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Author
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Topic: Once Saved Always Saved ?
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Billy
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Member # 7193
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posted
quote:
Michael wrote:
This is like the arguement with zeena about the old man being dead. He is not! Scripturally yes, he is.
Say what?!? Either the old man is dead or he's not. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. Which is it?
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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oneinchrist
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posted
Good evening Billy,
Yes I agree, the Lord surely deserves our praise and worship. He was never under any obligation to share His existence with us. But here we are as evidence of His love. Not only that, to a sinful, ungrateful, and rebellious world God still decided to sacrifice His Son so that we may be able spend eternity with Him in His Holy presence. I wish everyone believed that God deserves all of our praise and worship ......but no, many would rather say "How could a loving God make a place like Hell?" May God help us reach them.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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posted
When a man understands that he is the passive party, then will he 'have' it. Until then, he abides in dead works. Let he who hath ears to hear, hear!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
People assume things, and take things for granted, which their understanding is not fruitful concerning. This is like the arguement with zeena about the old man being dead. He is not! Scripturally yes, he is. But in reality he is one's worst enemy. He is very alive and one doesn't know it. That makes the believer 'not' to experience the manifold blessings of God. But he is ignorant of it. That is why he is so dangerous. He isn't recognized. Therefore like in the argument above, it cannot be expected to be so unless one taste the fruit of its being so. And the epistle writers detail how that one should know.
The point is, how far can one repent. Until he finds out, he doesn't know. He may think that he has, yet he has not. Even the word should point this out, but nevertheless. people 'go around it' rather than face it head on.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Yes, there are people who believe that way, but oxymoron? Nope! You are taking to be a statement of fact that one walks in the light because they are saved. That is not what the epistle writers are implying. In fact, their comments are an admonition not to walk in the dark. The difference is as stark as day and night. Here is another play on free will, if one will. The very admonition of the apostles is not to walk in the dark. This is the epistles from start to finish. But some who walk in the dark simply do not see it. Yet others do have an awareness, but either do not find exactly what the apostles are talking about, that they may benefit thereby, or simply donot try. \
It is a strange and morbid stretch for someone to think that they are walking in the light just because they are saved. And this is a conditon that afflicts virtually all, or probably most christians until they start reading the word the way it is written, and quit letting their old nature which is not, as supposed, dead, tell them something different.
The story of selling all to buy the pearl would apply here. The moral of that story is that one should 'dig deeper'. There is something more than what the stumped understanding accepts. But here again, this takes humbling which is supernatural. The pride of the flesh has a hard time stooping to find this out.
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Billy
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posted
quote:
Michael wrote:
If someone saved, hardenes their heart...
Tell me where you find this in scripture. It occurs to me that this is an oxymoron. Read 1John 1 and Galatians 5. No one that is saved walks in darkness. Evidence that you are a true Christian, that you have truly been converted, is that you walk in the light! This carnal Christian stuff is bonkers. Almost as bonkers as the idea that God would call you His child, and then abandone you because you've sinned. Rather, if you read James it appears that, like any good father, our Father disciplines us until He gets the fruit out of us that He desires.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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posted
quote:
Billy,
By the way, I do agree with you that no man should boast. Even an individual who believes in free-will should humble himself by the reason that God is the One who has given him the ability to choose his response. A man exalts free-will if He forgets the source of all blessing. Believing in free-will does not necessarily mean that free-will is exalted above measure.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I believe it was R.C. Sproul (the Calvinist) that said something to the effect of, "Even if God never chose to save us, He would still be worthy of all worship and praise."
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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posted
quote:
Billy,
By the way, I do agree with you that no man should boast. Even an individual who believes in free-will should humble himself by the reason that God is the One who has given him the ability to choose his response. A man exalts free-will if He forgets the source of all blessing. Believing in free-will does not necessarily mean that free-will is exalted above measure.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I believe it was R.C. Sproul (the Calvinist) that said something to the effect of, "Even if God never chose to save us, He would still be worthy of all worship and praise."
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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Member # 7193
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posted
quote:
Does this passage in Matthew teach the eternal insecurity of all who claim faith in Christ? No, but neither does it give a blank check for all who march the sawdust trail. That kind of religion reduces faith to a life insurance policy.
You will never see me teaching that, either.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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posted
quote:
Matthew 22:1 - 14 (NLT)
1Jesus also told them other parables. He said, 2“The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! 4“So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ 5But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. 6Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them. 7“The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. 8And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. 9Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ 10So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. 11“But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. 13Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
I've been meditating a lot on this passage, the past couple of days. A few things that I've noticed. There is a wedding feast. This is obviously representative of the kingdom of heaven. God calls the nobles. They respond visciously. As I said before, man's will leads to evil. God calls the undesirables. They come. However, they are not all chosen. There are false converts in their midst. These false converts suffer the same fate as the men who beat and killed the ones that invited them to the feast. This is to be likened to the parable of the wheat and the tares, the parable of the good fish and the bad fish, the parable of the good servants and the bad servant, the parable of the virgins and their lamps, the parable of the seed sower, etc.
All of these show us that we are among false converts. They think that they are going to get into heaven because they prayed some prayer or because they were baptized, but they're hearts have not been regenerated. They are still the same old sinner that they always were. They came to the meeting place, but they were not welcome, for they had not received the wedding garments from the King. They are imposters who would best serve themselves to hit their knees and ask the Lord to please do a sovereign work in their hearts that they may come to repentance and faith in Him. That's what I see in that passage.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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Hi Billy,
I would like to discuss the word "draw" with you as it is used by Jesus in the gospels. Jesus states that "No man can come unto Me unless My Father draws Him". No argument there. What can we say. Jesus said it that makes it so. The disagreement I have with others is that they take this word "draws" and they define it as a single event (for ex: a quickening of the spirit, or being born-again), but I contend that Jesus may not be using that word in that particular way.
First of all, it appears Jesus is honoring His Father with that statement.....gloriyfying Him as the source of all things. If we look at the OT and the NT we see God drawing men to him through all kinds of works/manifestations among the people. In the NT, God is certainly drawing individuals to Jesus by the miracles, signs, and wonders manifested through Him.
