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Topic: The Importance of Correct Theology
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Chewy said....
And isn't it interesting that Peter said, "Perhaps" the Lord will forgive you?
Can we grasp the importance of this statement...
think about it, this is Peter who was singled out by name by Yahshua after the resurrection...
if anyone understood forgiveness it was Peter...
but here Peter, under the direction of the Holy Spirit says to Simon Perhaps" the Lord will forgive you?
that passage should make us all very sober in our thinking....
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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CHEWY
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posted
And isn't it interesting that Peter said, "Perhaps" the Lord will forgive you?
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
(Acts 8:13 NIV) Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
He believed. I would say he was a believer, but look at what happens a little later:
(Acts 8:18-24 NIV) [18] When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money [19] and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
[20] Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! [21] You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. [22] Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. [23] For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
[24] Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."
Look what Peter says: 'repent of this wickedness .... perhaps he (the Lord) will forgive you.'
Once Saved Always Saved teaches that all our sins 'past, present and future' are forgiven at the moment of salvation.
If so then this passage is meaningless. Simon seems to have taken what Peter said pretty seriously.
You can try to say that Simon was never a true believer, but if that is true, then why did the Holy Spirit have Luke include the verse about him believing and being baptized? No, I think we can be sure that he was a true believer, but that he was pulled away by his own evil desires and greed.
Why do we teach people that once they have placed faith in Yahshua nothing else matters? That their sins are already forgiven and nothing they do, or believe or fail to believe from that point on matters? We are risking sending people to hell for eternity because we don't bother to read the Bible and accept what it says at face value.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Israel was a chosen nation of people. Others who were outside of Israel appear chosen for wrath. Yet, some outside of Israel feared the God of Israel, and benefited with her. Rahab the Harlot comes to mind. There were others. All men are able to fear God. But the devil puts men under a whammy! The pressure brought to bear by the evil one by peer pressure, conformity and whatever, imprisons men. It is why we should pray, and be witnesses.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) Have ye 'this' faith?
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
I follow after that I may lay hold of what is also His desire to lay hold of me for, in mutual interest.
[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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posted
Salvation is by God's sovereing election to the extent that God and Jesus chose the method of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and raising from the dead on the third day" as the method whereby people would be saved.
God and Jesus must have clearly understood that by choosing the above method whereby people could be saved, would automatically exclude a large segment of humanity, just as the method chosen would automatically include a minority segment of humanity.
The very method chosen by them limited who on earth would be able to choose that, and in that manner it appears to have become "election":
Exodus 33:19
And He said {to Moses}, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Romans 9:15
For He said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:18
17 For the scripture said to Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore has He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.
19 You will say then to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
But it was the method that God and Jesus decided on and chose, whereby men could be saved, that predetermined who would be able to accept the method.
God and Jesus knew exactly who in history would be able to accept such a proposition or method, and who would not be able.
Therefore the method chosen itself made salvation "only by election of God and Jesus". But when we humans who in every generation are able to accept the method, it looks to us that we are "accepting" the method, but it is our prior generational make-up that decided that we "could" accept the method in the first place.
It "looks" like choosing to us, but it really isn't.
with love, eden
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WildB
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posted
Phil.3
[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
[15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
[16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
[17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Even Paul considered himself not to have attained. Attained what? Resurrection from the dead. This means simply that it wasn't over until it was over, and he was in heaven, knowing that he was on the right side of judgment. Even the doctrine of election, strong as it is, is not strong enough to nullify this attitude of Paul's. Else he could have taken it for granted and said that he was elected, and he was in good with his maker, and didn't have to attain to, or apprehend that for which he was apprehended, which was final closure concerning eternal life.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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TB125
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posted
The relationship between Calvinism and Arminianism in respect to the teachings of various individuals in the Bible (including Moses, Jesus, and Paul) is certainly challenging and somewhat confusing. We can get caught into repeating numerous historic discussions and citing various scriptural texts to "prove" our selected conclusions regarding this matter. I don't choose to do this.
It might help to recognize and to clearly affirm the basic truth of scriptural teaching that God's sovereign authority and power makes him the ultimate agent for salvation, which includes the redemption of all of his creation. This means that God's will governs the process of salvation for everyone and that no one, particularly any sinning rebels, have any right or authority to claim any exemption to his will or pride in their claim to his willful blessings.
Various texts of Scripture give us some clues as to what God considers to be basically important in his work of salvation, but it is the commission and the calling of God's children to reflect his glory, to witness to his grace and love in Jesus Christ, and to be faithful in their stewardship of all the resources and gifts that he has given to them, including his gift of faith and the forgiveness of their sins. All of us, all humanity, is going to stand before God and his authorized judge, Jesus, and there will be no human explanation for any of us to justify ourselves before them!
We would do well to stop this discussion and debate and proclaim and teach and interpret the "good news" of Jesus, who died and rose from the dead to make salvation possible. This is the commission that God and Jesus has given to his disciples, including those of us whom he has called to be his "children", his "apostles" (sent ones) in the world. I would like to see more "good news" in this forum, and less debates that probably only confuse and distract and probably offend many non-believing viewers.
Rather than dealing with questions regarding "election" and "free will", let us give more attention to what Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God is doing day by day in our lives; what is Jesus doing in your life today? That is a far more important question to be discussing than any that have to with "election" and "free will". Amen.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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CHEWY
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posted
David-
"First I would like to know if you agree with Charles Spurgeon’s above statement?"
I do agree with Spurgeon very much. As I have also posted recently on another topic, I believe that man has fallen into the trap of an either/or mentality. [Either the responsibility of man exists or the sovreignty of God exists] I choose both. The Scriptures plainly teach both and therefore I don't have to "choose" one or the other, I am to accept both.
For example: I have seen my wife stand at the closet and "choose" what she will wear. After donning several different garments, maybe even a dozen different ones, she will conclude with let's say the blue oufit. Yet from the omniscience of God, she had no choice but to wear the one God knew she would end up wearing.
This is something that nearly sent Martin Luther to the "madhouse." Yet he too came to the conclusion that this is something we have to accept and forget trying to understand.
I don't adhere to the teaching of Armenianism but I strongly disagree with the Calvinism that says there is no need to evangelize, pray, etc. as it is all foreordained. This is a dangerous teaching.
Have you ever considered that evangelism has two sides? On one side we have the person spreading the Gospel to an unbelieving world and someone receives the Gospel and is saved. On the other hand, we have the Gospel being presented with no response and the unbeliever continues to live in an unsaved state. Praise God for those occassions where the lost one is found. Yet there is a purpose for the evangelism of those who do not receive. Those who reject the Gospel one day will stand at the Great White Throne Judgment and there life will be judged. When the image of those who reject the Gospel is recalled to their memory they will find themselves in a situation where that "Every knee shall bow." Sadly, it will be too late.
Thanks David for hosting this site, where that we can share our thoughts and beliefs.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
David-
I know that you would rather see this thread fade away. Sorry for reopening it.
Chewy-
No I don’t want this thread to fade away as I am very interested in what people believe and why.
It is very interesting to me that seemingly good Godly people that have Godly fruit bearing lives and are really out to tell people about the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ, see what the bible says and means in such a different light.
It is very puzzling to me.
First of all I want to state that I believe in God’s Supreme Sovereignty. God is God and can do what ever He wants and He does just that. This is to include giving men freewill on certain decisions if He chooses to do so. If He wants, yes he can create people to be like robots. If He wants, He can if He so chooses to do so, create people to go to hell. But that don’t mean I believe He does.
