quote:

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John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.

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quote:

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1 John 1:5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

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The fellowship with God maintains the lighted walk. Notice that the cleansing of the blood of Jesus Christ, God's son, from all sin is synergistic with (if not consequential to) the lighted walk and fellowship with believers.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
The truth is not something that you 'do', because you cannot. It is something that you participate in with the doer, by faith.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
(You preach the most precious truth unspeakable in glory, and rather than laying hold, the hearers clinch harder the lardar ))
 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Michael Harrison said

quote:

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It is something that you participate in with the doer, by faith.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Waynemlj,
I would like to ask you a question that relates to something you said in your last post to me.....about the "gift of faith".......

How about the lost/unbelieving? are they one's who refuse to repent and believe, or are they one's to whom God does not desire to give the gift of repentance and the gift of faith? Your answer to this question will help me to understand your position better.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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quote:

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1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 Cor 8:1 ¶ Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

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quote:

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...and sometime afterwards the Holy Spirit began to be a more identifiable part of my life.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CWO4GUNNER:

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

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Now I can know that I pray according to God's will, and that I have what I ask for when I give thanks that God is not willing that Nate should perish. but that he should come to repentance.
Glory to God.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi lonlesol,
How are you doing? It's been a while since we last talked. Of course I will share with you some of the ways in which the Holy Spirit has become more identifiable in my life. Please give me a little time to collect my thoughts and do some writing so that I can share with you some of my testimony. Thank you.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by lonlesol (Member # 4511) on :
 
Hello oneinchrist...I am holding on to God's Word as much as I possibly can!...take your time, and I thank you in advance...


I have been reading this book called: ''Discern the will of the Lord in your life''...written by Paul C. Jong...anyone can get this book for free through the internet...

It is written in very simple words but pretty good in itself...there is this chapter in the book that describes exactly what I have been going through these past few years, with minor differences...as if this particular chapter was written for me!...I am typing it at this moment and will post it once I am done...


It is based on Luke 12:49-53


Luke 12:49-53 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Not Peace but Division
49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
Yahweh couldn’t care less about anything than He does your or my theology.

Yahweh is looking for hearts perfect toward Him…

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars…

Philippians 1:15
Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

Do I love Yahweh with all my heart, mind body and soul ?
Do I love my neighbor as I love myself?

Is Yeshua’s Blood all I come before Yahweh with for my acceptance into sonship?

Because someone does or doesn’t believe in the teaching of Predestination, the Trinity or some other petty doctrine exclude them from Yeshua’s Love?

Read Ephesians 4 pay close attention to verse 2 and verse 13…

quote:

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Michael Harrison made several very good Spiritually discerned statements…
Michael said….The argument for 'correct theology' is the very reason why we have a burgeoning array of denominations, each of whom has 'the correct theology'.

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This is one reason for the Body of Christ being such a reproach in the earth today,
The Baptist say they are right,
The Pentecost say they are right,
The Methodist say they are right,
The Assemblies of God say they are right,
The Mennonites say they are right,
The Amish say they are right,

If I left some denomination out, you can fill them in all are the same.

They all divide the Body of Christ…

Where is the … With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. …

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ;
21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

[/QUOTE] Michael also said….. Ok! When someone tries to nail down their theology, what they are doing is forming the boundaries wherein they feel secure and comfortable. They fill those boundaries with the likeminded with whom they can associate securely so that they can feel reinforced. But the life that is Christ is beyond theology because it is the life that IS Christ. It is a faith/revelation thing. [/QUOTE]

I assure you Yahweh is bigger than any of our theology!

Yahweh can not be put in a “Once Saved, always Saved “ box!

Yahweh can not be put in a “Predestination” box!

As sure as you say Yahweh can’t do this or that He will show you different!


[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

I CERTAINLY THOUGHT THIS WAS ENLIGHTENING. BEYOND OUR SUN ... IT'S A BIG UNIVERSE.

[IMG][/IMG]




ANTARES IS THE 15TH BRIGHTEST STAR IN THE SKY.
IT IS MORE THAN 1000 LIGHT YEARS AWAY.
NOW HOW BIG ARE YOU?
------------------------------------------------------------------

NOW TRY TO WRAP YOUR MIND AROUND THIS.........


THIS IS A HUBBLE TELESCOPE ULTRA DEEP FIELD INFRAR ED VIEW OF COUNTLESS
'ENTIRE' GALAXIES BILLIONS OF LIGHT-YEARS AWAY.



BELOW IS A CLOSE UP OF ONE OF THE DARKEST REGIONS OF THE PHOTO ABOVE .


[IMG][/IMG]


HUMBLING, ISN'T IT?


And yet, Someone knows how many hairs are on your head,

and not even a single sparrow dies apart from His will (Mt 10:29 -31)!


NOW HOW BIG ARE YOU?
AND HOW BIG ARE THE THINGS THAT UPSET YOU TODAY?


AND HOW BIG IS YOUR GOD?

KEEP LIFE IN PERSPECTIVE.

IT'S ALL UNDER CONTROL (Job 38)
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Lonlesol,
This testimony that I am about to share is the first time I have shared it publicly on a christian site. I will need to share the whole story from start to present in order that you may believe and see God's hand in it.

In November of 2005 a co-worker friend of mine came up to me and asked me if I had heard the latest headline news. I said "no, now what?" Then he said "you never pay attention" then he went on to say that they arrested this guy Steven Avery for murder. He told me that he was the guy who caught national attention for being falsely imprisoned for over 16 yrs, and that he was also awaiting a big lawsuit case vs. State of WI. I said "that dont make any sense, what would be his motive?" My friend replied "because he must be either extremely stupid or nuts". Conversation ended and I was thinking about how the story did'nt seem to make sense.

In case you are wondering what this case is about....Teresa Halbach, a photographer from Hilbert, WI who worked for Auto Trader magazine went to Steven Avery's Auto Salvage yard to photo shoot some automobiles. This was the last time that she was seen by her family and friends and co-workers. The amount of physical evidence that was found on Steven Avery's property seemed to be enough to link him to the crime. He was arrested and then a year or so later was given a guilty sentence along with his nephew Brendon Dassey.

Well, anyways, the next day after I heard the news I decided to do a search on the internet to pick up the local news on the Teresa Halbach disappearance. I came upon a very peculiar article that stated that the search party that found Teresa Halbach's SUV on Steven Avery's property was headed by Teresa's ex-boyfriend. The ex-boyfriend also had made a comment to the News station that "she will be missed". I thought that was a strange thing to say considering Teresa Halbach was still only considered missing at that time. The next day I decided to call the FBI and share with them the information I found, and tell them that there could be the possibility that they have arrested the wrong guy in connection with Teresa Halbach's assumed death. They did express an interest and they ended up contacting the local Green Bay Field Office FBI.

A few days later I had a vision (I was awake before it began) in the night. The first vision was of a body of woods. I was being carried over the top of the woods so I was looking down at them from an ariel position. It was night time but a light was shining down so I could see clearly that it was a wooded area. The vision suddenly ended and then there was this brief moment of silence before the next vision opened up. Suddenly in the next vision I realized that I was on a beach. There was a light shining so I could see the sand for a good distance in both directions. Then all of a sudden after I realized what I saw then this vision suddenly ended and there was another brief moment of silence.......then suddenly a word was spoken, and that word was "shoe". It was as if the word stretched out and carried over water--but without an echo. I jumped out of bed and the first thing I did was find a Wisconsin map. I wanted to see if there was a wooded beach area near Steven Avery's property. To my astonishment, there indeed was, and it was located only a few miles down the road from Avery's property. It was a state forest area that joined up with the Lake Michigan beach. My next thought was "Oh my God" (in a good way) could it be that Teresa was murdered in that area and one of her shoes flew off?

