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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Lookie here dear sister:


http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005613

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Oh, I never noticed that post!

Mind if I 'ressurect' it?

 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Hi Zeena

Well, this is sweetdreams' topic, so it's up to her.

I agree with Betty Louise, the issue should be settled. But, it isn't. I believe that once we are saved we are His forever, to love and obey Him.

That link leads to a topic that goes on for nine pages, and it is only one of several debates on the "Once Saved Always Saved" issue.

Here is another link:

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=005531#000000

I don't want to discourage more discussion, but if you look at these links you'll see the debates get pretty emotional sometimes.
 

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Posted by Dave B. (Member # 6710) on :
 
Hi Everyone,

This is a great question. The answer is, no. There is no possibility of a saved person losing their salvation. This is chiefly because of what salvation is. Salvation is an act of God, where He regenerates a dead nature. God does this is His own time, to the people whom he has elected to save before the world began. Thus, once God has changed the sinner into a believer, it cannot be undone.

So if you are a believer, then u have eternal life, you are a new creature in Christ. The reigning power of sin has been broken. You are living a transformed life, marked by repentance, prayer and faith. You are awaiting the final coming of Christ, where God will deal with the very presence of sin, creating a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness dwells.

It is clear a lot of problems with this "losing salvation" debate comes as a result of a misunderstanding as to what salvation is.

More later. Have a nice weekend all! God bless you.

Dave B.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Brother! To say that salvation is an act of God seems to undervalue it. Salvation is a person, and when we are saved, we choose to have a relationship with that Person. An act is involved in coming into that relationship. That act requires our participation. It ever, in this life, requires our participation, else we could just get 'saved' and live like the devil, because we 'got it'. And some people do think that way. (Got Milk?)

I believe Jesus addresses this. He makes it clear. It always requires our participation in this life, otherwise, it doesn't materalize on the other side because HE is going to ask, "Why didn't you participate?" He will then address the parable of the talents where the guy 'didn't participate', who not only got nothing in return on the investment made in him, though he had been invited to participate, but had to give what he had to those who did participate.

If one doesn't finish the race, he is not a participant. One is not a participant just because he started. That is, if the others carry on, but he decides to go up into the stands and party with the onlookers, when the checkered flag falls, and his number doesn't appear at the close of the race, he is considered, wrecked, unable to finish.

IF he dies while he is still racing, he is saved. But if he quits the race to party, duh!!!

"Friendship with the world is to be an enemy of God." James 4:4

"If one denies Christ before men, He will deny them before the Father."

More accurately, salvation is not an act. It involves an act. Salvation is a person who saves, which is different from salvation being some-thing, that people have, as though it were some entry into a book which Peter at the pearly gates will look at to see if one is listed there.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who [fn2] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
The reason why that passage says not to grieve the Holy Spirit, by whom you are sealed unto the day of redemption, is because you don't want to run Him off. For HE is the 'earnest' of our inheritance (guarantee is not the right translation here). Earnest means like, down payment, or token of affirmation. But the guarantee is only good if we 'participate' until the redemption of the purchased possesion. This is exactly why the passage says not to grieve the 'earnest' of the purchased possesion. And that is said for the reason that some will take for granted this wonderful gift, and will grieve the Spirit by being friends with the world.

So to be redundant, it was needing to be said not to grieve away the Spirit, by being foolish to insure that no one would mess up a good thing, and assume something that they shouldn't.
 

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Posted by in him (Member # 7110) on :
 
gezzzzzzzzzzzzzz why does everybody make this a big issue . if you are livening for jesus walking in the light as he is light the BLOOD cleans up our sins!problem is when folks try to use eternal security--once in grace always in grace as a crutch to say. i can live how i want after i am saved IS NOT BIBLE NOR TRUE SALVATION. i don't go to bed wake up wonder am i still saved. i am secured in Christ-anchored in Jehovah standing upon the rock . and every day i try to build my Christian walk upon the the solid foundation --the LORD JESUS CHRIST stop worrying can you or you cant just live for CHRIST
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
I was raised in the Assembly of God Church. We were not taught salvation security. The problem was as kids and teenagers we got "saved" every revival and Church camp. There is a peace comes in knowing that our salvation does not rest on our shoulders but Jesus. As Paul says, our freedom does not give us permission to live in sin. On the contrary knowing we were bought with such a high price, we should run from sin.
betty
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Betty Louise, I here ya! Same here. But when i think about those kids you mentioned being "saved" at every revival or church camp they attended I believe maybe it was just more of a rededication to the Lord.

And i think that is great, cause as kids, they could have been somewhere else instead of hearing about the Lord at the revivals and church camp.
 

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Posted by in him (Member # 7110) on :
 
i use to do youth ministry i have seen several come to the LORD on their own. stay going strong for months poof banish out of sight- my question is did they really get salvation? only them and GOD know. i am general bapticostal i dont teach the eternal security doctrine like the missionary baptist doe. but there is security in jesus. i preach a KNOW SO SALVATION. at our church we have a banner thats say if your %99 saved your %100 lost
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
we were kids that never left the Church, but were convinced that any bad thought or deed could cost you, your salvation. But you are right, you should never discourage someone from accepting Jesus no matter how many times they do. Only God knows what is in the heart.
betty
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

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Betty Louise, I here ya! Same here. But when i think about those kids you mentioned being "saved" at every revival or church camp they attended I believe maybe it was just more of a rededication to the Lord.

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we were kids that never left the Church, but were convinced that any bad thought or deed could cost you, your salvation. But you are right, you should never discourage someone from accepting Jesus no matter how many times they do. Only God knows what is in the heart.
betty

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• Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

• Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

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Originally posted by in him:
yesssssssssssssssss thats it it's in him john 14 abide in me

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And that is the only Way to be at peace and have the joy of the Lord.

A born again Christian will never really be content until they see Jesus, Living in and through THEM!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Somehow, I am not getting my self across well. I was not talking about people who were unsaved. I was talking about saved kids who thought that if you said a bad word you lost your salvation. When you have teenagers and kids who think that a wrong thought required you to get saved again, there was no peace in our hearts about salvation. We lived week to week wondering if we did something wrong we did not know about and we were going to hell.
There is a peace that comes from knowing that God is holding you in his hands and he is not going to drop you because the devil puts an evil though in your mind. I am still confused about this subject of OSAS, but I believe that God who saved us is strong enough to keep us.
betty
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I thought yahsey did a good job answering this? Anyway, who made you to think you were unsaved if you had a bad thought? I think all of us go through this: Most anyway! But well meaning people, like parents, not knowing how something will be received, say things out of concern for the soul that they may keep their kids. Thank God HE is greater than all of us, and greater than our confusion.

However, salvation is about the gift. And the devil, wanting to confuse things, maybe coached your parents to say what they said hoping it would guide you by doing exactly what it did, putting fear into you. And we know that fear hath torment.

But parents are not likely to say, if one trusts Him not to let go of them, He will not, even thought they may want to experiment. Yet there may be some trying crossroads ahead for that one that they wouldn't have to experience if they were ready for easy surrender. And surrender means simply to be ready for the gift. And oh that God's people would surrender!!!

Maybe making someone feel bad by telling them that something bad is going to happen to them is not entirely the right way to do it. On the other hand, it is the only thing that some people will respond to. Yet, telling them to surrender to the 'gift' (the fullness of salvation that comes with the joy of the Lord) almost says to some, to go ahead and plunge into the darkness, because they are not being told rebukefully, to straighten up. Needless to say, some will wake up when they bump their head (in the darkness), if they don't bump it too hard. All one can do who is concerned about someone who embraces the darkness, is to count on Jesus, knowing what He will do (even if they don't know how).

If you trust Him, HE knows your weakness, and He isn't waiting for you to exploit it so that He can smash, and scold you. He has you tethered, and as long as you don't break the tether, when it is time, He will leave the ninety and nine to find you. Let's face it, many of us have to experience the hard knocks of the world before we will welcome His refreshing. But HE does warn us of the danger! It is with us all. It is everpresent. So what can we say to Him if we ignore it to do our own thing? I suspect that was what your parents were after.
 

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Posted by in him (Member # 7110) on :
 

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omehow, I am not getting my self across well. I was not talking about people who were unsaved. I was talking about saved kids who thought that if you said a bad word you lost your salvation. When you have teenagers and kids who think that a wrong thought required you to get saved again, there was no peace in our hearts about salvation. We lived week to week wondering if we did something wrong we did not know about and we were going to hell.
There is a peace that comes from knowing that God is holding you in his hands and he is not going to drop you because the devil puts an evil though in your mind. I am still confused about this subject of OSAS, but I believe that God who saved us is strong enough to keep us.
betty

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BETTY that hit the nail on the head HE is able to keep us the true eternal security teaching is very simple---problem is the church has added on to it! from what your saying you been a christian for a while so that means your salvation is secured in CHRIST if you want to be a christian stay faithfull he gave us the power to do so! to many people use once in grace always in grace as a crutch
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
The message is that there is a place in Him to discover 'that we should not overlook in favor of' any desire to court errant behavior. I mean, does scripture actually say that anywhere, or just 'everywhere'? Or does scripture say that it is ok to court errant behavior because everything will just come out right. Kan that kind of thinking be found acceptable, really?

He gives us the power to seek Him. (Not that we loved Him, but that He loved us first.) Otherwise we would all be lost. But if HE gives us the power to seek, should we neglect it in order to court error, as though it is harmless? I mean, what would be the result? So it isn't that we won't find ourselves slipping towards things that would consume us for the entertaining thereof, 'but' that HE announces through scripture that He is our provision, that we may be able to find ourselves 'recovered' from the things that we would 'slip' into entertaining.

So therefore, do we ignore the power He gives us to seek Him, and distain those who sound as though they are cracking a whip when they do nothing more than voice the wisdom of scripture? If we do, it is because we are guilty of loving the darkness, and just don't want anyone to interfere. But! Do we not encourage others to follow error, whether we mean to or not. So we have clear passages to address this for the health of the whole, such as:

• Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
• Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
• Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

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Michael:
So when someone says that you are going to 'lose your salvation', it is clear that you are losing something, which the one may later wish that they had been more attentive to, not to have ignored the pending results.

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Me!

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....not to have ignored the pending results. For scripture says to "Lay up treasure in Heaven," which courting error does not accomplish, never minding whether one loses their salvation.

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

"They!" Whoever 'they' are.

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Me!

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....not to have ignored the pending results. For scripture says to "Lay up treasure in Heaven," which courting error does not accomplish, never minding whether one loses their salvation.

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Therefore should we take slothfulness for granted as being ok, and insist that no one mention doing anything about it, or rebuke someonw for mentioning it?

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quote:

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If You Believe You Can Lose Your Salvation…
It Is Possible You May Have Missed Calvary

by AvBunyon

There is much talk today about losing salvation. The issue is not that can one lose his salvation but the truth of the matter is the real issue is they don’t know what really happened at Calvary. These people don’t understand at all the doctrine of salvation.

The heart of the matter is how is the sinner brought back into the proper standing so that he can have fellowship with God. To put it more simply, how is a man saved today. Man’s dilemma is how can he become righteous before God. In order for the sinner to spend eternity with God he must be holy before God (Heb. 12:14; Hab. 1:13). The sinner has to be reconciled and justified before God in order to spend eternity with God.

Part I.

Let’s first look at the condition of the unsaved man. He is lost (II Cor. 4:3), having no hope (Eph. 2:12), separated (Isa. 59:2), unregenerate (Titus 3:5), darkened Eph. 4:18, unprofitable (Rom. 3:12), and under the wrath of God (John 3:36), and in the flesh Rom. 8:8. He is stuck in the mud big time. A dead man cannot pull himself up out of the miry muck for he is dead!

Part II.

Without going into all the doctrine of salvation let’s just look at what God did to the sinner. There were several things that God did to bring the sinner into the family of God. By a supernatural work of God the sinner was reconciled to God (Rom. 5:10), made righteous (Rom. 3:22), justified (Rom. 3:24), and redeemed (Gal. 3:13). Then as a result some more things happened: the saint was sealed (Eph. 2:6), seated (Eph. 2:6), saved Eph. 2:8, adopted (Eph. 1:5), quickened (Eph. 2:5), circumcised (Col. 2: 11), raised up (Eph. 2:6), forgiven (Col. 1:14), blessed (Eph. 1:3), accepted (Eph. 1:6), sanctified (Col. 1:30), put into the body of Christ and made to be bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Eph. 5:30) and glorified (Rom. 8:30). This is quite a work, I might say.

Now the above fourteen things (and probably more) happened instantaneously when God saved the sinner. So, the people who say they can lose their salvation are saying that they or God can or will undo all of Part II and go back to Part I. Now let’s see how one can lose their salvation. When we talk of one losing their salvation we are talking about the person in Part II. We are talking about the one who lived after Calvary and before the Tribulation period who had at least 14 different miraculous things done to him regarding his salvation. Instead of listing all the verses you have used in the past I will just list where they are found. When we talk about one losing his salvation we are not directing it to:

1. Jews or Gentiles under the Old Testament Law before Calvary (Gen. - Mal.).

2. Jews and Gentile during the gospels, which basically fall into the first category of being before Calvary (Gospels).

3. Unbelieving Jews Paul was directing Hebrews 3 and 5 to (Hebrews).

4. The 12 tribes scattered abroad in James, which doctrinally deals with the tribulation period (Hebrews thru Revelation).

5. Unbelieving Jew or Gentile during the Tribulation period – primarily the book of Revelation.

Most of the verses you use to try and prove a saint can lose his salvation in this age of grace are found in the above books to in Paul’s epistles (except Hebrews of Paul wrote Hebrews).

The person we want you to show to us that can lose their salvation is that blood-bought redeemed sinner after Calvary where Christ died for their sins.

Let’s look at this – we have a sinner saved by grace today and falls into the Part II category (redeemed, saved, regenerated, sealed, etc.). At some point in his life he loses his salvation based upon some mysterious way that you have conjured up (whatever that may be). I am assuming at that point he becomes unreconciled, made unrighteous, unjustified, unredeemed. Then as a result of his “unpardonable sin” or whatever criteria you have dreamed up for one to lose his salvation he becomes unsealed, unseated, unsaved, unadopted, unquickened, uncircumcised, unraised, unforgiven, unblessed, unaccepted, unsanctified, unglorified again, and finally, kicked out of Christ’s physical body! In other words this saint loses his salvation by doing something or a bunch of things??? And then all that God did for him (Part II) gets undone! The poor ex-saint is back to Part I again!

Let’s carry this further – now the poor, lost, ex-saint gets saved again!!! Now God reapplies all of Part II and all is ok – but then he blows it again and all is undone again and he is back to Part I!!! And then he repents and he’s back to Part II! Does anyone see how ridiculous this is getting? If you can give me one example of this happening in the scriptures I might listen. I know you will say that once he loses it he can never get it back again – yes, real neat system you have there. (the system of of receiving initial salvation once then losing it so that it can never be received again is lame pride of self- Troy).

The problem (or blessing) is this – the sinner was reconciled by the DEATH OF CHRIST. The sinner was JUSTIFIED BY THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST and made RIGHTEOUS and SEALED UNTIL the DAY OF REDEMPTION – DONE FOREVER and nothing you can do can undo that!

Now, you can show me where a man before Calvary does not have this blessing and that a man in the tribulation does not have this blessing but you can’t show me in Paul’s epistles during this age of grace after Calvary that a man can fall out of what God put him into today!

If you still think you can lose your salvation then you are doing something to lose your salvation and you are not trusting Christ to keep you. You say, “I believed on Christ and he will do his part but I have to do my part or keep from doing something that will cause me to fall away.” Then if that is the case then you are still trusting yourself to endure to the end so in reality you are not trusting Christ at all you are counting on you to hold out till the end, which is, works salvation, which is a sure ticket to hell.

Instead of trying to prove you can lose it why not spend some time seeing what really took place at Calvary and then you would not be spending time trying to show people you can lose it.

May God bless.

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Originally posted by Mizpa:
Zenna,

I don't understand the multitude of words you post.

Cant you make it more simpler. Im a joe 6 pack sinner.


I don't have the luxury of putting time aside for study. I know I should.But I will try because you seam to try so much. Also please don't forget about the Nee post. You seam so on top of things but yet , like I said What do those people at the Watchman have to say?

Bless you that you have the time to look into these things.

Me, I got to go now. But I am looking forward to your report back from Those that would make so many of you off balance and angry with one another.

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Originally posted by Mizpa:
Zenna,

I don't understand the multitude of words you post.

Cant you make it more simpler. Im a joe 6 pack sinner.

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If you have reached out to Jesus to save you in faith, BELIEVE that He is able, and WILL DO IT!

If you have, you are longer longer a sinner but a SAINT who sometimes sins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GIPh6gkMuI

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I don't have the luxury of putting time aside for study.

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The above you tube link is a seven minute video, crank up the volume and do some dishes!

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I know I should.

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It's only by our Fathers Grace that we accomplish ANYTHING!

You are where He has placed you, and there ain't no shame in that!

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But I will try because you seam to try so much.

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You don't have to try, just trust Him, and He will make Himself real to you and through you right back to God our Father!

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Also please don't forget about the Nee post.

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I cannot forget, for the Love of Christ constrains me!

Romans 14:16-17
Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

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You seam so on top of things but yet , like I said What do those people at the Watchman have to say?

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Bless you that you have the time to look into these things.

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God bless you too!

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Me, I got to go now. But I am looking forward to your report back from Those that would make so many of you off balance and angry with one another.

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I look forward to seeeing you again!

Go in Peace!
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

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YOU WILL FIND

I don't direct you to a Nee but Christ.

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Hummmm! Evidently there is a difference between posting Cornelius Stam (whom I apprecate, don't get me wrong), and posting Watchman Nee, who says the same things!!! So woldB's posts are superior because he chose them! By the way, is posting Cornelius the same as directing someone to Christ? I mean, how would that be different from posting Nee to direct someone to Christ? And for that matter, what if someone posts Paul - to direct someone to Christ? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is in the heart of the believer. Or not!
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Joe sixpack sinner: but aren't we all? Drink deep my friend, for truth is at hand!
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Joe sixpack sinner: but aren't we all?

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I don't have the luxury of putting time aside for study.

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I believe once saved we are eternally secure. Those who believe salvation can be lost argue that salvation can be lost when we turn our back on God. Is this possible? Or do we actually loose sanctification?

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Originally posted by Eden:
But in the case of a person who WAS a believer but now no longer believes

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Identifying the Unpardonable Sin
By John Woodward
February 3, 2005
"Identifying the Unpardonable Sin"

One of the most important incentives for your spiritual growth and fellowship with God is the assurance of salvation (1 John 5:13). If you are not confident that your name is written in the Book of Life, how can you be secure in depending on Christ moment by moment here and now?

However, one of the issues that has often been a source of confusion and insecurity is that of "the unpardonable sin." What did Jesus mean by that frightening, solemn warning in Matthew 12:31,32? "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

The author of Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan, journalized his struggle to gain assurance. This topic had troubled him also: "I had one question that my soul did much desire to be resolved about; and that was, Whether it be possible for any soul that hath indeed sinned the unpardonable sin, yet after that to receive though but the least true spiritual comfort from God through Christ? The which, after I had much considered, I found the answer was, No, they could not, ... Because they are denied a share in the promise of life; they shall never be forgiven, 'neither in this world, neither in that which is to come' (Matt. 12.32)."[1]

Let's examine this passage in context to clarify the original warning and consider implications for us today. What is the unpardonable sin?

The Miracle with a Message

Matthew 12:22 records this undeniable miracle of the Lord Jesus: "Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw." The usual practice for an exorcism was to elicit from the demon possessed person the name of the indwelling demon. However, how could this formula be used when the afflicted person was mute? The promised Messiah was expected to have this kind of unique power and authority. No wonder the witnesses of this deliverance "were amazed and said, 'Could this be the Son of David?'" (Matt. 12:23).

This conclusion was inescapable to the honest, receptive child of Abraham. But how could the Pharisees retain their legalistic traditions and prominence when Jesus was authenticating His ministry in this powerful way? They came up with this desperate rationalization: "...they said, 'This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons'" (Matt. 12:24).

Notice that the miracle was undeniable, but its message was rejected. Their declaration of stubborn unbelief collapsed under the weight of its inherent contradictions: 1) Satan casting out his own demons would defeat his own cause by dividing his evil kingdom; 2) Jewish exorcists claimed a success rate in exorcisms, yet they were not accused of operating by Satanic power; 3) Christ's miracle of casting a demon out of a mute, blind man was a convincing evidence that the Kingdom of God had visited them--in the person of the King (Matt. 12:25-28).

This is the context of Christ's ominous verdict that the hardened hearts of the religious leaders were beyond the scope of God's forgiveness. Why? Because the Holy Spirit was the source of Christ's miracles (Cf. Luke 4:18; John 3:34) and He empowered these signs to confirm the faith of the receptive. The Holy Spirit is the One who draws sinners to the Savior: "... no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3). Yet they cursed Jesus by claiming that these miracles were Satanic; this unbelief rejected the implications of Christ's authority over the kingdom of darkness.[2]

To blaspheme (blatantly disrespect) the Holy Spirit is to reject the only One who can enable a sinner to repent, believe, and be pardoned.[3]

The Warning for Today

Some propose that this warning about the unpardonable sin doesn't apply after Christ's earthly ministry. After all, Christ is not physically present, doing such miracles as He did in the Gospels. Therefore, the exact circumstances of the unpardonable sin would not be duplicated in this age.

However, the Holy Spirit continues to testify of the person and work of Christ today. In John 16:6-11 Jesus prophesied, "I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

The miracles of Christ still speak loudly and clearly from the pages of sacred Scripture. Their purpose is clearly stated: "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

So what is the fate of those who reject the convicting work of the Holy Spirit as He testifies through creation, conscience, and Christ? (Rom. 1:16-20;2:14-16;5:8). Today, as in the first century, those who die disbelieving the witness of God's Spirit through the gospel commit the unpardonable sin.

There will only be two outcomes on the Day of Judgment; to stand in one's own unrighteousness and be condemned, or to stand in Christ's righteousness, having been pardoned. This pardon is only by grace through repentance and faith. "He who believes in Him [Christ] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18; Cf. Matt.25:31-46, Phil. 3:7-9).

An Implicit Consolation

To those who know Christ as their Lord and Savior, Christ's warning has an implicit consolation. All other sins are pardonable! Think of it, no sins are too wicked to be washed away by the precious blood of Christ! (1 Pet. 1:18-20).

Everyone who has heeded the witness of the Holy Spirit's testimony in the gospel has full forgiveness and the basis for unshakable assurance: "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Col. 2:13,14).

As the man who was delivered from the demon received his voice and vision, let us who believe the witness of the Spirit of God behold His wonders and declare His praise.

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[1] John Bunyan (1628-1688), Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners, par. 220, 221.

[2] " ... Once arrived at the conclusion, that the miracles which Christ did were due to the power of Satan, and that He was the representative of the Evil One, their [the leading Pharisees and Sadducees] course was rationally and morally chosen. To regard every fresh manifestation of Christ's Power as only a fuller development of the power of Satan, and to oppose it with increasing determination and hostility, even to the Cross: such was henceforth the natural progress of this history. On the other hand, such a course once fully settled upon, there would, and could, be no further reasoning with, or against it ..." - Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. [Following the text at footnote 2766. Edersheim (1825-1889) was a Jewish believer, preacher, scholar, and author. These two sources are available at CCEL.org.]

[3] Only God knows when a heart is closed beyond reach. Such would seem to have been the case with Saul of Tarsus, but the risen Christ apprehended him and made Paul an unparalleled vessel of His grace (Acts 9; Gal. 1:13-17). So let's never give up praying for the lost.

Grace Notes: February 3, 2005. Copyright 2005 by John Woodward. Permission is granted to reprint this article for non-commercial use. Scripture quotations (unless indicated otherwise) are from The Holy Bible, New King James Version © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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Good catch!
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Zeena,
thank you. It worries when I see people buy into that lie. I have talked to several people who are convinced that lie is true, but this is not what Jesus taught.
Have a blessed night.
betty
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Zeena, thank you. It worries when I see people buy into that lie. I have talked to several people who are convinced that lie is true, but this is not what Jesus taught.
Have a blessed night.
betty

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quote:

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Originally posted by chosenone:
It's no use quoting scripture that was to the Jews, they where under the "law", their entrance to the "kingdom" was obedience to the law. We gentiles where not even near God in that era,

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Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So then, when the Prophets spoke of old concerning the promise to come to us by Grace through faith in Jesus the Christ, these are null and void?

Will you pick and chose which Scripture you believe is for you? Or will the Holy Spirit discern?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
chosenone




Question / Comment: Everyone will be saved and go to Heaven!

I would like you to explain Roman's 5:18 -19 'Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.'

And 2 Cor 5:18-21 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.'

Surely Christ has redeemed the whole world and coming into the revelation of this fact will indeed save our soul's..

According to these passage's, I think that they speak for themselves. I do believe that all will go to heaven. The reason why I believe this is that I believe that God The Father and the son made covenant to redeem the entire world. But that it was made to embrace the whole world. I believe that it was through Christ's faith and obedience that we all have received eternal life. Our faith only embrace's the fact that Christ did this for us all.

FOR GOD HATH CONCLUDED THEM "ALL" IN UNBELIEF, THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON "ALL". Romans 11:32
If we just simply read the verses that follow the above statement made by Paul (33-36) we will notice that those of us who are caught up in the "having to believe to be saved" are pretty much trying to decide for God who will make it and who won't. Yet we see that Paul states... "For who has known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counselor?" Evangelical Christianity and other religions along with them - who base their relationship with God on their performance - are the ones who seem to continue to know the mind of God and be His counselor. When someone takes the position that "believing" is what determines who is saved and who isn't, they are pretty much saying that they have figured out the "depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! and have reached the point of understanding God's judgments, and have found out about His ways". If we just simply look to Christ and realize that it was "For Him, and through Him, and to Him, are "ALL" things; to who be glory forever", that God DECIDED to save the entire world, we wouldn't have the mess that we have in our religious institutions today. The fact is that none of us have ever been able to tell God who gets in and who is out. The covenant was made between God the Father and God the Son and man was left totally out of the picture. When Adam fell, everyone fell and God did not ask anyone for permission to conclude all in unbelief, just as He did not ask anyone’s permission to conclude "ALL" under mercy. God's love is not like ours. He made the decision of choosing to save "ALL" in spite of us "ALL". So it can be said that God did not give anyone the choice to be saved. He violated their so called "Free Will" by declaring everyone guilty so that He might be the justifier of "ALL". As long as the heart is not established in Grace, we will always have the tendency as human beings in taking things out of context and seeing salvation in light of performance and earning it by good works.

Grace and Peace.


Reply:

Hi, thanks for the question and your comments.

It is fair to say that we see things quite differently. In fact, I would be surprised if even you believe some of what you have written above. I don't mean to be rude or offensive in saying this, but let me explain what I mean. You use Romans 11:33-36 to basically say that we cannot know God's mind or who it is that will be saved. So even though God's word tells us over and over that salvation is available to those that believe in the person and work of the Lord Jesus on our behalf, you undermine such faith in the word of God by saying that we can't know the mind of the Lord. And yet, you have no problem in quoting verses that you believe support your position of universal salvation , so you obviously do believe that we can know the mind of the Lord in these matters because of what the Bible teaches. Hence, you don't really believe what you have written above.

Of course we can know the mind of God in these matters! Christians are His ambassadors, with a message from God. (2 Cor 5:20). We are not to be wishy-washy on what that message is or simply say that we don't really know what God thinks on something as important as salvation! While the things of God are hidden from the natural man, we have the word of God, Christians have the Spirit of God, and through these we 'have the mind of Christ' as Paul writes. (See 1 Cor 2:10-16).

You write "When someone takes the position that "believing" is what determines who is saved and who isn't, they are pretty much saying that they have figured out the "depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! and have reached the point of understanding God's judgments, and have found out about His ways".

No, a person who takes the position that "believing" is what determines who is saved and who isn't, is simply expressing their faith in both the word of God and the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles. It isn't complicated... it is quite simple.

As Jesus said in John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” Again, it isn't complicated. The whole basis of the great commission that Jesus gave to the Church is based on this very principle... the whole reason that Jesus told us to go into the entire world and preach is so that people will believe and be saved, and not perish. Listen again to the words of Jesus, spoken after His resurrection, in all their glorious SIMPLICITY - 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' (Mark 16:15-16)

Nor is salvation (if it is a true faith) 'a performance and earning it by good works' although some 'Christian cults' and other religions may wrongly view it this way. To place your faith in the Lord Jesus for salvation is the total opposite of trusting in yourself and your own good works or ability.

As the Apostle Paul says in Romans 4:3-5 'What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.'

As for answering your query concerning Romans 5:18 , the old saying applies here - 'Take a text out of context, and you are left with a con!' The whole book of Romans testifies to the fact that salvation is available to those who believe and have faith, and that those who reject God and salvation will perish. It certainly doesn't teach that salvation is just given to everyone whether they believe in Jesus or not, or desire salvation or not. For example some of these verses leading up to 5:18 include Rom 1:16-17, 18-32 (which shows that the wrath of God abides on those that reject the truth), 2:5-12 (the unrepentant are storing up wrath for themselves and will 'perish'), 3:22, 26-28 (justification and salvation is available through faith... to those that 'believe'), 4:1-8 (again, as both Abraham and David found, God credits 'righteousness' to those who have faith), 5:1 (justification is by faith), 17 (and this gift of righteousness is available to all because of what Jesus did, but it needs to be received). Later on, Paul returns to this topic and again shows that faith and belief are essential to salvation. See Rom 10:1-11.

William MacDonald, author of the Believers Bible Commentary writes well concerning Romans 5:18 when he says "The two 'alls' in this verse do not refer to the same people. The first 'all' means all who are in Adam. The second all means all who are in Christ. This is clear from the preceding verse "those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness..." The gift must be received by faith. Only those who trust the Lord receive justification of life."

It seems to me that you are focusing on the gift of salvation that is available to the entire world, (which is correct) and totally overlooking the need on man's behalf to accept and receive that gift through faith. Though Jesus has paid for the sins of the entire world, it is still true, as Jesus Himself to one unbeliever, that 'you shall die in your sins: for except you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins.' (John 8:24). Or, to use another analogy that Jesus Himself used concerning salvation -
'Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.' I'm sure you know the story... Those in Israel that had been bitten by the poisonous snake simply had to look to the bronze snake upon the pole to be healed and live. If they looked, they lived. If they didn't look, they perished. Jesus used this analogy because the same is true for the human race spiritually. If we look to Jesus in simple faith, we live. If we don't, we perish.

So, the bottom line is that there is a Heaven, and there is a Hell. To believe that everyone just ends up in Heaven no matter what may be a nice thought for a person to hang onto but it is a blind assumption not based on the word of God. Jesus, previewing and speaking of the judgment of mankind at the end of the age said -
'“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt 25:41-46) In no passage concerning the judgment to come is there any thought whatsoever of 'some' covenant made between the Father and the Son to save ALL mankind, irrespective of their faith, their life, and their will. There is only eternal life to the righteous and eternal punishment to the unrighteous.

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books... The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' Rev 20:11-15


I do hope so this helps. I have not written anything to purposefully offend you but the truth about salvation is obviously important! We all have a responsibility to accurately declare the mind of God as revealed in His word.

All the best. May God bless.

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/universalsalvation.htm
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi Zeena.

Re. Matthew 12:32 ASV
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

The correct translation for Matt.12:32:
And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

There are many versions of scripture that misinterpert the greek word "aion" as everlasting, eternal, world without end, and others. the correct translation of aion in English is "eon". It is a period of time, never meaning "endless". The closest word is "age".

This error in scripture interpetation is widely used in many versions.

Blessings, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
ChossenOne,
Hell does exist and there will be billions of souls there. I hope for your sake that you are not teaching your beliefs to others, because their blood will be on you hands.
betty


Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Jerry


John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10 (KJV) 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19 - 21 (KJV) 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Matthew 10:28 (KJV) 28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi Zeena.

Re. Matthew 12:32 ASV
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

The correct translation for Matt.12:32:
And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

There are many versions of scripture that misinterpert the greek word "aion" as everlasting, eternal, world without end, and others. the correct translation of aion in English is "eon". It is a period of time, never meaning "endless". The closest word is "age".

This error in scripture interpetation is widely used in many versions.

Blessings, Jerry.

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What do you do with the Prophetic Word?

Jeremiah 6:14
They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Ezekiel 13:9-11
And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Isaiah 48:22
There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Jerry


At the conclusion of the millennial reign of Christ unbelievers of all time will be raised and judged. Their resurrection is the resurrection of judgment spoken of by the Lord in John 5:29. Their judgment will take place before a Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15). Their Judge is the Lord Christ (see John 5:22, 27).

Those judged are simply called “the dead”—unbelievers (in contrast to “the dead in Christ” which refers to believers). This judgment will not separate believers from unbelievers, for all who will experience it will have made the choice during their lifetimes to reject God. The Book of Life which will be opened at the Great White Throne judgment will not contain the name of anyone who will be in that judgment. The books of works which will also be opened will prove that all who are being judged deserve eternal condemnation (and may be used to determine degrees of punishment). It is not that all their works were evil, but all were dead works, done by spiritually dead people. It is as if the Judge will say, “I will show you by the record of your own deeds that you deserve condemnation.” So everyone who will appear in this judgment will be cast into the lake of fire forever.

(Basic Theology)
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Salvation of an unbeliever.

The apostle Paul’s case is of surpassing significance in its bearing on the salvation of unbelievers. He was the foremost of sinners, and it cannot be denied that, among men, there was no case quite as desperate as his. All question as to God’s ability to save vanishes in the light of his call on the Damascus road. The miraculous means employed in his case surely would suffice for every one of God’s enemies. And who will deny, on sober reflection, that the appalling power and glory of the august judgment session into which the unbeliever is ushered by his resurrection will be unutterably more impressive?
The apostle’s vision passed. He came back to a scene where all was as before. He alone had changed. But the unbeliever sees the power and presence of God not only in his own deliverance from death, but in all around him. The vision does not vanish. The divine presence abides.


Blessings, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
If when Paul experienced his vision on the road, he had rejected Christ, he would be in hell. Everyone has to choose for themselves. The Bible tells us to choose this day who we will served. We either serve Jesus or we serve the devil. Jesus died to save sinners, but He gives us freedom to chose or reject salvation. Those who reject salvation will be lost and go to hell.


Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus knocks on the door but He will not knock the door down and force us to accept salvation.
betty
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
"But the unbeliever sees the power and presence of God not only in his own deliverance from death, but in all around him."

2 Corinthians 2:14-16
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
ETERNAL LIFE (Heaven, Resurrection, Salvation)

What are the characteristics of eternal life?

BIBLE READING: Isaiah 32:1-20

KEY BIBLE VERSE: The fruit of righteousness will be peace; the effect of righteousness will be quietness and confidence forever. (Isaiah 32:17, NIV)

Eternal life is complete peace. God acts from above to change man’s condition here on earth. Only when God’s Spirit is among us can we achieve true peace and fruitfulness (Ezekiel 36:22-38; Galatians 5:22-23). The settings described here will happen in full only in the end times. But we can have God’s Spirit with us now, for he is available to all believers through Christ (John 15:26). The outpouring mentioned here happens when the worldwide kingdom of God is established for all eternity (see Joel 2:28-29).

BIBLE READING: John 3:1-21

KEY BIBLE VERSE: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16, NIV)

Eternal life will be radically different from this life. Some people are repulsed by the idea of eternal life because their lives are miserable. But eternal life is not an extension of a person’s miserable, mortal life; eternal life is God’s life embodied in Christ given to all believers now as a guarantee that they will live forever. In eternal life there is no death, sickness, enemy, evil, or sin. When we don’t know Christ, we make choices as though this life is all we have. In reality, this life is just the introduction to eternity. Receive this new life by faith and begin to evaluate all that happens from an eternal perspective.

BIBLE READING: 2 Corinthians 5:1-10

KEY BIBLE VERSE: Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. (2 Corinthians 5:1, NIV)

Eternal life begins in this life. Paul contrasts our earthly bodies (“earthly tent”) and our future resurrection bodies (“building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands”). Paul clearly states that our present bodies make us groan, but when we die we will not be spirits without bodies (“be unclothed”). We will have new bodies that will be perfect for our everlasting life.

Paul wrote as he did because the church at Corinth was in the heart of Greek culture, and many believers had difficulty with the concept of bodily resurrection. Greeks did not believe in a bodily resurrection. Most held that the real person was the soul, imprisoned in a physical body and that the afterlife was something that happened only to the soul. They believed that at death the soul is released—there is no immortality for the body, and the soul enters an eternal state. But the Bible teaches that the body and soul are inseparable.

The Holy Spirit within us is our guarantee that God will give us everlasting bodies at the resurrection (2 Corinthians 1:22). We have eternity in us now! This truth should give us great courage and patience to endure anything we might experience.

How can someone know they have eternal life?

BIBLE READING: John 17:1-26

KEY BIBLE VERSE: Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3, NIV)

Eternal life is ours when we know God. How do we get eternal life? Jesus tells us clearly here—by knowing God the Father himself through his Son, Jesus Christ. Eternal life requires entering into a personal relationship with God in Jesus Christ. When we admit our sin and turn away from it, Christ’s love lives in us by the Holy Spirit.

BIBLE READING: John 6:60-71

KEY BIBLE VERSE: Simon Peter replied, “Master, to whom shall we go? You alone have the words that give eternal life, and we believe them and know you are the holy Son of God.” (John 6:68-69, TLB)

Eternal life is ours through Jesus Christ . After many of Jesus’ followers had deserted him, he asked the twelve disciples if they were also going to leave. Peter replied, “To whom shall we go?” In his straightforward way, Peter answered for all of us—there is no other way. Though there are many philosophies and self-styled authorities, Jesus alone has the words of eternal life . People look everywhere for eternal life and miss Christ, the only source. Stay with him, especially when you are confused or feel alone.

BIBLE READING: Luke 18:18-30

KEY BIBLE VERSE: A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Luke 18:18, NIV)

Eternal life is not something we earn. This ruler sought reassurance, some way of knowing for sure that he had eternal life. He wanted Jesus to measure and grade his qualifications, or to give him some task he could do to assure his own immortality. So Jesus gave him a task—the one thing the rich ruler knew he could not do. “Who then can be saved?” the bystanders asked. No one can, by his or her own achievements, Jesus’ answer implied. “What is impossible with men is possible with God.” Salvation cannot be earned—it is God’s gift (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

BIBLE READING: 1 John 5:1-12

KEY BIBLE VERSE: And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11-12, NIV)

Eternal life belongs to those who trust in Jesus. Whoever believes in God’s Son has eternal life. He is all you need. You don’t need to wait for eternal life because it begins the moment you believe. You don’t need to work for it because it is already yours. You don’t need to worry about it because you have been given eternal life by God himself—and it is guaranteed.

Some people hope that they will receive eternal life. John says we can know we have it. Our certainty is based on God’s promise that he has given us eternal life through his Son. This is true whether you feel close to God or distant from him. Eternal life is not based on feelings, but on facts. You can know that you have eternal life if you believe God’s truth. If you aren’t sure that you are a Christian, ask yourself: “Have I honestly committed my life to him as my Savior and Lord?” If so, you know by faith that you are indeed a child of God.

(The Handbook of Bible Application)
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi Betty, Carol, & Zeena.
Thanks for your evidence that is refuting the "Salvation of all". I too, in my early walk with God, thought that I could effect my own salvation. This brought on much 'worry' at times, am I doing what God wants me to do to be saved? So many different views from the various denominations, (churches) that I attended in my search for truth. What a relief when I was baptised with the "holy spirit" (Acts.1:5 seeing that John, indeed, baptizes in water, yet you shall be baptized in holy spirit after not many of these days.") What a relief, that I was not responsable, that God was in complete control, (Eph.1-11) and that He is working in me, "He" chose me, I had no part in my salvation, for "His achievement are we" (Eph.2:10)
GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21).
Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness.
The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh.
It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone.
Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10).
Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13).
All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace.
It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways.
However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more.
May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27).

Blessings, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
I am sorry but all you are doing is making excuses for you WRONG belief that salvation is Universal.
Jesus, Himself said people will spend eternity in Hell. Salvation is not Universal. Only those who proclaim Jesus as Lord and serve Him will spend eternity in Heaven.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


The IF is a big word here.
—Synonyms 1, 2. If, provided, providing imply a condition on which something depends.
The promise of salvation is depending upon you confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in Him.

Jesus taught a literal hell and made it clear that people who refuse the gift of salvation will spend eternity in hell

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [fn2] as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus did NOT teach Universal Salvation.
betty
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi Betty, thanks for your reply. I would like to take this opportunity to reply, if I may.

You say...Jesus, Himself said people will spend eternity in Hell. Salvation is not Universal. Only those who proclaim Jesus as Lord and serve Him will spend eternity in Heaven.
You quote Jesus' teaching, But He was "not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matt.15:24.
See Eph.2:11-12..."11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. If you'correctly cut the word of truth (2.Tim.2:5) then His (Jesus') teaching was for the Jews (His lost sheep) in that era. To apply them to us, in this present era of "Grace", is irrelevant, it is an error in teaching.

Also in the other scriptures you refer to in Matthew and John, are in the same category, not to us in this present era of "grace".

Also when you refer to Rev.20:15, the 'Lake of fire" This is a figurative quote, it is the "second death". (Rev.20:14)

Lastly you say "Jesus did not teach universal salvation". You are correct in this instance, Jesus message was, as the prophesied Messiah, to Israel, the entrance into the "Kingdom". This was the earthly destination for Israel if they had accepted their 'Messiah', which still will come to pass when God makes the "New Covenant" with Israel in the future. (Heb.9:12)

Thanks for your correspondence, much appreciated.

God Bless, Jerry.
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi again Betty, that last scripture I quoted should have been Heb.9:8-12.

Blessings, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Jerry,

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This was written during the age of grace. Sadly millions will spend eternity in hell.
I urge you to study your Bible more.
betty
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

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Originally posted by chosenone:
I know I had a hard time believing this, having been taught "heaven or hell" by various church denominations over my lifetime.

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Originally posted by chosenone:But God has shown me the truth, (and this is not of me, lest I should boast).

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Jerry,

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This was written during the age of grace. Sadly millions will spend eternity in hell.
I urge you to study your Bible more.
betty

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Hi Betty.
The 'lake of fire' is a figurative term, which is the "second death" (Rev.20:14). Death is death, many like yourself put some mistaken assumption that it is a 'literal lake full of scorching fire'. Read what it says in scripture, it is the "SECOND DEATH". Is the second death any different than the first death? No, those ressurrected from the 'first death', will be punished by the 'second' death, simple as that!
Also, the book of 'Revelation', being the last book in the bible, is "the Unveiling of Jesus Christ" (Rev.1:1), and is not to be confused as explaining the end times. 1Cor.15:22-28 describes the consummation of creation, the sequence of events that occur:

(1Cor.15:22-28)
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

Notice that when all is done, God will be ALL in all. (not ALL in some)

God Bless, Jerry.
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi Zeena.
You say re...I know I had a hard time believing this, having been taught "heaven or hell" by various church denominations over my lifetime.
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You JUST declared it a work in saying you 'had a hard time beleiving this'.

I don't know how this could be "works" in your understanding. When saying ...'I had a hard time believing this', like you, I had no knowledge of this until it was revealed to me by God throuhg His holy spirit. I had no part in my understanding of this. "All is of God" (1Cor.8:5-7, 1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36)

Blessings, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
The Parable of the Wedding Feast
(Luke 14:15-24)
22And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, [fn1] take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."


25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [fn2] as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Jesus makes it clear that not all the sheep are His. Those who have rejected salvation are not God's sheep and will have no place in Heaven

Instead of teaching a false salvation, pray for the lost.
betty
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi Betty.
It is of little use to quote scripture that was given to Israel. Jesus' teaching was to them, and them only. They were under the 'old covevenant' and the 'law'. see the book of Leviticus for a complete list of the "Law". In that era, we were 'without God', see Eph2:12. Israels entrance to the Kingdom was determined that they obey the 'Law' and keep their covenant with God. (the "Old Covenant) They could not do it, and also rejected their promised "Messiah". Therefore God rejected them and turned to the Gentiles.(Acts13:46)
In Pauls epistles to Timothy, he states that we must "Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth." This means we are to respect to whom these words were spoken to.
Please remember, "All scripture is FOR us, but not all scripture is ABOUT us."
It will be a great benefit to heed these scriptures:

Matt.15:24...Now He (Jesus), answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Ro.15:8...For I am saying that Christ has become the Servant of the Circumcision, for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises.
9 Yet the nations are to glorify God for His mercy...

Ro.15:16...16 for me (Paul) to be the minister of Christ Jesus for the nations, acting as a priest of the evangel of God, that the approach present of the nations may be becoming well received, having been hallowed by holy spirit.

Thanks for your input, I enjoy conversing with you.

God Bless, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Betty Louise

Jerry

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It is of little use to quote scripture that was given to Israel. Jesus' teaching was to them, and them only.

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zeena

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1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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They who? people use this to lable those whom they believe were not believers. It is true, but in that way. It was referring to those who not only were not believers, but who were antichrists. So to apply that to someone who is supposed to have 'believed', but supposedly quit believing, would be errant. This passage does not eliminate that group of people.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
The literal translation of “antichrist” can be rendered either “against” Christ or “instead of” Christ. “Anti” conveys opposition. And this hostile antichrist spirit not only permeates this age but actually increases as Christ’s return draws closer. While the idea of a person supremely hostile to Christ might tend to be unnerving, the warning is helpful. There really is no middle ground when it comes to allegiance to Christ and his truth. Neutrality is a myth. Riding the fence is impossible. In the words of the Savior, “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters” (Luke 11:23 NIV). Leaders in your church should help identify the cults and their teachings that influence people in your church and community. Explanations of their methods and principles should be challenged and countered by solid Christian doctrine.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Carol,

I agree with you. We need to prepare our children so when they go out in the world to college or to the work place they are not influenced by Preachers and Churches preaching a false Gospel.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Hi Betty Louise

What do you think of Lee Strobel?

Lee Strobel The Case For The Real Jesus


http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=strobel_RJ
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi all.
Our salvation is not out of ourselves. We do not possess it because we have done this or that in order to acquire it. Consequently, boasting is debarred (Rom.3:27). This is because we are God’s achievement. “For His achievement are we” (Eph.2: 10a). We are saved because we are God’s achievement. It is just that simple and this is fully the truth.
The word “achievement,” is poiˆma (DO-effect). We are the product of God’s doings. It is only unbelief that will seek to modify this or to explain it away. This unbelief is due to the deceptive influences of the worldly philosophy known as free will. We do not care for the fact that we ourselves, who effect much evil and some good, are the product of God’s own doings.
God, however, is able to operate in us, to will and to work for the sake of His delight (Phil.2:13), so that we think of these matters continually, and in a profitable and uplifting way. As those who are God’s achievement, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, ones which God Himself prepared beforehand, there is no possibility but that we should be walking in them. Indeed, since the subjunctive, “should,” in this case, points us only to God, the good works to which it refers are just as certain to be accomplished as would be the case had the indicative “shall” been used instead.
May God grant us a foretaste of the superabundant and transcendent good works of the future in a measure of good works even now, even if the best of these should be totally eclipsed when compared to our labors to come, during the oncoming eons, when we are conformed to the image of God’s Son and seated together among the celestials (Rom.8:29; Eph.2:6).
“Lest anyone should be boasting”—lest we ourselves should artfully contrive some way to look to and lean upon the flesh—we would glory only in God and in His Christ. We are saved in grace through faith, faith being an assumption, based upon God’s own word, concerning what is already true prior to and apart from our conviction in it. “For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them” (Eph.2:10).

Blessings, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

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zeena

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1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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They who? people use this to lable those whom they believe were not believers. It is true, but in that way. It was referring to those who not only were not believers, but who were antichrists. So to apply that to someone who is supposed to have 'believed', but supposedly quit believing, would be errant. This passage does not eliminate that group of people.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi Zeena.
You say re...I know I had a hard time believing this, having been taught "heaven or hell" by various church denominations over my lifetime.
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You JUST declared it a work in saying you 'had a hard time beleiving this'.

I don't know how this could be "works" in your understanding. When saying ...'I had a hard time believing this', like you, I had no knowledge of this until it was revealed to me by God throuhg His holy spirit. I had no part in my understanding of this. "All is of God" (1Cor.8:5-7, 1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36)

Blessings, Jerry.

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Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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But to view the condemnation of sinners as beyond the power and province of the Saviour is most shameful and exceedingly harmful to our lives and growth in faith.
Everlasting hell cannot be so if Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners!

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• Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

• Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
The New Birth
3There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
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There is no misunderstanding. Jesus said you MUST BE BORN AGAIN to enter the Kingdom of God.

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Jesus' teaching was to Israel, see Matt.15:2 "Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
The statement "you must be born again" is to the nation of Israel. This word "you" is plural in the original greek. Have a look in Heb.9:8-13, when He (God) will make a "New Covenant" with them. This will be their 'new birth', which will be "spitual".

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I believe that if you read the Bible, instead of just verses, that you will find that Jesus was sent unto Israel to be rejected of them, that HE could then extend salvation to the Gentiles. In fact, even in the case of Matthew 15:24 He still ministered to the woman, because of her faith! Faith was key. But with regard to being born again, He meant that anyone, Jew or Gentile, will not see the Kingdom of God otherwise, though it was not offered to the Gentiles 'on that day'. They were still included in His plan. But it could not be effected until He had suffered rejection.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

He offered Himself for Israel. It just so happens that the Gentiles were welcome too! See the book of Acts. And one is born again by believing on Him, in surrender to His will.

How does one serve God but by His Spirit. Else he offers the ineffective sacrifice of Cain, desiring to be recognized.

quote:

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when He (God) will make a "New Covenant" with them. This will be their 'new birth', which will be "spitual".

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• Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you have not done this, then you are not saved and will not spend eternity in Heaven. The sin is not asking for forgiveness but rejecting the gift of salvation. I pray you will do so before it is too late.
betty

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I guess I'll have to say no, I never did confess my "sins". But thanks be to God, that He sent His Son "Jesus" to justify all mankind, incuding me, through His death and resurrection.
I thought it would be blasphemous to ask God forgiveness for something His Son has already done in my place, to wash away my sin. What an insult to God, to ignore what He sent His Son to do for me, which is why He 'sees my sin no more'. I quote Eph.1:7 ...in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
You see Betty, "Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God". (Ro.8:8) Sad to say, I'm still in the flesh, I can't please God.

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• 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• 1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

If God dwells in one, he is no longer in the flesh. But it is dependent upon one's faith to be effectual. For one is in the flesh through unbelief. It is the unbelief that curses one to this reality. Unbelief separates one from God making him to be in the flesh. We know that God is Spirit.

Jesus doesn't justify all of mankind. HE justifies those who believe on Him. It is a choice one makes.

• 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

So where does the unbeliever fall (literally)?

If you have sin, HE sees it. He isn't blind.

• Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

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Sad to say, I'm still in the flesh, I can't please God.

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One is in the flesh by 'unbelief'. For one is in the Spirit through faith.

• Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

• Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Condemnation is to those who are in the flesh. For to follow, or obey the flesh it is so.

• Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

• Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

• 1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

• 1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

One is not saved because they 'agree' with what Jesus did. One must surrender to what HE did. That means that one must through faith, die, and also through the same faith, rise with Him from the dead. With Him! That is like a companionship thing. That should read, 'together' with Him. One does not rise alone, for one must rise 'by' Him.

For to be under the Cross means to surrender one's will to Him.

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Good Post Michael

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
-- James 2:18-20 [NRSV]

Salvation is not believing that God is real. Salvation is accepting Jesus as your Savior and Lord
betty
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi all.
Wow! So many disagreements. But by now I'm used to this, you obviously don't believe the scripture "All is of God" (scripture in 1 & 2 Cor. and Romans), and "God is operating "ALL" in accord with the councel of HIS WILL. (Eph.1:11)
So I guess there is not much use using scripture, you don't believe it anyway. You all seem to believe that Jesus' teaching was for all, not just as He Himself said in Matt.15:24. (yes, He ministered to the Samaritan woman, He is compassionate, and Loving, but His words are truth. Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
See also Ro.15:8 "For I (Paul) am saying that Christ has become the Servant of the Circumcision, for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises".
Also Ro.15:16 "...for me (Paul) to be the minister of Christ Jesus for the nations,

Now Betty says " When I first realized, fully, what God had done for me through Jesus, I couldn't stop crying. Crying with joy at the thought of forgiveness and eternal life"... Was this of yourself, or did you come to this realisation of what God had done for you? You also say "while I still cry sometimes when I look at my failures and smile at His successes". Very good, you give God the credit.

Michael, you say, "1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. Yes, but it is God that, through His holy spirit, accomplishes this.

And you say this:

Condemnation is to those who are in the flesh. For to follow, or obey the flesh it is so.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.


1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


One is not saved because they 'agree' with what Jesus did. One must surrender to what HE did. That means that one must through faith, die, and also through the same faith, rise with Him from the dead. With Him! That is like a companionship thing. That should read, 'together' with Him. One does not rise alone, for one must rise 'by' Him.

For to be under the Cross means to surrender one's will to Him.

I can't disagree with these verses, but notice, it is the work of God that accomplishes this. Not the "flesh", but the "spirit", which only God gives when He is living in you to accomplish "His will".

Betty, you say: Salvation is not believing that God is real. "Salvation is accepting Jesus as your Savior and Lord". But scripture says..."For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. Notice the words "AND THIS IS NOT OUT OF YOU"?

Hope this is sufficient, it is difficult to try and answer so many posts. I may not have
answered every detail, so let me know your answers.

God Bless, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Jerry,

Many of us have spoken to you in love explaining that Universal Salvation is a lie from the pits of hell, and yet you are unwilling to listen.
The Bible makes it clear that in the last days people will reject the truth, preferring a false Gospel.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The Apostles would not have died for spreading the Gospel if all were saved automatically.

I see that no one can convince you of the truth and I am reminded of the verse.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I am not trying to be mean but explain that it is no good to try to speak the truth to you. You do not want to know the truth. Sadly your stubbornness could land you in hell.
betty
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Whew! Can I get a head scratching emoticon? Yes Jerry, the Spirit of God accomplished this, but not in spite of you. God is a gentleman, and HE requires your cooperation. He doesn't just 'save' you.
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Jerry,

Many of us have spoken to you in love explaining that Universal Salvation is a lie from the pits of hell, and yet you are unwilling to listen.
The Bible makes it clear that in the last days people will reject the truth, preferring a false Gospel.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The Apostles would not have died for spreading the Gospel if all were saved automatically.

I see that no one can convince you of the truth and I am reminded of the verse.

Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I am not trying to be mean but explain that it is no good to try to speak the truth to you. You do not want to know the truth. Sadly your stubbornness could land you in hell.
betty

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Hi Betty.
Thanks for your concern about me, I know you respond in love.
But as I have written many times, the scripture you quote in Matt.7:6 is for the Jews.
Here is an explanation of the meaning of this verse:
Matt.7:6 ...Both dogs and hogs were unclean according to the law. The Lord Himself followed this principle when He spoke in parables to those without, and kept the holy and precious truth for His own disciples. We are hardly justified in “applying” these opprobrious terms to immature saints who are not yet able to bear more than milk.

Notice that 'under the law' dogs and hogs were unclean. Is this applicable to us today? I think not.

I know you don't wish me any harm, but you must apply scripture in context with with all scripture, this means "correctly cutting the word of truth" (2Tim.2:15).

It will benefit you much to understand the difference of those who were "under the law" in that era, and the present "covenant of Grace".

Applying scripture from anywhere in the bible to this present era, is not always applicable.

Again, read the book of "Leviticus", this explains all the "laws" for those under the law. I'm sure you couldn't possibly keep them all, so why try to apply scripture from that era, meant for the Jews, to us today?

Thanks Betty.

God Bless, Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

again I say This is written to both Jew and Gentiles.


" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
betty


The Man of God and the Word of God
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra--what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Romans 10:9 - 13 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


At this point Paul quoted Isaiah 28:16 to show that salvation is by faith: “Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.” He quoted this verse before in Romans 9:33. He made it clear in Romans 10:9-10 that salvation is by faith—we believe in the heart, receive God’s righteousness, and then confess Christ openly and without shame.

Paul’s final quotation was from Joel 2:32, to prove that this salvation is open to everyone: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Paul had already proved that “there is no difference” in condemnation (Rom. 3:20-23); now he affirms that “there is no difference” in salvation.
(Wiersbe)
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Luke 13:25-27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.


Today is the day of salvation, no one has a promise of tomorrow.
betty
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Betty Louise


Jesus pictured the kingdom as a great feast, with the patriarchs and prophets as honored guests (Luke 13:28). But many of the people who were invited waited too long to respond; and, when they arrived at the banquet hall, it was too late and the door was shut (see Matt. 22:1-14; Luke 14:15-24).

But why did they wait so long? The parable suggests several reasons. To begin with, salvation is not easy; the sinner must enter a narrow gate and walk a narrow way (Luke 13:24; also see 9:23). The world’s crowd is on the easy way, the way that leads to destruction (Matt. 7:13-14), and it is much easier to walk with them.

Another reason for their delay was their false sense of security. Jesus had been among them; they had even eaten with Him and enjoyed His fellowship, yet they had never trusted Him. God gave the nation many privileges and opportunities, but they wasted them (see Luke 10:13-16). God is long-suffering; however, there comes a time when even God shuts the door.

Pride also played a big part: they would not humble themselves before God. In their own eyes, they were first, but in God’s eyes, they were last—and the Gentiles would come and take their place! (see Matt. 21:43) Imagine the “unclean Gentile dogs” sitting at the feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, while the unbelieving Jews were outside!

These people were lost because they depended on their ancient religion to save them; but Jesus saw them as “workers of iniquity,” not doers of righteousness (Isa. 64:4; Titus 1:16). It takes more than reverence for tradition to get into God’s kingdom!

But the major reason was given by Jesus Himself: “Ye would not” (Luke 13:34). Their minds had been instructed by the Word (Luke 13:26), and their hearts had been stirred by His mighty works, but their wills were stubborn and would not submit to Him. This is the deadly consequence of delay. The longer sinners wait, the harder their hearts become. “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts” (Heb. 4:7).

(Wiersbe)
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
But the major reason was given by Jesus Himself: “Ye would not” (Luke 13:34). Their minds had been instructed by the Word (Luke 13:26), and their hearts had been stirred by His mighty works, but their wills were stubborn and would not submit to Him. This is the deadly consequence of delay. The longer sinners wait, the harder their hearts become. “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts” (Heb. 4:7).

Very good ,Carol!!

It breaks my heart that someone may go to hell who knows the truth but rejects the truth.
Jesus said that truth will set you free, but not if you reject the truth.
betty
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 

quote:

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What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion"

Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion" which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion" which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out.

aion - , - age, world

"for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

aionion, aionios - - eternal

"aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."

Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."

1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."

1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"

Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."

etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.

Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"

Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"

2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"

Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

Eis tous aionios ton aionion - - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"

"unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."

Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."

Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."

Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.

These few references and quotes should be ample evidence that eternal hell, eternal fire, is real. It is a terrible reality and it is all the more important to preach the gospel. The universalists are wrong and their theology only dilutes the need to come to Christ.

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quote:

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Again, read the book of "Leviticus", this explains all the "laws" for those under the law. I'm sure you couldn't possibly keep them all, so why try to apply scripture from that era, meant for the Jews, to us today?

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Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. If we surrender to Him, we will abide in them. For the Jews, the law was to be kept by effort, together with ceremony. Ceremony you know, included things like 'sacrifice'. In our case, Jesus keeps the law, and as we abide in Him, it is fulfilled in us. And if we do sin, (by doubting Jesus) our ceremony is Jesus. HE is the high priest, and the sacrifice both for past, and present. But there is no requirement to break the law. Therefore neither is there reason to accept that it was written for only for the Jews.


 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
About eon, eonian.



Concordant Studies

EON AS INDEFINITE DURATION
(PART ONE)

FROM THE EARLY TIMES OF CHURCH HISTORY the words aiõn and aiõnios (“eon” and “eonian” in the Concordant Version) have been the subject of much controversy. This is because the question of their meaning is central to the issue of “eternal punishment.”
Many holding our essential position will say that aiõn means “age,” not “[for] ever.” While this is a step in the right direction and in a loose sense is even correct, it is problematic, and leaves some legitimate room for objection.
For example, were we to use “age” as our basis for representing aiõnios, it would depend on what we have in mind by “age” whether we should say “age-pertaining,” or “age-lasting.” In any case, uniform translation would be impossible and interpretation would be unavoidable. This is because some usages of aiõn are for only a portion of one of the scriptural, epochal eons. Yet it is true that aiõn itself is often used in reference to the entire duration of whatever “age” may be in view in any certain context. “Age-pertaining,” besides being awkward, assumes that the notion of “time-periodness” is inherent to aiõn, which is incorrect; “age-lasting,” adds the further problem of affirming that that which is eonian, always obtains for the entirety of an eon, which is also incorrect.
It is best to use or at least conceive the word “duration” instead of “age” (or even “eon”) when we are considering these things, even if, in translation, “duration” would be too awkward. It is true that for most readers, the English “eon” confines the idea signified to a period of time. Yet even those who differ with us in our teaching, even from their own perspective, can make no legitimate objection to the rendering “eon,” itself, since more comprehensive dictionaries include among their definitions for this word not only the idea of a period of time, but of “everlastingness” as well.
“Eon” seems to be the only practical and objective word to use in translation. However, to be objective when considering this word in Scripture, with a view toward establishing its essential meaning, one must conceive of it non-interpretatively, simply as an anglicized transliteration of aiõn, similar to “baptize” for baptizõ. Yet, after determining its meaning, in considering further its varied usages, one must also recognize that it is no more true that this word exclusively refers to the epochal eons of Scripture, than that it sometimes speaks of the notion of boundless eternity. Nonetheless, we have found that nearly all of the usages of aiõn in the Greek Scriptures do refer to the epochal eons of history (i.e., the “eonian times,” 2 Tim.1:9; see the Keyword Concordance entries “eon” and “eonian”). Only a few New Testament aiõn texts concern some other briefer period (e.g., not washing feet [John 13:8], or not eating meat [1 Cor.8:13], “for the eon” [i.e., duration]).



LEXICOGRAPHY, THE CLASSICS,
AND THE SEPTUAGINT

Scriptural usage alone is authoritative. Yet since many will appeal to lexicography (inasmuch as many lexicographers claim that olam, together with aiõn and aiõnios, “sometimes” means “everlasting” or “eternal”), we would only point out that lexicographers differ in their opinions; and, even where they concur, this is no proof that they are correct. The words of the apostle Paul ever remain good advice, “let no one be boasting in men” (1 Cor.3:21).
“Now lexicography must always be consulted, especially on disputed words, cum grano salis. A theologian, in his definition, is quite certain to shade technical words with his own belief, and lean one way or the other, accord to his own predilections. Unconsciously and necessarily, the lexicographer who has a bias in favor of any doctrine will tincture his definitions with his own idiosyncracies. Very few have sat judicially, and given meanings to words with reference to their exact usage; so that one must examine dictionaries concerning any words whose meaning is disputed, with the same care that should be used in reference to any subject on which men differ.”1
In our consideration of lexicography, we should note that the primary usage of aiõn, both in early and later Greek, is that of the duration of one’s life. “The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius (c. 400-600 A.D.), defines aiõn thus: ‘The life of man, the time of life.’ At this early date, no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the Classics, and in the Bible . . . . John of Damascus (c. 750 A.D.) says, ‘The life of every man is called [his] aiõn . . . . The whole duration or life of this world is called aiõn . . . . The life after the resurrection is called the aiõn to come’ . . . .
“But in the sixteenth century, Phavorinus was compelled to notice an addition, which subsequently to the time of the famous Council of 544 had been grafted onto the word. He says: ‘Aiõn, time, also [by association] life, also habit, or way of life. Aiõn is also the eternal and the endless as it seems to the theologian.’ Theologians had succeeded in using the word in the sense of endless, and Phavorinus was forced to recognize their usage of it. His phraseology shows conclusively enough that he attributed to theologians the authorship of that use of the word.
“Alluding to this definition, Ezra S. Goodwin, one of the ripest scholars and profoundest critics, says, ‘Here I strongly suspect is the true secret brought to light of the origin of the sense of eternity in aiõn. The theologian first thought he perceived it, or else he placed it there. The theologian keeps it there, now . . . . Hence it is that those lexicographers who assign eternity as one of the meanings of aiõn uniformly appeal for proofs to either theological Hebrew or Rabbinical Greek, or some species of Greek subsequent to the age of the Seventy [i.e., the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures], if not subsequent to the age of the apostles, so far as I can ascertain.’ The second definition by Phavorinus is extracted literally from the ‘Etymologicon Magnum’ of the ninth or tenth century. This gives us the usage from the fourth to the sixteenth century, and shows us that, if the word meant endless at the time of Christ, it must have changed from limited duration in the Classics, to unlimited duration, and then back again, at the dates above specified! [Yet] from the sixteenth century onward, the word has been defined as used to denote all lengths of time from brief to endless . . . .”2
In considering the usage of aiõn in the Greek Classics (the literature with which the authors of the Septuagint were familiar), Hanson says further concerning Goodwin, that, earlier in the nineteenth century, he “patiently and candidly traced this word through the Classics, finding the noun frequently in nearly all the writers, but not meeting the adjective until Plato, its [apparent] inventor, used it. [Goodwin] states, as the result of his protracted and exhaustive examination from the beginning down to Plato, ‘We have the whole evidence of seven Greek writers, extending through about six centuries, down to the age of Plato, who make use of aiõn, in common with other words; and no one of them ever employs it in the sense of eternity.’ When the Old Testament was translated from the Hebrew into Greek by the Seventy, the word aiõn had been in common use for many centuries.
“It is preposterous to say that the Seventy would render the Hebrew olam by the Greek aiõn and give to the latter (1) a different meaning from that of the former, or (2) a different meaning from aiõn in the current Greek literature. It is self-evident, then, that aiõn in the Old Testament means exactly what olam means, and also what aiõn means in the Greek Classics. Indefinite duration is the sense of olam, and it is equally clear that aiõn has a similar signification . . . . I do not know of an instance in which any lexicographer has produced the usage of ancient classical Greek in evidence that aiõn means eternity. Ancient classical Greek rejects it altogether’ (by ‘ancient’ he means the Greek existing anterior to the days of the Seventy).
“Thus it appears that when the Seventy began their work of giving the world a version of the Old Testament that should convey the sense of the Hebrew Bible, they must have used aiõn in the sense in which it was then used. Endless duration is not the meaning the word had in Greek literature at that time. Therefore the word cannot have that meaning in Old Testament Greek. Nothing can be plainer than that Greek literature at the time the Old Testament was rendered into the Greek Septuagint did not give to aiõn the meaning of endless duration.”3



THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES

An objective consideration of the facts of Scripture shows that the essence of olam (and therefore of aiõn as well, its equivalent, whether in the Septuagint or in the New Testament) is simply duration. As Vladimir Gelesnoff wrote, “The Hebrew olam is derived from a primitive root meaning to veil from sight, to conceal. A conspectus of the passages proves that olam expresses duration, the whole time during which a person, thing, or state, exists . . . . It may, therefore, be rendered [correctly as to interpretative sense if not to essential meaning] by any term expressing the duration required.
“Mankind began with Adam. As at present constituted, it will have an end. Hence, if olam is used of persons, it expresses their whole life, or life-time; if a succession of generations, or the state of a people, mankind, or creation, then a period of time, an extended period of time, commensurate with the specific application (e.g., Prov.22:28; Gen.6:4; Psa.77:5, 143:3; Joshua 24:2) . . . .
“The Hebrew servant whose ear was bored became a bondman ‘for ever,’ that is, for life (Ex.21:6) . . . . ‘For ever’ in 1 Chronicles 22:10 covers the forty years of Solomon’s reign; in 1 Kings 8:13 and 9:3, it is the time when the temple was in existence . . . . Further passages such as Ecclesiastes 1:4 and Psalm 78:69 which speak of the earth abiding ‘for ever,’ when compared with passages such as Matthew 5:18, 2 Peter 3:7-10, Revelation 21:1, make evident that the ‘for ever’ of both the Psalmist and Ecclesiastes is coeval with the continuance of the present earth, from its making in Genesis 1:3-31 to its dissolution in Revelation 21:1 . . . .
“The crowning proof that the idea of endlessness is foreign to olam is afforded by the phrase ‘for ever and ever.’ The English reader may suppose the second ‘ever’ to be the same word as the first. But it is not. The Hebrew is va-ed. As the Septuagint translates it, ‘and still,’ and as the translators have so rendered it in scores of places, we will translate it ‘beyond’ or ‘further.’ Now, if olam meant endlessness as some say it does, why reinforce it by adding ‘beyond’? Nor is this all. Further study discloses that even olam va-ed (‘for ever and ever’) does not refer to infinitude. The Psalmist says: ‘I will keep Your law continually, forever’ [i.e., ‘for the eon and beyond’; CV, Psa.119:44]. Now, as our Lord plainly indicates the passing away of the law (Matt.5:17,18), it follows that law observance is over once the law is done away. The terminal point of the Ages is hid from the ancient prophets. Beyond the era of Israel’s restoration they see dimly a farther stretch. But it is too distant to discern the faintest outline or catch a feeble glimmer of its glory. As a huge orb of light appears to a spectator myriads of miles away a mere tiny speck, remote futurity to the Hebrew seers is a far-off, vague, indistinct something which they style beyond. It was reserved for the apostle to the nations to observe the age of ages at close range and unveil its consummative glory in his own marvelous unfoldings.”4
“Yahweh, He shall reign for the eon and further” (Ex.15:18). The reign of Yahweh, in the Person of Christ, will continue not “for ever,” but until the consummation, when He gives up the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24). Similarly, the mercy of Yahweh is “for the eon and further” (Psa.52:8). The Scripture discloses a sinless past and anticipates a flawless future. Hence the provision of mercy “for the eon and further,” makes it coextensive with the existence of offense while circumscribing the time during which it will be needed.
The Hebrew olam va-ed, and its Greek equivalent “for the eons of the eons,” then, convey the idea of terminable, though chronologically indefinite and unrevealed duration.
The idea of the nouns (olam, or aiõn) is always “[for the] duration” of that which is in view. The duration which is in view must always be judged from the context, or from the nature of things, otherwise known. Therefore, the adjectival idea is, “of or pertaining to the duration (of that which is in view).” In some cases, especially in the Hebrew Scriptures, the duration which is in view (whether used of the past or future) is not at all referring to the epochal eons (i.e., those eons which, abiding for long periods, correspond to the system [or world] which, during any certain time, prevails on earth; e.g., Eph.2:2).
Often, the references are only to a much briefer duration, such as the length of time when a people lived in a certain region (Joshua 24:2); the brief duration of Jonah’s experience inside the great fish (Jonah 2:6); or the duration of the remainder of a slave’s lifetime in which he would serve his master (Deut.15:17). Yet no such usages or any others affect the meaning of olam itself; they only show that it is used in reference to many diverse durations.
There does not seem to be anything in the word itself that would definitively preclude at least the possibility that it could be used in reference to an unending duration (since, after all, all the word says is “duration”). Nonetheless, as Brother Gelesnoff’s article points out, when olam is used epochally (i.e., of long-continuing duration), its references are still governed by the words “and further,” even as by the subjects to which both these phrases (“for the olam” and, “and further”) refer, namely, the millennial kingdom, and the new earth which follows it.
The primary epochal usage of olam, points to the Messianic kingdom, which, as we later learn, is of one thousand years’ duration. Yet when the words “and further” are added, we are brought to the period of which Isaiah prophesies (Isa.66:22), the period which Peter confirms (2 Peter 3:13) and John sees in vision (Rev.21, 22), the epochal new heavens and new earth.
We know that the apostle John’s vision is, indeed, of an epochal period, not of endless duration. We know this simply because while John, in Revelation 21 and 22, speaks of the reign of Christ, of saints, and of kings of the earth, while affirming the presence of the second death, Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, speaks of Christ reigning until He gives up the reign (the kingdom); indeed, of the time when all sovereignty and authority is nullified (which therefore includes that of both the saints and the kings of the earth), and even of the time when death itself is abolished, the glorious day when all will finally have that life of which Christ is the Firstfruit, all unto the end that God may be All in all (1 Cor.15:28). Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.
Indeed, no sane and unprejudiced mind will claim otherwise. A sane and unprejudiced mind, however, is the gift of God. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are concealed in Him (Col.2:3). We cannot enlighten others, though God may enlighten others through us. If most cannot accept our testimony, we can only assure ourselves that we are simply believing what the Scriptures actually say.



CONFUSION CONCERNING WORD MEANING

The fact is that God will one day abolish death and become All in all (1 Cor.15:26,28). Such a glorious consideration itself precludes any legitimate claim that these words in question, olam and aiõn, may sometimes refer to an unending duration of punishment.
Yet nothing is more common than for theologians and professors to rehearse a variety of passages in which these words in question appear, which, to the popular mind (including that of most scholars), indeed, seem to refer to endlessness. Then the claim is made that olam (or aiõn) “has a wide range of meaning,” which is to say a plurality of meanings, including the idea of endlessness, whether in reference to the past or future.
Scholars are correct when they stress that meaning must be determined by context; yet they err when, failing to distinguish special usage from essential meaning, they claim that word meaning may well be plural and is to be determined by “the context,” or, more accurately, by the presuppositions which they bring to the context. Since ordinary believers have no idea what the truth may be about such things, they simply accept the scholars’ word. Yet if the scholars are either bound by tradition, or simply do not think fully logically on these questions, they will be confident that they are correct, and will dismiss our views merely as the suppositions of “heretics.”
Yet it is according to the presuppositions of most that truth is determined, presuppositions which make it seem correct that these time words sometimes refer to endlessness (hence the confused claim that they sometimes “mean” everlasting or eternal).
On the other hand, if we can show that olam and aiõn never mean “endless,” we ourselves need to realize that it does not follow from this that it is simply impossible for these words ever to refer to the endless past or future. Yet even so, neither does it follow that even if there is nothing that intrinsically precludes these words themselves from being used to make such a reference, that they are ever, in fact, so used.
Indeed we are far from suggesting that they are ever so used. Any exegesis in favor of such a claim is but the reflection of a failure to recognize that the notion of “eternity past” is not a scriptural theme, and that, with reference to the future, the Scriptures do not use these expressions of any time extending beyond that of the period of John’s vision of the new earth. Such false claims concerning olam and aiõn as well are but the fruit of the foundational error of everlasting punishment, of a failure to see that, in soteriology (the doctrine of salvation), while the Arminians are correct as to the compass of those for whom Christ salvifically died (namely, all mankind), just as surely, the Calvinists are correct as to the gracious nature of the evangel, how it is that the sacrifice of Christ effects salvation for all for whom it was designed.

James Coram


1. John Wesley Hanson, Aiõn-Aiõnios, p.12; Chicago: Northwestern Universalist Publishing House, 1875.

2. ibid., pp.12,13; cit., Christian Examiner, vol.10, p.47; Boston: Gray & Bowen.

3. ibid., pp.20,21,26,27.

4. Unsearchable Riches, vol.2, pp.238,239,243,244.

Forward to Part Two



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Part two is available if requested.

Blessings. Jerry.
 

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Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :
 
Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching [them], yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
 

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Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :
 
1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."

So then, Jesus was just the God of that 'age' Jerry?
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

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Yet nothing is more common than for theologians and professors to rehearse a variety of passages in which these words in question appear, which, to the popular mind (including that of most scholars ), indeed, seem to refer to endlessness.

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The biblical gospel states that Jesus paid for the sins of those he had come to save (the elect, as Jesus himself says ). At some pre-determined time in their life, God applies the payment of Jesus' to the elect sinner through the hearing of the word of God, gives them a new nature (being born again john 3:3) and imputes Jesus' righteousness to their account. The result of this is a sinner living a transformed life, marked by repentance, prayer, forgiveness, hatred for his or her sin, love for Christ, God and man etc.

The presupposition of the biblical gospel (sometimes derisively labeled "Calvinism") is that all men are sinners with free-will. Because the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, man will always use his free-will to choose sin and will never, of his own free-will, accept Christ or repent. This is because the nature rules the will and our natures will not accept the spiritual things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Thus being "born again" requires an act of God, changing the nature, which rules the will. Thus "coming forward", "repentance" are "responses" to being born again, instead of "causes" of being born again.

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No more warnings. DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website.

Calvanism is based on a limited and crippled understanding of Scripture.

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Even if God saved nobody, but simply allowed us wicked people a normal life on earth, it would still be an act of Grace on God's part. Because all of us deserve eternal damnation right now because of our sins.

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This shows a misunderstanding of grace, unless you simply mean that He should’ve destroyed us, and did not. Otherwise grace is the changing part. Change is what we discover if we 'have truly known' His grace. But people think of grace as meaning ‘tolerance’. In the strictest terms, grace is more than that!

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Q: Is the gospel message about how God imposes His will on man? or is it a message about what man may reap if he chooses to align his will with God's?

Neither. God does not impose his will on man. God transforms the man, giving him a new nature and making him a new creature. The saved person's response to this, according to the Bible, is repentance, prayer, love, etc. This was the shocking news Jesus gave to Nicodemus in John chapter 3. You must be born again. This new birth requires an act of God..

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God does not 'impose' His will upon man. Agreed! But man’s will accepts God’s provision, else there is no “giving him a new nature and making him a new creature.” There is no automatic ‘changing’ of the life of a person without the will of the person submitting to God. And this is a ‘choice’ that a man makes, not that we loved Him, but that HE loved us first.(John4:19) If man does not make that choice, it is not made for Him, though he may even be “Drawn to God, by His very Spirit.” (John 6:44) This puts an end to the supposition number two in the previous post. Here is a partial quote of that”

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Because the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, man will always use his free-will to choose sin and will never, of his own free-will, accept Christ or repent. This is because the nature rules the will and our natures will not accept the spiritual things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Thus being "born again" requires an act of God, changing the nature, which rules the will. Thus "coming forward", "repentance" are "responses" to being born again, instead of "causes" of being born again.

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1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Why did it ‘please God by the foolishness of preaching’? It is because HE wanted man’s free will to be involved. God’s Spirit can lift a man up, positioning him to ‘receive’ the free gift of salvation, and he still can refuse. You can argue until someone sees a cow breakdance in a barnyard, but it is so!

So this next paragraph is out of line because ‘fruit of a changed life’ is evidence of “Belief,” which is evidence of free will choice, which depends not upon ‘feelings’ which one may seek for after having ‘gone’ to the alter, if they did not find them then and there.

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It is just the evidence of salvation is never your acceptance of Christ, but instead, as the Bible teaches, the evidence of a transformed life and the witness of the Spirit with your spirit that you are children of God. That's why the Bible urges us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. Please don't ever trust in a religious act, like coming forward, or "accepting Christ" or any other religious act, as the proof that you are a Christian. The Bible does not support it.

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I agree wholly with the part about the Spirit bearing witness with ‘your’ spirit, however, that isn’t always immediately apparent. That is why there is a call to ‘’persevere’’, perhaps to demonstrate to God, or one‘s self, their commitment. One cannot simply ‘cast off’ an agreement like that as though God did not honor their faith, else God is not true. If one went to the alter, he had better believe that he meant it. Else, he had better recognize that God recognized it. And a transformed life is not always immediately apparent. Sometimes one has to, “Suffer in the flesh before he has ceased from sin.” (1 Peter 4:1) So you place yourself in the ‘judgment seat’ of the brethren when you make the statement that you do. You have heard that, "God is not through with them yet."

But oh dread, your ‘once saved always saved’ dogma is nonsense, and based on a flimsy notion. (How we have gone through that on this board. But I am always game.) I can see how you come to this conclusion based on the way you relate your understanding of the gospel. But.............

But going back to freewill and choice, if we read scripture we will find in one place that, "God hardened Pharoh's heart." We will find in another that, "Pharoah hardened his own heart."
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Dave B.
How do you reconcile your belief with Peters answer to those who asked what they must do to be saved?......Peter replied, "Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveneness of sin, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.

I am afraid Peter would have been sadly mistaken in making this type of declaration if individuals desiring to be saved had already received the Holy Ghost having been born-again from above.

And how is it that Peter can make the declaration that the Holy Ghost is given to them that obey God? It seems to me(at least in the context of Peter' words) that there must at least be an obedience of the heart that proceeds the receiving of the Holy Ghost.

I dont know if its just me, but the theory that you provide seems to have a bit of mystery to it in that an individual is evidently at some point of time in there life suddenly (out of the blue) zapped with God's grace and given the Holy Spirit simeltaneous.

I dont know if I can buy that way of thinking Dave. I do not agree with you on how you perceive God to carry out His sovereignty, but I do agree with you that the spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. God provides the witness and we do not have the need of another human beings assurance. In fact I think that we should desire that assurance from God, because if we only received it from man we could still be lost souls.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

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Originally posted by WildB:
Its a shame that GreenCandel is free to teach Gnosticism and per mote The Gospel Of Thomas In Full ....

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002640

Wheres David on this?

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

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Originally posted by WildB:
Its a shame that GreenCandel is free to teach Gnosticism and per mote The Gospel Of Thomas In Full ....

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002640

Wheres David on this?

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Hey WildB!

I wasn't here in 2006. What happened to these 2 unregistered Gospel of Thomas promoters?

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004881

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I am not teaching Calvinism. I only stated that the biblical gospel is often labeled as such and then dismissed out of hand.
My goal, as is the goal of the other posters, is to answer the question "once saved always saved?" in the context of what salvation is, as opposed to what biblical salvation is not.

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On your second point, I also agree with you that "man's will accepts God's provision", and also that "there is no automatic ‘changing’ of the life of a person without the will of the person submitting to God". Man accepting God's provision and submission to God are essential marks of Grace. However, these marks of grace are the "results" of God's transforming the nature. We have to remember the biblical teaching that before salvation, man's will is subject to their spiritually dead nature. God must first regenerate the dead sinner, giving them a new nature, THEN, the saved person's free will is free to respond in submission and all the other marks of Grace. Like you said in 1 John 4:19, we love because he first loved us. God's regeneration of a dead sinner is the necessary first step in salvation. As we saw in my earlier posts, a dead sinner is not willing or capable of making a spiritual decision. They can only make a psychological decision .

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The word "draws" is the gr: helkusay, from helko, which means to drag or to draw a sword. It means to compel a person to do something.

At the end of Jesus' discourse in John 6, Jesus concludes with:
John 6:65: He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (NIV)

Enabled in greek is really the word "it has been given". It is in the perfect tense which means it happened once and applies in full-force and effect forever. It is interesting to note that after Jesus made this statement, many of his followers walked no more with him.

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So my point is, yes, man makes a choice to believe or not believe, as the call of the gospel commands all men to believe. The bible also teaches that dead sinners will never make that choice, until God regenerates them. God's plan to regenerate people is according to God's sovereign good pleasure. Thankfully, God is very kind and has evidently planned to save many, many people.

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On your second point, I also agree with you that "man's will accepts God's provision", and also that "there is no automatic ‘changing’ of the life of a person without the will of the person submitting to God". Man accepting God's provision and submission to God are essential marks of Grace. However, these marks of grace are the "results" of God's transforming the nature. We have to remember the biblical teaching that before salvation, man's will is subject to their spiritually dead nature. God must first regenerate the dead sinner, giving them a new nature, THEN, the saved person's free will is free to respond in submission and all the other marks of Grace.
Like you said in 1 John 4:19, we love because he first loved us. God's regeneration of a dead sinner is the necessary first step in salvation. As we saw in my earlier posts, a dead sinner is not willing or capable of making a spiritual decision. They can only make a psychological decision.

Now let's go to John 6:44 and also answer Daniel's question about Peter's statement in Acts.

Again Michael I agree with you, that if man does not make the choice, it is NOT made for him. Man makes the choice, but he can only make the choice after God has made the person alive by means of faith as a result of hearing the gospel.

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It sounds to me like you are agreeably disagreeing! But I do not believe that anyone is 'regenerated' until by their free will, they choose, even though the Spirit anointed them to make the choice. I insist that people who have been lifted up by the Spirit, in that moment of decision, that they may be able to make the right choice, do not always! Some still harden their hearts.

But the way you tell it, they are saved first, then their will is free to agree. I don't believe that is the proper way to look at it.

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Of DaveB

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So my point is, yes, man makes a choice to believe or not believe, as the call of the gospel commands all men to believe. The bible also teaches that dead sinners will never make that choice, until God regenerates them.

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And this belief is called "Faith" and "Faith" is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9), lest any should boast. Human decision may be a response to this conversion, but human decision is never the "cause" of salvation. God did not wait for Saul to "accept Christ". Indeed as we see in John 1:13 and previously in 1 Cor 2:14 God is proactive in making spiritually alive people, out of spiritually dead people.

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• Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

• 1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
  1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

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There are not two faiths, simple and profound. There is one faith, and it comes from God. Whether simple or complex, all saving faith comes from God. We are commanded to tell all people to "believe" not because man can of himself believe, but because that is the method God uses to save those who he graciously decided to save.

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Well, I am dismayed that you believe that! I can not be convinced that God 'dictated' who would be saved. It is however another 'grey' area, hard to be understood. But I don't think that we should play God and pretend to understand.

That there are two faiths, God created man with the capacity to believe. If one believes, God our Lord will meet it. That a man has the capacity to believe, he therefore has the capacity to choose. This is apparently what happened to the thief on the Cross. Yet, in having a tender heart towards the Lord at the moment of their death, I do not think that he realized that he could be saved. He was just being both repentant (remorseful) and defensive of our Lord. Therefore when Jesus said that he would be in paradise that day, upon hearing, he must have 'believed'. For faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the one who can fulfill the promise. He chose Jesus before Jesus said a word to him.


 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Dave,
Are you suggesting that an individual can sincerely repent towards God and believe on the Lord Jesus and not be saved?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I'll repost this since you missed it. Did we have something to do with it; or were we 'determined' to be saved? After all, even after we believed, our free will chose to, or not to follow!

• Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

For 'what if' some did not 'believe'?

Shall their 'unbelief' make the "Faith of God," without effect?

Hum!

They have unbelief. God has faith! Is His faith 'of none effect' since they 'don't believe'? They sound separate, don't they?

Whew!

• Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ untoall and upon all them - that believe: for there is no difference:

• Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

See the act of the will here? If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, which is a willing participation, or acknowledgment!


Well Two faiths!

• Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith - of -Jesus Christ, even we have 'believed' in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith 'of' Christ[which is in us because we believed], and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

• Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is the faith 'of' God that works on our behalf. It is ineffective without our 'belief'. "and the life that I now live, live I by the 'faith of' the Son of God, who loved/loves me, and gave/gives Himself for me." Therefore, I believe 'in' the 'faith of'. What a match up !

This is belief: the faith 'in' His blood.

• Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

• Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

That means those who go to the alter in confidence that the 'faith of' Christ Jesus will save them, are putting 'faith in' Christ that the 'faith of' Christ may be manifest in them (which is to say - bear witness).

• Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Amen!

Read the word the way it is written and all is well. HE does not leave us in the dark!
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
DaveB

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This doctrine is false. It contradicts the biblical teaching on salvation, the nature of man, the love and unlimited atonement of God.

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Salvation is an act of God. Our response to this act is a transformed life which bears fruit. If there is no fruit, you are simply not a Christian. You can say "well I believe the gospels" or "I accepted Christ". If the biblical evidence of salvation is not present in your life, you are not a Christian, period, no matter how many times or how sincerely you have come forward at some altar call.

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Progressive Sanctification

Justification differs from sanctification thus: the former is an instantaneous act with no progression; while the latter is a crisis with a view to a process—an act, which is instantaneous and which at the same time carries with it the idea of growth unto completion .

2 Pet. 3:18—“But grow in [the] grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”

2 Cor. 3:18—We “are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit.” The tense is interesting here: We are being transformed from one degree of character, or glory, to another. It is because sanctification is progressive, a growth, that we are exhorted to “increase and abound” (1 Thess. 3:12), and to “abound more and more” (4:1, 10) in the graces of the Christian life.

The fact that there is always danger of contracting defilement by contact with a sinful world, and that there is, in the life of the true Christian, an ever increasing sense of duty and an ever-deepening consciousness of sin, necessitates a continual growth and development in the graces and virtues of the believer’s life.

There is such a thing as “perfecting holiness” (2 Cor. 7:1). God’s gift to the church of pastors and teachers is for the purpose of the perfecting of the saints in the likeness of Christ until, at last, they attain unto the fulness of the divine standard, even Jesus Christ (Eph. 4:11-15).

Holiness is not a mushroom growth; it is not the thing of an hour;



it grows as the coral reef grows: little by little, degree by degree. See also Phil. 3:10-15.

(The Great Doctrines of the Bible)
 

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Posted by abbasgirl4ever (Member # 7336) on :
 
I'm sooooo new here! Do we have a "head-spinning" emoticon? I read through this entire thread and just can't get my brain wrapped around it all.

I will fess up and say that I believe in once saved always saved... mainly because I believe that those that truly trust Christ will not desert Him. I also believe that the Holy Spirit will not leave me... ever. I trust that I am sealed in Him for the day of redemption. I believe it is possible to grieve Him, but I believe the word "grieve" is not equal to us running Him off. lupeo means to afflict with sorrow; to be sad; to offend. I don't think I'm powerful enough to run God off.

To the one who believes in Universal Salvation. Oh my. Could we just consider that the starting premise is wrong? I can't imagine we just throw out the words of Jesus because His audience happened to be to the Jew first. And really, salvation has ALWAYS been by faith. Salvation has NEVER been by the Law. Read Romans 1-7. The whole point is that the Law doesn't and has never saved. It was designed as a tutor to lead us to the ONE who saves, Jesus Christ; to show us that we can't keep the law, we can't be perfect. Abraham was not saved by works of the law. Abraham's salvation came through faith. He believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. He was justified by his faith. (And for those that believe that we are "regenerated" first... was Abraham regenerated first? The Holy Spirit's role in the OT was a bit different - Christ had not yet risen and ascended. Just wondering...) The point is... believers before the cross trusted in the coming Messiah by faith for their salvation. The works of the Law never saved... they only gave a picture of the one who was to come who could. The gospel is the same for both dispensations. And the gospel remains "believe on the name of the Lord and you will be saved" which, in my understanding, includes a belief that I cannot save myself and that I need a savior. In order for me to trust, I must renounce my independence and trust Jesus who alone can save me. That is an act of faith. Whether one believes you have to be regenerated first or whether one believes each one has a measure of faith already to believe... salvation is still by faith in the One Jesus Christ and His redemptive work. It is Christ in me that saves me and He does not inhabit every human being.

"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, becfause He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:13-15)

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." (1 John 5:11-13)

I believe I was chosen before the foundation of the world AND I believe that I make a choice to believe the gospel of Christ or not. I don't think it matters much how that is possible. God is always bigger than my questions. I don't think it matters much HOW God chose me as much as what He has chosen me to. Scripture teaches us that we are chosen to bear fruit, chosen to obey Jesus, chosen to be sprinkled with His blood; that we are predestined to salvation, adoption, inheritance, glory, being conformed to Christ's image... God doesn't really stoop to explain how He does it... He just says it's true.

I personally have no trouble believing that I am both chosen/predestined to adoption as His child and that I have a free will and can choose by faith to accept or reject Him. I just take off my shoes and realize this is holy ground and His word is true, whether I understand how or not. I believe the God is utterly sovereign. I believe man has a free will. In God's economy, I think He can lay those side by side (parallel truths that never cross, if you will) and that it works whether my little brain "gets it" or not. That's why I can love and appreciate those of you who fall in the Calvinist camp and those of you who don't. If you bear the fruit of salvation and the Holy Spirit indwells you as proof of the divine nature of Christ in you... you are my brother and sister. (and in my belief... you will always be)

And just as a side... God's love is across the board. You can't make Him love you more by your righteous acts. You can't make Him love you less by your mess-ups. He loves you as much as He loves His Son (John 17:23).

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him....for all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." Romans 8:9,14

There's so much freedom in resting in the grace of Christ and trusting that His divine power has given us every thing we need for life and godliness through truly knowing Jesus. In Him we have all we need. I don't know all the ways that the engine in my car works, but if I put gas in it, keep the engine in good repair, and turn the key, I have everything I need to get from point A to point B. I don't know all the ways God works, but if I stay filled up with the oil of the Spirit and keep the water-level of the word at full, when I turn the key and submit to His empowering, I'm changed from faith to faith, glory to glory, into the image of My Savior. I'll let Him worry about the way... I'll just trust in the Who.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
"Once saved always saved" is a mute point when considering Yahshua's own teachings on being "born again".......

13Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.

14But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.

15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.

16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?

17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.

18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].

19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.

20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.

21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.

22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?

23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

He (Yahshua) is the entrance of this there can be no argument, He is the only entrance....
verse 13-14 of Matthew Yahshua himself tells us many will not enter, the love of this world is so strong and peer pressure so great many will not even enter.....

Yahshua warned but most people don't heed warnings... Yahshua warned many false prophets would come telling people what they want to hear....don't fret over not gaining victory over sin in your life, you just a sinner saved by "Grace"... these false prophet make Yahshua's death and victory over sin just an abstract cliche ....

when in reality "Grace" is Yahweh's power in the life of the believer to overcome sin.

Grace enables the believer to after entering the gate (Yahshua) to walk the narrow path guided by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:13: “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”
(Does not this verse apply to the Christian?)

"Once saved always saved" as taught by most teachers become a false doctrine, promoting a blasphemous life style that will cause many to end up in an eternal hell.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
So Carol, what happened to the pillowhead mushroom?

And what happened to you becausehelives? I see you creeping back up. But you have been mighty quiet!
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Hi abbasgirl4ever

Welcome to the Christian BBS.

WOW, I like your post! Here's some more along the same lines...

The Father elected us. “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God” (v. 2). We are not told the basis of this election, it should be noted. However, God’s election is based squarely upon foreknowledge . Note: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate” (Rom. 8:29).

It should be quickly noted, though, that both man’s responsibility (Jn. 3:16; Rom. 10:13; Rev. 22:17) and God’s sovereignty (Eph. 1:4, 5) are clearly taught in the Bible.

In one single statement, our Lord combined both doctrines of election and free will. Note his words:

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me [this is election]; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out [this is free will]” (Jn. 6:37).


The sovereignty of God seems to contradict the freedom or actual responsibility of man. But even though it may seem to do so, the perfection of sovereignty is clearly taught in the Scriptures so must not be denied because of our inability to reconcile it with freedom or responsibility.

Also, if God is sovereign, how can the creation be so filled with evil?

Man was created with genuine freedom, but the exercise of that freedom in rebellion against God introduced sin into the human race. Though God was the Designer of the plan, He was in no way involved in the commission of evil either on the part of Satan originally or of Adam subsequently. Even though God hates sin, for reasons not revealed to us sin is present by His permission. Sin must be within God’s eternal plan (or God would not be sovereign) in some way in which He is not the author of it (or God could not be holy).

Sovereignty/freedom forms an antinomy (“a contradiction between two apparently equally valid principles”). Antinomies in the Bible, however, consist only of apparent contradictions, not ultimate ones . One can accept the truths of an antinomy and live with them, accepting by faith what cannot be reconciled; or one can try to harmonize the apparent contradictions in an antinomy which inevitably leads to overemphasizing one truth to the neglect or even denial of the other.

Sovereignty must not obliterate free will, and free will must never dilute sovereignty.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

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And carol said

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Even though God hates sin, for reasons not revealed to us, sin is present by His permission.

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Even though God hates sin, for reasons not revealed to us, sin is present by His permission.

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Sovereignty must not obliterate free will, and free will must never dilute sovereignty.

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Originally posted by WildB:
Its a shame that GreenCandel is free to teach Gnosticism and per mote The Gospel Of Thomas In Full ....

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002640

Wheres David on this?

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
KnowHim said "DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website."

DaveB said:

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The biblical gospel states that Jesus paid for the sins of those he had come to save (the elect, as Jesus himself says ). At some pre-determined time in their life, God applies the payment of Jesus' to the elect sinner through the hearing of the word of God, gives them a new nature (being born again john 3:3) and imputes Jesus' righteousness to their account. The result of this is a sinner living a transformed life, marked by repentance, prayer, forgiveness, hatred for his or her sin, love for Christ, God and man etc.

The presupposition of the biblical gospel (sometimes derisively labeled "Calvinism") is that all men are sinners with free-will. Because the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, man will always use his free-will to choose sin and will never, of his own free-will, accept Christ or repent. This is because the nature rules the will and our natures will not accept the spiritual things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Thus being "born again" requires an act of God, changing the nature, which rules the will. Thus "coming forward", "repentance" are "responses" to being born again, instead of "causes" of being born again.

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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1


posted March 17, 2008 16:35

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No more warnings. DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website.

Calvanism is based on a limited and crippled understanding of Scripture.

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http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005455;p=1

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carol responded

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Instead of reading this as, 'God hates sin but we aren't told why'

Try reading it as, 'God hates sin. For His own reasons He allows it to be present.'

In fact, I'm going to change the comma in that sentence.

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carol responded

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Instead of reading this as, 'God hates sin but we aren't told why'

Try reading it as, 'God hates sin. For His own reasons He allows it to be present.'

In fact, I'm going to change the comma in that sentence.

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Try reading it as, 'God hates sin, and HE cannot even 'look' upon it!' Therefore HE paid a terrible price of not only leaving the comfort of Heaven to come to earth, but to suffer humiliation, rejection, and a bloody death to reconcile us to Him. HE doesn't 'tolerate' sin per se. That isn't the way to look at it. He endures it much like the way that HE stated that HE "suffers" divorce, because they were going to do it anyway.

But He died to provide us a way to aviod it! No one sees that. It is too convenient to ignore!


~! !~

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Election - We don't choose Him. He chose us before the foundation of the earth. This is a work of God.

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Harrison sed

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Rom 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate." Something to ponder: Does this mean that HE 'determined'? Or, does this reveal that HE 'knew' who would choose Him? Therefore, HE foreknew by realization who would, rather than, He determined who would. We should let God be God, and the commission be the commission.

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• Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

For 'what if' some did not 'believe'?

Shall their 'unbelief' make the "Faith of God," without effect?

Hum!

They have unbelief. God has faith! Is His faith 'of none effect' since they 'don't believe'? They sound separate, don't they?

Whew!

• Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by the faith of Jesus Christ untoall and upon all them - that believe: for there is no difference:

• Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

See the act of the will here? If you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, which is a willing participation, or acknowledgment!


Well Two faiths!

• Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith - of -Jesus Christ, even we have 'believed' in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith 'of' Christ[which is in us because we believed], and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

• Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It is the faith 'of' God that works on our behalf. It is ineffective without our 'belief'. "and the life that I now live, live I by the 'faith of' the Son of God, who loved/loves me, and gave/gives Himself for me." Therefore, I believe 'in' the 'faith of'. What a match up !

This is belief: the faith 'in' His blood.

• Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

• Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

That means those who go to the alter in confidence that the 'faith of' Christ Jesus will save them, are putting 'faith in' Christ that the 'faith of' Christ may be manifest in them (which is to say - bear witness).

• Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Amen!

Read the word the way it is written and all is well. HE does not leave us in the dark!
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
This is fun. I like discussing these things. However, let's not forget that we are one in Christ, and this means that we can disagree on the non-essentials, but we should never divide over them. Now, if we disagree on the essentials, that's cause to start breaking yokes.

That being said, I suppose that the presumption is that belief is proof of free will. Or as GreenCandle might put it: belief = free will. This is a false presumption. There is a process that takes place before a man is able to believe on Christ. The Father must draw him. In essence, the belief is implanted in him. For it is written:

John 6:35-45
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." 41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven." 42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, `I have come down out of heaven'?" 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, `AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."

So, I'll ask again, what part of salvation does man play? Do we enact it? Or do we just testify of it? I would argue that we simply testify of it.

In Christ,
Billy.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Well, the pain in the message is, did God 'draw' the unbeliever away? Did HE 'choose' him to be hell bound? What do we say to someone like that, too bad for you, because God 'chose' me?

He does draw us by His Spirit. But HIS drawing does not equal choosing for them?

I am sure that HE drew many people over the years who nevertheless rejected Him. Consider it like offering a frightened dog a biscuit. Does the dog warm up to you to get the biscuit, or does it cling to what it understands, trusting in itself for whatever else it can find? The offer is there, which is like HIS Spirit drawing you. But will the right decision be made?

It is important to realize that God wanted people who would choose Him. This is the story of Abraham. Only, in the case of Issac, Abraham wasn't choosing God, except to the extent that he was choosing to obey. But HE was choosing God over sin and separation. Being here in this life is about 'choosing' God. If HE wanted to create people who had already chosen Him, He would have created us like the angels. They didn't get to choose. Blessed are we who do. Powerfully blessed are we who are fortunate enough to 'choose' HIM. Because HE desires such. Amen!
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Billy,
I would like to discuss the word "draw" with you as it is used by Jesus in the gospels. Jesus states that "No man can come unto Me unless My Father draws Him". No argument there. What can we say. Jesus said it that makes it so. The disagreement I have with others is that they take this word "draws" and they define it as a single event (for ex: a quickening of the spirit, or being born-again), but I contend that Jesus may not be using that word in that particular way.

First of all, it appears Jesus is honoring His Father with that statement.....gloriyfying Him as the source of all things. If we look at the OT and the NT we see God drawing men to him through all kinds of works/manifestations among the people. In the NT, God is certainly drawing individuals to Jesus by the miracles, signs, and wonders manifested through Him.

What do you think?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Matthew 22:1 - 14 (NLT)

1Jesus also told them other parables. He said, 2“The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! 4“So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ 5But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. 6Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them. 7“The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. 8And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. 9Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ 10So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. 11“But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. 13Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The Spirit of God is bearing witness through the Word to the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is the Spirit who convinces the world of sin (John 16:7-11). The Spirit can be resisted by unbelievers (Acts 7:51), but nobody knows that crisis hour (if there is one) when the Spirit stops dealing with a lost sinner.

Matthew 22:11-14 seems like an appendix to the parable, but it is vitally important. The wedding garment was provided by the host so that everybody was properly attired. Salvation is personal and individual. We must accept what God gives to us—the righteousness of Christ.

The wedding clothes picture the righteousness needed to enter God’s kingdom—the total acceptance in God’s eyes that Christ provides for every believer (Isaiah 61:10). Christ has provided this garment of righteousness for everyone, but each person must put it on (accept Christ’s gracious provision of his life given for us) in order to enter the King’s banquet (eternal life).
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Matthew 22:13

“Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’” (NIV)

In Jesus’ parable, he moved beyond normal reality (for this would never happen in real life) to teach a spiritual truth. In the final judgment, God’s true people will be revealed. Claiming to belong at the wedding feast while refusing to wear the correct garments was like the nation of Israel claiming to be God’s people but refusing to live for him. Like the wicked tenants who deserved “a wretched end” (21:41), so this impostor at the banquet found himself tied up and thrown outside into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth—a common biblical description of hell (see also 8:12; 13:42, 50).

Eternal Insecurity?

Does this passage in Matthew teach the eternal insecurity of all who claim faith in Christ? No, but neither does it give a blank check for all who march the sawdust trail. That kind of religion reduces faith to a life insurance policy. Once signed, it may be forgotten until death, when its terms come due. This is not Christian faith. Eternal insecurity, however, reduces faith to a guessing game in which we all hope not to be the one tossed away on Judgment Day. This is not Christian faith. Christian faith is living in a new relationship to God, characterized by love and proven by faithful service.

God’s love will never let you go, but don’t be presumptuous. If you recited the sinner’s prayer twenty years ago and haven’t thought of God since, wake up—you’re fooling no one. God calls you to a life of love and service. Follow it in faith every day.


Matthew 22:14

“For many are called, but few are chosen.” (NKJV)

Those who are called but reject God’s invitation will be punished, as will those who seem to accept the call but fail to follow through. The use of the word “called” means “invited”. The invitation had gone out to all Israel, but only a few had accepted and followed Jesus. Jesus was applying this teaching to the Jews, who believed that because they were descendants of Abraham, they would be sure to share in the blessings of God’s kingdom through the Messiah. But Jesus taught that not all those invited would actually be among the chosen of God. As Jesus had noted earlier, “Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13 NIV).

(Life Application Bible Commentary: Matthew)
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Billy,
By the way, I do agree with you that no man should boast. Even an individual who believes in free-will should humble himself by the reason that God is the One who has given him the ability to choose his response. A man exalts free-will if He forgets the source of all blessing. Believing in free-will does not necessarily mean that free-will is exalted above measure.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by abbasgirl4ever (Member # 7336) on :
 
I just thought I'd throw a wrench in the discussion... I personally don't have any problem with standing in the middle of God's Sovereign choice and Man's Free Will. I see them both in scripture, and though I don't get how it can be possible, I just attempt to take my shoes off and stand on holy ground. God can manage two seemingly contradictory truths and make them work in His economy.

With that said, here is the wrench...
"And a certain woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul." Acts 16:14

If this was a jewish worshiper's conversion experience... I personally see both sides of the coin... whatcha think?
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

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Of Carol

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Eternal insecurity, however, reduces faith to a guessing game in which we all hope not to be the one tossed away on Judgment Day. This is not Christian faith. Christian faith is living in a new relationship to God, characterized by love and proven by faithful service.

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It is no guessing game. If someone saved, hardenes their heart because they are overcome with sin, and thereafter they prefer it, they know what is going to happen to them. They have chosen anew. If however someone trusts, believes and hopes, I have no doubt that they will be ok! They are not slapped into the hoosegow because they could not find out how to walk on water. (Nevertheless if they were not at all interested, there may be reason for concern.) It isn't just that God is looking for just any reason to cast someone into hell. That would make just about everybody insecure. But only the fearful would infer that that is what I have claimed!
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

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• 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

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Michael wrote:
Well, the pain in the message is, did God 'draw' the unbeliever away? Did HE 'choose' him to be hell bound? What do we say to someone like that, too bad for you, because God 'chose' me?

He does draw us by His Spirit. But HIS drawing does not equal choosing for them?

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I am sure that HE drew many people over the years who nevertheless rejected Him. Consider it like offering a frightened dog a biscuit. Does the dog warm up to you to get the biscuit, or does it cling to what it understands, trusting in itself for whatever else it can find? The offer is there, which is like HIS Spirit drawing you. But will the right decision be made?

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It is important to realize that God wanted people who would choose Him. This is the story of Abraham. Only, in the case of Issac, Abraham wasn't choosing God, except to the extent that he was choosing to obey. But HE was choosing God over sin and separation. Being here in this life is about 'choosing' God. If HE wanted to create people who had already chosen Him, He would have created us like the angels. They didn't get to choose. Blessed are we who do. Powerfully blessed are we who are fortunate enough to 'choose' HIM. Because HE desires such. Amen!

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Hi Billy,
I would like to discuss the word "draw" with you as it is used by Jesus in the gospels. Jesus states that "No man can come unto Me unless My Father draws Him". No argument there. What can we say. Jesus said it that makes it so. The disagreement I have with others is that they take this word "draws" and they define it as a single event (for ex: a quickening of the spirit, or being born-again), but I contend that Jesus may not be using that word in that particular way.

First of all, it appears Jesus is honoring His Father with that statement.....gloriyfying Him as the source of all things. If we look at the OT and the NT we see God drawing men to him through all kinds of works/manifestations among the people. In the NT, God is certainly drawing individuals to Jesus by the miracles, signs, and wonders manifested through Him.

What do you think?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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quote:

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Matthew 22:1 - 14 (NLT)

1Jesus also told them other parables. He said, 2“The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. 3When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! 4“So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ 5But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. 6Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them. 7“The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. 8And he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. 9Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ 10So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. 11“But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. 12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. 13Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

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Does this passage in Matthew teach the eternal insecurity of all who claim faith in Christ? No, but neither does it give a blank check for all who march the sawdust trail. That kind of religion reduces faith to a life insurance policy.

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Billy,
By the way, I do agree with you that no man should boast. Even an individual who believes in free-will should humble himself by the reason that God is the One who has given him the ability to choose his response. A man exalts free-will if He forgets the source of all blessing. Believing in free-will does not necessarily mean that free-will is exalted above measure.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Billy,
By the way, I do agree with you that no man should boast. Even an individual who believes in free-will should humble himself by the reason that God is the One who has given him the ability to choose his response. A man exalts free-will if He forgets the source of all blessing. Believing in free-will does not necessarily mean that free-will is exalted above measure.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Michael wrote:
If someone saved, hardenes their heart...

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Michael wrote:
This is like the arguement with zeena about the old man being dead. He is not! Scripturally yes, he is.

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1John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

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1John 1 -
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

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8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

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9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

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10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

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1John 2 -
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

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3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

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7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.

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Good evening Billy,
Yes I agree, the Lord surely deserves our praise and worship. He was never under any obligation to share His existence with us. But here we are as evidence of His love. Not only that, to a sinful, ungrateful, and rebellious world God still decided to sacrifice His Son so that we may be able spend eternity with Him in His Holy presence. I wish everyone believed that God deserves all of our praise and worship ......but no, many would rather say "How could a loving God make a place like Hell?" May God help us reach them.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Billy said:

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Say what?!? Either the old man is dead or he's not. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. Which is it?

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And yew sed

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You have repeatedly posited that I read the Bible to get what I want out of it.

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And more

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Does this say that we have no sin, if we are in Christ? No. It says that we will not walk in it.

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Pretty simple. True converts will, out of a newness of heart, strive to be just like Jesus. If this is not the case, you have cause for concern. Period.

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They are imposters who would best serve themselves to hit their knees and ask the Lord to please do a sovereign work in their hearts that they may come to repentance and faith in Him. That's what I see in that passage.

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Matthew 22:1-14


Jesus Christ, Kingdom of God —Jesus’ coming represented God’s invitation to Israel to attend the banquet honoring Messiah. They refused to participate. To refuse to honor God’s Son is to reject the Father. God in grace invites all people to His kingdom. Compare Lk 14:16-24. We must attend His feast on His terms, not ours.

Election, Free Will —The Jews had the first opportunity to be part of God’s kingdom. Having rejected Jesus, they will discover that the believing Gentiles, whom they considered to be last, will join the Jewish faithful remnant as members of God’s elect. The inheritance of God is given not as earthly inheritances are, by priority of birth and seniority, but by God’s good pleasure. People have freedom to reject God’s invitation through indifference, wrong priorities, and hostility. God’s invitation continues to go out without preconditions as to membership in social classes or achievement of ethical standards. Election depends on God’s grace to all people , not on accident of birth or human works. Acceptance of God’s invitation must be in accord with His standard of repentance. Without meeting this standard, one faces expulsion and judgment. In free exercise of will humans respond to God’s call to join the elect. Proper response in faith and repentance means a person is among the elect.

The Church, God’s Kingdom —The kingdom of heaven includes those whom others reject. Entrance into God’s kingdom depends on His goodness, not on social rank or good deeds. The kingdom’s membership is limited. Just being part of the human race or having a vague belief in some kind of God does not qualify you for membership. You must accept God’s invitation on His conditions of repentance and faith.

(Disciple’s Study Bible)
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 

quote:

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Michael wrote:
What, dear billy, or anyone else, is the evidence that one is dead? It is inactivity! Yet it is easier to see evidence that someone is alive. That would be anything that is not Christ. It would be actions, and reactions which are not Jesus.

We have to understand if we are truly seeking, that when the scripture talks about one's being dead, that it doesn't mean that there is no threat of any manifestation, which shows resurrection of that dead person, who is who we were without Christ. Dead, according to what is described in the verses is by faith, just like 'life' is by faith. Therefore, dead is not reality when faith unto life is not perfect. In otherwords, you are in denial if you claim you are dead, and two minutes ago you were cursing someone. You are in denial if you 'claim' you are dead because 'scripture says so', yet when asked to carry cookies out to the clan, you first went through them and took out the biggest for yourself.

