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Author
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Topic: Once Saved Always Saved ?
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
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And this belief is called "Faith" and "Faith" is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9), lest any should boast. Human decision may be a response to this conversion, but human decision is never the "cause" of salvation. God did not wait for Saul to "accept Christ". Indeed as we see in John 1:13 and previously in 1 Cor 2:14 God is proactive in making spiritually alive people, out of spiritually dead people.
Faith, Dave, is the 'gift' of God. However he gave us a capacity for faith of our own. It is called "simple belief." How many times did Jesus ask someone if they 'believed'? And the fact of the matter is that the parable of the mustard seed is about 'simple belief'. For simple belief is the starting point for the the huge tree (which is the Kingdom of Heaven) which results from the 'tiny' seed, which illustration, or metaphor parallels our 'simple faith'. In fact, we have the starter faith built in, and we 'choose'. Once we have chosen, by believing (remembering that faith cometh from hearing and hearing from the word of God), should we so choose, then HIS faith kicks in, and not before.
It is manifest in us after we have believed. That makes it incumbent upon us to 'choose', as per 'by the foolishness of preaching', which is the will of God for those who will know Him. For those who do not choose, perish. This is why Paul said to, "look around you, how many noble are among you?" It is mostly those who are not blessed of this world, who more willingly 'choose' God. (1Cor 1:26)
It also follows that the beattitudes are about this very thing. Blessed are they, because they 'need' God. Moreover:
- Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
So we see that circumstances, or conditions affect people's choices. Is God in it? You bet! But it is indirect, for He will not, did not choose for us.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Uh, DaveB!
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On your second point, I also agree with you that "man's will accepts God's provision", and also that "there is no automatic ‘changing’ of the life of a person without the will of the person submitting to God". Man accepting God's provision and submission to God are essential marks of Grace. However, these marks of grace are the "results" of God's transforming the nature. We have to remember the biblical teaching that before salvation, man's will is subject to their spiritually dead nature. God must first regenerate the dead sinner, giving them a new nature, THEN, the saved person's free will is free to respond in submission and all the other marks of Grace.
Like you said in 1 John 4:19, we love because he first loved us. God's regeneration of a dead sinner is the necessary first step in salvation. As we saw in my earlier posts, a dead sinner is not willing or capable of making a spiritual decision. They can only make a psychological decision.
Now let's go to John 6:44 and also answer Daniel's question about Peter's statement in Acts.
Again Michael I agree with you, that if man does not make the choice, it is NOT made for him. Man makes the choice, but he can only make the choice after God has made the person alive by means of faith as a result of hearing the gospel.
It sounds to me like you are agreeably disagreeing! But I do not believe that anyone is 'regenerated' until by their free will, they choose, even though the Spirit anointed them to make the choice. I insist that people who have been lifted up by the Spirit, in that moment of decision, that they may be able to make the right choice, do not always! Some still harden their hearts.
But the way you tell it, they are saved first, then their will is free to agree. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) I don't believe that is the proper way to look at it.
quote:
Of DaveB quote:
So my point is, yes, man makes a choice to believe or not believe, as the call of the gospel commands all men to believe. The bible also teaches that dead sinners will never make that choice, until God regenerates them.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Dave B.
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posted
Hi Carol,
I am saddened to read that you are offended by the doctrines we have been discussing. The doctrine of salvation is so often mishandled, I am happy we have a forum where we can exchange views in a polite and Christian manner.
Again, my intent is, like everyone else, put forth the biblical view of salvation as it relates to "Once saved, always saved". In view of this, I will address your recent concerns.
I do not teach irresistable grace, as that term is not in the Bible. In Stephen's speech, which you quoted, Stephen was correctly describing the unsaved Sanhedrin members' spiritual condition. Indeed we know from this story, that one of the people standing there listening to him, was Saul of Tarsus, who guarded the cloaks of those who subsequently stoned Stephen. Later on, this same Saul, riding to Damascus on a horse, and in the same spiritual condition, was converted by God. The change in Paul was dramatic, in this case. The explanation of course, is that God had planned to Save Paul at that time. The same distinct change is noticed in Luke 22 with the criminal on the cross beside Jesus. Once he was railing on Jesus along with the other guy. Next, he is asking Jesus to remember him when he comes in his Kingdom. This is conversion and it is glorious.
Thus I agree with your next quote of John 1:12:
"To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." But we need to read the next verse as well:
John 1:13-children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
All who believe in his name (actually the greek is stronger..it says all who believe into his name) God gave the right to become children of God.
And this belief is called "Faith" and "Faith" is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9), lest any should boast. Human decision may be a response to this conversion, but human decision is never the "cause" of salvation. God did not wait for Saul to "accept Christ". Indeed as we see in John 1:13 and previously in 1 Cor 2:14 God is proactive in making spiritually alive people, out of spiritually dead people.
So we preach the gospel to all our fellow man as we are commanded to do. And we do it in love. God does the saving, applying His word to the hearts of those he intends to save, even as he did to Saul of Tarsus at some time after he helped kill Stephen for telling him the truth. Once this conversion is accomplished, God never reverses it. Thus, once saved, always saved.
I pray these answers to all of you are sound and biblical. If not, I welcome your corrections. May God continue to lead us in truth. Thanks again for listening.
-Your brother Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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posted
Dave B
You said
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I am not teaching Calvinism. I only stated that the biblical gospel is often labeled as such and then dismissed out of hand.
My goal, as is the goal of the other posters, is to answer the question "once saved always saved?" in the context of what salvation is, as opposed to what biblical salvation is not.
It isn't the "label" that offends, but the doctrine itself.
You said
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On your second point, I also agree with you that "man's will accepts God's provision", and also that "there is no automatic ‘changing’ of the life of a person without the will of the person submitting to God". Man accepting God's provision and submission to God are essential marks of Grace. However, these marks of grace are the "results" of God's transforming the nature. We have to remember the biblical teaching that before salvation, man's will is subject to their spiritually dead nature. God must first regenerate the dead sinner, giving them a new nature, THEN, the saved person's free will is free to respond in submission and all the other marks of Grace. Like you said in 1 John 4:19, we love because he first loved us. God's regeneration of a dead sinner is the necessary first step in salvation. As we saw in my earlier posts, a dead sinner is not willing or capable of making a spiritual decision. They can only make a psychological decision .
You teach total depravity.
Total Depravity vs. Free Will
According to the Calvinist belief, man’s inclination to sin has ensnared his will. Even though he can make choices according to his nature, man’s character has been so corrupted that he can never choose what is pure. Calvinists point to verses in Mark 7:21-23 and Romans 3:10-12, which say that man’s heart is utterly wicked and that no one seeks God because they have all wandered down the wrong path. Thus, man cannot accept Christ without God’s intervention. In essence, Calvinism states that man only has the free will to choose evil and that he does not have the capacity to choose God.
I disagree because:
Man can freely choose good or evil. John 3:16, "whoever believes in Him"... man has a choice to accept or reject Christ. John 7:17, "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own." This highlights man’s capacity to choose God. Through choice and faith, man can receive God’s gift of salvation.
You said
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The word "draws" is the gr: helkusay, from helko, which means to drag or to draw a sword. It means to compel a person to do something.
At the end of Jesus' discourse in John 6, Jesus concludes with:
John 6:65: He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (NIV)
Enabled in greek is really the word "it has been given". It is in the perfect tense which means it happened once and applies in full-force and effect forever. It is interesting to note that after Jesus made this statement, many of his followers walked no more with him.
You teach irresistible grace.
Irresistible Grace vs. Obstructable Grace
As an extension of the Calvinist belief of unconditional election, Calvinism also believes in irresistible grace. Since God has already predetermined who will receive salvation, His elect cannot resist His grace. God calls all people to repentance through the ‘outer call’, which can be rejected. However, God extends the ‘inner call’ to the elect alone, and this call cannot be resisted. Romans 9:16 says that salvation does not come from man's desire or effort, but is given as a result of God's mercy. Calvinists refer to Philippians 2:13, where Paul writes, "For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Salvation, therefore, comes from God’s compassion on man, rather than man’s free will choice to accept Him.
I disagree because:
God shares the Gospel, giving each individual the opportunity to accept or reject His gift of salvation. Contrary to irresistible grace, not only does man have the capacity to choose God; he also has the capability to reject God’s grace. In Stephen’s speech to the Sanhedrin, he exclaims, "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" John 1:12, "To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." People must choose for themselves whether or not they will receive God’s grace.
Your teaching leads to:
quote:
So my point is, yes, man makes a choice to believe or not believe, as the call of the gospel commands all men to believe. The bible also teaches that dead sinners will never make that choice, until God regenerates them. God's plan to regenerate people is according to God's sovereign good pleasure. Thankfully, God is very kind and has evidently planned to save many, many people.
God has predestined some to be saved, and He has predestined others to be punished for eternity .
