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Author
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Topic: Knowing more!
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Michael Harrison
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1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us [as we do with the Father]: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be FULL.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[Just remember that I just said you are to have fellowship with the Father as we do. So,]
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus. Just because one is saved doesn’t mean he is experiencing that changing power to the degree THAT IT IS PROVIDED! That one is in ‘darkness’ compared to where he is called to be.]
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[If we are in the light…… we have? Fellowship! And it is possible because the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Otherwise we are in that ‘darkness’ described above. This is absolute, therefore, anything beneath this is on a plane of sin.]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[Before we can come to the point of repentance, we have to confess that we have sin. Obviously we cannot repent from ‘not’ having sin. And,]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[ALL!]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
[But HE will cleans us from ALL, if we believe Him about this.]
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[And what is keeping the commandments? It is abiding in Him without sinning. No simpler way may it be said.]
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[Nuff said! But people still insist they are knowing Him. But John points out that they are not. Again, this is about the degree of fellowship, not whether one is actually saved. But in not keepething the commandments, he is not truthful about whether he is in the standing that God approves of.]
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[But he who keeps the word has this witness within him, that he ‘knows’ he is “IN’ Him. For,]
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[And here is a simple test. He that saith he is in the light, but if pressed would have to confess he hates some brother, is in darkness now. He therefore has not the relationship he is called into. For the relationship, if proper, will leave no room to hate the brother.] I mean, your first clue that you are not 'keeping' the commandments is the fact that you have aught against your brother. For you will not have aught if you are abiding in the commandments.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a believer causing him to want to repent of a committed sin.
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Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Yes, the Holy Spirit will convict. But the hearer will harden his heart. Then he will claim verses like:
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
In this he seems to himself to have justified his position. But not with God. Maybe before men.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Can you show me this whole plane idea in the bible?
You cannot show someone who will not see.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
If in your life, the world is center stage of you life, and you only go to church on Sunday, then forsake God, not aknowledging Him throughout the rest of the week, then you are not saved and you are currently lost because you deny Him with your lifestyle.
Well, that is a good nursery school interpretation. I'll give credit here.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
In fact, I said it this way in the previous post: You are supposed to commune with your Father without interruption. It is similar to what you said, but the direction it points to is relationship with the Father, and not the church. So it is well to consider that one can so-called 'live right', seven days a week, without really being in the 'ordained' relationship with the Father. (One can even go to church in this condition.) The reason is that so many 'things' which seem good of themself, and the DOING thereof, take the place of proper relationship. At such point people become blind to what is written in scripture for thinking they are 'doing' the right things. But are the things they are doing, truly bringing them closer to Christ? Moreover they are in denial about relationship. Defensive even.
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Copper25
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Hello Micheal, greets in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
you said
quote:
Sin, any species of sin, removes one from HIS presence. That means it removes one from communing. It stops one from supping (Rev 3:20). It prevents the love of the Father from issuing through the 'believer' (1John 2:15). It doesn't mean one is not saved.
15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
If in your life, the world is center stage of you life, and you only go to church on Sunday, then forsake God, not aknowledging Him throughout the rest of the week, then you are not saved and you are currently lost because you deny Him with your lifestyle.
This is a proper type of application of 1 john 2:15.
You said
quote:
He still abides in sin. Therefore what is important is that fellowship is broken. And what he has done in repenting of a particular known sin, is to remain on the same plane. He is still on a plane of sin, but has perhaps resisted the slippery slope of more gross sin, which he is able to perceive will as a matter of fact, move him further from God.
Can you show me this whole plane idea in the bible?
You said
quote:
Yet he is unable to see that he is removed from God by nature of degree, for he refuses to repent until he is 'in' God's grace. After all, only then will he see where he WAS at.
can you you show me this "removed from God by nature of degree" idea in scripture?
You said
quote:
for he refuses to repent until he is 'in' God's grace.
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a believer causing him to want to repent of a committed sin.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
ORIGINALLY STATED BY COPPER quote:
are you trying to show that if a child of God can sin once, then they are out of God's presense and can't be forgiven?
It is a strange question coming from someone who doesn't believe that one can repent all the way from sin. Because you say (and certainly oneinchrist said) that you 'have sin' and cannot be removed out of it. Therefore one is dirty, and not washed, if one truly understands scripture. Therefore to sin, when actually already in sin is just excess of riot (1 Peter 4:4). Wherefore serveth repentance then except for the purpose of toning it down a little? But is that a cure for lukewarm relationship?
Sin, any species of sin, removes one from HIS presence. That means it removes one from communing. It stops one from supping (Rev 3:20). It prevents the love of the Father from issuing through the 'believer' (1John 2:15). It doesn't mean one is not saved. It means that one is on a lower plane, where scripture says that it is unacceptable for a Christian to be. All Paul ever said was that.
The issue is not whether one 'cannot' repent. The issue being addressed by the authors of the epistles is the fallacy of believing that one cannot repent - all the way! Yet the one in particular feels if he sins something kindof obvious, he can repent. He can, but reality is that he 'abides still, in' sin, and the one is fooling himself when he thinks he is repenting from sin if all he does is to turn from something in particular which comes to his attention.
He still abides in sin. Therefore what is important is that fellowship is broken. And what he has done in repenting of a particular known sin, is to remain on the same plane. He is still on a plane of sin, but has perhaps resisted the slippery slope of more gross sin, which he is able to perceive will as a matter of fact, move him further from God. Yet he is unable to see that he is removed from God by nature of degree, for he refuses to repent until he is 'in' God's grace. After all, only then will he see where he WAS at.
It is kindof a situation wherein one thinks he is in good with God, but in reality he is full of compromise. Yet he doesn't see it. It is like if one were to look at a scale from one to ten, one being saved, and ten being in communion with Christ, he would find, to his surprise that he was at a three, or four. For 'the sin' (general) bumps him down five or six notches. And he cannot practice the presence of God (Brother Lawrence, I think) and practice the general sin at the same time.
The point is, people are complacent where they are and do the wrong things to make up for it.
This is why scripture says, "whatsoever doth make manifest is light." (Eph 5:13) That is why scripture says:
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
If you are invited to go swimming and you get your ankles wet, or your knees, while others are in over their heads having fun in deep water, you are there, but you are not sharing with them. You are distant. You are 'preserving' yourself for fear of committing, or abandoning youself to have fun with the others.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
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Copper25
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Greets in the name of the Lord Jesus
oneinchrist, ok, I looked over my post, I am sorry for asking a series of questions instead of making it simpler.
Nevertheless ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Let us boil this down to what this theology all breaks down to. Let us find and venture toward the heart of the truth my friend.
You said
quote:
I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit), and that He makes man responsible for his own repentance.
I say this, everyman on Great white throne judgment day who did not come to the Lord, will be held accountable. For as it is written, (Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
but on regard to man by himself coming to repentance? No, I am sorry my friend. You and I would both agree that repentance in itself is more than just a person saying the words, "yes I believe and now I want to run toward Jesus"
Why? A change must take place, a regenerating working of the Holy Spirit.
oneinchrist, something to consider of what I said earlier,
quote:
Now don't get me wrong, I will urge a person to run to Christ, but why do you think that people may have said that they have been "saved" (sarcastic tone) 3 times? Then in each of those times, within a matter of given time they go right back to being like the world?
You don't have to answer the above question if you don't want to but I just put it here for a concept to consider for what I am about to say.
The heart in its figurative meaning represents the core of a person, that manifest in their personality, behavior, mentality, and things of the such.
Look at strongs
H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect.
Ok, this is still ( ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif) ) going to be more than a one part question. Just these two items I want you to answer if you find time. Please and thank you.
A man can say yes with his lips all he wants, but can the man make his own heart say yes?
or
Does there have to be a working of God to shift that person's will, even as to change the very nature of their mentality and heart's desires?
I leave you with this verse that is at the bottom of my some of my recent post
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Now think, brother, think!
A heart of stone vs. a heart of flesh.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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oneinchrist
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Hi Copper,
I am not quite sure the connection you are making between "conviction of sin" and those 1John passages. I understand that not all who come under the hearing of Gods word choose to accept it(concerning our sin) as true and reliable. God does not force any man to believe it.
In reference to "wicked mans heart" and wanting to accept and follow God...........
I believe that the Word of God has the "power" to reach deep into the soul of man, cutting between the soul and spirit. If man is still not convinced that God really loves them, then I believe it highly unlikely they will ever choose to accept and follow Him.
Sorry, I was in a hurry to work this morning. Gotta go. Keep in touch, my friend.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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Hi, MH, hope today finds you in excellent spirit. You wrote quote:
You would think that somewhere in God's pasture that there was one with an honest heart towards God.
Do you mean, "in addition to yourself" or do you not even include yourself in that procession?
I mean, I do think that there are a number of Christians who believe that God meant what He said when God said that "He would guide our steps once we were saved".
I think that just as "salvation", trusting that God "is in fact going to guide my steps after salvatin, just as He said", this latter is also only acquired BY FAITH that God meant it when He said that He would guide our steps after we were saved.
That is, how did I acquire "salvation"? I acquired it when I believed that God meant if when He wrote in the Bible that "Jesus was the Lord from heaven" and that "Jesus had died in my place", and instantly, by having FAITH that God is not a Liar and that God "spoke the truth when God said that by believing in those words I would receive eternal life, and so I HAD FAITH for salvation.
But the "guidance of our steps by the Holy Spirit" is also likewise acquired by FAITH that God meant when He said that God would "guide our steps after we are saved".
So it is NOT a matter of "doing", as MH has also said, but it is a matter of "trusting that, now that I am saved, God MUST be guiding my steps now", and as a result, BY FAITH, I STOP DOING, I stop MY OWN THINKING about what I should do at any given moment, but I now TRUST that "whatever comes up in my mind and heart, that it MUST be from God because God PROMISED that He would guide me after I was saved".
So it is not DOING, but TRUSTING that God is "really doing it", in exactly the same way that I am TRUSTING for "salvation, because GOD SAID SO.
So in that regard, the title of this Topic, instead of "Knowing more", could have been "Trusting more". Although, "trusting more" is acquired by "knowing more".
love, Eden
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Copper25
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Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
I analyzed what you said (please forgive me for length of my response)
You may think I am a pain for doing this....
quote:
When speaking of true repentance, I believe that true repentance can manifest without sobbing tears or lots of outward emotion.
Some answers as to why some are more emotional than others..........
--how we are raised(with the exercise of the conscience or the lack thereof)
--women tend to express more emotion than men
--carrying a heavy burden of guilt/shame
I agree, there are cases in the book of Acts where people don't just burst into tears.
My example in general was to show the difference of one brought to repentance and the other.. not. The crying thing, does not happen every single time
quote:
I currently do not believe that "conviction of sin" causes repentance. That is a popular belief of those who hold to Calvinist theology.
I say this, someone can acknowledge their sin and know they have it, but not run to the Lord. I believe something critical is that one actual runs toward Christ, realizing their need of course, not just say, "well I sin". Scripture supports this clearly.
2 Corinthians 7:10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
You said
quote:
I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit)
I got one crictal question for you though
Look, oneinchrist at this scripture and just tell me something, Then how would you, according to you belief on this matter ever explain these verses?
8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
or
9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Remember oneinchrist, the function of book of 1 john, you are ether one or the other, but you can not be both.
quote:
I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit), and that He makes man responsible for his own repentance.
oneinchrist, please I urge you to look and meditate upon these verses and look at what you put, PLEASE! Then think about this question, would a wicked man truly want to accept and follow after a righteous God?
Genesis 6:5) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Jeremiah 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Think oneinchrist, after you meditate about this, what has changed in 1000's of years about the natural condition of man's heart! look at this as well, PLEASE! Jesus himself said this!
Mark 7
21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Answer after meditating upon these verse, this question, why do you think that many people who claim that they "accepted Jesus, truly as the head of their life", live completely carnal and deny Him with their lifestyle, the way they live, but genuinely think they are saved? Brother can you hear me?!
Now don't get me wrong, I will urge a person to run to Christ, but why do you think that people may have said that they have been "saved" (sarcastic tone) 3 times? Then in each of those times, within a matter of given time they go right back to being like the world?
After all, you said "that He makes man responsible for his own repentance."
quote:
The differences in theology, I believe, can have very different spiritual implications(even in our witnessing).
interesting ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
If I believed that God causes repentance, then I question why would I even need to understand what repentance is? But if I believe that God gives us good reasons to repent, then I need to understand what repentance means (the type of response God is looking for).
I truly ask you this. Truly a man can hear the full gospel (with repentance of course), but if there be no working wrought inside of him by God, then what is going to happen?
oneinchrist, there is a HUGE reason why it takes more than 5 minutes of working with someone conveying truth unto them. There is a reason why biblical pastors may spend hours, even nights working with someone to make sure that the working of Almighty God was been wrought in that person's heart.
quote:
I hope you understand me. I am not here to convert your way of thinking.......just to let you know why I believe what I believe on this subject.
I am sorry for being so thorough, but consider, and I mean truly consider what I said.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
are you trying to show that if a child of God can sin once, then they are out of God's presense and can't be forgiven?
if so....
then OK micheal, hear is a question for you,
Explain Hebrews 10:26 after I give you this verse.
1 john 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Michael Harrison
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Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
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Michael Harrison
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Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Beautiful suggestion coppor.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
[13] Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
The difference here wildb is that they could tell that they had been with Jesus. They didn't sound ignernt anymore.
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Copper,
I would like to begin by saying that I am not speaking as an authority on the scriptures. I will tell you what I believe based on how I perceive scripture and the experience that I have going about witnessing.
When speaking of true repentance, I believe that true repentance can manifest without sobbing tears or lots of outward emotion. There are individuals who acknowledge thier sin and assume full responsibility for their sin.......but do not show much outward expression.
Some answers as to why some are more emotional than others..........
--how we are raised(with the exercise of the conscience or the lack thereof)
--women tend to express more emotion than men
--carrying a heavy burden of guilt/shame
Now my opinion on "conviction of sin" in relation to "repentance"..........
I currently do not believe that "conviction of sin" causes repentance. That is a popular belief of those who hold to Calvinist theology. I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit), and that He makes man responsible for his own repentance. The differences in theology, I believe, can have very different spiritual implications(even in our witnessing). If I believed that God causes repentance, then I question why would I even need to understand what repentance is? But if I believe that God gives us good reasons to repent, then I need to understand what repentance means (the type of response God is looking for).
I hope you understand me. I am not here to convert your way of thinking.......just to let you know why I believe what I believe on this subject.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Copper25
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oneinchrist, I think I know now what you are talking about, I know some who is in this type of case.
OK, a person hear a biblical sermon. Good preaching. Now a person goes, "I need to change, BUT they are not actually motivated to change. They don't take initiative.
The thing is though about this,
Lets say you got two people
person A
person B
both ear biblical preaching
Person A burst into tears, throwing himself at the alter crying, "Lord save me, O I am a wretched man", and the other just sits in his pew and says cailmly, in an unconcerned manner, "I am a sinner"
oneinchrist, tell me something, in all honesty, look at the difference in person B and A. Why do you think person A was broken in tears and the other not even concerned?
When I speak of the Holy Spirit causing conviction, I was not refferring to a person just acknowledging that he is a sinner. You can go ask the devil if he is a sinner and he would say yes. I mean a genuine feeling of remorse that comes from the working of the Holy Spirit, that makes a person want to run to God.
oneinchrist, plainly put true repentance happens because a change has birthed in one's heart by the working of the Holy Spirit. When this truly happen's a person will not turn away and just say no.
2 Corinthians 7:10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
I speak of godly sorrow, I think you make reference to worldly sorrow. Where someone has no real drive to seek God, or where that drive to pursue God quickly slips away.
You say these two things
quote:
1. Do you think that anyone who is not elected by God will ever come to the pure unadulterated truth?
ANSWER: No, but what I will say is that I disagree with your apparent view on the manner in which God elects(exercises His sovereignty)
I believe I am entitled to my own opinion on this difficult subject.
and
quote:
3. Can a person come to true repentance apart from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit?
ANSWER: No,
So my second question is this, seeing that you made these two answers, would it surprise you that the Holy Spirit, who is God, selects those to be convicted unto repentance?
The scripture plainly says (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Third, how would you describe the manner in which God elects(exercises His sovereignty)? because He has already chosen us before the foundation of the world (ref. Ephesians 1:4)
I think the question above is a major one to discuss. (this can be a deep topic rich in deepness.)
I am trying to see where you come from on your point of veiw.
oneinchrist, you got to admit something that I think we can both agree on, God is not just sitting in heaven bobbing for apples, fishing for humans aimlessly.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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oneinchrist
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Hi Copper,
In reference to: a person being convicted by the Holy Spirit and then saying no.
First of all, being convicted means to be made aware of sinfullness or guilt. So, let me tell you that I,me,myself am a person who had said "no" to God for several years......... until 1994 when God sent another preacher my way to sting my conscience once again with the gospel message. At that point of time in my life, I finally came to a solemn admittance that my life had been an insult to the spirit of grace and that I needed to make a decision with regards to the direction I was going to go.
Do I believe that I could have continued to say "no" to God? Absolutely.......but I didnt and I am thankful to God for being patient with me and sending yet another disciple of His my way.......this time it was a disciple that did not want to give up easy. Praise God!
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Coppor, why art thou so stubborn?
I know thy works!
Whose works? Is Christ talking to a sinner? Is HE speaking to those who do not know Him? After all, one is not saved by works. Therefore it necessarily implies that since works are a 'fruit' of relationship, and HE is speaking to them about their works, they are not where they should be in their relationship. How much more simply need it be explained? For sinners who are not saved do not produce works. At least, they are meaningless in the economy of God. So why would HE talk to them? Much less threaten them?
The letter is to the chuch of Laodicea, that is true
You said
quote:
Besides, HE wouldn't tell someone that is unsaved, that HE will spew them out of HIS mouth, since they were never in!!!
Are you sure about that? Look at matthew 23 and see what Jesus says to those that are not in Him. I think you will get the idea very quickly.
Do you think that Isreal in the OT was having any sort of fellowship with God when they were worshipping idols?
Amos 3:3) Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Micheal, now this part is very important,
17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve , that thou mayest see.
Micheal, what did Christ mean by these four things?
And wow, people can't spell COPPER
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
In like manner people today claim they have Paul, Peter and John. If ye did, ye would do the works of Paul, Peter and John.
Get the degree! It matters!
Acts.4
[13] Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
In like manner people today claim they have Paul, Peter and John. If ye did, ye would do the works of Paul, Peter and John.
Get the degree! It matters!
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WildB
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Bible, King James Version
Phil.1
[15] Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
[16] The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
[17] But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
[18] What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
But I say some log on to BBS boards to confuse and destroy and try to kill the truth.
To me they are but, a silly.
Tit.3
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
2Tim.2
[17] And their word will eat as doth a canker:
MH you are not a supper duper saint.
Your post are very WEAK as it matters to the elect.
Repent.
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That is all.....
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Michael Harrison
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You would think that somewhere in God's pasture that there was one with an honest heart towards God.
Degree of relationship is real!
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Michael Harrison
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15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Coppor, why art thou so stubborn?
I know thy works!
Whose works? Is Christ talking to a sinner? Is HE speaking to those who do not know Him? After all, one is not saved by works. Therefore it necessarily implies that since works are a 'fruit' of relationship, and HE is speaking to them about their works, they are not where they should be in their relationship. How much more simply need it be explained? For sinners who are not saved do not produce works. At least, they are meaningless in the economy of God. So why would HE talk to them? Much less threaten them?
Besides, HE wouldn't tell someone that is unsaved that HE will spew him out of HIS mouth, since he was never in!!! He wouldn't even be speaking to him.
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Copper25
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Let us examine the text shall we
Revelation 3
15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
The lukewarm people get rejected by Christ because they were not even His. Remember, 1 rule that is true at all times Micheal, the scripture does not contradict itself.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
So, a matter of degree is indicated here. Either one is abiding in Christ, and bringing forth fruit to perfection, or he is dabbling in dirt, saved, but not sanctified.
And sanctified means set apart for His enjoyment, or use. And what sets one apart, particular faith, or dabbling in dirt? So we can see that a believer has a choice. And what do many believers choose?
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Michael Harrison
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You want to go throuh the verses of 1 John one by one, coppor? He is speaking about Christians, and the condition of their relationship If this were not so, Christ would not have needed to say in Revelations, "Be hot or cold, but not lukewarm." That indicates a condition of relationship.
You want to go throuh the verses of 1 John one by one, coppor?
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Michael Harrison
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Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
You see, they BRING FORTH fruit. That is the indication that they are saved. But thereafter it is qualified: They who settle for less than the whole truth, bring forth "no fruit to perfection." That is different than bringing forth 'no' fruit.
So, a matter of degree is indicated here. Either one is abiding in Christ, and bringing forth fruit to perfection, or he is dabbling in dirt, saved, but not sanctified.
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
You are ether born again, regenerated, in Jesus Christ, bearing fruit, and saved
I am going to say this very simply:
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Which of these are saved? Both!!! They who keep the word, with patience bring forth fruit to perfection. They who are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of THIS life, bring forth NO fruit to perfection. But are they saved? Dogone right! And do you want further indication that this is properly interpreted?
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Does the fact that the "Love of the Father is not in him mean he is not saved?" No! It means that he has CHOKED the word by caring for the world.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And to whom is he saying this, to a Christian who is reading, or to a sinner who is unsaved? After all, the epistles were delivered to the Churches!
Micheal, one thing you have to realize about all the test in 1 john, If you honestly go through them prayerfully and you fail any of them you are not saved at all! Mike, do you at least understand this?
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Let's read scripture the way you read scripture:
"Whom the Son sets free, is in 'bondage' INDEED. But that's ok!
![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) No circus avatar needed.
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Copper25
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oneinchrist, you said
quote:
The very verse that you provide is the very reason why I would agree with you when you say...........we should examine our own hearts to see whether we are in the faith.
Notice something, oneinchrist, now wether a person does this or not is a up to them, but since when can any person not go to 1 john, prayerfully look at the test, and see if they are really in the faith?
An unregenerated man claiming to be christian can try himself against the word of God
Now I should have asked for this a long time ago, but do you have scriptural proof of your claim of a person being convicted by the Holy Spirit, but then saying no? You after all did say that a person can say yes or no.
quote:
I am confident that you would agree with me that it is the presence of the spirit in our lives(not our theological beliefs on "election") that will give us the assurance that we are in Gods will, in Christ.
true
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
You are ether born again, regenerated, in Jesus Christ, bearing fruit, and saved
I am going to say this very simply:
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Which of these are saved? Both!!! They who keep the word, with patience bring forth fruit to perfection. They who are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of THIS life, bring forth NO fruit to perfection. But are they saved? Dogone right! And do you want further indication that this is properly interpreted?
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Does the fact that the "Love of the Father is not in him mean he is not saved?" No! It means that he has CHOKED the word by caring for the world.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And to whom is he saying this, to a Christian who is reading, or to a sinner who is unsaved? After all, the epistles were delivered to the Churches!
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Michael Harrison
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Let's read scripture the way you read scripture:
"Whom the Son sets free, is in 'bondage' INDEED. But that's ok!
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Copper25
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I am going to say this with real simplicity.
You are ether born again, regenerated, in Jesus Christ, bearing fruit, and saved
or
You are not born again, unregenerated, not in Jesus, and barren, and not saved
it is one or the other, there is simply no inbetween
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Michael Harrison
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Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It is in the wording. Why would Paul say this verse this way? The righteousness of the law
is fulfilled (do we need a dictionary?)
in us.
But in whom?
In those who 'walk' not in the flesh.
And what is walking in the flesh. Is it speaking of being unsaved? Nay! It is speaking of the sinning Christian. Paul is speaking of the hard hearted Christian, the one who takes for granted the gift of God, and does not obey the faith of receiving. And that is the gift of victory, and the law of life.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yet though HE GiVETH us the victory, we still stonewall Him.
Selah!
This verse does not say that HE giveth us DEFEAT, at the hand of sin, yet HE still considers us victorious.
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Michael Harrison
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This country is going to be judged. It is going to be razed to the ground. No man will survive. Why cometh this judgment? It is because all men (I am speaking of Christians here) harden their hearts. They will not see.
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Michael Harrison
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Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
This verse implies that the Spirit of life makes one free from the law of sin and death. Free! Free from! What? Sin. Therefore, if you are free from sin (and consequently death) you cannot participate in a sordid thought, or action and insist this verse to be true. If you are free, you are not bound to commit such.
"For whom the Son sets free, is free indeed."
Does that mean that he is 'condemned' to commit such, but Christ has somehow shooed him into a corner so the Father cannot see it? Or does 'free' mean free from committing?
If you read Paul, objectivly, if you have an honest heart, you will see that HE offers freedom from committing.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
If you are not in Christ, then you are not saved. It is that simple
romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There is
no condemnation
But there is a qualification:
To those who walk not after the flesh.
This implies "the old man."
So we can deduce that:
There is condemnation
to those who walk after the flesh, and not after the Spirit. In other words, they who walk after the old nature.
Have you not read your bible coppor? As I stated in an earlier post, people do not 'read', neither the content of my posts, and consider it, nor the Bible. For they already have a 'formulation'. And this formulation prevents them from seeing.
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Michael Harrison
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Not my explainations, but your understanding contradicts scripture.
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Michael Harrison
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Colossians 3:9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Romans 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
I’m sorry you think that. Do you know what presumption is? When Paul says “seeing that ye have put off the old man,” do you presume this to mean you? Or is it true of the one Paul is speaking of? For, after all copper, you agree that these verses are true of you as a born again, baptized believer, yet you “justify” gross error as a matter of course for the believer. Well, did you read the part about “with his deeds.” For one's old deeds are fully capable of being put off. You can't have it both ways.
Then in the next verse, “that the body of sin might be destroyed, that [b] henceforth we should not serve sin. Again, you justify sin on the one hand, then turn around and quote verses like these as though you are above it. These verses are not playing around. They mean what they say.
quote:
God did not say, I will put two hearts in you, so that they can duke it out.
God did not say, I will put a partial heart of flesh in you.
You have an old nature. Unless, through faith, you overcome the old nature, it reigns over you. Therefore the verses you quoted above are ineffective. They cannot be true while your old nature is ruling over you. You have not factually “put off the old man with his deeds,” as long as you can justify him. The two possibilities are incompatible.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Copper,
The very verse that you provide is the very reason why I would agree with you when you say...........we should examine our own hearts to see whether we are in the faith. While we may not see eye to eye on how God exercises His sovereignty in divine election, I am confident that you would agree with me that it is the presence of the spirit in our lives(not our theological beliefs on "election") that will give us the assurance that we are in Gods will, in Christ.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Copper25
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Micheal, thank you for responding
You said
quote:
But, just as you argue that one does not automatically repent and follow, so also by the same logic, the 'old man' is not necessarily under the Cross just because he is a regenerated believer.
what I was reffering to was that a nature man on his own, will not come to true repentance. He will not just say one day, ok I am repented, now let myself follow after God in purity and truth.
You logic on the second part is off if you compare it to what I just said
Get it?
you said
quote:
Paul, in writing to Christians, about Christian life, was referring to the fact that the believer is not automatically abiding in Christ just because he is saved.
I am sorry but you are wrong
In pauls writtings, notice
Example
Romans 8:10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Paul is clearly mean along these lines, If this is true about you, then you are Christ'. If it is not true about you, than you are not Christ' and not saved.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you , he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
John 3:36)He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
If you are not in Christ, then you are not saved. It is that simple
romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You said
quote:
The old man is not dead just because you are saved.