When reading the T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
I do agree with 3 of these, not necessarily the way Calvin sees it but the way I understand it when asking the Holy Spirit to show me what He wants me to know.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
The Holy Spirit is the one that has taught me as I would have never came know Jesus Christ by listening to men as they seem to have ulterior motives. I have learned that the Holy Spirit never tries to play games but is gently leading us toward knowing Jesus Christ the Son of God. And in seeking to know more about why this topic seems to split very Godly men and women apart. I want to know what people think and why we can not get on the same page. Because I know I love and follow Jesus Christ and I am certain that people on both sides of this issue love and follow the Lord. So if anyone else is interested and some what puzzled about this, lets discuss it in a friendly way.
The below I agree with to a certain point, but not the way Calvin teaches it:
Unconditional Election
Irresistible Grace
I really like to read Charles Spurgeon’s writing. When I was told he was a Calvinist I started looking into it. I do agree with his below statement.
Many like to claim Spurgeon as a staunch Calvinist, all the way through, but listen to what he said concerning free-will, and I quote: “I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.” Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that “it is not of him that willeth, or of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once to Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find in one part of the Bible that everything is foreordained, that is true; and I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.”
http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm
First I would like to know if you agree with Charles Spurgeon’s above statement?
Also this has become such an intriguing subject to me that I would like to open up several topics and look into them together. (Just discussing it not arguing)
One on Irresistible Grace and another on Unconditional Election.
I will open them today. Everyone please join us and lets talk about this subject in a kind and Christ like way.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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posted
Is correct theology, offering hope to the hopeless or taking away hope?
True story…
A preacher who once believed and preached …
“Once Saved Always Saved’’ “Predestination, Heaven or Hell”…
One day his little girl came to him and said “dad I’ve been listening to you preach ever since I was old enough to listen and understand and I know I am predestined for hell there is no use me trying to do any different, I am going to enjoy as much of life as I can before I go to hell.
The dad / pastor / begged and pleaded with his little girl only sixteen years of age, but to no avail. Her mind was made up she was going to hell, she was convinced from her dad’s preaching she was predestined for hell so why try…
and with that left home.
The girl started living a very rebellious life alcohol, drugs, and sex …. The next information the dad got about his daughter was she was dead from an accident.
I would hate to be this father for more than one reason….
Could this story be different if the dad had a different theology?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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CHEWY
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posted
David-
In further response to the post on March 23...
No matter whether you are Calvinist, Armenian or somewhere in between, all agree back to God's foreknowledge. He foreknew who would be saved and who wouldn't be saved even before the creation of the universe. This being said, If God foreknew that many wouldn't be saved and he created them anyway, aren't they without hope of salvation? [I guess I have a hard time understanding how God's foreknowledge could be wrong.]
Also I see those, that are of the elect, as some who were selected for no reason of our own. I view myself and everyone else as deserving of death and hell. God in His justice has every right to send us all to hell and save none due to our sin. Because He has chosen to make a way for some of these sinful people to be redeemed is an act of His mercy, not that there was anything special about me or any other member of the elect.
One of the problems with the Calvinistic teaching stems from the idea that since I am one of God's elect, I can become prideful in this. God's mercy should in no way shape or form make us prideful, except in the Lord Jesus. It should make us grateful.
I know that you would rather see this thread fade away. Sorry for reopening it.
Still gathering information and trying to be able to explain what I believe and the reason for the hope that is within me- Thank You Jesus!!!!
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
bump...I was really wondering about your answer to my statement...
WildB all I can say is if you are Truly Sealed you will live like you are seal, just like the Boiler that has been sealed remains sealed and does it intended purpose!
Am I off in my reasoning?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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posted
To those of Calvinist teaching that say only the elect will be saved, your teaching makes Yahweh a being worst than Hitler.
Bring your thought of Election to its conclusion!
Why bother to obey Yahweh's command to raise up a child in the way he should go. if he or she is Elected they will be saved anyway !
Your doctrine make Yahweh and Yeshua respecters of persons, "which the scripture plainly say Yahweh is not.
Yeshua died for whosoever will!
Not just the Elect.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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posted
WildB all I can say is if you are Truly Sealed you will live like you are seal, just like the Boiler that has been sealed remains seal and does it intended purpose!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by fastforward:
WildB,
Thanks.
If you cared to look at my little profile here at this site you will see trucking listed. In the good old U.S. of A. we ship more goods by truck than any other country in the world. And on the backs of all those truck trailers are placed these seals. Only authorized personnel can legally break the seals and only when they reach their destination, (excepting upon some sort of catastrophe and even then it is still only authorized personnel just a different set).
It was good talking to you WildB,
Fastforward
I did. And hopefully we can put this dog to rest.
I too understand SEALING. ALL safty valves on a Boiler are SEALED.
The valve is set to a limit that lets the valve lift to mantain a safe operating pressure.
When lifted it goes back to the limit operation without having to be ~RE-SEALED.
Those that teach OSAS , ONCE SEALED AIN'T SEALED, are those that would by~pass the valve and jepordized the overal integaty of the boiler.
Boilers with misfunctioning, improperly set or TAMPERED with safty valves KILL.
Thats why the SEAL is important.
Lets Let the Holy Spirit SEAL and not man's sillyness.
I thank God Thru Jesus my Lord that I am SEALED untill the day of REDEMPTION.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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KnowHim
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
I think there is some misunderstanding among non-Calvinists concerning Calvinistic doctrine.
Calvinism does not teach that those who are saved can point the finger at those who are not saved and say they are not elect.
A Calvinist evangelist was once asked. “Why preach to those who are not elect, why don’t you preach to the elect only?” The evangelist replied. “You put a label on the elect and I will preach to them only.” No one knows who the elect are among the unsaved, so the evangelist must preach to all men equally. Only the elect will respond by the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The non-elect will not understand.
Good point. The ones that respond make the choice to do so via the Holy Spirit who calls all men when Jesus is lifted up.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Bloodbought
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posted
I think there is some misunderstanding among non-Calvinists concerning Calvinistic doctrine.
Calvinism does not teach that those who are saved can point the finger at those who are not saved and say they are not elect.
A Calvinist evangelist was once asked. “Why preach to those who are not elect, why don’t you preach to the elect only?” The evangelist replied. “You put a label on the elect and I will preach to them only.” No one knows who the elect are among the unsaved, so the evangelist must preach to all men equally. Only the elect will respond by the prompting of the Holy Spirit. The non-elect will not understand.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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KnowHim
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posted
Chewy,
The very same thing happen to me. But I believe the Holy Spirit draws all men at some point in their life. If they continue to say no then their heart becomes hard and they may never come.
I sure believe we are on the same team but we just don't agree on this subject.
I do however believe we need to point everyone to Jesus Christ and let Him be where we keep our gaze and not on certain teachers.
Jesus is the one that said:
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
John 12:32 (KJV)
So I shall keep telling people about the love of God. And lifting up the name of Jesus Christ.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16 (KJV)
For once I was lost and now I am found, was blind but now I see. It is so good to know that God can save even some one as bad as me. I am sure if someone told me that Jesus only died for the elect before I came to know Him, that I would have though I sure was not one of the elect because I was surely on the highway to hell. It sure did not look like I was one and I would have though I had NO HOPE.
But think God no one told me that. They told me Jesus came so sinners would come to know Him.
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question. You are the first Calvinist that would say they where one of the elect. So I see you do know Jesus. That is the main thing to me. I know for sure no one is saved that does not know Jesus Christ.
God bless!
Plow on, plow on...
David C
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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CHEWY
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posted
David-
I know ontologically. I know because of the changes He has made in my life. I know because I find myself doing those things that I don't want to do, yet I am driven by an unseen guiding hand to make the correct decisions. I know because God has opened my eyes and my ears to understand that He is sovereign. I know because only God could have taken the rebellious heart that I had and conditioned it to a point of which it was suitable for His use. I know because I realize that I would have never chosen Christ of my own accord. His wooing me, His chastising me, His seeking me in the ungodliest of places and letting me know that He was there even then have revealed to me that I am one of His elect.