DaveB, a person can call it whatever he chooses, and he can be ever so gentle and polite, but this doctrine is still not acceptable at the Christian BBS, unless KnowHim, the owner and administrator, has changed his beliefs.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Dave B.
Advanced Member
Member # 6710
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posted
Hello Michael, Daniel, Carol, and everyone,
Thank you so much for all of the feedback. This is a very good learning experience. Again, let me try to answer your questions/concerns as best I can.
OK Michael's question on Grace. I do not mean that God should have destroyed us. What the Bible teaches is that each one of us deserves the wrath of God for all eternity, because of our sin. Jesus himself described Hell as a place with "weeping and gnashing of teeth", "the smoke of their torment goeth up forever", and "outer darkness". I guess "destroyed" can be a good synonym, but the penalty for sin is to be consciously existing in Hell apart from God forever. This is a horrible fate.
So part of what is marvelous about God's grace, is in understanding the penalty we have been saved from. Jesus himself had to suffer this same level of penalty on behalf of every individual person who he came to save.
On your second point, I also agree with you that "man's will accepts God's provision", and also that "there is no automatic ‘changing’ of the life of a person without the will of the person submitting to God". Man accepting God's provision and submission to God are essential marks of Grace. However, these marks of grace are the "results" of God's transforming the nature. We have to remember the biblical teaching that before salvation, man's will is subject to their spiritually dead nature. God must first regenerate the dead sinner, giving them a new nature, THEN, the saved person's free will is free to respond in submission and all the other marks of Grace.
Like you said in 1 John 4:19, we love because he first loved us. God's regeneration of a dead sinner is the necessary first step in salvation. As we saw in my earlier posts, a dead sinner is not willing or capable of making a spiritual decision. They can only make a psychological decision.
Now let's go to John 6:44 and also answer Daniel's question about Peter's statement in Acts.
Again Michael I agree with you, that if man does not make the choice, it is NOT made for him. Man makes the choice, but he can only make the choice after God has made the person alive by means of faith as a result of hearing the gospel.
John 6:44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
The word "draws" is the gr: helkusay, from helko, which means to drag or to draw a sword. It means to compel a person to do something.
At the end of Jesus' discourse in John 6, Jesus concludes with:
John 6:65: He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (NIV)
Enabled in greek is really the word "it has been given". It is in the perfect tense which means it happened once and applies in full-force and effect forever. It is interesting to note that after Jesus made this statement, many of his followers walked no more with him.
So my point is, yes, man makes a choice to believe or not believe, as the call of the gospel commands all men to believe. The bible also teaches that dead sinners will never make that choice, until God regenerates them. God's plan to regenerate people is according to God's sovereign good pleasure. Thankfully, God is very kind and has evidently planned to save many, many people.
So now, let's answer Daniel's question about Peter's acts statement.
Peter replied, "Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveneness of sin, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost".
Peter is doing what we are commanded to do today. Preach the gospel. Paul told the Phillipian jailer the same thing "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved". After Jesus came up out of the water, he told people repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
It is through gospel preaching that men are saved. God uses the foolishness of preaching, as Micheal quoted, to save them that believe. And we all know that this "belief" is called faith. And faith as we know from Ephesians 2, is a gift from God.
Thus God uses gospel preaching to save those who God has determined to save at that time. So Daniel, it is not really like getting "zapped" by God. Peter, Paul, even Jesus, and we too, preach the gospel, presupposing that those who God has at that time decided to save, will respond.
Thus once again, all of the responses to preaching are responses to what God has done and is doing to the sinner. They are never the "cause". No one should say, I am saved because I "accepted" Jesus into my heart. Accepting Jesus is a religious act which anyone can perform. That's where the modern gospel of today fails. We equate "performing the act of acceptance" with salvation. The Bible never gives this as an evidence of salvation. The Bible says "believe" and that belief is a gift from God alone.
The bible teaches us to "examine ourselves". This is not a judgment on my part Daniel. I am repeating what the Bible tells all of us (including me) to do. Please do not rest on a religious act as the basis of your salvation. Again, the Bible does not support it.
OK this is long enough. Thanks again for your patient listening and your well thought out responses. Hopefully we can continue to discuss this important question.
Your friend in Christ,
Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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Dave B.
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Member # 6710
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Hi Everyone again,
Let me first answer Carol Swenson's and KnowHim's concerns. Then in the next post I will answer Michael Harrison's excellent questions.
Carol and KnowHim, I am not teaching Calvinism. I only stated that the biblical gospel is often labeled as such and then dismissed out of hand.
My goal, as is the goal of the other posters, is to answer the question "once saved always saved?" in the context of what salvation is, as opposed to what biblical salvation is not.
I am happy to abide by your restrictions. Having said that, may I continue to post my polite and well-considered views, even if some of them may differ from yours?
Yours in Christ,
David B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Dave B.
How do you reconcile your belief with Peters answer to those who asked what they must do to be saved?......Peter replied, "Repent, be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveneness of sin, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost.
I am afraid Peter would have been sadly mistaken in making this type of declaration if individuals desiring to be saved had already received the Holy Ghost having been born-again from above.
And how is it that Peter can make the declaration that the Holy Ghost is given to them that obey God? It seems to me(at least in the context of Peter' words) that there must at least be an obedience of the heart that proceeds the receiving of the Holy Ghost.
I dont know if its just me, but the theory that you provide seems to have a bit of mystery to it in that an individual is evidently at some point of time in there life suddenly (out of the blue) zapped with God's grace and given the Holy Spirit simeltaneous.
I dont know if I can buy that way of thinking Dave. I do not agree with you on how you perceive God to carry out His sovereignty, but I do agree with you that the spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God. God provides the witness and we do not have the need of another human beings assurance. In fact I think that we should desire that assurance from God, because if we only received it from man we could still be lost souls.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Dave B. O.K! I’ll start right here:
quote:
Even if God saved nobody, but simply allowed us wicked people a normal life on earth, it would still be an act of Grace on God's part. Because all of us deserve eternal damnation right now because of our sins.
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif) This shows a misunderstanding of grace, unless you simply mean that He should’ve destroyed us, and did not. Otherwise grace is the changing part. Change is what we discover if we 'have truly known' His grace. But people think of grace as meaning ‘tolerance’. In the strictest terms, grace is more than that!
quote:
Q: Is the gospel message about how God imposes His will on man? or is it a message about what man may reap if he chooses to align his will with God's?
Neither. God does not impose his will on man. God transforms the man, giving him a new nature and making him a new creature. The saved person's response to this, according to the Bible, is repentance, prayer, love, etc. This was the shocking news Jesus gave to Nicodemus in John chapter 3. You must be born again. This new birth requires an act of God..
God does not 'impose' His will upon man. Agreed! But man’s will accepts God’s provision, else there is no “giving him a new nature and making him a new creature.” There is no automatic ‘changing’ of the life of a person without the will of the person submitting to God. And this is a ‘choice’ that a man makes, not that we loved Him, but that HE loved us first.(John4:19) If man does not make that choice, it is not made for Him, though he may even be “Drawn to God, by His very Spirit.” (John 6:44) This puts an end to the supposition number two in the previous post. Here is a partial quote of that”
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Because the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, man will always use his free-will to choose sin and will never, of his own free-will, accept Christ or repent. This is because the nature rules the will and our natures will not accept the spiritual things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Thus being "born again" requires an act of God, changing the nature, which rules the will. Thus "coming forward", "repentance" are "responses" to being born again, instead of "causes" of being born again.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Why did it ‘please God by the foolishness of preaching’? It is because HE wanted man’s free will to be involved. God’s Spirit can lift a man up, positioning him to ‘receive’ the free gift of salvation, and he still can refuse. You can argue until someone sees a cow breakdance in a barnyard, but it is so!
So this next paragraph is out of line because ‘fruit of a changed life’ is evidence of “Belief,” which is evidence of free will choice, which depends not upon ‘feelings’ which one may seek for after having ‘gone’ to the alter, if they did not find them then and there.
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It is just the evidence of salvation is never your acceptance of Christ, but instead, as the Bible teaches, the evidence of a transformed life and the witness of the Spirit with your spirit that you are children of God. That's why the Bible urges us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. Please don't ever trust in a religious act, like coming forward, or "accepting Christ" or any other religious act, as the proof that you are a Christian. The Bible does not support it.
I agree wholly with the part about the Spirit bearing witness with ‘your’ spirit, however, that isn’t always immediately apparent. That is why there is a call to ‘’persevere’’, perhaps to demonstrate to God, or one‘s self, their commitment. One cannot simply ‘cast off’ an agreement like that as though God did not honor their faith, else God is not true. If one went to the alter, he had better believe that he meant it. Else, he had better recognize that God recognized it. And a transformed life is not always immediately apparent. Sometimes one has to, “Suffer in the flesh before he has ceased from sin.” (1 Peter 4:1) So you place yourself in the ‘judgment seat’ of the brethren when you make the statement that you do. You have heard that, "God is not through with them yet."
But oh dread, your ‘once saved always saved’ dogma is nonsense, and based on a flimsy notion. (How we have gone through that on this board. But I am always game.) I can see how you come to this conclusion based on the way you relate your understanding of the gospel. But.............
But going back to freewill and choice, if we read scripture we will find in one place that, "God hardened Pharoh's heart." We will find in another that, "Pharoah hardened his own heart."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
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KnowHim said "DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website."
DaveB said:
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The biblical gospel states that Jesus paid for the sins of those he had come to save (the elect, as Jesus himself says ). At some pre-determined time in their life, God applies the payment of Jesus' to the elect sinner through the hearing of the word of God, gives them a new nature (being born again john 3:3) and imputes Jesus' righteousness to their account. The result of this is a sinner living a transformed life, marked by repentance, prayer, forgiveness, hatred for his or her sin, love for Christ, God and man etc.
The presupposition of the biblical gospel (sometimes derisively labeled "Calvinism") is that all men are sinners with free-will. Because the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, man will always use his free-will to choose sin and will never, of his own free-will, accept Christ or repent. This is because the nature rules the will and our natures will not accept the spiritual things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Thus being "born again" requires an act of God, changing the nature, which rules the will. Thus "coming forward", "repentance" are "responses" to being born again, instead of "causes" of being born again.
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
posted March 17, 2008 16:35
quote:
No more warnings. DO NOT TEACH calvinism on this website.
Calvanism is based on a limited and crippled understanding of Scripture.
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005455;p=1
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Dave B.
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Hi Daniel, Carol,
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'll try to answer your concerns best I can.
Q: If God's love is not partial, why do you feel that He would execute partiality by only allowing certain particular individuals the ability to respond in repentance and faith?
We all agree the Bible teaches God's love is not partial. But the problem is not with God's love. The problem is sin. The biblical gospel teaches that all of us hate God, love darkness and are dead in trespasses and sins. God does not execute partiality in saving sinners. God instead executes Grace.
Even if God saved nobody, but simply allowed us wicked people a normal life on earth, it would still be an act of Grace on God's part. Because all of us deserve eternal damnation right now because of our sins.
So to answer, God saving even one sinner, who deserves hell, is not "partiality" at all. It is Grace.
Q: Is the gospel message about how God imposes His will on man? or is it a message about what man may reap if he chooses to align his will with God's?
Neither. God does not impose his will on man. God transforms the man, giving him a new nature and making him a new creature. The saved person's response to this, according to the Bible, is repentance, prayer, love, etc. This was the shocking news Jesus gave to Nicodemus in John chapter 3. You must be born again. This new birth requires an act of God.
Because the sinner is spiritually dead, he is not able to make a spiritual decision. 1 Cor 2:14 describes the "natural man" as being unable to accept the spiritual things of God, nor understand them. The word for natural in this verse is the greek "psukikos", where we get our English word "psychological". Thus because an unsaved person is spiritually dead, the only decisions they can make are psychological decisions. In order for a sinner to respond in spirit to God, he must first be transformed, or "born from above" as Jesus told Nicodemus. Thus "regeneration" or the new birth, must be the first step in salvation. The response of someone who God has just made alive, will be to believe.
This is why the modern gospel is so dangerous.
The modern gospel presupposes that a dead sinner can somehow choose to accept Christ sincerely enough, to trigger God to respond to the decision and make them "born again".
The modern gospel usually requires a pastor preach toward "making a decision". Of course, the only decision an unsaved person can make is a psychological one. That's why many churches have stopped preaching the gospel and instead preach psychology. "Come forward and have a meaningful relationship with God", or "come forward and be free from your addictions". But the biblical gospel calls all men to "repent and believe the gospel" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. This is the gospel that God uses to save his people.
In the modern gospel, a decision for Christ is regarded as evidence of salvation. In the Biblical gospel, the evidence of salvation is never a religious act, but a transformed life. If we examine ourselves and find there is no "fruit", that our lives are pretty much the same as before God saved us, we must never say "but i know I am a Christian because I accepted Jesus when I was 16". The performance of "the act of acceptance" is no where in the Bible given as evidence of salvation. The evidence of salvation is that evidence that lends itself to a new nature.
Because God, when He saves a sinner, transforms them into a new creature with this new nature, we can see this is permanent and eternal. Thus the answer to the question "Once saved always saved" is yes. Once saved. Always saved. Most of the confusion then, of this issue has to do with an honest misunderstanding of who God is, and what salvation is.
Thanks again for your good questions. May God bless and transform all of us.
Your in Christ:
Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Dave B.
If God's love is not partial, why do you feel that He would execute partiality by only allowing certain particular individuals the ability to respond in repentance and faith?
Is the gospel message about how God imposes His will on man? or is it a message about what man may reap if he chooses to align his will with God's?
Because God is sovereign does not have to mean that He imposes His will on ours.
No Christian would disagree that God's Word, by the love of the truth, has the power to change a man's heart.........and God in His sovereignty surely could have provided us all with the resources that enable us to make a decision in response to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I contend that the disagreements that arise over this issue could be as a result of what some perceive "the will of God" to mean. I have heard that it may be defined by both "the desire of God" as well as "His Words of promise that He will bring to pass".
I am not going to claim to be an expert on both sides of the fence, but I do believe that we should exercise caution and consider the possibility of two extremes.....
1. Making God soooooo "in control" that we hold Him responsible for sin.
2. Making man soooooo "in control" that he/she can create his/her own destiny regardless of God's purpose and plans.
All in all, I believe that those who are made born-again are those who will come to God on His terms..........and those terms are layed out by His Son Jesus Christ in the gospels......a call to repentance, a call to believe on Him as saviour from sin, and a call to follow Him all the days of our life no matter what the cost.
Does God really only give certain individuals the ability to respond to the call of Jesus?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Zeena
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posted
5 point calvinism?
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008
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Dave B.
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Hi everyone again,
My response is primarily directed at Michael Harrison's reply to me on August 2nd.
Michael, Salvation is entirely an act of God, and it is precisly because it is an act of God which gives it the eternal value. If salvation depended in any way on us to "cause", then the value would be grossly diminished. This is the teaching of the Bible.
Now, the statement Michael made, that salvation required an act on our part. The Bible teaches that this is true. Repentance, obedience, prayer, confession, are all evidences given by the Bible of behaviors associated with a life of a sinner who has been made alive by means of faith. But we must be careful to note, the Bible gives these acts as "responses" to what God has done to the sinner. These acts are never the "cause" of their salvation.
Today in the USA and elsewhere, there are two distinct gospels being preached by men of sincere motivation.
1. The popular, modern gospel says that Jesus died for the sins of all people who ever lived. But this salvation does not apply unless the sinner, while he is still dead in trespasses and sins, "accepts" this gift. When the sinner sincerely accepts Christ, God applies the payment of Jesus' to the sinner, gives them a new nature (being born again) and imputes Jesus' righteousness to their account. Thus for this gospel, "regeneration" follows acceptance of Christ as one's "personal saviour". Most if not all churches who practice "altar calls" have adopted this model of salvation.
The pre-supposition of this gospel is that man, while dead in trespasses and sins, has the ability (free-will) to accept Christ either by nature (Charles Finney pelagianism) or because Christ's atonement gave everyone enough "prevenient grace" to accept Christ (John Wesley arminianism) when they hear the word of God. Thus, coming forward and accepting Christ is the "cause" of being born again. Christ's payment on the cross is of no value unless the sinner acts.
2. The biblical gospel states that Jesus paid for the sins of those he had come to save (the elect, as Jesus himself says). At some pre-determined time in their life, God applies the payment of Jesus' to the elect sinner through the hearing of the word of God, gives them a new nature (being born again john 3:3) and imputes Jesus' righteousness to their account. The result of this is a sinner living a transformed life, marked by repentance, prayer, forgiveness, hatred for his or her sin, love for Christ, God and man etc.
The presupposition of the biblical gospel (sometimes derisively labeled "Calvinism") is that all men are sinners with free-will. Because the sinner is dead in trespasses and sins, man will always use his free-will to choose sin and will never, of his own free-will, accept Christ or repent. This is because the nature rules the will and our natures will not accept the spiritual things of God (1 Cor 2:14). Thus being "born again" requires an act of God, changing the nature, which rules the will. Thus "coming forward", "repentance" are "responses" to being born again, instead of "causes" of being born again.
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Can gospel#1 and gospel #2 both be true? The answer is no. Either the Bible teaches that man is able to make a choice contrary to his nature, or he cannot or will not.
I believe this is an important discussion, because it points to the question "what is salvation"?
I know from experience that most people in the churches today subscribe to the modern gospel. The doctrines of salvation of the modern gospel are relatively new compared with the biblical doctrine of salvation by grace by means of faith. We do not suggest of course, those who believe gospel #1 are not saved. Of course they could be.
It is just the evidence of salvation is never your acceptance of Christ, but instead, as the Bible teaches, the evidence of a transformed life and the witness of the Spirit with your spirit that you are children of God. That's why the Bible urges us to examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith. Please don't ever trust in a religious act, like coming forward, or "accepting Christ" or any other religious act, as the proof that you are a Christian. The Bible does not support it.
Well, thanks for reading this long response. May God bless you all as we have this great discussion.
Dave B.
Posts: 28 | From: San Francisco | Registered: Aug 2007
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chosenone
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God’s calling of the nation of Israel into the kingdom of the heavens, in which “many are the called and few are the chosen” (Matt.22:14), is an entirely different calling than the calling which Paul presents here for the members of the body of Christ, according to his evangel.
In our holy calling, God’s choice precedes His call, and that by a vast expanse of time (2 Tim.1:9; Eph.1:4). God’s call is of His chosen ones, and they will respond. In Paul’s evangel, election is first. Subsequently, all these chosen ones are called; then they are all justified and finally all glorified. All who are called were first all chosen.
But in the calling concerning the kingdom of the heavens, the opposite is the case. Many who were called are finally not chosen. There election is last. Only a few of the vast number who are called are finally chosen.
Worthiness is essential for entrance into the kingdom of the heavens (cf Matt.22:8; Luke 20:35). Yet for ourselves, worthiness is not essential to the allotment of life eonian (cf Rom.5:20,21; Titus 3:7), but only to having a part, or allotment, in God’s kingdom (His government or “reign”; cf Gal.5:21; 2 Tim.2:12). All the members of Christ’s body will enjoy glorious life in the oncoming eons, and they will possess it as a gracious gift (cp Eph.2:7; Col.3:3,4; 1 Cor.15:51-53).
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Yet nothing is more common than for theologians and professors to rehearse a variety of passages in which these words in question appear, which, to the popular mind (including that of most scholars ), indeed, seem to refer to endlessness.
Yep!
Isaiah 9:6 - 7 (NLT)
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 His government and its peace will never end. He will rule with fairness and justice from the throne of his ancestor David for all eternity. The passionate commitment of the LORD of Heaven’s Armies will make this happen!
Isaiah 60:19 - 21 (NLT)
19 “No longer will you need the sun to shine by day, nor the moon to give its light by night, for the LORD your God will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. 20 Your sun will never set; your moon will not go down. For the LORD will be your everlasting light. Your days of mourning will come to an end. 21 All your people will be righteous. They will possess their land forever, for I will plant them there with my own hands in order to bring myself glory.
Daniel 12:1 - 3 (NLT)
1 “At that time Michael, the archangel who stands guard over your nation, will arise. Then there will be a time of anguish greater than any since nations first came into existence. But at that time every one of your people whose name is written in the book will be rescued. 2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace. 3 Those who are wise will shine as bright as the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Zeena
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1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
So then, Jesus was just the God of that 'age' Jerry?
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008
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Betty Louise
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Jer 32:33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching [them], yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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chosenone
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About eon, eonian.
Concordant Studies
EON AS INDEFINITE DURATION
(PART ONE)
FROM THE EARLY TIMES OF CHURCH HISTORY the words aiõn and aiõnios (“eon” and “eonian” in the Concordant Version) have been the subject of much controversy. This is because the question of their meaning is central to the issue of “eternal punishment.”
Many holding our essential position will say that aiõn means “age,” not “[for] ever.” While this is a step in the right direction and in a loose sense is even correct, it is problematic, and leaves some legitimate room for objection.
For example, were we to use “age” as our basis for representing aiõnios, it would depend on what we have in mind by “age” whether we should say “age-pertaining,” or “age-lasting.” In any case, uniform translation would be impossible and interpretation would be unavoidable. This is because some usages of aiõn are for only a portion of one of the scriptural, epochal eons. Yet it is true that aiõn itself is often used in reference to the entire duration of whatever “age” may be in view in any certain context. “Age-pertaining,” besides being awkward, assumes that the notion of “time-periodness” is inherent to aiõn, which is incorrect; “age-lasting,” adds the further problem of affirming that that which is eonian, always obtains for the entirety of an eon, which is also incorrect.
It is best to use or at least conceive the word “duration” instead of “age” (or even “eon”) when we are considering these things, even if, in translation, “duration” would be too awkward. It is true that for most readers, the English “eon” confines the idea signified to a period of time. Yet even those who differ with us in our teaching, even from their own perspective, can make no legitimate objection to the rendering “eon,” itself, since more comprehensive dictionaries include among their definitions for this word not only the idea of a period of time, but of “everlastingness” as well.
“Eon” seems to be the only practical and objective word to use in translation. However, to be objective when considering this word in Scripture, with a view toward establishing its essential meaning, one must conceive of it non-interpretatively, simply as an anglicized transliteration of aiõn, similar to “baptize” for baptizõ. Yet, after determining its meaning, in considering further its varied usages, one must also recognize that it is no more true that this word exclusively refers to the epochal eons of Scripture, than that it sometimes speaks of the notion of boundless eternity. Nonetheless, we have found that nearly all of the usages of aiõn in the Greek Scriptures do refer to the epochal eons of history (i.e., the “eonian times,” 2 Tim.1:9; see the Keyword Concordance entries “eon” and “eonian”). Only a few New Testament aiõn texts concern some other briefer period (e.g., not washing feet [John 13:8], or not eating meat [1 Cor.8:13], “for the eon” [i.e., duration]).
LEXICOGRAPHY, THE CLASSICS,
AND THE SEPTUAGINT
Scriptural usage alone is authoritative. Yet since many will appeal to lexicography (inasmuch as many lexicographers claim that olam, together with aiõn and aiõnios, “sometimes” means “everlasting” or “eternal”), we would only point out that lexicographers differ in their opinions; and, even where they concur, this is no proof that they are correct. The words of the apostle Paul ever remain good advice, “let no one be boasting in men” (1 Cor.3:21).
“Now lexicography must always be consulted, especially on disputed words, cum grano salis. A theologian, in his definition, is quite certain to shade technical words with his own belief, and lean one way or the other, accord to his own predilections. Unconsciously and necessarily, the lexicographer who has a bias in favor of any doctrine will tincture his definitions with his own idiosyncracies. Very few have sat judicially, and given meanings to words with reference to their exact usage; so that one must examine dictionaries concerning any words whose meaning is disputed, with the same care that should be used in reference to any subject on which men differ.”1
In our consideration of lexicography, we should note that the primary usage of aiõn, both in early and later Greek, is that of the duration of one’s life. “The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius (c. 400-600 A.D.), defines aiõn thus: ‘The life of man, the time of life.’ At this early date, no theologian had yet imported into the word the meaning of endless duration. It retained only the sense it had in the Classics, and in the Bible . . . . John of Damascus (c. 750 A.D.) says, ‘The life of every man is called [his] aiõn . . . . The whole duration or life of this world is called aiõn . . . . The life after the resurrection is called the aiõn to come’ . . . .
“But in the sixteenth century, Phavorinus was compelled to notice an addition, which subsequently to the time of the famous Council of 544 had been grafted onto the word. He says: ‘Aiõn, time, also [by association] life, also habit, or way of life. Aiõn is also the eternal and the endless as it seems to the theologian.’ Theologians had succeeded in using the word in the sense of endless, and Phavorinus was forced to recognize their usage of it. His phraseology shows conclusively enough that he attributed to theologians the authorship of that use of the word.
“Alluding to this definition, Ezra S. Goodwin, one of the ripest scholars and profoundest critics, says, ‘Here I strongly suspect is the true secret brought to light of the origin of the sense of eternity in aiõn. The theologian first thought he perceived it, or else he placed it there. The theologian keeps it there, now . . . . Hence it is that those lexicographers who assign eternity as one of the meanings of aiõn uniformly appeal for proofs to either theological Hebrew or Rabbinical Greek, or some species of Greek subsequent to the age of the Seventy [i.e., the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures], if not subsequent to the age of the apostles, so far as I can ascertain.’ The second definition by Phavorinus is extracted literally from the ‘Etymologicon Magnum’ of the ninth or tenth century. This gives us the usage from the fourth to the sixteenth century, and shows us that, if the word meant endless at the time of Christ, it must have changed from limited duration in the Classics, to unlimited duration, and then back again, at the dates above specified! [Yet] from the sixteenth century onward, the word has been defined as used to denote all lengths of time from brief to endless . . . .”2
In considering the usage of aiõn in the Greek Classics (the literature with which the authors of the Septuagint were familiar), Hanson says further concerning Goodwin, that, earlier in the nineteenth century, he “patiently and candidly traced this word through the Classics, finding the noun frequently in nearly all the writers, but not meeting the adjective until Plato, its [apparent] inventor, used it. [Goodwin] states, as the result of his protracted and exhaustive examination from the beginning down to Plato, ‘We have the whole evidence of seven Greek writers, extending through about six centuries, down to the age of Plato, who make use of aiõn, in common with other words; and no one of them ever employs it in the sense of eternity.’ When the Old Testament was translated from the Hebrew into Greek by the Seventy, the word aiõn had been in common use for many centuries.
“It is preposterous to say that the Seventy would render the Hebrew olam by the Greek aiõn and give to the latter (1) a different meaning from that of the former, or (2) a different meaning from aiõn in the current Greek literature. It is self-evident, then, that aiõn in the Old Testament means exactly what olam means, and also what aiõn means in the Greek Classics. Indefinite duration is the sense of olam, and it is equally clear that aiõn has a similar signification . . . . I do not know of an instance in which any lexicographer has produced the usage of ancient classical Greek in evidence that aiõn means eternity. Ancient classical Greek rejects it altogether’ (by ‘ancient’ he means the Greek existing anterior to the days of the Seventy).
“Thus it appears that when the Seventy began their work of giving the world a version of the Old Testament that should convey the sense of the Hebrew Bible, they must have used aiõn in the sense in which it was then used. Endless duration is not the meaning the word had in Greek literature at that time. Therefore the word cannot have that meaning in Old Testament Greek. Nothing can be plainer than that Greek literature at the time the Old Testament was rendered into the Greek Septuagint did not give to aiõn the meaning of endless duration.”3
THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES
An objective consideration of the facts of Scripture shows that the essence of olam (and therefore of aiõn as well, its equivalent, whether in the Septuagint or in the New Testament) is simply duration. As Vladimir Gelesnoff wrote, “The Hebrew olam is derived from a primitive root meaning to veil from sight, to conceal. A conspectus of the passages proves that olam expresses duration, the whole time during which a person, thing, or state, exists . . . . It may, therefore, be rendered [correctly as to interpretative sense if not to essential meaning] by any term expressing the duration required.
“Mankind began with Adam. As at present constituted, it will have an end. Hence, if olam is used of persons, it expresses their whole life, or life-time; if a succession of generations, or the state of a people, mankind, or creation, then a period of time, an extended period of time, commensurate with the specific application (e.g., Prov.22:28; Gen.6:4; Psa.77:5, 143:3; Joshua 24:2) . . . .
“The Hebrew servant whose ear was bored became a bondman ‘for ever,’ that is, for life (Ex.21:6) . . . . ‘For ever’ in 1 Chronicles 22:10 covers the forty years of Solomon’s reign; in 1 Kings 8:13 and 9:3, it is the time when the temple was in existence . . . . Further passages such as Ecclesiastes 1:4 and Psalm 78:69 which speak of the earth abiding ‘for ever,’ when compared with passages such as Matthew 5:18, 2 Peter 3:7-10, Revelation 21:1, make evident that the ‘for ever’ of both the Psalmist and Ecclesiastes is coeval with the continuance of the present earth, from its making in Genesis 1:3-31 to its dissolution in Revelation 21:1 . . . .
“The crowning proof that the idea of endlessness is foreign to olam is afforded by the phrase ‘for ever and ever.’ The English reader may suppose the second ‘ever’ to be the same word as the first. But it is not. The Hebrew is va-ed. As the Septuagint translates it, ‘and still,’ and as the translators have so rendered it in scores of places, we will translate it ‘beyond’ or ‘further.’ Now, if olam meant endlessness as some say it does, why reinforce it by adding ‘beyond’? Nor is this all. Further study discloses that even olam va-ed (‘for ever and ever’) does not refer to infinitude. The Psalmist says: ‘I will keep Your law continually, forever’ [i.e., ‘for the eon and beyond’; CV, Psa.119:44]. Now, as our Lord plainly indicates the passing away of the law (Matt.5:17,18), it follows that law observance is over once the law is done away. The terminal point of the Ages is hid from the ancient prophets. Beyond the era of Israel’s restoration they see dimly a farther stretch. But it is too distant to discern the faintest outline or catch a feeble glimmer of its glory. As a huge orb of light appears to a spectator myriads of miles away a mere tiny speck, remote futurity to the Hebrew seers is a far-off, vague, indistinct something which they style beyond. It was reserved for the apostle to the nations to observe the age of ages at close range and unveil its consummative glory in his own marvelous unfoldings.”4
“Yahweh, He shall reign for the eon and further” (Ex.15:18). The reign of Yahweh, in the Person of Christ, will continue not “for ever,” but until the consummation, when He gives up the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24). Similarly, the mercy of Yahweh is “for the eon and further” (Psa.52:8). The Scripture discloses a sinless past and anticipates a flawless future. Hence the provision of mercy “for the eon and further,” makes it coextensive with the existence of offense while circumscribing the time during which it will be needed.
The Hebrew olam va-ed, and its Greek equivalent “for the eons of the eons,” then, convey the idea of terminable, though chronologically indefinite and unrevealed duration.
The idea of the nouns (olam, or aiõn) is always “[for the] duration” of that which is in view. The duration which is in view must always be judged from the context, or from the nature of things, otherwise known. Therefore, the adjectival idea is, “of or pertaining to the duration (of that which is in view).” In some cases, especially in the Hebrew Scriptures, the duration which is in view (whether used of the past or future) is not at all referring to the epochal eons (i.e., those eons which, abiding for long periods, correspond to the system [or world] which, during any certain time, prevails on earth; e.g., Eph.2:2).
Often, the references are only to a much briefer duration, such as the length of time when a people lived in a certain region (Joshua 24:2); the brief duration of Jonah’s experience inside the great fish (Jonah 2:6); or the duration of the remainder of a slave’s lifetime in which he would serve his master (Deut.15:17). Yet no such usages or any others affect the meaning of olam itself; they only show that it is used in reference to many diverse durations.
There does not seem to be anything in the word itself that would definitively preclude at least the possibility that it could be used in reference to an unending duration (since, after all, all the word says is “duration”). Nonetheless, as Brother Gelesnoff’s article points out, when olam is used epochally (i.e., of long-continuing duration), its references are still governed by the words “and further,” even as by the subjects to which both these phrases (“for the olam” and, “and further”) refer, namely, the millennial kingdom, and the new earth which follows it.
The primary epochal usage of olam, points to the Messianic kingdom, which, as we later learn, is of one thousand years’ duration. Yet when the words “and further” are added, we are brought to the period of which Isaiah prophesies (Isa.66:22), the period which Peter confirms (2 Peter 3:13) and John sees in vision (Rev.21, 22), the epochal new heavens and new earth.
We know that the apostle John’s vision is, indeed, of an epochal period, not of endless duration. We know this simply because while John, in Revelation 21 and 22, speaks of the reign of Christ, of saints, and of kings of the earth, while affirming the presence of the second death, Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15, speaks of Christ reigning until He gives up the reign (the kingdom); indeed, of the time when all sovereignty and authority is nullified (which therefore includes that of both the saints and the kings of the earth), and even of the time when death itself is abolished, the glorious day when all will finally have that life of which Christ is the Firstfruit, all unto the end that God may be All in all (1 Cor.15:28). Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead.
Indeed, no sane and unprejudiced mind will claim otherwise. A sane and unprejudiced mind, however, is the gift of God. All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are concealed in Him (Col.2:3). We cannot enlighten others, though God may enlighten others through us. If most cannot accept our testimony, we can only assure ourselves that we are simply believing what the Scriptures actually say.
CONFUSION CONCERNING WORD MEANING
The fact is that God will one day abolish death and become All in all (1 Cor.15:26,28). Such a glorious consideration itself precludes any legitimate claim that these words in question, olam and aiõn, may sometimes refer to an unending duration of punishment.
Yet nothing is more common than for theologians and professors to rehearse a variety of passages in which these words in question appear, which, to the popular mind (including that of most scholars), indeed, seem to refer to endlessness. Then the claim is made that olam (or aiõn) “has a wide range of meaning,” which is to say a plurality of meanings, including the idea of endlessness, whether in reference to the past or future.
Scholars are correct when they stress that meaning must be determined by context; yet they err when, failing to distinguish special usage from essential meaning, they claim that word meaning may well be plural and is to be determined by “the context,” or, more accurately, by the presuppositions which they bring to the context. Since ordinary believers have no idea what the truth may be about such things, they simply accept the scholars’ word. Yet if the scholars are either bound by tradition, or simply do not think fully logically on these questions, they will be confident that they are correct, and will dismiss our views merely as the suppositions of “heretics.”
Yet it is according to the presuppositions of most that truth is determined, presuppositions which make it seem correct that these time words sometimes refer to endlessness (hence the confused claim that they sometimes “mean” everlasting or eternal).
