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Topic: I need some input...please.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
She could well be the New Age Relegion. We are seeing more and more people who consider themselves Christians, leaning towards doing away with public praying to Jesus and going instead with praying to a generic "god" so no one will be offended.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Aaron
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We know in the last days Satan will have beguile the world. The view of "America as Babylon" is too narrow.
I wanted to add this:
The in Revelation the whoare (for the sake of the filter) of Babylon is juxtaposed against the bride of Christ.
1st John is allowed to see the Lord and His dealing with the whoare then, in chapter 21, John is shown the bride of Christ.
Again, these two realities (the whoare and the bride) predate America by ages.
But the most important issue is this: a whoare is a counterfeit bride. She is a woman who seeks to gain a man for herself outside of the covenant of marriage...to even wreck a legitimate marriage between the husband and his wife. The kings of Babylon tried to steal the faith of the righteous in God. Babylon persists today as a temptress to the saints.
Babylon is a counterfeit religious system that existed from the time of Cain and Abel. Abel gave an offering that was provided of God. Cain gave of his own hands. God was pleased with Abel's offering. He despised Cain's. Cain killed Abel out of jealousy. This conflict continued into the time of the prophets...they were killed for their righteousness. This is what the Lord was speaking about in Luke 11:47->.
Babylon = a false religious system. And the Lord will one day call to the faithful entrapped in the whoare's deception: "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues." I believe He is already speaking this.
Aaron
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WhiteEagle
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Hi Aaron, thanks for your post. I do enjoy to be able to debate this subject.
Yes the spiritual wickedness of Babylon began with Able, I agree. Babylon represents the kingdom of satan on earth, and Satan was behind Cain killing Able.
We all came from Adam and Eve, as you know. And I agree that the kingdom of satan is throughout the whole world. Yet the Bible tells us it has a seat of authority or a center.
Rome wasn't around in the time of Able, yet many say that Rome is the Babylonian prostitute. Perhaps, but I currently don't believe that.
Rome doesn't have a melting pot of peoples in it, as America does have.
The geographic Babylon does NOT have a melting pot of peoples in it either at this time. Satan's center does keep moving around through history, it's the spirit that doesn't change.
Satan's seat goes to the highest world power. America has only become a world power after WW2.
Prior to that, we were not a world power. After WW2, and our world power status, this country has been in a spiritual struggle which is getting hotter at this time. That's why it seems our country is split in two, with half the people believing one way and the other half believing the opposite. Satan's stronghold is being established here.
After Russia fell, our struggle for righteousness as a nation really became more intense in the past 15 years. We were the strongest world power.
America has all the blood of the saints and prophets in her, as we carry the history of the world and the peoples of all ancient worlds here.
I am seeing the Economic spirit of Babylon currently falling. It started with the 911 World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks. It's continued with our war on terror, oil crisis, and natural disasters.
The World Trade Center was NOT just 2 towers. The whole center was in 7 tall buildings of which the 2 towers were the highest places. 911 destroyed all 7 buildings down to the basements.
Our defenses did hold as they hoped that a plane flying into just one of the compartments of the 5 sided pentagon would cause fire to encompass the whole building, yet it did NOT. It was contained to only one floor in which the plane flew into.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Aaron
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My dear WhiteEagle,
I must disagree with your assertion that America is Babylon.
I do not have much time (it is late) so for the sake of brevity I will touch only on a few topics.
quote:
17Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication."
3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Here John is in the Spirit so these things are to be taken metaphorically.
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4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of *her fornication. 5 And on her forehead a name was written:
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
It is quite clear that Babylon is against the church and has been against the church from the beginning. The Egyptian captivity of God's people was an economic one. The Babylonian captivity was one of religious oppression...the Babylonian kings tried to tempt/force the chosen of God to renounce their faith. This oppression of the saints is the embodiment of Babylon.
And, in reference to these verses : Luke 11:47-51 "Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,' 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation."
..we see that the "spirit" of Babylon existed even in the days of Abel (who was killed for his righteousness before God)
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7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and *yet is.
9 "Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.
Seven mountains are the seven continents of the world. Babylon is a world-wide reality. Babylon has been present through the reigns of various kings.
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12 "The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."
15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.
Babylon, through time, has worked her way into the hearts of people from all nations.
Certainly America has taken part in the deeds of Babylon but America is not Babylon. Babylon has existed since the time of Abel and is a world-wide phenomenon.
Aaron
P.S. I hope to add to this tomorrow.
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WhiteEagle
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quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
Now let me tell you what I think.
That it is disgraceful to compare the U.S. to the second or third worst character in the entire New Testament with out backing up the claim.
So tell us Rick, of the great short comings of the nation. Just how does the U.S. rate as the “false prophet”? What does your internet website crystal ball tell you of the great crimes that the U.S. is about to commit next? That is where you are getting your “doctrine” from isn’t it Rick? Tell us what a great devil the U.S. is. You know the Great Satan.