I am sorry but you are wrong
Colossians 3:9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Romans 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
You said
quote:
Just because one is a believer doesn't mean that the heart of stone has been made fleshy.
Not biblical
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
God did not say, I will put two hearts in you, so that they can duke it out.
God did not say, I will put a partial heart of flesh in you.
No, He said, "I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Micheal, make sure in your explanations, you don't contradict scripture.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Copper25
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oneinchist, thank you for answering,
You said that
quote:
I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide
I got one verse that comes to mind!
1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The problem with your theory is that a natural man will naturally run from a righteous God. So scriptural speaking, if what you believe is true, no one would ever, and I mean ever come to true repentance! Think about the heart of man and how wicked it is!
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Michael Harrison
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I am saying, just to recap, that just because one is saved, even Spiritually baptized, doesn't mean one abides in Christ, or walks in the Spirit.
Paul said "I die daily." He did not mean that he was 'dying off, little by little,' daily. He meant that he 'stayed dead' daily. He was implying that to be 'under the Cross' he had to be under the Cross. Else the old nature would RULE over him, rather than the Spirit of God.
And I am not speaking of uncertainties here. This is gospel.
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Michael Harrison
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honeryinchrist, Cain had an opinion. God rejected it!
Love, bro Mike!
Just havin fun with ya!
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Michael Harrison
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Therefore 'sin' issues from the uncrucified individual, not the crucified one. And to further emphasize my point copper, it can be stated this way. Just because one is a believer doesn't mean that the heart of stone has been made fleshy. The work isn't finished just when one is saved. In other words, he hasn't 'gone all the way,' yet.
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Michael Harrison
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Let me establish my position a little more clearly for you, if I may, copper. The scriptures you have referenced do apply as to 'looking back' from the position of being saved, upon those who are not. Therefore when the passage refers to the 'natural' man, it references the unregenerate sinner. But Paul was not writing about the unregenerate sinner. He wrote to Christians, about being Christians.
So, with that as a reference, some time ago I learned to 're' apply the scriptures to myself. For they do. And from there I was able to see that when Paul speaks of the natural man, he was referencing 'who we were' before Christ, and who we still are if.....
And the reason that is important is because there is in the 'regenerated' soul the potential for TWO NATURES - either, or! One is the old man and one is the new. But, just as you argue that one does not automatically repent and follow, so also by the same logic, the 'old man' is not necessarily under the Cross just because he is a regenerated believer.
And he lives by the lusts of the flesh. He literally exists thereby because the lusts are contrary to the Spirit. Therefore he refuses, through unbelief, submission to the very 'work' of the Cross, WHICH IS OUR OBEDIENCE! In other words, the lusts of the flesh effects one literally to be ALIVE to self, rather alive unto God (though he is regenerate). And the Cross, if, and only if one understands its working, makes one alive to God. If one does not understand its work, one is not alive to God experientially. (It does not mean he is not saved.)
So any reference to the 'old man', or the 'natural' man, is, by Paul, to illustrate where one who is a believer is not 'walking in the Spirit'.
I appreciate your honesty. I know where you are coming from. I am not a stranger to Christ, or anything you have said.
So we see that while the scriptures apply to the unconverted person, Paul, in writing to Christians, about Christian life, was referring to the fact that the believer is not automatically abiding in Christ just because he is saved. To use an analogy, it takes two to tango. And every speech I make points towards discovering what it means to abide. Whereas the average believer is complacent in understanding this, and will not shed the old man, preferring instead to cling to the lustful old nature, and justify it as though it cannot be under the Cross. In other words, he makes excuses. Tell it to Christ! I don't think He'll believe you.
So, that is the basis for every dissertation which I make. The old man is not dead just because you are saved. He is only dead by faith as one practices faith.
So when I speak about 'trusting one's self to Jesus', I am not speaking about the unregenerate. For Christ says that no man cometh to Him except the Spirit draw him. Who I am talking about is that regenerated believer who has no excuse, but keeps making one.
quote:
Originally posted by Copper25:
Hey Micheal, haven't talked to you in a bit. Good to have you back.
The bible says (Hebrews 4:16) "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
True and I will say this, that man in his natural state WILL NOT come to God and love the purity of His truth.
The problem with man is that even if he were given the option of being saved, submitting to God and repent, or live in his own ways; man will naturally choose his own ways.
As it is written (Psalm 53:2-3) "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
again
1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If a tell a natural man, "ok go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the Spirit of God moved upon their hearts to convict them, they would NEVER want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
ezekiel 37
1) The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2) And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3) And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
This is what it is like speaking to an unconverted person. Do we know if they are going to live, be raised from the condition of being dead in their sins, and come unto Jesus in full truth? No, only God knows.
Do you see Micheal?
I am not saying that a person should just sit on the couch and wait for the Holy Spirit to hit them, but unless the Spirit moves upon them, what receiving can a person do? Can a stone heart sense the things of God? Can the carnal man treause those things that are spiritual?
Micheal, you said
quote:
A person who does not trust himself to Jesus, CANNOT be changed by grace.
But truth be told, and scripture proves it, that unless the grace of God, the woking of the Holy Spirit comes upon a man, he WILL NOT trust himself to Jesus to begin with.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Copper,
I believe you had 5 questions for me. Here we go.
1. Do you think that anyone who is not elected by God will ever come to the pure unadulterated truth?
ANSWER: No, but what I will say is that I disagree with your apparent view on the manner in which God elects(exercises His sovereignty)
I believe I am entitled to my own opinion on this difficult subject.
2. Do you think that a heart of stone is going to be sensitive to the working of Gods grace and the conviction of the Holy Spirit naturally?
ANSWER: No, but at the same time I believe it is an error to assume that Gods dealings with man over the last 6000+ yrs. has not had any effect on our God-given conscience. We even have laws based on the commandments of God.
I believe that the verse that you use about "a heart of stone" is primarily in reference to God establishing a New Covenant with His people, not a reference to describing His method of election.
3. Can a person come to true repentance apart from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit?
ANSWER: No, that is like saying.... Can a person come to true repentance without hearing the word of God (good news of the gospel)?
4. Is God looking down from heaven saying, "Man, I hope he comes to me because I have plans for this man?"
ANSWER:No, God desires that we come to Him and He knows if we will. I would like to note that I do believe that there is a "general call" to mankind that is distinct from the "official call" of a chosen leader.
5. Do you see this argument as one that could happen?(see your above post)
ANSWER: No, and neither do I think that when we die the Lord is going to ask us why He should let us in.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Copper25
Advanced Member
Member # 7464
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Copper,
The reason why I thought what I thought was because of this statement of yours..........
"If I tell a natural man "ok, go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the spirit of God moved upon their heart to convict them, they would never want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
It appears to me that you were giving the impression that out of the massive amounts of people that come under the hearing of the gospel, that the Holy Ghosts function is to select only certain ones to give conviction of sin(more or less implying that only those who receive conviction will repent and turn to Christ); whereas, I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide........ either continue on the same as before or repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
With love in Christ, Daniel
quote:
It appears to me that you were giving the impression that out of the massive amounts of people that come under the hearing of the gospel, that the Holy Ghosts function is to select only certain ones to give conviction of sin
oneinchrist, brother, have ye not read Acts 2:47, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
I must ask you something, oneinchrist, do you thing that anyone who is not elected by God will ever come to the pure Unadulterated truth?
Let us now, oneinchrist look at the heart of the unconverted man shall we.
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Now let me ask you something, do you think that a heart of stone is going to be sensitive to the working of God's grace and conviction of the Holy Spirit naturally?
Think about it my freind, there is a reason why a unconverted man can sit under some of the most powerful preaching, and sit there cold as a stone, unaffected at all.
While in the same audience, a godly converted man may be wailing in tears, crying out to God.
Think about it my friend, heart of stone verses heart of flesh. One sensitive to conviction and the other naturally not.
quote:
(more or less implying that only those who receive conviction will repent and turn to Christ)
oneinchrist, I am suprised that you would say this. The first step is conviction. This is why many never come to Jesus, because there is no conviction upon their heart.
I ask you now a third question, can a person come to true repentance apart from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit?
quote:
whereas, I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide........ either continue on the same as before or repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
oneinchrist, here is the problem.
I am going to give a scenario.
A guy comes into church, hears the word of God (biblical preaching) and according to your theory, they feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon their heart. Now you say it is up to this man to decide whether to "repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification", or not. Is God just looking down from heaven saying, man I hope he comes to me because I have plans for this man. Is God just sitting on the throne winging it that this man submits to his plans?
oneinchrist, be careful in the way you decribe this because you know what it sounds like.... that it is based more off of a man's DECISION and not God's election, therefore, the human would have control and not God.
This is what it sounds like,
Q) How did you get saved sir, why did this all start?
He responds, well the because I chose God and allowed Him to work in me.
You make it sound like, and I mean this in the nicest way, that God can't do anything unless a human, a weak human says yes.
tell me this oneinchrist
question 4 Do you see this argument as one that could happen?
God: I choose you in my election
man: no
God: come on, I am convicting your heart, please
man: I said no
God: The more you keep saying no, the sadder I get
man: I will say no forever
God: Aw, thats it, I give up
please answer my questions, thank you
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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