On the other hand, if we can show that olam and aiõn never mean “endless,” we ourselves need to realize that it does not follow from this that it is simply impossible for these words ever to refer to the endless past or future. Yet even so, neither does it follow that even if there is nothing that intrinsically precludes these words themselves from being used to make such a reference, that they are ever, in fact, so used.
Indeed we are far from suggesting that they are ever so used. Any exegesis in favor of such a claim is but the reflection of a failure to recognize that the notion of “eternity past” is not a scriptural theme, and that, with reference to the future, the Scriptures do not use these expressions of any time extending beyond that of the period of John’s vision of the new earth. Such false claims concerning olam and aiõn as well are but the fruit of the foundational error of everlasting punishment, of a failure to see that, in soteriology (the doctrine of salvation), while the Arminians are correct as to the compass of those for whom Christ salvifically died (namely, all mankind), just as surely, the Calvinists are correct as to the gracious nature of the evangel, how it is that the sacrifice of Christ effects salvation for all for whom it was designed.
James Coram
1. John Wesley Hanson, Aiõn-Aiõnios, p.12; Chicago: Northwestern Universalist Publishing House, 1875.
2. ibid., pp.12,13; cit., Christian Examiner, vol.10, p.47; Boston: Gray & Bowen.
3. ibid., pp.20,21,26,27.
4. Unsearchable Riches, vol.2, pp.238,239,243,244.
Forward to Part Two
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Part two is available if requested.
Blessings. Jerry.
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Michael Harrison
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Again, read the book of "Leviticus", this explains all the "laws" for those under the law. I'm sure you couldn't possibly keep them all, so why try to apply scripture from that era, meant for the Jews, to us today?
Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. If we surrender to Him, we will abide in them. For the Jews, the law was to be kept by effort, together with ceremony. Ceremony you know, included things like 'sacrifice'. In our case, Jesus keeps the law, and as we abide in Him, it is fulfilled in us. And if we do sin, (by doubting Jesus) our ceremony is Jesus. HE is the high priest, and the sacrifice both for past, and present. But there is no requirement to break the law. Therefore neither is there reason to accept that it was written for only for the Jews.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Zeena
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What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion"
Universalists place a great deal of weight on the word "aion" which means "age." From the Greek root "aion" we also have the word "aionion" which is translated in most instances in most Bibles as "eternal."
The significance of this is that Universalists maintain that there is no eternal punishment in hell fire. Therefore, they assert that the word "aionion" is in reference to "age duration" and can have temporal duration. With this assertion they try to substantiate their theological position that all people everywhere will ultimately be saved.
But, what do Greek Dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the words and phrases used in Greek that are translated into the English "age", "world", "eternal," "forever", "forever and ever," etc.? Let's find out.
aion - , - age, world
"for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
aionion, aionios - - eternal
"aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
Eis tous aionios ton aionion - - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
"unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.
These few references and quotes should be ample evidence that eternal hell, eternal fire, is real. It is a terrible reality and it is all the more important to preach the gospel. The universalists are wrong and their theology only dilutes the need to come to Christ.
http://www.carm.org/uni/greekdict.htm
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Betty Louise
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But the major reason was given by Jesus Himself: “Ye would not” (Luke 13:34). Their minds had been instructed by the Word (Luke 13:26), and their hearts had been stirred by His mighty works, but their wills were stubborn and would not submit to Him. This is the deadly consequence of delay. The longer sinners wait, the harder their hearts become. “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts” (Heb. 4:7).
Very good ,Carol!!
It breaks my heart that someone may go to hell who knows the truth but rejects the truth.
Jesus said that truth will set you free, but not if you reject the truth.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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Betty Louise ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Jesus pictured the kingdom as a great feast, with the patriarchs and prophets as honored guests (Luke 13:28). But many of the people who were invited waited too long to respond; and, when they arrived at the banquet hall, it was too late and the door was shut (see Matt. 22:1-14; Luke 14:15-24).
But why did they wait so long? The parable suggests several reasons. To begin with, salvation is not easy; the sinner must enter a narrow gate and walk a narrow way (Luke 13:24; also see 9:23). The world’s crowd is on the easy way, the way that leads to destruction (Matt. 7:13-14), and it is much easier to walk with them.
Another reason for their delay was their false sense of security. Jesus had been among them; they had even eaten with Him and enjoyed His fellowship, yet they had never trusted Him. God gave the nation many privileges and opportunities, but they wasted them (see Luke 10:13-16). God is long-suffering; however, there comes a time when even God shuts the door.
Pride also played a big part: they would not humble themselves before God. In their own eyes, they were first, but in God’s eyes, they were last—and the Gentiles would come and take their place! (see Matt. 21:43) Imagine the “unclean Gentile dogs” sitting at the feast with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, while the unbelieving Jews were outside!
These people were lost because they depended on their ancient religion to save them; but Jesus saw them as “workers of iniquity,” not doers of righteousness (Isa. 64:4; Titus 1:16). It takes more than reverence for tradition to get into God’s kingdom!
But the major reason was given by Jesus Himself: “Ye would not” (Luke 13:34). Their minds had been instructed by the Word (Luke 13:26), and their hearts had been stirred by His mighty works, but their wills were stubborn and would not submit to Him. This is the deadly consequence of delay. The longer sinners wait, the harder their hearts become. “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts” (Heb. 4:7).
(Wiersbe)
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Betty Louise
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Luke 13:25-27 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Today is the day of salvation, no one has a promise of tomorrow.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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Romans 10:9 - 13 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
At this point Paul quoted Isaiah 28:16 to show that salvation is by faith: “Whosoever believeth on Him shall not be ashamed.” He quoted this verse before in Romans 9:33. He made it clear in Romans 10:9-10 that salvation is by faith—we believe in the heart, receive God’s righteousness, and then confess Christ openly and without shame.
Paul’s final quotation was from Joel 2:32, to prove that this salvation is open to everyone: “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Paul had already proved that “there is no difference” in condemnation (Rom. 3:20-23); now he affirms that “there is no difference” in salvation.
(Wiersbe)
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Betty Louise
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Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
again I say This is written to both Jew and Gentiles.
" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
betty
The Man of God and the Word of God
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra--what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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chosenone
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Jerry,
Many of us have spoken to you in love explaining that Universal Salvation is a lie from the pits of hell, and yet you are unwilling to listen.
The Bible makes it clear that in the last days people will reject the truth, preferring a false Gospel.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
The Apostles would not have died for spreading the Gospel if all were saved automatically.
I see that no one can convince you of the truth and I am reminded of the verse.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I am not trying to be mean but explain that it is no good to try to speak the truth to you. You do not want to know the truth. Sadly your stubbornness could land you in hell.
betty
Hi Betty.
Thanks for your concern about me, I know you respond in love.
But as I have written many times, the scripture you quote in Matt.7:6 is for the Jews.
Here is an explanation of the meaning of this verse:
Matt.7:6 ...Both dogs and hogs were unclean according to the law. The Lord Himself followed this principle when He spoke in parables to those without, and kept the holy and precious truth for His own disciples. We are hardly justified in “applying” these opprobrious terms to immature saints who are not yet able to bear more than milk.
Notice that 'under the law' dogs and hogs were unclean. Is this applicable to us today? I think not.
I know you don't wish me any harm, but you must apply scripture in context with with all scripture, this means "correctly cutting the word of truth" (2Tim.2:15).
It will benefit you much to understand the difference of those who were "under the law" in that era, and the present "covenant of Grace".
Applying scripture from anywhere in the bible to this present era, is not always applicable.
Again, read the book of "Leviticus", this explains all the "laws" for those under the law. I'm sure you couldn't possibly keep them all, so why try to apply scripture from that era, meant for the Jews, to us today?
Thanks Betty.
God Bless, Jerry.
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Michael Harrison
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Whew! Can I get a head scratching emoticon? Yes Jerry, the Spirit of God accomplished this, but not in spite of you. God is a gentleman, and HE requires your cooperation. He doesn't just 'save' you.
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Betty Louise
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Jerry,
Many of us have spoken to you in love explaining that Universal Salvation is a lie from the pits of hell, and yet you are unwilling to listen.
The Bible makes it clear that in the last days people will reject the truth, preferring a false Gospel.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
The Apostles would not have died for spreading the Gospel if all were saved automatically.
I see that no one can convince you of the truth and I am reminded of the verse.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I am not trying to be mean but explain that it is no good to try to speak the truth to you. You do not want to know the truth. Sadly your stubbornness could land you in hell.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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chosenone
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Hi all.
