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Author
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Topic: Knowing more!
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Well thank you for repeating it. It bears repeating.
I'll probably repeat it again myself.
Oh Im shur you will continue to cleverly insult others on the board.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
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posted
Well thank you for repeating it. It bears repeating.
I'll probably repeat it again myself.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
He is the only way, that is why I cannot deny Him, lest I be stupid, like, well, some!
Oh! I don't have to 'win' bwilder. He already has. And if our God doesn't heal and deliver, people might as well do buddah. Oh, and buddah doesn't attract much controversy. Probably that is because only the truth threatens, and he doesn't have it. But many think that the absense of controversy is a mark of assuredness. Therefore they gravitate to the 'easy' lifestyle. Yet, with buddah each has to 'work' for his salvation. Strangely however, many Christians work against theirs.
I see you edited to add more insults.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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posted
You see insults. I see someone who doesn't want to know the truth.
The true insult is to reject the grace of God, or to misappropiate it, such as in insisting that it pardons sin, without repentance.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
He is the only way, that is why I cannot deny Him, lest I be stupid, like, well, some!
Oh! I don't have to 'win' bwilder. He already has.
Then why do you keep posting insults?
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
He is the only way, that is why I cannot deny Him, lest I be stupid, like, well, some!
Oh! I don't have to 'win' bwilder. He already has. And if our God doesn't heal and deliver, people might as well do buddah. Oh, and buddah doesn't attract much controversy. Probably that is because only the truth threatens, and he doesn't have it. But many think that the absense of controversy is a mark of assuredness. Therefore they gravitate to the 'easy' lifestyle. Yet, with buddah each has to 'work' for his salvation. Strangely however, many Christians work against theirs.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Repent of what bwilder, disagreeing with you? Shall I deny God to agree with you?
More tripe. Here I thought JESUS said he is the only way?
Go figure.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Repent of what bwilder, disagreeing with you? Shall I deny God to agree with you?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Not necessarily 'begging' your pardon bwilder, but the someone said some rude things about the sites that I posted for the 'interested'. Do you know who they are? They are they who FEAR God.
So my comment referenced someone who spoke of these sites, and not of my interpretations, which are of Christ our Lord.
More spin, spin, spin, spin and finally you think you will win. Not!
Repent.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Not necessarily 'begging' your pardon bwilder, but the someone said some rude things about the sites that I posted for the 'interested'. Do you know who they are? These are they who FEAR God.
So my comment referenced someone who spoke of these sites, and not of my interpretations, which are of Christ our Lord.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I've never heard anyone fault Campus Crusade for Christ before. Rarely have I heard Christians fault Billy Graham before the ability to post on the internet. Who are these people who are not afraid to "speak evil to dignitaries?" Well we have our warning about them:
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
This is a reference to Christians, not heathen.
Oh it was your interpretations that you attached to the post that people are speaking against.
Stop spinning your tails.
And one more thing Stop threading people on this board with your misuses of text.
It dosent work here.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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posted
I've never heard anyone fault Campus Crusade for Christ before. Rarely have I heard Christians fault Billy Graham before the ability to post on the internet. Who are these people who are not afraid to "speak evil to dignitaries?" Well we have our warning about them:
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
This is a reference to Christians, not heathen.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Thank God for America where we are free to be ourselves.
love, Eden
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
WildB wrote about Eden quote:
What Keeper said to you was "IF" you were going to slam a post shouldn't you read it in total.
In most posts there are some questionable statements that are not hard to find, and I comment on those. It does not require that I read the whole post. If it is not too long, I read the whole post and pick out the part that I disagree with (if there is one), and I comment on that. If the post is real long, I may just look for something that seems incorrect to me and comment on that.
That's what I like to do, is straighten out parts that I don't think are correct. If I don't comment on the rest of the post, I've either not had the time to read it or I'm not interested in reading it all. It's called freedom of speech.
, Eden
That is very clear to all.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
WildB wrote about Eden quote:
What Keeper said to you was "IF" you were going to slam a post shouldn't you read it in total.
In most posts there are some questionable statements that are not hard to find, and I comment on those. It does not require that I read the whole post. If it is not too long, I read the whole post and pick out the part that I disagree with (if there is one), and I comment on that. If the post is real long, I may just look for something that seems incorrect to me and comment on that.
That's what I like to do, is straighten out parts that I don't think are correct. If I don't comment on the rest of the post, I've either not had the time to read it or I'm not interested in reading it all. It's called freedom of speech.
love, Eden
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WildB
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posted
Eden deceptively writes,
"Keeper, you and I converse quite a bit, but you seem to have the notion that it is mandatory that each participant on this bbs read every post that somebody decides to post; "
That is not what was said.
What Keeper said to you was "IF" you were going to slam a post shouldn't you read it in total.
Stop your sillyness.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Keeper wrote quote:
EDEN; When I said your scriptures were out of context you responded "Could be out of context, not very likely. And I have no intention of going back there to see what you are talking about." Arrogance at its finest.
I just don't feel like going to look "back there" to see what you are talking about ... is that okay?
Keeper continued quote:
If you choose to use scripture with no responsibility or concern as to the truth of it there is something wrong in that picture. Your use of Ex 12:13 is so far off from what you claim that you should care. You and MH are doing this all the time.
Your opinion notwithstanding, I do use scripture with care and responsibility and I think my use of Exo 12:13 is very applicable in this case, thank you. But I get that YOU don't think so, which is fine.
Keeper finished with quote:
If you do not care if the others here respond to you or read your posts and the other way around then why are you here? I find conversation with you absolutely worthless.
Keeper, you and I converse quite a bit, but you seem to have the notion that it is mandatory that each participant on this bbs read every post that somebody decides to post; I just don't have that kind of time, or interest. I read what I feel like reading, and that's it, and I post when I feel up to it (although I do make an effort to post here because to me it is "working in the vineyard of the LORD" and I know that the LORD "pays His workers very well".
But everything is voluntary and nothing is mandatory, okay?
love, Eden
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Loose cannons? Seems to me, keeper, that your goal is to be objectionable. Seems to me that you 'flock' to the cannons. You do not have to participate with that which you disagree!
And bwildD, 'Flop!' Recognize that sound? Didn't even hit the ceiling, but it did make a terrific impression on the poor old floor. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif) Weren't you going to 'pray' for us, as you so stated in that other post? And now all you can do already is to 'create' strife, while blaming someone else for it?
May the Lord remove those that continue to drag dead fish. MH smelled your hands lately?
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Loose cannons? Seems to me, keeper, that your goal is to be objectionable. Seems to me that you 'flock' to the cannons. You do not have to participate with that which you disagree!
And bwildD, 'Flop!' Recognize that sound? Didn't even hit the ceiling, but it did make a terrific impression on the poor old floor. Weren't you going to 'pray' for us, as you so stated in that other post? And now all you can do already is to 'create' strife, while blaming someone else for it? It is one thing to disagree, but regrettably what people do is call names. It makes the case. That is keeping the commandments, is it not?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Keeper
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posted
WildB..I hope that you and the rest of ya enjoy yourselves. This is no life to live on this board. Too many loose cannons.
Posts: 481 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
You can't have dwelling in you, the Holy Spirit if you know not Him. If you have not received the Spirit of Christ, you have not known Christ at all! If you have received the Spirit of Christ, then you know Him.
Well, one who claims to know Him, does this sound like 'knowing Him?'
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
First of all, to whom is this written? It is important because it is written to Christians. It is an admonishment for them not to cort the world. There is a reason he tells them this, because if they cort the world, they are not "deep," and "intimate" with God.
And tell me, does it sound like knowing Him?
If your wife, or someone's, likes to talk about you (or hers), but always gets it wrong, does she 'know' you? Indeed, she does 'know you'. She lives and hangs around you. She is married to you. She has to be somewhat familiar with something about you. But maybe she gets it wrong overall because she doesn't try. Or maybe she is preoccupied with 'self-interests' which limit her ability to 'surrender' to truly knowing you. (Maybe she doesn't like you.) So, in the same vein in the case of this scripture by James, if one is friends with the world, is he or she 'knowing Him?' Is this not what, after all, James is saying? It is! And he is saying it to a bunch of people who no doubt go around saying that they 'know Him.' He rebukes them. After all, if you know someone, and if you love someone, you do not go around 'doing' the opposite of what is expected by the other, while saying you know that person. For in fact, that person may deny he or she knows you if it comes down to it. I think that can be found in scripture also.
We are called to know Him to the whole extent that it is possible on this side of the curtain. And here is a qualifier to reveal whether we do or not so that we will not be in the dark about this:
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
As I said, if you look at results in your own life (never mind what others say), you know that you are knowing Him by this qualification. If you are deceiving yourself about knowing Him, it will be evident by the failure to keep these things, for:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Is he talking about the difference between one's being saved or not being saved? Not at all! He is discussing the particular situation the beilever is in which indicates the quality of the relationship. After all, no man who is unsaved even bothers to 'keep' the commandments. What would be the reason? So the author is boldly indicating that one who claims to be saved is not necessarily 'knowing' Him as he should if the results are not that he is realizing the keeping of the Commandments. It is the qualifier which should cause us to consider!!! So, do you pass, or fail?
So, here again, by your very own words you betray yourself:
quote:
Michael, the phrase "know someone" in the bible many times means to have a deep or intimate relationship with that person.
