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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation! (Page 6)

 
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Author Topic: Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation!
Kindgo
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quote:
Kindgo,
I believe that your statement "Oh no, I think I just lost my salvation" is quite sarcastic.

Yes it is sarcastic! But, I didn't write the article. I sure do agree with it tho.
You see..
I have never lost my salvation,and I have been saved many years. I have sinned, and guess what I am still saved, I have a blessed assurance.


I don't have to fret if I am saved or not saved.
You see Jesus died for ALL my sins, past present and future.

When I accepted His free gift, He made me a child of God, nobody can ever change that, not even me.


“Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.”
Psalm 23:6


Goodness and mercy will pursue you all the days of your life. That’s what the word “follow” literally means in Psalm 23:6 — to pursue.

Jesus pursued me with His call of salvation, and He will continue to pursue me. His goodness and mercy are like two sheep dogs that follow the flock to assure that there is safe journey to the Shepherd’s final destination.


I am sorry for all you law keepers.

I am sorry that you make what Jesus did at the cross worthless. He died for ALL sin.

Eden (Born Again) is right the only thing that will send a person to hell is unbelief.

You all "don't believe" that He is able to save you and keep you saved.


Isn't this almost the Catholic Doctrine of Venal and Mortal sins??


It is amazing how people in the most negative way want to have more power than God, ignore all of His rules to life, and arogantly deny what He wrought in Christ when He raised him from the dead.....

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Eden,
My friend in the Lord, I do believe there is truth to the conclusion that you appear to be drawing about God measuring our faith in Jesus. Otherwise, why would Jesus say to those Jews which believed on him, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free".....or why would He repeat over and over again "he that endures to the end shall be saved?"

I have to admit that when I compare some of Pauls teachings to some of Jesus' teachings that I can see where both sides of the debate can come to the conclusions that they do. When I read some of Pauls writings I try to take a few things into consideration......for ex: the nature of his(Pauls) testimony, the objective he seems to be trying to reach, the specific audience he is adressing, and the context of the verses.......Whereas on the other hand when I read Jesus' teachings I take into consideration that Jesus is the Son of God. If Paul and Jesus ever seem to contradict, guess who's side I am going to err on?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Eden
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Hi, Michael Harrison, you said:
quote:
God has provided the resources for us to be faithful: True! Then we have to accept them. What if Abraham hadn't 'accepted'. Then he couldn't have followed through. It is in the following through. Yep, it is the state of our condition at the time of our end of the race. It is why Paul said he had not attianed. It is why scripture says to perservere, and not faint.
Michael Harrison, I was glad to read from your post that the time when God measures whether someone has faith, or not, is at the death of a person.

I think that most OSAS proponents think that God measures whether someone has faith, or not when the first first believes.

Whereas non-OSAS people think that the time when God measures whether someone has faith, or not, is at the death of a person.

And unless that difference of when God measures is spoekn about, if we ignore it we can talk to infinity.

The discussion between OSAS proponents thus should largely include whether God starts to measure when a person first believes and then that person is saved throughout his life (no matter whether he became a carnal Christian or a more devoted spiritual Christian), or whether God measures when a person dies, whether there is faith in Jesus.

As you said, Michael Harrison, the Scriptures seem to point to the time of death that God measures whether a person has faith, as in: "That is why Paul said he had not attianed. That is why scripture says to perservere, and not faint" and many similar verses.

So I would like to ask the OSAS people, what scriptures would you like to set forth to support the view that God begins to measure faith when we first believe?

By the way, this has been an interesting Topic/post and I have learned some new things.

Thanks, Kindgo,for posting it, with the help of the Holy Spirit,
love, eden

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Carol Swenson
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Love your Father, and participate joyfully.


Galatians 5:22 - 23 (NLT)

22 But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control.


Da Vinci painted one Mona Lisa. Beethoven composed one Fifth Symphony. And God made one version of you. He custom designed you for a one-of-a-kind assignment . Mine like a gold digger the unique-to-you nuggets from your life.

God is creating a kingdom, a “spiritual house” (1 Pet. 2:5 CEV). He entrusted you with a key task in the project. Examine your tools and discover it. Your ability unveils your destiny. “If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 4:11). When God gives an assignment, he also gives the skill. Study your skills, then, to reveal your assignment.

Our Maker gives assignments to people, “to each according to each one’s unique ability” (Matt. 25:15). As he calls, he equips. Look back over your life. What have you consistently done well? What have you loved to do? Stand at the intersection of your affections and successes and find your uniqueness.

You have one. A divine spark. An uncommon call to an uncommon life. “The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others” (1 Cor. 12:7 CEV). So much for the excuse “I don’t have anything to offer.” Did the apostle Paul say, “The Spirit has given some of us …”? Or, “The Spirit has given a few of us …”? No. “The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.”

Enough of this self-deprecating “I can’t do anything.”

And enough of its arrogant opposite: “I have to do everything.” No, you don’t! You’re not God’s solution to society, but a solution in society. Imitate Paul, who said, “Our goal is to stay within the boundaries of God’s plan for us” (2 Cor. 10:13 NLT).

Clarify your contribution.

Don’t worry about skills you don’t have. Don’t covet strengths others do have. Just extract your uniqueness. “Kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you” (2 Tim. 1:6 NASB).


Max Lucado

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Michael Harrison
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God has provided the resources for us to be faithful: True! Then we have to accept them. What if Abraham hadn't 'accepted'. Then he couldn't have followed through. It is in the following through. Yep, it is the state of our condition at the time of our end of the race. It is why Paul said he had not attianed. It is why scripture says to perservere, and not faint. It is why scripture says "To him who overcomes." There is more to back this up. But in one sense the osas crowd 'accept' this, and their faith is demonstrated in that acceptance. However, the concern is, or will be when they are tried. For we live in a soft country. It times become harder, some of these osas people who are so sure, will fall away. Are they like Job? But His provision is there as long as we accept. It is why scripture says that He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to Him. But one has to consider the implications of the statements of being tried, overcoming, accepting (which is believing, and yielding). For scripture says that we will be tried by fire.

I suspect that a person who perserveres long enough is in good! But he still has not made it to the end. So he must not let overconfidence throw him. To this end it says, "Take heed if any thinks he stands, lest he fall."

The crowd who believes in election, and predestination are scary in that it is almost as if their salvation is automatic, and they did not participate in coming to their state of redemption. They just recognized it as a fact. This is scary. Even though God loved them first, and called them, they had to come to a point of decision. They had to believe unto salvation by surrender to His will. They weren't already saved. Some people believe that. The problem however is that, the ones who are saved, still must 'participate' till then end for the reward. Of course, if they didn't participate in the beginning, to be 'born again', they have who knows what. And if they did participate unto being born again, their partcipation is not over, and if they quit participating, they no longer abide in Him. They wither, and are cast forth as dry branches and burned. That is Os not as. But I will take it under advisement that I must fear, and participate in His Grace in order to receive a crown.

~

The passage of Eph 4:30 is being abused. It is being used as a defense against dissention of another from what the one believes. It is not grieving the Holy Spirit to dissagree with what the one wants to believe. That passage is a reiteration of what the chapter is talking about concernng the treatment of one another in Christ. When it says not to greive the Spirit, it does not mean that you are grieving Him because you do not believe the second part of the verse mean osas. That would be out of context. It would have to stand alone to mean that.

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Carol Swenson
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God keeps His own (John 17:11-12). Our safety depends on the nature of God, not our own character or conduct . When He was on earth, Jesus kept His disciples and they could depend on Him. “I kept them in Thy name” (John 17:12). If the limited Saviour, in a human body, could keep His own while He was on earth, should He not be able to keep them now that He is glorified in heaven? He and the Father, together with the Holy Spirit, are surely able to guard and secure God’s people!

Furthermore, God’s people are the Father’s gift to His Son. Would the Father present His Son with a gift that would not last? The disciples had belonged to the Father by creation and by covenant (they were Jews), but now they belonged to the Son. How precious we are in His sight! How He watches over us and even now prays for us! Whenever you feel as though the Lord has forgotten you, or that His love seems far away, read Romans 8:28-39—and rejoice!