What do you think?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Oh, I agree completely. I'll give two analogies. A man draws some water from a well. A man draws a horse to his side. In each instance we must ask ourselves, which is the passive party? Does the man call to the water and wait for it to come? Does the man call to the horse and wait for it to come? No. In both instances, the man is the one doing the work. The man actively scoops a handful of water from the fountain. The man actively tugs on the reigns of the animal. This is what the essence of the word is. God not only calls His chosen. For assuredly, all are called, but He takes it a step further and He draws us to Him as well.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Billy
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Sorry I was gone for so long, guys. I have been quite busy. I will try to answer everyone's questions, if you'll bear with me. Thank you for being so patient.
quote:
Michael wrote:
Well, the pain in the message is, did God 'draw' the unbeliever away? Did HE 'choose' him to be hell bound? What do we say to someone like that, too bad for you, because God 'chose' me?
He does draw us by His Spirit. But HIS drawing does not equal choosing for them?
As I have said, MAN's will leads to sin. God's will leads to glory. God does not choose damnation for us. We choose damnation when we willfully sin against an eternally holy and righteous God. This is clear from scripture. The gospel is God's redeeming grace which has not been offered to all men. Would you say, then, that God is evil because He did not esure that every man on earth has always had the gospel of Christ to 'respond' to? God is not evil. He has sound reason for everything He does, and we will not know why until we are with Him. Even then we will never fully understand Him, because He is infinite and we are not.
quote:
I am sure that HE drew many people over the years who nevertheless rejected Him. Consider it like offering a frightened dog a biscuit. Does the dog warm up to you to get the biscuit, or does it cling to what it understands, trusting in itself for whatever else it can find? The offer is there, which is like HIS Spirit drawing you. But will the right decision be made?
I'm sure God could make a frightened dog do whatever He wants him to do. Look at the story of Moses. Look at Joseph. God uses the weak, not because of their willing obedience, but because He tends to want to glorify Himself rather than man. Paul knew this all too well.
quote:
It is important to realize that God wanted people who would choose Him. This is the story of Abraham. Only, in the case of Issac, Abraham wasn't choosing God, except to the extent that he was choosing to obey. But HE was choosing God over sin and separation. Being here in this life is about 'choosing' God. If HE wanted to create people who had already chosen Him, He would have created us like the angels. They didn't get to choose. Blessed are we who do. Powerfully blessed are we who are fortunate enough to 'choose' HIM. Because HE desires such. Amen!
This is an imposition on the text. Abraham was saved when he believed God about his Seed, which is Jesus Christ (Genesis 15; Galatians 3). Years later, when he was given the task of sacrificing his firstborn son, it was through his obedience that he was justified (Genesis 22; James 2). But what is this justification that James speaks of? It is the logical outworking of your faith through righteous deeds. For in verse 23, James says: "...and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God."
I see no reference, in all of Scripture, of God appearing to a man and called him to a task, where the man simply refused to receive it. Even Jonah, the obstinant, eventually did what God had commissioned him to do. We are all called to repentance and faith. I can't explain why, but not all of us are chosen for it.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
- 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Quite simply, deliberate and willful predetermination by God who would be saved, cannot be reconciled to this verse!!! So, which ever way it is looked at, looks like the way it is depending upon which one is being looked at, at the moment. But for practical reasons, we earthlings probably should view it as random, according to whosoever will believe, and rejoice whenever one does.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
Of Carol quote:
Eternal insecurity, however, reduces faith to a guessing game in which we all hope not to be the one tossed away on Judgment Day. This is not Christian faith. Christian faith is living in a new relationship to God, characterized by love and proven by faithful service.
It is no guessing game. If someone saved, hardenes their heart because they are overcome with sin, and thereafter they prefer it, they know what is going to happen to them. They have chosen anew. If however someone trusts, believes and hopes, I have no doubt that they will be ok! They are not slapped into the hoosegow because they could not find out how to walk on water. (Nevertheless if they were not at all interested, there may be reason for concern.) It isn't just that God is looking for just any reason to cast someone into hell. That would make just about everybody insecure. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) But only the fearful would infer that that is what I have claimed!
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abbasgirl4ever
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I just thought I'd throw a wrench in the discussion... I personally don't have any problem with standing in the middle of God's Sovereign choice and Man's Free Will. I see them both in scripture, and though I don't get how it can be possible, I just attempt to take my shoes off and stand on holy ground. God can manage two seemingly contradictory truths and make them work in His economy.
With that said, here is the wrench...
"And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14
If this was a jewish worshiper's conversion experience... I personally see both sides of the coin... whatcha think?
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oneinchrist
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posted
Billy,
By the way, I do agree with you that no man should boast. Even an individual who believes in free-will should humble himself by the reason that God is the One who has given him the ability to choose his response. A man exalts free-will if He forgets the source of all blessing. Believing in free-will does not necessarily mean that free-will is exalted above measure.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Matthew 22:13
“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’” (NIV)
In Jesus’ parable, he moved beyond normal reality (for this would never happen in real life) to teach a spiritual truth. In the final judgment, God’s true people will be revealed. Claiming to belong at the wedding feast while refusing to wear the correct garments was like the nation of Israel claiming to be God’s people but refusing to live for him. Like the wicked tenants who deserved “a wretched end” (21:41), so this impostor at the banquet found himself tied up and thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth—a common biblical description of hell (see also 8:12; 13:42, 50).
Eternal Insecurity?
Does this passage in Matthew teach the eternal insecurity of all who claim faith in Christ? No, but neither does it give a blank check for all who march the sawdust trail. That kind of religion reduces faith to a life insurance policy. Once signed, it may be forgotten until death, when its terms come due. This is not Christian faith. Eternal insecurity, however, reduces faith to a guessing game in which we all hope not to be the one tossed away on Judgment Day. This is not Christian faith. Christian faith is living in a new relationship to God, characterized by love and proven by faithful service.
God’s love will never let you go, but don’t be presumptuous. If you recited the sinner’s prayer twenty years ago and haven’t thought of God since, wake up—you’re fooling no one. God calls you to a life of love and service. Follow it in faith every day.
Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.” (NKJV)
Those who are called but reject God’s invitation will be punished, as will those who seem to accept the call but fail to follow through. The use of the word “called” means “invited”. The invitation had gone out to all Israel, but only a few had accepted and followed Jesus. Jesus was applying this teaching to the Jews, who believed that because they were descendants of Abraham, they would be sure to share in the blessings of God’s kingdom through the Messiah. But Jesus taught that not all those invited would actually be among the chosen of God. As Jesus had noted earlier, “Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13 NIV).