Wow! So many disagreements. But by now I'm used to this, you obviously don't believe the scripture "All is of God" (scripture in 1 & 2 Cor. and Romans), and "God is operating "ALL" in accord with the councel of HIS WILL. (Eph.1:11)
So I guess there is not much use using scripture, you don't believe it anyway. You all seem to believe that Jesus' teaching was for all, not just as He Himself said in Matt.15:24. (yes, He ministered to the Samaritan woman, He is compassionate, and Loving, but His words are truth. Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
See also Ro.15:8 "For I (Paul) am saying that Christ has become the Servant of the Circumcision, for the sake of the truth of God, to confirm the patriarchal promises".
Also Ro.15:16 "...for me (Paul) to be the minister of Christ Jesus for the nations,
Now Betty says " When I first realized, fully, what God had done for me through Jesus, I couldn't stop crying. Crying with joy at the thought of forgiveness and eternal life"... Was this of yourself, or did you come to this realisation of what God had done for you? You also say "while I still cry sometimes when I look at my failures and smile at His successes". Very good, you give God the credit.
Michael, you say, "1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. Yes, but it is God that, through His holy spirit, accomplishes this.
And you say this:
Condemnation is to those who are in the flesh. For to follow, or obey the flesh it is so.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
One is not saved because they 'agree' with what Jesus did. One must surrender to what HE did. That means that one must through faith, die, and also through the same faith, rise with Him from the dead. With Him! That is like a companionship thing. That should read, 'together' with Him. One does not rise alone, for one must rise 'by' Him.
For to be under the Cross means to surrender one's will to Him.
I can't disagree with these verses, but notice, it is the work of God that accomplishes this. Not the "flesh", but the "spirit", which only God gives when He is living in you to accomplish "His will".
Betty, you say: Salvation is not believing that God is real. "Salvation is accepting Jesus as your Savior and Lord". But scripture says..."For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. Notice the words "AND THIS IS NOT OUT OF YOU"?
Hope this is sufficient, it is difficult to try and answer so many posts. I may not have
answered every detail, so let me know your answers.
God Bless, Jerry.
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Betty Louise
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Good Post Michael ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder."
-- James 2:18-20 [NRSV]
Salvation is not believing that God is real. Salvation is accepting Jesus as your Savior and Lord
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
I guess I'll have to say no, I never did confess my "sins". But thanks be to God, that He sent His Son "Jesus" to justify all mankind, incuding me, through His death and resurrection.
I thought it would be blasphemous to ask God forgiveness for something His Son has already done in my place, to wash away my sin. What an insult to God, to ignore what He sent His Son to do for me, which is why He 'sees my sin no more'. I quote Eph.1:7 ...in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
You see Betty, "Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God". (Ro.8:8) Sad to say, I'm still in the flesh, I can't please God.
Whew!!!
Someone give me an emoticon who is scratching its head.
- 1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Well, it appears that we are supposed to 'confess' our sins in order to find forgivness. It doesn't happen without it. However, FWIW, that means to acknowledge, or admit, in one's heart. For with the heart one believes, and with the mouth confesses. Of course it would not hurt to use the mouth also if one wants to be sure that they covered the bases.
- 1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
If God dwells in one, he is no longer in the flesh. But it is dependent upon one's faith to be effectual. For one is in the flesh through unbelief. It is the unbelief that curses one to this reality. Unbelief separates one from God making him to be in the flesh. We know that God is Spirit.
Jesus doesn't justify all of mankind. HE justifies those who believe on Him. It is a choice one makes.
- 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
So where does the unbeliever fall (literally)?
If you have sin, HE sees it. He isn't blind.
- Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
quote:
Sad to say, I'm still in the flesh, I can't please God.
One is in the flesh by 'unbelief'. For one is in the Spirit through faith.
- Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
- Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Condemnation is to those who are in the flesh. For to follow, or obey the flesh it is so.
- Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
- Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
- 1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
- 1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
One is not saved because they 'agree' with what Jesus did. One must surrender to what HE did. That means that one must through faith, die, and also through the same faith, rise with Him from the dead. With Him! That is like a companionship thing. That should read, 'together' with Him. One does not rise alone, for one must rise 'by' Him.
For to be under the Cross means to surrender one's will to Him.
quote:
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Betty Louise
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http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq12.html
How do I know I'm saved?
Because God said so. IF you have confessed with your mouth (made a public statement) the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe (know and are willing to ACT on it) that God raised Jesus from the dead, then you are saved. "Yeah, but what if I don't feel like I'm saved?" What are you supposed to feel like? The Word of God doesn't say we're supposed to get heartburn, turn cartwheels, turn blue, or anything like that. We're just supposed to believe. Jesus said "blessed are you (talking to thedisciples) who have seen, but MORE BLESSED are those who have not seen, AND YET BELIEVE." "Yeah, okay, but what if I don't act like I'm saved"? Well, then you might have a serious problem, and you need to take a long hard look at whether or not you REALLY believe. While we are saved by grace (an undeserved gift), and through faith (life-changing belief) and NOT of works, there is still one thing that is true, true, true....if you really believe, then you will be willing to do whatever the Lord asks of you. That means you will work for His glory, for His kingdom, and for the salvation of everyone you can find.
While salvation is a life-changing experience, it is not tied to an emotional experience, although it can be quite emotional. When I first realized, fully, what God had done for me through Jesus, I couldn't stop crying. Crying with joy at the thought of forgiveness and eternal life...sobbing with pain over the time that I had wasted in ignoring Him, grinning from ear to ear over the weight that I no longer carried on my back. But now, many years down the road, while I still cry sometimes when I look at my failures and smile at His successes, I have peace, knowing that because He said I was saved, I am saved....and for no other reason. Besides, that, He can't lie!
"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15)
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Carol Swenson
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2 Peter 3:2 - 18 (NLT)
2 I want you to remember what the holy prophets said long ago and what our Lord and Savior commanded through your apostles. 3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires. 4 They will say, “What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created.” 5 They deliberately forget that God made the heavens by the word of his command, and he brought the earth out from the water and surrounded it with water. 6 Then he used the water to destroy the ancient world with a mighty flood. 7 And by the same word, the present heavens and earth have been stored up for fire. They are being kept for the day of judgment, when ungodly people will be destroyed. 8 But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day. 9 The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent . 10 But the day of the Lord will come as unexpectedly as a thief. Then the heavens will pass away with a terrible noise, and the very elements themselves will disappear in fire, and the earth and everything on it will be found to deserve judgment. 11 Since everything around us is going to be destroyed like this, what holy and godly lives you should live, 12 looking forward to the day of God and hurrying it along. On that day, he will set the heavens on fire, and the elements will melt away in the flames. 13 But we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth he has promised, a world filled with God’s righteousness. 14 And so, dear friends, while you are waiting for these things to happen, make every effort to be found living peaceful lives that are pure and blameless in his sight. 15 And remember, the Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved . This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him— 16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction. 17 I am warning you ahead of time, dear friends. Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing. 18 Rather, you must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. All glory to him, both now and forever! Amen.
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chosenone
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
If you have not done this, then you are not saved and will not spend eternity in Heaven. The sin is not asking for forgiveness but rejecting the gift of salvation. I pray you will do so before it is too late.
betty
Hi Betty.
You quote Ro.10:9, of course I believe that Christ Jesus is my saviour, and I do say so many times. But is was God that gave me this understanding, not anything I have done gave me this understanding, it was by the "grace of God".
You stated that I had to 'ask forgiveness' as my part of recieving salvation. I gave you scripture that says, "the flesh cannot please God", and others saying all salvation is of God.
Any understanding and all salvation is 'of God'.
We cannot do anything as you suggest, to effect our salvation. God states in many scriptures what we must do and how we are to behave, this is true. But it is only through God who is working in us, can we achieve this.
Eph1.11. ... of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
Who can not believe Gods word?
Blessings, Jerry.
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Betty Louise
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Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
If you have not done this, then you are not saved and will not spend eternity in Heaven. The sin is not asking for forgiveness but rejecting the gift of salvation. I pray you will do so before it is too late.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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chosenone
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Hi Betty.
Thanks for your request. "You never answered the question. Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Are you a child of God. Remember not everyone is a child of God. Only those who have confessed their sins and accepted Jesus as their Lord and King are saved."
I guess I'll have to say no, I never did confess my "sins". But thanks be to God, that He sent His Son "Jesus" to justify all mankind, incuding me, through His death and resurrection.
I thought it would be blasphemous to ask God forgiveness for something His Son has already done in my place, to wash away my sin. What an insult to God, to ignore what He sent His Son to do for me, which is why He 'sees my sin no more'. I quote Eph.1:7 ...in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
You see Betty, "Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God". (Ro.8:8) Sad to say, I'm still in the flesh, I can't please God.
Continuing in Eph.1:8-9 "which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight,"
Continuing. ..."that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,"
More. Eph.2:8-9 "For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting."
I guess I just can't 'boast'.
Eph.3:19 ... that you may be completed for the entire complement of God. (by who?)