I decided to call the FBI again. I knew they would think it quite strange that I was calling with a "dream", but I believed that I needed to do it. I told them that maybe they should have a search party down by the State Forest Lake Michigan area, which is quite close to the Avery Property. I had believed it would be a good idea to rule out any other possibilities.

Well, to fast foward a little more I found that the Milwaukee Branch FBI thought seriously about what I had told them, but the Green Bay FBI was not as interested claiming that the local police are "good and dependable guys" and they would not carelessly put the wrong guy in jail. I eventually was told by the Green Bay FBI that I was the crazy and obsessed one.

I was determined not to give up on the vision. I was able to get a hold of the ex-boyfriend's adress so I decided that I needed to send him a letter. I wrote to him detailing out the vision that I had which came in three distinct parts. The body of woods, the sandy beach, and the word "shoe". I recommended that if he is party to the crime that he let's out the truth for the freedom of the falsely accused, and that he be reconciled to God.

Today, I am still waiting to see the convicting power of the Word of God come to fruition. Perhaps God revealed something to me that no one else could possibly know save except God and the criminal. I do not know for sure, but there is hope in me that burns like a flame--desiring to see that day where we all can begin to digest the truth that God does really care and love us--and that the Holy Spirit has not abandoned us.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and on my handsmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; and they shall prophesy....

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Jesus is my theology, not something about Him, save one!
 

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Posted by CWO4GUNNER (Member # 6971) on :
 
I want to add a point to a verse that lonlesol posted above because it hit me and underscores an important truth. But first let me say it is important within our core Christin beliefs to know what we believe and why we believe it, these things I don't have to repeat here because you already know them. They are the beliefs that separates all of Christendom from the cults. Beyond this all our disagreements are trivial and fall far far behind our duty which is first and foremost that Christ is preached. Paul and Timothy made a very good point in Phil 1: 15-18 and that is if there is going to be strife among believers, let it be over the good news of Christ being preached. Paul was comfortable with this because he knew that even though we (man) is prone to being unfaithful and a lier, but God is always faithful and true. So even though my spirit gets stirred up over those that preach the Gospel in ways I don't agree, I never let it bother my sleep anymore because God's and his word is faithful like a two edged sword and the very reason I was saved while a catholic by just reading the catholic Bible. Praise God, let every man be a lier,but let God be true.

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. Phil 1: 15-18

What if some did not believe and were without faith? Does their lack of faith and their faithlessness nullify and make ineffective and void the faithfulness of God and His fidelity to His Word? By no means! Let God be found true though every human being is false and a liar, as it is written, That You God may be justified and shown to be upright in what You say, and prevail when You are judged by sinful men.
John 21:20-22

With respect to my earlier post I want to point out that Christians including myself have always had a bad habit of seeking comfort by trying to determine God's judment on other individuals and groups to make us feel secure. While it is a good thing to point out, quote and believe what the scriptures says in regards to judment it is none of our business to be excluding groups or individuals from salvation to satisfy our personal secure position with God, I have also done it in the past God forgive me. Nevertheless Jesus made this clear when he told Peter to mind his own business when he wanted to know what would happen to the betrayer (i.e.:is he going to hell lord?). Its not out judment, God will judge the world! Our job is to preach the good news of Jesus Christ crucified for the remission of sins.

But Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved, following--the one who also had leaned back on His breast at the supper and had said, Lord, who is it that is going to betray You? When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, Lord, what about this man? Jesus said to him, If I want him to stay (survive, live) until I come, what is that to you? [What concern is it of yours?] You follow Me!
John 21:20-22
 

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Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
(I knew that the truth would come out about some of you internet police.)


"Ok! When someone tries to nail down their theology, what they are doing is forming the boundries wherein they feel secure and comfortable. They fill those boundries with the likeminded with whom they can associate securely so that they can feel reinforced. But the life that is Christ is beyond theology because it is the life tht IS Christ. It is a faith/revelation thing. The denomination IS Christ. The understanding IS Christ. It is the life on the rock (not rocks, or sinking sand). Thereafter, every wind of doctrine (Eph4:14) becomes insignificant, for the person of whom their life consists, is established unto them in a unique way. Celebrate!

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• Bless those that curse you.
• Do good to those who despitefully use you.
• Lend expecting nothing again.
• Love your enemies.
• Teach the gentiles to observe the things whatsoever I have commanded you.
• Sell what you have and give alms.
• Do not lay up for yourselves riches on earth.

You get the picture.
Later, as I was reading Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus, I found some things the Holy Spirit said to teach. However the things we are supposed to teach are all instructions about how to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.
You can't make a living off of people when you are limited to that stuff. Even Paul, in Acts, chapter 20, only took about 3 years to teach the Ephesian overseers all the counsel of God. And he maintained a job, working with his hands, while he did that.
Clearly, Paul was in the full-time ministry in a world-changing way.

So, the denominations are not limiting themselves to "the counsels of God". They are offering licensed franchises for retail theology outlets and feel-good stations. Certainly, they use scriptures. However, they stay away from the instructional ones and focus on the informational ones.
Informational scriptures (scriptures that refer to history, wisdom, and prophecy) are very open to interpretation. A tweak here and an emphasis there and a little "things have changed in 2000 years" in another place, and you can really put together some ticklish stuff- even, sensational stuff.
But, is it the stuff that turns the world upside- down. Or, is it stuff that omits the commands of Jesus and the Holy Spirit making the church a comfortable place for the worldly.
I don't need the "just stuff" stuff.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
scythewieldor
 

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Posted by CWO4GUNNER (Member # 6971) on :
 
Let us then praise God in the highest, that although he doesn't need us, he loves and uses us to preach the simple message that the world stumbles on and considers foolish. Man is a lier but God is faithful and God's word will prevail and will be done in earth and heaven in spite of our weak use of his message and our filthy righteousness. Jesus Christ has save us from this body of death, so long as we abide in him.

"scythewieldor: Or, is it stuff that omits the commands of Jesus and the Holy Spirit making the church a comfortable place for the worldly.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

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In your quote above, you object to those who want to "nail down their theology," but God's word says in 2 Timothy 2:15, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."

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quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Unrepentant hearts and unbelief are both more linked with our own rebellion and disobedience than anything else. If we were to say that repentance and faith are 100% hand-outs, then we would have to at least associate God with the cause for the sin of unbelief and rebellion of the lost, because God left them that way. That I am not willing to do.

Waynem, I respect your position, but do not agree with it. You hold to a particular theology that takes a small number of scriptures to back it up. Though I cannot dispute the scriptures you use, I can dispute the way that you view them and try to make a case. If I am accused of not believing in predestination, that is a false accusation. I believe in it.....but I question how some perceive it. To go as far as to say that man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation I strongly oppose. I will also continue to believe that faith involves consent of the will otherwise we are just left with a mental assent to bible facts with no intent on acting on them.

For most of my life I was a believer, ever since I was a young child I was taught the 10 Commandments and all the fun bible stories up to Jesus. I believed in God. But it was'nt until 1995 that a bible believing man came into my life and I found myself to be a hypocrite. God's will for my life was not my concern and I had a passive attitude towards sin. I was in rebellion. I had never repented so I was an unrepentant believer......sounds like an oxymoron, but it is'nt. My believing was hypocritical because I had never come to God in sincere repentance for my rebellion to him. I was lost and never even had the spirit of God. By Gods grace He was patient and waited for me to realize that I was still in my sin and that I needed to repent. I thank him for bringing that bible-believing man into my life to help show me my real status. I was left with a decision to make: Repent, turn from my sin and position of rebellion to God and turn to God and His will for my life or just continue on living my same old life. To make a long story short I ended up repenting and then going to be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus and sometime afterwards the Holy Spirit began to be a more identifiable part of my life.

In conclusion, I see God as providing the way and waiting on a satisfactory response from us. When He is satisfied with our response then the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and helps us to transform into Christ-likeness. Then we would become born-again....not born-again first and then repentance and faith towards Christ.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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quote:

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To quote your quote

quote:

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Unrepentant hearts and unbelief are both more linked with our own rebellion and disobedience than anything else. If we were to say that repentance and faith are 100% hand-outs, then we would have to at least associate God with the cause for the sin of unbelief and rebellion of the lost, because God left them that way.

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You do not see faith as a 100% handout because you do not believe; and that quite simply

~~~~~~~~~ is your part ~~~~~~~~

- to believe!

Moreover, to be even more explicit, your part is to repent

~~~~~~~~~ of 'unbelief' ~~~~~~~~~

thereby to be affectionately delivered into His living care.

So you are right. However, upon believing, you discover the 100% side of this. Germinate, thou seed.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Waynemlj,
You are not comparing scripture with scripture. You are comparing scripture to the doctrine of "the total depravity of man" to come up with the conclusions that you do.
Sure seems like we have a pretty mean God if He sends people that "helplessly" reject the gospel to Hell.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Waynemlj,
You are not comparing scripture with scripture. You are comparing scripture to the doctrine of "the total depravity of man" to come up with the conclusions that you do.
Sure seems like we have a pretty mean God if He sends people that "helplessly" reject the gospel to Hell.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,
It appears that we do agree that an individual does not helplessly reject the gospel. But I am a little confused then. According to you, the elect repent and believe because the Holy Spirit decided to regenerate them. Does'nt that leave all the rest that the Holy Spirit decided not to regenerate in a "helpless" state unable to repent and believe? So what is the difference between helpless and unable to repent/believe and "helplessly rejecting then?"

I would like if you would consider this verse. John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which SHALL believe on me through their word;

It appears that the word "shall", when used by Jesus could easily be translated "will".

Let me show you a few more examples throughout scripture.

Rev. 8:16-17 They shall (will) hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall (will) the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall (will) feed them, and shall(will) lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall (will) wipe away all tears from their eyes.

A translation of must, can, could, should,or would, would not suffice in the above. I could find many more examples where "will" would be a suitable translatation for "shall". Anyways, to get to the point that I am going to try and make..........

Jesus does not say "but for them also which can believe on me through their word", He says...."but for them also which shall (will) believe on me through their word. The word believe in this verse is an action verb.

Its not that men cannot believe, its that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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__________________________________________________

Hi Daniel,

Especially these words of yours in your reply above I direct my response to:

"It's not that men cannot believe, it's that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later."

They are the same, if you think about it a little more. Whoever God does not give the gift of faith to Cannot believe and, therefore, Will not believe. Can you see that?

You have not made a distinction
that has anything in it that will change their eternal destiny.

If you just look at it logically like this, the point to be made is easy to see:

Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Now put in the circle a few dots to represent all those who are NOT given the gift of faith.

How many of those in that circle will come to believe in Christ as Savior?

None, right? Does it matter whether we say Cannot or Will not. Aren't they still in the same group?

waynemlj
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Whosoever hears, has the opportunity to believe.
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi again Waynemlj,

First of all the distinction that I am showing you is that "cannot believe" implies that one is not capable of doing, or has an insufficient capacity to function in a certain way, but on the other hand, "will not believe" indicates a deliberate refusal to put oneself in subjection to. There certainly is a big difference.

Lets cut to the chase now. You like to camp around this verse(no question about it).....

Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

I highlighted your favorite part. I perceive you are confident in what you believe and in how you perceive it to be true. You seem to be a fairly patient person willing to work through things in a cibil manner. Lets work together on this then. I believe that we must adress this issue using the most reliable way......comparing scripture to scripture. I will present the scriptures and politely ask if you would start off the discussion by providing an explanation on how the two "seemingly" opposing scriptures can both be true without causing any contradiction to either Gods character or the consistency of His word. Here are the two verses that I believe would be fair and perfectly in line with our discussion/debate.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

vs.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is the head of the corner.

***The question is.... How is faith a gift and at the same time unbelief is equated with disobedience?***

Since I have already elaborated on my position on this whole topic, I find it only fair that you give your explanation for these verses that seem to contradict. After you explain ,then I will reply and we both can keep going back and forth till we both can agree on reasonable conclusions. This is how debates should go...right?...peacefully.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :
 
Hi Michael,
You stated "whoever hears has the opportunity to believe".

My friend in the Lord, all I have to say about that is "amen". I 100% completely agree.

The word(gospel message) will be preached to all nations before the end. It appears to me that the Word is not partial in any way.......therefore we ought not to make it appear that the Holy Spirit functions with partiality in mind. Praise God for that.

Here is truth you will find consistent throughout scripture----the Holy Spirit(Helper) bears witness where the Word of Truth is spoken, not the other way around. If a lie is spoken or there is wrong intent then Jesus Christ does not authorize the Holy Spirit to bear witness.

With love in Christ, Daniel
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I strongly felt that you would agree with that.

Can I put in tru cents on this? When I was saved I was shown a copy of the Four Spiritual Laws, which is put out by Teen Challenge, or somebody. At that time it stated inside, the scenario of compliance, or understainding, which was in the form of, fact, faith, and feeling. Now, God is all for feeling. I do not think that He intends for us to live dry, feel high, and still persevere for the crown. But this chain of cause and effect starts with fact! That is the bottom line. Fact is fact. It is so because His word says so. Because the fact happens to be, then faith, which is comfort in the fact, follows. Faith accompanies fact, and that leads to a wonderful feeling, but we do not base our faith on feeling. That is the gist of the fact, faith, feeling admonition, that it starts with fact. God’s word is fact.

What happens to us is that ‘we believe’. Not only, but we choose to believe, which is a deliberate act of the will. But that is our capacity. Thereafter, because we believe, faith can fill us. Faith can fill us because we believe in a fact. That is God’s design. That is God’s order. And that is our responsibility: We believe that we receive. If our heart is true, God honors it. (If we need help believing, we can ask. That in itself shows faith.)

Now, faith is of God! This verse verifies it: 2Ti 2:13 “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”

But if we believe not, we do not receive of Him, which is verified by this verse: 2Ti 2:12 “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”

We deny Him by unbelief.

Therefore it is demonstrated that faith is of God, “By grace are ye saved through faith, which is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,” because faith honors, or ‘fills’ belief, which is our only capacity - to believe, or not. Our belief (or the choosing thereof) is simply faith the size of a mustard seed. True faith, big faith, is God’s, which He gives us if we truly believe.

Mar 9:24 “And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

And we know that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. (Psa 111:10) The fear of God is to believe. Some will. Some won’t. But they have to be drawn of the Spirit, or nothing will happen. Joh 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. “

Predestination is a mystery!

So, faith is a gift. You have it because He gives it to you (present tense). But if you do not believe, then you are rebellious! You reject the free gift, which is woeful, because it is a ‘fact’.





i LOVE JESUS!
 

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Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by CWO4GUNNER:
It never ceases to amaze me how foolish we can be when we take one line of scripture to build an entire religious theology in our own minds to affect the masses. From one verse (“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.") you imagine doctrine to fulfill the lust and envy of your own harts as being worth more then many others who according to you are chosen for destruction. Must make you feel pretty proud and I'm sure you will convince quite a few lofty harts, but do you think God will buy it? Will you proudly accept eternal damnation because in spite of your sincere conviction of being singled out if God informs you that by the very verse you were sincerely mistaken and are not chosen. Will you so proudly accept your own dogma and proudly walk the fires of hell.

I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow. "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'Luke 19:21-23

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

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quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,

First of all the distinction that I am showing you is that "cannot believe" implies that one is not capable of doing, or has an insufficient capacity to function in a certain way, but on the other hand, "will not believe" indicates a deliberate refusal to put oneself in subjection to. There certainly is a big difference.

Lets cut to the chase now. You like to camp around this verse(no question about it).....

Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

I highlighted your favorite part. I perceive you are confident in what you believe and in how you perceive it to be true. You seem to be a fairly patient person willing to work through things in a cibil manner. Lets work together on this then. I believe that we must adress this issue using the most reliable way......comparing scripture to scripture. I will present the scriptures and politely ask if you would start off the discussion by providing an explanation on how the two "seemingly" opposing scriptures can both be true without causing any contradiction to either Gods character or the consistency of His word. Here are the two verses that I believe would be fair and perfectly in line with our discussion/debate.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

vs.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is the head of the corner.

***The question is.... How is faith a gift and at the same time unbelief is equated with disobedience?***

Since I have already elaborated on my position on this whole topic, I find it only fair that you give your explanation for these verses that seem to contradict. After you explain ,then I will reply and we both can keep going back and forth till we both can agree on reasonable conclusions. This is how debates should go...right?...peacefully.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,

First of all the distinction that I am showing you is that "cannot believe" implies that one is not capable of doing, or has an insufficient capacity to function in a certain way, but on the other hand, "will not believe" indicates a deliberate refusal to put oneself in subjection to. There certainly is a big difference.

Lets cut to the chase now. You like to camp around this verse(no question about it).....

Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

I highlighted your favorite part. I perceive you are confident in what you believe and in how you perceive it to be true. You seem to be a fairly patient person willing to work through things in a cibil manner. Lets work together on this then. I believe that we must adress this issue using the most reliable way......comparing scripture to scripture. I will present the scriptures and politely ask if you would start off the discussion by providing an explanation on how the two "seemingly" opposing scriptures can both be true without causing any contradiction to either Gods character or the consistency of His word. Here are the two verses that I believe would be fair and perfectly in line with our discussion/debate.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

vs.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is the head of the corner.

***The question is.... How is faith a gift and at the same time unbelief is equated with disobedience?***

Since I have already elaborated on my position on this whole topic, I find it only fair that you give your explanation for these verses that seem to contradict. After you explain ,then I will reply and we both can keep going back and forth till we both can agree on reasonable conclusions. This is how debates should go...right?...peacefully.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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quote:

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I find it confusing to deal with a long Post, so I selected this line to respond to:

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quote:

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Originally posted by waynemlj:

quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,
It appears that we do agree that an individual does not helplessly reject the gospel. But I am a little confused then. According to you, the elect repent and believe because the Holy Spirit decided to regenerate them. Does'nt that leave all the rest that the Holy Spirit decided not to regenerate in a "helpless" state unable to repent and believe? So what is the difference between helpless and unable to repent/believe and "helplessly rejecting then?"

I would like if you would consider this verse. John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which SHALL believe on me through their word;

It appears that the word "shall", when used by Jesus could easily be translated "will".

Let me show you a few more examples throughout scripture.

Rev. 8:16-17 They shall (will) hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall (will) the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall (will) feed them, and shall(will) lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall (will) wipe away all tears from their eyes.

A translation of must, can, could, should,or would, would not suffice in the above. I could find many more examples where "will" would be a suitable translatation for "shall". Anyways, to get to the point that I am going to try and make..........

Jesus does not say "but for them also which can believe on me through their word", He says...."but for them also which shall (will) believe on me through their word. The word believe in this verse is an action verb.

Its not that men cannot believe, its that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Hi Daniel,

Especially these words of yours in your reply above I direct my response to:

"It's not that men cannot believe, it's that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later."

They are the same, if you think about it a little more. Whoever God does not give the gift of faith to Cannot believe and, therefore, Will not believe. Can you see that?

You have not made a distinction
that has anything in it that will change their eternal destiny.

If you just look at it logically like this, the point to be made is easy to see:

Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Now put in the circle a few dots to represent all those who are NOT given the gift of faith.

How many of those in that circle will come to believe in Christ as Savior?

None, right? Does it matter whether we say Cannot or Will not? Aren't they still in the same group?

waynemlj

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Can a individual resit "Grace"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by waynemlj:
Hi Daniel,

According to your reply, I understood that you realize that you did not choose God, but that He chose you.

He gave you the gift of faith to believe the words of Jesus regarding the Gospel of Salvation.

I certainly agree with that truth.

I wonder, though, why you replied to this topic, since you didn't really discuss it.

waynemlj

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
These cults that you mention all have one thing in common, works. Whether it is going around knocking on doors or attending the mass, their basic premise is works. This is not to discount the value of works, only to point out that the cults trust not in the finished work of Christ but on something that we can supposedly do for ourselves.

As far as the Scripture verses that you give, they are very good. But if you have given them as a rebuttal for Calvinism I can hardly see how these would qualify, (maybe there will be some further enlightenment). It should hardly come as any surprise that Calvinism and Armenianism coexist. Can you imagine a time when we humans were not given an opportunity to make a wrong choice? Counterfeiting is the oldest trick in the devil’s play book. Our job is to figure out which is which. And our responsibility is to follow the genuine, no matter what.

Did you know that there is only one elect? We can take a copy of the old King James Bible and look it up if you would like.

fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi fast foward,
Its nice to meet you. Im not all that versed on the differences between calvinism and arminanism, but I will tell you the difference that I see that seems drastic. Correct me if I am wrong, but does'nt calvinism teach that a man is born again and then he is is able to repent and believe?

So if I were a calvinist and I was witnessing to an unbeliever, I would'nt tell them what the apostles told the men who asked "What must I do to be saved?"...that is..... "Repent, be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"......I am assuming as a calvinist that I would need to tell them that they need to be born again.....but then I would have to tell them about the fine print at the bottom that says it is only possible if God chooses you to be born again.

I guess I have to say if being an arminian means to preach what the bible teaches about what we need to do in order to be saved, I lean more towards arminian. Repent, be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Daniel.

Calvinist think they are the only ones that can be saved. For some reason they think they are chosen and others are just here to go to hell. Which in turn will make them believe they are better then other people. This just does not fit in with the context of the entire bible. My bible says Jesus died for all. I do not believe that Limited Atonement is correct. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if ANY man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world. ~ 1 John 2:1-2 (KJV) Notice: (ANY and WHOLE)

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. ~ John 1:29 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ~ John 3:16 (KJV) Notice: (WHOSOEVER)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time. ~ 1 Timothy 2:5-6 (KJV) Notice: (ALL)

Question: "What is Calvinism and is it Biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?"

Answer: The five points of Calvinism can be summarized with the letters TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs. Total Depravity = as a result of Adam’s fall the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12).

Limited Atonement = Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25). Irresistible Grace = Those whom God elected and Christ died for, God draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37,44; 10:16). Perseverance of the Saints = The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

I believe that Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints are Biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – it is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. However, I do not believe that Limited Atonement is correct. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6.




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Posted by fastforward (Member # 7073) on :
 
David Campbell,
Excuse me but you never read anywhere that I confess Calvinism. Maybe you are not used to someone discussing a topic without bringing their own personal agenda to the table. You brought up the subject not me. I was just considering it.

Usually, (but not always) people who become suddenly defensive are fearful of something. I don’t really care if we discuss Calvinism or not. But I will say that oneInChrist has ask me something about it. May I address that? And if your answer is yea then you let me know how far oneInChrist and I can go.

fastforward
 

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Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :
 
You sound like you are sure teaching calvinism to me.

No I am not fearful. I don't like false preachers or teachers and yes I will say something about it.

If you intend to teach calvinism on this message board then no I would not suggest it.

To teach that Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world but just for some is just plain wrong.

If you want to give your views then you are welcome to take it to the

www.religion-debate.com

board where you can post your view and debat them.

I will be glad to debat there also.

You can see what I think about it by going to:

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005455

I just posted there.

By the way are you going to answer my questions?

A question for you. Are you one of the elect?

Do you believe everyone has a choice or we are just preprogrammed robots?

Or do you believe the choice of who will go to heaven or who will not go to heaven has already been made in advance?


Thanks,
David


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Posted by fastforward (Member # 7073) on :
 
David Campbell,
It sounds like I am teaching Calvinism because I asked you a couple of questions?

Now that is psychology in action! They have done studies where you play this word game by leaving certain letters out or even whole words out of sentences. And there is a group of people who automatically fill in the blank spaces. How is this group able to fill in the missing info? Whether the info that they fill in is correct or not does not matter, just that they have acted I find interesting.

I am not a psychology major or anything but I think they call this programming.

Let me tell you what I found interesting enough about your posting that led me to respond to it. It was not Calvinism or Armenianism per say. It was this-

“Teaching that we have nothing to do with our salvation such as making the choice to follow Jesus reminds me of Mormonism, Catholicism, Jehovah Witnesses, & the other Cults these teachings reduce Gods plan for our Salvation. Turning us to a mere program or cold mechanism, drawing us away from a relationship with a loving God. This also causes people to have an atmosphere of superiority about them. Their unspoken message is, “We are better than you and God loves us more, because he chose us to give us special Revelation which is true Salvation” I sure don’t think this could be from the God of the Bible. Who is love, where Jesus said He died for our sins. He did not say he died for some peoples sins, but for all.”

When in reality what these “cults” you speak of have in common and are totally dependent on is “works”. They have “works” salvation. And when that is pointed out it seems to bother you doesn’t it.

Your questions will be answered even though they seem a bit litmus-ee. Oh by the way do all new comers receive such warm welcomes?

fastforward
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 

quote:

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Correct me if I am wrong....I assume that you see man as automatically sanctified by the "gift of faith". I, on the other hand see man as sanctified both by the holy spirit of God and through obedience to His word.

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quote:

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Unconditional Election = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12).

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I agree Michael that is the correct answer but "once Saved Always " damnable doctrine teaches different.

any comment waynemlj

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
Your questions will be answered even though they seem a bit litmus-ee. Oh by the way do all new comers receive such warm welcomes?

fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
Let’s see. And what question should I answer first? Mmmmmm.

Oh, I know, the silly one first-

That Calvinists or anyone else on the planet for that matter would think that people are preprogrammed robots. What serious, fair-minded person, persons, organizations or systems of thought teach that people are preprogrammed robots? If you want to be a debater, you are going to have to do better.

Could you give me any names of people; it doesn’t have to even be Calvinists, (in order to make it easier for you) that teach such of a thing.

fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by David Campbell:

quote:

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Originally posted by waynemlj:
Hi Daniel,

According to your reply, I understood that you realize that you did not choose God, but that He chose you.

He gave you the gift of faith to believe the words of Jesus regarding the Gospel of Salvation.

I certainly agree with that truth.

I wonder, though, why you replied to this topic, since you didn't really discuss it.

waynemlj

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waynemlj,

I guess what you are saying waynemlj is you are a calvinist and you believe in limited grace (only for the Elect) and we believe in
Armenianism- teaches temporary grace (for all for now), And there is an end to grace

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not
Romans 10:17 Faith comes from hearing God’s message
James 1:18 We are made his children by his word
1 Timothy 5:12 Some cast off their faith
1 Timothy 4:1 Some turn from their faith
2 Timothy 2:18 Some have their faith overthrown by others
Romans 10:9-10 With heart believes unto righteousness; with mouth confession is made unto salvation
1 John 1:9 If we repent he is just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness
Luke 24:47 Repentance & Remission of sins is the message of the Gospel
Deuteronomy 30:15-19 God gives us a choice between life and death
Joshua 24:15 We choose who to serve
Romans 2:4(b) not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Romans 6:16 Choosing sin leads to death, choosing God leads life
Proverbs 1:29 Some hate wisdom and choose not to fear God
Ezekiel 18:4 & 19-20 God says the one who does right shall live, and the one who sins shall die
Ezekiel 18:25 & 29 God is not unfair about this
Ezekiel 18:17, 21-22, & 27 Those that turn from sin will live
Hebrews 9:11-12 By his blood our salvation is secured in heaven and nothing else, it was a more perfect sacrifice
Mark 13:13(b) but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved
Luke 6:46 And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say
Luke 13:3, 5 Except you repent ye shall likewise perish
John 5:29 Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgement
John 15:6-7 Jesus says that those who stay in him will inherit and those who don’t will be thrown into the fire
Romans 2:7-9 He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality
2 Corinthians 7:10 God uses sorrow to turn us back to him by repentance, but sorrow without repentance still leads to death
2 Corinthians 11:2-4 I fear somehow you will be led away just as Eve was
Philippians 2:12-16 Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling, that I may have not laboured in vain
Colossians 2:6-7 As you accepted Christ you must continue to live in obedience to him letting him change you
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 God called us to holiness, if you despise this then your rejecting God
1 Timothy 4:1 Some shall depart from the Faith, and now follow demons and doctrine of Devils
Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape judgement if we neglect such a great salvation
Hebrews 3:12-13 Make sure that your hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning away from the Living God, warn everyone so that no ones is deceived by sin and their heart is hardened against God
Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore repentance to those who knew the truth then rejected it, recrucifying Christ to the Cross
Hebrews 10:26-27 If we willfully sin after receiving the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins
Hebrews 12:17 Esau lost what could have been his, he cried bitterly for it, but it was too late for repentance
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2 Peter 2:20-21 For someone who was saved then returns to the world, it would have been better to not have responded the first time
2 Peter 3:15-18 Don’t misunderstand the Grace Paul preached about, I don’t want you to lose your secure footing
1 John 3:7-9 You must do what is right if you have God in you, if you continue in sin you belong to the devil
Jude 4-7 False teachers say with Grace you can continue in sin, but let me warn you God didn’t spare the Angels already with him
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white rainment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life
Exodus 32:33 Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book
Psalms 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous

Teaching that we have nothing to do with our salvation such as making the choice to follow Jesus reminds me of Mormonism, Catholicism, Jehovah Witnesses, & the other Cults these teachings reduce Gods plan for our Salvation. Turning us to a mere program or cold mechanism, drawing us away from a relationship with a loving God. This also causes people to have an atmosphere of superiority about them. Their unspoken message is, “We are better than you and God loves us more, because he chose us to give us special Revelation which is true Salvation” I sure don’t think this could be from the God of the Bible. Who is love, where Jesus said He died for our sins. He did not say he died for some peoples sins, but for all.

I do believe in predestination. Jesus Christ died for all making us all predestined for salvation. But if we do not take the free gift of salvation, then we change our destiny by rejecting the only one (Jesus Christ) that died so ALL can live.


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quote:

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Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Unrepentant hearts and unbelief are both more linked with our own rebellion and disobedience than anything else. If we were to say that repentance and faith are 100% hand-outs, then we would have to at least associate God with the cause for the sin of unbelief and rebellion of the lost, because God left them that way. That I am not willing to do.

Waynem, I respect your position, but do not agree with it. You hold to a particular theology that takes a small number of scriptures to back it up. Though I cannot dispute the scriptures you use, I can dispute the way that you view them and try to make a case. If I am accused of not believing in predestination, that is a false accusation. I believe in it.....but I question how some perceive it. To go as far as to say that man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation I strongly oppose. I will also continue to believe that faith involves consent of the will otherwise we are just left with a mental assent to bible facts with no intent on acting on them.