(Life Application Bible Commentary: Matthew)
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Carol Swenson
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Matthew 22:1 - 14 (NLT)
1Jesus also told them other parables. He said, 2“The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! 4“So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ 5But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. 6Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them. 7“The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. 8And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. 9Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ 10So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. 11“But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. 13Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
The Spirit of God is bearing witness through the Word to the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is the Spirit who convinces the world of sin (John 16:7-11). The Spirit can be resisted by unbelievers (Acts 7:51), but nobody knows that crisis hour (if there is one) when the Spirit stops dealing with a lost sinner.
Matthew 22:11-14 seems like an appendix to the parable, but it is vitally important. The wedding garment was provided by the host so that everybody was properly attired. Salvation is personal and individual. We must accept what God gives to us—the righteousness of Christ.
The wedding clothes picture the righteousness needed to enter God’s kingdom—the total acceptance in God’s eyes that Christ provides for every believer (Isaiah 61:10). Christ has provided this garment of righteousness for everyone, but each person must put it on (accept Christ’s gracious provision of his life given for us) in order to enter the King’s banquet (eternal life).
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Billy,
I would like to discuss the word "draw" with you as it is used by Jesus in the gospels. Jesus states that "No man can come unto Me unless My Father draws Him". No argument there. What can we say. Jesus said it that makes it so. The disagreement I have with others is that they take this word "draws" and they define it as a single event (for ex: a quickening of the spirit, or being born-again), but I contend that Jesus may not be using that word in that particular way.
First of all, it appears Jesus is honoring His Father with that statement.....gloriyfying Him as the source of all things. If we look at the OT and the NT we see God drawing men to him through all kinds of works/manifestations among the people. In the NT, God is certainly drawing individuals to Jesus by the miracles, signs, and wonders manifested through Him.
What do you think?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
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posted
Well, the pain in the message is, did God 'draw' the unbeliever away? Did HE 'choose' him to be hell bound? What do we say to someone like that, too bad for you, because God 'chose' me?
He does draw us by His Spirit. But HIS drawing does not equal choosing for them?
I am sure that HE drew many people over the years who nevertheless rejected Him. Consider it like offering a frightened dog a biscuit. Does the dog warm up to you to get the biscuit, or does it cling to what it understands, trusting in itself for whatever else it can find? The offer is there, which is like HIS Spirit drawing you. But will the right decision be made?
It is important to realize that God wanted people who would choose Him. This is the story of Abraham. Only, in the case of Issac, Abraham wasn't choosing God, except to the extent that he was choosing to obey. But HE was choosing God over sin and separation. Being here in this life is about 'choosing' God. If HE wanted to create people who had already chosen Him, He would have created us like the angels. They didn't get to choose. Blessed are we who do. Powerfully blessed are we who are fortunate enough to 'choose' HIM. Because HE desires such. Amen!
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Billy
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This is fun. I like discussing these things. However, let's not forget that we are one in Christ, and this means that we can disagree on the non-essentials, but we should never divide over them. Now, if we disagree on the essentials, that's cause to start breaking yokes.
That being said, I suppose that the presumption is that belief is proof of free will. Or as GreenCandle might put it: belief = free will. This is a false presumption. There is a process that takes place before a man is able to believe on Christ. The Father must draw him. In essence, the belief is implanted in him. For it is written:
John 6:35-45
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, `I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, `AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
So, I'll ask again, what part of salvation does man play? Do we enact it? Or do we just testify of it? I would argue that we simply testify of it.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Michael Harrison
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posted
I'll repost this since you missed it. Did we have something to do with it; or were we 'determined' to be saved? After all, even after we believed, our free will chose to, or not to follow!
- Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
For 'what if' some did not 'believe'?
Shall their 'unbelief' make the "Faith of God," without effect?
Hum!
They have unbelief. God has faith! Is His faith 'of none effect' since they 'don't believe'? They sound separate, don't they?
Whew!
- Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ untoall and upon all them - that believe: for there is no difference:
- Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
See the act of the will here? If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, which is a willing participation, or acknowledgment!
Well ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) Two faiths!
- Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith - of -Jesus Christ, even we have 'believed' in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith 'of' Christ[which is in us because we believed], and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, even he who has believed? Even we have believed 'in' Jesus Christ. Then what? Then the 'faith of' Christ Jesus is free to:
"Work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure."
- Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
It is the faith 'of' God that works on our behalf. It is ineffective without our 'belief'. "and the life that I now live, live I by the 'faith of' the Son of God, who loved/loves me, and gave/gives Himself for me." Therefore, I believe 'in' the 'faith of'. What a match up ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif) !
This is belief: the faith 'in' His blood.
- Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
This is belief which saves, because the 'faith of' Jesus fills and carries us after that we have believed. - Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
That means those who go to the alter in confidence that the 'faith of' Christ Jesus will save them, are putting 'faith in' Christ that the 'faith of' Christ may be manifest in them (which is to say - bear witness).
- Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) Amen!
Read the word the way it is written and all is well. HE does not leave us in the dark!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Billy
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posted
Did Lazarus choose to be resurrected? How can we then choose to be brought out of spiritual death? We have not the ability to choose Him apart from His regenerating work. What is with this desire to assign some kind of credit to man for the work of salvation, as though it were for our glory? Should we say that we have chosen Him, so that we can boast of ourselves and what a great choice we made? Far be it. God gets all the glory. I know that God practically forced my repentance, and He is still working on providing the growth for the fruits of my mustard seed faith. I am forever grateful for this, because there was nothing in me that was worth saving. Nothing!
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
carol responded quote:
Instead of reading this as, 'God hates sin but we aren't told why'
Try reading it as, 'God hates sin. For His own reasons He allows it to be present.'
In fact, I'm going to change the comma in that sentence.
Try reading it as, 'God hates sin, and HE cannot even 'look' upon it!' Therefore HE paid a terrible price of not only leaving the comfort of Heaven to come to earth, but to suffer humiliation, rejection, and a bloody death to reconcile us to Him. HE doesn't 'tolerate' sin per se. That isn't the way to look at it. He endures it much like the way that HE stated that HE "suffers" divorce, because they were going to do it anyway.
