess 3:4 "In fact when we were with you, we told you previously that we were going to suffer persecution, and as you know it happened."

2 Thess 1:4 "Therefore we boast about you among God's churches-about your endurance and faith in all the persecutions(tribulaions) and afflictions you endure."

Sounds like most of the New Testament is how to endure tribulations.

We are not appointed to Wrath, and I believe you are seeing the Tribulation as part of the Wrath of God and IT IS NOT the wrath of God time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMH:
OK, I will start with the scripture. But you are not going to like that either. Sorry.

AMH

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quote:

---

Originally posted by AMH:
You people just do not want to get to the issues. You dream that someone is disrespectful because they can disagree intelligently. I will tell you what. Pick any pre/mid/post tribulation topic to discuss. And we will discuss it, that is if you can stick around.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by AMH:
Aaron, what is on your mind? What are you asking of me exactly? What exactly is your request?

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quote:

---

Again the Rapture isn't a salvation issue for a Christian but it is for the unsaved.

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quote:

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Originally posted by whitesands777:
Excellent Eagle....Many have confused God's wrath with the word tribulation....

But reading the scripture carefully reveals that the great tribulation is carried out by the antichrist .

The wrath of God is poured out against those that have join sides with the antichrist...

It is true, tht the wrath of God is not poured out on the saints. But we were told that we would have tribulation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Read Revelations Chapter 6 and you will see the plaques come from God himself and not the anti-Christ. Read Chapter 8 and you will see that the wrath does indeed come from God.

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Betty, Rev chapter 6 is about the 7 seals. The 7 seals are from the scroll mentioned in chapter 5, that no one else was worthy enought to break the seals except Christ. Rev. 6:1 "I saw the Lamb open one of the seals..."etc and etc. to the 6th seal in verse 12. "there was a great earthquake and the sun became black as sackcloth and the moon became as blood..." With this seal being opened then the Wrath of God commences (see Rev 6:17) For the great Day of His wrath has come, and who shall be able to stand."

In Rev 19:10b "...that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy."

I'm highlighting the prophecy, because the opening of the seals by the Lamb of God is of course Christ and he is worthy to reveal prophecy, or the events that will unfold at the end of days. The Seals are prophetic events to occur, and even though Jesus is revealing them, He is not the reason that they happen, it is due to man's own SIN, that these particular events occur. Jesus is just revealing them to us through John.

The 6th seal announced the start of the Wrath of God. Before that in the 5th seal we see the saints who were slain for the word of God under the altar. They are waiting for the Raptured one to join them and for the Wrath of God to come.

In Rev chapter 7 the sixth seal brings darkness and earthquakes and a earthly events of great magnitude, that terrify even the rulers of this world. It shows the angels sealing the Jewish 144,000, and it shows the multitude of saints in heaven These in the white robes are : Rev 7:14 "These are they which came out of the Great tribulation, and washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb."

In chapter 8 the 7th seal is opened, and this is after the Great Tribulation and after the rapture as we already saw the saints in heaven. The 7th seal brings Silence in heaven for one half hour. In other words it's a Great Hush of awe just before the plagues and Wrath of God hits the world. The Trumpets and Vial are called JUDGEMENTS BY THE BIBLE. The seals are not judgements, but prophecies.

Can you see the difference?

Yes, we will always have trials and problems but the tribulation is from God to the anti-Christ and his followers. That is why God will remove the Church before the triublation because, God's wrath is not for his children.
betty [/QB][/QUOTE]
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
I just want to address another problem I see. this is the teaching of a "Seven year Tribulation"

Goodness knows all Baptists and other denominational preachers hold onto this as doctrine, such as Jack Van Impe, Tim Lahaye, etc.

If one studies the Bible alone without the mindset imposed by such as Lahaye and Van Impe, one will hopefully be able to see that NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT THERE WILL BE A SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION.

Even if it did, which it doesn't. that teaching gives lie to the fact that NO ONE KNOWS the HOUR that Christ will return, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. It will be like the days of Noah, when the unrighteous will be totally unprepared when Christ returns to claim His Kingdom

I think many people get Christ's return mixed up with no one knowing the hour of the Rapture, but they are separate events, while no one knows when the Rapture will occur either, the same holds true as to when Christ will Return to Claim his Kingdom.