Please, don't get me wrong. I clearly made a choice for Christ, I voluntarily professed Him as my Lord and Personal Savior. My questions revolve around the work that had to happen before I made that choice. This work that had to happen within my heart could not be performed by me. Without this work being completed, I could not have chosen Christ. I was in an evil place, a desolate land, an environment that had grips on every aspect of my life. To think that I just suddenly woke up one morning and decided to profess Christ is unimaginable for me. God chose me first. Then I voluntarily embraced Him.
Could I have rejected Him? Could I have refused His wooing? I to this day don't see that as even optional. The deliverances He performed in my life
before salvation tell me that He had my number and left the 99 behind to come get me and carry me home to where I belonged.
When does the regeneration of the heart happen? Before salvation, after?
Gathering information-
Plowing on-
Chewy-
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Perhaps election is true? Perhaps however, we do not understand what we think we understand when we read what we read.
Is this one of those statements that proves itself?
Anyway, if God chose the elect in eternity past, or if He only knows who will choose Him and the Holy Spirit prompts that individual, the line between these two is so fine that I don't get what the fuss is all about.
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Michael Harrison
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This may sound a little off of the subject, but, you cannot prove God. It will be really off of the subject to say that you cannot disprove God. However concerning the subject of proving God, this simple scriptural fact states God's feelings on the saving of men's souls:
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe."(1Co 1:21)
It is equal opportunity salvation unless He chose who would believe way back when. And because He is who He is, HE can do that. Did He? Understanding election is beyond us. He can surely show us that what we think, is not how it really is, if we think that we are so sure. I think that it is 'haughty' to assume, or presume election, which makes a statement in itself. That would not be a fruit of the Spirit. Amen!
Perhaps election is true? Perhaps however, we do not understand what we think we understand when we read what we read.
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Carol Swenson
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He should have been striving with the question, what must I do to be saved?
He could have received the following answer.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
I agree! But there are some who say that people have no choice. The choice was made in eternity past. Their definition of the elect, and our definition of believers, seem so similar to me that I fail to understand the difference.
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Bloodbought
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Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Meaning of the word strive
75 avgwni,zomai agonizomai {ag-o-nid'-zom-ahee}
Meaning: 1) to enter a contest: contend in the gymnastic games 2) to contend with adversaries, fight 3) metaph. to contend, struggle, with difficulties and dangers 4) to endeavour with strenuous zeal, strive: to obtain something
Origin: from 73; TDNT - 1:135,20; v
Usage: AV - strive 3, fight 3, labour fervently 1; 7
This man shouldn’t have been concerned about how many would be saved and what will the many do who are not able to enter.
He should have been striving with the question, what must I do to be saved?
He could have received the following answer.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:31
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Carol Swenson
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This whole thing is confusing me to no end. I came across this today:
Concise Theology: A Guide To Historic Christian Beliefs
What we do know is, first, that had we not been chosen for life we would not be believers now ( for only the elect are brought to faith ), and, second, that as elect believers we may rely on God to finish in us the good work that he started (1 Cor. 1:8-9; Phil. 1:6; 1 Thess. 5:23-24; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18). Knowledge of one’s election thus brings comfort and joy.
Peter tells us we should be “eager to make [our] calling and election sure” (2 Pet. 1:10)—that is, certain to us. Election is known by its fruits . Paul knew the election of the Thessalonians from their faith, hope, and love, the inward and outward transformation of their lives that the gospel had brought about (1 Thess. 1:3-6). The more that the qualities to which Peter has been exhorting his readers appear in our lives (goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love: 2 Pet. 1:5-7), the surer of our own election we are entitled to be.
I do not believe in the appalling idea that God created a world full of people who are condemned to an eternity in hell with no choice and no chance to belong to Christ.
But aside from that horrible thought, where is the difference between an elect and a believer? We say that God has chosen the elect, but a believer chooses God. Yet we know that a sinner will not choose God unless the Holy Spirit prompts him in some way.
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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by David Campbell:
I would like to know how do you know you are one of the chosen ones?
Just wondering how Calvinist know they are special and better then the people made to go to hell with out a chance.
Thanks,
David
Hi David,
I will give you a Bible reference that those of us who believe in election sometimes quote.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
If you have the Son you are chosen and elected Calvinist whither you are aware of it or not. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
God bless.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by CHEWY:
David-
I will bite. Yes I am one of God's elect.
Chewy-
Well it is not a trick question. Thought we were going to discuss Calvinism and since they believe God has alread chosen the elect and the person has nothing to do with it.
I would like to know how do you know you are one of the chosen ones?
Just wondering how Calvinist know they are special and better then the people made to go to hell with out a chance.
Thanks,
David
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OK, because you are a nice person I will stop and I will try never to act ugly here at this site again out of respect to my fellows.
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Carol Swenson
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1 Corinthians 1:10
Now, dear brothers and sisters, I appeal to you by the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ to stop arguing among yourselves. Let there be real harmony so there won’t be divisions in the church. I plead with you to be of one mind, united in thought and purpose. (NLT )
1 Corinthians 1:12-13
What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? (NIV)
Paul used a series of rhetorical questions. First he asked whether Christ could be divided. This is a graphic picture of what happens when the church (the body of Christ) quarrels and argues. Christ is one; the church is one. No church ought to split into warring factions. Then Paul asked if he, himself, had been crucified for them. Again the answer is obviously no. Only One had been crucified for the believers—indeed, only One could be crucified to pay the penalty for sins. Third question: Were the believers baptized into the name of Paul (or even of Peter or Apollos)? Again, the answer was no. They were baptized into the name of the One who had been crucified for them. This whole idea of factions was wrong; Paul did not exempt those who desired to follow him, nor did he point out any flaws in the teachings of Peter and Apollos. They all taught the same thing—the gospel—but their demeanor and delivery were different. This had caused the cliques—and Paul refused to go along with any of it. Such divisions had to be stopped.
Paul wondered whether the Corinthians’ quarrels had “divided” Christ. This is a graphic picture of what happens when the church (the body of Christ) is divided. With so many churches and styles of worship available today, believers can get caught up in the same game of “my preacher is better than yours!” They follow personalities and even change churches based on who is popular. To act this way is to divide Christ again. But Christ is not divided, and his true followers should not allow anything to divide the church. Don’t let your appreciation for any teacher, preacher, speaker, or writer lead you into intellectual pride. Believers’ allegiance must be to Christ and to the unity that he desires.
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David Campbell,
Everything is a race to the bottom with you. Let’s see…
What verse comes to mind this time?
Ah, here it is-
II Cor. 11:6
Yes that will do nicely.
One of the “main” knocks against Paul was his “rough” talk, (even now the girls don’t like his “feminist” ways). But as he continues in the verse he always had an answer, probably because as he mentions at the end of the verse, he understood well whom he was dealing with.
So maybe there is a verse or two that we can compare you with-
We don’t have to go very far, just a few pages back where Paul says in I Cor. 1:12-
“Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apolios; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.”
And of that bunch I think the “super” saint liked to point out that he was of Christ.
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WildB,
Thanks.
If you cared to look at my little profile here at this site you will see trucking listed. In the good old U.S. of A. we ship more goods by truck than any other country in the world. And on the backs of all those truck trailers are placed these seals. Only authorized personnel can legally break the seals and only when they reach their destination, (excepting upon some sort of catastrophe and even then it is still only authorized personnel just a different set).
It was good talking to you WildB,
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CHEWY
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David-
I will bite. Yes I am one of God's elect.
Chewy-
Posts: 86 | From: Kingsport Tn. | Registered: Jan 2008
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by fastforward:
WildB,
If I were going to make a guess, I would say that this site would not fall under the Calvin banner. fastforward
You are correct. It does not fall under the Arminius banner either.
This message board is for followers of Jesus Christ not Calvin or Arminius.
You can discuss this subject with out trying to point your finger in someones face. If you are going to discuss it be nice.
Thank you,
David
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WildB
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Once SEALED, SEALED until the day of REDEMTION.
(Eph.4[30])
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That is all.....
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WildB,
Thanks for the website.
There is also a guy named Jacob Arminius that you may find interesting. Arminius developed a system of Christian thought on the same order as Calvin but the two systems are sort of “anti” each other. As a matter of fact most of Protestantism can be divided using the two respective systems. Partly that is because these two men were much involved in the early reformation movement. Surprisingly not much has changed since these two systems crystallized. If I were going to make a guess, I would say that this site would not fall under the Calvin banner.
I do have a question for you WildB. That is if you have the time and would like to converse with me for a while. In another thread you were saying something about “once sealed” or something like that, (forgive my memory). I did not understand what you were getting at. Do you remember and are you willing to repeat here at this thread.
Thanks WildB, sorry to bother you,
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KnowHim
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According to Calvin: God has predestined to save a certain group of people; these are called God's Elect. God's sovereign will for His elect cannot be resisted or thwarted as His irresistible grace ensures that all of them will willingly accept Jesus Christ, at some point in their lives before they die. The Non-Elect cannot come to Christ because natural fallen man is totally sinful and depraved. Salvation is entirely the work of God from start to finish. All believers (the Elect) will go to heaven, but all unbelievers (the Non-Elect) will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (hell), where they will be tortured forever.
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WildB
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I found ths on the web.
What is Calvinism and is it Biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?
five points of Calvinism
Question: "What is Calvinism and is it Biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism?"
Answer: The five points of Calvinism can be summarized by the acronym TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, and P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs.
Total Depravity - as a result of Adam’s fall the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).
Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.
Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).
Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected and Christ died for, God draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37,44; 10:16).
Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).
While all these doctrines have a biblical basis, many people reject all or some of them. So-called “four point Calvinists” accept Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints as biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – it is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. As for Limited Atonement, however, four-point Calvinists believe that atonement in unlimited, arguing that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Peter 2:1.
The five-point Calvinists, however, see problems with four-point Calvinism. First, they argue, if Total Depravity is true, then Limited Atonement cannot possibly be true because if Jesus died for the sins of every person, then whether or not His death is applicable to an individual depends on whether or not that person “accepts” Christ. But as we have seen from the above description of Total Depravity, man in his natural state has no capacity whatsoever to choose God, nor does he want to. In addition, if Unlimited Atonement is true, then hell is full of people for whom Christ died and He shed His blood in vain for them. To the five-point Calvinist, this is unthinkable. Please note - this article is only a brief summary of the five points of Calvinism.
http://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html
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That is all.....
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WildB
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For the baseball fans, what is Calvinism ?
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That is all.....
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CWO4GUNNER
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Christ showed great compassion and preached the good news to almost everyone he encountered when he was on earth, to the lost, tax collectors, wine drinkers, fornicators, adulterers , prostitutes, the sick, the old, the insane, and even the dead. But he had no compassion on those professing to know the truth, and rather teaching the doctrines of men and their father the devil. In fact the scriptures show us Christ, John the baptist and Paul were belligerent and sarcastic toward those who spread lies about Gods word and desperately go around the church trying to collect the souls of the lost and weak.
If the saints were here today, and of course in God's due time they will be, they would make short work of them all because they are worse then the lost. Professing the lies of Calvinism they slink around the body of Christ seeking out where they can inflict wounds by peddling the same type of twisted scripture Satan offered in the Garden, who unwittingly is their adopted father. If there is anyone predestined for destruction these are surly at the top of Gods list.