Our security rests in another fact: we are here to glorify Him (John 17:10). With all of their failures and faults, the disciples still receive this word of commendation: “I am glorified in them.” Would it bring glory to God if one of His own, who trusted in the Saviour, did not make it to heaven? Certainly not! This was Moses’ argument when the nation of Israel sinned: “Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘For mischief did He bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth?’” (Ex. 32:12) Certainly God knows all things, so why save them at all if He knows they will fail along the way? Whatever God starts, He finishes (Phil. 1:6).

God has provided the divine resources for us to glorify Him and be faithful. We have His Word (John 17:7-8), and His Word reveals to us all that we have in Jesus Christ. The Word gives us faith and assurance. We have the Son of God interceding for us (John 17:9; Rom. 8:34; Heb. 4:14-16). Since the Father always answers the prayers of His Son (John 11:41-42), this intercessory ministry helps to keep us safe and secure.

We also have the fellowship of the church: “that they may be one, as we are” (John 17:11). The New Testament knows nothing of isolated believers; wherever you find saints, you find them in fellowship. Why? Because God’s people need each other. Jesus opened His Upper Room message by washing the disciples’ feet and teaching them to minister to one another. In the hours that would follow, these men (including confident Peter!) would discover how weak they were and how much they needed each other’s encouragement.

The believer, then, is secure in Christ for many reasons: the very nature of God, the nature of salvation, the glory of God, and the intercessory ministry of Christ. But what about Judas? Was he secure? How did he fall? Why did Jesus not keep him safe? For the simple reason that Judas was never one of Christ’s own. Jesus faithfully kept all that the Father gave to Him, but Judas had never been given to Him by the Father. Judas was not a believer (John 6:64-71); he had never been cleansed (John 13:11); he had not been among the chosen (John 13:18); he had never been given to Christ (John 18:8-9).

No, Judas is not an example of a believer who “lost his salvation.” He is an example of an unbeliever who pretended to have salvation but was finally exposed as a fraud. Jesus keeps all whom the Father gives to Him (John 10:26-30).


(Wiersbe)

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Eden
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Hi, Kindgo. You asked
quote:
I'd like to ask all the people who believe I can lose my salvation this question:

What sins will make me lose my salvation?

It is not a sin or sins that will make us lose our salvation, but unbelief:

Romans 11
20 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and you stand by faith. But be not highminded, but fear.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also does not spare you.

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is all being said to Christians, and not to heathens.

So it is not a sin or sins that causes us to lose our salvation, because our sins are covered by what Jesus did for us on the cross...provided that we remain in belief.

But if we depart from the living God after we have believed and become brethen, and stop believing that Jesus died for our sins, then a person is no longer covered by the work of Jesus but has put himself back under the law:

Hebrews 3:12
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

John 8:24
I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.

Now, with that said, how does that work together with:

Ephesians 1
13 In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you BELIEVED you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

In Ephesians 4 above Paul is speaking of a person who still is a believer and Paul says "do not grieve the Spirit" by corrupt communication and the like behaviors.

But as for the phrase "whereby I am sealed unto redemption", that can mean that I remain sealed unto redemption provided that I remain in belief.

So that, if I go back into unbelief by saying, "you know, that Jesus stuff that I have been believing in for all these years, I no longer believe in that medieval nonsense", then I "have departed from the Living God" and I am "no longer sealed unto redemption".

I am putting myself back under the law and have to pay for my own sins again:

John 8:24
I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you do not believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.

with love, eden

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Michael Harrison
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That was one of the best posts that I have ever read Carol - "The sooner we discover that we are branches!" (You too oneinchrist.)


wildbe: Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is to lie to Him. That means to misrepresent something to Him. To hold false doctrine in the heart is to lie to one's self, and perhaps to Him, in that one misrepresents the facts to Him as though they were true.

All manner of sin will be forgiven man except.... If this were not so, we would all lose our salvation. It is not these sins that threaten our redemption. It is the hardening of the heart. It is taking for granted, rather than, as oneinchrist said, watching. If our eyes are not on Him, bur rather on the world, we are in danger. Here is an example that addresses your new question though kindgo: If one is in a sin, such as an immoral sexual act when He appears, it is over! You will not have time to repent for He says that His coming will be as the lghtening flashes from the east to the west. It will be as in the twinkling of an eye. Here is why HE says 'wateh' and not be distracted. \

But I'll say it again, we will be judged for the deeds done in the body. It is more than losing one's reward when that judgment takes place. That is why the parable of the talents says what it says to the one who squandered what was given him (which represents salvation given to him). He got it, but he didn't cultivate it. It goes back to the plant thing. It is reason to fear, but with praise and thanksgiving! He is good and His provision steadfast.

But someone, on fire by His Spirit burned for Him for a while, but the temptation of the world overwhelmed him. He never recovered. What was given to him was lost. He died unrepentant from the sin that brought him again under bondage. If you die in sin, you do not have an excues. You have 'crucified' again unto yourself, Christ. There remaineth therefore no sacrifice for sin. You have crucified the sacrifice that covered for you. So, as it it written, you only have fiery indignation to look forward to.

1 Thes 1:6 "Watch and be sober." The sober mentioned here does not mean not to be drinking. It means to be in relationship. It means to be giving attention to.

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oneinchrist
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Kindgo,
I believe that your statement "Oh no, I think I just lost my salvation" is quite sarcastic. I think that you should consider that those on this site that believe it is possible to lose salvation may very well be concerned for the souls of others,yes even your soul. I think it can be assumed that an individuals salvation status would not fluctuate like a teeter totter everytime they sin, and I also think that it can also be assumed that God would not be the covenant breaker.

I was reading scripture the other night and I could'nt help but notice how often we are warned to be watchful.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

1 Thessalonians 5:6
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 3:2
Be watchful, and strenghthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

According to my bible dictionary the word "watch" means to keep awake, be alert, give strict attention lest through negligence and indolence some destructive calamity overtakes one, or lest one deny or forsake Christ, or fall into sin. END

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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You can't lose your salvation, but I have heard that some Christians live miserable lives because they are not really living for Christ. I think the movie "Facing The Giants" is a great illustration of this.

Matt.12

[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Is there an “unpardonable sin” today? Yes, the final rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus made it clear that all sins can be forgiven (Matt. 12:31). Adultery, murder, blasphemy, and other sins can all be forgiven; they are not unpardonable. But God cannot forgive the rejection of His Son. It is the Spirit who bears witness to Christ (John 15:26) and who convicts the lost sinner (John 16:7-11).

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Kindgo
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Well so much for that.. [Big Grin]

My question now is:

If I sin, then immediatly I'm struck by lightening, am I condemmed to hell for eternity?

Which sins will cause me to lose my salvation? How many do I have to commit?

Which sins did Jesus not die for?

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Carol Swenson
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The sooner we as believers discover that we are but branches, the better we will relate to the Lord; for we will know our own weakness and confess our need for His strength.

The key word is abide; it is used eleven times in John 15:1-11 (“continue” in John 15:9 and “remain” in John 15:11). What does it mean to “abide”? It means to keep in fellowship with Christ so that His life can work in and through us to produce fruit. This certainly involves the Word of God and the confession of sin so that nothing hinders our communion with Him (John 15:3). It also involves obeying Him because we love Him (John 15:9-10).

How can we tell when we are “abiding in Christ”? Is there a special feeling? No, but there are special evidences that appear and they are unmistakably clear. For one thing, when you are abiding in Christ, you produce fruit (John 15:2). Also, you experience the Father’s “pruning” so that you will bear more fruit (John 15:2). The believer who is abiding in Christ has his prayers answered (John 15:7) and experiences a deepening love for Christ and for other believers (John 15:9, 12-13). He also experiences joy (John 15:11).

This abiding relationship is natural to the branch and the vine, but it must be cultivated in the Christian life. It is not automatic. Abiding in Christ demands worship, meditation on God’s Word, prayer, sacrifice, and service —but what a joyful experience it is! Once you have begun to cultivate this deeper communion with Christ, you have no desire to return to the shallow life of the careless Christian.

THE FRUIT

The word results is often heard in conversations among Christian workers, but this is not actually a Bible concept. A machine can produce results, and so can a robot, but it takes a living organism to produce fruit. It takes time and cultivation to produce fruit ; a good crop does not come overnight.

We must remember that the branches do not eat the fruit: others do. We are not producing fruit to please ourselves but to serve others . We should be the kind of people who “feed” others by our words and our works. “The lips of the righteous feed many” (Prov. 10:21).

Several different kinds of spiritual fruit are named in the Bible. We bear fruit when we win others to Christ (Rom. 1:13). We are a part of the harvest (John 4:35-38). As we grow in holiness and obedience, we are bearing fruit (Rom. 6:22). Paul considered Christian giving to be fruit from a dedicated life (Rom. 15:28). “The fruit of the Spirit” (Gal. 5:22-23) is the kind of Christian character that glorifies God and makes Christ real to others. Even our good works, our service, grow out of our abiding life (Col. 1:10). The praise that comes from our hearts and lips is actually fruit to the glory of God (Heb. 13:15).

Many of these things could be counterfeited by the flesh, but the deception would eventually be detected, for real spiritual fruit has in it the seeds for more fruit . Man-made results are dead and cannot reproduce themselves, but Spirit-produced fruit will go on reproducing from one life to another. There will be fruit—more fruit—much fruit.

A true branch, united with the vine, will always bear fruit . Not every branch bears a bumper crop, just as not every field has a bumper harvest (Matt. 13:8, 23), but there is always fruit where there is life. If there is no fruit, the branch is worthless and it is cast away and burned. I do not believe our Lord is teaching here that true believers can lose their salvation, for this would contradict what He taught in John 6:37 and 10:27-30. If anything, John 15:6 describes divine discipline rather than eternal destiny.

The vinedresser is in charge of caring for the vines, and Jesus said that this is the work of His Father. It is He who “purges” or prunes the branches so they will produce more fruit . Note the progression here: no fruit (John 15:2), fruit, more fruit, much fruit (John 15:5, 8).


(Be Transformed-John 13-21)

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
In response to this question:
quote:
What sins will make me lose my salvation?

I post this single answer: unfruitfullness. See John 15:4-8 and Matthew 25:14-30 (particularly verses 24-30).
Thats a condition not a sin.

For the Corintians could speak in toungs yet a man had his fathers wife.

What did Paul say?

Now your salvation is gone?

No he did not.

1Cor.5
[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

--------------------
That is all.....

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TB125
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In response to this question:
quote:
What sins will make me lose my salvation?

I post this single answer: unfruitfullness. See John 15:4-8 and Matthew 25:14-30 (particularly verses 24-30).

--------------------
Bob

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Kindgo
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I'd like to ask all the people who believe I can lose my salvation this question:

What sins will make me lose my salvation?

Isn't this almost the Catholic Doctrine of Venal and Mortal sins??

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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WildB
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"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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very good points Eden... i to would like to hear the answer to your question
quote:
what do the words to the end refer to in the following scriptures:

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that everyone of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcomes and keeps my works UNTO THE END, to him will I give power over the nations.

also here is a web site that speaks to all you who support "Once Saved Always Saved"...

please add the scriptures found on the following web site to Eden's and respond with an answer....

http://www.eternal-security.org/

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Eden
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Hi, Kindgo, you said,
quote:
Hello, Eden, born again, I think your post is nonsense, no scripture to prove your points.
First of all, what does that born again part refer to in your response??? But regarding what you said, that my post is nonsense, no scripture to prove my points, I mentioned about 3 Scripture verses that said “IF we keep our confidence to the end.”

If I may then, Kindgo, what do the words to the end refer to in the following scriptures:

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that everyone of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcomes and keeps my works UNTO THE END, to him will I give power over the nations.

Dear Kindgo, what does that phrase, UNTO THE END, refer to in the above verses?

Thank you for helping me understand where you are coming from. Love, eden

Dear Michael Harrison and Aaron, I know what Kindgo thinks of my proposal that OSAS proponents and non-OSAS proponents are both looking at the wrong place on which God bases His final Opinion, namely, not on when a person first believes but on what the faith state is of that person when that person dies.

I know what Kindgo thinks of the proposal ("nonsense without any Scriptures to prove it"), but what do you Michael Harrison and Aaron think of that proposal?

If God determines whether we are in the faith at death rather than "when we first believed" (God is interested in the END result"), then all debate, both for and against OSAS, is immediately done away with.

Do you think that God would set up a Biblical system or doctrine that would CREATE an OSAS debate when God can AVOID such a debate by simply determining whether someone is a Christian by whether they DIED believing that Jesus died for their sins? That makes a lot more sense, doesn't it?

HOWEVER,

With all that said, I do have to admit that one of the strongest verses I have heard thus far FOR OSAS is WildB's verse FOR OSAS:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I have to admit that the Holy Spirit would have to be present in me all the time in order for me to be able to still grieve the Holy Spirit.

In other words, I cannot grieve a Holy Spirit who has for now departed because of my new unbelief.

Because if, similar to Michael Harrison, I'm going to say that the Holy Spirit departs from me while I am again in a state of unbelief, then how can I grieve a Holy Spirit who is no longer there?.

And also the second part of that same verse is evidence FOR OSAS:

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.

If I am sealed unto the day of redemption, that does seem to indicate that I am sealed now, and I will remain sealed unto the day of my redemption.

God's wish is however that I do not grieve the Holy Spirit while we are waiting for the time of redemption.

So I think that the Ephesian verse IS veru powerful evidence FOR OSAS. Thank you, WildB.

But WildB, how does that verse work together with Michael Harrison's verse:

Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,IF you continue in His goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

That was written in the New Testament book of Romans which was being said to believing Christians, was it not?

with love, eden

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
~Consequence~

Who will read the word according to the way it is written?

Hebrews 12:5 - 9 (NLT)

5 And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said, “My child, don’t make light of the LORD’s discipline, and don’t give up when he corrects you. 6 For the LORD disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.” 7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? 8 If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all. 9 Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever?


Chastening is the evidence of the Father’s love. Satan wants us to believe that the difficulties of life are proof that God does not love us, but just the opposite is true. Sometimes God’s chastening is seen in His rebukes from the Word or from circumstances. At other times He shows His love by punishing (“the Lord … scourgeth”) us with some physical suffering. Whatever the experience, we can be sure that His chastening hand is controlled by His loving heart. The Father does not want us to be pampered babies; He wants us to become mature adult sons and daughters who can be trusted with the responsibilities of life.

This is chastening, not loss of salvation.

quote:
It remaineth that the wages of sin is death. Sin is the failure to trust God for life! Therefore the wages of sin.
OSAS trusts God for life!
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Michael Harrison
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Yea, things get buried pretty deep in a thread. I'lllook forward to what you present.
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Aaron
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Hi Michael,

Just to be clear: I wasn't addressing your words, per se, I was merely stating a generalization.

Try as I might I have never been able to turn a "you can lose your eternal life"-er from his/her beliefs. For the most part their stance does not offend me, nor, I believe, God. I do get riled up (and I believe so does God) when legalism (cut your beard a certain way) and liturgy (X amount of Bible study = a serious Christian) are presented as a means of obtaining and continuing in salvation.

This part was interesting:

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
How long will a marrage last if one of the partners is cold towards the other? It cannot thrive. And even if the one partner is exceedingly strong and able to weather such adversity for a very long time, if the other doesn't come around, the marrage will still eventually die. It cannot survive.

I, too, think of our relation to Christ as a bride betrothed. There is a lot I'd like to say about this. Perhaps in another thread...

With love,
Aaron

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Hey Mike, you have a beam in your eye..
They accused Jesus of evil. We will just have to see if you are true. I stand confident.

The beam represents when one is in judgment of another's sin, while they are guilty of worse. There is no judgment of sin here, only admonishment for the edification of the believer that they may escape the snare of the devil.

Mat 11:12 "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

Beware the inquisition! The self righteous will kill to make their point right!

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Michael Harrison
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You are a lantern with your light half full!

What would be the purpose of the parable if osas is true? Most scripture could be done away with then. Seeking would not be necessary. Serving would not be needed. Osas would take care for everything and the parable of the virgins would be meaningless.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
What do you benefit wyldb? Which is wronger, to say that you cannot lose your salvation, which means that there is no need to argue it, if so; or to caution others not to take for granted so great a salvation, in which case the one considering will be wise and prudent in any wise? If salvation cannot be lost, you have no need to argue. There is no action, no argument necessary, much less the need to reprimand someone such as me if it is so. If it is so, then you can rest in your confidence, because what I teach will not, cannot cost me my salvation. What do you gain wyldb, because if I were wrong, there would be no consequence for you to speak against. Your argument is mute. To err on the side of caution is expedient, and certainly harmless. To err on your side could cost you everything. Argue till you are blue in the face! You are not preventing any from a costly error, if you are right! I am.

We are not Virgins following a wedding with our lanterns.

We are Lanterns made Virgins by the blood.


Pss.119

[105] Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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What do you benefit wyldb? Which is wronger, to say that you cannot lose your salvation, which means that there is no need to argue about it, if so; or to caution others not to take for granted so great a salvation, in which case the one speaking and the one considering will be wise and prudent in any wise? If salvation cannot be lost, you have no need to argue. There is no action, no argument necessary, much less the need to reprimand someone such as me if it is so. If it is so, then you can rest in your confidence, because what I teach will not, cannot cost me or anyone their salvation. So what do you gain wyldb, because if I were wrong, there would be no consequence for you to speak against. Your argument is mute. To err on the side of caution is expedient, and certainly harmless, compared. To err on your side could cost you everything. Argue till you are blue in the face! You are not preventing any from a costly error, if you are right! I am. You have nothing to defend - if you are right! Then why are you arguing?

Rom 2:16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." The Apostle Paul.

Will you stand?

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
~Consequence~

Who will read the word according to the way it is written?


2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

Now Absalom was one that David said he would die for.


That boy died in his rebellion .


Will you die in yours?

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That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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~Consequence~

Who will read the word according to the way it is written?


2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

~Consequence~

2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.


"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Rom 6:23)

It remaineth that the wages of sin is death. Sin is the failure to trust God for life! Therefore the wages of sin.

Consequence, the inescapability thereof:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."(Gal 6:7)

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

So, he who reapeth corruption, how sayeth thou, that he reapeth life even though he sewed to corruption?

He who sews to the Spirit shall of the Spirit, reap life everlasting. Consequence! To what will you sew, unto corruption, while expecting to reap life?

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Kindgo
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quote:
The direst consequence is when someone clings to an erronious idea, and loses it all, all the while thinking that they were absolutely correct. This is why scripture says that there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth." I find it disheartening to consider, for the sake of so many.
Hey Mike, you have a beam in your eye.. [happyhappy]

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I see wyld b. I think you posted those already. They are good passages. I like them! However, never minding these, if what you say (overall) is true, then there is no consequence. But it is all about consequence, starting with Lucifer, until now. All of Israel's backsliding and repenting, which was written 'for our admonition' is about consequence! Consequence cannot be escaped. So, consequence is not eradicated. It is real. No one who reads scripture with this in mind can say that it is not so. For if the sinner does not repent, there is consequence. If the believer sins, there is consequence. He does not escape just because he is forgiven. Consequence still happens!


The consequence of sin is DEATH.

What did the Lord say to David?

2Sam.12

[13] And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

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That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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I see wyld b. I think you posted those already. They are good passages. I like them! However, never minding these, if what you say (overall) is true, then there is no consequence. But it is all about consequence, starting with Lucifer, until now. All of Israel's backsliding and repenting, which was written 'for our admonition' is about consequence! Consequence cannot be escaped. So, consequence is not eradicated. It is real. No one who reads scripture with this in mind can say that it is not so. For if the sinner does not repent, there is consequence. If the believer sins, there is consequence. He does not escape just because he is forgiven. Consequence still happens!

The direst consequence is when someone clings to an erronious idea, and loses it all, all the while thinking that they were absolutely correct. This is why scripture says that there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth." I find it disheartening to consider, for the sake of so many.

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Michael Harrison
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Aaron:

When I read this sentence of yours, this is how it went through my mind.

Quote! For the most part, I must be content to do His work without any "help" from me. Quote!


~


Yea! It takes a lot of setting up to make a case that is hard to be misunderstood, but who will read carefully, such a long dissertation. It is hard to know what someone will reflect on when reading what is posted. This sentence by you made me think of this:

quote:
..quite the opposite is true. After coming out from the doctrine of "God is lurking about ready to catch you unawares so He can smite you"
I can see how it would be easy to think that this is the God whom I am painting when I talk about osas, repentance, and so on, but for clarification, I am not talking about a God who is hiding just out of sight with a stick, waiting to inflict a stinging recompense. We all know that we were born in sin, and sometimes do not recognize the horror of it as we should. But, let's focus on the person for the moment rather than God's judgment. The person whom I express concern about is the one whom is given to disregard. I think that he is in trouble. If one is complacent in their walk, in their relationship, they neglect the life giver. How long will a marrage last if one of the partners is cold towards the other? It cannot thrive. And even if the one partner is exceedingly strong and able to weather such adversity for a very long time, if the other doesn't come around, the marrage will still eventually die. It cannot survive.

Of course, every marriage goes through tests and challenges in the normal course of its being, but if the affection of one partner dies, deeper hardship sets in. Marriage is a picture of our relationship with Him. This is why scripture says not to court sin. Temptation can steal you away and make you cold towards the one who is deserving of your attention, and devotion. At some point one will likely be abandoned out of necessity, not willingly.

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WildB
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[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

Job.38
[31] Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

Thoses that say you can loose this band of your salvation are part of the new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

For it is the Holy Spirit that SEALs until the day of redemption.

Grieve Him Not~

--------------------
That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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Here is the paradox: It is 'done' but it is not 'automatic'. Think about it.

It is not as though it is by works, but it is not automatic.

It is not 'automatic'.

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Michael Harrison
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And wyldb makes the sign of the cross and holds it up as though warding off a vampire! That only works in the movies wyldb. It will not help you here! Protection is in the "Blood of Jesus." It is the blood of Jesus that protects. If you get out from under the blood, the true vampire will get you! Osas will not matter to him.
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Michael Harrison
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To reiterate, (For Carol's sake, since she cannot find anything 'anywhere' to defeat the notion of osas. It is in the bible Carol - rock solid.)

In this passage below, the admonishment that preceeded it spoke of the consequences that befell those who murmured, fornicated, or lusted, who fell in the wilderness. The admonishment is that these things are writen for our admonishment, so that we would not take anything for granted, such as osas, and, if you will, "Be of an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God." Otherwise these passages were for nought. They serve no purpose in a book which is there "For our instruction and reproof."

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1Co 10:12)

To stand on osas is to think you are standing!


Here now, are more undeniable verses, though, the osas crowd will find a way around them, so they think:

Let's start with this one and take them one at a time, for they are profound taken in their individuality:

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Rom 11:21)

Read in the gospels what happens to branches that dry up, remembering that He says that HE is the vine, and we are the branches

Some, looking at this passage will rationalize it (make it to fit their understanding) by saying that Jesus was talking about those who do not repent, such will therefore not be spared. But consider this next verse, which preceeds the one we just read:

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" (Rom 11:20 )

And what about it if we analyze it? "Thou o believer, standest by - what? Faith! It is clear, and literal, implying that without faith, one is not standing, but these were, so says He 'standing' thereby! Therefore the message to those who are standing is that compromising with the world is literally a perious lack of faith.

Then the passage says that because of unbelief these were broken off, reinforcing the idea that they were "IN," not out. And where does it go from there? If I could only say this loudly enough for it to echo around the world: It says next to: "Be not highminded, but fear." We can stop here. This shouldn't be skimmed over lightly. It should snap one to attention!!! Fear and consider. That is the opposite of osas, which eliminates the need to fear, consider and submit.


But why did He say all of this, including the next verses?

