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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation! (Page 5)

 
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Author Topic: Oh No, I Think I Just Lost My Salvation!
WildB
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BecauseHeLiives ot~ how can you be soooooo shureeee

that you nameing Yahshua, like you freely do, is correct?

Personally I've only known a few with such arragance.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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Carol I did not mention the word slave...

your response was completely out of the context of my post and the Scriptures...

for those with ear to hear and a heart to respond

God Is Faithful - Even When We Are Not!


Abraham is known to the church as a man of faith. Indeed, the Bible holds him up to us as an example of faith: "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (Galatians 3:6). "So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham" (verse 9).

God had appeared to Abram (as he was called then) and said: "...Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward" (Genesis 15:1). The Lord also promised Abram he would be "...buried in a good old age" (verse 15). In addition, God pledged that anyone who tried to harm or curse him would himself be cursed: "And I will...curse him that curseth thee..." (12:3).

Beloved, these are some incredible promises - protection, a long life, heavenly intervention. And God had spoken these things to Abram personally!

Scripture testifies that Abram "...believed in the Lord; and (God) counted it to him for righteousness" (verse 6). It also says Abram was a "friend of God."

Here was a pious, believing servant of God - a man visited by the Lord Himself and promised personal protection and a long life without fear of harm. And Abram believed God. He trusted that the Lord would shelter, protect and shield him from all danger.

You remember Abram's story from this point. He left his country at God's command - totally by faith. God told him, "Everywhere you put your foot will be your land."

Now, Abram was living peacefully on a mountain between Bethel and Hai when a famine struck. Evidently he had a lot of cattle, and he needed pastures and water to feed them. So he decided to pick up and move: "...and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there [live for a while]..." (verse 10).

This was Abram's first mistake. He never should have left the land to which God had sent him. When Abram left the Promised land, he was about seventy years old, and his wife, Sarai, was about sixty. And as they entered pagan Egypt, Abram looked at his beautiful wife and asked her to join him in a subterfuge:

"...I know that thou art a fair woman to look upon: therefore...when the Egyptians shall see thee, that they shall say, This is his wife: and they will kill me, but they will save thee alive. Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee" (verses 11-13).

Abram was saying, "When we get to Egypt, the men will see how beautiful you are - and they'll lust after you and try to kill me! Please - tell everyone you're my sister. I'm putting my life into your hands!"

This was a half-truth. Abram and Sarai had the same father but different mothers, so Sarai was his half-sister. She would only be telling "half a lie" - all to save Abram's skin!

Here was a man who is known to us as the father of faith. God had appeared to him, promising him great protection. But, suddenly, he no longer took the Lord at His Word! Abram knew Egypt was a place of lust, idolatry, confusion - yet he was ready to go there and put his family at extreme risk.

Sure enough, when they got to Egypt, word spread about Sarai's great beauty. Every prince and leader around found out about her. Abram sensed this, so he reminded Sarai: "Remember, you're my sister. We have a deal. My life is in your hands!"

This was absolute cowardice - absolute lack of faith! Abram was subjecting his life to his wife's protection, not God's - to his own human strategy. What a shameful, faithless act! This great man of faith was willing to let his wife be taken from him and put into a heathen harem, where she might be defiled by wicked rulers.

And she was taken by Pharaoh. Scripture says, "The princes...of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. And he entreated Abram well for her sake..." (verses 15-16).

Do you understand what was happening here? The promised seed was to come through Sarai - and she could have been defiled by heathen men!

Shame on both of them for entering into this subterfuge! There was no excuse for Abram's behavior. Can you imagine any godly man placing his wife in the hands of a heathen reprobate? I can only wonder what went through Sarai's mind as she was taken from her husband.

Yet Pharaoh gave Abram a great dowry for Sarai, pouring out all kinds of blessings on him - sheep, oxen, donkeys, camels, servants. Overnight Abram became wealthy. But I wonder if he even slept that night! I would hope he spent his nights on his face before God, questioning his cowardice and lack of faith. How could he sleep when he knew his wife was in the hands of a heathen? She could be defiled - corrupting the seed of God's promise.

I ask you - how could such a man of faith let this happen? Had Abram completely forgotten God's promises? Why didn't he realize, "They can't kill me. God said I would live to a ripe, old age. He promised to be my shield, my protection!"

The Truth Is, Abram Was In No Danger!

Had Abram trusted God - had he stood up boldly and declared, "This woman is my wife. Hands off!" - God would have honored him. The Lord would have protected both him and Sarai. "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13). The actual Greek reading of this verse is: "If we are faithless, yet He remains faithful...."

If you had been on the scene that day with Abram, you probably would have said to this man, "Abram, you are really messed up! You're supposed to be a man of faith. God has personally appeared to you and given you all His promises. But now you've missed it completely. You've manipulated and mistreated your lovely wife. You've sinned against the light, Abram. You are unworthy of the blessings God promised you. You're finished!"

No! This was never in God's mind about Abram. God is faithful - even when we are not! The moment Abram committed his life to the Lord, God had a plan for him. And God wasn't going to allow some present circumstance or failure to stop His eternal purpose for Abram's life.

The Lord had promised him, "I will be your shield!" And now God moved in to make good on His promise: He plagued Pharaoh's house! I believe the disease He sent on them made it impossible for any man even to touch Sarai. God shut every womb by shutting down every man. Pharaoh didn't lay a hand on Sarai!

So God did shield Abram and his wife. And now there was no possibility of any heathen person in Egypt to say, "The seed was polluted!" No - God was faithful, even when His people were not!

Somehow Pharaoh realized what had happened. We don't know whether Sarai confessed to him, or whether the Lord revealed it to him. But when he found out she was married, he rebuked Abram, saying, "Why did you do this?" "...take her, and go thy way" (verse 19). "And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had" (Genesis 12:17-20).

God's plan for Abram continued uninterrupted. It was not thwarted by Abram's lack of faith, even though he had failed God miserably. Likewise, beloved, whatever God determines for your life, you cannot stop, if you simply put your life in His hands. He is faithful concerning His purposes for our lives - even when we are not!

Twenty-four years later Abraham (as he was now known) moved south and encamped between Kadesh and Shur, settling down in Gerar. Again he apparently had to move about to feed and water his huge herds of livestock.

Abraham was now ninety-nine years old, and Sarah (as she was called now) was almost ninety. Over the years Abram had seen God's faithfulness in every area of his life. He had defeated the kings who had invaded Sodom. He had rescued Lot and his family. He had met Melchizedek, king of Salem. He had given birth to a son, Ishmael.

Wouldn't you suppose that in those twenty-four years, Abraham had learned to fully trust the Lord? He'd had this many more years of seeing God's keeping power at work in his life - of seeing God's leading and intervention in all his ways.

But in Gerar, something similar happened. King Abimelech, who ruled over that land, set his eyes on Sarah - and he wanted her for his harem! (This must have been one striking woman. I'd like to know what kind of soap Sarah used - what kind of diet she was on, what kind of exercises she did - to be so desired at the age of ninety. Everywhere she went, her reputation of beauty spread - such that kings sent for her!)

What did Abraham do now? He went to Sarah, saying, "I'm asking you to help me again. You're going to have to say you're my sister. Sarah, my life is in your hands!"

Can you believe it? He was still a coward, after twenty-four years! "...and [Abimelech] took Sarah" (Genesis 20:2). Sarah went into yet another pagan's harem - but God's seed had not yet been born. Once again, Abraham put his wife, his family and the future Israel in jeopardy.

If you had stood by and witnessed this, no doubt you would have asked yourself, "What kind of man is this? Is he really supposed to be an example of faith, a picture of a man who believes God? He's telling outright lies!"

Yet what was God's response? He didn't deal with Abraham the way we would have. He didn't say, "Now you've really done it! I delivered you out of a mess like this once before, but now you've gone straight back to your old compromise. Will you ever grow up in Me, Abraham?

"Now I'm going to have to chastise you. You need to understand how you have failed Me, grieved Me, mistrusted Me. I'm going to step aside and let you pay the consequences. Now you'll reap what you have sown!"

No - never! "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful..." (2 Timothy 2:13). God did not chide Abraham or abandon him to work things out for himself. On the contrary, God's plan for Abraham went on unhindered - and right on schedule!

The Lord did the same thing with Abimelech he had done with Pharaoh: He shut every womb! Nobody could touch Sarah. God told Abimelech: "...I withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her" (Genesis 20:6).

Here Is a Picture of God's Restraining Hand!

God restrained Abimelech from acting foolishly to thwart His purposes. He actually kept Abimelech from sinning!

I know all about the restraining hand of the Lord. As I look back over the years of my walk with God, I realize I would not be here today if He hadn't had His restraining hand upon me. He will let His children go only so far - but no further!

I remember awful discouragements in my early days of ministry. At times I felt overwhelmed by all the financial responsibilities. Often I felt like a failure as a husband and father as well. I would get so low, I thought my faith would shatter completely.

On a few occasions, I was convinced there was no use in going on. I never considered suicide or giving up completely on my Lord. But I was tired of all the obligations - tired of not understanding why my life had so many struggles. During those times, I would go to the bank, withdraw some cash, hop in my car and drive away, thinking, "That's it - I've had it! I'm just going to disappear. God will have to take care of my family and this ministry. I can't take any more!"

One particular time, I was driving along, halfway to Mexico from Dallas. But God was sitting in the backseat. He kindly said, "David, where are you going?"

Like Jonah, I answered, "I've had it, Lord. I can't take any more! I'm going to Mexico. Nobody will know me there, and I can witness freely without all these obligations. I'm not running away from You, Lord - I love You. Nor am I running from my family. I love them too. I just don't feel like I'm the man of God I should be."

The Lord said, "Turn the car around now, David, before you do something stupid." But I kept driving. Then, suddenly, I heard His voice saying clearly, "Now, David - turn around now! If you drive another five miles, you're on your own!"

The fear of God hit me - and it shook me up! I have never wanted God to take His Spirit from me. And that warning was His loving hand, restraining me!

Tell me - how many times have you been on the brink of making a foolish, horrible mistake? But then God's restraining Spirit came upon you, telling you, "Hold it - stop right there!" Even when we are faithless, He remains faithful. He comes to restrain us, to hold us - to keep us from doing stupid things!

What About David's Unfaithfulness?

When Samuel anointed David to be Israel's king, the young man was given a new heart: "...Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward...." (1 Samuel 16:13).

David became a man who was godly, wise, loved, full of the fear of God: "And David behaved himself wisely in all his ways; and the Lord was with him" (18:14).

He was a man of much prayer. He praised the Lord as few people ever have, blessing the heart of God with his songs and psalms. Nobody could have been more intimate with the Lord than David.

David was also a man of great faith. He went on to slay Goliath and become a mighty warrior for Saul. Women sang of his exploits on the battlefield. God's Spirit clearly was upon this man, and the Lord obviously had a plan for his life.

But then Saul came after David with wrath, and David had to flee. He ran for his life, hiding in caves. After a while, David simply got tired of the battle. He grew weary, unable to take any more. He must have thought, "If I'm so special to the Lord - if I'm His anointed, chosen man for this hour - then why am I in such deep trouble? Why are so many against me?"

So, David took 400 of his men and fled to Gath - the very hometown of the giant Goliath, whom he had slain. Talk about an unfaithful act! David hadn't asked the Lord about this move. On the contrary - he had decided to put his life in the hands of King Achish of Gath, seeking refuge from him.

But in Gath, hostility arose against David. Everybody whispered, "Isn't this the man people sing about? Hasn't he killed thousands of Philistines? He's the one who killed our giant!"

David was captured and taken to the king. He knew he was trapped, in trouble - so he put on an act of insanity! He pretended to be a madman, raving incoherently, scratching the walls, spittle running down his beard. He hoped that somehow his "insanity" would deliver him from the clutches of King Achish.

Yet, what a poor testimony it was before all of his men! Achish merely looked at David and said, "Why did you bring me a madman? This man has lost his mind. Get him out of here!"

Now, what if we had been on that scene? We would have seen this godly, pious, gentle man raving incoherently, crawling on the grass, screaming and scratching. And we'd have said, "You're not the king of Israel. You blew it, David. You played the fool!"

Indeed, David was unfaithful at that moment. But God was still faithful! He didn't write David off. No - while David was playing the madman, acting foolish, God's eternal purpose for him went onward. Saul's kingdom was growing weaker every day. God was moving everything into place to ensure David's blessing!

If you had gone to the Lord and pointed out all of David's foolishness, I believe God would have answered: "I anointed David king - and he will be king! I know his heart. He will repent quickly, running back to Me - because he has a contrite heart! He is still under My favor and blessing. And My plan for him is still on schedule!"

Perhaps, like David, you have gone through some kind of insane period in your life. You faced utter chaos - and you gave up, saying, "I can't handle it anymore!" So you acted according to your flesh, playing the fool, getting ahead of God.

You ended up angry at yourself, disappointed, ashamed. You thought, "How could an anointed, Spirit-filled person like me have failed God so badly? Surely His blessing has to be taken from me now. I've been so vile, manipulative, dishonest, faithless. God can't use me anymore. He can't still be working on my behalf!"

You are so wrong! God will not allow some present struggle of yours to upset His call, plan and purpose for your life. You may have gotten off track - but God's plan is still on track. It is moving full speed ahead!

Whenever I pray, I keep nearby what I call my "crying towel." At times I am under such a heavy burden that I weep into that towel until there are no more tears left. I'll pray for months about certain overwhelming needs - and yet at times my prayers go unanswered.

On one occasion I cried a river of tears - and I got up from prayer without any peace, without any sense of having broken through. I rolled up that towel and flung it across the room, screaming, "Oh, God - I've cried a river of tears! I have pleaded and prayed for so long. But You don't answer! Lord, what do You want from me?"

I walked away heavy-hearted. And yet the very next week, one prayer after another was answered!

The whole time I had been raging at God - throwing my towel against the wall, thinking He had failed me - He had been at work behind the scenes! He was moving people's hearts, arranging things - bringing about the plan He had in mind all along.

I had to run back to Him in repentance - crying like a baby over my unfaithfulness. "I'm sorry, Lord - forgive me! Oh, that I had held on for just one more day!"

I was not faithful in trusting - but He remained faithful!

What About Peter - the Apostle
Who Cursed and Denied His Lord?

This was the man who said he would never desert Jesus. Yet, not only did Peter deny he knew Him - but he did it with a stream of profanities pouring from his mouth!

What if you had been standing near the fire, listening to Peter? You would have thought, "Is this the man who was on the Mount of Transfiguration? the one who laid hands on the sick, and they recovered? the one entrusted with the keys to the kingdom? Listen to what's coming out of his mouth!

"How could this man walk so intimately with the Lord, confessing, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God' - and then blow up like this, lying, cursing and denying Him? It's all over for Peter. He might as well go back to his fishing nets. He'll never be heard of again."

No - never! The eternal purpose of God in Peter's life was not thwarted. True, Peter was terribly unfaithful. But God remained faithful. He could not deny who He is!

Had you run to the Lord, crying, "Didn't You see Peter cursing You?", He would have answered, "Yes, Peter has failed Me. But I know his heart. He's going to be on a hill in a few hours, weeping and crying. He's coming back to Me. In fact, he's on his way to Pentecost - to a life of ministry for Me!" "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:13).

No matter what you've been through this past year, God looks on your heart! If you have a broken and contrite spirit, He will be there for you. His eternal purpose for you will not be thwarted. He will see it through!

This brings me to God's warning:

There Is Only One Thing That Can Cause
the Lord To Turn Aside From You!

Only one thing can abort God's wonderful purpose for you - and that is the sin of stubborn pride! We see this in the life of Saul. Scripture tells us God's Spirit was on this man, from the day Samuel saw him coming down the road. God had called Saul, and He was using him.

But there was something in Saul that emerged quickly - an arrogant pride! Saul would not confess or admit his sin. Instead, he blamed others to justify his actions. He was more concerned with keeping up appearances than with what God thought of him.

Beloved, this was the difference between David and Saul - pride! Think about it: David sinned as grievously as Saul did. After all, Saul never killed another woman's husband.

But David quickly repented of his sin. When Nathan pointed out his grievous act, David didn't justify it. Rather, he immediately cried out, "God, don't take Your Holy Spirit from me! All I want is to please You. I don't want to live for myself. I know I have failed You. But, please, forgive me - cleanse my heart!"

When Saul was caught in sin, however, he grabbed hold of Samuel's skirt and cried, "Don't take my kingdom from me! Please, stand with me. Don't let me look bad in front of my people."

Saul went through the motions. He was more interested in what the people thought about him than in having grieved the Holy Spirit!

Beloved, it is pride - a haughty, unmoveable spirit - which brings men down! But a broken heart, a contrite spirit, captures the heart of the Lord. It doesn't matter what you've been through, or how you've failed the almighty God; if you're like Peter - if you run to weep it all out before Him after you've failed - He will stand with you. He always stands with those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Just before I wrote this message, I prayed, "Lord, make me a voice for You in these last days. I know I can't be a voice for You unless You keep changing me. I can't speak for You until the things of this world mean nothing to me - until I am the image of Jesus Christ. Please, Lord - change me."

Even as I prayed, I felt so inadequate - so far from what God wants of me. I thought, "I don't think I'll ever make it. I'll never be worthy enough."

That's when the Lord gave me this very message! He said, "You're right, David - you'll never be holy enough, by your own standards and works. But right now I'm not looking for you to do some great thing for Me. I want you to know that, even as you're lying here praying, I'm at work being faithful to you, for My eternal purpose. And I'm going to see My purpose through in your life!"

Beloved, the Lord is going to do that for every one of us! He uses the weak, foolish things of the world to accomplish His purposes. We all fail the Lord; no one in His church is perfect. Yet every time we are unfaithful to Him, He remains faithful to us!

So, take your eyes off of your failures and weaknesses, and fix them on His faithfulness. He cannot deny Himself. He is utterly faithful to His Word - and He is going to see you through all your battles! Hallelujah!

David Wilkerson
---
Used with permission granted by World Challenge, P. O. Box 260, Lindale, TX 75771 USA.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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Galatians 3:26 - 27 (NLT)
26 For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on the character of Christ , like putting on new clothes.


Galatians 4:6 - 7 (NLT)
6 And because we are his children , God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, “Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are no longer a slave but God’s own child. And since you are his child, God has made you his heir.


Romans 8:15 - 17 (NLT)
15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.” 16 For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. 17 And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.

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becauseHElives
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quote:
while the servant obeys out of fear.
Mark9:35
And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Luke 12:37
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

Carol, Yahshua was the greatest Servant ever...did Yahshua obey out of fear??????

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Matthew 24: 42-47
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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“The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 5:5).


People keep asking if a "believer" who lives his life in sin can still be saved. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ...no true believer would ever want to live in sin.

I have to ask you now, do you have such a low opinion of the Holy Spirit?

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Carol Swenson
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Galatians 4:6 - 7 (NLT)

6 And because we are his children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, prompting us to call out, “Abba, Father.” 7 Now you are no longer a slave but God’s own child . And since you are his child, God has made you his heir.


The son has the same nature as the father, but the servant does not . When we trust Christ, the Holy Spirit comes to live within us; and this means we are “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). The Law could never give a person God’s nature within. All it could do was reveal to the person his desperate need for God’s nature. So, when the believer goes back into Law, he is denying the very divine nature within, and he is giving the old nature (the flesh) opportunity to go to work.

The son has a father, while the servant has a master. No servant could ever say “Father” to his master. When the sinner trusts Christ, he receives the Holy Spirit within, and the Spirit tells him that he is a child of the Father (Rom. 8:15-16). It is natural for a baby to cry, but not for a baby to talk to his father. When the Spirit enters the heart, He says, “Abba, Father” (Gal. 4:6); and, in response, the believer cries, “Abba, Father!” (Rom. 8:15) The word Abba is an Aramaic word that is the equivalent of our English word “papa.” This shows the closeness of the child to the Father. No servant has this.

The son obeys out of love, while the servant obeys out of fear. The Spirit works in the heart of the believer to quicken and increase his love for God. “The fruit of the Spirit is love” (Gal. 5:22). “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy [Spirit]” (Rom. 5:5). The Judaizers told the Galatians that they would become better Christians by submitting to the Law, but the Law can never produce obedience. Only love can do that. “If ye love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

The son is rich, while the servant is poor. We are both “sons and heirs.” And since we are adopted—placed as adult sons in the family—we may begin drawing on our inheritance right now. God has made available to us the riches of His grace (Eph. 1:7; 2:7), the riches of His glory (Phil. 4:19), the riches of His goodness (Rom. 2:4), and the riches of His wisdom (Rom. 11:33)—and all of the riches of God are found in Christ (Col. 1:19; 2:3).

The son has a future, while the servant does not. While many kind masters did provide for their slaves in old age, it was not required of them. The father always provides for the son (2 Cor. 12:14).


(Warren Wiersbe’s “Be” Series: Old & New Testaments)

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Eden
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Hi, Carol Swenson, you said
quote:
OSAS does not teach that it's okay to live in sin. We teach Love and Obedience, and Divine Discipline.
Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Jeremiah 7
5 For if you thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if you thoroughly execute {just} judgment between a man and his neighbor;

6 If you do not oppress the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in places, neither walk after other gods to your hurt,

7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, forever and ever.

9 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense to Baal, or walk after other gods whom you do not know?

10 And then you come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations.

Jeremiah 25
5 They said, Turn again now everyone from his evil way and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD has given you and to your fathers forever and ever:

6 And do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands; and then I will do you no hurt.

But you who believe in OSAS, at what point do you declare someone to have reached the stage in believing that they can now be declared to be OSAS, "once saved, always saved".

If OSAS teaches that we ought not to live in sin but in love and obedience, yes, but is a person who first believes automatically able to love and live in obedience?

So at what point does OSAS "deem a person fit for OSAS"? or a person has "reached the level of OSAS"?

The moment when a person first believes?

Or does the person have to go through a "trial" period before they can be declared to be "fully OSAS now"?

And who does the declaring? If God only can declare someone OSAS, how can you in the church know when a person is "now OSAS"?

And how does the church ascertain if "a person believes sufficiently or not" before we the person can declare to be "fully OSAS"?

Jeremiah 25
7 Yet you have not listened to Me, says the LORD; so that you might provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands, to your own hurt.

Isn't the matter greatly simplified, both for us and for God too, when we simply wait until a person DIES and then we see if that person believed in Jesus, or not?

If he died believing in Jesus, his sins are covered and he is saved. If he did not die believing in Jesus, his sins are not covered and he must still die for his own sins at the judgment seat.

But if the OSAS determining point is instead put sometime DURING someone's life, as OSAS proponents do, then that raises all sorts of awful issues like, "has that person believed enough to qualify for OSAS, or has he not?"

And what about the person who believed for 5 years that Jesus died for their sins but then he went to and came out of University believing in Darwin instead and that person never again believes that Jesus died for their sins.

How can that person possibly still be OSAS, as he is in your formula? What, just because he believed for 5 years?

with love, eden

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Acts 4:36-37(NLT)

For instance, there was Joseph, the one the apostles nicknamed Barnabas (which means “Son of Encouragement”). He was from the tribe of Levi and came from the island of Cyprus. He sold a field he owned and brought the money to the apostles for those in need.


Barnabas (Joseph) is introduced here because he gave money from the sale of a field he owned to the apostles to give to those in need. Barnabas would prove to be a respected and important leader in the life of the early church. Barnabas would later travel with Paul on Paul’s first missionary journey (13:4). John Mark (author of the Gospel of Mark) was his cousin. “Barnabas” means Son of Encouragement , and it would prove, over and over, to be most appropriate.


Look at Peter, Barnabas, Stephen, and others who were willing to give all, even their lives, for the Lord. Then look at what Ananias and Sapphira did.

Ananias and Sapphira were jealous of Barnabas. The proper response to a “Barnabas deed” is not to become jealous but to follow the example. We must not become envious; instead, we should rejoice with them and be motivated to continue in our own task of growing into Christ’s likeness.

Ananias and Sapphira had likely been at the worship service when Barnabas had laid his gift at the apostle’s feet—a great gift, a great moment. The “wow” of the crowd, who probably knew what the gift was worth and what level of sacrifice it was, had followed. The “buzz” probably followed on the streets, in their small group meetings: “Can you believe Barnabas gave all that away? What a man of God!” Ananias and Sapphira wanted the same reputation, and they lied in order to get it.

Upon witnessing the holy wrath of God on sinning people, the church (as well as those outside the church) was gripped with great fear! We must be careful, in an age of marketing the church and trying to make the gospel user-friendly, that we do not skim over this truth: God is to be feared! It is true that he is a God rich in love and abounding in mercy. But it is also true that he hates and judges sin.

(Life Application Bible Commentary: Acts)


OSAS does not teach that it's okay to live in sin. We teach Love and Obedience, and Divine Discipline.

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ANM
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I'd really like to know how there can be a such thing as an "unfaithful believer" if a believer's life is to be marked by a committment to the Lordship of Jesus. Don't get me wrong...... I do believe that we can be(and certainly are) unfaithful in different areas of our lives at different times, but if our lives are marked by unfaithfullness in a general sense, I think that we may need to question whether or not we have a faith in the Lord that is genuine and sincere.

Is'nt the devil an unfaithful believer?

With love in Christ, Daniel

When we are unfaithful, he remains faithful....next.
[rapture]

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whats up?

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oneinchrist
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I'd really like to know how there can be a such thing as an "unfaithful believer" if a believer's life is to be marked by a committment to the Lordship of Jesus. Don't get me wrong...... I do believe that we can be(and certainly are) unfaithful in different areas of our lives at different times, but if our lives are marked by unfaithfullness in a general sense, I think that we may need to question whether or not we have a faith in the Lord that is genuine and sincere.

Is'nt the devil an unfaithful believer?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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Acts 5:9

And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this—conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too.” (NLT)


To test God is to see how much one can get away with before God will respond or act according to his Word (see Exodus 17:2; Deuteronomy 6:16; Matthew 4:7; Luke 4:12 for further passages on testing God). The entire direction of this lie by Ananias and Sapphira was wrongheaded, self-serving, church-destroying, and, to put it simply, sinful.

This is reminiscent of God’s words to Samuel regarding outward appearances: “The Lord doesn’t make decisions the way you do! People judge by outward appearance, but the Lord looks at a person’s thoughts and intentions” (1 Samuel 16:7 NLT). Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for a similar sin: “You like to look good in public, but God knows your evil hearts. What this world honors is an abomination in the sight of God” (Luke 16:15 NLT). Winning the approval of God, not people, should be the motivation for our actions.

Ananias and Sapphira had conspired together to mock God , to lie and think they could get away with it as if God would not know. They had tried to test the Spirit of the Lord, referring to the Holy Spirit in the body of believers—specifically the apostles before whom this lie was told (John 16:8).


(Life Application Bible Commentary: Acts)

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Carol Swenson
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Jesus was able to cast out demons because He had first defeated Satan, the prince of the demons. His victory was through the Spirit of God (“the finger of God,” Luke 11:20) and not in the power of the evil one. This means that God is Victor over Satan, and that men must decide on whose side they will stand. There can be no compromise. We are either with God or against God.


The admonition (Matthew 12 vv. 31-37).

Jesus warned them that their words gave evidence of the evil in their hearts. The sin against the Holy Spirit is not a matter of speech; the words spoken are only “fruit” from the sinful heart. If the heart is a treasury of good, that good will overflow through the lips and do good to others. But if the heart is a treasury of evil, that evil will spill over through the lips and do harm to the person speaking and those listening.

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Eden
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Carol Swenson, What does the pix mean in your opinion? Thanks, eden
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Carol; These are the very rationalizations that grieve the Spirit, in that the way that they justify the notion of osas, is oversimplified. That the term evil can be applied to Judas is quit obvious to all who bother to read the biblical account - even sinners. However, evil, as addressed by scripture in the blueprint of our relationship, applies to the servant of the Lord just as readily as it does to the unsaved. But most Christians stop there! They see only the contrast illustrated between the believers, and the non-believers, which the illustration of Judas serves to accentuate well. But the comparison between good and evil applies all over again to the believer, to illustrate whether one is in the light, or in darkness, AS A BELIEVER (strange as that may seem). One is not in the light (all the way) just because they got saved. Granted, by comparison to where they were before they got saved, they are, because they see Jesus, and what He means to them, whereas they didn't before. But in comparison to where they are supposed to be in relationship to Him in the now, the passages on evil distinguish between Christians and Christians, rather than between Christians and unbelievers.

The differences between Christians and unbelievers belongs to fundamental preaching. Here is the significance of the epistles. Here is where we see if one wants to go on with God, or settle for the bare minimum. Here is where we see if one desires to be Holy, or just saved. Here is where scripture, as the Sword of the Spirit, applies to the heart to distinguish between relationships of believers, to their maker. When Paul talks about relationship, he is not comparing believers with non believers, but believers with believers. This is fundamentally, and undeniably important!

Let’s go back to the words of Christ about the man who is angry with his brother. What you posted is a typical rationalization. It is as basic to be read, as it is written. If a man says to his brother “Thou fool,” HE IS IN DANGER OF HELL FIRE. It matters not the reason. It is not occasion for a dissertation on anger, because it is the state or condition of the heart of the believer, regardless of the reason, which matters here! (And the passage on making peace with the adversary before he delivers thee to the judge illustrates our relationship with Jesus.) The believer’s condition is indicated here to be evil. To that end we can also see illustrated by what Jesus said, that there are consequences for evil. It matters not whether the one is saved or unsaved. (So see! You did say that it is ‘hypothetical’ ) There is an evil for which there are dire consequences. You have just seen one illustrated but refuse to understand it.

There is a fairy tale gospel which people buy into.! Osas fits this description. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. There are consequences even for the believer, while in this world. Someone believing the fairy tale version will not be equipped when he or she arrives home should they underestimate the consequences of certain behavior.

~

Quote
Jesus said that those who slander the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven because they will never ask for forgiveness.

This rationalization goes too far. One should take a look at what happened to Ananias and Shapira when they intentionally ’deceived’, or tried to deceive, the Holy Spirit. Suppose ye that they simply lost their lives, and still went to heaven? That would be osas. However, the osas will no doubt say that these were as Judas was, which I believe to be unsaved. So in their estimation Ananias and Shapira weren’t saved when they lied to the Holy Spirit. I feel however, though it cannot be ‘proven’, that they died and LOST, their salvation.

And what a comment! They will not be forgiven because they will never ask for forgiveness? Truly! They will not ask for forgiveness because they have been locked out, turned away! They cannot ask. They will not ask because they committed the unpardonable sin and are spiritually dead inside.

~

According to osas, satan didn’t lose his salvation. His condition is only temporary.
In fact, there was a program recently on 60 Minutes, which detailed the demise of a once prosperous preacher who forfeited his flock, and all the rest, because of his apostasy. He “Came to the revelation,” that no one really goes to hell and suffers forever. Needless to say, even his flock knew better than that. So he should’ve listened to him. So this is a mystery: Was this guy saved in the first place? I would venture that he was not. However, how did he raise up a church of believers as he did if he was not?

He ended up being invited to a gay congregation in SanFransisco, where he got to start preaching again. Well, Jesus said, “Let the dead bury the dead.” So then, I guess it is not wrong for the dead to preach to the dead.


C

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Aaron
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An interesting point about Judas.

I think he never received the seal of the Holy Spirit nor the indwelling of Him.

Also, is there explicit record of Judas ever being the vessel through whom The Father completed a miracle?

Aaron

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Carol Swenson
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Jesus said that those who slander the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. This is because they will never ask for forgiveness. Whoever rejects the prompting of the Holy Spirit removes himself or herself from the only force that can lead anyone to repentance and restoration with God.
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Carol Swenson
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Luke 12: 41-48

Lest we get the idea that watching and waiting are all that He requires, Jesus added this parable to encourage us to be working when He comes. The Apostles had a special responsibility to feed God’s household, His church; but each of us has some work to do in this world, assigned to us by the Lord. Our responsibility is to be faithful when He comes. We may not appear successful in our own eyes, or in the eyes of others; but that is not important. The thing God wants is faithfulness (1 Cor. 4:2) .

Once a believer starts to think his Master is not coming back, his life begins to deteriorate. Our relationship with others depends on our relationship to the Lord; so if we stop looking for Him, we will stop loving His people. The motive for Christian life and service must be a desire to please the Lord and be found faithful at His return.

I do not think that Luke 12:46 teaches that unfaithful believers lose their salvation, because our going to heaven depends on faith in Jesus Christ and not good works (Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Tim. 2:11-13). The phrase “cut him in sunder” means “cut him off, separate him”; and “unbelievers” can also be translated “unfaithful.” Our Lord will separate the faithful believers from the unfaithful; He will reward the faithful, but the unfaithful servants will lose their rewards (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

God’s judgment will be fair. It will be based on what the servants know of God’s will. This is not to suggest that the more ignorant we are, the easier time we will have at the Judgment Seat of Christ! We are admonished to know God’s will (Rom. 12:2; Col. 1:9) and to grow in our knowledge of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:18). Jesus is stating a general principle: the more we have from God, the greater our accountability before God.


(Warren Wiersbe’s “Be” Series: Old & New Testaments)

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WildB
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"WildB... then by your own logic, if I am sealed and saved there is no possible way by what I say or do I can lose my Salvation....

you are saying a saved person can not blaspheme the Holy Ghost."


A} That is what the Word reads. You can sin unto your own death as I have pointed out time and time again.

B) Only a Pharise can be in the position to blaspheme the Holy Ghost. Are you a modern day Pharise?

Please reread pryerfully ,

"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your promoting this new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which can cause manny of the little ones to fall.

For it is indeed the the Holy Spirit that Seals untill the DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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WildB... then by your own logic, if I am sealed and saved there is no possible way by what I say or do I can lose my Salvation....

you are saying a saved person can not blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

Carol and all other OSAS teachers....

please read and comment.... Luke 12:48,

"And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

The main idea here is that we are accountable for the knowledge, resources, abilities, etc. that God has blessed us with. If we have been given much, then He expects that much more from us. The good news is that all of these blessings come from the Lord and He realizes that humans are not perfect and that we can't do anything right without His help (John 15:5), but we can do all things through Jesus Christ as He strengthens us (Philippians 4:13). So let's ask the Lord to give us His wisdom and Spirit so that we can be faithful stewards over what He has entrusted to us. "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."
(1 John 2:28)

is the servant in Luke 12:48 the Lord's servant or not

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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Michael


quote:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Mat 5:22)

Here, Jesus clearly states that the man who calls his 'brother' a fool is in danger of hell fire! That's as serious as it gets when describing the possibility that one can lose their salvation. And for that matter, all the man did is say something negative about someone else who is saved, i.e. his brother no less. Wooooh.

There is a holy anger against sin (Eph. 4:26), but Jesus talked about an unholy anger against people. The word He used in Matthew 5:22 means “a settled anger, malice that is nursed inwardly.” Jesus described a sinful experience that involved several stages. First there was causeless anger. This anger then exploded into words: “Raca—empty-headed person!” These words added fuel to the fire so that the person said, “You fool!”

Anger is such a foolish thing. It makes us destroyers instead of builders. It robs us of freedom and makes us prisoners. To hate someone is to commit murder in our hearts (1 John 3:15).

Sinful anger must be faced honestly and must be confessed to God as sin. We must go to our brother and get the matter settled, and we must do it quickly. The longer we wait, the worse the bondage becomes! We put ourselves into a terrible prison when we refuse to be reconciled. It has well been said that the person who refuses to forgive his brother destroys the very bridge over which he himself must walk.

Nowhere did the Law teach hatred for one’s enemies. Passages like Exodus 23:4-5 indicate just the opposite! Jesus defined our enemies as those who curse us, hate us, and exploit us selfishly. Since Christian love is an act of the will, and not simply an emotion, He has the right to command us to love our enemies. After all, He loved us when we were His enemies (Rom. 5:10). We may show this love by blessing those who curse us, doing good to them, and praying for them. When we pray for our enemies, we find it easier to love them. It takes the “poison” out of our attitudes.

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Carol Swenson
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Judas is a tragic figure . He was called to be one of Christ’s disciples and was named an apostle along with the others (Mark 3:13-19). He received power to heal (Matt. 10:1-4), and he probably used this power. It is not the power to do miracles that is proof of salvation (Matt. 7:21-29), but obedience to God’s Word.

In spite of his affiliation with the band of disciples, and his association with Christ, Judas was not a true believer.


John 6:63 - 64 (NLT) 63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)


John 6:70 - 71 (NLT) 70Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil.” 71He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him.


John 13:10 - 11 (NLT) 10 Jesus replied, “A person who has bathed all over does not need to wash, except for the feet, to be entirely clean. And you disciples are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For Jesus knew who would betray him. That is what he meant when he said, “Not all of you are clean.”

John 13:18 (NLT) 18 “I am not saying these things to all of you; I know the ones I have chosen. But this fulfills the Scripture that says, ‘The one who eats my food has turned against me.’

John 17:12 (NLT) 12 During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction , as the Scriptures foretold.


Hypocrisy: Jesus and Judas

A dark shadow now fell across the scene as Jesus dealt with Judas, the traitor. It is important to note that Judas was not a true believer; he was a hypocrite. He had never believed in Jesus (John 6:64-71), he had not been bathed all over (John 13:10-11), and he had not been among the chosen ones whom the Father gave to the Son (John 13:18 and 17:12). How close a person can come to salvation and yet be lost forever! Judas was even the treasurer of the group (John 12:6) and was certainly held in high regard by his fellow disciples.

At that hour, Jesus had two great concerns: to fulfill the Word of God (John 13:18-30) and to magnify the glory of God (John 13:31-35).

The Scripture Jesus quoted was Psalm 41:9—“Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” When David wrote the psalm, he was probably referring to his counselor Ahithophel, who turned traitor and joined Absalom’s rebellion (see 2 Sam. 15-17). It is significant that both Judas and Ahithophel committed suicide by hanging themselves (2 Sam. 17:23; Matt. 27:3-10; Acts 1:18). However, Judas did not commit suicide in order to fulfill biblical prophecy, for that would make God the author of his sin. Judas was responsible for his own decisions, and those decisions fulfilled God’s Word.

Jesus was concerned that Judas’ treachery would not weaken His disciples’ faith. This is why He related it to the Word of God: when the disciples saw all of this fulfilled, it would make their faith stronger (see John 8:28). Judas had been disloyal, but He expected them to be loyal to Him and His cause. After all, He was God the Son sent by God the Father. They were Christ’s chosen representatives; to receive them would be the same as receiving the Father and the Son. What a privilege, to be ambassadors of the King!

The remarkable thing is that the others at the table with Jesus did not know that Judas was an unbeliever and a traitor. Up to the very hour of his treachery, Judas was protected by the Saviour whom he betrayed. Had Jesus openly revealed what He knew about Judas, it is likely that the men would have turned on him. Remember what Peter did to Malchus when soldiers came to take Jesus!

From the very beginning, Jesus knew what Judas would do (John 6:64), but He did not compel him to do it. Judas was exposed to the same spiritual privileges as the other disciples, yet they did him no good. The same sun that melts the ice only hardens the clay. In spite of all that our Lord said about money, and all of His warning about covetousness, Judas continued to be a thief and steal from the treasury. In spite of all our Lord’s warning about unbelief, Judas persisted in his rejection. Jesus even washed Judas’ feet! Yet his hard heart did not yield.

Jesus had spoken before about a traitor (John 6:70), but the disciples did not take it to heart. Now when He spoke openly about it at the table, His disciples were perplexed.

Peter signaled to John, who was the closest to Jesus at the table, and asked him to find out who the traitor was. The Lord’s reply to John was certainly not heard by all the men; in fact, they were carrying on discussions among themselves about who the traitor might be (Luke 22:23). When Jesus gave the bread to Judas, it was interpreted as an act of love and honor. In fact, Judas was seated at the place of honor, so our Lord’s actions were seen in that light: He was bestowing a special honor on Judas. No wonder, after Judas left the room, the disciples got into an argument over who was the greatest (Luke 22:24-30).

John was no doubt stunned by this revelation, but before he could say or do anything, Jesus had sent Judas on his way. Even though Satan had entered Judas, it was Jesus who was in charge. He lived on the timetable given to Him by the Father, and He wanted to fulfill what was written in the Word. Since Judas was the treasurer, it was logical for the disciples to conclude that he had been sent on a special mission by the Lord. Judas had hypocritically expressed an interest in the poor (John 12:4-6), so perhaps he was on an errand of mercy to help the poor.

Keep in mind that Judas knew what he was doing and that he did it deliberately . He had already met with the Jewish religious leaders and agreed to lead them to Jesus in such a way that there would not be any public disturbance (Luke 21:37-22:6). He heard Jesus say, “Woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born!” (Matt. 26:24) Yet, he persisted in his unbelief and treachery.

John’s little phrase “and it was night” carries a tremendous impact when you remember that light and darkness are important spiritual images in his Gospel. Jesus is the Light of the world (John 8:12), but Judas rejected Jesus and went out into darkness; and for Judas, it is still night! Those who do evil hate the light (John 3:18-21). Our Lord’s warning in John 12:25-26 went unheeded by Judas—and it goes unheeded by lost sinners today, people who will go where Judas went unless they repent and trust the Saviour.

The instant Judas was gone, the atmosphere was cleared, and Jesus began to instruct His disciples and prepare them for His crucifixion and His ultimate return to heaven. It was after Judas’ departure that He instituted the Lord’s Supper, something that Judas as an unbeliever certainly could not share. Judas was out in the night, controlled by the prince of darkness, Satan; but Jesus was in the light, sharing love and truth with His beloved disciples. What a contrast!

Judas’ kiss was certainly one of the basest acts of treachery recorded anywhere in sacred or secular history. In that day, a kiss was a sign of affection and devotion. Members of the family kissed each other in meeting and in parting, but Judas was not a member of God’s family. Disciples greeted a rabbi by kissing him; it was a sign of devotion and obedience. But Judas was not truly a disciple of Jesus Christ, though he belonged to the disciple band. In the Garden, Judas stood with the enemy, not with Jesus’ friends!

When people today pretend to know and love the Lord, they are committing the sin of Judas. It is bad enough to betray Christ, but to do it with a kiss, a sign of affection, is the basest treachery of all. It was born in the pit of hell.

It is worthwhile to contrast Peter and Judas. Peter wept over his sins and repented, while Judas admitted his sins but never really repented. Judas experienced remorse, not repentance. When Judas went out from the Upper Room, “it was night” (John 13:30); but when Peter went out to weep bitterly, there was the dawning of a new day. It is the contrast between godly sorrow that leads to true repentance, and the sorrow of the world (regret and remorse) that leads to death (2 Cor. 7:9-10).

Judas’ response was one of remorse and regret. The Greek word translated “repented himself” in Matthew 27:3 indicates, not a sorrow for sin that leads to a change of mind and action, but a regret at being caught, a remorse that leads to despair. Peter truly repented, and Jesus restored him. But Judas did not repent, and this led him to suicide.


(Warren Wiersbe’s “Be” Series: Old & New Testaments)

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Eden
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So what about Judas Iscariot. Someone here recently said something like, "Judas was never a Christian".

But how could Judas Iscariot not have been a Christian?

The Lord chose Judas as one of His 12 disciples, and then the Lord sent all 12 disciples, including Judas, into the mission field to preach Jesus:

Matthew 10
1 And when He {Jesus} had called to Him his 12 disciples, He gave them power to cast out unclean spirits and to heal all manner of sickness and disease.

2 Now the names of the 12 apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

In the above verse, Judas Iscariot was given Christian power over evil spirits and power to heal diseases, and what Judas had the other 11 believing disciples of Jesus had. Were not all Christians at that point?

Then Jesus sent the 12 disciples ahead of Him to the villages, to prepare the way of the Lord, and which at that time still included Judas Iscariot:

Matthew 10
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These 12 Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans do not enter:

6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 And heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely you have received, freely give.

Luke 9
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing everywhere.

Now, Judas Iscariot preached the gospel right alongside the other 11 apostles. Today we would call someone like Judas Iscariot "a bornagain Christian evangelist", would we not?

Judas went and preached the gospel and was given power over unclean spirits and to heal all manner of disease. We would call such a person a Christian, would we not?

Yet, Judas Iscariot, during his lifetime, left his first love:

Revelation 2:4
Nevertheless, I have something against you, because you have left your first love.

After preaching the gospel, Judas Iscariot slid back into unbelief and he was no longer saved.

So OSAS proponents, was...Judas Iscariot ever a Christian in your opinion, or not, and if not, how can someone who preaches the gospel and heals the sick, after being given this gift by Jesus Himself, NOT be a Christian?

Isn't the truth that Judas Iscariot "WAS a Christian" but he is "fallen from grace into unbelief" after Judas "DECIDED to betray Him"?

Judas WAS once saved but then he lost it.

Matthew 27:3
Then Judas who had betrayed Him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders.

So, OSAS_proponents, was Judas a bornagain Christian evangelist long enough to be saved, or not?

there's still love in the family of God,
eden

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We should not have confidence in ourselves, because we are too prone to fail; but we should have confidence in Jesus Christ who never fails.

Because of this confidence in Christ and this confession of Christ, we can experience joy and hope (Heb. 3:6). The writer exhorted these suffering saints to enjoy their spiritual experience and not simply endure it. Jesus Christ is the beloved Son over His house, and He will care for each member of the family. He is the faithful High Priest who provides all the grace we need for each demand of life . As the Great Shepherd of the sheep (Heb. 13:19-20), Jesus Christ is using the experiences in His people’s lives to equip them for service that will glorify His name.

In other words, those who have trusted Christ prove this confession by their steadfastness, confidence, and joyful hope. They are not burdened by the past or threatened by the present, but are “living in the future tense” as they await the “blessed hope” of their Lord’s return.

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Carol Swenson
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becauseHElives

I said
quote:
Rather, the writer is affirming that those who hold fast their confidence and hope are proving that they are truly born again.

You said
quote:
They all died in the wilderness because of unbelief.
So, we are in agreement.

Belief = Life
Unbelief = Death


quote:
but the promise land does not represent "Eternal Life" anyway... their will be no Giants to face in eternity when we put off this house of clay.
No? You'll be there...
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Michael Harrison
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Didn't mean to ignore you ANM. Where do you stand (or are you sitting this one out?). What will you be?
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WildB
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"Once Sealed Always Sealed”until the day of redemption is not a damnable doctrine of the devil.

And those that accurse the work of the Holy Spirits part are nigh unto commiting the great sin.

Read prayerfully,

Eph.4
[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


and

Matt.12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



So if you are saying the sealing power of the Holy Spirit untill the day of redemtion is a doctrine of the devil are you not in fact doing the same thing that the Pharisees did in regaurds to the operation of the Holy Spirit in their day?

You don't understand it so you think to speak your long winded words against it but in reality your new age blasphemy against the Holy Ghost can cause the little ones to fall.

Matt.18
[6] But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


--------------------
That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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Quote by someone:
the "Once Saved Always Saved" crowd teach that if you have been saved and go back into the world and never repent and die... they will still have eternal life.
Unquote!

Quote Carol:
This is not true . You will need to show us where any of us ever said that. We have always taught Love and Obedience, and Divine Discipline.
Unquote:

Some have said so said! As I recall Carol, the osas group feel that the one that this happens to was never saved in the first place. Therefore their argument stands, given this rationalization, that once one is saved, they cannot be unsaved.

You guys! [Roll Eyes]

~

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Mat 5:22)

Here, Jesus clearly states that the man who calls his 'brother' a fool is in danger of hell fire! That's as serious as it gets when describing the possibility that one can lose their salvation. And for that matter, all the man did is say something negative about someone else who is saved, i.e. his brother no less. Wooooh.

Osas group will no doubt say that this is only a hypothetical. [Eek!]

So many don't have to worry about it, thankfully. They have the fear of God to persevere and wouldn't consider 'testing' God. And their faith in this regard might stand for them. It doesn't work for everybody though. Someare weak in the faith.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Whether one loses his salavation, or only his reward, there is an enemy at work trying to devour with temptation, or deceive with conceptual overtones that distract from the one who is supposed to have our attention every given moment. You know who!!! Were you distracted?

Look to Him.

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becauseHElives
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Carol...
quote:
The “if” clause (Heb. 3:6) needs to be understood in the light of the total context , which is Moses leading Israel out of Egypt and to the Promised Land. The writer is not suggesting that we, as Christians, must keep ourselves saved. This would contradict the major theme of the book, which is the finished work of Christ and His heavenly ministry guaranteeing our eternal salvation (Heb. 7:14).

Rather, the writer is affirming that those who hold fast their confidence and hope are proving that they are truly born again.

Carol do you forget what happen to all those Hebrews you speak of....

They all died in the wilderness because of unbelief.

not one of those Hebrews that put blood on the door post except Joshua and Caleb entered the promise land...they all died in the desert

but the promise land does not represent "Eternal Life" anyway... their will be no Giants to face in
eternity when we put off this house of clay.


quote:
great statement Michael....

I believe that if one is still hoping, he will in fact be saved in spite of himself. The unfortunate reality however, is that when sin hardens, even the heart that was once soft, can turn against HIM, refuse to be with HIM. So it is entirely dangerous to be complacent about this.



--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Kindgo
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A simple faith brings the soul to Christ, Christ keeps the faith alive; that faith enables the believer to persevere, and so he enters heaven.

May that be your lot and mine for Christ's sake.

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.
Amen.

Again..
A simple faith brings the soul to Christ, Christ keeps the faith alive; that faith enables the believer to persevere, and so he enters heaven. May that be your lot and mine for Christ's sake.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Carol, I have repeatedly said and have others that hold the same view as I, if salvation is lost there is no restoration.
Eden said: Dear Kindgo, I'm so sorry to hear that you have lost your salvation. I will pray for you that you will again come to see that Jesus died for your sins so that you do not have to die for your sins.

Michael said: Osas may be true! But osas doesn't work without repentance.


quote:
the "Once Saved Always Saved" crowd teach that if you have been saved and go back into the world and never repent and die... they will still have eternal life.
This is not true . You will need to show us where any of us ever said that. We have always taught Love and Obedience, and Divine Discipline.

Kindgo said: God is a holy and righteous Father and that, since He cannot overlook the sin of His children, He will, when they persistently sin, chasten them and correct them in infinite love; but having undertaken to save them and keep them forever, apart from all human merit, He, who cannot fail, will in the end present every one of them faultless before the presence of His glory and conformed to the image of His Son.

I said: The key word is abide; it is used eleven times in John 15:1-11 (“continue” in John 15:9 and “remain” in John 15:11). What does it mean to “abide”? It means to keep in fellowship with Christ so that His life can work in and through us to produce fruit. This certainly involves the Word of God and the confession of sin so that nothing hinders our communion with Him (John 15:3). It also involves obeying Him because we love Him (John 15:9-10).

WildB said: Eph.4[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

WildB also posted LIBERTY IS NOT LICENSE


quote:
and Carol, Kindgo and WildB you still have not addressed "Enduring till the End"....
Yes we have. Here is some of it again...the rest is posted above and in other threads.

Hebrews 3:6 (NLT)

6 But Christ, as the Son, is in charge of God’s entire house. And we are God’s house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in Christ.

The “if” clause (Heb. 3:6) needs to be understood in the light of the total context , which is Moses leading Israel out of Egypt and to the Promised Land. The writer is not suggesting that we, as Christians, must keep ourselves saved. This would contradict the major theme of the book, which is the finished work of Christ and
His heavenly ministry guaranteeing our eternal salvation (Heb. 7:14). Rather, the writer is affirming that those who hold fast their confidence and hope are proving that they are truly born again.

I have shown only a few examples here of what we have posted. You are misrepresenting what we teach.

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Michael Harrison
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Osas may be true! But osas doesn't work without repentance. [Cool] [pound]
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
to tell someone new in the Faith or even someone older in the Faith...no matter have they live if they believe in Yahshua they will still have eternal life....
What becausehelives said! Some, having itching ears, will go this route. Some, being overcome with temptation, will go this route to live as they wish, and be lost. Strangely, I believe that if one is still hoping, he will in fact be saved in spite of himself. The unfortunate reality however, is that when sin hardens, even the heart that was once soft, can turn against HIM, refuse to be with HIM. So it is entirely dangerous to be complacent about this.

That is all!

For the simplest definition of sin is = unbelief. God cannot help this unless one reaches out. All sin comes from unbelief. Literally! If you don't believe that He is saving you, you condemn yourself. For what saith scripture?

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So it is always present tense. It is and will ever be NOW. He, vs. 20, that 'doeth' evil NOW, hateth the light. That would be unbelief. That would be separation. That would be 'lost' if one dies in that condidion. That would be failing to trust, so that one would not be 'abiding' in Him!

quote:
he writer did not say that these people could never be brought to repentance. He said that they could not be brought to repentance while they were treating Jesus Christ in such a shameful way. Once they stop disgracing Jesus Christ in this way, they can be brought to repentance and renew their fellowship with God.
This I will concede! They can repent. What Paul is saying seems to be that they cannot be forced. Their free will is active and the Holy Spirit will not force them. God's will will not trump your will. All of scripture teaches us that He is this way. It is the very reason we are given the option to 'repent'. Nothing happens from on high unless we do repent. So the perpetual state of repentance is essential. And if osas is true, then repentance is totally void. It isn't needed. And it never applies.

He is able to 'save to the uttermost' those who come to Him - with their participation! Granted, He is greater than our will, but this is what gives us our dignity, our will, in that He gives us choice. HE didn't create zombies. He doesn't call zombies. He calls those who fear His name (in a healthy and respectful way, to their own good). HE does not disrespect us. He gives us choice!


So are you telling me that a person can once sincerely believe in their life, "they received the word with joy", but then the cares and riches of this life, they no longer needed God and they were now "doing just fine by myself, thank you".

Yes! I believe that even the blessedness of God poured out on someone can be discounted by some, and they will shrink back into darkness. That is scariest of all.

So!

Rom 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

For those who believe in osas, that would be towards us who do not. [Wink] For those of us who do not believe in osas, that would be towards those who are compromisers, who are weak, or those who will, or perhaps have slipped back into darkness. It would be towards those who could be lost because they were once alive and vibrant, but who are now experiencing a love for the world, which entails disregard for His will, which is the fruit of 'unbelief', which separates, which is no where to be - ever!!!

Many are weak in the faith! These need something besides osas in order to survive. What will they say when they face Him, and they give osas as the reason why they should enter into His joy? Osas doesn't save, Jesus does! Tell a young Christian the doctrine of osas and see what happens to Him. Will he feel the need to seek? Will he perservere? Will he submit? No! He might not. He might just shrug and say, "Good!" I'll just head on over to the rock concert now and look for some free love. What will you be guilty of? Nothing? What is a single soul worth? But if he or she is always saved, you have nothing to worry about right?

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becauseHElives
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quote:
Those who teach that we can lose our salvation also teach that such a person can be restored.
Carol, I have repeatedly said and have others that hold the same view as I, if salvation is lost there is no restoration.

In the end we will all be held accountable for ever word we speak....and maybe cause a little one to fall.

I take into consideration all scripture and how it may effect the outcome of another souls place in eternity.

I think it is very hard to lose "Salvation"...

Yahweh's goodness and long suffering that none should perish is mind boggling but...

to tell someone new in the Faith or even someone older in the Faith...no matter have they live if they believe in Yahshua they will still have eternal life....

this is damnable

I would agree many such were never saved at all but that is not what is being taught to people....

the "Once Saved Always Saved" crowd teach that if you have been saved and go back into the world and never repent and die... they will still have eternal life.

That is a lie from the pit of hell and all that teach it will be held responsible for the blood of the souls they have lied to!

and Carol, Kindgo and WildB you still have not addressed "Enduring till the End"....

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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God does not need to wait until the end of our lives. He already knows everything we will ever do, think, and feel. He knew before we were even born.

But we keep teaching Love and Obedience. We have never taught that it's okay to live a sinful life. We do teach that God disciplines those He loves.

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Carol Swenson
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Hebrews 6:7 - 11 (NLT)

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it. 9 Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation. 10 For God is not unjust. He will not forget how hard you have worked for him and how you have shown your love to him by caring for other believers, as you still do. 11 Our great desire is that you will keep on loving others as long as life lasts , in order to make certain that what you hope for will come true.

This progress results in fruitfulness .

This illustration of a field reminds us of our Lord’s Parable of the Sower (Matt. 13:1-9, 18-23), as well as Paul’s teaching about the fire testing our works (1 Cor. 3:6-23). A field proves its worth by bearing fruit; and a true believer, as he makes spiritual progress, bears fruit for God’s glory. Note that the “thorns and briars” are burned, not the field. God never curses His own!

The crop of God’s blessing pictured in Hebrews 6:7 is called “things that accompany salvation” in Hebrews 6:9. Not every believer bears the same amount of fruit (“some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty,” Matt. 13:23); but every believer bears the same kind of fruit as proof that he is a child of God (Matt. 7:15-20). This is the fruit of Christian character and conduct (Gal. 5:22-26) produced by the Spirit as we mature in Christ.

The writer listed some of the fruit that he knew had been produced in their lives (Heb. 6:10): because of their love , they had worked and labored for the Lord; they had ministered to other saints; and they were still ministering (see 1 Thes. 1:3-10; Rev. 2:2). These are some of the “things that accompany salvation.”

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Carol Swenson
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Hebrews 6:4 - 6 (NLT)

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.


This progress does not affect salvation.

These verses, along with the exhortation in Hebrews 10:26-39, have given people cause for worry and concern, mainly because these verses have been misunderstood and misapplied .

Bible students over the years have come up with several approaches to this serious passage.

One view is that the writer is warning us against the sin of apostasy, willfully turning one’s back on Jesus Christ and returning to the old life. According to them, such a person would be lost forever. I have several problems with this interpretation. To begin with, the Greek word apostasia is not used in this passage. The verb for “fall away” (Heb. 6:6) is parapipto , which literally means “to fall alongside.” Second, we always interpret the obscure by the obvious. There are many verses in Scripture that assure the true believer that he can never be lost. In fact, one of the greatest arguments for security is the last section of this chapter! (Heb. 6:13-20; see also John 5:24; 10:26-30; Rom. 8:28-39)

Those who teach that we can lose our salvation also teach that such a person can be restored. But this passage (Heb. 6:4-6) teaches just the opposite! If you omit the intervening clauses, the statement reads: “For it is impossible … to renew them again to repentance.” In other words, if this refers to apostasy, once a saved person turns his back on Christ, he cannot be restored to salvation. He is lost forever.

Others claim that the people addressed were not true believers. They had cooperated with the Holy Spirit up to a point, but were not actually born again. Well, let’s examine the description of these people and see if they possessed true salvation.

They were “enlightened” (Heb. 6:4). The “once” means “enlightened once and for all.” The way this same verb is used in Hebrews 10:32 indicates an experience of true salvation (see 2 Cor. 4:4-6).

They “tasted of the heavenly gift” (Heb. 6:4b), and “tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world [age] to come” (Heb. 6:5). To claim that these people “tasted but did not eat” is to base interpretation on one meaning of an English word. God permitted His Son to “taste death for every man” (Heb. 2:9). Surely Jesus Christ did not simply sample death on the cross! “Taste” carries the idea of “experience.” These Hebrew believers had experienced the gift of salvation, the Word of God, and the power of God. Doesn’t this describe authentic salvation?

They “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit” (Heb. 6:4c). To suggest that they only went along with the Holy Spirit to a certain extent is to ignore the simple meaning of the verb. It means “to become sharers.” These same people were not only “sharers of the Holy Spirit,” but also “sharers of the heavenly calling” (Heb. 3:1) and “sharers of Christ” (Heb. 3:14).

In view of these facts, I have concluded that the people addressed were true believers, not mere professors. Furthermore, how could unsaved people ever disgrace Jesus Christ and put Him to open shame?

A third view is that this sin (whatever it is) could be committed only by Hebrew Christians in the first century, while the temple services were still going on. If so, then why did the writer connect this exhortation with the heavenly priesthood of our Lord and the importance of spiritual maturity? If what he wrote about cannot happen today, what is the motivation behind the exhortation? It all seems futile to me if we limit these verses to first-century Jewish believers.

Then what is the writer trying to say to us? It is probable that he is describing a hypothetical case to prove his point that a true believer cannot lose his salvation. His statement in Hebrews 6:9 seems to support this interpretation: “Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case” (NIV). His argument runs like this:

“Let’s suppose that you do not go on to maturity. Does this mean that you will go back to condemnation, that you will lose your salvation? Impossible! If you could lose your salvation, it would be impossible to get it back again; and this would disgrace Jesus Christ. He would have to be crucified again for you, and this could never happen.”

In Hebrews 6:4, the writer changed the pronouns from “we” and “us” to “those.” This change also suggests that he had a hypothetical case in mind.

However, there is another possible interpretation that does not require a hypothetical case. You should note that the words “crucify” and “put” in Hebrews 6:6 are, in the Greek, present participles: “while they are crucifying … and while they are putting Him to an open shame.” The writer did not say that these people could never be brought to repentance. He said that they could not be brought to repentance while they were treating Jesus Christ in such a shameful way. Once they stop disgracing Jesus Christ in this way, they can be brought to repentance and renew their fellowship with God.


(Warren Wiersbe’s “Be” Series: Old & New Testaments)

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Eden
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Keith wrote
quote:
The one who will not confess their sins to God, will not be forgiven, and thus will not be saved. This applies to all, whether they have already been saved or not. The one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, must also continue to confess their sins to God, and ask His forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ, or they will not be saved.
Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

Luke 12:8
Also I say to you, Whosoever shall confess Me before men, Him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God.

If God determines that a person is automatically saved when that person first believes, then what happens when that person does not confess Jesus before men?

I think that God is a very practical God and it is a lot easier for God to determine who is OSAS ("once saved, always saved") when that person first believes, or when that person dies? It is a lot easier to determine when that person dies, isn't it?

Did he or she die in faith, or not? If they died in faith (about Jesus), they are saved and receive a spiritual body.

If they did not die in faith (about Jesus), they are not saved and do not receive a spiritual body.

By contrast, if I put the determining point to be OSAS ("once saved, always saved") when one first believes, then it raises a host of issues.

What if a person, after being declared OSAS, does not confess his sins?

What if a person, after being declared OSAS, remains a carnal Christian?

What if a person, after being declared OSAS, denies Jesus and now believes in Darwin and "dies believing in Darwin"?

All of that does not matter if you place OSAS at "first time a person beleived" and now "that person cannot lose his salvation beause he believed once upon a time"?

By placing the OSAS point at first believing raises a lot of issues which can ALL be avoided by God by deciding who has faith when they die.

Then only 2 questions need to be answered: (1) Did the person die with faith in Jesus, or (2) did that person die with NO faith in Jesus.

End of story:

Mark 13:13
And you shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but He who shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Please, OSAS proponents, what does the phrase "unto the end" mean here? Does it mean "the end of one's life" or does it mean something else in your opinion?

there's love in the family camp of God,
eden

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And speaking of the family camp of God, here on earth the door of God's family camp also swings both ways. The camp of God has gates. While on earth, people can decide to leave the camp of God and "go back out there".
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Hi, Keith. You wrote
quote:
The one who will not confess their sins to God, will not be forgiven, and thus will not be saved. This applies to all, whether they have already been saved or not. The one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, must also continue to confess their sins to God, and ask His forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ, or they will not be saved.
Here is an Old Testament verse for that:

Proverbs 28:13
He who covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy.

Note that it also adds "and forsakes them", along with "whoso confesses them" as the ones who will receive mercy.

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake, and will not remember your sins.

Dear OSAS proponents. I have mentioned before how Michael Harrison and becauseHElives and I think that God determimes when we can be saved, on whether we have faith when we die, and not when we first believe.

Dear OSAS proponents. Do you know of any scriptures to support the idea that God determines that I am saved for good when I first believe?

And we who think that God decides whether we have faith when we die should also post scriptures to support our position.

I'm curious, Kindgo or WildB or Carol Swenson, if you do not think that the phrase, "to the end" means "to one's death", what please do YOU think the phrase "to the end" means in YOUR version of OSAS?

By the way, I believe in OSAS ("once saved, always saved"), but only when my natural body is very dead and I raised forever in my spiritual body.

But during this lifetime people can, and do, change their minds about wanting to associate with the Living God, just look at Israel, Israel said We will follow the LORD, but later Israel walked away from the LORD. They basically stopped interacting with the LORD.

But likewise, someone who has never believed in Jesus but suddenly believes in Jesus at teh end of his life, that person also dies in faith and is saved.

But the person who was once saved but has walked away from the Living God as "medieval nonsense now that I have been to University", and that person dies no longer believing in Jesus, that person has no faith at death and will not be saved.

That's why I think this phrase is so poignant in this regard:

Luke 18:8
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, shall He find faith on the earth?

OSAS proponents, why do you think that God determines whether a person has faith in Jesus when a person first believes?

So are you telling me that a person can once sincerely believe in their life, "they received the word with joy", but then the cares and riches of this life, they no longer needed God and they were now "doing just fine by myself, thank you".

So in your OSAS view, all it takes the first time of believing, or do they, say, have to believe for a "certain length of time" before "we know that they really believe"?

with love to all who are in the family camp of God,

eden

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Well Ill be a...nevermind, Im in, ladies and gentleman...this my first post.

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whats up?

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Michael Harrison
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Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost


|Were they saved? Scripture says that they were once enlightened. It says that they tasted of the heavenly gift! They were also made 'partakers' of the Holy Spirit. This doesn't happen but through the blood of Jesus Christ, which event to have happened means that they were 'sealed' by the Spirit. Saved!


Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


|What does it mean to 'fall away'? To fall away means that one falls away from something. One does not fall away from somewhere they are not. One does not fall off of a ladder when they are standing on the ground. They do not fail in their profession unless they have reached a point where it became their profession, for whatever length of time. They didn't fail in it if they went another direction rather than the one they prepared for.

|You are saved if you:

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


|If you are hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, you likely will not be open to the truth. You will be a closed book. You will cling to feel good concepts rather than to "Examine youself to see if you are in the faith."

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

|If Jesus is not in you, you have no knowledge of God. That is what reprobate means. So if your concept is not of Jesus in you, then your concept is of innumerable possibilities which sound good to the ear, but do not amount to, or translate into eternal life. For Jesus is that life. "Knowledge of God" means 'knowing' Him. You cannot 'know' Him if He is not in you.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


|Salvation is not something He 'did', and you accepted. Salvation is the life of Jesus who is 'the Way to the Father.' Salvation is what Jesus is doing for you, if He is in you. If He is way out there somewhere unseen, or He is future tense because of something that He did in the past, then your hope is not in Him, but in something He did. This is like buying a ticket for a plane trip to somewhere, but not getting on the plane. The plane did make the trip, but even though you had a ticket, you didn't benefit. It is not the ticket, it is the plane, and you can't, of course, get on the plane without the ticket. So, we know that He provided the ticket by dying on the Cross. But the ticket is of no use if you do not 'receive' the ticket provider, to carry you all the way to the end of this journey.

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Carol Swenson
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The “if” clause (Heb. 3:6) needs to be understood in the light of the total context , which is Moses leading Israel out of Egypt and to the Promised Land. The writer is not suggesting that we, as Christians, must keep ourselves saved. This would contradict the major theme of the book, which is the finished work of Christ and His heavenly ministry guaranteeing our eternal salvation (Heb. 7:14). Rather, the writer is affirming that those who hold fast their confidence and hope are proving that they are truly born again.

The word “confidence” literally means “freedom of speech, openness.” When you are free to speak, then there is no fear and you have confidence. A believer can come with boldness (same word as “confidence”) to the throne of grace (Heb. 4:16) with openness and freedom and not be afraid. We have this boldness because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ (Heb. 10:19). Therefore, we should not cast away our confidence, no matter what the circumstances might be. We should not have confidence in ourselves, because we are too prone to fail; but we should have confidence in Jesus Christ who never fails.

Because of this confidence in Christ and this confession of Christ, we can experience joy and hope (Heb. 3:6). The writer exhorted these suffering saints to enjoy their spiritual experience and not simply endure it. Jesus Christ is the beloved Son over His house, and He will care for each member of the family. He is the faithful High Priest who provides all the grace we need for each demand of life . As the Great Shepherd of the sheep (Heb. 13:19-20), Jesus Christ is using the experiences in His people’s lives to equip them for service that will glorify His name.

In other words, those who have trusted Christ prove this confession by their steadfastness, confidence, and joyful hope. They are not burdened by the past or threatened by the present, but are “living in the future tense” as they await the “blessed hope” of their Lord’s return. It is this “heavenly calling” that motivates the believers to keep on living for the Saviour even when the going is tough.

This progress demands diligent effort (vv. 11-12).

While it is true that it is God who “carries us along” to maturity (Heb. 6:1, 3), it is also true that the believer must do his part. We must not be lazy (“slothful,” the same word as “dull” in Heb. 5:11) but apply ourselves to the spiritual resources God has given us . We have the promises from God. We should exercise faith and patience and claim these promises for ourselves! Like Caleb and Joshua, we must believe God’s promise and want to go in and claim the land!

Thyatira, the Corrupted Church

(Rev 2 vv. 24-29)

Not everyone in the assembly was unfaithful to the Lord, and He had a special word for them. They had separated themselves from the false doctrine and compromising practices of Jezebel and her followers, which Christ denounces as “the depths of Satan” (note the contrast in 1 Cor. 2:10). The Lord had no special demands to make; He simply wanted them to hold fast in their resistance to evil. “Till I come” refers to Christ’s return for His people, at which time He will reward them for their faithfulness (see Rev. 3:3; 16:15; 22:7, 17, 20). This is the first mention in Revelation of the Lord’s coming for the church, the event we commonly call the Rapture (see 1 Thes. 4:13-18).

As you review these first four messages to the churches, you can see the dangers that still exist for the people of God. Like Ephesus, we can be zealous and orthodox, but at the same time lose our devotion to Christ. Or, like Thyatira, our love can be increasing yet lacking in the kind of discernment that is necessary to keep the church pure (see Phil. 1:9-11). Like Pergamos and Thyatira, we may be so tolerant of evil that we grieve the Lord and invite His judgment.

Would we have selected Smyrna as the most spiritual church of the four? Probably not, yet the Lord did! We need to remind ourselves not to judge God’s people by wrong standards, because only the Lord can see the heart (see 1 Cor. 4:5).


(Warren Wiersbe’s “Be” Series: Old & New Testaments)

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Michael Harrison
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Consider what the Israelites had to go through to keep the law in the old days. Every disobedience had an effect to the extent that sometimes the person who was so, was directly approached. For it was told to the priests in the Holy of Holies before they went to battle, on occasion, who in turn called forth the unruly. There was discipline in the adherence to the law. Yet now we have people who believe that this discipline of adherence is done away in Christ. To them, all is lovely, and they are 'forgiven' regardless. This is most dangerous.

They cannot be cautioned that it is not so. Here is the danger sign - if there is pride in their assumption. Pride goeth before the fall! Pride is a substitute of the Spirit of God. It is something that the evil one slips to the believer like a drug in a drink. These drink away unawares, not paying attention to any concern, self convinced, with the help of that pride (for it is not the convincing of the Holy Spirit that leads to such belief).

Does the conscience not tell you, is it not better to err on the side of caution? Certainly, scriptures have to be ignored in order to believe the one way. And I am reminded of the scripture:

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

The righteous scarcely are saved? That means barely. That to me means, that one is not to take for granted their salvation, not as though they 'do' something to accomplish it, but that they 'fear' the one in whose hands salvation is. In this manner they will be delivered from presumption. For who would want to show up with a beaming face, and find out that in their zeal, they overlooked a tiny detail, and find themselves 'mortally shocked' to discover that they overlooked it, to their undoing?

There is something in the statements of kindgo that rings true based on God's loving kindness. However, something is missing, though the seeming fact seems so profoundly evident. By some scriptures, it is understandable why one would come to such a conclusion, however, there also seems to be some self-election in coming to the conclusion of it.

He did it all. True! However, that said, we participate. It does not happen without our participation (It is and will forever be 'now'). Truly, it sounds strange to hear "It is done, but it is not automatic." But it is true. That is the mystery of faith. Faith is 'having', but faith is not presuming. They are different. And the fruit of faith:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

....is victory over the world! Victory over the world is the fruit of faith that tells one that they are not presuming, and extracting the wrong meaning from verses that seem to indicate to a believer has misread. If one has not the victory over the world, then they are self deceived, and face the loss of what they think they have.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The question here is, how can you be a servant without salvation? So that is another question, whether the above mentioned are truly saved or not. But my assumption is that this verse adresses the saved, else they are not servants. You can't work for the vendor of the software, and claim that you are working for Bill Gates. Well, you can. But it is indirect, and you are not on Bill's payroll. Therefore you can't. So by that illustration, the servant is not such an one who works for a vendor of Gates' software, but rather one who is on the Gates' payroll.


Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;

How do we 'neglect so great a salvation'? By presuming, taking for granted, willfully sinning thinking it is 'covered'.

But if that sounds hard, in His true loving kindness, He has provided a way, and it is as easy as presuming is. It is by surrender. It is the surrender of faith that bears the fruit that reveals to us that we are 'abiding' in His love, and not banking on something that 'seems'.

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Keith
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I Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The one who will not confess their sins to God, will not be forgiven, and thus will not be saved. This applies to all, whether they have already been saved or not. The one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, must also continue to confess their sins to God, and ask His forgiveness through His Son Jesus Christ, or they will not be saved.

Whoever loses this fundamental connection with God through Christ, has lost salvation. Nobody can be forgiven for sins which they refused to confess, and therefore acknowledge as sin. The very thing that Christ died to deliver us from.

Do you OSAS's also believe that God has predetermined who will be saved, and who will not?

Y. b. in C, Keith

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becauseHElives
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Kindgo the love, kindness, mercy of Yahweh is not the question...

the question is to deal with the scriptures that deal with "to the end"

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that everyone of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcomes and keeps my works UNTO THE END, to him will I give power over the nations.

also here is a web site that speaks to all you who support "Once Saved Always Saved"...

please add the scriptures found on the following web site to Eden's and respond with an answer....

http://www.eternal-security.org/

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Kindgo
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Because of the eternal purpose of God toward the objects of His love, because of His freedom to exercise grace toward the meritless on the ground of the propitiatory blood of Jesus Christ, because of the very nature of the divine gift of eternal life, because of the present and unending intercession and advocacy of Jesus Christ in heaven, because of the immutability of the unchangeable covenants of God, because of the regenerating, abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of all who are saved, we and all true believers everywhere, once saved shall be kept saved forever.


God is a holy and righteous Father and that, since He cannot overlook the sin of His children, He will, when they persistently sin, chasten them and correct them in infinite love; but having undertaken to save them and keep them forever, apart from all human merit, He, who cannot fail, will in the end present every one of them faultless before the presence of His glory and conformed to the image of His Son.


(John 5:24; 10:28; 13:1; 14:16–17; 17:11; Rom. 8:29; 1 Cor. 6:19; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1–2; 5:13; Jude 24)

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God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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becauseHElives
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none of the "Once Saved Alway Saved" proponents have bothered to give any explanation to the question proposed by Eden or myself posted May 29, 2008 05:27 AM

very good points Eden... i to would like to hear the answer to your question

what do the words "to the end"
refer to in the following scriptures:


Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 6:11
And we desire that everyone of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope UNTO THE END.

Revelation 2:26
And he that overcomes and keeps my works UNTO THE END, to him will I give power over the nations.

also here is a web site that speaks to all you who support "Once Saved Always Saved"...

please add the scriptures found on the following web site to Eden's and respond with an answer....

http://www.eternal-security.org/

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
It is amazing how people in the most negative way want to have more power than God, ignore all of His rules to life, and arogantly deny what He wrought in Christ when He raised him from the dead.....
Fundamentalism

In the early years of this century, fundamentalism had a good record in defending orthodoxy. The intellectual giants of orthodoxy as well as the prominent preachers of that day stood for the historic Christian faith. These leaders defended the doctrines that have been believed by devout Christians throughout the centuries. Later in the twentieth century the emphasis shifted to some extent. Separation became as important a doctrine as the historic fundamentals. The harsh spirit of fundamentalism did not always properly adorn the gospel of Christ , and although the statements may or may not have been correct, the attitude in which it was presented was not always favorable, especially when it involved negative statements against fellow believers.

Over the years the mood of fundamentalism has changed, which has led some to designate the modern fundamentalist movement as neo-fundamentalism. Whereas historic fundamentalism emphasized separatism from apostasy, later fundamentalism stressed “secondary separation,”—avoidance of other conservatives who associated with liberals.

Neo-fundamentalism may be identified as the modern movement that, while holding to the historic fundamental doctrines of Scripture, has evolved into a movement with different emphases and perspectives. Neo-fundamentalism has remained true to the historic doctrines of the Christian faith, steadfastly defending those doctrines in pulpits and classrooms. However, although historic fundamentalism has fielded intellectual giants, neo-fundamentalism has tended to reject intellectualism and seminary training.

This anti-intellectualism has resulted in aberrations of orthodoxy, particularly seen in the “King James only” movement. Even though early fundamentalists certainly believed in the inspiration of the autographs, some neo-fundamentalists have tended to go further and actually advocate the inspiration of the King James Version, even including it in their doctrinal statements.

Neo-fundamentalism has also tended toward legalism , adding explicit statements regarding behavior to doctrinal statements.

In addition, neo-fundamentalism has also advocated secondary separationism, calling for avoidance of other Christians who do not follow the same rigid standards . In advocating this attitude, neo-fundamentalism has tended toward divisiveness, splitting of churches, and fostering of ill will among genuine Christians. This is an unfortunate commentary on those who otherwise hold to correct doctrine.

Ultimately, sound doctrine should issue in life-changing behavior, the relational expression of which must be love (John 13:34-35; 1 John 2:10,11; 3:14). Love is the Christian’s duty even when engaged in conflict with heresy or immorality. The biblical admonitions to love need to be taken seriously.

Evangelicalism

Evangelical is a biblical term, derived from the Greek euangelion , meaning “the good news,” hence, an evangelical is one who heralds the good news of Jesus Christ ...in America the term is understood to denote one who holds to the historic doctrines of the faith. Evangelical is frequently preferred to the term fundamentalist because the former is usually considered a more irenic term whereas the latter is frequently identified with separatism and legalism.

Neo-evangelicalism arose as a reaction, particularly expressed in its dissatisfaction with fundamentalism . Carl F. H. Henry (b. 1913), a prominent evangelical theologian suggested fundamentalism had shifted “from classic fundamentalism as a theology to fundamentalism as a negative reactionary spirit.” Henry believed fundamentalism was misrepresenting biblical Christianity through narrow thinking by concentrating on only part of the biblical message; showing a lack of scholarship; having a preoccupation with fighting modernism; and exhibiting a harsh, unloving, and contentious spirit.


(The Moody Handbook of Theology)

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Michael Harrison
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Amen!

When Paul spoke, who was speaking? Paul was not speaking for Christ, but by Christ. He was yielded to Christ, and spoke not of himself. We see Paul, but we are hearing Christ.


~


There is a misconception in the idea that Jesus died for past sin, and future sin, as it is understood. He died to save from sin. Yes! But a better way of saying that is that He died to deliver from sin. "If one is not delivered from sin, then he is not saved from sin. He is in it. If he is in it, he is on the side of judgment. So without repentance, one is subject to the penalty of sin. Jesus didn't die so that one could live in sin and say that they were saved from it. Get ahold of it or have a rude awakening.

Here is why HE says that "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin." It is because these do not accept the sacrifice so that they may benefit thereof, but rather, they misunderstand what this means. Therefore, they simply justify sin, those who hold this notion claiming that no one goes to hell because Jesus made the sacrifice for sin.

Jesus died to deliver you from sin, 'and the power of sin'. The scriptures, read with this in mind will be clear!!! He didn't die to save you for you to continue in sin while claiming that He is your propitiation. Here is the participation part, not as it were of works, but faith. You participate in this deliverance. Or, you are on the side of His judgment.

If you 'abide' in sin, you do not abide 'in' Him. This is a fact. All sin is forgivable, but abiding in it is not. It's like not repenting! (Therefore you are not taking advantage of His provision.) It is like saying, "I'll be at work on time," but you don't get on the bus. So you are late. You have to be on the bus to benefit. You have to participate with the bus. You have to participate with the deliverer. You cannot say you are saved if you are not on the bus. You show up late. You cannot show up at the wedding feast without the wedding garment on. Else, you show up in dirty clothes. And what does He do? He has you ushered out.

quote:
If I sin, then immediatly I'm struck by lightening, am I condemmed to hell for eternity?

Which sins will cause me to lose my salvation? How many do I have to commit?

Which sins did Jesus not die for?

If you are in sin and you are struck by lightening, you better be concerned.

Which ones will cause me to lose my salvation? The ones you are in when you croak.

Which sins did Jesus not die for? The better question is, which sins is He appropiating His blood for; the ones you repent of, or the ones you are willfully living in? The answer is the ones you repent of, the ones you allow Him to appropiate His cleansing blood for.


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UNFRUITfulness is not a sin. But scripture is clear as a blue sky. If the branch is withered, it is cast into the furnace.

SO! He says, "If you 'continue' in my word (and are thereby watered) then are ye my disciples." Do ye continue in His word? Or are you married to the world with the attitude that His blood covers you for sins.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Rom 6:23)

This remains true. The wages of sin is 'death'. This is present tense! (It is forever and alays NOW.) But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, If "You 'continue' in my word." If you are "walking in darkness," and claiming that He is 'saving' you from sin (as it says in 1 John 1:6) you lie, and 'do' not the truth.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
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quote:
Whereas on the other hand when I read Jesus' teachings I take into consideration that Jesus is the Son of God. If Paul and Jesus ever seem to contradict , guess who's side I am going to err on?
Galatians 1:11 - 12 (NLT)

11 Dear brothers and sisters, I want you to understand that the gospel message I preach is not based on mere human reasoning. 12 I received my message from no human source, and no one taught me. Instead, I received it by direct revelation from Jesus Christ.

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