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Author
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Topic: Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation!
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
WildB I did not shuffle anything....
Luke:23
6And He told them this parable: A certain man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but did not find any.
7So he said to the vinedresser, See here! For these three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree and I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue also to use up the ground [to deplete the soil, intercept the sun, and take up room]?
8But he replied to him, Leave it alone, sir, [just] this one more year, till I dig around it and put manure [on the soil].
9Then perhaps it will bear fruit after this; but if not, you can cut it down and out.
verse 25,26, & 27 of Luke chapter 23 do not negate what is said in 6,7, & 8 of Luke 23...
Aaron repentance is not a one time deal, it is a life style, a daily taking up of the cross, of abiding in the Lord... read closely
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Aaron
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
maybe you don't take Yahshua at His word but I do...
If this is true.
Then why did you write this:
quote:
I tell you, No; but unless you repent change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins, you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally.
when the verse is simply this:
quote:
Luk 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
?
Aaron
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
What?
If you don't understand that the scriptures speak of more than one type of salvation then whenever you read "salvation" or "saved", etc. you'll only think of "salvation unto eternal life". Then you'll errantly ascribe the characteristic of one salvation to another type.
For instance, salvation from the pursuit of your enemies CAN BE lost if the once saved person gets entrapped, again, into the enemy's schemes. The indwelling of the Spirit which seals one for eternity, however, cannot be lost. Salvation from the world's plan and into the Kingdom's plan CAN BE lost: God will give your work to another. That person will still go to Heaven but they will do so without the glory God intended them to have.
These are just simple examples.
Aaron
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WildB
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posted
BHL your mixxing up others mail from the Text then trying to shuffle a winning hand to yourself is clear to all.
The Dispensation of Grace does not teach what you shuffle out.
"Once Sealed Always Sealed” until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil. Your constant digs are un-called for.
And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part in this SEALING are nigh unto commiting the great sin.
Read prayerfully,
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
and
Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?
You don't understand this SEALING so you think to speak your long winded posts or short digs against it constantly. But in reality your New age blasphemyagainst the Holy Spirit can bring you to the unforgivable sin .
Repent while it is yet called day.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Kindgo, I am among the few that believe the True Gospel but Jesus/Yahshua said that there would only be a few that would be saved...
maybe you don't take Yahshua at His word but I do...
3I tell you, No; but unless you repent change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins, you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally.
4Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them--do you think that they were more guilty offenders debtors than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem?
5I tell you, No; but unless you repent change your mind for the better and heartily amend your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins, you will all likewise perish and be lost eternally.
6And He told them this parable: A certain man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but did not find any.
7So he said to the vinedresser, See here! For these three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree and I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue also to use up the ground [to deplete the soil, intercept the sun, and take up room]?
8But he replied to him, Leave it alone, sir, [just] this one more year, till I dig around it and put manure [on the soil].
9Then perhaps it will bear fruit after this; but if not, you can cut it down and out.
10Now Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.
11And there was a woman there who for eighteen years had had an infirmity caused by a spirit a demon of sickness. She was bent completely forward and utterly unable to straighten herself up or to look upward.
12And when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, Woman, you are released from your infirmity!
13Then He laid His hands on her, and instantly she was made straight, and she recognized and thanked and praised God.
14But the leader of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the crowd, There are six days on which work ought to be done; so come on those days and be cured, and not on the Sabbath day.
15But the Lord replied to him, saying, You playactors (hypocrites)! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or his donkey from the stall and lead it out to water it?
16And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?
17Even as He said this, all His opponents were put to shame, and all the people were rejoicing over all the glorious things that were being done by Him.
18This led Him to say, What is the kingdom of God like? And to what shall I compare it?
19It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his own garden; and it grew and became a tree, and the wild birds found shelter and roosted and nested in its branches.
20And again He said, To what shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of wheat flour or meal until it was all leavened fermented.
22Jesus journeyed on through towns and villages, teaching, and making His way toward Jerusalem.
23And someone asked Him, Lord, will only a few be saved rescued, delivered from the penalties of the last judgment, and made partakers of the salvation by Christ? And He said to them,
24Strive to enter by the narrow door force yourselves through it, for many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.
25When once the Master of the house gets up and closes the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door again and again, saying, Lord, open to us! He will answer you, I do not know where what household--certainly not Mine you come from.
26Then you will begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.
27But He will say, I tell you, I do not know where what household--certainly not Mine you come from; depart from Me, all you wrongdoers!
28There will be weeping and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves being cast forth banished, driven away.
29And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and sit down feast at table in the kingdom of God.
30And behold, there are some now last who will be first then, and there are some now first who will be last then.
31At that very hour some Pharisees came up and said to Him, Go away from here, for Herod is determined to kill You.
32And He said to them, Go and tell that fox sly and crafty, skulking and cowardly, Behold, I drive out demons and perform healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I finish (complete) My course.
33Nevertheless, I must continue on My way today and tomorrow and the day after that--for it will never do for a prophet to be destroyed away from Jerusalem!
34O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who continue to kill the prophets and to stone those who are sent to you! How often I have desired and yearned to gather your children together around Me, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you would not!
35Behold, your house is forsaken abandoned, left to you destitute of God's help! And I tell you, you will not see Me again until the time comes when you shall say, Blessed to be celebrated with praises is He Who comes in the name of the Lord!
no doubt you will say but they were never saved, because of what Yahshua says about "I do not know where what household--certainly not Mine you come from." in verse 25,26, &27 but what is said in 6,7, & 8 does not negate what is said in the other verses....
for instance...the parable in verse 6...A certain man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but did not find any.
Yahweh would be a very unjust to look for fruit on a tree that had no hope of producing fruit?
but Yahweh is not unjust in any thing...
I pray your eyes might be open and you can see that all those that do not endure to the end, will not be saved...
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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Romans 8:1 - 4 (NLT)
So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death. The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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posted
becauseHElives
I will make the explanation of eternal life easy for you.
If you believe/repent, He will save you from eternal hell.
You are spiritually dead and cannot enter heaven.
When He saves you, He makes you spiritually alive.......ahh eternal life.
He says you are spiritually dead and MUST be 'born-again', 'born-of-the-spirit'..........ahh spiritually alive.....Eternal Life.
When you believe/repent... He can legally forgive your sins because of the substitution death on the cross by Jesus Christ (Our legal scapegoat).
He then saves you when He puts His Holy Spirit in your body... making you NOT spiritually dead. (Titus 3:5)
The gift of the Holy Spirit....IS 'THE' Gift of Eternal Life.
He will never leave your body......you have crossed from death ..to life eternal.
becauseHElives
Not sure I could find a whole lot of support for your particular brand of the Gospel in the Scriptures, but that hasn't seemed to dull your conviction any.
I didn't do anything to gain my salvation, other than accept a gift, so I am not worried about losing it.
I am sorry for you... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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becauseHElives
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posted
Kindgo, you can not depart from something you only think you have....
Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.
you can not change the definition of words from their intended use because they do not fit a perverted, damnable doctrine...
that the same thing Bill Clinton did when he committed those horrible sex acts in the White House ...in the trail he said that not the way I define that word... and people in the court system were evil enough or stupid enough to let it go...
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Kindgo
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posted
What?
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Aaron
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If one fails to discern the different types of salvation then the truth of every kind will be lost on him.
Aaron
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Kindgo
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Matthew 11:29-30
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
Legalism is when we load another believer's yoke down with burden. Those burdens come in the form of our own personal convictions. God works with each believer individually, it is not our job to add to the burden of one another.
`
Rom 14:1 ¶ Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, [but] not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.
Rom 14:14 ¶ I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ [is] acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Kindgo
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Okay...!
Apostasy can be defined as the departure from the truth that one professed to have.
It does not mean that they actually possessed the truth.
Never, do apostates actually posses the truth. rather, it is a departure from a truth they professed to have because of an affiliation with a particular church.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Kindgo , Carol, Aaron, other OSAS teachers
i am still waiting for an response....
Kindgo I am not a legalist...but the Law of Yahweh has been written on the tables of my heart and by His Grace when I fail Him I run to Him and ask His forgivness...1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
but Kindgo and Carol you neither have given me any definition of "Apostasy"...
Kindgo a definition please... I know your doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"... I want you to think your doctrine through...the Bible is a complete Book not a collection of short stories....
Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.
Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, you wrote quote:
It is one thing to overcome the flesh and not do evil things, but quite something else to do good things.
This is a puzzling statement. In the Bible there are only two things we can do: do evil, or do good.
Or, to put that another way, not to do evil equates to doing good, and not to do good equates to doing evil.
Jeremiah 4:22
For My people are foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
So to repeat what you said quote:
It is one thing to overcome the flesh and not do evil things, but quite something else to do good things.
There is no such "inbetween world" as you propose. If one no longer does evil things, then of necessity one must be doing good things.
love, eden
"take that, MH"
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Eden
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Hi, WildB, you wrote quote:
Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
At the risk of being said to be "equivocating" by MH, isn't true WildB that Ephesians 4:30 applies to someone who is currently in the faith that Jesus died for their sins?
In others, the Bible declares that even believers still sin and so believers are admonished to "confess their sins", but while they sin they would be "grieving" the Holy Spirit.
But can you please state plainly for me. In your opinion:
Does it only take one single time of sincere believing and then one is "sealed unto redemption forever"?
Or is a certain time period of "sincere believing" required BEFORE one is sealed unto redemption forever?
And how long would such a period be? One day? One week? One year? Multiple years? At what point is a person sealed unto redemption?
Or are you of the opinion that all it takes is one moment of sincere believing and one is sealed for the rest of one's life?
Thanks for your answers. Be blessed, eden
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Carol Swenson
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APOSTASY is the act of rebelling against, forsaking, abandoning, or falling away from what one has believed.
Apostasy certainly is a biblical concept, but the implications of the teaching have been hotly debated. The debate has centered on the issue of apostasy and salvation. Based on the concept of God’s sovereign grace, some hold that, though true believers may stray, they will never totally fall away. Others affirm that any who fall away were never really saved. Though they may have “believed” for a while, they never experienced regeneration. Still others argue that the biblical warnings against apostasy are real and that believers maintain the freedom, at least potentially, to reject God’s salvation.
Persons worried about apostasy should recognize that conviction of sin in itself is evidence that one has not fallen away. Desire for salvation shows one does not have “an evil heart of unbelief.”
(Holman Bible Dictionary)
It is one thing to overcome the flesh and not do evil things, but quite something else to do good things. The legalist might be able to boast that he is not guilty of adultery or murder (but see Matt. 5:21-32), but can anyone see the beautiful graces of the Spirit in his life? Negative goodness is not enough in a life; there must be positive qualities as well.
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WildB
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"Once Sealed Always Sealed” until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.
And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.
Read prayerfully,
Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
and
Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?
You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.
Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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posted
Kindgo I am not a legalist...but the Law of Yahweh has been written on the tables of my heart and by His Grace when I fail Him I run to Him and ask His forgivness...1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
but Kindgo and Carol you neither have given me any definition of "Apostasy"...
Kindgo a definition please... I know your doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"... I want you to think your doctrine through...the Bible is a complete Book not a collection of short stories....
Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.
Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Carol Swenson
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We Cannot Save Ourselves
All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. Isaiah 64:6
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
The squirrel in his wire cage continually in motion but making no progress reminds me of my own self-righteous efforts toward salvation, but the little creature is never half so wearied by his exertions as I was by mine. The poor scavenger in Paris trying to earn a living by picking dirty rags out of the kennel succeeds far better than I did in my attempts to obtain comfort by my own works. Dickens’s cab-horse, which was only able to stand because it was never taken out of the shafts, was strength and beauty itself compared with my starving hopes propped up with resolutions and regulations. Wretches condemned to the galleys in the days of the old French kings, whose only reward for incessant toils was the lash of the keeper, were in a more happy plight than I when under legal bondage. Slavery in mines where the sun never shines must be preferable to the miseries of a soul goaded by an awakened conscience to seek salvation by its own merits. Some of the martyrs were shut up in a dungeon, and I remember the spiritual counterpart of that prison-house. Iron chains are painful enough, but what pain there is when the iron enters the soul! Tell us not of the writhings of the wounded and dying on the battlefield. Some of us, when our hearts were riddled by the artillery of the law, would have counted wounds and death a happy exchange. Oh blessed Savior, how blissful was the hour when all this horrid midnight of the soul was changed into the dawning of pardoning love!
(The Quotable Spurgeon)
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Carol Swenson
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Amen Kindgo!
If He is a Teacher, take His teachings, and what are they? These, that He is the Son of God; that ‘He came from God’; that He ‘went to God’; that He ‘gives His life a ransom for many’; that He is to be the Judge of mankind; that if we trust in Him, our sins are forgiven and our nature is renewed. Do not go picking and choosing amongst His teachings, for these which I have named are as surely His as ‘Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them,’ or any other of the moral teachings which the world professes to admire. Take the whole teachings of the whole Christ, and you will confess Him to be the Redeemer of your souls, and the Life-giver by whom, and by whom alone, we enter the Kingdom of God.
(Expositons of Holy Scripture: Gospels and Acts)
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Michael Harrison
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Union with Christ is by faith. It occurs, or is understood when the eye is single. Then one sees through His eyes, and with His heart. Union with Christ, blessed as it is, does not mean assured eternal security. For that one must endure to the end. What it means is that one is better equipped to see it out to the end knowing "The Eye of the Storm," instead of the dangerous winds.