We have a dead man who as a monkey on the back, is only dead by faith, as that faith is operational. He is not dead, unable to respond, and done with, that is the end of it - until we leave this earth! It is why Paul had to "stay dead daily." (1Cor15:31) In the mean time he is more like in suspended animation, as long as we have faith unto righteousness. That is the kind of dead that we are. We are dead to self, only as we are 'alive to God', and we come out of suspended animation whenever we do not trust.

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And yew sed

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You have repeatedly posited that I read the Bible to get what I want out of it.

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You and eden! I do not mean for you to take this personal. It is 'you' plural, meaning eveyone does this up until the point that they discover something really neat, which is beyond one's self. It just goes to show that the old nature will take everything personal. But pardon me if I inadvertently made it sound direct and personal. I speak in general. But even to speak in general is to sound 'critical' as though making a personal attack. Yet listen to Paul! Take it personal and see if it is not the same. Read it as if he is saying it directly to yu.

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I wrote:
Now Michael,
You have repeatedly posited that I read the Bible to get what I want out of it. You have plenty of opportunity to make your case. Quote me and quote the scripture that I'm interpreting. Then show me where my interpretation is flawed. I do this for you. If it is indeed flawed, the Lord will show me the error of my ways, and I will repent. It is not my intention to create for myself a false idol. I truly desire to seek out the God of the Bible, in all His glorious truth.

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In truth, we 'have no sin' if we are walking in the light.

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The correct model for this is, do not daily confess your sin: Rather, do not sin so that you have nothing to confess. What am I saying? You mean that I mean to say that one can go through a day without sinning? NOT, if you don't believe it. And just because one accuses you of sin doesn't make it true, though one should consider with humility what is said.

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This is self righteousness. Plain and simple. How can Christ live in you if you refuse to humble yourself? Or did you not read the entire passage:

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Would you continue to deceive yourself by claiming that you have no sin in your life? I am not here to tell you how you've sinned. However, I know that you do sin, daily, because the Bible says it!!! JOHN SAYS IT!!! Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

And again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

And again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Is John a liar or are you? This epistle was written to Christians, and John includes HIMSELF in this verse, when he uses the all inclusive pronoun we. Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Though you will not listen to me, I beg you. Listen to scripture. Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Why am I doing this? Because John says so clearly that he writes these things so that you might know that you are saved. If you disagree with John on these points, at any point, you have reason to be concerned. Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, so if John says that the truth is not in you, in fact he is saying that Jesus is not in you.

Michael,
I plead with you, examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. Do it today! Search the scriptures. Read 1John. Let it cut you. Read Galatians 5. Let it cut you. Let God break you. Let Him show you your true state. Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
 

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Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :
 
Actually, John was speaking to the Gnostics who believed they had no sin.

John states that he wrote to give assurance of eternal life to those "who believe in the name of the Son of God" (5:13)

The uncertaintainty of his readers about their spiritual status was caused by an unsettling conflict with the teachers of a false doctrine.

John refers to the teachings as deceitful (2:26, 3:7) and to the teachers as "false prophets" (4:1) liars (2:22) and antichrists (2:18, 22, 4:3)

They had once been within the church, but had withdrawn(2:19) and had "gone out into the world" (4:1) to propogate their dangerous heresy.

The heresy was a forerunner of 2nd century Gnosticism, which taught that matter is essentially evil and spirit is essentially good.

This dualistic viewpoint caused the false teachers to deny the Incarnation of Christ and, hence the Ressurrection.

The true God, they taught, could never indwell a material body of flesh and blood. Therefore, the human body that Jesus suppposedly possessed was not real, but merely apparent.

John wrote vigorously against this error (2:ss, 23 4:3)

They also taught that since the evil human body was merely an envelope for the spirit within, and since nothing the body could do could affect the inner spirit, ethical distinctions ceased to be relevant. Hence,THEY HAD NO SIN.

John answered this error with indignation (2:4, 6 15-17 3:3 7,9.10 5:18)
 

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Posted by Billy (Member # 7193) on :
 
We can agree that John was writing to address the issue of the heresy of the Gnostics, though we don't know if it was even referred to as gnosticism, back then, but was certainly the birthings of what would become gnosticism. However, the group that he was addressing were believers, and he was writing to give them an accurate depiction of the Christian life, so that they may have assurance, if indeed they were saved. It is for this reason that we can look at 1John in order to determine whether or not we are in fact saved. He leaves no room for second guessing. If you deviate from what he is revealing through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then you have cause to inquire of the King as to whether or not you are truly saved. Regardless of whom he is addressing, the statement rings true...

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

And, as I pointed out before, the we in this statement leaves zero doubt as to whom he is addressing. He is referring to not only believers, but all believers, including himself. So are we to conclude that there are two types of Christianity? That there is the heresy that the sinner John is teaching, here, and there is the real truth that is taught by the perfect, sinless Michael (as well as the gnostics)? Quite the opposite. If God chose John as an apostle and as the one to whom He would give His Revelation, I am apt to side with him, not Michael. Michael states that true belief leads to sinless perfection. John says that those who make this claim of themselves do not have the truth in them. Who are you going to believe?

In Christ,
Billy.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
yahsway good post


Purpose of 1 John

To reassure Christians in their faith and to counter false teachings.

If it is true that John wrote these letters to certain local churches in Asia—especially to those around Ephesus—one of the reasons that prompted his first epistle was that a heretical faction had developed within the church, a faction that promoted heretical teachings concerning the person of Christ. Scholars have identified this heresy as Docetism generally and pointed specifically to Cerinthus as the perpetrator of the specific brand of Docetism.

The Docetists denied that Jesus had actually become flesh and blood; they denied that God had come in a human body (see 4:1-3). According to Irenaeus, Cerinthus “represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was more righteous, prudent, and wise than other men. Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the unknown Father, and performed miracles. But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassable, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being”. John refuted the Cerinthian heresy in 5:5-8.

The heretical faction within the church (or churches) that John was addressing eventually left the fellowship. In so doing, they exposed the reality that they did not genuinely belong to God’s family (2:18-19). But their false teachings still lingered in the minds of the faithful. So John wrote to clear the air of all the falsehoods and bring the believers back to the pure beginning of the gospel and to the basics of the Christian life. John urged his readers:

* to have fellowship with God in the light

* to confess their sins

* to love God

* to love their fellow Christians

* to abide in Christ

* to purify themselves from worldly lusts

* to know God personally and experientially

* to appreciate the gift of eternal life

* to follow the Spirit of truth (and the anointing) in discerning false teachings

* to esteem Jesus Christ as the true God

Above all these items, John stressed how necessary it was for the early believers to maintain a proper relationship with those who had been with Jesus. In the prologue (1:1-4) to 1 John, he invites all the believers to participate in the one apostolic fellowship. Fellowship is a two-way, simultaneous experience: both with fellow believers and with God. This is to safeguard against pseudospirituality and extreme individualism. Throughout this first letter, John seems to have been addressing his comments to those who were claiming to have a relationship with God, yet had left the fellowship of believers and did not love the brothers and sisters in Christ.

Concerning Sin (1:5-10; 2:1-2, 12-17; 3:4-9; 5:16-21).

Even Christians sin. Sin requires God’s forgiveness, and Christ’s death provides it. Determining to live according to God’s standards in the Bible shows that believers’ lives are being transformed.

Throughout this epistle, John calls into question all professed spirituality. These are presented in a series of statements (usually phrased “if we say”) that probably mimic what various Gnostic believers were claiming about their spiritual experiences (for example, see 1:6, 8; 2:4, 6, 9). Talk is cheap; reality must be tested by one’s relationship with the members of the church community. John urged the believers to know the truth and to live in it.

We cannot deny our sin nature, maintain that we are above sinning, or minimize the consequences of sin in our relationship with God.

We must resist the attraction of sin, yet we must confess when we do sin.

Be honest with yourself and with God. Admit your sin to him and live in the freedom of his forgiveness.


(Life Application Bible Commentary: 1, 2, & 3 John)
 

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Posted by kjw47 (Member # 7230) on :
 
Hi Friends, At Acts 3:19 It says repent and turn around ( stop doing the sin, not just asking forgivness and doing this pattern over and over. ) to get our sins blotted out. Jesus sacrafice is for repented sin.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Billy, you really are very tiring. If the scriptures do not convince you, how will I even start?

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John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Would you continue to deceive yourself by claiming that you have no sin in your life? I am not here to tell you how you've sinned. However, I know that you do sin, daily, because the Bible says it!!! JOHN SAYS IT!!! Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

And again...

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Your position is that one 'abides' in sin. That is the 'condition' of the believer. Don't tell it to me. Tell that to Jesus!

• 1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our 'fellowship' is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

• 1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

• 1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

• 1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

• 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
  1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

• 1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
• we have fellowship one with another,
• and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
• cleanseth us from all sin.

• 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

• And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

• 1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
  1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
  1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
  1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

• 1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; [and cause you to sin]
  
  [LIST] Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
  Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

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Michael wrote:
Your position is that one 'abides' in sin. That is the 'condition' of the believer.

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I will add this disclaimer. I have some pretty humiliating defeats when it comes to my faith, but it is not the norm. It is the exception. And it is not, I will remind everybody, that "I" am able. It simply is the provision of God which we walk in by 'faith' if we trust and believe. I deserve no credit as though I can 'rise above'. I simply, "Believe God, and it works in me [is accounted to me for] righteousness. You do not have to sin in thought or deed.

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I wrote:
Did Lazarus choose to be resurrected?

You responded:
Yes he did, read on….

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44)

How can we then choose to be brought out of spiritual death?

When Yahweh the Father calls respond….The term "faith-rest", and its definition , are understood from the Scriptures in Hebrews 4:1,2 "Let us therefore fear lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them, but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Salvation is a “Promise” but if the individual does not act on what he has heard it will be dead.

Lazarus heard Yahshua call out his name, Lazarus was bound hand and foot, the symbol; of all who are dead in sin, but he choose to obey Yahshua’s words, mixed what Yahshua said with faith he came out of the tomb. ….

But Lazarus could have just laid there and said is HE crazy, I can not get up I’m bound hand and foot. Somebody is going to have to do this for me.

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How can we then choose to be brought out of spiritual death?

When Yahweh the Father calls respond….

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All who will be saved will be saved the same way by Grace through Faith.

Understanding that Grace is Yahweh’s divine power and ability to do His will imparted to the believer by Yahweh and acting on that fact by faith is all that will save any individual.

Look at the picture of the very first Passover... the only reason the death Angle passed over was because of the Blood... but the Blood had to be applied just as they were told...

they mixed Faith (action) (obedience) with what they had been told.... this is a picture painted with words for all who will see.

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I wrote:
We have not the ability to choose Him apart from His regenerating work.

Your response:
Never try to separate the Sovernity of Yahweh and the responsibility of man…to do so will always bring about false doctrine. If you have Yahweh's Grace, you have the ability and never forget it....

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All is to and far the Glory of Yahweh to those that truly believes and understands.

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No individual should ever boast about anything, pride in every form is an abomination before Yahweh for no one, be they King, President, Dictator, Millionaire, Billionaire , Hero of any sort… sports, police, fireman or soldier owe all they are to the Glory of Yahweh. Yahweh humbles who He wills and promotes who he wills, to accomplish His purposes in the earth.

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Yahweh is the Gentlest of all Gentlemen; he has never and never will force any to be His child. He lovingly calls...

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he tenderly shows His love to all…. Yahweh is not a terrorist that says if you do not do as I say I will kill your children and make you suffer all the days of your life to you change your mind….

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No, no, a thousand times no He love us even when we are against Him...

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...and desires all to repent, not just a chosen few.

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Don’t let your theology make Yahweh out to be a monster…..

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For Yahweh is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kind, Gentle, Patient, and Faithful...

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Yahweh does not desire that any perish but that all come to repentance.

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...if Yahweh peradventure will
give them repentance...

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How easy it is to build a straw man out of someone's argument and then knock it down. This is not at all what I've said. We do not abide in sin, though we do sin. We are not perfect, as you suppose. We are being perfected. There is a difference.

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The other form of holiness has to do with sanctification, in which we work with the Holy Spirit in an effort to "be holy as [He is] holy."

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• Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

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Ephesians 6:12 -
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

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So, would you say that you affirm both the doctrine of regeneration (that we are new creatures in Christ) and the doctrine of biblical assurance, in that, if we can give the "Amen" to 1John, we have assurance that He Who began a good work in us will see it through to the end?

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Originally posted by kjw47:
Hi Miss swenson. Jesus own words at Matt 7: 21-23 disproves the osas theory. These are people who do powerful works in the name of Jesus ( christians ) out of a great love for Jesus i would say. And were told they were saved ( they obviously believe in Jesus ) Yet Jesus never even knew them. either they were saved but lost it, or they were never saved at all. Kind of raises the question, Why are these ones being told that they are saved?

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Where does it say that they loved Jesus, or were told they were saved? They said " We did these things in Your Name."

But, we don't do anything of ourselves. The Holy Spirit bears fruit through us that is pleasing to the Lord.

Matthew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven .” (NRSV)


Jesus was distinguishing between lip service and real discipleship. It is much easier to profess Christianity than to possess it.

Those who will enter the kingdom of heaven are only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. To do God’s will implies a relationship with God —the ability to communicate with him, know his will, and then be able to perform it. Such “fruit” reveals one who will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Lip Service

Jesus is not impressed by thoughtless and heartless piety. Superficial religion might satisfy the casual observer, but Jesus demands obedience from the inside out.

Many are tempted toward pretense and dishonesty. A shell of spirituality may preserve our reputation with others, but it undermines real growth. We are deluded if we think that God might be fooled by fake holiness. God desires “truth in the inner parts” (Psalm 51:6 NIV).

How can we prepare for this judgment? By doing God’s will. Obedience to His will is the test of true faith in Christ. The test is not words, not saying “Lord, Lord,” and not obeying His commands. How easy it is to learn a religious vocabulary, and even memorize Bible verses and religious songs, and yet not obey God’s will. When a person is truly born again, he has the Spirit of God living within (Rom. 8:9); and the Spirit enables him to know and do the Father’s will. God’s love in his heart (Rom. 5:5) motivates him to obey God and serve others.

The two ways tell us to examine the cost of our profession. Have we paid a price to profess faith in Christ?

The two trees tell us to investigate whether our lives have really changed. Are there godly fruits from our lives?

And the two houses remind us that true faith in Christ will last, not only in the storms of life, but also in the final judgment.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Wild B,
Yes, yes, yes. What you say is true. What some of us are tying to emphasize is what it actually means to "believe" on the Lord Jesus. Jesus states that if we are to be a disciple of His, we are to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. We are to live a life of committed discipleship under His Lordship no matter what the cost. Jesus preaches repentance.....therefore it is necessary for us to repent. Jesus preaches forgiveness.....therefore it is necessary to forgive......Jesus teaches us to love one another.....therefore it is necessary to love one another. If we forgive not, we will not be forgiven, If we show no mercy, we will receive no mercy, if we repent not, we will not be forgiven, if we humble not ourselves, we will not be lifted up in the day of the Lord.

Believing in Jesus = trusting in His Words to us.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Sin = selfishness

God = love

Discipleship = love God above all and love others as ourselves.

Love = (you answer)
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Love = (supply) He is infinite!
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
1 Corinthians 13:4 -7 (NRSV)

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

A: When? When the race is run; when you have overcome.

Q: But I always thought that I got saved now.
A: You are born again if you have believed in Jesus, but you are not saved until in that final moment, you commend your spirit to Him.

Q: If I die right now what will happen?
A: You'll be saved. You are an overcomer.

Jesus is the gift of eternal life. Eternal life is not a pronouncement. It is not something in itself. It is Jesus. Therefore one must be in good standing with Him. The relationship must be sound. Why? If it is not, one is on the judgment side of eternal life.

Q: Am I not saved now?
A: It is confusing isn't it. If you have eternal life abiding in you, you are saved. But one can grieve the Spirit of God with outrageous sin. The spirit cannot abide by that one who is distancing him or herself from Him, eternal life. Repentance will be necessary before he or she can be restored to God's good graces. If that does not occur, one will die in their sin. "There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin." It will be as though you turned against Him.

Life everlasting is a person with whom we must have a sound relationship, or we deceive ourselves. That would be an eggregious thing to have done. Because you see, it is with our participation that this thing is seen through. Without it, we do not have what we may insist we do.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
It is the teaching of the Apostle Paul (Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: )That members of the Body of Christ living in the dispensation of Grace are ETERNALLY secure in him. ( Rom 8:35-39; Phil 1:6)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

and


Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Here is an example of what 'rightly dividing' means. When it says that "no one can separate us from..." that means anyone that opposes our decision, such as those who persecute us cannot separate us from Him. It doesn't mean that we cannot oppose ourself, which is known as being overcome with sin.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God”

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When it says that "no one can separate us from..."

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• Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
  Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
  Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

• In that they were enlightened, (and you compared with other uses of the word in other places in the epistles), they had come to a participatory knowledge of God. Therefore, they knew Him.

• This was further reinforced in the statement that followed which stated 'clearly' that they were made partakers, of the Heavenly Gift.

• When elaborating on the word tasted, you defended that it had the strength of meaning that they were, as already stated, participatory in the grace of God, in that they knew Him, insomuch as they were enlightened, and you illustrated that Jesus 'tasted' death for us all, ruling out the possiblility that 'tasted' meant only that they had, either head knowledge of Christ, or some other superficial consideration short of salvation. Clearly, in that it says that they tasted the 'power' of the world to come, means that they were fully aware of the reality of it.

But here is where I didn't like your answer. "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." For you seemed to think that they had turned their back on God to such a degree that they could not repent. That was how you determined how it was to be explained. Rubbish! (Sing joy!)

You see, brother Crowell, it is in the reading. (And you used the Greek on the previous passages to emphasize their meaning.) For it is impossible if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance [as long as]; they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." For God will not overrule their will.

What this means is not that Jesus would have to be re-crucified, as you have stated, in order for them to be saved 'again', which no sacrifice remains for. You sited this verse: (Heb 10:26) "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," to explain your theory that the sacrifice of Jesus was rejected, and had therefore permanantly expired for that one. However, when the verse says that it is impossible, if they should 'fall away' to renew them again to repentance, because they crucify afresh the Son of God, it is because they cannot be renewed without 'repentance'. For when one rejects the provision of God by being overcome, they in effect put Jesus back on the cross for as long as they are in sin. So, take it to mean that they are not 'automatically' renewed, by the act of Jesus dying on the cross, because they 'willfully' reject the work of the Cross, and you will begin to understand. For the unwilling 'remove' themselves from the Cross, and place Jesus back there by their actions.

So, getting back to the beginning of this dissertation, one can himself separate himself from the love of God, at least insomuch as he removes himself from its redeeming value. And the way you do this is verified in other parts of scripture, which is by 'unbelief'. Unbelief will separate you, and the verses above do not rule that out. They mention anything external, that anyone else can try to do to separate them from the love of God, but not what one's self can do. And we have right here in scripture a powerful explanation of what that is about.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 


What should a believer do who has drifted away into spiritual doubt and dullness and is deliberately despising God’s Word? He should turn to God for mercy and forgiveness. There is no other sacrifice for sin, but the sacrifice Christ made is sufficient for all our sins . It is a fearful thing to fall into the Lord’s hands for chastening, but it is a wonderful thing to fall into His hands for cleansing and restoration. David said, “Let me fall now into the hand of the Lord; for very great are His mercies” (1 Chron. 21:13).
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Suppose it were true that a person once saved could be lost again.
Suppose such a person, to gain heaven, would then have to be saved
all over again.
But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second
time and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire—after
having once been “saved”?
In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was
he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire.
Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died
a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence of
sin. None on this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.
What was he saved from then? The answer is: Nothing at all.
He may have thought he was saved. He may have felt saved. He may
have acted as though he were saved. His friends may have thought he
was saved but, in the final analysis, he was saved from nothing.
Salvation, to be anything more than a mere term, must be everlasting.
Any person who has been saved has been eternally saved. No one is
saved until he is eternally saved. Anyone who dies in a lost condition
never was saved at all.
Does this mean we must wait until after this life is over to find out? No.
We may be saved now and know it. This is evident from such passages as
I Corinthians 1:18, where the Apostle Paul refers to “us which are saved.”

How can we be saved?

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”—that’s what to do.
“And thou shalt be saved”—that’s when you get it (Acts 16:31).
And “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”—
that’s how long it lasts (Rom. 6:23).
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Yes, yes Wild B.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (thats what to do)

So what does Jesus tell us that we must do?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22)

To the fact these people had said the sinners prayer there is no doubt... but they are lost, they are damned to an eternal hell...

Instant coffee, instant tea, instant potato, instant oatmeal, instant rice, instant pudding and lot of other instant things exist but...

instant Salvation does not exist...

all things instant are man made manipulations , abnormalities of the real....

all things Yahweh has created, including Salvation are progressive....seed time and harvest...

yet foolish teachers preach instant new birth....

Yahweh have mercy on all the poor soul who have believed that wretched message and all who teach that wretched message....

The True Gospel is one Gate, one entry point (Yahshua) but the Gospel does not stop there according to Yahshua... He said after you enter there is a path, a narrow path that must be traveled... it is called the Highway of Holiness...it is straight and narrow and few will travel it...

that's all
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

---

But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second
time and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire—after
having once been “saved”?
In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was
he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire.
Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died
a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence of
sin. None on this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.

---

quote:

---

Hi Mr. Harrison, To be born again, what does this mean? Is it something handed to us?

---

• Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

If you 'know' someone, you know what they will do, do you not? You know what they feel. You have an idea how they think, huh? Then you 'know' someone. But if HE is not in you by faith, you only know 'about' Him.

quote:

---

Or is it by the changes that we make in our own lives by applying every utterance of God?

---

• Luk 12:26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?

quote:

---

Enduring till the end. Thats alot for a sinner to accomplish in this world. It will be the hardest thing one can ever accomplish. Satan makes it that way on us.

---

• Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

• Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

So, we cannot apply every utterance of God except by letting HIM be who HE is to us, and through us, unless of course, HE is not in us (or we are not trusting!).
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I just became aware in the past few days that when scripture says 'saved', it doesn't mean from that moment on. You are 'born again' which is to be saved, however, you are saved in the moment, when, and as you trust Jesus. And you must 'trust' Jesus all the way till you reach the 'promised' land - to be 'saved'. So in that sense, 'saved' could be future tense. So, just because it says, "Thou shalt be saved," it doesn't mean right then when you believe.

In short, the term 'saved' has confused a lot of people who think that it is something that you get, and you have it! But salvation is in a relationship. Therefore one must have 'relationship' which saves. Therefore if one is out of relationship, and he or she thinks he or she will still be saved, well, I cannot encourage you to believe that. For in the parable of the talents, the man who received one talent, did not 'develop' the relationship. That was the return that Jesus was looking for. In fact, he didn't even try. He took it for granted, and what did he do? He buried the talent (relationship). Dig?
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
A horse to H20
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
Dig? To bury the talent? No way.

"Talent" being skill, (represented by coins).

Skill being the gift the Holy Spirit gives to each believer to use in service to the body of Christ.

We have been assigned our ministries according to the abilities and gifts God has given us. It is our privilege to serve the Lord.

Can't make him drink the H2O, but he can be splashed a little.
 

---

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

---

Dig? To bury the talent? No waaaaaaaay.

Talent being skill.

Skill being the gift the Holy Spirit gives to each believer to use in service to the body of Christ.

---

• Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:

---

Dig? To bury the talent? No waaaaaaaay.

Talent being skill.

Skill being the gift the Holy Spirit gives to each believer to use in service to the body of Christ.

---

Here is more evidence that you don’t read. Yet you are willing to comment. So, just who are you in this for? Carol?

Dig? To bury the talent? That is not what my words said. DIG, means to find Christ the way that HE commands us to and not lie to ourselves about our relationship.

Talent being skill? Not even remotely. The talent was a ‘payment’. It was the wealth of the owner “Imparted” to the “Man who received only one talent.” The talent represents what God gives us of His Spirit. This man ‘buried’ what God had given him, which implies that he did not value the relationship such that he would ‘cultivate‘ it. And this has nothing to do with “Digging” to find the Pearl of Great Price, which means to “UNCOVER” Jesus, that ‘relationship’ which has “GREAT WORTH.” So why do you p on me and attempt to hurt the faith of others? Will HE not judge you in this?

Skill is useless. Your natural ability means not much to God. Natural ability can only build ‘wood, hay and stubble’. One would be better informed to ‘trust’ in God. But one cannot do that if he or she is not really in relationship with the “Living God!”

Wylb! You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him think. You can lead someone to scripture, but you cannot make him think!

• Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi all.
Some very intense and interesting debate going on in this thread. May I mention that so many quote scripture from anywhere in the bible, and apply it to us as an example for the point you are trying to make.
Many scripture from the four gospels are used as an example for us, when it was meant for Israel. Matt. 15:24, the very words of Jesus says...24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." His teaching was to "Israel", we had no part in this era. See Eph.2:11-12...11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. Notice "AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD"
We gentiles were not included until Israel rejected Christ and crucified Him, and when again rejected, God turned to the 'nations'. See Acts.13:46 ...46 Being bold, both Paul and Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of eonian life, lo! we are turning to the nations.
One must remeber to "correctly cut the word of truth", (2Tim.2:15).
ALL SCRIPTURE IS FOR US, but ALL SCRIPTURE IS NOT ABOUT US.
So when trying to make a point, quote scripture that is relevent to whom it was spoken too, only Pauls epistles are about us. Yes, yes, yes, All is FOR us, but not all is ABOUT US!

Blessings, Jerry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Chosen One,
Would you please give a few more examples of quoted scriptures that have been used by members that are being used improperly---another words-----teachings that are "not for us".
I think it not profitable to make that sort of statement and then not go on to discuss the specifics. Its like saying "well, you just want to see scripture the way that you want", but not really caring if another is getting what they should from the scriptures. We can, I believe, all learn from each other. I believe there are frequent fellowshippers here who do love the Lord very much.

If I am hearing your right, you are not suggesting that none of the gospel teachings are for us?

With love in Christ, Daniel

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Chosen One,
Would you please give a few more examples of quoted scriptures that have been used by members that are being used improperly---another words-----teachings that are "not for us".
I think it not profitable to make that sort of statement and then not go on to discuss the specifics. Its like saying "well, you just want to see scripture the way that you want", but not really caring if another is getting what they should from the scriptures. We can, I believe, all learn from each other. I believe there are frequent fellowshippers here who do love the Lord very much.

If I am hearing your right, you are not suggesting that none of the gospel teachings are for us?

With love in Christ, Daniel

---

quote:

---

He sent His Son "Jesus" to them as the 'promised Messiah'. His (Jesus) teaching was to them only (Matt.15:24). Many, I would say most, quote His words as if they were spoken to all.

---

quote:

---

FROZEN CHOSEN (may I call you that?

quote:

---

Hi all.
Some very intense and interesting debate going on in this thread. May I mention that so many quote scripture from anywhere in the bible, and apply it to us as an example for the point you are trying to make.
Many scripture from the four gospels are used as an example for us, when it was meant for Israel. Matt. 15:24, the very words of Jesus says...24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." His teaching was to "Israel", we had no part in this era. See Eph.2:11-12...11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. Notice "AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD"
We gentiles were not included until Israel rejected Christ and crucified Him, and when again rejected, God turned to the 'nations'. See Acts.13:46 ...46 Being bold, both Paul and Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of eonian life, lo! we are turning to the nations.

---

---

I suggest that you do the work so that I will not have to. There were gentile believers in the true God, including the most famous, Rahab the harlott. To that end such are even mentioned in the gospels using the name proselytes. So gentiles were a part of God's happening upon the earth.

There are things to look at concerning Jesus' words when HE walked on earth. He spoke as being under the law, and HE spoke to Israel (and proselytes). But we had this discussion already. Unfortunately you are unable to see how what HE said, far more often than not, applies to us also, insomuch as they apply to the Kingdom of which Israel, and we are a part. But His words are about HIM, concerning who HE is, which necessarily makes them to apply to any who are in relationship to Him. If you were in relationship with HIM you would see how these apply to you, for the Kingdom is Spiritual, which is unseen. Yet what you see His verbiage applying to, is what you can see. What you see HIS words indicating is only a part of their meaning - a very small part. You 'limit' His words to 'situational' or positional relevance according to the dispensation of the law. However, what you overlook is that the speaker is not limited by these, and was in fact the very institution of a new way, even as HE spoke. Therefore His words apply to that new way, and distinguish between thold and the new.

I challenge you to illustrate whatever I use as applying only to the old dispensation, as to Israel, with no relevance to the New. In the 'limitations' which you impose, they may make sense to you in the way that you understand them, even as the doctrine of the different factions of Christianity make sense to those who 'prefer' one above another. But they are fruitless if they do not manifest Christ in the life, or sanctify one to Him.

You deserve the likes of wylb. May he praise thee often!
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Jerry,
I am concerned about the way that you are viewing the gospel of Jesus.

Is'nt Peter making reference to both Jews and Gentiles in this passage?.........

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God. and...

is'nt Paul adressing gentiles (Thessalonica) in this passage?

2Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do apologize if I mis-quoted you. I was really concerned with the statement you made about Jesus' gospel teachings being only for Israel.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

---

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Jerry,
I also read that link that Wild B provided. I would like to ask you a question that is related to something taught in that link.

The book of Revelation has 7 letters to 7 churches which are from Jesus. Would you say that the warnings that Jesus gave to those churches do not apply to us because we were not from those churches?

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

---

Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Jerry,
I am concerned about the way that you are viewing the gospel of Jesus.

Is'nt Peter making reference to both Jews and Gentiles in this passage?.........

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God. and...
is'nt Paul adressing gentiles (Thessalonica) in this passage?

2Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do apologize if I mis-quoted you. I was really concerned with the statement you made about Jesus' gospel teachings being only for Israel.

With love in Christ, Daniel

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Jerry,
I also read that link that Wild B provided. I would like to ask you a question that is related to something taught in that link.

The book of Revelation has 7 letters to 7 churches which are from Jesus. Would you say that the warnings that Jesus gave to those churches do not apply to us because we were not from those churches?

With love in Christ, Daniel

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi WildB.
Thank you. A very good explanation in that website you included, I appreciate it.

Blessings, Jerry.

---

Heres another good tool...




http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/slindex/searchlightindex.html Berean Searchlight Scripture Index

We now offer an online Berean Searchlight Scripture Index. You can look up a verse and see where it has been discussed in the Berean Searchlight. This index includes every verse used in Searchlight articles from 1987-2007. The Scripture Index is available as a webpage or a Microsoft Excel file.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Jerry,
In reference to the question that I had asked you about Peters passage........ "if it first begins with US, what shall be the end of THEM, I am highlighting "them" and "us" for the reason that I do believe that in Peters use of the word "us" in this passage he is referring to himself and all other Jews(assuming "house of God" is Israel), and then assumably "them" would refer to all other gentile nations. So to clarify my point about Peters passage..........

I did not state that Peter was adressing the gentiles per se in that passage, but that it sure does appear that he is making reference to the gentiles by use of the word "them"

Thank you for the response to my question that I had for you about revelation. Neither do I understand the entire book of Revelation......but I do believe that I do understand some of it. In my opinion, I do believe it important to try and understand what Jesus is saying, because He is all peoples, all nations intercessor to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by chosenone (Member # 7272) on :
 
Hi Michael.
FROZEN CHOSEN (may I call you that?

I don't mind what you call me. "Sticks and stones..."

There were gentile believers in the true God, including the most famous, Rahab the harlott. To that end such are even mentioned in the gospels using the name proselytes. So gentiles were a part of God's happening upon the earth.

I have no argument with that statement, All creation is "Gods happening". Have I made a statement negative to that?

I challenge you to illustrate whatever I use as applying only to the old dispensation, as to Israel, with no relevance to the New. In the 'limitations' which you impose, they may make sense to you in the way that you understand them, even as the doctrine of the different factions of Christianity make sense to those who 'prefer' one above another. But they are fruitless if they do not manifest Christ in the life, or sanctify one to Him.

I would be pleased to accept your "Challenge" if I could figure out what you are saying. If you could reword your statement in simpler terms, expressing exatly what point you are trying to make, then I would gladly try and answer your challenge.

Blessings, Jerry.
 

---

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi Michael.
FROZEN CHOSEN (may I call you that?

I don't mind what you call me. "Sticks and stones..."


I would be pleased to accept your "Challenge" if I could figure out what you are saying. If you could reword your statement in simpler terms, expressing exatly what point you are trying to make, then I would gladly try and answer your challenge.

Blessings, Jerry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
However, the epistles are the derivitive of the Gospels, which are a derivitive of the OT.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Of course Jerry. And we are to conclude from 'correctly cutting' that everyone will be saved? That is like claiming that HE is only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. As I read it, that would include me. "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but in the circumcision of the heart." It was 'expedient' that HE would say that at that time to that woman, for HE had not ascended yet. Prophecy was not yet fulfilled! It was the only proper way that HE could answer her, then till all things were fulfilled. But His statement was not implying that His words were not 'truth' for the generations to come. They are as much about us, 'concerning who HE is' (and what HE does). So whatever HE said about Himself and His Kingdom, HE said for everyone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Jesus came for one reason, that was to impliment the New Covenant. Therefore His words were for those to whom the New Covenant would apply, at the same time they were 'against' those who would reject Him.

---

quote:

---

Christ died for all mankind, He has "justified" us all, paid our penalty for sin. We are now "under Grace", both Jew and Gentile, there is no difference in this era. What I amd saying is, we are not to dismiss Christs sacrifice, or His Name, just because His message was to the Jews. But because His sacifice was for ALL. We are deeply indebted to Him as the Saviour of all.

---

quote:

---

Many believe we are now under the "New Covenant", have a look at verse 11, ..."for all shall be aguainted with Me" (God). Think about it, are "ALL" aquianted with God Now? I don't think so!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:

---

Christ died for all mankind, He has "justified" us all, paid our penalty for sin. We are now "under Grace", both Jew and Gentile, there is no difference in this era. What I amd saying is, we are not to dismiss Christs sacrifice, or His Name, just because His message was to the Jews. But because His sacifice was for ALL. We are deeply indebted to Him as the Saviour of all.

---

Not all benefit! There is participation which is 'going under the Cross'. If there is no replacement, which is what is involved by going under the Cross, then we are still under sin, and condemned. Our life 'is' condemned unless we find where to hide in Him. What is automatic, is only so if we have participated through faith, by belief, receiving HIS life, to displace ours.

quote:

---

Many believe we are now under the "New Covenant", have a look at verse 11, ..."for all shall be aguainted with Me" (God). Think about it, are "ALL" aquianted with God Now? I don't think so!

---

Who do you mean all? If one claims the benefit of His Justification, they had better 'know' Him. Else they serve only a concept, which they 'think' will materalize.

---

quote:

---

Again you say "Who do you mean all" If you understand that the quote was from the book of "Hebrews", and the "all", means all Jews, to whom this book was written.

---

quote:

---

WE ,gentiles, were never under the "Old Covenant", that was with Israel. We are now under "Grace". The "New Covenant", which is still future, will be made with the "house of Israel and with the house of Judah", Heb.8:8-12 For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
2 Peter 2

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.

For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.

There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.

the scriptures need no explanation, they just need honest hearts that love the Truth more than the doctrines and traditions of men....

the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" is from the pit of hell and will snare many to go there!

---

quote:

---

WildB and Carol you presume to know more than Yahweh...

what you are saying is every backslider will be saved even if they never repent from known sin they are living in....

---

Romans 3:8 (NLT)
And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
The whole point is, not to take for granted our salvation. That is the main thing. I mean, if someone you love, who loves you, gave you something, would you distain it? You certainly would not tell them it was pathetic, or unneeded. You would be diligent to appreciate them, rather than take a chance on offending them.

Salvation is not like that however. Yet, we can distain it by our actions, if we are not careful. That is all!
 

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Posted by The Beauty of Holiness777 (Member # 7380) on :
 
Jesus said I will never leave you nor will I forsake you. Yes, Jesus is faithful to His word.
But it is man that is not faithful to his.

God will never leave us but some have fallen from the faith and return back into their old ways of sin. They have left God.

That is why in the book of Revelation God is given them a chance to repent and come back.

Revelation 2:4-5
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thy hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence THOU ARE FALLEN, AND REPENT, AND DO THE FIRST WORKS; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

The theory "Once saved always saved" is true only if one stays saved.

There is no way one can say they are still saved and go back into sin and sin continously and think they will go to heaven. That can only happen if they come back to their senses and repent of their backsliding and return back to God.

Other than that they will go to the lake of fire just like the others who have rejected Christ for God has no respected of persons. And HE don't play "Let's make a Deal" for "It's God's ways or Hell's Ways.

For God has no pleasure in those on puts their hands to the plow and look back. For they are not fit for service in the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:62)

No debate here just facts.
AND TO GOD BE THE GLORY!!
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB and Carol you presume to know more than Yahweh...

what you are saying is every backslider will be saved even if they never repent from known sin they are living in....

I am sad to see such presumption ...

I pray you do not lead some little one to go astray by your false teaching....

for the word says ...in Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Mar 9:43-50
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Here the scriptures are talking about the body and to what extremes should be taken not to go to the Lake of Fire.....

remember 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yahshua can and will do all to preserve His Body, if you are a member of His Body and are a Cancer or some other deadly disease threatening infecting the rest of the Body Yahshua will remove you....

---

quote:

---

Matthew 12:31

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

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