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Author Topic: Once Saved Always Saved ?
WildB
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A horse to H20

--------------------
That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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I just became aware in the past few days that when scripture says 'saved', it doesn't mean from that moment on. You are 'born again' which is to be saved, however, you are saved in the moment, when, and as you trust Jesus. And you must 'trust' Jesus all the way till you reach the 'promised' land - to be 'saved'. So in that sense, 'saved' could be future tense. So, just because it says, "Thou shalt be saved," it doesn't mean right then when you believe.

In short, the term 'saved' has confused a lot of people who think that it is something that you get, and you have it! But salvation is in a relationship. Therefore one must have 'relationship' which saves. Therefore if one is out of relationship, and he or she thinks he or she will still be saved, well, I cannot encourage you to believe that. For in the parable of the talents, the man who received one talent, did not 'develop' the relationship. That was the return that Jesus was looking for. In fact, he didn't even try. He took it for granted, and what did he do? He buried the talent (relationship). Dig? [wiggle7]

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Hi Mr. Harrison, To be born again, what does this mean? Is it something handed to us?
kjw47, It is 'someone' handed to us. "He IS the way, the truth and the life." (John 14:6) We 'live' by His life. In our sinful state we overlook that! It is why scripture says that we are to 'sell all', and purchase the Pearl of Great Price. (Companion to that is the verse Php 3:8.) For we are to commit to Him with such abandon, and in such trust, that we 'receive' Him as our life. That is why the verse says that HE 'IS' the way, truth, and the life, if we would realize HIM to be so.

  • Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


If you 'know' someone, you know what they will do, do you not? You know what they feel. You have an idea how they think, huh? Then you 'know' someone. But if HE is not in you by faith, you only know 'about' Him. [Razz]


quote:
Or is it by the changes that we make in our own lives by applying every utterance of God?
We cannot change our own lives. To even try is sin. Does this mean that our lives don't change? Au contrair! If we know what it means to let Jesus in, and to let Him rule, then, and only then will our lives be changed. Because we cannot change a thing. Hear this?

  • Luk 12:26 If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?


You see, we cannot love. So if we try to obey what we think it means, we don't succeed. Only Jesus can love. And if we have Him, then 'BY' Him we love, and it is HIS love, not our efforts. Remember, HE is the way, the truth, and the life. So you can take that to mean that HE is the 'way' that you love. But it will not happen unless you are sold out to HIM. (Remember the verse about selling all that you have to purchase the pearl?)


quote:
Enduring till the end. Thats alot for a sinner to accomplish in this world. It will be the hardest thing one can ever accomplish. Satan makes it that way on us.
Enduring to the end is also HIS battle. We 'let' Him do it, and we are not disappointed. What we find if we try is that we fail. The reason we need a savior is because we need someone who will not fail.

And concerning that satan makes it hard on us:

  • Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


All things should make us trust and see His hand in all things. For we are not expected to deliver whenever ugly things face us; but we are to let HIM deliver. Then we are resting in Him, depending upon Him, and expecting Him, and HE never fails. Morever we realize that HE is in us, and:

  • Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


So, we cannot apply every utterance of God except by letting HIM be who HE is to us, and through us, unless of course, HE is not in us (or we are not trusting!).

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Carol Swenson
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Hope of salvation does not mean the hope that at last we will be saved. A person can know today that he is saved and going to heaven. Paul knew that the Thessalonican believers were saved (1 Thes. 1:4), and he was certain that he and they would meet Christ in the air (1 Thes. 4:17). The person who confidently says, “I know I am saved!” is not exhibiting pride; he is demonstrating faith in God’s Word. First John was written to help us know that we are saved (1 John 5:9-13).

Hope of salvation means “the hope that salvation gives to us.” There are actually three tenses to salvation: (1) past—I have been saved from the guilt and penalty of sin; (2) present—I am being saved from the power and pollution of sin; (3) future—I shall be saved from the very presence of sin when Christ returns. The blessed hope of our Lord’s return is the “hope of salvation.” Unsaved people are without hope (Eph. 2:12).

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kjw47
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Hi Mr. Harrison, To be born again, what does this mean? Is it something handed to us? Or is it by the changes that we make in our own lives by applying every utterance of God? Most seem to think that eternal life is just going to be handed to them, but in the previous post, the narrow path was mentioned- only these will get salvation, grace, eternal life, these are the only true children of God. And it says-- Few will find it. By learning and applying every utterance of God helps one be on this path, but there are alot of other requirements on the humans part as well. Like- Love, Faith, repentence, baptism, Taking in true knowledge. accepting Jesus as savior. Enduring till the end. Thats alot for a sinner to accomplish in this world. It will be the hardest thing one can ever accomplish. Satan makes it that way on us. God hates sin with his whole being, so does one on the narrow path. God had to watch his son die at the hands of men because of sin. Those on the narrow path practice not sinning, because they learned and applyed every utterance of God.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second
time and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire—after
having once been “saved”?
In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was
he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire.
Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died
a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence of
sin. None on this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.

\\

You need to re-read your Bible. If you are not saved from the presence of sin, you have no faith in Jesus.

And scripture says that we are 'born-again' when we believe in Jesus. That is, everlasting life abides in us when we are born again. But to be 'saved', everlasting life must be in us to the end.

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becauseHElives
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Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (Matthew 7:22)

To the fact these people had said the sinners prayer there is no doubt... but they are lost, they are damned to an eternal hell...

Instant coffee, instant tea, instant potato, instant oatmeal, instant rice, instant pudding and lot of other instant things exist but...

instant Salvation does not exist...

all things instant are man made manipulations , abnormalities of the real....

all things Yahweh has created, including Salvation are progressive....seed time and harvest...

yet foolish teachers preach instant new birth....

Yahweh have mercy on all the poor soul who have believed that wretched message and all who teach that wretched message....

The True Gospel is one Gate, one entry point (Yahshua) but the Gospel does not stop there according to Yahshua... He said after you enter there is a path, a narrow path that must be traveled... it is called the Highway of Holiness...it is straight and narrow and few will travel it...

that's all

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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oneinchrist
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Yes, yes Wild B.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (thats what to do)

So what does Jesus tell us that we must do?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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Suppose it were true that a person once saved could be lost again.
Suppose such a person, to gain heaven, would then have to be saved
all over again.
But suppose the person in question never did get saved the second
time and, departing this life a lost man, went finally to the lake of fire—after
having once been “saved”?
In what sense, then, was he first saved? What was he saved from? Was
he saved from the penalty of sin? No, for he did not escape the lake of fire.
Was he saved from the power of sin? No, for he fell back into sin and died
a lost man. And most assuredly he was not saved from the presence of
sin. None on this side of heaven have yet been saved from that.
What was he saved from then? The answer is: Nothing at all.
He may have thought he was saved. He may have felt saved. He may
have acted as though he were saved. His friends may have thought he
was saved but, in the final analysis, he was saved from nothing.
Salvation, to be anything more than a mere term, must be everlasting.
Any person who has been saved has been eternally saved. No one is
saved until he is eternally saved. Anyone who dies in a lost condition
never was saved at all.
Does this mean we must wait until after this life is over to find out? No.
We may be saved now and know it. This is evident from such passages as
I Corinthians 1:18, where the Apostle Paul refers to “us which are saved.”

How can we be saved?

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ”—that’s what to do.
“And thou shalt be saved”—that’s when you get it (Acts 16:31).
And “the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”—
that’s how long it lasts (Rom. 6:23).

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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 -

What should a believer do who has drifted away into spiritual doubt and dullness and is deliberately despising God’s Word? He should turn to God for mercy and forgiveness. There is no other sacrifice for sin, but the sacrifice Christ made is sufficient for all our sins . It is a fearful thing to fall into the Lord’s hands for chastening, but it is a wonderful thing to fall into His hands for cleansing and restoration. David said, “Let me fall now into the hand of the Lord; for very great are His mercies” (1 Chron. 21:13).

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Michael Harrison
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Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I don't know about the NLT. I don't see that exact parallel in the KJV. But...


  • Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Ol Woodrow Kroll of Back To The Bible, today elaborated on these verses. He listed 4 possibilities of how they could be interpreted. Brother Kroll, there was a lot of good stuff in your analogy, but I would like to suggest a fifth. First however, you came to the same conclusion as I concerning that:

  • In that they were enlightened, (and you compared with other uses of the word in other places in the epistles), they had come to a participatory knowledge of God. Therefore, they knew Him.


  • This was further reinforced in the statement that followed which stated 'clearly' that they were made partakers, of the Heavenly Gift.


  • When elaborating on the word tasted, you defended that it had the strength of meaning that they were, as already stated, participatory in the grace of God, in that they knew Him, insomuch as they were enlightened, and you illustrated that Jesus 'tasted' death for us all, ruling out the possiblility that 'tasted' meant only that they had, either head knowledge of Christ, or some other superficial consideration short of salvation. Clearly, in that it says that they tasted the 'power' of the world to come, means that they were fully aware of the reality of it.


But here is where I didn't like your answer. "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." For you seemed to think that they had turned their back on God to such a degree that they could not repent. That was how you determined how it was to be explained. Rubbish! (Sing joy!)

You see, brother Crowell, it is in the reading. (And you used the Greek on the previous passages to emphasize their meaning.) For it is impossible if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance [as long as]; they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." For God will not overrule their will.

What this means is not that Jesus would have to be re-crucified, as you have stated, in order for them to be saved 'again', which no sacrifice remains for. You sited this verse: (Heb 10:26) "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," to explain your theory that the sacrifice of Jesus was rejected, and had therefore permanantly expired for that one. However, when the verse says that it is impossible, if they should 'fall away' to renew them again to repentance, because they crucify afresh the Son of God, it is because they cannot be renewed without 'repentance'. For when one rejects the provision of God by being overcome, they in effect put Jesus back on the cross for as long as they are in sin. So, take it to mean that they are not 'automatically' renewed, by the act of Jesus dying on the cross, because they 'willfully' reject the work of the Cross, and you will begin to understand. For the unwilling 'remove' themselves from the Cross, and place Jesus back there by their actions.

So, getting back to the beginning of this dissertation, one can himself separate himself from the love of God, at least insomuch as he removes himself from its redeeming value. And the way you do this is verified in other parts of scripture, which is by 'unbelief'. Unbelief will separate you, and the verses above do not rule that out. They mention anything external, that anyone else can try to do to separate them from the love of God, but not what one's self can do. And we have right here in scripture a powerful explanation of what that is about.

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Carol Swenson
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1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God”

quote:
When it says that "no one can separate us from..."
It means what it says

Romans 8:38 - 39 (NLT)
38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow— not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love . 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Michael Harrison
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Here is an example of what 'rightly dividing' means. When it says that "no one can separate us from..." that means anyone that opposes our decision, such as those who persecute us cannot separate us from Him. It doesn't mean that we cannot oppose ourself, which is known as being overcome with sin.
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WildB
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It is the teaching of the Apostle Paul (Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: )That members of the Body of Christ living in the dispensation of Grace are ETERNALLY secure in him. ( Rom 8:35-39; Phil 1:6)

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


and


Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

--------------------
That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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[Bible] Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

A: When? When the race is run; when you have overcome.

Q: But I always thought that I got saved now.
A: You are born again if you have believed in Jesus, but you are not saved until in that final moment, you commend your spirit to Him.

Q: If I die right now what will happen?
A: You'll be saved. You are an overcomer.

Jesus is the gift of eternal life. Eternal life is not a pronouncement. It is not something in itself. It is Jesus. Therefore one must be in good standing with Him. The relationship must be sound. Why? If it is not, one is on the judgment side of eternal life.

Q: Am I not saved now?
A: It is confusing isn't it. If you have eternal life abiding in you, you are saved. But one can grieve the Spirit of God with outrageous sin. The spirit cannot abide by that one who is distancing him or herself from Him, eternal life. Repentance will be necessary before he or she can be restored to God's good graces. If that does not occur, one will die in their sin. "There remaineth no more sacrifice for sin." It will be as though you turned against Him.

Life everlasting is a person with whom we must have a sound relationship, or we deceive ourselves. That would be an eggregious thing to have done. Because you see, it is with our participation that this thing is seen through. Without it, we do not have what we may insist we do.

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Carol Swenson
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1 Corinthians 13:4 -7 (NRSV)

Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
 -

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Michael Harrison
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Love = (supply) He is infinite!
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Carol Swenson
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Sin = selfishness

God = love

Discipleship = love God above all and love others as ourselves.

Love = (you answer)

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oneinchrist
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Hi Wild B,
Yes, yes, yes. What you say is true. What some of us are tying to emphasize is what it actually means to "believe" on the Lord Jesus. Jesus states that if we are to be a disciple of His, we are to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. We are to live a life of committed discipleship under His Lordship no matter what the cost. Jesus preaches repentance.....therefore it is necessary for us to repent. Jesus preaches forgiveness.....therefore it is necessary to forgive......Jesus teaches us to love one another.....therefore it is necessary to love one another. If we forgive not, we will not be forgiven, If we show no mercy, we will receive no mercy, if we repent not, we will not be forgiven, if we humble not ourselves, we will not be lifted up in the day of the Lord.

Believing in Jesus = trusting in His Words to us.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by kjw47:
Hi Miss swenson. Jesus own words at Matt 7: 21-23 disproves the osas theory. These are people who do powerful works in the name of Jesus ( christians ) out of a great love for Jesus i would say. And were told they were saved ( they obviously believe in Jesus ) Yet Jesus never even knew them. either they were saved but lost it, or they were never saved at all. Kind of raises the question, Why are these ones being told that they are saved?

Where does it say that they loved Jesus, or were told they were saved? They said " We did these things in Your Name."

But, we don't do anything of ourselves. The Holy Spirit bears fruit through us that is pleasing to the Lord.

Matthew 7:21

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven .” (NRSV)


Jesus was distinguishing between lip service and real discipleship. It is much easier to profess Christianity than to possess it.

Those who will enter the kingdom of heaven are only those who do the will of my Father in heaven. To do God’s will implies a relationship with God —the ability to communicate with him, know his will, and then be able to perform it. Such “fruit” reveals one who will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Lip Service

Jesus is not impressed by thoughtless and heartless piety. Superficial religion might satisfy the casual observer, but Jesus demands obedience from the inside out.

Many are tempted toward pretense and dishonesty. A shell of spirituality may preserve our reputation with others, but it undermines real growth. We are deluded if we think that God might be fooled by fake holiness. God desires “truth in the inner parts” (Psalm 51:6 NIV).

How can we prepare for this judgment? By doing God’s will. Obedience to His will is the test of true faith in Christ. The test is not words, not saying “Lord, Lord,” and not obeying His commands. How easy it is to learn a religious vocabulary, and even memorize Bible verses and religious songs, and yet not obey God’s will. When a person is truly born again, he has the Spirit of God living within (Rom. 8:9); and the Spirit enables him to know and do the Father’s will. God’s love in his heart (Rom. 5:5) motivates him to obey God and serve others.

The two ways tell us to examine the cost of our profession. Have we paid a price to profess faith in Christ?

The two trees tell us to investigate whether our lives have really changed. Are there godly fruits from our lives?

And the two houses remind us that true faith in Christ will last, not only in the storms of life, but also in the final judgment.

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Michael Harrison
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Who are these people? It isn't anyone I know. But something is up! I surely believe that something out of the ordinary is coming. That is why I do not feel that people should rush to judgment about who these people are. What miracles will they perform? We don't know. It just says stuff. The key here is, they (it says) perform them. There is a difference between being used by God, and something happens, and magicianship. Anyone, n e 1, can be used by God, if they will let Him. "For without faith it is impossible to please God." But these people will be able to perform something miraculous. I can imagine a scenario wherein a Mormon, who is perhaps genetically altered, has some ability that is abnormal. And beleive me, we are in the age wherein this is becoming possible. But Christians would refuse such tampering, but not necessarily others. Therefore there may be some type of thing such as this going on. But we don't know how to define it yet.
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kjw47
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Hi Miss swenson. Jesus own words at Matt 7: 21-23 disproves the osas theory. These are people who do powerful works in the name of Jesus ( christians ) out of a great love for Jesus i would say. And were told they were saved ( they obviously believe in Jesus ) Yet Jesus never even knew them. either they were saved but lost it, or they were never saved at all. Kind of raises the question, Why are these ones being told that they are saved?
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Michael Harrison
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I simply make the case! You either accept or deny. I am not dismayed, nor distainful. Your words simply give rise to the occasion to illustrate! Thus have I. Of course, I would persuade you if I could, but you are on one road, and I another, though they may meet somewhere else down the road. I still rejoice! May you also.
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Billy
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Carol,
I believe our spirited debate has fizzled. Here's what it comes down to...

1) You and I believe different things.
2) You and I both base our beliefs on scripture.
3) Scripture cannot contradict scripture.
4) Our differing understandings of a non-essential doctrine should not lead to our dividing, but our unifying on the essentials.
5) Perhaps we should focus our efforts elsewhere.

I look forward to our further discussions.

Michael,

There will be no winning between us. We have two different methods of interpreting scripture. I believe that I have used proper hermeneutics and exegesis. You don't believe that I have. I don't think we will ever agree. Thus, let us either focus on how we can agree with one another, or let us part ways. In the future, if we disagree, we can simply say, "I disagree," and leave it at that. Otherwise, I don't think we will ever find common ground. This is not an unchristian conclusion. Paul and Barnabas parted ways over how to deal with Mark. They did not let their disagreement destroy their love for Christ or for the church. I humbly suggest that we follow their example so as not to cause others to stumble.

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Carol Swenson
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Billy
quote:
So, would you say that you affirm both the doctrine of regeneration (that we are new creatures in Christ) and the doctrine of biblical assurance, in that, if we can give the "Amen" to 1John, we have assurance that He Who began a good work in us will see it through to the end?

I believe in Regeneration, and I believe in Eternal Security (OSAS). And Progressive Sanctification. I don't know what the doctrine of biblical assurance is.

I need to make a list I can post whenever someone asks me. (And as I learn more I can add to my list).

The one thing we don't agree on is the doctrine of Election. I believe the Jews are the Elect, (the remnant), and Gentiles are grafted in. As individuals, when we receive our Lord Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, we are added to the company of the Elect. Yes, the Holy Spirit works on our hearts before we come to faith, but everyone is offered the same invitation. Those who go to the Lake Of Fire have chosen their fate by rejecting Jesus Christ; they were not predestined to eternal torment without a choice.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Ephesians 6:12 -
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Our 'struggle' is not as much a 'struggle' except in the sense that it is "to believe in me," if we were quoting Jesus. That word struggle, says to the carnal mind that we apply ourselves to the accomplishing of what only He can do, and which we rather, can walk in 'for free'. We don't have to try to overcome what HE is overcoming. Our strength is not sufficent to "add a single cubit to our stature." In other words, we can't. But HE carries us, if we let. That is why I say that there is only one set of footprints in the sand, if we are obedient in understanding. Let Him carry you. Only He can perform the performing. Then HE will do works!

It is a mere formality that it must be said

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Billy
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You know what. I'm done. Take your argument to 1John and see if you win. Read your Bible, man.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Billy
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Abiding in Him, we will naturally do good works. Thus we are 'working' with Him.

James 2: 18,20&26 -
But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." . . . But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? . . . For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

It is not a sin to struggle along with the Holy Spirit in spiritual matters.

Ephesians 6:12 -
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

I fear that, at this point, you are just trying to be argumentative.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Michael Harrison
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For faith is accounted to us as righteousness. That faith is the faith that believes in the finished work which reconciles us to Him, and in the same breath sanctifies us unto Him, from sin. It is faith that accomplishes for us what HE has already done (not our doing). Faith is our ticket, not the work of striving or trying. But if one does not believe that....

  • Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


In other words, if one believes in HIM, they believe HE is at hand, and he or she is not left to his or her own devices. If one is afraid to be close to HIM, which usually is because they are comfortable with a little darkness, he will not benefit. Faith turns loose of self, letting HIm have the reigns. For otherwise, darkness has too much influence over the reigns in preference to self.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
How easy it is to build a straw man out of someone's argument and then knock it down. This is not at all what I've said. We do not abide in sin, though we do sin. We are not perfect, as you suppose. We are being perfected. There is a difference.

??? Au contrair! The condition of the believer is that he abides in sin, unless he abides not in it. You are wrestling Jacob's match! It is much easier to be broken.

Now, we are not 'being' perfected. Jesus' work is done. When on the Cross HE said, "It is finished," He meant an awful lot by it. And I do not - suppose - anything. Scripture says flat out that the finished work is our perfection. We are therefore in, or we are 'growing', supposedly. But 'growing' is a process of the dog chasing its tail. The whole life can be spent in a process which is not a process. But Jesus calls us to abide in 'the' finished work, and the carnal mind will not figure it out. It will have to break, or chase its tail. Here is chasing our tail: Quote

quote:
The other form of holiness has to do with sanctification, in which we work with the Holy Spirit in an effort to "be holy as [He is] holy."

It isn't in 'working' with the Holy Spirit. It is in 'resting' in the Holy Spirit. It is a question of surrender to the finished work, not trying to 'help' HIM get the job done. It is not in helping HIM accomplish what HE already finished, and what HE, and HE alone could. By 'doing' so, we make ourselves transgressors, rather than 'help' the situation. God calls us to participate in it, but He does not call us to help Him accomplish it.
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Billy
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quote:
I wrote:
Did Lazarus choose to be resurrected?

You responded:
Yes he did, read on….

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44)

How can we then choose to be brought out of spiritual death?

When Yahweh the Father calls respond….The term "faith-rest", and its definition , are understood from the Scriptures in Hebrews 4:1,2 "Let us therefore fear lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them, but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Salvation is a “Promise” but if the individual does not act on what he has heard it will be dead.

Lazarus heard Yahshua call out his name, Lazarus was bound hand and foot, the symbol; of all who are dead in sin, but he choose to obey Yahshua’s words, mixed what Yahshua said with faith he came out of the tomb. ….

But Lazarus could have just laid there and said is HE crazy, I can not get up I’m bound hand and foot. Somebody is going to have to do this for me.

Okay. My question was not, "After Jesus resurrected Lazarus, did he come forth?" My question was, "Did Lazarus choose to be resurrected." The logical answer is, "No." Nothing dead chooses anything. Does a stone choose to be placed where it is? Does a radio choose which channel it picks up? Does a lamp decide whether to be on or off? Jesus had to first impart life into Lazarus' body. It was not the response that saved Lazarus, but Jesus' call which imparted life.

quote:
How can we then choose to be brought out of spiritual death?

When Yahweh the Father calls respond….

And I would argue that our response is of natural effect. Just as Lazarus naturally desired to come out of the grave after having life returned to his bones. We desire God, not because we agree, in our old state, that His call is worth responding to, but rather because He has given us a new heart with new desires. A heart which is prone to respond to His call.

quote:
All who will be saved will be saved the same way by Grace through Faith.

Understanding that Grace is Yahweh’s divine power and ability to do His will imparted to the believer by Yahweh and acting on that fact by faith is all that will save any individual.

Look at the picture of the very first Passover... the only reason the death Angle passed over was because of the Blood... but the Blood had to be applied just as they were told...

they mixed Faith (action) (obedience) with what they had been told.... this is a picture painted with words for all who will see.

And faith is part of the grace that is imparted on the individual. We know this by the fact that, over and over again, the Bible tells us that our hearts are deceitfully wicked and no one seeks after God. God must change our hearts so that we can receive the message. This is a precursor. A supernatural work commonly called regeneration that occurs prior to the response.

quote:
I wrote:
We have not the ability to choose Him apart from His regenerating work.

Your response:
Never try to separate the Sovernity of Yahweh and the responsibility of man…to do so will always bring about false doctrine. If you have Yahweh's Grace, you have the ability and never forget it....

Responsibility of man? By this, do you mean the work of man? We are responsible for a tremendous lot, though we never act upon it. The Old Testament is repleat with this. It is only when God bestows upon us the ability to see out this responsibility that we are even capable of doing so. This is biblical.

quote:
All is to and far the Glory of Yahweh to those that truly believes and understands.
Agreed.

quote:
No individual should ever boast about anything, pride in every form is an abomination before Yahweh for no one, be they King, President, Dictator, Millionaire, Billionaire , Hero of any sort… sports, police, fireman or soldier owe all they are to the Glory of Yahweh. Yahweh humbles who He wills and promotes who he wills, to accomplish His purposes in the earth.
...even in the work of salvation.

quote:
Yahweh is the Gentlest of all Gentlemen; he has never and never will force any to be His child. He lovingly calls...
What verse is that??? Did He not force Jonah? Did He not strike Paul with blindness? Did He not inflict Egypt with plagues? Did He not confront David with his infidelity? For some, God does show them mercy by bringing them to repentance before they have trampled too long on His grace. For others, like me and Paul, we must live with the fact that we were not called until after we had done terrible things, and often while claiming to serve the Lord. I can see, in hindsight, that I could have been seconds away from suffering the same fate as King Saul when God hardened his heart, but God chose to change my heart instead. This is not a monstrous God, but a loving One.

quote:
he tenderly shows His love to all…. Yahweh is not a terrorist that says if you do not do as I say I will kill your children and make you suffer all the days of your life to you change your mind….
This so soon after you use the story of the passover as an analogy. Do you remember why God's Spirit passed over the land of Egypt? Because Pharoah would not release His people, so God decided to kill his children and make him suffer for the rest of the days of his life. Careful how you use God. "He is not a tamed Lion. Though He is good." (C.S. Lewis) That is to say that His nature is to do good, even if that means that He must destroy the wicked in order to accomplish it.

quote:
No, no, a thousand times no He love us even when we are against Him...
God loves His sinless Son, and hates sin. If God loves with a perfect love, He must hate all that is evil. Catch 22: We are evil. He is only able to love us, because of Who stands in our place. Otherwise, His wrath abides upon us. Read the Old Testament. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He does not change just because your Bible changes at one point from Hebrew to Greek. Jesus' blood is what makes us 'loveable', and that is all.

quote:
...and desires all to repent, not just a chosen few.
So, how do you deal with that verse then?

quote:
Don’t let your theology make Yahweh out to be a monster…..
I don't presume to know all there is to know about God, but I accept what the Bible tells me, and I don't call Him a monster for it. If you choose to do so, so be it.

quote:
For Yahweh is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kind, Gentle, Patient, and Faithful...
...and Righteousness, Holiness, Justice, Wrath, Purity, Sovereignty, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Never Changing, Eternal, Jealous, Perfect, Sinless...

Shall we continue? Let us examine the whole counsel of God, not just the parts that make us feel all tingly about Him.

quote:
Yahweh does not desire that any perish but that all come to repentance.
Yet, apart from His heart changing grace, we all choose to perish, and none of us repent. Does that make Him evil? No. We are evil. Why does He choose some? That is not for us to judge. It is only for us to read it FROM HIS WORD and give the hearty "Amen!" We will be enlightened as to His all-superior reasoning when we see Him face to face.

quote:
...if Yahweh peradventure will
give them repentance...

Odd that you would choose to quote that verse.

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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becauseHElives
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Bold are quotes from Billy posted August 28, 2008 06:35 PM

Did Lazarus choose to be resurrected?

Yes he did, read on….

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44)

How can we then choose to be brought out of spiritual death?

When Yahweh the Father calls respond….The term "faith-rest", and its definition , are understood from the Scriptures in Hebrews 4:1,2 "Let us therefore fear lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them, but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Salvation is a “Promise” but if the individual does not act on what he has heard it will be dead.

Lazarus heard Yahshua call out his name, Lazarus was bound hand and foot, the symbol; of all who are dead in sin, but he choose to obey Yahshua’s words, mixed what Yahshua said with faith he came out of the tomb. ….

But Lazarus could have just laid there and said is HE crazy, I can not get up I’m bound hand and foot. Somebody is going to have to do this for me.

All who will be saved will be saved the same way by Grace through Faith.

Understanding that Grace is Yahweh’s divine power and ability to do His will imparted to the believer by Yahweh and acting on that fact by faith is all that will save any individual.

Look at the picture of the very first Passover... the only reason the death Angle passed over was because of the Blood... but the Blood had to be applied just as they were told...

they mixed Faith (action) (obedience) with what they had been told.... this is a picture painted with words for all who will see.

We have not the ability to choose Him apart from His regenerating work.

Never try to separate the Sovernity of Yahweh and the responsibility of man…to do so will always bring about false doctrine. If you have Yahweh's Grace, you have the ability and never forget it....

What is with this desire to assign some kind of credit to man for the work of salvation, as though it were for our glory?

All is to and far the Glory of Yahweh to those that truly believes and understands.

Should we say that we have chosen Him, so that we can boast of ourselves and what a great choice we made?

No individual should ever boast about anything, pride in every form is an abomination before Yahweh for no one, be they King, President, Dictator, Millionaire, Billionaire , Hero of any sort… sports, police, fireman or soldier owe all they are to the Glory of Yahweh. Yahweh humbles who He wills and promotes who he wills, to accomplish His purposes in the earth.

Far be it. God gets all the glory. I know that God practically forced my repentance, and He is still working on providing the growth for the fruits of my mustard seed faith. I am forever grateful for this, because there was nothing in me that was worth saving. Nothing!

Yahweh is the Gentlest of all Gentlemen; he has never and never will force any to be His child. He lovingly calls; he tenderly shows His love to all…. Yahweh is not a terrorist that says if you do not do as I say I will kill your children and make you suffer all the days of your life to you change your mind…. No, no, a thousand times no He love us even when we are against Him and desires all to repent, not just a chosen few. Don’t let your theology make Yahweh out to be a monster…..

For Yahweh is Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kind, Gentle, Patient, and Faithful

Yahweh does not desire that any perish but that all come to repentance.

"And the servant of Yahweh must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if Yahweh peradventure will
give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" 2Tim 2:24-25

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Billy
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So, would you say that you affirm both the doctrine of regeneration (that we are new creatures in Christ) and the doctrine of biblical assurance, in that, if we can give the "Amen" to 1John, we have assurance that He Who began a good work in us will see it through to the end?

Here's my understanding of it:

We are justified by the substitutionary atonement of Christ when we repent of our sins and put faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. In such, His righteousness is credited to our account. This is the first form of holiness addressed in the Bible.

The other form of holiness has to do with sanctification, in which we work with the Holy Spirit in an effort to "be holy as [He is] holy."

Our assurance comes in many ways. We know that He has purified us if we can give the "Amen" to 1John and see that the "fruits of the Spirit" in Galatians 5 are consistently prevalent in our lives. This is how we can know that we are growing to be more like Christ and can know that we are children of God (Galatians 3).

This brings us to our next point. That, if we are indeed children of God, on this earth and before we die, will He allow us to just fall away? According to the writer of Hebrews, He will not;

Hebrews 12:4-11
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, "MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM; 6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES." 7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

Now, some would say, "Oh, that only applies to Jewish people. Afterall, it is addressed to the Hebrews." Really? So is Paul wrong when he states that there is now no longer Jew nor Greek among the children of God, in Galatians 3? Is John wrong when he tells Christian believers that they are children of God over and over again in 1John? We are children of God, so this passage applies to us.

Therefore, let us read it and understand that, as children of God, our Father will not abandone us to sin. He will not let us drift into apostasy. Rather, He will chasten us. He will discipline us to bring us back to repentance. The writer of Hebrews goes on to say that we should find great comfort in the fact that we are being disciplined by the Lord, because we find assurance that we are truly His, in this. This is His mode of instilling holiness in us (verse 10). For the holiness that we receive at salvation is applied to us, whereas the holiness that we attain through sanctification is brought forth through us, by Him that disciplines us (as a needle is brought through the fabric).

Now, there are many more means of assurance to be found, in the scripture. Sadly, these verses can be used as well to point out that someone is not in the fold. However, there should be no problem with pointing these things out, as they lead the wolves to examine whether they are truly sheep, or merely in sheeps' clothing. I know that this is true, because this is how I was transformed three years ago.

When I was eleven years old, I walked an isle and prayed a prayer. I was not saved, however. I then went on to lead a life of debauchery. I revelled in my sin, much like the prodigal son revelled in the pig sty. When this mirror was put up in my face, and I saw that I was not a true Christian, I cried out to God and He saved me. How do I know that I was saved? I not only repented on that day, but am continuing to repent, today. I not only put my trust in Jesus Christ on that day, but still live in that trust, today. I can look back on my walk and see definite areas where God has reshaped me and worked through me (often through other people) to exact holiness in my life.

Am I still a babe, in the faith? Of course I am. The Lord still has many areas of my life that He would wish to grow me, I'm sure. Does this mean that I'm not saved? Hardly. I am assured. I am assured not by my works, but by my love for Christ, and my hatred of sin. I am assured by all the works that Christ has done through me to change me. I am assured by the Bible, for everytime I read it, I see God working to purify me, and I see how He has already worked to purify me, yesterday, a week ago, a month ago, a year ago, etc. I am different. I love God, and not just a god of my own making, but the God that continues to reveal more and more of Himself everyday, in the scriptures. This is how I know that I was saved at one point, and will always be saved.

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Carol Swenson
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Good evening Billy

John Wesley is actually new to me. But as I did this research I found that I liked what I was learning. Here's an example:

Does this mean that an entirely sanctified person cannot sin?

Answer: No, being entirely sanctified doesn't mean that a person will not sin again. Entire sanctification is not a Wesleyan form of eternal security, teaching that, once we're in, we're in for good.

The point of entire sanctification is to restore people to the kind of holiness that Adam and Eve enjoyed before the Fall. They had a perfect relationship with God. Yet, inexplicably, they chose to sin.

Entire sanctification means that a person's tendency -- some call it "bent" -- is toward righteousness rather than toward sinning. The goal and the reasonable expectation of the entirely sanctified life is to not sin, as 1 John 2:1 makes clear: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin." The expectation was that the believers would live as Christ lived and do His will. Sanctified people not only do the will of God but also want to do the will of God.

You can read more of it here:

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/entire.htm

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Billy
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Did he quantify this by saying that we never sin, following our conversion? Or did he read on in 1John and discover that we (the converted) do still sin (though it will not be prevalent in our lives) and need to continue in daily repentance and confession of said sin? Far be it for me to argue with a preacher of such great stature as John Wesley. Of course, far be it for him to argue with the apostle John, as well. Agree?

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Carol Swenson
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John Wesley believed that Christ's death on the cross made it possible not only for sinners to be saved by grace, but, indeed, for them to be saved to the uttermost. Entire sanctification was restoration to the image of God, being made perfect in love toward God and neighbor.

John Wesley himself said that the only reason he used the word "perfect" is because the Bible spoke of perfection. Wesley, however, did insist that the words perfect and perfection never be used by themselves to describe the experience. He urged his followers to always say Christian perfection rather than simply perfection, and perfected in love rather than just perfected.

The original biblical words for perfect and perfection do not mean absolute perfection with no possibility for more improvement. The Hebrew and Greek words mean that a person or thing is as complete as it was designed or expected to be at that moment. (What a child might do perfectly for his age is much less than what he will be able to do as an adult.)

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Carol Swenson
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1 John 2:1 - 11 (NLT)

1 My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. 3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

7 Dear friends, I am not writing a new commandment for you; rather it is an old one you have had from the very beginning. This old commandment—to love one another—is the same message you heard before. 8 Yet it is also new. Jesus lived the truth of this commandment, and you also are living it. For the darkness is disappearing, and the true light is already shining.

9 If anyone claims, “I am living in the light,” but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is still living in darkness. 10 Anyone who loves another brother or sister is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble. 11 But anyone who hates another brother or sister is still living and walking in darkness. Such a person does not know the way to go, having been blinded by the darkness.

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Billy
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quote:
I will add this disclaimer. I have some pretty humiliating defeats when it comes to my faith, but it is not the norm. It is the exception. And it is not, I will remind everybody, that "I" am able. It simply is the provision of God which we walk in by 'faith' if we trust and believe. I deserve no credit as though I can 'rise above'. I simply, "Believe God, and it works in me [is accounted to me for] righteousness. You do not have to sin in thought or deed.
This is precisely what I have been saying, except that, when you say, "I have some pretty humiliating defeats when it comes to my faith," I would simply be more honest and say, "I have sinned!" James makes it quite clear what happens when you sin, and it is more of a willing surrender than a 'humiliating defeat';

James 1:13-18
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

With this definition of sin we see that John says that we (Christians) all do this, and includes himself in the mix when he uses the pronoun we. He says that, if we say that we do not do this, we are liars and the truth is ot in us. Now, you admit that you do this, but that it is not prevalent. This is a sign of a true believer. As I said above, we are not perfect, but are being perfected as a supernatural work of God, and not of ourselves. I don't claim to be perfect, but nor do I say that we can live in a state of continuous sin. Neither of these views are scriptural.

We are commanded to "be holy as [He is] holy." This is our commandment to follow. Are you suggesting that you have met this standard, and continue to meet it daily. I would say that, based on your above statement and the testimony of scripture, you don't because no one does. This is what we strive for, and what we pray for, and what we rely on God to accomplish in our lives. But we do fall. We do allow ourselves to be carried away, but as you aptly say, this is the exception and not the rule, and as we grow in Christ, this should happen less and less. This is the picture of our walk in Christ.

However, to say that we need not confess our sins and ask for forgiveness is like saying, "Well my wife knows that I love her and that I mean well. Why should I have to tell her?" The Christian walk is a relational one. When we sin, we do not separate ourselves from the salvation that has been bestowed upon us, but we do separate ourselves from the riches of the divine communion. We should never feel comfortable approaching God when we have unconfessed sin in our lives. We should never expect Him to hear our prayers. When we approach God, we are on holy ground. How can we have trampled His Holy Spirit by sinning and then expect to commune with Him in prayer without confessing our sin and asking forgiveness? This John addresses in his first epistle.

He presents a problem: If we say that we do not have sin, we lie and the truth is not in us. We are sinners that wish to commune with a Holy God. Then he presents a solution: If we confess our sin, He is faithful to forgive us. So, as we grow in holiness, we will sin. However, we continue to grow, because He exacts that growth in us. Thus we must continue our communion with Him if we wish to continue to grow (growth, without which we have no assurance of salvation). However, He is holy and cannot commune with sinners. Thus, we must confess our sins as often as we commit sin. When we do this, He forgives us and our communion with Him continues.

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Billy
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quote:
Michael wrote:
Your position is that one 'abides' in sin. That is the 'condition' of the believer.

How easy it is to build a straw man out of someone's argument and then knock it down. This is not at all what I've said. We do not abide in sin, though we do sin. We are not perfect, as you suppose. We are being perfected. There is a difference.

If we live a life of continuous sin, we are surely not of Christ. This cannot be denied. John makes this clear. However, to say that we do not fall from time to time and sin, is unbiblical. I'd like to hear how you interpret the verse that I've given you. Do you believe it to be false? Do you believe that the Bible contradicts itself?

Just so that you know that I want my questions answered, I will repeat them...

Do you believe John's words to be false?

Do you believe that John is contradicting Jesus, when he writes these words under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

If not, you must reconcile his words with those of Jesus. You must ask yourself, what is he saying? How is this true in light of the words of Jesus? We do not merely dismiss one verse in light of another, unless we believe that one verse is less important than another. Is this what you believe? Do you believe that John's words are any less inspired by the Holy Spirit than the words that the gospel writers attribute to Jesus? If so, I would say that you have a low view of scripture. And yes, you are unwilling, in the hardness of your heart to accept rebuke, even when it comes straight from scripture. I will pray for you.

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Michael Harrison
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Billy, you really are very tiring. If the scriptures do not convince you, how will I even start?

quote:
John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Would you continue to deceive yourself by claiming that you have no sin in your life? I am not here to tell you how you've sinned. However, I know that you do sin, daily, because the Bible says it!!! JOHN SAYS IT!!! Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

And again...


Your position is that one 'abides' in sin. That is the 'condition' of the believer. Don't tell it to me. Tell that to Jesus! [thumbsup2]

  • 1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our 'fellowship' is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.



  • 1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.



  • 1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.


Ok! Now 1Jn 1:6

  • 1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


Sin is darkness. So John is saying that if you walk in darkness [sin] then you do not have fellowship with Him. It is not that you have not known Him (or HE you), but you do 'not' have fellowship. HE emphasizes this with, "And do not the truth." He says flat out, that you lie to your self! ! !

Then He tells us the good news. But first let's consider this as though this was the order of the verses in which he laid it down.

  • 1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Did you, or anyone miss that? Let me paraphrase: If we say that we have no sin separating us from God, we lie to ourselves. But if we confess, HE will cleans us from 'all' unrighteousness. 'All' says it quite well. He wasn't piddling with words. If HE does not 'cleanse' us from 'all' unrighteousness, we cannot 'have' fellowship with Him. We can look forward to a day, when after we die we may be able to, but not now. So, back to verse six, If we say that we have 'fellowship' with Him, but we are in sin, we lie, horribly, and - do - not the truth. To which we can see that he says,

  • 1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
  • we have fellowship one with another,
  • and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
  • cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, [past tense] we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now, I have the entire New Testament to reinforce this! What do you have? For even the next verse, in the same epistle, says that:

  • 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.


Does anyone think that he didn't really mean this? But there is this provision:

  • And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


So, John is speaking in this epistle from a position of being above sin, rather than from a position of abiding in sin. Shall we go to Romans, or Hebrews?

Here is something to think about:

  • 1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
    1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

That means pass the time of your sojourning here not taking 'sin' for granted! Now:

  • 1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; [and cause you to sin]

    [LIST] Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


If lust when it has conceived, bringeth forth sin, what of someone if they 'abide' in lusts? They are helplessly sinful, and perpetually so. Then must needs they to distort the doctrine so that they may by some other means be justified! This is how doctrine gets messed up. And it is messed up out there brother! It is.


I have often posted the works of Charles Trumbull here. There is "The Life That Wins," and "Perils of the Victorious Life," which I recommend to any and all who have contempt for my explaination. And he says it thankfully, very well. But we can go into any other epistle and see that what God means when He calls us to repent, is to repent all the way. To repent means to turn from sin, to Him. To repent, boiled down to its sweetest sugar means to 'turn from unbelief', for HE is delivering you from the necessity to sin if you believe as you should.

And let me say again what I have said recently, one cannot 'walk in the Spirit' that they not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and walk in the lusts of the flesh [sin] at the same time. Either they are walking in the lusts of the flesh, or they are in the Spirit, wherein, there is therefore no condemnation!

I will add this disclaimer. I have some pretty humiliating defeats when it comes to my faith, but it is not the norm. It is the exception. And it is not, I will remind everybody, that "I" am able. It simply is the provision of God which we walk in by 'faith' if we trust and believe. I deserve no credit as though I can 'rise above'. I simply, "Believe God, and it works in me [is accounted to me for] righteousness. You do not have to sin in thought or deed.

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kjw47
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Hi Friends, At Acts 3:19 It says repent and turn around ( stop doing the sin, not just asking forgivness and doing this pattern over and over. ) to get our sins blotted out. Jesus sacrafice is for repented sin.
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Carol Swenson
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yahsway good post [thumbsup2]


Purpose of 1 John

To reassure Christians in their faith and to counter false teachings.

If it is true that John wrote these letters to certain local churches in Asia—especially to those around Ephesus—one of the reasons that prompted his first epistle was that a heretical faction had developed within the church, a faction that promoted heretical teachings concerning the person of Christ. Scholars have identified this heresy as Docetism generally and pointed specifically to Cerinthus as the perpetrator of the specific brand of Docetism.

The Docetists denied that Jesus had actually become flesh and blood; they denied that God had come in a human body (see 4:1-3). According to Irenaeus, Cerinthus “represented Jesus as having not been born of a virgin, but as being the son of Joseph and Mary according to the ordinary course of human generation, while he nevertheless was more righteous, prudent, and wise than other men. Moreover, after his baptism, Christ descended upon him in the form of a dove from the Supreme Ruler, and that then he proclaimed the unknown Father, and performed miracles. But at last Christ departed from Jesus, and that then Jesus suffered and rose again, while Christ remained impassable, inasmuch as he was a spiritual being”. John refuted the Cerinthian heresy in 5:5-8.

The heretical faction within the church (or churches) that John was addressing eventually left the fellowship. In so doing, they exposed the reality that they did not genuinely belong to God’s family (2:18-19). But their false teachings still lingered in the minds of the faithful. So John wrote to clear the air of all the falsehoods and bring the believers back to the pure beginning of the gospel and to the basics of the Christian life. John urged his readers:

* to have fellowship with God in the light

* to confess their sins

* to love God

* to love their fellow Christians

* to abide in Christ

* to purify themselves from worldly lusts

* to know God personally and experientially

* to appreciate the gift of eternal life

* to follow the Spirit of truth (and the anointing) in discerning false teachings

* to esteem Jesus Christ as the true God

Above all these items, John stressed how necessary it was for the early believers to maintain a proper relationship with those who had been with Jesus. In the prologue (1:1-4) to 1 John, he invites all the believers to participate in the one apostolic fellowship. Fellowship is a two-way, simultaneous experience: both with fellow believers and with God. This is to safeguard against pseudospirituality and extreme individualism. Throughout this first letter, John seems to have been addressing his comments to those who were claiming to have a relationship with God, yet had left the fellowship of believers and did not love the brothers and sisters in Christ.

Concerning Sin (1:5-10; 2:1-2, 12-17; 3:4-9; 5:16-21).

Even Christians sin. Sin requires God’s forgiveness, and Christ’s death provides it. Determining to live according to God’s standards in the Bible shows that believers’ lives are being transformed.

Throughout this epistle, John calls into question all professed spirituality. These are presented in a series of statements (usually phrased “if we say”) that probably mimic what various Gnostic believers were claiming about their spiritual experiences (for example, see 1:6, 8; 2:4, 6, 9). Talk is cheap; reality must be tested by one’s relationship with the members of the church community. John urged the believers to know the truth and to live in it.

We cannot deny our sin nature, maintain that we are above sinning, or minimize the consequences of sin in our relationship with God.

We must resist the attraction of sin, yet we must confess when we do sin.

Be honest with yourself and with God. Admit your sin to him and live in the freedom of his forgiveness.


(Life Application Bible Commentary: 1, 2, & 3 John)

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Billy
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We can agree that John was writing to address the issue of the heresy of the Gnostics, though we don't know if it was even referred to as gnosticism, back then, but was certainly the birthings of what would become gnosticism. However, the group that he was addressing were believers, and he was writing to give them an accurate depiction of the Christian life, so that they may have assurance, if indeed they were saved. It is for this reason that we can look at 1John in order to determine whether or not we are in fact saved. He leaves no room for second guessing. If you deviate from what he is revealing through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then you have cause to inquire of the King as to whether or not you are truly saved. Regardless of whom he is addressing, the statement rings true...

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."

And, as I pointed out before, the we in this statement leaves zero doubt as to whom he is addressing. He is referring to not only believers, but all believers, including himself. So are we to conclude that there are two types of Christianity? That there is the heresy that the sinner John is teaching, here, and there is the real truth that is taught by the perfect, sinless Michael (as well as the gnostics)? Quite the opposite. If God chose John as an apostle and as the one to whom He would give His Revelation, I am apt to side with him, not Michael. Michael states that true belief leads to sinless perfection. John says that those who make this claim of themselves do not have the truth in them. Who are you going to believe?

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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yahsway
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Actually, John was speaking to the Gnostics who believed they had no sin.

John states that he wrote to give assurance of eternal life to those "who believe in the name of the Son of God" (5:13)

The uncertaintainty of his readers about their spiritual status was caused by an unsettling conflict with the teachers of a false doctrine.

John refers to the teachings as deceitful (2:26, 3:7) and to the teachers as "false prophets" (4:1) liars (2:22) and antichrists (2:18, 22, 4:3)

They had once been within the church, but had withdrawn(2:19) and had "gone out into the world" (4:1) to propogate their dangerous heresy.

The heresy was a forerunner of 2nd century Gnosticism, which taught that matter is essentially evil and spirit is essentially good.

This dualistic viewpoint caused the false teachers to deny the Incarnation of Christ and, hence the Ressurrection.

The true God, they taught, could never indwell a material body of flesh and blood. Therefore, the human body that Jesus suppposedly possessed was not real, but merely apparent.

John wrote vigorously against this error (2:ss, 23 4:3)

They also taught that since the evil human body was merely an envelope for the spirit within, and since nothing the body could do could affect the inner spirit, ethical distinctions ceased to be relevant. Hence,THEY HAD NO SIN.

John answered this error with indignation (2:4, 6 15-17 3:3 7,9.10 5:18)

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Billy
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quote:
And yew sed

quote:
You have repeatedly posited that I read the Bible to get what I want out of it.
You and eden! I do not mean for you to take this personal. It is 'you' plural, meaning eveyone does this up until the point that they discover something really neat, which is beyond one's self. It just goes to show that the old nature will take everything personal. But pardon me if I inadvertently made it sound direct and personal. I speak in general. But even to speak in general is to sound 'critical' as though making a personal attack. Yet listen to Paul! Take it personal and see if it is not the same. Read it as if he is saying it directly to yu.
I think you misunderstood my original request regarding this. I don't care if you judge me (which is what you are in fact doing). What I want is for you to provide evidence for your case. Read the original request...

quote:
I wrote:
Now Michael,
You have repeatedly posited that I read the Bible to get what I want out of it. You have plenty of opportunity to make your case. Quote me and quote the scripture that I'm interpreting. Then show me where my interpretation is flawed. I do this for you. If it is indeed flawed, the Lord will show me the error of my ways, and I will repent. It is not my intention to create for myself a false idol. I truly desire to seek out the God of the Bible, in all His glorious truth.

I challenge you to show me where I have added my own opinion to the scripture that I have quoted for you. I challenge you to show me exactly where my interpretation of scripture is flawed. I have already done this for you on many occasions. I have gotten very specific with you. However, you see yourself as above reproach. You would rather turn and level accusations against me that you can provide no proof for. Are you here to cause divisions? Are you here to teach and not learn? Are you here to be condescending and never humble? If so, let me know now, that I may brush my feet off and be done with you.

quote:
In truth, we 'have no sin' if we are walking in the light.
So, are you saying that John was a liar when he said...

1John 1 -
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Your theological theory does not stand up in light of scripture. In the same breath, John says that we walk in the light and that we 'have' sin. Indeed, we have sin in our lives, but we are not to continuously walk 'in' it. In other words, when one looks at your life, does he see that sin is more consistent than obedience? Oh how I wish that I could talk to you alone, Michael. Is it because we are on a public board that you will not listen to rebuke? Is it pride that keeps you from hearing the correction of scripture?

quote:
The correct model for this is, do not daily confess your sin: Rather, do not sin so that you have nothing to confess. What am I saying? You mean that I mean to say that one can go through a day without sinning? NOT, if you don't believe it. And just because one accuses you of sin doesn't make it true, though one should consider with humility what is said.
This is self righteousness. Plain and simple. How can Christ live in you if you refuse to humble yourself? Or did you not read the entire passage:

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Would you continue to deceive yourself by claiming that you have no sin in your life? I am not here to tell you how you've sinned. However, I know that you do sin, daily, because the Bible says it!!! JOHN SAYS IT!!! Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

And again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

And again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Is John a liar or are you? This epistle was written to Christians, and John includes HIMSELF in this verse, when he uses the all inclusive pronoun we. Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Though you will not listen to me, I beg you. Listen to scripture. Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Why am I doing this? Because John says so clearly that he writes these things so that you might know that you are saved. If you disagree with John on these points, at any point, you have reason to be concerned. Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, so if John says that the truth is not in you, in fact he is saying that Jesus is not in you.

Michael,
I plead with you, examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. Do it today! Search the scriptures. Read 1John. Let it cut you. Read Galatians 5. Let it cut you. Let God break you. Let Him show you your true state. Read it again...

John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Billy
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quote:
Michael wrote:
What, dear billy, or anyone else, is the evidence that one is dead? It is inactivity! Yet it is easier to see evidence that someone is alive. That would be anything that is not Christ. It would be actions, and reactions which are not Jesus.

We have to understand if we are truly seeking, that when the scripture talks about one's being dead, that it doesn't mean that there is no threat of any manifestation, which shows resurrection of that dead person, who is who we were without Christ. Dead, according to what is described in the verses is by faith, just like 'life' is by faith. Therefore, dead is not reality when faith unto life is not perfect. In otherwords, you are in denial if you claim you are dead, and two minutes ago you were cursing someone. You are in denial if you 'claim' you are dead because 'scripture says so', yet when asked to carry cookies out to the clan, you first went through them and took out the biggest for yourself.

We have a dead man who as a monkey on the back, is only dead by faith, as that faith is operational. He is not dead, unable to respond, and done with, that is the end of it - until we leave this earth! It is why Paul had to "stay dead daily." (1Cor15:31) In the mean time he is more like in suspended animation, as long as we have faith unto righteousness. That is the kind of dead that we are. We are dead to self, only as we are 'alive to God', and we come out of suspended animation whenever we do not trust.

1) A name is a proper noun. As such we usually capitalize the first letter. I'll assume this was a typo.

2) It sounds like you base your theology more on personal experiences than on the Bible. Sure, if you can find a Bible verse that seems to help make a case for it, you'll use it.

3) I'm going to need specific verses used IN CONTEXT

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Carol Swenson
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Billy said
quote:
They are imposters who would best serve themselves to hit their knees and ask the Lord to please do a sovereign work in their hearts that they may come to repentance and faith in Him. That's what I see in that passage.

[thumbsup2]


Matthew 22:1-14


Jesus Christ, Kingdom of God —Jesus’ coming represented God’s invitation to Israel to attend the banquet honoring Messiah. They refused to participate. To refuse to honor God’s Son is to reject the Father. God in grace invites all people to His kingdom. Compare Lk 14:16-24. We must attend His feast on His terms, not ours.

Election, Free Will —The Jews had the first opportunity to be part of God’s kingdom. Having rejected Jesus, they will discover that the believing Gentiles, whom they considered to be last, will join the Jewish faithful remnant as members of God’s elect. The inheritance of God is given not as earthly inheritances are, by priority of birth and seniority, but by God’s good pleasure. People have freedom to reject God’s invitation through indifference, wrong priorities, and hostility. God’s invitation continues to go out without preconditions as to membership in social classes or achievement of ethical standards. Election depends on God’s grace to all people , not on accident of birth or human works. Acceptance of God’s invitation must be in accord with His standard of repentance. Without meeting this standard, one faces expulsion and judgment. In free exercise of will humans respond to God’s call to join the elect. Proper response in faith and repentance means a person is among the elect.

