Christian Chat Network

This version of the message boards has closed.
Please click below to go to the new Christian BBS website.

New Message Boards - Click Here

You can still search for the old message here.

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
| | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Bible Topics & Study   » The Importance of Correct Theology (Page 3)

 
This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Author Topic: The Importance of Correct Theology
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Can a individual resit "Grace"?

Hi becauseHelives,

I presume you are asking, "Can an individual resist "Grace"?

I'm not sure what question you're asking, but it is an intriguing one just the same.

(1) If you mean the grace of salvation God gives so that we can believe in Him and be saved, then I would respond by saying, "No!" Psalm 45:11, "You are the most handsome of the sons of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore, God has blessed you forever."
This suggests a permanent act by God and not one that the individual soul has any say about.

Romans 9:19b, "For who can resist his will?"

James 4:5, "Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, 'He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us'?"

These show God as Sovereign, no matter what man does.

(2) If you mean general grace that God gives to all men, such as the examples of righteous men and women in a person's life. I think the answer is "Yes!" We see many who do resist God's grace of love to them, and thus they suffer the punishment that God has prepared for them . . . in this life as well as in eternity.

Maybe you would like to rephrase your question?
I'd be willing to discuss this topic further with you if you want to.

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, yea! Good point. (I jes couldn't resist.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 15 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree Michael that is the correct answer but "once Saved Always " damnable doctrine teaches different.

any comment waynemlj

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yep!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 15 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Can a individual resit "Grace"?

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by waynemlj:
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,
It appears that we do agree that an individual does not helplessly reject the gospel. But I am a little confused then. According to you, the elect repent and believe because the Holy Spirit decided to regenerate them. Does'nt that leave all the rest that the Holy Spirit decided not to regenerate in a "helpless" state unable to repent and believe? So what is the difference between helpless and unable to repent/believe and "helplessly rejecting then?"

I would like if you would consider this verse. John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which SHALL believe on me through their word;

It appears that the word "shall", when used by Jesus could easily be translated "will".

Let me show you a few more examples throughout scripture.

Rev. 8:16-17 They shall (will) hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall (will) the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall (will) feed them, and shall(will) lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall (will) wipe away all tears from their eyes.

A translation of must, can, could, should,or would, would not suffice in the above. I could find many more examples where "will" would be a suitable translatation for "shall". Anyways, to get to the point that I am going to try and make..........

Jesus does not say "but for them also which can believe on me through their word", He says...."but for them also which shall (will) believe on me through their word. The word believe in this verse is an action verb.

Its not that men cannot believe, its that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later.

With love in Christ, Daniel

__________________________________________________

Hi Daniel,

Especially these words of yours in your reply above I direct my response to:

"It's not that men cannot believe, it's that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later."

They are the same, if you think about it a little more. Whoever God does not give the gift of faith to Cannot believe and, therefore, Will not believe. Can you see that?

You have not made a distinction
that has anything in it that will change their eternal destiny.

If you just look at it logically like this, the point to be made is easy to see:

Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Now put in the circle a few dots to represent all those who are NOT given the gift of faith.

How many of those in that circle will come to believe in Christ as Savior?

None, right? Does it matter whether we say Cannot or Will not? Aren't they still in the same group?

waynemlj

Hi, again, Daniel,

I guess I was rather rushed the other day when I replied to your quote here. You were interested in the difference between "shall" and "will." Being a retired English teacher, I can assure you that they mean the same thing in most common usage, and certainly, in these words of Jesus they do mean the same thing.

He is also praying to the Father for us who come along 2000 plus years later who will (shall) believe in Him. We're included, just like those who died hundreds of years before Jesus was born, but who believed that God would one day send a Messiah to save them from their sins.

Hope I hit the right topic this time.

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Waynemlj,
I do not dispute the fact that God does the choosing. He makes the final decision.
The bone I have to pick with you is it appears that you do not believe that God's decision has anything to do with our response to Him and His word. You have placed heavy emphasis on the "predestined" portion of the word and much less emphasis on the "foreknowledge" of God.
Dont get me wrong, I do believe faith is a gift, but in the sense that God is the One who has made the way for us(established the faith that saves), and also in the sense of the diversity of gifts that is distributed to the body for the effectual work of the Lord in drawing in unbelievers and the edifying and building up the body in the unity of love and peace....but I do not believe that this one verse voids the responsiblity that man has towards God in repentance and faith.
In repentance a man must turn from his sin and position of rebellion to God, and in faith a man must heed to the words of Jesus and his conditions of discipleship.

I have discovered that Paul uses the word "faith" in more than one way changing emphasis and meaning of the entire message. Take notice of the following ways in which Paul uses the word "faith"

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance towards God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard...

2 Timothy 3 14-15 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

--I could find several more verses which show that faith is not one-sided.

In the book of Ephesians Paul is adressing a group of believers who have already repented towards God and exercised faith towards Christ in baptism and confession. He is careful in his selection of words to remind them of the source of all blessing so as to deter pride, but I do not see how this would void the necessity of our repentance towards God and faith towards Jesus.

I guess I have questions ......If Paul speaks of faith as a gift from God how is it that he also speaks of faith towards the Lord Jesus? Why would he need to admonish believers to continue in the faith? How could there be faith without works? and lastly how could there be faith without love?

Pauls objective seemed pretty clear. He desired that his audience would see no dichotomy between "what faith is" and "who Christ is". I think the problem comes in when people think that "justification by faith" voids out man's responsiblities in repentance and faith.
We may have a world of people that say the sinners prayer, but never forsake their sin, and never respond to Jesus invitation to follow Him. What happens if we have all of our theology straight, but we neglect the call to discipleship, the call to leave everything behind, the call to compassion, and the call to suffer for the sake of Christ?

With love in Christ, Daniel

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 18 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
waynemlj
quote:

I find it confusing to deal with a long Post, so I selected this line to respond to:

that seams to be your favorite saying but the Bible which is Yahweh's Post to His children is also His lengthy and must be understood in context of His plan for man.

, "whosoever will" means just that whosoever will....

who ever except the Blood of Yeshua's sacrifice in obedience to the conditions of Yeshua Will will will be saved...


Joshua was the one chosen by G-d to succeed Moses. He promised the land to him on behalf of the people of Israel. He was anointed by Moses to lead the people and was confirmed by G-d as the one who would actually deliver the Promised Land to the recipients of that land. The land is clearly promised to the sons of Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel. The very promise given to Abraham, confirmed to his sons and again to Moses is spoken by G-d to His representative, Joshua. Therefore it is clear that Joshua was surely and truly of Israel; recognized by Moses, called by G-d, and respected among the people as such.


But who is this fellow named Caleb? Numbers 32: 10-12 holds a hint that we often miss; a hint that is certainly overlooked by those Gentiles who align themselves with the House of Ephraim.


And HaShem's anger was kindled in that day, and he swore, saying, 'Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite, and Joshua the son of Nun; because they have wholly followed HaShem.'"


Caleb was the son of Jephunneh, the Kenizzite. What tribe is that? It is not a tribe of Israel at all. Caleb's father was one who had joined himself to the Jewish people as they left Egypt. He was among the ones who had joined himself with the people of Israel. We read in Exodus 12:37-38 about a multitude of such people.


"And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, besides children. And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle."


Yet,when it came time to select a representative from among the tribes, it was this Caleb that Moses selected. This "grafted-in" one was considered "a prince" among his tribe, the clan of Judah. So close was the relationship of Caleb with the true Israelites, that he was given a choice inheritance in the land. He in fact, defended his right to an inheritance that was according to his position as a full-fledged member of the people of Israel. Once one has been joined to Israel, there is no distinction of Jew or Gentile any longer. Even the Passover meal is eaten only by Israelites, but scripture makes it clear that all who have come and joined themselves to the people of Israel are to be treated as equal with the true Jews.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB] waynemlj,

Hi becauseHelves,

I find it confusing to deal with a long Post, so I selected this line to respond to:

"In that Passover illustration could an Egyptian have put the Blood on the door post?"

No, an Egyptian could not have put the blood on the doorpost. The Egyptians were not God's elect people; they knew nothing about the true God of the Hebrews, at all.
And, anyway, God was not talking to them, but He was talking to HIS People only. The Hebrews came through the Red Sea and they held on tightly to that history and God back in Egypt, wanted to protect them from the Angel of Death, and so He told only them to put the blood on the door posts.

I edited the last few lines to correct the time periods I had confused in my original answer. It ought to make more sense,now.

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,

First of all the distinction that I am showing you is that "cannot believe" implies that one is not capable of doing, or has an insufficient capacity to function in a certain way, but on the other hand, "will not believe" indicates a deliberate refusal to put oneself in subjection to. There certainly is a big difference.

Lets cut to the chase now. You like to camp around this verse(no question about it).....

Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

I highlighted your favorite part. I perceive you are confident in what you believe and in how you perceive it to be true. You seem to be a fairly patient person willing to work through things in a cibil manner. Lets work together on this then. I believe that we must adress this issue using the most reliable way......comparing scripture to scripture. I will present the scriptures and politely ask if you would start off the discussion by providing an explanation on how the two "seemingly" opposing scriptures can both be true without causing any contradiction to either Gods character or the consistency of His word. Here are the two verses that I believe would be fair and perfectly in line with our discussion/debate.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

vs.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is the head of the corner.

***The question is.... How is faith a gift and at the same time unbelief is equated with disobedience?***

Since I have already elaborated on my position on this whole topic, I find it only fair that you give your explanation for these verses that seem to contradict. After you explain ,then I will reply and we both can keep going back and forth till we both can agree on reasonable conclusions. This is how debates should go...right?...peacefully.

With love in Christ, Daniel

_______________________________________________

Hi Daniel,

I sure like your spirit of enquiry. You are truly seeking truth and understanding of God's Word and that is very pleasing to Him, for sure!

The two Scripture references you gave me don't contradict each other. (and you're right, God's word can't contradict itself anywhere). God is "not a God of confusion " the Bible says.

The second Scripture you quote is from 1 Peter 2:7 in which Peter is making a distinction between those who are belivers and those who are not. He is talking to the Elect and trying to encourage their faith. This is what Peter is always interested in.

So he's just saying that you and I, the elect, believe in Jesus and think that He is precious, but to those who are disobedient (the unbelievers, the non-elect) Jesus means nothing to them, and they are supposed to be the builders of the church (that would be the Pharisees and Scribes of Jesus' day).
They, in their unbelief, stumble over Jesus who is the very cornerstone of the church. But they just don't get it because they are self-righteous and will not come to God because of their stubbornness to follow their own idea of God's word. And they are left without faith and without understanding.
That second verse says, too, that faith is the gift of God.

Therefore, the two verses don't contradict each other. They say the same thing in different ways. That's all.

I hope I didn't get too long-winded in my reply.

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,

First of all the distinction that I am showing you is that "cannot believe" implies that one is not capable of doing, or has an insufficient capacity to function in a certain way, but on the other hand, "will not believe" indicates a deliberate refusal to put oneself in subjection to. There certainly is a big difference.

Lets cut to the chase now. You like to camp around this verse(no question about it).....

Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

I highlighted your favorite part. I perceive you are confident in what you believe and in how you perceive it to be true. You seem to be a fairly patient person willing to work through things in a cibil manner. Lets work together on this then. I believe that we must adress this issue using the most reliable way......comparing scripture to scripture. I will present the scriptures and politely ask if you would start off the discussion by providing an explanation on how the two "seemingly" opposing scriptures can both be true without causing any contradiction to either Gods character or the consistency of His word. Here are the two verses that I believe would be fair and perfectly in line with our discussion/debate.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

vs.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is the head of the corner.

***The question is.... How is faith a gift and at the same time unbelief is equated with disobedience?***

Since I have already elaborated on my position on this whole topic, I find it only fair that you give your explanation for these verses that seem to contradict. After you explain ,then I will reply and we both can keep going back and forth till we both can agree on reasonable conclusions. This is how debates should go...right?...peacefully.

With love in Christ, Daniel


IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
waynemlj,

The point I am or was trying to make was not the correct doctrine is unimportant but that Yahweh is more concerned with my heart than “right doctrine”.

Just for the record I believe the doctrine of the “Trinity” as taught by all the major protestant churches is wrong but I also believe those that teach the doctrine of “Oneness” are also wrong but of the two “Trinity” is the most accurate but this would be an entirely different topic.

When a person comes into the walk of faith they do not come in with a perfect knowledge of Yeshua and His doctrines.

I have been studying the Scriptures for thirty years now; let me tell you Yahweh has changed many of my doctrines over the years.

But the one thing that I must guard is my heart.

With my heart I must love the Truth, what ever it cost me.

another point....

In the illustration of Passover how many could be saved?

Was it not whosoever will put the Blood on the door post!

In that Passover illustration could an Egyptian have put the Blood on the door post?

Yeshua’s Blood was for the whole world, every man & woman that would obey Yahweh’s directive.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Your words I selected from a very long Post:
"Because someone does or doesn’t believe in the teaching of Predestination, the Trinity or some other petty doctrine exclude them from Yeshua’s Love?'

Hi becauseHelives,

I chose these lines from your Post because the Post was too long to Reply to and these words suffice for my concern for what you have to say here.
If you don't think Predestination and the Trinity matter except as some "petty doctrine" you are not reading the same Bible I'm reading, for sure.

That's God's Word you're trivializing. You really need to stop and think about that!

Every Word of Scripture is 'God breathed' as it says in 2 Timothy 3:16.
Romans 8:29-30, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be comformed to the image of he Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justifed, he also glorified.'

Do you think that the above words are there because they don't matter to God? They matter Greatly to God.

The Trinity: Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Those are words from the lips of Jesus, the Word of Truth Himself.
Satan is the Liar. Jesus is the Truth!

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CWO4GUNNER:
It never ceases to amaze me how foolish we can be when we take one line of scripture to build an entire religious theology in our own minds to affect the masses. From one verse (“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.") you imagine doctrine to fulfill the lust and envy of your own harts as being worth more then many others who according to you are chosen for destruction. Must make you feel pretty proud and I'm sure you will convince quite a few lofty harts, but do you think God will buy it? Will you proudly accept eternal damnation because in spite of your sincere conviction of being singled out if God informs you that by the very verse you were sincerely mistaken and are not chosen. Will you so proudly accept your own dogma and proudly walk the fires of hell.

I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow. "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'Luke 19:21-23

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Hi CWO4GUNNER,

Just got back to the computer.

I guess I need to reply to two of your points in the above Reply.

1) I'm sure that you believe that every word of Scripture is "God breathed" as is says in 2 Timothy 3:16. Assuming we agree on that truth, what difference can there be between one verse saying the Truth or twenty-five verses?
Jesus clearly separated people into two groups when He said that He was praying for those the Father gave Him for they are the Father's, but that He was not praying for the world. Certainly, the Lost are not the Father's, right?

2)Your words: "Must make you feel pretty proud and I'm sure you will convince quite a few lofty harts, but do you think God will buy it?"

My feelings have nothing to do with the matter. No, certainly not pride!


Answer a question for me, please. If Jesus possessed infinite worth and merit in Himself as the sinless oblation for our sins and our righteousness, could He fail to accomplish the appointed task to die for His Church and effectively save that Church? He said in John 17 that He lost none of those the Father gave Him and that "no one could snatch them out of the Father's hand."
How is it then that more people are going to hell than to heaven? Did Jesus and the Father both fail in Their amazing, perfect plan of salvation?

Matthew 7:13, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are MANY. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and FEW there are who find it."

If you want more Scripture proofs, just let me know. They're everywhere in the New Testament.

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 8 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I strongly felt that you would agree with that.

Can I put in tru cents on this? When I was saved I was shown a copy of the Four Spiritual Laws, which is put out by Teen Challenge, or somebody. At that time it stated inside, the scenario of compliance, or understainding, which was in the form of, fact, faith, and feeling. Now, God is all for feeling. I do not think that He intends for us to live dry, feel high, and still persevere for the crown. But this chain of cause and effect starts with fact! That is the bottom line. Fact is fact. It is so because His word says so. Because the fact happens to be, then faith, which is comfort in the fact, follows. Faith accompanies fact, and that leads to a wonderful feeling, but we do not base our faith on feeling. That is the gist of the fact, faith, feeling admonition, that it starts with fact. God’s word is fact.

What happens to us is that ‘we believe’. Not only, but we choose to believe, which is a deliberate act of the will. But that is our capacity. Thereafter, because we believe, faith can fill us. Faith can fill us because we believe in a fact. That is God’s design. That is God’s order. And that is our responsibility: We believe that we receive. If our heart is true, God honors it. (If we need help believing, we can ask. That in itself shows faith.)

Now, faith is of God! This verse verifies it: 2Ti 2:13 “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”

But if we believe not, we do not receive of Him, which is verified by this verse: 2Ti 2:12 “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”

We deny Him by unbelief.

Therefore it is demonstrated that faith is of God, “By grace are ye saved through faith, which is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,” because faith honors, or ‘fills’ belief, which is our only capacity - to believe, or not. Our belief (or the choosing thereof) is simply faith the size of a mustard seed. True faith, big faith, is God’s, which He gives us if we truly believe.

Mar 9:24 “And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

And we know that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. (Psa 111:10) The fear of God is to believe. Some will. Some won’t. But they have to be drawn of the Spirit, or nothing will happen. Joh 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. “

Predestination is a mystery!

So, faith is a gift. You have it because He gives it to you (present tense). But if you do not believe, then you are rebellious! You reject the free gift, which is woeful, because it is a ‘fact’.





i LOVE JESUS! [updown]

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Michael,
You stated "whoever hears has the opportunity to believe".

My friend in the Lord, all I have to say about that is "amen". I 100% completely agree.

The word(gospel message) will be preached to all nations before the end. It appears to me that the Word is not partial in any way.......therefore we ought not to make it appear that the Holy Spirit functions with partiality in mind. Praise God for that.

Here is truth you will find consistent throughout scripture----the Holy Spirit(Helper) bears witness where the Word of Truth is spoken, not the other way around. If a lie is spoken or there is wrong intent then Jesus Christ does not authorize the Holy Spirit to bear witness.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Waynemlj,

First of all the distinction that I am showing you is that "cannot believe" implies that one is not capable of doing, or has an insufficient capacity to function in a certain way, but on the other hand, "will not believe" indicates a deliberate refusal to put oneself in subjection to. There certainly is a big difference.

Lets cut to the chase now. You like to camp around this verse(no question about it).....

Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:

I highlighted your favorite part. I perceive you are confident in what you believe and in how you perceive it to be true. You seem to be a fairly patient person willing to work through things in a cibil manner. Lets work together on this then. I believe that we must adress this issue using the most reliable way......comparing scripture to scripture. I will present the scriptures and politely ask if you would start off the discussion by providing an explanation on how the two "seemingly" opposing scriptures can both be true without causing any contradiction to either Gods character or the consistency of His word. Here are the two verses that I believe would be fair and perfectly in line with our discussion/debate.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

vs.

1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe He is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is the head of the corner.

***The question is.... How is faith a gift and at the same time unbelief is equated with disobedience?***

Since I have already elaborated on my position on this whole topic, I find it only fair that you give your explanation for these verses that seem to contradict. After you explain ,then I will reply and we both can keep going back and forth till we both can agree on reasonable conclusions. This is how debates should go...right?...peacefully.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)

Whosoever hears, has the opportunity to believe.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Waynemlj,
It appears that we do agree that an individual does not helplessly reject the gospel. But I am a little confused then. According to you, the elect repent and believe because the Holy Spirit decided to regenerate them. Does'nt that leave all the rest that the Holy Spirit decided not to regenerate in a "helpless" state unable to repent and believe? So what is the difference between helpless and unable to repent/believe and "helplessly rejecting then?"

I would like if you would consider this verse. John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which SHALL believe on me through their word;

It appears that the word "shall", when used by Jesus could easily be translated "will".

Let me show you a few more examples throughout scripture.

Rev. 8:16-17 They shall (will) hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall (will) the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall (will) feed them, and shall(will) lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall (will) wipe away all tears from their eyes.

A translation of must, can, could, should,or would, would not suffice in the above. I could find many more examples where "will" would be a suitable translatation for "shall". Anyways, to get to the point that I am going to try and make..........

Jesus does not say "but for them also which can believe on me through their word", He says...."but for them also which shall (will) believe on me through their word. The word believe in this verse is an action verb.

Its not that men cannot believe, its that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later.

With love in Christ, Daniel

__________________________________________________

Hi Daniel,

Especially these words of yours in your reply above I direct my response to:

"It's not that men cannot believe, it's that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later."

They are the same, if you think about it a little more. Whoever God does not give the gift of faith to Cannot believe and, therefore, Will not believe. Can you see that?

You have not made a distinction
that has anything in it that will change their eternal destiny.

If you just look at it logically like this, the point to be made is easy to see:

Draw a circle on a piece of paper. Now put in the circle a few dots to represent all those who are NOT given the gift of faith.

How many of those in that circle will come to believe in Christ as Savior?

None, right? Does it matter whether we say Cannot or Will not. Aren't they still in the same group?

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Waynemlj,
It appears that we do agree that an individual does not helplessly reject the gospel. But I am a little confused then. According to you, the elect repent and believe because the Holy Spirit decided to regenerate them. Does'nt that leave all the rest that the Holy Spirit decided not to regenerate in a "helpless" state unable to repent and believe? So what is the difference between helpless and unable to repent/believe and "helplessly rejecting then?"

I would like if you would consider this verse. John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which SHALL believe on me through their word;

It appears that the word "shall", when used by Jesus could easily be translated "will".

Let me show you a few more examples throughout scripture.

Rev. 8:16-17 They shall (will) hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall (will) the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall (will) feed them, and shall(will) lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall (will) wipe away all tears from their eyes.

A translation of must, can, could, should,or would, would not suffice in the above. I could find many more examples where "will" would be a suitable translatation for "shall". Anyways, to get to the point that I am going to try and make..........

Jesus does not say "but for them also which can believe on me through their word", He says...."but for them also which shall (will) believe on me through their word. The word believe in this verse is an action verb.

Its not that men cannot believe, its that they will not believe.....there is a huge difference between the two. Gotta go talk later.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
waynemlj

"if we endure, we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us;" 2Ti 2:12,13

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Waynemlj,
You are not comparing scripture with scripture. You are comparing scripture to the doctrine of "the total depravity of man" to come up with the conclusions that you do.
Sure seems like we have a pretty mean God if He sends people that "helplessly" reject the gospel to Hell.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Hi Daniel,

No one "helplessly" rejects the gospel. If you do a good reading through Romans ch.1, you get the picture of what we are like in our Fallen Nature.

But, anyway, here's just one verse to reflect on.
Romans 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

That sounds like we are very deliberate in our rebellion against God.

God is holy beyond anythng we can imagine.

The prophet Isaiah discovered that truth when God appeared to him in a vision in

Isaiah 6:4-5, "And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.

And I said, 'Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.'"

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Waynemlj,
You are not comparing scripture with scripture. You are comparing scripture to the doctrine of "the total depravity of man" to come up with the conclusions that you do.
Sure seems like we have a pretty mean God if He sends people that "helplessly" reject the gospel to Hell.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
To quote your quote
quote:
Unrepentant hearts and unbelief are both more linked with our own rebellion and disobedience than anything else. If we were to say that repentance and faith are 100% hand-outs, then we would have to at least associate God with the cause for the sin of unbelief and rebellion of the lost, because God left them that way.

You do not see faith as a 100% handout because you do not believe; and that quite simply

~~~~~~~~~ [Prayer] is your part [Prayer] ~~~~~~~~

- to believe!

Moreover, to be even more explicit, your part is to repent

~~~~~~~~~ [Cross] of 'unbelief' [Cross] ~~~~~~~~~

thereby to be affectionately delivered into His living care.

So you are right. However, upon believing, you discover the 100% side of this. Germinate, thou seed.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Many a Christian, if not nearly all, that is - believer, still has a stony heart even after salvation. It is quite clear that the stony heart has to be broken up and cleared before one can know Christ the way they are supposed to. But this is not well received, because of the stone heart of the hearer. Though he be saved, he will still argue with God over the truth, before his being broken.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Unrepentant hearts and unbelief are both more linked with our own rebellion and disobedience than anything else. If we were to say that repentance and faith are 100% hand-outs, then we would have to at least associate God with the cause for the sin of unbelief and rebellion of the lost, because God left them that way. That I am not willing to do.

Waynem, I respect your position, but do not agree with it. You hold to a particular theology that takes a small number of scriptures to back it up. Though I cannot dispute the scriptures you use, I can dispute the way that you view them and try to make a case. If I am accused of not believing in predestination, that is a false accusation. I believe in it.....but I question how some perceive it. To go as far as to say that man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation I strongly oppose. I will also continue to believe that faith involves consent of the will otherwise we are just left with a mental assent to bible facts with no intent on acting on them.

For most of my life I was a believer, ever since I was a young child I was taught the 10 Commandments and all the fun bible stories up to Jesus. I believed in God. But it was'nt until 1995 that a bible believing man came into my life and I found myself to be a hypocrite. God's will for my life was not my concern and I had a passive attitude towards sin. I was in rebellion. I had never repented so I was an unrepentant believer......sounds like an oxymoron, but it is'nt. My believing was hypocritical because I had never come to God in sincere repentance for my rebellion to him. I was lost and never even had the spirit of God. By Gods grace He was patient and waited for me to realize that I was still in my sin and that I needed to repent. I thank him for bringing that bible-believing man into my life to help show me my real status. I was left with a decision to make: Repent, turn from my sin and position of rebellion to God and turn to God and His will for my life or just continue on living my same old life. To make a long story short I ended up repenting and then going to be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus and sometime afterwards the Holy Spirit began to be a more identifiable part of my life.

In conclusion, I see God as providing the way and waiting on a satisfactory response from us. When He is satisfied with our response then the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and helps us to transform into Christ-likeness. Then we would become born-again....not born-again first and then repentance and faith towards Christ.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Your words:

"In conclusion, I see God as providing the way and waiting on a satisfactory response from us. When He is satisfied with our response then the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and helps us to transform into Christ-likeness. Then we would become born-again....not born-again first and then repentance and faith towards Christ."

In your words above, you apparently do not agree with Jesus because you have reversed the process by which a man must be saved.

First comes regeneration by the Holy Spirit as we can see even as far back as Ezekiel where God shows us that unless He gives us a new heart, we can't be saved.

Ezekiel 11:19, "And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them.

And they shall be my people, and I will be their God."

The "heart of stone" means the one we are born with in our Fallen nature. That heart cannot respond to the call of God . . . will not respond to the call of God . . . is opposed to God, in fact, hates God.

The new "heart of flesh" is the regenerated (recreated) heart by the Holy Spirit. This heart can "hear" the words of God, is attracted to them, loves God's truth . . . a complete reversal of the Fallen heart.

That's what Jesus was trying to get Nicodemus to understand.
John 3:3-6, "Jesus answered him, 'Truly,truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus said to him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?'

Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

That which is Born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'"

If you read down a few more verses you learn that Nicodemus was the teacher of Israel. That means he was the head of the entire religious men of his day, and when a large group of them were in a dispute, they went to Nicodemus because his knowledge of the Law (the Torah) was so great.

And, yet, he didn't have a clue about what Jesus was teaching him about salvation.

In conclusion: The Bible tells you that the Holy Spirit must regenerate your heart FIRST; then, God can give you the gift of faith (justification). Then you want to fall on your knees before Him and repent of your evil.

That's the Bible's revelation of how salvation works, and only those whom the Spirit regenerates (the Elect) can believe and be saved.

The rest will be lost to eternal damnation in terrible darkness and torment.

That's why we should be very thankful to God for "His unspeakable gift," and tell everyone we can about salvation through the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jiggyfly
Advanced Member
Member # 6972

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jiggyfly     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WildB are you familiar with Moltmann's theology? I was interested in conversing about his theology with others. I have read some of his books. I wasn't trying to get info about him.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 1 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jürgen Moltmann
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jürgen Moltmann (born April 8, 1926) is a German Protestant theologian.

* 1 Moltmann's Youth
* 2 World War II
* 3 Theology in the camps
* 4 Returning home
* 5 Influences
* 6 Theology
* 7 Bibliography in English
* 8 Secondary Bibliography
* 9 Footnotes
* 10 References
* 11 External links

[edit] Moltmann's Youth

Moltmann was born in Hamburg, Germany. He described his German upbringing as thoroughly secular. His grandfather was a grand master of the Freemasons. At sixteen, Moltmann idolized Albert Einstein, and anticipated studying mathematics at university. The physics of relativity were "fascinating secrets open to knowledge"; theology as yet played no role in his life.

[edit] World War II

He took his entrance exam to proceed with his education, but went to war instead as an Air Force auxiliary in the German army. "The 'iron rations' in the way of reading matter which I took with me into the miseries of war were Goethe's poems and the works of Nietzsche."[1] He was actually drafted into military service in 1944, when he became a soldier in the German army. Ordered to the Reichswald, a German forest at the front lines, he surrendered in 1945 in the dark to the first British soldier he met. For the next few years (1945-48), he was confined as a prisoner of war and moved from camp to camp.

[edit] Theology in the camps

He was first confined in Belgium. In the camp at Belgium, the prisoners were given little to do. Moltmann and his fellow prisoners were tormented by "memories and gnawing thoughts" — Moltmann claimed to have lost all hope and confidence in German culture because of Auschwitz and Buchenwald (concentration camps where Jews and others the Nazis opposed had been imprisoned and killed). They also glimpsed photographs nailed up confrontationally in their huts, bare photographs of Buchenwald and Bergen-Belsen concentration camp.[2] Moltmann claimed his remorse was so great, he often felt he would have rather died along with many of his comrades than live to face what their nation had done.

Moltmann met a group of Christians in the camp, and was given a small copy of the New Testament and Psalms by an American chaplain. He gradually felt more and more identification with and reliance on the Christian faith. Moltmann later claimed, "I didn't find Christ, he found me."

After Belgium, he was transferred to a POW camp in Kilmarnock, Scotland, where he worked with other Germans to rebuild areas damaged in the bombing. The hospitality of the Scottish residents toward the prisoners left a great impression upon him. In July of 1946, he was transferred for the last time to Norton Camp, a British prison located near Nottingham, UK. The camp was operated by the YMCA and here Moltmann met many students of theology. At Norton Camp, he discovered Reinhold Niebuhr's Nature and Destiny of Man — it was the first book of theology he had ever read, and Moltmann claimed it had a huge impact on his life.

[edit] Returning home

Moltmann returned home at 22 years of age to find his hometown of Hamburg (in fact, his entire country) in ruins from Allied bombing in World War II. Moltmann immediately went to work in an attempt to express a theology that would reach what he called "the survivors of [his] generation". Moltmann had hope that the example of the "Confessing Church" during the war would be repeated in new ecclesiastical structures. He and many others were disappointed to see, instead, a rebuilding on pre-war models in a cultural attempt to forget entirely the recent period of deadly hardship.

In 1947, he and four others were invited to attend the first postwar Student Christian Movement in Swanwick, a conference center near Derby. What happened there affected him very deeply. Moltmann returned to Germany to study at the University of Göttingen, an institution whose professors were followers of Karl Barth and theologians who were engaged with the confessing [non-state] church in Germany.

Since his studies at Göttingen ended, Moltmann has continued to speak and write concerning his views of theology.

[edit] Influences

Moltmann cites the English theologian Studdert Kennedy as being highly regarded and relies on Ernst Bloch in his important Theology of Hope. In the Spring 2004 Pneuma, Moltmann cites the Johann and Christoph Blumhardt as being major contributors to his thought.

[edit] Theology

The early Moltmann can be seen in his trilogy, Theology of Hope (1964), The Crucified God (1972), and The Church in the Power of the Spirit (1975):

* Theology of Hope was strongly influenced by the eschatological orientation of the marxist philosopher, Ernst Bloch's The Principle of Hope.
* The Crucified God posited that God died on the Cross, raising the question of the impassibility of God.
* The Church in the Power of the Spirit explores the implications of these explorations for the church in its own life and in the world.

This early phase has been compared to the liberation theologies predominantly found in Latin America at that time. The later Moltmann took a more systematic approach to theology, seen by some as less radical and less challenging.

[edit] Bibliography in English

Some of Moltmann's works that are available in English include:

* Theology of Hope: On the Ground and the Implications of a Christian Eschatology, SCM Press, London, 1967
* The Gospel of Liberation, Word, Waco, Texas, 1973
* The Crucified God: The Cross of Christ As the Foundation and Criticism of Christian Theology, SCM Press, London, 1973
* Man: Christian Anthropology in the Conflicts of the Present, SPCK, London, 1974
* The Church in the Power of the Spirit: A Contribution to Messianic Ecclesiology, SCM Press, London, 1975
* The Experiment Hope, SCM Press, London, 1975
* The Open Church, SCM Press, London, 1978
* The Future of Creation, SCM Press, London, 1979
* The Trinity and the Kingdom: The Doctrine of God, Harper and Row, New York, 1981
* History and the Triune God: Contributions to Trinitarian Theology
* God in Creation, SCM Press, London, 1985
* The Way of Jesus Christ
* The Spirit of Life: A Universal Affirmation, SCM Press, London, 1992
* The Coming of God: Christian Eschatology, Fortress, Minneapolis, 1996.
* The Source of Life, SCM Press, London, 1997
* Experiences in Theology: ways and forms of Christian Theology, SCM Press, London, 2000
* Science and Wisdom, SCM Press, London, 2003
* In the End the Beginning, SCM Press, London, 2004
* Is “Pluralistic Theology” Useful for the Dialogue of World Religions?" in D’Costa, Gavin, Christian Uniqueness Reconsidered (Maryknoll, NY: Orbis Books, 1990

[edit] Secondary Bibliography

* Moltmann: Messianic Theology in the Making, by Richard Bauckham, Basingstoke, Marshall Pickering, 1987
* God, Hope, and History: Jurgen Moltmann and the Christian Concept of History, by A. J. Conyers, 1988
* The Creative Suffering of God, by Paul S. Fiddes, Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1988
* The Theology of Jurgen Moltmann, by Richard Bauckham, Edinburgh, T & T Clark, 1995
* The Future of Theology: Essays in Honour of Jurgen Moltmann, ed. M. Volf, 1996
* God Will Be All in All: The Eschatology of Jurgen Moltmann, ed. Richard Bauckham, Edinburgh, T & T Clark, 1999
* Disavowing Constantine: Mission, Church and the Social Order in the Theologies of John H. Yoder and Jurgen Moltmann, by Nigel Wright, Carlisle, Paternoster, 2000
* The Kingdom and the Power: The Theology of Jurgen Moltmann, by Geiko Muller-Fahrenholz, 2001

[edit] Footnotes

1. ^ The items were a gift from his sister. In other places, Moltmann mentions that "Faust" was included in the collection of Goethe's poetry.
2. ^ The initial reaction of the prisoners to these photos was that they were British propaganda.

[edit] References

* Jürgen Moltmann, "Why am I a Christian?" in Experiences of God (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1980).
* Jürgen Moltmann, "An Autobiographical Note" in A. J. Conyers, God, Hope and History: Jürgen Moltmann and the Christian Concept of History (Macon, GA: Mercer University Press, 1988).
* Jürgen Moltmann, Foreword to M. Douglas Meeks, Origins of the Theology of Hope (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1974).
* Jürgen Moltmann, address given at Nazarene Theological Seminary, Dec. 10, 2001.
* Jürgen Moltmann, "Stubborn Hope", interviewer Christopher A. Hall, Christianity Today, vol. 37, no. 1 (Jan. 11, 1993).

[edit] External links

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jiggyfly
Advanced Member
Member # 6972

Icon 1 posted      Profile for jiggyfly     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anyone here familiar with Jurgen Moltmann's theology?
Posts: 23 | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Prayer]

quote:
In your quote above, you object to those who want to "nail down their theology," but God's word says in 2 Timothy 2:15, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."

Do your best? Do you not know that your best does not even approach good enough?

"Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."(2Ti 2:14)

Then it says to study to show thyself approved unto God. Study to show thyself, unto God - approved, rightly dividing the word. That would include Theology. Dividing the word will yield anyone a Theology. Theology that comes short of who He is, is not rightly divided. It becomes one's snare unless it approves one 'unto' God. Regrettably, one becomes proud of his Theology. Even more regrettably, one doesn't recognize that pride is the very signature of error inherent. It should be recognizable in the light of the word, and should encourage one to seek deeper.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CWO4GUNNER
Advanced Member
Member # 6971

Icon 1 posted      Profile for CWO4GUNNER     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Let us then praise God in the highest, that although he doesn't need us, he loves and uses us to preach the simple message that the world stumbles on and considers foolish. Man is a lier but God is faithful and God's word will prevail and will be done in earth and heaven in spite of our weak use of his message and our filthy righteousness. Jesus Christ has save us from this body of death, so long as we abide in him.

"scythewieldor: Or, is it stuff that omits the commands of Jesus and the Holy Spirit making the church a comfortable place for the worldly.

Posts: 54 | From: Bullhead City, AZ | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 1 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
scythewieldor [thumbsup2]

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scythewieldor
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dear friends,
When I was about 28 years old, I was trying to get into "the full-time ministry". I asked the Lord what I should teach: once saved-always saved, rapture, speaking in tongues, whatever else there is?
His response was so clear. "Teach what I said to teach."
I thought, "I should know this one."
Hmmmm.
That would be:
  • Bless those that curse you.
  • Do good to those who despitefully use you.
  • Lend expecting nothing again.
  • Love your enemies.
  • Teach the gentiles to observe the things whatsoever I have commanded you.
  • Sell what you have and give alms.
  • Do not lay up for yourselves riches on earth.

You get the picture.
Later, as I was reading Paul's letters to Timothy and Titus, I found some things the Holy Spirit said to teach. However the things we are supposed to teach are all instructions about how to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.
You can't make a living off of people when you are limited to that stuff. Even Paul, in Acts, chapter 20, only took about 3 years to teach the Ephesian overseers all the counsel of God. And he maintained a job, working with his hands, while he did that.
Clearly, Paul was in the full-time ministry in a world-changing way.

So, the denominations are not limiting themselves to "the counsels of God". They are offering licensed franchises for retail theology outlets and feel-good stations. Certainly, they use scriptures. However, they stay away from the instructional ones and focus on the informational ones.
Informational scriptures (scriptures that refer to history, wisdom, and prophecy) are very open to interpretation. A tweak here and an emphasis there and a little "things have changed in 2000 years" in another place, and you can really put together some ticklish stuff- even, sensational stuff.
But, is it the stuff that turns the world upside- down. Or, is it stuff that omits the commands of Jesus and the Holy Spirit making the church a comfortable place for the worldly.
I don't need the "just stuff" stuff.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
(I knew that the truth would come out about some of you internet police.)


"Ok! When someone tries to nail down their theology, what they are doing is forming the boundries wherein they feel secure and comfortable. They fill those boundries with the likeminded with whom they can associate securely so that they can feel reinforced. But the life that is Christ is beyond theology because it is the life tht IS Christ. It is a faith/revelation thing. The denomination IS Christ. The understanding IS Christ. It is the life on the rock (not rocks, or sinking sand). Thereafter, every wind of doctrine (Eph4:14) becomes insignificant, for the person of whom their life consists, is established unto them in a unique way. Celebrate!

"

Hi Michael,

In your quote above, you object to those who want to "nail down their theology," but God's word says in 2 Timothy 2:15, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."

The dictionary defines theology as the study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions, especially those posed by Christianity.

I hope you won't give up on the process of honest investigation into the truths of the Bible.

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CWO4GUNNER
Advanced Member
Member # 6971

Icon 1 posted      Profile for CWO4GUNNER     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I want to add a point to a verse that lonlesol posted above because it hit me and underscores an important truth. But first let me say it is important within our core Christin beliefs to know what we believe and why we believe it, these things I don't have to repeat here because you already know them. They are the beliefs that separates all of Christendom from the cults. Beyond this all our disagreements are trivial and fall far far behind our duty which is first and foremost that Christ is preached. Paul and Timothy made a very good point in Phil 1: 15-18 and that is if there is going to be strife among believers, let it be over the good news of Christ being preached. Paul was comfortable with this because he knew that even though we (man) is prone to being unfaithful and a lier, but God is always faithful and true. So even though my spirit gets stirred up over those that preach the Gospel in ways I don't agree, I never let it bother my sleep anymore because God's and his word is faithful like a two edged sword and the very reason I was saved while a catholic by just reading the catholic Bible. Praise God, let every man be a lier,but let God be true.

It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. Phil 1: 15-18

What if some did not believe and were without faith? Does their lack of faith and their faithlessness nullify and make ineffective and void the faithfulness of God and His fidelity to His Word? By no means! Let God be found true though every human being is false and a liar, as it is written, That You God may be justified and shown to be upright in what You say, and prevail when You are judged by sinful men.
John 21:20-22

With respect to my earlier post I want to point out that Christians including myself have always had a bad habit of seeking comfort by trying to determine God's judment on other individuals and groups to make us feel secure. While it is a good thing to point out, quote and believe what the scriptures says in regards to judment it is none of our business to be excluding groups or individuals from salvation to satisfy our personal secure position with God, I have also done it in the past God forgive me. Nevertheless Jesus made this clear when he told Peter to mind his own business when he wanted to know what would happen to the betrayer (i.e.:is he going to hell lord?). Its not out judment, God will judge the world! Our job is to preach the good news of Jesus Christ crucified for the remission of sins.

But Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved, following--the one who also had leaned back on His breast at the supper and had said, Lord, who is it that is going to betray You? When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, Lord, what about this man? Jesus said to him, If I want him to stay (survive, live) until I come, what is that to you? [What concern is it of yours?] You follow Me!
John 21:20-22

Posts: 54 | From: Bullhead City, AZ | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jesus is my theology, not something about Him, save one!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi again Lonlesol,
This testimony that I am about to share is the first time I have shared it publicly on a christian site. I will need to share the whole story from start to present in order that you may believe and see God's hand in it.

In November of 2005 a co-worker friend of mine came up to me and asked me if I had heard the latest headline news. I said "no, now what?" Then he said "you never pay attention" then he went on to say that they arrested this guy Steven Avery for murder. He told me that he was the guy who caught national attention for being falsely imprisoned for over 16 yrs, and that he was also awaiting a big lawsuit case vs. State of WI. I said "that dont make any sense, what would be his motive?" My friend replied "because he must be either extremely stupid or nuts". Conversation ended and I was thinking about how the story did'nt seem to make sense.

In case you are wondering what this case is about....Teresa Halbach, a photographer from Hilbert, WI who worked for Auto Trader magazine went to Steven Avery's Auto Salvage yard to photo shoot some automobiles. This was the last time that she was seen by her family and friends and co-workers. The amount of physical evidence that was found on Steven Avery's property seemed to be enough to link him to the crime. He was arrested and then a year or so later was given a guilty sentence along with his nephew Brendon Dassey.

Well, anyways, the next day after I heard the news I decided to do a search on the internet to pick up the local news on the Teresa Halbach disappearance. I came upon a very peculiar article that stated that the search party that found Teresa Halbach's SUV on Steven Avery's property was headed by Teresa's ex-boyfriend. The ex-boyfriend also had made a comment to the News station that "she will be missed". I thought that was a strange thing to say considering Teresa Halbach was still only considered missing at that time. The next day I decided to call the FBI and share with them the information I found, and tell them that there could be the possibility that they have arrested the wrong guy in connection with Teresa Halbach's assumed death. They did express an interest and they ended up contacting the local Green Bay Field Office FBI.

A few days later I had a vision (I was awake before it began) in the night. The first vision was of a body of woods. I was being carried over the top of the woods so I was looking down at them from an ariel position. It was night time but a light was shining down so I could see clearly that it was a wooded area. The vision suddenly ended and then there was this brief moment of silence before the next vision opened up. Suddenly in the next vision I realized that I was on a beach. There was a light shining so I could see the sand for a good distance in both directions. Then all of a sudden after I realized what I saw then this vision suddenly ended and there was another brief moment of silence.......then suddenly a word was spoken, and that word was "shoe". It was as if the word stretched out and carried over water--but without an echo. I jumped out of bed and the first thing I did was find a Wisconsin map. I wanted to see if there was a wooded beach area near Steven Avery's property. To my astonishment, there indeed was, and it was located only a few miles down the road from Avery's property. It was a state forest area that joined up with the Lake Michigan beach. My next thought was "Oh my God" (in a good way) could it be that Teresa was murdered in that area and one of her shoes flew off?

I decided to call the FBI again. I knew they would think it quite strange that I was calling with a "dream", but I believed that I needed to do it. I told them that maybe they should have a search party down by the State Forest Lake Michigan area, which is quite close to the Avery Property. I had believed it would be a good idea to rule out any other possibilities.

Well, to fast foward a little more I found that the Milwaukee Branch FBI thought seriously about what I had told them, but the Green Bay FBI was not as interested claiming that the local police are "good and dependable guys" and they would not carelessly put the wrong guy in jail. I eventually was told by the Green Bay FBI that I was the crazy and obsessed one.

I was determined not to give up on the vision. I was able to get a hold of the ex-boyfriend's adress so I decided that I needed to send him a letter. I wrote to him detailing out the vision that I had which came in three distinct parts. The body of woods, the sandy beach, and the word "shoe". I recommended that if he is party to the crime that he let's out the truth for the freedom of the falsely accused, and that he be reconciled to God.

Today, I am still waiting to see the convicting power of the Word of God come to fruition. Perhaps God revealed something to me that no one else could possibly know save except God and the criminal. I do not know for sure, but there is hope in me that burns like a flame--desiring to see that day where we all can begin to digest the truth that God does really care and love us--and that the Holy Spirit has not abandoned us.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and on my handsmaidens I will pour out in those days of my spirit; and they shall prophesy....

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

Icon 15 posted      Profile for becauseHElives   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yahweh couldn’t care less about anything than He does your or my theology.

Yahweh is looking for hearts perfect toward Him…

2 Chronicles 16:9
For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars…

Philippians 1:15
Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

Do I love Yahweh with all my heart, mind body and soul ?
Do I love my neighbor as I love myself?

Is Yeshua’s Blood all I come before Yahweh with for my acceptance into sonship?

Because someone does or doesn’t believe in the teaching of Predestination, the Trinity or some other petty doctrine exclude them from Yeshua’s Love?

Read Ephesians 4 pay close attention to verse 2 and verse 13…

quote:
Michael Harrison made several very good Spiritually discerned statements…
Michael said….The argument for 'correct theology' is the very reason why we have a burgeoning array of denominations, each of whom has 'the correct theology'.

This is one reason for the Body of Christ being such a reproach in the earth today,
The Baptist say they are right,
The Pentecost say they are right,
The Methodist say they are right,
The Assemblies of God say they are right,
The Mennonites say they are right,
The Amish say they are right,

If I left some denomination out, you can fill them in all are the same.

They all divide the Body of Christ…

Where is the … With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. …

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ephesians 4
1I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20But ye have not so learned Christ;
21If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

[/QUOTE] Michael also said….. Ok! When someone tries to nail down their theology, what they are doing is forming the boundaries wherein they feel secure and comfortable. They fill those boundaries with the likeminded with whom they can associate securely so that they can feel reinforced. But the life that is Christ is beyond theology because it is the life that IS Christ. It is a faith/revelation thing. [/QUOTE]

I assure you Yahweh is bigger than any of our theology!

Yahweh can not be put in a “Once Saved, always Saved “ box!

Yahweh can not be put in a “Predestination” box!

As sure as you say Yahweh can’t do this or that He will show you different!


[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

I CERTAINLY THOUGHT THIS WAS ENLIGHTENING. BEYOND OUR SUN ... IT'S A BIG UNIVERSE.

[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]

Photobucket


ANTARES IS THE 15TH BRIGHTEST STAR IN THE SKY.
IT IS MORE THAN 1000 LIGHT YEARS AWAY.
NOW HOW BIG ARE YOU?
------------------------------------------------------------------

NOW TRY TO WRAP YOUR MIND AROUND THIS.........


THIS IS A HUBBLE TELESCOPE ULTRA DEEP FIELD INFRAR ED VIEW OF COUNTLESS
'ENTIRE' GALAXIES BILLIONS OF LIGHT-YEARS AWAY.

Photobucket

BELOW IS A CLOSE UP OF ONE OF THE DARKEST REGIONS OF THE PHOTO ABOVE .


[IMG]Photobucket[/IMG]


HUMBLING, ISN'T IT?


And yet, Someone knows how many hairs are on your head,

and not even a single sparrow dies apart from His will (Mt 10:29 -31)!


NOW HOW BIG ARE YOU?
AND HOW BIG ARE THE THINGS THAT UPSET YOU TODAY?


AND HOW BIG IS YOUR GOD?

KEEP LIFE IN PERSPECTIVE.

IT'S ALL UNDER CONTROL (Job 38)

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lonlesol   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hello oneinchrist...I am holding on to God's Word as much as I possibly can!...take your time, and I thank you in advance... [hug]


I have been reading this book called: ''Discern the will of the Lord in your life''...written by Paul C. Jong...anyone can get this book for free through the internet...

It is written in very simple words but pretty good in itself...there is this chapter in the book that describes exactly what I have been going through these past few years, with minor differences...as if this particular chapter was written for me!...I am typing it at this moment and will post it once I am done...


It is based on Luke 12:49-53


Luke 12:49-53 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Not Peace but Division
49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi lonlesol,
How are you doing? It's been a while since we last talked. Of course I will share with you some of the ways in which the Holy Spirit has become more identifiable in my life. Please give me a little time to collect my thoughts and do some writing so that I can share with you some of my testimony. Thank you.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scythewieldor
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Praise God, dear friends,
Just yesterday morning I woke up with my son-in law's spiritual condition on my heart. I did not know a scripture according to which I could pray with full assurance that my desire for my son-in-law's conversion was in agreement with the will of God. I asked God for that scripture, and He gave it through this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by CWO4GUNNER:

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Now I can know that I pray according to God's will, and that I have what I ask for when I give thanks that God is not willing that Nate should perish. but that he should come to repentance.
Glory to God.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lonlesol   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
...and sometime afterwards the Holy Spirit began to be a more identifiable part of my life.
oneinchrist......Can you please give me an explanation on this?...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When someone tries to nail down their theology and enlist others, what they are doing is forming the boundries wherein they feel secure and comfortable (which they can relate to). They fill those boundries with the likeminded, with whom they can associate securely, without contest, so that they can feel reinforced in their belief. But the life that is Christ is beyond theology, because it is the life that IS Christ.

"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."(Joh 7:16)

It is a faith/revelation thing. The denomination IS Christ Himself. The understanding IS Christ. It is the life on the rock (not rocks, or sinking sand). Thereafter, every wind of doctrine (Eph4:14) becomes insignificant, for the person of whom their life consists is established unto them in a unique way. C!

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
CWO4GUNNER
Advanced Member
Member # 6971

Icon 1 posted      Profile for CWO4GUNNER     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It never ceases to amaze me how foolish we can be when we take one line of scripture to build an entire religious theology in our own minds to affect the masses. From one verse (“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.") you imagine doctrine to fulfill the lust and envy of your own harts as being worth more then many others who according to you are chosen for destruction. Must make you feel pretty proud and I'm sure you will convince quite a few lofty harts, but do you think God will buy it? Will you proudly accept eternal damnation because in spite of your sincere conviction of being singled out if God informs you that by the very verse you were sincerely mistaken and are not chosen. Will you so proudly accept your own dogma and proudly walk the fires of hell.

I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow. "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'Luke 19:21-23

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

Posts: 54 | From: Bullhead City, AZ | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Unrepentant hearts and unbelief are both more linked with our own rebellion and disobedience than anything else. If we were to say that repentance and faith are 100% hand-outs, then we would have to at least associate God with the cause for the sin of unbelief and rebellion of the lost, because God left them that way. That I am not willing to do.

Waynem, I respect your position, but do not agree with it. You hold to a particular theology that takes a small number of scriptures to back it up. Though I cannot dispute the scriptures you use, I can dispute the way that you view them and try to make a case. If I am accused of not believing in predestination, that is a false accusation. I believe in it.....but I question how some perceive it. To go as far as to say that man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation I strongly oppose. I will also continue to believe that faith involves consent of the will otherwise we are just left with a mental assent to bible facts with no intent on acting on them.

For most of my life I was a believer, ever since I was a young child I was taught the 10 Commandments and all the fun bible stories up to Jesus. I believed in God. But it was'nt until 1995 that a bible believing man came into my life and I found myself to be a hypocrite. God's will for my life was not my concern and I had a passive attitude towards sin. I was in rebellion. I had never repented so I was an unrepentant believer......sounds like an oxymoron, but it is'nt. My believing was hypocritical because I had never come to God in sincere repentance for my rebellion to him. I was lost and never even had the spirit of God. By Gods grace He was patient and waited for me to realize that I was still in my sin and that I needed to repent. I thank him for bringing that bible-believing man into my life to help show me my real status. I was left with a decision to make: Repent, turn from my sin and position of rebellion to God and turn to God and His will for my life or just continue on living my same old life. To make a long story short I ended up repenting and then going to be baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus and sometime afterwards the Holy Spirit began to be a more identifiable part of my life.

In conclusion, I see God as providing the way and waiting on a satisfactory response from us. When He is satisfied with our response then the Holy Spirit comes into our lives and helps us to transform into Christ-likeness. Then we would become born-again....not born-again first and then repentance and faith towards Christ.

Acts 5:32 And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scythewieldor
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dear friends,
quote:
1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 Cor 8:1 ¶ Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.


IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
waynemlj
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Waynemlj,
I would like to ask you a question that relates to something you said in your last post to me.....about the "gift of faith".......

How about the lost/unbelieving? are they one's who refuse to repent and believe, or are they one's to whom God does not desire to give the gift of repentance and the gift of faith? Your answer to this question will help me to understand your position better.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Hi Daniel,

Just got back to the computer!

The answer to your question here is actually both of those choices you asked about.

The New Testament (as well as the Old Testament) everywhere reveals the fact that salvation is a predeternined choice of God.

The Father chose (elected) those whom He sent His Son (by their joint covenant) to earth to die for and save from the Father's wrath against sinful hearts.

If we even look at these words from Jesus to His apostles, we can see the same meaning.

John 15:16, "You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you . . . "

God does the choosing for His own perfect reasons. That's what is meant by Limited Atonement.

The Father sent the Son to die in the place of the Elect (and only the Elect) to save them from the eternal punishment for their disobedience which would mean being cast into the outer darkness and torment of hell.

First, as Jesus told Nicodemus, "You have to be born again." Then you can receive the gift of faith to believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior.

John 3;3, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

And if that hasn't happened to our neighbor, we our powerless to convince him of the urgency to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hope this helps.

waynemlj

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eden
unregistered


Icon 5 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Michael Harrison said
quote:
It is something that you participate in with the doer, by faith.
When I found out I couldn't be good, I quit trying to be good. When I got out of the way, the Holy Spirit got going.

love, eden

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 8 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
(You preach the most precious truth unspeakable in glory, and rather than laying hold, the hearers clinch harder the lardar [Frown] ))
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Michael Harrison     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The truth is not something that you 'do', because you cannot. It is something that you participate in with the doer, by faith.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Message Board | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

Christian Chat Network

New Message Boards - Click Here