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Author
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Topic: Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation!
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Greetings 2 friend. The things that you mention are the fruit [byproduct] of relationship. They are not things that one 'does' to accomplish His will. They are not things that merit anything with Him.
"Seek ye first the Kingdome of God and..."
If God wants yo to study and be quiet, and you are out 'doing' these things, Are you in His will? Are you bearing fruit? Just being busy about these does not mean one is 'doing' His will. It means well. It just doesn't mean one is "Led of the Spirit' in doing them. Make no mistake, fruit comes from relationship. The fruit if Cain is to 'do' what one think pleases Him. And He offers us relationship so that we can know, and be spared of supposing. It is a "Living" relationship.
I mean, isn't it great to be led of the Sirit? Isn't it great to know His heart and to see Him move, yet you are the instrument in His hand unto the accomplishing of His purpose? Here is why we are to "Seek first the Kingdom of God," until we know that we have understood how He is first.
Thanks friend. PG!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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kjw47
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posted
quote:
Hi Friend, Actually there are many things that a person need to do. John 17: 3 teaches that we must take in knowledge of God and Jesus for eternal life, this means true knowledge not false knowledge. one must believe on Jesus sacrafice, one must repent, one must get baptized, one must love, have faith, and try to teach others the good news of Gods kingdom. and must endure until the end, one must listen to Jesus when he said--Man does not live by bread alone, but by every utterance of God.- Jesus showed the importance of this one comparing living by every utterance with the importance of humans eating. Something one needs to do 24/7 with ones whole heart, soul and mind. And not be apart of this world. Not such an easy task with wickedness surrounding all. It takes heartfelt dedication no matter what.
Posts: 48 | Registered: Jul 2008
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Michael Harrison
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Cares of this life! Waat are the cares of this life? Is it raising children, and cutting the lawn, instead of letting the grass grow, and going down to work at the homeless shelter? No! You are supposed to be a good steward in these things. However, if you are led to take the children down to Zimbabwey (how you spell?) or try to stay home and climb the corporate ladder, which do you think would be right?
"Labor not for the meat which perisheth."
In such a case, one lays up treasure in heaven. In another one lays up treasure on earth, where moth and dust corrupt, and theives break in to steal. But when Jesus was talking about denying father, mother, child etc. He knew that the day would come for some where these would be taken from them, or perhaps not, if they would deny Christ. It has happened in communist, muslim, and pagan countries all around the world. What a position to be in.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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It is just a fact Chewy. We have an understanding that is not of the Spirit, but it sounds good to us. All that one can say about it is that there is something beyond what conclusions we come to in our best efforts. So, it is not criticism when I talk this way. It is an attempt.
There is a natural understanding. And there is another one. It is one that is 'revelated'. That is all. If it isn't revelated it misses the mark. We know Him only one way, by revelation, which is Him revealing Himself to us. That does not have a prayer of happening without faith. But faith is of Him, not of ourseles, therefore, the first thing that He reveals to us - is faith. That is actually revelated.
I don't think I was dodging the tough questions. Ask me again, and I'll try again. It is just that there is an understanding that is heavenly,, that leaves the worldly suppositions behind.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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CHEWY
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Thank you for your post Eden...
Yes, you are right. We will persevere. Even Calvin recognized this.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eden
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Hello, Chewy, you said quote:
I believe salvation is Jesus plus nothing.
I agree. Jesus did everything and we have to do nothing...
well, that is...almost nothing...because we DO have to "accept" the Offer and we do have to "continue to believe" that Jesus died for us, and this "accepting" and "continuing to believe" IS doing something, but it is a very EASY thing to do:
"Learn of Me, for My burden is easy". Jesus suffered and died on the cross FOR me, so that I do NOT have to die, period.
Everything more than that is part of sanctification, but not of salvation. Salvation is free by merely believing and trusting in, but sanctification is not free in the sense that it requires ongoing cooperation/work between the Holy Spirit and me.
eden
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CHEWY
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Faith plus nothing and where does my faith come from? The Holy Spirit dispenses it to us in different measures as He sees fit. I believe salvation is Jesus plus nothing.
Michael - I have simply asked the tough questions which you chosen to not confront. You have simply said that I have chosen to lean upon my own understanding. I am sorry you feel this way, and I consider you my brother in Christ.
My only reply to your comments is my own understanding comes from the Scripture as represented.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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Michael Harrison
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Well good wb. You have confidence to face that day. I think you have already shown us that! Yet, if you 'are' so confident, why do you keep posting it?