Rev 17:15-18
He also said to me,"The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages. The ten horns you saw and the Beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, devour her flesh, and burn her up with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His plan by having one purpose, and to give their kingdom to the beast until God's Word is accomplished".
And the woman you saw is that great city that has an empire over the kings of the earth.
Europe and Islam hate America. We are the lion's cub. Great Britian, and the symbol of the lion with eagle's wings was the symbol of ancient Babylon. Great Britian also has the symbol of the Lion with wings and once it was known that the sun never set on the British Empire.
We have the symbol of the Eagle. Our motto is E Plubius Unum or (out of many, One). America is the world in the sense we are made of immigrants from every country on the earth who are all Americans.
We have every tongue, nation, peoples, in our country. Amercia is the Great Wh--ore Babylon.
We once were a people who worshiped God in our laws and our behaviors. Our country has commited spiritual adultry on the national level. Our laws prove it.
I am a patriotic American, and mourn over our nations' lawlessness. I support the war in Iraq for liberty and freedom for the Iraqi people and realize that Saddam Hussain did facilitate the terrorists of 9-11.
I understand that many Americans are blind and feel our battles in Iraq are worthless, but this is a lie from the real Great Satan. He doesn't want us there. Many Americans embrace Marxism and are so unschooled they don't even realize that they are espousing Communism.
Islam is correct about one thing, America is not good any more. They know our God is removing His hand of protection. Islam worships Satan and call Allah -God, but Allah is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, nor the God Christ Jesus.
Islam is the beast and the 1st false prophet was Mohammad. They currently have a false prophet called Osama Bin Laden. Europe secretly supports the beast and so does Russia.
I love my God more than my country, America, but that doesn't mean I don't mourn what is happening.
My King is Eternal and not on earth. But once America followed God Almighty and gave God credit for His blessings. Now our nation refuses to do this.
America's great crimes?
Pornography is a 1st amendment right. Abortion on demand. Lack of integrity on the part of Senators, Representatives, and others high in government. Drug use. Control tactics by the government on it's citizens for the sake of safety. Control of government into most every area of it's citizen's lives. Electing a slime ball for President for 2 terms in 1993-1999. We got the pulse of the nation on that one. Refusing to allow public expressions on the civic level to pray or praise God. (We go against our own Constitution). A TV news media that is 100% propaganda machine for both sides. WACO massacre by our own Government and then covered up as caused by the victims themselves.
That's just the current stuff, I could go back in the past 200 years and cite other instances.
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WhiteEagle
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AMH:
Reading through your reponses to others, it seems you are not that hard to figure out.
You are just playing games. Hateful ones at that.
Prove yourself, and give true answers as to how You understand the end times, or if you can't do that, then at least stop playing games.
I wonder what demonination you belong to. Are you are Jehovah's Witness? Are you a Mormon?
Or are you of another sect? Or are you just someone with lots of time on their hands?
As far as another poster stating that America is the false prophet... and you seemingly having an issue with that, why don't you reply with facts to back up your own beliefs instead of attacking someone else's opinion.
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rancan6776
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Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
I wonder what the unsaved world that is lurking thinks when they read this stuff?
Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold.
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
And we let something like the timing of the rapture tear down all that we are supposed to be.
And if a brother or sister in Christ is found at fault or stumbles how are we supposed to handle that?
Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in the spirit of meekness; considering yourself, lest you also be tempted.
These are God's words not mine.
You never know who is watching.
Posts: 52 | From: east texas | Registered: Oct 2004
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Unforunatly the person I thought was getting shafted here as it seems to turn out does not want to discuss issues instead as I reviewed my posts and their replys what I see is; I am asked a question which I answer with my understanding and ask a reply question of which I get a slap down or belittling comment of my answer with no reasoning and No answer to my question or statement of their personal thought.
We shouldn't allow someone with a personal agenda to defeat us. Their comments often don't have any substance. If we see we aren't getting anywhere with such a person, we just have to walk away. There are other threads in which to get involved. Hope to still see you around reflectingtheson.
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reflectingtheson
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I for one am sorely disappointed. I have read these post of this forum for months before signing up. As this thread was advancing I thought AMH was getting the short end of the stick from several people so I attempted to engage in a true discussion with no personal attacks.
Some of you that have answered me back with your thoughts on the subject I thank you and those who have emailed me with honsesty a special thanks.
Unforunatly the person I thought was getting shafted here as it seems to turn out does not want to discuss issues instead as I reviewed my posts and their replys what I see is; I am asked a question which I answer with my understanding and ask a reply question of which I get a slap down or belittling comment of my answer with no reasoning and No answer to my question or statement of their personal thought.
I will say there have not been any direct personal attacks. And just so anyone cares to know me better to form any kind of a bond here. I came up in the Roman Catholic Church. Left it in my late teens. Floundered around in the world a while all the while believeing my roots of Father Son Holy Spirit. After this 30+ year journey I am here. Saved by Faith through Grace in Jesus looking longingly for His Second Coming which I believe is Near even at the door.
Hope to here from this group again.
