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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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I have taken time to give it some thought and for someone to say that I come across as though I know more than anybody else, here is my answer. If someone knows something that others ‘don’t’, he may sound as though he is coming across as though he knows more than others do. In fact though, he might. Paul was one such as this. He knew something others didn’t. All he did was to try to express it. But people turned what he said into a doctrine of ‘doing’, and by so doing, missed what he was trying to say. They still do today, prolifically! It is bottomless what people conceive from his words. But do they really hear what he is saying?
A person who does not trust himself to Jesus, CANNOT be changed by grace. But there are many fakers. There are many professors, who ‘claim‘ to trust Jesus who are ready to ‘teach‘ others. Yet when the truth is spoken, they themselves cannot ‘receive’ it. Still, they say they are professors - ’the’ professors. It is worth noting however, if one depends upon himself even for the least of anything, he cannot be perfect. Why? Faith in yourself is hopeless, astonishingly so. Another way to say that is that it is ‘imperfect’ to trust yourself. What you will therefore see is your failure. That is what you will therefore reap. he doesn't mean for you to trust yourself.
His perfection, understand, is your perfection, or the relationship is tarnished. If you go to a jeweler and order a custom cut stone, then the jeweler’s perfection is your perfection. Why? He did it ‘for you’. You couldn’t do it yourself. You had to rely on HIS perfection! Your being inexperienced and incapable could only fail. But with God, if you will, you are HIS jewel. He does the work. Therefore HIS perfection is your perfection. How so? Well, since you don’t have to depend upon yourself, you don’t have to mess it up, even if you can. Therefore, HIS perfection is your perfection as, and only as you trust and walk therein. But where you doubt HIM is where you still sin. For if the stone doubts its maker, it insults the maker’s perfect ability. No higher insult can be paid.
But if you have a part, apart from faith in the finished work and working, imperfect is what you can expect. Don't look at yourself. Then your eyes are off of Him. And if it is on others, it is off of Him.That is the worst that can happen!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
You said: a person who does not trust himself to Jesus cannot be changed by grace.
I agree with you. In fact, I believe that "entrusting ourselves into the hands of Jesus" is what it means to "consecrate ourselves to God". When I was doing a study on "baptism in the Name of the Lord" I discovered that being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus signified ones consent to transfer ownership of their life over to the Lord. I do not think that is the way that we look at it today.......sad, but true.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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And I wanted to add last night that, if you are someone who believes that sanctification is a lifetime experience, you have not 'understood' it the way HE wants one to. Therefore one is in the 'wilderness' wandering until he discovers.
Come out of the desert! Amen.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
I discovered that being baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus signified ones consent to transfer ownership of their life over to the Lord.
Yes, initially we consent, Daniel. However, thereafter we resist. For what seems like a lifetime of 'sanctification' we fail to recognize what it truly meant when we gave our life to Him to be Lord over it. We frustrate HIS grace by witholding ourselves, while thinking we are surrendering by the little acts of 'doing' which we perform.
Amen!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
I noticed that Caretaker did point out some scriptures that appear to show "sanctification" as an on-going process.
Would you be willing to show some scriptures that show "sanctification" to be "instantaneous" or a "one-time experience?"
It has been my thought, Michael, that your posts describe the act of "consecration to God" and that you are using the word "sanctification" instead. In my study, I believe that "consecration" can be limited to a point in time; whereas, "sanctification" is not limited to a point in time, but rather an on-going process.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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AAAh Michael!,
You just reminded me of something I though of the other day in reference to "doing". If we are converted Christians, in the faith of Jesus, and have the spirit of God in us.............. and the spirit of God is leading us a certain direction, and we follow that guidance, then we are "doing what God wants us to do"(towards His plan for us)...........not what we want to do for Him.
Do you see the distinction?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Yes Daniel! FAITH realizes the meaning of scriptures which can be otherwise interpreted. But to help with this, here is the paramount description of reality: 1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Jesus IS MADE unto us..... That sounds like "DONE!" And what is HE made unto us? Wisdom, do you discover that to be within you? Righteousness, I will let this one slide, since I already know the concept the reader holds. SANCTIFICATION, how can HE be 'made unto us' sanctification? And if HE is 'made unto us' sanctification, how do we participate? (Faith, believing.) Therefore what one interprets to be a lifetime process of sanctifying, one would do well to consider as a lifetime process rather, of 'abiding' in the sanctification already accomplished. Therefore one is IN sanctification, or he is struggling, trying to make sense of what it means to be sanctified.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Ahhhh Daniel, our doing is always passive. We are 'followers', not doers. And we cannot be followers if we are leading God. And if we are following, we are RECEIVING of God. If we are receiving, we are therefore 'accepting' the will of God, and HE is doing the doing.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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But one group of Christianity feels that it 'contributes'. It is a false concept. It is the concept of Cain. It is also the concept of the carnal nature, which cannot 'please' God. And such carnal nature abides still in the believer, until such an one is truly, through faith, under the Cross.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Michael,
I agree with you in the importance of seeing the distinction between "following the leading of God" and "establishing our own standards of righteousness".
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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But....
It misses the point. Perhaps it would help to consider that following 'a' leading is different than following 'all' leading. And I don't mean to imply "in succession." In other words, one can follow 'a' leading back to back with another leading, and so on. But 'all' leading, is the whole understanding.
Establishing our own standards of righteousness comes from thinking we are following 'a' leading.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Israel, being 'ignorant' about how it really is with God, went about trying to establish their own. What this means is that by trying to establish their own, they 'displaced' God from being in control of their destiny. They 'rejected' God. The whole time they thought they were 'pleasing' Him. Such are we, yet we do not see it. And we will fight to blood to justify what we believe. But it is an attempt to 'establish' our own righteousness, or to justify our lack thereof.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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That takes me back to a previous post where I stated that if one thinks that sanctification is a lifetime process, he has not understood what God wants him to. He still has something to discover. That is the assertion of the author of the epistles. And those who have realized, do labor to see others also do.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Michael,
I thought I was catching on to some of the things that you were saying, but after your last two posts I am totally lost.
If it is only in someones "imagination" that they are being led by the spirit, then it is for them to discover. I do not commit myself to make those types of judgements, even though I may have a personal opinon as to whether or not someone is in the faith.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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one's self, oneinchrist. I am not speaking of judging others. We are to judge ourselves to see if we are 'in' the faith.
Imaginations! These are supposed to be cast down, no? Why? They exalt themselves against truly knowing God, or perfectly, if one will endure the expression. They exalt themselves against knowing the will of God. Therefore what imaginations accomplish is 'self-deception'. But willingly! For it truly is hard to lie to one's self. Somehow though, people manage.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Maybe we can go back to:
Michael,
I agree with you in the importance of seeing the distinction between "following the leading of God" and "establishing our own standards of righteousness".
No! Let's go back farther:
and the spirit of God is leading us a certain direction, and we follow that guidance, then we are "doing what God wants us to do"(towards His plan for us)...........not what we want to do for Him.
See, "doing what God wants us to do, towards HIS plan for us," is contributing. It is not following, at least, as well as I am able to determine by the wording, contributing is the notion expressed. In other words, it is still 'doing' what we want to do for Him, but in different clothing.
What HE wants us to do is to receive. One may have to show up somewhere and maybe even 'say' something, to receive what HE is manifesting. That is doing. However it is in the spirit of receiving.
Whereas there is a notion of contributing involved when we think we 'accomplish' something because we think we obeyed. It is pretty subtle to discern. But receiving is more like being in the right place at the right time, if we will only so consider. Whereas thinking we make something happen is accomplishment, we think.
But that is where pride entereth. For if we do not 'accomplish' it (whatever), then where's the boasting rights? I didn't 'do' it. But do I boast because I 'received' it???
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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So I am not knocking 'word of faith', but thinking we 'accomplish' something is tantamount to that. But it would be dishonest if we bragged that we 'accomplished' something by our faith, though we may sometimes phrase, or hear it phrased by someone, that way. In fact however, we receive the finished work of God, performed in our behalf, by our obedience of faith (knowing what HE will do). The 'works' were, after all, finished from the foundation of the world.
Therefore if HE doesn't give it, whatever it is, we can only secure it by coveteousness, which leads to actions that intend to lay hold. Therefore we would be stealing, for we transgress Him in order to have it if HE didn't give it.
The seed of sin will have been planted by our desire. Does that sound familiar? But idolatry and lusts, apart from Christ, lead us to desire a thing, and we accomplish the 'having' thereof through transgression of the Lord. These are by the lusts of the flesh, and the transgression of our Lord's will. "For the pride of life, the lust of the eyes, and the lusts of the flesh are not of the Father."
Therefore through coveteousness we would assertain to have, or aim to gain. Therefore we would sin in lusting to have, or to accomplish the goal of our desire. That is where sin comes in.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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So, the only way to avoid sinning is for our provision to be complete. For sin comes from the desire to 'have', signifying our provision is incomplete (Consider David and Bathsheba). So, for our provision to be complete, we need to accept HIS whole will, knowing He has provided. And to lust for evil things (even things that seem good in themselves) is invalidated if we accept His will for our lives. That is how we rise above sin. For then HIS sufficiency is our sustinence (Bread of Life). Where then is the sin? For it is when we 'lust' after evil things that we say that HE is not sufficient. That is when and where we transgress Him in all things.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Do you understand what I am saying? Only if we accept HIS whole will for our lives can we abide in Him and avoid transgression. Otherwise we are 'doing' our own thing, and our own thing accomplishes nothing but transgression, even if we think we are 'doing' it 'for' Him.
And doing our own thing is the same as our wanting to be the 'Master'. For we want the dominion over our lives. And faith says that Jesus knows best what we want, even more so than we do. And faith says that His plan for our lives is better than anything we could dream up. Therefore, faith accomplishes for us what we could never because we cannot design the ultimate outcome even with all of our scheming. He knows best. When we submit to that we GLORIFY Him, and His provision overcomes our sin.
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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Michael,
Here you are again with your unorthodox teachings. You say, quote:
we need to accept HIS whole will
I'll ask you a couple of questions to try to understand your repeated pronouncements. Who does this "accepting" of God's will? Is it the individual's self or is Christ within the individual?
I'm still trying to understand if an individual has any role or part in his or her salvation, and if so what is the nature of that role? How can an individual "have" Christ without "doing" anything to "receive" him? I'm still confused regarding the basic process of salvation according to your perspective. Your straight brief answers to these questions will be helpful.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Are you struggling with Calvin?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Who believes?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
How can an individual "have" Christ without "doing" anything to "receive" him?
Did you 'cause' your salvation? Then what did your 'doing' accomplish, but to receive? Is your 'doing' active, or passive? If it is active, it caused your salvation.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
How does one seek HIM? Does he climb a mountain to query a wise man? Does he take yoga classes till he reaches kharma? Or does one seek HIM by faith.
That leads to, does the hearer believe that God is active in His creation? Does the hearer believe that God is 'personally' involved in the life of the believer. For if he doesn't, he necessarily must accomplish on his own, what he believes God has asked. And since he cannot, he is without hope. So why is he preaching?
As this verse implies, one must believe that HE is personally involved. And there is that qualification that reads, "or it is impossible to please Him." What a strong indicator.
And further, that HE is a rewarder, that means in the now, as one trusts Him by faith. Else where is the 'relationship', unless it is a really truly 'loong' distance one in which one is 'guessing' about the particulars of the outcome.
Amen!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Y'all so fun! Sumone's gonna get it yet!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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You see, nobody reads. They don't read what I post, and even far worse, they don't read the scriptures. That makes it thoroughly difficult to discuss anything. For when they read my posts, they already have an opinion which prevents them from considering. Yet they 'fire' back. Even worse, when they read the scriptures they already have an opinion. They have a conclusion; a formulation in mind. Therefore they do not 'read' the scriptures, nor my posts. They read at them. And once more, this is how they read the scriptures.
The problem with this is that such people 'pre' interprets scripture, and respond according to their instincts, which are based on their predeterminations. We are not called to predetermine.
But let us consider, is our relationship, 'future tense?'
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Do we "come boldly to the throne of grace," in the future, or now? And after all, do we find "help in the time of need," now, when we need it, or in the future? An honest heart can discern this. Therefore, is relationship now, or in the future? This could be a critical deciding factor, ye who digress. For if you are putting it off till the future, what you can have now, your fate may be in peril. I am only telling you what scripture says. That is not because I am judging, but because the Spirit of God cares.
So I have learned that people do not read. They predetermine. And they respond based upon their 'predetermination'.
Wyldb: you need to read 1John concerning loving the brethren. Therein, says he, is the proof whether one is a child of God. (1John 4:20) After all, consider that Jesus Himself wasn't afraid even of Judas. And according to His own words, HE didn't judge him either, though he betrayed Him.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He didn't even judge Judas. And if you were secure in your belief, you wouldn't have to defend it by calling anyone names.
I would that you were secure. Though the flesh is tempted by your provocation, the Spirit bleeds Jesus.
People seem to embrace this thing called 'salvation', this 'abstract' thing called salvation. They want salvation. They perceive that there is something in it. They need to want Jesus. It is that simple~!
Going back, like I said, our gifted ambassador, Paul (if he indeed wrote Hebrews) said (and I feel he did), "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace." That implied present tense in the hour he wrote it. It also implies present tense as one reads it. For to find help in the time of need is not 'future tense'. Else it would not matter. For then we would be glorified.
So is relationship with the Christ NOW, or future tense. If it is now, one would be wise to grasp some terribly important things.
Amen!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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And why do we "come boldly to the throne of grace to find help in the time of need?"
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
That is, if we have come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may be like Him here and now.
Amen!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Also:
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
And we cannot be as HE IS, (so are we in the world), if we do not accept HIS changing grace.
This is why HE says to come BOLDLY to the throne of grace,
to find help,
in the time of
need!
What need?
Well, what does grace minister to? What need have we?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Grace enables us to overcome. And grace is by faith. And overcoming is a requirement.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Can a man 'have' a good heart?
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Who can know the heart?
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
How can a 'good' man, out of the 'good' treasure of his heart, bring forth 'good' things, but by the Spirit of God, who changes it, as one believes unto righteousness? The word (Heb 4:12) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, allowing us to 'repent' from evil.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Hey Micheal, haven't talked to you in a bit. Good to have you back.
The bible says (Hebrews 4:16) "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
True and I will say this, that man in his natural state WILL NOT come to God and love the purity of His truth.
The problem with man is that even if he were given the option of being saved, submitting to God and repent, or live in his own ways; man will naturally choose his own ways.
As it is written (Psalm 53:2-3) "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
again
1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If a tell a natural man, "ok go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the Spirit of God moved upon their hearts to convict them, they would NEVER want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
ezekiel 37
1) The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2) And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3) And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
This is what it is like speaking to an unconverted person. Do we know if they are going to live, be raised from the condition of being dead in their sins, and come unto Jesus in full truth? No, only God knows.
Do you see Micheal?
I am not saying that a person should just sit on the couch and wait for the Holy Spirit to hit them, but unless the Spirit moves upon them, what receiving can a person do? Can a stone heart sense the things of God? Can the carnal man treause those things that are spiritual?
Micheal, you said
quote:
A person who does not trust himself to Jesus, CANNOT be changed by grace.
But truth be told, and scripture proves it, that unless the grace of God, the woking of the Holy Spirit comes upon a man, he WILL NOT trust himself to Jesus to begin with.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Copper,
I believe that there are more people who are convicted of sin.........than people who end up repenting as a result of the conviction.
In other words, I do not believe that conviction of sin(to be made aware of ones sinfulness or guilt) means automatic conversion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Hi oneinchrist,
you said
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Copper,
I believe that there are more people who are convicted of sin.........than people who end up repenting as a result of the conviction.
In other words, I do not believe that conviction of sin(to be made aware of ones sinfulness or guilt) means automatic conversion.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Did I ever say such a thing? Can you show me where I implied that conviction means automatic conversion?
I said this
quote:
that unless the grace of God, the woking of the Holy Spirit comes upon a man, he WILL NOT trust himself to Jesus to begin with.
Now I do say this, that their is a common grace that God has upon man kind. Why you say?
Genesis 6:5) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
If man were to be left purely to the imaginations of his own heart, then this world world would be a lot different I believe.
I hope I have made my veiw some what clearer
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Copper,
The reason why I thought what I thought was because of this statement of yours..........
"If I tell a natural man "ok, go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the spirit of God moved upon their heart to convict them, they would never want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
It appears to me that you were giving the impression that out of the massive amounts of people that come under the hearing of the gospel, that the Holy Ghosts function is to select only certain ones to give conviction of sin(more or less implying that only those who receive conviction will repent and turn to Christ); whereas, I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide........ either continue on the same as before or repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again Copper,
The reason why I thought what I thought was because of this statement of yours..........
"If I tell a natural man "ok, go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the spirit of God moved upon their heart to convict them, they would never want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
It appears to me that you were giving the impression that out of the massive amounts of people that come under the hearing of the gospel, that the Holy Ghosts function is to select only certain ones to give conviction of sin(more or less implying that only those who receive conviction will repent and turn to Christ); whereas, I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide........ either continue on the same as before or repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
With love in Christ, Daniel
quote:
It appears to me that you were giving the impression that out of the massive amounts of people that come under the hearing of the gospel, that the Holy Ghosts function is to select only certain ones to give conviction of sin
oneinchrist, brother, have ye not read Acts 2:47, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
I must ask you something, oneinchrist, do you thing that anyone who is not elected by God will ever come to the pure Unadulterated truth?
Let us now, oneinchrist look at the heart of the unconverted man shall we.
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Now let me ask you something, do you think that a heart of stone is going to be sensitive to the working of God's grace and conviction of the Holy Spirit naturally?
Think about it my freind, there is a reason why a unconverted man can sit under some of the most powerful preaching, and sit there cold as a stone, unaffected at all.
While in the same audience, a godly converted man may be wailing in tears, crying out to God.
Think about it my friend, heart of stone verses heart of flesh. One sensitive to conviction and the other naturally not.
quote:
(more or less implying that only those who receive conviction will repent and turn to Christ)
oneinchrist, I am suprised that you would say this. The first step is conviction. This is why many never come to Jesus, because there is no conviction upon their heart.
I ask you now a third question, can a person come to true repentance apart from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit?
quote:
whereas, I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide........ either continue on the same as before or repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
oneinchrist, here is the problem.
I am going to give a scenario.
A guy comes into church, hears the word of God (biblical preaching) and according to your theory, they feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit upon their heart. Now you say it is up to this man to decide whether to "repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification", or not. Is God just looking down from heaven saying, man I hope he comes to me because I have plans for this man. Is God just sitting on the throne winging it that this man submits to his plans?
oneinchrist, be careful in the way you decribe this because you know what it sounds like.... that it is based more off of a man's DECISION and not God's election, therefore, the human would have control and not God.
This is what it sounds like,
Q) How did you get saved sir, why did this all start?
He responds, well the because I chose God and allowed Him to work in me.
You make it sound like, and I mean this in the nicest way, that God can't do anything unless a human, a weak human says yes.
tell me this oneinchrist
question 4 Do you see this argument as one that could happen?
God: I choose you in my election
man: no
God: come on, I am convicting your heart, please
man: I said no
God: The more you keep saying no, the sadder I get
man: I will say no forever
God: Aw, thats it, I give up
please answer my questions, thank you
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Copper,
I believe you had 5 questions for me. Here we go.
1. Do you think that anyone who is not elected by God will ever come to the pure unadulterated truth?
ANSWER: No, but what I will say is that I disagree with your apparent view on the manner in which God elects(exercises His sovereignty)
I believe I am entitled to my own opinion on this difficult subject.
2. Do you think that a heart of stone is going to be sensitive to the working of Gods grace and the conviction of the Holy Spirit naturally?
ANSWER: No, but at the same time I believe it is an error to assume that Gods dealings with man over the last 6000+ yrs. has not had any effect on our God-given conscience. We even have laws based on the commandments of God.
I believe that the verse that you use about "a heart of stone" is primarily in reference to God establishing a New Covenant with His people, not a reference to describing His method of election.
3. Can a person come to true repentance apart from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit?
ANSWER: No, that is like saying.... Can a person come to true repentance without hearing the word of God (good news of the gospel)?
4. Is God looking down from heaven saying, "Man, I hope he comes to me because I have plans for this man?"
ANSWER:No, God desires that we come to Him and He knows if we will. I would like to note that I do believe that there is a "general call" to mankind that is distinct from the "official call" of a chosen leader.
5. Do you see this argument as one that could happen?(see your above post)
ANSWER: No, and neither do I think that when we die the Lord is going to ask us why He should let us in.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Let me establish my position a little more clearly for you, if I may, copper. The scriptures you have referenced do apply as to 'looking back' from the position of being saved, upon those who are not. Therefore when the passage refers to the 'natural' man, it references the unregenerate sinner. But Paul was not writing about the unregenerate sinner. He wrote to Christians, about being Christians.
So, with that as a reference, some time ago I learned to 're' apply the scriptures to myself. For they do. And from there I was able to see that when Paul speaks of the natural man, he was referencing 'who we were' before Christ, and who we still are if.....
And the reason that is important is because there is in the 'regenerated' soul the potential for TWO NATURES - either, or! One is the old man and one is the new. But, just as you argue that one does not automatically repent and follow, so also by the same logic, the 'old man' is not necessarily under the Cross just because he is a regenerated believer.
And he lives by the lusts of the flesh. He literally exists thereby because the lusts are contrary to the Spirit. Therefore he refuses, through unbelief, submission to the very 'work' of the Cross, WHICH IS OUR OBEDIENCE! In other words, the lusts of the flesh effects one literally to be ALIVE to self, rather alive unto God (though he is regenerate). And the Cross, if, and only if one understands its working, makes one alive to God. If one does not understand its work, one is not alive to God experientially. (It does not mean he is not saved.)
So any reference to the 'old man', or the 'natural' man, is, by Paul, to illustrate where one who is a believer is not 'walking in the Spirit'.
I appreciate your honesty. I know where you are coming from. I am not a stranger to Christ, or anything you have said.
So we see that while the scriptures apply to the unconverted person, Paul, in writing to Christians, about Christian life, was referring to the fact that the believer is not automatically abiding in Christ just because he is saved. To use an analogy, it takes two to tango. And every speech I make points towards discovering what it means to abide. Whereas the average believer is complacent in understanding this, and will not shed the old man, preferring instead to cling to the lustful old nature, and justify it as though it cannot be under the Cross. In other words, he makes excuses. Tell it to Christ! I don't think He'll believe you.
So, that is the basis for every dissertation which I make. The old man is not dead just because you are saved. He is only dead by faith as one practices faith.
So when I speak about 'trusting one's self to Jesus', I am not speaking about the unregenerate. For Christ says that no man cometh to Him except the Spirit draw him. Who I am talking about is that regenerated believer who has no excuse, but keeps making one.
quote:
Originally posted by Copper25:
Hey Micheal, haven't talked to you in a bit. Good to have you back.
The bible says (Hebrews 4:16) "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."
True and I will say this, that man in his natural state WILL NOT come to God and love the purity of His truth.