![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting [overindulgence], and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 21:33-36 (KJV)
I would say chewey, that you are leaning to your own understanding. (Let all those who want to debate, do just that.) You, as should we all, should seek 'from Him' what cares of this life means, instead of assuming to know. It may be your children, but it comes down what His will is in every individual matter facing you.
That you don't "see it that way" concerning the verse above, I'm ok with that. But this is how I see it, and I think you can take it to the bank. And for the punch that is in the wording of the passage:
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Let all who read consider! It is stated in the simplest terms. The reward is depicted as to be able to stand before the Son of Man. Clearly this indicates that some, who are slothful probably, will not stand before Him (in a good way). And it is not about rapture or He would not have stated as, "To stand before the Son of Man." He probably would have said, "That ye may be accounted worthy to escape these things and meet Him in the air." Think about it.
quote:
If I am not good enough to earn my salvation how can we honestly say that God would expect any of us to be good enough to keep it?
It is maintained by faith, and you do, do something to keep it! Otherwise you 'take it for granted'. If that is you, ok. Others here feel that way. It is not works, as the touchy, feely crowd will assert. For people who are out there, and who are very good teachers, like Les Feldick, say that it is "Faith and nothing!" What they are implying is that it is simply faith; and not faith and babtism, or faith and earning. However, even based on what he says, it is at the very basic bottom, 'faith', without which you will not see Him.
But I will add to what he says. It is faith and something! It is faith and 'receiving' whatever He is to you. If you don't receive this, you plainly reject this. If you reject this, you have no part of Him. While you are at it, look in the gospels where Jesus washed the feet of the desciples, where Peter said, "No Lord, not mine.
quote:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:22-23 (KJV)
I NEVER KNEW YOU.
Casting out devils
Prophesying
Wonderful and miraculous works
These are seen as works of iniquity, not because they are evil deeds but because of the state of the heart/soul.
This is another example just as above. I will suggest that you are leaning on your own understanding here also. And let me be bold about it. I am one of those 'Pentecostals', Charismatic's, Full Gospel's, or whatever you would label them. I would recommend that nobody be without that blessing. It is an eye opener. And for all of those who want to dump on it, call it New Age, or whatever, these do not this in secret. Their deeds are manifest. If they are confident that they are right, and are willing to face Him anyway, there is nothing anybody can say. \
But concerning this passage, I have puzzled over the passage for years. It doesn't apply to the crowd that the 'self-righteous' wish to apply it to. I am quite sure that there will be a New Age group of these people who are subjects of the Antichrist, and we haven't seen them yet. (But I have seen evidence, even on this board, of the beginning stages of such a group.) How they will perform miracles, I don't know. I just know that Pharoah duplicated the miracles of Moses, up to a point. And this will be revisited.
So, when a person 'locks in' their theology, and doctrine, and limits their association to a finite group of people, he (or she) should not be too self assured. That's my advice. For he who has ears to hear, let Him hear.
If you want to believe osas, and be complacent about some things concerning your relationship with Him, that is your business, but this had to be said.
Not much scripture but a lot of rant.
Once sealed always sealed is Biblical.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eden
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Hello, Chewy, you wrote quote:
If we understand these verses in the context you have given, "cares of this life" lead to a loss of salvation. I have three children still at home. They are very much a care of this life for me. Will my taking care of them lead to loss of salvation? On a more minor note, mowing my lawn is a care of this life. Perhaps I should tell my wife that I can't mow my lawn as it may lead to the loss of my salvation.
If we spend all of our time with the "cares of this world" and do not feed our faith, we can lose our faith and so become unfruitful and faithless again.
Sure, our life has many cares and some are unavoidable; I think that by "cares" the Bible means "all the interests we might have besides the basic 'must-do' things", we can have so many of them by our own choosing that we fail to feed our faith and eventually become "faithless" again. quote:
Also, we should be careful to realize that some would see that there is no reason to be on alert or concerned about your salvation until you see these things happening. I don't believe that any of us would agree with this but couldn't that be misconstrued here.[quote]Eventhough acquiring salvation is simple (it is received by believing that Jesus died on my behalf), unless this belief is maintained like a lawn, it can imperceptibly slip away without one realizing it if salvation is not maintained propertly and regularly. Faith for salvation needs to be maintained from Day 1.[quote]If I am not good enough to earn my salvation how can we honestly say that God would expect any of us to be good enough to keep it?
