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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
What’s wrong with the Word Faith Teachers and their Doctrines? The following links will examine some of the popular Word Faith teachers, their stated beliefs, and hold them up to the light of God’s Holy Scripture… see for yourself:

Kenneth Copeland: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10copela.htm

Benny Hinn: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10hinn.htm

Paul Crouch: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10tbn.htm

Jesse Duplantis: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10duplan.htm

Marilyn Hickey: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10hickey.htm


Teachings and Movement:

The "Giving and Receiving" Doctrine (Seed Faith): http://www.ondoctrine.com/10giving.htm

The Toronto Blessing: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10toront.htm

Vineyard Fellowship (John Wimber): http://www.ondoctrine.com/10wimber.htm

Trinity Broadcasting Network: http://www.ondoctrine.com/10tbn.htm


A Little Information About “On Doctrine” http://www.ondoctrine.com/00about.htm

ONDOCTRINE.COM is the privately owned website of Gary A. Hand and is not affiliated with, managed by or controlled by any organization or group.
ONDOCTRINE.COM is not operated by or funded by any organization, corporation or entity of any type other than the individual owner.
ONDOCTRINE.COM does not solicit or accept funding of any type, either from grants or donations.
ONDOCTRINE.COM adheres to the Statement of Belief which is expressed on the BELIEF PAGE ( http://www.ondoctrine.com/00belief.htm ) which is a statement of personal conviction on the part of the owner.



So, who is Gary A. Hand?
Nobody in particular and of no special importance.

So, why do you think you know so much?
I have limited abilities, limited intellect and do not pretend to be an expert or final authority regarding the articles that I write, but I do take responsibility for what is stated. In the event that I misstate the facts or assume that which is untrue, I am willing to be corrected by a genuine presentation of the facts and will admit to the errors that I make.

So, what are your credentials and qualifications?
My qualifications to judge the doctrinal stance of any belief system are the same as those for any other Christian - the application of the Scripture as the word of God. I do not presume any higher authority. As for my credentials, I graduated from high school, obtained my A.A degree from Los Angeles Valley Junior College and my B.A. in history and political science from San Fernando Valley State College (since known as California State University at Northridge). I have no seminary degree. I spent 34 years with a national department store retailer, 26 years in management positions. I am a layman and am not a deacon or elder.

So, since you are not a church leader or a pastor, why do you think you have the credentials to criticize or judge those who are?
In relation to the questions that I may have in regards to the credentials and beliefs of others as spiritual leaders, I can only respond that the credentials of leaders are revealed in the doctrines that they teach and the character of a life as it relates to the standards of leadership stated in 1 Timothy 3:1-13. Those standards are inviolate in relation to leadership, to which there can be no recourse in the event of failure, except to step away from that position of leadership. A leader cannot be held to a standard of perfection in every aspect of life, just as any Christian cannot be perfect in this life, but those standards are absolute if a person is to retain a leadership position. The character and qualification of a leader are seen in the doctrines that are taught, by submission to the authority of the Scripture in relation to stated qualifications, and in the response to the mandate of the Scripture when failure to meet those qualifications is realized. Scripture is the judge of all.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
There are 'Exposing' threads popping up all over the place. You may try to argue with man, but just make certain you are not grieving the Holy Spirit folks.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
HisGrace:
There are 'Exposing' threads popping up all over the place. You may try to argue with man, but just make certain you are not grieving the Holy Spirit folks.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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I notice that His Grace has also started a thread in this section, so you yourself are "popping-up" threads in the exposed section.

Do you not see that God is grieved at those who wrest scriptures to support their pet interpretation for which it was never intended?

It is sad the multitudes who are being deceived by the putrid pablum of prosperity/positive confession proponents, and those who staunchly defend the falsely "annointed" with blinders on and their fingers stuck squarely in the ears of their heart.


2 Tim. 3:
6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10: But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11: Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


http://www.worldviewweekend.com/secure/cwnetwork/article.php?&ArticleID=505+

Joel Osteen’s New Age Life Now?

Commentary Opinion By Brannon Howse

In part two of our examination of Joel Osteen’s teachings and beliefs

we expose what I believe are unbiblical, New Age doctrines.



“Whatever you conceive you can achieve.”

With this favorite karma-changing promise, New Agers believe you need only use the “unlimited” power and consciousness of your mind to bring about all your dreams, desires and wishes.



Cloaked in a “Christian” package, Joel Osteen’s Your Best Life Now, bears an uncomfortable and dangerous similarity to this most popular of New Age claims. Sample a few of the Osteen versions:



• “You will produce what you’re continually seeing in your mind. If you foster an image of defeat and failure, then you’re going to live that kind of life. But if you develop an image of victory, success, health, abundance, joy, peace, and happiness, nothing on earth will be able to hold those things from you.” (page 5)



• “You must conceive it in your heart and mind before you can receive it.” (page 6)



• “You must look through your ‘eyes of faith’ and start seeing yourself as happy, healthy and whole.” (page 15)



• “What you will receive is directly connected to how you believe.” (page 22)



• “We receive what we believe.” (page 72)



• “Learn how to conceive. Keep the image of what you want to become in front of you. You’re going to become what you believe.” (page 81)



Osteen now travels the country, packing out stadiums with his happy-talk. But I’d like to see Osteen pay a visit to China, preach his “your best life now” drivel, and see how Christians there respond. Let Osteen look into the eyes of Pastor Lei who has been repeatedly arrested and beaten for preaching the Word of God in his church—a church not licensed by the Chinese government. How would the American’s best life work out for Pastor Lei and his congregation? Perhaps their jail time for the Gospel would give them time to assess Rev. Osteen’s claims.



Have these and countless other persecuted Christians been beaten, jailed and murdered because they “received what they believed,” or did these terrible things happen to them because they did not “develop an image of victory, success, health, abundance, joy, peace, and happiness”?



Were eleven of Jesus’ disciples martyred because, “they received what they believed”? Were the disciples living under a “curse of poverty and defeat” as Osteen says of so many? Here’s a role-call of questions I’d like to ask Mr. Osteen. Why is it, Joel, that:





• Paul and Matthew were beheaded?
• Barnabas was burned to death?
• Mark was dragged to death?
• James, the less, was clubbed to death?
• Peter, Philip, and Andrew were crucified?
• Thomas was speared to death?
• Luke was hung by the neck till dead?
• Stephen was stoned?



How would these disciples take to the best-life message?



Yes, I know. Joel’s promises sound so much better to American ears than all those warnings of Jesus about being hated by most people for His sake. But it remains that in large measure, Joel’s offering can be described as nothing less than blasphemy. On page 36, he claims, “God has a big dream for your life.” On page 56: “God sees you as a champion. He believes in you even more than you believe in yourself!” And on page 110: “God has confidence in you.”



Osteen does not provide a single Bible verse to back up these statements…because there are none. Nowhere in the Bible do we read that God believes or has confidence in us. He loves us, but does not believe in us. On the contrary, He knows all too well how unbelievably fickle and untrustworthy we humans actually are. It’s not like Joel describes on page 57: “Believe it or not, that is how God sees you, too. He regards you as a strong, courageous, successful, overcoming person.”



Furthermore, God does not define our success in materialistic terms as Joel does. God is interested in our obedience above all. On page 63, Joel writes:



As long as you are pressing forward, you can hold your head up high, knowing that you are a “work in progress,” and God is in the process of changing you. He’s looking at your last two good moves.



Joel, where in the Bible do you read that God is not looking at our last two bad moves but our last two good moves? Isaiah 64:6 says that even our righteous deeds are like filthy rags or wickedness to God because He is so holy. Even if God did look at our last two good moves, He would still see filthy rags.



Or how about this Osteen gospel gem from page 95:



“Be the best you can be, then you can feel good about yourself.”



Where in the Bible do we find this teaching? What if your best is getting drunk just once a week instead of twice a week? Should you still feel good about yourself?



But wait. I’ve saved Joel’s most outrageous statement for last (drum roll please). On page 144, Joel elevates us to the heavenlies by pointing out that “You may even need to forgive God.”



Whoa! And exactly what would we be forgiving God for? As I recall, forgiveness is for sins—or at least mistakes. But which of those has God made? Not a one according to any Bible I’ve ever read.



Oswald Chambers offers a perspective on the kind of thing the Osteens of the world do to Christians: “Satan’s great aim is to deflect us from the center. He will allow us to be devoted to the death to any cause, any enterprise, to anything but the Lord Jesus.”[1] Hebrews 13:9 instructs us to not be carried away by all sorts of strange teachings (deflected from the center) but sadly, that is exactly what is happening for many at the hand of Joel Osteen.



Instead of pursuing our best life now, we should pursue the things of the Lord so we can have our best life later. I fear that for many who follow Joel’s false teaching, this life is the best they will get. The false gospel proclaimed by Joel Osteen and accepted as truth by millions may allow many to achieve what they can conceive of the things in this world, but true to Jesus’ promise, they may lose their souls in the pursuit.









[1] George Grant, The Family Under Siege, (Bethany House Publishers, Mlps, MN. 1994) p. 44.


Distributed by www.ChristianWorldviewNetwork.com
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Just a cautionary note

Disclaimer: Worldview Weekend, Christian Worldview Network and its columnists do not necessarily endorse or agree with every opinion expressed in every article posted on this site. We do however, encourage a healthy and friendly debate on the issues of our day. Whether you agree or disagree, we encourage you to post your feedback by using the feedback button.
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Generally speaking, the Word of Faith movement had its place (and it's still going in its place) of causing Christians worldwide to rethink their quiet, unresponsive, just-sit-there Christianity and the Word of Faith movement stirred Christians up into excited Christians.

The Word of Faith movement had its place and still has a place, in God's time and purposes.

I sometimes think that humans are so polluted that God actually gets little out of co-laboring with polluted humans, but God always gets something of His plan accomplished with the help of polluted humans, even with Christians who have access to the Counsel of the Holy Spirit.

Yet God knows that each Christian's ability to listen to the Counsellor varies with each polluted human Christian.

What I'm saying is that the LORD God of Israel did get something out of the Word of Faith movement, namely the WOF got people excited about God again.

People began to "watch what their own tongues were saying", and that is a good thing, Amen?

Were they speaking in faith or were they speaking words which were not of faith? And so on.

While I was not too fond of the way the author presented the subject of Apologetics and Heresy Hunters, I agree with the idea of Apologetics but not with the idea of Heresy Hunters.

We are all called to defend the faith of the Bible and seek out truth and error as it occurs in the particular place that I am at, like for instance on this CBBS, I am reading what people are writing and answering them. That is Apologetics.

Then there are the Heresy Hunters, who say things about bornagain "Christians who are far away" and "who cannot defend themselves because they don't even know they are being discussed" and "who are too big a group to be able to reach personally anymore--for who has time to answser everything personally anymore when one is in charge of say, a TBN with a budget of what, $500 million?

That is Heresy Hunting, talking about bornagain Christians who are far away and do not know they are being discussed. That is Heresy Hunting.

On the other hand, heresy hunting could be good if all it is doing is warning against this or that part of a bornagain Christian's teaching.

Every bornagain Christian only understands in part and sees in part, so it is not surprising, given also our polluted history under Lucifer-Satan, that bornagain Christians teach some things which are a bit far-fetched and could use a little "realignment".

Fine, name me one Christian other than yourself who is the perfect preacher, who knows the Bible word for word from memory and has found all the lines upon lines in the Bible and makes no mistakes anymore in interpretation.

Or was the Bible now as easy to understand and remember as Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf? There are so many words in the Bible, and each time I read them anew, the words and their context almost spring into more life than they already had the first time I read them.

Come now, the Word of Faith movement did a great job for its time, and it is still bringing more people into the kingdom of the Living God of Israel.

Talk to us on this CBBS, condemn or praise us, present your own Topics to us which you have yourselves understood from the Bible, that we may see what you know yourselves about the Bible.

I love Apologetics though, because that means "contending for the faith in the here and now where I am planted." Here, with bornagain Christians who can defend themselves, and not far away with bornagain Christians who cannot defend themselves.

God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the
 

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Posted by ToBeContinued (Member # 4639) on :
 
Just press the play button and listen to the song...

This sums it up pretty good : )
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
BA says:

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Then there are the Heresy Hunters, who say things about bornagain "Christians who are far away" and "who cannot defend themselves because they don't even know they are being discussed" and "who are too big a group to be able to reach personally anymore--for who has time to answser everything personally anymore when one is in charge of say, a TBN with a budget of what, $500 million?

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Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

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But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

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Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

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These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

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I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

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Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

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how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

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6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Amen Walt and Linda.

Linda, I think you've hit an important nail on the head. Those who would label us 'hersey hunters' don't understand that we expose the hersey/error because of Love... Love for God and Love for the Lost and decieved.

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As long as you keep in mind that you should always glorify His name and display the fruits of the spirit.

Psalm 86:12
I will praise thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart: and I will glorify thy name for evermore.

Gal.5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Amen, HisGrace
 

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Posted by Debtfree (Member # 4438) on :
 
You need to read two books on the Word of Faith:
E.W. Kenyon And His Message of Faith The True Story, and Another Side of the Coin. You can find them by typing in the name of each book in any search engine.

The Word of Faith isn't perfect, but it isn't a cult either. WoF believers believe in the same statement of faith that the Assemblies of God endorses.

Instead of attacking the message research it from both side of the story.

Debtfree
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Let's just look at this ONE Issue with the WOF Movement... "Ye are little gods" "I am a Little Messiah..." Now, lets look at this

http://www.exchangedlife.com/sschool/topical/wf/exalting_man.htm

False Teaching – Exalting Man

The exaltation of man is where the Word-Faith movement sharply deviates from the Bible and historic Christianity. The great lie of Satan has always been, ‘You will be like God’ (Genesis 3:5). In the beginning, Satan’s sin was pride. In Isaiah 14:14 the Bible says that he declared the he would be like the Most High God and then he uses the same false claim on any man who will head him. After his fall, this same echo of pride has been used to tempt man throughout the ages. Pagan religions appeal to people on the level of pride. Margo Adler, a well known witch, stated this well:

The reason people are so attracted to magical and pagan religions is because they want to be god. The fundamental thing of pagan religions is that ultimately they say that you are within yourself the god or goddess.

Do you think it is true that the desire to be like God or to be a god is pagan?

Can this pagan doctrine and the Bible be in agreement?

Isaiah 43:10 tells us:

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"You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. "

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Let's just look at this ONE Issue with the WOF Movement... "Ye are little gods" "I am a Little Messiah..."

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False Teaching – Exalting Man
The exaltation of man is where the Word-Faith movement sharply deviates from the Bible and historic Christianity. The great lie of Satan has always been, ‘You will be like God’ (Genesis 3:5). In the beginning, Satan’s sin was pride. In Isaiah 14:14 the Bible says that he declared the he would be like the Most High God and then he uses the same false claim on any man who will head him. After his fall, this same echo of pride has been used to tempt man throughout the ages. Pagan religions appeal to people on the level of pride. Margo Adler, a well known witch, stated this well:

The reason people are so attracted to magical and pagan religions is because they want to be god. The fundamental thing of pagan religions is that ultimately they say that you are within yourself the god or goddess.

Do you think it is true that the desire to be like God or to be a god is pagan?

Can this pagan doctrine and the Bible be in agreement?

Isaiah 43:10 tells us: "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."Can the pagan religions and the Bible both be true?

Is there any other god other than the LORD?
Will there ever be another god other than the God who has revealed Himself in scripture?

The Bible is a very exclusionary book. God declared His word in such a way that it is impossible to accept pagan religions without rejecting scripture. Either this verse in Isaiah is a lie, or the pagans are following a lie. Both cannot be true.

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The claim that man is god is probably the most consistent error that Word-Faith doctrine teaches. Across the board, almost all prominent Faith teachers echo the same message. Some, like Benny Hinn, began by warning people not to believe this doctrine. However, now Hinn teaches it with great fervor. Early on, Hinn once taught the following: ----

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Excerpts from the New Age book - We The People Are The Messiah

"DID I DIE FOR YOUR SINS? Of course I did not die for your sins . . . that would place you below me."

"The word "Christ' refers to your Divinity. This is the sacred substance of which you are made."
"Resurrect yourselves. You are Christ. CONSCIOUSLY BE CHRIST NOW!"

The clear intent is that you are not below Christ, you are Christ.
According to New Age doctrine, is man equal to Jesus Christ?

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Now look at Word-Faith teaching: ---According to Word-Faith doctrine, is man equal to Jesus Christ?

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
HisGrace I agree with you. I decided to read the links provided by Softtouch and it's sort of like reading about Evolution. In that those who believe in Evolution tout their own assumptions about the truth. The articles are full of false assumptions about what the WOF is really teaching and they skew the facts and fit into it their own false assumptions BECAUSE THE WRITTER OF THAT WEB PAGE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
HisGrace I agree with you. I decided to read the links provided by Softtouch and it's sort of like reading about Evolution. In that those who believe in Evolution tout their own assumptions about the truth. The articles are full of false assumptions about what the WOF is really teaching and they skew the facts and fit into it their own false assumptions BECAUSE THE WRITTER OF THAT WEB PAGE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE TRUTH.

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That is the problem with all of this cut and paste info. - it is all second-hand material, according to the bias of the author.

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Excuse me HisGrace but you're wrong. I have Heard and Seen Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland make these claims of being 'little god men' and 'little messiahs'

I Stand by what I posted. It is the Truth and Much of the WF teaching is straight out of Gnosticism/New Ageism. That is The Truth.

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SoftTouch,

Do you think that some Christians will ever choose the Word of God over the words of men?

The constant defense of the indefensible is unbelievable.

I'm beginning to lose hope.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
That is the problem with all of this cut and paste info. - it is all second-hand material, according to the bias of the author.

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Would this also apply to the article you posted from and referred to in this thread "Difference Between Apologists and Heresy Hunters"? [/QB]

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
Somebody has to defend them.

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Excuse me HisGrace but you're wrong. I have Heard and Seen Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland make these claims of being 'little god men' and 'little messiahs'

I Stand by what I posted. It is the Truth and Much of the WF teaching is straight out of Gnosticism/New Ageism. That is The Truth.

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SoftTouch,

Do you think that some Christians will ever choose the Word of God over the words of men?

The constant defense of the indefensible is unbelievable.

I'm beginning to lose hope.

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After two years of 'debating' with the same couple of people, it's no longer about trying to reach those couple of people, but Praying that our efforts to shed the light of Truth on the lies of the WF Movement will reach those who are just reading here
 

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Posted by BORN AGAIN (Member # 5) on :
 
Sister helpforhomeschoolers writes

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“Oh, BA... I think that they have defended themselves:[/b] From Paul Crouch, "Praise-a-thon" broadcast on TBN, recorded 4/2/91:[quote]"I think God's given up on a lot of that old rotten Sanhedrin religious crowd, twice dead, plucked up by the roots. I think they're damned and on their way to hell and I don't think there's any redemption for them...the heresy hunters that want to find a little mote of illegal doctrine in some Christian's eye and pluck that little mote out of their eye when they've got the whole forest in their own lives and in their own eyes. I say to hell with you!”

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”Oh hallelujah. Get out of God's way, quit blocking God's bridges or God's gonna shoot you

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I refuse to argue any longer with any of you out there. Don't even call me. If you want to argue doctrine, if you want to straighten out somebody over here, if you want to criticize Ken Copeland for his preaching on faith, or Dad Hagin. Get out of my life! I don't even want to talk to you or hear you. I don't want to see your ugly face! Get out of my face in Jesus' name." {bold by BORN AGAIN} (Paul Crouch, "Praise-a-thon" broadcast on TBN, recorded 4/2/91)

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This quote above was taken from a website, and not one that I approve of {bold by BORN AGAIN}, but I will personally testify that I have heard several of the above statements personally at other times from Crouch and similar ones from Hinn, Copeland, and Duplantis.

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After reading these preachers web sites, I really have to question WHY the other web sites are putting them down

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Excuse me HisGrace but you're wrong. I have Heard and Seen Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland make these claims of being 'little god men' and 'little messiahs'

I Stand by what I posted. It is the Truth and Much of the WF teaching is straight out of Gnosticism/New Ageism. That is The Truth.

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SoftTouch,

Do you think that some Christians will ever choose the Word of God over the words of men?

The constant defense of the indefensible is unbelievable.

I'm beginning to lose hope.

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After two years of 'debating' with the same couple of people, it's no longer about trying to reach those couple of people, but Praying that our efforts to shed the light of Truth on the lies of the WF Movement will reach those who are just reading here

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So true. Some who are blind, might always be blind.

But I can attest, due to the many e-mails that East receives on a regular basis; there are a whole lot of people who are reached that most of us are unaware of.

As I posted last month:

"It is better to be divided by truth than united in error; it is better to speak truth that hurts and then heals than to speak a lie; it is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie; it is better to stand alone with truth than to be wrong with the multitude...The religion of today is ‘get-along-ism.’ It is time for men and women of God to stand, [even] if they have to stand alone." ~ Adrian Rogers

Keep fighting the good fight SoftTouch!
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

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After reading these preachers web sites, I really have to question WHY the other web sites are putting them down

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I coud build you a website taking only information from the Mormon church's website and you would be able to make the same statement.

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2 Corinthians 11:13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

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After reading these preachers web sites, I really have to question WHY the other web sites are putting them down

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I coud build you a website taking only information from the Mormon church's website and you would be able to make the same statement.

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Originally posted by hardcore:
But I can attest, due to the many e-mails that East receives on a regular basis; there are a whole lot of people who are reached that most of us are unaware of.

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PRAISE GOD!!!!! That's Encouraging!!!!!

That's why I keep 'knocking my head against this brick wall' ( ) with these couple of folks here
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
DEB: I think that most of the people who are blessed by a post are ones that never themselves post. Over the years I received many many emails of testimony and encouragement from people who for what ever reasons did not themselves post but were blessed by something someone wrote here that was exactly what they had been praying about or needed to hear at the time. Sometimes I dont even think that we are supposed to know all the people's live that we touch in this life. Paul said I sow; Apollos waters; God gives the increase. Sometimes God will let us know we have blessed someone to encourage us when we are weary, but I think those are really exceptions and the most of the time...we dont know and aren't even supposed to know. It keeps us from every thinking that it is about us.

KP Yohanna tells a story about his mother. One day he was upset with her because she was wearing this tatered old dress. He was fussing with her..told her that she brought shame to her sons because she looked like a raggamuffin and her sons provided for her that she could have bought a new dress every week if she wanted. She was a tiny little woman frail and about maybe 80 90 pounds, but she got in his face somewhat and told him that he did not know anything, but one day he would know. When she died, it so happened that he was with her in their native India. His brothers who were also scattered around the world called and the subject came up of their inheiritance.. they all had been sending her money for many many years and they knew that she lived like a pauper, so they figured there must be an inheritiance in th bank somewhere. But KP told them no... no inheritiance... he had found a scribbled piece of paper under her bed, it was a ledger...all the money that she received...she was sending away supporting missionaries preachng the Gospel. KP, now understood. She never in this life saw the fruit of her labor, but i am very sure that she had stores of treasure in heaven. I think that this is true whether our labor is the labor of saving and sending or whether it is preaching HIS truth, or whether it is speaking against apostasy or writing songs that touch someone's heart and lead them to seek Christ... what ever it is that our little joint in this body supplies.. it supplies because GOD supplied it and we may never know in this life the fruits of our labors and that is because for us our labors are about obedience and nothing more and the treasure... our reward is not here and not of things earthy or things that will pass with time, or things that will see corruption, but it is with HIM in heaven and there is where we will know the bounty of fruits of our labor in the right season. So for now, we just run the race pressing on toward the goal.
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
... to Truly See what these false teachers teach, you have to carefully listen when they ‘preach’ cause that’s when the heresy starts flying! Just watch TBN for a while… it’s sure to pop up! It always does.

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AMEN and AMEN.

I bust Kenneth Copeland on something almost every time I see him, and practically all Benny Hinn or Jesse Duplantis have to do is open their mouths. And what's up with Hagee hanging with those two? Did you see the picture?

Joyce Meyer is a little tougher. She tends to have more good sprinkled in with her bad, and the way she phrases things is harder to catch sometimes. You almost have to watch for a while. A lot of times her overall message will have a good point, but the way she gets there isn't right.

Oh well. Thankfully God can use them in spite of themselves; not unlike the rest of us.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Amen Sister Linda! Those are Definitely Words of Wisdom! (But it was still encouraging to read Hardcore's post - I was getting weary )
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Cor: yes, it does take careful attention to detail to hear what is wrong; I believe that the Spirit does train our ears. The more of the word that is written in our hears the more things stand out that are not quite right. But It is more than what these folks say that speaks volumes of the problems. It is the whole picture if you will. Meyers for example makes no bones about the fact that she feels that her affluent lifestyle is a reward for her faithfulness. Well that is all fine and good until you look at a Paul or a Nee! Or what about the preacher that you never heard of that walks the harsh environment of Napal to preach the gospel to those who have never heard?? Are they less blessed? Less faithful???? The 95 million dollars that her ministry took in last year came out of the pockets of local churches! And she fights ceasar over how much she should pay in taxes! The walk and the talk do not line up!!! Now her fan club will shout about the 8 million a month that she gives to Charity and well she ought give, but none of that giving changes that her principles are not Biblical in the first place!!!!!!!! What drive me the most crazy is that her fan club does not even get that when God allows the pastors to fleece the flock and feed themselves it is because the flock is experieincing judgement!!!!!!

The good news is that God will not allow this forever. The day is coming when the truth will be known even to those who now desire to be ignorant and desire to have their ears scratched and desire to persecute the Jeramiah's of the church today, and it will be known to all with clairity. And some will weep and some will rejoice, but all will know who held the truth and who did not and even who held the truth in unrighteousness. God is going to settle this debate one day soon!

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Thing is what do we defend until he come? Men or the WORD? What do we study to show ourselves approved...not to each other but to GOD? Men or the WORD?

Dear GOD, I pray for the desire to know above all things the WORD of your truth and eteem no man and no earthly thing above it and to stand against and endure all things for the sake of your name and your word your WORD, and to stand alone if need be. I pray that for each of you my brothers and sisters as well!

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Dear GOD, I pray for the desire to know above all things the WORD of your truth and eteem no man and no earthly thing above it and to stand against and endure all things for the sake of your name and your word your WORD, and to stand alone if need be. I pray that for each of you my brothers and sisters as well!

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
WOF is not based upon works, but fruit of the Spirit. We are created in the image of God, yet we are NOT gods.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
WOF is not based upon works, but fruit of the Spirit. We are created in the image of God, yet we are NOT gods.

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That's what many seem to be missing about the WOF. All of their views are very strongly Bible-based. Their message of "We are created in the image of God, yet we are NOT gods" has been ridiculously twisted by the press, done in the name of 'holiness.'

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I am NOT NOT NOT of the mind that we are to be "poor" for the Lord. I have nothing against wealth. It is GOD who gives the power to get wealth. I believe that in this nation, we have been planted here with unbelievable opportunity to get wealth because we also had the freedom to use that wealth to send forth those who would take the Gospel and the word to the world and to take care of the church in this land that we are seen by the world and the unbeliever in this nation as truly blessed. But sadly, that is not the picture that is seen because we have not done as we ought with that power. We see a few shepherds with unbelievable wealth gotten from the sheeps with itching ears and a church at home that is in debt and in lack, and we see the 10% that the very wealthy shepherds give to "good works" very publically being thrown at those that are oppressed by the devourer where it is devoured. This is not the way of the apostles; it is not the way of the scripture. One error leads to the next and the whole lump is sick!!!

.05% of the money that is given worldwide to missions is spent in the area of the world where 97% of the unreached live!!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Good Morning WHite Eagle.. it was not bait. Yes I agree with you that all of these that you listed are based on works. The point was not that their sites would look like copelands or anyone else's but that I could take basic information from their site and build a site that you could day the same thing about. I wanted to say that we have to see a whole picture because I can print on my site just what I want said and nothing more and give what ever impression I want to give.

My husband and I have business aquintances that are Mormon, and you can have a conversation with them and talk about Jesus, and talk about the gifts of the Spirit and talk about sin and talk about salvation and have a conversation just like you and I might have here and if you did not know that they were Mormons you would not know from the conversation. In High school my oldest daughter had a friend that was a Mormon. She lost her mom right after Graduation and so she spent a lot of time in our home over the years at holidays especially, and at our house there is always talk of God and Jesus and what he has done for us and how he is in our lives and this young woman can join in the conversation and you would never know that she was not of the same faith as you. My first job was in a denatal practice where there were 4 dentists. One of them a Mormon, and the same thing was true of him.. aside from the fact that he chided me for smoking and drinking coffee (which he did based on health reasons and not religious ones) you would not know that he was not Christian. And lastly my husband's DM for one of the companies he represents is a Mormon and the same thing is true with him, and even with him... he will have a cup of coffee or a coke with you.

But we know tha when these persons say JESUS... it is not the same Jesus that we have faith in. Even in looking at the Main LDS website you do not get the full jest of their beliefs about Christ!!! You have to read the book of Mormon to really get that. I have read the book of Mormon.

When we speak of WOF and those who teach it, I dont think that any of these people seeks to mislead anyone. I believe that they themselves are mislead. I believed that K Copeland for example believes that Jesus died a spiritual death on the cross and was born again in hell. I believe that he believes that he believes that Jesus had to fight demons in hell for the keys to the kingdom. I believe that when he preaches this (and there is a link to a video of him preaching this on his site) I believe that this subject has been discussed here at length and some maybe even you feels that this is insignificant and unimportant, but I believe that it is contrary to the scipture and when really examined it undermines the work of the cross and causes people to miss somethings that are important and GOD wanted us to get. So, I will preach against any man that preaches this... it matters not to me what his name.

What I find is that this teaching, which many if not all WOF teachers believe or teach colors their theology in other areas and leads to more error.

I have always appreciated that you desire people to see the spiritual lessons that are present in the scripture. You remind me of my brother Thunder, who I believe brought into my life to show me that balance that is there between the things literal and the things spiritual in the scrpture. We must have this balance. I agree with your stand against legalism.

But this balance cannot come at the expense of scrptural and doctrinal integrity. To allow it to do so is to make the same error as the pharisee, though it is made in the spiritual sense of things as opposed to the natural or earthly sense of things. While it may not for you come at the expense of scriptural integrity and doctrinal integrity, that is not the case with some. It is not the case with some who follow these WOF teachers, maybe because they do not have enough sound doctrine committed to their minds, hearts, brains etc.. but it is not so with many of the WOF teachers even more so... because for so many of them.. the love of the material things of this world has gotten in the way and the sale of books and tapes and the bringing in of dollars to feed the monster they have built have now become a stumbling block to the truth.

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I didn't mean that you intentionally were baiting me. I just saw another challenge from your post in a good way to seek out what the Mormons and other cults do say about Salvation and compare it to the WOF. I liked that kind of challenge because I want to find out for sure if what I assume is actually true about any given situation. Like the saying:
"Curiousity killed the cat....but satisfaction brought him back."LOL!

You are correct the Mormons are not talking about the same Jesus of Nazareth that we are. Just as Islam is not talking about the same Almighty God that we know from the Bible.


Mormons say somewhat all the right things until one gets more details such as from their book of Mormon. Their belief is saved by one's works. They in essensce preach to have faith in a Jesus, and then make sure one does all the right things to ensure their place in heaven.

By contrast the WOF teaches Salvation through the Christ and also teaches Christians how to have a personal relationship with God through Christ and the Holy Spirit as teacher. What comes out of our heart in the bottom line. Our words are important, because as James points out, our tongues are like the bridle of a horse or the rudder of a ship.

Does WOF get too hyper-faith? ie teaching about prosperity, blessings, ect through our words? Yes at times some of them do. I have watched Ken Copeland and have never heard him say things that are attributed to him by these heresy web sites. I feel his quotes are being taken out of the context of whatever his total message had been.

Example:

My pastor recently did a teaching about how Christians are the "Ark of the Covenant" carriers. That we carry the Ark within ourselves.

Sound heretical?

His basis for this connection is scriptural and logical. Paul says we have an advocate with the Father through Jesus Christ and are able to enter the most Holy Place. Paul teaches we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit. That we have Christ in us. Jesus said to abide in Him and He will abide in us.

In the Old Testament the Ark of the Covenant was where God met man. Entering the Holy of Holies through God's demand for animal sacrifice and atonement for the sins of the people. In the New Covenant we met God through Christ and carry the Holy Spirit within us. Likened to the Ark as a picture. In Hebrews Paul outlines these pictural associations between the Old and the New.

The WOF does preach the true Gospel of Salvation and the one True Jesus.

That is why I have difficulty in having their ministries called Heresy.

If one wants to just point out that they disagree with their hyperfaith, and temper it to be more balanced to the trials and tribulations Christians are also promised in scripture, then fine. But it's not heresy.
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Thanks for your post, while I dont think that we will come to unity on this issue, I do feel that you post gave me a good understanding of what you see.

I appreciated knowing that you can see some of what concerns me as you demonstrated by the word hyper-faith.

I also can appreciate that you have never heard some of these things said on these websites and I dont know which things you refer to, but I can say that there is much that is said that I have heard.

It is ironic to me because I used to follow Copeland and Meyers quite closely, and it was in my own church that I first heard someone speak against thier teachings. I was oh, so offeneded. My poor family had to listen to me rant and rave all the way home, I was so upset and I was upset because the speaker had clearly a personaly agenda against these and others that he spoke against. I was mad at my pastor who let this person speak. I was just mad mad mad. I realized some time after that that GOD had allowed me to be offended because there were some things that I had yet to learn that I needed to learn before I stopped listening to the Copelands and much of the rest of the TBN crowd. Then when I had learned these things, then God allowed me to see the errors that this man saw. God also impressed upon me that this man did have a personal agenda and that this was not HIS way. I would speak against my own pastor whom I dearly love if he ever began to teach either by words or witness the things that I see taught by many WOF teachers. With all my heart I desire to esteem no man above what is written.

You see that these preach the true Gospel; I do not agree. The main reason that I do not agree is that the Jesus that they preach is not my Jesus and I believe not the Jesus of the Bible.

When I study the writings of the early church fathers that spoke against gnosticism, and Valentinism, and Marcionism, and all the isms that they spoke against in their day I find that the "heresy" that they spoke against always had to do with one of two things...maybe three:

1.the nature of Christ and the Godhead
2. Sin
3. The lording over of the people

When I look at the very root of all the doctrinal problems that I see with WOF, I come back to what I see as the central error of their teaching and that error is the nature of Christ. All other error in WOF stems IMO from this error, and it is of the same nature of error that the great apologists of the first 3 centuries spoke against.

1. Jesus did not die a spiritual death. The Bible teaches that Jesus died in the flesh, defeating sin in the flesh and that his very much alive and living spirit was commended unto the hand of the father.

2. The cross is not the place of defeat. The cross is the place of victory.

I could write much more on this as the implications of these things are far reaching and perhaps touch ever aspect of our doctrines, but I won't at this point belabor these points that have been discussed here at length in the past.

Here is what I know. If Jesus had died a spiritual death, if the death of HIS flesh and blood human person had not been sufficient, then HE was not GOD manifest in the flesh and the fullness of the Godhead including the SPIRIT of ALMIGHTY GOD that cannot DIE, did not live in HIM and that not be so... then HE could not atone for your sin or mine.

Thus the Jesus that Copeland preaches and the Jesus that Meyers has preached, is no more the Jesus of the Scripture or the JESUS that is my Savior than is the Mormon Spirit brother of Satan Jesus.

This failure on the part of WOF teachers to understand the work of the cross in all its totality colors their doctrine at every turn and in my opinion makes it to be heresy. If a man does not understand what the cross did for us, then he cannot understand nor rightly preach what is now in this life ours through the cross.

If you do not understand what is ours through the cross then you continue to live unvictorious lives never resting in Christ, never possessing all things while having nothing, seeking peace and Joy and power in earthly things, battling with your fesh, striving to have great enough faith, striving to pray hard enough in just the right way, striving with your flesh against sin in your flesh, and on and on and on.

The reason the church is sick and powerless and in debt and depressed and divorced and in sin and in bondage to so many things is because the church is still trying to work its own works and because it thinks that its works are being spiritually worked it thinks it is not doing its own works, but it is working its own works every bit as much as the pharisee of the 1st century. The church is not assembled, the church is not resting, the church is not even displaying the blessings with which they are blessed in the heavenlies. The majority of the church is in bondage and desires things worldly and is worldly and has no idea in this world what it means to grow UP into Christ and they seek and they search and they by this one's book and that one's book and they find peace, but only till the next crisis or the next book that some preacher sells them.

HERE IS THE ONLY BOOK THE CHURCH NEEDS... THE HOLY BIBLE. HERE IS THE ONLY PEACE JOY AND POWER THe CHRUCH NEEDS.......JESUS!!!

The BIBLE says seek ye FIRST the KINGDOM. THe Kingdom is found in knowing the KING and Copeland is not preaching the KING of the BIBLE. HE is preaching his unbiblical version of the KING and it is a version without Power and that is why, people need to turn off their set and get to another camp meeting and buy another book.

ughhhhhhh. I am sorry. I did not mean to rant. It just breaks my heart.

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Paul preached Christ Crucified. Paul did not preach Christ born again in hell; Paul did not poreach Christ defeated at the cross. Paul did not preach Christ died a spiritual death. Paul did not preach Christ battling demons in hell for the keys. Paul preached Christ crucified because it is to those who will hear - the POWER of the Almighty GOD.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
When I look at the very root of all the doctrinal problems that I see with WOF, I come back to what I see as the central error of their teaching and that error is the nature of Christ. All other error in WOF stems IMO from this error, and it is of the same nature of error that the great apologists of the first 3 centuries spoke against.

1. Jesus did not die a spiritual death. The Bible teaches that Jesus died in the flesh, defeating sin in the flesh and that his very much alive and living spirit was commended unto the hand of the father.

2. The cross is not the place of defeat. The cross is the place of victory.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
1. Jesus did not die a spiritual death. The Bible teaches that Jesus died in the flesh, defeating sin in the flesh and that his very much alive and living spirit was commended unto the hand of the father.

2. The cross is not the place of defeat. The cross is the place of victory.

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but he gained victory over the cross and death through his resurrection.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

His victory was complete on the cross.


The difference in my view and copeland's view is that Copeland saw that Jesus after he had died had to go into hell and battle the devil and all his demons to take the authority over hell from the devil. I believe that Jesus went into the grave with that authority.

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From helpforhomeschoolers -His victory was complete on the cross

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

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2 Corinthians 11: 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Yes ladies, we must use careful discernment.

Statement of Faith (KCM)
We believe in one God-Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Creator of all things.

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, was crucified, died, was buried, was resurrected, ascended into heaven, and is now seated at the right hand of God the Father and is true God and true man.

We believe the Bible in its entirety to be the inspired Word of God and the infallible rule of faith and conduct.

We believe in the resurrection of the dead, the eternal happiness of the saved, and the eternal punishment of the lost.

We believe in personal salvation of believers through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

We believe in sanctification through the Word of God and by the Holy Spirit, and we believe in personal holiness, purity of heart and life.

We believe in divine healing, through faith in the Name of Jesus Christ, and that healing is included in the Redemption.

We believe in water baptism, in the Baptism in the Holy Spirit as distinct from the New Birth, in speaking with tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Acts 2:4), in the gifts of the Spirit, and the evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. We believe that all of these are available to believers.

We believe in the Christian's hope-the soon-coming, personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

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but he gained victory over the cross and death through his resurrection.

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Christ gained victory over the cross and over death through his resurrection?

I would say that because of HIS victory on the cross death could not hold him and thus the Spirit of God raised HIM, and because HE was raised you have hope also of rising.

Your victory and mine over sin in the flesh is one the cross and our victory over death are in HIS rising.

His victory was complete on the cross.


The difference in my view and copeland's view is that Copeland saw that Jesus after he had died had to go into hell and battle the devil and all his demons to take the authority over hell from the devil. I believe that Jesus went into the grave with that authority.

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Satan is forced to accept the Authority of Christ. He has no choice. Yet , he still can cause havoc in those who are not saved and in Christians who start believing his lies.

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True Jesus Christ went to the grave with Authority. The battle of battles was won, but Satan didn't accept defeat, he still hasn't accepted defeat. It is a struggle. Satan knows his time is short. Even though he knows he is doomed to the Lake of Fire, he will continue to fight and attack Christ until the End. Satan attacks Christians and has never stopped. He is not an honest enemy. He is the father of lies, murderer, the thief, who comes to rob, kill and destroy. He attacks us even now, and we continue the battles.

Satan is forced to accept the Authority of Christ. He has no choice. Yet , he still can cause havoc in those who are not saved and in Christians who start believing his lies.

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You wont get any argument from me here! I agree, which is why it is so important that our paradigms are based in the scriptures.
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
2nd Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a ... 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, ...


Hardcore posted this quote ...

"It is better to be divided by truth than united in error; it is better to speak truth that hurts and then heals than to speak a lie; it is better to be hated for telling the truth than to be loved for telling a lie; it is better to stand alone with truth than to be wrong with the multitude...The religion of today is ‘get-along-ism.’ It is time for men and women of God to stand, [even] if they have to stand alone." ~

Adrian Rogers

I agree with that statement 100%...

Yeshua said only a few would be save,

He also said the way that leads to eternal life is narrow ...

but the Word of Faith teachers and the Rick Warren's and Joel Osteen’s have made the Gospel user friendly and easy for all to enter.

Galatians 1:6, "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel."

We are not free to sin but have been made free from sin.

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Strong’s definition of Grace …..good will,loving-kindness, favor of the merciful kindness by which Yahweh, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues (sounds a lot like Jeremiah 31:33 to me)
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
AMEN Dale! AMEN!
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Excuse me HisGrace but you're wrong. I have Heard and Seen Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland make these claims of being 'little god men' and 'little messiahs'

I Stand by what I posted. It is the Truth and Much of the WF teaching is straight out of Gnosticism/New Ageism. That is The Truth.

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From Soft Touch - Sorry guys, I'm not familiar with her. I don't really read Christian books or watch preachers on TV. I was just reacting to that quote... it just sounded really Off.

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Hhmmmm. Also, 'sounded' isn't good enough. We need the Gospel Truth.
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

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Hhmmmm. Also, 'sounded' isn't good enough. We need the Gospel Truth.

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" Sometimes when human nature has done its best and failed, God's power alone is free to work."

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Once again they considered stopping the work. Once again we discovered we could not.

That night Father, Betsie and I prayed long after the others had gone to bed. We knew that in spite of daily mounting risks we had no choice but to move forward. This was evil's hour; we could not run away from it. Perhaps only when human effort had done its best and failed, would God's power alone be free to work."

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Excuse me HisGrace but you're wrong. I have Heard and Seen Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland make these claims of being 'little god men' and 'little messiahs'

I Stand by what I posted. It is the Truth and Much of the WF teaching is straight out of Gnosticism/New Ageism. That is The Truth.

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quote:

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From Soft Touch - Sorry guys, I'm not familiar with her. I don't really read Christian books or watch preachers on TV. I was just reacting to that quote... it just sounded really Off.

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Hhmmmm. Also, 'sounded' isn't good enough. We need the Gospel Truth.

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LOL!!!! How LONG did it take you to Dig this up just to try to show I'm a liar (which I'm not). No, I Don't watch TV preachers, but that doesn't mean that I haven't seen PLENTY of clips of these preachers preaching their heresy. I've said this Many Times on this BBS... but of course you wouldn't bother telling that part...

In fact, I have a growing library of DVD's that expose these types of things. These are Not 'digitally altered' or 'cut and pasted' together clips... these are very clear and concise and show plainly the False Teaching and False Manifestations (which are Anything But Holy Spirit driven). In fact, Linda has a couple of these DVD's right now. I'm sure she's gonna Flip when she sees Mrs. Benny Hinn telling folks they need 'a holy gost enema'
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SoftTouch:
I Don't watch TV preachers, but that doesn't mean that I haven't seen PLENTY of clips of these preachers preaching their heresy. I've said this Many Times on this BBS... but of course you wouldn't bother telling that part...

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The operative word here is 'clips', by someone else saying that they call themselves 'little gods', which shows you are falling into a trap of lies by these sites. I never, ever heard them call themselves little gods or messiahs. Their original intent has been twisted.

I give up folks. Corrie ten Boom was one of the most saintly women who ever lived, and to treat her with such great disrespect is another exercise in grossly manipulating the words of a truly Holy Spirit-guided woman.
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 
Well, I probably would not refer to the videos because I would not feel comfortable enough to know that they were or were not authentic.

It is just too easy to manipulate video and audio these days. I am always skeptical and I wont put my own reputation on something unless I can document it myself.

I did see that clip of Hinn's wife and yes it does look authentic; I looked at Hal and said: "Ughhh do you think that is for real or do you thnk someone did something with that clip?" I would not refer to that clip because I did not see it from the source- TBN Archive or transcript. That is just me. I dont want to put my reputation on the line for someone else's work that I cant personally authenticate.

Maybe that comes from college, where you would be slain for developing a paper on 2nd hand documentation, I dont know.

Maybe it comes from my mom beating in my head to only believe half of what you see. Maybe it comes from my dad preaching that you should guard your reputation and good name with all diligence, I dont know, but it is something that is very ingrained in me.


The person who narrates these videos seems to me sincere, in that they are not presented in a way that seems to be with guille or agenda against anyone, but with a sincere desire to warn the church, but I have no way of knowing where he got the clips and the integrity of that person, so for me it just would not be my choice to put my reputation on them, though they are useful to put in your mind to watch for these things yourself, that when yo hear such error, you are aware of such error... they can at least teach us to proceed with caution.

If I could go to the TV station's archives and see it there or read the transcript that would be one thing. I would not repeat it or use it as reference, if I could not go back to the proported source of its airing.

When I read or hear something someone says so and so said... I go looking for the place where they said it.. a book or a magazine...most print media has easily accessable archives. If I can find that actual archived article and see the print for myself, then I may refer to it.

We dont have TV now, but I have seen plenty of TBN to have heard with my own ears most of what I hear being said about these people coming from their own mouths.

I also have over the years gotten their magazines and I could kick myself today for not having kept them for reference. I have also heard some of the teaching tapes with my own ears as the actual ministry produced tape played on my own tape player. Some of these older tapes by Copeland, Hinn, and Meyers can be gotten from the local library.

To me, it is like Hardcore said, if you know the scripture and if you will listen carefully, you can hardly view any of these folks that you do not have the Spirit pull on your ear and say ..ooh, wait, that is not right. It really is a matter of what you want to hear. Many are willingly ignorant.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
The most priceless video is the one where that weird-looking cackling woman is strategically placed in the front of the camera and manages to make it to all of their revivals.

Same video - different WOF speaker. A real joke.
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

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I give up folks. Corrie Ten Boom was one of the most saintly women who ever lived, and to treat her with such great disrespect is another exercise in grossly manipulating the words of a truly Holy Spirit-guided woman.

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Does the fact that I respect Cory Ten Boom and believe her to be a godly woman (and I do) mean that I must agree with every word she has ever said? Was she will she walked this earth Christ? Perfect? Incapable of error? Have not we all come short of the glory of God???? Where does the Bible teach that some are more saintly than others in Christ's church?

Cory Ten Boom was human just like you or I. And capable of the same error as you or I. She was no more saintly than you if you are born again. We all are righteous because Christ is righteous and we are righteous ONLY ( No more or Less) to the degree that HE is righteous because it is HIS righteousness that we wear; if we were not wearing HIS we would have none!

Paul himself taught that he himself should be rebuked if he spoke contrary to the word!

I ask you again HisGrace, instead of doing your normal routine of making accusations against the poster aa you have just done with me saying that I have disrespected Cory Ten Boom, why dont you give us some scripture to show that this statement fits a Biblical World view????

You said we need the Gospel truth, show us the Gospel truth that says that God's power alone be free to work, only when human effort has done its best and failed.

I dont disrepect Cory Ten Boom;I admire Cory Ten Boom, but I fundamentally disagree with her assertation here, though I have read the book and I fully understand what she was sharing and ask you to show some scripture that shows it lines up with the Bible.

White Eagle in another thread spoke of the difference in sharing our witness and making doctrine out of it. Cory Ten Boom has here shared her witness and I understand it; but when you posted her comment as doctrine and out of context, Deb's ears perked up and I agree that they should have because this statement does not line up with a Biblical worldview.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Linda, what did Hal think of it? And have you watched the one that shows Hagin (I think it's Hagin?) so 'drunk in the spirit' that they have to hold him up?
 

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Posted by helpforhomeschoolers (Member # 15) on :
 

quote:

---

The most priceless video is the one where that weird-looking cackling woman is strategically placed in the front of the camera and manages to make it to all of their revivals.

Same video - different WOF speaker. A real joke.

---

I dont think that I am familiar with this.

Deb, I think that Hal and I are pretty much one in our feelings about these things; Hal is more cautious about his name and reputation and witness than I am of my own. They were interesting but not things we did not already know, and they were things that we both saw, good to keep in the back of one's mind, but not something that we would speak of except where it was something we could personally attest to. I think I fell asleep during the one that has Hagin in it. I am terrible about that. I fell asleep and it took me 3 times to get through the first one. Poor Hal, He sat through them with me repeatedly!

I cant get the weather one to work which is one that I really wanted to see. We are going to try it on the Laptop.

My husband's heart was broken a few years ago to learn of some of the apostasies of Hinn and we learned them from listening to Hinn and seeing where he does not line up with the Bible. We were into these people and we supported serveral of their ministries. And we feel that God allowed us to see so that we would know, when we spoke against these things which we would come to be le to do as we learned the scripture, but in the beginning we did not know the scripture and we were hungry and so we listened to about every preacher that we could get our hands on and then slowly, God taught us to study the word alone, prayerfully seeking HIS guidance and Spirit's leading and slowly one by one we became aware of the apostasies being taught out there.

But it was very hard for Hal...he did not want it to be so with Hinn. But when the Spirit convicts you of something, there is no denying it, if you are walking in the spirit.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Point taken about my choice of 'sources' but at least you know (from experience) that the things that lecturer was talking about are real. I can't promise that I won't ever use a questionable source again (even though I believe the clips on that DVD are authentic).

I have in the past given many 'quotes' of those teachers, complete with references to the tapes, dates, and transcripts they came from, only to be told that the quotes were too old...

Oh well, I can only try and if folks dismiss the articles I post, maybe they'll listen to your first hand experience? However, I know that some will not... In the end all we can do is be faithful to expose the lies and the job of Convicting the heart belongs to God alone
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
You said we need the Gospel truth, show us the Gospel truth that says that God's power alone be free to work, only when human effort has done its best and failed.

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quote:

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Point taken about my choice of 'sources' but at least you know (from experience) that the things that lecturer was talking about are real. I can't promise that I won't ever use a questionable source again (even though I believe the clips on that DVD are authentic).

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quote:

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I have in the past given many 'quotes' of those teachers, complete with references to the tapes, dates, and transcripts they came from, only to be told that the quotes were too old...

---

quote:

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Oh well, I can only try and if folks dismiss the articles I post, maybe they'll listen to your first hand experience? However, I know that some will not... In the end all we can do is be faithful to expose the lies and the job of Convicting the heart belongs to God alone

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Nope, they will dismiss me as a liar, but that is ok, because God knows. It is not my job to convict people of anything. Conviction is by the Spirit. Ps... they dismiss the articles I post too! Which is why I select them as carefully as I can. I figure I can get myself in enough trouble all by myself.

Right now, over at eric's there are at least three really good articles I would like to post on end time stuff, but I cant because there is maybe one line in each of them that someone would use to bring can bring criticism that would take away from the whole article which is a good and truthful article and someone with discernement could read it and take the good and leave the bad, but that is not what would be done by those who will always defend men over the word. So, I dont post the article and that is a shame.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
I hear ya Sis

I could probably read those three articles (and probably have) and not catch the line or two you're referring to... I'd likely be focused on the message the article was trying to point out. (The devils in the details huh?)
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I certainly can see that God allowed Job to become completely stripped of all he had. What I dont see is how this supports the idea that God's power was not free to work until Job had done all he could humanly do. In fact the whole story of Job to me is contrary to this thought.

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quote:

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Is there something you do to get it to print that info and I dont know the trick or do you type that every time?

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The video is compilied of unaltered clips of Paul Crouch, Rodney Howard-Browne, Benny Hinn, Jan Crouch, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Steve Brock, Steve Hill, John Avanzini, and more...

You'll be shocked, stupefied, appalled, disgusted, and saddened all in one as you watch the outrageous antics of well-known Christian celebrities and their untold thousands of gullible followers.

You'll shake your head in dismay as you see men barking like dogs and being led around on leashes; women howling like wolves and braying like donkeys; and profanity shouted from the pulpit.

You'll recoil in astonishment to discover supposed Christian leaders scoffing at Bible doctrine; a televangelist and his associates sharing an opium smoking pipe ; possessed people slithering like serpents at crusades; and thousands of worshippers blasphemously speaking in false tongues and breaking out in roaring, hysterical laughter...

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I can't believe that mature, educated people in the 21st century would fall for this sort of garbage. If you do, the devil really has you deceived. Absolutey ridiculous. Come on folks - don't fall into this trap.

Watch for the cackling woman gang. She goes to every convention. You can't miss her - she probably will be at the very front of every video.

BTW if you would use the 'url' feature for your links we won't get such wide margins.
 

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Posted by hardcore (Member # 4492) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
I can't believe that mature, educated people in the 21st century would fall for this sort of garbage. If you do, the devil really has you deceived. Absolutey ridiculous. Come on folks - don't fall into this trap.

Watch for the cackling woman gang. She goes to every convention. You can't miss her - she probably will be at the very front of every video.

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quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
HisGrace, I am aware that tapes, images and such can be alter, but am not aware of this about the "cackling woman" could you give me some resources in which I can see what you are talking about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

quote:

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:
HisGrace, I am aware that tapes, images and such can be alter, but am not aware of this about the "cackling woman" could you give me some resources in which I can see what you are talking about.

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Someone provided a link a year ago or so. I have looked all over for it, but it is like for a needle in a haystack.

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Grace;

I suggest we go to any random church supper, and I'm sure we will find the mother lode of "cackling women".
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I suggest we go to any random church supper, and I'm sure we will find the mother lode of "cackling women".

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
The many are on the road to destruction, only the few have found the narrow path to eternal life.

As you ponder this remember it is only those striving to enter the Kingdom (Preaching, Teaching or Listening to the Gospel) to which Yeshua is speaking when He says ...

13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait• gate•: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction•, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait• is the gate•, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life•, and few there be that find it.

15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know• them by their fruits•. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good• fruit•; but a corrupt• tree bringeth forth devil• fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit• is hewn• down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits•(that which looks like Yeshua) ye shall know them.

21 ¶ Not every one that saith• unto me, Lord•, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth• the will of my Father which is in heaven•.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied• in thy name? and in thy name• have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew• you: depart• from me, ye that work iniquity•.

24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth• these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I• will liken him unto a wise man, which built• his house upon a• rock:

25 And the rain• descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a crock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house•; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these• sayings, the people were astonished• at his doctrine•:

29 For he taught them as one having authority•, and not as the• scribes.

Any Preaching that does not bring forth Holiness (meaning a separation from this world) is false preaching.

All Preaching is to conform the hearer into the image of The Author and Finisher of Salvation "Yeshua"...

Not telling you how to be happy, successful, and healthy.
False teachers are deceiving even true Christians with their feel-good and do-good messages that entertain rather than emphasize that man is a sinner, and the shed blood of Christ is the only redemption from Hell for eternity. The prosperity message that God owes great wealth and ecstatic healings and miracles, if we but follow the false teachers’ interpretations of God’s holy Word, is leading millions into darkness and spiritual poverty. The “falling away” or apostasy of 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, seems well underway in our time.

Can Antichrist, the ultimate deceiver, be far behind in galloping onto the stage of end-time history?
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The “falling away” or apostasy of 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, seems well underway in our time.

Can Antichrist, the ultimate deceiver, be far behind in galloping onto the stage of end-time history?

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quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Grace;I suggest we go to any random church supper, and I'm sure we will find the mother lode of "cackling women".

---

2 entries found for cackle.
cack·le ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kkl)
v. cack·led, cack·ling, cack·les v. intr.
To make the shrill cry characteristic of a hen after laying an egg.
To laugh or talk in a shrill manner.

v. tr.
To utter in cackles: cackled a sarcastic reply.

n.
The act or sound of cackling. Shrill laughter.
Foolish chatter.

The profound history of cackle - [Middle English cakelen, probably from Middle Low German kkeln, of imitative origin.]
-------------------------------------------------
Cackle 2
: the sound made by a hen after laying an egg 2: noisy talk [syn: yak, yack, yakety-yak, chatter] 3: a loud laugh suggestive of a hen's cackle v 1: talk or utter in a cackling manner; "The women cackled when they saw the movie star step out of the limousine" 2: squawk shrilly and loudly, characteristic of hens 3: emit a loud, unpleasant kind of laughing
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
HisGrace:

I was discussing this topic with my husband; ie the manifestation of "the cackling woman" and other such antics that have people here upset with the WOF movement.

One thing that is not mentioned, that occurred to me like a ton of bricks; is that whenever Jesus Christ showed up, such as preaching in the Temple, or walking the roads of Galilee and Judea
and crossing the Sea of Galilee by boat is that the demons always manifested themselves.


All the gospels have examples of this, but Mark seems to highlight this truth about Christ more than the others.

Mark 1:23-26 And there was in their synagogue a man with unclean spirit; and he cried out, saying "Let us alone, what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Narareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God!" And Jesus rebuked him, saying : "hold thy peace and come out of him!"
And when the unclean spirit had torn him and cried out with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Mark 1:34 "And he healed many that were sick with divers diseases, and cast out many devils and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him."

The scribes believed that Jesus was from the prince of devils because he cast out devils.Mark 3:22-30. Here we are given the warning about blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Mark 5:2 "And when he(Jesus) was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit.
Mark 5:6-7 "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him. And cried with a loud voice and said, "what have I to do with with thee Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God that thou torment me not.

In Matthew 8:29 (this same story has this addition) And behold they cried out(the legion)saying "What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time.

In James 2:19 "Thou believeth that there is one God; thou doeth well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

In spirit filled churches we "see" these manifestations of people who have devils very often. Even in Christians or people who have gone to church all their lives.

Jesus is the Light of the World. His presence uncovers all. Churches that are filled with Holy Spirit filled worshipping Christians will always uncover the devils.

That is why one will see weird manifestations in services, and the mistake is to call it a manifestion of the Holy Spirit.

One example that is a personal one for me.

When I was 16 and attending a Baptist church, the pastor was doing a Bible study on demons.
The sermon was scary enough to me, and many others I talked to later all felt scared. The service became even scarier when another girl who I knew, but was not friends with, suddenly stood up with her hands over her head and she broke the silence of the altar call by saying:"listen my children, listen to the truth."
I turned around to look behind myself as the voice seemed to eminate from the back of the church. When I saw it was 9the girl I knew who speaks with a lisp0 speaking so cystal clear and she was sitting across from me, not behind me, I really got scared. (I thought she from the devil and trying to disrupt the service) The pastor's face was white as a sheet and he and the elders evidently thought the same thing that I was thinking, that this was a manifestation of Satan in our "godly" service. The pastor ordered the girl removed and to not allow her to speak any further.

I went home with friends who drove me to the service and I was shaking uncontrollably all the way home. I couldn't stop shaking, it was like having the chills with a high fever shakes. I slept with one of my sisters with the Bible under my pillow that night I was so traumatized by this and didn't hardly sleep all night, as I felt every noise I heard was a demon coming to get me.

Now the pastor did plead the Blood frequently during this service. So how could a devil be able to speak during this service? Pleading the Blood didn't make me feel any better either at that time period.

So was this girl of the devil or of God?

It came to me while talking to my husband this morning, that the reason I was so scared and trembling so violently, after this girl spoke, was that She was filled with the Holy Spirit and the devils in me at that time were what was making me shake with fear. Jesus showed up that day in this humble, poor, ugly girl, that I had
never given the time of day to.

The BAPTISTS IN IGNORANCE had kicked out and shut up the Holy Spirit in this young christian girl and called her a devil.

Actually it was many of us in the church who had the unseen and hidden devils.

Food for thought. I'll add some other examples later.
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by SoftTouch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by becauseHElives:
The “falling away” or apostasy of 2 Thessalonians, chapter 2, seems well underway in our time.

Can Antichrist, the ultimate deceiver, be far behind in galloping onto the stage of end-time history?

---

I know I hear hoof beats...

Good Word my Brother, Amen!

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I am hearing the Ram's Horn Trumpet and the Call to Battle, myself. Gathering the Army on the hill with the Rising of the Son....
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
It came to me while talking to my husband this morning, that the reason I was so scared and trembling so violently, after this girl spoke, was that She was filled with the Holy Spirit and the devils in me at that time were what was making me shake with fear. Jesus showed up that day in this humble, poor, ugly girl, that I had
never given the time of day to.

The BAPTISTS IN IGNORANCE had kicked out and shut up the Holy Spirit in this young christian girl and called her a devil.

Actually it was many of us in the church who had the unseen and hidden devils.

Food for thought. I'll add some other examples later.

---

quote:

---

One thing that is not mentioned, that occurred to me like a ton of bricks; is that whenever Jesus Christ showed up, such as preaching in the Temple, or walking the roads of Galilee and Judea and crossing the Sea of Galilee by boat is that the demons always manifested themselves.

---

There came a day in a certain city in the USA that I was walking on the sidewalk and it was like the Spirit of God came on my that day as I walked.

Within minutes I was approached my a homeless man who asked if I was Jesus and I said no, but I am a disciple and know Him."

And sister WhiteEagle, as I walked on in this certain street in that same hour, there was a guy with a video camera and a computer screen, and he took a video computer picture of my head that day when the Spirit came on me. Maybe I'll show it one day on this CBBS.

And then, sister WhiteEagle, I walked past a restaurant in whose window was sitting a homeless-type man, who turned to me looking at him through the plate-glass window and I could hear him say, "I know who you are, I know who you are", although I had never met him. But I knew that he was speaking about Jesus who had come on me.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
"keep so busy praising my Jesus, ain't got time to die."
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
sister WhiteEagle writes

quote:

---

One thing that is not mentioned, that occurred to me like a ton of bricks; is that whenever Jesus Christ showed up, such as preaching in the Temple, or walking the roads of Galilee and Judea and crossing the Sea of Galilee by boat is that the demons always manifested themselves.

---

There came a day in a certain city in the USA that I was walking on the sidewalk and it was like the Spirit of God came on my that day as I walked.

Within minutes I was approached my a homeless man who asked if I was Jesus and I said no, but I am a disciple and know Him."

And sister WhiteEagle, as I walked on in this certain street in that same hour, there was a guy with a video camera and a computer screen, and he took a video computer picture of my head that day when the Spirit came on me. Maybe I'll show it one day on this CBBS.

And then, sister WhiteEagle, I walked past a restaurant in whose window was sitting a homeless-type man, who turned to me looking at him through the plate-glass window and I could hear him say, "I know who you are, I know who you are", although I had never met him. But I knew that he was speaking about Jesus who had come on me.

God bless, BORN AGAIN
"keep so busy praising my Jesus, ain't got time to die."

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quote:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
It came to me while talking to my husband this morning, that the reason I was so scared and trembling so violently, after this girl spoke, was that She was filled with the Holy Spirit and the devils in me at that time were what was making me shake with fear. Jesus showed up that day in this humble, poor, ugly girl, that I had
never given the time of day to.

The BAPTISTS IN IGNORANCE had kicked out and shut up the Holy Spirit in this young christian girl and called her a devil.

Actually it was many of us in the church who had the unseen and hidden devils.

Food for thought. I'll add some other examples later.

---

That is a very interesting example and a very sobering thought, WhiteEagle. We have to be so careful not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

They were acting like the legalistic Pharisess who had a veil over their eyes and probably, in their ignorance, were frightened by the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 9:34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yahsway:
WhiteEagle, I can appreciate everything you say about the Holy Spirit and the manifestations.

But what concerns me in a lot of todays churchs who are opened to such, is that if everyone is talking in tongues at the same time, or running around, ect... that those who are unbelievers or uniformed as Paul states might say that "you are out of your mind" and possibly leave the service.

Paul goes on to say "Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be 2 or at the most 3, and each in turn (not at the same time) and let one interpret.

But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. And then he says, "For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.

Therefore brethren, desire earnstly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.
Let all things be done decently and in order.

I think a lot of todays assemblies have moved away from this instruction and so there comes some confusion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
I have experienced what is called "slain in the spirit". I fought it the first time, due to all the talk about group hypnosis etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
For over 20 years we have gone to churches that have been open to the gifts of the Holy Spirit operating. It is always a blessing. They have order, miracles, healings, many being slain in the spirit, and the fullness of God all around us.

It isn't unholy.........or freaky....or scary........it is wonderful.

These aren't services that last 1 hour. They are bible believing ministers that preach. The members worship for many hours each time the doors are open for a service.

I know many of you that hesitate from attending these services just don't really understand. I pray you give them another chance.

Glory be to God for all HE has done!

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Any time I have seen people leave in the middle of a church service, it was after someone gave a general word of edification or prophecy.

I agree that some churches are totally unruly.

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sister WhiteEagle, I don't know the context in which this what said, I only have so much time, but if I were to judge this by its above perimeters, I personally do not mind at all if someone, anyone, do all want to go?, in the middle of whatever is going on.

I am all for, may I sound almost WildB-like but not that far right, I am all for the attendees of a congregation not having their free will impaired.

This is a free country; freedom of expression and freedom of decision for each individual must remain paramount on earth. Led by the Spirit to what extent the soul is led, yes. But thinking it is as good an idea to leave in the middle of the sermon as at the end, we must, for who knows what is occurring in this Christian's personal life?

God Elohim of Israel bless our Internet church. BORN AGAIN in the USA by the
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
sister WhiteEagle, as sister Pleasemaranatha once said to me (I hope you don't mind, Plmntha), you're a HOOT.

You also write

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Any time I have seen people leave in the middle of a church service, it was after someone gave a general word of edification or prophecy.

I agree that some churches are totally unruly.

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sister WhiteEagle, I don't know the context in which this what said, I only have so much time, but if I were to judge this by its above perimeters, I personally do not mind at all if someone, anyone, do all want to go?, in the middle of whatever is going on.

I am all for, may I sound almost WildB-like but not that far right, I am all for the attendees of a congregation not having their free will impaired.

This is a free country; freedom of expression and freedom of decision for each individual must remain paramount on earth. Led by the Spirit to what extent the soul is led, yes. But thinking it is as good an idea to leave in the middle of the sermon as at the end, we must, for who knows what is occurring in this Christian's personal life?

God Elohim of Israel bless our Internet church. BORN AGAIN in the USA by the

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WhiteEagle - I suggest we go to any random church supper, and I'm sure we will find the mother lode of "cackling women"

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
In context I wrote that to point out that when the Holy Spirit is convicting people, some people will leave in the middle of a service. And for various other reasons also. I wasn't trying to impinge on free will, as that wasn't the context of my post. I wasn't trying to say that they aren't allowed to leaven anytime. Only pointing out how the Holy Spirit's wooing affect us at times. It's a spiritual battle.

MY point was, since I have personally experienced this wanting to leave syndrome myself. If one is influenced by the Lies of the Enemy in one's mind (and Christians are subject to this) If someone is preaching the Word, one will have a conflict in one's spirit as the enemy struggles against us receiving the WORD.

That's what I kind of mean. When God's Word goes forth, demons are stirred up in the people who are in bondage to their lies.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
The video of the cackling woman, to which I have referred, definitely has been doctored. It is obvious that it is a hoax.

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
The video of the cackling woman, to which I have referred, definitely has been doctored. It is obvious that it is a hoax.

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No disrespect intended, but I think this is a big fat DUH.

You keep mentioning this as if anyone here actually believes it to be true. It has nothing to do with the fact that certain televangelists, who you defend, teach doctrine contrary to scripture.

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quote:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

quote:

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
The video of the cackling woman, to which I have referred, definitely has been doctored. It is obvious that it is a hoax.

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No disrespect intended, but I think this is a big fat DUH.

You keep mentioning this as if anyone here actually believes it to be true. It has nothing to do with the fact that certain televangelists, who you defend, teach doctrine contrary to scripture.

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Sorry, but it was introduced on the Exposing forum as a weapon against the televanagelists.

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Originally posted by hardcore:
Well, like I said; that particular "weapon" isn't necessary. They condemn themselves with their own words and actions.

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Originally posted by wparr:
Benny Hinn condems himself with his PROVEN words of false prophecy

That FACT alone makes EVERYTHING else of hinn NOT OF GOD

I don't hate hinn, I hate how he deceives so many of faith and money, but I pity hinn

I don't belive God's Word shows a place for the false prophets like hinn to repent

It's NOT a pretty picture


Matthew 7:22-23
(22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
(23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


Just because they CLAIM to be carrying the "Jesus" banner does not mean anything.

False prophets ARE DAMNED

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Originally posted by becauseHElives:

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WhiteEagle - I suggest we go to any random church supper, and I'm sure we will find the mother lode of "cackling women"

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I suggest we return to Scripture!

I do not go to any Church that allows women to cackle, the Scriputures say let everything be done decent and in order.

"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized" (1 Corinthians 14:33-38).

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Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
Dear Father please forgive everyone that sins against you. Help us forgive others 70 time 7 a day. Help us have compassion for all with forgiveness. Encourage all to pray for the misguided and not hold any anger in our hearts when we lay down to sleep. Thanks and amen.

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Yes Paul did instruct the Corinthians about order and for "the women" TO KEEP SILENCE.

God created women to be more verbal and socially interactive then men. On an average, an average women ratttles off 5000 words whereas a man may only spit out 100.

Women frequently are just bubbling over with verbage, and yes we need to get a little wisdom and discipline. Men aren't as wordy as woman.

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It is a pity that Paul didn't have duct tape back then


 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 
First to respond to the forgiveness issue…Those that will not forgive will, will not be forgiven and with the same measure an individual forgives the same measure will be meet back. That is plain teaching from Scripture.

But if you are trying to say forgive and let the “ false teacher, heretic or antichrist” continue without exposing, marking and shunning, the scriptures teach to such thing.

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (KJV Romans 16:17)

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. (KJV Philippians 3:17)

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Is your church under the Law or under Grace?

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Should women dress as the Muslim women do?

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Should women bow down before their men's wishes?

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Should women be relegated as second class citizens?

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My point? I guess I see that Paul was addressing the natural reality of the nature of men and women in those verses. They do not mean women have to be subservient in a slave-like way or only speak when ALLOWED TO SPEAK BY A MAN.

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Your point is wrong, the point is a woman in the Church may only speak when she is under the authority of a man, be it her husband, dad, a pastor or some other recognized authority over her life.

I did not say it Yahweh did!
 

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Posted by wparr (Member # 891) on :
 
I pray for the deceived that listen to hinn, because God's Word is CLEAR we shouldn't.

But as far a hinn himself

As I showed in my previous post,

and this (among others)

2 Peter 2:1-3
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
(2) Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
(3) and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.


That it is to late to pray for them.

But wouldn't it be AWESOME if hinn stood up PUBLICLY, before the many cameras he owns, and REPRENTED, saying he was wrong and his teachings and works were NOT from Yahweh Elohim

What a day of rejoicing that would be
 

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Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
I just hope that wparr you and all pray for the people you judge as false prophets. I hope you or others that post against ministers don't go to bed angry.

It will hinder your growth. Anger is very harmful.

Love covers a multitude of sins. Pray for hinn and any you accuse. Lift them up to God in prayer. God says to pray for our enemies and LOVE them. (I guess they are your enemies.)
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I just hope that wparr you and all pray for the people you judge as false prophets. I hope you or others that post against ministers don't go to bed angry.

It will hinder your growth. Anger is very harmful.

Love covers a multitude of sins. Pray for hinn and any you accuse. Lift them up to God in prayer. God says to pray for our enemies and LOVE them. (I guess they are your enemies.)

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Originally posted by Pleasemaranatha:
I just hope that wparr you and all pray for the people you judge as false prophets. I hope you or others that post against ministers don't go to bed angry.

It will hinder your growth. Anger is very harmful.

Love covers a multitude of sins. Pray for hinn and any you accuse. Lift them up to God in prayer. God says to pray for our enemies and LOVE them. (I guess they are your enemies.)

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Originally posted by hardcore:

Regarding women being silent in the church:

I also agree with bHl.

White Eagle - I think your reasoning, although valid from the world's point of view, is just that; a world view based on man's reasoning, not scripture.

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I happen to agree with WhiteEagle. I find that people sometimes love to take a scripture out of context and run with it without doing any research.

1 Cor. 14: 34
Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak.

1 Cor. 14:1-4 also says : Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongues does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

Before someone comes along and tries to dissect this scripture by showing us that it says 'he', please notice that it also says 'does not speak to men',and also 'speaks to men' which means everyone. The male gender is used when speaking universally to all 'mankind'

~Women also prophesied and Paul had women helping him in strong stewardship roles. He took Priscilla, along with her husband Aquila, around to different countries preaching with him.

These are scriptures where women were mentioned as being strong and in leadship positions.

Acts 2:17
Speaking of the last days - In those days, I will pour out my Spirit upon all my servants, men and women alike, and they will prophesy.

Judges 4:4
Deborah, the wife of Lappidoth, was a prophetess, who had become a judge in Israel.

Luke 2:36 Ann, a prophetess, was also in the Temple.
(other prophetesses are also in mentioned in the Bible)

Romans 16:1
Our sister Phoebe, a deaconess in the church in Cenchrea, will be coming to see you soon.

Romans 16:2 - Paul said -
Greetings Priscilla and Aquilla. They have been co-workers in my ministry for Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:2,3 Paul also said -

And now I want to plead with those two women, Euodia and Syntyche. Please, because you belong to the the Lord, settle your disagreement. And I ask you, my true teammates, to help these women, for they worked hard with me in telling others the Good News.

Romans 16:6 Paul once again -
Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you. (Probably Martha's sister).
 

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Posted by Pleasemaranatha (Member # 5150) on :
 
Hardcore wrote:
To clarify; we judge their words, not the person. Big difference.

As has been stated many times; they don't need us to condemn them, they do it to themselves. We are not to tolerate teaching contrary to scripture, let alone defend it.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't go to bed angry.

I'm really not sure if I would consider a false teacher an enemy. I've never thought of it in those terms.

If they preach contrary to God's Word, does that make them an enemy of God? If they are an enemy of God, are they my enemy?

(from me:)

I am glad you don't go to bed angry.

But, if they are your enemies shouldn't you bless them, do good to them, and pray for them?

Passage Matthew 5:44-45:

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
 

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Posted by WhiteEagle (Member # 3728) on :
 
BecauseHelives:

You're article about submission is something I CAN agree with.

The problem as the article states is women being forced into submission by the church, society and their own fathers and or husbands.

I personally like the idea of submssion being MY CHOICE.

Their are styles of dressing inbetween the prositute and Muslim women's total body and face covering.

Why do you go to such extremes on dress from one end of the spectrum to the other?
 

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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on :
 

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WhiteEagle, I personally like the idea of submssion being MY CHOICE.

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WhiteEagle, Should women dress as the Muslim women do?

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Originally posted by light torch:
Claiming a female for your wife without knowing God's will in this matter is dangerous even covetous or asking God to be a successful lawyer when God purpose for you his to be a doctor. Or expecting God to give you a million dollars without sowing and nurturing that hope with work and prayer.

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Originally posted by wparr:
But you HONESTLY have to admitt, most of those that "name it and claim it" are doing that BEFORE truely seeking Yahweh's will.

THEY will it and "name it and claim it"

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You're right. I've seen and heard it myself. They treat God likes He's a vending machine.
 

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Posted by Inky (Member # 5582) on :
 
Please forgive the grammar.

Acts 17:11 11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.


The only Word Faith testimony I saw was Light Torch. That doesn’t mean there isn’t others it was the only one I saw. I wanted to agree with Light Torch 100 percent on everything that was said in his/her post. I to have was once a member of Word Faith and everything Light Torch said is true. I will give my testimony of what I know of Word Faith too. But before I begin.

Recently I ran into someone online that I believe to be Word Faith who seems to have a huge following of innocents. This person wanted me to confess I did not have bipolar. Lie to world and tell them I did not have it. I knew right away this was Word Faith. I wondered if they knew exactly what Word Faith taught because that Faith is sneaky. It been around since 1963 and people still are not aware they believe they are “little gods.” So I thought I try to tell and I asked him if he was Word Faith and does he believe he is a “little god?” I asked two times point blank but each time I got no answer. I was told he did not want to argue. I understand not wanting to argue. But I believe that we have every right to know what a person believes who is sharing the “gospel” with us. Giving No answers is not good enough.

Now lets get into my testimony:

A few years ago I ended up in a Word Faith Church. At the time I did not know what that was. Nor did I know I was a member of one. It seemed pretty awesome at the time. On Wednesday they was teaching us Greek and Hebrew. At least I thought that was what we would be learning when we started going there. They actually only taught us 3 words Rhema, Logos, and Elohiym, now that I think about it. At the time I didn’t realize they was preparing us. So they can lead us up to believing we was “little gods” and to confessing what we want.


Definition:
Elohiym:0430: ~yhla
1. (Plural)
a. rulers, judges
b. divine ones
c. angels
d. gods

If I could remember the scripture they used I would post it here. But this is the Hebrew word they used to start our teachings to teach us that we were “little gods.” I do remember that in most translations of the bible the words that are actually used are "little judges." Word Faith does not believe little judges are suppose to be there but infact that the scripture should of said "little gods."

One thing to remember when “choosing “ a word a definition from a dictionary or different language is context. We would never be gods unless it was a title because we are humans not gods.

They take other examples from the bible to back this up too. These are true statements but unless you really have been taught right out what Word Faith believes they seem innocent enough. They talk about Image of God, but in the context they mean they are saying we were created like God in every aspect even as a god.
But if they just throw at you the statement in the “image of God” at you and you have no clue what they really believe then you are looking at it and saying to yourself that is the truth. But it is when they teach in secret what they really mean. They go back to Genesis 3:5- For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. They believe that at this time we were like gods and we handed over our god like authority to Satan. You think that they would notice that Satan was trying to deceive them into believing they would be like God if they took from the tree of Knowledge which is exactly what Word Faith is doing . Telling us if we get the formula right we will be like God. And why do they tell us this? Because they believe that the “end of times” would be fought in the Spirit. Is what they teach there for we need to be in the Spirit and that would make us like God. Which leads into confessing.
The first Adam lost our god like authority. They showed this through showing how God had given Adam dominion over everything. Now When The Second Adam Jesus Christ came and died for us we got our god like authority back. We were taught that we did not need to ask for God’s Will that that showed a lack of faith.

Revelation 13:1"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy."

Blasphemy Biblically Defined...

John 10:33"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."


The scriptures they showed us to Confess what we want were all taken out of context. The main one I remember actually meant go spread the gospel it didn’t mean confess the word. But to prepare us for Confessing God’s Word they taught us that God was the Word and Jesus was made Flesh. You got to remember they use a lot of truths mixed with non-truths. So after showing us this in the bible, which is in the bible. That how they prepared us to speak God’s Word to get what we want. Our church prayer lines did not pray for people. They only had prayer lines to teach people to confess Gods Word to get what they wanted.I am not sure if I mention this already, but we were told that praying God's Will showed a lacked of faith and we were not to pray that. We were told that God didn’t want us to be poor. God didn’t want us to be sick. Etc. We never were told that trails were for teaching and so that we could mature and become better Christians. We were told if we said anything negative this could affect our positive confessions for what we want. We could not even make a joke. In everything they taught. They taught less prayer and more confessing.

For those who believe in the HOly Spirit and Gifts. Well the Gifts are shoved to the side. You can do all that for yourself now. More I think about it. The whole religion is about self and not about God if you get to the root of the believes of it.


Our Church also had a television program. They told us one day that they cut parts out of the video taping of the service because the world was not ready to hear the truth yet. On my last day at that Church we were told what we could and could not say about our Church. Actually word for word as to what our response should be if anyone asked us.


I have personally also heard Kenneth Copeland say on television on his program that we are "little gods" and I think I heard Creflo Dollar say the same thing. But I do know I heard Copeland for sure.
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Welcome to the Board Inky And PRAISE GOD for Your Testimony! And for pulling you out of that church and opening your eyes to the deception there!

Thank You for sharing that!
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
Strange, but any of the WOF speakers I have listened to lift up Jesus and the saving power of His blood on that cruel cross.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross
 

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Posted by SoftTouch (Member # 2316) on :
 
Wow... this is Sadder then words can express

Sometimes I wonder if Jesus Himself came down and grabbed some folks by the shoulders - spoke the Truth Directly to them face to face - if their eyes and ears would be open then?


 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Hinn is a fraud, a liar, a deceiver, and an absolute false prophet, a money-grubbing snakeoil salesman in the House of the Lord.

Open your eyes, your ears, and your heart to the truth of God's eternal Word, and it is certainly not to be found in the false apostles of the Word of Faith Movement, and their teaching which tickles the ears and stirs the imaginations.

2 Tim. 4:
3: For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


"Here's the way you activate a miracle. You're not responsible to perform a miracle, only to begin a miracle. And you do that with a seed...You don't believe that God delivers through the power of sowing a seed? Then you'll get a strong arument from me...I hear those phones begining to ring. I'm believing God with you for the greatest breakthrough miracle of your life. I sense the anointing of the Holy Spirit...As we agree together for the greatest miracle, go to your phone. Go to your phone. I sense in my spirit that many of your needs can only be represented by a $1,000 seed."
(Rod Parsley,, Daystar Fall, "Share-A-Thon," September 16, 2004)

"I want the privilege of praying over your seed. I want to pray over your seed and it would be ridiculous for me to pray that God to give it back to you. Because if all He was going to do was give it back to you, you ought to keep it and then you would just have it. That's ridiculous! You got a $100 or a $1,000 and you're gonna give a $1,000 and I tell you God is going to give $1,000 back. Well, you just broke even! You could have kept that $1,000 and not gone through the trouble! Come on church folk! But God is going to give you some more on top of that. And as you sow it [a person shouts, 'Increase!'] I dare you to say it again, [The audience shouts, 'Increase!']. Oh My God! Woo, we're about to get ours in here. I don't know what you're getting out there. Well, we're about, somebody shout, 'Increase!'"
(T. D. Jakes, "Bible Answer Man Show," Hank Hanegraaff, Audio-Clip, July 30, 2004)

"There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell."
(Joyce Meyer, The Most Important Decision You Will Ever Make Booklet, pg. 37, 1991 edition)

"Our words are containers of power. The power of life and death is in the tongue."
(Joyce Meyer, "What Does Your Future Hold?" TBN, May 24, 2004)

"We can kill the plan of God for our lives with a negative confession."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth")

"I want to say it again, be sure you're not killing God's good plan for your life by letting negative words come out of our mouth all of the time. I believe that wrong words affect our health. I would go so far as to say that there are people here today that you may be sick in your body simply because of speaking wrong words, negative words."
(Joyce Meyer, "Mind, Mouth, Moods, and Attitudes," tape 2 of 4 the "Mouth")

Unknown Man: "Why should we do anything to encourage people to become lovers of themselves if Paul in fact warned Timothy that would be the state of Godlessness in the last days?"
Robert Schuller: "I hope you don't preach this. I hope you don't. You would do a lot of damage to a lot of beautiful people. And so, if you preach that text, oh, Man! They'll switch you off! They'll turn on the rock music and Madonna. So please, that stuff, there are Bible passages, just because it's in the Bible doesn't mean you should preach it! But are we so corrupt and are we totally unable to do any good and inclined towards all evil? The answer in the Catechism says, 'Yes, unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.' I don't think that I'll accept that answer. I know people that are not Christians, they're not born again, but they're very kind people. I have to say they do alot of good."
Unknown Man: "Well, Paul says, 'There is no one who does good. No, not one."
Robert Schuller: "Well, I'm not going to say that because I think that leads ultimately to holier than thou-ism self righteousness. And that comes out of the personality of the preacher and it does untold damage."
(Robert Schuller. Audio-Clip from, "Resources on Televangelism," White Horse Inn, Michael Horton)


"To be born again means that we must be changed from a negative to a positive self-image -- from inferiority to self-esteem, from fear to love, from doubt to trust."
(Robert Schuller, "Self-Esteem: the New Reformation," page 68)

"Classical theology has erred in its insistence that theology be 'God-centered,' not 'man-centered'."
(Robert Schuller, "Self-Esteem: the New Reformation," page 64)

"If the gospel of Jesus Christ can be proclaimed as a theology of self-esteem, imagine the health this could generate in society!"
(Robert Schuller, "Self-Esteem: the New Reformation," page 47)

"And what is hell?...A person is in hell when he has lost his self-esteem."(Robert Schuller, "Self-Esteem: the New Reformation," page 14-15)

"Self-esteem then, or 'pride in being a human being,' is the single greatest need facing the human race today."
(Robert Schuller, "Self-Esteem: the New Reformation," page 19)


"God has spoken to you and right now I want you to obey that God is speaking to send in a sacrificial seed. He's telling you an instruction of the Lord, an illogical instruction. Well, Paula you don't understand. I'm telling you, I need to be obedient to the Lord. Cause God even spoke to people, their vacation money, savings, CD's, and investments and you looked at it and said, 'But God, this is it.' And God spoke to you and He told you to sow that into the kingdom of God. And when you obey, that which God has promised to you shall come to pass."
(Paula White, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show," July 23, 2004)

"And there are people right now that God spoke to and that's why God says, 'When you vow a vow to the Lord and if you take that for yourself it is very dangerous.' There are people pastor Benny, I feel the anointing right now [Benny Hinn: I do too] and they don't even understand spiritually what they have done. Because they have touched something holy. What they vowed to the Lord, they said, 'Yes, Benny Hinn, I will support you crusades. Yes, I will send you over.' And you said to the nations, 'Here I come,' you said to the nations, 'I will go.' Because they vowed a vow and then at a time they said, 'Well,' and took it to themselves and don't even understand spiritually the consequences. But, even now God is giving revelation to say, 'Why sit there till you die?' And God's going to give you a second chance. And there's someone that needs to say, I feel the Holy Spirit saying, 'You need to be obedient to the first instruction of the Lord.' The Lord spoke to you to support this ministry. The Lord spoke to you to support the kingdom of God, to send that seed in. And you even held back yourself and didn't even understand what the spiritual ramifications that happened."
(Paula White, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show," July 23, 2004)


"I promise when you give this Passover Offering, God is going to do a miracle...God says, 'Go to the phone.'...God is speaking to somebody right now to give $2,000 right now!...You must go to the phone. Five $200 gifts. Go to the phone! What I'd like for you to do is, I'd like for you to put immediately something on the credit card, right now....Go to your phone. Five $200 offerings. Two $200 gifts. A $400 gift. A $600 gift. The Lord is speaking! This cannot be a light blessing."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)

"Hezekiah turns his face, if I can do this. He turns his face, the Bible says, 'To the wall.' He starts weeping and prays this prayer and he says these words, 'Lord, I pray now that you will remember what I did for you.' All of the sudden, God says, 'What did he do for me?' And it dawned on Him [God] he restored the Passover Offering..." (See Isaiah 38-39)
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)
Note: It dawned on God? This is blasphemy! Nothing dawns on the All Knowing King of the Universe! "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite," Psalm 147:5.

"He [God] said, 'Tell the people to give five $200 offerings. And He said, 'Give three $200 offerings, two $200 offerings."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)

"If they stand before Me [God] empty handed, there will be no angel that will protect them! No angel to lead them to their miracle. Their sickness will stay in their body and I [God] will not be able to fight their enemies nor give them longevity of life..."
(Steve Munsey, "This Is Your Day," Benny Hinn Show, March 16, 2005)
 

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Posted by Inky (Member # 5582) on :
 
Thanks for that information. Especially Joyce Meyer. I needed to see that. I went and looked at a commentary on the scriptures you shared. If these scriptures didn't say it I not sure which ones would.:

2 Tim. 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

quote:

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John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

For the time will come… This is a reason of the solemn charge above given: the time referred to was future, when the apostle wrote, but quickly came on; and the characters of it have appeared more or less in all ages since; and in none more than in ours:

when they will not endure sound doctrine;
the Gospel which contains the wholesome words of Christ, and is sound itself, having no corruption in it, and salutary in its effects to the souls of men; and yet such is the depravity of some men, both in principles and practice, that they cannot receive it, nor bear to hear it, turn their backs on it, express their indignation at it, and treat it not only with neglect, but with ridicule and contempt:

but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers;
not being content with the ministry of one man only, or of a few, though of their own sort; but must follow many, and have heaps of them; which seems to express not only the number of false teachers which they accumulate to themselves, but the confused and indiscreet choice they make of them; and that after their own lusts; choosing to hear such as either indulge them in their sinful lusts and pleasures; or are agreeable to their private corrupt sentiments, in opposition to the generally received doctrine of faith. It is a blessing to have pastors and teachers after God's heart, and who preach according to the word of God; these feed men with knowledge and understanding, ( Jeremiah 3:15 ) but it is a curse upon a people, when they are left to choose teachers after their hearts' lusts:

having itching ears;
always desirous of new things, as the Athenians of old; or loving to have their ears scratched and tickled with smooth things; that are pleasing and agreeable to natural men, and carnal minds; as the purity of human nature, the power of man's free will, the excellency of his righteousness, and the merit of his works, and the like; see ( Isaiah 30:9,10 ) . Now, this being the case, should not discourage, but rather animate the ministers of the Gospel to preach it; for should they desist, in all likelihood the Gospel would soon be gone.

---

That really gives one something to think about.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 
A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly, because it reminds Satan that he was defeated at the cross, and that his time on this earth is running really short.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
Originally posted by HisGrace:

A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly, because it reminds Satan that he was defeated at the cross, and that his time on this earth is running really short.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Chapter and verse please:

HisGrace:

"A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly,"

Chapter and verse please!!!!!!!

Galatians 1:6-9
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

2 Cor. 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

HisGrace you have consistantly defended any televangelist who says the name of Jesus, REGARDLESS of their doctrine and teachings. You consistantly defend liars, false prophets, and deceivers of the un-grounded in the Word.


2 Tim 3:
1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10: But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11: Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Originally posted by HisGrace:

A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly, because it reminds Satan that he was defeated at the cross, and that his time on this earth is running really short.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chapter and verse please:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Caretaker:
When you post error from the teachings of the WOF heresy, then whether you meant por or con, it is contrary to the Word of God.

This statement is error:

"A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly,"

Pleading the blood to drive-out demons, to spiritually "bind Satan or demons", to "beat-up" on Satan with the blood, to attack Satan, is a great deal of error and false teaching from the WOF.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:
HisGrace,

I'm curious.

Do you ever admit that you're wrong?

Or better yet, do you ever think that you're wrong?

---

quote:

---

I agree 100% - HFHS has given us a tremendous amount of food for thought.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Originally posted by HisGrace:

A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly, because it reminds Satan that he was defeated at the cross, and that his time on this earth is running really short.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Chapter and verse please:

HisGrace:

"A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly,"

---------------------------------------

Chapter and verse please!!!!!!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:
HisGrace,

I'm curious.

Do you ever admit that you're wrong?

Or better yet, do you ever think that you're wrong?

Do you ever even contemplate for a minute that there's even the slightest chance that you might be wrong?

Caretaker and HFHS are two of the most honest, biblically sound, doctrinally solid Christians I've ever come across. And quite frankly, none of us has any business arguing with either of them unless we've seriously done our homework. You and I aren't even in their league.

Has it ever occured to you that they might have a point - or two or three? Has it ever occured to you that they just might be right?

I realize that you have to admit to yourself that you might be wrong in order to make the jump to this next one, but here goes:

Do you have any idea how many people you might be misleading with your altered version of scripture? Do you care enough to take a step back and reconsider? If not for yourself, then for others?

The teachers that you defend are wrong and they are dangerous, particularly to those who are new in their faith. It is inexcusable for you to defend them, and yet you continually do so.

Seriously HisGrace, please prayerfully reconsider your stance on this topic. Truly (honestly and heartfelt) search for the truth instead of searching for the next out-of-context scripture in an attempt to back-up your argument.

---

Yada, Yada Yada.

Read my post to Caretaker.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
http://www.letusreason.org/Pent13.htm

Jude 8- 10 - The author describes people in the church who despise authority and speak evil of those who god has given positions of dominion in. not only do they rebel against the government ( which at the time was a one world government ) but they speak evil of dignitaries Greek- Doxai - glorious ones. Most have interpreted this as the angels, which certainly fits the context. Peter in 2 Pet. Seems to make the same point as Jude follows his structured outline being of a later date. “ and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries. Whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a railing accusation against them before the Lord. Here we have both authors mentioning those who had no respect for those who are in a higher position even though they are fallen and will be judged.

We see even Michael the arch-angel did not condemn Satan, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.” Michael who is even greater than we are did not use insulting words or exert his authority. Satan is still a dignitary of the highest order so there was no disrespect of his office and position even though he is an enemy. He deferred the issue to God, he trusted the Lord to step in between them on this issue. If an angel of this order is careful with how he treats the enemy how much more should we be.

Vs. 8 and I0 describe people who speak evil of fallen angels because of having little understanding of who they are speaking to.

To sum up all this, we simply do not have the kind of authority or power to put demons in chains or chase them away from the cities. Those who claim to be doing this are not doing too good a job anyway. If they bind him how long does this last since his work continues? By now every demon and his cousin should have been incarcerated. Who’s the joker that keeps letting him loose? The Bible tells us the world will come increasingly evil, that perilous times will come (they have already arrived) we are not going to turn it around. This will culminate by the seals being broken and judgment poured out on a rebellious mankind. We can’t bind Satan, for he will be bound for one thousand years in the millennium by a specific angel. This does not exclude us from doing good and being light and salt in a society that is putrefying.

Yet today, we do have the authority and the strength to resist the devil's temptations and lies by submitting to God, standing in Christ, and putting on His armor. (Ephesians 6:12; James 4:7)

By being in the world and not influenced from it we are obedient to Jesus, the evil one cannot touch us. In John 17:15, Jesus prays we would be kept from the evil one. We are able to resist his temptations, because greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world. By walking in the light, we have discernment of his schemes and the evil one cannot overcome us and take us captive, that light is in the word.
 

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Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on :
 
How many times have these prophets of prosperity bound Satan?

1?

100?

1000's?

Is he bound for 1 sec?

1 minute?

1 hour?

Why does he not stay bound if they have this "authority"?

Is he slippery and keeps slipping out of the binds?

Or could it be that White Eagle and those who she and HisGrace are so adamently supporting, are usurping authority which they have not, and wresting scriptures and deceiving?

Mark 3:
23: And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24: And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25: And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26: And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27: No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28: Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

http://www.letusreason.org/Pent13.htm

We cannot Christianize the world but we can make individual people Christians. Not by binding the demons to set them free but by preaching the Gospel and making disciples.

Looking at Mk.3:27 If one is being instructed by Jesus to bind Satan first so that the Gospel will not be obstructed then he himself did not follow his own explanation and neither did his apostles. We cannot stop other people from committing their sins by binding the demons. While prayer does move the hand of God to do miraculous things we do not have the authority to do what only God himself can do. Essentially each person has to make a choice on their own. If someone does not want to be delivered we cannot force deliverance over a person or a city. Spiritual warfare is a personal resistance for each of us against our own sinful desires which the enemy will use to his advantage. He will try to annul our effectiveness and tempt us to walk contrary to the word of God.

If one were to look at the scripture without any preconceived ideas, what is found is that prayer is address to God only. In Gal. 5:19-22, much of what is blamed on demons is really man's fallen nature, expressing itself through his flesh. Although demons can entice and exaggerate our flesh indulgences we can honestly blame ourselves for most of the activity we see today.

While we see in scripture Satan is the prince of this world, John 12:31 God of this world 2 Cor. 4:4 and the prince of power of the Eph. 2:2.

We can in no way draw a conclusion of cultural demonization in which whole cities, ethnic groups, and religions are involved, and that we as Christians come to set people free by binding the strong man and his hold. While it is true that religions have a spiritual deception, there are many invented by mans imagination and that one does not have to be religious to be blind to the Gospel.

*In Pagan theology when one would win the battle over another god they received his goods and territory. To pull down the head demon over an area and they will win that property for the Lord. Gnostics believed in strongholds located over cities in the sky. This is similar to the underlying philosophy of the Spiritual Warfare movement that we take it back with force reclaiming the cities for God. In Zoroatrianism, a Persian Gnostic religion there was the concept of two major Gods …”A good god rules the spiritual world and a bad god rules the physical realm….the problem of evil is solved by blaming everything that goes wrong on the bad god (the devil); the good god is seen no more than a counter balance. One is left with the impression that the two gods each possess equal power both in quality and quantity. Everything that is wrong in the world is the fault of the bad god. And its up to the initiate or believer to make sure the good god wins” (The Agony of deceit, moody press pp.133)

In the religion of the Vikings Odin the head God did good and whenever something went wrong it was the evil one Loki. Today people think God always does good and gives them abundance and its the devil who takes away and makes them suffer or hinders prayers. The bible teaches that God does destroy as well, and will take away things if he sees fit to do so, its not always an either or situation.

Paul was confronted with a whole city given over to idolatry in Acts17, how does he deal with this situation? He did not go into warfare prayer against their main gods Zeus or Apollo nor bind their idolatry. As he went into the synagogues and market place each day it ended on Mars hill where he challenged all the philosophies of their day. He promoted scripture and reasoned to them with the teaching of Christ, specifically the resurrection something he knew they would have a hard time with. He challenged them to make a decision.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
HisGrace:

"A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly,"

Chapter and verse please!!!!!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
Peter IS NOT doing the binding

The binding and loosing TAKES PLACE IN HEAVEN (and NOT by man)

We are to WALK IN OBEDIENCE to what Christ HAS ALREADY DONE

This "I BIND YOU SATAN" is a load of pig poop


Here is the LOOSENING that took place in Heaven.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HisGrace:

Do you not have the power of the Holy Spirit within you? - hmmmmm.

---

quote:

---

Well if you BOUND the devil

WHY IS HE STILL PROWLING AROUND DEVOURING?????

You MUST have failed (along with everyone else who THOUGHT they could bind him)

Is it because YOU LACK FAITH??????????????????


Or is it rather WE CAN'T DO IT (and AREN'T commanded to do it)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:
HisGrace,

I'm curious.

Do you ever admit that you're wrong?

Or better yet, do you ever think that you're wrong?

Do you ever even contemplate for a minute that there's even the slightest chance that you might be wrong?

Caretaker and HFHS are two of the most honest, biblically sound, doctrinally solid Christians I've ever come across. And quite frankly, none of us has any business arguing with either of them unless we've seriously done our homework. You and I aren't even in their league.

Has it ever occured to you that they might have a point - or two or three? Has it ever occured to you that they just might be right?

I realize that you have to admit to yourself that you might be wrong in order to make the jump to this next one, but here goes:

Do you have any idea how many people you might be misleading with your altered version of scripture? Do you care enough to take a step back and reconsider? If not for yourself, then for others?

The teachers that you defend are wrong and they are dangerous, particularly to those who are new in their faith. It is inexcusable for you to defend them, and yet you continually do so.

Seriously HisGrace, please prayerfully reconsider your stance on this topic. Truly (honestly and heartfelt) search for the truth instead of searching for the next out-of-context scripture in an attempt to back-up your argument.

---

Yada, Yada Yada.

Read my post to Caretaker.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

You have to look at the TENSE of the word

shall have been bound

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HisGrace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:
HisGrace,

I'm curious.

Do you ever admit that you're wrong?

Or better yet, do you ever think that you're wrong?

---

I have never haughtily made any attacks on anyone with such strong words as telling them that they are manipulating or twisting the scriptures, or accused them of having a cavalier attitude, such has been said of me.

I even had the grace enough to say of HFHS

quote:

---

I agree 100% - HFHS has given us a tremendous amount of food for thought.

---

---

quote:

---

from hardcore:
Well if you BOUND the devil

WHY IS HE STILL PROWLING AROUND DEVOURING?????

You MUST have failed (along with everyone else who THOUGHT they could bind him)

Is it because YOU LACK FAITH??????????????????

Or is it rather WE CAN'T DO IT (and AREN'T commanded to do it)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you AVOIDING this question because you can't come up with a workable BIBLICAL answer??????
bind him)

Is it because YOU LACK FAITH??????????????????
Or is it rather WE CAN'T DO IT (and AREN'T commanded to do it)
Are you AVOIDING this question because you can't come up with a workable BIBLICAL answer??????

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The really sad thing is that every time a Christian trys to bind Satan, he steps out of the place of his authority in the Spirit and into the flesh, where he can then be devoured. If you are walking in the spirit, satan is of no consequince to you as you are not of the world though you are in it.

Our victory is found in remaining in the Spirit where Satan has no authority over us. Satan is bound when you do not step out of the spirit and into the flesh. If you are minding (giving attention or mind to)the things of this world or the things of your flesh, then you are not binding but loosing the devil.

The blood did not give us authority over Satan, it took us from his authority and put us not in the flesh, but in the Spirit (where God is in authority.

---

quote:

---

From HFHS - The whole mindset of WOF... bless me, bless me bless me, heal me, heal me, fill me fill me, give me a rehema word, give me a better Job, more money, a nicer car, more money, more time, more more more... like Hardcore said, as if God were a vending machine, is a walk of minding the flesh and the things of the flesh and this world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

You have to look at the TENSE of the word

shall have been bound

---

Another interesting example of how differing bible versions can change a meaning ever so slightly.


Matthew 16:19


wparr's version:
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

HisGrace's version:
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whateveryou loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

KJV:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

---

shall: a -- used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future <we shall have to be ready> <we shall see> b -- used to express simple futurity <when shall we expect you>

(KJV)shall be bound in heaven; (NIV)will be bound on earth; ??shall have been bound on earth.

And your point is hardcore? I think you are grasping at straws.
 

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Posted by HisGrace (Member # 3438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Caretaker:
Originally posted by HisGrace:

A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly, because it reminds Satan that he was defeated at the cross, and that his time on this earth is running really short.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chapter and verse please:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HisGrace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by hardcore:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wparr:
Matthew 16:19
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

You have to look at the TENSE of the word

shall have been bound

---

Another interesting example of how differing bible versions can change a meaning ever so slightly.


Matthew 16:19


wparr's version:
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

HisGrace's version:
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whateveryou loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

KJV:
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

---

shall: a -- used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future <we shall have to be ready> <we shall see> b -- used to express simple futurity <when shall we expect you>

(KJV)shall be bound in heaven; (NIV)will be bound on earth; ??shall have been bound on earth.

And your point is hardcore? I think you are grasping at straws.

---

quote:

---

John Wesley's Commentary
Under the term of binding and loosing are contained all those acts of discipline which Peter and his brethren performed as apostles: and undoubtedly what they thus performed on earth, God confirmed in heaven.

---

quote:

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John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
But Christ gave a greater power of binding and loosing, to his disciples, than these men had, and which they used to better purpose. The sense of the words is this, that Peter, and so the rest of the apostles, should be empowered with authority from him, and so directed by his Holy Spirit, that whatever they bound, that is, declared to be forbidden, and unlawful, should be so: and that whatever they loosed, that is, declared to be lawful, and free of use, should be so; and accordingly they bound some things which before were loosed, and loosed some things which before were bound; for instance, they bound, that is, prohibited, or declared unlawful, the use of circumcision, which before, and until the death of Christ, was enjoined the natural seed of Abraham; but that, and all ceremonies, being abolished by the death of Christ, they declared it to be nothing, and of no avail, yea, hurtful and pernicious; that whoever was circumcised, Christ profited him nothing, and that he was a debtor to do the whole law: they affirmed, that the believing Gentiles were not to be troubled with it; that it was a yoke not fit to be put upon their necks, which they, and their fathers, were not able to bear, (Galatians 5:1,3,6) (Acts 15:10,19) .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Inky:
John 4:1-3
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the worldHereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1.Word Faith says, John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.They say Word.
2. Word Faith says, That Jesus never claimed he was the Son of God.
3.Word Faith says,That we are the same as Jesus. That we are "little gods"
4. Word Faith says, Or I should say Kenneth Copeland says that God told him that he could of just as well took Jesus place on the Cross as Jesus that there was no difference between him and Jesus.
5. Word Faith says, When Jesus died on the Cross that wasn't what saved us. That it wasn't his blood , but it was the fact that he went to hell for 3 days and became sin.


Now not all Churches who believe in the Spiritual Gifts support Word Faith.

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Originally posted by Inky:
John 4:1-3
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the worldHereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1.Word Faith says, John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.They say Word.
2. Word Faith says, That Jesus never claimed he was the Son of God.
3.Word Faith says,That we are the same as Jesus. That we are "little gods"
4. Word Faith says, Or I should say Kenneth Copeland says that God told him that he could of just as well took Jesus place on the Cross as Jesus that there was no difference between him and Jesus.
5. Word Faith says, When Jesus died on the Cross that wasn't what saved us. That it wasn't his blood , but it was the fact that he went to hell for 3 days and became sin.


Now not all Churches who believe in the Spiritual Gifts support Word Faith.

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Sometimes it seems that many people who call Copeland a heretic are people who just memorize the Words, but have not yet applied them.

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Originally posted by redkermit:

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Sometimes it seems that many people who call Copeland a heretic are people who just memorize the Words, but have not yet applied them.

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I'm not calling Copeland a heretic, but reading some of these recent posts made me want to go to his site again & see if there was anything posted there I could read here at work. I started reading this e-book and there is much in there that doesn't sit right with me.

Quite often he refers to faith as a "force" like it's some kind of mystical thing from Star Wars. He also basically says that we can call on God for anything and ask in His name, and God will do it. Nowhere does he mention anything about whether it's God's will or not.

He implies that if you are in poverty or ill that you are not in the full knowledge of the Word of God.

He refers to "success formulas" in the Bible, as in we just need to follow some simple steps to get what we want from God.

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Walter Martin a great authority on Cults defines a Cult as :

By the term cult I mean nothing derogatory to any group so classified. A cult, as I define it, is any religious group which differs significantly in one or more respects as to belief or practice from those religious groups which are regarded as the normative expressions of religion in our total culture.

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Originally posted by redkermit:
I'm not calling Copeland a heretic, but reading some of these recent posts made me want to go to his site again & see if there was anything posted there I could read here at work. I started reading this e-book and there is much in there that doesn't sit right with me.

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5.)Originally posted by Me.
There are no scriptures supporting that Jesus went to hell. If it is not in the bible then it is not of God.

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