But He died to provide us a way to aviod it! No one sees that. It is too convenient to ignore!
~! !~
quote:
Election - We don't choose Him. He chose us before the foundation of the earth. This is a work of God.
So (I know what you said about not telling sinners, but) what do you tell someone unsaved, that they were 'elected' to burn in hell?
quote:
Harrison sed quote:
Rom 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." Something to ponder: Does this mean that HE 'determined'? Or, does this reveal that HE 'knew' who would choose Him? Therefore, HE foreknew by realization who would, rather than, He determined who would. We should let God be God, and the commission be the commission.
So if HE foreknew, He could 'predestinate' without 'choosing' for them, by overriding their will, since HE already knew! But their will was free! Everyone had the same opportunity, come judgment day.
If HE knew by realization, does that mean that HE choose? He knew the end already. Does that mean that HE chose for anyone? He set things in motion. Because HE knew, did HE chose?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
carol responded quote:
Instead of reading this as, 'God hates sin but we aren't told why'
Try reading it as, 'God hates sin. For His own reasons He allows it to be present.'
In fact, I'm going to change the comma in that sentence.
Try reading it as, 'God hates sin, and HE cannot even 'look' upon it!' Therefore HE paid a terrlble price of not only leaving the comfort of Heaven to come to earth, but to suffer humiliation, rejection, and a bloody death to reconcile us to Him. HE doesn't 'tolerate' sin per se. That isn't the way to look at it. He endures it much like the way that HE stated that HE "suffers" divorce, because they were going to do it anyway.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Billy
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posted
KnowHim,
I don't know about 'hyper' Calvinism. To tell you the truth, I don't really know much about Calvinism. All I know is that I've read through the Bible. I've done much study on hermeneutics and exegesis. When I listen to neo Reformers and neo Puritans such as Paul Washer, R.C. Sproul and John Piper, it makes sense with what I've read. These pastors do not seem to deviate from scripture one bit when it comes to the doctrine of salvation.
Is there a response necessary, for salvation to take place? Short answer: yes. Is this response brought forth by a work of the free will? I would say no. If you say yes, does that mean you are not saved? Of course not. It means that we disagree on a non-essential doctrine. The important thing is, did you respond?
Secondly, I don't discuss with non-Christians the process that I outlined for you, above, when I'm witnessing to them. I show them, through the law, that they are headed for hell. I tell them what Christ did for us that we might be saved. I give God the benefit of the doubt as to whether or not they are to be saved. I never assume that it is not in Christ's power or God's will to save the person that I am witnessing to. Instead, I believe that He would not have sent them to me if He did not want me to plant a seed.
I certainly do not believe in putting God in a box. I believe that my understanding of salvation, as outlined above, actually glorifies God much more than many of the free will proponents' ideas. Free will salvation, in my honest opinion, elevates man, limits the sovereignty of God and puts Him in a box.
I am open for further scripture-based discussion on this issue. It is my goal to tailor myself to scripture. Not the other way around. However, I will point out that the OSAS (or atleast people's definition of it) doctrine seems to be under attack on this board far more than Universalim, Annihilationism or teaching that God = Energy. Why is that? Why is it that threats are made that OSAS (or Calvinist) posts will be removed from the board, but these heresies are given free reign. Last I checked, Calvanists and Armenianists all attended the same churches and took of the same communion. I would not commune with a Universalist, nor would I give a platform to an Annihilationist in my church. However, I would gladly join hands with an Armenianist and go fishing for men.
In Christ,
Billy.
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
KnowHim said "DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website."
DaveB said:
quote:
The biblical gospel states that Jesus paid for the sins of those he had come to save (the elect, as Jesus himself says ). At some pre-determined time in their life, God applies the payment of Jesus' to the elect sinner through the hearing of the word of God, gives them a new nature (being born again john 3:3) and imputes Jesus' righteousness to their account. The result of this is a sinner living a transformed life, marked by repentance, prayer, forgiveness, hatred for his or her sin, love for Christ, God and man etc.
The presupposition of the biblical gospel (sometimes derisively labeled "Calvinism") is that all men are sinners with free-will. Because the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, man will always use his free-will to choose sin and will never, of his own free-will, accept Christ or repent. This is because the nature rules the will and our natures will not accept the spiritual things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Thus being "born again" requires an act of God, changing the nature, which rules the will. Thus "coming forward", "repentance" are "responses" to being born again, instead of "causes" of being born again.
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
posted March 17, 2008 16:35
quote:
No more warnings. DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website.
Calvanism is based on a limited and crippled understanding of Scripture.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005455;p=1
Acutally I later wrote:
I have already reconsidered this Calvinism vs. Arminianism
First of all I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I know one thing for sure. You can be the ism you want to be, but if you don’t know Jesus Christ you are on your way to hell.
I said, "don’t push it on people and don’t turn ever topic into a debate about Calvinism.".
But if it is one's intention of coming on here to convert people to this way of thinking, and it starts to be a problem. Then I will deal with it then.
I believe some of Calvinism is correct but I don't think hyper-Calvinism is correct. Hyper-Calvinisms actually hurt the cause of Christ.
I like the below by Phillip Johnson:
I wrote and posted this article because I am concerned about some subtle trends that seem to signal a rising tide of hyper-Calvinism, especially within the ranks of young Calvinists and the newly Reformed. I have seen these trends in numerous Reformed theological forums on the Internet, including mailing lists, Web sites, and Usenet forums.
Lest anyone wonder where my own convictions lie, I am a Calvinist. I am a five-point Calvinist, affirming without reservation the Canons of the Synod of Dordt. And when I speak of hyper-Calvinism, I am not using the term as a careless pejorative. I'm not an Arminian who labels all Calvinism "hyper." When I employ the term, I am using it in its historical sense.
History teaches us that hyper-Calvinism is as much a threat to true Calvinism as Arminianism is. Virtually every revival of true Calvinism since the Puritan era has been hijacked, crippled, or ultimately killed by hyper-Calvinist influences. Modern Calvinists would do well to be on guard against the influence of these deadly trends.
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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posted
Thanks WildB your correct and this will not go on. I deleted that topic and will ban GreenCandel if they continue promoting the Gospel Of Thomas
My Dad passed away on August 13th and I took over all of his website hosting services. I miss him very much and I have been slammed trying to keep things going. I got way behind because I set with him in the hospital for about 3 weeks before he passed away. I have not had time to read the posts in the past weeks but hope to get things caught up soon as I love posting and reading the messages.
God bless to all,
David Campbell
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Its a shame that GreenCandel is free to teach Gnosticism and per mote The Gospel Of Thomas In Full ....
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002640
Wheres David on this?
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Hello Michael, I been tending to my mom and dad's needs their house burned down on the 19th of June and I haven't had much free time.
On the topic of "Once saved always saved"...remember one thing, just being in the cookie jar does not make you a cookie!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 12:50
Yahshua is the only door and Holiness or separation from this world is the straight and narrow path (the only way)....
and to claim salvation "Once saved always saved" and not have the two (the door and the path) being displayed in ones life is a mockery of all Yashua accomplished.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Billy,
It seems that you suggest that the response of man has absolutely nothing to do with Gods determining our salvation status.
According to every bible dictionary I have ever read .......your definition of repentance is not in any of them. You define repentance as a cause and effect, but the dictionary defines it as a type of response to God's Word....more specifically the type of response God is evidently looking for as a result of hearing the gospel message.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Billy
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posted
1) The free will of man only leads to evil.
2) The sovereignty of God only leads to holiness.
3) There is no man that is good. No, not one.
4) The heart is deceiptfully wicked.
We are 'born' again (or born from above). (John 3) How many babies do you know of that consciously chose to be born? Rather, the parents chose to conceive. In the same way, God chose us before the foundations of the earth. This is not debatable. This is what is taught in the word of God.
We share the gospel, because it is by that means (our foolish words) that God has chosen to save His elect. We don't share the gospel because we are trying to convince anyone of anything, but because we want to be a part of what the Holy Spirit is doing to convert the souls of the unconverted. Men's hearts, apart from God, are continuously evil all the time. What can be expected from that kind of heart? That it would 'choose' God? Please.
Free will does not lead to salvation. The work of God does that. Our sanctification does not occur prior to salvation. Thus, we must conclude that we cannot be expected to choose Him, because we do not love Him. He chooses us, because He loves us. Free will salvation is a man-centered doctrine that contradicts not only the sovereign nature of God, but the gospel of Christ.
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008
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Billy
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posted
quote:
Sovereignty must not obliterate free will, and free will must never dilute sovereignty.
I will agree that we exercise our free will when we sin. However, what part of salvation do you attribute to free will?
Election - We don't choose Him. He chose us before the foundation of the earth. This is a work of God.
Regeneration - Like Lazarus was dead in the grave, we are dead in our sins until we are called to life by our Lord. Just as Lazarus was helpless to come forth without being called, so to we are helpless to come forth unless we are called. This is a work of God.
Repentance - We are convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sin. This is the work of God.
Faith - We are convinced by the Holy Spirit of Christ's sacrificial atonement for our sins on the cross. This too is a work of God.
Justification - Christ's righteousness is acredited to our account. Yet again, work of God.
Sanctification - The Holy Spirit works through us that we may grow in holiness. Work of God.
Glorification - After the resurrection we will receive glorified bodies and will no longer be in the presence of sin. God.
At what point does free will come into the process of salvation?
In Christ,
Billy.
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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.
- The Apostle Paul
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Carol Swenson
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posted
quote:
Even though God hates sin, for reasons not revealed to us, sin is present by His permission.
Instead of reading this as, 'God hates sin but we aren't told why'
Try reading it as, 'God hates sin. For His own reasons He allows it to be present.'
In fact, I'm going to change the comma in that sentence.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
And carol said quote:
Even though God hates sin, for reasons not revealed to us, sin is present by His permission.
God hates sin because HE is Holy. He cannot even 'look' upon sin. Herein is why Jesus died and shed His blood, to be able to 'reconcile' to God, what sin vulgarly decimated. It took spilled blood to accomplish this.
What? Scriptures??? They are in the OT. When I recall them, I will post them.
Rom 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." Something to ponder: Does this mean that HE 'determined'? Or, does this reveal that HE 'knew' who would choose Him? Therefore, HE foreknew by realization who would, rather than, He determined who would. We should let God be God, and the commission be the commission.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Carol Swenson
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posted
Hi abbasgirl4ever
Welcome to the Christian BBS.
WOW, I like your post! Here's some more along the same lines...
The Father elected us. “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God” (v. 2). We are not told the basis of this election, it should be noted. However, God’s election is based squarely upon foreknowledge . Note: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate” (Rom. 8:29).
It should be quickly noted, though, that both man’s responsibility (Jn. 3:16; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17) and God’s sovereignty (Eph. 1:4, 5) are clearly taught in the Bible.
In one single statement, our Lord combined both doctrines of election and free will. Note his words:
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me [this is election]; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out [this is free will]” (Jn. 6:37).
The sovereignty of God seems to contradict the freedom or actual responsibility of man. But even though it may seem to do so, the perfection of sovereignty is clearly taught in the Scriptures so must not be denied because of our inability to reconcile it with freedom or responsibility.
Also, if God is sovereign, how can the creation be so filled with evil?
Man was created with genuine freedom, but the exercise of that freedom in rebellion against God introduced sin into the human race. Though God was the Designer of the plan, He was in no way involved in the commission of evil either on the part of Satan originally or of Adam subsequently. Even though God hates sin, for reasons not revealed to us sin is present by His permission. Sin must be within God’s eternal plan (or God would not be sovereign) in some way in which He is not the author of it (or God could not be holy).
Sovereignty/freedom forms an antinomy (“a contradiction between two apparently equally valid principles”). Antinomies in the Bible, however, consist only of apparent contradictions, not ultimate ones . One can accept the truths of an antinomy and live with them, accepting by faith what cannot be reconciled; or one can try to harmonize the apparent contradictions in an antinomy which inevitably leads to overemphasizing one truth to the neglect or even denial of the other.
Sovereignty must not obliterate free will, and free will must never dilute sovereignty.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
So Carol, what happened to the pillowhead mushroom?
And what happened to you becausehelives? I see you creeping back up. But you have been mighty quiet!
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becauseHElives
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posted
"Once saved always saved" is a mute point when considering Yahshua's own teachings on being "born again".......
13Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.
14But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.
15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
He (Yahshua) is the entrance of this there can be no argument, He is the only entrance....
verse 13-14 of Matthew Yahshua himself tells us many will not enter, the love of this world is so strong and peer pressure so great many will not even enter.....
Yahshua warned but most people don't heed warnings... Yahshua warned many false prophets would come telling people what they want to hear....don't fret over not gaining victory over sin in your life, you just a sinner saved by "Grace"... these false prophet make Yahshua's death and victory over sin just an abstract cliche ....
when in reality "Grace" is Yahweh's power in the life of the believer to overcome sin.
Grace enables the believer to after entering the gate (Yahshua) to walk the narrow path guided by the Holy Spirit.
Rom 8:13: “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
(Does not this verse apply to the Christian?)
"Once saved always saved" as taught by most teachers become a false doctrine, promoting a blasphemous life style that will cause many to end up in an eternal hell.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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abbasgirl4ever
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posted
I'm sooooo new here! Do we have a "head-spinning" emoticon? I read through this entire thread and just can't get my brain wrapped around it all.
I will fess up and say that I believe in once saved always saved... mainly because I believe that those that truly trust Christ will not desert Him. I also believe that the Holy Spirit will not leave me... ever. I trust that I am sealed in Him for the day of redemption. I believe it is possible to grieve Him, but I believe the word "grieve" is not equal to us running Him off. lupeo means to afflict with sorrow; to be sad; to offend. I don't think I'm powerful enough to run God off.
To the one who believes in Universal Salvation. Oh my. Could we just consider that the starting premise is wrong? I can't imagine we just throw out the words of Jesus because His audience happened to be to the Jew first. And really, salvation has ALWAYS been by faith. Salvation has NEVER been by the Law. Read Romans 1-7. The whole point is that the Law doesn't and has never saved. It was designed as a tutor to lead us to the ONE who saves, Jesus Christ; to show us that we can't keep the law, we can't be perfect. Abraham was not saved by works of the law. Abraham's salvation came through faith. He believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. He was justified by his faith. (And for those that believe that we are "regenerated" first... was Abraham regenerated first? The Holy Spirit's role in the OT was a bit different - Christ had not yet risen and ascended. Just wondering...) The point is... believers before the cross trusted in the coming Messiah by faith for their salvation. The works of the Law never saved... they only gave a picture of the one who was to come who could. The gospel is the same for both dispensations. And the gospel remains "believe on the name of the Lord and you will be saved" which, in my understanding, includes a belief that I cannot save myself and that I need a savior. In order for me to trust, I must renounce my independence and trust Jesus who alone can save me. That is an act of faith. Whether one believes you have to be regenerated first or whether one believes each one has a measure of faith already to believe... salvation is still by faith in the One Jesus Christ and His redemptive work. It is Christ in me that saves me and He does not inhabit every human being.
"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, becfause He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:13-15)
"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." (1 John 5:11-13)
I believe I was chosen before the foundation of the world AND I believe that I make a choice to believe the gospel of Christ or not. I don't think it matters much how that is possible. God is always bigger than my questions. I don't think it matters much HOW God chose me as much as what He has chosen me to. Scripture teaches us that we are chosen to bear fruit, chosen to obey Jesus, chosen to be sprinkled with His blood; that we are predestined to salvation, adoption, inheritance, glory, being conformed to Christ's image... God doesn't really stoop to explain how He does it... He just says it's true.
I personally have no trouble believing that I am both chosen/predestined to adoption as His child and that I have a free will and can choose by faith to accept or reject Him. I just take off my shoes and realize this is holy ground and His word is true, whether I understand how or not. I believe the God is utterly sovereign. I believe man has a free will. In God's economy, I think He can lay those side by side (parallel truths that never cross, if you will) and that it works whether my little brain "gets it" or not. That's why I can love and appreciate those of you who fall in the Calvinist camp and those of you who don't. If you bear the fruit of salvation and the Holy Spirit indwells you as proof of the divine nature of Christ in you... you are my brother and sister. (and in my belief... you will always be)
And just as a side... God's love is across the board. You can't make Him love you more by your righteous acts. You can't make Him love you less by your mess-ups. He loves you as much as He loves His Son (John 17:23).
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him....for all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Romans 8:9,14
There's so much freedom in resting in the grace of Christ and trusting that His divine power has given us every thing we need for life and godliness through truly knowing Jesus. In Him we have all we need. I don't know all the ways that the engine in my car works, but if I put gas in it, keep the engine in good repair, and turn the key, I have everything I need to get from point A to point B. I don't know all the ways God works, but if I stay filled up with the oil of the Spirit and keep the water-level of the word at full, when I turn the key and submit to His empowering, I'm changed from faith to faith, glory to glory, into the image of My Savior. I'll let Him worry about the way... I'll just trust in the Who. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Carol Swenson
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posted
DaveB
quote:
Salvation is an act of God. Our response to this act is a transformed life which bears fruit. If there is no fruit, you are simply not a Christian. You can say "well I believe the gospels" or "I accepted Christ". If the biblical evidence of salvation is not present in your life, you are not a Christian, period, no matter how many times or how sincerely you have come forward at some altar call.
Progressive Sanctification
Justification differs from sanctification thus: the former is an instantaneous act with no progression; while the latter is a crisis with a view to a process—an act, which is instantaneous and which at the same time carries with it the idea of growth unto completion .
2 Pet. 3:18—“But grow in [the] grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
2 Cor. 3:18—We “are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.” The tense is interesting here: We are being transformed from one degree of character, or glory, to another. It is because sanctification is progressive, a growth, that we are exhorted to “increase and abound” (1 Thess. 3:12), and to “abound more and more” (4:1, 10) in the graces of the Christian life.
The fact that there is always danger of contracting defilement by contact with a sinful world, and that there is, in the life of the true Christian, an ever increasing sense of duty and an ever-deepening consciousness of sin, necessitates a continual growth and development in the graces and virtues of the believer’s life.
There is such a thing as “perfecting holiness” (2 Cor. 7:1). God’s gift to the church of pastors and teachers is for the purpose of the perfecting of the saints in the likeness of Christ until, at last, they attain unto the fulness of the divine standard, even Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:11-15).
