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Author
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Topic: I need some input...please.
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WhiteEagle
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Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Even if it did, which it doesn't. that teaching gives lie to the fact that NO ONE KNOWS the HOUR that Christ will return, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. It will be like the days of Noah, when the unrighteous will be totally unprepared when Christ returns to claim His Kingdom
I must admit I have not studied the time line of the end-times. Some day I'll get to it.
I'd like to address these scriptures:
quote:
Matt. 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
Mark 13:32 "32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
It is interesting that when we quote this truism we quote the Matthew version: "No one knows the hour, not any man or even the angels." This is a much safer version than the Mark version because the Mark version includes "the Son" among the "unknowing".
I think including the Son does not sit well with us...to say "Jesus does not know of His own return" seem somehow wrong.
Well, I think it is wrong.
Notice
a) It was God's Revelation 1st.
b) It was given to the Son.
b) The Son gave it to an angel.
c) It was given to a man, John.
Mark 13:32 reads "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
No one knows not: man > angels > Son > Only Father
Revelation 1:1 reverses the order.
Given from Father > Son > angel > man (John).
So, now (presently) the Son and the angels and man know the day. For "We are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."
Furthermore:
John 16: "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
See, there it is: "All things that the Father has are mine (even the knowledge of the Day) and I will declare them to you."
We need only have ears to hear and eyes to see.
We have many great watchmen on this board. Watch on! For the Lord approaches!
Bless you,
Aaron
Aaron, interesting post, I agree it doesn't sit well to think that Jesus doesn't know when He's coming back, but as you pointed out in The Revelation of Christ He now does Know.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Member # 847
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posted
Greg,
The Bible says to be looking for Jesus return. If we do that, we cannot go wrong. God bless you, Brother.
betty
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
Betty
thank you for the website to look at. At glanced at it q1uickly and my first opinion is I have the same questions. So on that note I am also going to say that I will not beposting on this subject to you Betty anymore. This is because of an earlier post where you claimed that someone harassed you enough to dought yourself.
God bless you
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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AMH
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posted
That is not an answer. I take it that you have no answer. Just as I suspected.
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AMH
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Member # 4895
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posted
TEXASGRANDMA,
As an answer I give the familiar Calvinistic poem-
THE STARFISH POEM
Once upon a time there was a wise man
who used to go to the ocean
to do his writing.
He had a habit of walking
on the beach
before he began his work.
One day he was walking along
the shore.
As he looked down the beach,
he saw a human
figure moving like a dancer.
He smiled to himself to think
of someone who would
dance to the day.
So he began to walk faster
to catch up.
As he got closer, he saw
that it was a young man
and the young man wasn't dancing,
but instead he was reaching
down to the shore,
picking up something
and very gently throwing it
into the ocean.
As he got closer he called out,
"Good morning! What are you doing?"
The young man paused,
looked up and replied,
"Throwing starfish in the ocean."
"I guess I should have asked,
why are you throwing starfish in the ocean?"
"The sun is up and the tide is going out.
And if I don't throw them in they'll die."
"But, young man, don't you realize that
there are miles and miles of beach
and starfish all along it.
You can't possibly make a difference!"
The young man listened politely.
Then bent down, picked up another starfish
and threw it into the sea,
past the breaking waves and said-
"It made a difference for that one."
And here is the website that I got this particular copy from-
http://www.ncsr-md.org/Starfish1.htm
But there is no “wise man” to be found in this poem as the “old fool” had no answer for the young man tossing back the poor starfish.
What is there in this story that makes one believe that salvation is found at the bottom of an angry ocean?
Or for that matter on the sandy beach?
45) Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. (Daniel 2:45)
Salvation is not found at the bottom of the sea. Salvation is not found on the shifting sand. Salvation is not found in anything that we men and women may build, not what you build and not what I build. Salvation is cut out of the mountain, breaks into pieces all of man’s devices and becomes a tree that fills the entire earth.
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AMH
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Member # 4895
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posted
Aaron,
I see that you do not really want to choose a topic. Oops, you have chosen a topic so that I do not have to.
Your first posting addressed to AMH in this thread you brought up that it has been a “week” since I posted a promise to another active member and that you are still waiting.
So let us begin to discuss the very important pre/mid/post trib idea of the word “week”.
Did you know that the highly esteemed Dispensationalists dislike that term-“week”?
And that they will go way out of their way to discredit the usage of it?
Just for fun why don’t you ask a serious Dispensationalist what he/she thinks about using the NIV bible to build doctrine. I am confident that they will tell you that this should not be practiced. But they will not tell you exactly why one should not use the NIV bible to build their doctrine. If you try to pin them down they will skirt the issue. The reason that they have for rejecting the NIV bible for solid doctrine is very logical. The NIV bible comes out so strong against some of the Dispenstionalist’s most important doctrines that they think has nothing to do with “end time” studies.
But when it comes to the subject of the word “week” they turn helplessly to the NIV for doctrine.
Anyone who will take the time to study the evolution of dispensational doctrine and is honest will have to come to the conclusion that the Dispensationalist is anti-KJB. That is because the KJB causes them much trouble. And since dispensational doctrine is so “weak”, (as in fragile) they feel compelled to liquidate all enemies if only slowly.
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
Sorry I'm posting so soon after that last long post. But in hurring to get it done I missed a few things that I wanted to touch on from this post of Betty's
Agan I want to aploigize if I offend anyone that is not what I'm trying to do.
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One year and counting
First I honestly believe the teaching that we should not be looking daily for the return of the Lord is contrary to scriptures and is a tool used by the devil. But, I never said that I wanted Jesus to come back for the reason that people would see they were wrong. I do believe that there will be Christians surprised by the return of the Lord. Show me in the Bible where we are not taught to look forward to be blessed hope.
Either you believe God answers prayer or you don’t. I sought God with all my heart asking for God to show me if I was being taught wrong. Instead God reassured me that I am on the right track. Those who teach against the pre-trib rapture are giving people a false hope that they can wait until the anti-Christ comes on the scene and then get saved.
We should accept Jesus now before it is too late. No the rapture is not a salvation issue but we all must be looking forward to the return of our Lord and Savior.
I talk to Christians every day and listen to many preachers on T.V., they all have one thing in common, they are praying for the soon return of Jesus.
betty
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First off is the rapture his return or is it him carrying away his Church. I meaqn if it happens in secret and in a twinkling of an eye can you watch for the rapture. Wouldn't his return be his second comeing? And the things we are watching for are the sighns of this event. Never did I say don't watch for this.
And yes God does answer prayer it's just a matter of if you listen.
Next you mention that teacvhing against the Rapture is false because It gives someone a false hope. Guess what Betty I agree with you. WE should be preaching the Gospel and preaching salvation. The words rapture or even antichrist shouldn't be mentioned. Why you ask. Simple if we as Christians let peole who un saved think that they have time to repent they will wait. The problem with this is what if you are talking to a young man telling him all about Jesus but in doing so you say there will be an event that carries all the Christians away or there will come a man who will do evil things. Well what yoyu have done is givin this young man a choice to wait. Now what happens if tyhisd same young man after talking to you decides to wait on his way home he stops at a store or a gas station . While he is in there the place is rob and he gets killed his delay just sent him to a double death.
That is why when I talk to someone about Jesus I try not to mention anything that could make them think they have more time or that there wil be a sign.
And s far as TV preachers go I won't touch that one right now. You are right though we should pray for his return. So my question then would be is the rature his return?
God bless you Betty andand I pray you see what I'm trying to say.
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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oneyearandcounting
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Ok betty Again I'm gonna aploigise for offending you. Now to the point you keep stressing about looking for the return of the Lord. I myself do just that everyday. And everyday I go to sleep saying "nope not yet maybe tomorrow." When I wake up it's" hmmm not during the night maybe later but even so Lord Jesus come." You see by watching and waiting we as Christians know we are borrowed time along with the rest of the earth. Alot of the signs are there but not all. One thing you keep saying is you are watching for Jesus, thats wonderful but if there is a rapture you wont see him until you stand beside him.
Now earlier I said to anyone please you scripture to back a pre trib rapture. We used 1Cor.15:51-52 I said how can that be pre trib when it mentions the last trump. Only to be told byhisgrace there are many last trumps in the bible it doesn't mean they are all the same. I believe my reply was last means last.HOw can you have more than one last trump. If the trumps were the last trump of different eras I have to believe that God would have made sure to mention that. He isn't the author of confusion after all.
Now you personnally mentioned Rev 3:10. Lets look at that for a minute.
Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Now the question becomes was the church of philidelphia just for that time. If so then that would mean they have already been kept from the hour of temptation. If the Church of philedephia is a church era than again from reading what he says about the Lacodonians that era has passed. so again they they have been kept from the temptatuions of the world. Now the tricky part comes into play with if that church is a bunch of Christians now. The interesting thing is the word keep in that verse according to strongs concordance keep can mean watch over. If the Lord is watching over the church of Philidelphia at this time who can touch them. Now how will God watch over this church during this time his grace. I'm sure you have notice when your walk is going good al of a sudden a temptation is thrown in your path. Well the church of Philidelphia they kept Gods word and there for when the time comes for them to be tempted just like the rest of the world Gods grace prevents this. Because of thier knowledge of the word.
NOw some people like to use Matt.37:42
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But the problem with using those verses as a pre trib. rapture verse is these verses in matthew happen first Matt. 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
Then we have the words of Christ himself telling us that no sign will be given except the sign of Jonah three days in the belly of a fish. Now I could be wtrong but wouldn't a billion or more people just disappearing be a big sign? You know why there isn't a sign given? You must believe on faith and then trust in his the Lords grace to save you.
The last thing I have is the fact that there isn't any mention of a pre trib rapture in the Old Testiment anywhere. Everything else you can find there except a pre trib rapture. In fact When I read Tim Lahayhe "Unveiling Revelation", he doesn't list any verses in the Old Testament.
The closet thing we have is the stories of Enoch and Elijha (sp).
But maybe I'm being selfish, I mean after all My God came to this earth and died for me. And here I am saying don't take me alive I want to die for you. A famous person is qouted as saying, " Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. " I think you know who said this.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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Aaron
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Even if it did, which it doesn't. that teaching gives lie to the fact that NO ONE KNOWS the HOUR that Christ will return, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. It will be like the days of Noah, when the unrighteous will be totally unprepared when Christ returns to claim His Kingdom
I must admit I have not studied the time line of the end-times. Some day I'll get to it.
I'd like to address these scriptures:
quote:
Matt. 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
Mark 13:32 "32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
It is interesting that when we quote this truism we quote the Matthew version: "No one knows the hour, not any man or even the angels." This is a much safer version than the Mark version because the Mark version includes "the Son" among the "unknowing".
I think including the Son does not sit well with us...to say "Jesus does not know of His own return" seem somehow wrong.
Well, I think it is wrong.
1) The word "knows" is a present-tense knowing. "Today, no one knows." But what about tomorrow? Today no one knows the outcome of the Super bowl. When it is over everyone will know.
So, is there a "knowing event" for the hour of Jesus' return. I think so.
2) Paul writes in 1 Thessalonians 5 "But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape."
and then He goes on to say, "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness."
So, the sons of light, the Christians, are not in darkness and therefore the "day" will not overtake them as a thief in the night. We will be able to see the day approaching. (I think this forum is a testimony to the truth of that).
3) Let's consider what the son knows now. We know that the timing of the "day" was solely the Father's at one time...that is: only He had the information. "No one *presently* knows but the Father" so, if the Son now knows (this is where I am going) then when was it given to him?
Remember Matthew and Mark record (together) "no one knows; not man, the angels, or the Son".
Now, here is where the information is shared:
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw."
Notice
a) It was God's Revelation 1st.
b) It was given to the Son.
b) The Son gave it to an angel.
c) It was given to a man, John.
Mark 13:32 reads "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
No one knows not: man > angels > Son > Only Father
Revelation 1:1 reverses the order.
Given from Father > Son > angel > man (John).
So, now (presently) the Son and the angels and man know the day. For "We are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."
Furthermore:
John 16: "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
See, there it is: "All things that the Father has are mine (even the knowledge of the Day) and I will declare them to you."
We need only have ears to hear and eyes to see.
We have many great watchmen on this board. Watch on! For the Lord approaches!
Bless you,
Aaron
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
Walt I can't agree with you more. But for some reason the Lord has put the whole pretrib rature theory on my heart. I also do notbelong to a rature camp per say, but I also see what the word is showing me.
God bless
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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wparr
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posted
WhiteEagle
That's why is sooo dislike the left behind books/movies, people use them to interpet the Bible.
As I've said, I'm not in ANY of the trib camps, I'm just looking to The Blessed Hope of Jesus' coming.
The rapture isn't clear in scripture, God didn't give us a very clear picture of future times, so why spend so much time and energy trying to make it clear.
Maybe if we spent more time and energy on things like:
THE GREAT COMMISION
Matthew 28:19-20
(19) "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
(20) teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
The purpose of Revelation is to reveal Jesus, we read that book of The Bible to LEARN MORE ABOUT JESUS.
Guess what I get out of it folks
JESUS WINS ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif) ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif) ![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
He fights a mighty battle and satan loses ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
Jesus is Holy
God WILL NOT be mocked
His wrath WILL be poured out
His justice WILL prevail
He will destroy this sin filled planet and make a NEW Heaven and earth.
And actually I'm getting ready tu study The Book of Revelation
Why?
Because this past Sunday, as I was walking thru the store at the truck stop I serve at (I volunteer as a truck stop chaplain) a couple of people stoped me and said:
"There's the chaplain, lets ask him. Hey chaplain we have some questions got a minute?"
They then started asking me questions about Israel, the land being given away, the hurricanes, all how they pertain to the end times.
I need to be better prepared to answer questions in this area, because more and more people will start asking questions.
This opens the door for me to give them Jesus. ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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WhiteEagle
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posted
I just want to address another problem I see. this is the teaching of a "Seven year Tribulation"
Goodness knows all Baptists and other denominational preachers hold onto this as doctrine, such as Jack Van Impe, Tim Lahaye, etc.
If one studies the Bible alone without the mindset imposed by such as Lahaye and Van Impe, one will hopefully be able to see that NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY THAT THERE WILL BE A SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION.
Even if it did, which it doesn't. that teaching gives lie to the fact that NO ONE KNOWS the HOUR that Christ will return, not even the angels in heaven, only the Father. It will be like the days of Noah, when the unrighteous will be totally unprepared when Christ returns to claim His Kingdom
I think many people get Christ's return mixed up with no one knowing the hour of the Rapture, but they are separate events, while no one knows when the Rapture will occur either, the same holds true as to when Christ will Return to Claim his Kingdom.
So if you hold onto a 7 year trib, you are implicitly saying you KNOW when Christ will return.
Reasons not to buy into a 7 year tribulation:
Matthew 24:21-22 "For then, shall be a great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
EXCEPT THOSE DAYS BE SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for THE ELECT'S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED."
The great Tribulation could be 2 years or 20 yers we do not know, but it will be shortened for the elect's sake. Who are the elect? The Church!
Daniel 9:24 Here is the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years for the Jewish people. What are the 70 weeks for?
verse 24: "To finish the transgression"
"to make an end of sins"
"to make reconciliation for iniquity"
"to bring in everlasting righteousness"
"to seal up the vision and the prophecy"
"to anoint the Most Holy."
It's important to realize the purpose of God for the 70 weeks, to aid our understanding.
I can show scripture to defend my view that 69 weeks have been fulfilled already, but since I know that most others, even Lahaye will agree with that, I'll leave it for now, and you can read Daniel 9:25 and see that is true. It was fulfilled prior to Christ's birth and ministry.
Most scholars agree with this bit of Bible.
On to the 70th week. I see that half of it has been fulfilled by Christ's 3 1/2 year ministry, death and resurection. Read Daniel 9:25-26:
The building of the Temple in Jerusalem to the time of the Messiah the Prince shall be 7 weeks plus 62 weeks. So that gives us the 69 weeks which preceeds Christ's birth.
It says in verse 26 after the 62 weeks, which is after the first 7 weeks or total of 69 weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself."
this prophecies of Christ's death on the Cross.
verse 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years) and in the midst of the week shall he cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.
When Christ died on the cross He caused the sacrifices of the temple to be of non effect to God. The veil was torn and the Holy of Holies opened up to all who believe in Christ, and the former Jewish sacrifices are desolate to God. In fact to do them NOW would be an Abomination that causes desolation.
I believe that Christ's 3 1/2 year ministry is the first part of the 70th week. The antichrist is only given 3 1/2 years and this is during the time that the 144,000 Jews are sealed by God in Revelation chapt 7. In Daniel 12:7b the angel answers Daniel's question about how long will the evil one reign and do these evil things. " he is told for a time, times and half which is considered to be the 3 1/2 years.
This is confirmed in Revelation 12:14
The woman who gave birth to the manchild, is the Jewish nation who brought forth Christ the Messiah and King, and God protects Isreal for a time, times and half a time. 3 1/2 years.
Now if there were a 7 year tribulation wouldn't it make sense that God would have protected the woman Israel for a week of years and not just 3 1/2 years?
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Read Revelations Chapter 6 and you will see the plaques come from God himself and not the anti-Christ. Read Chapter 8 and you will see that the wrath does indeed come from God.
Betty, Rev chapter 6 is about the 7 seals. The 7 seals are from the scroll mentioned in chapter 5, that no one else was worthy enought to break the seals except Christ. Rev. 6:1 "I saw the Lamb open one of the seals..."etc and etc. to the 6th seal in verse 12. "there was a great earthquake and the sun became black as sackcloth and the moon became as blood..." With this seal being opened then the Wrath of God commences (see Rev 6:17) For the great Day of His wrath has come, and who shall be able to stand."
In Rev 19:10b "...that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophesy."
I'm highlighting the prophecy, because the opening of the seals by the Lamb of God is of course Christ and he is worthy to reveal prophecy, or the events that will unfold at the end of days. The Seals are prophetic events to occur, and even though Jesus is revealing them, He is not the reason that they happen, it is due to man's own SIN, that these particular events occur. Jesus is just revealing them to us through John.
The 6th seal announced the start of the Wrath of God. Before that in the 5th seal we see the saints who were slain for the word of God under the altar. They are waiting for the Raptured one to join them and for the Wrath of God to come.
In Rev chapter 7 the sixth seal brings darkness and earthquakes and a earthly events of great magnitude, that terrify even the rulers of this world. It shows the angels sealing the Jewish 144,000, and it shows the multitude of saints in heaven These in the white robes are : Rev 7:14 "These are they which came out of the Great tribulation, and washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb."
In chapter 8 the 7th seal is opened, and this is after the Great Tribulation and after the rapture as we already saw the saints in heaven. The 7th seal brings Silence in heaven for one half hour. In other words it's a Great Hush of awe just before the plagues and Wrath of God hits the world. The Trumpets and Vial are called JUDGEMENTS BY THE BIBLE. The seals are not judgements, but prophecies.
Can you see the difference?
Yes, we will always have trials and problems but the tribulation is from God to the anti-Christ and his followers. That is why God will remove the Church before the triublation because, God's wrath is not for his children.
betty [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by whitesands777:
Excellent Eagle....Many have confused God's wrath with the word tribulation....
But reading the scripture carefully reveals that the great tribulation is carried out by the antichrist .
The wrath of God is poured out against those that have join sides with the antichrist...
It is true, tht the wrath of God is not poured out on the saints. But we were told that we would have tribulation.
Thank you for also understanding that the church will go through tribulation, EVEN in America. So many scriptures do teach us how to battle, the daily battle is in preparation for the greater battle of us as God's army on white horse on the hill with the SON rising in the East as our light as we defeat the enemy with Christ as our King.
The KING IS COMING!
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
One year and counting
First I honestly believe the teaching that we should not be looking daily for the return of the Lord is contrary to scriptures and is a tool used by the devil. But, I never said that I wanted Jesus to come back for the reason that people would see they were wrong. I do believe that there will be Christians surprised by the return of the Lord. Show me in the Bible where we are not taught to look forward to be blessed hope.
Either you believe God answers prayer or you don’t. I sought God with all my heart asking for God to show me if I was being taught wrong. Instead God reassured me that I am on the right track. Those who teach against the pre-trib rapture are giving people a false hope that they can wait until the anti-Christ comes on the scene and then get saved.
We should accept Jesus now before it is too late. No the rapture is not a salvation issue but we all must be looking forward to the return of our Lord and Savior.
I talk to Christians every day and listen to many preachers on T.V., they all have one thing in common, they are praying for the soon return of Jesus.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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wparr
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posted
quote:
Again the Rapture isn't a salvation issue for a Christian but it is for the unsaved.
AMEN AMEN AMEN
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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oneyearandcounting
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posted
First off I want to say I'm sorry. I believe I am the one that started this thread going the way it is going and believe it or not I did it on purpose.
Next, Walt I truely enjoy your posts. I agree with what you are saying and when I posted the way I did to discuss the Rapture it was becuase I wanted to see what Pre tribulation people believe and what scripture they use. Now The reason I went the road I took is because a Christian I work with said you have to believe in the Rapture pre tribulation or you do not have salvation.This I believe is false. And the scripture that has been used shows that exact thing.
Now Betty believe it or not I like you and I enjoy your posts.But in one of your posts you accused AMH of basically working for Satan. This is wrong. And in another post you mentioned how you couldn't wait for the rapture just so the people who didn't know the word would see you were right. Betty just so you know I took offence to that.
I am going to give you a quick testimony ok so everyone bare with me. And you'll see why I took offence I think. I use to be an athiest. My wife and her whole family 14 brothers and sisters were all Christians. We got marrried much to the disappointment of her family. We have been married for almost thirteen years. The first eleven though were terrible.
Now as an athiest I use to talk major garbage about Christians and mostley about Christ himself. Being the kind of guy who likes to debate I would debate a christian all day long on wheather Christ was the answer to the worlds problems. The shocking thing is I would win these debates I seriosly got supposed Christians to admit I could be right. Well one day three years or so ago we though my wife was pregnant and I did something that saved my life. Well I new that financially we couldn't afford a another baby it would have been # 4 and the realionship couldn't survive another child. So I did something that every Athiest does whether they admit it or not. I asked God to help me under the condition you make her not pregnant and I'll look into you. Long story short she ends up not pregnant. What did I d though I ignored my end of the deal.
Well me an my wife still had a bumpy road for awhile and one day I was working and A coworker and I got into a debate about Christianity, here was the catch he wasa arguing against it, so I had to argue for it. How do you argue for something you know nothing about and don't believe in? Why you study of course. What harm would it do I didn't believe in God infact I was known to say that the Bible was a huge work of ficton, what harm could there be in reading it?
I bet you can guess what happened huh. Well needless to say I discovered God. But I made another deal with him as I did. And I know it's the deal that he wants all of us to make. I told him Lord I give you my life, but I want you to show me your truth not a man. And that ment that I wouldn't set foot into a church until I had read his whole word from beginning to end. (and yes I started in in the beginning.)
So anyway I get done reading the whole Bible and I start talking to my wife and my inlaws alittle bit going over the stuff that the Lord has shown me.
Well one day I'm sitting home alone at night waiting for my wife to come home so we could read the Bible. And I decide to turn on TBN. It was the worst thing I think I could have done I seriously got a sick feeling in my stomach listining to most of the preachers going on. Then A guy mentions this thing called the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Well I looked up the verses the guy was using and it didn't sit well in my gut.( which now I realize it did't sit well with the new spirit inside me.)
I saw something right away and it was confirmed a few days later when I talked to some friends of mine. This is what my friends said to me " I know that there is a God and I know that Jesus was him and when the rapture happens thats when I'll repent and serve him till then I'll live life the way I want." The more of my friends who I talked to who said they believed in God the more that said the same thing. Now when I heard the paster on TBN say his little thing about the rapture I said " Wow what a trick by Satan that could be."
Now I have been here for alittle while on this boards and listining to what you all have said about certain topics. I have seen some of you mention how your pasters or other teachers you respect have taught you to believe the way you do. And when I hear these things I think to my self and to the Lord because he is always with me "Lord Just because six pasters say one thing and a person believes it to be true is it? He always answers me the same "No"
An example of it would be any religion that isn't truth. Millions of Catholics believe that they are the true church of Christ.They believe this because a bunch of men called Popes said so but are they right. Now the point I am trying to make is simple this.If There is no such thing as a pretribulation rapture which I am sorry scripture is showing me there isn't so I have to stand my ground. If there is no such thing than we are allowing millions of people who believe to gamble with the souls because they have heard from Christians that there is going to be one.
Now if anyone wants to show me the verses that make you believe thre is one feel free. But please do not get angry if I may not agree. Again the Rapture isn't a salvation issue for a Christian but it is for the unsaved.
God bless you all.
greg
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Acts9:18 And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he received his sight; and he arose and was baptized.
Posts: 183 | From: winder Ga | Registered: Mar 2005
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wparr
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posted
Wouldn't it be ALOT more productive if we would focus our attention on HOW to apply scipture to our daily lives
Than to fret about what the unknow future is going to be like.
Pre-trib, mid trib, post-trib doesn't affect our present daily walk and works
When we stand before God, He isn't going to hold us accountable on which (if any) of these camps we stand in.
He's going to be more concerned on what we DID with Jesus
And what we LET Jesus do in us and thru us
That's what matters most
Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
1 Timothy 4:7-11
(7) But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;
(8) for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.
(9) It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
(10) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
(11) Prescribe and teach these things.
2nd Timothy 2:14-18
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
Titus 2:11-13
(11) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
(12) instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
(13) looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
Aaron, what is on your mind? What are you asking of me exactly? What exactly is your request?
Topics: Tribulation and rapture.
Would you please expound on these issues?
Aaron
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
AMH,
Why does it bother you so much that people believe in the pre-trib rapture? No one says that you have to believe in it. I am honestly curious, how my belief which fills my heart with such joy can be such a thorn to you.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gramajo320
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posted
AMH,
Although being thoughtful of others feelings is very important it's not just a matter of feelings. It is also a matter of doing
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Being respectful, courteous, and kind is a good way to proceed but just remember each person is entitled to their beliefs. If anyone disagrees with you that is their perogative to do so.
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Gramajo320
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AMH
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posted
Granmajo320 and Aaron,
It looks like we three are all talking at the same time.
Granmajo320, I will try to be more attentive to the feelings of others as I know that feelings are very important.
Aaron, what is on your mind? What are you asking of me exactly? The post of mine that you bring up was not for you. The one it was directed to lost interest therefore the posting’s promise went unfulfilled. What exactly is your request? If you are wanting me to present a craftily/intricate belief system then you are going to be as unhappy as HisGrace was. Shall I pick the topic?
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Gramajo320
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posted
AMH,
Some of the things you say in your postings come across as being disrespectful and it's not necessary to be that way. Please remember others are entitled to their beliefs and do not have to be in agreement with you in order for you to give them the respect they deserve.
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Gramajo320
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
You people just do not want to get to the issues. You dream that someone is disrespectful because they can disagree intelligently. I will tell you what. Pick any pre/mid/post tribulation topic to discuss. And we will discuss it, that is if you can stick around.
For the record I have neither agreed with or disagreed with anyone on any flavor of "trib".
Instead of "picking something" and standing against it I'd much rather read what you stand for in relation to the tribulation(s).
Aaron
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AMH
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posted
You people just do not want to get to the issues. You dream that someone is disrespectful because they can disagree intelligently. I will tell you what. Pick any pre/mid/post tribulation topic to discuss. And we will discuss it, that is if you can stick around.
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
OK, I will start with the scripture. But you are not going to like that either. Sorry.
AMH
A week ago you typed this yet I cannot find a post where you shared scripture. Like it or not I'd still like to have it.
Aaron
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Gramajo320
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posted
AMH,
Please do not be disrepectful in your postings. It's uncalled for.
I completely agree with Texas Grandma about the pretrib and rapture.
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Gramajo320
Posts: 2385 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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AMH
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posted
In response to posting dated 9-26-05 11:31 AM
TexasGrandma,
Originally belief systems were used to teach people who could not read, (art, creeds etc). Now that the West has overcome its reading disability the belief systems are used instead for shutting down the mind. When you have a belief system you do not have to think. This comes in handy when a person is lazy.
I can see how and why a person would say such things as you do in your love post. But it is not I that sits in an ivory tower. Besides my “attitude” or shall we say “altitude” what have I said that you can refute?
Every one of the tribber points can be refuted easily by scripture, but instead we get personal. The reason why it is so easy to refute such doctrine is because its foundation is sand. I have heard that there is a lot of sand in Texas.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
Read Revelations Chapter 6 and you will see the plaques come from God himself and not the anti-Christ. Read Chapter 8 and you will see that the wrath does indeed come from God.
Yes, we will always have trials and problems but the tribulation is from God to the anti-Christ and his followers. That is why God will remove the Church before the triublation because, God's wrath is not for his children.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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whitesands777
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
More Bible instructions on tribulations;
Matt 13:21 "Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the world he immediately stumbles."
Matt 24:21-22 "For at that time there will be a great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again. Unless those days were limited no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the Elect."
John 16:33 " I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. You will have suffering (tribulations)in this world. Be courageous! I have conquered the world."
Act 14:22 "Strengthening the hearts of the disciples by encouraging them to continue in the faith, and by telling them; It is necessary to pass through many troubles(tribulations) on our way into the Kingdom of God."
Romans 5:3 "And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction(tribulation) produces endurance."
Romans 8:18 " For I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us."
Romans 8:35 " Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can affliction(tribulation), or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger of sword?"
Romans 12:12 "Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation; be persistant in prayer."
1 Thess 3:4 "In fact when we were with you, we told you previously that we were going to suffer persecution, and as you know it happened."
2 Thess 1:4 "Therefore we boast about you among God's churches-about your endurance and faith in all the persecutions(tribulaions) and afflictions you endure."
Sounds like most of the New Testament is how to endure tribulations.
We are not appointed to Wrath, and I believe you are seeing the Tribulation as part of the Wrath of God and IT IS NOT the wrath of God time.
Excellent Eagle....Many have confused God's wrath with the word tribulation....
But reading the scripture carefully reveals that the great tribulation is carried out by the antichrist .
The wrath of God is poured out against those that have join sides with the antichrist...
It is true, tht the wrath of God is not poured out on the saints. But we were told that we would have tribulation.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
AMH
Contrary to your own belief, you are not God.
You are not above us. You sit in your tower of arrogance and think you are better than the rest of us. But, when the rapture comes, you can explain to God how you ignored His teaching through out the Bible about the rapture.