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

As I just stated above scripture says not to be highminded, but fear. In other words, do not be self confident, or assured. Do not take anything for granted, but fear, and search. You are grafted in, but the message is loud, ind in black and white print: you can be grafted out.

And for the final admonishment from this group of verses:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom 11:22)

Take it personally! What does it say? "If thou CONTINUE in His goodness," you will 'finish the race', otherwise thou shalt be CUT off!!!

For He further says:

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in [again]: for God is able to graff them in again." (Rom 11:23)

See the conditions here? "If they abide not STILL in unbelief..."

What says He may happen under those conditions? There are results.

"For God is able to graft them in again."

This applies to the individual. Paul is admonishing individuals.

Going back to the passage at the top, "Be not of an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God."

Key words and phrases: Evil heart; unbelief; DEPARTING!

Departing! Can it be any louder??? Be not of an evil heart in DEPARTING from the Living God.

What does one suppose will happen if one does? He will be blessed, and told, "Enter thou into the joy of the Lord."

???

Think about it. The word is 'departing'. You cannot 'depart' from where you are not.

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Michael Harrison
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Who reads the word the way it is written? The way to misread scripture is to subject it to the carnal understanding. It will then seem to reinforce itself. Whole denominations, and even cults are founded this way.

Here, as a matter of fact, is a perfect example of misreading the word. “They went out from us.” They!!! Who -are - they? For in the discussion concerning once saved always saved, this scripture is often referenced as evidence that those who went out from the body of believers, were not saved in the first place; proof positive that no one loses their salvation. So these types illustrated herein are used as an example to bolster the notion that no one ’who was saved’ lost their salvation, since these (used for example) were not even saved in the first place. Well, after all, who were ‘They’? It might make a difference to know:


“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. “(1Jn 2:18 )


They were antichrists, 'who went out from among us'! Of course these were not saved to begin with, and therefore became examples. But this usage of the passage does not illustrate that the believer cannot ‘lose’ his salvation, by taking for example these who ’went out’, who in fact never were. They went out because they were not of Him. This does not mean that the believer, who is of Him, cannot slip down a slippery slope from the narrow, high road, and not recover, as in this example:

“But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. “(Heb 10:39 )

This is such simple stuff to grasp. For it says, “We are not of them who draw back unto perdition.” Backsliders! Who else? These are not the antichrists “who went out from us because they were not of us.” These were believers being described in this passage! Let’s rearrange the sentence for clarity:

“We are of them who believe to the saving of the soul, not of those who [slip up and] draw back unto perdition,” (who are 'implied' here that they may 'lose out' by their lack of perserverance). How do you draw ‘back’ into perdition unless you were counted among the ones having found salvation from perdition? It doesn’t happen. If one was ‘in perdition’ in the first place, such as the antichrists described above, then they do not ‘draw back’ into perdition for they are already there. Instead, they ‘go out from us’.

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WildB
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Thoses that say you can loose this band of your salvation are part of the new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.

For it is the Holy Spirit that SEALs until the day of redemption.

Grieve Him Not~

Job.38
[31] Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

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That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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The Book Of Life

This term is used to refer to a heavenly record. The phrase appears seven times in the New Testament: Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12, 15; 21:27. The Christian understanding of the phrase, however, is rooted in the Old Testament. Passages such as Exodus 32:32; Psalm 87:6; Daniel 7:10; 12:1; and Malachi 3:16 imply or affirm a record kept by God. God is seen as keeping account of his people’s faithfulness and disobedience—and possibly that of other nations as well (for example, Psalm 87:6). 69:28 uses the phrase “book of the living.”

In Daniel 7:10; 12:1 references are linked with descriptions of final judgment and events of the end times. Names and deeds from the divine records are evidence set before a judge. Luke 10:20 and Hebrews 12:23 reflect similar thought. No concrete mention of a “book” is made, but a heavenly record is assumed. In Philippians 4:3 Paul uses “Book of Life” to encourage his fellow workers in a lively hope for the future.

“Book of Life” in the book of Revelation refers to a heavenly record with the names of persecuted Christians who remain faithful. It is used first in the letter to Sardis (Revelation 3:5) where the risen Lord, identified as “the Lamb” is keeper of the book (13:8; (21:7). If a person’s name is found in the book, admittance is granted to new Jerusalem (20:15; (21:527). If the person’s name is not written there, the judgment is final destruction. Absolute confidence in God’s care for his own is affirmed by the words “written before the foundation of the world” (13:8; 17:8).


(Tyndale iLumina)

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Kindgo
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Hello Eden,Born Again,
I think your post is nonsense, no scripture to prove your points.


Revelation 20:15 declares, “If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” The Book of Life is the set of names of those who will live with God forever in heaven. It is the roll of those who are saved. This Book of Life is also mentioned in Revelation 3:5; 20:12; and Philippians 4:3. The same book is also called the Lamb’s Book of Life because it contains the names of those who have been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus (Revelation 13:8; 21:27).

How do you get your name written in the Book of Life? Simply by repenting of sin and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior from sin (Philippians 4:3; Revelation 3:5). The moment you place your faith in Jesus as your Savior (John 3:16; Romans 10:9‑10), your name is written in the Book of Life, never to be erased (Revelation 3:5; Romans 8:37‑39). No true believer should doubt his eternal security in Christ (John 10:28-30).

The Great White Throne Judgment described in Revelation 20:11‑15 is a judgment for unbelievers. That passage makes it clear that no one at that judgment has his name in the Book of Life (Revelation 20:12‑14). Since their names are not in the Book of Life, their fate is sealed, their punishment is sure.

Some people point to Revelation 3:5 as “proof” that a person can lose his salvation. However, the promise of Revelation 3:5 is clearly that the Lord will not erase a name: “He who overcomes . . . I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life.” An overcomer is one who is victorious over the temptations, trials, and evils of this world—in other words, one who is redeemed. The saved are written in God’s registry and have the promise of eternal security.

Another passage over which confusion sometimes arises is Psalm 69:28: “Let them [David’s enemies] be blotted out of the book of the living.” This “book of the living” should not be confused with the Lamb’s Book of Life. David is referring to earthly, physical life, not eternal life in heaven. The same is true of the “book” mentioned in Exodus 32:32-33.

God keeps good records. He knows His own, and He has set the names of His children permanently in His book.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Kindgo
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Following are seven reasons from the Bible why a born-again Christian cannot lose his salvation.

Over 200 Scriptures are referenced, which are given at the end for ease of readability.

Anyone reading this who doubts the truth of this doctrine, is encouraged to look up and read the Scriptures for himself.

1. Eternal Life - The Bible says that ETERNAL life is a present possession [1]. If we could lose that life from God [2] then we never had ETERNAL life. Our life is Christ's life when we are saved [3] (see #4) and Christ cannot die again [4]. I John 5:13 says we can KNOW that we have ETERNAL life. God promised eternal life and God cannot lie [5].

2. Born Again as Sons of God - When we accept Christ we are born again of God [6], are passed from death unto life [7], and become a new creature [8], or creation [9], with all things new. We would have to become unborn to lose our salvation and born a third time to get saved again, which is not mentioned in the Bible. We also become a son of God [10] with a new nature, Christ's nature [11], and Christ cannot deny himself [11]. We get an incorruptible nature [12] and our will is changed [13]. John 10:27 says the believer WILL follow Christ.

After we are saved, God no longer deals with us as sinners but as sons [14]. He chastises but his chastisement is not payment for sin, it is child-training. God may chastise but the payment for ALL sins was made 2000 years ago on Calvary (see #3). Sometimes God may even chastise with death [15]. The fellowship with God may change but not the Father-son relationship. For example, a father tells his boy not to play with the father's delicate tools or they will break. The boy disobeys and breaks the tools. As chastisement the father smacks the boy but the smack does not pay for the tools; the father still must pay for the new tools and the boy is still his father's son. All of our sins were paid for on Calvary and ALL of them are forgiven when we are saved (see #3).

3. What Happens to a Believer's Sins - In God's eyes when we get saved we are perfect forever [16], justified (made as if we had never sinned [17]), and sanctified [18], as far as our salvation is concerned. We still live in a sinful body and still sin but these only affect our fellowship with the Father once we are saved (see #2). The Bible says that God WILL NOT impute (charge up) sin to a believer [19] and that includes ANY sin. If a justified person could go to hell he was never truly justified. If after being saved a sin or sins could cause one to lose his salvation then all of his sins were not paid for at Calvary and forgiven (washed away) when he trusted Christ and his blood [20], as the Bible says [21]. God forgives and forgets [22] every sin, including future sins (all our sins were future when Christ died for them), when we get saved.

4. What We Have "In" Jesus Christ - When we get saved we are placed into the body of Christ [23]. We become "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone" [24]. Our soul is "circumcised" from our flesh with a circumcision "made without hands" [25]. The Bible says that the body (church) will be presented without spot or blemish [26]. It cannot be without blemish if pieces have to be removed. Our position is settled: we are mystically seated in heaven already [27], a joint-heir with Christ (a joint heir cannot be disinherited [28]), and safe in Jesus' and God's hand [29] where we cannot be plucked out. The Holy Spirit places us IN Christ [23] just as we were IN Adam [30] before we were saved. IN Christ we are safe from condemnation [31], accepted [32], preserved forever [33], sanctified [34], alive forever [35], a new creature [36], perfect [37], righteous [38]; and we have liberty [39], all spiritual blessings [40], and an inheritance [41]. Our inheritance is reserved for us in heaven [42] (see #6), will not fade away [42], is incorruptible [42], and cannot be defiled [42].

Colossians 3:3 says our life is HID with Christ IN God; Satan has to get through God and then Christ to get to us, to cause us to be lost again. If Satan can overcome God and Christ to get one Christian, then he can get all of us because we are all sinners alike [43]. If Satan knew there was a way to make a Christian lose his salvation he is subtle enough that he could cause every Christian to lose his salvation [43.1]. For a believer to go to Hell, Christ and God [44] would have to go to Hell, because we have everything in standing and position that the Lord Jesus Christ has and we are "in" Him [45]. Our security is in a perfect person: Jesus Christ [45.1].

5. "God" Keeps Our Salvation - Throughout the Bible Jesus is called the Saviour [45.2]. Hebrews 7:25 says he saves to the uttermost, or he COMPLETELY saves. Eternal security is not a separate doctrine from salvation; if we are not saved forever then we were never saved at all because Christ saves us from ALL of our sins when we get saved (see #3); and gives us ETERNAL, EVERLASTING life (see #1). Christ came to save [46]. Once we are saved it is God's responsibility, not ours, to keep our salvation, because we never could. Just as a believer can never save himself, he can never keep himself. We are kept "by the power of God" [47], not our power, and "HE is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against THAT DAY" [48]. When we are born again God begins a work in us that He will perform until the day of Jesus Christ [49]. Jude 24 says that Christ, not us, will KEEP us from falling and present us faultless to God. We are confirmed unto the end [50]. Christ is the "author and finisher of our faith" [51]. "Whatever God does, it will be forever and nothing can be put to it or taken from it" [52]; and that includes our salvation, AMEN!

The security of our soul depends on Christ's righteousness, not our own [53] (see #4). If sinning in any way could cause one to lose his salvation, then Paul would have lost his, because AFTER he was saved he said he was the chief of sinners [54]. We get saved by God's grace [55], not by what we do [56], and our salvation remains by God's grace, not according to what WE do; we will be saved from wrath THROUGH him [57].

If we can do something to lose our salvation then God failed and our salvation was not only dependent upon God's grace, but also upon our behaviour - which is works! (Doing works in the Lord's name is not definite evidence of salvation, we must KNOW him as our personal saviour [58], see #8.) Salvation is a gift, not a wage [59]; it is obtained, not attained [60]. It never was deserved and never will be. If our safety is dependent upon our works then we are really saved by our works and must earn our salvation, which is a direct violation of Scripture and the truth of salvation by God's grace ONLY [61].

A person who believes that he must work to keep his salvation, instead of work because he HAS salvation, needs to make sure he is ONLY trusting the Saviour Jesus Christ to take him to heaven and not Jesus Christ plus his good works; he needs to understand how to be saved and what salvation really is [62].

6. Jesus is Faithful - Not only are we kept by God's power but we CANNOT come into condemnation [63]; we are NOT condemned [64]. Our intercessor is Jesus Christ [65] and he pleads our case when we are saved; that is why we can never be condemned again with the penalty of our already forgiven sins, or else Christ's intercession is not sufficient. If we lose our salvation we are condemned again and the Scriptures [66] are not true! Once we are saved and given to Christ [67] we cannot be lost again because John 6:39 says that of all that God gives Christ, Christ will lose nothing (and we are something).

We will NEVER die [68] but will live forever [69] (see #1). Christ will IN NO WISE (under ANY circumstances) cast out any that come to him [70]. All that get saved will NEVER perish [71] (never means NEVER). Christ will NEVER leave us or forsake us [72]. NOTHING (including ourselves) can separate us from the love of God IN Christ [73], and all believers are IN Christ (see #4).

7. The Holy Spirit, Our Seal - God gives the Holy Spirit to every believer when we get saved [75] as the earnest (down payment [76]) of his promise to take us to heaven and give us our inheritance [77] (see #4). We can only be unsaved if we do not have the Holy Spirit [78], which means we would have to lose the Holy Spirit to get lost again; but the Bible says we are SEALED by and with the Holy Spirit UNTIL the day of redemption [79]. The Holy Spirit can be quenched [80] or grieved [81] but not lost.

8. The Sinful Believer and the False Christian - We will not be perfect until we get to heaven, and we may be disobedient, but we cannot lose our salvation. We can still fall, but not so as to be eternally lost, for the Lord upholds us [82]. We are still tempted and tried [83], as Jesus was [84], but only for the purpose of strengthening us and making us more of what the Lord wants us to be. Our works may not stand the fiery test of the judgement [85] but our salvation will [86].

Not all who claim to be saved are. Not all church members are saved. If they are saved, they will eventually show a change and false professors of Christ eventually fall away [87]. Just make sure you are trusting ONLY Jesus [88] and HIS righteousness [89] to get you to heaven, not YOUR faith or a prayer or work(s), and you believe (trust [90]) to the "saving of the soul" [91].

9. Misapplication of Scripture / Rightly Dividing the Word - One should not twist Scripture [92] talking about the Old Testament saints, Tribulation saints, or the losing of a ministry, testimony, nation, or life and try to make it prove a sinner forgiven by the grace of God through Christ's blood can lose his salvation. The Word of God must be "rightly divided" [93] or it can be "wrested unto your own destruction" [94].

Scripture References
1. John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,51; 10:28

2. I John 5:11-12; Romans 6:23

3. Colossians 3:4

4. Romans 6:9-10; I John 1:2

5. I John 2:25; Tit 1:2; Numbers 23:19; John 3:14-18; Romans 6:23

6. John 1:13; 3:3-7; I Peter 1:23

7. John 5:24; 11:25

8. II Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15

9. Ephesians 2:10; 4:24

10. John 1:12-13; Romans 8:14-17; Galatians 3:26; I John 3:1-2

11. II Timothy 2:13; II Peter 1:4

12. I Peter 1:23; I John 3:9

13. Philippians 2:12-13

14. Hebrews 12:5-8

15. I Corinthians 5:5; 11:30

16. Hebrews 10:14

17. Romans 3:24-28; 5:1,9; Acts 13:39

18. I Corinthians 1:2; 6:11; II Thessalonians 2:13

19. Romans 4:8; 8:33; II Corinthians 5:19

20. Ephesians 1:7

21. John 1:29; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 2:13; I John 1:7,9; 2:12; 3:5; Revelation 1:5

22. Psalms 32:1; 103:12; Isaiah 1:18; 38:17; 43:25; Micah 7:18-19; Acts 13:38-39; 26:18; Colossians 2:13; Hebrews 8:12; 10:17; I John 1:7; 2:12

23. Romans 12:5; I Corinthians 12:13; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:21-22

24. Ephesians 5:30

25. Colossians 2:8-14

26. Ephesians 5:27

27. Ephesians 2:6

28. Romans 8:16-17

29. John 10:27-30

30. Romans 5:12

31. Romans 8:1-2

32. Ephesians 1:6

33. Jude 1; Psalms 37:28; II Timothy 4:18

34. I Corinthians 1:2

35. I Corinthians 15:22

36. II Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10

37. Colossians 1:28

38. II Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9

39. Romans 8:2; Galatians 2:4

40. Ephesians 1:3

41. Ephesians 1:11

42. I Peter 1:3-5; Ephesians 1:13-14; Acts 26:18

43. Romans 3:10-12,23; 14:23; James 4:17; I John 1:8-10

43.1. Isaiah 53:9, 11; 59:17; John 8:46; 18:38; II Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 1:9; 4:15; 7:26-28; 9:14; I Peter 1:19; 2:22; I John 3:5.

44. I Thessalonians 1:1

45. Romans 6:3; 8:1-2,11; 12:5; I Corinthians 1:30; II Corinthians 1:21; 5:17; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:6,10; Colossians 1:28; 2:7,10; I John 4:13; 5:20

45.1. I Peter 5:10

45.2. Acts 5:31; 13:23; Ephesians 5:23; Philippians 3:20; II Timothy 1:10; Titus 1:3-4; 2:13; 3:6; II Peter 1:1; I John 4:14

46. Luke 19:10; John 3:17; Acts 4:12; Titus 2:13-14

47. I Peter 1:3-5

48. II Timothy 1:12

49. Philippians 1:6

50. I Corinthians 1:8

51. Hebrews 12:2

52. Ecclesiastes 3:14

53. Romans 3:24-27; II Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9

54. I Timothy 1:15; Romans 7:21-25

55. Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6

56. Titus 3:5; Romans 4:5

57. Romans 5:9

58. Matthew 7:22-23

59. Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 5:18; 6:23

60. Hebrews 9:12

61. Romans 11:6; Galatians 2:21

62. John 3:3,18,36; 5:24; 6:28-29,47; 14:6; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; 10:9-10,13;

Galatians 3:22,26; Ephesians 2:8-9; I John 5:11-13; Revelation 22:17

63. John 5:24; Romans 8:1

64. John 3:18

65. Romans 8:33-34; I Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 4:15-16

66. John 3:18; 5:24

67. John 6:37

68. John 11:26

69. John 6:51

70. John 6:37

71. John 3:16; 10:27-30

72. Hebrews 13:5

73. Romans 8:35-39

75. John 7:38-39; Ephesians 1:12-13; I John 4:13

76. II Corinthians 1:22; 5:5

77. Ephesians 1:13-14

78. Romans 8:9

79. II Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:12-13; 4:30

80. I Thessalonians 5:19

81. Ephesians 4:30

82. Proverbs 24:16; Psalms 37:24-25; 145:14

83. I Corinthians 10:13; James 1:2-4; I Peter 1:6-7; 5:10; II Peter 2:9

84. Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 4:15

85. II Thessalonians 1:7-10; I Peter 4:12-13; II Peter 3:9-13

86. I Corinthians 3:13-15; 5:5

87. I John 2:19

88. John 14:6

89. I Corinthians 1:30; II Corinthians 5:21

90. Ephesians 1:12-14

91. Hebrews 10:38-39

92. Matthew 5:19,22; 7:13,21-23; 8:11-12; 12:32; 13:21; 24:13,48-51; 25:1-13,25-29,34,40-41,45-46; Mark 3:29-30; Acts 1:25; 2:38; I Corinthians 15:1-2; II Corinthians 13:5; Romans 11:16-24; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 3:6,14; 6:1-6; 9:28; 10:26-27; 12:14; James 5:20; Revelation 2:10; 3:5, 7; 12:17; 14:6-7,12; 22:14

93. II Timothy 2:15

94. II Peter 3:16

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Aaron
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Eden,

I take these passages quite literally. The death spoken of here is not death of the body but it is death nonetheless as far as God is concerned:

quote:
Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Here is our death.

Aaron

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WildB
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"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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Kindgo [thumbsup2]

I have not been able to find in any study Bible, any commentary, any Bible dictionary or encyclopedia, any Bible handbook, or any inspirational book, at least not in my collection, anything that says a Christian can lose his salvation. I really have looked. Everything says our salvation is secured at the moment we give our lives to Christ.

Those who say that OSAS teaches that we can do whatever we want, well, this is only true because what I want to do is love and serve Christ. And, those who say that OSAS teaches that we can do whatever we want have not bothered to actually read what we've posted.


Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation . (NKJV)

We feel condemned because Satan uses past guilt and present failures to make us question what Christ has done for us. Our assurance must be focused on Christ, not our performance.

Our own conscience reminds us of guilt.

Non-Christian friends will notice (and point out) our inconsistencies.

Past memories of how we lived can haunt us.

Personal dysfunctions such as shame, low self esteem, or compulsions will trip us up.

The perfection of the law will show how imperfect we are.

We can allow Christ’s perfect example to discourage our efforts rather than encourage our trust.

Unhealthy comparisons with other believers will make us feel inadequate.


“This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:19-20 NIV).

Often, we are like the criminal who hates his incarceration while at the same time denying that he finds any security in his cell. Then, beyond all expectations, the warden announces a pardon and unlocks the cell. As the door swings open, the prisoner meets the delight of freedom and a tinge of fear of the unknown. What will this new life be like? Many find a strange; comfort in the familiar state of condemnation. Christ invites us to leave the cell behind. Some rush out joyfully, some calmly and thoughtfully, and others leave the cell of their old life with painful slowness. Once outside, most of us experience, from time to time, a strange longing for the old familiar cell. We must remember that what may seem appealing was actually a filthy holding cell on death row.

Because we have been rescued by Christ (7:24-25), and are thus in Christ Jesus, we are not condemned. To be in Christ Jesus means to have put our faith in him, becoming a member of his body of believers. Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24 NIV). There can be no condemnation, for “we have been justified through faith” and “have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (5:2).

In the original manuscript, there was probably no break between Paul’s summation in 7:25 of the struggle between the two allegiances (two minds) within himself and the proclamation in 8:1 that in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation for our vacillations. We believers must never forget the reality of our rescue and our indebtedness to God’s grace in Christ. We can persevere in our daily struggles knowing that “if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself” (2 Timothy 2:13 NIV). Our need for the ongoing presence of the Holy Spirit is so clear at this point that some early manuscripts add , after Jesus, the phrase from verse 4, “who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.” But putting that phrase here completes the thought too quickly, an approach Paul seldom used.


(Life Application Bible Commentary: Romans)

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Hi, Kindgo, I liked your post. I have mostly believed that “OSAS” (“once saved always saved”) is not true, and I'll use a few parts of your post to make my point. You said
quote:
We are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father…" (1 Peter 1:1-2). God knew ahead of time who would call upon Him to be saved, and He recorded their names before the foundation of the world.

Some have taught that a person can be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost, etc.

That would mean that God would write down the name, erase it, then write it in, then erase it again-the Book of Life would be pretty messy. No, God doesn't make mistakes. God doesn't have an eraser on His pencil.

Okay, when you say that God would have to “write the name, erase the name, and rewrite the name again”, that implies that God writes the name of the believer into the book of life when that person first believes in Jesus for their sins.

And then, if that believer stopped believing in Jesus for their sins, God would have to erase his name, and if that person became a believer again later that Jesus DID die for his sins after all, then God would have to write his name in the book again, and as you say, that would make for a messy book of life.

However, Kindgo, I want to propose that God did NOT write the name when that person first believed, but that God waited instead for that person to die and then if that person died as a believer, then God writes that person’s name in the book of life.

Of course, God foreknew from the foundation of the world who would die in faith and so all those persons who died in faith were, neatly, written in the book of life.

Kindgo, you also said
quote:
What about those who appear to be Christians but then quit the faith? Were their names erased from the Book of Life?

John explained that as well, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

No, their names weren't erased. They never were believers in the first place, meaning their names were never written in the Book of Life.

I do think that in John’s day at the dawn of Christianity, there were many more Mosaic Judaizers who were not believers at all and who had infiltrated the Jewish Christian groups in order “to rein in the heretics”. It was not an easy and orderly transition from Moses to Jesus.

So let’s now fast forward to the 21st century. But, where are the Mosaic Judaizers in the 21st century? We have people who say and think that Jesus died for their sins, and we have people who say they do not believe that Jesus died for their sins.

Now, according to OSAS or “once saved, always saved”, the very first time that someone says, “I think that Jesus died for my sins” then that person’s name is written in the book of life and that name is never erased again, according to you, Kindgo.

I propose that OSAS people are using the wrong time when God writes the name in the book of life. God does not write the name when a person first believes, but God writes the name when a person dies in faith. And that makes a huge difference.

For yes, Kindgo, if God wrote in the name when a person first believed, and if that believing person then went to university and learned geology and carbon dating and about natural selection and sedimentation, the believing person one day said, “you know, I don’t believe that medieval Jesus stuff anymore, I think that science and evolution is the true answer”, then God has to erase that name again IF God wrote the name of that person in the book of life when that person first believed.

But if God writes the name of the believer in the book of life depending on whether the person died in the faith of Jesus, or not, then all these erasure problems are immediately solved. And by the way, that way God can also keep a very clean book of life, and not a messy one.

So what does the Bible say about this:

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that everyone of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

I therefore think that the Bible agrees with the principle that God does not write the name of the believing person in the book of life when the person first believes, but God writes the name of that person in the book of life at the end of the person’s life, and not when the person first believes.

OSAS people are looking at the wrong event to determine who will be saved and who will not be saved.

OSAS people are looking at when a person first believes to give them "lifelong" salvation, but God is looking at what a person believes at death to give them salvation. And those two "determining events" produce wholly different results.

Indeed, the entire OSAS debate, if I may call it that, is the result of thinking that God writes the name when a person first believes.

But there IS no OSAS debate when God writes the name at a person's death.

With love to you, Kindgo,
eden

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Michael Harrison
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This is a distraction from Romans eleven. But Revelations 3: 5 says that the one who overcometh will be clothed in white. That leaves out the one who doesn't. Rather than say that he who does not overcme will be blotted out (for it talkes about that in other places in scripture) it says with a positive spin that those who do, will be acknowledgd. What is it but that anyone else will not be??? How can anyone assume that it will be roses for the slacker in spite of 'everything'. Why, these people migkt as well as join those who are now saying that there is no hell.

Another thing: This argument keeps coming up about getting saved, then unsaves, and saved. Riddiculous. You get saved, and at the judgment He will cut you asunder. Look up that word in E-sword. That means that the person will be appointed his place with the unbelievers. This is verbatim as per the word in the gospels. The 'believer' who squanders, will forfeit and be classified with the hypocrites though he believed. Here is why scripture says to "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Aw naw. It doesn't mean that. That passage means that I am secure no matter what I do with my salvation. Why, I was saved before I was born. Whach you talking about?

I will tell you, there is one understanding that is His. All other understandings are doomed. And one cannot have a theory that is that blind to other verses in scripture and have hope. Something is wrong with it.

I am as saved as it gets. I do know it. I haved the confirmation within me. I also know that He will not override my free will should I reject Him.

And how do you know that the verse concerning them going out from us, applies to this very discussion? I'll come back to that.

Osas is as srange ss if a mormon came up with it. This passage of three five is as self explanitory as it comes in the bible. I see no way that someone can say "I'm ok if I do, I'm ok if I don't." For these people exactly were the admonishments given elsewhere in scripture. Not to say so would be as serious as not to preach to the lost.

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Kindgo
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Name Erased from Book of Life?


Question: Please explain Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life…"

Does this mean that my name can be blotted out of the book of life and that I can lose my salvation?

Answer:
Some people believe that this verse teaches that your name can be erased from the book of life. Notice that the verse doesn't say that a person's name can be blotted out of the book. It says, "I will not erase his name from the book of life." Rather than being fearful of being blotted out, this verse gives assurance that a believer's name cannot be erased.

Every city had a register which recorded each resident. If a person moved or died, his name was blotted out of the book. Jesus says, "You might get erased from that book, but you will never be erased from My book." This verse doesn't teach you can lose your salvation, but that you can't.

When were the names written in the book of life? Jesus told His disciples to "rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:20). Christ told them to REJOICE because their names were already recorded in heaven. They couldn't rejoice if they could be blotted out the next day.

Revelation 17:8 says, "And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast…" Why would God write in a person's name if He knew that He would have to blot it out?

Notice it doesn't say that their names were blotted out, but that their names were never written in. From when?

From the foundation of the world. Saved people's names were recorded at that time. "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…" (Eph. 1:4)

How can He choose us before we are even born? We are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father…" (1 Peter 1:1-2). God knew ahead of time who would call upon Him to be saved, and He recorded their names before the foundation of the world.

Some have taught that a person can be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost, etc.
[Confused]

That would mean that God would write down the name, then erase it, then write it in, then erase it-the Book of Life would be pretty messy. No, God doesn't make mistakes. God doesn't have an eraser on His pencil.

But doesn't Revelation 3:5 promise this only to those who "overcome"?

The apostle John, who wrote the book of Revelation, also wrote First John. He explained what it means to be an "overcomer" in 1 John 5:4: "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world."

Everyone who is born of God is an overcomer-and will not have his or her life erased from the Book of Life.

What about those who appear to be Christians but then quit the faith?

Were their names erased from the Book of Life?

John explained that as well. "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

No, their names weren't erased. They never were believers in the first place, meaning their names were never written in the Book of Life.


http://kentcrockett.com/biblestudies/name_erased.htm

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Michael Harrison
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If one sees what they want to see, and yet they were warned, their judgment will be worse! Scriptures verify this also.

Moreover, it can be read in the post given above, taken from scripture. It is irrefutible except to the darkened mind. It is direct and potent! It says to 'fear' Him. (and not only here does it say that.)

But "Perfect love casts out fear." (1 John) The word perfect is in this verse for a reason! If one's faith is perfect, then they are not under condemnation, therefore, they are not under fear, as in judgment. For their love towards Him is perfect. That does not mean by any stretch, osas. It means that it is the confidence of the resurrected life, which is above reproach, not the defeated life (which is supposed by some to be negated by His provision 2000 years and ten, ago).

As the cow chews the cud, that is a potent read above, as are so many. No interpretation of scripture can disallow, with impunity, such passages as I included there. One would be wise to read and consider.

I will repeat this verse from above:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: On them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom 11:22)

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Michael Harrison
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Sigh! Another incomplete quote! "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."(Rom 8:1 )

To walk after the Spirit is effected by the provision of the Holy Spirit - to rise above sin. Otherwise, there is condemnation! To walk after the Spirit is to abide in Him safe from sin.

Scripture does not say that His sacrifice for sin is 'final' in the sense that it negates sin such that one may disregard it as something that is inevitable, that one may therefore simply ignore the instances thereof. What kind of testimony is that? Moreover, to say that the sacrifice is sufficient is a misread of the scriptures. The sacrifice is sufficient if the Blood is appropiated, not if one is in denial!

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Kindgo
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"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to (what?) fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father."


Believers don't have to walk around in constant fear. We have respect for God and we revere Him, but we don't have to fear Him. Because we know He loves us.

John Chapter 13, where Jesus is dealing with Martha, Mary and Lazarus, all through that chapter, it isn't how much Lazarus and Mary loved Jesus, but what is it?

How much He loved them, this is what people have to realize.
It isn't dependent upon how much I love Him, although I certainly love Him. But you see, the thing that's important is that I(we) realize how much He loves me(us)! Enough to die and suffer for us. Now then, when we have that kind of a salvation, the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.

[youpi] [clap2] [clap2]

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Kindgo
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How can WE lose what is Jesus alone (gift that it is) to give?

His last words were "It is finished."

There is no more atonement for sin.

If it were so, then Jesus died in vain. When you accept that gift, accept the Holy Spirit, then it IS finsished.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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