To say that Union with CHrist is to be sealed with no possibility of demise is outrageous. It misrepresents the life that IS Christ. For it still comes down to the fact that one participates with Him to the end. One participates every step of the way. Lack of participation means Non-Union with Christ every time it occurs. It is the same as when Peter, having been walking on water, sank, because his faith sank. Unbelief plunged him down. He could have drowned in a sea of unbelief. Likewise, any other believer can fail the very same way.
"Take heed if you think you stand, lest you fall."
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Kindgo
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It is to the honor of Christ that He makes all his people persevere to the end. If they would fall away and perish, every office, and work, and attribute of Christ would be stained in the mud.
If any child of God would perish, then where were Christ’s covenant promises?
What is he worth as a mediator of the covenant and the guarantee of it, if he has not made the promises sure to all the recipients?
My brothers and sisters, Christ is made a leader and commander of the people, to bring many souls to glory; but if he does not bring them into glory, where is the captain’s honor?
Where is the effectiveness of the precious blood, if it does not effectually redeem?
If it only redeems for a time and then allows us to perish, where is its value? If it only blots out sin for a few weeks, and then permits that sin to return and to remain on us, where, I say, is the glory of Calvary, and where is the luster of the wounds of Jesus?
He lives, he lives to intercede, but how can I honor his intercession, if it is fruitless? Didn’t he pray, “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am;” [John 17:24] and if they are not finally brought to be with him where he is, where is the honor of his intercession?
Hasn’t the Mediator failed and been dismissed without success? Is he not at this very moment in union with his people?
But what is the value of union to Christ, if that union does not insure salvation? Is he not today at the right hand of God, preparing a place for his saints; and will he prepare a place for them, and then lose them on the road? Oh! can it be that he procures the harp and the crown, and will not save souls to use them?
My brothers and sisters, the perishing of one true child of God, would be such a dishonor to Jesus that I cannot think of it without considering it as blasphemy.
One true believer in hell! Oh! what laughter in the pit — what defiance, what unholy delight!
“Oh! Prince of life and glory,”
says the prince of the pit, “I have defeated you; I have snatched the prey from the mighty; I have torn a jewel from your crown.
See, here it is!
You redeemed this soul with blood, and yet it is in hell.” Hear what Satan cries out — “Christ suffered for this soul, and yet God makes it suffer for itself.
Where is the justice of God? Christ came from heaven to earth to save this soul, and failed in the attempt, and I have him here.
We have conquered heaven!
We have destroyed the eternal covenant; we have foiled the purposes of God; we have defeated his decree; we have triumphed over the power of the Mediator, and cast his blood to the ground!”
Can this ever happen?
What an awful question!
It can never, ever happen.
They who are in Christ are saved. They whom Jesus Christ has really taken into union with himself, will be with him where he is. But how are you to know whether you are in union with Christ?
My brothers and sisters, you can only know it by obeying the apostle’s words, “Be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure” [2 Peter 1:10].
February 14, 1864
by
C. H. Spurgeon
(1834-1892)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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BecauseHelives, you sir are a law keeper...you have been keeping laws since I met you, many years ago. I am sorry for you.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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becauseHElives
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Kindgo a definition please... I know your doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved"... I want you to think your doctrine through...the Bible is a complete Book not a collection of short stories....
Apostasy, from the Greek word apostasia, meaning withdrawl or defection, is the defiant falling away from Christianity by someone who had been a converted member of the faith.
Apostasy isn't a simple matter of sin by human weakness it's a deliberate, unrepentant rejection of the Truth by someone who became fully aware of it.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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Apostasy to me is like a man out in the middle of the sea letting go of his salvation device and thinkin hes still floating.
Heresy is like a man on a motor rescue craft running a mission, telling the crew we have no more gas when are tanks are really full.
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That is all.....
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Kindgo
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To accept that salvation is a work of God and also that it is God who is the only one who can keep us saved, is a doctrine that grates at the pride of man.
The reason we have so many false religions is because man wants to be responsible for salvation, man wants to think that his "works" and actions merit salvation.
But it is not true, all "works" for salvation are nothing but filthy rags.
The works of a Christian are simply "evidences" of salvation, but gain no credit with keeping it.
It takes humility to bow before the feet of Christ and admit that you have nothing to offer for salvation (no good in us at all), and that the only good we do after salvation is because the Holy Spirit enabled it, and all the sin is our because of our weakness.
But thanks be to God, that Christ is faithful when we are not.
A Christian can sin after salvation, just not as much--but even if we try to remain in our sins, then God will lead us out, gently at first, and if needed, then some stern discipline will come, and eventually death if we still resist His Spirit. But He never takes away our salvation--no never.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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becauseHElives
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WildB please explain what that has to do with "Apostasy"?
again only a person that has once been a believer can commit the act of Apostasy!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WildB
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posted
Ecclesiastes 5:3
For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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posted
Do any of you "Once Saved Always Saved" teachers understand a unbeliever can not commit Apostasy?
So why does the scripture warn against "Apostasy"?
Why do scripture promise that a Great Apostasy will take place before the return of the Lord?
“Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God.”
Hebrews 3:12
Apostasy (Greek ~ apostasia) appears twice in the New Testament as a noun (Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3) and here in Hebrews 3:12 as a verb (aphist—mi, translated “depart”). The Greek term is defined as a falling away, defection, withdrawal, or turning from what one has formerly turned to.
Therefore in this study we will seek to prove that an apostate is not an unbeliever but someone who once believed, and through personal choice has chosen to follow the Lord no longer. In doing so, we will clearly see that the teaching of eternal security as promoted by Calvinists is false and dangerous to one’s eternal life.
[1] To apostatise means to sever one’s saving relationship with Jesus Christ or to withdraw from vital union with and true faith in Him. In other words, personal apostasy is possible only for those who have first experienced salvation, regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.
“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13.)
Also notice what the writer of Hebrews 6:4-6 has to say upon this subject; “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and having tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.” It is apparent that it is not a mere denial of New Testament doctrine by the unsaved spoken of here, but the rejection of Christ and the things of God by a one time believer. Apostasy may involve two separate, though related, aspects:
(a) theological apostasy, i.e., rejection of all or some of the original teachings of Christ and the apostles and replacing them with liberal theology, false religion, or even atheism. Paul warns us that “the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.” (1 Timothy 4:1.) He later gives the reason for this apostasy in his second letter to Timothy; “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4), and
(b) moral apostasy, i.e., the former believer ceases to abide in Christ and instead becomes enslaved again to sin and immorality ~ “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:15-23.) Please remember that these verses were written to believers not to the unsaved. There same truth is taught in Romans 8:6-13 ~ “ For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” Again, notice that Paul is referring to believers not the unsaved. We see from the above Scriptures just how important it is to maintain our walk in Jesus Christ and not allow ourselves to be overcome by worldliness and sin.
[2] The Bible issues urgent warnings concerning the possibility of apostasy, designed both to alert us to the deadly peril of abandoning our union with Christ and to motivate us to persevere in faith and obedience. The divine purpose of these warning passages must not be weakened by the view that states that the warnings are real, but that in reality there is no possibility of apostasy or losing salvation. In fact we should regard them as a sincere alarm if we want to attain final salvation. The Bible is full of such warnings but the following verses should be enough to convince the child of God of the need to endure to the end. Acts 14:22 informs us that Paul exhorted the Church in Derbe to “continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” It is the Lord’s desire to present us, His Church, pure and holy, but this can only be achieved if we live according to His Word. Paul tells us that this is possible “if ye continue in the faith, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel.” (Colossians 1:23.)
As mentioned above, the Holy Spirit reveals to us that in the latter days people will fall away from the Lord and give themselves over to false doctrines. These doctrines damn the soul. This is why it is good to take the advice given to Timothy, “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (1 Timothy 4:16.)
If there was no possibility of turning away from Christ why would Paul further charge Timothy to “fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life.” (1 Timothy 6:12)?
It is this keeping a tight grip upon salvation that is so essential and it’s the very place that so many fail and fall. Because of the “once saved, always saved” doctrine many live ungodly lives. I have personally known Christians who lived like the world with no real desire to live for God, simply because they believed if they are saved and cannot lose salvation, then why worry! These are doing exactly what the Bible warns the early Church not to do;
“How shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?” (Hebrews 2:3-4.)
If the truth be told, what is really happening here is the hardening of the heart. Jehovah destroyed His own people in the wilderness because of their refusal to accept and follow His Word. Hebrews 3:8 cautions us, “Harden not your hearts, as in the day of provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness.” If we do we also will find that God will say unto us, “They shall not enter into my rest.” (:11.) This is the reason the very next verse warns us to “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the Living God” (:12.)
Calvinists fail to see that a Christian who backslides is a sinner and needs to be converted or else he will go to a lost eternity in Hell. This is what James points out so effectively in 5:19-20; “Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”
Very sound advice when we consider that this was James’ last statement to his readers. To sum up this section: We need to pay attention to what the Lord has given to us if we are going to reach the goal.
If we give up and turn away from the Lord, it is not that we have lost salvation but that we have thrown it away, we will not inherit eternal life. What the Lord has given to us needs to remain and we need to continue in Him. “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.” (1 John 2:24.)
[3] At this point let us turn to some examples of apostasy in the New Testament. All will admit that it is by God’s grace that we are saved through faith in our Saviour Jesus Christ.
To live contrary to the Word of God would make us fall from this grace, just as Paul pointed out to the Galatian Church ~ “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4.) This was his response to the Gentile Church in Galatia as they were becoming confused by the teachings of those who said that they must follow Jewish customs to be saved.
Calvinists have told me that such passages of Scripture (including those in Hebrews) were written to Jewish converts and do not apply to Gentile believers. Firstly, despite the fact that Hebrews was written to Jewish converts to Christianity they were Christians, therefore the Hebrews was written to Christians; Secondly, though Paul mentions the Jewish legalists, he was writing to the Gentile Church in Galatia; Lastly, the New Testament letters were written to Churches or at least individuals in Churches, and these Churches were made up of Christian believers regardless if they came from a Jewish or Gentile background ~ “There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile], their is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28.)
The possibility of losing salvation sounds blasphemous to some, yet this is exactly what the Word of God teaches. If we were to reject Christ we would be making shipwreck of our faith.
“Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenćus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:19-20.) Once you have made shipwreck your faith in Christ there are no other salvation vessels provided by the Lord. The only way you can have full assurance of salvation is by maintaining a continual trust in Christ, or to put it another way, by staying in His fellowSHIP.
God makes us aware that there will be false prophets in the Church. It may be argued that these people are not real Christians, but it is obvious that they are in the Church to deceive those who are saved and to lead them astray. The apostle Peter writes, “There were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways.” (1 Peter 2:1.)
Yet, to say that the false teachers\prophets and their followers were not once true believers flies in the face of Truth. In verses 20-22 Peter makes it abundantly clear that this is the case ~ “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”
If you are still unconvinced that a person can fall away, put away and reject the salvation he has received, then what do you think about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)? What do you think of Demas who forsook Paul “having loved this present world” (2 Timothy 4:10)?
In fact the Bible predicts that during the last days, the antichrist age, there will be a falling away from the Lord (2 Thessalonians 2:3.)
[4] The steps that lead to apostasy are as follows:
(a) " Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14.) The lack of personal holiness is the major factor in backsliding and falling away from the Lord. Almost everyone who stops following God’s way has been enticed by this world. There is a general lack of seriousness in the Church today regarding the call to commitment and holiness. It has become outdated and legalistic to some, yet it is a must if we are going to see the Lord. This desire to serve God must continue regardless of what temptations or tribulations we may face in the Christian life. The sad but true fact is there is very little substance to the gospel being presented today. Because of this there is a corresponding lack of dedication amongst believers. They fall away from Christ because they are not rooted in Him ~ “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” (Luke 8:13.) This is why preachers of the Gospel need to get back to preaching the Bible and to tell their listeners that they should be “rooted and built up in Him, and stablished in the faith.” (Colossians 2:7.) Today there is too much concern about what other people think. Unless we are bold in our faith it is easy to become embarrassed about being rejected for being a Christian and to seek man’s approval. “How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?” (John 5:44.)
(b) As worldliness gets its claws into a believer’s life the joy of serving Jesus departs. There is no longer a drawing near to God and His Word. The things of God begin to take second place until they become the last thing on our mind. Listen to these instructions that were originally written to the Hebrews: “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. . . . Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them. . . . But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh unto God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.” (Hebrews 4:16; &:25; 11:6.)
(c) Is it not amazing that what Christians once called sin is now tolerated as acceptable behaviour. Christians, like the world, are no longer ashamed of their sin but openly flaunt it in the guise of so-called Christian Liberty. What really happens in this case is that righteousness is no longer loved. Listen, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abuses of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10.) If you happen to see your own sin in that list then you need to get right with God now before it is too late! Do you want to see a confirmation of what Paul wrote? Well let’s look at Ephesians 5:5 ~ “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.” My aim here is not to condemn you but to make you alert to the true facts of our responsibility in serving Jesus Christ. In fact Hebrews 3:13 gives us each such a command ~ “Exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.”