I do not speak from anger. I feel only peace in my heart that God loves His Church and is coming soon for us. He teaches the Church to await His return with joy in their heart.
The devil uses someone like you to try to take away the joy and peace but when we reach out to God for assurance, He reminds us to keep our eyes on Him and not the likes of you, who would steal the joy and peace right out of our hearts.
Remember the devil comes to steal and destroy and sometimes he uses williing Christians to do that job for him.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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AMH
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posted
It is psychology 101.
People do not remember what a speaker says so much as they remember how a speaker makes them feel.
Most professional preachers are schooled in this.
The reason why they are schooled in this is so that they can continue receiving pay checks.
They build a system that people like then they support that system.
This thread is a good example of how the followers of a system react to the dynamics of such a system.
It does not matter that a man like Nietzsche was a self proclaimed anti-Christ; they can still use what he said. It works for many systems, if not all. Just count the number of Christians who were engulfed by Nietzsche’s direct descendents.
wparr asks me who am I addressing. Anyone who mindlessly follows. That is the key ingredient.
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Hello HisGrace. In God’s eyes, a thousand years is as one day and one day as a thousand years.
Yes, it certainly seems that way sometimes  
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Bloodbought
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posted
Hello HisGrace. In God’s eyes, a thousand years is as one day and one day as a thousand years.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
I heard a preacher confirm my belief by saying that the resurrection and the second coming of Christ all takes place in an hour.
The good and the evil are both resurrected in the same hour on the last day.God bless.
Welcome back Bloodbought - nice to see again.
Yes, there is a resurrection at the same time as the second coming of Jesus, but those are the ones who were martyred during the tribulation. This is the first resurrection. The second resurrection is of the evil ones after the thousand years, in order to face judgment day.
Rev. 20: 4-6 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
"The rest of the dead" obviously are the unrighteous.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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There is a 7 year period from the moment of the rapture until the Second Coming when Jesus will come back on a white horse and the Church behind Him, also on white horses. The wicked dead will not be resurrected until after the tribulation.
Christians who have passed away will be resurrected at the moment of the rapture.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bloodbought
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posted
I heard a preacher confirm my belief by saying that the resurrection and the second coming of Christ all takes place in an hour. Sometime within that hour, as quick as you twinkle your eye the dead in Christ will rise and we that are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. The wicked are resurrected in the same hour.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The good and the evil are both resurrected in the same hour on the last day.
God bless.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
I was watching a preacher on TV and when he went off I started lunch, and left the TV on. The next preacher was preaching on why the pre-trib belief is Biblically sound. I knew immediately that God was reaffirming my belief. I am grateful that God cares enough about me to send me a sign that I do not have to fear the tribulation because He is coming for the Church, first.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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TEXASGRANDMA
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posted
White Eagle,
I did not shut my ears to hearing the truth. I spent two weeks in prayer, seeking the truth. I sought God with all my heart and He gave me peace that the pre-trib rapture is truth. Too many are not looking for the return of our Lord and Savior. The Bible says Jesus is coming for those who are looking for His return. I am praying every day for His return.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brother Brady
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posted
As I read many of the comments in this thread, several things occured to me.
1) It is a good thing to edify one another in the word. 2) God gives understanding of scripture through his Spirit of Truth. What may apply to me, may apply to another person in a different way. 3) God's word should not cause division, even in debate. If it does, something is amiss. 4) satan knows the scriptures better than any of us.
I've found that a good ground rule for Christian debate is to apply my understanding or interpretation of scripture to how it applys to me and my own life personally, without "Lording" it over others as absolute truth. Truth must be shared with love, patience and kindness, seeking to uplift one another, not tear down. In some cases, we must stand for the truth fervently as Jesus did against the Pharisees and Saducees, but unless you are called to do so in this manner, it is best to avoid speaking with that type of authority.
Here is how this debate effects me. Personally, I could care less if the rapture comes before or after the tribulation. Jesus says we can not know the day or the hour. I might walk out the door today and be killed, in which case, eternity for me will come instaneously. Meanwhile, what is my purpose? To love God and do as he commands, that is, to fulfill the great comission, to lead others to Christ. That is my only concern, anything beyond that does nothing to edify the body.
Personally, I would forego the rapture in order to stay behind to help those who remain if God wanted me to, and if in fact that will be the order of things.
RB
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ACTS Christian Chat
ACTS Christian Forum
Posts: 5 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Mar 2005
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wparr
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posted
AMH
Who are you addressing in your last post
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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AMH
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posted
Remember the guy that produced the recent movie “The Passion of the Christ”? Have you ever read his testimony? He is a devout Roman Catholic. Do you know why he is a Roman Catholic? Because another devout Roman Catholic was nice to him. This is his reasoning. And this is your reasoning. You believe the way that you do because some “nice” guy “taught” you to. You have no other reason then this, (unless you are making a living “teaching” Daniel 70th week tribulation theory).
You do not like what I say so you look for reasons not to pay attention. AMH is not a nice guy therefore what he says is not important.
You want your ears tickled. More than this you demand your ears be tickled.
Example-
John Bunyan was a preacher who was thrown in prison because he would not parrot official doctrine. They would not let John Bunyan buy or sell.
The system is everything.
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AMH
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“Just will” is Nietzsche’s advice, it does not matter what you will or why.
Shall we apply this anti-Christ philosopher?
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wparr
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posted
I had a wonderful Pastor when I was living in Houston, who could scripturally argue for pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib.
What I learned is to just wait for the coming of Jesus, and to have no preformed concepts what the details of the future will be.
Except that Jesus is coming back for His Bride, satan is going to be cast into hell, and in the mean time things are going to get really really bad.
That was what one of the problems was with the Jews during Jesus walk on earth: they had a predetermined concept of The Messiah, and Jesus didn't fit it.
I don't want to have the same type of problem.
I won’t determine my fellowship on what a Christian perceives the end times to be like, but rather on how they are living In Christ, and For Christ TODAY.
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WhiteEagle
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posted
More Bible instructions on tribulations;
Matt 13:21 "Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the world he immediately stumbles."
Matt 24:21-22 "For at that time there will be a great tribulation, the kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again. Unless those days were limited no one would survive. But those days will be limited because of the Elect."
John 16:33 " I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. You will have suffering (tribulations)in this world. Be courageous! I have conquered the world."
Act 14:22 "Strengthening the hearts of the disciples by encouraging them to continue in the faith, and by telling them; It is necessary to pass through many troubles(tribulations) on our way into the Kingdom of God."
Romans 5:3 "And not only that, but we also rejoice in our afflictions, because we know that affliction(tribulation) produces endurance."
Romans 8:18 " For I consider the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is going to be revealed to us."
Romans 8:35 " Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can affliction(tribulation), or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger of sword?"
Romans 12:12 "Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation; be persistant in prayer."
1 Thess 3:4 "In fact when we were with you, we told you previously that we were going to suffer persecution, and as you know it happened."
2 Thess 1:4 "Therefore we boast about you among God's churches-about your endurance and faith in all the persecutions(tribulaions) and afflictions you endure."
Sounds like most of the New Testament is how to endure tribulations.
We are not appointed to Wrath, and I believe you are seeing the Tribulation as part of the Wrath of God and IT IS NOT the wrath of God time.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Thank you cefaison,
..., God gave me a wonderful peace that the pre-trib belief is a sound Biblical belief. I realize that this belief is not essential to being saved, but one a person starts to shred our beliefs in God's Word, little by little it opens the door to doubt in all of our faith. I know that the Bible tells the Christian to be watching for Jesus for His Church. I have never found one place in the Bible that teaches a Christan how to prepare for the tribulation. I believe that is because we will not be here.
Like it was brought out in my Sunday School class on Prophecy, A groom does not pour out his wrath on his bride. God's wrath is for those who have rejected His Son, and not for the Church.
betty
Dear Betty,
You hold on so tight to this belief about Pre-trib, and while I agree with you totally that whatever one's belief about how end times will play out is not a Salvation issue, I fear that when one takes such an uncompromising view about end times, one can miss out on what God is really doing, because one has shut up their mind to ANY other possibilties.
You write that the Bible Never instructs us how to go through tribulation, and with that I must strongly disagree with you.
Ephesians 6:10-18
James 1:2-26
1 Peter 3-9
1 Peter 4:7-8,12-16
1 John 15-23
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
Thank you cefaison,
I too felt that AMH was looking down own me. I realize that I am probably not as smart as him, but I have put my trust in God and sought out respected and Bible based Preachers to learn from. A couple years ago on this board another person made me totally doubt myself and my beliefs. I spent several weeks in the Bible and in prayer seeking for God to show me the truth. When it was over, God gave me a wonderful peace that the pre-trib belief is a sound Biblical belief. I realize that this belief is not essential to being saved, but one a person starts to shred our beliefs in God's Word, little by little it opens the door to doubt in all of our faith. I know that the Bible tells the Christian to be watching for Jesus for His Church. I have never found one place in the Bible that teaches a Christan how to prepare for the tribulation. I believe that is because we will not be here.
Like it was brought out in my Sunday School class on Prophecy, A groom does not pour out his wrath on his bride. God's wrath is for those who have rejected His Son, and not for the Church.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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oneofgods
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posted
Thank you Cefaison. That is the message I was trying to get across, I guess I just couldn't come up with the right words.
Posts: 17 | From: Kansas City | Registered: Sep 2005
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cefaison
Advanced Member
Member # 4955
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posted
I just wanted to let everyone know that my post mentioning the contempt was only specifically about AMH's posts, no one else's. I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture wholeheartedly, and in an earlier post, I stated that as Christians we should be able to agree to disagree about certain points that aren't salvation related. I respect those who have different beliefs about the end times, even though I may not agree with them. However, AMH comes off as condescending and sarcastic and it seems as if he looks down with contempt on those of us who do not agree with him. He makes snide little comments that are meant to offend or hurt. That is all I was talking about. I don't agree that that is the way to have a "lively little debate". In debating a topic, you don't throw out insults about someone or their church or whatever. That is what comes across as contemptuous. I apoligize if I offended anyone else or made anyone else think I was speaking about them. Stating one's beliefs with scriptural back up is one thing, which I believe everyone else on here is doing.
In Christ,
Christie
Posts: 23 | From: Orlando, Florida | Registered: Aug 2005
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