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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » Once Saved Always Saved ? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Once Saved Always Saved ?
Adam2008
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good question. i think salvation is something so strong that it should last forever. but i do know some people who claim to be saved, but then go back and forth between beliving and non beliving. well i think they were not saved in the first place. i think when your truly saved, you dont turn back.

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In Christ We Trust

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WildB
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(From a young mans blog.)


I’ve been hearing a lot of this “backsliding” word these days, or maybe it’s the people around me. If you are among non-believers, the word seems a little aloof but if you are among Christians, that word welcomes either a grave head-nodding response or heads shaking in disappointment. I don’t know which is better. Should there be a better way to respond to that word?

Many people have this notion that when you’ve backslidden, you have fallen from grace. The other day as I was watching MTV (what was I thinking?), I saw Avril Lavigne’s video for Nobody’s Home and she sang about a girl who is alone and is “losing her faith, falling from grace.” I found it rather ironic. Christians who wave their ticket to heaven up in the air have a tendency to look up and not look at where they’ve been standing on. But they are not to be condemned. It reminds me of Peter; before he was a rock he was sifting sand. And it was the rock who denied the Lord three times. It was also the same rock who jumped into the sea to be with the Lord. But it was by grace that he was called again.

The grace received is not the same grace kept and dispensed. Backsliding is never falling from grace... we fall from grace only when we think that we got this far because we have been “good” Christians and have been doing church. It is when we return to doing and earning God’s approval that we have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). In fact, grace is found where it is most undeserved... it’s so obvious but we tend to forget that. Grace fails to be grace when we are able to earn it. Perhaps we have also “played God” every time we pity our poor brother or sister who is dealing with depression or addiction. We feel sorry for their souls not because we love them but because they’re going to hell. We call down judgment and lightning when we see a pastor leaving his office for good. We plaster a smile on our faces despite the war raging on our insides. We fear that one day we might be “found out” because we don’t want to be like those who “backslide.”

True backsliding is not found in money, sex, drugs, booze and the other stereotypes but in what they represent; power, manipulation, fear, idolatry and the need for approval. And all these find their way into the pews and sometimes behind the pulpit rather easily. One does not need to leave church to embrace the world when the world is in the church. It’s better to “backslide” than to fall from grace. Grace for one who sins like a broken record never runs dry but grace is far from one who doesn’t think he needs to be forgiven.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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Well WildB if any baseball fans are really interested backsliding is falling from Grace ....

Grace is more than just a word, it is the condition of the heart after regeneration ....

Grace is the influence of Yahweh upon man's heart...

Grace is Yahweh's divine power and ability....

Grace is offered to all...Yahshua died for all not a selected few....

Grace can be resisted....

you talk of rightly dividing the Word of Yahweh but you never use but verses of scripture that make your point....Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. and Ephesians 1:13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

and while this are 2 great verses they can not stand alone to prove "Once Saved Always Saved"

when you rightly divide you take all scripture and make it harmonize....

I know all the scripture that make us sure of Yahshua's love for us and how secure the believer is when living with our hearts in tune with the Spirit and walking according to the precept that the Savior said His disciples would display to this world...

but I also know all the scriptures that warn the believer how to live in this present life and what the results would be if the believer returns to the old ways as a dog returns to his vomit.

rightly dividing is taking all scripture together and making it not contradict itself, not just the portions that fit what we want to be true.

WildB you posted....
quote:
Matthew 12:31

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.



but to rightly divide the scripture and find the Truth we must couple Matthew 12:31 with 1st John 1:9....

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

the True believer come daily before Yahweh understanding how imperfect he /she is without Christ, calling to Yahweh for new mercies every morning....the True believer understands the Blood is on the Mercy Seat and forgiveness is only a breath or prayer away....

there is no one time deal with Yahweh....

Yahshua the Savior said daily die to self... daily take up your cross....

remember the verse.... All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...

WildB does Yahweh take away our freedom of choice when we receive the free gift of salvation?

WildB does the believer not have the power to resist the working of the Holy Spirit?

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
WildB and Carol you presume to know more than Yahweh...

what you are saying is every backslider will be saved even if they never repent from known sin they are living in....

I am sad to see such presumption ...

I pray you do not lead some little one to go astray by your false teaching....

for the word says ...in Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Mar 9:43-50
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Here the scriptures are talking about the body and to what extremes should be taken not to go to the Lake of Fire.....

remember 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yahshua can and will do all to preserve His Body, if you are a member of His Body and are a Cancer or some other deadly disease threatening infecting the rest of the Body Yahshua will remove you....

More legalestic rambelings that are not even rightly divided.

Please tell the baseball fans what Backsliding has to do with my post about Falling from Grace?

Matthew 12:31

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

The Holy Spirit does indeed SEAL the believer until the day of redemption.

Acts 7:51

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

What Wildb Knows is what he reads and that is.....

Ephesians 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


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That is all.....

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The Beauty of Holiness777
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Jesus said I will never leave you nor will I forsake you. Yes, Jesus is faithful to His word.
But it is man that is not faithful to his.

God will never leave us but some have fallen from the faith and return back into their old ways of sin. They have left God.

That is why in the book of Revelation God is given them a chance to repent and come back.

Revelation 2:4-5
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thy hast left thy first love.

Remember therefore from whence THOU ARE FALLEN, AND REPENT, AND DO THE FIRST WORKS; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, EXCEPT THOU REPENT.

The theory "Once saved always saved" is true only if one stays saved.

There is no way one can say they are still saved and go back into sin and sin continously and think they will go to heaven. That can only happen if they come back to their senses and repent of their backsliding and return back to God.

Other than that they will go to the lake of fire just like the others who have rejected Christ for God has no respected of persons. And HE don't play "Let's make a Deal" for "It's God's ways or Hell's Ways.

