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Originally posted by WildB:
"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Im not counting on anything of myself, Jesus Christ is the believer in me.

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That statement creates a wonderful opportunity to plug the KJV concerning the translating of the "Faith of" Jesus as written therein. Some weaker translations think nothing of stating it as "Faith in" wherever the phrase is found (Particularly the NIV!!!) But there is a difference and they are not true to it.

The "Faith of" Jesus would be what you describe here. It is quite true, to be observed. However, the KJV also uses "Faith in" where appropiate. By your comment, you seem to have eliminated this part of the 'equation', passing it off as either irrelevant, or nonexistant. Such is not the case. Your 'participation' IS necessary, for that is how He created us. And your participation is the "Faith in" part, which realizes the "Faith of" part only when practiced, exercised, or initiated. In other words, if you were perhaps talking to a nonbeliever, you might council the one to 'choose' to believe, for it is an act of the will, and it is a choice without which no transaction between the one and Him will take place.

Jesus Christ is the one with faith in Himself, as you have stated which would be as per the Eph verses 8&9; but it is not realized except by 'believing' in Him, which effects the 'receiving' of Him, else the 'faith' is in vain. For many believe in Him, but not unto receiving Him. They do not benefit by believing without receiving, which requires submissive belief, which means "going under the cross."

By your estimation, everyone everywhere is saved because Jesus is the believer, which settles it for everyone.



You exist, therefore you participate, or don't. Thereisaplace for those who don't, or who think they do but don't.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I was going to ask what denomination you identify with, but I remember that you said you have been Catholic, and then Assemblies. So then you said that one should go directly to the source. I agree with you there. However something isn't adding up. I'm not quite sure that you have gone to the source, properly so.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by ANM:
Anyway, Gods alot bigger than we can fathom, I figure if we are gonna come up with truths based on the word of god, then we ought to take it all into account. Theres alot of different belief systems floating around, some right and some wrong. The wrong ones are usually birthed out of a previous false belief system and so on. I certainly do not know everything,but what Im pretty darn sure about ...Im pretty darn sure about based on pondering lots o different views. Some people just want to be right even if they are wrong, they're not really concerned with truth, they are more concerned with being the know it all, they are at this point(theres always hope) unteachable. Pride plays a role in this I think. Anyway, heres the scripture I promised ya, actually if you read the whole chapter and take all things into account you'll see what I mean, don't take one scripture and form a belief system around it....it will be false. Ther best way to really understand what something means is to ask the Lord what it means, as far as Im concerned until you ask him...your probably wrong no matter where you heard it from, thats a good rule of thumb anyway.


romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I'll be glad to read your post. I may learn something. However, to say that any Jews since Jesus was crucified are saved without knowing His name, is serious error. They cannot be saved A.D. but by that name.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I guess that everybody is saved, hhh? Nobody goes to hell. In fact, it probably doesn't exist?

Actually, the way that you make a stand on this probably means that you think that Buddah is another way to heaven?

It is not 'judgment' to discern that when Jesus says that He is the way, the truth and the life, that no man comes to the Father but by Him, He means tho no man is saved by any other person. He is the link. He is the missing key which one must find. The door is closed and locked without Him. Jesus we preach, and the way of the Cross cannot be shorted. He who comes in another way beside the gate is a thief and robber.

Is this the Rodesianridgeback? Because you sound like him/her.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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The ministration of death and condemnation is the law, the ministration of righteousness is the spirit, you live under law if you like, there is no condemnation in that except for your condemnation for yourself and those around you that you condemn with the law

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not only am I fre from the wages of sin which is the transgression of the law, I am fre from the power of the law.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I don't knnow of any Jew since Jesus was crucified, who is saved unless he is a believer in Christ Jesus, and under HIS blood. There is one name given under heaven whereby man shall be saved. That is Jesus Christ. Whoso does not believe on Him is not saved.

This is fundamental to almost every denomination that I know. It is because scripture declares it. So your view would place you borderng on a cult.

(I would have rather avoided this.)

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
You confuse me ANM. The first part of this post sounded really right on! However, when you said this, you really opened a can of worms:

Qwote! The jews are saved because they believe in the messiah, they just don't know his name yet.

That tells me where you really are at, for it is impossible for the Jews who do not know Jesus, to be saved (present tense). If they don't even know His Name, they certainly are not. So that throws the rest of what you say you believe, in complete doubt. Either you don't really believe it, or you have a formulation which is doctrinally substantive, but without Christ in it. You have revealed yourself. What are you really about? For all I know now, you are really a Muslim. What say ye? Do you come here to mock the forum?

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I bet Lot's wife is still saved - too! Uh-huh!


I have always thought of 'looking back' as looking back to before you were saved. It is a loving the world thing, which is confirmed by what happened to Lot's wife! That doesn't seem to parallel with a 'law', or 'wineskin', or leaven, or foolish thing! Those Hebrews who are now completed Jews might be predisposed to look at it this way. Perhaps this is you? But I see it as a looking back to the world thing. That would be a falling from grace thing.

Concerning Galations, and the 'works' thing; just because it is not by works, it doesn't mean that we are not having the law fulfilled in us. Otherwise we are not abiding in Him, but rather 'in the flesh'. Do we know what the Bible says about that? So to justify the misery of perpetual failure, do we rationalize it to mean that we are clean, even though we are dirty. That is what it means to some; most; in fact, almost everybody. This was Paul's beef.

So he addresses it. To be dirty is to be outside the law. There is no justification for that.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

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Mike,

"Therefore you have not passed from death to life in the fullness that He intends."

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Therefore you are not saved, right?

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It is not a question of 'saved' here. It is a matter of 'Treasure laid up in Heaven'. The fullness that He intends fits the description of 'Know Him'. Just because one does not know Him in the fullness does not mean that he or she is not saved. Nevertheless, one does not want to take anything for granted lest they take too much for granted.

"No one putting his hand to the plow and looking back is fit for the Kingdom." They are not fit to receive the Kingdom of God. It would be like how living on junk food is to the body. It cannot be healthy and full of vibrance. But there is still a body there. Yet, if one persists, presumably one could 'expire' from malnutrition. In that case a malnurished saint could be thought of like a dead flower planted among those flush with beauty and life, there in heaven. I should think that the gardener would pluck out that flower and put one there that is pretty. (The parable of the talents expressed differently!)

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Mike,

"Therefore you have not passed from death to life in the fullness that He intends."

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Therefore you are not saved, right?

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Qwote! 4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)

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Here is where I have trouble with 'translations' other than the "Authorized King James Version." When you tell someone to read the word the way it is written, how can they if it is subtly modified, which so much of each recent translation is. And some of these translations only 'feed' the imagination that a reader already has because the translator already thinks the same way.

KJV
Eph 2:4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,"
Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)"

The Billy Graham Library is in Charlotte N.C. Come visit it!

So, you say you cannot see a difference! I will keep it simple and point out only one: "By grace ye are saved." That is different than in the translation above. The above reads: "It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!"

The difference is that the translation above says "have been saved." The King James Version, true to the truth states, "Are saved!" There is a difference between tenses. The above translation is past tense. The KJV says "are," present tense. This is significant in that one's salvation is maintained by abiding in the Ark (a present activity), where the above assumes no responsibility, considering it to be done. (This is not the meaning of done!) This goes back to what I said about participation. We participate, or we do not benefit. If one puts 'saved' as being past tense, then there is no participation after the fact of one's salvation. Therefore there is no 'obedience' needed. That would be 'predestined' in spite of one's self. This is not the intention of the Spirit.

Now, the law still is in effect. How to fulfill the law is what has changed. One does not disregard the law and get away with it. It is enforced.

Let's look at this: Government tries to regulate everything. Here is the difference between the way our forefathers established our government to work, in a nutshell, and the way so many other governments work. Whereas our forefathers desired "Limited Government" other governments try to control everything, which is miserable. (But we are tending towards this very thing with a vengence.) But for illustration: If for example we were to make a law to regulate the weather, it would not be a law. We cannot control the weather. The ingredient that makes a 'law' to be what it is is the fact that it CAN be 'enforced'. We cannot enforce a law to control the weather, therefore the law would not be a law because it would be impotent. It would be wishful thinking.

But in our Christian lives, the law 'still applies', though it is not by our 'striving to accomplish it' that it is is effected. That does not mean that it isn't a requirement to be fulfilled. And here is where we are either 'in' or 'out'. Being 'out' is a dangerous place to be.

For some say that grace makes one to be a saved ball of dirt by something "HE did" an eon ago. But that is not what grace does. Grace effects the necessary change in the present. This is why we are either in or out, in that, some see grace as 'pardoning' in His eyes; whereas that belongs to forgiveness. But grace changes, if through 'faith' one understands this: For by grace you are saved, by faith (that is, as you believe) in that which He 'is' doing (grace), and we are therefore benefiting thereof, by His grace (by His doing what needs to be done) by the very believing, which is our part, and without which nothing happens. It is our obedience, so that it could read, "By grace are ye 'being' saved, through faith, which you don't have, but it is imparted to you by your very believing, which is your participation in His saving grace, which enables His Grace to be 'manifest' in your life.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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And an enemy to God would be someone trying to keep law therefore producing a love for the things of this world.

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Apart from law sin is dead.

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....Let me try to explain my view on sin...first, the sin that LEADS TO DEATH.

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Our issue that causes us to produce the fruit of the sinful nature is "unbelief". We don't believe that Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness in every area of our life yet. Subconsciously we still think we need to keep law to attain righteousness,

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???

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Lets say we happen to be coveting, we know coveting is the fruit of the sinful nature, the coveting is no longer sin because the law for righteousness has ben abolished, the coveting is now fruit, fruit that reveals Im striving to keep law which is the sin. I simply acknowledge the fruit, confess the "sin"

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NO! No no!
Don't covet! That is preferrable to 'acknowledging' and confessing the sin, which you accept as 'the norm'. The fruit of which you refer, which leads to the sin in the first place is "The Fruit of Unbelief." Yet you said that you have all of the faith that you need? If you have all the faith that you need, you will not bear the fruit of unbelief, which manifests the sin.

If you are 'dead', then you avoid 'striving to keep the law'. ??? If you are dead, (this is where faith comes in) you are dead to sinning. If you are trying to keep the law, then by nature of failing to keep the law, you produce the sin. (This sounds like what you are trying to say. I will give you credit!) If you are trying to keep the law, then you are alive (not Him).


Pay attention! You said, "The just shall live by faith," but they die by sin. Remember, it says that the 'just' shall live by faith. Therefore if they die by sin, they are, by nature of not 'living' by faith, not 'living' - but dying. (Not as though they are cut off from Him. But they could be if it continues.)

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We have passed from death to life

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I think the strange thing you are missing as most of the christian church is this....

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Uh huh yahsway! Good post. But that is so funny where you almost said, "You will know them by their 'produce'. I hope none of it is tomatoes!


ANM, I find what you say agreeable sometimes: Other times,strange.

Said ye:

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death. I believe that scripture is to unbelievers only, otherwise everytime we sin we would be dead again. ....think on that a minute.

Well, If you think that Rom 6:23 is for unbelievers, you are not alone. Almost the entire Christian faith accepts the verse in that way. But here! Listen to James:

Jas 1:14 " But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed 5) Then when lust has conceivedit bringeth forth sin, and sin when it is finished bringeth forth death."

You are not dead in tresspasses and sin, as the unsaved, but you are dieing.

Concerning the passage on 1 John, the way you are using it would be presumption.

....think on this a minute:

James 4:4, where he is talking to Christians, mind you, "Ye adulterers and adultresses, know ye not that friendship with the world is emnity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world, is the enemy of God."

For you osasers, that sounds ominous!

He said that I said:

Sin is darkness!

So ye said:
Sin is not darkness, believing you are justified by your actions is darkness, believing you are justified by faith is light.

Huh? believing you are justified by your actions is not sin? It is the sin of unbelief.

Ye said:
Cleanses from all sin is a lifelong sanctification process, to walk in the light means to believe we are righteous and to take every thought captive and make it obedient.

That sounds like works to me i.e. being justified by your actions. You didn't read what I said about sanctification, did you. You make the assertionthat it is a lifelong process, but it is based on what you think, not on truth. I understand.I have to stop here. I'll read more of it later.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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I never hear any of you anti Once sealed Always Sealed people talk about the Prodical Son?

Whay is that?

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I never hear any of you anti Once sealed Always Sealed people talk about the Prodical Son?

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Originally posted by yahsway:
I keep reading that Yeshua nailed the law to the cross or that the law was nailed to the cross.

I believe it was the ordiances of the law that was nailed to the cross, meaning it was the penalty for breaking the law that was nailed to the cross.
Yeshua(Jesus) went to the cross to pay for our SINS not to do away with the Law, for He even said that He did not come to do away with the law or the prophets and that not one jot or title would pass away from the law until heaven and earth were gone away.

Yeshua paid the price we should have paid for Breaking the Laws of God.

Gods laws still stands today and if one dies withouth the blood covering and faith of/in Yeshua then he will be judged by the laws of God.

We are to have the laws of God written on our Hearts, not written on stone. Do we have a heart of flesh or a heart of stone?

If one says i believe in Yeshua, yet continues in sin, maybe he has a heart of stone. And who are those who do not inherit the kingdom of God that the bible describes?

Neither Adulters, liars, murders ect.. I think this can be found in Rev.

Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, what does? Our sinful nature? or our new nature in Yeshua? What did Yeshua tell the woman who was about to be stoned after her accusers walked away?

"Go and sin no more".

I believe the heart of the matter is this. We cant really judge who is saved and who isnt. We do not have the capability to read the hearts and minds of people. There is only one possible way to get a clue as to whether one might be saved and that is looking at their life/lifestyle, the fruits they produc ect...

But even then we could be decieved in that Yeshua said that MANY in that day would say But Lord, Lord look what we did in your name ect..

And Yeshua tells them to depart from Me I never knew you, you workers of iniquity(lawlessness)

I believe the OSAS doctrine is a deception. I know sooo many people who believe in it and truly live like the devil himself and they are not afraid because as one of my friends said to me years ago "It does not matter what I do or dont do, I believe in Jesus."

How sad, seems like a life wasted when we should be letting His life work thru us, and letting Him do that work thru us, instead some cheapen what He has done and say okay, i accept Him because He doesnt require anything from me and doesnt care how i live after i accept him because once saved im always saved. Thats a great deal! But thats really a deception.

But Yeshua is coming back for a spotless bride. thourouly cleansed by Him, sold out completely to Him, an unadulterated Bride. Shalom

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

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If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything. Even if I am producing the fruit of the sinful nature because I am in the lifelong sanctification process I am as righteous as he is.

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Not!

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."

Death is separation from God, cut off from the vine, oh vinedresser, from whence we draw the parallel of being cast into the fire.

The wage of sin is to be dead!

1Jn 1:3 "That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship [together] with us: 'as' truly, our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jn 1:4 "And these things write we unto you, that your 'joy' may be full."

Because:

1Jn 1:5 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

SO:

1Jn 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

Sin is darkness!

1Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

That means that we are 'delivered' through the blood, for it says 'it cleanseth': not it covereth, or hideth.

The condition:

1Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light..."

The result:

"...we have fellowship one with another, [Jesus and me, or thee] and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

That is an IS, not a lifelong sanctification process, unless it takes you that long to get it. However, it usually is just a justification for clinging to sin to insist that it is lifelong.

So to quote you once again:

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If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything.

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If you are 'IN' Christ, which is the very same as to say (which is why we have such writings):


1Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light..."

Then there is no 'despite anything', simply:

"...we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son 'cleanseth' us from all sin."

For you cannot be in sin, and have fellowship. You may have awareness of Him, but it is not fellowship.

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death."

Now, not just later!

Here is where the admonition on overcoming fits in. He who is not an overcomer, is a compromiser, who will 'justify' his condition by saying something like "Even if I am producing the fruit of the sinful nature because I am in the lifelong sanctification process I am as righteous as he is."

It is not so! You are departing from Him by sin. But Romans says: "Sin shall not have 'dominion' over you," which is to say that it cannot force you to do, or abide in it. For then you would be doing what Jesus is not, which would 'separate' you from Him.

And if sanctification is a lifelong process, what if you had only ten minutes to live from the time you met Christ? How sanctified would you be in ten minutes? If sanctification is a lifelong process, how long must you live to reach sanctification? If sanctification is a lifelong process, then clearly 'you' must have something to do with it, but you don't. So why is it a lifelong process?

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything. Even if I am producing the fruit of the sinful nature because I am in the lifelong sanctification process I am as righteous as he is.

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If I am in Christ I am as righteous as He is despite anything.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I know what you believe ANM, and I am saddened. I wish I could say something edifying. Hummmm! How about this? It says that He will not blot out their names from the book of life. Well! It stands to reason that if they are written there, they got there when one was saved. Therefore, prior to that, their name was not there to blot out. And since it says that He will not blot out their names, what is it but that they 'met the condition' for it not to be blotted out. So if their names were not blotted out if they 'met the condition', then there must be a response for 'not meeting the condition'. It is implied, even though it is not specifically stated. That isn't the least bit hard to figure out.

Be it far from me to impose this on you. Every man stands or falls notwithstanding anyone else. You have to face Him for yourself.

~

What is by faith? Righteousness is by faith. So, how do you say that unrighteousness is covered by grace? It is not so. It you have 'righteousness' by faith, then unrighteousness is done away with by nature of the fact. But if you are in unrighteousness, and you claim to be righteous by faith, you presume.

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If you judge others as sinners according to the law then you probably have judged yourself the same way,

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"But it is a small matter that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment. Yea, I judge not mine own self. For I know nothing by myself. Yet am I not hereby justified: But He that judgeth me is the Lord." 1Cor 4

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God says righteous by faith, you say righteous and saved by what I do.

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You think? I don't. God says "Righteous" by faith. It is simply, 'righteous by what He does', not by what you do (actively). But if HE does it, you know it (intimately) else you don't know it, which signifies 'lack of faith', which leaves you only one recourse, which is to presume something that is not. This is tantamount to being deceived. Righteousness is not being dirty (thorn in the flesh) but looking to the Father, like an angel. That is as far off as osas. In fact, it is the very thing that justifies osas. It is the only way some can rationalize it. For nothing else makes sense.

The heart of the New Covenant is 'righteousness' which is by faith, not 'acceptance' in spite of being a mud pie. Defeat is not victory. Darkness is not light. Righteousness is not failure overlooked. And our works don't accomplish it. Not one single 'work' accomplishes it. It isn't earned. It isn't merited, but it is not impotent. It is not future tense. It is now, if we have it by faith.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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If you judge others as sinners according to the law then you probably have judged yourself the same way,

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God says righteous by faith, you say righteous and saved by what I do.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I didn't want to aggrevate the situation at the other post, so since this fits over here, well!

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You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

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There is a problem that I see with this logic! Causing 'little ones' to stumble, or fall, carries with it the notion that they are 'caused' to experience separation from God. That is the notion of what it means to stumble. They become filled with doubt about the truth. But according to oasas, this cannot happen. Therefore the concern is entirely misplaced.

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Posts: 85 | From: pa | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged |