quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Saved? Don't take it for granted.

---

Yes, what a shame Jesus was so vague...

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28)

Even John, through inspiration, wrote that saved men would still sin and that their Savior would cover that sin:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1)

If we sin after salvation, we lose our fellowship with God for a time, but not our relationship.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
If you are ashamed 'when He shall appear at His coming', are you sure that you will still have made the grade?

---

quote:

---

For those who believe salvation can be lost: Please provide chapter and verse in the Bible of anyone who was saved more than once.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
keifer. you can not be saved twice....no argument

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
but that does not make "Once Saved Always Saved" true...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
creation is part of precept upon precept ...

---

Well it certainly couldnt be line upon line being invisible.

Stop your sillyness,
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Yes, what a shame Jesus was so vague...

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:28)

"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." (Mat 11:12)

|I've heard it preached again and again that the Christian lays hold of the Kingdom by taking it by force. It is fingernails on the chalkboard, or a fork pulled between the teeth to hear this! (Shudder!) The keyword one is looking for here in order to determine the intent is the word violent. Violence is not an attribute of the King or the Kingdom, or the saint who would lay hold. The passage relates to those who scatter the saints. It relates to the communists and dictators who would crush the faith, were it possible. It is these to whom the verse about plucking them out of His hand refers.
No man may pluck them out of His hand, no communist, no butcher, but they can bring pressure to bear, and the free will, in the absence of faith, can be problematic for the tempted, or the persecuted. (Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.)

|Herein is the importance of the pep talk in scripture on 'overcoming'. For overcoming faith is what is needed by the believer, wherein according to the theory of oasas, overcoming faith is not necessary. For one believes that salvation is something accomplished 2000 years ago, and once one believes, they have 'it'. But salvation is not a thing. Salvation is in a relationship, without which, one will not even know the resurrection. Therefore if one will not 'abide' in Him (relationship), there may indeed be a cost.

|But! Let's let it be said that I do believe in oasas! He will not change! His offer stands. Herein however, is the importance of the verses referring to enduring to the end. We are to 'put our hand to the plow', and to 'finish the race'. We are to endure to the end, not as though we are meriting something, but rather - not forfeiting. For the believer will be tried. And in coming days, it will be more and more so. But our God will not retract salvation. Yet the believer can. (Herein is the verse wherein John the Baptist said that He will baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire, fire representing tribulation and persecution.)

|Man has a free will. It does not go away as long as he lives in the body. Neither will God overrule it. The beauty of our relationship with Him is, He will not overpower the believer and dominate them with His will. This is what relationship with Him is about, and it stands in stark contrast to other faiths, such as the Muslim faith. (Although there are so called Christians who would take it upon themselves to dominate you, claiming to do so in His name. This is of the evil one, so aviod any such pressure. Unfortunately, because God is so kind, countless numbers take advantage by not submitting to Him. But who does He want? He wants those who will. Blessed are they I tell you! Blessed are they.)

|He who hath ears to hear, let him. In the coming years this is going to become more and more important. You will remember that you read this.


~

quote:

---

If we sin after salvation, we lose our fellowship with God for a time, but not our relationship.

---

quote:

---

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
"If you are ashamed 'when He shall appear at His coming', are you sure that you will still have made the grade?" endquote:

That statement is the epitome of works salvation. You'll never make the grade Michael...NEVER. You're not good enough (Romans 3:23).


We are saved by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus (Ephesians 2:8-9) Michael, not by whether you think you 'made the grade'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB , I never jest or be silly concerning the eternal souls of men and women...

and as long as Yahweh gives me breath, I will expose the damnable teachings of "Once Saved Always Saved"...

There is "Security For The Believer"....
the person who is abiding in Yahshua....

there is no Surety of Salvation for the unrepentant backslider ... the backslider only has the hope of forgiveness if he repents before his last breath...

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is that word if again...

I pray more people pay attention to that little word, it is all through the scriptures.

---

Man! where did that come from. I said your Twisting of scripture is sillyness.

And any that can RIGHTFULLY divided the word knows that Once Sealed Always Sealed untill the day of redemtion.

Eph.4

[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Again~ Stop your sillyness.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Daniel,

The living gift of eternal life that you get from God , (right here, right now in this life), for believing in Jesus Christ through faith....is the Holy Spirit. That is what makes us saved...that is specifically 'how' HE saves us. Titus 3:5
HE promises us that His Holy Spirit (our salvation) will never leave our bodies.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely[ 7:25 Or forever] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them
John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit,

Romans 11:29
for God's gifts are irrevocable
Romans 6:23
….. the gift of God is eternal life
John 14:27
I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Esp 2:8-9: Ye are saved by grace alone and not of your works. it is a gift of God lest any man should boost of his works.

if we had to work to keep our salvation it wouldn't be a gift like this verse tells us it is. instead it would be a wager
couple more:

Phillipians 1:6

...being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ...

Romans 8:39

...not height nor depth nor any other created thing shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-30

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."
"And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world . . . Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." - 1 John 5:3-5

"He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life . . ." - Revelation 3:5
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
becauseHElives

quote:

---

(And Carol where do you stand , are you for , against or in the middle)

---

Christ bought us for a price, His own precious blood. We are made new creations, turned from slaves of sin to slaves of righteousness. In short, salvation means He owns us. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is proof of His ownership. So no, we can't "lose our salvation".

Kindgo

The concept of sealing includes the ideas of ownership, authority, responsibility, and, above all, security. Sealing assures us of the security of God’s promises to us, especially our salvation. We can be certain (a) that He possesses us, (b) that we have a secure salvation sealed by and with the Spirit, and (c) that He purposes to keep us to the day of our full redemption.


http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005531
 

---

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Kindgo,
I notice that you neither confirm nor deny that the scriptures do speak of "falling away" or "departing from the faith". It appears that perhaps you just dont believe that it is a possibility for you yourself.

Your assurance I see comes from a confidence in Jesus as the "intercessor to God". Jesus( as our intercessor) did not come without bringing warnings to us all. (Ignorance aside) Do you believe that we can ignore these warnings and still expect to be saved in the day of the Lord?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 

quote:

---

Do you believe that we can ignore these warnings and still expect to be saved in the day of the Lord?

---

Yes


“Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”
John 3:7

Daniel,
Have you ever known anyone who was physically born twice?

Have you ever known someone who was spiritually born twice?

Nowhere in the Bible will you find a passage that describes anyone being saved twice.

Once you come into the family, you’re in the family.

Now there were times when I disappointed my parents. There were times when my father had to chastise me, but I am a Lancaster. I will be a Lancaster for all eternity. It’s the same way with your spiritual life. Once a born again Christian, always and foeever a born again Christian.

When you are born into the family of God, your name is written in the Lamb’s book of life. It is fixed. It is done.
 

---

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Kindgo,
I am a bit surprised that you answered my question so definitively. I have to admit that I did not expect that. Though I do not agree with you, I do not wish to begin a huge debate over this issue. You answered my question and that is all I was really looking for.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Okay Daniel now are you going to answer my questions?


 

---

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Ask away.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Can A Christian Loose Salvation?

Can A Christian Loose Salvation? Many Mainstream fundamentalist say No!

They say its impossible. A person can no more “work” his way OUT of Salvation, they say, then he can “work” his way into Salvation. But what does the Bible say?

This doctrine of “eternal security” (commonly known as “once saved always saved”) is believed by most fundamentalist, even though a small minority of them do not. But this doctrine seems to be one of the essentials of Protestant Christianity.

They claim that all you have to do is accept Jesus and you are saved. That’s it! No matter what you do from that time on, it does not matter what you do, there is no way you can lose salvation. Easier than buying a pair of shoes or going to college, salvation is the easiest thing to obtain. Salvation then, using this kind of thinking is no longer a MATTER OF CHOICE! But a choice we do have. God has said, “…I have set before
you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deut 30:19).

We are free moral agents. If we are once saved, yet then change our minds and do not want to obey God anymore, and go back into the world, does that mean I am still saved? By my own choice I reject God, want nothing to do with him, then at the resurrection when I stand before the judgment seat of Christ, will God accept me anyways? Is that the way it works? Why does the Bible stress then righteousness, and good deeds?

Why did Jesus say, “If thou are to enter into life, KEEP THE
COMMANDMENTS” (Matthew 19:17)?

And Paul as well, said, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision
is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God” (1 Corinthians 7:19)?

Is this doctrine of eternal security valid when put to the test in the scriptures?

We will examine that later, but let me first quote what
Wilson Ewin says about this doctrine which is believed by Millions, “…the person who places his faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his blood shed at Calvary is eternally secure. He can never lose His salvation. Nor breaking God’s or man’s Laws or commandments can nullify that status” (There is Therefore Now No Commandment, emphasis added).

Mr. Ewin did not, when he made this statement take into account the scripture, “the wages of Sin is DEATH” (Romans 6:23).

And don’t these fire and brimstone preachers preach that all sinners go to hell? “Ah” they say, “Those scriptures are for the unconverted, not the Christian?”

Really! Is that what your Bible says
about the converted?

God Has Given Man a Choice

Does God force people to love him? Of course he does not! God will not force you or me to obey him.

If he wanted robots to love him he would of created them. God put into man a human spirit, with free will. God gave us the choice to love and obey, or to hate and disobey.

Yes it’s God’s will to call people. And its God’s will to save people, but it’s your will to accept his will or reject his will.

When God called Israel out of Egypt, as God said, “Out of Egypt I called my son” (Hosea 12:1). Moses went up into the mountain and God gave him the 10 Commandments to give to Israel. Moses presented the will of God to them, and to make a covenant, with Israel. A Covenant is an agreement between to parties.

Holman’s Bible Dictionary writes under “Covenant,” “A pact, treaty, alliance, or agreement between two parties of equal or of unequal authority. The covenant or testament is a central, unifying theme in Scripture, God’s covenants with individuals and the nation Israel finding final fulfillment in the new covenant in Christ Jesus. God’s covenants can be understood by humans because they are modeled on human
covenants or treaties” (emphasis added) God offered and Israel HAD TO ACCEPT IT OR REJECT IT!

Israel accepted as it says in Exodus 24:3, “And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.”

In the New Testament it’s the same thing. God calls us out of the world by his grace, for it is the “goodness [“gracious” Gk. “chrestos” Strong’s #5543-44] of God that leads us to repentance” (Rom 2:14). He presents to us his covenant, the Renewed and everlasting Covenant, the same Covenant he presented to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Israel, and we have to ACCEPT IT, OR REJECT IT!

If we accept the Covenant, we become “chosen” of God, his people.
God says that he would write the law in our hearts. In Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8 God says, “I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people” (v.33).

How is that done? By the Holy Spirit of God. Romans 8:4 says, “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (vv.4, 9). When do we receive the Holy Spirit? At Baptism, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38).

At baptism, when we are washed of our sins, and bury the old man, and live in newness of life, we, when the minister lay’s on hands and we receive the Holy Spirit, enter and
accept the Covenant that God offers us. We say, like what Israel said, “All that the lord has said we will do.”

The New Covenant when we accept it, is sprinkled with the blood of Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament, Moses said in Exodus 24, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.” (v.8). Jesus says the same thing in the gospels, but this time it was his blood that was shed for the remission of sins.
Matthew 26, “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (v.28).

Now, if we willfully by our own choice accept the covenant and are saved by the grace of God when he calls us and presents to us his covenant.

Can we willfully fall from grace and lose Salvation?

Lose Salvation through Willful Sin

The writer of the book of Hebrews said, “For if we sin willfully, after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries”(Hebrews 10:26).

Now first of all, this does not mean people who are trying to overcome and struggle with sins and temptations. That is an overcoming sinner. And those that do sin, because they cannot overcome, 1 John says, “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we
have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin…If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1:7, 9). John was speaking of himself and fellow Christians.

He included himself in those statements saying “us” and “we.”

Now the context in Hebrews is “if we sin willfully.” Meaning, not overcoming, but willfully going back into the world and partaking in the world, going back to the old life, willfully in UNBELIEF! Without repentance! If the sinner continues in this path, and does not repent, then when Christ comes, after the sinner dies, (or is still alive when he comes), and is resurrected, then he is subject to the lake of Fire!

The Apostle Paul clearly told the church of God that sins need to be repented of. 2 Corinthians 12:20-21 says, “For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:

“And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.” Sin must be repented of. But if the person does not have belief anymore will he repent? Indeed he will not, but all hope is not lost. God promises the sinner that he will saved the sinner. God promised he would not forsake us, nor leave us, the only way to lose it, is, if the sinner forsakes God.

Yes the Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance, but that is God’s will, the Christian must be willing to subject themselves to God’s will as well. IT’S A COVENANT RELATIONSHIP! God will help, but the Bible warns, “Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near” (Isaiah 55:6).

This shows that there will be a time when God will not be found-a time when there will be no opportunity to repent. How does that happen? By the hardening of the heart of the Christian. Notice what Jeremiah wrote, “Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD:” (29:12-14).

When we seek God with an open and repentant heart, he will be found. But if we do not, and reject, and do not believe in our hearts anymore, God will not be found because our hearts are not seeking him!

We must remember God searches the hearts of men. “I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:” (Rev 2:23). When the heart is hard, and there is no more room to repent, God judges. Like Saul in the book of Samuel. Because his heart was hardened after he received the Holy Spirit, God spoke no more to him, and took the Kingdom of Israel away from him, and gave it to a man after his own heart, David. God was not
found when Saul looked for him. “…Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not,” (1 Samuel 28:6). He did not answer because Saul’s heart was hardened. He was just looking for a way out of his troubles; he had no intention of repenting.

Now fundamentalists try to explain the passage above in Hebrews, which Paul was not speaking of truly converted Christians. But, after receiving the knowledge of the truth, they still do not accept the substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But the context to whom Paul was speaking is very clear. The “we” in chapter 10 verse 26 includes both the writer and the readers of the epistle.

Notice the preceding verses: “Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. “Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: “ Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.”(Heb 10:22-25).

The writer clearly does not have unconverted people in view! He is speaking to people who have already experienced baptism and spiritual cleansing. He speaking to the people of faith to hold on to the faith tenaciously that was once delivered. To God’s New Testament Church!

Notice the author’s use of “us” and related terms: “Let Us draw near…Let us hold fast…let us consider one another…Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves [Sabbath assembly]. Then after all this he says, “For if we [God’s Church] sin willfully…there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.” Can there be any doubt that the writer is speaking to truly converted Christians? None whatsoever! The context will allow for no other
conclusion.

Now some however say, that the writer said, “if” we sin willfully. They reason that it’s a mere hypothesis, and that it would never really happen to the Christian. Nonsense!

What’s the point of saying it, if it was a
mere hypothesis?

There are more scriptures that show a Christian can lose salvation.

“He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
“Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:28, 29)

. Notice it’s the “sanctified” person he is speaking to. The one set apart forgiven. The one in the COVENANT with God, with the Holy Spirit. Clearly a member of God’s church.
To “trodden down” the Son of God means “that people tread on what they despise and contemn.” (Barnes Notes). God gives us a choice, to love or hate him. These are people who willfully turn from God in unbelief and hate God, these are the ones subject to death for all eternity in the lake of fire unless they repent.

In Hebrews 3 we see the author using the experience of Israel in the Exodus and using it as an example of our pilgrimage here are earth. The “rest” is likened unto the rest we will have with Jesus in the Kingdom of God. The Promise land is a type of the Kingdom, our inheritance. The wilderness is a type of this life in the wilderness of this world.

Notice what he says, “Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day
of temptation in the wilderness: “When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. “Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. “So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. “But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
“For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; “While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. “For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. “But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? “And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
“So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief” (Hebrews 3:8-19).

Their choice to reject God, and sin in his sight, by the hardening of their hearts through sin caused them not to inherit the Promise land. They departed from God. The author warned that what happen to them can happen to us if we do the same thing they did during the time of Moses. The time of the Exodus are “ensamples: and they are written
for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11).

Hebrews 6 shows again willing apostasy from the faith and back into the world, rejecting God, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, “And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, “If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: “But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The apostle Paul is saying here that those who have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in
them, “if they fall away,” they must “repent” and “renew” them again. This does not mean that they should go through the baptismal waters again, and receive the Holy Spirit.

No, they are already in the Covenant with God. Like Israel of Old, God sent prophets to them to repent, and return to him. God was not going to write the 10 Commandments on stone once again. What it means is for “ a renewing of the exercise of the grace of repentance and to be renewed ‘again’’’ (John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible). To Go Back into the grace that God has giving you, the imputing of the righteousness that God gave you through his Holy Spirit.

Another example given by The Apostle Paul is in Romans. He was speaking of the Olive Tree, as a symbol of Israel. He spoke of the branches being “cut off” and warned the church that the same can happen to believers if they go into “unbelief,” “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear:
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
“Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:20-23).

We must continue in the “goodness” of God. Continue in the law of God, which is righteousness. God’s law is Faith, and breaking it willingly shows that you do not have faith, your unbelief will cause you to lose salvation.

Again, Jesus uses the example of the vine in the Gospel of John. Jesus said, “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. “Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
“Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned” (John 15:1-6).

The Christian must abide in Jesus Christ. “Christ in You.” We must have faith in Jesus Christ with the “Righteousness” he “imputed” to us by the Holy Spirit. That first Commandment in God’s righteousness is, “I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:2-3).

What is God saying here?

He is basically saying to have faith, believe in your Savior Yahweh. And Jesus Christ is the YAHWEH of the OLD TESTAMENT! Notice other scriptures that is tied with the first commandment. “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.” (Hosea 13;4).

God himself quotes the first commandment and says he is the Saviour. The first commandment basically says to believe on your saviour and not ON ANY OTHER GOD’S!
In Deuteronomy 32, God shows that the first two commandments are commandments of faith! In this chapter he speaks of Israel going into idolatry, and calls them “children in whom is no faith” (v.20). The first two commandments are commandments of faith, in which which we must have faith in our saviour Jesus Christ.

If we do not, and break these two commands willingly going back into the world, we are then not “abiding” in Jesus Christ our saviour, and therefore if we do not repent, Jesus says we are cast into the “fire” and are “burned.” Why? Because we did not produce “fruits.” These fruits are the fruits of “righteousness” (see Philippians 1:11). And what is righteousness? “all thy commandments are righteousness” (Psalm 119:172).

In the book of Revelation, the church of Ephesus was on the verge of doing just that, they have “left thy first love” (Rev 2:4), and Jesus told them to “repent, and do the first works;” (v.5)

The Love of God is to keep his commandments, 1 John 5:3. They were breaking the first Commandment in the Law, to love God with all your heart. Jesus told them to do the “first works,” which was to keep that first commandment in the law of God.

The book of James shows the same theme throughout the Bible, that the Christian must stay in the faith or, without repentance suffer the death penalty, for the “wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23).

He writes, “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
“Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20). The repentance of the sinner saved him from suffering the death of Gahenna fire! Repentance is needed, of coming back into the faith and obedience of God, with your whole heart and mind, and being, God through his grace will forgive and cleanse you through the blood of Jesus Christ.

Now, one last scripture out of the letter of Peter that makes very clear, what happens to the believers if he goes back into the world and does not repent of his sins. Peter writes, “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. “But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire” (2 Peter 2:20-22)

This scripture speaks volumes! Peter says, after escaping the pollutions of this world, meaning after God has saved you from your sins, and you become “entangled” therein once again, meaning, “the pollutions of the world, in worldly lusts, which are as gins, pits and snares:” (Gill’s). Again, not an overcoming sinner, but
going right back into the pit, into which God saved you out of without repentance!
Now we are “escaped” “through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” Peter says. The word “Knowledge” in the Greek is “epignosis” and it means, “From G1921; recognition, that is, (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement: - (ac-) knowledge (-ing, -ment).” (Strong’s # 1922).

This word comes from the Strong’s 1921 number word, “epiginosko” which means, “From G1909 and G1097; to know upon some mark, that is, recognise; by implication to become fully acquainted with, to acknowledge: - (ac-, have, take) know (-ledge, well), perceive.” (Strong’s # 1921). The Strong’s number 1097 “ginosko” “to know” is used, in 1 John 2:3 that tells us how we know, acknowledge, and recognize God, “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” To Know Jesus
Christ is to keep his Commandments. This is the faith that we must have. Keeping the Commandments of God is showing and demonstrating our faith in God. As James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works. “Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2;18-20).

The devils believes in God BUT TREMBLES because he does not obey, so his FAITH IS DEAD! Keeping the law of God shows your faith is alive and you believe in God by obeying what he says, anything less is a dead faith!

So the apostle Peter is saying in that scripture that we escaped out of the world through the knowledge of God, by obeying him, because he gave us the Holy Spirit, see Romans 8:4, then “entangle” ourselves once again, and “overcome” by them meaning “conquered” (Good News Bible), by sin, the “latter end is worse
with them than the beginning.” Or, “their last condition is worse than their former one” (International Standard Version). The first condition was subject to the wrath of God, being under the law, but God was willing to give them grace, just like the Christian now.

But those who have received the grace, and have rejected it, going back into the world and sinning in their old state, the latter end is worse, because they will be burnt up, and there is NO MORE RESURRECTION! THEIR CHANCE IS OVER!

Notice what Peter says in the next verse, “”For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

Now “all thy commandments are righteousness” (Psalm 119:172). And the “the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4). So it was better not to receive the way of God, his law, then to have known it, and then turn back to sin, for “sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4). This is what Peter is saying when he said, that they have “turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.” It is when we receive the Holy Spirit, that God
“imputes” to us HIS righteousness, the faith in our Saviour Jesus Christ. We turn from that, we have no faith.

This Holy Commandment is the first commandment in the Law of God to believe on your Saviour, Yahweh, who is Jesus Christ! Welsley writes, “The commandment - The whole law of God, once not only delivered to their ears, but written in their hearts.” (Explanatory Notes on Whole Bible).

Clarkes Commentary says, “The whole religion of Christ is contained in this one commandment, ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength; [Deuteronomy 6:5] and thy neighbor as thyself. [Leviticus 19:18]’ He who obeys this great commandment, and this by the grace of Christ is possible to every man, is saved from sinning either against his God or
against his neighbor. Nothing less than this does the religion of Christ require.”

Thayers Definition of Commandment writes which Commandment it actually is:
“1) an order, command, charge, precept, injunction
1a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office
2) a commandment
2a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done
2a1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood
2a2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition” (emphasis added).

The Apostle Peter Makes clear how one can lose one’s salvation, by as Jesus said, by leaving, “thy first love.” (Revelation 2:4). The Love of God, which is keeping his Commandments. The Love of God must be in us, and if we “leave” that first love, Jesus says, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of
his place, except thou repent.” (Rev 2:5). Jesus tells us to repent and do the first works, the works of God, that work that is working in us, by the Holy Spirit, of faith in our Saviour by keeping the Commandments of God.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
None of the scriptures used for oasas say what they are interpreted to say. They say that as long as one trusts, everything will be ok to that end. Trust implies faith. It is not works. But even God cannot help the one who fails to trust Him. It is a key ingredient necessary for salvation to work.

Ever met anybody who was saved who said that they didn't trust Him to save them? For example, imagine someone saying, "I prayed the sinners prayer, and I got saved. However, I don't trust God to take me all the way." Well! In fact, this would be the confession of a 'works' salvation type of individual. Somebody saying this would likely feel that their input (effort, not faith) would have something to do with the final result. But it illustrates the point. This type person would trust in himself, which we all know would be futile. For without trusting God, we cannot reach that other shore (and I suppose that that is what those people think osas is). But clearly, this person is not trusting in God, but himself. therefore we conclude that God will not alter this man's will by coercion, and therefore, he will not be saved. His will is not submitted to the Saver, and the Saver will not alter it, but give him the opportunity to repent, He will, rather!

So, you say to me, "Ahah! He wasn't saved in the first place," your finger pointing in my face. Well, if Jesus came into this person’s heart by faith, he is saved. If he dies right then, it will be absent from body, and present in heaven for this one.

So then you say, "Well then, he is saved no matter what!" I say, no! If he trusts in himself from there on out, he might not be. If he supposes that he can live like the devil, it would be wrong for him to take it for granted that he would be met with a warm welcome on the judgment day. If you don't believe this, do you want to try it? Live like the devil and tell yourself that it is ok, you are saved. But don't say that others didn't warn ya! For if it is ok, then you can get away with it.

But none of the passages that people use for oasas mean what they seem to mean to those who claim them for; once done, always done. Free will, and the ability to fail to trust God removes that possibility from what they are interpreted to mean. They only work if one trusts, and believes. It’s a participation thing.

Keep in mind, going back to the virgins and their oil lamps, that, the oil has a double meaning. It represents the Holy Spirit - that we know. but we don't take into account that it also means LIGHT! Without the oil, they had no light! So when we say "Grieve not the Holy Spirit whereby ye are sealed," do we think that when we do grieve Him, that that He sticks around and fills us to full measure? No! We shut out the light when we grieve Him. We put a bushel over the candle. We snuff out the light. We hide in the dark.

He will not quinch a smoking flax, but it also says that He will not stive with man forever. There is a point where He will not hold out His hand any longer if one resists His will. His offer is there, but it can become distant.

We get to participate. We do not initiate! We do have something to do with our salvation. We perform the repentance of believing! Literally! That means to turn around. That means to accept. That is a positive action, without which, we cannot be saved. Yet some act like salvation is something that He accomplished for us 2009 years ago, and now we have it automatically and without revocation!?!?! It is not so. You do participate in order for this to become effective, or it doesn't even happen. There is a point of decision for every man in coming to the Lord. Therefore, you participate also in order for salvation to become final, not as though this is works. It is the same participation that involved you with His grace in the first place. Therefore HE says, whoever overcomes, or makes it to the end will He give to abide with Him for eternity, because they participated to the end.

So, if one does not participate, the light goes out. It may just be a loss of reward up to a point, but if they wax cold, it is the loss of The Reward.
 

---

Posted by GrandmaPeg (Member # 6950) on :
 
I may have posted this on a previous "osas" topic many months ago. But thought it could still prove useful now. Below is the text from a brochure in our church. Take from it what you will.

----------

The New Testament was written in the common Greek language of the day, used by everyday people. One of the more interesting aspects of the language is the perfect-tense verb, describing an act that was brought to completion and has abiding, permanent results. The following verses, used in biblical context, emphasize security of the believer's salvation based on this perfect-tense verb.


(1) EPHESIANS 2:5, 8: “... by grace you have been SAVED.”

The verb "sozo" means “to keep safe and sound; to rescue from danger.” Believers have been saved in time past, with the abiding result that their salvation persists through the present time. Due to God’s free gift of grace, at the moment you believed in Christ, your salvation from sin and eternal death is permanent.

(2) ACTS 26:18, “... those who have been SANCTIFIED by faith in Me …”

The verb "hagiadzo" is translated as “sanctify,” with the adjective and noun being “holy” and “saint.” It means “to be set apart to God.” Believers have been cleansed of sin, separated from the world, with the abiding result that they always belong to God. You became a saint at the moment of salvation, and your position with God is permanent.

(3) 1 PETER 1:23, “You have been BORN AGAIN ... through the living and enduring word of God.”

The verb "anagennao" means “to produce again; to be born again, anew.” Believers are born again with the abiding result that they are continually new persons in Christ. At the moment of salvation, your new life is eternal because it was given by the eternal God through His eternal word. Your position as a born-again believer is permanent.

(4) JOHN 5:24, “... has PASSED out of death into life.”

The verb "metabaino" means “to change one’s dwelling; to move from one place to another.” Believers were transferred from death to life, with the abiding result that they will always have eternal life. This transition is made upon your belief in the Lord Jesus. Your eternal life is permanent.

(5) LUKE 10:20, “Rejoice that your names are RECORDED in heaven.”

The verb "grapho" means “to write; to register in a book.” Believers’ names are written in heaven with the abiding result that they are on permanent record. Believers are enrolled as citizens of heaven even while on earth. Your name is written in the Lamb’s book of life, and it will never be erased. It is permanent.

(6) ROMANS 6:7, “... he who has died is FREED from sin.”

The verb "dikaioo" means “to declare a person just or righteous; acquitted.” The sinners who died were made free with the abiding result that they stand in the position of permanent freedom from the sinful nature. Sin no longer has the legal right to force its mastery and control on a believer. Your justification, freedom from sin, is permanent.

(7) ROMANS 5:2, “... through Whom we also have OBTAINED our introduction by faith into this grace in which we STAND.”

The verb "exo" means “to possess or hold”; the verb "histemi" means “to place; make firm.” At salvation, believers obtained access to God and a firm footing through Jesus Christ to full salvation of God, with the abiding result that they will always have this access and firm footing. Your access to God, and your firm standing in His grace, are permanent.

(8) HEBREWS 10:14, “For by one offering, He has PERFECTED for all time those who are sanctified.”

The verb "teleioo" means “to make perfect; accomplish.” At salvation, believers were perfected with the abiding result that they are perfected forever. They are new creations whom God sees as holy. Christ’s sacrifice secured your complete and final salvation. Because of His sacrifice, your salvation is permanent.

(9) HEBREWS 3:14, “We have BECOME partakers of Christ if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.”

The verb "ginomai" means “to become; to come into existence.” Believers became partakers of Christ, with the abiding result that they will always be in a permanent relationship with Him. The possession of your salvation is evidenced by your continuation of faith. Your union with Christ is permanent.

(10) JUDE 1:1, “To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and KEPT for Jesus Christ.”

The verb "tereo" means “to take care of; to guard.” Believers of Jesus Christ, from the moment of salvation, have been guarded with the abiding result that they are in a permanent state of being carefully watched. God is keeping the saints so that they might continue to be forever the possession of the Lord Jesus. Your eternal life, secured by God for Jesus Christ, is permanent.

(11) 1 JOHN 4:13, “By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has GIVEN us of His Spirit.”

The verb "didomi" means “to give, distribute, supply, or bestow.” At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit was given to the saints, with the abiding result that He is a permanent gift. This is proof of our fellowship with God. It is one of the clearest evidences that we are the children of God. He has lodged the image and fruit of His Spirit in our hearts. Your salvation is secure because the gift of the Spirit is permanent.

(12) 2 THESSALONIANS 2:13, “... brethren, BELOVED of the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit.”

The verb "agapao" means “to love.” It is a love of preciousness, esteem, and of prizing. Believers have been loved with an absolute love with the abiding result that it is a permanent attitude on His part. Christ is the Beloved of the Father. Because God the Father has always loved God the Son, believers are accepted in Christ, and are also beloved of God. The divine order is this: God the Father elects the sinner to salvation, God the Spirit brings him to the act of faith, and God the Son cleanses him from sin. Your place as a beloved child of God is permanent.

(13) JOHN 10:29, “My Father, who has GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

The verb "didomi" means “to give, distribute, supply, or bestow.” The elect were given to Christ by God, with the result that they remain eternally in His care. They were given to the Son as a trust to be managed by Him, and therefore, God will still look after them. Jesus had experienced the power of His Father upholding and strengthening Him, and there-fore puts all His sheep into His hand too. Your salvation is secure because God's power to keep you is permanent.
 

---

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Michael, I like what you posted. Let me ask a question.

In Rev 3, reading about the dead church, we read that there are a "few names" that have not defiled their garments and Yeshua says they are "worthy". Then He goes on to say that those who overcome "shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not BLOT out his name from the Book of Life;"

My question is this. Can Yeshua Blot someones name out of that Book of Life?

Then I read Luke 13:22

And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there FEW who ARE Saved?"
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
According to all you who support the “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine there is no reason to live a separate and holy life after being born again.

Even though a holy and separate life is what Yahshua died that those who receive His “Grace” could live?

According to the perverted antichrist doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” all any believer can lose is their rewards!

That is a sick mentality to start with…

The view of “Once Saved Always Saved” is all that is done for the Kingdom is for the individuals benefit.

Them getting to heaven
Them getting rewards

Salvation was brought into existence so Yahweh could have a people that He could use to judge the World by and so that Yahshua could have a Bride.

Salvation is all about Yahweh and His Kingdom …

Not a “fire insurance policy” for individual who don’t want to go to Hell.

Not an award ceremony for the saved…

For all you who think on the lines of loss of reward, instead of loss of eternal life, one day you are going to be severely shocked…

Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Escape what?

Hebrews 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Who obey Him!

Who obey Him?


Hebrews 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

You “once saved always saved” believers had better start listening to the Spirit of Yahweh as you read the scriptures…
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
We cannot lose our salvation, once it is obtained. Jesus tells us that no one can snatch us out of His hand; I would have to include ourselves in that "no one."

But more than that, Philippians 1:6 says, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

This places the burden of carrying through our sanctification directly on God, and it states that He will complete it.

We know God never goes back on His word and He always completes what He begins.

A Christian (one that has truly given their life to Christ) that walks into sin will find no peace or rest until they once again find it in God.


This is from 1 Cor. 3. "If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:14-15).

Isn't it just amazing we would receive rewards at all after the price He had to pay? It makes me want to cry. So, not only does God continue to cleanse us as we confess (1 John 1:9), He rewards us for the good works He has given us the privilege to walk in.

I did a little study on rewards.

Rewards From Our KING

Those who enter the kingdom will have won “stephanos crowns” at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The crowns are earned rewards and do not add to nor take away from one’s spiritual salvation. Salvation of a person’s spirit through faith in Jesus Christ can never be lost. However, crowns can be lost and the Scriptures attest to this fact.

The Crown of Life
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The crown of life is awarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ to those Christians who are tried with temptation and remain “faithful” because of their love for Him. They must “hold fast” to what they have.

The Incorruptible Crown
1 Cor 9:24-27 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The incorruptible crown is awarded on the basis of winning a spiritual race that is marked out by God for each believer. It is a race in which we discipline our bodies daily in order to bring it into subjection to the Holy Spirit.

The Crown of Righteousness
2 Tim 4:7-8 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

The crown of righteousness is awarded to those who keep the faith through a “fight” until the end of their race and this crown is also for those who love His appearing.

The Crown of Rejoicing
1 Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
Phil 4:1-3 Therefore, my brethren, dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

The crown of rejoicing is awarded to those who have other souls to present to the Lord at His coming.

The Crown of Glory
1 Pet 5:1-4 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

The crown of glory is awarded to those who feed the flock and are examples to the flock.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
25 REASONS YOU CANNOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION

ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL. It is NOT “life until you sin again.” Jesus promised us “eternal life” and it is ridiculous to think that He didn’t mean by that, that He was giving us a life that would never end. Eternal life begins when we believe (John 5:24).

SALVATION IS A “BY BIRTH” SITUATION. A birth cannot be undone or reversed. “Once born, always born.” Jesus did not teach a man must be born again and again and perhaps even yet again. We don’t have a second opportunity to be born again physically, nor do we have or even need a second opportunity to be born again spiritually once we have received our spiritual birth.

SALVATION (ETERNAL LIFE) IS A FREE GIFT. It is not something that is earned or can be deserved. Works earn “rewards,” not salvation. Romans 6:23.

SALVATION IS BASED UPON HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT OURS. Philippians 3:9 and 2 Corinthians 5:21 teach that it is Christ’s righteousness that is imputed to our account. If our salvation is based upon Christ’s righteousness and not our own, how could our own unrighteousness ever make His righteousness insufficient? When God declares us righteous, it is settled.

WE ARE KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD. 1 Peter 1:4,5 teaches this. If it is God’s power that keeps us, who is stronger or more powerful than God?

JESUS IS HOLDING US IN HIS HAND. John 10:28. We are not holding onto God; He is holding onto us! We could let go; He cannot and will not.

WE SHALL NEVER COME INTO CONDEMNATION OR JUDGEMENT. John 5:24 teaches us this. As in John 3:16 and John 10:28 wherein we are told we will NEVER PERISH, and in John 11:25 wherein Jesus said the believer will “NEVER DIE,” here we are told the believer will “NEVER COME INTO CONDEMNATION.” If a person could lose salvation, this would not be true.

WE HAVE ALREADY PASSED FROM DEATH UNTO LIFE. Now get this. According to John 5:24, the believer has already passed (past tense) from death into life. This cannot be speaking of physical life but must be speaking of spiritual death and life. We have never yet been dead physically but we were dead spiritually.

THE BELIEVER SHALL NEVER DIE. In John 11:25. Jesus said to Martha that “whoever lives and believes in me shall NEVER die.” He surely was not speaking of physical death so He must have been speaking of a spiritual death.

JESUS SAID HE WOULD NOT CAST US OUT. As in Hebrews 13:5 wherein Jesus said He would never leave us nor forsake us, in John 6:37, He tells us He will never cast us out.

JESUS WILL LOSE NOTHING (THAT INCLUDES US). John 6:39 tells us that Jesus will lose nothing but “raise it up at the last day.” Whatever we are, we are something! This answers those who say He will not cast us out but we could choose to walk out on our own.

WE ARE “JUSTIFIED” (DECLARED RIGHTEOUS) BY FAITH. When it is God who does the justifying, that is all we need. Romans 5:1 teaches us that it is because we are justified by faith that we have “peace with God.”

WE ARE SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. When it is God who does the sealing, man cannot break the seal. The Holy Spirit is given to every believer to be with him and in him forever. 1 Corinthians 6:19, 20 teaches us that we are “bought with a price,” the blood of Christ.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS OUR “EARNEST” (GUARANTEE) OF OUR INHERITANCE. Ephesians 1:13, 14 tells us this. An “earnest” is a sort of down payment and is forfeited if the grantor backs out.

GOD CANNOT LIE AND HE HAS PROMISED. Titus 1:2 teaches us that God cannot lie and He has promised us eternal life. God said it; that settles it!

GOD SAYS WE CAN KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. We are taught in 1 John 5:13 that the believer can “KNOW” that he "HAS" eternal life. How could he possibly know it if he could still wind up in hell?

EVEN IF WE ARE FAITHLESS, GOD REMAINS FAITHFUL FOR HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF. (2 Timothy 2:13) We are “in Christ” once we have believed.

OUR SINS (ALL OF THEM) HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN. If all sins are forgiven, how could any sin send a believer to hell? Acts 13:38, 39 says that “all who believe are justified from all things.” To be justified is to be declared righteous. When Christ died for sin, it was for all sin (past, present, and future).

NOBODY (INCLUDING SATAN) CAN LAY ANYTHING TO OUR CHARGE. Satan may accuse us for what we have done but it was God who sent His Son to pay the penalty for our sins and it is He who declares us righteous. If God declares us righteous, who is Satan to say otherwise? Romans 8:33.

NOTHING CAN SEPARATE US FROM GOD’S LOVE. Romans 8:37-39 teaches this clearly. “Nothing” certainly includes our sin.

THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT SALVATION CAN BE LOST. While there are numerous verses that some use to teach that salvation can be lost, there is no clear verse that says such a thing. There are verses that teach subjects like “falling from grace,” “working out your own salvation,” enduring to the end,” and “overcoming” which people try to use to teach the possibility of losing one’s salvation but this is not the case.

THE GIFTS AND CALLINGS OF GOD ARE IRREVOCABLE. Irrevocable means incapable of being recalled or revoked, irreversible (Romans 11:29). Nobody can argue that salvation is not a gift. See Romans 5 and notice how many times the word “gift” is used in describing salvation, even the term “free gift.”

BELIEVERS ARE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST It seems inconceivable that part of the Body of Christ would ever be sent to Hell.

SALVATION IS NEVER BASED ON WORKS SO HOW COULD ONE LOSE IT BY BAD WORKS? You didn't get saved by works, so how can you keep yourself saved by works? Make any sense? Verses like Ephesians 2:8,9, Titus 3:5, Romans 3:28, 4:5 and 11:6, and Galatians 2:16 all clearly teach the receiving of salvation apart from works. (Note especially Romans 4:5 “to him that does not work.”)

THE BELIEVER WILL NEVER PERISH. If this does not shout eternal security, then one must be determined to believe otherwise. John 3:16 is perhaps the most quoted and least understood verse in the Bible. Many would rather quote it this way: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes and continues to please God might not perish but have eternal life.”
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

---

According to all you who support the “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine there is no reason to live a separate and holy life after being born again.

Even though a holy and separate life is what Yahshua died that those who receive His “Grace” could live?

According to the perverted antichrist doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” all any believer can lose is their rewards!

---

Matthew 7:15 - 20 (NLT)

15 “Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves . 16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. 19 So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. 20 Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

becauseHElives is throwing rocks!


 

---

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
I'm not a "once saved always saved" believer in the literal sense of the phrase. Firstly, because I believe the scriptures talk about many different salvations. Some salvations you MAY lose. Some you cannot.

However, in the case where salvation = counted among God's children, no, I do not believe THAT kind of salvation can be lost.

And contrary to this condemnation written here:

quote:

---

According to all you who support the “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine there is no reason to live a separate and holy life after being born again.

---

..quite the opposite is true. After coming out from the doctrine of "God is lurking about ready to catch you unawares so He can smite you" (as an aside: notice the similarity here, between their understanding of God and the enemy described in 1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.)as I was saying; after coming out of the above doctrine I have grown and matured beyond what I thought possible. Certainly, it was never possible to grow and mature under the "God as enemy" doctrine, for anyone who suggested that God is NOT simply waiting to nail us would be branded a heretic and expelled from the group (either officially or unofficially). They would be accused of promoting a sinful life (see the above quote).

So, I wonder, "Why do people endeavor to wrap their fellow saints in shrouds of legalism? In denim jumpers, long beards, and certain "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle" practices that have an appearance of wisdom but are empty of any value for the children of God?"

Truthfully, I'm not sure. But I think it has something to do with knowing the scriptures very well but not knowing (very well) the One of Whom the scriptures are written. For this there is only one remedy: revelation. And that is the work of the Holy Spirit. For the most part, I must be content for Him to do His work without any "help" from me.

Bless you,
Aaron
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
It is a cop out to say that the backslider was never saved. It is denial. It is convenient! It makes it easy for one to embrace osas. (And so many supportive scriptures are so out of context.) But trying to convince the osas crowd of it is harder even than convincing one that there is no rapture.

So let's talk rapture for one brief momemt. If there is a rapture, one will not have to worry about it at all, if they are where they are supposed to be in Him. So there is no point in focusing on it. One who is in good stead will not have to expend any energy expounding on it. But if there is not a rapture, some little faiths are going to take a beating. They are going to fail to trust. They are going to faint. If they are cornered in the near future and given a choice to deny Christ or die, what of them if they deny Christ? Were they not saved to begin with if they fail the courage to stand? Or was their faith shallow, like the roots on a plant, grown from a seed that fell on the stony ground?

You who are so sure of yourselves should take a second look now, before that day takes everyone by surprise. And confidence in osas is truly doubtful. One should seek to be sure of their faith, rather than place confidence in a supposed fact that sounds irrefutible.

In this passage below, the admonishment that preceeded it spoke of the consequences that befell those who murmured, fornicated, or lusted, who fell in the wilderness. The admonishment is that these things are writen for our admonishment, so that we would not take anything for granted, such as osas, and, if you will, "Be of an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God."

