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Author
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Topic: Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation!
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
![[type]](graemlins/type.gif) quote:
Since when is hades outer darkness?
Separation from Him is darkness. You are supposed to get the effect that outer darkness is way out there.
People see hell a alive with licks of red and yellow flame, lighting the place up. Is it? As far as I can tell, the real burning that people will experience is of the lusts which they lived in, which they will not be able to fulfill. Being unable to be satisfied, they will be in torment, eternally. For they rejected their fulfillment, who HE is. He satisfies. He created, and He fulfills. He knows exactly what is the very best for each and every one. And He is the answer to it.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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No Eden! The logic for some is that the person never was saved. Of course we don't know; but what is interesting about that is that, if we don't know that he was saved, then we surely don't either know that he wasn't. But it is easier for some to assume that he wasn't. ??? It is what works for them. Of course, that view fits well with osas, so it reinforces the concept to them making it harder to pry them from their belief. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
What happened to Keifer? I though the post was still coming to the top, which shows activity.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Ok, I guess my previous post was not short enough.
Let me try this. A person sincerely believes in Jesus for 5 years and then goes to University and stops believing this "Jesus nonsense" and never again believes it, and dies.
OSAS, is this person saved because he believed for 5 years?
thanks, eden
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Is this the longest running post yet? (Besides "If you are new here, please read.")
We don't have "If you are new here, please read." anymore. I, for one, will miss Keifer.
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Carol Swenson
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Galatians 5:22 - 23 (NLT)
22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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ANM
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Just how much more serious can "Weeping and gnashing of teeth be?" I don't think, you have even considered it. It is as serious as it gets!!! This is what our Lord is trying to convey by the parable! This is how bad it is that people will not consider. If you don't get this, you don't understand the gravity of the whole episode. It is bad serious!! The people who are weeping and gnashing teeth, are they who are foaming at the mouth in anger towards God, because 'they' had it wrong! They ended up in Hades, hence the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Gnnnnnashing! It is bitter. It is even hard for me to consider, it hurts so much.
And Carol, I am not the least bit jealous, or my whole message is in vain. The commentary is wrong!
Since when is hades outer darkness?
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whats up?
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Michael, dear one,
What do you find so wrong about obeying the leading of the Holy Spirit?
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Michael Harrison
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posted
This is not a game. This is as serious as life gets. There is an understanding. Then there is an understanding that is of His Spirit. Let me bend down to kiss your feet, and pray that He reveals this to you! At least I will have tried.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Is this the longest running post yet? (Besides "If you are new here, please read.")
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
God is Love! However, if you look at scripture, God is judgment. Don't cast out the baby with the bathwater. Don't see the love without the judgment. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is worse than a horror movie. It is the worst that can happen to someone.
Consider this:
Luk 16:9 "And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."
Here it says to make friends with sin, that you may have something to receive you in everlasting habitations. As a fact of the matter, this is a better way than to appear righteous, and still end up in hell. The worst comes to those who appear righteous, not those who simply sin.
I stand coldly, for the sake of any who will consider! And what i said above:
I stand before Him. I stand on what I said! I hope the best for the writer of the commentary. Like I said, the parable starts with, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." The Kingdom of heaven is represented by what was given to these three. The Kingdom of Heaven is represented by what became of what was given them. This can be paired with the parable of the mustard seed that grew into a tree in which the fowl of the air could nest in. It started with a seed no bigger than a mustard seed, and grew to what was a tree. That is the increase. It is represented by an increase in the Kingdom of Heaven in the believer!!! It has nothing whatsoever to do with what one manages, outside of what the seed of faith (which is the heart) becomes, which is the tree representing the Kingdom of Heaven in the believer, which grows from the germinated seed, which is the heart of the believer (who has believed by faith, which is the germination).
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Just how much more serious can "Weeping and gnashing of teeth be?" I don't think, you have even considered it. It is as serious as it gets!!! This is what our Lord is trying to convey by the parable! This is how bad it is that people will not consider. If you don't get this, you don't understand the gravity of the whole episode. It is bad serious!! The people who are weeping and gnashing teeth, are they who are foaming at the mouth in anger towards God, because 'they' had it wrong! They ended up in Hades, hence the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Gnnnnnashing! It is bitter. It is even hard for me to consider, it hurts so much.
And Carol, I am not the least bit jealous, or my whole message is in vain. The commentary is wrong!
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ANM
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
ANM:
quote:
Mike, if the vine is holy and it is, the branches are holy as well, and we be the branches. The branches that are cut off are the ones below the original grafted spot or branches that have reverted back to the root stalk which would be....THE LAW.
This is a historical perspective, not a spiritual one. It is no doubt true as stated.
~
|Concerning the parable of the talents, here is how it opens, with this sentence:
Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
|Immediately it says that "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." and it goes on to tell the story of the three 'stewards' of the Kingdom. Welp! Keeping in mind that the parable represents the Kingdom of Heaven, let's look at what happened to that poor guy who brought no increase. At the end of the parable the poor guy is told:
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
|That surely does sound like he is 'losing' his reward.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
|But woe and begone, what saith it next?
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
|Is this the picture of someone losing their reward??? No, I tell you. He lost more than that. So it stands solidly, and unmistakably, that the parable is about salvation. (Who will read the word the way it is written?) For who would be cast into outer darkness by a 'loving' God just for losing money??? Osasers would do well to consider this lest they lead someone astray.