Holiness is not a mushroom growth; it is not the thing of an hour;
it grows as the coral reef grows: little by little, degree by degree. See also Phil. 3:10-15.
(The Great Doctrines of the Bible)
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Carol Swenson
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posted
FOR THE SINFUL, UNJUST, AND UNGODLY
Sinners of all sorts, degrees, and conditions may have a share in the redemptive work of Christ. Greece invited only the cultured, Rome sought only the strong. Judea bid for the religious only.
Jesus Christ bids all those that are weary and heavy-hearted and over-burdened to come to Him (Matt. 11:28).
Rom. 5:6-10—“Christ died for the ungodly.… While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.… When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”
1 Pet. 3:18—“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust.”
Christ died for sinners—those in open opposition to God; for the unjust—those who openly violate God’s laws; for the ungodly—those who violently and brazenly refuse to pay their dues of prayer, worship, and service to God; for enemies—those who are constantly fighting God and His cause. For all of these Christ died.
1 Tim. 1:15—“Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” Paul was a blasphemer, a persecutor, injurious (v. 13), a murderer (Acts 22 and 26), yet God saved him; he was included in the atonement. Note also that it is in this very connection that the apostle declares that the reason God saved him was in order that his salvation might be a pattern, or an encouragement to other great sinners, that God could and would save them, if they desired Him to do so.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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DaveB
quote:
This doctrine is false. It contradicts the biblical teaching on salvation, the nature of man, the love and unlimited atonement of God.
Unlimited atonement? You're teaching unlimited atonement? I WISH YOU WERE!
The atonement is sufficient for all; it is efficient for those who believe in Christ . The atonement itself, so far as it lays the basis for the redemptive dealing of God with all men, is unlimited; the application of the atonement is limited to those who actually believe in Christ. He is the Saviour of all men potentially (1 Tim. 1:15); of believers alone effectually (1 Tim. 4:10). The atonement is limited only by men’s unbelief.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
I'll repost this since you missed it. Did we have something to do with it; or were we 'determined' to be saved? After all, even after we believed, our free will chose to, or not to follow!
- Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
For 'what if' some did not 'believe'?
Shall their 'unbelief' make the "Faith of God," without effect?
Hum!
They have unbelief. God has faith! Is His faith 'of none effect' since they 'don't believe'? They sound separate, don't they?
Whew!
- Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ untoall and upon all them - that believe: for there is no difference:
- Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
See the act of the will here? If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, which is a willing participation, or acknowledgment!
Well Two faiths!
- Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith - of -Jesus Christ, even we have 'believed' in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith 'of' Christ[which is in us because we believed], and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ, even he who has believed? Even we have believed 'in' Jesus Christ. Then what? Then the 'faith of' Christ Jesus is free to:
"Work in us to will and to do of His good pleasure."
- Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
It is the faith 'of' God that works on our behalf. It is ineffective without our 'belief'. "and the life that I now live, live I by the 'faith of' the Son of God, who loved/loves me, and gave/gives Himself for me." Therefore, I believe 'in' the 'faith of'. What a match up !
This is belief: the faith 'in' His blood.
- Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
This is belief which saves, because the 'faith of' Jesus fills and carries us after that we have believed. - Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
That means those who go to the alter in confidence that the 'faith of' Christ Jesus will save them, are putting 'faith in' Christ that the 'faith of' Christ may be manifest in them (which is to say - bear witness).
- Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Amen!
Read the word the way it is written and all is well. HE does not leave us in the dark!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Dave,
Are you suggesting that an individual can sincerely repent towards God and believe on the Lord Jesus and not be saved?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
There are not two faiths, simple and profound. There is one faith, and it comes from God. Whether simple or complex, all saving faith comes from God. We are commanded to tell all people to "believe" not because man can of himself believe, but because that is the method God uses to save those who he graciously decided to save.
Well, I am dismayed that you believe that! I can not be convinced that God 'dictated' who would be saved. It is however another 'grey' area, hard to be understood. But I don't think that we should play God and pretend to understand.
That there are two faiths, God created man with the capacity to believe. If one believes, God our Lord will meet it. That a man has the capacity to believe, he therefore has the capacity to choose. This is apparently what happened to the thief on the Cross. Yet, in having a tender heart towards the Lord at the moment of their death, I do not think that he realized that he could be saved. He was just being both repentant (remorseful) and defensive of our Lord. Therefore when Jesus said that he would be in paradise that day, upon hearing, he must have 'believed'. For faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the one who can fulfill the promise. He chose Jesus before Jesus said a word to him.
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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Dave B.
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posted
Hi Michael adn Daniel,
Sorry for the delay in response. I have been ill.
I will again try to answer as best I can.
OK, Daniel asked, if a core belief of mine is man is unable to choose good because of his sin nature. Therefore, a man must be born-again in order to be saved from this condition, thus enabled to choose good.
Well not quite. The biblical gospel calls all men to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. It is through this preaching of the gospel, that God uses to convert the sinner. The saved person's response is that of a saved person, which may include "coming forward", but not necessarily. Thus a sinner is saved by the act of God, according to God's plan. I used Paul's conversion and the Thief on the Cross' conversion as illustrations, rather than proofs of this teaching. But they are good examples of the change in heart that only God can do, not inresponse to our religious acts, but because He is gracious.
Man has free will. But Man's will is not the problem. Man's nature is the problem. According to the Bible, man is dead in trespasses and sins. Jesus himself taught that man is not able or willing to come to Jesus of his own will. because his nature is dead.
The reason these are core beliefs of mine, is because it is precisely what the Bible teaches regarding salvation.
The doctrine of the modern gospel was introduced by Charles Finney and John Wesley over 100 years ago. It states that man, despite being declared dead in trespasses and sins, yet somehow has sufficient grace and faith remaining in him to make a decision for Christ. This doctrine is false. It contradicts the biblical teaching on salvation, the nature of man, the love and unlimited atonement of God.
The result of this gospel is 1000's of people sitting in Church, who believed they are saved because they "accepted Christ" at some point in their lives, who may not be saved at all. Many people who look at their lives and worry about "losing their salvation" are told "No, once saved, always saved, because you accepted Christ". In answering this post's question "Once saved, always saved", we must first understand what salvation is. Salvation is an act of God. Our response to this act is a transformed life which bears fruit. If there is no fruit, you are simply not a Christian. You can say "well I believe the gospels" or "I accepted Christ". If the biblical evidence of salvation is not present in your life, you are not a Christian, period, no matter how many times or how sincerely you have come forward at some altar call.