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." (1Co 10:12)


Here are more undeniable verses, though, the osas crowd will find a way around them, they think:

Let's start with this one and take them one at a time, for they are profound in their individuality:

"For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." (Rom 11:21)

Some, looking at this passage will rationalize it by saying that Jesus was talking about those who do not repent, will therefore not be spared. But consider this next verse, which preceeds the one we just read:

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" (Rom 11:20 )

And what about it if we analyze it? "Thou standest by, what, faith? It is clear, and literal, implying that without faith, one is not standing, but these were, so says He! Therefore His message to those who are standing is - compromising with the world is literally lack of faith.

Then, it says that because of unbelief these were broken off, reinforcing the idea that they were "IN," not out. And where does it go from there? If I could only say this loudly enough for it to echo around the world: It says next: "Be not highminded, but fear." We can stop here. This shouldn't be skimmed over lightly. It should snap one to attention!!!


But why did He say all of this, including the next verses?

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

As I just stated above, how that scripture says not to be highminded, but fear. In other words, do not be self confident, or assured. Do not take anything for granted, but fear, and search. You are grafted in, but the message is loud, you can be grafted out.

And for the final admonishment from this group of verses:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom 11:22)

Take it personally! What does it say? "If thou CONTINUE in His goodness," otherwise thou shalt be CUT off!!!

WAKE UP PEOPLE~

For He further says:

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." (Rom 11:23)

See the conditions here? "If they abide not STILL in unbelief..."

What says He may happen under those conditions? There are results.

"For God is able to graft them in again."
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
How can WE lose what is Jesus alone (gift that it is) to give?

His last words were "It is finished."

There is no more atonement for sin.

If it were so, then Jesus died in vain. When you accept that gift, accept the Holy Spirit, then it IS finsished.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to (what?) fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba Father."


Believers don't have to walk around in constant fear. We have respect for God and we revere Him, but we don't have to fear Him. Because we know He loves us.

John Chapter 13, where Jesus is dealing with Martha, Mary and Lazarus, all through that chapter, it isn't how much Lazarus and Mary loved Jesus, but what is it?

How much He loved them, this is what people have to realize.
It isn't dependent upon how much I love Him, although I certainly love Him. But you see, the thing that's important is that I(we) realize how much He loves me(us)! Enough to die and suffer for us. Now then, when we have that kind of a salvation, the Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God.


 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Sigh! Another incomplete quote! "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."(Rom 8:1 )

To walk after the Spirit is effected by the provision of the Holy Spirit - to rise above sin. Otherwise, there is condemnation! To walk after the Spirit is to abide in Him safe from sin.

Scripture does not say that His sacrifice for sin is 'final' in the sense that it negates sin such that one may disregard it as something that is inevitable, that one may therefore simply ignore the instances thereof. What kind of testimony is that? Moreover, to say that the sacrifice is sufficient is a misread of the scriptures. The sacrifice is sufficient if the Blood is appropiated, not if one is in denial!
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
If one sees what they want to see, and yet they were warned, their judgment will be worse! Scriptures verify this also.

Moreover, it can be read in the post given above, taken from scripture. It is irrefutible except to the darkened mind. It is direct and potent! It says to 'fear' Him. (and not only here does it say that.)

But "Perfect love casts out fear." (1 John) The word perfect is in this verse for a reason! If one's faith is perfect, then they are not under condemnation, therefore, they are not under fear, as in judgment. For their love towards Him is perfect. That does not mean by any stretch, osas. It means that it is the confidence of the resurrected life, which is above reproach, not the defeated life (which is supposed by some to be negated by His provision 2000 years and ten, ago).

As the cow chews the cud, that is a potent read above, as are so many. No interpretation of scripture can disallow, with impunity, such passages as I included there. One would be wise to read and consider.

I will repeat this verse from above:

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: On them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Rom 11:22)
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Name Erased from Book of Life?


Question: Please explain Revelation 3:5, "He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life…"

Does this mean that my name can be blotted out of the book of life and that I can lose my salvation?

Answer:
Some people believe that this verse teaches that your name can be erased from the book of life. Notice that the verse doesn't say that a person's name can be blotted out of the book. It says, "I will not erase his name from the book of life." Rather than being fearful of being blotted out, this verse gives assurance that a believer's name cannot be erased.

Every city had a register which recorded each resident. If a person moved or died, his name was blotted out of the book. Jesus says, "You might get erased from that book, but you will never be erased from My book." This verse doesn't teach you can lose your salvation, but that you can't.

When were the names written in the book of life? Jesus told His disciples to "rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:20). Christ told them to REJOICE because their names were already recorded in heaven. They couldn't rejoice if they could be blotted out the next day.

Revelation 17:8 says, "And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast…" Why would God write in a person's name if He knew that He would have to blot it out?

Notice it doesn't say that their names were blotted out, but that their names were never written in. From when?

From the foundation of the world. Saved people's names were recorded at that time. "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…" (Eph. 1:4)

How can He choose us before we are even born? We are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father…" (1 Peter 1:1-2). God knew ahead of time who would call upon Him to be saved, and He recorded their names before the foundation of the world.

Some have taught that a person can be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost, etc.


That would mean that God would write down the name, then erase it, then write it in, then erase it-the Book of Life would be pretty messy. No, God doesn't make mistakes. God doesn't have an eraser on His pencil.

But doesn't Revelation 3:5 promise this only to those who "overcome"?

The apostle John, who wrote the book of Revelation, also wrote First John. He explained what it means to be an "overcomer" in 1 John 5:4: "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world."

Everyone who is born of God is an overcomer-and will not have his or her life erased from the Book of Life.

What about those who appear to be Christians but then quit the faith?

Were their names erased from the Book of Life?

John explained that as well. "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

No, their names weren't erased. They never were believers in the first place, meaning their names were never written in the Book of Life.


http://kentcrockett.com/biblestudies/name_erased.htm
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
This is a distraction from Romans eleven. But Revelations 3: 5 says that the one who overcometh will be clothed in white. That leaves out the one who doesn't. Rather than say that he who does not overcme will be blotted out (for it talkes about that in other places in scripture) it says with a positive spin that those who do, will be acknowledgd. What is it but that anyone else will not be??? How can anyone assume that it will be roses for the slacker in spite of 'everything'. Why, these people migkt as well as join those who are now saying that there is no hell.

Another thing: This argument keeps coming up about getting saved, then unsaves, and saved. Riddiculous. You get saved, and at the judgment He will cut you asunder. Look up that word in E-sword. That means that the person will be appointed his place with the unbelievers. This is verbatim as per the word in the gospels. The 'believer' who squanders, will forfeit and be classified with the hypocrites though he believed. Here is why scripture says to "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling."

Aw naw. It doesn't mean that. That passage means that I am secure no matter what I do with my salvation. Why, I was saved before I was born. Whach you talking about?

I will tell you, there is one understanding that is His. All other understandings are doomed. And one cannot have a theory that is that blind to other verses in scripture and have hope. Something is wrong with it.

I am as saved as it gets. I do know it. I haved the confirmation within me. I also know that He will not override my free will should I reject Him.

And how do you know that the verse concerning them going out from us, applies to this very discussion? I'll come back to that.

Osas is as srange ss if a mormon came up with it. This passage of three five is as self explanitory as it comes in the bible. I see no way that someone can say "I'm ok if I do, I'm ok if I don't." For these people exactly were the admonishments given elsewhere in scripture. Not to say so would be as serious as not to preach to the lost.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Kindgo, I liked your post. I have mostly believed that “OSAS” (“once saved always saved”) is not true, and I'll use a few parts of your post to make my point. You said

quote:

---

We are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father…" (1 Peter 1:1-2). God knew ahead of time who would call upon Him to be saved, and He recorded their names before the foundation of the world.

Some have taught that a person can be saved, then lost, then saved, then lost, etc.

That would mean that God would write down the name, erase it, then write it in, then erase it again-the Book of Life would be pretty messy. No, God doesn't make mistakes. God doesn't have an eraser on His pencil.

---

quote:

---

What about those who appear to be Christians but then quit the faith? Were their names erased from the Book of Life?

John explained that as well, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

No, their names weren't erased. They never were believers in the first place, meaning their names were never written in the Book of Life.

---

I do think that in John’s day at the dawn of Christianity, there were many more Mosaic Judaizers who were not believers at all and who had infiltrated the Jewish Christian groups in order “to rein in the heretics”. It was not an easy and orderly transition from Moses to Jesus.

So let’s now fast forward to the 21st century. But, where are the Mosaic Judaizers in the 21st century? We have people who say and think that Jesus died for their sins, and we have people who say they do not believe that Jesus died for their sins.

Now, according to OSAS or “once saved, always saved”, the very first time that someone says, “I think that Jesus died for my sins” then that person’s name is written in the book of life and that name is never erased again, according to you, Kindgo.

I propose that OSAS people are using the wrong time when God writes the name in the book of life. God does not write the name when a person first believes, but God writes the name when a person dies in faith. And that makes a huge difference.

For yes, Kindgo, if God wrote in the name when a person first believed, and if that believing person then went to university and learned geology and carbon dating and about natural selection and sedimentation, the believing person one day said, “you know, I don’t believe that medieval Jesus stuff anymore, I think that science and evolution is the true answer”, then God has to erase that name again IF God wrote the name of that person in the book of life when that person first believed.

But if God writes the name of the believer in the book of life depending on whether the person died in the faith of Jesus, or not, then all these erasure problems are immediately solved. And by the way, that way God can also keep a very clean book of life, and not a messy one.

So what does the Bible say about this:

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that everyone of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcomes and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

I therefore think that the Bible agrees with the principle that God does not write the name of the believing person in the book of life when the person first believes, but God writes the name of that person in the book of life at the end of the person’s life, and not when the person first believes.

OSAS people are looking at the wrong event to determine who will be saved and who will not be saved.

OSAS people are looking at when a person first believes to give them "lifelong" salvation, but God is looking at what a person believes at death to give them salvation. And those two "determining events" produce wholly different results.

Indeed, the entire OSAS debate, if I may call it that, is the result of thinking that God writes the name when a person first believes.

But there IS no OSAS debate when God writes the name at a person's death.

With love to you, Kindgo,
eden
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Kindgo

I have not been able to find in any study Bible, any commentary, any Bible dictionary or encyclopedia, any Bible handbook, or any inspirational book, at least not in my collection, anything that says a Christian can lose his salvation. I really have looked. Everything says our salvation is secured at the moment we give our lives to Christ.

Those who say that OSAS teaches that we can do whatever we want, well, this is only true because what I want to do is love and serve Christ. And, those who say that OSAS teaches that we can do whatever we want have not bothered to actually read what we've posted.


Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation . (NKJV)

We feel condemned because Satan uses past guilt and present failures to make us question what Christ has done for us. Our assurance must be focused on Christ, not our performance.

Our own conscience reminds us of guilt.

Non-Christian friends will notice (and point out) our inconsistencies.

Past memories of how we lived can haunt us.

Personal dysfunctions such as shame, low self esteem, or compulsions will trip us up.

The perfection of the law will show how imperfect we are.

We can allow Christ’s perfect example to discourage our efforts rather than encourage our trust.

Unhealthy comparisons with other believers will make us feel inadequate.


“This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:19-20 NIV).

Often, we are like the criminal who hates his incarceration while at the same time denying that he finds any security in his cell. Then, beyond all expectations, the warden announces a pardon and unlocks the cell. As the door swings open, the prisoner meets the delight of freedom and a tinge of fear of the unknown. What will this new life be like? Many find a strange; comfort in the familiar state of condemnation. Christ invites us to leave the cell behind. Some rush out joyfully, some calmly and thoughtfully, and others leave the cell of their old life with painful slowness. Once outside, most of us experience, from time to time, a strange longing for the old familiar cell. We must remember that what may seem appealing was actually a filthy holding cell on death row.

Because we have been rescued by Christ (7:24-25), and are thus in Christ Jesus, we are not condemned. To be in Christ Jesus means to have put our faith in him, becoming a member of his body of believers. Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24 NIV). There can be no condemnation, for “we have been justified through faith” and “have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (5:2).

In the original manuscript, there was probably no break between Paul’s summation in 7:25 of the struggle between the two allegiances (two minds) within himself and the proclamation in 8:1 that in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation for our vacillations. We believers must never forget the reality of our rescue and our indebtedness to God’s grace in Christ. We can persevere in our daily struggles knowing that “if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself” (2 Timothy 2:13 NIV). Our need for the ongoing presence of the Holy Spirit is so clear at this point that some early manuscripts add , after Jesus, the phrase from verse 4, “who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.” But putting that phrase here completes the thought too quickly, an approach Paul seldom used.


(Life Application Bible Commentary: Romans)
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
 

---

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
Eden,

I take these passages quite literally. The death spoken of here is not death of the body but it is death nonetheless as far as God is concerned:

quote:

---

Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

---

quote:

---

..quite the opposite is true. After coming out from the doctrine of "God is lurking about ready to catch you unawares so He can smite you"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I see wyld b. I think you posted those already. They are good passages. I like them! However, never minding these, if what you say (overall) is true, then there is no consequence. But it is all about consequence, starting with Lucifer, until now. All of Israel's backsliding and repenting, which was written 'for our admonition' is about consequence! Consequence cannot be escaped. So, consequence is not eradicated. It is real. No one who reads scripture with this in mind can say that it is not so. For if the sinner does not repent, there is consequence. If the believer sins, there is consequence. He does not escape just because he is forgiven. Consequence still happens!

---

quote:

---

The direst consequence is when someone clings to an erronious idea, and loses it all, all the while thinking that they were absolutely correct. This is why scripture says that there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth." I find it disheartening to consider, for the sake of so many.

---

Hey Mike, you have a beam in your eye..
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
~Consequence~

Who will read the word according to the way it is written?


2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

~Consequence~

2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.


"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."(Rom 6:23)

It remaineth that the wages of sin is death. Sin is the failure to trust God for life! Therefore the wages of sin.

Consequence, the inescapability thereof:

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."(Gal 6:7)

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

So, he who reapeth corruption, how sayeth thou, that he reapeth life even though he sewed to corruption?

He who sews to the Spirit shall of the Spirit, reap life everlasting. Consequence! To what will you sew, unto corruption, while expecting to reap life?
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
~Consequence~

Who will read the word according to the way it is written?


2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
What do you benefit wyldb? Which is wronger, to say that you cannot lose your salvation, which means that there is no need to argue it, if so; or to caution others not to take for granted so great a salvation, in which case the one considering will be wise and prudent in any wise? If salvation cannot be lost, you have no need to argue. There is no action, no argument necessary, much less the need to reprimand someone such as me if it is so. If it is so, then you can rest in your confidence, because what I teach will not, cannot cost me my salvation. What do you gain wyldb, because if I were wrong, there would be no consequence for you to speak against. Your argument is mute. To err on the side of caution is expedient, and certainly harmless. To err on your side could cost you everything. Argue till you are blue in the face! You are not preventing any from a costly error, if you are right! I am.

---

quote:

---

Hey Mike, you have a beam in your eye..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
How long will a marrage last if one of the partners is cold towards the other? It cannot thrive. And even if the one partner is exceedingly strong and able to weather such adversity for a very long time, if the other doesn't come around, the marrage will still eventually die. It cannot survive.

---

quote:

---

~Consequence~

Who will read the word according to the way it is written?

---

quote:

---

It remaineth that the wages of sin is death. Sin is the failure to trust God for life! Therefore the wages of sin.

---

quote:

---

Hello, Eden, born again, I think your post is nonsense, no scripture to prove your points.

---

quote:

---

what do the words to the end refer to in the following scriptures:

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that everyone of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcomes and keeps my works UNTO THE END, to him will I give power over the nations.

---

quote:

---

What sins will make me lose my salvation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TB125:
In response to this question:

quote:

---

What sins will make me lose my salvation?

---

I post this single answer: unfruitfullness. See John 15:4-8 and Matthew 25:14-30 (particularly verses 24-30).

---

Thats a condition not a sin.

For the Corintians could speak in toungs yet a man had his fathers wife.

What did Paul say?

Now your salvation is gone?

No he did not.

1Cor.5
[1] It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The sooner we as believers discover that we are but branches, the better we will relate to the Lord; for we will know our own weakness and confess our need for His strength.

The key word is abide; it is used eleven times in John 15:1-11 (“continue” in John 15:9 and “remain” in John 15:11). What does it mean to “abide”? It means to keep in fellowship with Christ so that His life can work in and through us to produce fruit. This certainly involves the Word of God and the confession of sin so that nothing hinders our communion with Him (John 15:3). It also involves obeying Him because we love Him (John 15:9-10).

How can we tell when we are “abiding in Christ”? Is there a special feeling? No, but there are special evidences that appear and they are unmistakably clear. For one thing, when you are abiding in Christ, you produce fruit (John 15:2). Also, you experience the Father’s “pruning” so that you will bear more fruit (John 15:2). The believer who is abiding in Christ has his prayers answered (John 15:7) and experiences a deepening love for Christ and for other believers (John 15:9, 12-13). He also experiences joy (John 15:11).

This abiding relationship is natural to the branch and the vine, but it must be cultivated in the Christian life. It is not automatic. Abiding in Christ demands worship, meditation on God’s Word, prayer, sacrifice, and service —but what a joyful experience it is! Once you have begun to cultivate this deeper communion with Christ, you have no desire to return to the shallow life of the careless Christian.

THE FRUIT

The word results is often heard in conversations among Christian workers, but this is not actually a Bible concept. A machine can produce results, and so can a robot, but it takes a living organism to produce fruit. It takes time and cultivation to produce fruit ; a good crop does not come overnight.

We must remember that the branches do not eat the fruit: others do. We are not producing fruit to please ourselves but to serve others . We should be the kind of people who “feed” others by our words and our works. “The lips of the righteous feed many” (Prov. 10:21).

Several different kinds of spiritual fruit are named in the Bible. We bear fruit when we win others to Christ (Rom. 1:13). We are a part of the harvest (John 4:35-38). As we grow in holiness and obedience, we are bearing fruit (Rom. 6:22). Paul considered Christian giving to be fruit from a dedicated life (Rom. 15:28). “The fruit of the Spirit” (Gal. 5:22-23) is the kind of Christian character that glorifies God and makes Christ real to others. Even our good works, our service, grow out of our abiding life (Col. 1:10). The praise that comes from our hearts and lips is actually fruit to the glory of God (Heb. 13:15).

Many of these things could be counterfeited by the flesh, but the deception would eventually be detected, for real spiritual fruit has in it the seeds for more fruit . Man-made results are dead and cannot reproduce themselves, but Spirit-produced fruit will go on reproducing from one life to another. There will be fruit—more fruit—much fruit.

A true branch, united with the vine, will always bear fruit . Not every branch bears a bumper crop, just as not every field has a bumper harvest (Matt. 13:8, 23), but there is always fruit where there is life. If there is no fruit, the branch is worthless and it is cast away and burned. I do not believe our Lord is teaching here that true believers can lose their salvation, for this would contradict what He taught in John 6:37 and 10:27-30. If anything, John 15:6 describes divine discipline rather than eternal destiny.

The vinedresser is in charge of caring for the vines, and Jesus said that this is the work of His Father. It is He who “purges” or prunes the branches so they will produce more fruit . Note the progression here: no fruit (John 15:2), fruit, more fruit, much fruit (John 15:5, 8).


(Be Transformed-John 13-21)
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Well so much for that..

My question now is:

If I sin, then immediatly I'm struck by lightening, am I condemmed to hell for eternity?

Which sins will cause me to lose my salvation? How many do I have to commit?

Which sins did Jesus not die for?
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
You can't lose your salvation, but I have heard that some Christians live miserable lives because they are not really living for Christ. I think the movie "Facing The Giants" is a great illustration of this.

Matt.12

[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


Is there an “unpardonable sin” today? Yes, the final rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus made it clear that all sins can be forgiven (Matt. 12:31). Adultery, murder, blasphemy, and other sins can all be forgiven; they are not unpardonable. But God cannot forgive the rejection of His Son. It is the Spirit who bears witness to Christ (John 15:26) and who convicts the lost sinner (John 16:7-11).
 

---

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Kindgo,
I believe that your statement "Oh no, I think I just lost my salvation" is quite sarcastic. I think that you should consider that those on this site that believe it is possible to lose salvation may very well be concerned for the souls of others,yes even your soul. I think it can be assumed that an individuals salvation status would not fluctuate like a teeter totter everytime they sin, and I also think that it can also be assumed that God would not be the covenant breaker.

I was reading scripture the other night and I could'nt help but notice how often we are warned to be watchful.

Matthew 24:42
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 25:13
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.

1 Thessalonians 5:6
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 3:2
Be watchful, and strenghthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

According to my bible dictionary the word "watch" means to keep awake, be alert, give strict attention lest through negligence and indolence some destructive calamity overtakes one, or lest one deny or forsake Christ, or fall into sin. END

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
That was one of the best posts that I have ever read Carol - "The sooner we discover that we are branches!" (You too oneinchrist.)


wildbe: Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is to lie to Him. That means to misrepresent something to Him. To hold false doctrine in the heart is to lie to one's self, and perhaps to Him, in that one misrepresents the facts to Him as though they were true.

