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Originally posted by fastforward:
waynemlj,
This type of argument here really doesn’t make sense to me. You don’t think that those you address are well versed on this subject, (at least they think they are)? I guarantee you that there has been a lot of practice bringing canned answers to the ready here at this site, (this is the reason for the impatience shown for this subject).

I am going to take a chance and look at your post for a moment, (even though we are treading on thin ice).

Will you agree that both systems are not without their respective problems?

fastforward

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Hi Michael,

In your honest opinion, would you say that I have a speech impediment?

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Dear Carol Swenson, it is hard to tell from typed answers whether you have a speech impediment.

But if you do have a speech impediment, I don't see how a speech impediment could prevent your fingers from typing to the LORD, that you should not be like Moses by the burning bush?

Hello, typing is a God-sent for someone who has a speech impediment, isn't it?

love, eden

"and every knee shall bow to Him, including the knees of Christians", but if we kneel before Him now, then we will know how to kneel before Him then"

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
Amen Carol, Father is reconciling all, meaning everyone, to Himself through Christ. Which is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are both in error. They both teach an eternal damnation or Hell.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
really didn't suspect you would act like Jonah or the prodigal's brother but tis your forum and your rules and your facts. Good bye

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Good bye.



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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
I used to believe eternal hell was fact too David. I won't argue about it but I challenge you to study it out for yourself referencing back to the original Greek text and not English translations. study the wGreek word aion and aionios. You might be surprised.

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by fastforward:
waynemlj,
This type of argument here really doesn’t make sense to me. You don’t think that those you address are well versed on this subject, (at least they think they are)? I guarantee you that there has been a lot of practice bringing canned answers to the ready here at this site, (this is the reason for the impatience shown for this subject).

I am going to take a chance and look at your post for a moment, (even though we are treading on thin ice).

Will you agree that both systems are not without their respective problems?

fastforward

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
Amen Carol, Father is reconciling all, meaning everyone, to Himself through Christ. Which is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are both in error. They both teach an eternal damnation or Hell.

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Yahweh gives me the power to make a choice without a doubt this is a true statement...

but if then I am not at liberty to make a free will decision of acceptance or rejection of Salvation through the Atonement of Yeshua's Blood then Yahweh is just a tyrant forcing those He choices to become His robots.

Yahweh only desires those that choose to accept His gift because of love because He loved first and they want to obey His commands and live by His precepts because they love Him.

no duty or legal requirements just a free choice to love Him , love Him for all He has done.

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Originally posted by fastforward:
The truth? We could just as easily discuss the “truth” of Armenianism-

The truth is that when some of us discuss Calvinism, immediately it is taken to the extreme (example-“preprogrammed robots”). So in all fairness we should be able to take Armenianism to the extreme for just a moment.

Taken to the extreme Armenianism becomes works based salvation which is no salvation.

(Am I sensing a little hair tingling on the backs of some of the readers after this last?)

fastforward

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Unrepentant hearts and unbelief are both more linked with our own rebellion and disobedience than anything else. If we were to say that repentance and faith are 100% hand-outs, then we would have to at least associate God with the cause for the sin of unbelief and rebellion of the lost, because God left them that way. That I am not willing to do.

Waynem, I respect your position, but do not agree with it. You hold to a particular theology that takes a small number of scriptures to back it up. Though I cannot dispute the scriptures you use, I can dispute the way that you view them and try to make a case. If I am accused of not believing in predestination, that is a false accusation. I believe in it.....but I question how some perceive it. To go as far as to say that man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation I strongly oppose. I will also continue to believe that faith involves consent of the will otherwise we are just left with a mental assent to bible facts with no intent on acting on them.

For most of my life I was a believer, ever since I was a young child I was taught the 10 Commandments and all the fun bible stories up to Jesus. I believed in God. But it was'nt until 1995 that a bible believing man came into my life and I found myself to be a hypocrite. God's will for my life was not my concern and I had a passive attitude towards sin. I was in rebellion. I had never repented so I was an unrepentant believer......sounds like an oxymoron, but it is'nt. My believing was hypocritical because I had never come to God in sincere repentance for my rebellion to him. I was lost and never even had the spirit of God. By Gods grace He was patient and waited for me to realize that I was still in my sin and that I needed to repent. I thank him for bringing that bible-believing man into my life to help show me my real status. I was left with a decision to make: Repent, turn from my sin and position of rebellion to God and turn to God and His will for my life or just continue on living my same old life. To make a long story short I ended up repenting and then going to be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus and sometime afterwards the Holy Spirit began to be a more identifiable part of my life.