God and Jesus have already done the work for our salvation, namely, Jesus died for us. My part is to acquire that salvation thru belief in what Jesus did for me, and my part is to maintain that belief thru the counsel of the Holy Spirit and thru reading/hearing the Word of God. If I don't maintain my faith by doing my part, then I can gradually slip back into unbelief and I have put myself back under wrath and have to pay for my own sins again.
love, eden
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting [overindulgence], and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 21:33-36 (KJV)
I would say chewey, that you are leaning to your own understanding. (Let all those who want to debate, do just that.) You, as should we all, should seek 'from Him' what cares of this life means, instead of assuming to know. It may be your children, but it comes down what His will is in every individual matter facing you.
That you don't "see it that way" concerning the verse above, I'm ok with that. But this is how I see it, and I think you can take it to the bank. And for the punch that is in the wording of the passage:
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Let all who read consider! It is stated in the simplest terms. The reward is depicted as to be able to stand before the Son of Man. Clearly this indicates that some, who are slothful probably, will not stand before Him (in a good way). And it is not about rapture or He would not have stated as, "To stand before the Son of Man." He probably would have said, "That ye may be accounted worthy to escape these things and meet Him in the air." Think about it.
quote:
If I am not good enough to earn my salvation how can we honestly say that God would expect any of us to be good enough to keep it?
It is maintained by faith, and you do, do something to keep it! Otherwise you 'take it for granted'. If that is you, ok. Others here feel that way. It is not works, as the touchy, feely crowd will assert. For people who are out there, and who are very good teachers, like Les Feldick, say that it is "Faith and nothing!" What they are implying is that it is simply faith; and not faith and babtism, or faith and earning. However, even based on what he says, it is at the very basic bottom, 'faith', without which you will not see Him.
But I will add to what he says. It is faith and something! It is faith and 'receiving' whatever He is to you. If you don't receive this, you plainly reject this. If you reject this, you have no part of Him. While you are at it, look in the gospels where Jesus washed the feet of the desciples, where Peter said, "No Lord, not mine.
quote:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:22-23 (KJV)
I NEVER KNEW YOU.
Casting out devils
Prophesying
Wonderful and miraculous works
These are seen as works of iniquity, not because they are evil deeds but because of the state of the heart/soul.
This is another example just as above. I will suggest that you are leaning on your own understanding here also. And let me be bold about it. I am one of those 'Pentecostals', Charismatic's, Full Gospel's, or whatever you would label them. I would recommend that nobody be without that blessing. It is an eye opener. And for all of those who want to dump on it, call it New Age, or whatever, these do not this in secret. Their deeds are manifest. If they are confident that they are right, and are willing to face Him anyway, there is nothing anybody can say. These are these who are setting the stage for the "I'm ok, you're ok," hour of the Antichrist.
But concerning this passage, I have puzzled over the passage for years. It doesn't apply to the crowd that the 'self-righteous' wish to apply it to. I am quite sure that there will be a New Age group of these people who are subjects of the Antichrist, and we haven't seen them yet. (But I have seen evidence, even on this board, of the beginning stages of such a group.) How they will perform miracles, I don't know. I just know that Pharoah duplicated the miracles of Moses, up to a point. And this will be revisited.
So, when a person 'locks in' their theology, and doctrine, and limits their association to a finite group of people, he (or she) should not be too self assured. That's my advice. For he who has ears to hear, let Him hear.
If you want to believe osas, and be complacent about some things concerning your relationship with Him, that is your business, but this had to be said.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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CHEWY
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posted
Thanks for corresponding with me on this subject.
I do not see this verse in Matt. 24 as saying watch or you will have lost your salvation when I come. If it says this we are back to the idea of any sin taking away our salvation.
In Luke 21 we have similar passages.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Luke 21:28 (KJV)
Further it here states...
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting [overindulgence], and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 21:33-36 (KJV)
If we understand these verses in the context you have given, "cares of this life" lead to a loss of salvation. I have three children still at home. They are very much a care of this life for me. Will my taking care of them lead to loss of salvation? On a more minor note, mowing my lawn is a care of this life. Perhaps I should tell my wife that I can't mow my lawn as it may lead to the loss of my salvation. [I realize this is somewhat ridiculous but isn't this what it literally says if I am to interpret these verses this way]
Also, we should be careful to realize that some would see that there is no reason to be on alert or concerned about your salvation until you see these things happening. I don't believe that any of us would agree with this but couldn't that be misconstrued here.
If I am not good enough to earn my salvation how can we honestly say that God would expect any of us to be good enough to keep it?
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt 7:22-23 (KJV)
I NEVER KNEW YOU.