Oh by the Holy Spirit that stirs within me over this issue, I pray that God will bring upon their heads starting today the measure of the plagues written in the word of God for teaching seductive lies to the lost and snatching the truth from the harts of new believers(their quest). Most Holy God I pray for the sake of those who have been drawn here by the Holy Spirit from all corners of the world to fellowship in this place with you in truth and in spirit. I pray Oh God that this heresy preached so shamelessly with blatant disregard for the truth of "The Way" and in preparation for the Antichrist, I pray that all of this evil be be pushed back from this place so that those that know you and bear living fruit of the spirit may fellowship in this place in peace and in truth Amen. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
"I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God." Revelation 2: 2-7
Idiomatic rendering of the Original Greek Texts
He who is overcoming -- "this one" -- shall be arrayed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the scroll of the life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before His messengers. revelations 3:5
Without authority, I merely quote you Christian message board rule #1
"We do not promote the prosperity gospel preachers on this message board. You may not teach any false gospel. There will be no warning from here on, you will just be removed from this message board. This is not debatable."
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David Campbell,
It is true that you have had no luck getting someone to answer your important question. OK you have made no threats. And you and I will no longer be discussing Calvin/Arminius. Thanks so much David Campbell.
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For those Calvinist left I give you this advice-
“If you’re going to tell people the truth you’d better make them laugh; otherwise they’ll kill you.”
George Bernard Shaw
Disclaimer: In order to keep from being misunderstood, the above quote is just a bit of irony, (not intended for theological use).
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Michael Harrison
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Yes David, but even better!
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
That is far from robotic. (Can i say that? You seem a little antsey.)
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
I won’t answer your question under direst. If you will stop your threats then I will answer. I said before that I don’t care if we discuss this subject or not. I am not pursuing this subject. But I am willing to discuss it with anyone in fairness.
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I have not made any threats. If you don't want to answer that is fine with me.
I have not had a calvinist answer it yet so no big deal.
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waynemlj,
It seems like you are giving standard arguments. Then the other side will respond in kind.
As to my direct question-
Will you agree that both sides of the debate have difficulties yet to overcome?
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David Campbell,
I won’t answer your question under direst. If you will stop your threats then I will answer. I said before that I don’t care if we discuss this subject or not. I am not pursuing this subject. But I am willing to discuss it with anyone in fairness.
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Michael Harrison
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I went to the race track here in Charlotte once for the big event. Everybody was chanting "Anybody but Waltrip." Darryl Waltrip was doing well, and actually won it. When he was in the winner's circle where the podium was, he took the microphone, and in anger stated, "Alright! I'll meet every one of you in the parking lot!" He wasn't happy about what everybody was saying. Well, I'll meet every one of you at christianity-debate forum! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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I never meant to ignore the christianity-debate site, but somehow i ended up doing so. I don't remember if i know who i am over there, not to mention my password? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
That'ud be a good place to debate that C al dude! Maybe there could be a dedicated forum to that very subject? I dunno! Thanks and God Bless!
By the way, i panicked this morning when I tried to get on and it said that advanced member #7401, which is not my number, didn't exist. Thought i had been booted, praise God.
Oh, and thanks for the great bbs site!
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KnowHim
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This debate thing is not a new problem here. That is why I put up the following message board. If you don't like the rules here you can go that and debate anything as long as it is not X rated.
www.christianity-debate.com
or
www.religion-debate.com
If you are offended easy don't go there.
There are few rules and it is open to everyone.
NOTE: You will have to sign up again as it is separate from this message board.
Thanks,
David
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quote:
Originally posted by fastforward:
David Campbell,
I would be glad to answer your question if you quit with the threats. But if not then what would be the use?
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>>> Are you one of the elect? <<<
Yes or No
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