For God has no pleasure in those on puts their hands to the plow and look back. For they are not fit for service in the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:62)

No debate here just facts.
AND TO GOD BE THE GLORY!! [clap2]

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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}

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Michael Harrison
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The whole point is, not to take for granted our salvation. That is the main thing. I mean, if someone you love, who loves you, gave you something, would you distain it? You certainly would not tell them it was pathetic, or unneeded. You would be diligent to appreciate them, rather than take a chance on offending them.

Salvation is not like that however. Yet, we can distain it by our actions, if we are not careful. That is all!

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
WildB and Carol you presume to know more than Yahweh...

what you are saying is every backslider will be saved even if they never repent from known sin they are living in....

Romans 3:8 (NLT)
And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, “The more we sin, the better it is!” Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.

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becauseHElives
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WildB and Carol you presume to know more than Yahweh...

what you are saying is every backslider will be saved even if they never repent from known sin they are living in....

I am sad to see such presumption ...

I pray you do not lead some little one to go astray by your false teaching....

for the word says ...in Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Mar 9:43-50
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.Salt [is] good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Here the scriptures are talking about the body and to what extremes should be taken not to go to the Lake of Fire.....

remember 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yahshua can and will do all to preserve His Body, if you are a member of His Body and are a Cancer or some other deadly disease threatening infecting the rest of the Body Yahshua will remove you....

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Carol Swenson
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2 Peter 2:12-22

Peter compared false teachers to “unreasoning animals” (NASB) whose only destiny is to be slaughtered! At the end of this chapter, they are pictured as pigs and dogs! Animals have life, but they live purely by instinct. They lack the finer sensibilities that humans possess. Jesus warned us not to waste precious things on unappreciative brute beasts (Matt. 7:6).

Apostates make a lot of noise about things they know nothing about! The Phillips translation of 2 Peter 2:12 says they “scoff at things outside their own experience.” The New International Version reads, “But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand.”

“Empty barrels make the most noise!”

It is sad when the media concentrates on the “big mouths” of the false teachers instead of the “still small voice” of the Lord as He ministers through those who are true to Him. It is sadder still when innocent people become fascinated by these “great swelling words of vanity” (2 Peter 2:18) and cannot discern between truth and propaganda. The truth of the Word of God leads to salvation, but the arrogant words of the apostates lead only to condemnation.

These “brute beasts” are destined for destruction, a truth Peter mentioned often in 2 Peter 2 (vv. 3-4, 9, 12, 17, 20). As they seek to destroy the faith, they themselves shall be destroyed. They will be “corrupted in their own corruption.” Their very nature will drag them down into destruction, like the pig returning to the mire and the dog to its vomit (2 Peter 2:22). Unfortunately, before that event takes place, these people can do a great deal of moral and spiritual damage.

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WildB
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ETERNAL SECURITY

Question: I do believe in the eternal security of the believer, but I have trouble understanding Galatians 5:4 where Paul says, "ye are fallen from grace." Does this verse argue against eternal security?

Answer: No. The verse does not say, "ye are fallen from salvation," or "ye are fallen from Christ." Later on in the letter Paul calls his readers "brethren" (Gal. 6:1) and he uses the word in the normal sense, meaning that they are "brothers and sisters in Christ." The Galatians were confused about sanctification. False teachers led them astray regarding how we are to live the Christian life. Is it a life to be lived under religious practices and the legalistic teachings of the Judaizers?

The apostle brings the issue into focus when are asks: "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:3). That was their problem. They were relying on the flesh and on works. Hence, Paul says, "ye are fallen from grace," meaning that they have fallen from grace as the way of their sanctification and had gone back to keeping the law (Gal. 3:5-7).

Is it possible to lose one's salvation? It certainly is. If we are honest, we've probably lost it more times than we can remember. Eternal security, however, does not depend on our holding on, but upon God who never lets us go.

People often have trouble accepting the doctrine of the security of the believer because they do not know what it means. It is often misrepresented and caricatured.

For one thing, eternal security does not mean that it does not matter if a Christian sins. Sin is a serious matter, even for a Christian. When a child disobeys an earthly father he is disciplined. However, the child's disobedience is not grounds for the father to disown the child and to run him out of the house! God chastens his children and has various ways of giving us a good "spanking" (Heb. 12:6, 8), but he doesn't disown us (Luke 15:11-32).

In John 10:27-29 Jesus said: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Secondly, eternal security does not mean that all those who have made a profession of faith and are "church members" will get to heaven. The Bible tells the sad story of Simon who was baptized and who believed, but Peter said to him: "For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity" (Acts 8:13, 19-23).

Thirdly, eternal security does not mean that Christians do not need confession, repentance, renewal and revival. The example of the church at Ephesus makes that very clear (Rev. 2:1, 4-5).

Fourthly, eternal security does not mean that Christians cannot disqualify themselves for positions of leadership and service. Christians are secure in their salvation, but pastors, elders, deacons, Sunday school teachers and choir members are not necessarily secure in their positions of ministry (1 Cor. 9:24-27).

"Having therefore these promises," we read in 2 Corinthians 7:1, "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." It does not say, "Since we are not sure if we have these promises let us perfect holiness in the fear of God." Being a recipient of God's promises does not make one spiritually careless.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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the Truth is one scripture does not cancel another scripture...

2 Peter 2

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.

For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.

There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.

at the very least 100 thousand people refused to heed the warnings given in just this last storm Ike and the storm caught then unaware, the same is true of scripture ... there are many warning but most will not heed the warnings...

WildB you keep quoting that one scripture about be sealed but if you or anyone else backslide without repenting and dies you will find out I am right...

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Betty Louise
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God is not a forgetful old man who misplaces His children. Jesus blood secures His children until the end. Sometimes, people decide to be saved with out being saved. They walk the walk for awhile but out of the heart comes the truth and if there has not been a heart change, soon they fall by the wayside. Deciding to be a better person does not save anyone. Only true salvation through Jesus saves.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
2 Peter 2

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.

For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.

There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.


the scriptures need no explanation, they just need honest hearts that love the Truth more than the doctrines and traditions of men....

the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" is from the pit of hell and will snare many to go there!

Sorry "Once Sealed Always Sealed" is from the Grace of God.

Eph.4

[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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2 Peter 2

For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through [the full, personal] knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they again become entangled in them and are overcome, their last condition is worse [for them] than the first.

For never to have obtained a [full, personal] knowledge of the way of righteousness would have been better for them than, having obtained [such knowledge], to turn back from the holy commandment which was [verbally] delivered to them.

There has befallen them the thing spoken of in the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and, The sow is washed only to wallow again in the mire.


the scriptures need no explanation, they just need honest hearts that love the Truth more than the doctrines and traditions of men....

the doctrine of "Once Saved Always Saved" is from the pit of hell and will snare many to go there!

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

*That will be when the Christ comes.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

So:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;

*Those days! Those days, are 'these' days, since the resurrection of Christ. And here is the promise for these days!

Heb8:10 I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

*Therefore, if one is 'looking' to the future for this, that one is lost! That one is still looking, and it will be too late to look later. But for now:

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

*This really means that it 'has' vanished away. It has been replaced! What he is saying to the Hebrews is to, "Get ahold of it."

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

So, 9:8 ~ 9:10 pertain to the Old Covenant. But:

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

*Therefore these 11,12, refer back to Heb 8:8. For Christ 'having' come, who is a perfect tabernacle, not made with hands... Together with this verse:

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

*means that the death of Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the New Covenant, that all we who are born of the Spirit, to the Jew first, and then to the Gentile, may benefit the benefit of the New Covenant.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

*You see! He calls 'this' the end of the world. We are in the New Covenant, and:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

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Carol Swenson
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Hebrews

The letter was designed to correct the readers’ desires to substitute old religious ways for the greatness of the new revelation of God in Christ. Although the geographical setting and date of the letter are uncertain, the spiritual condition of its readers is clear. The believers had demonstrated Christian love (6:10) and had endured persecution (10:32-34). In spite of these favorable traits, there were some areas of weakness.

The letter encourages the readers to make spiritual progress (5:11-12). Their failure to grow in the Lord was reflected in their Christian conduct (10:25; 13:2-17). The Hebrew Christians were looking back to their Jewish ways instead of ahead to Christ, the author and perfecter of faith (12:2). Facing the hardships of the Christian faith, they were in danger of drifting away (2:1) from the substance, Christ, to the shadow of the Old Testament sacrificial system (8:5; 10:1). It was to deal with such spiritual stagnation that the author wrote his letter to the Hebrew Christians.

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chosenone
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You say...All Jews? The book of Hebrews was written to Christians...

Though the title, "Hebrews" is not inspired, the opening strain shows that this epistle is addressed to Israelites "whose are the fathers" (Ro. 9:5), and who alone had the oracles of God.


You say ...The New Covenant is now. It is not in the future. If you are waiting on it still, or attribute it to the Jews, you wait in vain. We have already figured that out.

I don't know how you figured this out, but if Hebrews 8:8 ...8 For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant,
9 Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt,

My bible says ..."with the house of Israel..." if this is your interpetation for "Christians", then I must be reading another book.
And you say the New Covenant is now, then Heb.8:11...And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great,
Somehow, this doesn't fit your theory that 'this is now' does it?

Blessings, Jerry.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Again you say "Who do you mean all" If you understand that the quote was from the book of "Hebrews", and the "all", means all Jews, to whom this book was written.
All Jews? The book of Hebrews was written to Christians. It addressed the Jews particularly, but as Christians. It addresses issues that are closer to them, and expounds on the meaning from a Jewish perspective because of the richness of the Jewish faith; but it is directly written to all believers.

You don't belong Jerry. This stuff is utter nonsense. You have a private interpretation. And we know that no scripture is of private interpretaton.

quote:
WE ,gentiles, were never under the "Old Covenant", that was with Israel. We are now under "Grace". The "New Covenant", which is still future, will be made with the "house of Israel and with the house of Judah", Heb.8:8-12 For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant,
The New Covenant is now. It is not in the future. If you are waiting on it still, or attribute it to the Jews, you wait in vain. We have already figured that out.
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
Christ died for all mankind, He has "justified" us all, paid our penalty for sin. We are now "under Grace", both Jew and Gentile, there is no difference in this era. What I amd saying is, we are not to dismiss Christs sacrifice, or His Name, just because His message was to the Jews. But because His sacifice was for ALL. We are deeply indebted to Him as the Saviour of all.

Not all benefit! There is participation which is 'going under the Cross'. If there is no replacement, which is what is involved by going under the Cross, then we are still under sin, and condemned. Our life 'is' condemned unless we find where to hide in Him. What is automatic, is only so if we have participated through faith, by belief, receiving HIS life, to displace ours.

quote:
Many believe we are now under the "New Covenant", have a look at verse 11, ..."for all shall be aguainted with Me" (God). Think about it, are "ALL" aquianted with God Now? I don't think so!

Who do you mean all? If one claims the benefit of His Justification, they had better 'know' Him. Else they serve only a concept, which they 'think' will materalize.

You say "Not all benefit! There is participation..."
2Cor.5:18-19 18. Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.
Notice :"conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offences to them". Scripture doesn't agree with your statement!

Again you say "Who do you mean all" If you understand that the quote was from the book of "Hebrews", and the "all", means all Jews, to whom this book was written. And this will take place when God makes the "New Covenant" with them in the fututre, this is when "all" (Jews) will "know Him".
We must "correctly cut the word of truth" (2Tim.2:15)

Blessings, Jerry.

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quote:
Christ died for all mankind, He has "justified" us all, paid our penalty for sin. We are now "under Grace", both Jew and Gentile, there is no difference in this era. What I amd saying is, we are not to dismiss Christs sacrifice, or His Name, just because His message was to the Jews. But because His sacifice was for ALL. We are deeply indebted to Him as the Saviour of all.

Not all benefit! There is participation which is 'going under the Cross'. If there is no replacement, which is what is involved by going under the Cross, then we are still under sin, and condemned. Our life 'is' condemned unless we find where to hide in Him. What is automatic, is only so if we have participated through faith, by belief, receiving HIS life, to displace ours.

quote:
Many believe we are now under the "New Covenant", have a look at verse 11, ..."for all shall be aguainted with Me" (God). Think about it, are "ALL" aquianted with God Now? I don't think so!

Who do you mean all? If one claims the benefit of His Justification, they had better 'know' Him. Else they serve only a concept, which they 'think' will materalize.
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Jesus came for one reason, that was to impliment the New Covenant. Therefore His words were for those to whom the New Covenant would apply, at the same time they were 'against' those who would reject Him.

Hi Michael.

WE ,gentiles, were never under the "Old Covenant", that was with Israel. We are now under "Grace". The "New Covenant", which is still future, will be made with the "house of Israel and with the house of Judah", Heb.8:8-12 For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant,
9 Not in accord with the covenant which I make with their fathers In the day of My taking hold of their hand To be leading them out of the land of Egypt, Seeing that they do not remain in My covenant, And I neglect them," the Lord is saying,
10 "For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.
11 And by no means should each be teaching his fellow citizen, And each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord!' For all shall be acquainted with Me, From their little to their great,
12 For I shall be propitious to their injustices, And of their sins and their lawlessnesses should I under no circumstances still be reminded."
13 In saying "new," He has made the former old. Now that which is growing old and decrepit is near its disappearance.
Many believe we are now under the "New Covenant", have a look at verse 11, ..."for all shall be aguainted with Me" (God). Think about it, are "ALL" aquianted with God Now? I don't think so!

Blessings, Jerry.

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Michael Harrison
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Jesus came for one reason, that was to impliment the New Covenant. Therefore His words were for those to whom the New Covenant would apply, at the same time they were 'against' those who would reject Him.
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Of course Jerry. And we are to conclude from 'correctly cutting' that everyone will be saved? That is like claiming that HE is only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. As I read it, that would include me. "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but in the circumcision of the heart." It was 'expedient' that HE would say that at that time to that woman, for HE had not ascended yet. Prophecy was not yet fulfilled! It was the only proper way that HE could answer her, then till all things were fulfilled. But His statement was not implying that His words were not 'truth' for the generations to come. They are as much about us, 'concerning who HE is' (and what HE does). So whatever HE said about Himself and His Kingdom, HE said for everyone.

Hi Michael.
You may misunderstand my meaning when I point to Matt.15:24. Yes, Jesus message was to Israel, and only to them, His words!
Although His teachings were to Israel only, we must understand that they rejected Him as thier "Messiah". Their rejection was a blessing to the gentiles, because God divorced them and turned to the gentiles (Acts13:46). Christ died for all mankind, He has "justified" us all, paid our penalty for sin. We are now "under Grace", both Jew and Gentile, there is no difference in this era. What I amd saying is, we are not to dismiss Christs sacrifice, or His Name, just because His message was to the Jews. But because His sacifice was for ALL. We are deeply indebted to Him as the Saviour of all.

Blessings, Jerry.

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Michael Harrison
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Of course Jerry. And we are to conclude from 'correctly cutting' that everyone will be saved? That is like claiming that HE is only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. As I read it, that would include me. "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but in the circumcision of the heart." It was 'expedient' that HE would say that at that time to that woman, for HE had not ascended yet. Prophecy was not yet fulfilled! It was the only proper way that HE could answer her, then till all things were fulfilled. But His statement was not implying that His words were not 'truth' for the generations to come. They are as much about us, 'concerning who HE is' (and what HE does). So whatever HE said about Himself and His Kingdom, HE said for everyone.
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Hi Michael.
You said...It is simple! Just take one, or all four Gospels and separate out what Jesus said that was to Israel and not to us.

This one is simple, read Matt.15:24 -Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Spoken by Jesus Himself! Who can deny?

You said...the epistles are the derivitive of the Gospels, which are a derivitive of the OT.

WildB answered this as well, see his quote.
In addition, see Col.1:25-27, of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God --
26 the secret which has been concealed from the eons and from the generations, yet now was made manifest to His saints,
27 to whom God wills to make known what are the glorious riches of this secret among the nations, which is: Christ among you, the expectation of glory --

Notice "to complete the word of God" and also "The secret which has been concealed"? How can this be, as in your opinion, a derivitive of the old testament?

You say...Frozen Chozen is a term I have heard appllied to those who attend dry, or cold churches where there is no life.

For your information, I don't attend a "church", we (Gods chosen) "are" the church (Ecclesia). I certainly don't use that name as a means of boasting, quite the contrary, I take no credit at all for any part of my salvation, see Eph.1:10..."His achievement are we". See also the following:
Ro.8:33 Who will be indicting God's chosen ones? God, the Justifier?
Ro.11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it.
Ro.9:11 For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,
Col.3:12 Put on, then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, pitiful compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, patience,
2Tim.2:10 Therefore I am enduring all because of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian.

You said...When Jesus spoke, He spoke to all.
Again, you are wrong, Jesus words Matt.15:24, (see above). I repeat... "ALL scripture is FOR US, but all scripture is NOT ABOUT US".
Yes, ALL scripture is FOR us, to read and understand what God is doing with His creation, but we must "correctly cut the word of truth" (2Tim.2:15), to comprehend what is being said.

Blessings, Jerry.

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Mystery

(Gk. mustērion). The NT use of the term “mystery” has reference to some operation or plan of God hitherto unrevealed. It does not carry the idea of a secret to be withheld, but of one to be published (1 Corinthians 4:1; “secret things,” NIV). Paul uses the word twenty-one times. The term mystery, moreover, comprehends not only a previously hidden truth, presently divulged, but one that contains a supernatural element that still remains in spite of the revelation. The more important biblical mysteries are the following:

1. The mysteries of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 13:3-50).

2. The mystery of the translation of the living saints at the end of the church age (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 17).

3. The mystery of the church as the Body of Christ, composed of saved Jews and Gentiles of this age (Ephesians 3:1-11; 6:19; Colossians 4:3).

4. The mystery of the church as the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:28-32).

5. The mystery of “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Galatians 2:20; Colossians 1:26-27).

6. “God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself” (Colossians 2:2, 9; 1 Corinthians 2:7). This involves Christ as the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.

7. The mystery of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:7; Matthew 13:33).

8. The mystery of the operation by which man is restored to godliness (1 Timothy 3:16).

9. The mystery of Israel’s blindness during the gospel age (Romans 11:25).

10. The mystery of the seven stars (Revelation 1:20).

11. The mystery of Babylon, the harlot (Revelation 17:5, 7).

(The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary)

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
However, the epistles are the derivitive of the Gospels, which are a derivitive of the OT.

.

Thats odd.The Bible reads~

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

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That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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It is simple! Just take one, or all four Gospels and separate out what Jesus said that was to Israel and not to us. But your answer is that we should lean on the epistles instead. However, the epistles are the derivitive of the Gospels, which are a derivitive of the OT.

Frozen Chozen is a term I have heard appllied to those who attend dry, or cold churches where there is no life. It is just an extension which occurs in my mind because or your name, 'chosen one'.

When Jesus spoke, He spoke to all. Many times what HE says is multilayered, or multiapplicable. Sometimes what HE says applies to unbelievers, yet once again to believers. He is God, not just human. His word has a depth which cannot be limited to 'worldly' principles, understood by carnal reasoning. His words are life, and mean one thing to one group, yet another thing simultaneously to another.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi Michael.
FROZEN CHOSEN (may I call you that?

I don't mind what you call me. "Sticks and stones..."


I would be pleased to accept your "Challenge" if I could figure out what you are saying. If you could reword your statement in simpler terms, expressing exatly what point you are trying to make, then I would gladly try and answer your challenge.

Blessings, Jerry.

Good luck and expect more sticks and stones.

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That is all.....

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Hi Michael.
FROZEN CHOSEN (may I call you that?

I don't mind what you call me. "Sticks and stones..."

There were gentile believers in the true God, including the most famous, Rahab the harlott. To that end such are even mentioned in the gospels using the name proselytes. So gentiles were a part of God's happening upon the earth.

I have no argument with that statement, All creation is "Gods happening". Have I made a statement negative to that?

I challenge you to illustrate whatever I use as applying only to the old dispensation, as to Israel, with no relevance to the New. In the 'limitations' which you impose, they may make sense to you in the way that you understand them, even as the doctrine of the different factions of Christianity make sense to those who 'prefer' one above another. But they are fruitless if they do not manifest Christ in the life, or sanctify one to Him.

I would be pleased to accept your "Challenge" if I could figure out what you are saying. If you could reword your statement in simpler terms, expressing exatly what point you are trying to make, then I would gladly try and answer your challenge.

Blessings, Jerry.

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oneinchrist
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Hi again Jerry,
In reference to the question that I had asked you about Peters passage........ "if it first begins with US, what shall be the end of THEM, I am highlighting "them" and "us" for the reason that I do believe that in Peters use of the word "us" in this passage he is referring to himself and all other Jews(assuming "house of God" is Israel), and then assumably "them" would refer to all other gentile nations. So to clarify my point about Peters passage..........

I did not state that Peter was adressing the gentiles per se in that passage, but that it sure does appear that he is making reference to the gentiles by use of the word "them"

Thank you for the response to my question that I had for you about revelation. Neither do I understand the entire book of Revelation......but I do believe that I do understand some of it. In my opinion, I do believe it important to try and understand what Jesus is saying, because He is all peoples, all nations intercessor to God.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi WildB.
Thank you. A very good explanation in that website you included, I appreciate it.

Blessings, Jerry.

Heres another good tool...

 -


http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/slindex/searchlightindex.html Berean Searchlight Scripture Index

We now offer an online Berean Searchlight Scripture Index. You can look up a verse and see where it has been discussed in the Berean Searchlight. This index includes every verse used in Searchlight articles from 1987-2007. The Scripture Index is available as a webpage or a Microsoft Excel file.

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That is all.....

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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Jerry,
I also read that link that Wild B provided. I would like to ask you a question that is related to something taught in that link.

The book of Revelation has 7 letters to 7 churches which are from Jesus. Would you say that the warnings that Jesus gave to those churches do not apply to us because we were not from those churches?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Hi again oneinchrist.
The book of "Revelation" also termed "The Unveiling of Jesus Christ", is a very difficult book to understand. I believe it is to those of 'the covenant', Israel. But I wouldn't like to comment on this , I really don't understand most of it, and to make any statements would be unfair, because I have to admit, I just don't know.

Blessings, Jerry.

