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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The “falling away” or apostasy of 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, seems well underway in our time.

Can Antichrist, the ultimate deceiver, be far behind in galloping onto the stage of end-time history?

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I suggest we go to any random church supper, and I'm sure we will find the mother lode of "cackling women".

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
HisGrace, I am aware that tapes, images and such can be alter, but am not aware of this about the "cackling woman" could you give me some resources in which I can see what you are talking about.

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Someone provided a link a year ago or so. I have looked all over for it, but it is like for a needle in a haystack.

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Grace;

I suggest we go to any random church supper, and I'm sure we will find the mother lode of "cackling women".

Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
HisGrace, I am aware that tapes, images and such can be alter, but am not aware of this about the "cackling woman" could you give me some resources in which I can see what you are talking about.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
I can't believe that mature, educated people in the 21st century would fall for this sort of garbage. If you do, the devil really has you deceived. Absolutey ridiculous. Come on folks - don't fall into this trap.

Watch for the cackling woman gang. She goes to every convention. You can't miss her - she probably will be at the very front of every video.

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The video is compilied of unaltered clips of Paul Crouch, Rodney Howard-Browne, Benny Hinn, Jan Crouch, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Steve Brock, Steve Hill, John Avanzini, and more...

You'll be shocked, stupefied, appalled, disgusted, and saddened all in one as you watch the outrageous antics of well-known Christian celebrities and their untold thousands of gullible followers.

You'll shake your head in dismay as you see men barking like dogs and being led around on leashes; women howling like wolves and braying like donkeys; and profanity shouted from the pulpit.

You'll recoil in astonishment to discover supposed Christian leaders scoffing at Bible doctrine; a televangelist and his associates sharing an opium smoking pipe ; possessed people slithering like serpents at crusades; and thousands of worshippers blasphemously speaking in false tongues and breaking out in roaring, hysterical laughter...

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I can't believe that mature, educated people in the 21st century would fall for this sort of garbage. If you do, the devil really has you deceived. Absolutey ridiculous. Come on folks - don't fall into this trap.

Watch for the cackling woman gang. She goes to every convention. You can't miss her - she probably will be at the very front of every video.

BTW if you would use the 'url' feature for your links we won't get such wide margins.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Is there something you do to get it to print that info and I dont know the trick or do you type that every time?

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I certainly can see that God allowed Job to become completely stripped of all he had. What I dont see is how this supports the idea that God's power was not free to work until Job had done all he could humanly do. In fact the whole story of Job to me is contrary to this thought.

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Point taken about my choice of 'sources' but at least you know (from experience) that the things that lecturer was talking about are real. I can't promise that I won't ever use a questionable source again (even though I believe the clips on that DVD are authentic).

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I have in the past given many 'quotes' of those teachers, complete with references to the tapes, dates, and transcripts they came from, only to be told that the quotes were too old...

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Oh well, I can only try and if folks dismiss the articles I post, maybe they'll listen to your first hand experience? However, I know that some will not... In the end all we can do is be faithful to expose the lies and the job of Convicting the heart belongs to God alone

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
You said we need the Gospel truth, show us the Gospel truth that says that God's power alone be free to work, only when human effort has done its best and failed.

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The most priceless video is the one where that weird-looking cackling woman is strategically placed in the front of the camera and manages to make it to all of their revivals.

Same video - different WOF speaker. A real joke.

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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I give up folks. Corrie Ten Boom was one of the most saintly women who ever lived, and to treat her with such great disrespect is another exercise in grossly manipulating the words of a truly Holy Spirit-guided woman.

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
I Don't watch TV preachers, but that doesn't mean that I haven't seen PLENTY of clips of these preachers preaching their heresy. I've said this Many Times on this BBS... but of course you wouldn't bother telling that part...

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Excuse me HisGrace but you're wrong. I have Heard and Seen Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland make these claims of being 'little god men' and 'little messiahs'

I Stand by what I posted. It is the Truth and Much of the WF teaching is straight out of Gnosticism/New Ageism. That is The Truth.

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From Soft Touch - Sorry guys, I'm not familiar with her. I don't really read Christian books or watch preachers on TV. I was just reacting to that quote... it just sounded really Off.

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Hhmmmm. Also, 'sounded' isn't good enough. We need the Gospel Truth.

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LOL!!!! How LONG did it take you to Dig this up just to try to show I'm a liar (which I'm not). No, I Don't watch TV preachers, but that doesn't mean that I haven't seen PLENTY of clips of these preachers preaching their heresy. I've said this Many Times on this BBS... but of course you wouldn't bother telling that part...

In fact, I have a growing library of DVD's that expose these types of things. These are Not 'digitally altered' or 'cut and pasted' together clips... these are very clear and concise and show plainly the False Teaching and False Manifestations (which are Anything But Holy Spirit driven). In fact, Linda has a couple of these DVD's right now. I'm sure she's gonna Flip when she sees Mrs. Benny Hinn telling folks they need 'a holy gost enema'

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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

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Hhmmmm. Also, 'sounded' isn't good enough. We need the Gospel Truth.

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" Sometimes when human nature has done its best and failed, God's power alone is free to work."