In conclusion, I see God as providing the way and waiting on a satisfactory response from us. When He is satisfied with our response then the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and helps us to transform into Christ-likeness. Then we would become born-again....not born-again first and then repentance and faith towards Christ.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Originally posted by David Campbell:

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Originally posted by waynemlj:
Hi Daniel,

According to your reply, I understood that you realize that you did not choose God, but that He chose you.

He gave you the gift of faith to believe the words of Jesus regarding the Gospel of Salvation.

I certainly agree with that truth.

I wonder, though, why you replied to this topic, since you didn't really discuss it.

waynemlj

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waynemlj,

I guess what you are saying waynemlj is you are a calvinist and you believe in limited grace (only for the Elect) and we believe in
Armenianism- teaches temporary grace (for all for now), And there is an end to grace

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not
Romans 10:17 Faith comes from hearing God’s message
James 1:18 We are made his children by his word
1 Timothy 5:12 Some cast off their faith
1 Timothy 4:1 Some turn from their faith
2 Timothy 2:18 Some have their faith overthrown by others
Romans 10:9-10 With heart believes unto righteousness; with mouth confession is made unto salvation
1 John 1:9 If we repent he is just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness
Luke 24:47 Repentance & Remission of sins is the message of the Gospel
Deuteronomy 30:15-19 God gives us a choice between life and death
Joshua 24:15 We choose who to serve
Romans 2:4(b) not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Romans 6:16 Choosing sin leads to death, choosing God leads life
Proverbs 1:29 Some hate wisdom and choose not to fear God
Ezekiel 18:4 & 19-20 God says the one who does right shall live, and the one who sins shall die
Ezekiel 18:25 & 29 God is not unfair about this
Ezekiel 18:17, 21-22, & 27 Those that turn from sin will live
Hebrews 9:11-12 By his blood our salvation is secured in heaven and nothing else, it was a more perfect sacrifice
Mark 13:13(b) but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved
Luke 6:46 And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say
Luke 13:3, 5 Except you repent ye shall likewise perish
John 5:29 Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgement
John 15:6-7 Jesus says that those who stay in him will inherit and those who don’t will be thrown into the fire
Romans 2:7-9 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality
2 Corinthians 7:10 God uses sorrow to turn us back to him by repentance, but sorrow without repentance still leads to death
2 Corinthians 11:2-4 I fear somehow you will be led away just as Eve was
Philippians 2:12-16 Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling, that I may have not laboured in vain
Colossians 2:6-7 As you accepted Christ you must continue to live in obedience to him letting him change you
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 God called us to holiness, if you despise this then your rejecting God
1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the Faith, and now follow demons and doctrine of Devils
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape judgement if we neglect such a great salvation
Hebrews 3:12-13 Make sure that your hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning away from the Living God, warn everyone so that no ones is deceived by sin and their heart is hardened against God
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore repentance to those who knew the truth then rejected it, recrucifying Christ to the Cross
Hebrews 10:26-27 If we willfully sin after receiving the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins
Hebrews 12:17 Esau lost what could have been his, he cried bitterly for it, but it was too late for repentance
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Peter 2:20-21 For someone who was saved then returns to the world, it would have been better to not have responded the first time
2 Peter 3:15-18 Don’t misunderstand the Grace Paul preached about, I don’t want you to lose your secure footing
1 John 3:7-9 You must do what is right if you have God in you, if you continue in sin you belong to the devil
Jude 4-7 False teachers say with Grace you can continue in sin, but let me warn you God didn’t spare the Angels already with him
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life
Exodus 32:33 Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book
Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous

Teaching that we have nothing to do with our salvation such as making the choice to follow Jesus reminds me of Mormonism, Catholicism, Jehovah Witnesses, & the other Cults these teachings reduce Gods plan for our Salvation. Turning us to a mere program or cold mechanism, drawing us away from a relationship with a loving God. This also causes people to have an atmosphere of superiority about them. Their unspoken message is, “We are better than you and God loves us more, because he chose us to give us special Revelation which is true Salvation” I sure don’t think this could be from the God of the Bible. Who is love, where Jesus said He died for our sins. He did not say he died for some peoples sins, but for all.