All manner of sin will be forgiven man except.... If this were not so, we would all lose our salvation. It is not these sins that threaten our redemption. It is the hardening of the heart. It is taking for granted, rather than, as oneinchrist said, watching. If our eyes are not on Him, bur rather on the world, we are in danger. Here is an example that addresses your new question though kindgo: If one is in a sin, such as an immoral sexual act when He appears, it is over! You will not have time to repent for He says that His coming will be as the lghtening flashes from the east to the west. It will be as in the twinkling of an eye. Here is why HE says 'wateh' and not be distracted. \

But I'll say it again, we will be judged for the deeds done in the body. It is more than losing one's reward when that judgment takes place. That is why the parable of the talents says what it says to the one who squandered what was given him (which represents salvation given to him). He got it, but he didn't cultivate it. It goes back to the plant thing. It is reason to fear, but with praise and thanksgiving! He is good and His provision steadfast.

But someone, on fire by His Spirit burned for Him for a while, but the temptation of the world overwhelmed him. He never recovered. What was given to him was lost. He died unrepentant from the sin that brought him again under bondage. If you die in sin, you do not have an excues. You have 'crucified' again unto yourself, Christ. There remaineth therefore no sacrifice for sin. You have crucified the sacrifice that covered for you. So, as it it written, you only have fiery indignation to look forward to.

1 Thes 1:6 "Watch and be sober." The sober mentioned here does not mean not to be drinking. It means to be in relationship. It means to be giving attention to.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Kindgo. You asked

quote:

---

I'd like to ask all the people who believe I can lose my salvation this question:

What sins will make me lose my salvation?

---

quote:

---

God has provided the resources for us to be faithful: True! Then we have to accept them. What if Abraham hadn't 'accepted'. Then he couldn't have followed through. It is in the following through. Yep, it is the state of our condition at the time of our end of the race. It is why Paul said he had not attianed. It is why scripture says to perservere, and not faint.

---

quote:

---

Kindgo,
I believe that your statement "Oh no, I think I just lost my salvation" is quite sarcastic.

---

quote:

---

Whereas on the other hand when I read Jesus' teachings I take into consideration that Jesus is the Son of God. If Paul and Jesus ever seem to contradict , guess who's side I am going to err on?

---

quote:

---

If I sin, then immediatly I'm struck by lightening, am I condemmed to hell for eternity?

Which sins will cause me to lose my salvation? How many do I have to commit?

Which sins did Jesus not die for?

---

quote:

---

It is amazing how people in the most negative way want to have more power than God, ignore all of His rules to life, and arogantly deny what He wrought in Christ when He raised him from the dead.....

---

quote:

---

The one who will not confess their sins to God, will not be forgiven, and thus will not be saved. This applies to all, whether they have already been saved or not. The one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, must also continue to confess their sins to God, and ask His forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ, or they will not be saved.

---

quote:

---

The one who will not confess their sins to God, will not be forgiven, and thus will not be saved. This applies to all, whether they have already been saved or not. The one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, must also continue to confess their sins to God, and ask His forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ, or they will not be saved.

---

quote:

---

Those who teach that we can lose our salvation also teach that such a person can be restored.

---

quote:

---

to tell someone new in the Faith or even someone older in the Faith...no matter have they live if they believe in Yahshua they will still have eternal life....

---

quote:

---

he writer did not say that these people could never be brought to repentance. He said that they could not be brought to repentance while they were treating Jesus Christ in such a shameful way. Once they stop disgracing Jesus Christ in this way, they can be brought to repentance and renew their fellowship with God.

---

This I will concede! They can repent. What Paul is saying seems to be that they cannot be forced. Their free will is active and the Holy Spirit will not force them. God's will will not trump your will. All of scripture teaches us that He is this way. It is the very reason we are given the option to 'repent'. Nothing happens from on high unless we do repent. So the perpetual state of repentance is essential. And if osas is true, then repentance is totally void. It isn't needed. And it never applies.

He is able to 'save to the uttermost' those who come to Him - with their participation! Granted, He is greater than our will, but this is what gives us our dignity, our will, in that He gives us choice. HE didn't create zombies. He doesn't call zombies. He calls those who fear His name (in a healthy and respectful way, to their own good). HE does not disrespect us. He gives us choice!


So are you telling me that a person can once sincerely believe in their life, "they received the word with joy", but then the cares and riches of this life, they no longer needed God and they were now "doing just fine by myself, thank you".

Yes! I believe that even the blessedness of God poured out on someone can be discounted by some, and they will shrink back into darkness. That is scariest of all.

So!

Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

For those who believe in osas, that would be towards us who do not. For those of us who do not believe in osas, that would be towards those who are compromisers, who are weak, or those who will, or perhaps have slipped back into darkness. It would be towards those who could be lost because they were once alive and vibrant, but who are now experiencing a love for the world, which entails disregard for His will, which is the fruit of 'unbelief', which separates, which is no where to be - ever!!!

Many are weak in the faith! These need something besides osas in order to survive. What will they say when they face Him, and they give osas as the reason why they should enter into His joy? Osas doesn't save, Jesus does! Tell a young Christian the doctrine of osas and see what happens to Him. Will he feel the need to seek? Will he perservere? Will he submit? No! He might not. He might just shrug and say, "Good!" I'll just head on over to the rock concert now and look for some free love. What will you be guilty of? Nothing? What is a single soul worth? But if he or she is always saved, you have nothing to worry about right?
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Osas may be true! But osas doesn't work without repentance.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

---

Carol, I have repeatedly said and have others that hold the same view as I, if salvation is lost there is no restoration.

---

quote:

---

the "Once Saved Always Saved" crowd teach that if you have been saved and go back into the world and never repent and die... they will still have eternal life.

---

quote:

---

and Carol, Kindgo and WildB you still have not addressed "Enduring till the End"....

---

quote:

---

The “if” clause (Heb. 3:6) needs to be understood in the light of the total context , which is Moses leading Israel out of Egypt and to the Promised Land. The writer is not suggesting that we, as Christians, must keep ourselves saved. This would contradict the major theme of the book, which is the finished work of Christ and His heavenly ministry guaranteeing our eternal salvation (Heb. 7:14).

Rather, the writer is affirming that those who hold fast their confidence and hope are proving that they are truly born again.

---

quote:

---

great statement Michael....

I believe that if one is still hoping, he will in fact be saved in spite of himself. The unfortunate reality however, is that when sin hardens, even the heart that was once soft, can turn against HIM, refuse to be with HIM. So it is entirely dangerous to be complacent about this.

---

 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Quote by someone:
the "Once Saved Always Saved" crowd teach that if you have been saved and go back into the world and never repent and die... they will still have eternal life.
Unquote!

Quote Carol:
This is not true . You will need to show us where any of us ever said that. We have always taught Love and Obedience, and Divine Discipline.
Unquote:

Some have said so said! As I recall Carol, the osas group feel that the one that this happens to was never saved in the first place. Therefore their argument stands, given this rationalization, that once one is saved, they cannot be unsaved.

You guys!

~

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Mat 5:22)

Here, Jesus clearly states that the man who calls his 'brother' a fool is in danger of hell fire! That's as serious as it gets when describing the possibility that one can lose their salvation. And for that matter, all the man did is say something negative about someone else who is saved, i.e. his brother no less. Wooooh.

Osas group will no doubt say that this is only a hypothetical.

So many don't have to worry about it, thankfully. They have the fear of God to persevere and wouldn't consider 'testing' God. And their faith in this regard might stand for them. It doesn't work for everybody though. Someare weak in the faith.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Whether one loses his salavation, or only his reward, there is an enemy at work trying to devour with temptation, or deceive with conceptual overtones that distract from the one who is supposed to have our attention every given moment. You know who!!! Were you distracted?

Look to Him.
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Didn't mean to ignore you ANM. Where do you stand (or are you sitting this one out?). What will you be?
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
becauseHElives

I said

quote:

---

Rather, the writer is affirming that those who hold fast their confidence and hope are proving that they are truly born again.

---

quote:

---

They all died in the wilderness because of unbelief.

---

quote:

---

but the promise land does not represent "Eternal Life" anyway... their will be no Giants to face in eternity when we put off this house of clay.

---

quote:

---

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Mat 5:22)

Here, Jesus clearly states that the man who calls his 'brother' a fool is in danger of hell fire! That's as serious as it gets when describing the possibility that one can lose their salvation. And for that matter, all the man did is say something negative about someone else who is saved, i.e. his brother no less. Wooooh.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I'd really like to know how there can be a such thing as an "unfaithful believer" if a believer's life is to be marked by a committment to the Lordship of Jesus. Don't get me wrong...... I do believe that we can be(and certainly are) unfaithful in different areas of our lives at different times, but if our lives are marked by unfaithfullness in a general sense, I think that we may need to question whether or not we have a faith in the Lord that is genuine and sincere.

Is'nt the devil an unfaithful believer?

With love in Christ, Daniel

---

When we are unfaithful, he remains faithful....next.

 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Acts 4:36-37(NLT)

For instance, there was Joseph, the one the apostles nicknamed Barnabas (which means “Son of Encouragement”). He was from the tribe of Levi and came from the island of Cyprus. He sold a field he owned and brought the money to the apostles for those in need.


Barnabas (Joseph) is introduced here because he gave money from the sale of a field he owned to the apostles to give to those in need. Barnabas would prove to be a respected and important leader in the life of the early church. Barnabas would later travel with Paul on Paul’s first missionary journey (13:4). John Mark (author of the Gospel of Mark) was his cousin. “Barnabas” means Son of Encouragement , and it would prove, over and over, to be most appropriate.


Look at Peter, Barnabas, Stephen, and others who were willing to give all, even their lives, for the Lord. Then look at what Ananias and Sapphira did.

Ananias and Sapphira were jealous of Barnabas. The proper response to a “Barnabas deed” is not to become jealous but to follow the example. We must not become envious; instead, we should rejoice with them and be motivated to continue in our own task of growing into Christ’s likeness.

Ananias and Sapphira had likely been at the worship service when Barnabas had laid his gift at the apostle’s feet—a great gift, a great moment. The “wow” of the crowd, who probably knew what the gift was worth and what level of sacrifice it was, had followed. The “buzz” probably followed on the streets, in their small group meetings: “Can you believe Barnabas gave all that away? What a man of God!” Ananias and Sapphira wanted the same reputation, and they lied in order to get it.

Upon witnessing the holy wrath of God on sinning people, the church (as well as those outside the church) was gripped with great fear! We must be careful, in an age of marketing the church and trying to make the gospel user-friendly, that we do not skim over this truth: God is to be feared! It is true that he is a God rich in love and abounding in mercy. But it is also true that he hates and judges sin.

(Life Application Bible Commentary: Acts)


OSAS does not teach that it's okay to live in sin. We teach Love and Obedience, and Divine Discipline.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Carol Swenson, you said

quote:

---

OSAS does not teach that it's okay to live in sin. We teach Love and Obedience, and Divine Discipline.

---

quote:

---

while the servant obeys out of fear.

---

quote:

---

Even as I prayed, I felt so inadequate - so far from what God wants of me. I thought, "I don't think I'll ever make it. I'll never be worthy enough."

That's when the Lord gave me this very message! He said, "You're right, David - you'll never be holy enough, by your own standards and works. But right now I'm not looking for you to do some great thing for Me. I want you to know that, even as you're lying here praying, I'm at work being faithful to you, for My eternal purpose. And I'm going to see My purpose through in your life!"

Beloved, the Lord is going to do that for every one of us! He uses the weak, foolish things of the world to accomplish His purposes. We all fail the Lord; no one in His church is perfect. Yet every time we are unfaithful to Him, He remains faithful to us!

So, take your eyes off of your failures and weaknesses, and fix them on His faithfulness. He cannot deny Himself. He is utterly faithful to His Word - and He is going to see you through all your battles! Hallelujah!

---

quote:

---

This brings me to God's warning:

There Is Only One Thing That Can Cause
the Lord To Turn Aside From You!

Only one thing can abort God's wonderful purpose for you - and that is the sin of stubborn pride! We see this in the life of Saul. Scripture tells us God's Spirit was on this man, from the day Samuel saw him coming down the road. God had called Saul, and He was using him.

---

quote:

---

Carol that shows how shallow you are reading

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Beats everything I have ever seen!!! Osas blinds the heart to the truth. The 'fruit' of osas is bad. Bad fruit, withered leaf, furnace blast, I repeat. You had better have 'relationship', because, otherwise you have only the dark to keep - you.

It comes again to the parable of the talents. A man got salvation (which is what the parable represents) and lost it because he didn't cultivate relationship. He lost it (salvation) because it (what he thought he had given to him, as the passage reads) was taken from him and given to another. He lost it because he though he had osas. He rested in osas. Osas didn't work for him. That is the meaning of the parable, that you not count on osas. And it does not stand alone. There are examples that cannot be ignored all throughout. Yet, they seem to be meaningless???

Here is why we have the passage about what happened in the wilderness for our example. Yet, as loudly as this speaks, osas can turn up its nose as though that was unimportant to be said.

~

Yea becausehelives. I spent time up there with the Wilkersons. There were some people from Russia there when I went. They were fortunate enough to get to America, and having read somewhat by people who were persecuted for their faith in Russia, I was breathtaken when two of them said that they had to go back. They had to witness to Jesus back in Russia. This was before the setback which has opened the doors temporarily for the gospel in that country.

~

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
15 “If you love me, obey my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you. 18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

This is a conversation that Jesus had with His disciples before He endured the Cross. All the clues are there on how to interpret it.

"I will not abaonon you as orphans." He means that He will send His Spirit to dwell in them, which cannot happen until He has endured the Cross. He even says, "Because He lives 'with' you now," because the Spirit had not been given yet while they were under the Old Covenant, and "but shall be 'in' you," when He is risen.

21 Those who accept my commandments and obey them are the ones who love me. And because they love me, my Father will love them. And I will love them and reveal myself to each of them.”

See the 'condition' here? A condition is something that 'has to be met'. (This is exactly what I am talking about when I talk about participating.) What happens if the condition isn't met? It doesn't say here, but there is a clue in that there is a condition that has to be met. That implies that there is a consequence if the condition is not met. That will likely not be the same "No matter what."

Am I going to have to put on my boxing gloves. No! I need a switch. Hmmmmm! Where did I put it?

---

And what is his commandment ? It is simply to believe on the name of the Lord jesus Christ and to love one another. With love there is no law..being gentle , kind, remembering not past offenses and being patient. Who is he that overcomes? but he who believes on his name. Believing is overcoming, because we believe we have overcome. The righteous requirements of the law HAVE BEEN fully met in us in Him,because of the faith he has given us we have overcome. The gospel or new covenent is about grace, the old covenent is about laws rules and regulations, too many christians live in the old covenent, they lust to keep the law. The jews sought after righteousness but obtained it not as it were by the works of the law, the gentiles did'nt even seek it but obtained it through faith without ever hearing the law. I say once saved always saved, its pretty clear to me.
 

---

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi ANM,
I do believe that most christians on this site would agree that God would not break a covenant agreement with us. Yes, God is faithful even when we are not. What I do believe that some individuals(including me) are trying to point out is that christians can fall away from the faith. The vinedresser cutting out the dead and unfruitful branches, the olive branches that lift up in pride, the parable of the seed that was sown but when temptation came fell into thorns, references to departing from the faith, willfull sinning, the falling away before the man of sin is revealed, removing the candlestick, blotting names out of the book of life.................how could anyone think that there could be so many scriptural references to falling away from the faith and still deny the possibiity?
So for example, what do you say to a brother or sister christian who has gone into a life of adultery? Oh well, they just wont get as good as a reward as me? Oh how passive we can become to sin!......... what if your brother/sister is being drawn into the pits of Hell? He needs to be reminded of Gods warnings to us........flee fornication! flee from sin! get out of it!

When I read the gospels I do not see any indication that the "faithless" or "unfaithful" inherit eternal life............

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me, in the day of regeration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory, ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my names sake, shall receive and hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

A faithful servant is a committed follower of Jesus. Does the faithful servant go around talking about how faithful he is?, no he should not lest pride overtakes him. Is it possible to be saved without being a faithful and committed follower of Jesus.....No, I do not believe so.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Carol and other OSAS teachers...

David Wilkerson,Eden,Michael,Keith,yahsway,
oneinchrist, myself and others see all the verses of scripture you provide, we have studied and conclude Yahweh is loving, merciful, kind and long suffering.... we know and understand there is nothing we can do to earn Yahweh's forgiveness... but unlike OSAS teacher we look at the individuals part, the yielding of our will, the taking up of our personal cross daily....

Yahweh did not give examples for nothing ...

Saul

His Salvation:
1 Samuel 10:6 -- And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

This happened just as God said, he became a new man, and was converted.

His departure:
1 Samuel 15:11 -- It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

See also 1 Samuel 16:14. Saul became a murderer according to 1 Samuel 22:18,19, and one of God's enemies in 1 Samuel 28:16.


Solomon

His Salvation:
1 Chronicles 22:10 -- He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
This prophecy was given to David regarding Solomon. This prophecy came true, thus he was a child of God, and God was his Father.

His Departure:
1 Kings 11:4 -- For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

See also 1 Kings 11:9, 1 Chronicles 28:9, and 1 Kings 11:40. You cannot "turn away", unless you were there to begin with.

Parable of the Sower
Mk.4:3-8, 4:14-20

Their Salvation:
verse 16: And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
They received the Word joyfully, and they grew. They were alive.

Their Departure:
verse 17: And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

A root is grown by gradual growth in Christ. Their root was small, they only endured for a short time. They didn't persevere.

Demas

His Salvation:
Philemon 24: -- Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.
This doesn't necessarily prove that Demas was saved, but it gives a very good clue seeing he was following Paul and Paul even labeled a "fellowlabourer". Paul was picky about who traveled with him, as witnessed by Acts 15:37-41, where he refused to take someone with him because of a past experience of unfaithfulness.

His Departure:
2 Timothy 4:10 -- For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica;..."

If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. It is apparent that Demas was a believer, and then turned to the world.


Judas Iscariot

We know Judas died an unsaved man (Acts 1:25 Mark 14:21) through demon possession and suicide, but was he really saved to begin with?

His Salvation
Luke 6:13 -- And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Luke 14:
26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27: And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 12:
49: And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Judas was a disciple, and according to Jesus, saved.

Matthew 10:
7: And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8: Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

This charge was given to all disciples. Judas was given the power to heal sick, cleanse disease, raise the dead, and cast out devils. Is this not the mark of a saved man, and even more so, a representative of Jesus Christ?

Apostleship was the highest office in the Church. Judas fulfilled this requirement! He could not have been a fake.

John 17:12 -- While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS-terminology:
While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Simon

His Salvation:
Acts 8:13 -- Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

His Departure:
Acts 8:18-23
18: And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19: Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20: But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21: Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22: Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23: For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

According to paul, Simon would have perished with his money. His heart wasn't right in the sight of God, AND, he had NOT been forgiven yet, for Paul would not have told him to ask for forgiveness. And the fact that he was in the bond of iniquity, indicates that he was enslaved to sin. (see 2 Peter 2:20)

Fruitless Christians

Their Salvation/Departure: John 15:2 -- Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

John 15:6 -- If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

There is a story in Matthew about a servant of the King who was given one talent and told to make good use of it. He didn't. He never lost the talent, but he was fruitless in getting more. What happened to this man?

Matthew 25:30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


The Lukewarm

Their Salvation/Departure
Revelation 3:
15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

They would be spued out Christ! You cannot be spued out of Christ unless you were in Him to begin with.


The Unforgiving

Their Salvation: Matthew 18:23-31
>paraphrased<
The Kingdom of heaven is like a certain king that had a man that owed him a ton of money. He called the man forward and said "Pay me". The man couldn't. So the king ordered him to go to prison until the debt is paid. The man said, "I repent! Please forgive me of this great debt!" The King said "okay" and let the man go.

The man went outside and met a fella who owed him a little bit. He said "pay me". The fella couldn't. So he ordered him to go to prison. The fella said, "I repent! Please forgive me of this great debt!" The man said "Nuh-uh, you're going to jail."

So what happens? Let's read the Bible for the rest of it...

32: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me [repented]:
33: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34: And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35: So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

The forgiven became unforgiven! Watch out, it can happen to you too.

Unnamed 1

Their Salvation/Departure:
2 Timothy 2:
17: And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18: Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching a false doctrine about the resurrection and destroying the faith of the believers! This not only tells us that our faith can be destroyed (overthrown), but also that sin is not the only way to negate your salvation.

Unnamed 2

Their Salvation:
Luke 14:27,33
27: And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
33: So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
(They were saved)

Their Departure:
John 6:66 -- From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

They departed from following Christ.... what better way is there to lose your salvation?

Unnamed 3

Their Salvation/Departure:
1 Timothy 5:11-12,15
11: But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry;
12: Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
15: For some are already turned aside after Satan.

The younger widows should marry lest they are tempted to commit adultery and heap upon themselves damnation!

Unnamed 4

Their Salvation/Departure:
1 Timothy 6:8-10
8: And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
9: But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10: For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Verse 9, they drowned in destruction. This is the same "destruction" used in Matthew 7:13 pertaining exactly to Hell. Verse 10, "they have erred from the faith". You cannot "err from the faith" unless you are in the faith to begin with.

Unnamed 5

Their Salvation/Departure:
Luke 12:
45: But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46: The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

His portion with the unbelievers is obviously talking about the lake of fire. But was he saved to begin with? Well, he was a servant, and notice that it says that he began to beat the other servants and get drunk. He didn't do that before. His actions were spurred because of the temptations derived from the long wait for his master to return. He was saved.

Unnamed 6

His Salvation/Departure:
1 Corinthians 8:10-11
10: For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11: And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

Unnamed 7

1 Timothy 3:
1-5 contains various requirements for the office of Bishop in the Church.
6: Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

A young believer should not be given the office of Bishop in the Church of God lest he become prideful of it. This pride can bring upon him condemnation.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
ANM

Let's make this easy. Just read back into the past posts by setting "Show topics from the last xx days, to 60, or 80, etc." Or, for that matter, start at the beginning of this one, and read!

But for that matter, I have to agree with you. That parable is about one's reward, and increase. Regrettably, what you do not see is that the gift is Jesus, and the reward is deeper knowledge of Him. Herein is the parable of the talents. For what was given them, (in the heavenly sense) was salvation. What increased was the Kingdom of God.

Your supposition however, fits right in with prosperity preaching. For it has an 'earthly gain' mindset, perhaps. Reaping what you sew would be to sew unto the Kingdom, and to reap thereof. And not to 'reap' of the Kingdom, makes one a slothful servant, and it will be taken from that one and given to another. That will leave him in the cold, far away from the warmth of the loving God.

You know, what you wrote is beautifully stated. I found joy in reading it. However, it came to an abrupt end when it threw me on that very last statement!!!

quote:

---

I say once saved always saved, its pretty clear to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi ANM,
I do believe that most christians on this site would agree that God would not break a covenant agreement with us. Yes, God is faithful even when we are not. What I do believe that some individuals(including me) are trying to point out is that christians can fall away from the faith. The vinedresser cutting out the dead and unfruitful branches, the olive branches that lift up in pride, the parable of the seed that was sown but when temptation came fell into thorns, references to departing from the faith, willfull sinning, the falling away before the man of sin is revealed, removing the candlestick, blotting names out of the book of life.................how could anyone think that there could be so many scriptural references to falling away from the faith and still deny the possibiity?
So for example, what do you say to a brother or sister christian who has gone into a life of adultery? Oh well, they just wont get as good as a reward as me? Oh how passive we can become to sin!......... what if your brother/sister is being drawn into the pits of Hell? He needs to be reminded of Gods warnings to us........flee fornication! flee from sin! get out of it!

When I read the gospels I do not see any indication that the "faithless" or "unfaithful" inherit eternal life............

Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye which have followed Me, in the day of regeration when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory, ye shall also sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my names sake, shall receive and hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

A faithful servant is a committed follower of Jesus. Does the faithful servant go around talking about how faithful he is?, no he should not lest pride overtakes him. Is it possible to be saved without being a faithful and committed follower of Jesus.....No, I do not believe so.

With love in Christ, Daniel

---

Your right, I don't believe God would break a covenent relationship with us either , especially a covenent in his blood, we are bought with a price.... Some who produce the fruit of the sinful nature have never been saved to begin with, we are not talking about them here, they abide in death seperate from God. We are talking about those who's minds have not been renewed and who have not ben perfected in love and patience but have been born again. It just so happens that Im in the nursery business and understand grafting very well. I believe the rootstock we are grafted into is israel,or simply the law for righteousness, not that the law ever made anyone righteous. Any shoots that grow from that rootstock below the graft will produce the fruit of the law which is in my mind the fruit of the sinful nature. 1cor15:56 says the law is the power of sin,2 cor 3 tells us the law (specifically the ten commandments is the ministration of death and condemnation. When the law produces its fruit it does so because an individual was trying to keep law to obtain righteousness rather than believing that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, I call it the sin of unbelief, there is no condemnation here it is the sin that leads not to death, every sin a christian commits from salvation forward leads not to death or "seperation" how could it, sin is the transgression of the law and we are not under law but under grace. Therefore he who is born of God cannot sin....unto death or seperation. He can sin the sin that leads not unto death which in my view is self righteousness ,which is simply trying on his own to keep law, and again as one tries on his own like a pharisee, the fruit of the law is produced. The fruit of the Spirit is a whole different issue, it is fruit produced by Him as we ask Him to cleanse our conscience from law we are trying to keep, He cleanses our conscience from dead works, the dead works are not the smoking or drinkimg or adultery, the dead works are us trying to keep law to obtain righteousness which eventually produces the fruit I just mentioned above. This new graft or new shoot will produce the fruit of the Spirit, good fruit, desirable fruit, loving fruit. As the rootstock puts out suckers(law) which **** the life out of the graft the Lord removes them, he cleanses us continually with his blood to the root of the branch that was producing the undesired fruit. Or he cuts it off and throws it into the fire. As he cursed the fig tree to the root so it would no longer produce its fruit, he must severe the root of the power of our sin which is the law " The power of sin is the law" If we walk in love by the power of His Spirit which comes through taking every thought captive and making it obedient to righteousness by faith we are headed in the direction of his heart...love.
"Falling away from the faith". I don't believe that means losing you salvation. I believe it means falling away from the truth of our faith. By faith in Christ we are saved, but many try to keep the law to obtain righteousness, they have salvation but are like the foolish galations who had been bewitched, certainly they were saved but headed in the wrong direction, someone was preaching a false way to them and God assured them that person would bear his judgement, I believe that judgement was for the purpose of bringing that false teacher to the truth and not to harm him.
As far as our adulterous brother or sister goes, adultery is also the fruit of the law, they don't need to repent from adultery as the mainline churches are teaching, they need to repent of trying to keep the law that says thou shalt not commit adultery because that is what is empowering it, again the law is the power of sin. Adultery is one of the ten commandments, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Have we all ceased from lying, are we all honoring our parents perfectly? Do we covet? Do we lust and hate in our heart ? do we keep the sabbath holy ?are we going to hell too like the adulterer? Was not the Blood of Jesus sufficient for our righteousness? Do we not have a new covenent in his blood which abolished the old covenent which is the very law by which we judge and adulterer? Why not judge the adulterer according to the law of the spirit of life in Christ....RIGHTEOUS by faith and pray that God would give him life in that area he is struggling with. As far as rewards go, God does not wait till we die to judge our fruit, when he see's it ...he is longsuffering and patient, gentle and kind or loving toward us that we might repent, we will reap what we sow when we are walking according to the flesh, for the purpose of bringing us to repentence so we can experience the abundant life in Christ.

In summary the judgement we meet to others is indicative of our belief system, do we believe we are righteous by faith or have we fallen from the faith by believing righteousness must be earned. Do we judge others according to the law which Christ has nailed to the cross(col 2:14) ? If we judge others according to the law we also judge ourselves according to the law and the law brings condemnation. There is no condemnation for those in Christ because the law that condemns 2cor3 has been done away with. A good way to know if you are still trying to keep it on your own(self righteousness ) is to ask your self this question....Do I feel condemned in any area? If you do you don't understand the gospel of grace yet and are probably judging others according to as if there is a law that needs kept to obtain righteousness, we reap the judgement we sow to others. Not from God but from self and our false belief system which is exactly contrary to the Glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And last but not least, the word faithful as in "faithful follower of Jesus Christ" means exactly that....full of faith, not full of works necesarily, you have to remember that he who has faith but works not, his faith is counted to him as righteousness. Your brother in Christ ...Tom.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Carol: Now that you have donned your gloves, I am going to have to turn the other cheek! And the other...



 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Yea really! Whas up?


I'm glad you understand trees, and fruit, and branches etc. And I'm getting some insight into how you are applying it. So, If you know scripture, if HE is the vine, and we are the 'branch', what gets cut off? The branch! And where does it go? To the far (I'm fum da south). And what does it do? It barns!

Based on what you say:

quote:

---

he cleanses us continually with his blood to the root of the branch that was producing the undesired fruit. Or he cuts it off and throws it into the fire.

---

This is a clear cut case of 'abiding' or no! In order to be 'cleansed', the one must be abiding. Else he is on the side of judgment, in which case, he can be 'cut off'. In fact, he is cut off by nature of unbelief. Interesting how you applied it though. Nevertheless, if one is not abiding (and that is through belief) he is in sin. He does not benefit from grace! Mercy and forgiveness might still apply, however, but according to the scriptures that I read, you might not want to take the chance.

Overcome! Lest the world swamp you and you lose what you had gained.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
But don't panic!
 

---

Posted by ANM (Member # 7184) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
ANM

Let's make this easy. Just read back into the past posts by setting "Show topics from the last xx days, to 60, or 80, etc. Or, for that matter, start at the beginning of this one, and read!

But for that matter, I have to agree with you. That parable is about one's reward, and increase. Regrettably, what you do not see is that the gift is Jesus, and the reward is deeper knowledge of Him. Herein is the parable of the talents. For what was given them, (in the heavenly sense) was salvation. What increased was the Kingdom of God.

Your supposition however, fits right in with prosperity preaching. For it has an 'earthly gain' mindset, perhaps. Reaping what you sew would be to sew unto the Kingdom, and to reap thereof. And not to 'reap' of the Kingdom, makes one a slothful servant, and it will be taken from that one and given to another. That will leave him in the cold, far away from the warmth of the loving God.

You know, what you wrote is beautifully stated. I found joy in reading it. However, it came to an abrupt end when it threw me on that very last statement!!!

quote:

---

I say once saved always saved, its pretty clear to me.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Yea really! Whas up?


I'm glad you understand trees, and fruit, and branches etc. And I'm getting some insight into how you are applying it. So, If you know scripture, if HE is the vine, and we are the 'branch', what gets cut off? The branch! And where does it go? To the far (I'm fum da south). And what does it do? It barns!

Based on what you say:

quote:

---

he cleanses us continually with his blood to the root of the branch that was producing the undesired fruit. Or he cuts it off and throws it into the fire.

---

This is a clear cut case of 'abiding' or no! In order to be 'cleansed', the one must be abiding. Else he is on the side of judgment, in which case, he can be 'cut off'. In fact, he is cut off by nature of unbelief. Interesting how you applied it though. Nevertheless, if one is not abiding (and that is through belief) he is in sin. He does not benefit from grace! Mercy and forgiveness might still apply, however, but according to the scriptures that I read, you might not want to take the chance.

Overcome! Lest the world swamp you and you lose what you had gained.

---

quote:

---

Mike, if the vine is holy and it is, the branches are holy as well, and we be the branches. The branches that are cut off are the ones below the original grafted spot or branches that have reverted back to the root stalk which would be....THE LAW.

---

quote:

---

The other question is this, "belief in what"? I believe he is talking about believing that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to whosoever believes. As each though is taken captive and made obedient to that truth, we will no longer produce the fruit of the sinful nature in that particular area because we have given God control of that area through repenting from trying to do it ourself, casting out demonic forces and inviting God to be God in that area.

---

quote:

---

The branches are not people, that thought contradicts grace.

---

quote:

---

oneinChrist


Galatians 5:24 - 26 (NLT) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.

Galatians 6:1 - 2 (NLT) 1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. 2 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ.

---

Carol what is the point of Galatians 6:1-2 if what is at hazard of being lost is not Salvation?

Reward base Salvation is what OSAS salvation is seeking to put in view.

The reason for restoring someone that has gone into sin is because if they don’t repent they will die and go to hell…this is what the Apostle Paul is putting forth.

Not losing a reward….

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

The OSAS doctrine is the reason we have the Great Apostasy taking place in the Church today….

Sin is not a big deal because all anyone is going to lose is their reward…
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 


However, I still like this as stated.

quote:

---

Mike, if the vine is holy and it is, the branches are holy as well, and we be the branches. The branches that are cut off are the ones below the original grafted spot or branches that have reverted back to the root stalk which would be....THE LAW. He is removing the law from within out conscience that we are still trying to keep contrary to the Gospel and the truth of the Spirit of God living through us and producing his fruit.

---

quote:

---

Your right, I don't believe God would break a covenent relationship with us either , especially a covenent in his blood, we are bought with a price....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
ANM:

quote:

---

Mike, if the vine is holy and it is, the branches are holy as well, and we be the branches. The branches that are cut off are the ones below the original grafted spot or branches that have reverted back to the root stalk which would be....THE LAW.

---

This is a historical perspective, not a spiritual one. It is no doubt true as stated.

~

|Concerning the parable of the talents, here is how it opens, with this sentence:

Mat 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

|Immediately it says that "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." and it goes on to tell the story of the three 'stewards' of the Kingdom. Welp! Keeping in mind that the parable represents the Kingdom of Heaven, let's look at what happened to that poor guy who brought no increase. At the end of the parable the poor guy is told:

Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

|That surely does sound like he is 'losing' his reward.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

|But woe and begone, what saith it next?

Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

|Is this the picture of someone losing their reward??? No, I tell you. He lost more than that. So it stands solidly, and unmistakably, that the parable is about salvation. (Who will read the word the way it is written?) For who would be cast into outer darkness by a 'loving' God just for losing money??? Osasers would do well to consider this lest they lead someone astray.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Just how much more serious can "Weeping and gnashing of teeth be?" I don't think, you have even considered it. It is as serious as it gets!!! This is what our Lord is trying to convey by the parable! This is how bad it is that people will not consider. If you don't get this, you don't understand the gravity of the whole episode. It is bad serious!! The people who are weeping and gnashing teeth, are they who are foaming at the mouth in anger towards God, because 'they' had it wrong! They ended up in Hades, hence the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Gnnnnnashing! It is bitter. It is even hard for me to consider, it hurts so much.

And Carol, I am not the least bit jealous, or my whole message is in vain. The commentary is wrong!

---

quote:

---

Is this the longest running post yet? (Besides "If you are new here, please read.")

---

We don't have "If you are new here, please read." anymore. I, for one, will miss Keifer.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Ok, I guess my previous post was not short enough.

Let me try this. A person sincerely believes in Jesus for 5 years and then goes to University and stops believing this "Jesus nonsense" and never again believes it, and dies.

OSAS, is this person saved because he believed for 5 years?

thanks, eden
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
No Eden! The logic for some is that the person never was saved. Of course we don't know; but what is interesting about that is that, if we don't know that he was saved, then we surely don't either know that he wasn't. But it is easier for some to assume that he wasn't. ??? It is what works for them. Of course, that view fits well with osas, so it reinforces the concept to them making it harder to pry them from their belief.


What happened to Keifer? I though the post was still coming to the top, which shows activity.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

---

quote:

---

Since when is hades outer darkness?

---

---

quote:

---

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I didn't want to aggrevate the situation at the other post, so since this fits over here, well!

quote:

---

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

---

There is a problem that I see with this logic! Causing 'little ones' to stumble, or fall, carries with it the notion that they are 'caused' to experience separation from God. That is the notion of what it means to stumble. They become filled with doubt about the truth. But according to oasas, this cannot happen. Therefore the concern is entirely misplaced.

---

quote:

---

If you judge others as sinners according to the law then you probably have judged yourself the same way,

---

quote:

---

God says righteous by faith, you say righteous and saved by what I do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I know what you believe ANM, and I am saddened. I wish I could say something edifying. Hummmm! How about this? It says that He will not blot out their names from the book of life. Well! It stands to reason that if they are written there, they got there when one was saved. Therefore, prior to that, their name was not there to blot out. And since it says that He will not blot out their names, what is it but that they 'met the condition' for it not to be blotted out. So if their names were not blotted out if they 'met the condition', then there must be a response for 'not meeting the condition'. It is implied, even though it is not specifically stated. That isn't the least bit hard to figure out.

Be it far from me to impose this on you. Every man stands or falls notwithstanding anyone else. You have to face Him for yourself.

~

What is by faith? Righteousness is by faith. So, how do you say that unrighteousness is covered by grace? It is not so. It you have 'righteousness' by faith, then unrighteousness is done away with by nature of the fact. But if you are in unrighteousness, and you claim to be righteous by faith, you presume.

quote:

---

If you judge others as sinners according to the law then you probably have judged yourself the same way,

---

"But it is a small matter that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment. Yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself. Yet am I not hereby justified: But He that judgeth me is the Lord." 1Cor 4

quote:

---

God says righteous by faith, you say righteous and saved by what I do.

---

You think? I don't. God says "Righteous" by faith. It is simply, 'righteous by what He does', not by what you do (actively). But if HE does it, you know it (intimately) else you don't know it, which signifies 'lack of faith', which leaves you only one recourse, which is to presume something that is not. This is tantamount to being deceived. Righteousness is not being dirty (thorn in the flesh) but looking to the Father, like an angel. That is as far off as osas. In fact, it is the very thing that justifies osas. It is the only way some can rationalize it. For nothing else makes sense.

The heart of the New Covenant is 'righteousness' which is by faith, not 'acceptance' in spite of being a mud pie. Defeat is not victory. Darkness is not light. Righteousness is not failure overlooked. And our works don't accomplish it. Not one single 'work' accomplishes it. It isn't earned. It isn't merited, but it is not impotent. It is not future tense. It is now, if we have it by faith.

---

quote:

---

If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything. Even if I am producing the fruit of the sinful nature because I am in the lifelong sanctification process I am as righteous as he is.

---

quote:

---

If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:

---

If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything. Even if I am producing the fruit of the sinful nature because I am in the lifelong sanctification process I am as righteous as he is.

---

Not!

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."

Death is separation from God, cut off from the vine, oh vinedresser, from whence we draw the parallel of being cast into the fire.

The wage of sin is to be dead!

1Jn 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship [together] with us: 'as' truly, our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jn 1:4 "And these things write we unto you, that your 'joy' may be full."

Because:

1Jn 1:5 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

SO:

1Jn 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

Sin is darkness!

1Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

That means that we are 'delivered' through the blood, for it says 'it cleanseth': not it covereth, or hideth.

The condition:

1Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light..."

The result:

"...we have fellowship one with another, [Jesus and me, or thee] and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

That is an IS, not a lifelong sanctification process, unless it takes you that long to get it. However, it usually is just a justification for clinging to sin to insist that it is lifelong.

So to quote you once again:

quote:

---

If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything.

---

If you are 'IN' Christ, which is the very same as to say (which is why we have such writings):


1Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light..."

Then there is no 'despite anything', simply:

"...we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son 'cleanseth' us from all sin."

For you cannot be in sin, and have fellowship. You may have awareness of Him, but it is not fellowship.

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."

Now, not just later!

Here is where the admonition on overcoming fits in. He who is not an overcomer, is a compromiser, who will 'justify' his condition by saying something like "Even if I am producing the fruit of the sinful nature because I am in the lifelong sanctification process I am as righteous as he is."

It is not so! You are departing from Him by sin. But Romans says: "Sin shall not have 'dominion' over you," which is to say that it cannot force you to do, or abide in it. For then you would be doing what Jesus is not, which would 'separate' you from Him.

And if sanctification is a lifelong process, what if you had only ten minutes to live from the time you met Christ? How sanctified would you be in ten minutes? If sanctification is a lifelong process, how long must you live to reach sanctification? If sanctification is a lifelong process, then clearly 'you' must have something to do with it, but you don't. So why is it a lifelong process?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by yahsway:
I keep reading that Yeshua nailed the law to the cross or that the law was nailed to the cross.

I believe it was the ordiances of the law that was nailed to the cross, meaning it was the penalty for breaking the law that was nailed to the cross.
Yeshua(Jesus) went to the cross to pay for our SINS not to do away with the Law, for He even said that He did not come to do away with the law or the prophets and that not one jot or title would pass away from the law until heaven and earth were gone away.

Yeshua paid the price we should have paid for Breaking the Laws of God.

Gods laws still stands today and if one dies withouth the blood covering and faith of/in Yeshua then he will be judged by the laws of God.

We are to have the laws of God written on our Hearts, not written on stone. Do we have a heart of flesh or a heart of stone?

If one says i believe in Yeshua, yet continues in sin, maybe he has a heart of stone. And who are those who do not inherit the kingdom of God that the bible describes?

Neither Adulters, liars, murders ect.. I think this can be found in Rev.

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, what does? Our sinful nature? or our new nature in Yeshua? What did Yeshua tell the woman who was about to be stoned after her accusers walked away?

"Go and sin no more".

I believe the heart of the matter is this. We cant really judge who is saved and who isnt. We do not have the capability to read the hearts and minds of people. There is only one possible way to get a clue as to whether one might be saved and that is looking at their life/lifestyle, the fruits they produc ect...

But even then we could be decieved in that Yeshua said that MANY in that day would say But Lord, Lord look what we did in your name ect..

And Yeshua tells them to depart from Me I never knew you, you workers of iniquity(lawlessness)

I believe the OSAS doctrine is a deception. I know sooo many people who believe in it and truly live like the devil himself and they are not afraid because as one of my friends said to me years ago "It does not matter what I do or dont do, I believe in Jesus."

How sad, seems like a life wasted when we should be letting His life work thru us, and letting Him do that work thru us, instead some cheapen what He has done and say okay, i accept Him because He doesnt require anything from me and doesnt care how i live after i accept him because once saved im always saved. Thats a great deal! But thats really a deception.

But Yeshua is coming back for a spotless bride. thourouly cleansed by Him, sold out completely to Him, an unadulterated Bride. Shalom

---

quote:

---

I never hear any of you anti Once sealed Always Sealed people talk about the Prodical Son?

Whay is that?

---

quote:

---

I never hear any of you anti Once sealed Always Sealed people talk about the Prodical Son?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Uh huh yahsway! Good post. But that is so funny where you almost said, "You will know them by their 'produce'. I hope none of it is tomatoes!


ANM, I find what you say agreeable sometimes: Other times,strange.

Said ye:

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death. I believe that scripture is to unbelievers only, otherwise everytime we sin we would be dead again. ....think on that a minute.

Well, If you think that Rom 6:23 is for unbelievers, you are not alone. Almost the entire Christian faith accepts the verse in that way. But here! Listen to James:

Jas 1:14 " But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed 5) Then when lust has conceivedit bringeth forth sin, and sin when it is finished bringeth forth death."

You are not dead in tresspasses and sin, as the unsaved, but you are dieing.

Concerning the passage on 1 John, the way you are using it would be presumption.

....think on this a minute:

James 4:4, where he is talking to Christians, mind you, "Ye adulterers and adultresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is emnity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world, is the enemy of God."

For you osasers, that sounds ominous!

He said that I said:

Sin is darkness!

So ye said:
Sin is not darkness, believing you are justified by your actions is darkness, believing you are justified by faith is light.

Huh? believing you are justified by your actions is not sin? It is the sin of unbelief.

Ye said:
Cleanses from all sin is a lifelong sanctification process, to walk in the light means to believe we are righteous and to take every thought captive and make it obedient.

That sounds like works to me i.e. being justified by your actions. You didn't read what I said about sanctification, did you. You make the assertionthat it is a lifelong process, but it is based on what you think, not on truth. I understand.I have to stop here. I'll read more of it later.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

And an enemy to God would be someone trying to keep law therefore producing a love for the things of this world.

---

---

quote:

---

Apart from law sin is dead.

---

quote:

---

....Let me try to explain my view on sin...first, the sin that LEADS TO DEATH.

---

quote:

---

Our issue that causes us to produce the fruit of the sinful nature is "unbelief". We don't believe that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in every area of our life yet. Subconsciously we still think we need to keep law to attain righteousness,

---

quote:

---

???

quote:

---

Lets say we happen to be coveting, we know coveting is the fruit of the sinful nature, the coveting is no longer sin because the law for righteousness has ben abolished, the coveting is now fruit, fruit that reveals Im striving to keep law which is the sin. I simply acknowledge the fruit, confess the "sin"

---

---

NO! No no!
Don't covet! That is preferrable to 'acknowledging' and confessing the sin, which you accept as 'the norm'. The fruit of which you refer, which leads to the sin in the first place is "The Fruit of Unbelief." Yet you said that you have all of the faith that you need? If you have all the faith that you need, you will not bear the fruit of unbelief, which manifests the sin.

If you are 'dead', then you avoid 'striving to keep the law'. ??? If you are dead, (this is where faith comes in) you are dead to sinning. If you are trying to keep the law, then by nature of failing to keep the law, you produce the sin. (This sounds like what you are trying to say. I will give you credit!) If you are trying to keep the law, then you are alive (not Him).


Pay attention! You said, "The just shall live by faith," but they die by sin. Remember, it says that the 'just' shall live by faith. Therefore if they die by sin, they are, by nature of not 'living' by faith, not 'living' - but dying. (Not as though they are cut off from Him. But they could be if it continues.)

quote:

---

We have passed from death to life

---

quote:

---

I think the strange thing you are missing as most of the christian church is this....

---

 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Mike,

"Therefore you have not passed from death to life in the fullness that He intends."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Therefore you are not saved, right?

So still, once saved always saved turns out to be the truth, even after all the twisting that was done.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
When someone rationalizes scripture to fit their understanding, they have only judgment to look forward to, no matter how rosey they think things are. If osas turns out to be meaningless, it is going to hurt. They who 'fear' God, do not leave this to chance, or trust their neighbor who 'agrees' with them.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Ephesians 2:4 - 10 (NLT)

4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. 8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.


Ephesians 2:4 - 10 (KJV)

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Saying you can lose Salvation is equivalent to saying that you can be un-Redeemed; That the price that was paid becomes somewhow unpaid.

We had no part in making that payment. How could we unpay it after it was paid by another?

You can believe it or not believe it, but you cant undo it. Otherwise Christ's sacrifice would be rendered 'of no effect'.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
If that is the case, where falls the sinner? The price was paid for them, but they don't benefit. Likewise, for the believer, the price is paid. It does not become unpaid. But the payment is of none effect if one is not in the Ark, to take the ride which another paid for.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

---

Qwote! 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

---

Here is where I have trouble with 'translations' other than the "Authorized King James Version." When you tell someone to read the word the way it is written, how can they if it is subtly modified, which so much of each recent translation is. And some of these translations only 'feed' the imagination that a reader already has because the translator already thinks the same way.

KJV
Eph 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,"
Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"

The Billy Graham Library is in Charlotte N.C. Come visit it!

So, you say you cannot see a difference! I will keep it simple and point out only one: "By grace ye are saved." That is different than in the translation above. The above reads: "It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!"

The difference is that the translation above says "have been saved." The King James Version, true to the truth states, "Are saved!" There is a difference between tenses. The above translation is past tense. The KJV says "are," present tense. This is significant in that one's salvation is maintained by abiding in the Ark (a present activity), where the above assumes no responsibility, considering it to be done. (This is not the meaning of done!) This goes back to what I said about participation. We participate, or we do not benefit. If one puts 'saved' as being past tense, then there is no participation after the fact of one's salvation. Therefore there is no 'obedience' needed. That would be 'predestined' in spite of one's self. This is not the intention of the Spirit.

Now, the law still is in effect. How to fulfill the law is what has changed. One does not disregard the law and get away with it. It is enforced.

Let's look at this: Government tries to regulate everything. Here is the difference between the way our forefathers established our government to work, in a nutshell, and the way so many other governments work. Whereas our forefathers desired "Limited Government" other governments try to control everything, which is miserable. (But we are tending towards this very thing with a vengence.) But for illustration: If for example we were to make a law to regulate the weather, it would not be a law. We cannot control the weather. The ingredient that makes a 'law' to be what it is is the fact that it CAN be 'enforced'. We cannot enforce a law to control the weather, therefore the law would not be a law because it would be impotent. It would be wishful thinking.

But in our Christian lives, the law 'still applies', though it is not by our 'striving to accomplish it' that it is is effected. That does not mean that it isn't a requirement to be fulfilled. And here is where we are either 'in' or 'out'. Being 'out' is a dangerous place to be.

For some say that grace makes one to be a saved ball of dirt by something "HE did" an eon ago. But that is not what grace does. Grace effects the necessary change in the present. This is why we are either in or out, in that, some see grace as 'pardoning' in His eyes; whereas that belongs to forgiveness. But grace changes, if through 'faith' one understands this: For by grace you are saved, by faith (that is, as you believe) in that which He 'is' doing (grace), and we are therefore benefiting thereof, by His grace (by His doing what needs to be done) by the very believing, which is our part, and without which nothing happens. It is our obedience, so that it could read, "By grace are ye 'being' saved, through faith, which you don't have, but it is imparted to you by your very believing, which is your participation in His saving grace, which enables His Grace to be 'manifest' in your life.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

---

Mike,

"Therefore you have not passed from death to life in the fullness that He intends."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Therefore you are not saved, right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:

---

Mike,

"Therefore you have not passed from death to life in the fullness that He intends."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Therefore you are not saved, right?

---

It is not a question of 'saved' here. It is a matter of 'Treasure laid up in Heaven'. The fullness that He intends fits the description of 'Know Him'. Just because one does not know Him in the fullness does not mean that he or she is not saved. Nevertheless, one does not want to take anything for granted lest they take too much for granted.

"No one putting his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the Kingdom." They are not fit to receive the Kingdom of God. It would be like how living on junk food is to the body. It cannot be healthy and full of vibrance. But there is still a body there. Yet, if one persists, presumably one could 'expire' from malnutrition. In that case a malnurished saint could be thought of like a dead flower planted among those flush with beauty and life, there in heaven. I should think that the gardener would pluck out that flower and put one there that is pretty. (The parable of the talents expressed differently!)

---

Then on the other hand, what do we look back at? I say we look back to the law, its the wineskin thing, the leaven of the pharisees thing, the foolish galation thing, the falling from grace thing....look ahead to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith. Lots wife looked back.....
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I bet Lot's wife is still saved - too! Uh-huh!


I have always thought of 'looking back' as looking back to before you were saved. It is a loving the world thing, which is confirmed by what happened to Lot's wife! That doesn't seem to parallel with a 'law', or 'wineskin', or leaven, or foolish thing! Those Hebrews who are now completed Jews might be predisposed to look at it this way. Perhaps this is you? But I see it as a looking back to the world thing. That would be a falling from grace thing.

Concerning Galations, and the 'works' thing; just because it is not by works, it doesn't mean that we are not having the law fulfilled in us. Otherwise we are not abiding in Him, but rather 'in the flesh'. Do we know what the Bible says about that? So to justify the misery of perpetual failure, do we rationalize it to mean that we are clean, even though we are dirty. That is what it means to some; most; in fact, almost everybody. This was Paul's beef.

So he addresses it. To be dirty is to be outside the law. There is no justification for that.
 

---

Posted by ANM (Member # 7184) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I bet Lot's wife is still saved - too! Uh-huh!


I have always thought of 'looking back' as looking back to before you were saved. It is a loving the world thing, which is confirmed by what happened to Lot's wife! That doesn't seem to parallel with a 'law', or 'wineskin', or leaven, or foolish thing! Those Hebrews who are now completed Jews might be predisposed to look at it this way. Perhaps this is you? But I see it as a looking back to the world thing. That would be a falling from grace thing.

Concerning Galations, and the 'works' thing; just because it is not by works, it doesn't mean that we are not having the law fulfilled in us. Otherwise we are not abiding in Him, but rather 'in the flesh'. Do we know what the Bible says about that? So to justify the misery of perpetual failure, do we rationalize it to mean that we are clean, even though we are dirty. That is what it means to some; most; in fact, almost everybody. This was Paul's beef.

So he addresses it. To be dirty is to be outside the law. There is no justification for that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
You confuse me ANM. The first part of this post sounded really right on! However, when you said this, you really opened a can of worms:

Qwote! The jews are saved because they believe in the messiah, they just don't know his name yet.

That tells me where you really are at, for it is impossible for the Jews who do not know Jesus, to be saved (present tense). If they don't even know His Name, they certainly are not. So that throws the rest of what you say you believe, in complete doubt. Either you don't really believe it, or you have a formulation which is doctrinally substantive, but without Christ in it. You have revealed yourself. What are you really about? For all I know now, you are really a Muslim. What say ye? Do you come here to mock the forum?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I don't knnow of any Jew since Jesus was crucified, who is saved unless he is a believer in Christ Jesus, and under HIS blood. There is one name given under heaven whereby man shall be saved. That is Jesus Christ. Whoso does not believe on Him is not saved.

This is fundamental to almost every denomination that I know. It is because scripture declares it. So your view would place you borderng on a cult.

(I would have rather avoided this.)

---

Your view puts you in the judgement seat, say what you will, I disagree.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I guess that everybody is saved, hhh? Nobody goes to hell. In fact, it probably doesn't exist?

Actually, the way that you make a stand on this probably means that you think that Buddah is another way to heaven?

It is not 'judgment' to discern that when Jesus says that He is the way, the truth and the life, that no man comes to the Father but by Him, He means tho no man is saved by any other person. He is the link. He is the missing key which one must find. The door is closed and locked without Him. Jesus we preach, and the way of the Cross cannot be shorted. He who comes in another way beside the gate is a thief and robber.

Is this the Rodesianridgeback? Because you sound like him/her.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, Michael Harrison, I agree with your post right above this one. I was recently thinking what a wild thing it actually is that I actually believe that someone--anyone--has raised from the dead???

But the Bible makes it very believable, thanks be to God.

love, eden
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

---

The ministration of death and condemnation is the law, the ministration of righteousness is the spirit, you live under law if you like, there is no condemnation in that except for your condemnation for yourself and those around you that you condemn with the law

---

quote:

---

not only am I fre from the wages of sin which is the transgression of the law, I am fre from the power of the law.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I guess that everybody is saved, hhh? Nobody goes to hell. In fact, it probably doesn't exist?

Actually, the way that you make a stand on this probably means that you think that Buddah is another way to heaven?

It is not 'judgment' to discern that when Jesus says that He is the way, the truth and the life, that no man comes to the Father but by Him, He means tho no man is saved by any other person. He is the link. He is the missing key which one must find. The door is closed and locked without Him. Jesus we preach, and the way of the Cross cannot be shorted. He who comes in another way beside the gate is a thief and robber.

Is this the Rodesianridgeback? Because you sound like him/her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I'll be glad to read your post. I may learn something. However, to say that any Jews since Jesus was crucified are saved without knowing His name, is serious error. They cannot be saved A.D. but by that name.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ANM:
Anyway, Gods alot bigger than we can fathom, I figure if we are gonna come up with truths based on the word of god, then we ought to take it all into account. Theres alot of different belief systems floating around, some right and some wrong. The wrong ones are usually birthed out of a previous false belief system and so on. I certainly do not know everything,but what Im pretty darn sure about ...Im pretty darn sure about based on pondering lots o different views. Some people just want to be right even if they are wrong, they're not really concerned with truth, they are more concerned with being the know it all, they are at this point(theres always hope) unteachable. Pride plays a role in this I think. Anyway, heres the scripture I promised ya, actually if you read the whole chapter and take all things into account you'll see what I mean, don't take one scripture and form a belief system around it....it will be false. Ther best way to really understand what something means is to ask the Lord what it means, as far as Im concerned until you ask him...your probably wrong no matter where you heard it from, thats a good rule of thumb anyway.


romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I was going to ask what denomination you identify with, but I remember that you said you have been Catholic, and then Assemblies. So then you said that one should go directly to the source. I agree with you there. However something isn't adding up. I'm not quite sure that you have gone to the source, properly so.

---

quote:

---

Im not counting on anything of myself, Jesus Christ is the believer in me.

---

That statement creates a wonderful opportunity to plug the KJV concerning the translating of the "Faith of" Jesus as written therein. Some weaker translations think nothing of stating it as "Faith in" wherever the phrase is found (Particularly the NIV!!!) But there is a difference and they are not true to it.

The "Faith of" Jesus would be what you describe here. It is quite true, to be observed. However, the KJV also uses "Faith in" where appropiate. By your comment, you seem to have eliminated this part of the 'equation', passing it off as either irrelevant, or nonexistant. Such is not the case. Your 'participation' IS necessary, for that is how He created us. And your participation is the "Faith in" part, which realizes the "Faith of" part only when practiced, exercised, or initiated. In other words, if you were perhaps talking to a nonbeliever, you might council the one to 'choose' to believe, for it is an act of the will, and it is a choice without which no transaction between the one and Him will take place.

Jesus Christ is the one with faith in Himself, as you have stated which would be as per the Eph verses 8&9; but it is not realized except by 'believing' in Him, which effects the 'receiving' of Him, else the 'faith' is in vain. For many believe in Him, but not unto receiving Him. They do not benefit by believing without receiving, which requires submissive belief, which means "going under the cross."

By your estimation, everyone everywhere is saved because Jesus is the believer, which settles it for everyone.



You exist, therefore you participate, or don't. Thereisaplace for those who don't, or who think they do but don't.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I'm not sure you are unsure about my being sure, so that where you are sure is not where I am sure who is sure or not sure.

I am glad for you that you are sure if you are saved because of it. It's just that there a couple of nagging issues that may be of concern which possibly indicate misplaced faith, or misunderstood mechanics, which may or may not be a big deal. But if you are sure, you must answer to Him, not anyone else. So you have to be sure for yourself. No one else can, just like no one else can 'believe' for you. You must believe, and even Jesus cannot believe for you if you do not believe (unless you ask Him to because you are having trouble doing it, in which case you exercise some degree of faith in reaching out to Him).
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by WildB:
"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

---

 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Are you saved wyldbe? Because you seem paranoid, which is not a fruit of the Spirit.

2Ti 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I have discussed the difference between "Faith in" and the "Faith of" in this forum before, as Eden and oneinchrist will remember. There is a difference.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
And rather than start a new topic, here is the end of the arguement for asos. (Sos! I am sorry to be so mean. But....)

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

For this corruptible: If it were otherwise, it would be the incorruptable, present tense accepted. But it is not! Until one puts on the incorruption, one is still corruptable. If it is corruptible it is capable of losing out by its very nature. So that if:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

...we are still corruptible, then we do not inherit!

Amen!

I love you all. Even if you dissagree, I do still, because He does.
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
You keep it up wyldB. Your repetitions of the same post speak for themselves, for all to see. Your reproof is without merit. If what you say is true, then you don't have anything to worry about. But it appears that you do worry.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
I can't speak for WildB, and he doesn't need me to. But I think he just wants to remind all of us of the huge importance of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

We love you too Michael...you grouch.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Well thanks! It is so rare that anyone calls me that. That is not wyldV's concern though. He is concerned that once one is saved, they are always so, and that what I say will ruin it for them, making 'not once saved always saved null'. Therefore he would be wrong. He cannot accept that, so he perpetually makes the sign of the cross, and mumbles as though he is warding off a vampire who is after 'little ones'.

What is true is what matters. No matter whether you want it to be, the truth will not cater to your wishes Cain. You must submit to the truth rather than 'expect' your offering to be acceptable because you think it is better.

He is supposing to add afflictions to my bonds, preaching Christ of contention to beguile unstable souls and make me look like a villian because I cannot keep silent every time he trashes the floor after my posts.

Does that make me grouchy? What he says is not edifying, but destructive, harming unstable souls. For on my part, better to err on the side of safety (if it were error) than to presume, which is what osas does, eliminating the 'fear' of God and the need to be "instant in season, and out." For asos eliminates one's responsibility to God and one another, disregarding the equivalant of the Ten Commandments, condensed into two, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength, and thy neighbor as thyself," makng one unaccountable, and without penalty. Why should one bother if they are saved anyway?
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
To bad we are not children, tossed to and fro, and carried about by the sleight of your sillyness and your long winded post.

Repent and harden not your heart as those that did in the provocation.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Michael! That is not what we teach, and you know it. Anyone with a brain who can read what we've posted will know that you are making false accusations.


 

---

Posted by ANM (Member # 7184) on :
 
Ya, stop your sillyness michael....that is all.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Hey ANM! Hi ya!
 

---

Posted by ANM (Member # 7184) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Hey ANM! Hi ya!

---

quote:

---

Michael! That is not what we teach, and you know it. Anyone with a brain who can read what we've posted will know that you are making false accusations.

---

quote:

---

To bad we are not children, tossed to and fro, and carried about by the sleight of your sillyness and your long winded post.

---

Thou sayest it wyldb! Thou abidest by it to stand or fall accordingly. I am glad you are so well anchored in your choices.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;


Tts 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.


Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.


Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
ANM

Hi ya = Hello. It's nice to see you.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Cain rebuked his brother sharply, but he wasn't in the proper relationship to do so.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Who are you number two? Are you related to number one; because you usually don't get to be number two without some kind of connection, such as a relationship, or friendship? Or are you here, and number two because you just happened to be the first to come across the bbs when it went on line? I have to say, it has always been nagging me.


Carol: ANM means Hi-yah as if stated with a shrill, drawn out Hiiiiieeeeee, followed by a sharp, and punctuated "yah," with a grunt incorporated therein, or following! I can hear it! Then, whack! (Then some Hollywood special effect sound...) It is a very identifiable karate movie expression one makes to sound like they are a security guard with karate experience, to impress the foe. It is supposed to make them stand down, or run!


That is sthyllinesth NAM! It is purely a 'happy' term spoken by those who do not believe that they will be penalized for immorality, and who cling to the doctrine of asos for security in spite of reckoning with impending judgment in the fear of God.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Yeah, okay, (ahem)

Hiiiiieeeeee...


Yag! OW! Ouuuch! OW! OW! OWuuuuhhiiiieeeeee...
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Carol, yew are sooooooo funny! One moment you have me worried. The next you make life worthwhile.

Hiii eee ya!
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
'I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.—1 COR. ix. 26-27.

OBSERVE,
(1.) How earnestly Paul sought the kingdom of heaven. - "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air."—Ver. 26. It was long after his conversion that Paul writes in this manner. He could say, "To me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." He felt it better to depart and be with Christ. He knew there was a crown laid up for him; and yet see how earnest he was to advance in the divine life. He was like one at the Grecian games running for a prize. This is the way all converted persons should seek salvation. "So run that ye may obtain." It is common for many to sit down after conversion, and say, I am safe, I do not need to strive any more. But Paul pressed toward the mark.

(2.) One particular in which he was very earnest.—"I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection." He had observed in the Grecian games, that those who were to run and fight, were very attentive to this: "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things."—Ver. 25. This was one thing that Paul strove for, to be temperate in all things, in eating and drinking, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection."

(3.) His reason for all this earnestness.—"Lest when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Not that Paul had not an assurance of his salvation; but he felt deeply that his high office in the Church would not save him, although he was one of the apostles—the apostle of the Gentiles—one that had laboured more than all the rest; though many had been converted under his ministry, he knew that still that would not keep him from being a castaway. Judas had preached to others, and yet was cast away. Paul felt also, that if he lived a wicked life, he would surely be cast away. He knew there was an indissoluble connection between living in sin and being cast away; and, therefore, it was a constant motive to him to holy diligence. What he feared, was, being "a castaway." It is taken from the trying of metals—the dross, or part that is thrown away, is said to be reprobate, or cast away.

Robert Murray M'Cheyne

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/d.haslam/mccheyne/castaway.htm
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
It doesn't matter that you say you're born again. Any work you do to earn or keep your salvation after saying that you've accepted the work that Jesus did for you is evidence that you don't believe the work is finished.


This subjects you to the penalty of the Sabbath breaker in Numbers 15. His was a a physical death, but yours will be a spiritual one, because by continuing to work after the work is done you're saying that Jesus didn't finish the job so you have to complete it and save yourself.


It means you don't believe He saved you, and that means you haven't done the one and only thing He told you to do; “Believe in the One He has sent.”

It means you aren't saved.

If you believe that you can lose your salvation because of your behavior, it means that you don't believe Jesus took all of the sins of your life to the cross (Col 2:13-15), and therefore you don't believe He saved you completely (Hebr. 7:25).


It means that you don't believe God has accepted responsibility for keeping you saved (2 Cor. 1:21-22) and you have to finish the job yourself by meeting some standard of behavior.


That means that you're working to keep your self saved after your work of salvation was finished, which means you're subjecting yourself to the penalty of the Sabbath breaker in Numbers 15. It means that you aren't saved.

There isn't much time left for the Church. The Lord could come while you're reading this. Please consider these things carefully.

Make sure you're really saved by grace through faith.

Not by works, lest anyone boast. (Ephes. 2:8-9)

You can't be working to become saved and you can't be working to stay saved. You are either forever saved or you were never saved.

Remember, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:5)

You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo

quote:

---

You are either forever saved or you were never saved.

---

Judas: “Once Saved” – “Forever Lost”

Was Lucifer always the Devil? Was he not once a perfect anointed cherub of God who fell through the sin of pride (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-19)? "The angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 6) also fell from a perfect position. Did not they all possess eternal life in the present tense until it was forfeited? The same can be said of Adam and Eve. Did not they once possess eternal life (present tense) based conditionally upon their obedience? Yes, it is possible to lose eternal life of your own free will. Otherwise these would have never lost their eternal life. How much more are we accountable to God in our present condition of regeneration through the blood of Christ. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?" (Hebrews 2:3).

What about Judas Iscariot? Some say Judas was never a true apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ. They rightly consider his end but never truly consider what the Bible says about his beginning. Thus many believe he was a false apostle, though not one Scripture calls him a false apostle. He was an apostle who apostatized.

Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one's profession of faith and practices. As I have heard it termed so many times, only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider. The world or unbeliever can't apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can't fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.

Acts 1:16-26 tells of Peter and the disciples choosing another apostle to fill the vacancy left by Judas. Verse 16 speaks of the Scripture being fulfilled that was spoken by the Holy Ghost concerning Judas. Notice verse 17, "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. " Also notice in verse 20, "And his bishopric [the charge of instructing and govern­ing in spiritual concerns; office] let another take." Concerning the choosing of a new apostle, verse 25 says, "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship [the office or dignity of an apostle], from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." How could Judas fall from a position appointed to him by our Lord Himself if he never really was an apostle? According to the scriptures a qualification for a bishop is one who is blameless (1 Timothy 3:2). If a bishop or elder of the church is to be blameless, how much more an apostle who would be a founder of churches. Do we really think Jesus would choose an officer of the church contrary to His Word? Men may, but not our Lord!

On certain occasions such as on the mount of transfiguration, the apostles were called by their specific names such as James, John, and Peter. Very often apostles were named specifically in certain settings of whom Judas was also named specifically and referred to as he who betrayed Jesus. When the Scripture says "his disciples," "my disciples," or "the twelve" without specific names, should not we believe that it includes Judas as being numbered with the twelve (Acts L17; Matthew 10:1; 11:1; Mark 4:10)? He was part of the ministry from the beginning. It is interesting to note that after Judas betrayed Christ and committed suicide, the Gospel writers refer to the disciples collectively as "the eleven" (Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9, 33). Henceforth all Scripture quotations in this tract that speak of "his disciples" and especially "the twelve," include Judas.

In my personal study of Judas, the Lord wanted me, once a believer in unconditional eternal security ("Once Saved, Always Saved"), to see through His Word that Judas was once a believer who apostatized unto perdition. Through that study, the Spirit revealed about eighty-five other verses (not mentioned in this tract) which refer to "his disciples," of whom Judas was a part. Also found in the four Gospels are eight references to "thy disciples," nineteen references to "the disciples," and twenty-one references to "the twelve. "

Psalm 41:9 says of Judas, "Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." Notice the expressions in this verse: mine own double ownership; familiar-intimate, close, unreserved converse; friend-as Abraham was the friend of God; I trusted-the Lord trusted Judas! Jesus also called Judas his friend even after Judas betrayed Him with a kiss (Matthew 26:49-50). Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends (Zechariah 13:6). Jesus never called the Pharisees His friends.

Let us look at many other verses that give us undeniable proof that Judas was once saved. We find the following:

He was a child of the bridechamber (Matthew 9:15).

He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus called unto Him His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1-13). See also Mark 6:7-13 and Luke 9:1-6.

Jesus told His disciples that if anyone would reject them or their message from Him, they would receive severe judgment (Matthew 10:14-15).

Judas was a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).

In Luke 12:32 Jesus says to His disciples, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

He once heard and followed the Good Shepherd (John 10:27).

"He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matthew 10:40).

He was part of Jesus' family (Matthew 12:48-50).

Jesus said that His heavenly Father was the disciples' heavenly Father by using the terms your, thy, and our Father in relation to His disciples' relationship with His Father (Matthew 10:20; 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 14, 15, 18, 26, 32; 7:11).

Judas was given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13:10-11; Hebrews 6:4-6).

His eyes saw and his ears heard-he understood (Matthew 13:16).

"Then they [Judas was there] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33).

Matthew 19:27-28 says, "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye [always plural in the Greek] which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Judas was not faithful unto the end; therefore, he forfeited the promise of a throne in heaven. Judas' fall did not negate the fact that he was promised a throne. But that promise was conditional, like all God's promises.

Judas partook of the Passover. Jesus said of it in Matthew 26:18 "I will keep the Passover at thy house with my disciples." "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve" (Matthew 26:20). See Luke 14:25-35 for Jesus' definition of being His disciple (Love Him with all your heart, deny self, and take up your cross and follow Him, forsaking all else).

"And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him" (John 13:2). Not until after the washing of the disciples' feet did Satan enter into Judas to execute the betrayal of Jesus (John 13:26-27). This was the second time recorded that Satan entered into Judas. The first time was in Luke 22:3-4 when Judas conspired with the chief priests to betray Jesus. If Satan was always in Judas, why did he need to enter into him on two different occasions?

Judas was not the only one that Satan used so masterfully. What about Peter? When Jesus rebuked him saying, "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23). Whether Satan entered in or not, he turned Peter so masterfully that Jesus had to address the devil as if Peter was not even there. Does that mean that Peter was not Jesus' disciple?

What about John 6:70? "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" This was a future prophecy not yet fulfilled at that time but recorded in the present tense as was Isaiah 9:6 ("For unto us a child is born ..."). Compare also the terminology in Psalm 41:9 which refers to Jesus and Judas one thousand years later-spoken in the present tense.

In Matthew 17:22-23 Jesus foretells His betrayal. Verse 23 gives the disciples' response, "And they were exceeding sorry." Judas was exceeding sorry. He apparently did not know he would be the one to betray Jesus.

Judas was called, commissioned, chosen, and ordained an apostle of Christ by our Lord Himself. He preached repentance, healed the sick, cast out devils, and had the treasury bag. John 4:2 says he baptized others. Mark 9:35-41 says he belonged to Jesus. Note especially verse 35, "the twelve," and verse 41, "because ye belong to Christ." He believed on Jesus (John 2:11). John 12:4 says, "Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him." Both statements in this verse are true. He was a disciple who also then betrayed his Lord, became a devil (John 6:70), a thief (John 12:6), a murderer, and a traitor (someone who once belonged to a person or a cause but betrayed the cause). You can't betray what you never pledged allegiance to. Through covet­ousness he was drowned in destruction and perdition (1 Timothy 6:9-10), and through transgression he fell (Acts 1:25). He became lost and the son of perdition (John 17:12), and went to his own place (hell), whereas before his fall he was destined to go to heaven.

These points constitute ample evidence that Judas once belonged to Jesus. Yet he obviously fell from his first love. Many believe that the Scriptures that speak of the end of Judas' life mean he was always lost and destined for hell from the beginning. But if this is true, then does that mean that all the Scriptures that speak of his belonging to Christ mean he was always saved and went to heaven? Of course not! There is only one logical, Scriptural explanation: he was once saved and became lost. If he had lived and not apostatized, he would have been called a Christian with the other disciples in Acts 11:26. The Bible teaches that throughout the entire Christian life, salvation is conditional and present tense. It also teaches that the saved always have a strong hope for the final inheritance of eternal life. It teaches that sal­vation comes by faith and repentance that produces good works of obedience through God's grace and our love for the Lord. We must persevere by God's power (His part), "through faith" (our part) (1 Peter 1:5). And we are preserved in Jesus Christ our Lord, living for Him (the Word). If we go back to the world (forsaking the Word), we commit spiritual adultery. According to the Scriptures, if we die in this condition of sin, we cannot hope for heaven to be our eternal home. Let us continue to look "unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), lest we also fall away unto perdition.

-Dennis Conley
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Judas was never a believer and therefore never saved. Jesus addressed a group that was following Him and said, "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him." (John 6:64).

Then, addressing the 12 disciples Jesus said, "'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him" (John 6:70-71).

Jesus knew He had to go to the cross and chose Judas as a disciple because He knew that he would betray Him.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo you could not have even read what I posted...

you responded in less than 3 minutes...

you are the epitome of the OSAS mentality…

you are not as the Berean’s to study and see if something is true or not, you have been taught the lies of the apostates and are happy to die not knowing the truth…

you need to examine the scriptures, see the warnings, they apply to believer as well as the lost….

2 Thess. 2:1 -
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Why don’t you try to answer some of the question the article I posted addresses instead of sticking your head in the sand!

Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one's profession of faith and practices. As I have heard it termed so many times, only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider. The world or unbeliever can't apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can't fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.

Acts 1:16-26 tells of Peter and the disciples choosing another apostle to fill the vacancy left by Judas. Verse 16 speaks of the Scripture being fulfilled that was spoken by the Holy Ghost concerning Judas. Notice verse 17, "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. " Also notice in verse 20, "And his bishopric [the charge of instructing and govern¬ing in spiritual concerns; office] let another take." Concerning the choosing of a new apostle, verse 25 says, "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship [the office or dignity of an apostle], from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." How could Judas fall from a position appointed to him by our Lord Himself if he never really was an apostle? According to the scriptures a qualification for a bishop is one who is blameless (1 Timothy 3:2). If a bishop or elder of the church is to be blameless, how much more an apostle who would be a founder of churches. Do we really think Jesus would choose an officer of the church contrary to His Word? Men may, but not our Lord!

On certain occasions such as on the mount of transfiguration, the apostles were called by their specific names such as James, John, and Peter. Very often apostles were named specifically in certain settings of whom Judas was also named specifically and referred to as he who betrayed Jesus. When the Scripture says "his disciples," "my disciples," or "the twelve" without specific names, should not we believe that it includes Judas as being numbered with the twelve (Acts L17; Matthew 10:1; 11:1; Mark 4:10)? He was part of the ministry from the beginning. It is interesting to note that after Judas betrayed Christ and committed suicide, the Gospel writers refer to the disciples collectively as "the eleven" (Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9, 33). Henceforth all Scripture quotations in this tract that speak of "his disciples" and especially "the twelve," include Judas.

In my personal study of Judas, the Lord wanted me, once a believer in unconditional eternal security ("Once Saved, Always Saved"), to see through His Word that Judas was once a believer who apostatized unto perdition. Through that study, the Spirit revealed about eighty-five other verses (not mentioned in this tract) which refer to "his disciples," of whom Judas was a part. Also found in the four Gospels are eight references to "thy disciples," nineteen references to "the disciples," and twenty-one references to "the twelve. "

Psalm 41:9 says of Judas, "Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." Notice the expressions in this verse: mine own double ownership; familiar-intimate, close, unreserved converse; friend-as Abraham was the friend of God; I trusted-the Lord trusted Judas! Jesus also called Judas his friend even after Judas betrayed Him with a kiss (Matthew 26:49-50). Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends (Zechariah 13:6). Jesus never called the Pharisees His friends.

Let us look at many other verses that give us undeniable proof that Judas was once saved. We find the following:

He was a child of the bridechamber (Matthew 9:15).

He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus called unto Him His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1-13). See also Mark 6:7-13 and Luke 9:1-6.

Jesus told His disciples that if anyone would reject them or their message from Him, they would receive severe judgment (Matthew 10:14-15).

Judas was a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).

In Luke 12:32 Jesus says to His disciples, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

He once heard and followed the Good Shepherd (John 10:27).

"He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matthew 10:40).

He was part of Jesus' family (Matthew 12:48-50).

Jesus said that His heavenly Father was the disciples' heavenly Father by using the terms your, thy, and our Father in relation to His disciples' relationship with His Father (Matthew 10:20; 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 14, 15, 18, 26, 32; 7:11).

Judas was given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13:10-11; Hebrews 6:4-6).

His eyes saw and his ears heard-he understood (Matthew 13:16).

"Then they [Judas was there] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33).

Matthew 19:27-28 says, "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye [always plural in the Greek] which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Judas was not faithful unto the end; therefore, he forfeited the promise of a throne in heaven. Judas' fall did not negate the fact that he was promised a throne. But that promise was conditional, like all God's promises.

Judas partook of the Passover. Jesus said of it in Matthew 26:18 "I will keep the Passover at thy house with my disciples." "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve" (Matthew 26:20). See Luke 14:25-35 for Jesus' definition of being His disciple (Love Him with all your heart, deny self, and take up your cross and follow Him, forsaking all else).

"And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him" (John 13:2). Not until after the washing of the disciples' feet did Satan enter into Judas to execute the betrayal of Jesus (John 13:26-27). This was the second time recorded that Satan entered into Judas. The first time was in Luke 22:3-4 when Judas conspired with the chief priests to betray Jesus. If Satan was always in Judas, why did he need to enter into him on two different occasions?

Judas was not the only one that Satan used so masterfully. What about Peter? When Jesus rebuked him saying, "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23). Whether Satan entered in or not, he turned Peter so masterfully that Jesus had to address the devil as if Peter was not even there. Does that mean that Peter was not Jesus' disciple?

What about John 6:70? "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" This was a future prophecy not yet fulfilled at that time but recorded in the present tense as was Isaiah 9:6 ("For unto us a child is born ..."). Compare also the terminology in Psalm 41:9 which refers to Jesus and Judas one thousand years later-spoken in the present tense.

In Matthew 17:22-23 Jesus foretells His betrayal. Verse 23 gives the disciples' response, "And they were exceeding sorry." Judas was exceeding sorry. He apparently did not know he would be the one to betray Jesus.

Judas was called, commissioned, chosen, and ordained an apostle of Christ by our Lord Himself. He preached repentance, healed the sick, cast out devils, and had the treasury bag. John 4:2 says he baptized others. Mark 9:35-41 says he belonged to Jesus. Note especially verse 35, "the twelve," and verse 41, "because ye belong to Christ." He believed on Jesus (John 2:11). John 12:4 says, "Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him." Both statements in this verse are true. He was a disciple who also then betrayed his Lord, became a devil (John 6:70), a thief (John 12:6), a murderer, and a traitor (someone who once belonged to a person or a cause but betrayed the cause). You can't betray what you never pledged allegiance to. Through covet¬ousness he was drowned in destruction and perdition (1 Timothy 6:9-10), and through transgression he fell (Acts 1:25). He became lost and the son of perdition (John 17:12), and went to his own place (hell), whereas before his fall he was destined to go to heaven.

These points constitute ample evidence that Judas once belonged to Jesus. Yet he obviously fell from his first love. Many believe that the Scriptures that speak of the end of Judas' life mean he was always lost and destined for hell from the beginning. But if this is true, then does that mean that all the Scriptures that speak of his belonging to Christ mean he was always saved and went to heaven? Of course not! There is only one logical, Scriptural explanation: he was once saved and became lost. If he had lived and not apostatized, he would have been called a Christian with the other disciples in Acts 11:26. The Bible teaches that throughout the entire Christian life, salvation is conditional and present tense. It also teaches that the saved always have a strong hope for the final inheritance of eternal life. It teaches that sal¬vation comes by faith and repentance that produces good works of obedience through God's grace and our love for the Lord. We must persevere by God's power (His part), "through faith" (our part) (1 Peter 1:5). And we are preserved in Jesus Christ our Lord, living for Him (the Word). If we go back to the world (forsaking the Word), we commit spiritual adultery. According to the Scriptures, if we die in this condition of sin, we cannot hope for heaven to be our eternal home. Let us continue to look "unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), lest we also fall away unto perdition.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Judas was an ungodly, ambitious, selfish man. He could have come to Jesus, but he didn’t. He is the greatest story of lost opportunity the world has ever, ever heard.

I forget who it was that wrote, “Man as of old by himself is priced. For thirty pieces Judas sold himself, not Christ.”

And that’s right. He was a man totally dominated by greed.


There are some who want to imagine that Judas was saved, but there’s no evidence whatsoever.


“One of you is a devil,” said Jesus. And when he died, it says he went to his what?

"His own place."

No, I don’t believe Judas was saved. He is even called the son of perdition.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Kindgo

It is important to note that Judas was not a true believer; he was a hypocrite. He had never believed in Jesus (John 6:64-71), he had not been bathed all over (John 13:10-11), and he had not been among the chosen ones whom the Father gave to the Son (John 13:18 and 17:12). How close a person can come to salvation and yet be lost forever!
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

---

If you believe that you can lose your salvation because of your behavior, it means that you don't believe Jesus took all of the sins of your life to the cross (Col 2:13-15), and therefore you don't believe He saved you completely (Hebr. 7:25).

---

It is never always 'past tense'. (Like how I said that?) Therefore the argument is void. It is present tense delivery, as one abides in Him. So it is not something 'done' in the past, but something being done in the present.

It is always, and forever will be NOW! So forgivness for the past does not excuse one in the now. Notice that we will be judged for the deeds done in our body!!! And consider this one vigorously:

Rom 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

He wasn't preaching to unbelievers.

Now, in order to come to Jesus initially, one has to have his or her past sins dealt with. But that is not what covers for him (or her) from moment to moment as we strive to reach the end of our journey. What Jesus is interested in is what we do with the now. Regrettably, some discard and disregard the now as 'covered', and they go on. My concern is that they are in for a shock, and I have so much as expressed this. But the naysaying dish it saying that I don't know what I am talking about. We'll see!

"...if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

This is a responsibility. Naysaysers can talk about 'works' till there is a blue heifer to sacrifice; but because it is not by works does not indicate that there is no responsibility. Do what you want with this. You are accountable.

Because:

Rom 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

But it is not being led by the Spirit of God to insist that there is no responsibility, or no accountability just because it is not of works.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Going around and saying someone isn't saved is as foolish as it gets. I cannot say that the person saying such is not saved, but the fruit as evidenced by the tongue, doesn't bear it out.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Do any of you "Once Saved Always Saved" teachers understand a unbeliever can not commit Apostasy?

So why does the scripture warn against "Apostasy"?

Why do scripture promise that a Great Apostasy will take place before the return of the Lord?

“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God.”

Hebrews 3:12
Apostasy (Greek ~ apostasia) appears twice in the New Testament as a noun (Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3) and here in Hebrews 3:12 as a verb (aphist—mi, translated “depart”). The Greek term is defined as a falling away, defection, withdrawal, or turning from what one has formerly turned to.

Therefore in this study we will seek to prove that an apostate is not an unbeliever but someone who once believed, and through personal choice has chosen to follow the Lord no longer. In doing so, we will clearly see that the teaching of eternal security as promoted by Calvinists is false and dangerous to one’s eternal life.

[1] To apostatise means to sever one’s saving relationship with Jesus Christ or to withdraw from vital union with and true faith in Him. In other words, personal apostasy is possible only for those who have first experienced salvation, regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13.)

Also notice what the writer of Hebrews 6:4-6 has to say upon this subject; “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.” It is apparent that it is not a mere denial of New Testament doctrine by the unsaved spoken of here, but the rejection of Christ and the things of God by a one time believer. Apostasy may involve two separate, though related, aspects:

(a) theological apostasy, i.e., rejection of all or some of the original teachings of Christ and the apostles and replacing them with liberal theology, false religion, or even atheism. Paul warns us that “the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” (1 Timothy 4:1.) He later gives the reason for this apostasy in his second letter to Timothy; “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4), and

(b) moral apostasy, i.e., the former believer ceases to abide in Christ and instead becomes enslaved again to sin and immorality ~ “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:15-23.) Please remember that these verses were written to believers not to the unsaved. There same truth is taught in Romans 8:6-13 ~ “ For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” Again, notice that Paul is referring to believers not the unsaved. We see from the above Scriptures just how important it is to maintain our walk in Jesus Christ and not allow ourselves to be overcome by worldliness and sin.

[2] The Bible issues urgent warnings concerning the possibility of apostasy, designed both to alert us to the deadly peril of abandoning our union with Christ and to motivate us to persevere in faith and obedience. The divine purpose of these warning passages must not be weakened by the view that states that the warnings are real, but that in reality there is no possibility of apostasy or losing salvation. In fact we should regard them as a sincere alarm if we want to attain final salvation. The Bible is full of such warnings but the following verses should be enough to convince the child of God of the need to endure to the end. Acts 14:22 informs us that Paul exhorted the Church in Derbe to “continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” It is the Lord’s desire to present us, His Church, pure and holy, but this can only be achieved if we live according to His Word. Paul tells us that this is possible “if ye continue in the faith, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.” (Colossians 1:23.)

As mentioned above, the Holy Spirit reveals to us that in the latter days people will fall away from the Lord and give themselves over to false doctrines. These doctrines damn the soul. This is why it is good to take the advice given to Timothy, “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (1 Timothy 4:16.)

If there was no possibility of turning away from Christ why would Paul further charge Timothy to “fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life.” (1 Timothy 6:12)?

It is this keeping a tight grip upon salvation that is so essential and it’s the very place that so many fail and fall. Because of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine many live ungodly lives. I have personally known Christians who lived like the world with no real desire to live for God, simply because they believed if they are saved and cannot lose salvation, then why worry! These are doing exactly what the Bible warns the early Church not to do;

“How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:3-4.)

If the truth be told, what is really happening here is the hardening of the heart. Jehovah destroyed His own people in the wilderness because of their refusal to accept and follow His Word. Hebrews 3:8 cautions us, “Harden not your hearts, as in the day of provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness.” If we do we also will find that God will say unto us, “They shall not enter into my rest.” (:11.) This is the reason the very next verse warns us to “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God” (:12.)

Calvinists fail to see that a Christian who backslides is a sinner and needs to be converted or else he will go to a lost eternity in Hell. This is what James points out so effectively in 5:19-20; “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”

Very sound advice when we consider that this was James’ last statement to his readers. To sum up this section: We need to pay attention to what the Lord has given to us if we are going to reach the goal.

If we give up and turn away from the Lord, it is not that we have lost salvation but that we have thrown it away, we will not inherit eternal life. What the Lord has given to us needs to remain and we need to continue in Him. “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (1 John 2:24.)

[3] At this point let us turn to some examples of apostasy in the New Testament. All will admit that it is by God’s grace that we are saved through faith in our Saviour Jesus Christ.

To live contrary to the Word of God would make us fall from this grace, just as Paul pointed out to the Galatian Church ~ “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4.) This was his response to the Gentile Church in Galatia as they were becoming confused by the teachings of those who said that they must follow Jewish customs to be saved.

Calvinists have told me that such passages of Scripture (including those in Hebrews) were written to Jewish converts and do not apply to Gentile believers. Firstly, despite the fact that Hebrews was written to Jewish converts to Christianity they were Christians, therefore the Hebrews was written to Christians; Secondly, though Paul mentions the Jewish legalists, he was writing to the Gentile Church in Galatia; Lastly, the New Testament letters were written to Churches or at least individuals in Churches, and these Churches were made up of Christian believers regardless if they came from a Jewish or Gentile background ~ “There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile], their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28.)

The possibility of losing salvation sounds blasphemous to some, yet this is exactly what the Word of God teaches. If we were to reject Christ we would be making shipwreck of our faith.

“Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenæus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:19-20.) Once you have made shipwreck your faith in Christ there are no other salvation vessels provided by the Lord. The only way you can have full assurance of salvation is by maintaining a continual trust in Christ, or to put it another way, by staying in His fellowSHIP.

God makes us aware that there will be false prophets in the Church. It may be argued that these people are not real Christians, but it is obvious that they are in the Church to deceive those who are saved and to lead them astray. The apostle Peter writes, “There were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways.” (1 Peter 2:1.)

Yet, to say that the false teachers\prophets and their followers were not once true believers flies in the face of Truth. In verses 20-22 Peter makes it abundantly clear that this is the case ~ “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

If you are still unconvinced that a person can fall away, put away and reject the salvation he has received, then what do you think about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)? What do you think of Demas who forsook Paul “having loved this present world” (2 Timothy 4:10)?

In fact the Bible predicts that during the last days, the antichrist age, there will be a falling away from the Lord (2 Thessalonians 2:3.)

[4] The steps that lead to apostasy are as follows:

(a) " Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14.) The lack of personal holiness is the major factor in backsliding and falling away from the Lord. Almost everyone who stops following God’s way has been enticed by this world. There is a general lack of seriousness in the Church today regarding the call to commitment and holiness. It has become outdated and legalistic to some, yet it is a must if we are going to see the Lord. This desire to serve God must continue regardless of what temptations or tribulations we may face in the Christian life. The sad but true fact is there is very little substance to the gospel being presented today. Because of this there is a corresponding lack of dedication amongst believers. They fall away from Christ because they are not rooted in Him ~ “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13.) This is why preachers of the Gospel need to get back to preaching the Bible and to tell their listeners that they should be “rooted and built up in Him, and stablished in the faith.” (Colossians 2:7.) Today there is too much concern about what other people think. Unless we are bold in our faith it is easy to become embarrassed about being rejected for being a Christian and to seek man’s approval. “How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?” (John 5:44.)

(b) As worldliness gets its claws into a believer’s life the joy of serving Jesus departs. There is no longer a drawing near to God and His Word. The things of God begin to take second place until they become the last thing on our mind. Listen to these instructions that were originally written to the Hebrews: “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. . . . Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. . . . But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh unto God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.” (Hebrews 4:16; &:25; 11:6.)

(c) Is it not amazing that what Christians once called sin is now tolerated as acceptable behaviour. Christians, like the world, are no longer ashamed of their sin but openly flaunt it in the guise of so-called Christian Liberty. What really happens in this case is that righteousness is no longer loved. Listen, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abuses of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10.) If you happen to see your own sin in that list then you need to get right with God now before it is too late! Do you want to see a confirmation of what Paul wrote? Well let’s look at Ephesians 5:5 ~ “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” My aim here is not to condemn you but to make you alert to the true facts of our responsibility in serving Jesus Christ. In fact Hebrews 3:13 gives us each such a command ~ “Exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”

(d) Through hardening of the heart the ways of God are rejected. Soon the still small voice of God’s Holy Spirit is drowned out with the world’s multitudes of voices offering a more enlightened, liberal way. It is then that the Holy Spirit of God is grieved and quenched in our lives. The temple He came to inhabit has been violated by sin ~ “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” But don’t stop there! “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” (1 Corinthians 3:16-17.)

[5] If apostasy continues its course unchecked, an individual may eventually reach the point when no second beginning is possible. Continuing to wilfully sin is so dangerous yet pastors and teachers do not warn their flock. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27.) Through false teaching Christians do not believe that there is a limit to God’s patience. Hebrews 10:31 reminds us that “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.”

To safeguard against the danger of ultimate apostasy all we have to do is love God enough to obey all His Word. It is that easy, yet why do so many fool around and play religion? In fact they have doomed themselves to a lost eternity, and at the same time deceived themselves with the thought, “Well, at least I said the sinners prayer.” If you find yourself in this position at this moment then do something about it. “Today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts.” (Hebrews 3:7-8, :15; 4:7.)

[6] It must be made clear that while apostasy is a danger for all who drift from the faith and fall away, it is not made complete without constant and wilful sinning against the voice of the Holy Spirit.

[7] Those who by an unbelieving heart depart from God may think they are Christians, but their indifference to the demands of Christ and the Holy Spirit and to the warnings of Scripture points otherwise. Because of the very real possibility of self-deception, Paul exhorts all those claiming salvation to “examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.” (2 Corinthians 13:5.)

[8] Finally, any person who becomes sincerely concerned about his spiritual condition and finds in his heart the desire to return to God in repentance, has sure evidence he has not committed unpardonable apostasy. God wants you to live under the power of His saving faith. If Jesus did so much for you in dying on the cross to bring you to eternal life, then is it too much to ask that you live for Him the way He requires?

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:1-2.)
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Ecclesiastes 5:3

For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
WildB please explain what that has to do with "Apostasy"?

again only a person that has once been a believer can commit the act of Apostasy!
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
To accept that salvation is a work of God and also that it is God who is the only one who can keep us saved, is a doctrine that grates at the pride of man.

The reason we have so many false religions is because man wants to be responsible for salvation, man wants to think that his "works" and actions merit salvation.

But it is not true, all "works" for salvation are nothing but filthy rags.

The works of a Christian are simply "evidences" of salvation, but gain no credit with keeping it.

It takes humility to bow before the feet of Christ and admit that you have nothing to offer for salvation (no good in us at all), and that the only good we do after salvation is because the Holy Spirit enabled it, and all the sin is our because of our weakness.

But thanks be to God, that Christ is faithful when we are not.

A Christian can sin after salvation, just not as much--but even if we try to remain in our sins, then God will lead us out, gently at first, and if needed, then some stern discipline will come, and eventually death if we still resist His Spirit. But He never takes away our salvation--no never.
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Apostasy to me is like a man out in the middle of the sea letting go of his salvation device and thinkin hes still floating.

Heresy is like a man on a motor rescue craft running a mission, telling the crew we have no more gas when are tanks are really full.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo a definition please... I know your doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"... I want you to think your doctrine through...the Bible is a complete Book not a collection of short stories....

Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.

Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
BecauseHelives, you sir are a law keeper...you have been keeping laws since I met you, many years ago. I am sorry for you.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
It is to the honor of Christ that He makes all his people persevere to the end. If they would fall away and perish, every office, and work, and attribute of Christ would be stained in the mud.

If any child of God would perish, then where were Christ’s covenant promises?

What is he worth as a mediator of the covenant and the guarantee of it, if he has not made the promises sure to all the recipients?

My brothers and sisters, Christ is made a leader and commander of the people, to bring many souls to glory; but if he does not bring them into glory, where is the captain’s honor?

Where is the effectiveness of the precious blood, if it does not effectually redeem?

If it only redeems for a time and then allows us to perish, where is its value? If it only blots out sin for a few weeks, and then permits that sin to return and to remain on us, where, I say, is the glory of Calvary, and where is the luster of the wounds of Jesus?

He lives, he lives to intercede, but how can I honor his intercession, if it is fruitless? Didn’t he pray, “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am;” [John 17:24] and if they are not finally brought to be with him where he is, where is the honor of his intercession?

Hasn’t the Mediator failed and been dismissed without success? Is he not at this very moment in union with his people?


But what is the value of union to Christ, if that union does not insure salvation? Is he not today at the right hand of God, preparing a place for his saints; and will he prepare a place for them, and then lose them on the road? Oh! can it be that he procures the harp and the crown, and will not save souls to use them?

My brothers and sisters, the perishing of one true child of God, would be such a dishonor to Jesus that I cannot think of it without considering it as blasphemy.

One true believer in hell! Oh! what laughter in the pit — what defiance, what unholy delight!

“Oh! Prince of life and glory,”

says the prince of the pit, “I have defeated you; I have snatched the prey from the mighty; I have torn a jewel from your crown.


See, here it is!

You redeemed this soul with blood, and yet it is in hell.” Hear what Satan cries out — “Christ suffered for this soul, and yet God makes it suffer for itself.


Where is the justice of God? Christ came from heaven to earth to save this soul, and failed in the attempt, and I have him here.

We have conquered heaven!

We have destroyed the eternal covenant; we have foiled the purposes of God; we have defeated his decree; we have triumphed over the power of the Mediator, and cast his blood to the ground!”

Can this ever happen?


What an awful question!

It can never, ever happen.


They who are in Christ are saved. They whom Jesus Christ has really taken into union with himself, will be with him where he is. But how are you to know whether you are in union with Christ?


My brothers and sisters, you can only know it by obeying the apostle’s words, “Be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure” [2 Peter 1:10].
February 14, 1864

by

C. H. Spurgeon
(1834-1892)
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Union with Christ is by faith. It occurs, or is understood when the eye is single. Then one sees through His eyes, and with His heart. Union with Christ, blessed as it is, does not mean assured eternal security. For that one must endure to the end. What it means is that one is better equipped to see it out to the end knowing "The Eye of the Storm," instead of the dangerous winds.

To say that Union with CHrist is to be sealed with no possibility of demise is outrageous. It misrepresents the life that IS Christ. For it still comes down to the fact that one participates with Him to the end. One participates every step of the way. Lack of participation means Non-Union with Christ every time it occurs. It is the same as when Peter, having been walking on water, sank, because his faith sank. Unbelief plunged him down. He could have drowned in a sea of unbelief. Likewise, any other believer can fail the very same way.

"Take heed if you think you stand, lest you fall."
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Amen Kindgo!


If He is a Teacher, take His teachings, and what are they? These, that He is the Son of God; that ‘He came from God’; that He ‘went to God’; that He ‘gives His life a ransom for many’; that He is to be the Judge of mankind; that if we trust in Him, our sins are forgiven and our nature is renewed. Do not go picking and choosing amongst His teachings, for these which I have named are as surely His as ‘Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them,’ or any other of the moral teachings which the world professes to admire. Take the whole teachings of the whole Christ, and you will confess Him to be the Redeemer of your souls, and the Life-giver by whom, and by whom alone, we enter the Kingdom of God.

(Expositons of Holy Scripture: Gospels and Acts)
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
We Cannot Save Ourselves


All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. Isaiah 64:6

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

The squirrel in his wire cage continually in motion but making no progress reminds me of my own self-righteous efforts toward salvation, but the little creature is never half so wearied by his exertions as I was by mine. The poor scavenger in Paris trying to earn a living by picking dirty rags out of the kennel succeeds far better than I did in my attempts to obtain comfort by my own works. Dickens’s cab-horse, which was only able to stand because it was never taken out of the shafts, was strength and beauty itself compared with my starving hopes propped up with resolutions and regulations. Wretches condemned to the galleys in the days of the old French kings, whose only reward for incessant toils was the lash of the keeper, were in a more happy plight than I when under legal bondage. Slavery in mines where the sun never shines must be preferable to the miseries of a soul goaded by an awakened conscience to seek salvation by its own merits. Some of the martyrs were shut up in a dungeon, and I remember the spiritual counterpart of that prison-house. Iron chains are painful enough, but what pain there is when the iron enters the soul! Tell us not of the writhings of the wounded and dying on the battlefield. Some of us, when our hearts were riddled by the artillery of the law, would have counted wounds and death a happy exchange. Oh blessed Savior, how blissful was the hour when all this horrid midnight of the soul was changed into the dawning of pardoning love!

(The Quotable Spurgeon)
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo I am not a legalist...but the Law of Yahweh has been written on the tables of my heart and by His Grace when I fail Him I run to Him and ask His forgivness...1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

but Kindgo and Carol you neither have given me any definition of "Apostasy"...

Kindgo a definition please... I know your doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"... I want you to think your doctrine through...the Bible is a complete Book not a collection of short stories....

Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.

Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
"Once Sealed Always Sealed” until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
APOSTASY is the act of rebelling against, forsaking, abandoning, or falling away from what one has believed.

Apostasy certainly is a biblical concept, but the implications of the teaching have been hotly debated. The debate has centered on the issue of apostasy and salvation. Based on the concept of God’s sovereign grace, some hold that, though true believers may stray, they will never totally fall away. Others affirm that any who fall away were never really saved. Though they may have “believed” for a while, they never experienced regeneration. Still others argue that the biblical warnings against apostasy are real and that believers maintain the freedom, at least potentially, to reject God’s salvation.

Persons worried about apostasy should recognize that conviction of sin in itself is evidence that one has not fallen away. Desire for salvation shows one does not have “an evil heart of unbelief.”

(Holman Bible Dictionary)


It is one thing to overcome the flesh and not do evil things, but quite something else to do good things. The legalist might be able to boast that he is not guilty of adultery or murder (but see Matt. 5:21-32), but can anyone see the beautiful graces of the Spirit in his life? Negative goodness is not enough in a life; there must be positive qualities as well.
 

---

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Hi, WildB, you wrote

quote:

---

Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

---

quote:

---

It is one thing to overcome the flesh and not do evil things, but quite something else to do good things.

---

quote:

---

It is one thing to overcome the flesh and not do evil things, but quite something else to do good things.

---

There is no such "inbetween world" as you propose. If one no longer does evil things, then of necessity one must be doing good things.

love, eden
"take that, MH"
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo , Carol, Aaron, other OSAS teachers

i am still waiting for an response....

Kindgo I am not a legalist...but the Law of Yahweh has been written on the tables of my heart and by His Grace when I fail Him I run to Him and ask His forgivness...1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

but Kindgo and Carol you neither have given me any definition of "Apostasy"...

Kindgo a definition please... I know your doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"... I want you to think your doctrine through...the Bible is a complete Book not a collection of short stories....

Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.

Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.

 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Okay...!
Apostasy can be defined as the departure from the truth that one professed to have.

It does not mean that they actually possessed the truth.

Never, do apostates actually posses the truth. rather, it is a departure from a truth they professed to have because of an affiliation with a particular church.
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
Matthew 11:29-30
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Legalism is when we load another believer's yoke down with burden. Those burdens come in the form of our own personal convictions. God works with each believer individually, it is not our job to add to the burden of one another.
`


Rom 14:1 ¶ Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.


Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.


Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.


Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.


Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.


Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.


Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.


Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.


Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.


Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.


Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.


Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.


Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.


Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.


Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:


Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.


Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men.


Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another
 

---

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :
 
If one fails to discern the different types of salvation then the truth of every kind will be lost on him.

Aaron
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
What?
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo, you can not depart from something you only think you have....

Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.

you can not change the definition of words from their intended use because they do not fit a perverted, damnable doctrine...

that the same thing Bill Clinton did when he committed those horrible sex acts in the White House ...in the trail he said that not the way I define that word... and people in the court system were evil enough or stupid enough to let it go...
 

---

Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on :
 
becauseHElives


I will make the explanation of eternal life easy for you.

If you believe/repent, He will save you from eternal hell.

You are spiritually dead and cannot enter heaven.

When He saves you, He makes you spiritually alive.......ahh eternal life.

He says you are spiritually dead and MUST be 'born-again', 'born-of-the-spirit'..........ahh spiritually alive.....Eternal Life.

When you believe/repent... He can legally forgive your sins because of the substitution death on the cross by Jesus Christ (Our legal scapegoat).


He then saves you when He puts His Holy Spirit in your body... making you NOT spiritually dead. (Titus 3:5)

The gift of the Holy Spirit....IS 'THE' Gift of Eternal Life.

He will never leave your body......you have crossed from death ..to life eternal.


becauseHElives

Not sure I could find a whole lot of support for your particular brand of the Gospel in the Scriptures, but that hasn't seemed to dull your conviction any.


I didn't do anything to gain my salvation, other than accept a gift, so I am not worried about losing it.

I am sorry for you...
 

---

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Romans 8:1 - 4 (NLT)

So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
 

---

Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Kindgo, I am among the few that believe the True Gospel but Jesus/Yahshua said that there would only be a few that would be saved...

maybe you don't take Yahshua at His word but I do...

3I tell you, No; but unless you repent change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins, you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally.

4Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them--do you think that they were more guilty offenders debtors than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem?

5I tell you, No; but unless you repent change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins, you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally.

6And He told them this parable: A certain man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but did not find any.

7So he said to the vinedresser, See here! For these three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree and I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue also to use up the ground [to deplete the soil, intercept the sun, and take up room]?

8But he replied to him, Leave it alone, sir, [just] this one more year, till I dig around it and put manure [on the soil].

9Then perhaps it will bear fruit after this; but if not, you can cut it down and out.

10Now Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.

11And there was a woman there who for eighteen years had had an infirmity caused by a spirit a demon of sickness. She was bent completely forward and utterly unable to straighten herself up or to look upward.

12And when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, Woman, you are released from your infirmity!

13Then He laid His hands on her, and instantly she was made straight, and she recognized and thanked and praised God.

14But the leader of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the crowd, There are six days on which work ought to be done; so come on those days and be cured, and not on the Sabbath day.

15But the Lord replied to him, saying, You playactors (hypocrites)! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead it out to water it?

16And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?

17Even as He said this, all His opponents were put to shame, and all the people were rejoicing over all the glorious things that were being done by Him.

18This led Him to say, What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it?

19It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his own garden; and it grew and became a tree, and the wild birds found shelter and roosted and nested in its branches.

20And again He said, To what shall I liken the kingdom of God?

21It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of wheat flour or meal until it was all leavened fermented.

22Jesus journeyed on through towns and villages, teaching, and making His way toward Jerusalem.

23And someone asked Him, Lord, will only a few be saved rescued, delivered from the penalties of the last judgment, and made partakers of the salvation by Christ? And He said to them,

24Strive to enter by the narrow door force yourselves through it, for many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.

25When once the Master of the house gets up and closes the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door again and again, saying, Lord, open to us! He will answer you, I do not know where what household--certainly not Mine you come from.

26Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.

27But He will say, I tell you, I do not know where what household--certainly not Mine you come from; depart from Me, all you wrongdoers!

28There will be weeping and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being cast forth banished, driven away.

29And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit down feast at table in the kingdom of God.

30And behold, there are some now last who will be first then, and there are some now first who will be last then.

31At that very hour some Pharisees came up and said to Him, Go away from here, for Herod is determined to kill You.

32And He said to them, Go and tell that fox sly and crafty, skulking and cowardly, Behold, I drive out demons and perform healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I finish (complete) My course.

33Nevertheless, I must continue on My way today and tomorrow and the day after that--for it will never do for a prophet to be destroyed away from Jerusalem!

34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who continue to kill the prophets and to stone those who are sent to you! How often I have desired and yearned to gather your children together around Me, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you would not!

35Behold, your house is forsaken abandoned, left to you destitute of God's help! And I tell you, you will not see Me again until the time comes when you shall say, Blessed to be celebrated with praises is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!


no doubt you will say but they were never saved, because of what Yahshua says about "I do not know where what household--certainly not Mine you come from." in verse 25,26, &27 but what is said in 6,7, & 8 does not negate what is said in the other verses....

for instance...the parable in verse 6...A certain man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but did not find any.

Yahweh would be a very unjust to look for fruit on a tree that had no hope of producing fruit?

but Yahweh is not unjust in any thing...

I pray your eyes might be open and you can see that all those that do not endure to the end, will not be saved...
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
BHL your mixxing up others mail from the Text then trying to shuffle a winning hand to yourself is clear to all.

The Dispensation of Grace does not teach what you shuffle out.

"Once Sealed Always Sealed” until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil. Your constant digs are un-called for.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part in this SEALING are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand this SEALING so you think to speak your long winded posts or short digs against it constantly. But in reality your New age blasphemyagainst the Holy Spirit can bring you to the unforgivable sin .

Repent while it is yet called day.
 

---

Posted by Aaron (Member # 3761) on :