So if you hold onto a 7 year trib, you are implicitly saying you KNOW when Christ will return.

Reasons not to buy into a 7 year tribulation:

Matthew 24:21-22 "For then, shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
EXCEPT THOSE DAYS BE SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for THE ELECT'S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED."


The great Tribulation could be 2 years or 20 yers we do not know, but it will be shortened for the elect's sake. Who are the elect? The Church!

Daniel 9:24 Here is the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years for the Jewish people. What are the 70 weeks for?

verse 24: "To finish the transgression"
"to make an end of sins"
"to make reconciliation for iniquity"
"to bring in everlasting righteousness"
"to seal up the vision and the prophecy"
"to anoint the Most Holy."

It's important to realize the purpose of God for the 70 weeks, to aid our understanding.

I can show scripture to defend my view that 69 weeks have been fulfilled already, but since I know that most others, even Lahaye will agree with that, I'll leave it for now, and you can read Daniel 9:25 and see that is true. It was fulfilled prior to Christ's birth and ministry.
Most scholars agree with this bit of Bible.

On to the 70th week. I see that half of it has been fulfilled by Christ's 3 1/2 year ministry, death and resurection. Read Daniel 9:25-26:

The building of the Temple in Jerusalem to the time of the Messiah the Prince shall be 7 weeks plus 62 weeks. So that gives us the 69 weeks which preceeds Christ's birth.

It says in verse 26 after the 62 weeks, which is after the first 7 weeks or total of 69 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself."

this prophecies of Christ's death on the Cross.

verse 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years) and in the midst of the week shall he cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

When Christ died on the cross He caused the sacrifices of the temple to be of non effect to God. The veil was torn and the Holy of Holies opened up to all who believe in Christ, and the former Jewish sacrifices are desolate to God. In fact to do them NOW would be an Abomination that causes desolation.

I believe that Christ's 3 1/2 year ministry is the first part of the 70th week. The antichrist is only given 3 1/2 years and this is during the time that the 144,000 Jews are sealed by God in Revelation chapt 7. In Daniel 12:7b the angel answers Daniel's question about how long will the evil one reign and do these evil things. " he is told for a time, times and half which is considered to be the 3 1/2 years.

This is confirmed in Revelation 12:14
The woman who gave birth to the manchild, is the Jewish nation who brought forth Christ the Messiah and King, and God protects Isreal for a time, times and half a time. 3 1/2 years.

Now if there were a 7 year tribulation wouldn't it make sense that God would have protected the woman Israel for a week of years and not just 3 1/2 years?
 

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Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
WhiteEagle
That's why is sooo dislike the left behind books/movies, people use them to interpet the Bible.


As I've said, I'm not in ANY of the trib camps, I'm just looking to The Blessed Hope of Jesus' coming.

The rapture isn't clear in scripture, God didn't give us a very clear picture of future times, so why spend so much time and energy trying to make it clear.

Maybe if we spent more time and energy on things like:

THE GREAT COMMISION

Matthew 28:19-20
(19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."


The purpose of Revelation is to reveal Jesus, we read that book of The Bible to LEARN MORE ABOUT JESUS.

Guess what I get out of it folks

JESUS WINS

He fights a mighty battle and satan loses

Jesus is Holy

God WILL NOT be mocked

His wrath WILL be poured out

His justice WILL prevail

He will destroy this sin filled planet and make a NEW Heaven and earth.


And actually I'm getting ready tu study The Book of Revelation

Why?

Because this past Sunday, as I was walking thru the store at the truck stop I serve at (I volunteer as a truck stop chaplain) a couple of people stoped me and said:
"There's the chaplain, lets ask him. Hey chaplain we have some questions got a minute?"

They then started asking me questions about Israel, the land being given away, the hurricanes, all how they pertain to the end times.

I need to be better prepared to answer questions in this area, because more and more people will start asking questions.

This opens the door for me to give them Jesus.
 

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Posted by oneyearandcounting (Member # 4449) on :
 
Walt I can't agree with you more. But for some reason the Lord has put the whole pretrib rature theory on my heart. I also do notbelong to a rature camp per say, but I also see what the word is showing me.

God bless
greg
 

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Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

Even if it did, which it doesn't. that teaching gives lie to the fact that NO ONE KNOWS the HOUR that Christ will return, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. It will be like the days of Noah, when the unrighteous will be totally unprepared when Christ returns to claim His Kingdom

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Matt. 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Mark 13:32 "32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

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Originally posted by Aaron:

quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

Even if it did, which it doesn't. that teaching gives lie to the fact that NO ONE KNOWS the HOUR that Christ will return, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. It will be like the days of Noah, when the unrighteous will be totally unprepared when Christ returns to claim His Kingdom

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I must admit I have not studied the time line of the end-times. Some day I'll get to it.

I'd like to address these scriptures:

quote:

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Matt. 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Mark 13:32 "32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

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It is interesting that when we quote this truism we quote the Matthew version: "No one knows the hour, not any man or even the angels." This is a much safer version than the Mark version because the Mark version includes "the Son" among the "unknowing".

I think including the Son does not sit well with us...to say "Jesus does not know of His own return" seem somehow wrong.

Well, I think it is wrong.


Notice
a) It was God's Revelation 1st.
b) It was given to the Son.
b) The Son gave it to an angel.
c) It was given to a man, John.

Mark 13:32 reads "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

No one knows not: man > angels > Son > Only Father

Revelation 1:1 reverses the order.

Given from Father > Son > angel > man (John).

So, now (presently) the Son and the angels and man know the day. For "We are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."

Furthermore:

John 16: "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

See, there it is: "All things that the Father has are mine (even the knowledge of the Day) and I will declare them to you."

We need only have ears to hear and eyes to see.
We have many great watchmen on this board. Watch on! For the Lord approaches!

Bless you,
Aaron

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Originally posted by wparr:
WhiteEagle
That's why is sooo dislike the left behind books/movies, people use them to interpet the Bible.


As I've said, I'm not in ANY of the trib camps, I'm just looking to The Blessed Hope of Jesus' coming.

The rapture isn't clear in scripture, God didn't give us a very clear picture of future times, so why spend so much time and energy trying to make it clear.

Maybe if we spent more time and energy on things like:

THE GREAT COMMISION

Matthew 28:19-20
(19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."


The purpose of Revelation is to reveal Jesus, we read that book of The Bible to LEARN MORE ABOUT JESUS.

Guess what I get out of it folks

JESUS WINS

He fights a mighty battle and satan loses

Jesus is Holy

God WILL NOT be mocked

His wrath WILL be poured out

His justice WILL prevail

He will destroy this sin filled planet and make a NEW Heaven and earth.


And actually I'm getting ready tu study The Book of Revelation

Why?

Because this past Sunday, as I was walking thru the store at the truck stop I serve at (I volunteer as a truck stop chaplain) a couple of people stoped me and said:
"There's the chaplain, lets ask him. Hey chaplain we have some questions got a minute?"

They then started asking me questions about Israel, the land being given away, the hurricanes, all how they pertain to the end times.

I need to be better prepared to answer questions in this area, because more and more people will start asking questions.

This opens the door for me to give them Jesus.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Verse 6 would seem to suggest that the bridegroom who is Christ is already on His way when the call is made to go out and meet Him. After they go out to meet Him, as far as I know there is no mention that they hang around in the air, He keeps coming, bringing the Church with Him.

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Historical Doctrine of Imminency


1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.


2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.

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Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
I'm trying to figure out why we are still fighting about this issue. Obiously we aren't changing each others minds. And itisn't a salvation issue.I have said it before the only ones it would be a salvation issue too is the unsaved who have heard of the rapture and have decided to hold off on choosing Christ. But you know what if they hold off for any sign maybe
they are not his to begin with. God bless
greg

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Originally posted by wparr:
Actually Noah would NOT support Pre-trib rapture.
Noah was PROTECTED thru the storm- not taken out of it.
Noah is more a picture of Salvation- being In Christ and protected by Him.
God is the one who shut and sealed the door of the ark - not noah. (A picture of Eternal Security)

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Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
His grace at he same time if the church went thru the tribulation theire would be a major seperation of the wheat and the tares. Sorry I'm still not convinced.God bless greg

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Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Again I think that tribulation get confused with God's Wrath. Jesus implied that we would see tribulation and greater tribulation as the time draws to an end "for Satan know his time is short". But the true pouring of the "bowls of God's Wrath" on the earth for the cleansing of the unbelievers we will not experence.

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Therefore, it stands to reason that the church will not be around when God pours out his wrath.

Revelation 6:16,17 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who will be able to survive?"

(I see you are new here reflectingtheson - welcome to the Board. )
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

The tribulation is going to be something like never seen before by mankind. We can't even imagine.

It isn't very realistic to believe that every saint would be protected from this terrible carnage.

The following scripture describes the ones converted, many of them Jews, during the tribulation.
Rev.7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb.
Vrs.14 Then he said to me. "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
It doesn’t seem very fair to protect some of the saints from trouble and not others. Why would God allow some of His people to go through the tribulation and shelter others by snatching them away? At the time of the flood the righteous were all protected and the wicked all perished, there was no second chance once the door was shut.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

The saints will all ride upon the judgment that will destroy all of the wicked.

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44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.

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15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.

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39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.

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42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.

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A person has to ask themselves when we were told to watch for Christ coming did he mean his coming to rule or his coming to rapture the church?

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Originally posted by oneyearandcounting:
AS far as the men who have studied and taught they are just that men.

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Like I have said I believe there is a Rapture of the church just not before the tribulation.God bless greg

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And how do we watch for His return if we aren't supposed to be here to see the signs that He gave us ?

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
One more comment, the Tribulation is not the wrath of satan but the wrath that God pours out on the anti-Christ and his followers. If you read Revelations you will see that talks about God pouring out the bowls of wrath.

I too think it is sad that many Christians are not looking for the return of Jesus.
God bless you,
betty

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quote:

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Originally posted by whitesands777:
You'll notice that the first bowl is specifically poured out on those with the mark of the beast... The church doesn't need to be gone before then to escape that because true believers won't take the mark.

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from whitesands - 15 " Behold, I come as a thief . Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

This understanding would tie perfectly with the parable Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24 about the man not being overtaken unaware because he was watching...And also when Paul says that the day comes as a thief in the night and that we are not children of the night but of the day that the day would not take us unaware. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by wparr:
The purpose of the great tribulation is to bring ISRAEL back to God, the people getting saved will be JEWS - NOT gentiles.
The age of the gentiles will be over.

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Originally posted by HisGrace: And what do you think is going to happen to those who do not accept the mark of the beast? Many will be martyred.
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

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The very reason why the church will be lifted out before the tribulation begins. They have no role in fulfilling the prophesies set out in the OT.

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Even though they may not be affected directly by the plaques they will have to be affective, indirectly. Living through the tribulation will be no picnic. The anti-Christ and his people will be after anyone who does not have the mark to kill them.
The most important thing we can do as Christians is to pray for the lost and keep looking for Jesus.
betty

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
If they don’t believe and get saved through the Word they will not believe by graves opening.

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Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:

The most important thing we can do as Christians is to pray for the lost and keep looking for Jesus.
betty

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quote:Originally posted by Bloodbought:
If they don’t believe and get saved through the Word they will not believe by graves opening.

quote:Originally posted by HisGrace:
I think it would be a pretty scary feeling to be left behind.

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So we MUST do AWHOLE lot more than pray for the lost

We MUST show them Jesus in our lives

We MUST tell them about Jesus, with our mouths, using HIS Word.

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Originally posted by whitesands777:

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I don’t know who thought up this pre-trib stuff, it doesn’t sound right. There is only the second coming of Christ not a second coming to the air and then a third coming to the earth.

The hour Christ leaves His Heavenly place to return He will not stop until His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives. When He comes every eye will see Him and them that pierced Him.

The first time He came He brought salvation, the next time He is coming in judgment, those who are ready and covered by the blood will be saved and those who are not will be lost, there is no second chance.

I don’t know when He will come, but I am certain that He will come and I agree with those who say the most important thing is to be ready. It is so important to be ready to be caught up and not caught out.

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I assume that you agree that there will be a rapture or being caught up, but like me you are probably saying that both His Second Coming and us being caught up to Him is all part of the same event, which is what I am saying.

The Lord Yahshua-Jesus comes with the angels and with the glorified saints either from heaven or from the dead in Christ, they shall rise first and we who are alive and are Christians at that time shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye and shall ascend like Bethany into the clouds to meet the Oncoming Jesus in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The word “meet” in the phrase “meet the Lord in the air” is in Greek apantesis, which means “I go out to meet an oncoming person, and when I meet him/her, I turn around and go back with that person to where I came from.”

The word "apantesis" or "meet" only occurs three times in the NT, and here is a second one:

Acts 28:15
And from there, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet {Greek, apantesis} us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

Christian brethren came from Rome to Appii forum to meet or appantesis Paul, and when they had met Paul at Appii forum, the Christian brethren from Rome turned around and accompanied Paul to Rome where they had come from. So shall it be in the end of the age.

I came from earth in the rapture and so when I go up to meet the Lord in the air above earth, I turn around and go down with the Lord who is on His way to the mount of Olives on the east side of Jerusalem, to go split it into two halves.

May the LORD God of Israel bless us all on this BBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the of Yahshua-Jesus of Bethlehem of Judah (Micah 5:2)
 

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Posted by Watcher (Member # 3589) on :
 
Whitesands

II Peter 3:10-13
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.


Born Again
The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?

"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.

Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army’s members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Yes helpforhomeschooler,

The pre/mid/post trib belief system that is so cherished here is totally dependent on the 70th week of Daniel having not yet been administered. The 70th week of Daniel is the foundation of any pre/mid/post trib doctrine.

Believing in a yet future 70th week of Daniel creates many problems that neither you nor any other pre/mid/post trib believer can cope with, (including the “big boys”).

Shall we take a closer look at a couple, if that is it does not make you to mad?

1 The pre/mid/post trib assumption that all that is predicted to happen happens in a 7 year period at the end of the age.

2 The pre/mid/post trib assumption that nothing is like what will happen in this 7 year period.

(To give credit as promised helpforhomeschooler, the way that you and Caretaker were able to lift Esther’s uncle to the heights such as that of Isaiah 14:13 does take great skill, I for one am in awe.)
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
It will not make me mad and I feel quite able to show you how I deal with the things you call issues. I do not expect that I will change your beliefs however and in the end we will have to agree to disagree unless the Spirit moves you in some other direction. But I am always willing to share scripturally why I might not believe what you believe or why I believe what I believe and am willing to look at what scripture might have to contradict me and correct any thing I might be in error on.

Perhaps at some point we can also discuss Mordecai, but it will have to be next week. This week is always a very difficult one for me time wise ( the first week of the month)I do not have much for board time. Shall we make a date?

I am off for today I have to work outside the house today and cover 2 of my husbands stores for him, but I will try to get back this evening.

Shalom.
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
It is well known that most modern Christians do not study very much. That would definitely have to include this crowd. So maybe we can talk further about the movies, a place that I am sure you spend a lot of time at.

The stoic Marcus Aurelius was what is considered by most scholars, (there’s that bad word again) a good king. The reason that I choose Aurelius is because you have probably viewed the movie Gladiator, (you know, that movie where there is a lot of neat chariot action scenes).

In that movie did you happen to see any Christians in the arena, pre/mid/post trib believers?

Aurelius was one of the central Antonines. Most of his contemporary Caesars including his son Commodus liked to butcher Christians for sport. But Aurelius was not a mindless monster, he was a thinker.

Marcus Aurelius believed that the individual was obligated to the state and that that was a matter of law. This was the reason that Aurelius condoned the brutalization of helpless innocent Christians during his reign.

You see pre/mid/post trib believers, the early Christians were at war with the world and Aurelius knew and understood this. Maybe it was never declared or explained properly to Aurelius but he comprehended Luke 14:33 much better than you do. Aurelius knew that this particular statement of the Nazarene’s was an ultimatum.

Jesus was saying in Luke 14:33 that there is to be no terms for surrender except this-

That the surrender is going to be complete and unconditional.

It is so convenient that the pre/mid/post trib Christians have called a truce with the world. You know what kind of truce I mean. If you don’t bother me, then I won’t bother you. And to cement their agreement with the world they even acknowledge their “obligation” to its system.

How very convenient.
 

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Posted by whitesands777 (Member # 3424) on :
 

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Originally posted by Watcher:
Whitesands

II Peter 3:10-13
The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.

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"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.

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If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.

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posted by AMH
1 I have absolutely no respect for the pre/mid/post trib belief system

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I can see that you don't fall into any of the preconcieved ideas and I for one use to be a follower of the pre-trib crowd but upon further study and a willingness to make all scripture fit with each other I am seeing the end of all things to happen " On that great and terrible Day of the Lord" at the end of this era.
Since you proclaim not to follow the masses in the pre/mid/post trib belief system, I would like to know how you believe the end-time plays out from your study. I for one am always ready to challenge myself and belief to "be ready with an answer" for my calmness.
I also believe that if we are going to be here for the tribulation of the elect we had better be ready to flee to the wilderness with more than the recommended 72 hour kit of emergency supplies.

So what do you think? a true discussion of the last scenes of this passion play?

Rick
 

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Posted by Gramajo320 (Member # 4667) on :
 
Hi Betty,

Amen to your postings and I completely agree with you! They better begin figuring out what they'll say to God on Judgement Day for God is not ever wrong or ever in error! Betty, I'm with you - I am a pretriber and I believe in the rapture and no amount of their rudeness or making fun of you or I will ever change our minds! God Bless you lots, Betty!
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
reflectingtheson,

As you are a relatively new posting member here I do not know you. This means that I have no way of knowing if you are indeed genuine. At this time I only have your word for that.

You can see in this thread there is a heated battle ensuing. At any moment the tide can turn.

Shall the siege machines be turned off just for conversation's sake?
 

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Posted by reflectingtheson (Member # 5083) on :
 
AMH,
Yes it is only ones word on these threads that we have. No siege white flags only.
As I have stated in past post in this thread, Since the late 70's after reading 'Late great planet Earth' I have followed the pre-trib mindset. It seemed right and I probably read every fiction book out there since then. Then I read a book by a Jewish believer who supported a pre-wrath idea and I felt a tug on my spirit to search deeper. Since then it (the rapture) has for me been getting pushed farther and farther to the end of the age.
I am going to assume you know The Historicist School of prophecy. That is some of what I have been studing and it sure seems to fit without a prybar.
Anyway this will let you know where I stand for now.
Rick
 

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Posted by AMH (Member # 4895) on :
 
Rick,

Since you are so kind, I will ask you a question in keeping with the pre/mid/post trib belief system mind set.

The wrath of God meted out void of mercy and grace that the tribbers speak of concerning Daniel’s 70th week, (and that they are wont to avoid)-

What is your definition of such?

AMH
 

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Posted by reflectingtheson (Member # 5083) on :
 
AMH,
O.K. I see it this way, things are going to go on here , as in the days of Noah, and get progressively worse (Matthew 24). Then a time will come when ALL of the world will see a cloud coming toward the earth and the Lord will shout and send His angles to reap the world of all believers. The dead first and then those who will still be alive cause He cut those days short from the wrath of satan on the Elect. We meet him in that cloud and then

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The wrath of God meted out void of mercy and grace

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Posted by Whitesands777
However, there is not any recorded material of a fullfillment of the prophecies that deal with the actual return of Jesus...Nor is there any record of the fullfillment of the prophecies concerning the end of the age and the battle of Armageddon.


Preterist theory can't be supported by the scriptures unless they are grossly taken out of context...

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Seeing that every prophecy that was spoken about Jesus and later fullfilled is recorded...Doesn't it make sense that Jesus return would also be recorded ?

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Your portrayal of the Historicists’ views is not quit complete is it?

Don’t you want to be accurate here at the BBS?

You have left out one of the most important details of the Historicists’ belief system.

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...General Berthier, one of Napoleon’s generals, was sent to Rome in that year to take the pope prisoner. The pope died in exile in France the following year, and the French would not permit the election of another pope. People proclaimed, “The papacy is dead,” as once again Bible prophecy was perfectly fulfilled, precisely 1260 years after the papacy defeated the three nations who would not fall into line with its doctrine.

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In the Roman arena the mighty Christians did do battle with the dragon.

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In order to show the horror of the Massacre of Saint Bartholomew, the following is quoted from The Great Controversy, by E. G. White, Pacific Press Publishing Association, Mountain View, California, 1950, pages 272,273.

But blackest in the black catalogue of crime, most horrible among the fiendish deeds of all the dreadful centuries, was the St. Bartholomew Massacre. The world still recalls with shuddering horror the scenes of that most cowardly and cruel onslaught. The king of France, urged on by Romish priests and prelates, lent his sanction to the dreadful work. A bell, tolling at dead of night, was a signal for the slaughter. Protestants by thousands, sleeping quietly in their homes, trusting to the plighted honor of their king, were dragged forth without a warning and murdered in cold blood.

As Christ was the invisible leader of His people from Egyptian bondage, so was Satan the unseen leader of his subjects in this horrible work of multiplying martyrs. For seven days the massacre was continued in Paris, the first three with inconceivable fury. And it was not confined to the city itself, but by special order of the king was extended to all the provinces and towns where Protestants were found. Neither age nor sex was re(s)pected. Neither the innocent babe nor the man of gray hairs was spared. Noble and peasant, old and young, mother and child, were cut down together. Throughout France the butchery continued for two months. Seventy thousand of the very flower of the nation perished.

“When the news of the massacre reached Rome, the exultation among the clergy knew no bounds. The cardinal of Lorraine rewarded the messenger with a thousand crowns; the cannon of St. Angelo thundered forth a joyous salute; and bells rang out from every steeple; bonfires turned night into day; and Gregory XIII, attended by the cardinals and other ecclesiastical dignitaries, went in long procession to the church of St. Louis, where the cardinal of Lorraine chanted a Te Deum. . . . A medal was struck to commemorate the massacre, and in the Vatican may still be seen three frescoes of Vasari, describing the attack upon the admiral, the king in council plotting the massacre, and the massacre itself. Gregory sent Charles the Golden Rose; and four months after the massacre, . . . he listened complacently to the sermon of a French priest, . . . who spoke of that day so full of happiness and joy, when the most holy father received the news, and went in solemn state to render thanks to God and St. Louis.” — Henry White, The Massacre of St. Bartholomew, Ch. 14, par. 34.

We can easily see that the papacy had no hesitation in putting people to death for not obeying its dictates.

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Wrong Rick,

The dragon never totally destroyed the Christians at any time in history, including the future.

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Now to the matter of what you are leaving out of your Historicists’ message-

They claim that the Protestant church is the “false prophet” of Revelation.

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posted by oneyearandcounting
Paul himself mentioned not argueng about the sabboth.( I believe thats Texasgrmmas signiture) Why was that. Could it be as Christians we are not under the law, but infact we are held to a higher standard now.

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You like pirates don’t you Rick? Pirates sometimes trick their opponents by raising one flag only to raise another at the last minute. Some pirates can be very sharp at times.

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Originally posted by whitesands777:
Ya see..You wait for people to give you info and you proceed to pick it apart...Meanwhile you offer none of your beliefs because you're afraid that people will do the same to your post as you do to theirs...Your tactic is not much different from the pirates...
You know it's really safe for you to challenge people when they've already offered up their understandings while you hide in the protective covering of vagueness.

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Originally posted by AMH:
No, you only think that there has to be an explanation for you to believe in pre-trib. You will believe it no matter what.AMH
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From HisGrace I have quoted many scriptures to solidly back up my views AMH. I haven't seen one scripture from you to support your 'claims'. You quoted one little scripture - Hebrews 11:36-40 and that was referring to OT times.

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what a great devil the U.S. is. You know the Great Satan.

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Originally posted by AMH:
In the second posting to this thread HisGrace gives another misnomer-
I Thessalonians 1:9-10

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Do you pay taxes to the U.S. government?

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Do you accept the protection....from the U.S. government?

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Do you accept..... other benefits from the U.S. government?

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If you do then I say that you really do not believe that the U.S. is the “false prophet” or else you are in league with it.

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The wrath that Jesus saved us from is the place of torment prepared for the fallen.

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So where did your Historicist linage come from?

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Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Unforunatly the person I thought was getting shafted here as it seems to turn out does not want to discuss issues instead as I reviewed my posts and their replys what I see is; I am asked a question which I answer with my understanding and ask a reply question of which I get a slap down or belittling comment of my answer with no reasoning and No answer to my question or statement of their personal thought.

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Originally posted by AMH:

Now let me tell you what I think.

That it is disgraceful to compare the U.S. to the second or third worst character in the entire New Testament with out backing up the claim.

So tell us Rick, of the great short comings of the nation. Just how does the U.S. rate as the “false prophet”? What does your internet website crystal ball tell you of the great crimes that the U.S. is about to commit next? That is where you are getting your “doctrine” from isn’t it Rick? Tell us what a great devil the U.S. is. You know the Great Satan.

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17Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

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4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of *her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

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7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and *yet is.
9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

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12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."
15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

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