(d) Through hardening of the heart the ways of God are rejected. Soon the still small voice of God’s Holy Spirit is drowned out with the world’s multitudes of voices offering a more enlightened, liberal way. It is then that the Holy Spirit of God is grieved and quenched in our lives. The temple He came to inhabit has been violated by sin ~ “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?” But don’t stop there! “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” (1 Corinthians 3:16-17.)
[5] If apostasy continues its course unchecked, an individual may eventually reach the point when no second beginning is possible. Continuing to wilfully sin is so dangerous yet pastors and teachers do not warn their flock. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin, but a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” (Hebrews 10:26-27.) Through false teaching Christians do not believe that there is a limit to God’s patience. Hebrews 10:31 reminds us that “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.”
To safeguard against the danger of ultimate apostasy all we have to do is love God enough to obey all His Word. It is that easy, yet why do so many fool around and play religion? In fact they have doomed themselves to a lost eternity, and at the same time deceived themselves with the thought, “Well, at least I said the sinners prayer.” If you find yourself in this position at this moment then do something about it. “Today, if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts.” (Hebrews 3:7-8, :15; 4:7.)
[6] It must be made clear that while apostasy is a danger for all who drift from the faith and fall away, it is not made complete without constant and wilful sinning against the voice of the Holy Spirit.
[7] Those who by an unbelieving heart depart from God may think they are Christians, but their indifference to the demands of Christ and the Holy Spirit and to the warnings of Scripture points otherwise. Because of the very real possibility of self-deception, Paul exhorts all those claiming salvation to “examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.” (2 Corinthians 13:5.)
[8] Finally, any person who becomes sincerely concerned about his spiritual condition and finds in his heart the desire to return to God in repentance, has sure evidence he has not committed unpardonable apostasy. God wants you to live under the power of His saving faith. If Jesus did so much for you in dying on the cross to bring you to eternal life, then is it too much to ask that you live for Him the way He requires?
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:1-2.)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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Going around and saying someone isn't saved is as foolish as it gets. I cannot say that the person saying such is not saved, but the fruit as evidenced by the tongue, doesn't bear it out.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
If you believe that you can lose your salvation because of your behavior, it means that you don't believe Jesus took all of the sins of your life to the cross (Col 2:13-15), and therefore you don't believe He saved you completely (Hebr. 7:25).
It is never always 'past tense'. (Like how I said that?) Therefore the argument is void. It is present tense delivery, as one abides in Him. So it is not something 'done' in the past, but something being done in the present.
It is always, and forever will be NOW! So forgivness for the past does not excuse one in the now. Notice that we will be judged for the deeds done in our body!!! And consider this one vigorously:
Rom 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
He wasn't preaching to unbelievers.
Now, in order to come to Jesus initially, one has to have his or her past sins dealt with. But that is not what covers for him (or her) from moment to moment as we strive to reach the end of our journey. What Jesus is interested in is what we do with the now. Regrettably, some discard and disregard the now as 'covered', and they go on. My concern is that they are in for a shock, and I have so much as expressed this. But the naysaying dish it saying that I don't know what I am talking about. We'll see!
"...if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
This is a responsibility. Naysaysers can talk about 'works' till there is a blue heifer to sacrifice; but because it is not by works does not indicate that there is no responsibility. Do what you want with this. You are accountable.
Because:
Rom 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
But it is not being led by the Spirit of God to insist that there is no responsibility, or no accountability just because it is not of works.
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Carol Swenson
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Kindgo ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
It is important to note that Judas was not a true believer; he was a hypocrite. He had never believed in Jesus (John 6:64-71), he had not been bathed all over (John 13:10-11), and he had not been among the chosen ones whom the Father gave to the Son (John 13:18 and 17:12). How close a person can come to salvation and yet be lost forever!
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Kindgo
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Judas was an ungodly, ambitious, selfish man. He could have come to Jesus, but he didn’t. He is the greatest story of lost opportunity the world has ever, ever heard.
I forget who it was that wrote, “Man as of old by himself is priced. For thirty pieces Judas sold himself, not Christ.”
And that’s right. He was a man totally dominated by greed.
There are some who want to imagine that Judas was saved, but there’s no evidence whatsoever.
“One of you is a devil,” said Jesus. And when he died, it says he went to his what?
"His own place."
No, I don’t believe Judas was saved. He is even called the son of perdition.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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becauseHElives
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Kindgo you could not have even read what I posted...
you responded in less than 3 minutes...
you are the epitome of the OSAS mentality…
you are not as the Berean’s to study and see if something is true or not, you have been taught the lies of the apostates and are happy to die not knowing the truth…
you need to examine the scriptures, see the warnings, they apply to believer as well as the lost….
2 Thess. 2:1 -
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie; that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Why don’t you try to answer some of the question the article I posted addresses instead of sticking your head in the sand!
Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one's profession of faith and practices. As I have heard it termed so many times, only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider. The world or unbeliever can't apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can't fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.
Acts 1:16-26 tells of Peter and the disciples choosing another apostle to fill the vacancy left by Judas. Verse 16 speaks of the Scripture being fulfilled that was spoken by the Holy Ghost concerning Judas. Notice verse 17, "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. " Also notice in verse 20, "And his bishopric [the charge of instructing and govern¬ing in spiritual concerns; office] let another take." Concerning the choosing of a new apostle, verse 25 says, "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship [the office or dignity of an apostle], from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." How could Judas fall from a position appointed to him by our Lord Himself if he never really was an apostle? According to the scriptures a qualification for a bishop is one who is blameless (1 Timothy 3:2). If a bishop or elder of the church is to be blameless, how much more an apostle who would be a founder of churches. Do we really think Jesus would choose an officer of the church contrary to His Word? Men may, but not our Lord!
On certain occasions such as on the mount of transfiguration, the apostles were called by their specific names such as James, John, and Peter. Very often apostles were named specifically in certain settings of whom Judas was also named specifically and referred to as he who betrayed Jesus. When the Scripture says "his disciples," "my disciples," or "the twelve" without specific names, should not we believe that it includes Judas as being numbered with the twelve (Acts L17; Matthew 10:1; 11:1; Mark 4:10)? He was part of the ministry from the beginning. It is interesting to note that after Judas betrayed Christ and committed suicide, the Gospel writers refer to the disciples collectively as "the eleven" (Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9, 33). Henceforth all Scripture quotations in this tract that speak of "his disciples" and especially "the twelve," include Judas.
In my personal study of Judas, the Lord wanted me, once a believer in unconditional eternal security ("Once Saved, Always Saved"), to see through His Word that Judas was once a believer who apostatized unto perdition. Through that study, the Spirit revealed about eighty-five other verses (not mentioned in this tract) which refer to "his disciples," of whom Judas was a part. Also found in the four Gospels are eight references to "thy disciples," nineteen references to "the disciples," and twenty-one references to "the twelve. "
Psalm 41:9 says of Judas, "Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." Notice the expressions in this verse: mine own double ownership; familiar-intimate, close, unreserved converse; friend-as Abraham was the friend of God; I trusted-the Lord trusted Judas! Jesus also called Judas his friend even after Judas betrayed Him with a kiss (Matthew 26:49-50). Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends (Zechariah 13:6). Jesus never called the Pharisees His friends.
Let us look at many other verses that give us undeniable proof that Judas was once saved. We find the following:
He was a child of the bridechamber (Matthew 9:15).
He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus called unto Him His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1-13). See also Mark 6:7-13 and Luke 9:1-6.
Jesus told His disciples that if anyone would reject them or their message from Him, they would receive severe judgment (Matthew 10:14-15).
Judas was a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).
In Luke 12:32 Jesus says to His disciples, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."
He once heard and followed the Good Shepherd (John 10:27).
"He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matthew 10:40).
He was part of Jesus' family (Matthew 12:48-50).
Jesus said that His heavenly Father was the disciples' heavenly Father by using the terms your, thy, and our Father in relation to His disciples' relationship with His Father (Matthew 10:20; 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 14, 15, 18, 26, 32; 7:11).
Judas was given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13:10-11; Hebrews 6:4-6).
His eyes saw and his ears heard-he understood (Matthew 13:16).
"Then they [Judas was there] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33).
Matthew 19:27-28 says, "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye [always plural in the Greek] which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Judas was not faithful unto the end; therefore, he forfeited the promise of a throne in heaven. Judas' fall did not negate the fact that he was promised a throne. But that promise was conditional, like all God's promises.
Judas partook of the Passover. Jesus said of it in Matthew 26:18 "I will keep the Passover at thy house with my disciples." "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve" (Matthew 26:20). See Luke 14:25-35 for Jesus' definition of being His disciple (Love Him with all your heart, deny self, and take up your cross and follow Him, forsaking all else).
"And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him" (John 13:2). Not until after the washing of the disciples' feet did Satan enter into Judas to execute the betrayal of Jesus (John 13:26-27). This was the second time recorded that Satan entered into Judas. The first time was in Luke 22:3-4 when Judas conspired with the chief priests to betray Jesus. If Satan was always in Judas, why did he need to enter into him on two different occasions?
Judas was not the only one that Satan used so masterfully. What about Peter? When Jesus rebuked him saying, "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23). Whether Satan entered in or not, he turned Peter so masterfully that Jesus had to address the devil as if Peter was not even there. Does that mean that Peter was not Jesus' disciple?
What about John 6:70? "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" This was a future prophecy not yet fulfilled at that time but recorded in the present tense as was Isaiah 9:6 ("For unto us a child is born ..."). Compare also the terminology in Psalm 41:9 which refers to Jesus and Judas one thousand years later-spoken in the present tense.
In Matthew 17:22-23 Jesus foretells His betrayal. Verse 23 gives the disciples' response, "And they were exceeding sorry." Judas was exceeding sorry. He apparently did not know he would be the one to betray Jesus.
Judas was called, commissioned, chosen, and ordained an apostle of Christ by our Lord Himself. He preached repentance, healed the sick, cast out devils, and had the treasury bag. John 4:2 says he baptized others. Mark 9:35-41 says he belonged to Jesus. Note especially verse 35, "the twelve," and verse 41, "because ye belong to Christ." He believed on Jesus (John 2:11). John 12:4 says, "Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him." Both statements in this verse are true. He was a disciple who also then betrayed his Lord, became a devil (John 6:70), a thief (John 12:6), a murderer, and a traitor (someone who once belonged to a person or a cause but betrayed the cause). You can't betray what you never pledged allegiance to. Through covet¬ousness he was drowned in destruction and perdition (1 Timothy 6:9-10), and through transgression he fell (Acts 1:25). He became lost and the son of perdition (John 17:12), and went to his own place (hell), whereas before his fall he was destined to go to heaven.
These points constitute ample evidence that Judas once belonged to Jesus. Yet he obviously fell from his first love. Many believe that the Scriptures that speak of the end of Judas' life mean he was always lost and destined for hell from the beginning. But if this is true, then does that mean that all the Scriptures that speak of his belonging to Christ mean he was always saved and went to heaven? Of course not! There is only one logical, Scriptural explanation: he was once saved and became lost. If he had lived and not apostatized, he would have been called a Christian with the other disciples in Acts 11:26. The Bible teaches that throughout the entire Christian life, salvation is conditional and present tense. It also teaches that the saved always have a strong hope for the final inheritance of eternal life. It teaches that sal¬vation comes by faith and repentance that produces good works of obedience through God's grace and our love for the Lord. We must persevere by God's power (His part), "through faith" (our part) (1 Peter 1:5). And we are preserved in Jesus Christ our Lord, living for Him (the Word). If we go back to the world (forsaking the Word), we commit spiritual adultery. According to the Scriptures, if we die in this condition of sin, we cannot hope for heaven to be our eternal home. Let us continue to look "unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), lest we also fall away unto perdition.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Kindgo
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Judas was never a believer and therefore never saved. Jesus addressed a group that was following Him and said, "'But there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him." (John 6:64).
Then, addressing the 12 disciples Jesus said, "'Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?' Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him" (John 6:70-71).
Jesus knew He had to go to the cross and chose Judas as a disciple because He knew that he would betray Him.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
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posted
Kindgo
quote:
You are either forever saved or you were never saved.
Judas: “Once Saved” – “Forever Lost”
Was Lucifer always the Devil? Was he not once a perfect anointed cherub of God who fell through the sin of pride (Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-19)? "The angels which kept not their first estate" (Jude 6) also fell from a perfect position. Did not they all possess eternal life in the present tense until it was forfeited? The same can be said of Adam and Eve. Did not they once possess eternal life (present tense) based conditionally upon their obedience? Yes, it is possible to lose eternal life of your own free will. Otherwise these would have never lost their eternal life. How much more are we accountable to God in our present condition of regeneration through the blood of Christ. "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?" (Hebrews 2:3).
What about Judas Iscariot? Some say Judas was never a true apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ. They rightly consider his end but never truly consider what the Bible says about his beginning. Thus many believe he was a false apostle, though not one Scripture calls him a false apostle. He was an apostle who apostatized.
Apostle means one sent forth, while apostate means one going, or gone backward, as abandoning, forsaking one's profession of faith and practices. As I have heard it termed so many times, only a believer can ever rightly be labeled a backslider. The world or unbeliever can't apostatize (fall away or go backwards), because an unbeliever has never believed unto salvation in Christ. They can't fall when they are already fallen. In order to fall you must have a position from which to fall.
Acts 1:16-26 tells of Peter and the disciples choosing another apostle to fill the vacancy left by Judas. Verse 16 speaks of the Scripture being fulfilled that was spoken by the Holy Ghost concerning Judas. Notice verse 17, "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. " Also notice in verse 20, "And his bishopric [the charge of instructing and governing in spiritual concerns; office] let another take." Concerning the choosing of a new apostle, verse 25 says, "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship [the office or dignity of an apostle], from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." How could Judas fall from a position appointed to him by our Lord Himself if he never really was an apostle? According to the scriptures a qualification for a bishop is one who is blameless (1 Timothy 3:2). If a bishop or elder of the church is to be blameless, how much more an apostle who would be a founder of churches. Do we really think Jesus would choose an officer of the church contrary to His Word? Men may, but not our Lord!
On certain occasions such as on the mount of transfiguration, the apostles were called by their specific names such as James, John, and Peter. Very often apostles were named specifically in certain settings of whom Judas was also named specifically and referred to as he who betrayed Jesus. When the Scripture says "his disciples," "my disciples," or "the twelve" without specific names, should not we believe that it includes Judas as being numbered with the twelve (Acts L17; Matthew 10:1; 11:1; Mark 4:10)? He was part of the ministry from the beginning. It is interesting to note that after Judas betrayed Christ and committed suicide, the Gospel writers refer to the disciples collectively as "the eleven" (Matthew 28:16; Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9, 33). Henceforth all Scripture quotations in this tract that speak of "his disciples" and especially "the twelve," include Judas.
In my personal study of Judas, the Lord wanted me, once a believer in unconditional eternal security ("Once Saved, Always Saved"), to see through His Word that Judas was once a believer who apostatized unto perdition. Through that study, the Spirit revealed about eighty-five other verses (not mentioned in this tract) which refer to "his disciples," of whom Judas was a part. Also found in the four Gospels are eight references to "thy disciples," nineteen references to "the disciples," and twenty-one references to "the twelve. "
Psalm 41:9 says of Judas, "Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." Notice the expressions in this verse: mine own double ownership; familiar-intimate, close, unreserved converse; friend-as Abraham was the friend of God; I trusted-the Lord trusted Judas! Jesus also called Judas his friend even after Judas betrayed Him with a kiss (Matthew 26:49-50). Jesus was wounded in the house of His friends (Zechariah 13:6). Jesus never called the Pharisees His friends.
Let us look at many other verses that give us undeniable proof that Judas was once saved. We find the following:
He was a child of the bridechamber (Matthew 9:15).
He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus called unto Him His twelve disciples. (Matthew 10:1-13). See also Mark 6:7-13 and Luke 9:1-6.
Jesus told His disciples that if anyone would reject them or their message from Him, they would receive severe judgment (Matthew 10:14-15).
Judas was a sheep among wolves (Matthew 10:16).
In Luke 12:32 Jesus says to His disciples, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."
He once heard and followed the Good Shepherd (John 10:27).
"He that receiveth you receiveth me" (Matthew 10:40).
He was part of Jesus' family (Matthew 12:48-50).
Jesus said that His heavenly Father was the disciples' heavenly Father by using the terms your, thy, and our Father in relation to His disciples' relationship with His Father (Matthew 10:20; 5:16, 45, 48; 6:1, 4, 6, 8, 9, 14, 15, 18, 26, 32; 7:11).
Judas was given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13:10-11; Hebrews 6:4-6).
His eyes saw and his ears heard-he understood (Matthew 13:16).
"Then they [Judas was there] that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God" (Matthew 14:33).
Matthew 19:27-28 says, "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye [always plural in the Greek] which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Judas was not faithful unto the end; therefore, he forfeited the promise of a throne in heaven. Judas' fall did not negate the fact that he was promised a throne. But that promise was conditional, like all God's promises.
Judas partook of the Passover. Jesus said of it in Matthew 26:18 "I will keep the Passover at thy house with my disciples." "Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve" (Matthew 26:20). See Luke 14:25-35 for Jesus' definition of being His disciple (Love Him with all your heart, deny self, and take up your cross and follow Him, forsaking all else).
"And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him" (John 13:2). Not until after the washing of the disciples' feet did Satan enter into Judas to execute the betrayal of Jesus (John 13:26-27). This was the second time recorded that Satan entered into Judas. The first time was in Luke 22:3-4 when Judas conspired with the chief priests to betray Jesus. If Satan was always in Judas, why did he need to enter into him on two different occasions?
Judas was not the only one that Satan used so masterfully. What about Peter? When Jesus rebuked him saying, "Get thee behind me, Satan" (Matthew 16:23). Whether Satan entered in or not, he turned Peter so masterfully that Jesus had to address the devil as if Peter was not even there. Does that mean that Peter was not Jesus' disciple?
What about John 6:70? "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?" This was a future prophecy not yet fulfilled at that time but recorded in the present tense as was Isaiah 9:6 ("For unto us a child is born ..."). Compare also the terminology in Psalm 41:9 which refers to Jesus and Judas one thousand years later-spoken in the present tense.
In Matthew 17:22-23 Jesus foretells His betrayal. Verse 23 gives the disciples' response, "And they were exceeding sorry." Judas was exceeding sorry. He apparently did not know he would be the one to betray Jesus.
Judas was called, commissioned, chosen, and ordained an apostle of Christ by our Lord Himself. He preached repentance, healed the sick, cast out devils, and had the treasury bag. John 4:2 says he baptized others. Mark 9:35-41 says he belonged to Jesus. Note especially verse 35, "the twelve," and verse 41, "because ye belong to Christ." He believed on Jesus (John 2:11). John 12:4 says, "Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him." Both statements in this verse are true. He was a disciple who also then betrayed his Lord, became a devil (John 6:70), a thief (John 12:6), a murderer, and a traitor (someone who once belonged to a person or a cause but betrayed the cause). You can't betray what you never pledged allegiance to. Through covetousness he was drowned in destruction and perdition (1 Timothy 6:9-10), and through transgression he fell (Acts 1:25). He became lost and the son of perdition (John 17:12), and went to his own place (hell), whereas before his fall he was destined to go to heaven.
These points constitute ample evidence that Judas once belonged to Jesus. Yet he obviously fell from his first love. Many believe that the Scriptures that speak of the end of Judas' life mean he was always lost and destined for hell from the beginning. But if this is true, then does that mean that all the Scriptures that speak of his belonging to Christ mean he was always saved and went to heaven? Of course not! There is only one logical, Scriptural explanation: he was once saved and became lost. If he had lived and not apostatized, he would have been called a Christian with the other disciples in Acts 11:26. The Bible teaches that throughout the entire Christian life, salvation is conditional and present tense. It also teaches that the saved always have a strong hope for the final inheritance of eternal life. It teaches that salvation comes by faith and repentance that produces good works of obedience through God's grace and our love for the Lord. We must persevere by God's power (His part), "through faith" (our part) (1 Peter 1:5). And we are preserved in Jesus Christ our Lord, living for Him (the Word). If we go back to the world (forsaking the Word), we commit spiritual adultery. According to the Scriptures, if we die in this condition of sin, we cannot hope for heaven to be our eternal home. Let us continue to look "unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), lest we also fall away unto perdition.
