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Topic: Once Saved Always Saved ?

Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi Zeena.
You say re...I know I had a hard time believing this, having been taught "heaven or hell" by various church denominations over my lifetime.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You JUST declared it a work in saying you 'had a hard time beleiving this'.

I don't know how this could be "works" in your understanding. When saying ...'I had a hard time believing this', like you, I had no knowledge of this until it was revealed to me by God throuhg His holy spirit. I had no part in my understanding of this. "All is of God" (1Cor.8:5-7, 1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36)

Blessings, Jerry.

Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Luke 21:34
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:
zeena
quote:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They who? people use this to lable those whom they believe were not believers. It is true, but in that way. It was referring to those who not only were not believers, but who were antichrists. So to apply that to someone who is supposed to have 'believed', but supposedly quit believing, would be errant. This passage does not eliminate that group of people.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi all.
Our salvation is not out of ourselves. We do not possess it because we have done this or that in order to acquire it. Consequently, boasting is debarred (Rom.3:27). This is because we are God’s achievement. “For His achievement are we” (Eph.2: 10a). We are saved because we are God’s achievement. It is just that simple and this is fully the truth.
The word “achievement,” is poiˆma (DO-effect). We are the product of God’s doings. It is only unbelief that will seek to modify this or to explain it away. This unbelief is due to the deceptive influences of the worldly philosophy known as free will. We do not care for the fact that we ourselves, who effect much evil and some good, are the product of God’s own doings.
God, however, is able to operate in us, to will and to work for the sake of His delight (Phil.2:13), so that we think of these matters continually, and in a profitable and uplifting way. As those who are God’s achievement, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, ones which God Himself prepared beforehand, there is no possibility but that we should be walking in them. Indeed, since the subjunctive, “should,” in this case, points us only to God, the good works to which it refers are just as certain to be accomplished as would be the case had the indicative “shall” been used instead.
May God grant us a foretaste of the superabundant and transcendent good works of the future in a measure of good works even now, even if the best of these should be totally eclipsed when compared to our labors to come, during the oncoming eons, when we are conformed to the image of God’s Son and seated together among the celestials (Rom.8:29; Eph.2:6).
“Lest anyone should be boasting”—lest we ourselves should artfully contrive some way to look to and lean upon the flesh—we would glory only in God and in His Christ. We are saved in grace through faith, faith being an assumption, based upon God’s own word, concerning what is already true prior to and apart from our conviction in it. “For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them” (Eph.2:10).

Blessings, Jerry.

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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Hi Betty Louise [wave3]

What do you think of Lee Strobel?

Lee Strobel The Case For The Real Jesus

http://www.leestrobel.com/videoserver/video.php?clip=strobel_RJ

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

Carol,

I agree with you. We need to prepare our children so when they go out in the world to college or to the work place they are not influenced by Preachers and Churches preaching a false Gospel.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

The literal translation of “antichrist” can be rendered either “against” Christ or “instead of” Christ. “Anti” conveys opposition. And this hostile antichrist spirit not only permeates this age but actually increases as Christ’s return draws closer. While the idea of a person supremely hostile to Christ might tend to be unnerving, the warning is helpful. There really is no middle ground when it comes to allegiance to Christ and his truth. Neutrality is a myth. Riding the fence is impossible. In the words of the Savior, “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters” (Luke 11:23 NIV). Leaders in your church should help identify the cults and their teachings that influence people in your church and community. Explanations of their methods and principles should be challenged and countered by solid Christian doctrine.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

posted

quote:
zeena
quote:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

They who? people use this to lable those whom they believe were not believers. It is true, but in that way. It was referring to those who not only were not believers, but who were antichrists. So to apply that to someone who is supposed to have 'believed', but supposedly quit believing, would be errant. This passage does not eliminate that group of people.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

1 Corinthians 1:24 (NLT)

But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Betty Louise [thumbsup2]

Jerry

quote:
It is of little use to quote scripture that was given to Israel. Jesus' teaching was to them, and them only.

John 10:14 - 16 (NLT)
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

The “fold” is Judaism (John 10:1), but there is another fold—the Gentiles who are outside the covenants of Israel (Eph. 2:11ff). In our Lord’s early ministry, He concentrated on the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:5-6; 15:24-27). The people converted at Pentecost were Jews and Jewish proselytes (Acts 2:5, 14), but the church was not to remain a “Jewish flock.” Peter took the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 10-11), and Paul carried the message to the Gentiles in the far reaches of the Roman Empire (Acts 13:1ff).

The phrase “one fold” should read “one flock.” There is but one flock, the people of God who belong to the Good Shepherd. God has His people all over this world (see Acts 18:1-11), and He will call them and gather them together.

The missionary message of the Gospel of John is obvious: “For God so loved the world” (John 3:16). Jesus Himself defied custom and witnessed to a Samaritan woman. He refused to defend the exclusivist approach of the Jewish religious leaders. He died for a lost world, and His desire is that His people reach a lost world with the message of eternal life.

Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007 | IP: Logged |

chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi Betty.
It is of little use to quote scripture that was given to Israel. Jesus' teaching was to them, and them only. They were under the 'old covevenant' and the 'law'. see the book of Leviticus for a complete list of the "Law". In that era, we were 'without God', see Eph2:12. Israels entrance to the Kingdom was determined that they obey the 'Law' and keep their covenant with God. (the "Old Covenant) They could not do it, and also rejected their promised "Messiah". Therefore God rejected them and turned to the Gentiles.(Acts13:46)
In Pauls epistles to Timothy, he states that we must "Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth." This means we are to respect to whom these words were spoken to.
Please remember, "All scripture is FOR us, but not all scripture is ABOUT us."
It will be a great benefit to heed these scriptures:

Matt.15:24...Now He (Jesus), answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Ro.15:8...For I am saying that Christ has become the Servant of the Circumcision, for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises.
9 Yet the nations are to glorify God for His mercy...

Ro.15:16...16 for me (Paul) to be the minister of Christ Jesus for the nations, acting as a priest of the evangel of God, that the approach present of the nations may be becoming well received, having been hallowed by holy spirit.

Thanks for your input, I enjoy conversing with you.

God Bless, Jerry.

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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

The Parable of the Wedding Feast
(Luke 14:15-24)
22And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.
11 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, [fn1] take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [fn2] as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Jesus makes it clear that not all the sheep are His. Those who have rejected salvation are not God's sheep and will have no place in Heaven

Instead of teaching a false salvation, pray for the lost.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi Zeena.
You say re...I know I had a hard time believing this, having been taught "heaven or hell" by various church denominations over my lifetime.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You JUST declared it a work in saying you 'had a hard time beleiving this'.

I don't know how this could be "works" in your understanding. When saying ...'I had a hard time believing this', like you, I had no knowledge of this until it was revealed to me by God throuhg His holy spirit. I had no part in my understanding of this. "All is of God" (1Cor.8:5-7, 1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36)

Blessings, Jerry.

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chosenone
unregistered

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Jerry,

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This was written during the age of grace. Sadly millions will spend eternity in hell.
I urge you to study your Bible more.
betty

Hi Betty.
The 'lake of fire' is a figurative term, which is the "second death" (Rev.20:14). Death is death, many like yourself put some mistaken assumption that it is a 'literal lake full of scorching fire'. Read what it says in scripture, it is the "SECOND DEATH". Is the second death any different than the first death? No, those ressurrected from the 'first death', will be punished by the 'second' death, simple as that!
Also, the book of 'Revelation', being the last book in the bible, is "the Unveiling of Jesus Christ" (Rev.1:1), and is not to be confused as explaining the end times. 1Cor.15:22-28 describes the consummation of creation, the sequence of events that occur:

(1Cor.15:22-28)
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

Notice that when all is done, God will be ALL in all. (not ALL in some)

God Bless, Jerry.

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
I know I had a hard time believing this, having been taught "heaven or hell" by various church denominations over my lifetime.

You JUST declared it a work in saying you 'had a hard time beleiving this'.

quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:But God has shown me the truth, (and this is not of me, lest I should boast).

2 Corinthians 10:5
casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

Jerry,

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This was written during the age of grace. Sadly millions will spend eternity in hell.
I urge you to study your Bible more.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi again Betty, that last scripture I quoted should have been Heb.9:8-12.

Blessings, Jerry.

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chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi Betty, thanks for your reply. I would like to take this opportunity to reply, if I may.

You say...Jesus, Himself said people will spend eternity in Hell. Salvation is not Universal. Only those who proclaim Jesus as Lord and serve Him will spend eternity in Heaven.
You quote Jesus' teaching, But He was "not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" Matt.15:24.
See Eph.2:11-12..."11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. If you'correctly cut the word of truth (2.Tim.2:5) then His (Jesus') teaching was for the Jews (His lost sheep) in that era. To apply them to us, in this present era of "Grace", is irrelevant, it is an error in teaching.

Also in the other scriptures you refer to in Matthew and John, are in the same category, not to us in this present era of "grace".

Also when you refer to Rev.20:15, the 'Lake of fire" This is a figurative quote, it is the "second death". (Rev.20:14)

Lastly you say "Jesus did not teach universal salvation". You are correct in this instance, Jesus message was, as the prophesied Messiah, to Israel, the entrance into the "Kingdom". This was the earthly destination for Israel if they had accepted their 'Messiah', which still will come to pass when God makes the "New Covenant" with Israel in the future. (Heb.9:12)

Thanks for your correspondence, much appreciated.

God Bless, Jerry.

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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

I am sorry but all you are doing is making excuses for you WRONG belief that salvation is Universal.
Jesus, Himself said people will spend eternity in Hell. Salvation is not Universal. Only those who proclaim Jesus as Lord and serve Him will spend eternity in Heaven.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The IF is a big word here.
—Synonyms 1, 2. If, provided, providing imply a condition on which something depends.
The promise of salvation is depending upon you confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in Him.

Jesus taught a literal hell and made it clear that people who refuse the gift of salvation will spend eternity in hell

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, [fn2] as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus did NOT teach Universal Salvation.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi Betty, Carol, & Zeena.
Thanks for your evidence that is refuting the "Salvation of all". I too, in my early walk with God, thought that I could effect my own salvation. This brought on much 'worry' at times, am I doing what God wants me to do to be saved? So many different views from the various denominations, (churches) that I attended in my search for truth. What a relief when I was baptised with the "holy spirit" (Acts.1:5 seeing that John, indeed, baptizes in water, yet you shall be baptized in holy spirit after not many of these days.") What a relief, that I was not responsable, that God was in complete control, (Eph.1-11) and that He is working in me, "He" chose me, I had no part in my salvation, for "His achievement are we" (Eph.2:10)
GOD ALONE is our Saviour. Through Isaiah, He declares, “I, I, Yahweh am El [God]! And there is no Saviour apart from Me” (Isa.43:11). He is the Subjector and the Saviour: “An El, just, and a Saviour. And none is there except Me” (Isa.45:21).
Our need for God is an all-encompassing one. We need Him “every hour,” continually, not merely upon occasion. For at all times we either need to be saved from sinful practices or to be preserved in the paths of righteousness.
The presence of God’s saving power is often unrecognized, even among those in whom it is operating extensively. Ignorance of divine grace is a primary cause of human ingratitude. Men are inordinately proud of their self-control, for they suppose it to be their own creation. They do not realize that self-control, along with all else that is virtuous and agreeable, is always a fruit of the spirit (Gal.5:23); it is never a work of the flesh.
It is a major step forward when the unbeliever finally turns to God, having discovered that he is not really self-sufficient after all. It is at least as great an advancement when the believer repudiates all confidence in the flesh, and begins to rely upon God alone.
Whenever we are faithful, it is true, in a relative sense, that thus we “save ourselves” (for example, from withdrawing from the faith; cf 1 Tim.4:1,16). But we only do this in His grace. Therefore boasting in man is debarred: “Toil I—yet not I but the grace of God which is with me” (1 Cor.15: 10).
Our actions are God’s channels; they are not a source, but a conduit. Any course of action which we may take which is essential to a goal, is the fruit, not the root of salvation. Though practical salvation is through our works, it is not out of our works. For grace is not out of works, and salvation is both in and by grace. “Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace” (Rom. 11:6). Should we be enabled to carry such marvelous salvation into effect in our lives, this will be so thanks to our Saviour, not ourselves: “For it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight” (Phil.2:13).
All that is faithful and pleasing to God is due in its entirety to His gracious provision and direction. A realization of this truth is essential to maturity and humility. For no one can walk humbly with his God who conceives of himself as the one who finally turns defeat into victory. Therefore, we must not boast of what we have “let” the Lord do in our lives. Submission to Him can never afford us an occasion for self-boasting, but only a further opportunity to thank God for His saving grace.
It wounds our self-respect to think that we might actually need such a gracious and powerful provision. And when we recognize God’s true grace, it cuts ever so deeply into our pride. Many are ready to assure us that such grace is neither given nor needed. We find such claims to be quite flattering; they make it easier for us to preserve our self-reliant attitudes and ways.
However, we will do well to consider the story of the gracious creditor and his two debtors, one of whom owed ten times more than the other. Since neither were able to pay, “he deals graciously with them both” (Luke 7:42). Though both were appreciative, it was the one “with whom he deals the more graciously” who was “loving him more” (Luke 7:42,43). Similarly, when God gives us an understanding and appreciation of the graciousness of His operations, both for us and in us, we are enabled to love Him more.
May we not, like Belshazzar, exalt ourselves over the Lord of the heavens, in Whose hand is our breath, and “for Whom” are all our paths (cf Dan.5:23). When we exalt ourselves, due to our failure to perceive God’s all-sufficient hand upon us, we fail to honor Him. When we take such an approach, our career can only be “weighed on the scales and found lacking” (cf Dan.5:27).

Blessings, Jerry.

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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

ETERNAL LIFE (Heaven, Resurrection, Salvation)

What are the characteristics of eternal life?

BIBLE READING: Isaiah 32:1-20

KEY BIBLE VERSE: The fruit of righteousness will be peace; the effect of righteousness will be quietness and confidence forever. (Isaiah 32:17, NIV)

Eternal life is complete peace. God acts from above to change man’s condition here on earth. Only when God’s Spirit is among us can we achieve true peace and fruitfulness (Ezekiel 36:22-38; Galatians 5:22-23). The settings described here will happen in full only in the end times. But we can have God’s Spirit with us now, for he is available to all believers through Christ (John 15:26). The outpouring mentioned here happens when the worldwide kingdom of God is established for all eternity (see Joel 2:28-29).

BIBLE READING: John 3:1-21

KEY BIBLE VERSE: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16, NIV)

Eternal life will be radically different from this life. Some people are repulsed by the idea of eternal life because their lives are miserable. But eternal life is not an extension of a person’s miserable, mortal life; eternal life is God’s life embodied in Christ given to all believers now as a guarantee that they will live forever. In eternal life there is no death, sickness, enemy, evil, or sin. When we don’t know Christ, we make choices as though this life is all we have. In reality, this life is just the introduction to eternity. Receive this new life by faith and begin to evaluate all that happens from an eternal perspective.

BIBLE READING: 2 Corinthians 5:1-10

KEY BIBLE VERSE: Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. (2 Corinthians 5:1, NIV)

Eternal life begins in this life. Paul contrasts our earthly bodies (“earthly tent”) and our future resurrection bodies (“building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands”). Paul clearly states that our present bodies make us groan, but when we die we will not be spirits without bodies (“be unclothed”). We will have new bodies that will be perfect for our everlasting life.

Paul wrote as he did because the church at Corinth was in the heart of Greek culture, and many believers had difficulty with the concept of bodily resurrection. Greeks did not believe in a bodily resurrection. Most held that the real person was the soul, imprisoned in a physical body and that the afterlife was something that happened only to the soul. They believed that at death the soul is released—there is no immortality for the body, and the soul enters an eternal state. But the Bible teaches that the body and soul are inseparable.

The Holy Spirit within us is our guarantee that God will give us everlasting bodies at the resurrection (2 Corinthians 1:22). We have eternity in us now! This truth should give us great courage and patience to endure anything we might experience.

How can someone know they have eternal life?

BIBLE READING: John 17:1-26

KEY BIBLE VERSE: Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3, NIV)

Eternal life is ours when we know God. How do we get eternal life? Jesus tells us clearly here—by knowing God the Father himself through his Son, Jesus Christ. Eternal life requires entering into a personal relationship with God in Jesus Christ. When we admit our sin and turn away from it, Christ’s love lives in us by the Holy Spirit.

BIBLE READING: John 6:60-71

KEY BIBLE VERSE: Simon Peter replied, “Master, to whom shall we go? You alone have the words that give eternal life, and we believe them and know you are the holy Son of God.” (John 6:68-69, TLB)

Eternal life is ours through Jesus Christ . After many of Jesus’ followers had deserted him, he asked the twelve disciples if they were also going to leave. Peter replied, “To whom shall we go?” In his straightforward way, Peter answered for all of us—there is no other way. Though there are many philosophies and self-styled authorities, Jesus alone has the words of eternal life . People look everywhere for eternal life and miss Christ, the only source. Stay with him, especially when you are confused or feel alone.

BIBLE READING: Luke 18:18-30

KEY BIBLE VERSE: A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Luke 18:18, NIV)

Eternal life is not something we earn. This ruler sought reassurance, some way of knowing for sure that he had eternal life. He wanted Jesus to measure and grade his qualifications, or to give him some task he could do to assure his own immortality. So Jesus gave him a task—the one thing the rich ruler knew he could not do. “Who then can be saved?” the bystanders asked. No one can, by his or her own achievements, Jesus’ answer implied. “What is impossible with men is possible with God.” Salvation cannot be earned—it is God’s gift (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

BIBLE READING: 1 John 5:1-12

KEY BIBLE VERSE: And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 John 5:11-12, NIV)

Eternal life belongs to those who trust in Jesus. Whoever believes in God’s Son has eternal life. He is all you need. You don’t need to wait for eternal life because it begins the moment you believe. You don’t need to work for it because it is already yours. You don’t need to worry about it because you have been given eternal life by God himself—and it is guaranteed.

Some people hope that they will receive eternal life. John says we can know we have it. Our certainty is based on God’s promise that he has given us eternal life through his Son. This is true whether you feel close to God or distant from him. Eternal life is not based on feelings, but on facts. You can know that you have eternal life if you believe God’s truth. If you aren’t sure that you are a Christian, ask yourself: “Have I honestly committed my life to him as my Savior and Lord?” If so, you know by faith that you are indeed a child of God.

(The Handbook of Bible Application)

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

"But the unbeliever sees the power and presence of God not only in his own deliverance from death, but in all around him."

2 Corinthians 2:14-16
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

If when Paul experienced his vision on the road, he had rejected Christ, he would be in hell. Everyone has to choose for themselves. The Bible tells us to choose this day who we will served. We either serve Jesus or we serve the devil. Jesus died to save sinners, but He gives us freedom to chose or reject salvation. Those who reject salvation will be lost and go to hell.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jesus knocks on the door but He will not knock the door down and force us to accept salvation.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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chosenone
unregistered

posted

Salvation of an unbeliever.

The apostle Paul’s case is of surpassing significance in its bearing on the salvation of unbelievers. He was the foremost of sinners, and it cannot be denied that, among men, there was no case quite as desperate as his. All question as to God’s ability to save vanishes in the light of his call on the Damascus road. The miraculous means employed in his case surely would suffice for every one of God’s enemies. And who will deny, on sober reflection, that the appalling power and glory of the august judgment session into which the unbeliever is ushered by his resurrection will be unutterably more impressive?
The apostle’s vision passed. He came back to a scene where all was as before. He alone had changed. But the unbeliever sees the power and presence of God not only in his own deliverance from death, but in all around him. The vision does not vanish. The divine presence abides.

Blessings, Jerry.

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Carol Swenson
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Jerry

At the conclusion of the millennial reign of Christ unbelievers of all time will be raised and judged. Their resurrection is the resurrection of judgment spoken of by the Lord in John 5:29. Their judgment will take place before a Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15). Their Judge is the Lord Christ (see John 5:22, 27).

Those judged are simply called “the dead”—unbelievers (in contrast to “the dead in Christ” which refers to believers). This judgment will not separate believers from unbelievers, for all who will experience it will have made the choice during their lifetimes to reject God. The Book of Life which will be opened at the Great White Throne judgment will not contain the name of anyone who will be in that judgment. The books of works which will also be opened will prove that all who are being judged deserve eternal condemnation (and may be used to determine degrees of punishment). It is not that all their works were evil, but all were dead works, done by spiritually dead people. It is as if the Judge will say, “I will show you by the record of your own deeds that you deserve condemnation.” So everyone who will appear in this judgment will be cast into the lake of fire forever.

(Basic Theology)

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi Zeena.

Re. Matthew 12:32 ASV
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

The correct translation for Matt.12:32:
And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

There are many versions of scripture that misinterpert the greek word "aion" as everlasting, eternal, world without end, and others. the correct translation of aion in English is "eon". It is a period of time, never meaning "endless". The closest word is "age".

This error in scripture interpetation is widely used in many versions.

Blessings, Jerry.

What do you do with the Prophetic Word?

Jeremiah 6:14
They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Ezekiel 13:9-11
And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Isaiah 48:22
There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

Jerry

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10 (KJV) 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19 - 21 (KJV) 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) 28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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Betty Louise
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posted

ChossenOne,
Hell does exist and there will be billions of souls there. I hope for your sake that you are not teaching your beliefs to others, because their blood will be on you hands.
betty

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi Zeena.

Re. Matthew 12:32 ASV
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

The correct translation for Matt.12:32:
And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

There are many versions of scripture that misinterpert the greek word "aion" as everlasting, eternal, world without end, and others. the correct translation of aion in English is "eon". It is a period of time, never meaning "endless". The closest word is "age".