Mike perhaps outer darkness is not the lake of fire, it does not sound like it too me. I believe it may be a place of chastening, Ive been in that outer darkness, there is weeping and knashing of teeth there, God sends leaness to our soul so we will repent,many people have issues because of their past circumstances that haven't been healed yet, to condemn them to hell is certainly not the loving character of God I am familiar with.He will cleanse them with fire, he will send adversity the worst of which is being turned over to the tormentors because of unforgiveness, Ive been there too, at no time was I ever seperated from my father, in fact at times he was so close and had such a loving encouraging heart wrenching love for me despite my woundedness and disobedience,it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentence, his love is unfathomable, we are not appointed to wrath, we have not chosen him he choose us in Christ before the foundation of the world and believe me....Those he foreknew...he definately predestined, and those he predestined he also called, and you can be sure he justified , sanctified and glorified each and every one losing none of them, he is a good shepard who is in absolute control of his sheep. When the wolf comes the shepard raises a standard against such attacks, the battle is not ours but his,and he wins everyone, he is the author and finisher of our faith, we don't break the covenent, we are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Ghost. If you truley understood the covenent you'd be on your face repenting of heresy of which you speak. It sounds like Christ died in vain, what you are saying is we must believe and also keep the law and then we go to heaven. And the ones who have faith and work not will definately suffer loss, and they will definately not recieve or recognise their inheritance in christ, they will be saved as ones passing through the flames, their lives will be full of trials and chastening, its the truth and cannot be disputed.
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whats up?
Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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Michael Harrison
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The commentary is...
You have the very word. The commentary is....
I stand before Him. I stand on what I said! I hope the best for the writer of the commentary. Like I said, the parable starts with, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." The Kingdom of heaven is represented by what was given to these three. The Kingdom of Heaven is represented by what became of what was given them. This can be paired with the parable of the mustard seed that grew into a tree in which the fowl of the air could nest in. It started with a seed no bigger than a mustard seed, and grew to what was a tree. That is the increase. It is represented by an increase in the Kingdom of Heaven in the believer!!! It has nothing whatsoever to do with what one manages, outside of what the seed of faith (which is the heart) becomes, which is the tree representing the Kingdom of Heaven in the believer, which grows from the germinated seed, which is the heart of the believer (who has believed by faith, which is the germination).
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold,
the kingdom of God is within you.
One would do well to consider! Amen!
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Michael
Matthew 25:14-15
“Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, according to their abilities . Then he went on his journey.” (NIV)
The master divided the money (talents) among his servants according to their abilities . No one received more or less than he could handle. The different sums of money point out how God recognizes each person as a unique individual with varied circumstances and personality. What he “gives” to each person is exactly what that person can handle. The talents represent any kind of resource that believers are given. God gives us time, abilities, and other resources according to our abilities, and he expects us to invest them wisely until he returns.
Matthew 25:30
“‘And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’” (NIV)
To fail to do good with what God has entrusted to us, to fail to use it to increase his kingdom, is a grievous sin that will receive severe punishment—for it means that one never knew or loved the Master. The outside, darkness, and weeping and gnashing of teeth picture hell (see 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51).
Watching and waiting for the kingdom means being prepared. Being prepared means making ready for it by increasing the glory of God in this world through good deeds. Good deeds are best performed through the talents God has given us and should be done to the best of our ability.
There is no security apart from Jesus. He saves us, keeps us, and promises heavenly happiness after a life of faith and service. Only Jesus can do that. Rest only on him.
The security we enjoy in God’s promises should not make us presumptuous.
Live each day in faith, believing in God’s great promises, dedicating your time and talent to God’s work, loving your Christian brothers and sisters, being generous with the weak and poor.
Your life is secure in Christ, but what you do with your day is often your own choice. Make choices that please God.
(Life Application Bible Commentary: Matthew)
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Michael Harrison
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posted
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
However, I still like this as stated.
quote:
Mike, if the vine is holy and it is, the branches are holy as well, and we be the branches. The branches that are cut off are the ones below the original grafted spot or branches that have reverted back to the root stalk which would be....THE LAW. He is removing the law from within out conscience that we are still trying to keep contrary to the Gospel and the truth of the Spirit of God living through us and producing his fruit.
But...
quote:
Your right, I don't believe God would break a covenent relationship with us either , especially a covenent in his blood, we are bought with a price....
HE will not break the covenant. We do! How do we? We do so by 'not abiding' in Him. If He had gone so far as to boil the commandments down to one, after He had reduced the Ten to Two, the one would read, "Abide in Me!" (For apart from me ye can 'do' nothing [but fail].) That sums it up in one commandment.
But if you do not abide in HIM, you are as the man with only one talent, who bore no more talents, bore no more fruit.
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becauseHElives
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posted
Carol
quote:
oneinChrist
Galatians 5:24 - 26 (NLT) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.
Galatians 6:1 - 2 (NLT) 1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. 2 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ.
Carol what is the point of Galatians 6:1-2 if what is at hazard of being lost is not Salvation?
Reward base Salvation is what OSAS salvation is seeking to put in view.
The reason for restoring someone that has gone into sin is because if they don’t repent they will die and go to hell…this is what the Apostle Paul is putting forth.
Not losing a reward….
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
The OSAS doctrine is the reason we have the Great Apostasy taking place in the Church today….
Sin is not a big deal because all anyone is going to lose is their reward…
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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When Paul talked about 'casting down imaginations', he was not Counseling
those of the church to do so. It was not instruction. It was a description of what he was up against, which was a bunch of people who resisted the truth, as the Spirit would have them to understand. So, Paul was referring to his 'authority' to cast down believers imaginations, which stood in the way of realizing God properly. People would not realize God, the revelation of Christ their life, that they may 'Know Him'. Their imaginative concepts about everything resisted this. Therefore they were like a bunch of people from (you name the denomination)from around here. They were 'filled with the Spirit of God, but they were 'carnal' in their understanding, an unpleasant mix of flesh and spirit rather than pure spiritual revelation.
Paul was exhorting them to come to the revelation of Christ as their life, that they may be, in all areas, grafted in! Paul was exhorting them to come to the end of works based service, to the revelation of 'glorious liberty'.
So why does no one read the word the way it was written? This is exactly what Paul was talking about when he said this.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
The other question is this, "belief in what"? I believe he is talking about believing that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to whosoever believes. As each though is taken captive and made obedient to that truth, we will no longer produce the fruit of the sinful nature in that particular area because we have given God control of that area through repenting from trying to do it ourself, casting out demonic forces and inviting God to be God in that area.