-Dennis Conley
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
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It doesn't matter that you say you're born again. Any work you do to earn or keep your salvation after saying that you've accepted the work that Jesus did for you is evidence that you don't believe the work is finished.
This subjects you to the penalty of the Sabbath breaker in Numbers 15. His was a a physical death, but yours will be a spiritual one, because by continuing to work after the work is done you're saying that Jesus didn't finish the job so you have to complete it and save yourself.
It means you don't believe He saved you, and that means you haven't done the one and only thing He told you to do; “Believe in the One He has sent.”
It means you aren't saved.
If you believe that you can lose your salvation because of your behavior, it means that you don't believe Jesus took all of the sins of your life to the cross (Col 2:13-15), and therefore you don't believe He saved you completely (Hebr. 7:25).
It means that you don't believe God has accepted responsibility for keeping you saved (2 Cor. 1:21-22) and you have to finish the job yourself by meeting some standard of behavior.
That means that you're working to keep your self saved after your work of salvation was finished, which means you're subjecting yourself to the penalty of the Sabbath breaker in Numbers 15. It means that you aren't saved.
There isn't much time left for the Church. The Lord could come while you're reading this. Please consider these things carefully.
Make sure you're really saved by grace through faith.
Not by works, lest anyone boast. (Ephes. 2:8-9)
You can't be working to become saved and you can't be working to stay saved. You are either forever saved or you were never saved.
Remember, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (Romans 4:5)
You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
'I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; but I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection; lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.—1 COR. ix. 26-27.
OBSERVE,
(1.) How earnestly Paul sought the kingdom of heaven. - "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air."—Ver. 26. It was long after his conversion that Paul writes in this manner. He could say, "To me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." He felt it better to depart and be with Christ. He knew there was a crown laid up for him; and yet see how earnest he was to advance in the divine life. He was like one at the Grecian games running for a prize. This is the way all converted persons should seek salvation. "So run that ye may obtain." It is common for many to sit down after conversion, and say, I am safe, I do not need to strive any more. But Paul pressed toward the mark.
(2.) One particular in which he was very earnest.—"I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection." He had observed in the Grecian games, that those who were to run and fight, were very attentive to this: "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things."—Ver. 25. This was one thing that Paul strove for, to be temperate in all things, in eating and drinking, "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection."
(3.) His reason for all this earnestness.—"Lest when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Not that Paul had not an assurance of his salvation; but he felt deeply that his high office in the Church would not save him, although he was one of the apostles—the apostle of the Gentiles—one that had laboured more than all the rest; though many had been converted under his ministry, he knew that still that would not keep him from being a castaway. Judas had preached to others, and yet was cast away. Paul felt also, that if he lived a wicked life, he would surely be cast away. He knew there was an indissoluble connection between living in sin and being cast away; and, therefore, it was a constant motive to him to holy diligence. What he feared, was, being "a castaway." It is taken from the trying of metals—the dross, or part that is thrown away, is said to be reprobate, or cast away.
Robert Murray M'Cheyne
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/d.haslam/mccheyne/castaway.htm
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Carol, yew are sooooooo funny! One moment you have me worried. The next you make life worthwhile. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif) ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Hiii eee ya!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Yeah, okay, (ahem)
Hiiiiieeeeee...
Yag! OW! Ouuuch! OW! OW! OWuuuuhhiiiieeeeee...
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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Who are you number two? Are you related to number one; because you usually don't get to be number two without some kind of connection, such as a relationship, or friendship? Or are you here, and number two because you just happened to be the first to come across the bbs when it went on line? I have to say, it has always been nagging me.
Carol: ANM means Hi-yah as if stated with a shrill, drawn out Hiiiiieeeeee, followed by a sharp, and punctuated "yah," with a grunt incorporated therein, or following! I can hear it! Then, whack! (Then some Hollywood special effect sound...) It is a very identifiable karate movie expression one makes to sound like they are a security guard with karate experience, to impress the foe. It is supposed to make them stand down, or run!
That is sthyllinesth NAM! It is purely a 'happy' term spoken by those who do not believe that they will be penalized for immorality, and who cling to the doctrine of asos for security in spite of reckoning with impending judgment in the fear of God.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Cain rebuked his brother sharply, but he wasn't in the proper relationship to do so.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Kindgo
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posted
Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tts 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Tts 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
To bad we are not children, tossed to and fro, and carried about by the sleight of your sillyness and your long winded post.
Thou sayest it wyldb! Thou abidest by it to stand or fall accordingly. I am glad you are so well anchored in your choices.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Michael! That is not what we teach, and you know it. Anyone with a brain who can read what we've posted will know that you are making false accusations.
And this from somebody who, when they got on board, was my best friend in the beginning. Now you slander me by accusing me of making false accusations??? I intend to defame no one. I only assert the truth.
If it were appropiate, I could take you through past post and show you otherwise concerning the rhetoric. You perhaps have a short memory Carol.
It appears that I am becoming isolated because of understanding asos differently. I am used to being ganged up on, from my youth, and it always occurs eventually. But I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. I cannot however but preach what is, and let the hearer upon whom it falls be quickened or not. If someone contends with it, and persists in crossing their fingers in the sign of the Cross, and uttering unintelligible nonsense incoherently, and in repetitive fashion, persistantly stepping out as though calling attention to themselves, the one will be visited, though not by the Lord. I perfer to go around. But if I am not allowed by the afore mentioned, I will prayerfully consider a recourse.
Moreover, there is something very wrong when someone says that "the Jews are saved, they just don't know His name." Yet no one challenged it! Who are these who call themselves believers? By the way, if the Jews are saved since Christ died on the cross, even though they don't know His name, then the gentiles are also. Therefore no one needs to repent. If one is already saved, then repentance isn't needed. In fact, Jesus didn't need to die, if that is the case, for all were already saved.
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ANM
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Hey ANM! Hi ya!
Sounds like your trying to karate chop me with that hi ya stuff,whats up !!
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whats up?
Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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ANM
Advanced Member
Member # 7184
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posted
Ya, stop your sillyness michael....that is all.
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whats up?
Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Michael! That is not what we teach, and you know it. Anyone with a brain who can read what we've posted will know that you are making false accusations.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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