Casting out devils
Prophesying
Wonderful and miraculous works
These are seen as works of iniquity, not because they are evil deeds but because of the state of the heart/soul.
What if a person is a smoker when they are saved?
This is a habitual sin. What if they keep on smoking after salvation? At what point does one lose their salvation from this?
I cannot accept a doctrine that says we can lose our salvation. If this is true every person who prayed a sinner's prayer or for that matter even stated that Jesus is Lord were saved.
I have witnessed many people pray these prayers. Some were genuine and from a convicted and contrite heart. Some were there because they were having a hard time in life and were looking for a fire escape. When the troubles in their life weren't resolved they were no longer among us and out living in the world as they previously did. Were they saved and then lost their salvation or were they never really of the faith?
Only God knows the heart of a man. Only God can judge the salvation of a soul.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eden
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2 Corinthians 12:20
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults.
Matthew 12:34b
... for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
eden
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
And here is a good example of reprobate (notretaining a knowledge of God): repetitive and persistant posting of something that everyone has seen before, that says nothing edifying, but rather capitolizes upon fear (if the hearer was not founded upon the rock). For I don't know about others, but my relationship is with the Rock, not with anyone wylde, for I walk not before men, and need not to impress men.
This however, bears repeating! Others may disagree, but we'll see. Jesus said, "watch therefore,for you know not the hour that the Son of man will come." If osas were true, there would have been no need to be admonished to 'watch'. For it would be pointless if when He comes, you were guaranteed to go with Him. For then you must needs not, necessarily to watch, and He wouldn't have needed to say it. So watching means that you abide in the ark, not getting out to visit the petting zoo. The water outside the ark can be deep.
Please post the Scripture for this rant.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Ta ta'B'. Let me know what Cornielius says!
Latro! Latter Gator!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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Ezek.33
[6] But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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And here is a good example of reprobate (notretaining a knowledge of God): repetitive and persistant posting of something that everyone has seen before, that says nothing edifying, but rather capitolizes upon fear (if the hearer was not founded upon the rock). For I don't know about others, but my relationship is with the Rock, not with anyone wylde, for I walk not before men, and need not to impress men.
This however, bears repeating! Others may disagree, but we'll see. Jesus said, "watch therefore,for you know not the hour that the Son of man will come." If osas were true, there would have been no need to be admonished to 'watch'. For it would be pointless if when He comes, you were guaranteed to go with Him. For then you must needs not, necessarily to watch, and He wouldn't have needed to say it. So watching means that you abide in the ark, not getting out to visit the petting zoo. The water outside the ark can be deep.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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"Once Sealed Always Sealed” until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.
And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.
Read prayerfully,
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
and
Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?
You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.
Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
"The believer does not get disentangled from sin gradually; he breaks with it in Christ once for all. He is placed by a decisive act of will in the sphere of perfect holiness, and it is within it that the gradual renewing of the personal life goes forward. This second gospel paradox, sanctification by faith, rests on the first, justification by faith" (Professor Godet on Romans vi).
CHEW. This paragraph is from the first installment of works by Evan Hopkins, in the "Sound Teaching" post. It is wotrhwhile reading, though it is long. Sanctification as a lifelong process simply robs one of their life. Now I must say that it is not a once for all thing, as though he cannot sin, and I believe that the article bears this out, particularly when it talks about the 'tendency'.
Works are not the instrument of our attaining anything from God, but they are the evidence that we have. If you abide in the Ark, there will be these works. If you do not abide in the Ark, well, it will go on, and you will be left behind. (Not the series.) It is a simple concept.
So, how do we 'not' abide in the Ark? I mean, it is not what you do that causes you to abide in the Ark, no? But it is (for all the naysayers). To abide in the Ark you must believe. It is inescapable. And to 'believe' willbear fruit. And by this we will know that we are the Sons of God, because we have the power to believe. And what happens when we believe? We change. Else, we did not yet believe (i.e. become , or be, Sons of God.)
But it is hard to 'believe' when we are in bed, so to speak. It is hard to belive if we are entertaining guilty pleasure. Yet, some still manage to do this, while 'clinging' to the notion of salvation as being freedom from consequence. And these would be called reprobate: Not having a knowledge of God. This means that they take for granted something that is not true. Because you cannot abide in guilty pleasure, and experience eternal salvation, which equals not knowing, or having a knowledge of His saving power.. The truth is not in you under those circumstances. In other words, you are not truly believing. That is where it will get you.