Nicely said, though, why not in all areas?
~
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
My KJV version says that 'we' are the branches. That means people. People are branches. If we look at verse six, "If a 'man' abide not in me, he is cast forth as a [dead] branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
What this means, according to what you have related to me is that you misunderstand the meaning of grace!
But going back, what is it to 'abide in me' unless one is 'in' Him by having been born again. Therefore one can be born again, but not 'abide' in Him. Hence the logic, or expression of being cast forth as a dead branch.
quote:
The branches are not people, that thought contradicts grace.
???
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Michael Harrison
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ANM:
quote:
Mike, if the vine is holy and it is, the branches are holy as well, and we be the branches. The branches that are cut off are the ones below the original grafted spot or branches that have reverted back to the root stalk which would be....THE LAW.
This is a historical perspective, not a spiritual one. It is no doubt true as stated.
~
|Concerning the parable of the talents, here is how it opens, with this sentence:
Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
|Immediately it says that "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." and it goes on to tell the story of the three 'stewards' of the Kingdom. Welp! Keeping in mind that the parable represents the Kingdom of Heaven, let's look at what happened to that poor guy who brought no increase. At the end of the parable the poor guy is told:
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
|That surely does sound like he is 'losing' his reward.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
|But woe and begone, what saith it next?
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
|Is this the picture of someone losing their reward??? No, I tell you. He lost more than that. So it stands solidly, and unmistakably, that the parable is about salvation. (Who will read the word the way it is written?) For who would be cast into outer darkness by a 'loving' God just for losing money??? Osasers would do well to consider this lest they lead someone astray.
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Carol Swenson
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oneinChrist
Galatians 5:24 - 26 (NLT) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.
Galatians 6:1 - 2 (NLT) 1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. 2 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ.
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WildB
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"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.
And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.
Read prayerfully,
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
and
Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?
You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.
Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
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becauseHElives
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THE ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED DOCTRINE
After reading what the Bible says about salvation and those departing from the faith, let's look at Biblical examples of OSAS.
Genesis 3:3-4
3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
The lie of OSAS has been around since the beginning of creation. It was the very first thing that Satan used to get Eve, and He uses it yet today! Don't worry, little child, sin cannot destroy you, for it is no longer an issue! Heeheeheeheeheeheeheehee!
Jude 3-4
3: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude writes that we should earnestly contend for the faith, which is the opposite of what these certain men were teaching, which was a license for immorality, allowing true Grace to coincide with sin. This is OSAS, that sin can coincide with grace.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again ANM,
In Revelation Chapter 2 vs. 20 the church is warned against fornication and in Acts 15:20 the new gentile believers are also warned against fornication (which would include adulterous relationships).
Do you say that Jesus and the apostles are preaching the law to us? putting us in bondage again?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Carol Swenson
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A true branch, united with the vine, will always bear fruit . Not every branch bears a bumper crop, just as not every field has a bumper harvest (Matt. 13:8, 23), but there is always fruit where there is life. If there is no fruit, the branch is worthless and it is cast away and burned. I do not believe our Lord is teaching here that true believers can lose their salvation, for this would contradict what He taught in John 6:37 and 10:27-30. If anything, John 15:6 describes divine discipline rather than eternal destiny.
The vinedresser is in charge of caring for the vines, and Jesus said that this is the work of His Father. It is He who “purges” or prunes the branches so they will produce more fruit . Note the progression here: no fruit (John 15:2), fruit, more fruit, much fruit (John 15:5, 8).
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ANM
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Yea really! Whas up?
I'm glad you understand trees, and fruit, and branches etc. And I'm getting some insight into how you are applying it. So, If you know scripture, if HE is the vine, and we are the 'branch', what gets cut off? The branch! And where does it go? To the far (I'm fum da south). And what does it do? It barns!
Based on what you say:
quote:
he cleanses us continually with his blood to the root of the branch that was producing the undesired fruit. Or he cuts it off and throws it into the fire.
This is a clear cut case of 'abiding' or no! In order to be 'cleansed', the one must be abiding. Else he is on the side of judgment, in which case, he can be 'cut off'. In fact, he is cut off by nature of unbelief. Interesting how you applied it though. Nevertheless, if one is not abiding (and that is through belief) he is in sin. He does not benefit from grace! Mercy and forgiveness might still apply, however, but according to the scriptures that I read, you might not want to take the chance.
Overcome! Lest the world swamp you and you lose what you had gained.
Mike, if the vine is holy and it is, the branches are holy as well, and we be the branches. The branches that are cut off are the ones below the original grafted spot or branches that have reverted back to the root stalk which would be....THE LAW. He is removing the law from within out conscience that we are still trying to keep contrary to the Gospel and the truth of the Spirit of God living through us and producing his fruit.The branches are not people, that thought contradicts grace. I still produce evil fruit...do you? God is still cleansing or pruning me, and have have absolute peace knowing there is no condemnation in Christ and he deals with me gently and lovingly like he does you. The Lord is a consuming fire, he burns up our self righteousness by cleansing the law that produces it, he cleanses by fire.
The other question is this, "belief in what"? I believe he is talking about believing that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to whosoever believes. As each though is taken captive and made obedient to that truth, we will no longer produce the fruit of the sinful nature in that particular area because we have given God control of that area through repenting from trying to do it ourself, casting out demonic forces and inviting God to be God in that area.
--------------------
whats up?
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Carol Swenson
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posted
In Acts 6:3, 5, and 8, the description of Stephen provides a great model for us to develop in our own lives. He was said to be full of (controlled by) the following five elements: (1) the Holy Spirit, (2) wisdom, (3) faith, (4) grace, and (5) power. Ask God to fill you with these qualities.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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ANM
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
ANM
Let's make this easy. Just read back into the past posts by setting "Show topics from the last xx days, to 60, or 80, etc. Or, for that matter, start at the beginning of this one, and read! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But for that matter, I have to agree with you. That parable is about one's reward, and increase. Regrettably, what you do not see is that the gift is Jesus, and the reward is deeper knowledge of Him. Herein is the parable of the talents. For what was given them, (in the heavenly sense) was salvation. What increased was the Kingdom of God.