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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Jerry,
I am concerned about the way that you are viewing the gospel of Jesus.

Is'nt Peter making reference to both Jews and Gentiles in this passage?.........

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God. and...
is'nt Paul adressing gentiles (Thessalonica) in this passage?

2Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do apologize if I mis-quoted you. I was really concerned with the statement you made about Jesus' gospel teachings being only for Israel.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Hi oneinchrist.
Thanks for you reply and question. I do respect all opinions, and remember, I am human, not infalible, and prone to error as is any human. I express my opinion as others do, believing what I believe is Gods word. I'm sure you and others do likewise.

Regarding your question about 1Peter.4:17.
No, I believe if you look at the first chapter Verse 1 ...1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the chosen expatriates of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, the province of Asia, and Bithynia,
Notice it says "...to the chosen expatriates of the dispersion", this means the dispersed of Israel (Jews) that are in other regions. We must remember at this time, God has divorced Israel, and turned to the "nations". We are now not under the law, but under "grace", both Jew and Gentile. The 'chosen' in that sentence must mean the ecclesia, the body of Christ. We must understand, that many Jews still held to the belief that they were still under the law, and kept to the 'old' ways, to this very day.

Your other question about 2Thess.1:8 ...8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ --
Notice that this letter is written by Paul, who was commissioned by God to... (Ro.15:15-16) ...because of the grace being given to me from God,
16 for me to be the minister of Christ Jesus for the nations, acting as a priest of the evangel of God, that the approach present of the nations may be becoming well received, having been hallowed by holy spirit.
It was Paul given to be the minister of Jesus for the nations to "complete the word of God". (Col.1:25) ...25 of which I (Paul) became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God --
Notice Paul was to "complete" the word of God, Not previousley known before.
Yes, he was addressing the "nations" (Gentiles)

Blessing, Jerry.

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oneinchrist
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Hi again Jerry,
I also read that link that Wild B provided. I would like to ask you a question that is related to something taught in that link.

The book of Revelation has 7 letters to 7 churches which are from Jesus. Would you say that the warnings that Jesus gave to those churches do not apply to us because we were not from those churches?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Jerry,
I am concerned about the way that you are viewing the gospel of Jesus.

Is'nt Peter making reference to both Jews and Gentiles in this passage?.........

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God. and...

is'nt Paul adressing gentiles (Thessalonica) in this passage?

2Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I do apologize if I mis-quoted you. I was really concerned with the statement you made about Jesus' gospel teachings being only for Israel.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
FROZEN CHOSEN (may I call you that?
quote:
Hi all.
Some very intense and interesting debate going on in this thread. May I mention that so many quote scripture from anywhere in the bible, and apply it to us as an example for the point you are trying to make.
Many scripture from the four gospels are used as an example for us, when it was meant for Israel. Matt. 15:24, the very words of Jesus says...24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." His teaching was to "Israel", we had no part in this era. See Eph.2:11-12...11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. Notice "AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD"
We gentiles were not included until Israel rejected Christ and crucified Him, and when again rejected, God turned to the 'nations'. See Acts.13:46 ...46 Being bold, both Paul and Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of eonian life, lo! we are turning to the nations.


I suggest that you do the work so that I will not have to. [Roll Eyes] There were gentile believers in the true God, including the most famous, Rahab the harlott. To that end such are even mentioned in the gospels using the name proselytes. So gentiles were a part of God's happening upon the earth.

There are things to look at concerning Jesus' words when HE walked on earth. He spoke as being under the law, and HE spoke to Israel (and proselytes). But we had this discussion already. Unfortunately you are unable to see how what HE said, far more often than not, applies to us also, insomuch as they apply to the Kingdom of which Israel, and we are a part. But His words are about HIM, concerning who HE is, which necessarily makes them to apply to any who are in relationship to Him. If you were in relationship with HIM you would see how these apply to you, for the Kingdom is Spiritual, which is unseen. Yet what you see His verbiage applying to, is what you can see. What you see HIS words indicating is only a part of their meaning - a very small part. You 'limit' His words to 'situational' or positional relevance according to the dispensation of the law. However, what you overlook is that the speaker is not limited by these, and was in fact the very institution of a new way, even as HE spoke. Therefore His words apply to that new way, and distinguish between thold and the new.

I challenge you to illustrate whatever I use as applying only to the old dispensation, as to Israel, with no relevance to the New. In the 'limitations' which you impose, they may make sense to you in the way that you understand them, even as the doctrine of the different factions of Christianity make sense to those who 'prefer' one above another. But they are fruitless if they do not manifest Christ in the life, or sanctify one to Him.

You deserve the likes of wylb. May he praise thee often! [thumbsup2]

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Carol Swenson
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Jerry
quote:
He sent His Son "Jesus" to them as the 'promised Messiah'. His (Jesus) teaching was to them only (Matt.15:24). Many, I would say most, quote His words as if they were spoken to all.
NCV:
1 In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 All things were made by him, and nothing was made without him. 4 In him there was life, and that life was the light of all people . 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overpowered it.


Jerry,

You teach Universalism. Who do you say that Jesus Christ is? What part does Jesus Christ play in your life?

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Carol Swenson
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John 10:14 - 16 (NLT)
14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

Jesus had already spoken of leading out his sheep from the fold of Judaism. All of his disciples came out of this fold, as did all those Jews who came to believe in him as their Messiah. Jesus knew, however, that he had other sheep that were not from Judaism. These other sheep are Gentile believers. Jesus came to save Gentiles as well as Jews. This is an insight into his worldwide mission—to die for sinful people all over the world.

The Good Shepherd came to gather together God’s people into one flock (Ezekiel 34:11-14, 23). The new Gentile believers and the Jewish believers who left Judaism would form one flock that would be altogether outside of Judaism. The flock would have one Shepherd. Furthermore, Jesus’ words here foreshadow those he uttered in his prayer for the oneness of all those who would believe in him through the disciples’ message (John 17:20ff.)

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chosenone
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Chosen One,
Would you please give a few more examples of quoted scriptures that have been used by members that are being used improperly---another words-----teachings that are "not for us".
I think it not profitable to make that sort of statement and then not go on to discuss the specifics. Its like saying "well, you just want to see scripture the way that you want", but not really caring if another is getting what they should from the scriptures. We can, I believe, all learn from each other. I believe there are frequent fellowshippers here who do love the Lord very much.

If I am hearing your right, you are not suggesting that none of the gospel teachings are for us?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Hi Daniel.
If you read my post carefully, you will see I never said, "...are not for us". I will repeat what I wrote, read it carefully: "All scripture is FOR us, but not all scripture is ABOUT us".
You see, ALL scripture is FOR us, to read and understand what God is doing with His creation. In the 'Old Testament', God was the God of Israel, His "chosen people". He made a covenant with them (the Old Covenant), and chose Moses to give this message to his people, the Israelites. He sent His Son "Jesus" to them as the 'promised Messiah'. His (Jesus) teaching was to them only (Matt.15:24). Many, I would say most, quote His words as if they were spoken to all. See Eph.2:11-12...11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world.
Notice that we were 'without God in the world', only His "chosen people" Israel were with God in that era.
So, briefly, the four gospels are not ABOUT US, but are definately FOR US, we must understand this to know what God is doing with His creation.
This is part of "correctly cutting the word of truth" (2Tim.2:15).

Blessings, Jerry.

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1 Corinthians 1:13 (NLT)
Has Christ been divided into factions? Was I, Paul, crucified for you?

Every teaching of Jesus is of compelling interest to Christians . In part this is because we recognize Jesus as the fullest, the most complete, and the final revelation of God. As God come among us as a human being, Jesus was uniquely able to explain the Old Testament and to reveal new truths about God the Father and God’s plans and purposes.

When we read the Gospels and compare the teachings there with the teachings of first-century rabbis, we begin to understand how vital it was that Christ appear. Long before, Moses had promised that God would send a prophet like himself to His people, who would explain the true meaning of the older revelation. It is increasingly clear as we see how Jesus’ teachings diverged from those of the rabbis that by the first century His coming was urgent indeed.
It is also interesting that among the first questions asked by those who heard Jesus teach was, “Is this The Prophet?” (John 6:14). Israel, too, was looking for an authoritative interpreter of God’s will. Christ answered that question in His Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus announced that He had come to “fulfill” the Law—an idiom which meant that He was about to give a full and complete explanation of the true meaning of the Torah, God’s Old Testament revelation. This is particularly important, as we’re reminded that to truly understand the Old Testament, we must read it through the lens provided by the coming, the teachings, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The teachings of Jesus are important for another reason too. Not only did Christ provide the keys by which we might rightly interpret the Old Testament, Christ also introduced truths which are to shape our personal relationship with God and with others today. Christ’s teachings are vitally relevant to our daily life. His words are to shape our values, determine our priorities, and—as we live by them—transform our character.

The teachings of Jesus are not always easy for us to understand. This is in part because they were spoken in a particular time and place, in a culture that is strange to us. It is also in part because the way of life that Jesus marks out for us, and the values He calls us to adopt, are foreign to human nature. Jesus calls us to exchange success for servanthood, to abandon pride for humility, and to reject materialism for spiritual values that the people of this world view as foolishness. Such teachings go against the grain of our humanity, and rather than take Christ at His word we may be tempted to reinterpret or explain away His more challenging teachings.

Yet the teachings of Jesus introduce us to a life that Christ promised would be marked by power, by joy, and by fulfillment. As Christ’s disciples once remarked when asked by the Lord if they would abandon Him as others had, “Where shall we go? You have the words of eternal life” (John 6:68).

(Every Teaching of Jesus in the Bible)

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chosenone
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Hi WildB.
Thank you. A very good explanation in that website you included, I appreciate it.

Blessings, Jerry.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Chosen One,
Would you please give a few more examples of quoted scriptures that have been used by members that are being used improperly---another words-----teachings that are "not for us".
I think it not profitable to make that sort of statement and then not go on to discuss the specifics. Its like saying "well, you just want to see scripture the way that you want", but not really caring if another is getting what they should from the scriptures. We can, I believe, all learn from each other. I believe there are frequent fellowshippers here who do love the Lord very much.

If I am hearing your right, you are not suggesting that none of the gospel teachings are for us?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Read this, "THINGS THAT DIFFER"

http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html#intr

--------------------
That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by chosenone:
Hi all.
Some very intense and interesting debate going on in this thread. May I mention that so many quote scripture from anywhere in the bible, and apply it to us as an example for the point you are trying to make.
Many scripture from the four gospels are used as an example for us, when it was meant for Israel. Matt. 15:24, the very words of Jesus says...24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." His teaching was to "Israel", we had no part in this era. See Eph.2:11-12...11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. Notice "AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD"
We gentiles were not included until Israel rejected Christ and crucified Him, and when again rejected, God turned to the 'nations'. See Acts.13:46 ...46 Being bold, both Paul and Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of eonian life, lo! we are turning to the nations.
One must remeber to "correctly cut the word of truth", (2Tim.2:15).
ALL SCRIPTURE IS FOR US, but ALL SCRIPTURE IS NOT ABOUT US.
So when trying to make a point, quote scripture that is relevent to whom it was spoken too, only Pauls epistles are about us. Yes, yes, yes, All is FOR us, but not all is ABOUT US!

Blessings, Jerry.

Good post

--------------------
That is all.....

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oneinchrist
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Hi Chosen One,
Would you please give a few more examples of quoted scriptures that have been used by members that are being used improperly---another words-----teachings that are "not for us".
I think it not profitable to make that sort of statement and then not go on to discuss the specifics. Its like saying "well, you just want to see scripture the way that you want", but not really caring if another is getting what they should from the scriptures. We can, I believe, all learn from each other. I believe there are frequent fellowshippers here who do love the Lord very much.

If I am hearing your right, you are not suggesting that none of the gospel teachings are for us?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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chosenone
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Hi all.
Some very intense and interesting debate going on in this thread. May I mention that so many quote scripture from anywhere in the bible, and apply it to us as an example for the point you are trying to make.
Many scripture from the four gospels are used as an example for us, when it was meant for Israel. Matt. 15:24, the very words of Jesus says...24 Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." His teaching was to "Israel", we had no part in this era. See Eph.2:11-12...11 Wherefore, remember that once you, the nations in flesh -- who are termed 'Uncircumcision' by those termed 'Circumcision,' in flesh, made by hands --
12 that you were, in that era, apart from Christ, being alienated from the citizenship of Israel, and guests of the promise covenants, having no expectation, and without God in the world. Notice "AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD"
We gentiles were not included until Israel rejected Christ and crucified Him, and when again rejected, God turned to the 'nations'. See Acts.13:46 ...46 Being bold, both Paul and Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of eonian life, lo! we are turning to the nations.
One must remeber to "correctly cut the word of truth", (2Tim.2:15).
ALL SCRIPTURE IS FOR US, but ALL SCRIPTURE IS NOT ABOUT US.
So when trying to make a point, quote scripture that is relevent to whom it was spoken too, only Pauls epistles are about us. Yes, yes, yes, All is FOR us, but not all is ABOUT US!

Blessings, Jerry.

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Carol Swenson
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Gifts

The Spirit of God has given to every believer one or more gifts or divine enablements for serving Christ. These differ from one another, Rom. 12:6-8. Nine gifts are listed in 1 Cor. 12:4-11, but this is not exhaustive, because gifted men are mentioned elsewhere who possess totally different gifts: apostles, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and others, 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:8-11. Gifts are given to men, while gifted men are given by the Lord to the church.

The divine order regarding gifts puts apostles first, prophets second, teachers third. Others follow in order, with tongues mentioned last, 1 Cor. 12:28. Christians were instructed to desire gifts, especially that of prophecy, 1 Cor. 12:31; 14:1, which is defined in v. 3. It was revealed that some gifts would cease, 1 Cor. 13:8.

Instructions for the use of gifts are given in 1 Pet. 4:10, 11. The parable of the pounds establishes the principle that rewards will differ for differing degrees of diligence in their use, Luke 19:11-27. The parable of the talents establishes the principle that rewards will be equal for equal faithfulness on the part of believers, Matt. 25:14-30.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
Dig? To bury the talent? No waaaaaaaay.

Talent being skill.

Skill being the gift the Holy Spirit gives to each believer to use in service to the body of Christ.

Here is more evidence that you don’t read. Yet you are willing to comment. So, just who are you in this for? Carol?

Dig? To bury the talent? That is not what my words said. DIG, means to find Christ the way that HE commands us to and not lie to ourselves about our relationship.

Talent being skill? Not even remotely. The talent was a ‘payment’. It was the wealth of the owner “Imparted” to the “Man who received only one talent.” The talent represents what God gives us of His Spirit. This man ‘buried’ what God had given him, which implies that he did not value the relationship such that he would ‘cultivate‘ it. And this has nothing to do with “Digging” to find the Pearl of Great Price, which means to “UNCOVER” Jesus, that ‘relationship’ which has “GREAT WORTH.” So why do you p on me and attempt to hurt the faith of others? Will HE not judge you in this?

Skill is useless. Your natural ability means not much to God. Natural ability can only build ‘wood, hay and stubble’. One would be better informed to ‘trust’ in God. But one cannot do that if he or she is not really in relationship with the “Living God!”

Wylb! You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him think. You can lead someone to scripture, but you cannot make him think!

  • Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Your scared.

--------------------
That is all.....

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Dig? To bury the talent? No waaaaaaaay.

Talent being skill.

Skill being the gift the Holy Spirit gives to each believer to use in service to the body of Christ.

Here is more evidence that you don’t read. Yet you are willing to comment. So, just who are you in this for? Carol?

Dig? To bury the talent? That is not what my words said. DIG, means to find Christ the way that HE commands us to and not lie to ourselves about our relationship.

Talent being skill? Not even remotely. The talent was a ‘payment’. It was the wealth of the owner “Imparted” to the “Man who received only one talent.” The talent represents what God gives us of His Spirit. This man ‘buried’ what God had given him, which implies that he did not value the relationship such that he would ‘cultivate‘ it. And this has nothing to do with “Digging” to find the Pearl of Great Price, which means to “UNCOVER” Jesus, that ‘relationship’ which has “GREAT WORTH.” So why do you p on me and attempt to hurt the faith of others? Will HE not judge you in this?

Skill is useless. Your natural ability means not much to God. Natural ability can only build ‘wood, hay and stubble’. One would be better informed to ‘trust’ in God. But one cannot do that if he or she is not really in relationship with the “Living God!”

Wylb! You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him think. You can lead someone to scripture, but you cannot make him think!

  • Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

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Carol Swenson
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Dig? To bury the talent? No way.

"Talent" being skill, (represented by coins).

Skill being the gift the Holy Spirit gives to each believer to use in service to the body of Christ.

We have been assigned our ministries according to the abilities and gifts God has given us. It is our privilege to serve the Lord.

Can't make him drink the H2O, but he can be splashed a little.

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