So, you may say once again, "I believe we are able to decide, because the Bible tells us to believe". But this is not the teaching of the Bible.
There are not two faiths, simple and profound. There is one faith, and it comes from God. Whether simple or complex, all saving faith comes from God. We are commanded to tell all people to "believe" not because man can of himself believe, but because that is the method God uses to save those who he graciously decided to save.
Well again, I hope this helps! Talk to you all later.
Dave B.
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Michael Harrison
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Dav eB! Faith is the gift of God. But here is how it is: You say that there is no term 'simple belief' in the bible. But I tell you that it exists there, even though it is not so labeled. For Jesus, before He performed any healing asked if those whom HE would touch, believed. That carries tremendous weight, whether they believed or not. And one of the respondants replied, "I believe. Help thou my unbelief." The help that would've come this man's way would have been the faith that Jesus imparts 'to those who believe'. That would equal 'faith which comes from God. So the man who stated that he believed, had simple starter faith, waiting to be filled with the Faith of God!
Jesus said if you have faith the size of a grain of mustard you can say to that mountain, "Be thou removed." That mustard seed sized faith is simple belief. It is not the faith of God, the mustard seed faith. It is simple belief, the capacity of every single human being, given, no less, to us of God, but not the faith 'of' God. That is what is known as "Faith IN," God, as opposed to the "Faith OF" God, which is differentiated one from another in the KJV, and not so in others.
And what happens when we have simple belief? God's faith fills it. That is why we can say to the mountain to be removed. It is a partnership with God which starts with simple belief. And:
- 1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Moreover, faith is how we know Jesus. We only know Him by faith. "We walk by faith, and not by sight." But we first 'believed', then He provided the 'faith' that we know Him by, and which is understood that we are saved by. So by faith we know Him, and "Faith is the 'substance' of the thing not seen!" So there is the substance of 'knowing Him', faith which is of God. But HE met our 'belief'>
I will tell you that the "Fields are white for harvest. Pray the Lord of the Harvest that He will send laborers into the harvest." Will they who are white for the harvest be automatically saved anyway, even if the laborer doesn't get to all of those who are white for the harvest? Isn't is sad to consider, but I don't suppose that they will be.
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Dave,
I do want to work with you and try to understand what you teach. Ok, let me get this straight. A core belief of yours is that man is unable to choose good because of his sin nature; therefore, a man must be born-again in order to be saved from this condition, thus enabled to choose good.......right?
I certainly agree with you that God is the initiator of all things. If a man turns to God, it is because God had first drawn him. It seems, at least to me, that its not the elements apparent in salvation/sanctification that are disagreed upon, but in the sequence of events, or the mechanics of some of the elements.
If I understand you correctly you are teaching that a man is born-again(transformed by the Holy Spirit, set apart for God's purpose) even before he has turned to God of his own will. Now I agree that man is predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus, according to Gods forknowledge and predeterminate counsel, but I do not believe that the onset of the transformation occurs until after we have turned to God and His will.
I do not think I can agree with your apparent application of the word "draw" in the context of Jesus' words. Where you see "draw" as an "isolated event" , I see "draw" as a "series of manifestations" of God over an extended period of time (for ex: In the OT--the faithful and loving character of God demonstrated in His relationship with Israel as well as the OT prophecy of the messiah to come, and in the NT the witness of God with all miracles, signs, and wonders attesting to the truth of the life and words of Jesus.
I noticed that you have used Paul's testimony in an attempt to prove your position that men are born-again first before repentance and faith. Is it true that all who God calls are called as leaders, as was Paul? Cmon, is it the norm for individuals to be called in the same manner as Paul was? Notably, one would have to question the need for the Holy Spirits prompting of Paul to be baptized in the Name of Jesus if Paul was already born-again.
My disagreement with you lies in this core belief of mine......that man has been given the ability to choose a course of action (for ex: to turn to God or ignore God) as his conscience has been pricked by the Word of God/love of the truth. I believe that God gives us all the reasons to turn to Him, but does not over-rule the will of man. This reasoning would reflect in the passage about God being patient that all men would come to repentance.
Is it beyond you that God's foreknowledge could very well play a role in His predetermined councel? You seem to make it appear (knowingly or not) that God's grace is only for a few. That, I believe, is dangerous. Are you also a proponent of the "limited atonement" might I ask?
I believe that many of the teachings of Jesus (including the parable of the sower) reveal to us that many will not remain committed to Him and His cause, even though their initial faith was real. This truth reflects in Jesus' words....."If ye continue in my word, ye are my disciples indeed" and "He that endures to the end shall be saved".
In conclusion, I propose that if we were to combine the teachings of Jesus with the teachings of Paul that we could safely conclude that .......................
Faith is a gift, but a gift that must be properly cultivated in the heart of man.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Dave B.
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posted
Hi Michael,
The plain teaching of the Bible says faith is a gift from God. The term "simple belief" is not in itself found in the Bible, but is an expression of the faith that comes from God. There are not two different kinds of belief, with respect to salvation. Saving faith comes from God.
Since Adam and Eve, man has always used his "free will" to choose sin. This is because the Bible teaches that since the fall, man is dead in trespasses and sins, and at enmity with God.
Thus in order to be saved, God must act to transform those He has decided to save, by means of faith and by the hearing of the word.
We can insist otherwise all we want. To do so will require ignoring vast sections of scripture, particularly those dealing with predestination and election, words that are found in the Bible with respect to salvation. These terms must be faced.
Well it's not a good idea to review all of the verses again. It's interesting though that the verse you recently quoted:
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
..also states that God chose people to be heirs of the kingdom and to be rich in faith (which as we see in Ephesians, is His gift to them). Again, we see God's sovereign choosing of people for eternal life, giving them the faith to believe. As in John 1:13 - who were born not of human decision...etc...but of the will of God.
Again I welcome all of your feedback. I will wait until tomorrow to make any more responses, as it is getting late.
May you all have a good evening.
In Christ,
Dave B.
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