Your supposition however, fits right in with prosperity preaching. For it has an 'earthly gain' mindset, perhaps. Reaping what you sew would be to sew unto the Kingdom, and to reap thereof. And not to 'reap' of the Kingdom, makes one a slothful servant, and it will be taken from that one and given to another. That will leave him in the cold, far away from the warmth of the loving God.
You know, what you wrote is beautifully stated. I found joy in reading it. However, it came to an abrupt end when it threw me on that very last statement!!!
quote:
I say once saved always saved, its pretty clear to me.
Thanks mike, I wanted to be clear about my position on OSAS. I also want to be clear on the prosperity issue, I don't buy into it at all, prosperity may come through allowing the Lord to cleans us of all of our shortcomings, to transform us into truely loving people by His Spirit. That is true spiritual prosperity. I still think to say the talents are salvation is a stretch, and to reinforce a belief system that contradicts The Glorious light of the Gospel of grace by this stretch is blatantly wrong. Of course there is no condemnation for you believing this as we are all on the narrow path to God by faith and each one of us is right where God wants us. Ive been down different roads of err before and I probably will again, its ok, we still continue to seek God and his truth. If we are hungering and thirsting as I believe we are here we will be filled.
Now, to make a statement like that without backing it up would just be kinda rude...lol.I said alot in my other post I was writing as you were writing this, maybe that can shine some light on what Im talking about . your bro...Tom
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whats up?
Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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Michael Harrison
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Yea really! Whas up?
I'm glad you understand trees, and fruit, and branches etc. And I'm getting some insight into how you are applying it. So, If you know scripture, if HE is the vine, and we are the 'branch', what gets cut off? The branch! And where does it go? To the far (I'm fum da south). And what does it do? It barns!
Based on what you say:
quote:
he cleanses us continually with his blood to the root of the branch that was producing the undesired fruit. Or he cuts it off and throws it into the fire.
This is a clear cut case of 'abiding' or no! In order to be 'cleansed', the one must be abiding. Else he is on the side of judgment, in which case, he can be 'cut off'. In fact, he is cut off by nature of unbelief. Interesting how you applied it though. Nevertheless, if one is not abiding (and that is through belief) he is in sin. He does not benefit from grace! Mercy and forgiveness might still apply, however, but according to the scriptures that I read, you might not want to take the chance.
Overcome! Lest the world swamp you and you lose what you had gained.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Carol: Now that you have donned your gloves, I am going to have to turn the other cheek! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) And the other...
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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ANM
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi ANM,
I do believe that most christians on this site would agree that God would not break a covenant agreement with us. Yes, God is faithful even when we are not. What I do believe that some individuals(including me) are trying to point out is that christians can fall away from the faith. The vinedresser cutting out the dead and unfruitful branches, the olive branches that lift up in pride, the parable of the seed that was sown but when temptation came fell into thorns, references to departing from the faith, willfull sinning, the falling away before the man of sin is revealed, removing the candlestick, blotting names out of the book of life.................how could anyone think that there could be so many scriptural references to falling away from the faith and still deny the possibiity?
So for example, what do you say to a brother or sister christian who has gone into a life of adultery? Oh well, they just wont get as good as a reward as me? Oh how passive we can become to sin!......... what if your brother/sister is being drawn into the pits of Hell? He needs to be reminded of Gods warnings to us........flee fornication! flee from sin! get out of it!
When I read the gospels I do not see any indication that the "faithless" or "unfaithful" inherit eternal life............
Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me, in the day of regeration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory, ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my names sake, shall receive and hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
A faithful servant is a committed follower of Jesus. Does the faithful servant go around talking about how faithful he is?, no he should not lest pride overtakes him. Is it possible to be saved without being a faithful and committed follower of Jesus.....No, I do not believe so.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Your right, I don't believe God would break a covenent relationship with us either , especially a covenent in his blood, we are bought with a price.... Some who produce the fruit of the sinful nature have never been saved to begin with, we are not talking about them here, they abide in death seperate from God. We are talking about those who's minds have not been renewed and who have not ben perfected in love and patience but have been born again. It just so happens that Im in the nursery business and understand grafting very well. I believe the rootstock we are grafted into is israel,or simply the law for righteousness, not that the law ever made anyone righteous. Any shoots that grow from that rootstock below the graft will produce the fruit of the law which is in my mind the fruit of the sinful nature. 1cor15:56 says the law is the power of sin,2 cor 3 tells us the law (specifically the ten commandments is the ministration of death and condemnation. When the law produces its fruit it does so because an individual was trying to keep law to obtain righteousness rather than believing that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, I call it the sin of unbelief, there is no condemnation here it is the sin that leads not to death, every sin a christian commits from salvation forward leads not to death or "seperation" how could it, sin is the transgression of the law and we are not under law but under grace. Therefore he who is born of God cannot sin....unto death or seperation. He can sin the sin that leads not unto death which in my view is self righteousness ,which is simply trying on his own to keep law, and again as one tries on his own like a pharisee, the fruit of the law is produced. The fruit of the Spirit is a whole different issue, it is fruit produced by Him as we ask Him to cleanse our conscience from law we are trying to keep, He cleanses our conscience from dead works, the dead works are not the smoking or drinkimg or adultery, the dead works are us trying to keep law to obtain righteousness which eventually produces the fruit I just mentioned above. This new graft or new shoot will produce the fruit of the Spirit, good fruit, desirable fruit, loving fruit. As the rootstock puts out suckers(law) which **** the life out of the graft the Lord removes them, he cleanses us continually with his blood to the root of the branch that was producing the undesired fruit. Or he cuts it off and throws it into the fire. As he cursed the fig tree to the root so it would no longer produce its fruit, he must severe the root of the power of our sin which is the law " The power of sin is the law" If we walk in love by the power of His Spirit which comes through taking every thought captive and making it obedient to righteousness by faith we are headed in the direction of his heart...love.
"Falling away from the faith". I don't believe that means losing you salvation. I believe it means falling away from the truth of our faith. By faith in Christ we are saved, but many try to keep the law to obtain righteousness, they have salvation but are like the foolish galations who had been bewitched, certainly they were saved but headed in the wrong direction, someone was preaching a false way to them and God assured them that person would bear his judgement, I believe that judgement was for the purpose of bringing that false teacher to the truth and not to harm him.
As far as our adulterous brother or sister goes, adultery is also the fruit of the law, they don't need to repent from adultery as the mainline churches are teaching, they need to repent of trying to keep the law that says thou shalt not commit adultery because that is what is empowering it, again the law is the power of sin. Adultery is one of the ten commandments, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Have we all ceased from lying, are we all honoring our parents perfectly? Do we covet? Do we lust and hate in our heart ? do we keep the sabbath holy ?are we going to hell too like the adulterer? Was not the Blood of Jesus sufficient for our righteousness? Do we not have a new covenent in his blood which abolished the old covenent which is the very law by which we judge and adulterer? Why not judge the adulterer according to the law of the spirit of life in Christ....RIGHTEOUS by faith and pray that God would give him life in that area he is struggling with. As far as rewards go, God does not wait till we die to judge our fruit, when he see's it ...he is longsuffering and patient, gentle and kind or loving toward us that we might repent, we will reap what we sow when we are walking according to the flesh, for the purpose of bringing us to repentence so we can experience the abundant life in Christ.
In summary the judgement we meet to others is indicative of our belief system, do we believe we are righteous by faith or have we fallen from the faith by believing righteousness must be earned. Do we judge others according to the law which Christ has nailed to the cross(col 2:14) ? If we judge others according to the law we also judge ourselves according to the law and the law brings condemnation. There is no condemnation for those in Christ because the law that condemns 2cor3 has been done away with. A good way to know if you are still trying to keep it on your own(self righteousness ) is to ask your self this question....Do I feel condemned in any area? If you do you don't understand the gospel of grace yet and are probably judging others according to as if there is a law that needs kept to obtain righteousness, we reap the judgement we sow to others. Not from God but from self and our false belief system which is exactly contrary to the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.
And last but not least, the word faithful as in "faithful follower of Jesus Christ" means exactly that....full of faith, not full of works necesarily, you have to remember that he who has faith but works not, his faith is counted to him as righteousness. Your brother in Christ ...Tom.
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whats up?
Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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Michael Harrison
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ANM
Let's make this easy. Just read back into the past posts by setting "Show topics from the last xx days, to 60, or 80, etc." Or, for that matter, start at the beginning of this one, and read!
But for that matter, I have to agree with you. That parable is about one's reward, and increase. Regrettably, what you do not see is that the gift is Jesus, and the reward is deeper knowledge of Him. Herein is the parable of the talents. For what was given them, (in the heavenly sense) was salvation. What increased was the Kingdom of God.
Your supposition however, fits right in with prosperity preaching. For it has an 'earthly gain' mindset, perhaps. Reaping what you sew would be to sew unto the Kingdom, and to reap thereof. And not to 'reap' of the Kingdom, makes one a slothful servant, and it will be taken from that one and given to another. That will leave him in the cold, far away from the warmth of the loving God.
You know, what you wrote is beautifully stated. I found joy in reading it. However, it came to an abrupt end when it threw me on that very last statement!!!
quote:
I say once saved always saved, its pretty clear to me.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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posted
Carol and other OSAS teachers...
David Wilkerson,Eden,Michael,Keith,yahsway,
oneinchrist, myself and others see all the verses of scripture you provide, we have studied and conclude Yahweh is loving, merciful, kind and long suffering.... we know and understand there is nothing we can do to earn Yahweh's forgiveness... but unlike OSAS teacher we look at the individuals part, the yielding of our will, the taking up of our personal cross daily....
Yahweh did not give examples for nothing ...
Saul
His Salvation:
1 Samuel 10:6 -- And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
This happened just as God said, he became a new man, and was converted.
His departure:
1 Samuel 15:11 -- It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
See also 1 Samuel 16:14. Saul became a murderer according to 1 Samuel 22:18,19, and one of God's enemies in 1 Samuel 28:16.
Solomon
His Salvation:
1 Chronicles 22:10 -- He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
This prophecy was given to David regarding Solomon. This prophecy came true, thus he was a child of God, and God was his Father.
His Departure:
1 Kings 11:4 -- For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
See also 1 Kings 11:9, 1 Chronicles 28:9, and 1 Kings 11:40. You cannot "turn away", unless you were there to begin with.
Parable of the Sower
Mk.4:3-8, 4:14-20
Their Salvation:
verse 16: And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
They received the Word joyfully, and they grew. They were alive.
Their Departure:
verse 17: And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
A root is grown by gradual growth in Christ. Their root was small, they only endured for a short time. They didn't persevere.
Demas
His Salvation:
Philemon 24: -- Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
This doesn't necessarily prove that Demas was saved, but it gives a very good clue seeing he was following Paul and Paul even labeled a "fellowlabourer". Paul was picky about who traveled with him, as witnessed by Acts 15:37-41, where he refused to take someone with him because of a past experience of unfaithfulness.
His Departure:
2 Timothy 4:10 -- For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica;..."
If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. It is apparent that Demas was a believer, and then turned to the world.
Judas Iscariot
We know Judas died an unsaved man (Acts 1:25 Mark 14:21) through demon possession and suicide, but was he really saved to begin with?
His Salvation
Luke 6:13 -- And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
Luke 14:
26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27: And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
Matthew 12:
49: And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Judas was a disciple, and according to Jesus, saved.
Matthew 10:
7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8: Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
This charge was given to all disciples. Judas was given the power to heal sick, cleanse disease, raise the dead, and cast out devils. Is this not the mark of a saved man, and even more so, a representative of Jesus Christ?
Apostleship was the highest office in the Church. Judas fulfilled this requirement! He could not have been a fake.
John 17:12 -- While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.
And OSAS-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.
Simon
His Salvation:
Acts 8:13 -- Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
His Departure:
Acts 8:18-23
18: And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19: Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20: But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21: Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22: Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23: For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
According to paul, Simon would have perished with his money. His heart wasn't right in the sight of God, AND, he had NOT been forgiven yet, for Paul would not have told him to ask for forgiveness. And the fact that he was in the bond of iniquity, indicates that he was enslaved to sin. (see 2 Peter 2:20)
Fruitless Christians
Their Salvation/Departure: John 15:2 -- Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
John 15:6 -- If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
There is a story in Matthew about a servant of the King who was given one talent and told to make good use of it. He didn't. He never lost the talent, but he was fruitless in getting more. What happened to this man?
Matthew 25:30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The Lukewarm
Their Salvation/Departure
Revelation 3:
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
They would be spued out Christ! You cannot be spued out of Christ unless you were in Him to begin with.
The Unforgiving
Their Salvation: Matthew 18:23-31
>paraphrased<
The Kingdom of heaven is like a certain king that had a man that owed him a ton of money. He called the man forward and said "Pay me". The man couldn't. So the king ordered him to go to prison until the debt is paid. The man said, "I repent! Please forgive me of this great debt!" The King said "okay" and let the man go.
The man went outside and met a fella who owed him a little bit. He said "pay me". The fella couldn't. So he ordered him to go to prison. The fella said, "I repent! Please forgive me of this great debt!" The man said "Nuh-uh, you're going to jail."
So what happens? Let's read the Bible for the rest of it...
32: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me [repented]:
33: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34: And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35: So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
The forgiven became unforgiven! Watch out, it can happen to you too.
Unnamed 1
Their Salvation/Departure:
2 Timothy 2:
17: And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18: Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching a false doctrine about the resurrection and destroying the faith of the believers! This not only tells us that our faith can be destroyed (overthrown), but also that sin is not the only way to negate your salvation.
Unnamed 2
Their Salvation:
Luke 14:27,33
27: And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
33: So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
(They were saved)
Their Departure:
John 6:66 -- From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
They departed from following Christ.... what better way is there to lose your salvation?
Unnamed 3
Their Salvation/Departure:
1 Timothy 5:11-12,15
11: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12: Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
15: For some are already turned aside after Satan.
The younger widows should marry lest they are tempted to commit adultery and heap upon themselves damnation!
Unnamed 4
Their Salvation/Departure:
1 Timothy 6:8-10
8: And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9: But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10: For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Verse 9, they drowned in destruction. This is the same "destruction" used in Matthew 7:13 pertaining exactly to Hell. Verse 10, "they have erred from the faith". You cannot "err from the faith" unless you are in the faith to begin with.
Unnamed 5
Their Salvation/Departure:
Luke 12:
45: But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
His portion with the unbelievers is obviously talking about the lake of fire. But was he saved to begin with? Well, he was a servant, and notice that it says that he began to beat the other servants and get drunk. He didn't do that before. His actions were spurred because of the temptations derived from the long wait for his master to return. He was saved.
Unnamed 6
His Salvation/Departure:
1 Corinthians 8:10-11
10: For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
Unnamed 7
1 Timothy 3:
1-5 contains various requirements for the office of Bishop in the Church.
6: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
A young believer should not be given the office of Bishop in the Church of God lest he become prideful of it. This pride can bring upon him condemnation.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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Hi ANM,
I do believe that most christians on this site would agree that God would not break a covenant agreement with us. Yes, God is faithful even when we are not. What I do believe that some individuals(including me) are trying to point out is that christians can fall away from the faith. The vinedresser cutting out the dead and unfruitful branches, the olive branches that lift up in pride, the parable of the seed that was sown but when temptation came fell into thorns, references to departing from the faith, willfull sinning, the falling away before the man of sin is revealed, removing the candlestick, blotting names out of the book of life.................how could anyone think that there could be so many scriptural references to falling away from the faith and still deny the possibiity?
So for example, what do you say to a brother or sister christian who has gone into a life of adultery? Oh well, they just wont get as good as a reward as me? Oh how passive we can become to sin!......... what if your brother/sister is being drawn into the pits of Hell? He needs to be reminded of Gods warnings to us........flee fornication! flee from sin! get out of it!
When I read the gospels I do not see any indication that the "faithless" or "unfaithful" inherit eternal life............
Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me, in the day of regeration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory, ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my names sake, shall receive and hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
A faithful servant is a committed follower of Jesus. Does the faithful servant go around talking about how faithful he is?, no he should not lest pride overtakes him. Is it possible to be saved without being a faithful and committed follower of Jesus.....No, I do not believe so.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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ANM
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
15 “If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. 18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
This is a conversation that Jesus had with His disciples before He endured the Cross. All the clues are there on how to interpret it.
"I will not abaonon you as orphans." He means that He will send His Spirit to dwell in them, which cannot happen until He has endured the Cross. He even says, "Because He lives 'with' you now," because the Spirit had not been given yet while they were under the Old Covenant, and "but shall be 'in' you," when He is risen.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
See the 'condition' here? A condition is something that 'has to be met'. (This is exactly what I am talking about when I talk about participating.) What happens if the condition isn't met? It doesn't say here, but there is a clue in that there is a condition that has to be met. That implies that there is a consequence if the condition is not met. That will likely not be the same "No matter what."
Am I going to have to put on my boxing gloves. No! I need a switch. Hmmmmm! Where did I put it?
And what is his commandment ? It is simply to believe on the name of the Lord jesus Christ and to love one another. With love there is no law..being gentle , kind, remembering not past offenses and being patient. Who is he that overcomes? but he who believes on his name. Believing is overcoming, because we believe we have overcome. The righteous requirements of the law HAVE BEEN fully met in us in Him,because of the faith he has given us we have overcome. The gospel or new covenent is about grace, the old covenent is about laws rules and regulations, too many christians live in the old covenent, they lust to keep the law. The jews sought after righteousness but obtained it not as it were by the works of the law, the gentiles did'nt even seek it but obtained it through faith without ever hearing the law. I say once saved always saved, its pretty clear to me.
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whats up?
Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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ANM
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Beats everything I have ever seen!!! Osas blinds the heart to the truth. The 'fruit' of osas is bad. Bad fruit, withered leaf, furnace blast, I repeat. You had better have 'relationship', because, otherwise you have only the dark to keep - you.
It comes again to the parable of the talents. A man got salvation (which is what the parable represents) and lost it because he didn't cultivate relationship. He lost it (salvation) because it (what he thought he had given to him, as the passage reads) was taken from him and given to another. He lost it because he though he had osas. He rested in osas. Osas didn't work for him. That is the meaning of the parable, that you not count on osas. And it does not stand alone. There are examples that cannot be ignored all throughout. Yet, they seem to be meaningless???
Here is why we have the passage about what happened in the wilderness for our example. Yet, as loudly as this speaks, osas can turn up its nose as though that was unimportant to be said.
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Yea becausehelives. I spent time up there with the Wilkersons. There were some people from Russia there when I went. They were fortunate enough to get to America, and having read somewhat by people who were persecuted for their faith in Russia, I was breathtaken when two of them said that they had to go back. They had to witness to Jesus back in Russia. This was before the setback which has opened the doors temporarily for the gospel in that country.
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Right out of the startin gate your "theory" is flawed, why would God take someones salvation and give it to another? The parable is'nt about salvation its about reaping what you sow, its about stewardship, its definately not about salvation. Thats the problem here, people misunderstand things and take a biblical truth and apply it completely out of context and draw conclusions based on a false belief system.I would challenge you to produce more examples of how you can lose a gift God gave you that you had nothing to do with to begin with.....as though you had worked to obtain righteousness, therefore by your works you could lose righteousness.Our lives are hidden with Christ in God, and in him there is no sin,we are free from the law for righteousness, how could we possibly break a law we are free from and lose our salvation, especially when sin is the transgression of the law, the very law he nailed to his cross to set us free from it.The law for righteousness, the ministry of condemnation and death brough by moses has been done away with, the ministration of righteousness is here , righteousness by grace alone through faith alone, God judges us according to the works of his son, not according to our works, some of us may judge each other according to works but God certainly does not, he judges us according to Christs works....perfect!
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Carol Swenson
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Love and Obedience
Divine Discipline
Hebrews 12:6 - 8 (NLT) 6 For the LORD disciplines those he loves , and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.” 7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? 8 If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.
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Michael Harrison
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15 “If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. 18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
This is a conversation that Jesus had with His disciples before He endured the Cross. All the clues are there on how to interpret it.
"I will not abaonon you as orphans." He means that He will send His Spirit to dwell in them, which cannot happen until He has endured the Cross. He even says, "Because He lives 'with' you now," because the Spirit had not been given yet while they were under the Old Covenant, and "but shall be 'in' you," when He is risen.
21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
See the 'condition' here? A condition is something that 'has to be met'. (This is exactly what I am talking about when I talk about participating.) What happens if the condition isn't met? It doesn't say here, but there is a clue in that there is a condition that has to be met. That implies that there is a consequence if the condition is not met. That will likely not be the same "No matter what."
Am I going to have to put on my boxing gloves. No! I need a switch. Hmmmmm! Where did I put it?
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Carol that shows how shallow you are reading
I am not reading shallow. This is just some of what your article says. I repeat, it is a wonderful statement for OSAS.
God's plan for Abram continued uninterrupted. It was not thwarted by Abram's lack of faith, even though he had failed God miserably He is faithful concerning His purposes for our lives - even when we are not! . Likewise, beloved, whatever God determines for your life, you cannot stop, if you simply put your life in His hands. He is faithful concerning His purposes for our lives - even when we are not!
I know all about the restraining hand of the Lord. As I look back over the years of my walk with God, I realize I would not be here today if He hadn't had His restraining hand upon me. He will let His children go only so far - but no further!
Tell me - how many times have you been on the brink of making a foolish, horrible mistake? But then God's restraining Spirit came upon you, telling you, "Hold it - stop right there!" Even when we are faithless, He remains faithful. He comes to restrain us, to hold us - to keep us from doing stupid things!
Perhaps, like David, you have gone through some kind of insane period in your life. You faced utter chaos - and you gave up, saying, "I can't handle it anymore!" So you acted according to your flesh, playing the fool, getting ahead of God.
You ended up angry at yourself, disappointed, ashamed. You thought, "How could an anointed, Spirit-filled person like me have failed God so badly? Surely His blessing has to be taken from me now. I've been so vile, manipulative, dishonest, faithless. God can't use me anymore. He can't still be working on my behalf!"
You are so wrong! God will not allow some present struggle of yours to upset His call, plan and purpose for your life. You may have gotten off track - but God's plan is still on track. It is moving full speed ahead!
Had you run to the Lord, crying, "Didn't You see Peter cursing You?", He would have answered, "Yes, Peter has failed Me. But I know his heart. He's going to be on a hill in a few hours, weeping and crying. He's coming back to Me. In fact, he's on his way to Pentecost - to a life of ministry for Me!" "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13).
But there was something in Saul that emerged quickly - an arrogant pride! Saul would not confess or admit his sin. Instead, he blamed others to justify his actions. He was more concerned with keeping up appearances than with what God thought of him.
Saul went through the motions. He was more interested in what the people thought about him than in having grieved the Holy Spirit!