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Once again they considered stopping the work. Once again we discovered we could not.

That night Father, Betsie and I prayed long after the others had gone to bed. We knew that in spite of daily mounting risks we had no choice but to move forward. This was evil's hour; we could not run away from it. Perhaps only when human effort had done its best and failed, would God's power alone be free to work."

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Excuse me HisGrace but you're wrong. I have Heard and Seen Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland make these claims of being 'little god men' and 'little messiahs'

I Stand by what I posted. It is the Truth and Much of the WF teaching is straight out of Gnosticism/New Ageism. That is The Truth.

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From Soft Touch - Sorry guys, I'm not familiar with her. I don't really read Christian books or watch preachers on TV. I was just reacting to that quote... it just sounded really Off.

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Hhmmmm. Also, 'sounded' isn't good enough. We need the Gospel Truth.

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True Jesus Christ went to the grave with Authority. The battle of battles was won, but Satan didn't accept defeat, he still hasn't accepted defeat. It is a struggle. Satan knows his time is short. Even though he knows he is doomed to the Lake of Fire, he will continue to fight and attack Christ until the End. Satan attacks Christians and has never stopped. He is not an honest enemy. He is the father of lies, murderer, the thief, who comes to rob, kill and destroy. He attacks us even now, and we continue the battles.

Satan is forced to accept the Authority of Christ. He has no choice. Yet , he still can cause havoc in those who are not saved and in Christians who start believing his lies.

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Satan is forced to accept the Authority of Christ. He has no choice. Yet , he still can cause havoc in those who are not saved and in Christians who start believing his lies.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

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but he gained victory over the cross and death through his resurrection.

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Christ gained victory over the cross and over death through his resurrection?

I would say that because of HIS victory on the cross death could not hold him and thus the Spirit of God raised HIM, and because HE was raised you have hope also of rising.

Your victory and mine over sin in the flesh is one the cross and our victory over death are in HIS rising.

His victory was complete on the cross.


The difference in my view and copeland's view is that Copeland saw that Jesus after he had died had to go into hell and battle the devil and all his demons to take the authority over hell from the devil. I believe that Jesus went into the grave with that authority.

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

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2 Corinthians 11: 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

His victory was complete on the cross.


The difference in my view and copeland's view is that Copeland saw that Jesus after he had died had to go into hell and battle the devil and all his demons to take the authority over hell from the devil. I believe that Jesus went into the grave with that authority.

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From helpforhomeschoolers -His victory was complete on the cross

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but he gained victory over the cross and death through his resurrection.

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
1. Jesus did not die a spiritual death. The Bible teaches that Jesus died in the flesh, defeating sin in the flesh and that his very much alive and living spirit was commended unto the hand of the father.

2. The cross is not the place of defeat. The cross is the place of victory.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
When I look at the very root of all the doctrinal problems that I see with WOF, I come back to what I see as the central error of their teaching and that error is the nature of Christ. All other error in WOF stems IMO from this error, and it is of the same nature of error that the great apologists of the first 3 centuries spoke against.

1. Jesus did not die a spiritual death. The Bible teaches that Jesus died in the flesh, defeating sin in the flesh and that his very much alive and living spirit was commended unto the hand of the father.

2. The cross is not the place of defeat. The cross is the place of victory.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Good Morning WHite Eagle.. it was not bait. Yes I agree with you that all of these that you listed are based on works. The point was not that their sites would look like copelands or anyone else's but that I could take basic information from their site and build a site that you could day the same thing about. I wanted to say that we have to see a whole picture because I can print on my site just what I want said and nothing more and give what ever impression I want to give.

My husband and I have business aquintances that are Mormon, and you can have a conversation with them and talk about Jesus, and talk about the gifts of the Spirit and talk about sin and talk about salvation and have a conversation just like you and I might have here and if you did not know that they were Mormons you would not know from the conversation. In High school my oldest daughter had a friend that was a Mormon. She lost her mom right after Graduation and so she spent a lot of time in our home over the years at holidays especially, and at our house there is always talk of God and Jesus and what he has done for us and how he is in our lives and this young woman can join in the conversation and you would never know that she was not of the same faith as you. My first job was in a denatal practice where there were 4 dentists. One of them a Mormon, and the same thing was true of him.. aside from the fact that he chided me for smoking and drinking coffee (which he did based on health reasons and not religious ones) you would not know that he was not Christian. And lastly my husband's DM for one of the companies he represents is a Mormon and the same thing is true with him, and even with him... he will have a cup of coffee or a coke with you.

But we know tha when these persons say JESUS... it is not the same Jesus that we have faith in. Even in looking at the Main LDS website you do not get the full jest of their beliefs about Christ!!! You have to read the book of Mormon to really get that. I have read the book of Mormon.

When we speak of WOF and those who teach it, I dont think that any of these people seeks to mislead anyone. I believe that they themselves are mislead. I believed that K Copeland for example believes that Jesus died a spiritual death on the cross and was born again in hell. I believe that he believes that he believes that Jesus had to fight demons in hell for the keys to the kingdom. I believe that when he preaches this (and there is a link to a video of him preaching this on his site) I believe that this subject has been discussed here at length and some maybe even you feels that this is insignificant and unimportant, but I believe that it is contrary to the scipture and when really examined it undermines the work of the cross and causes people to miss somethings that are important and GOD wanted us to get. So, I will preach against any man that preaches this... it matters not to me what his name.

What I find is that this teaching, which many if not all WOF teachers believe or teach colors their theology in other areas and leads to more error.

I have always appreciated that you desire people to see the spiritual lessons that are present in the scripture. You remind me of my brother Thunder, who I believe brought into my life to show me that balance that is there between the things literal and the things spiritual in the scrpture. We must have this balance. I agree with your stand against legalism.

But this balance cannot come at the expense of scrptural and doctrinal integrity. To allow it to do so is to make the same error as the pharisee, though it is made in the spiritual sense of things as opposed to the natural or earthly sense of things. While it may not for you come at the expense of scriptural integrity and doctrinal integrity, that is not the case with some. It is not the case with some who follow these WOF teachers, maybe because they do not have enough sound doctrine committed to their minds, hearts, brains etc.. but it is not so with many of the WOF teachers even more so... because for so many of them.. the love of the material things of this world has gotten in the way and the sale of books and tapes and the bringing in of dollars to feed the monster they have built have now become a stumbling block to the truth.

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I didn't mean that you intentionally were baiting me. I just saw another challenge from your post in a good way to seek out what the Mormons and other cults do say about Salvation and compare it to the WOF. I liked that kind of challenge because I want to find out for sure if what I assume is actually true about any given situation. Like the saying:
"Curiousity killed the cat....but satisfaction brought him back."LOL!

You are correct the Mormons are not talking about the same Jesus of Nazareth that we are. Just as Islam is not talking about the same Almighty God that we know from the Bible.


Mormons say somewhat all the right things until one gets more details such as from their book of Mormon. Their belief is saved by one's works. They in essensce preach to have faith in a Jesus, and then make sure one does all the right things to ensure their place in heaven.

By contrast the WOF teaches Salvation through the Christ and also teaches Christians how to have a personal relationship with God through Christ and the Holy Spirit as teacher. What comes out of our heart in the bottom line. Our words are important, because as James points out, our tongues are like the bridle of a horse or the rudder of a ship.

Does WOF get too hyper-faith? ie teaching about prosperity, blessings, ect through our words? Yes at times some of them do. I have watched Ken Copeland and have never heard him say things that are attributed to him by these heresy web sites. I feel his quotes are being taken out of the context of whatever his total message had been.

Example:

My pastor recently did a teaching about how Christians are the "Ark of the Covenant" carriers. That we carry the Ark within ourselves.

Sound heretical?

His basis for this connection is scriptural and logical. Paul says we have an advocate with the Father through Jesus Christ and are able to enter the most Holy Place. Paul teaches we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. That we have Christ in us. Jesus said to abide in Him and He will abide in us.

In the Old Testament the Ark of the Covenant was where God met man. Entering the Holy of Holies through God's demand for animal sacrifice and atonement for the sins of the people. In the New Covenant we met God through Christ and carry the Holy Spirit within us. Likened to the Ark as a picture. In Hebrews Paul outlines these pictural associations between the Old and the New.

The WOF does preach the true Gospel of Salvation and the one True Jesus.

That is why I have difficulty in having their ministries called Heresy.

If one wants to just point out that they disagree with their hyperfaith, and temper it to be more balanced to the trials and tribulations Christians are also promised in scripture, then fine. But it's not heresy.

Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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I am NOT NOT NOT of the mind that we are to be "poor" for the Lord. I have nothing against wealth. It is GOD who gives the power to get wealth. I believe that in this nation, we have been planted here with unbelievable opportunity to get wealth because we also had the freedom to use that wealth to send forth those who would take the Gospel and the word to the world and to take care of the church in this land that we are seen by the world and the unbeliever in this nation as truly blessed. But sadly, that is not the picture that is seen because we have not done as we ought with that power. We see a few shepherds with unbelievable wealth gotten from the sheeps with itching ears and a church at home that is in debt and in lack, and we see the 10% that the very wealthy shepherds give to "good works" very publically being thrown at those that are oppressed by the devourer where it is devoured. This is not the way of the apostles; it is not the way of the scripture. One error leads to the next and the whole lump is sick!!!

.05% of the money that is given worldwide to missions is spent in the area of the world where 97% of the unreached live!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
WOF is not based upon works, but fruit of the Spirit. We are created in the image of God, yet we are NOT gods.

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That's what many seem to be missing about the WOF. All of their views are very strongly Bible-based. Their message of "We are created in the image of God, yet we are NOT gods" has been ridiculously twisted by the press, done in the name of 'holiness.'

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
WOF is not based upon works, but fruit of the Spirit. We are created in the image of God, yet we are NOT gods.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Dear GOD, I pray for the desire to know above all things the WORD of your truth and eteem no man and no earthly thing above it and to stand against and endure all things for the sake of your name and your word your WORD, and to stand alone if need be. I pray that for each of you my brothers and sisters as well!

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

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