I do believe in predestination. Jesus Christ died for all making us all predestined for salvation. But if we do not take the free gift of salvation, then we change our destiny by rejecting the only one (Jesus Christ) that died so ALL can live.


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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
Let’s see. And what question should I answer first? Mmmmmm.

Oh, I know, the silly one first-

That Calvinists or anyone else on the planet for that matter would think that people are preprogrammed robots. What serious, fair-minded person, persons, organizations or systems of thought teach that people are preprogrammed robots? If you want to be a debater, you are going to have to do better.

Could you give me any names of people; it doesn’t have to even be Calvinists, (in order to make it easier for you) that teach such of a thing.

fastforward

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
Your questions will be answered even though they seem a bit litmus-ee. Oh by the way do all new comers receive such warm welcomes?

fastforward

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I agree Michael that is the correct answer but "once Saved Always " damnable doctrine teaches different.

any comment waynemlj

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Unconditional Election = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12).

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Correct me if I am wrong....I assume that you see man as automatically sanctified by the "gift of faith". I, on the other hand see man as sanctified both by the holy spirit of God and through obedience to His word.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi fast foward,
Its nice to meet you. Im not all that versed on the differences between calvinism and arminanism, but I will tell you the difference that I see that seems drastic. Correct me if I am wrong, but does'nt calvinism teach that a man is born again and then he is is able to repent and believe?

So if I were a calvinist and I was witnessing to an unbeliever, I would'nt tell them what the apostles told the men who asked "What must I do to be saved?"...that is..... "Repent, be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"......I am assuming as a calvinist that I would need to tell them that they need to be born again.....but then I would have to tell them about the fine print at the bottom that says it is only possible if God chooses you to be born again.

I guess I have to say if being an arminian means to preach what the bible teaches about what we need to do in order to be saved, I lean more towards arminian. Repent, be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Daniel.

Calvinist think they are the only ones that can be saved. For some reason they think they are chosen and others are just here to go to hell. Which in turn will make them believe they are better then other people. This just does not fit in with the context of the entire bible. My bible says Jesus died for all. I do not believe that Limited Atonement is correct. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if ANY man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world. ~ 1 John 2:1-2 (KJV) Notice: (ANY and WHOLE)

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. ~ John 1:29 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ~ John 3:16 (KJV) Notice: (WHOSOEVER)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time. ~ 1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV) Notice: (ALL)

Question: "What is Calvinism and is it Biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?"

Answer: The five points of Calvinism can be summarized with the letters TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs. Total Depravity = as a result of Adam’s fall the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12).

Limited Atonement = Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25). Irresistible Grace = Those whom God elected and Christ died for, God draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37,44; 10:16). Perseverance of the Saints = The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

I believe that Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints are Biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – it is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. However, I do not believe that Limited Atonement is correct. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6.




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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
These cults that you mention all have one thing in common, works. Whether it is going around knocking on doors or attending the mass, their basic premise is works. This is not to discount the value of works, only to point out that the cults trust not in the finished work of Christ but on something that we can supposedly do for ourselves.

As far as the Scripture verses that you give, they are very good. But if you have given them as a rebuttal for Calvinism I can hardly see how these would qualify, (maybe there will be some further enlightenment). It should hardly come as any surprise that Calvinism and Armenianism coexist. Can you imagine a time when we humans were not given an opportunity to make a wrong choice? Counterfeiting is the oldest trick in the devil’s play book. Our job is to figure out which is which. And our responsibility is to follow the genuine, no matter what.

Did you know that there is only one elect? We can take a copy of the old King James Bible and look it up if you would like.

fastforward

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by waynemlj:
Hi Daniel,

According to your reply, I understood that you realize that you did not choose God, but that He chose you.

He gave you the gift of faith to believe the words of Jesus regarding the Gospel of Salvation.

I certainly agree with that truth.

I wonder, though, why you replied to this topic, since you didn't really discuss it.

waynemlj

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged |