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Topic: Knowing more!
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi again Copper,
The reason why I thought what I thought was because of this statement of yours..........
"If I tell a natural man "ok, go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the spirit of God moved upon their heart to convict them, they would never want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
It appears to me that you were giving the impression that out of the massive amounts of people that come under the hearing of the gospel, that the Holy Ghosts function is to select only certain ones to give conviction of sin(more or less implying that only those who receive conviction will repent and turn to Christ); whereas, I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide........ either continue on the same as before or repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Copper25
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posted
Hi oneinchrist,
you said
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Copper,
I believe that there are more people who are convicted of sin.........than people who end up repenting as a result of the conviction.
In other words, I do not believe that conviction of sin(to be made aware of ones sinfulness or guilt) means automatic conversion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Did I ever say such a thing? Can you show me where I implied that conviction means automatic conversion?
I said this
quote:
that unless the grace of God, the woking of the Holy Spirit comes upon a man, he WILL NOT trust himself to Jesus to begin with.
Now I do say this, that their is a common grace that God has upon man kind. Why you say?
Genesis 6:5) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
If man were to be left purely to the imaginations of his own heart, then this world world would be a lot different I believe.
I hope I have made my veiw some what clearer
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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oneinchrist
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Hi Copper,
I believe that there are more people who are convicted of sin.........than people who end up repenting as a result of the conviction.
In other words, I do not believe that conviction of sin(to be made aware of ones sinfulness or guilt) means automatic conversion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Copper25
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Hey Micheal, haven't talked to you in a bit. Good to have you back.
The bible says (Hebrews 4:16) "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
True and I will say this, that man in his natural state WILL NOT come to God and love the purity of His truth.
The problem with man is that even if he were given the option of being saved, submitting to God and repent, or live in his own ways; man will naturally choose his own ways.
As it is written (Psalm 53:2-3) "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
again
1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If a tell a natural man, "ok go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the Spirit of God moved upon their hearts to convict them, they would NEVER want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
ezekiel 37
1) The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2) And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3) And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
This is what it is like speaking to an unconverted person. Do we know if they are going to live, be raised from the condition of being dead in their sins, and come unto Jesus in full truth? No, only God knows.
Do you see Micheal?
I am not saying that a person should just sit on the couch and wait for the Holy Spirit to hit them, but unless the Spirit moves upon them, what receiving can a person do? Can a stone heart sense the things of God? Can the carnal man treause those things that are spiritual?
Micheal, you said
quote:
A person who does not trust himself to Jesus, CANNOT be changed by grace.
But truth be told, and scripture proves it, that unless the grace of God, the woking of the Holy Spirit comes upon a man, he WILL NOT trust himself to Jesus to begin with.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Michael Harrison
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[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Can a man 'have' a good heart?
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Who can know the heart?
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
How can a 'good' man, out of the 'good' treasure of his heart, bring forth 'good' things, but by the Spirit of God, who changes it, as one believes unto righteousness? The word (Heb 4:12) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, allowing us to 'repent' from evil.
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Michael Harrison
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Grace enables us to overcome. And grace is by faith. And overcoming is a requirement.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Also:
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
And we cannot be as HE IS, (so are we in the world), if we do not accept HIS changing grace.
This is why HE says to come BOLDLY to the throne of grace,
to find help,
in the time of
need!
What need?
Well, what does grace minister to? What need have we?
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Michael Harrison
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And why do we "come boldly to the throne of grace to find help in the time of need?"
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
That is, if we have come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may be like Him here and now.
Amen!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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You see, nobody reads. They don't read what I post, and even far worse, they don't read the scriptures. That makes it thoroughly difficult to discuss anything. For when they read my posts, they already have an opinion which prevents them from considering. Yet they 'fire' back. Even worse, when they read the scriptures they already have an opinion. They have a conclusion; a formulation in mind. Therefore they do not 'read' the scriptures, nor my posts. They read at them. And once more, this is how they read the scriptures.
The problem with this is that such people 'pre' interprets scripture, and respond according to their instincts, which are based on their predeterminations. We are not called to predetermine.
But let us consider, is our relationship, 'future tense?'
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Do we "come boldly to the throne of grace," in the future, or now? And after all, do we find "help in the time of need," now, when we need it, or in the future? An honest heart can discern this. Therefore, is relationship now, or in the future? This could be a critical deciding factor, ye who digress. For if you are putting it off till the future, what you can have now, your fate may be in peril. I am only telling you what scripture says. That is not because I am judging, but because the Spirit of God cares.
So I have learned that people do not read. They predetermine. And they respond based upon their 'predetermination'.
Wyldb: you need to read 1John concerning loving the brethren. Therein, says he, is the proof whether one is a child of God. (1John 4:20) After all, consider that Jesus Himself wasn't afraid even of Judas. And according to His own words, HE didn't judge him either, though he betrayed Him.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He didn't even judge Judas. And if you were secure in your belief, you wouldn't have to defend it by calling anyone names.
I would that you were secure. Though the flesh is tempted by your provocation, the Spirit bleeds Jesus.
People seem to embrace this thing called 'salvation', this 'abstract' thing called salvation. They want salvation. They perceive that there is something in it. They need to want Jesus. It is that simple~!
Going back, like I said, our gifted ambassador, Paul (if he indeed wrote Hebrews) said (and I feel he did), "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace." That implied present tense in the hour he wrote it. It also implies present tense as one reads it. For to find help in the time of need is not 'future tense'. Else it would not matter. For then we would be glorified.
So is relationship with the Christ NOW, or future tense. If it is now, one would be wise to grasp some terribly important things.
Amen!
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Michael Harrison
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Y'all so fun! Sumone's gonna get it yet!
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Michael Harrison
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Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
How does one seek HIM? Does he climb a mountain to query a wise man? Does he take yoga classes till he reaches kharma? Or does one seek HIM by faith.
That leads to, does the hearer believe that God is active in His creation? Does the hearer believe that God is 'personally' involved in the life of the believer. For if he doesn't, he necessarily must accomplish on his own, what he believes God has asked. And since he cannot, he is without hope. So why is he preaching?
As this verse implies, one must believe that HE is personally involved. And there is that qualification that reads, "or it is impossible to please Him." What a strong indicator.
And further, that HE is a rewarder, that means in the now, as one trusts Him by faith. Else where is the 'relationship', unless it is a really truly 'loong' distance one in which one is 'guessing' about the particulars of the outcome.
Amen!
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
How can an individual "have" Christ without "doing" anything to "receive" him?
Did you 'cause' your salvation? Then what did your 'doing' accomplish, but to receive? Is your 'doing' active, or passive? If it is active, it caused your salvation.
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Michael Harrison
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1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Who believes?
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TB125
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posted
Michael,
Here you are again with your unorthodox teachings. You say, quote:
we need to accept HIS whole will
I'll ask you a couple of questions to try to understand your repeated pronouncements. Who does this "accepting" of God's will? Is it the individual's self or is Christ within the individual?
I'm still trying to understand if an individual has any role or part in his or her salvation, and if so what is the nature of that role? How can an individual "have" Christ without "doing" anything to "receive" him? I'm still confused regarding the basic process of salvation according to your perspective. Your straight brief answers to these questions will be helpful.
--------------------
Bob
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Michael Harrison
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Do you understand what I am saying? Only if we accept HIS whole will for our lives can we abide in Him and avoid transgression. Otherwise we are 'doing' our own thing, and our own thing accomplishes nothing but transgression, even if we think we are 'doing' it 'for' Him.
And doing our own thing is the same as our wanting to be the 'Master'. For we want the dominion over our lives. And faith says that Jesus knows best what we want, even more so than we do. And faith says that His plan for our lives is better than anything we could dream up. Therefore, faith accomplishes for us what we could never because we cannot design the ultimate outcome even with all of our scheming. He knows best. When we submit to that we GLORIFY Him, and His provision overcomes our sin.
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Michael Harrison
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So, the only way to avoid sinning is for our provision to be complete. For sin comes from the desire to 'have', signifying our provision is incomplete (Consider David and Bathsheba). So, for our provision to be complete, we need to accept HIS whole will, knowing He has provided. And to lust for evil things (even things that seem good in themselves) is invalidated if we accept His will for our lives. That is how we rise above sin. For then HIS sufficiency is our sustinence (Bread of Life). Where then is the sin? For it is when we 'lust' after evil things that we say that HE is not sufficient. That is when and where we transgress Him in all things.
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Michael Harrison
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So I am not knocking 'word of faith', but thinking we 'accomplish' something is tantamount to that. But it would be dishonest if we bragged that we 'accomplished' something by our faith, though we may sometimes phrase, or hear it phrased by someone, that way. In fact however, we receive the finished work of God, performed in our behalf, by our obedience of faith (knowing what HE will do). The 'works' were, after all, finished from the foundation of the world.
Therefore if HE doesn't give it, whatever it is, we can only secure it by coveteousness, which leads to actions that intend to lay hold. Therefore we would be stealing, for we transgress Him in order to have it if HE didn't give it.
The seed of sin will have been planted by our desire. Does that sound familiar? But idolatry and lusts, apart from Christ, lead us to desire a thing, and we accomplish the 'having' thereof through transgression of the Lord. These are by the lusts of the flesh, and the transgression of our Lord's will. "For the pride of life, the lust of the eyes, and the lusts of the flesh are not of the Father."
Therefore through coveteousness we would assertain to have, or aim to gain. Therefore we would sin in lusting to have, or to accomplish the goal of our desire. That is where sin comes in.
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Michael Harrison
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Maybe we can go back to:
Michael,
I agree with you in the importance of seeing the distinction between "following the leading of God" and "establishing our own standards of righteousness".
No! Let's go back farther:
and the spirit of God is leading us a certain direction, and we follow that guidance, then we are "doing what God wants us to do"(towards His plan for us)...........not what we want to do for Him.
See, "doing what God wants us to do, towards HIS plan for us," is contributing. It is not following, at least, as well as I am able to determine by the wording, contributing is the notion expressed. In other words, it is still 'doing' what we want to do for Him, but in different clothing.
What HE wants us to do is to receive. One may have to show up somewhere and maybe even 'say' something, to receive what HE is manifesting. That is doing. However it is in the spirit of receiving.
Whereas there is a notion of contributing involved when we think we 'accomplish' something because we think we obeyed. It is pretty subtle to discern. But receiving is more like being in the right place at the right time, if we will only so consider. Whereas thinking we make something happen is accomplishment, we think.
But that is where pride entereth. For if we do not 'accomplish' it (whatever), then where's the boasting rights? I didn't 'do' it. But do I boast because I 'received' it???
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Michael Harrison
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one's self, oneinchrist. I am not speaking of judging others. We are to judge ourselves to see if we are 'in' the faith.
Imaginations! These are supposed to be cast down, no? Why? They exalt themselves against truly knowing God, or perfectly, if one will endure the expression. They exalt themselves against knowing the will of God. Therefore what imaginations accomplish is 'self-deception'. But willingly! For it truly is hard to lie to one's self. Somehow though, people manage.
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Michael,
I thought I was catching on to some of the things that you were saying, but after your last two posts I am totally lost.
If it is only in someones "imagination" that they are being led by the spirit, then it is for them to discover. I do not commit myself to make those types of judgements, even though I may have a personal opinon as to whether or not someone is in the faith.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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That takes me back to a previous post where I stated that if one thinks that sanctification is a lifetime process, he has not understood what God wants him to. He still has something to discover. That is the assertion of the author of the epistles. And those who have realized, do labor to see others also do.
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Michael Harrison
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But....
It misses the point. Perhaps it would help to consider that following 'a' leading is different than following 'all' leading. And I don't mean to imply "in succession." In other words, one can follow 'a' leading back to back with another leading, and so on. But 'all' leading, is the whole understanding.
Establishing our own standards of righteousness comes from thinking we are following 'a' leading.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Israel, being 'ignorant' about how it really is with God, went about trying to establish their own. What this means is that by trying to establish their own, they 'displaced' God from being in control of their destiny. They 'rejected' God. The whole time they thought they were 'pleasing' Him. Such are we, yet we do not see it. And we will fight to blood to justify what we believe. But it is an attempt to 'establish' our own righteousness, or to justify our lack thereof.
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oneinchrist
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Michael,
I agree with you in the importance of seeing the distinction between "following the leading of God" and "establishing our own standards of righteousness".
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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But one group of Christianity feels that it 'contributes'. It is a false concept. It is the concept of Cain. It is also the concept of the carnal nature, which cannot 'please' God. And such carnal nature abides still in the believer, until such an one is truly, through faith, under the Cross.
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Michael Harrison
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Ahhhh Daniel, our doing is always passive. We are 'followers', not doers. And we cannot be followers if we are leading God. And if we are following, we are RECEIVING of God. If we are receiving, we are therefore 'accepting' the will of God, and HE is doing the doing.
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Michael Harrison
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Yes Daniel! FAITH realizes the meaning of scriptures which can be otherwise interpreted. But to help with this, here is the paramount description of reality: 1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Jesus IS MADE unto us..... That sounds like "DONE!" And what is HE made unto us? Wisdom, do you discover that to be within you? Righteousness, I will let this one slide, since I already know the concept the reader holds. SANCTIFICATION, how can HE be 'made unto us' sanctification? And if HE is 'made unto us' sanctification, how do we participate? (Faith, believing.) Therefore what one interprets to be a lifetime process of sanctifying, one would do well to consider as a lifetime process rather, of 'abiding' in the sanctification already accomplished. Therefore one is IN sanctification, or he is struggling, trying to make sense of what it means to be sanctified.
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oneinchrist
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AAAh Michael!,
You just reminded me of something I though of the other day in reference to "doing". If we are converted Christians, in the faith of Jesus, and have the spirit of God in us.............. and the spirit of God is leading us a certain direction, and we follow that guidance, then we are "doing what God wants us to do"(towards His plan for us)...........not what we want to do for Him.
Do you see the distinction?
With love in Christ, Daniel
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I noticed that Caretaker did point out some scriptures that appear to show "sanctification" as an on-going process.
Would you be willing to show some scriptures that show "sanctification" to be "instantaneous" or a "one-time experience?"
It has been my thought, Michael, that your posts describe the act of "consecration to God" and that you are using the word "sanctification" instead. In my study, I believe that "consecration" can be limited to a point in time; whereas, "sanctification" is not limited to a point in time, but rather an on-going process.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
I discovered that being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus signified ones consent to transfer ownership of their life over to the Lord.
Yes, initially we consent, Daniel. However, thereafter we resist. For what seems like a lifetime of 'sanctification' we fail to recognize what it truly meant when we gave our life to Him to be Lord over it. We frustrate HIS grace by witholding ourselves, while thinking we are surrendering by the little acts of 'doing' which we perform.
Amen!
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Michael Harrison
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And I wanted to add last night that, if you are someone who believes that sanctification is a lifetime experience, you have not 'understood' it the way HE wants one to. Therefore one is in the 'wilderness' wandering until he discovers.
Come out of the desert! Amen.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
You said: a person who does not trust himself to Jesus cannot be changed by grace.
I agree with you. In fact, I believe that "entrusting ourselves into the hands of Jesus" is what it means to "consecrate ourselves to God". When I was doing a study on "baptism in the Name of the Lord" I discovered that being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus signified ones consent to transfer ownership of their life over to the Lord. I do not think that is the way that we look at it today.......sad, but true.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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I have taken time to give it some thought and for someone to say that I come across as though I know more than anybody else, here is my answer. If someone knows something that others ‘don’t’, he may sound as though he is coming across as though he knows more than others do. In fact though, he might. Paul was one such as this. He knew something others didn’t. All he did was to try to express it. But people turned what he said into a doctrine of ‘doing’, and by so doing, missed what he was trying to say. They still do today, prolifically! It is bottomless what people conceive from his words. But do they really hear what he is saying?
A person who does not trust himself to Jesus, CANNOT be changed by grace. But there are many fakers. There are many professors, who ‘claim‘ to trust Jesus who are ready to ‘teach‘ others. Yet when the truth is spoken, they themselves cannot ‘receive’ it. Still, they say they are professors - ’the’ professors. It is worth noting however, if one depends upon himself even for the least of anything, he cannot be perfect. Why? Faith in yourself is hopeless, astonishingly so. Another way to say that is that it is ‘imperfect’ to trust yourself. What you will therefore see is your failure. That is what you will therefore reap. he doesn't mean for you to trust yourself.
His perfection, understand, is your perfection, or the relationship is tarnished. If you go to a jeweler and order a custom cut stone, then the jeweler’s perfection is your perfection. Why? He did it ‘for you’. You couldn’t do it yourself. You had to rely on HIS perfection! Your being inexperienced and incapable could only fail. But with God, if you will, you are HIS jewel. He does the work. Therefore HIS perfection is your perfection. How so? Well, since you don’t have to depend upon yourself, you don’t have to mess it up, even if you can. Therefore, HIS perfection is your perfection as, and only as you trust and walk therein. But where you doubt HIM is where you still sin. For if the stone doubts its maker, it insults the maker’s perfect ability. No higher insult can be paid.
But if you have a part, apart from faith in the finished work and working, imperfect is what you can expect. Don't look at yourself. Then your eyes are off of Him. And if it is on others, it is off of Him.That is the worst that can happen!
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