Others may disagree, but we'll see. Jesus said, "watch therefore,for you know not the hour that the Son of man will come." If osas were true, there would have been no need to be admonished to 'watch'. For it would be pointless if when He comes, you were guaranteed to go with Him.
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oneinchrist
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According to Jesus' words in Acts 26:18 sanctification happens because of faith that is in Him.
Notice there is not as much emphasis on the word faith here as much as there is on the object of our faith.
I believe that if it is possible to lose salvation that it happens as a result of a faith that no longer remains in Jesus. This I do not believe would be because of a single sin, but it would be a process marked by a heart growing callous towards God and a life that progessively integrates itself back into the ways of the world. I believe that if we are honest with ourselves that we would admit that we have at some time or another come into contact with individuals who seem to have gone down this path. Do we just say "oh well, he just must not have been saved?" or do we seek for ways to help restore our brother/sister to fellowship with God?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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CHEWY
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The point I am leading too as far as "doing good for God" [perhaps I could have worded it more appropriately] is that before salvation I could do nothing favorable. My only choice was to do evil. Now that I/we are saved we do have a choice - to do His will or to do ours. One is good the other is evil.
Unfortunately, we all still at times [hopefully we are becoming more and more aware of it] choose our own bidding over God's. When we do it is sin. Any sin is enough to keep us out of heaven as perfection is the mandate for entry. Only Christ has fulfilled this mandate. Here is the tough part.
Sin is sin to God. I personally see some sins as worse than others. Some sin affects only the violator, while other sins affect many. I would think that those which affect many are worse. God himself has declared some sins to be abominations. The teaching that God sees some sin as worse than others has led some to believe in different levels of hell in comparison to different rewards in heaven. At this point I am uncertain as to whether I agree with this teaching.
However, if sin is sin in God's sight and salvation can be lost, how can one establish that any particular sin will cost one his salvation and not any sin?
It is not that I am confused in what I believe. This is simply one of the reasons that I don't adhere to a teaching that says salvation can be lost. God has drawn the line. He cannot look upon any sin as He is holy.
When Christ died did he die only for those sins which you had committed up until the point of His death? Only those sins up until the point of your salvation? Or all of your sin as long as He shall give you life?
I do agree with you in the fact that those who are truly saved should hunger for the Word, grow in His Spirit, and be a light to a dark and lost world. This is progressive sanctification. The OSAS teaching which many of you point at has refused to stress the need for sanctification. I personally view sanctification to be as necessary as justification, adoption, election, glorification [which is to come], and union with Christ. My difference says that this sanctification happens because of salvation not out of an effort to keep salvation.
Chewy-
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WildB
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"Once Sealed Always Sealed” until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.
And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.
Read prayerfully,
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
and
Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?
You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.
Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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You couldn't 'do' anything for Him before you were saved. Neither can you now. If, by faith, you are abiding 'in' Him, you can do 'by' Him, what pleases Him. Discover 'abiding' today. For what you do 'for' Him is dead, bone dry, susceptible to lightening, brown grassy works. Cain is in it. This constitutes most of 'the church'. Don't be most!
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
What if he was in an automobile accident and that moment before impact some profanity poured from his lips? What if it was so sudden there was no time for the asking of forgiveness?
I don't think it is like that Chewey. That is not the message this one is trying to convey. Probably, if this were to be the case, it would be the 'condition' of the person's heart that led to the profanity that might cause difficulty. That is what you have to be concerned about, and I'm not concerned that you have that problem. The devil is in the worry. The worry is unbelief.
But quite simply, you care enough to explore this. He does not forget you. And it is not that sensitive. What is important here, as I relate it, is the matter of compromising with sin, deliberately. Say, you 'let' pornography consume you, or you are gayheyhey! Or you are overcome with lust for money, or gambling, or prejudiced. You will know to repent. If then, you happen to be in a car accident, you might be in trouble. So, would you want to take an osas'ers word for it and not bother to repent? I leave you alone before Him on this.
But, even if you have this trouble, don't get under condemnation over it. Recognize that He 'is' helping you, and cares about it. That is as close as I can get to what some others are saying. He will not cast you off unless you persist in the error, and then, He didn't do it, but you did by unwillingness to receive His mercy.
Sleep well Chewey. The Lord favors you. Feel His hug!
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CHEWY
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At what point do you believe a person loses their salvation? Does one sin reverse the effects of salvation? Is it habitual sin? Could it be the renouncement of faith? Does a person who was saved at a young age and lived a faithful life lose his salvation for one sin at the instant of death and then spend eternity in hell? What if he was in an automobile accident and that moment before impact some profanity poured from his lips? What if it was so sudden there was no time for the asking of forgiveness?
Honestly, I read some Scripture that could be interpreted as "a losing of salvation." However, if this were the case, wouldn't the Bible answer these questions? Doesn't the Scripture tell us that God looks upon the heart of man and not his outward appearance? Did David lose his salvation with his adultery and murder? Was David even saved from this perspective?
Works are important for the believer. Without them how can anyone see the fruit of salvation. The problem with the OSAS teaching is that the importance of the light being out for everyone to see has been lost. It even brings some to the point of saying that pastors and churches aren't necessary. Salvation in itself will bring about this fruits because of the new creation within the person.
Think about it. Could we do anything good for God before we were saved? I think not. Any work performed outside of the love of God will fall short. Any reason for doing a good deed outside of it bringing glory to God is not recognizable as truly good. Give all the money you want to to the church or any other organization. If you are giving it for any reason outside of these, you are giving for the wrong reasons and God will see it as self righteousness. Be a cheerful giver the Bible says. We should also be a cheerful doer. How can I be cheerful if I am constantly worried about messing up and losing my salvation?
Chewy-
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Michael Harrison
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Chewy is scripturally correct! For it is proper to chew the cud.
~ ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ~
quote:
Pro 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not [in him] the lips of knowledge.
All I can say then is scatter!!!
Mat 12:30 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
Cuz, you know, 'they', whoever 'they' were, said that about Jesus. In fact - they still do. And Jesus isn't on vacation. He is in the mix. Blessed are they who discover Him.
If you cannot lose your salvation, it doesn't matter if you think you can, if one thinks about it???
![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) What am I doing here????
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
I hope that His coming is at the right time. If I am to be "unashamed" I hope that He doesn't come back at one of those moments when I have fallen. You see, no matter how hard I try, I [we] will fall. I personally believe in a doctrine of eternal security, but I in no way endorse a teaching that says I can live any way I choose too. I firmly believe in a doctrine of perseverance and our striving to persevere.
I agree with you Chewy. Not TULIP, as you know, but this statement. You say here that we 'strive' to persevere. I think we are able to persevere because of the Holy Spirit in us. The persecutions, the trials and tribulations, the terrible losses...I believe most of us need His help to get through it all. He also gives each of us a gift of service we would not have otherwise.
It's always good to hear from you. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Kindgo
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Pro 14:7 Go from the presence of a foolish man, when thou perceivest not [in him] the lips of knowledge.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Michael Harrison
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And Chewey, the problem is in trying. It takes no effort to 'have'. "Whom the Son sets free, is free indeed." Not from the penalty, but from that which leads to penalty. If one would walk on water, they have to realize that they are not doing it by their own effort, but they are doing it.
A gift is a gift. And if the gift is a floatation device, put it on! You can't keep ducking under the water, all the while saying that the penalty is waived, while the floatation device is within your reach. You will drown!!!!!! Really and truly. God does not intend you to sink, while 'standing' on the notion that the penalty is waived and that you won't drown because of what He did. Part of what He did is issue flotation devices.
So you can't say in your heart, tis ok to be a failure in this or that because you are reunited. You are deceiving yourself about the reunited part. (You is plural here. Ahm not talking directly to you chew.) To be truly reunited you will rise above darkness, and sin, by the light shining in.
(Lord Jesus! I should quote myself, praise your name! Glory to your name, the glory is all yours.)
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Michael Harrison
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Yea Chewey! You know, all we can do is to ask Him, and leave it in His hands. For He is able, and He hears us always. And He is able to save us from ourselves, else we would all perish. But we don't take it for granted. And we know that we know, when we are compromising, and will be without excuse if we ignore when the Spirit is beckoning. Some people just do not get that!
If you tell your kids not to take a stick and stir up a yellow jacket bee's nest, and they still do it, knowing that they were to leave in two hours for Disney Land, well, isn't that what scripture addresses over and over? It shows that they preferred the hospital over DisneyLand.
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CHEWY
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I hope that His coming is at the right time. If I am to be "unashamed" I hope that He doesn't come back at one of those moments when I have fallen. You see, no matter how hard I try, I [we] will fall. I personally believe in a doctrine of eternal security, but I in no way endorse a teaching that says I can live any way I choose too. I firmly believe in a doctrine of perseverance and our striving to persevere.
Chewy-
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Michael Harrison
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Not on my arse wlydb. I am human! But Jesus is my victory over my humanity except when I fail to trust Him, or flippantly disregard His provision, which is exceedingly dangerous. For He can turn you over to it for the destruction of the flesh. For that matter so can I. I abide in Him.
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WildB
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So Michael you don't skate?
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Do you know how many people went to a Billy Graham crusade, who went forward when he gave the alter call, who confessed and believed, who went home and in a few days or weeks the devil lent them a new girlfriend, or lofty postion, and they forgot all about Jesus after that? Well some will say (and I use Billy Graham because he is the more famous example), that these were either not saved to begin with, or they are saved still! If they want to believe that, well? I for one do not recomend that they try it.
quote:
I have said it before, and may get to say it a thousand times, it is painful to realize that there are those who think salvation is something that they get, as though they have a 'ticket' (even if it is unseen) to get into heaven. But salvation is 'someone' that they get. Therefore if they are unfaithful to that one, do they think that they will get to keep Him? And that is what it is about - being faithful.
And here is a verse that addresses this:
"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."(1Jn 2:28)
That is, we don't want to be ashamed at His coming, or our going to Him. I mean, if when you see Him, all that you can do is look at your toes with your head bowed down, does that mean that you are looking for reward, or recompense? Regardless of what you think, you don't want to be ashamed at His coming. You don't want to have any explaining to do.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
The word persevere indicates a struggle or survival. [Enduring to the end] I think we would all agree that it isn't always easy to live the life Christ has set before us. So we should persevere.
What is really important is that we perservere as though we could lose our salvation. And we could (though so many disagree). Of course, if you are perservering you don't have too much to worry about. But here is the problem. When someone talks about what one could lose, whether it is their salvation, or their reward, here is the bottom line. Jesus is their reward. For He is their Salvation. Salvation isn't 'some-thing'. Salvation is someone!
I have said it before, and may get to say it a thousand times, it is painful to realize that there are those who think salvation is something that they get, as though they have a 'ticket' (even if it is unseen) to get into heaven. But salvation is 'someone' that they get. Therefore if they are unfaithful to that one, do they think that they will get to keep Him? And that is what it is about - being faithful.
You are right! It isn't easy to do on the one hand. But there is provision that enables us, yet we don't discover it if we don't perservere. That is why some people are like the seed which fell on the rocks. The seed 'took root', which means that they had to 'germinate'. That means that they took hold, and were counted among the 'living' ('Written' in the book of life) by being 'Born Again'. But, they took root in a little soil that was on top of the rock, which wouldn't sustain them unto becoming a tree, and they withered. It is oft repeated.
But I will tell you this: If they perservere, God will recognize their faith and split the rock, letting their roots grow till they reach fertile ground. That's our God! Amen. That is the moral of perservering. He will meet you and not let you perish. But He will if you do not perservere, or ask for His help in overcoming.
So what it means is that some abandon to temptation, and are lost, when comes the final tally, if they are not careful. They will say that they thought that they were saved, but will find out that they were a 'poor' steward of what He gave them, and it will be taken from them and given to somebody else because 'they neglected their salvation'.
Now, coming back to "It isn't easy to live the life set before us," that is the point. If the sheep do not follow the Shepard where He goes, the wolf will devour them. Protection is where the Shepard is. It is motivation to overcome when faced by temptation, for we know the cost that it is high. Therefore we do not for a moment forget that fact, or take it for granted that it doesn't matter if we abandon to failure.
Jesus will not abandon those who are counting on Him, but those who abandon Him, will be abandoned. He will stretch out His hand, but He will not force you to take it. Just pray that it will not happen to you this way, that He will find your hand should you encounter such darkness.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Do we strive to persevere in order to stay saved or do we strive to persevere because we are saved?
I believe we persevere because we are saved. It is the Holy Spirit Who helps us to persevere. Perseverance would be a good topic to discuss again.
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Kindgo
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Just so ya know..I agree with WildB, and Carol ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
Do we strive to persevere in order to stay saved or do we strive to persevere because we are saved?
Chewy-
I for one have fallen on my hockey skates a few times. But I was still on the ice when I fell.
I WildB Know that ONCE CHRIST BEGINS A WORK IN YOU HE WILL FINISH IT.
shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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That is all.....
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CHEWY
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Thank you both for responding. However, I never had a problem understanding where "you" stood in definition. I was really hoping for some other responders to this as well. [Oh Well] Isn't this where perseverence comes in?
The word persevere indicates a struggle or survival. [Enduring to the end] I think we would all agree that it isn't always easy to live the life Christ has set before us. So we should persevere.
I guess the ultimate question here, is ...
Do we strive to persevere in order to stay saved or do we strive to persevere because we are saved?
Chewy-
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Michael Harrison
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So there you go Chewy. Here we have Carol's view. In another place we have ANM's view, and tirelessly we hear wyldE's view. And there is another view or two. All of these views are differing Osas views. Non osas is much more limited in that it says, more or less simply, that there is a narrow way, and if you are not in it, you don't benefit in the death of Jesus on the Cross. But some people cannot accept that because they want something for nothing (Carol perhaps excluded).
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Carol Swenson
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Aaron,
Yes, I know salvation and repentance are not the same thing. And I know there are different kinds of salvation. In its most basic sense, salvation is the saving of a life from death or harm. Shall we define Christ’s saving work and the believer’s experience of salvation every time we use the word?
Chewy,
Apparently there are some people who think that “Once saved, always saved” means that they can live a life of sin. Most of us here do not believe that.
If you are interested, you will find that we have posted a lot of information about our OSAS beliefs on the previous pages of this topic. I am especially fond of the book of Romans.
Romans 3:8 (NLT)
And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
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Michael Harrison
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"OASAS!" Once always saved, always saved. "ASOS!" Always saved once saved, irrerversable, unretractrable, unimportant whether you bear good fruit, or bad, or abide in the vine, or live like the world. ??? And if you backslide (so called) you never were saved. That is the definition according to 98.5 percent of those who participated in this thread.
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CHEWY
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I don't mean to backtrack, but i think it would be beneficial to this thread if we would post the definition of what "OSAS" is in our own views. I see much discussion from differing views of this, but I don't think that all of us are applying the same definition.
Always seeking information-
Chewy-
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
The beauty of the online bbs is that you can either accept or reject correction without any consequence from God.
Not exactly! Not if He sees you! It is there even if it is not immediately apparent.
Practically speaking however, there is only one salvation. Jesus is His name. Everything else is a bentfit of the one.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
To me there is only one salvation, and that is Jesus dying on the cross for us. Whosoever believes in Him shall be saved. There is no other salvation than that.
eden
Right. I knew you and others believed this. That's why I added correction.
The beauty of the online bbs is that you can either accept or reject correction without any consequence from God.
Aaron
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becauseHElives
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Amen Eden there is only one salvation, that Salavation is Yahshua, that salvation is abiding in Him till the end of this mortal life...it may have many facets but it is only one salvation because salvation is Yahshua and He can't be divided...
Aaron repentance is not a one time deal, it is a life style, a daily taking up of the cross, of abiding in the Lord... read closely...
I could just as well said...
Aaron salvation is not a one time deal, it is a life style, a daily taking up of the cross, of abiding in the Lord...Salvation is a heart condition...as long as the soul abides IN the life source OF THE Spirit which is Yahshua repentance is as natural as breathing to the natural MAN ....read closely...
while salvation and repentance do not have the same definition, they are inseparable in meaning concerning the Salvation Yahshua is offering!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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To me there is only one salvation, and that is Jesus dying on the cross for us. Whosoever believes in Him shall be saved. There is no other salvation than that.
eden
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
This is true, but if we keep having to redefine our terms everytime we say something, this could get complicated. Or I should say, more complicated.
Carol, dear, take a look at this thread and tell me it's not already complicated. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Seriously though, if we think, for instance, that salvation and repentance are same word we will gain no knowledge on the matter. Specificity is necessary for understanding.
For example: to say that every type of salvation is once and forever is wrong. Also, to say that no type of salvation is once and forever is equally wrong. We have to know which salvation we're dealing with to gain any hope of understanding.
Aaron
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Aaron repentance is not a one time deal, it is a life style, a daily taking up of the cross, of abiding in the Lord... read closely
Case in point: you think salvation and repentance have the same meaning. I wrote about "salvation" you come back with "repentance".
Aaron
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Carol Swenson
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Aaron
quote:
If you don't understand that the scriptures speak of more than one type of salvation then whenever you read "salvation" or "saved", etc. you'll only think of "salvation unto eternal life". Then you'll errantly ascribe the characteristic of one salvation to another type.
For instance, salvation from the pursuit of your enemies CAN BE lost if the once saved person gets entrapped, again, into the enemy's schemes. The indwelling of the Spirit which seals one for eternity, however, cannot be lost. Salvation from the world's plan and into the Kingdom's plan CAN BE lost: God will give your work to another. That person will still go to Heaven but they will do so without the glory God intended them to have.
This is true, but if we keep having to redefine our terms everytime we say something, this could get complicated. Or I should say, more complicated.
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