The Church, God’s Kingdom —The kingdom of heaven includes those whom others reject. Entrance into God’s kingdom depends on His goodness, not on social rank or good deeds. The kingdom’s membership is limited. Just being part of the human race or having a vague belief in some kind of God does not qualify you for membership. You must accept God’s invitation on His conditions of repentance and faith.

(Disciple’s Study Bible)

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Billy said:
quote:
Say what?!? Either the old man is dead or he's not. Either you believe the Bible or you don't. Which is it?


What, dear billy, or anyone else, is the evidence that one is dead? It is inactivity! Yet it is easier to see evidence that someone is alive. That would be anything that is not Christ. It would be actions, and reactions which are not Jesus.

We have to understand if we are truly seeking, that when the scripture talks about one's being dead, that it doesn't mean that there is no threat of any manifestation, which shows resurrection of that dead person, who is who we were without Christ. Dead, according to what is described in the verses is by faith, just like 'life' is by faith. Therefore, dead is not reality when faith unto life is not perfect. In otherwords, you are in denial if you claim you are dead, and two minutes ago you were cursing someone. You are in denial if you 'claim' you are dead because 'scripture says so', yet when asked to carry cookies out to the clan, you first went through them and took out the biggest for yourself.

We have a dead man who as a monkey on the back, is only dead by faith, as that faith is operational. He is not dead, unable to respond, and done with, that is the end of it - until we leave this earth! It is why Paul had to "stay dead daily." (1Cor15:31) In the mean time he is more like in suspended animation, as long as we have faith unto righteousness. That is the kind of dead that we are. We are dead to self, only as we are 'alive to God', and we come out of suspended animation whenever we do not trust.

quote:
And yew sed
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You have repeatedly posited that I read the Bible to get what I want out of it.

You and eden! I do not mean for you to take this personal. It is 'you' plural, meaning eveyone does this up until the point that they discover something really neat, which is beyond one's self. It just goes to show that the old nature will take everything personal. But pardon me if I inadvertently made it sound direct and personal. I speak in general. But even to speak in general is to sound 'critical' as though making a personal attack. Yet listen to Paul! Take it personal and see if it is not the same. Read it as if he is saying it directly to yu.

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And more
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Does this say that we have no sin, if we are in Christ? No. It says that we will not walk in it.

It is hard to reconcile 'having' sin, with not walking in it. In truth, we 'have no sin' if we are walking in the light. Again, it is a faith thing, whether one recognizes and conceeds to this or not. It cannot be possible to have sin, and not walk in it. There is all the scripture necessary, if as I have stated before, one reads it the way it is written. This is fact, even if it is not understood, and the Spirit bears witness that it is so.

The correct model for this is, do not daily confess your sin: Rather, do not sin so that you have nothing to confess. What am I saying? You mean that I mean to say that one can go through a day without sinning? NOT, if you don't believe it. And just because one accuses you of sin doesn't make it true, though one should consider with humility what is said.

Moreover, the passage doesn't state "daily." It says to confess your sins. That means to acknowledge a condition, or state of being and turn from it. It further means to confess your sin 'if' having turned, you again commit 'a' sin.

quote:
Pretty simple. True converts will, out of a newness of heart, strive to be just like Jesus. If this is not the case, you have cause for concern. Period.

And overcoming sin is not a matter of striving to. It is resting in His deliverance. You will not overcome a single sin by striving. No amount of effort, no amount of willingness will overcome a single solitary sin. Jesus is the overcomer. We must take HIS life.

So, let's go back to the top. It is the 'old man' who is a man of sin. If he is dead, there is not sin. He is dead, if he is dead, by faith, and the fruit (or evidence that he is dead) is that sin has a hard time taking place.

Watchman Nee described this as 'floating'. He said that when you know the truth properly, as you should, you tend to float, rather than sink. The truth, if properly understood, is like air in the flotation device. Otherwise it is not very effective. These are his words, my paraphrase.

Paul was describing a reality we are to come to in Christ. But people only hear what we are supposed to 'do' to accomplish 'whatever'. But Paul is describing a reality, which is in effect when we believe unto life. His life!

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Billy
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quote:
Good evening Billy,
Yes I agree, the Lord surely deserves our praise and worship. He was never under any obligation to share His existence with us. But here we are as evidence of His love. Not only that, to a sinful, ungrateful, and rebellious world God still decided to sacrifice His Son so that we may be able spend eternity with Him in His Holy presence. I wish everyone believed that God deserves all of our praise and worship ......but no, many would rather say "How could a loving God make a place like Hell?" May God help us reach them.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Amen, brother!

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Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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Billy
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Let's explore John's first epistle to the church, shall we? First, what is the purpose for which John wrote his epistle?

quote:
1John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

It's important to note that the original letters were not broken up by chapters and verses, but they were written in a continuous format. Thus, when John writes this, in 1John 5, he is talking about the whole counsel with which he addresses the church, in this epistle. Therefore, this is the context with which we are to read 1John 1.

So, if he was writing to Christians with the expressed intent of revealing the means by which we can know that we are saved, what shall we say are these means that he is revealing?

quote:
1John 1 -
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Does this say that we have no sin, if we are in Christ? No. It says that we will not walk in it. The evidence that we have been saved is not in some prayer or being dunked in a bath, but in that we do not continually walk in sin. As the children of God, He does not let our transgressions go unchecked. He holds us to account, even on this earth. If you cannot say that, John (and James too) is saying that you are not a Christian. For God disciplines His children. He will not let them continue to stray, because He is the good Shepherd.

quote:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
We cannot simply be content to claim that Jesus' blood has covered our sins. Rather, if we are truly new creature, in Jesus Christ, we will no longer desire sin as we once did, but will continually war against it in an effort to daily glorify Him. Will we fail? Of course we will, but if we continue to war against it, we can be assured that He has indeed given us a new heart that longs to do His will. In as much, we know that we have been saved from the eternal consequence of sin. This is where I fall in line with the OSAS crowd. Not that we can sin as we please, because of grace. Rather, it will no longer please us to sin, because we are new creatures.

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9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
This needs no explanation. Daily confess your sins.

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10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
Daily confession of sin is not only beneficial, but also an evidence of your Christian walk. If you do not confess your sin, His word is not in you.

quote:
1John 2 -
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

The sin he is talking about here is that of a continuous walk in sin. Notice how he stops to share the gospel with those who he says are living in this sin. He doesn't assume they are saved, but rather launches right into the gospel message so that they might come to repent and trust in the Savior.

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3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Pretty simple. True converts will, out of a newness of heart, strive to be just like Jesus. If this is not the case, you have cause for concern. Period.

quote:
7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8 On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining.
The old commandment is the law of Moses, which Paul said only leads to death, because none of us can keep it. It is this law that condemns the entire world. The new commandment is the that we live according to the Spirit which is in us if in fact we are in Christ (Galatians 5:16). This commandment, when fulfilled in our lives, is evidence that we are a new creature in Christ.

There is nothing in here about the concept of a Christian living a continuously carnal and unrepentant life. This doctrine is contrary to the words of John. Something to think about.

Now Michael,
You have repeatedly posited that I read the Bible to get what I want out of it. You have plenty of opportunity to make your case. Quote me and quote the scripture that I'm interpreting. Then show me where my interpretation is flawed. I do this for you. If it is indeed flawed, the Lord will show me the error of my ways, and I will repent. It is not my intention to create for myself a false idol. I truly desire to seek out the God of the Bible, in all His glorious truth.

In Christ,
Billy.

--------------------
Test yourselves to be sure that you are in the faith.

- The Apostle Paul

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