Peace to you all.
with a tear,
Rick
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yahsway
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posted
AMH, and you are simply full of it! Ha,Bless you brother. Maybe if you would come down to earth a little, maybe we could be enlightened if even for just one post. Thanks. oy vey sheessssh
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AMH
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yahsway,
I see that you are still full of apologies.
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yahsway
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Whitesands, I think what AMH has just said is that true believers possess an understanding of spiritual realities through the illuminating ministry of the Ruach(Holy Spirit).
Although I believe this to be true, I sometimes find "some" people to be so Heavenly minded that they are no earthly good if you know what I mean?
ps: Don't take the "final exam". You're bound to fail it! Shabbat Shalom
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AMH
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reflectingtheson,
Even though you have left your first love, you still suffer from the same ailment. You and the pre/mid/post trib people need someone to do all the thinking for you. You want everything wrapped up in a neat little package so that you can go home to mamma and tell her what good little boys and girls that you are.
Just shut your mind off and engage your mouth.
Have you never read the most dangerous passage in the Bible?
20) But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (I John 2:20)
I am not reading you so good today Rick so maybe this does not include you but-
Inside of every believer there is this, “feeling”, that cannot exactly be described. Every once in a while this “feeling” wells up inside and it must come out or else there would be a “soul explode”. This “feeling” is part of that rare “writing on the wall” of our hearts that is the job of every believer to interpret. You see, God has written there on our hearts. Not Dr. Adrian Rodgers, not Dr. Scofield, not author Tim LaHaye, not Sir Isaac Newton or Aristotle or anyone else.
God did it.
Of course there are rules for engagement. But you don’t need me even for that.
Now we have had a nice little discussion, (the tribbers and I). And the final exam must take place.
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whitesands777
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AMH...If you sincerely think that peoples understanding of the Bible is incorrect then understand a true Christian would desire to instruct them...
There is a way to do this without insulting them...
However, my question is what is your motive for vagueness ? You know that vagueness is used by those on a quest for power ?
You are exploiting people perhaps unknowingly.
We're still waiting on your explanation of Noah and Lot...
Where is it ?
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
So where did your Historicist linage come from?
Yes you are correct in that from the reformers of the 17th century who were fighting againt the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church that became the great Protestant churches. But in the last two and half centuries they mostly have become milktoast. Do you not agree? I think as organizations they have left their 'first love'.
But again I ask you how you see the endtime senerio playing out? No riddles, no questions just the plain word of statements, please. You may get me thinking in a different direction. I mean through study I have left the pre-trib/mid-trib/post-trib rapture cause I don't think there is a 7year period. Just a continuing of things growing progressively worse until His second coming at which time 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17comes into play.
Rick
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AMH
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posted
I understand your postings Rick.
So you don’t like the ancestry of the Protestant churches?
Their mother is not to your standard?
So where did your Historicist linage come from?
It would seem that the Historicists want to run from their sisters. You see the Historicist view was cut from the same cloth, only those who generally show shame for their parents are usually trying to hide some illegitimate indiscretion.
Your ploy will not work here. Run to the arms of the loving pre/mid/post trib. Their doctrine is sugar wrapped in pure candy. Just like they like it.
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AMH
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Very good HisGrace,
You have taken the first step. The Bible is not really your property. The One that did write it also has ownership of it.
Now we can begin to get somewhere.
Since you claim by inference to have the gift of interpreting-
Do your job. Interpret the meaning of all the Christian’s visits to the Arena.
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
Do you pay taxes to the U.S. government?
Yes, with my nose held for all the horrible spending they do in Waashington but "render unto Rome...."
quote:
Do you accept the protection....from the U.S. government?
Yes, national defence and state and local police and fire that I pay for.
quote:
Do you accept..... other benefits from the U.S. government?
NO, too rich to be poor and too poor to be rich. Besides I was taught to take care of oneself and his family through a healthy work ethic.
quote:
If you do then I say that you really do not believe that the U.S. is the “false prophet” or else you are in league with it.
Reread my post from this morning on page 6 to understand how I feel.
quote:
The wrath that Jesus saved us from is the place of torment prepared for the fallen.
Well try this on for size. I believe that there is not a place of everylasting torment as in a lake of fire that we in some far off century might run across. As I read in scripture the devil, his fallen followers and all the unbelievers will be consumed in an everlasting fire at the end of the 1000 years to become "Ash under our feet" and will be known no more and it will be as"if they never were". Now that I typed it, I can see, that still classifies as a "wrath" just not a forever place of torment.
Still not blasting you AMH. As I said White Flag. I have not belittle you personaly or disaggreed with malice, but still wondering how you see the endtime senerio playing out?
Posts: 43 | From: Baton Rouge, LA | Registered: Sep 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
In the second posting to this thread HisGrace gives another misnomer-
I Thessalonians 1:9-10
I didn't write the Bible AMH. Therefore it is impossible for I Thess.1: 9-10 to be a misnomer -
for they themselves keep talking about the wonderful welcome you gave us and how you turned away from idols to serve the true and living God.
And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God's Son from heaven--Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment.
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AMH
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Rick,
If you are being sincere about the U.S. being the “false prophet” then why are you supporting it?
Do you pay taxes to the U.S. government?
Do you accept the protection and other benefits from the U.S. government?
If you do then I say that you really do not believe that the U.S. is the “false prophet” or else you are in league with it.
I am not blasting you. Just give straight talk. Not like the pre/mid/post trib Doctors.
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AMH
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Very funny whitesands777 and HisGrace,
That is the point isn’t it? That you are not quite up to figuring out things. Not only can you not figure out the New Testament prophecies that are right before your own eyes, you can’t even figure out a worthless ignorant slug like me.
Since HisGrace has come out of hiding let’s take a look at another one of the pre/mid/post trib belief system subtleties while our resident Historicist takes a breather.
In the second posting to this thread HisGrace gives another misnomer-
I Thessalonians 1:9-10
That the wrath that Jesus saved us from is Daniel's 70th week.
Can you guys come up with a Doctor that can give a straight diagnosis?
The wrath that Jesus saved us from is the place of torment prepared for the fallen.
So you don’t want to share in the suffering do you? Good. Then there will be more room in heaven as only those willing to share in Christ’s suffering will share in Christ’s glory.
Have you two ever heard of the Master’s advice concerning pearls?
And what not to do with them?
And why?
Would you ever like to rend right about now!
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reflectingtheson
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Thanks for the Kind words, whitesands777. I have not changed my flag so to speak as AMH has blasted me for. I have given my account of how I see the Great Passion Play unfolding.
Not only have I not called my country the Great Satan but I am ashamed of the direction it appears to be going in. I'm 48 years old and can remember a happier time of kids playing in the street until dark, apple pie and lazy summer days. Now you can't let your kid out of your sight for fear of some rapest or gangs etc.
So with that being said, we are all looking at endtime prophecy though shaded glasses, albeit some through rosecolored, those who think things will get better and better until utopia is here, so it isn't that America will do horrible things, it is that we probably will pass more laws to control people in the name of "homeland security".
How many people would have guessed that we would have to remove our shoes to enter an airplane? Oh, but it is for security, They cry. You can't enter a public building hardly without passing metal detectors or being searched. I just think as a few more attacks from our enemies take place "we" as America will demand more measures for security and give up greater privacy. And if the enemy continues to claim the name of Allah this country will demand an allengence to "GOD" but in this PC world we live in Jesus' name will not be mentioned.
All ready there is a company who whats to do transaction to "buy and sell" using fingerprints in San Fransico. Do any of us really know what the "MARK" is? So if the "Christian " world feels threaten by Islamic Radicals both here and overseas who else can make everyone follow such a strick way of life if not this nation.I mean who would listen to Brazil or France or any other nation if some law was passed to require all people to a register of some kind for an accounting.
My belief is, since I think we beliveres will be here all the way through to the end, that the endtime event will be not be as stark clear so even the unaware or uninformed will see it clearly, it will be sly and candycoated and taste sweet to the world and so deceptive that "Even the elect might be deceived" if they are not paying attention.
Whew so in closing this note it is not that I am telling you AMH and anyone else quote:
what a great devil the U.S. is. You know the Great Satan.
it is that I see this country being lead down a primrose path to an end that is not worthy of its begining. And I weep.
Rick
Posts: 43 | From: Baton Rouge, LA | Registered: Sep 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
Ya see..You wait for people to give you info and you proceed to pick it apart...Meanwhile you offer none of your beliefs because you're afraid that people will do the same to your post as you do to theirs...Your tactic is not much different from the pirates...
You know it's really safe for you to challenge people when they've already offered up their understandings while you hide in the protective covering of vagueness.
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
No, you only think that there has to be an explanation for you to believe in pre-trib. You will believe it no matter what.AMH
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From HisGrace I have quoted many scriptures to solidly back up my views AMH. I haven't seen one scripture from you to support your 'claims'. You quoted one little scripture - Hebrews 11:36-40 and that was referring to OT times.
Amen Whitesands! I made this quote almost 200 posts ago and nothing has changed. AMH isn't fooling anyone. He's just playing games.
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whitesands777
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AMH....
quote:
You like pirates don’t you Rick? Pirates sometimes trick their opponents by raising one flag only to raise another at the last minute. Some pirates can be very sharp at times.
Ya see..You wait for people to give you info and you proceed to pick it apart...Meanwhile you offer none of your beliefs because you're afraid that people will do the same to your post as you do to theirs...Your tactic is not much different from the pirates...
You know it's really safe for you to challenge people when they've already offered up their understandings while you hide in the protective covering of vagueness.
You say you don't trust Rick but what reason have you left him to trust you ? You are doing to him exactly what you are afraid of happening to you...
I have sifted through your posts and every single one of them is nothing but a vague and open ended teardown of endtime theories comepletely void of any explanation as to why you think they are incorrect and what you think is a correct interpretation.
If you're going to disagree with a particular theory, at least be brave enough to offer an explanation... You kept asking about Noah and Lot and letting everyone know how unintelligent they are because they couldn't give you the information that you seem to secretly know....But you yourself might as well put yourself into the same boat because you yourself have yet to offer up the "accurate interpretation" of noah and lot.
AMH....Because of your secrecy I'm inlcined to think that you belong the JW's...And if you are then you need to get out as quickly as possible.
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AMH
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posted
OK Rick,
As I wrote before, I do not know you so I could not trust you. You said that you raised the white flag. Now you come out very strong and you have no white flag.
You like pirates don’t you Rick? Pirates sometimes trick their opponents by raising one flag only to raise another at the last minute. Some pirates can be very sharp at times.
Now let me tell you what I think.
That it is disgraceful to compare the U.S. to the second or third worst character in the entire New Testament with out backing up the claim.
So tell us Rick, of the great short comings of the nation. Just how does the U.S. rate as the “false prophet”? What does your internet website crystal ball tell you of the great crimes that the U.S. is about to commit next? That is where you are getting your “doctrine” from isn’t it Rick? Tell us what a great devil the U.S. is. You know the Great Satan.
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
posted by oneyearandcounting
Paul himself mentioned not argueng about the sabboth.( I believe thats Texasgrmmas signiture) Why was that. Could it be as Christians we are not under the law, but infact we are held to a higher standard now.
You are quite right in most of what you say. Paul was mostly speaking of the special sabbaths that happen during the year that most of the jews wanted the new christians to observe.
But the seventh day rest of the fourth commandment was set by God on the seventh day of creation and has not and will not be changed for all eternity. The bible states that in the new heaven and new earth we will go up continually every sabbath (7th day) and every new moon for the eating of the twelve fruit of the tree of life in New Jerusalem.
My point here is to show that is was papal rome that changed this along with the commandments to reflec their thinking. If you look at the true 10 commandment and compare them to the roman catholic version you will find that the pope threw out the 3rd all together (hard to have idols and statutes to burn candles to and give money to if it is breaking a God breathed Law) moved the 4th to the third position and shorten it to "Keep the Sabbath" and split the tenth into two to keep it to 10 commandments.
Do I follow it 4th to a 'T'? Well I try to do no profitable work on Saturday at this time but I must tell you all I am just learning this and this world is set up today to make the most of a Saturday.
What about 'we are free from the LAW'? Well the jewish laws, the holyday laws, the 640 talmud laws, the manmade thou shalt not whatever laws, YES and YES!! But God's only handwritten in stone for all eternity LAWS. Never. And if we say that that only mattered to the jewish people and as Christain we aren't under the 7th day 4th commandment then does that mean the others are open to us as well. I can steal that Plasma TV cause it was a hurricane, I can bed my neighbors spouse cause they are out of town, I can have other god's and pray to saint or Mary cause He's not enough?
GOD FORBID!!!!!!
Also oneyearandcounting Yes everyday is a sabbath rest in our Lord.
Thanks for the question.
Rick
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oneyearandcounting
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He didn't.
But didn't Christ himself say that man wasn't made for the Sabboth but the Sabboth for the man.
Didn't he also say that he was the Lord of the Sabboth?
I personnally don't have a big deal with either day as the Sabboth. My point is and please someone correct me if I am wrong, but If Christ is the Lord of the Sabboth. Then wouldn't that mean that any day could be our Sabboth as long as as long as we kept that day as a day to God.
Paul himself mentioned not argueng about the sabboth.( I believe thats Texasgrmmas signiture) Why was that. Could it be as Christians we are not under the law, but infact we are held to a higher standard now.
Anyways sorry to get you off your history thing but the whole Sabboth thing is something that has botherd me for awhile. Maybe thas why I try to spend every day in Christ.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
Wrong Rick,
The dragon never totally destroyed the Christians at any time in history, including the future.
No I'm not wrong and you are right. Not "totally" as in the whole of christianty. Just to a person were they destroyed, their lives, homes, families down through the ages. That was my meaning. Such as the people in the Sudan and other countries where they, to a person , are being put to death or in tribulation of thier lives.
quote:
Now to the matter of what you are leaving out of your Historicists’ message-
They claim that the Protestant church is the “false prophet” of Revelation.
That may be to some true but as I study it America will be that false prophet. America came up out of the wilderness unlike the beast which came up out of the sea of humanity. America is the eighth, yet part of the seventh and gives power to the beast.
The Protestant churches are the daughters of the Harlot since they follow the edicts of the roman catholic chuch. Worship on Sunday, Easter Christmas, all saints day, etc. How many of the Protestant leaders call the pope 'Holy Father' even though there is only One Holy and He is in heaven.
I know I am going to hear it for that one.
But before anyone gets upset, lets just take the first one, tell me where in the bible God changed His day of Sabbath Rest from Saturday to Sunday.
Rick
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oneyearandcounting
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ok I for one am following this as you too go back and forth. To me it's very interesting . Since not only the Bible but history that proved the exsitance of God and his son Jesus Christ, to me. Keep going.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
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AMH
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Wrong Rick,
The dragon never totally destroyed the Christians at any time in history, including the future.
As far as being brief-
Those of this world are forever in a hurry because they soon run out of time. The child of God has no such limitations. If the child of God is struck down in this life for any reason then he/she is raise incorruptible. And the harvest is an hundred fold.
Now to the matter of what you are leaving out of your Historicists’ message-
They claim that the Protestant church is the “false prophet” of Revelation.
Show me.
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
In the Roman arena the mighty Christians did do battle with the dragon.
Yes they did and most of the time they were totally destroyed by the dragon. But to the Glory of God did they suffer. Take for example
quote:
In order to show the horror of the Massacre of Saint Bartholomew, the following is quoted from The Great Controversy, by E. G. White, Pacific Press Publishing Association, Mountain View, California, 1950, pages 272,273.
But blackest in the black catalogue of crime, most horrible among the fiendish deeds of all the dreadful centuries, was the St. Bartholomew Massacre. The world still recalls with shuddering horror the scenes of that most cowardly and cruel onslaught. The king of France, urged on by Romish priests and prelates, lent his sanction to the dreadful work. A bell, tolling at dead of night, was a signal for the slaughter. Protestants by thousands, sleeping quietly in their homes, trusting to the plighted honor of their king, were dragged forth without a warning and murdered in cold blood.
As Christ was the invisible leader of His people from Egyptian bondage, so was Satan the unseen leader of his subjects in this horrible work of multiplying martyrs. For seven days the massacre was continued in Paris, the first three with inconceivable fury. And it was not confined to the city itself, but by special order of the king was extended to all the provinces and towns where Protestants were found. Neither age nor sex was re(s)pected. Neither the innocent babe nor the man of gray hairs was spared. Noble and peasant, old and young, mother and child, were cut down together. Throughout France the butchery continued for two months. Seventy thousand of the very flower of the nation perished.
“When the news of the massacre reached Rome, the exultation among the clergy knew no bounds. The cardinal of Lorraine rewarded the messenger with a thousand crowns; the cannon of St. Angelo thundered forth a joyous salute; and bells rang out from every steeple; bonfires turned night into day; and Gregory XIII, attended by the cardinals and other ecclesiastical dignitaries, went in long procession to the church of St. Louis, where the cardinal of Lorraine chanted a Te Deum. . . . A medal was struck to commemorate the massacre, and in the Vatican may still be seen three frescoes of Vasari, describing the attack upon the admiral, the king in council plotting the massacre, and the massacre itself. Gregory sent Charles the Golden Rose; and four months after the massacre, . . . he listened complacently to the sermon of a French priest, . . . who spoke of that day so full of happiness and joy, when the most holy father received the news, and went in solemn state to render thanks to God and St. Louis.” — Henry White, The Massacre of St. Bartholomew, Ch. 14, par. 34.
We can easily see that the papacy had no hesitation in putting people to death for not obeying its dictates.
I shudder to think of how many of todays "christian" will backpeddle when they see something like this coming down the street.
This will be the great seperation of the wheat and tares in the last days.
Rick
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AMH
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The pre/mid/post trib people believe that the “coming” 70th week of Daniel is going to be like nothing else has ever been. That the suffering is going to be greater than any that has ever gone before.
This is the reason why the pre/mid/post trib people do not like, will not study and refuse to acknowledge the lessons from history.
The pre/mid/post trib people can only be described as “poor historians”.
Think about this for one moment:
You never answer my challenge concerning history. Why?
It is because your belief system has left you impudent. The most that you can ever do is turn to name calling. That is it. (Of course this tactic is brushed aside forthwith.)
If I were to begin to describe in detail, (and I can do it) the suffering of the Christians for the first 1500 years or so then I would venture to say that our host here at the BBS would have grounds for my dismissal. Now our host here at the BBS is a fair and honest person, so I would not be inclined to do such of a thing.
Luckily, I do not have to give such a detailed description as others have already taken up that mantle. It is only left for you to pay attention to such work.
In Isaiah chapter 14 there is another of those sordid stories that continues to creep its way into the human family. Someone is trying to take the place of God. Now our Father in heaven does not sit on a throne made like any that is found on earth. So why would such a one as that of Isaiah chapter 14 ever think that he/she could sit physically on such? Ours is a spiritual battle. No amount of physical material of any sort can match weapons of the spirit.
The one aspiring to take God’s place is a known thief who wants more than any thing to steal God’s glory.
Did you know that God is not selfish?
That He is willing to share of Himself?
That if He has something that He wants us to share with Him?
We cannot have deity as some have promised and others have attempted. But there is a certain “glory” that we are going to share if we are faithful and that to the end.
In the Roman arena the mighty Christians did do battle with the dragon.
But the new Christians of today want to rob the ancient Christians, our forefathers of their well earned glory.
For shame on you pre/mid/post trib belief system people!
You can never have their glory.
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
Your portrayal of the Historicists’ views is not quit complete is it?
Don’t you want to be accurate here at the BBS?
You have left out one of the most important details of the Historicists’ belief system.
I do want to be accurate but given the limited time I have and the amount of material that would be needed to explain my thoughts, I try to be brief yet to the point. Maybe some fellow believers will begin to look at this subject differently maybe not? I am just putting out the info.
So which detail have I left out that you, AMH are refering? I'll gladly give it up to finish 'the rest of the story' so to speak.
I did make a slight mistake in my last post. The last kingdom uprooted (the Ostrogoths) was in 538 AD. After 1260 year/(days) this beast recieved a mortal blow to his head by the French who in 1798 quote:
...General Berthier, one of Napoleon’s generals, was sent to Rome in that year to take the pope prisoner. The pope died in exile in France the following year, and the French would not permit the election of another pope. People proclaimed, “The papacy is dead,” as once again Bible prophecy was perfectly fulfilled, precisely 1260 years after the papacy defeated the three nations who would not fall into line with its doctrine.
It was not until 1929 when Cardinal Gaspari and Mussolini, the leader of Italy during the Second World War, signed a concordat which made the pope a king again. "And all the world wonder after the beast whose deadly wound was healed"
Just look at how the world wonders after the pope today. So as I see it the Antichrist is not one man but a system of governace who's head is the pope. Look back during the Dark Ages and not a king or his subjects would do nothing without the pope's approval. For 1260 years the papacy was the ruler of the world.
Rick
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AMH
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reflectingtheson,
Wait just a minute here Rick.
Your portrayal of the Historicists’ views is not quit complete is it?
Don’t you want to be accurate here at the BBS?
You have left out one of the most important details of the Historicists’ belief system. I know that everyone here is just dying to hear the full story.
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
Posted by Whitesands777
However, there is not any recorded material of a fullfillment of the prophecies that deal with the actual return of Jesus...Nor is there any record of the fullfillment of the prophecies concerning the end of the age and the battle of Armageddon.
Preterist theory can't be supported by the scriptures unless they are grossly taken out of context...
I agree that is why I think the second coming is yet future. However some of the prophectic images in Revelation and Daniel does seem to have its fulfillment in past events which is the historist viewpoint.
Lets take for example Daniel's image of the beast that comes out of the sea with ten horns. "And as I ponder the horns another little horn came up among the others. It uprooted three of the first. It had eyes of a man and a mouth boasting proudly. And this little horn will change the days and festival and God's people will be under his power."
In the historist view the terrible iron beast is the roman empire. The ten horns were the ten kindoms that the roman empire divided into around the second century. The little horn was another kingdom that arose from within the ten. It was a kingdom that was different from the others. This is viewed as the roman catholic church in the latter third century and the three uprooted horns were kindoms in north Africa with the last one being uprooted in 534 AD. From that time until 1260 years latter the Catholic church ruled the world and change the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday and the festival of the pagans to holy days by adding Christ name to them.
Just a brief history of what has been for me hours of reading and studying to see that the dates and events do fall into place.
quote:
Seeing that every prophecy that was spoken about Jesus and later fullfilled is recorded...Doesn't it make sense that Jesus return would also be recorded ?
Yes I agree, and it will be, but it has not been yet fulfilled though I look longingly for that day with the hope of seeing it be fulfilled yet if I am asleep(dead) to the ressurection to Life.
Rick
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AMH
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It is getting close to final examine time, (are you ready).
Before we go there, one last subject-
Art.
I have been portrayed in this thread as “working for the devil”, “mean spirited”, “condescending” and a “mean, bitter, vindictive person”. And oh yes a “Christian”.
Thank you for all these compliments. Coming from you, I would not want it any other way.
But wait just a minute.
It has also been said that I am trying to steal.
Shall we see who the real thief actually is here at this thread of ours?
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AMH
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Whitesands777,
You are not addressing anything that I have said, (you know, the preterist thing, another one of those belief systems that can be easily disposed of).
I will agree with one thing that you have said-
Jesus has not returned yet, that is a fact, (but even the blind can find an acorn once in a while, besides there is also a prophecy that the unregenerate will scoff because they think He delays His return.)
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whitesands777
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Seeing that every prophecy that was spoken about Jesus and later fullfilled is recorded...Doesn't it make sense that Jesus return would also be recorded ?
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whitesands777
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O.k....We have all the prophecies about Jesus in the OT given to us by God and recorded by the prophets very carefully...We have the actual fullfillment of those prophecies of Jesus carefully recorded in the new testament...We have all of the prophecies of His return and the end of the age carefully recorded...
However, there is not any recorded material of a fullfillment of the prophecies that deal with the actual return of Jesus...Nor is there any record of the fullfillment of the prophecies concerning the end of the age and the battle of Armageddon.
Preterist theory can't be supported by the scriptures unless they are grossly taken out of context...
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reflectingtheson
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Right I don't really hold that there is going to be a 70th week. From Daniel's time to Christ was 69 weeks.
Christ was the one who made a covenant with the many and was cut off in mid week. And then with the stoning of Stephen 3-1/2 years later, that was the end of the 70th week.
At least this is one of the studies I am reading through.
As I use the word tribulation it is in the meaning of satan aqainst the elect cause he knows his time is short. He want to stop Christ from His work so he will think if he can kill all the christians he will win. That is why the Lord cuts the days of tribulation short. Not a trib period of 7 years cause it would not be seven years if it is shorten for the elect sake. I beleive He want some living christian see him comeing back just as they saw him leave. Bodily in a cloud.
Rick
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AMH
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Rick,
But there is only one place in all of God’s creation that the good Lord does not show mercy and grace.
We all know this place. It was made for the devil and his angles. Man was never intended for it.
So that the pre/mid/post trib theory of Daniel’s 70th week concerning God’s wrath is void of truth.
There is a danger for you and all of us that we will become infected by the leaven that has entered in through the trib gate. (Do not let them dictate the dialog as they do not hold the high ground.)
Andy
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reflectingtheson
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AMH,
O.K. I see it this way, things are going to go on here , as in the days of Noah, and get progressively worse (Matthew 24). Then a time will come when ALL of the world will see a cloud coming toward the earth and the Lord will shout and send His angles to reap the world of all believers. The dead first and then those who will still be alive cause He cut those days short from the wrath of satan on the Elect. We meet him in that cloud and then quote:
The wrath of God meted out void of mercy and grace
come on all those Left Behind.
To me this is the 7 bowls of God's Wrath poured out on the earth. As I see it that leaves every living thing on the earth dead and all the landmass destroyed by the hail and earthquake and all of mans wonders burned up. This leaves the earth "Void and Without Form" as in the first verse of Genesis since the word Abyss is the same word used there.
Does that make sense the way I wrote it?
My Mind races as I try to type and I am not that great of a typer.
Rick
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AMH
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Rick,
Since you are so kind, I will ask you a question in keeping with the pre/mid/post trib belief system mind set.
The wrath of God meted out void of mercy and grace that the tribbers speak of concerning Daniel’s 70th week, (and that they are wont to avoid)-
What is your definition of such?
AMH
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reflectingtheson
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AMH,
Yes it is only ones word on these threads that we have. No siege white flags only.
As I have stated in past post in this thread, Since the late 70's after reading 'Late great planet Earth' I have followed the pre-trib mindset. It seemed right and I probably read every fiction book out there since then. Then I read a book by a Jewish believer who supported a pre-wrath idea and I felt a tug on my spirit to search deeper. Since then it (the rapture) has for me been getting pushed farther and farther to the end of the age.
I am going to assume you know The Historicist School of prophecy. That is some of what I have been studing and it sure seems to fit without a prybar. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Anyway this will let you know where I stand for now.
Rick
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AMH
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reflectingtheson,
As you are a relatively new posting member here I do not know you. This means that I have no way of knowing if you are indeed genuine. At this time I only have your word for that.
You can see in this thread there is a heated battle ensuing. At any moment the tide can turn.
Shall the siege machines be turned off just for conversation's sake?
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Gramajo320
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Hi Betty,
Amen to your postings and I completely agree with you! They better begin figuring out what they'll say to God on Judgement Day for God is not ever wrong or ever in error! Betty, I'm with you - I am a pretriber and I believe in the rapture and no amount of their rudeness or making fun of you or I will ever change our minds! God Bless you lots, Betty!
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Gramajo320
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reflectingtheson
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quote:
posted by AMH
1 I have absolutely no respect for the pre/mid/post trib belief system
I can see that you don't fall into any of the preconcieved ideas and I for one use to be a follower of the pre-trib crowd but upon further study and a willingness to make all scripture fit with each other I am seeing the end of all things to happen " On that great and terrible Day of the Lord" at the end of this era.
Since you proclaim not to follow the masses in the pre/mid/post trib belief system, I would like to know how you believe the end-time plays out from your study. I for one am always ready to challenge myself and belief to "be ready with an answer" for my calmness.
I also believe that if we are going to be here for the tribulation of the elect we had better be ready to flee to the wilderness with more than the recommended 72 hour kit of emergency supplies.
So what do you think? a true discussion of the last scenes of this passion play?
Rick
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AMH
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I did not say nor ever would I say that I do not respect you ladies. I said that I do not respect the pre/mid/post trib belief system.
There is a difference.
If the rest or any part of what I have said is untrue then please would someone here enlighten me, instead of getting personal?
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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God bless you GramaJo!!
Jesus is coming back soon. He will wipe away the tears we have shed and He will avenge us of those who make fun of us for believing the Bible.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Gramajo320
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AMH,
You need to know and to remember every day that not everyone shares your beliefs nor do they have to! Just because others believe differently than you do is no excuse for you to be so rude! You need to repect others and their right to their beliefs! I am a pretriber and I believe in the rapture and that's just the way it is! You will please quit being rude to others!
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Gramajo320
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