Is it "deep," or "intimate" to neglect relationship. If one neglects the relationship will he or she be 'properly' informed about that relationship? But there will be relationship to speak of. But what is the quality of it?
quote:
John 14:7) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Just because the Spirit is abiding in you doesn't mean that you are 'abiding' in Him. It takes two. That is the point of all of these verses, not whether one is saved or not. Many a saved person is not walking the walk, even if he means well. And verses like this one are supposed to educate one so that he or she will not believe a lie:
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Such deceitfulness will 'keep' one from knowing God the way he is called to. And he will hide behind it thinking it will 'cover' him, as both Adam and Eve did in the garden. But it didn't work for them.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Keeper
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posted
EDEN; When I said your scriptures were out of context you responded "Could be out of context, not very likely. And I have no intention of going back there to see what you are talking about." Arrogance at it's finest.
If you choose to use scripture with no responsibility or concern as to the truth of it there is something wrong in that picture. Your use of Ex 12:13 is so far off from what you claim that you should care. You and MH are doing this all the time.
If you do not care if the others here respond to you or read your posts and the other way around then why are you here? I find conversation with you absolutely worthless.
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Copper25
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posted
Michael, I am going to put this real simple, look at my last post 12 June, 2009 06:44 AM, if I have spoken error, then quote the error and speak because my last post clearly shows that they that fail the test of 1 john, are clearly not God's children, neither have they known God.
You said quote:
Can one be saved and not know Him? Yes. Absolutely! Because HE says if you believe, you will be saved.
Not biblical
Once again Michael, a grievous error in your speaking.
Michael, the phrase "know someone" in the bible many times means to have a deep or intimate relationship with that person.
John 14:7) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
You can't have dwelling in you, the Holy Spirit if you know not Him. If you have not received the Spirit of Christ, you have not known Christ at all! If you have received the Spirit of Christ, then you know Him.
again
John 10:14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Lastly to address is this, you said
quote:
Because HE says if you believe, you will be saved.
Remember Michael, because God does not contradict Himself, the scripture can't contradict itself.
Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
I don't care how much someone were to confess Jesus Christ as Lord with their tongue, if there is no evidence of a working of God, no evidence of the supernatural regenerating work of the Holy Spirt upon that person, no fruitfulness manifested in their life at all, then that person is still lost.
With love in Christ,
Daniel
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Keeper wrote quote:
Eden... the post I was referring to was on 6/11 at 5:43 pm. Your scripture that you used was completely out of context.
Could be out of context, but very unlikely. And I have no intention of going back there to see what you are talking about.
Keeper continued quote:
I also noticed that you used in a post to MH as I skimmed through Ex 12:13 also taken out of context.
In other words, the blood on the posts represented the Later blood of Christ but not to cause God the Father to look the other way, you just made that up. If Jesus removed the record of sins why does God need to look away.
The blood on the doorposts of the faithful Israelites
in the land of Goshen was NOT ONLY a figure of the later blood of Christ (although it was that too), but the blood on the doorposts was very efficatious for the Israelites who were in the house. It wasn't just a symbol, it actually saved their lives if by faith they went out there and put the blood on the doorposts, and then they went back in hoping for the best.
God knows all the sins that they who are in the house have committed, but God does not consider it on this midnight, having instructed the death angel to look for only one thing: "if there is blood on the doorposts which are on the outside of the house, then pass over that house and kill no one there"; that is the Biblical record:
Exodus 12:13
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where you are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
Let's say that there were 10 Israelites to a same family in each house of the Israelites in the land of Goshen, and they had all gone outside to put the blood on the lintels and then they all went back inside and waited.
Now, Keeper, you know very well that among those 10 Israelites in each household there must have been at least 5 Israelites in each household who had dealt "somewhat unsavory " in their life's dealings, and as such, they were not deserving to be passed over by this blood that they put on the outside of the house.
God of course knew full well who was in each house and what they had done in their lives, so did God look the other way? Not entirely. A precious lamb did die for the sins of each household.
And in this case, God accounted that lamb worthy enough to suffice for the sins of each household, because the innocent slain lamb would also serve as a figure that His innocent Son Jesus, the Lamb of God, would later die for us.
So a precious lamb did die for each household in the land of Goshen, and additionally, God did not "look the other way", but God "forgave them because of the little lamb":
Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and will not remember your sins.
And the proof is in the pudding; God called no one by name to come outside their house in the land of Goshen, to say "I'm sorry, you are not worthy that I should pass over you; YOU need to pay for your sins".
No, if the sinners in each household HAD THE FAITH to put the blood on the outside of their doors, they were SAVED THEREBY, no matter WHO was inside the house.
Keeper continued quote:
When do we know if you are going to read our posts or not?
You will NEVER know if I have (or if anyone else has) read your posts unless I or someone else comments on them.
Keeper finished with quote:
Why bother if you don't feel they are worthy? Poot!
It has nothing to do with whether I think your posts (or anyone's posts) are worthy or not ... you have no idea how anyone's post affects me.
I'm sure that Carol Swenson's "Secrets Of The Abundant Life" is WORTHY, but there are lots of things in life that are WORTHY, so that does not mean that I'm going to read such a long dissertation on the "Secrets Of The Abundant Life".
I'm a free agent and I can do what I want, just like you. There is no Profile Police to mandate that "so and so reads this!!!!" I can do what I want and you can do what you want. I don't HAVE to read ANYTHING if I don't feel like it.
I do tend to read shorter Topics, but not long ones. In a long Topic, I may try to find one paragraph or a group of sentences that I disagree with, and comment on that, since that's about all I have time and interest for ... hey, I did not know that I HAD to read everything, Keeper?
But me using scriptures out of context? Never!!!
love, Eden
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Keeper
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posted
Eden... the post I was referring to was on 6/11 at 5:43 pm. Your scripture that you used was completely out of context.
I also noticed that you used in a post to MH as I skimmed through Ex 12:13 also taken out of context. In other words, the blood on the posts represented the Later blood of Christ but not to cause God the Father to look the other way, you just made that up. If Jesus removed the record of sins why does God need to look away. That is a story with much elastic. Just keep it simple.
When do we know if you are going to read our posts or not? Why bother if you don't feel they are worthy? Poot !
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Keeper
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posted
Eden, that was real nice of you to just say that lots of posts go unnoticed or not read. Especially when I said it was to you. Poot!
I guess it was asking too much of you.
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Michael Harrison
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posted
John makes this clear:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What truth? He is lying about the condition of his walk with God. For you can be saved, and still sin. He says:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
So sinning doesn't terminate one's salvation, at least, in my opinion, anytime soon. I think it eventually will, or can if one continues to harden his heart.
So, this verse is talking about RESULTS!
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
John is talking about the RESULTS of knowing Him, whereas, the average believer thinks this verse is telling him something to do!
You cannot DO the commandments!!! But the RESULT of knowing Him should be that you keep the commandments. You can never 'do' them. YOU NEEDN'T TRY! But this is GRACE. The RESULT of knowing Him is that you keep the commandments. So, look at yourself. What is the RESULT? Then are you knowing Him? Not, are you saved. Are you knowing Him? You can, according to this author, tell by the results!!!!
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Michael Harrison
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posted
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we [are] keep[ing] his commandments.
How so? Because the only way that this could happen is when we are KNOWING Him. For that is the result: the proof. If, says the verse, we know Him as we are called to, we will find that we are keeping the commandments. Otherwise we are not knowing Him, and all we are serving in our Christian life is our 'conception' of Him. There is a difference between knowing someone, and simply agreeing that we are knowing someone. We are to stop fooling ourselves, and know Him.
Can one be saved and not know Him? Yes. Absolutely! Because HE says if you believe, you will be saved. But if you do not cultivate the relationship, you are doing something else. Let me tell you, it doesn't matter what. If you are doing something else, you are missing the point.
I mean, we know Him when we are saved. Thereafter we substitute something else. We subsist on our memory thereafter, or some 'experience'. That however is in the past. He is looking at the now. Do you know Him? Are, you knowing Him? If so, then you will find that you are keeping the commandments. You are delivered from sin (not however from sinning. You can sin anytime you want.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
eden, it is so simple quote:
Likewise we who are under the mercy seat sprinkled with the blood of Jesus are mostly still dirty little piglets who have said to God, "I accept Jesus as my Substitute", and so thanks be to God, when "God sees the blood of Jesus on us, He WILL pass over",
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
In order to sin, one must be sanctified. How so? If one is as a piglett, one is 'already' in sin. If he is already sinning - he - already - is. How can the Apostle write to 'sin not' if one already is? First he has to stop. (I'll stop there so as not to confuse you.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
unregistered
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posted
Michael Harrison wrote quote:
Eden, show me in scripture. For you cannot have fellowship with the Father as a piglet. You are cut off. The only hope of fellowship with the Father is by the change which Jesus paid for you to have, as you place your faith in Him. If, by faith that change is not in effect, you are in doubt. Then you are a piglet. For after all, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."
I already showed you what happened in the land of Goshen with the Israelites, how the death angel passed over when he saw the blood.
There must have been a lot of dirty little piglets in each house and yet God did not even bother to knock on the door and say, "Steinberg, you need to come out, you're too dirty, you can't be under the blood that's on the outside of the house, sorry, you gotta come out".
No, not at all. When the death angel of God saw the blood, the death angel was instructed to "pass over". The blood of the slain lamb saved all the piglets in the house, because the piglets in the house had FAITH that when God said that He would pass over IF God saw the blood, that God MEANT WHAT HE SAID,thank you very much...
To me, Israel in Egypt was a micro display of what now are the Christians (Israel) and the world (Egypt). It will be likewise with us. When God sees the blood of Jesus on the lintels of OUR house (meaning this "tent" or body), God will simply PASS OVER, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, and God does NOT STOP and say to me, "Eden, you need to come out from under the blood of Jesus, you are still a very dirty little piglet".
NO. As in the land of Goshen which is our prototype and figure, God will NOT STOP when God sees the blood, HE WILL PASS OVER, no matter what the current condition of the person is under the blood. There were lots of piglets in the house in the land of Goshen, and HERE IS A GREATER THAN MOSES. If God did it for them, He will surely do it for us.
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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coppor: That tells me what you think. Also what I see, is that you have a premise, a preconception, as does most of the professing church. And you read scripture to reinforce your premise. It is not how it is supposed to work. Moreover, you have above confused verses which apply to different things, and used them together in the same paragraph. It is not at all convincing. In fact, it is distasteful.
quote:
Michael, you err grievously, very... very grievously in your interpretation!
It only takes one scripture coppor, to see the meaning. 'ONE!' I know that people take verses out of context oftentimes, using it to support some premise. However, let us understand that one scripture can sometimes stand alone and still speak volumes. In fact, your own words can be used to illustrate the TRUTH which you resist. Try this:
quote:
If one, walks in darkness, if one does not have sensitivity to sin and confessing their sin, if one does not keep the commandments of God, if one is in habitual sin, if one loves the world, if one hates his brother, then that person IS lost and is NOT saved.
You said, "if one hates his brother." What brother do you suppose John is referring to? He is referring to his 'Christian' brother, no less. Then how is he unsaved, if the man being referred to is his 'Christian' brother. Can an unsaved man have a Christian brother? Not in the Biblical sense. At least, he is not preaching to someone whose 'brother' got saved, yet he himself didn't.
How many Christian brothers "of yours" are NOT Christian? They are simply unbelievers if they are not saved. Therefore they cannot be referred to as brothers. So John is talking about the CONDITION of the believer who IS saved to make a point about the one's sinful state. The admonishment is for the actual Christian believer who 'hates' his Christian brother. That is no reference to saved vs. unsaved. And you are hopeless to talk to since you cannot see that.
You see what you want to see, sopper, instead of letting scripture guide you in what to see. You are dishonest with yourself, and therefore with others. You are dishonest about what HE requires, or you are misinformed. It is tragic. Anyone with an honest heart can see that what is stated above is true. If he or she cannot, it means trouble.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever shall teach something that is untrue shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. See! Even here it does not say that the one teaching the untruth is unsaved. For it refers to him as the 'least' in the Kingdom of heaven. That is wholly different than saying, "it shall be said of him that the devil is his father."
Duh!
I hope you'll get a life. I hate to be blunt. You need one.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Well, actually we may still be piglets who cannot be cleansed, but thank God, we are UNDER the mercy seat of Christ which is sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.
Eden, show me in scripture. For you cannot have fellowship with the Father as a piglett. You are cut off. The only hope of fellowship with the Father is by the change which Jesus paid for you to have, as you place your faith in Him. If, by faith that change is not in effect, you are in doubt. Then you are a piglett. For after all, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."
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Eden
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Keeper wrote quote:
Eden...did my post to you get lost or missed?
Lots of posts get "lost" or missed or go unanswered. Such is the abundant life on the bbs.
love, Eden
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Keeper
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Eden...did my post to you get lost or missed ?
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Copper25
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Copper,
I agree that we can say "yes" with our lips, but "no" with our hearts. We may be able to fool each other, but not God.
Yes, it is true!............ that even though we may say "yes" to God with our hearts, our boast is to be in the Lord Who loved us first and established the faith by which we have eternal life.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Now you got it my friend!
1 John 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Copper25
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Greetings micheal in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
darkness = unbelief, yes indeed, because they don't truly follow after the truth, nor after the Lord who is the turth, you are indeed right on that regaurd.
And what I was saying is this
one that walks in darkness according to 1John 1:6-7, is that this and every other test in this book, if one fails any of them, they are not saved but rather are lost.
Look at the test Micheal
If one, walks in darkness, if one does not have sensitivity to sin and confessing their sin, if one does not keep the commandments of God, if one is in habitual sin, if one loves the world, if one hates his brother, then that person IS lost and is NOT saved.
That is my point
Michael, watch this and learn,
all of the test are upon the same type application, saved verse unsaved.
John 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
now
1 john 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
If you do not truth, then how on earth can you abide in it? Let us now look at who else does not abide in truth shall we? John 8:44) "He(The devil!) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth"
test 2
1 john 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
guess who the truth is also not in. "He (the devil!) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him"
test 3
1 john 2:4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
guess who the truth is also not in. "He (the devil!) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him"
Test 4
1 John 2:9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1 John 2:11)But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Michael, now here is a good question for you to think about, Jesus is light, ALL true believers are the "children of light", so how on earth can a child of God walk in darkness?
Can a light walk on the path of darkness , or can darkness walk on the path of light? I think not. Think Michael!
Test 5
1 john 2
15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
If you are living a life loving the lust of the flesh, loving the pride of life, loving the lust of the eyes, then how on earth can you ever be having a relationship with God?
Those that live following after the lust of the flesh, clearly, are not saved! Aren't we as "children of God" also, the spiritual children
Romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
A true child of God will not live a life characterized by walking in the flesh.
As far as the pride of life. When ever people are lifted up with pride in the bible, they do not follow after the ways of God!
Matthew 5:3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. This is a must, something that will be a characteristic of a true child of God.
As for the others who are not children of God?
Proverbs 16:18) Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. The children of pride, the children of satan.
Now Michael, you said
these two examples
quote:
For example:
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
This is intentionally leading somewhere. John is making a point about the difference between relationship, and relationship. So it is like he is saying with his hand on his hip, and his finger pointed, "you got saved, but there is more you need to understand."
quote:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[This doesn't mean he is not saved. What John is saying here, albeit extremely boldly is that 'He that says he knows Him, is kidding himself. Being saved and knowing Him is not exactly the same. When you know someone, you understand him.]
Michael, you err grievously, very... very grievously in your interpretation!
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Eden
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
But Romans does not say that we are piglets who cannot be cleansed, who must 'cope' with the fact. In fact, Romans says the opposite, as do these books of John, as well as the rest of scripture.
Well, actually we may still be piglets who cannot be cleansed, but thank God, we are UNDER the mercy seat of Christ which is sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.
As long as we have the mercy seat on us, when God looks at us, He does not count or measure or consider our sinful selves underneath, but God says, "Oh, I see that this sinner has asked that Jesus be his Substitute" and as a result, when God sees the blood of Jesus, God will pass over:
Exodus 12:13
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where you are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you ...
When the Israelites inside the houses in Egypt by faith put the blood on the lintels of the door OUTSIDE the house, when the death angel came by, when He saw the blood, He passed over.
He did not first stop at each house to SEE WHO WAS INSIDE and whether everyone was DESERVING of being PASSED BY.
No, indeed, there were a lot of dirty little piglets inside, but all the piglets, or at leat the majority of the piglets, in the house had ENOUGH FAITH in the word of God TO PUT BLOOD on the lintels, and on the basis of THE BLOOD ALONE the death angels passed by.
Likewise we who are under the mercy seat sprinkled with the blood of Jesus are mostly still dirty little piglets who have said to God, "I accept Jesus as my Substitute", and so thanks be to God, when "God sees the blood of Jesus on us, He WILL pass over", withour first considering whether the person who has "put the blood of Jesus" on him is worthy or not or dirty or not. If they have "put the blood on the lintels of their body house", the death angel WILL pass over, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. So there will be a lot of dirty little piglets underneath ... until they are glorified...
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
People take this verse to mean, "I have sin. I have sin. It can't be gotten rid of. I have sin." But they think it can be hidden..... Duh!
One has to understand the posture of John in saying this. It is positional. In other words, before we 'approach' Him, we have to be mindful of the fact that we have sin. But, having approached Him, the result should be that we are cleansed. Else, people who believe otherwise might as well keep this verse, and chapter seven of Romans, and throw the rest of the bible away. But Romans does not say that we are piglets who cannot be cleansed, who must 'cope' with the fact. In fact, Romans says the opposite, as do these books of John, as well as the rest of scripture.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
This whole part for example is errouneous simply
You said, "What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus"
If you read at the bottom where he describes one's 'hating' his brother, John clearly says that the one so doing is "IN DARKNESS." That does not imply that he is not saved. However, it implies that he is in darkness compared to where he should be. So, "darkness" is a state, or condition of the saved Christian, wherein he is not living HOLY. He may attend church. He may even confess Christ, however, he is not in the state of relationship he is called to.
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us [as we do with the Father]: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be FULL.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[Just remember that I just said you are to have fellowship with the Father as we do. So,]
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness [in the flesh], we lie, and do not the truth:
[What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus. Just because one is saved doesn’t mean he is experiencing that changing power to the degree THAT IT IS PROVIDED! The one will be found to be in ‘darkness’ compared to where he is called to be.]
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[If we are in the light as HE is…… we have? Fellowship! Otherwise the clouds hide HIS face. But it is possible to rise above the clouds because the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Otherwise we are in that ‘darkness’ described above because, quite simply, the blood is not cleansing from that sin.]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[Before we can come to the point of repentance, we have to confess that we have sin. Obviously we cannot repent from ‘not’ having sin. And,]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[ALL!]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
[But HE will cleans us from ALL, if we believe Him about this.]
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[And what is keeping the commandments? It is abiding in Him without sinning. No simpler way may it be said.]
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[This doesn't mean he is not saved. What John is saying here, albeit extremely boldly is that 'He that says he knows Him, is kidding himself. Being saved and knowing Him is not exactly the same. When you know someone, you understand him.]
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[But he who keeps the word has this witness within him, that he ‘knows’ he is “IN’ Him. For,]
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
For example:
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
This is intentionally leading somewhere. John is making a point about the difference between relationship, and relationship. So it is like he is saying with his hand on his hip, and his finger pointed, "you got saved, but there is more you need to understand."
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Michael Harrison
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If the believer necessarily has an 'evil' heart; if the believer only has a wicked heart which cannot be otherwise, and God just somehow overlooks it, then this would be a stupid thing to say, would it not?
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Micheal, plainly put, if someone is walking in darkness, then they have a lifestyle that denies Christ, even though they say that they know him. These type of people who walk in darkness are not really saved, nor cleansed by Jesus blood.
As I recall I stated that the scriptures are written to believers, about believers. I stated that they 'reapply'. And if one wants to discover HE who is within them, he would do well to reapply them to himself, and not to others.
Not as though I didn't say this already in this conversation, but the reason Paul said, for example: "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith," was to encourage that one to whom he was speaking, to look to see if he was where he was supposed to be in relationship. That isn't a statement issued to unbelievers for their consumption, for such to discover whether they are 'saved' or not. After all, they wouldn't likely be reading the scriptures. And they already know, if it comes down to it, that they are not. Therefore it is clearly worded as a call to examine one's self, in the light of Paul's very own words, explicitly, to see if one fits the description which he puts forth about the Christian life.
You would do well not to suppose yourself to know so much, and to humble yourself to listen.
Darkness, as described by John and Paul is a condition of unbelief that afflicts believers. It is not the darkness of those who do not know Christ. It is more like a condition of malnourishmen of the believer, as if one were to compare with third world conditions of starvation. It is a coming short of the nourishment goal.
I sometimes tell it like this. You will often hear of some who mention that the clouds are hiding His face. For months they may experience, or endure, not feeling like Christians, though they know they are saved. Yet there is no 'hilltop' relationship - only the valley. There is only doubt, and concern, and the tough questions like, "am I really saved." Well, this is not a condition that God the Father ordains. It is a rude condition which many a beliver does, or has experienced in his walk, which the Father doesn't sanction. It is not a test. It is not His purpose that the saint should experience this. This is a dark place. It is a place where one does not feel secure in his faith.
Neither is it uncommon.
So then come those who are trying to console someone while in this condition, who say, "Well, it is not based on feelings." They are correct. Indeed, it is not. But that is only half right. God's word is the standard. The facts in God's word are the all important markers we are to go by. We accept the facts and go with them. However those trying to console, themselves do not know that the facts indicate that HE didn't create us to suffer His face being hidden by the clouds. Therefore they don't know how to console.
Thanks for your concern, but it is misplaced. There is a condition of the believer called 'walking in the flesh'. And there is a condition called 'walking in the Spirit'. Walking in the Spirit doesn't happen just because. It is a product of faith. And walking in the flesh is clearly a compromise.
And people refuse to see that they are not confined to it. But that is where the clouds 'hide' HIS face - not so when walking in the Spirit.
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Keeper
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Just a couple of thoughts. It was said that when a person hears the word and "realizes how stupid they were" could mislead some. If you are not aware of the word, then how could you be stupid about it?
Quickeneth means: To giveth life to, not to giveth life again. In John 6:63 Jesus is talking about his spirit, he is talking about communion, he is talking about the word which is of his spirit and which is life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life to)the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So, go back to verse 52 and read to verse 63.
Now read John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Copper,
I agree that we can say "yes" with our lips, but "no" with our hearts. We may be able to fool each other, but not God.
Yes, it is true!............ that even though we may say "yes" to God with our hearts, our boast is to be in the Lord Who loved us first and established the faith by which we have eternal life.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Copper25
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simply put
if there is conviction
A man can say yes to God with his lips, yet say no with his heart.
The yes of the heart is from God's working.
there, plain simplicity. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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Copper25
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Honestly, this is a good discussion.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
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oneinchrist
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Good morning Eden,
My dear friend in the Lord, yes, I agree with you that there is a "quickening" that transpires when one comes under the hearing of the word of God. I never thought of it in those terms before, but I believe in the power of the truth.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Eden
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Hello, oneinchrst, if I may comment on two of your paragraphs above, you wrote quote:
Personally, I believe that "conviction of sin" and "quickened by the spirit" are two distinct things.
I believe that "conviction of sin" is a non-selective process that happens when individuals come under the hearing of the word of God; whereas I believe that "quickening by the spirit" is the selective process whereby man is entrusted with the Holy Ghost, but not until after he has responded favorably in Gods eyes.
Yes, I agree with you ... in my opinion what happens when an unsaved individual HEARS the Word of God, is that the words of the Word of God are SPIRIT and they are LIFE (zoe life, divine life):
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quicken; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Now, when Adam and Eve first sinned, they began to run their lives from the soul position, and IGNORED their spirit of man, until, after hundreds and hundreds of years of operating their lives from their SOUL position, unsaved men NO LONGER KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR SPIRIT or even that they HAVE a spirit.
So what happens to an unsaved individual when he HEARS the Word of God, whose words are SPIRIT, is that the SPIRIT words do not speak to his SOUL but speak to his SPIRIT and so his SPIRIT is QUICKENED for the first time since Adam and Eve sinned, as in, "what is this?"
So the words of God in the Bible quicken, make alive again, the spirit of man which the unsaved individual did not even know he had.
To repeat now what you said, oneinchrst quote:
I believe that "conviction of sin" is a non-selective process that happens when individuals come under the hearing of the word of God ...
Yes, all that happens when an individual hears the Word of God is that their spirit is rediscovered and quickened by these words. But such a man is NOT saved yet, and only "is discovering his spirit for now".
oneinchrist, you then continued quote:
Now for those who hold to the doctrine of the "total depravity of man" , they do not believe that man even has the ability to respond favorably.
While I agree that man does not have the ability to change his nature from that of being dead in sin to being alive (spiritually), I disagree with the theology of man being unable to respond favorably.
I believe that man has the intrinsic God-given ability , to be able to understand the truth when it is presented to him and make a decision regarding it......such as rejecting it or accepting it as true and reliable, repenting of sin, and turning to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
Once a man's spirit is quickened by the Word of God, then man, as the soul, can choose to save himself or not by repenting from running his life by the soul and man can again choose to live his life by the spirit, as it was sin the garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned.
The Word of God WAKES him up to the fact that he has been living a hopelessly failed life by trying to run his life from the soul level, and he repents from doing that and accepts that Jesus died for all the sins stupidly committed during that "soul rule", and he agrees to turn again to his own spirit for counsel and to the Counsel of the Holy Spirit which is now again available to him, and thus the man begins to run his life again according to his original blueprint from the Manufacturer: the Spirit of God to the spirit of man, the spirit of man to the soul, and the soul to the body:
1 Thessalonians 5
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
When an unsaved man's spirit is stirred by the spirit words of the Word of God, then man becomes aware of what he has done and can repent of it and turn again to God's original blueprint of how a man ought to live his life, by the spirit, and not by the soul.
love, Eden
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oneinchrist
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Hi again Copper,
Once again, I will repeat that I am not speaking as an authority on the scriptures, but I am sharing with you the way in which I perceive the scriptures in regards to the matter of "conviction of sin".
You had asked me if I could provide scripture support of the occurrence of "conviction of sin" with a "no" answer. I believe that Acts 2 vs. 37-41 shows us an example of just that.......
37 Now when they heard this, they were PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, and said unto Peter.......
(skip to vs. 41)
41 Then THEY THAT GLADLY ACCEPTED HIS WORD were baptized
Now, I think that I understand some of the Reformed theology a little better. It appears to me that they equate "conviction of sin" with "quickened by the spirit". Personally, I believe that "conviction of sin" and "quickened by the spirit" are two distinct things. I believe that "conviction of sin" is a non-selective process that happens when individuals come under the hearing of the word of God; whereas I believe that "quickening by the spirit" is the selective process whereby man is entrusted with the Holy Ghost, but not until after he has responded favorably in Gods eyes.
Now for those who hold to the doctrine of the "total depravity of man" , they do not believe that man even has the ability to respond favorably. While I agree that man does not have the ability to change his nature from that of being dead in sin to being alive(spiritually), I disagree with the theology of man being unable to respond favorably. I believe that man has the intrinsic God-given ability , to be able to understand the truth when it is presented to him and make a decision regarding it......such as rejecting it or accepting it as true and reliable, repenting of sin, and turning to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
You were proposing(I think) that a lack of true conversions may be explained by a lack of sin conviction. Personally, I think theres lots of reasons why there are not true conversions.......but not because God does not want to save them, or because His Word is not able to convict(bring awareness of sinfullness,guilt).
Do people turn to Christ through effective preaching? yes!
Can preachers be effective without the help of the Holy Ghost?.....absolutely not!
The Holy Ghost is for our sanctification to make us more like Jesus, no not just for the sake of being more like Jesus, but for the sake of being more like Jesus to reach the lost. The Holy Spirit will teach us humility, patience, love, longsuffering, etc. so that we may see a harvest(of souls)all in Gods timing.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Copper25
Advanced Member
Member # 7464
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posted
Greetings in the name of Jesu Christ
Micheal, some of you interpretations are off and are not accurate.
quote:
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus. Just because one is saved doesn’t mean he is experiencing that changing power to the degree THAT IT IS PROVIDED! That one is in ‘darkness’ compared to where he is called to be.]
This whole part for example is errouneous simply
You said, "What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus"
Micheal, plainly put, if someone is walking in darkness, then they have a lifestyle that denies Christ, even though they say that they know him. These type of people who walk in darkness are not really saved, nor cleansed by Jesus blood.
You need to be careful if you ever were to teach a soul, because frankly, some of the things you say are just plain false. I really worry about you. I hope you seek the Lord more, and that His Spirit lead you.
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Isaiah 40:6) The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field
Posts: 262 | From: Rochester, NY | Registered: Nov 2008
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What is John saying here? Is he saying that the one is not a Christian? He is not! He is saying that the one is not being truthful about where he stands with God. In fact, he may not perceive that he is not where he should be. But he may justify it because he is 'trying'. But the Holy Spirit does convict. Yet, as stated, he rationalizes it because he is trying.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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