For most of my life I was a believer, ever since I was a young child I was taught the 10 Commandments and all the fun bible stories up to Jesus. I believed in God. But it was'nt until 1995 that a bible believing man came into my life and I found myself to be a hypocrite. God's will for my life was not my concern and I had a passive attitude towards sin. I was in rebellion. I had never repented so I was an unrepentant believer......sounds like an oxymoron, but it is'nt. My believing was hypocritical because I had never come to God in sincere repentance for my rebellion to him. I was lost and never even had the spirit of God. By Gods grace He was patient and waited for me to realize that I was still in my sin and that I needed to repent. I thank him for bringing that bible-believing man into my life to help show me my real status. I was left with a decision to make: Repent, turn from my sin and position of rebellion to God and turn to God and His will for my life or just continue on living my same old life. To make a long story short I ended up repenting and then going to be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus and sometime afterwards the Holy Spirit began to be a more identifiable part of my life.

In conclusion, I see God as providing the way and waiting on a satisfactory response from us. When He is satisfied with our response then the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and helps us to transform into Christ-likeness. Then we would become born-again....not born-again first and then repentance and faith towards Christ.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
The truth? We could just as easily discuss the “truth” of Armenianism-

The truth is that when some of us discuss Calvinism, immediately it is taken to the extreme (example-“preprogrammed robots”). So in all fairness we should be able to take Armenianism to the extreme for just a moment.

Taken to the extreme Armenianism becomes works based salvation which is no salvation.

(Am I sensing a little hair tingling on the backs of some of the readers after this last?)

fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Yahweh gives me the power to make a choice without a doubt this is a true statement...

but if then I am not at liberty to make a free will decision of acceptance or rejection of Salvation through the Atonement of Yeshua's Blood then Yahweh is just a tyrant forcing those He choices to become His robots.

Yahweh only desires those that choose to accept His gift because of love because He loved first and they want to obey His commands and live by His precepts because they love Him.

no duty or legal requirements just a free choice to love Him , love Him for all He has done.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
Amen Carol, Father is reconciling all, meaning everyone, to Himself through Christ. Which is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are both in error. They both teach an eternal damnation or Hell.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
waynemlj,
This type of argument here really doesn’t make sense to me. You don’t think that those you address are well versed on this subject, (at least they think they are)? I guarantee you that there has been a lot of practice bringing canned answers to the ready here at this site, (this is the reason for the impatience shown for this subject).

I am going to take a chance and look at your post for a moment, (even though we are treading on thin ice).

Will you agree that both systems are not without their respective problems?

fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
I used to believe eternal hell was fact too David. I won't argue about it but I challenge you to study it out for yourself referencing back to the original Greek text and not English translations. study the wGreek word aion and aionios. You might be surprised.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
really didn't suspect you would act like Jonah or the prodigal's brother but tis your forum and your rules and your facts. Good bye

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Good bye.



.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
jiggyfly...

quote:

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Originally posted by jiggyfly:
Amen Carol, Father is reconciling all, meaning everyone, to Himself through Christ. Which is why both Calvinism and Arminianism are both in error. They both teach an eternal damnation or Hell.

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quote:

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Hi Michael,

In your honest opinion, would you say that I have a speech impediment?

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Dear Carol Swenson, it is hard to tell from typed answers whether you have a speech impediment.

But if you do have a speech impediment, I don't see how a speech impediment could prevent your fingers from typing to the LORD, that you should not be like Moses by the burning bush?

Hello, typing is a God-sent for someone who has a speech impediment, isn't it?

love, eden

"and every knee shall bow to Him, including the knees of Christians", but if we kneel before Him now, then we will know how to kneel before Him then"
 

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Posted by waynemlj (Member # 7041) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
waynemlj,
This type of argument here really doesn’t make sense to me. You don’t think that those you address are well versed on this subject, (at least they think they are)? I guarantee you that there has been a lot of practice bringing canned answers to the ready here at this site, (this is the reason for the impatience shown for this subject).

I am going to take a chance and look at your post for a moment, (even though we are treading on thin ice).

Will you agree that both systems are not without their respective problems?

fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
I would be glad to answer your question if you quit with the threats. But if not then what would be the use?

fastforward

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>>> Are you one of the elect? <<<


Yes or No


.
 

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Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :
 
This debate thing is not a new problem here. That is why I put up the following message board. If you don't like the rules here you can go that and debate anything as long as it is not X rated.

www.christianity-debate.com
or
www.religion-debate.com

If you are offended easy don't go there.

There are few rules and it is open to everyone.

NOTE: You will have to sign up again as it is separate from this message board.

Thanks,
David
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I never meant to ignore the christianity-debate site, but somehow i ended up doing so. I don't remember if i know who i am over there, not to mention my password?

That'ud be a good place to debate that C al dude! Maybe there could be a dedicated forum to that very subject? I dunno! Thanks and God Bless!

By the way, i panicked this morning when I tried to get on and it said that advanced member #7401, which is not my number, didn't exist. Thought i had been booted, praise God.

Oh, and thanks for the great bbs site!
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
I went to the race track here in Charlotte once for the big event. Everybody was chanting "Anybody but Waltrip." Darryl Waltrip was doing well, and actually won it. When he was in the winner's circle where the podium was, he took the microphone, and in anger stated, "Alright! I'll meet every one of you in the parking lot!" He wasn't happy about what everybody was saying. Well, I'll meet every one of you at christianity-debate forum!
 

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Posted by fastforward (Member # 7073) on :
 
David Campbell,
I won’t answer your question under direst. If you will stop your threats then I will answer. I said before that I don’t care if we discuss this subject or not. I am not pursuing this subject. But I am willing to discuss it with anyone in fairness.

fastforward
 

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Posted by fastforward (Member # 7073) on :
 
waynemlj,
It seems like you are giving standard arguments. Then the other side will respond in kind.

As to my direct question-
Will you agree that both sides of the debate have difficulties yet to overcome?

fastforward
 

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Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
I won’t answer your question under direst. If you will stop your threats then I will answer. I said before that I don’t care if we discuss this subject or not. I am not pursuing this subject. But I am willing to discuss it with anyone in fairness.

fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
waynemlj,
It seems like you are giving standard arguments. Then the other side will respond in kind.

As to my direct question-
Will you agree that both sides of the debate have difficulties yet to overcome?

fastforward

---

waynemlj is no longer on this message board.

See:

http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005465;p=1#000003


.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Yes David, but even better!

Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

That is far from robotic. (Can i say that? You seem a little antsey.)
 

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Posted by fastforward (Member # 7073) on :
 
David Campbell,
It is true that you have had no luck getting someone to answer your important question. OK you have made no threats. And you and I will no longer be discussing Calvin/Arminius. Thanks so much David Campbell.

fastforward

For those Calvinist left I give you this advice-

“If you’re going to tell people the truth you’d better make them laugh; otherwise they’ll kill you.”
George Bernard Shaw

Disclaimer: In order to keep from being misunderstood, the above quote is just a bit of irony, (not intended for theological use).
 

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Posted by CWO4GUNNER (Member # 6971) on :
 
Christ showed great compassion and preached the good news to almost everyone he encountered when he was on earth, to the lost, tax collectors, wine drinkers, fornicators, adulterers , prostitutes, the sick, the old, the insane, and even the dead. But he had no compassion on those professing to know the truth, and rather teaching the doctrines of men and their father the devil. In fact the scriptures show us Christ, John the baptist and Paul were belligerent and sarcastic toward those who spread lies about Gods word and desperately go around the church trying to collect the souls of the lost and weak.
If the saints were here today, and of course in God's due time they will be, they would make short work of them all because they are worse then the lost. Professing the lies of Calvinism they slink around the body of Christ seeking out where they can inflict wounds by peddling the same type of twisted scripture Satan offered in the Garden, who unwittingly is their adopted father. If there is anyone predestined for destruction these are surly at the top of Gods list.
Oh by the Holy Spirit that stirs within me over this issue, I pray that God will bring upon their heads starting today the measure of the plagues written in the word of God for teaching seductive lies to the lost and snatching the truth from the harts of new believers(their quest). Most Holy God I pray for the sake of those who have been drawn here by the Holy Spirit from all corners of the world to fellowship in this place with you in truth and in spirit. I pray Oh God that this heresy preached so shamelessly with blatant disregard for the truth of "The Way" and in preparation for the Antichrist, I pray that all of this evil be be pushed back from this place so that those that know you and bear living fruit of the spirit may fellowship in this place in peace and in truth Amen.

"I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God." Revelation 2: 2-7

Idiomatic rendering of the Original Greek Texts
He who is overcoming -- "this one" -- shall be arrayed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the scroll of the life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before His messengers. revelations 3:5

Without authority, I merely quote you Christian message board rule #1
"We do not promote the prosperity gospel preachers on this message board. You may not teach any false gospel. There will be no warning from here on, you will just be removed from this message board. This is not debatable."
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
For the baseball fans, what is Calvinism ?
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
I found ths on the web.

What is Calvinism and is it Biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?

five points of Calvinism


Question: "What is Calvinism and is it Biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?"

Answer: The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs.

Total Depravity - as a result of Adam’s fall the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected and Christ died for, God draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37,44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them. So-called “four point Calvinists” accept Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints as biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – it is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. As for Limited Atonement, however, four-point Calvinists believe that atonement in unlimited, arguing that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Peter 2:1.

The five-point Calvinists, however, see problems with four-point Calvinism. First, they argue, if Total Depravity is true, then Limited Atonement cannot possibly be true because if Jesus died for the sins of every person, then whether or not His death is applicable to an individual depends on whether or not that person “accepts” Christ. But as we have seen from the above description of Total Depravity, man in his natural state has no capacity whatsoever to choose God, nor does he want to. In addition, if Unlimited Atonement is true, then hell is full of people for whom Christ died and He shed His blood in vain for them. To the five-point Calvinist, this is unthinkable. Please note - this article is only a brief summary of the five points of Calvinism.

http://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
 

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Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :
 
According to Calvin: God has predestined to save a certain group of people; these are called God's Elect. God's sovereign will for His elect cannot be resisted or thwarted as His irresistible grace ensures that all of them will willingly accept Jesus Christ, at some point in their lives before they die. The Non-Elect cannot come to Christ because natural fallen man is totally sinful and depraved. Salvation is entirely the work of God from start to finish. All believers (the Elect) will go to heaven, but all unbelievers (the Non-Elect) will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (hell), where they will be tortured forever.


.
 

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Posted by fastforward (Member # 7073) on :
 
WildB,
Thanks for the website.
There is also a guy named Jacob Arminius that you may find interesting. Arminius developed a system of Christian thought on the same order as Calvin but the two systems are sort of “anti” each other. As a matter of fact most of Protestantism can be divided using the two respective systems. Partly that is because these two men were much involved in the early reformation movement. Surprisingly not much has changed since these two systems crystallized. If I were going to make a guess, I would say that this site would not fall under the Calvin banner.

I do have a question for you WildB. That is if you have the time and would like to converse with me for a while. In another thread you were saying something about “once sealed” or something like that, (forgive my memory). I did not understand what you were getting at. Do you remember and are you willing to repeat here at this thread.

Thanks WildB, sorry to bother you,
fastforward
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Once SEALED, SEALED until the day of REDEMTION.
(Eph.4[30])
 

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Posted by David Campbell (Member # 1) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
WildB,
If I were going to make a guess, I would say that this site would not fall under the Calvin banner. fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by CHEWY:
David-

I will bite. Yes I am one of God's elect.

Chewy-

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quote:

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Originally posted by David Campbell:

I would like to know how do you know you are one of the chosen ones?

Just wondering how Calvinist know they are special and better then the people made to go to hell with out a chance.

Thanks,
David

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Hi David,

I will give you a Bible reference that those of us who believe in election sometimes quote.

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

If you have the Son you are chosen and elected Calvinist whither you are aware of it or not.

God bless.
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 
This whole thing is confusing me to no end. I came across this today:


Concise Theology: A Guide To Historic Christian Beliefs

What we do know is, first, that had we not been chosen for life we would not be believers now ( for only the elect are brought to faith ), and, second, that as elect believers we may rely on God to finish in us the good work that he started (1 Cor. 1:8-9; Phil. 1:6; 1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18). Knowledge of one’s election thus brings comfort and joy.

Peter tells us we should be “eager to make [our] calling and election sure” (2 Pet. 1:10)—that is, certain to us. Election is known by its fruits . Paul knew the election of the Thessalonians from their faith, hope, and love, the inward and outward transformation of their lives that the gospel had brought about (1 Thess. 1:3-6). The more that the qualities to which Peter has been exhorting his readers appear in our lives (goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love: 2 Pet. 1:5-7), the surer of our own election we are entitled to be.

I do not believe in the appalling idea that God created a world full of people who are condemned to an eternity in hell with no choice and no chance to belong to Christ.

But aside from that horrible thought, where is the difference between an elect and a believer? We say that God has chosen the elect, but a believer chooses God. Yet we know that a sinner will not choose God unless the Holy Spirit prompts him in some way.
 

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Posted by Bloodbought (Member # 4365) on :
 
Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Meaning of the word strive
75 avgwni,zomai agonizomai {ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee}
Meaning: 1) to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games 2) to contend with adversaries, fight 3) metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers 4) to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something
Origin: from 73; TDNT - 1:135,20; v
Usage: AV - strive 3, fight 3, labour fervently 1; 7

This man shouldn’t have been concerned about how many would be saved and what will the many do who are not able to enter.

He should have been striving with the question, what must I do to be saved?

He could have received the following answer.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
 

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Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :
 

quote:

---

He should have been striving with the question, what must I do to be saved?

He could have received the following answer.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31

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quote:

---

Perhaps election is true? Perhaps however, we do not understand what we think we understand when we read what we read.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bloodbought:
I think there is some misunderstanding among non-Calvinists concerning Calvinistic doctrine.

Calvinism does not teach that those who are saved can point the finger at those who are not saved and say they are not elect.

A Calvinist evangelist was once asked. “Why preach to those who are not elect, why don’t you preach to the elect only?” The evangelist replied. “You put a label on the elect and I will preach to them only.” No one knows who the elect are among the unsaved, so the evangelist must preach to all men equally. Only the elect will respond by the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The non-elect will not understand.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fastforward:
WildB,
Thanks.
If you cared to look at my little profile here at this site you will see trucking listed. In the good old U.S. of A. we ship more goods by truck than any other country in the world. And on the backs of all those truck trailers are placed these seals. Only authorized personnel can legally break the seals and only when they reach their destination, (excepting upon some sort of catastrophe and even then it is still only authorized personnel just a different set).

It was good talking to you WildB,
Fastforward

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quote:

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Originally posted by CHEWY:
David-

I know that you would rather see this thread fade away. Sorry for reopening it.

Chewy-

---

No I don’t want this thread to fade away as I am very interested in what people believe and why.

It is very interesting to me that seemingly good Godly people that have Godly fruit bearing lives and are really out to tell people about the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ, see what the bible says and means in such a different light.

It is very puzzling to me.

First of all I want to state that I believe in God’s Supreme Sovereignty. God is God and can do what ever He wants and He does just that. This is to include giving men freewill on certain decisions if He chooses to do so. If He wants, yes he can create people to be like robots. If He wants, He can if He so chooses to do so, create people to go to hell. But that don’t mean I believe He does.

When reading the T.U.L.I.P.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

I do agree with 3 of these, not necessarily the way Calvin sees it but the way I understand it when asking the Holy Spirit to show me what He wants me to know.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

The Holy Spirit is the one that has taught me as I would have never came know Jesus Christ by listening to men as they seem to have ulterior motives. I have learned that the Holy Spirit never tries to play games but is gently leading us toward knowing Jesus Christ the Son of God. And in seeking to know more about why this topic seems to split very Godly men and women apart. I want to know what people think and why we can not get on the same page. Because I know I love and follow Jesus Christ and I am certain that people on both sides of this issue love and follow the Lord. So if anyone else is interested and some what puzzled about this, lets discuss it in a friendly way. 


The below I agree with to a certain point, but not the way Calvin teaches it:
Unconditional Election
Irresistible Grace


I really like to read Charles Spurgeon’s writing. When I was told he was a Calvinist I started looking into it. I do agree with his below statement.


Many like to claim Spurgeon as a staunch Calvinist, all the way through, but listen to what he said concerning free-will, and I quote: “I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.” Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that “it is not of him that willeth, or of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.”

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

First I would like to know if you agree with Charles Spurgeon’s above statement?

Also this has become such an intriguing subject to me that I would like to open up several topics and look into them together. (Just discussing it not arguing)

One on Irresistible Grace and another on Unconditional Election.

I will open them today. Everyone please join us and lets talk about this subject in a kind and Christ like way.


.
 

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Posted by CHEWY (Member # 6970) on :
 
David-

"First I would like to know if you agree with Charles Spurgeon’s above statement?"

I do agree with Spurgeon very much. As I have also posted recently on another topic, I believe that man has fallen into the trap of an either/or mentality. [Either the responsibility of man exists or the sovreignty of God exists] I choose both. The Scriptures plainly teach both and therefore I don't have to "choose" one or the other, I am to accept both.

For example: I have seen my wife stand at the closet and "choose" what she will wear. After donning several different garments, maybe even a dozen different ones, she will conclude with let's say the blue oufit. Yet from the omniscience of God, she had no choice but to wear the one God knew she would end up wearing.

This is something that nearly sent Martin Luther to the "madhouse." Yet he too came to the conclusion that this is something we have to accept and forget trying to understand.

I don't adhere to the teaching of Armenianism but I strongly disagree with the Calvinism that says there is no need to evangelize, pray, etc. as it is all foreordained. This is a dangerous teaching.

Have you ever considered that evangelism has two sides? On one side we have the person spreading the Gospel to an unbelieving world and someone receives the Gospel and is saved. On the other hand, we have the Gospel being presented with no response and the unbeliever continues to live in an unsaved state. Praise God for those occassions where the lost one is found. Yet there is a purpose for the evangelism of those who do not receive. Those who reject the Gospel one day will stand at the Great White Throne Judgment and there life will be judged. When the image of those who reject the Gospel is recalled to their memory they will find themselves in a situation where that "Every knee shall bow." Sadly, it will be too late.

Thanks David for hosting this site, where that we can share our thoughts and beliefs.

Chewy-
 

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Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :
 
The relationship between Calvinism and Arminianism in respect to the teachings of various individuals in the Bible (including Moses, Jesus, and Paul) is certainly challenging and somewhat confusing. We can get caught into repeating numerous historic discussions and citing various scriptural texts to "prove" our selected conclusions regarding this matter. I don't choose to do this.

It might help to recognize and to clearly affirm the basic truth of scriptural teaching that God's sovereign authority and power makes him the ultimate agent for salvation, which includes the redemption of all of his creation. This means that God's will governs the process of salvation for everyone and that no one, particularly any sinning rebels, have any right or authority to claim any exemption to his will or pride in their claim to his willful blessings.

Various texts of Scripture give us some clues as to what God considers to be basically important in his work of salvation, but it is the commission and the calling of God's children to reflect his glory, to witness to his grace and love in Jesus Christ, and to be faithful in their stewardship of all the resources and gifts that he has given to them, including his gift of faith and the forgiveness of their sins. All of us, all humanity, is going to stand before God and his authorized judge, Jesus, and there will be no human explanation for any of us to justify ourselves before them!

We would do well to stop this discussion and debate and proclaim and teach and interpret the "good news" of Jesus, who died and rose from the dead to make salvation possible. This is the commission that God and Jesus has given to his disciples, including those of us whom he has called to be his "children", his "apostles" (sent ones) in the world. I would like to see more "good news" in this forum, and less debates that probably only confuse and distract and probably offend many non-believing viewers.

Rather than dealing with questions regarding "election" and "free will", let us give more attention to what Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God is doing day by day in our lives; what is Jesus doing in your life today? That is a far more important question to be discussing than any that have to with "election" and "free will". Amen.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Even Paul considered himself not to have attained. Attained what? Resurrection from the dead. This means simply that it wasn't over until it was over, and he was in heaven, knowing that he was on the right side of judgment. Even the doctrine of election, strong as it is, is not strong enough to nullify this attitude of Paul's. Else he could have taken it for granted and said that he was elected, and he was in good with his maker, and didn't have to attain to, or apprehend that for which he was apprehended, which was final closure concerning eternal life.
 

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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :
 
Phil.3

[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
[16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

[17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 

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Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :
 
Salvation is by God's sovereing election to the extent that God and Jesus chose the method of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and raising from the dead on the third day" as the method whereby people would be saved.

God and Jesus must have clearly understood that by choosing the above method whereby people could be saved, would automatically exclude a large segment of humanity, just as the method chosen would automatically include a minority segment of humanity.

The very method chosen by them limited who on earth would be able to choose that, and in that manner it appears to have become "election":

Exodus 33:19
And He said {to Moses}, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.

Romans 9:15
For He said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 9:18
17 For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.

19 You will say then to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?

But it was the method that God and Jesus decided on and chose, whereby men could be saved, that predetermined who would be able to accept the method.

God and Jesus knew exactly who in history would be able to accept such a proposition or method, and who would not be able.

Therefore the method chosen itself made salvation "only by election of God and Jesus". But when we humans who in every generation are able to accept the method, it looks to us that we are "accepting" the method, but it is our prior generational make-up that decided that we "could" accept the method in the first place.

It "looks" like choosing to us, but it really isn't.

with love, eden
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Have ye 'this' faith?

[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

I follow after that I may lay hold of what is also His desire to lay hold of me for, in mutual interest.

[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
 

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :
 
Israel was a chosen nation of people. Others who were outside of Israel appear chosen for wrath. Yet, some outside of Israel feared the God of Israel, and benefited with her. Rahab the Harlot comes to mind. There were others. All men are able to fear God. But the devil puts men under a whammy! The pressure brought to bear by the evil one by peer pressure, conformity and whatever, imprisons men. It is why we should pray, and be witnesses.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
(Acts 8:13 NIV) Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

He believed. I would say he was a believer, but look at what happens a little later:

(Acts 8:18-24 NIV) [18] When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money [19] and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

[20] Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! [21] You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. [22] Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. [23] For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."

[24] Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."

Look what Peter says: 'repent of this wickedness .... perhaps he (the Lord) will forgive you.'

Once Saved Always Saved teaches that all our sins 'past, present and future' are forgiven at the moment of salvation.

If so then this passage is meaningless. Simon seems to have taken what Peter said pretty seriously.

You can try to say that Simon was never a true believer, but if that is true, then why did the Holy Spirit have Luke include the verse about him believing and being baptized? No, I think we can be sure that he was a true believer, but that he was pulled away by his own evil desires and greed.

Why do we teach people that once they have placed faith in Yahshua nothing else matters? That their sins are already forgiven and nothing they do, or believe or fail to believe from that point on matters? We are risking sending people to hell for eternity because we don't bother to read the Bible and accept what it says at face value.
 

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Posted by CHEWY (Member # 6970) on :
 
And isn't it interesting that Peter said, "Perhaps" the Lord will forgive you?

Chewy-
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

quote:

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Chewy said....

And isn't it interesting that Peter said, "Perhaps" the Lord will forgive you?

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