This error in scripture interpetation is widely used in many versions.

Blessings, Jerry.

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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

posted

chosenone

Question / Comment: Everyone will be saved and go to Heaven!

I would like you to explain Roman's 5:18 -19 'Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.'

And 2 Cor 5:18-21 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.'

Surely Christ has redeemed the whole world and coming into the revelation of this fact will indeed save our soul's..

According to these passage's, I think that they speak for themselves. I do believe that all will go to heaven. The reason why I believe this is that I believe that God The Father and the son made covenant to redeem the entire world. But that it was made to embrace the whole world. I believe that it was through Christ's faith and obedience that we all have received eternal life. Our faith only embrace's the fact that Christ did this for us all.

FOR GOD HATH CONCLUDED THEM "ALL" IN UNBELIEF, THAT HE MIGHT HAVE MERCY UPON "ALL". Romans 11:32
If we just simply read the verses that follow the above statement made by Paul (33-36) we will notice that those of us who are caught up in the "having to believe to be saved" are pretty much trying to decide for God who will make it and who won't. Yet we see that Paul states... "For who has known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counselor?" Evangelical Christianity and other religions along with them - who base their relationship with God on their performance - are the ones who seem to continue to know the mind of God and be His counselor. When someone takes the position that "believing" is what determines who is saved and who isn't, they are pretty much saying that they have figured out the "depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! and have reached the point of understanding God's judgments, and have found out about His ways". If we just simply look to Christ and realize that it was "For Him, and through Him, and to Him, are "ALL" things; to who be glory forever", that God DECIDED to save the entire world, we wouldn't have the mess that we have in our religious institutions today. The fact is that none of us have ever been able to tell God who gets in and who is out. The covenant was made between God the Father and God the Son and man was left totally out of the picture. When Adam fell, everyone fell and God did not ask anyone for permission to conclude all in unbelief, just as He did not ask anyone’s permission to conclude "ALL" under mercy. God's love is not like ours. He made the decision of choosing to save "ALL" in spite of us "ALL". So it can be said that God did not give anyone the choice to be saved. He violated their so called "Free Will" by declaring everyone guilty so that He might be the justifier of "ALL". As long as the heart is not established in Grace, we will always have the tendency as human beings in taking things out of context and seeing salvation in light of performance and earning it by good works.

Grace and Peace.

Reply:

Hi, thanks for the question and your comments.

It is fair to say that we see things quite differently. In fact, I would be surprised if even you believe some of what you have written above. I don't mean to be rude or offensive in saying this, but let me explain what I mean. You use Romans 11:33-36 to basically say that we cannot know God's mind or who it is that will be saved. So even though God's word tells us over and over that salvation is available to those that believe in the person and work of the Lord Jesus on our behalf, you undermine such faith in the word of God by saying that we can't know the mind of the Lord. And yet, you have no problem in quoting verses that you believe support your position of universal salvation , so you obviously do believe that we can know the mind of the Lord in these matters because of what the Bible teaches. Hence, you don't really believe what you have written above.

Of course we can know the mind of God in these matters! Christians are His ambassadors, with a message from God. (2 Cor 5:20). We are not to be wishy-washy on what that message is or simply say that we don't really know what God thinks on something as important as salvation! While the things of God are hidden from the natural man, we have the word of God, Christians have the Spirit of God, and through these we 'have the mind of Christ' as Paul writes. (See 1 Cor 2:10-16).

You write "When someone takes the position that "believing" is what determines who is saved and who isn't, they are pretty much saying that they have figured out the "depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! and have reached the point of understanding God's judgments, and have found out about His ways".

No, a person who takes the position that "believing" is what determines who is saved and who isn't, is simply expressing their faith in both the word of God and the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles. It isn't complicated... it is quite simple.

As Jesus said in John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” Again, it isn't complicated. The whole basis of the great commission that Jesus gave to the Church is based on this very principle... the whole reason that Jesus told us to go into the entire world and preach is so that people will believe and be saved, and not perish. Listen again to the words of Jesus, spoken after His resurrection, in all their glorious SIMPLICITY - 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.' (Mark 16:15-16)

Nor is salvation (if it is a true faith) 'a performance and earning it by good works' although some 'Christian cults' and other religions may wrongly view it this way. To place your faith in the Lord Jesus for salvation is the total opposite of trusting in yourself and your own good works or ability.

As the Apostle Paul says in Romans 4:3-5 'What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.'

As for answering your query concerning Romans 5:18 , the old saying applies here - 'Take a text out of context, and you are left with a con!' The whole book of Romans testifies to the fact that salvation is available to those who believe and have faith, and that those who reject God and salvation will perish. It certainly doesn't teach that salvation is just given to everyone whether they believe in Jesus or not, or desire salvation or not. For example some of these verses leading up to 5:18 include Rom 1:16-17, 18-32 (which shows that the wrath of God abides on those that reject the truth), 2:5-12 (the unrepentant are storing up wrath for themselves and will 'perish'), 3:22, 26-28 (justification and salvation is available through faith... to those that 'believe'), 4:1-8 (again, as both Abraham and David found, God credits 'righteousness' to those who have faith), 5:1 (justification is by faith), 17 (and this gift of righteousness is available to all because of what Jesus did, but it needs to be received). Later on, Paul returns to this topic and again shows that faith and belief are essential to salvation. See Rom 10:1-11.

William MacDonald, author of the Believers Bible Commentary writes well concerning Romans 5:18 when he says "The two 'alls' in this verse do not refer to the same people. The first 'all' means all who are in Adam. The second all means all who are in Christ. This is clear from the preceding verse "those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness..." The gift must be received by faith. Only those who trust the Lord receive justification of life."

It seems to me that you are focusing on the gift of salvation that is available to the entire world, (which is correct) and totally overlooking the need on man's behalf to accept and receive that gift through faith. Though Jesus has paid for the sins of the entire world, it is still true, as Jesus Himself to one unbeliever, that 'you shall die in your sins: for except you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins.' (John 8:24). Or, to use another analogy that Jesus Himself used concerning salvation -
'Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.' I'm sure you know the story... Those in Israel that had been bitten by the poisonous snake simply had to look to the bronze snake upon the pole to be healed and live. If they looked, they lived. If they didn't look, they perished. Jesus used this analogy because the same is true for the human race spiritually. If we look to Jesus in simple faith, we live. If we don't, we perish.

So, the bottom line is that there is a Heaven, and there is a Hell. To believe that everyone just ends up in Heaven no matter what may be a nice thought for a person to hang onto but it is a blind assumption not based on the word of God. Jesus, previewing and speaking of the judgment of mankind at the end of the age said -
'“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt 25:41-46) In no passage concerning the judgment to come is there any thought whatsoever of 'some' covenant made between the Father and the Son to save ALL mankind, irrespective of their faith, their life, and their will. There is only eternal life to the righteous and eternal punishment to the unrighteous.

"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books... The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' Rev 20:11-15

I do hope so this helps. I have not written anything to purposefully offend you but the truth about salvation is obviously important! We all have a responsibility to accurately declare the mind of God as revealed in His word.

All the best. May God bless.

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/universalsalvation.htm

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
It's no use quoting scripture that was to the Jews, they where under the "law", their entrance to the "kingdom" was obedience to the law. We gentiles where not even near God in that era,

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

So then, when the Prophets spoke of old concerning the promise to come to us by Grace through faith in Jesus the Christ, these are null and void?

Will you pick and chose which Scripture you believe is for you? Or will the Holy Spirit discern?

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi Zeena and Betty.
I realise that the salvation of all is not taught by any church. But how many denomonations of churches are there? Literly thousands, and all have some differences, that is why they preach different gospels, that is why there is so much disagreement between them. Jesus warned about this "apostacy". I notice you quote scripture from some of the four gospels, yet Jesus plainly said in Matt.15:24 "that I was not commissioned except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the Jews, still under the old covenant and the "law". Also Paul says in his epistles: Jesus for the circumcision, I (Paul) for the uncicumcision. I have posted a explanation of "correctly cutting the word of truth" in the False teaching thread, it is a must read for the serious students of scripture. It's no use quoting scripture that was to the Jews, they where under the "law", their entrance to the "kingdom" was obedience to the law. We gentiles where not even near God in that era, Eph.2.11-12 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
This was done to show us that we cannot earn our salvation. They (jews) failed, and even denied their prophesied Messiah. God has now "thrust them away" (Acts13:46) and as a result turned to the Gentiles, where we are now under the Covenant of "Grace".
Pauls epistles, especially "Ephesians", shows that "His (God) achievement are we" Eph.2:10.
We cannot earn our salvation, "lest we should boast".(Eph.2:8-9) For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.

I know I had a hard time believing this, having been taught "heaven or hell" by various church denominations over my lifetime. But God has shown me the truth, (and this is not of me, lest I shoul boast).

Thanks for letting me converse with you, it has been a pleasure.

God Bless, Jerry.

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Zeena
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posted

quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Zeena, thank you. It worries when I see people buy into that lie. I have talked to several people who are convinced that lie is true, but this is not what Jesus taught.
Have a blessed night.
betty

Don't worry Betty, and fret not.
I really don't think it makes much of a difference in accordance with Eternal Salvation, though it most definately would in witnessing..

Jeremiah 6:14
They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Ezekiel 13:9-11
And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter: Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall: there shall be an overflowing shower; and ye, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall rend it.

Matthew 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

Zeena,
thank you. It worries when I see people buy into that lie. I have talked to several people who are convinced that lie is true, but this is not what Jesus taught.
Have a blessed night.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Good catch! [clap2]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

Matthew 12:32 ASV
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

quote:
Identifying the Unpardonable Sin
By John Woodward
February 3, 2005
"Identifying the Unpardonable Sin"

One of the most important incentives for your spiritual growth and fellowship with God is the assurance of salvation (1 John 5:13). If you are not confident that your name is written in the Book of Life, how can you be secure in depending on Christ moment by moment here and now?

However, one of the issues that has often been a source of confusion and insecurity is that of "the unpardonable sin." What did Jesus mean by that frightening, solemn warning in Matthew 12:31,32? "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

The author of Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan, journalized his struggle to gain assurance. This topic had troubled him also: "I had one question that my soul did much desire to be resolved about; and that was, Whether it be possible for any soul that hath indeed sinned the unpardonable sin, yet after that to receive though but the least true spiritual comfort from God through Christ? The which, after I had much considered, I found the answer was, No, they could not, ... Because they are denied a share in the promise of life; they shall never be forgiven, 'neither in this world, neither in that which is to come' (Matt. 12.32)."[1]

Let's examine this passage in context to clarify the original warning and consider implications for us today. What is the unpardonable sin?

The Miracle with a Message

Matthew 12:22 records this undeniable miracle of the Lord Jesus: "Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw." The usual practice for an exorcism was to elicit from the demon possessed person the name of the indwelling demon. However, how could this formula be used when the afflicted person was mute? The promised Messiah was expected to have this kind of unique power and authority. No wonder the witnesses of this deliverance "were amazed and said, 'Could this be the Son of David?'" (Matt. 12:23).

This conclusion was inescapable to the honest, receptive child of Abraham. But how could the Pharisees retain their legalistic traditions and prominence when Jesus was authenticating His ministry in this powerful way? They came up with this desperate rationalization: "...they said, 'This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons'" (Matt. 12:24).

Notice that the miracle was undeniable, but its message was rejected. Their declaration of stubborn unbelief collapsed under the weight of its inherent contradictions: 1) Satan casting out his own demons would defeat his own cause by dividing his evil kingdom; 2) Jewish exorcists claimed a success rate in exorcisms, yet they were not accused of operating by Satanic power; 3) Christ's miracle of casting a demon out of a mute, blind man was a convincing evidence that the Kingdom of God had visited them--in the person of the King (Matt. 12:25-28).

This is the context of Christ's ominous verdict that the hardened hearts of the religious leaders were beyond the scope of God's forgiveness. Why? Because the Holy Spirit was the source of Christ's miracles (Cf. Luke 4:18; John 3:34) and He empowered these signs to confirm the faith of the receptive. The Holy Spirit is the One who draws sinners to the Savior: "... no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3). Yet they cursed Jesus by claiming that these miracles were Satanic; this unbelief rejected the implications of Christ's authority over the kingdom of darkness.[2]

To blaspheme (blatantly disrespect) the Holy Spirit is to reject the only One who can enable a sinner to repent, believe, and be pardoned.[3]

The Warning for Today

Some propose that this warning about the unpardonable sin doesn't apply after Christ's earthly ministry. After all, Christ is not physically present, doing such miracles as He did in the Gospels. Therefore, the exact circumstances of the unpardonable sin would not be duplicated in this age.

However, the Holy Spirit continues to testify of the person and work of Christ today. In John 16:6-11 Jesus prophesied, "I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."

The miracles of Christ still speak loudly and clearly from the pages of sacred Scripture. Their purpose is clearly stated: "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

So what is the fate of those who reject the convicting work of the Holy Spirit as He testifies through creation, conscience, and Christ? (Rom. 1:16-20;2:14-16;5:8). Today, as in the first century, those who die disbelieving the witness of God's Spirit through the gospel commit the unpardonable sin.

There will only be two outcomes on the Day of Judgment; to stand in one's own unrighteousness and be condemned, or to stand in Christ's righteousness, having been pardoned. This pardon is only by grace through repentance and faith. "He who believes in Him [Christ] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18; Cf. Matt.25:31-46, Phil. 3:7-9).

An Implicit Consolation

To those who know Christ as their Lord and Savior, Christ's warning has an implicit consolation. All other sins are pardonable! Think of it, no sins are too wicked to be washed away by the precious blood of Christ! (1 Pet. 1:18-20).

Everyone who has heeded the witness of the Holy Spirit's testimony in the gospel has full forgiveness and the basis for unshakable assurance: "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (Col. 2:13,14).

As the man who was delivered from the demon received his voice and vision, let us who believe the witness of the Spirit of God behold His wonders and declare His praise.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[1] John Bunyan (1628-1688), Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners, par. 220, 221.

[2] " ... Once arrived at the conclusion, that the miracles which Christ did were due to the power of Satan, and that He was the representative of the Evil One, their [the leading Pharisees and Sadducees] course was rationally and morally chosen. To regard every fresh manifestation of Christ's Power as only a fuller development of the power of Satan, and to oppose it with increasing determination and hostility, even to the Cross: such was henceforth the natural progress of this history. On the other hand, such a course once fully settled upon, there would, and could, be no further reasoning with, or against it ..." - Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. [Following the text at footnote 2766. Edersheim (1825-1889) was a Jewish believer, preacher, scholar, and author. These two sources are available at CCEL.org.]

[3] Only God knows when a heart is closed beyond reach. Such would seem to have been the case with Saul of Tarsus, but the risen Christ apprehended him and made Paul an unparalleled vessel of His grace (Acts 9; Gal. 1:13-17). So let's never give up praying for the lost.

Grace Notes: February 3, 2005. Copyright 2005 by John Woodward. Permission is granted to reprint this article for non-commercial use. Scripture quotations (unless indicated otherwise) are from The Holy Bible, New King James Version © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

Revelation 22:15-17 KJV
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738

posted

Amen Betty. The gospel and salvation is for Whomsoever will.

Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004 | IP: Logged |

Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

Jerry,

Universal Salvation is a lie from the pits of hell. Jesus, talked about hell. We cannot be saved if we do not accept Jesus as our Savior and Lord of our lives. Just as the devil lied to Eve, he is lying to people today.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

chosenone
unregistered

posted

Hi Betty.
Yes, I believe in the salvation of all. In 1Cor.15:22-28. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power.
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

Notice in verse 22-23 ..."in Christ, shall all be vivified". And in verse 28 that God will be "All in all." (not All in some.)

The book of Ephesians, especially the first chapter, is a very good example that shows God is in complete control, we have no part in our salvation.

Eph.2:10 "For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."

Eph.2:8-9 "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
Notice this is NOT OUT OF YOU.

Again, "All is of God"
1Cor.8:6 nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.

1Cor.11:12 For even as the woman is out of the man, thus the man also is through the woman, yet all is of God.

2Cor.5:18-19 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.

Ro.11:36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

I know that this is not believed by many, but I believe that scripture is not a book of how we are to behave, but a book of what God is doing.

God Bless, Jerry.