Beloved, it is pride - a haughty, unmoveable spirit - which brings men down! But a broken heart, a contrite spirit, captures the heart of the Lord. It doesn't matter what you've been through, or how you've failed the almighty God; if you're like Peter - if you run to weep it all out before Him after you've failed - He will stand with you. He always stands with those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit.
Even as I prayed, I felt so inadequate - so far from what God wants of me. I thought, "I don't think I'll ever make it. I'll never be worthy enough."
That's when the Lord gave me this very message! He said, "You're right, David - you'll never be holy enough, by your own standards and works. But right now I'm not looking for you to do some great thing for Me. I want you to know that, even as you're lying here praying, I'm at work being faithful to you, for My eternal purpose. And I'm going to see My purpose through in your life!"
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Carol Swenson
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Titus 3:4 - 11 (NLT)
4 But —“When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love, 5 he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. 6 He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 Because of his grace he declared us righteous and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life.”
8 This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to insist on these teachings so that all who trust in God will devote themselves to doing good. These teachings are good and beneficial for everyone. 9 Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. 10 If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them. 11 For people like that have turned away from the truth, and their own sins condemn them.
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Carol Swenson
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John 14:15 - 21 (NLT)
15 “If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. 18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”
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Michael Harrison
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Beats everything I have ever seen!!! Osas blinds the heart to the truth. The 'fruit' of osas is bad. Bad fruit, withered leaf, furnace blast, I repeat. You had better have 'relationship', because, otherwise you have only the dark to keep - you.
It comes again to the parable of the talents. A man got salvation (which is what the parable represents) and lost it because he didn't cultivate relationship. He lost it (salvation) because it (what he thought he had given to him, as the passage reads) was taken from him and given to another. He lost it because he though he had osas. He rested in osas. Osas didn't work for him. That is the meaning of the parable, that you not count on osas. And it does not stand alone. There are examples that cannot be ignored all throughout. Yet, they seem to be meaningless???
Here is why we have the passage about what happened in the wilderness for our example. Yet, as loudly as this speaks, osas can turn up its nose as though that was unimportant to be said.
~
Yea becausehelives. I spent time up there with the Wilkersons. There were some people from Russia there when I went. They were fortunate enough to get to America, and having read somewhat by people who were persecuted for their faith in Russia, I was breathtaken when two of them said that they had to go back. They had to witness to Jesus back in Russia. This was before the setback which has opened the doors temporarily for the gospel in that country.
~
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Carol Swenson
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The Spirit Indwells Believers
The very moment you trusted Jesus Christ, the Spirit of God entered your body and made it His temple (1 Cor. 6:19-20). He baptized you (identified you) into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). He sealed you (Eph. 1:13-14) and will remain with you forever (John 14:16).
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ANM
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When God comes callin and you say yes your saved, forever...no matter what else you believe, you can believe Jesus is the son of God and believe in prayin ta mary or believe darwin or even satanists, if you believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ thou shalt be saved,
Christ + nothing = salvation
Christ + darwin = salvation
Christ + majiuana = salvation
Its by grace, get your understanding wrapped around that. Faith is a gift, God don't save anyone for a few years and say....sorry I was just kiddin....next!
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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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Eden
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Ok, I'll keep this short.
For OSAS proponents: can you please tell me at what point and/or by what event, does a person qualify or become "once saved, always saved"?
Doea a person receieve OSAS when a person first believes?
Or does a person receive OSAS only after they have first shown that they "really believe in Jesus" before they can qualify for OSAS?
And who determines that someone has now qualified for "once saved, always saved"?
If God only who decides whether someone has "reached OSAS status", can we figure out from the scriptures when God makes that decision?
Is it decided during one's life, or is it decided at death?
And if during one's life, at what point, at first belief and that's good enough for God, or only after God has become convinced that someone really believes right now?
And what about a person who genuinely believed for 5 years, but thereafter believed in Darwin and never again believed in Jesus dying for his sins.
With OSAS, is that person still saved because they believed "at one time in their life"?
Thanks for helping me with your answers. eden
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becauseHElives
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Yes WildB, I am very familiar "The Cross and the Switch Blade" and the man that lived it...
Also had the privilege 2 years ago to spend a week with David Wilkerson at School of Christ Pastor’s Conference in Beaumont, Texas where he was one of the speakers.
He is a very humble man of God; he is one of the most solid teachers of the true Gospel of this century.
David Wilkerson teaches a fine balance between the “OSAS” scriptures and the scriptures that speak to “enduring to the end of ones Faith”
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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So are you saying you Know about the Cross and the Switch blade?
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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Carol that shows how shallow you are reading...that article is by David Wilkerson and some how you missed what he said about King Saul...
quote:
This brings me to God's warning:
There Is Only One Thing That Can Cause
the Lord To Turn Aside From You!
Only one thing can abort God's wonderful purpose for you - and that is the sin of stubborn pride! We see this in the life of Saul. Scripture tells us God's Spirit was on this man, from the day Samuel saw him coming down the road. God had called Saul, and He was using him.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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becauseHElives
quote:
Even as I prayed, I felt so inadequate - so far from what God wants of me. I thought, "I don't think I'll ever make it. I'll never be worthy enough."
That's when the Lord gave me this very message! He said, "You're right, David - you'll never be holy enough, by your own standards and works. But right now I'm not looking for you to do some great thing for Me. I want you to know that, even as you're lying here praying, I'm at work being faithful to you, for My eternal purpose. And I'm going to see My purpose through in your life!"
Beloved, the Lord is going to do that for every one of us! He uses the weak, foolish things of the world to accomplish His purposes. We all fail the Lord; no one in His church is perfect. Yet every time we are unfaithful to Him, He remains faithful to us!
So, take your eyes off of your failures and weaknesses, and fix them on His faithfulness. He cannot deny Himself. He is utterly faithful to His Word - and He is going to see you through all your battles! Hallelujah!
Your whole article is a wonderful statement for OSAS. Thank you so much!
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