Eph.3:20 ...Now to Him Who is able to do superexcessively above all that we are requesting or apprehending, according to the power that is operating in us,
There are many others that show that it is God who is operating in us, we have no part in our salvation.
Finally, Eph.2:8 ...AND THIS IS NOT OUT OF YOU...
God Bless, Jerry.
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Betty Louise
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Very Good Michael.
Paul did indeed speak to the Jew and the Gentiles.
13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
This is why when he says here:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
he is speaking to both the Jew and the Gentiles.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
quote:
Jesus' teaching was to Israel, see Matt.15:2 "Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
The statement "you must be born again" is to the nation of Israel. This word "you" is plural in the original greek. Have a look in Heb.9:8-13, when He (God) will make a "New Covenant" with them. This will be their 'new birth', which will be "spitual".
I believe that if you read the Bible, instead of just verses, that you will find that Jesus was sent unto Israel to be rejected of them, that HE could then extend salvation to the Gentiles. In fact, even in the case of Matthew 15:24 He still ministered to the woman, because of her faith! Faith was key. But with regard to being born again, He meant that anyone, Jew or Gentile, will not see the Kingdom of God otherwise, though it was not offered to the Gentiles 'on that day'. They were still included in His plan. But it could not be effected until He had suffered rejection.
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
He offered Himself for Israel. It just so happens that the Gentiles were welcome too! See the book of Acts. And one is born again by believing on Him, in surrender to His will.
How does one serve God but by His Spirit. Else he offers the ineffective sacrifice of Cain, desiring to be recognized.
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when He (God) will make a "New Covenant" with them. This will be their 'new birth', which will be "spitual".
At the risk of being redundant, Jesus is the New Covenant with them, and not only, but with the Gentiles.
- Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
So the New Testament applies both to Jew and Gentile.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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chosenone
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
The New Birth
3There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
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There is no misunderstanding. Jesus said you MUST BE BORN AGAIN to enter the Kingdom of God.
Jesus' teaching was to Israel, see Matt.15:2 "Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
The statement "you must be born again" is to the nation of Israel. This word "you" is plural in the original greek. Have a look in Heb.9:8-13, when He (God) will make a "New Covenant" with them. This will be their 'new birth', which will be "spitual".
Blessings, Jerry.
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Michael Harrison
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Dean Whow?
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But to view the condemnation of sinners as beyond the power and province of the Saviour is most shameful and exceedingly harmful to our lives and growth in faith.
Everlasting hell cannot be so if Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners!
Jesus doesn't condemn them. They condemn themselves.
- Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Hell is separation from Jesus.
- Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
If one did not accept Jesus, in full surrender to His will, in this life, he dies without Jesus. He will be separated from Jesus eternally, and will be consumed with the insatible lusts which he burned in while on earth, for only Jesus can quinch the burning desires. Only Jesus meets the needs of the individual. Therefore, if one does not recognize this by faith, his hell is not only to burn in his own lusts, but to be in the company of all of those others who also do. It sound like nowhere to be. We should pray for sinners to come around.
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Zeena
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Praise God!
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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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Betty Louise
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The New Birth
3There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
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There is no misunderstanding. Jesus said you MUST BE BORN AGAIN to enter the Kingdom of God.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Betty Louise
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Dean Hough is a false prophet teaching a Gospel that is contrary to the Bible. He will answer to God for his teaching. If everyone would be saved, God would not have sent His Disciples out to be martyred for the Gospel. They died spreading the Gospel because they knew without Jesus as their Lord and Savior, people will go to hell. You have bought into a lie.
You never answered the question. Have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Are you a child of God. Remember not everyone is a child of God. Only those who have confessed their sins and accepted Jesus as their Lord and King are saved.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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chosenone
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COMMANDS, WARNINGS AND JUDGMENTS
The promise was salvation from sins, but starting with John in the wilderness the message recorded in page after page of Matthew is one of commands for repentance and warnings of indignation and judgment to come. It is perhaps understandable, therefore, that the glorious promise of 1:21 has become overshadowed in people’s minds by such stern and fearful words as the following:
“Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation? Produce, then, fruit worthy of repentance” (Matt.3:7,8).
“Yet already the ax is lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which is not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire” (Matt.3:10).
“He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire” (Matt.3:12).
“. . . whoever may be saying [to his brother], ‘Stupid!’ shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire” (Matt.5:22).
“Now, if your right eye is snaring you, wrench it out and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that one of your members should perish and not your whole body be cast into Gehenna. And if your right hand is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that one of your members should perish and not your whole body pass away into Gehenna” (Matt.5:29,30).
“Enter through the cramped gate, for broad is the gate and spacious is the way which is leading away into destruction, and many are those entering through it. Yet what a cramped gate and narrowed way is the one leading away into life, and few are those who are finding it” (Matt.7:13,14).
“. . . many from the east and the west shall be arriving and reclining with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens, yet the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth” (Matt.8:11,12).
“And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna” (Matt.10:28).
“And you, Capernaum! Not to heaven shall you be exalted! To the unseen shall you subside, for, if the powerful deeds which are occurring in you had occurred in Sodom, it might remain unto today” (Matt.11:23; cf verses 20-24; 12:41,42).
“Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned . . . neither in this eon nor in that which is impending” (Matt.12:31,32; cf verses 36,37).
“Even as the darnel, then, are being culled and burned up with fire, thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The Son of Mankind shall be dispatching His messengers, and they shall be culling out of His kingdom all the snares and those doing lawlessness, and they shall be casting them into a furnace of fire. There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth” (Matt.13:40-42; cf verses 49-51).
“Now if the blind should be guiding the blind, both shall be falling into a pit” (Matt.15:14).
“For whosoever may be wanting to save his soul shall be destroying it. Yet whoever should be destroying his soul on My account shall be finding it” (Matt.16:25).
“Now if your hand or your foot is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life maimed or lame, or, having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the fire eonian? And if your eye is snaring you, wrench it out and cast it from you. Is it ideal for you to be entering into life one-eyed, or, having two eyes, to be cast into the Gehenna of fire?” (Matt.18:8,9).
“There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. For many are the called, yet few are the chosen” (Matt.22:14; cp 24:51; 25:30).
“Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of Gehenna?” (Matt.23:33).
“Jerusalem! Jerusalem! who art killing the prophets and pelting with stones those who have been dispatched to her! . . . Lo! left is your house to you desolate” (Matt.23:37,38).
“Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, ‘Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers’ ” (Matt.25:41).
“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian” (Matt.25:46).
THE TEACHING OF EVERLASTING HELL
Inestimable harm has been done by taking passages like those above and stringing them together in such a way that Matthew 1:21 is submerged in our thinking. And this harm has been greatly increased by Bible translations which render the word “Gehenna” by “hell,” and the word “eonian” by “everlasting.” Few concepts have so effectively distorted the evangel of salvation, centered in Jesus Christ, as the teaching of everlasting hell.
The book of Matthew provides an especially good testing ground for this whole controversy concerning the ultimate fate of mankind. It is filled with statements and phrases, most of which are the Lord’s own words, which have been used to adjust radically the meaning of the promise of salvation from sins given at the beginning of the book and long before in the Old Testament. What the Lord speaks is so. But because He speaks of human sinfulness and failure and the certainty of judgment does not move His great Name, Saviour, into second place behind Judge or Condemner. It is necessary that He speak of indignation and judgment upon the wickedness of Israel and the nations and all mankind, but salvation from these very things must have the last word, because Jesus is the Saviour.
Is it possible that One Who came to save sinners should end up saving but a few and becoming the great Stumbling Stone for the rest to their eternal condemnation? All His roles, as Judge, as Condemner, even as Stumbling Stone (cf Rom.9:32,33), can only serve to the end of His manifestation as the Saviour.
It is proposed here to examine the many passages in Matthew which are used so often in support of an unending hell, whether of conscious torment or hopeless annihilation, considering them carefully in their context and in the context of the whole of Scripture. It is especially pleaded that the opening promise of this book, the words of Matthew 1:21, never be forgotten. Let these words from a messenger of the Lord help shape our understanding of the many severe and fearful warnings and predictions of the book.
This is necessary, for not only future times of indignation and condemnation but also present evils pressing on us from every side, easily distract our thoughts from the good news of salvation in Christ. The very real dangers spoken of by the Lord and the very actual troubles in our own lives must not turn our eyes from the One Who saves from them. The dangers and troubles and failures, the sins and their judgment as well, all these must be, for otherwise there is no reason for Him to be the Saviour. The fact of human sin and divine judgment on wicked thoughts and words and acts should make the good news of salvation continually more welcome and glorious to us. But to view the condemnation of sinners as beyond the power and province of the Saviour is most shameful and exceedingly harmful to our lives and growth in faith.
Everlasting hell cannot be so if Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners!
Dean Hough
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Michael Harrison
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Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I'm not buying that these two reference the same group of people.
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