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Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

posted

Jerry,

Are you saying that no one goes to hell?
If so I disagree with you on that. I do not believe in Universal Salvation.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008 | IP: Logged |

chosenone
unregistered

posted

Salvation can not be lost, because God is going to "Save" all mankind.

We'll start with Isaiah 45:23,
"By myself (God) I swear. From My mouth fares forth rightiosness, And My word shall not be recalled.
For to Me shall bow every knee,
And every tounge shall acclaim to Alueim,"
This shows God is in complete control.

Next, Isaiah 46:10-11.
Saying, All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desires will I do.
Indeed, I speak! I will bring it about!
I formed. Indeed I will bring it about.
This plainly shows that God WILL DO all He desires! Despite mans so-called "free will".

More relevent scripture:
1Tim.2:4 Who (God) wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.

2Cor.18-19 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.

God chooses us, we do not choose Him.

Col.3:12-13. Put on, then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, pitiful compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, patience,
13 bearing with one another and dealing graciously among yourselves, if anyone should be having a complaint against any. According as the Lord also deals graciously with you, thus also you.

2 Tim:10. Therefore I am enduring all because of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian.

Ro 8:32-33. Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
33 Who will be indicting God's chosen ones? God, the Justifier? ...

Ro.11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused,

Ro.9:11. For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him (God) Who is calling,

Ro.8:17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ's allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also.

There are more, but this should be sufficient for now.

God Bless, Jerry.

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
But in the case of a person who WAS a believer but now no longer believes

There's no such thing.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

Eden
unregistered

posted

dear sweetdreams, you wrote

quote:
I believe once saved we are eternally secure. Those who believe salvation can be lost argue that salvation can be lost when we turn our back on God. Is this possible? Or do we actually loose sanctification?

Regarding the part I bolded, the carnal Christian who continues to believe in the work of Jesus on the cross may lose his santification but retain his salvation, but that person at least CONTINUES TO BELIEVE IN WHAT JESUS DID FOR HIM.

But in the case of a person who WAS a believer but now no longer believes and has not believed anymore now for 10 years or whatever in Darwin instead, and now thinks that the Bible stuff is "medieval thinking", such a person, who believed for several years in Jesus as genuinely as I did when I believed, this person both loses his chance at santification, but also loses his salvation because:

Salvation, I think, depends on a person's "continuous believing until death", and therefore I think that, when it comes to salvation, God measures salvation by what a person "believes at death", while God measures sanctification by what a person did in his life after first believing in Jesus Christ until his death. Two different time periods are measured here by God: belief at death for salvation, and what a believer did from believing to death for sanctification.

Be blessed, all you people in Christ especially.

Eden

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Eden
unregistered

posted

Dear Mizpa, you wrote

quote:
I don't have the luxury of putting time aside for study.

That is a copout. If you live in the USA, we can buy DVDs with the entire Bible on it that we can listen to while driving to work. The truth is that you don't see the value yet of delighting yourself in the LORD. But hear this:

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself also in the LORD: and he shall give you the desires of your heart.

Do you want your heart's desires fulfilled. Then delight yourself also in the LORD, and He will fulfill the desires of your heart. It is a quid pro quo promise.

quid pro quo = tit for tat

love, Eden

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Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Joe sixpack sinner: but aren't we all?

Is Jesus? He's a [the] man [God] isn't He?

Is Jesus a 'sinner'?

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Is He your Life?

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

posted

Joe sixpack sinner: but aren't we all? Drink deep my friend, for truth is at hand!

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

posted

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

posted

quote:
YOU WILL FIND

I don't direct you to a Nee but Christ.

Hummmm! Evidently there is a difference between posting Cornelius Stam (whom I apprecate, don't get me wrong), and posting Watchman Nee, who says the same things!!! [happyhappy]

So woldB's posts are superior because he chose them! [happyhappy]

By the way, is posting Cornelius the same as directing someone to Christ? [happyhappy]

I mean, how would that be different from posting Nee to direct someone to Christ? [happyhappy]

And for that matter, what if someone posts Paul - to direct someone to Christ? [happyhappy]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Truth is in the heart of the believer. Or not! [Bible]

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007 | IP: Logged |

Zeena
Advanced Member
Member # 7223

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Mizpa:
Zenna,

I don't understand the multitude of words you post.

Cant you make it more simpler. Im a joe 6 pack sinner.

If you have reached out to Jesus to save you in faith, BELIEVE that He is able, and WILL DO IT! [clap2]

If you have, you are longer longer a sinner but a SAINT who sometimes sins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GIPh6gkMuI

quote:
I don't have the luxury of putting time aside for study.

The above you tube link is a seven minute video, crank up the volume and do some dishes! [Wink]

quote:
I know I should.

It's only by our Fathers Grace that we accomplish ANYTHING! [Wink]

You are where He has placed you, and there ain't no shame in that! [Big Grin]

quote:
But I will try because you seam to try so much.

You don't have to try, just trust Him, and He will make Himself real to you and through you right back to God our Father! [Smile]

quote:
Also please don't forget about the Nee post.

I cannot forget, for the Love of Christ constrains me! [Wink]

Romans 14:16-17
Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

quote:
You seam so on top of things but yet , like I said What do those people at the Watchman have to say?

What people say might not be what our Heavenly Father is saying. If we MUST 'do' anything, let it be to seek Him from whom is the Truth.

quote:
Bless you that you have the time to look into these things.

God bless you too! [Kiss]

quote:
Me, I got to go now. But I am looking forward to your report back from Those that would make so many of you off balance and angry with one another.

I look forward to seeeing you again!

Go in Peace! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008 | IP: Logged |

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