The problem with man is that even if he were given the option of being saved, submitting to God and repent, or live in his own ways; man will naturally choose his own ways.
As it is written (Psalm 53:2-3) "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
again
1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If a tell a natural man, "ok go to Jesus and you'll be saved", or if I were to preach a 1000 sermons to any given individual who was unconverted, unless the Spirit of God moved upon their hearts to convict them, they would NEVER want nor accept the truth of Jesus, nor repent.
ezekiel 37
1) The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2) And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3) And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
This is what it is like speaking to an unconverted person. Do we know if they are going to live, be raised from the condition of being dead in their sins, and come unto Jesus in full truth? No, only God knows.
Do you see Micheal?
I am not saying that a person should just sit on the couch and wait for the Holy Spirit to hit them, but unless the Spirit moves upon them, what receiving can a person do? Can a stone heart sense the things of God? Can the carnal man treause those things that are spiritual?
Micheal, you said
quote:
A person who does not trust himself to Jesus, CANNOT be changed by grace.
But truth be told, and scripture proves it, that unless the grace of God, the woking of the Holy Spirit comes upon a man, he WILL NOT trust himself to Jesus to begin with.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Therefore 'sin' issues from the uncrucified individual, not the crucified one. And to further emphasize my point copper, it can be stated this way. Just because one is a believer doesn't mean that the heart of stone has been made fleshy. The work isn't finished just when one is saved. In other words, he hasn't 'gone all the way,' yet.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
honeryinchrist, Cain had an opinion. God rejected it!
Love, bro Mike! ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
Just havin fun with ya!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
I am saying, just to recap, that just because one is saved, even Spiritually baptized, doesn't mean one abides in Christ, or walks in the Spirit.
Paul said "I die daily." He did not mean that he was 'dying off, little by little,' daily. He meant that he 'stayed dead' daily. He was implying that to be 'under the Cross' he had to be under the Cross. Else the old nature would RULE over him, rather than the Spirit of God.
And I am not speaking of uncertainties here. This is gospel.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55kRKvK4AgM
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
oneinchist, thank you for answering,
You said that
quote:
I believe that conviction of sin comes indiscriminately to those who come under the hearing of the gospel. What people do with this conviction (heightened awareness of their sin and guilt) is up to them to decide
I got one verse that comes to mind!
1 Corinthians 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The problem with your theory is that a natural man will naturally run from a righteous God. So scriptural speaking, if what you believe is true, no one would ever, and I mean ever come to true repentance! Think about the heart of man and how wicked it is!
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
Micheal, thank you for responding
You said
quote:
But, just as you argue that one does not automatically repent and follow, so also by the same logic, the 'old man' is not necessarily under the Cross just because he is a regenerated believer.
what I was reffering to was that a nature man on his own, will not come to true repentance. He will not just say one day, ok I am repented, now let myself follow after God in purity and truth.
You logic on the second part is off if you compare it to what I just said
Get it?
you said
quote:
Paul, in writing to Christians, about Christian life, was referring to the fact that the believer is not automatically abiding in Christ just because he is saved.
I am sorry but you are wrong
In pauls writtings, notice
Example
Romans 8:10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Paul is clearly mean along these lines, If this is true about you, then you are Christ'. If it is not true about you, than you are not Christ' and not saved.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you , he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
John 3:36)He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
If you are not in Christ, then you are not saved. It is that simple
romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You said
quote:
The old man is not dead just because you are saved.
I am sorry but you are wrong
Colossians 3:9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Romans 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
You said
quote:
Just because one is a believer doesn't mean that the heart of stone has been made fleshy.
Not biblical
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
God did not say, I will put two hearts in you, so that they can duke it out.
God did not say, I will put a partial heart of flesh in you.
No, He said, "I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Micheal, make sure in your explanations, you don't contradict scripture.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Copper,
The very verse that you provide is the very reason why I would agree with you when you say...........we should examine our own hearts to see whether we are in the faith. While we may not see eye to eye on how God exercises His sovereignty in divine election, I am confident that you would agree with me that it is the presence of the spirit in our lives(not our theological beliefs on "election") that will give us the assurance that we are in Gods will, in Christ.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Colossians 3:9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Romans 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
I’m sorry you think that. Do you know what presumption is? When Paul says “seeing that ye have put off the old man,” do you presume this to mean you? Or is it true of the one Paul is speaking of? For, after all copper, you agree that these verses are true of you as a born again, baptized believer, yet you “justify” gross error as a matter of course for the believer. Well, did you read the part about “with his deeds.” For one's old deeds are fully capable of being put off. You can't have it both ways.
Then in the next verse, “that the body of sin might be destroyed, that [b] henceforth we should not serve sin. Again, you justify sin on the one hand, then turn around and quote verses like these as though you are above it. These verses are not playing around. They mean what they say.
quote:
God did not say, I will put two hearts in you, so that they can duke it out.
God did not say, I will put a partial heart of flesh in you.
You have an old nature. Unless, through faith, you overcome the old nature, it reigns over you. Therefore the verses you quoted above are ineffective. They cannot be true while your old nature is ruling over you. You have not factually “put off the old man with his deeds,” as long as you can justify him. The two possibilities are incompatible.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Not my explainations, but your understanding contradicts scripture.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
quote:
If you are not in Christ, then you are not saved. It is that simple
romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
There is
no condemnation
But there is a qualification:
To those who walk not after the flesh.
This implies "the old man."
So we can deduce that:
There is condemnation
to those who walk after the flesh, and not after the Spirit. In other words, they who walk after the old nature.
Have you not read your bible coppor? As I stated in an earlier post, people do not 'read', neither the content of my posts, and consider it, nor the Bible. For they already have a 'formulation'. And this formulation prevents them from seeing.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
This verse implies that the Spirit of life makes one free from the law of sin and death. Free! Free from! What? Sin. Therefore, if you are free from sin (and consequently death) you cannot participate in a sordid thought, or action and insist this verse to be true. If you are free, you are not bound to commit such.
"For whom the Son sets free, is free indeed."
Does that mean that he is 'condemned' to commit such, but Christ has somehow shooed him into a corner so the Father cannot see it? Or does 'free' mean free from committing?
If you read Paul, objectivly, if you have an honest heart, you will see that HE offers freedom from committing.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
This country is going to be judged. It is going to be razed to the ground. No man will survive. Why cometh this judgment? It is because all men (I am speaking of Christians here) harden their hearts. They will not see.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It is in the wording. Why would Paul say this verse this way? The righteousness of the law
is fulfilled (do we need a dictionary?)
in us.
But in whom?
In those who 'walk' not in the flesh.
And what is walking in the flesh. Is it speaking of being unsaved? Nay! It is speaking of the sinning Christian. Paul is speaking of the hard hearted Christian, the one who takes for granted the gift of God, and does not obey the faith of receiving. And that is the gift of victory, and the law of life.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yet though HE GiVETH us the victory, we still stonewall Him.
Selah!
This verse does not say that HE giveth us DEFEAT, at the hand of sin, yet HE still considers us victorious.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
I am going to say this with real simplicity.
You are ether born again, regenerated, in Jesus Christ, bearing fruit, and saved
or
You are not born again, unregenerated, not in Jesus, and barren, and not saved
it is one or the other, there is simply no inbetween
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Let's read scripture the way you read scripture:
"Whom the Son sets free, is in 'bondage' INDEED. But that's ok!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
quote:
You are ether born again, regenerated, in Jesus Christ, bearing fruit, and saved
I am going to say this very simply:
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Which of these are saved? Both!!! They who keep the word, with patience bring forth fruit to perfection. They who are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of THIS life, bring forth NO fruit to perfection. But are they saved? Dogone right! And do you want further indication that this is properly interpreted?
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Does the fact that the "Love of the Father is not in him mean he is not saved?" No! It means that he has CHOKED the word by caring for the world.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And to whom is he saying this, to a Christian who is reading, or to a sinner who is unsaved? After all, the epistles were delivered to the Churches!
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
oneinchrist, you said
quote:
The very verse that you provide is the very reason why I would agree with you when you say...........we should examine our own hearts to see whether we are in the faith.
Notice something, oneinchrist, now wether a person does this or not is a up to them, but since when can any person not go to 1 john, prayerfully look at the test, and see if they are really in the faith?
An unregenerated man claiming to be christian can try himself against the word of God
Now I should have asked for this a long time ago, but do you have scriptural proof of your claim of a person being convicted by the Holy Spirit, but then saying no? You after all did say that a person can say yes or no.
quote:
I am confident that you would agree with me that it is the presence of the spirit in our lives(not our theological beliefs on "election") that will give us the assurance that we are in Gods will, in Christ.
true
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Let's read scripture the way you read scripture:
"Whom the Son sets free, is in 'bondage' INDEED. But that's ok!
No circus avatar needed.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
You are ether born again, regenerated, in Jesus Christ, bearing fruit, and saved
I am going to say this very simply:
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
Which of these are saved? Both!!! They who keep the word, with patience bring forth fruit to perfection. They who are choked with the cares and riches and pleasures of THIS life, bring forth NO fruit to perfection. But are they saved? Dogone right! And do you want further indication that this is properly interpreted?
1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Does the fact that the "Love of the Father is not in him mean he is not saved?" No! It means that he has CHOKED the word by caring for the world.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And to whom is he saying this, to a Christian who is reading, or to a sinner who is unsaved? After all, the epistles were delivered to the Churches!
Micheal, one thing you have to realize about all the test in 1 john, If you honestly go through them prayerfully and you fail any of them you are not saved at all! Mike, do you at least understand this?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Luk 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
You see, they BRING FORTH fruit. That is the indication that they are saved. But thereafter it is qualified: They who settle for less than the whole truth, bring forth "no fruit to perfection." That is different than bringing forth 'no' fruit.
So, a matter of degree is indicated here. Either one is abiding in Christ, and bringing forth fruit to perfection, or he is dabbling in dirt, saved, but not sanctified.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
You want to go throuh the verses of 1 John one by one, coppor? He is speaking about Christians, and the condition of their relationship If this were not so, Christ would not have needed to say in Revelations, "Be hot or cold, but not lukewarm." That indicates a condition of relationship.
You want to go throuh the verses of 1 John one by one, coppor?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
quote:
So, a matter of degree is indicated here. Either one is abiding in Christ, and bringing forth fruit to perfection, or he is dabbling in dirt, saved, but not sanctified.
And sanctified means set apart for His enjoyment, or use. And what sets one apart, particular faith, or dabbling in dirt? So we can see that a believer has a choice. And what do many believers choose?
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
Let us examine the text shall we
Revelation 3
15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16) So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
The lukewarm people get rejected by Christ because they were not even His. Remember, 1 rule that is true at all times Micheal, the scripture does not contradict itself.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Coppor, why art thou so stubborn?
I know thy works!
Whose works? Is Christ talking to a sinner? Is HE speaking to those who do not know Him? After all, one is not saved by works. Therefore it necessarily implies that since works are a 'fruit' of relationship, and HE is speaking to them about their works, they are not where they should be in their relationship. How much more simply need it be explained? For sinners who are not saved do not produce works. At least, they are meaningless in the economy of God. So why would HE talk to them? Much less threaten them?
Besides, HE wouldn't tell someone that is unsaved that HE will spew him out of HIS mouth, since he was never in!!! He wouldn't even be speaking to him.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
You would think that somewhere in God's pasture that there was one with an honest heart towards God.
Degree of relationship is real!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Get the degree!
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
Bible, King James Version
Phil.1
[15] Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
[16] The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
[17] But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
[18] What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
But I say some log on to BBS boards to confuse and destroy and try to kill the truth.
To me they are but, a silly.
Tit.3
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
2Tim.2
[17] And their word will eat as doth a canker:
MH you are not a supper duper saint.
Your post are very WEAK as it matters to the elect.
Repent.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
In like manner people today claim they have Paul, Peter and John. If ye did, ye would do the works of Paul, Peter and John.
Get the degree! It matters!
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
In like manner people today claim they have Paul, Peter and John. If ye did, ye would do the works of Paul, Peter and John.
Get the degree! It matters!
Acts.4
[13] Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
15) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Coppor, why art thou so stubborn?
I know thy works!
Whose works? Is Christ talking to a sinner? Is HE speaking to those who do not know Him? After all, one is not saved by works. Therefore it necessarily implies that since works are a 'fruit' of relationship, and HE is speaking to them about their works, they are not where they should be in their relationship. How much more simply need it be explained? For sinners who are not saved do not produce works. At least, they are meaningless in the economy of God. So why would HE talk to them? Much less threaten them?
The letter is to the chuch of Laodicea, that is true
You said
quote:
Besides, HE wouldn't tell someone that is unsaved, that HE will spew them out of HIS mouth, since they were never in!!!
Are you sure about that? Look at matthew 23 and see what Jesus says to those that are not in Him. I think you will get the idea very quickly.
Do you think that Isreal in the OT was having any sort of fellowship with God when they were worshipping idols?
Amos 3:3) Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
Micheal, now this part is very important,
17) Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve , that thou mayest see.
Micheal, what did Christ mean by these four things?
And wow, people can't spell COPPER ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi Copper,
In reference to: a person being convicted by the Holy Spirit and then saying no.
First of all, being convicted means to be made aware of sinfullness or guilt. So, let me tell you that I,me,myself am a person who had said "no" to God for several years......... until 1994 when God sent another preacher my way to sting my conscience once again with the gospel message. At that point of time in my life, I finally came to a solemn admittance that my life had been an insult to the spirit of grace and that I needed to make a decision with regards to the direction I was going to go.
Do I believe that I could have continued to say "no" to God? Absolutely.......but I didnt and I am thankful to God for being patient with me and sending yet another disciple of His my way.......this time it was a disciple that did not want to give up easy. Praise God!
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
:
oneinchrist, I think I know now what you are talking about, I know some who is in this type of case.
OK, a person hear a biblical sermon. Good preaching. Now a person goes, "I need to change, BUT they are not actually motivated to change. They don't take initiative.
The thing is though about this,
Lets say you got two people
person A
person B
both ear biblical preaching
Person A burst into tears, throwing himself at the alter crying, "Lord save me, O I am a wretched man", and the other just sits in his pew and says cailmly, in an unconcerned manner, "I am a sinner"
oneinchrist, tell me something, in all honesty, look at the difference in person B and A. Why do you think person A was broken in tears and the other not even concerned?
When I speak of the Holy Spirit causing conviction, I was not refferring to a person just acknowledging that he is a sinner. You can go ask the devil if he is a sinner and he would say yes. I mean a genuine feeling of remorse that comes from the working of the Holy Spirit, that makes a person want to run to God.
oneinchrist, plainly put true repentance happens because a change has birthed in one's heart by the working of the Holy Spirit. When this truly happen's a person will not turn away and just say no.
2 Corinthians 7:10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
I speak of godly sorrow, I think you make reference to worldly sorrow. Where someone has no real drive to seek God, or where that drive to pursue God quickly slips away.
You say these two things
quote:
1. Do you think that anyone who is not elected by God will ever come to the pure unadulterated truth?
ANSWER: No, but what I will say is that I disagree with your apparent view on the manner in which God elects(exercises His sovereignty)
I believe I am entitled to my own opinion on this difficult subject.
and
quote:
3. Can a person come to true repentance apart from the convicting work of the Holy Spirit?
ANSWER: No,
So my second question is this, seeing that you made these two answers, would it surprise you that the Holy Spirit, who is God, selects those to be convicted unto repentance?
The scripture plainly says (John 6:44) "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Third, how would you describe the manner in which God elects(exercises His sovereignty)? because He has already chosen us before the foundation of the world (ref. Ephesians 1:4)
I think the question above is a major one to discuss. (this can be a deep topic rich in deepness.)
I am trying to see where you come from on your point of veiw.
oneinchrist, you got to admit something that I think we can both agree on, God is not just sitting in heaven bobbing for apples, fishing for humans aimlessly.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi again Copper,
I would like to begin by saying that I am not speaking as an authority on the scriptures. I will tell you what I believe based on how I perceive scripture and the experience that I have going about witnessing.
When speaking of true repentance, I believe that true repentance can manifest without sobbing tears or lots of outward emotion. There are individuals who acknowledge thier sin and assume full responsibility for their sin.......but do not show much outward expression.
Some answers as to why some are more emotional than others..........
--how we are raised(with the exercise of the conscience or the lack thereof)
--women tend to express more emotion than men
--carrying a heavy burden of guilt/shame
Now my opinion on "conviction of sin" in relation to "repentance"..........
I currently do not believe that "conviction of sin" causes repentance. That is a popular belief of those who hold to Calvinist theology. I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit), and that He makes man responsible for his own repentance. The differences in theology, I believe, can have very different spiritual implications(even in our witnessing). If I believed that God causes repentance, then I question why would I even need to understand what repentance is? But if I believe that God gives us good reasons to repent, then I need to understand what repentance means (the type of response God is looking for).
I hope you understand me. I am not here to convert your way of thinking.......just to let you know why I believe what I believe on this subject.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
[13] Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
The difference here wildb is that they could tell that they had been with Jesus. They didn't sound ignernt anymore.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Beautiful suggestion coppor.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
are you trying to show that if a child of God can sin once, then they are out of God's presense and can't be forgiven?
if so....
then OK micheal, hear is a question for you,
Explain Hebrews 10:26 after I give you this verse.
1 john 1:9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
I analyzed what you said (please forgive me for length of my response)
You may think I am a pain for doing this....
quote:
When speaking of true repentance, I believe that true repentance can manifest without sobbing tears or lots of outward emotion.
Some answers as to why some are more emotional than others..........
--how we are raised(with the exercise of the conscience or the lack thereof)
--women tend to express more emotion than men
--carrying a heavy burden of guilt/shame
I agree, there are cases in the book of Acts where people don't just burst into tears.
My example in general was to show the difference of one brought to repentance and the other.. not. The crying thing, does not happen every single time
quote:
I currently do not believe that "conviction of sin" causes repentance. That is a popular belief of those who hold to Calvinist theology.
I say this, someone can acknowledge their sin and know they have it, but not run to the Lord. I believe something critical is that one actual runs toward Christ, realizing their need of course, not just say, "well I sin". Scripture supports this clearly.
2 Corinthians 7:10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
You said
quote:
I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit)
I got one crictal question for you though
Look, oneinchrist at this scripture and just tell me something, Then how would you, according to you belief on this matter ever explain these verses?
8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
or
9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Remember oneinchrist, the function of book of 1 john, you are ether one or the other, but you can not be both.
quote:
I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit), and that He makes man responsible for his own repentance.
oneinchrist, please I urge you to look and meditate upon these verses and look at what you put, PLEASE! Then think about this question, would a wicked man truly want to accept and follow after a righteous God?
Genesis 6:5) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Jeremiah 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Think oneinchrist, after you meditate about this, what has changed in 1000's of years about the natural condition of man's heart! look at this as well, PLEASE! Jesus himself said this!
Mark 7
21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Answer after meditating upon these verse, this question, why do you think that many people who claim that they "accepted Jesus, truly as the head of their life", live completely carnal and deny Him with their lifestyle, the way they live, but genuinely think they are saved? Brother can you hear me?!
Now don't get me wrong, I will urge a person to run to Christ, but why do you think that people may have said that they have been "saved" (sarcastic tone) 3 times? Then in each of those times, within a matter of given time they go right back to being like the world?
After all, you said "that He makes man responsible for his own repentance."
quote:
The differences in theology, I believe, can have very different spiritual implications(even in our witnessing).
interesting ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
If I believed that God causes repentance, then I question why would I even need to understand what repentance is? But if I believe that God gives us good reasons to repent, then I need to understand what repentance means (the type of response God is looking for).
I truly ask you this. Truly a man can hear the full gospel (with repentance of course), but if there be no working wrought inside of him by God, then what is going to happen?
oneinchrist, there is a HUGE reason why it takes more than 5 minutes of working with someone conveying truth unto them. There is a reason why biblical pastors may spend hours, even nights working with someone to make sure that the working of Almighty God was been wrought in that person's heart.
quote:
I hope you understand me. I am not here to convert your way of thinking.......just to let you know why I believe what I believe on this subject.
I am sorry for being so thorough, but consider, and I mean truly consider what I said.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, MH, hope today finds you in excellent spirit. You wrote quote:
You would think that somewhere in God's pasture that there was one with an honest heart towards God.
Do you mean, "in addition to yourself" or do you not even include yourself in that procession?
I mean, I do think that there are a number of Christians who believe that God meant what He said when God said that "He would guide our steps once we were saved".
I think that just as "salvation", trusting that God "is in fact going to guide my steps after salvatin, just as He said", this latter is also only acquired BY FAITH that God meant it when He said that He would guide our steps after we were saved.
That is, how did I acquire "salvation"? I acquired it when I believed that God meant if when He wrote in the Bible that "Jesus was the Lord from heaven" and that "Jesus had died in my place", and instantly, by having FAITH that God is not a Liar and that God "spoke the truth when God said that by believing in those words I would receive eternal life, and so I HAD FAITH for salvation.
But the "guidance of our steps by the Holy Spirit" is also likewise acquired by FAITH that God meant when He said that God would "guide our steps after we are saved".
So it is NOT a matter of "doing", as MH has also said, but it is a matter of "trusting that, now that I am saved, God MUST be guiding my steps now", and as a result, BY FAITH, I STOP DOING, I stop MY OWN THINKING about what I should do at any given moment, but I now TRUST that "whatever comes up in my mind and heart, that it MUST be from God because God PROMISED that He would guide me after I was saved".
So it is not DOING, but TRUSTING that God is "really doing it", in exactly the same way that I am TRUSTING for "salvation, because GOD SAID SO.
So in that regard, the title of this Topic, instead of "Knowing more", could have been "Trusting more". Although, "trusting more" is acquired by "knowing more".
love, Eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Copper,
I am not quite sure the connection you are making between "conviction of sin" and those 1John passages. I understand that not all who come under the hearing of Gods word choose to accept it(concerning our sin) as true and reliable. God does not force any man to believe it.
In reference to "wicked mans heart" and wanting to accept and follow God...........
I believe that the Word of God has the "power" to reach deep into the soul of man, cutting between the soul and spirit. If man is still not convinced that God really loves them, then I believe it highly unlikely they will ever choose to accept and follow Him.
Sorry, I was in a hurry to work this morning. Gotta go. Keep in touch, my friend.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Greets in the name of the Lord Jesus
oneinchrist, ok, I looked over my post, I am sorry for asking a series of questions instead of making it simpler.
Nevertheless ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Let us boil this down to what this theology all breaks down to. Let us find and venture toward the heart of the truth my friend.
You said
quote:
I believe that God convicts us of sin(non-selectively) by His word and through his word(by the spirit), and that He makes man responsible for his own repentance.
I say this, everyman on Great white throne judgment day who did not come to the Lord, will be held accountable. For as it is written, (Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
but on regard to man by himself coming to repentance? No, I am sorry my friend. You and I would both agree that repentance in itself is more than just a person saying the words, "yes I believe and now I want to run toward Jesus"
Why? A change must take place, a regenerating working of the Holy Spirit.
oneinchrist, something to consider of what I said earlier,
quote:
Now don't get me wrong, I will urge a person to run to Christ, but why do you think that people may have said that they have been "saved" (sarcastic tone) 3 times? Then in each of those times, within a matter of given time they go right back to being like the world?
You don't have to answer the above question if you don't want to but I just put it here for a concept to consider for what I am about to say.
The heart in its figurative meaning represents the core of a person, that manifest in their personality, behavior, mentality, and things of the such.
Look at strongs
H3824; the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect.
Ok, this is still ( ) going to be more than a one part question. Just these two items I want you to answer if you find time. Please and thank you.
A man can say yes with his lips all he wants, but can the man make his own heart say yes?
or
Does there have to be a working of God to shift that person's will, even as to change the very nature of their mentality and heart's desires?
I leave you with this verse that is at the bottom of my some of my recent post
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Now think, brother, think!
A heart of stone vs. a heart of flesh.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
ORIGINALLY STATED BY COPPER quote:
are you trying to show that if a child of God can sin once, then they are out of God's presense and can't be forgiven?
It is a strange question coming from someone who doesn't believe that one can repent all the way from sin. Because you say (and certainly oneinchrist said) that you 'have sin' and cannot be removed out of it. Therefore one is dirty, and not washed, if one truly understands scripture. Therefore to sin, when actually already in sin is just excess of riot (1 Peter 4:4). Wherefore serveth repentance then except for the purpose of toning it down a little? But is that a cure for lukewarm relationship?
Sin, any species of sin, removes one from HIS presence. That means it removes one from communing. It stops one from supping (Rev 3:20). It prevents the love of the Father from issuing through the 'believer' (1John 2:15). It doesn't mean one is not saved. It means that one is on a lower plane, where scripture says that it is unacceptable for a Christian to be. All Paul ever said was that.
The issue is not whether one 'cannot' repent. The issue being addressed by the authors of the epistles is the fallacy of believing that one cannot repent - all the way! Yet the one in particular feels if he sins something kindof obvious, he can repent. He can, but reality is that he 'abides still, in' sin, and the one is fooling himself when he thinks he is repenting from sin if all he does is to turn from something in particular which comes to his attention.
He still abides in sin. Therefore what is important is that fellowship is broken. And what he has done in repenting of a particular known sin, is to remain on the same plane. He is still on a plane of sin, but has perhaps resisted the slippery slope of more gross sin, which he is able to perceive will as a matter of fact, move him further from God. Yet he is unable to see that he is removed from God by nature of degree, for he refuses to repent until he is 'in' God's grace. After all, only then will he see where he WAS at.
It is kindof a situation wherein one thinks he is in good with God, but in reality he is full of compromise. Yet he doesn't see it. It is like if one were to look at a scale from one to ten, one being saved, and ten being in communion with Christ, he would find, to his surprise that he was at a three, or four. For 'the sin' (general) bumps him down five or six notches. And he cannot practice the presence of God (Brother Lawrence, I think) and practice the general sin at the same time.
The point is, people are complacent where they are and do the wrong things to make up for it.
This is why scripture says, "whatsoever doth make manifest is light." (Eph 5:13) That is why scripture says:
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
If you are invited to go swimming and you get your ankles wet, or your knees, while others are in over their heads having fun in deep water, you are there, but you are not sharing with them. You are distant. You are 'preserving' yourself for fear of committing, or abandoning youself to have fun with the others.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Hello Micheal, greets in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
you said
quote:
Sin, any species of sin, removes one from HIS presence. That means it removes one from communing. It stops one from supping (Rev 3:20). It prevents the love of the Father from issuing through the 'believer' (1John 2:15). It doesn't mean one is not saved.
15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
If in your life, the world is center stage of you life, and you only go to church on Sunday, then forsake God, not aknowledging Him throughout the rest of the week, then you are not saved and you are currently lost because you deny Him with your lifestyle.
This is a proper type of application of 1 john 2:15.
You said
quote:
He still abides in sin. Therefore what is important is that fellowship is broken. And what he has done in repenting of a particular known sin, is to remain on the same plane. He is still on a plane of sin, but has perhaps resisted the slippery slope of more gross sin, which he is able to perceive will as a matter of fact, move him further from God.
Can you show me this whole plane idea in the bible?
You said
quote:
Yet he is unable to see that he is removed from God by nature of degree, for he refuses to repent until he is 'in' God's grace. After all, only then will he see where he WAS at.
can you you show me this "removed from God by nature of degree" idea in scripture?
You said
quote:
for he refuses to repent until he is 'in' God's grace.
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a believer causing him to want to repent of a committed sin.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
If in your life, the world is center stage of you life, and you only go to church on Sunday, then forsake God, not aknowledging Him throughout the rest of the week, then you are not saved and you are currently lost because you deny Him with your lifestyle.
Well, that is a good nursery school interpretation. I'll give credit here.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
In fact, I said it this way in the previous post: You are supposed to commune with your Father without interruption. It is similar to what you said, but the direction it points to is relationship with the Father, and not the church. So it is well to consider that one can so-called 'live right', seven days a week, without really being in the 'ordained' relationship with the Father. (One can even go to church in this condition.) The reason is that so many 'things' which seem good of themself, and the DOING thereof, take the place of proper relationship. At such point people become blind to what is written in scripture for thinking they are 'doing' the right things. But are the things they are doing, truly bringing them closer to Christ? Moreover they are in denial about relationship. Defensive even.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
Can you show me this whole plane idea in the bible?
You cannot show someone who will not see.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a believer causing him to want to repent of a committed sin.
--------------------
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Yes, the Holy Spirit will convict. But the hearer will harden his heart. Then he will claim verses like:
Ezekiel 36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
In this he seems to himself to have justified his position. But not with God. Maybe before men.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us [as we do with the Father]: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be FULL.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[Just remember that I just said you are to have fellowship with the Father as we do. So,]
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus. Just because one is saved doesn’t mean he is experiencing that changing power to the degree THAT IT IS PROVIDED! That one is in ‘darkness’ compared to where he is called to be.]
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[If we are in the light…… we have? Fellowship! And it is possible because the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Otherwise we are in that ‘darkness’ described above. This is absolute, therefore, anything beneath this is on a plane of sin.]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[Before we can come to the point of repentance, we have to confess that we have sin. Obviously we cannot repent from ‘not’ having sin. And,]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[ALL!]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
[But HE will cleans us from ALL, if we believe Him about this.]
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[And what is keeping the commandments? It is abiding in Him without sinning. No simpler way may it be said.]
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[Nuff said! But people still insist they are knowing Him. But John points out that they are not. Again, this is about the degree of fellowship, not whether one is actually saved. But in not keepething the commandments, he is not truthful about whether he is in the standing that God approves of.]
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[But he who keeps the word has this witness within him, that he ‘knows’ he is “IN’ Him. For,]
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[And here is a simple test. He that saith he is in the light, but if pressed would have to confess he hates some brother, is in darkness now. He therefore has not the relationship he is called into. For the relationship, if proper, will leave no room to hate the brother.] I mean, your first clue that you are not 'keeping' the commandments is the fact that you have aught against your brother. For you will not have aught if you are abiding in the commandments.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What is John saying here? Is he saying that the one is not a Christian? He is not! He is saying that the one is not being truthful about where he stands with God. In fact, he may not perceive that he is not where he should be. But he may justify it because he is 'trying'. But the Holy Spirit does convict. Yet, as stated, he rationalizes it because he is trying.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Greetings in the name of Jesu Christ
Micheal, some of you interpretations are off and are not accurate.
quote:
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus. Just because one is saved doesn’t mean he is experiencing that changing power to the degree THAT IT IS PROVIDED! That one is in ‘darkness’ compared to where he is called to be.]
This whole part for example is errouneous simply
You said, "What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus"
Micheal, plainly put, if someone is walking in darkness, then they have a lifestyle that denies Christ, even though they say that they know him. These type of people who walk in darkness are not really saved, nor cleansed by Jesus blood.
You need to be careful if you ever were to teach a soul, because frankly, some of the things you say are just plain false. I really worry about you. I hope you seek the Lord more, and that His Spirit lead you.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi again Copper,
Once again, I will repeat that I am not speaking as an authority on the scriptures, but I am sharing with you the way in which I perceive the scriptures in regards to the matter of "conviction of sin".
You had asked me if I could provide scripture support of the occurrence of "conviction of sin" with a "no" answer. I believe that Acts 2 vs. 37-41 shows us an example of just that.......
37 Now when they heard this, they were PRICKED IN THEIR HEART, and said unto Peter.......
(skip to vs. 41)
41 Then THEY THAT GLADLY ACCEPTED HIS WORD were baptized
Now, I think that I understand some of the Reformed theology a little better. It appears to me that they equate "conviction of sin" with "quickened by the spirit". Personally, I believe that "conviction of sin" and "quickened by the spirit" are two distinct things. I believe that "conviction of sin" is a non-selective process that happens when individuals come under the hearing of the word of God; whereas I believe that "quickening by the spirit" is the selective process whereby man is entrusted with the Holy Ghost, but not until after he has responded favorably in Gods eyes.
Now for those who hold to the doctrine of the "total depravity of man" , they do not believe that man even has the ability to respond favorably. While I agree that man does not have the ability to change his nature from that of being dead in sin to being alive(spiritually), I disagree with the theology of man being unable to respond favorably. I believe that man has the intrinsic God-given ability , to be able to understand the truth when it is presented to him and make a decision regarding it......such as rejecting it or accepting it as true and reliable, repenting of sin, and turning to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
You were proposing(I think) that a lack of true conversions may be explained by a lack of sin conviction. Personally, I think theres lots of reasons why there are not true conversions.......but not because God does not want to save them, or because His Word is not able to convict(bring awareness of sinfullness,guilt).
Do people turn to Christ through effective preaching? yes!
Can preachers be effective without the help of the Holy Ghost?.....absolutely not!
The Holy Ghost is for our sanctification to make us more like Jesus, no not just for the sake of being more like Jesus, but for the sake of being more like Jesus to reach the lost. The Holy Spirit will teach us humility, patience, love, longsuffering, etc. so that we may see a harvest(of souls)all in Gods timing.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hello, oneinchrst, if I may comment on two of your paragraphs above, you wrote quote:
Personally, I believe that "conviction of sin" and "quickened by the spirit" are two distinct things.
I believe that "conviction of sin" is a non-selective process that happens when individuals come under the hearing of the word of God; whereas I believe that "quickening by the spirit" is the selective process whereby man is entrusted with the Holy Ghost, but not until after he has responded favorably in Gods eyes.
Yes, I agree with you ... in my opinion what happens when an unsaved individual HEARS the Word of God, is that the words of the Word of God are SPIRIT and they are LIFE (zoe life, divine life):
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quicken; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak to you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Now, when Adam and Eve first sinned, they began to run their lives from the soul position, and IGNORED their spirit of man, until, after hundreds and hundreds of years of operating their lives from their SOUL position, unsaved men NO LONGER KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT THEIR SPIRIT or even that they HAVE a spirit.
So what happens to an unsaved individual when he HEARS the Word of God, whose words are SPIRIT, is that the SPIRIT words do not speak to his SOUL but speak to his SPIRIT and so his SPIRIT is QUICKENED for the first time since Adam and Eve sinned, as in, "what is this?"
So the words of God in the Bible quicken, make alive again, the spirit of man which the unsaved individual did not even know he had.
To repeat now what you said, oneinchrst quote:
I believe that "conviction of sin" is a non-selective process that happens when individuals come under the hearing of the word of God ...
Yes, all that happens when an individual hears the Word of God is that their spirit is rediscovered and quickened by these words. But such a man is NOT saved yet, and only "is discovering his spirit for now".
oneinchrist, you then continued quote:
Now for those who hold to the doctrine of the "total depravity of man" , they do not believe that man even has the ability to respond favorably.
While I agree that man does not have the ability to change his nature from that of being dead in sin to being alive (spiritually), I disagree with the theology of man being unable to respond favorably.
I believe that man has the intrinsic God-given ability , to be able to understand the truth when it is presented to him and make a decision regarding it......such as rejecting it or accepting it as true and reliable, repenting of sin, and turning to Christ for forgiveness and sanctification.
Once a man's spirit is quickened by the Word of God, then man, as the soul, can choose to save himself or not by repenting from running his life by the soul and man can again choose to live his life by the spirit, as it was sin the garden of Eden before Adam and Eve sinned.
The Word of God WAKES him up to the fact that he has been living a hopelessly failed life by trying to run his life from the soul level, and he repents from doing that and accepts that Jesus died for all the sins stupidly committed during that "soul rule", and he agrees to turn again to his own spirit for counsel and to the Counsel of the Holy Spirit which is now again available to him, and thus the man begins to run his life again according to his original blueprint from the Manufacturer: the Spirit of God to the spirit of man, the spirit of man to the soul, and the soul to the body:
1 Thessalonians 5
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
When an unsaved man's spirit is stirred by the spirit words of the Word of God, then man becomes aware of what he has done and can repent of it and turn again to God's original blueprint of how a man ought to live his life, by the spirit, and not by the soul.
love, Eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Good morning Eden,
My dear friend in the Lord, yes, I agree with you that there is a "quickening" that transpires when one comes under the hearing of the word of God. I never thought of it in those terms before, but I believe in the power of the truth.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Honestly, this is a good discussion.
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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simply put
if there is conviction
A man can say yes to God with his lips, yet say no with his heart.
The yes of the heart is from God's working.
there, plain simplicity.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Copper,
I agree that we can say "yes" with our lips, but "no" with our hearts. We may be able to fool each other, but not God.
Yes, it is true!............ that even though we may say "yes" to God with our hearts, our boast is to be in the Lord Who loved us first and established the faith by which we have eternal life.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on
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Just a couple of thoughts. It was said that when a person hears the word and "realizes how stupid they were" could mislead some. If you are not aware of the word, then how could you be stupid about it?
Quickeneth means: To giveth life to, not to giveth life again. In John 6:63 Jesus is talking about his spirit, he is talking about communion, he is talking about the word which is of his spirit and which is life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth (gives life to)the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
So, go back to verse 52 and read to verse 63.
Now read John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
Micheal, plainly put, if someone is walking in darkness, then they have a lifestyle that denies Christ, even though they say that they know him. These type of people who walk in darkness are not really saved, nor cleansed by Jesus blood.
As I recall I stated that the scriptures are written to believers, about believers. I stated that they 'reapply'. And if one wants to discover HE who is within them, he would do well to reapply them to himself, and not to others.
Not as though I didn't say this already in this conversation, but the reason Paul said, for example: "Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith," was to encourage that one to whom he was speaking, to look to see if he was where he was supposed to be in relationship. That isn't a statement issued to unbelievers for their consumption, for such to discover whether they are 'saved' or not. After all, they wouldn't likely be reading the scriptures. And they already know, if it comes down to it, that they are not. Therefore it is clearly worded as a call to examine one's self, in the light of Paul's very own words, explicitly, to see if one fits the description which he puts forth about the Christian life.
You would do well not to suppose yourself to know so much, and to humble yourself to listen.
Darkness, as described by John and Paul is a condition of unbelief that afflicts believers. It is not the darkness of those who do not know Christ. It is more like a condition of malnourishmen of the believer, as if one were to compare with third world conditions of starvation. It is a coming short of the nourishment goal.
I sometimes tell it like this. You will often hear of some who mention that the clouds are hiding His face. For months they may experience, or endure, not feeling like Christians, though they know they are saved. Yet there is no 'hilltop' relationship - only the valley. There is only doubt, and concern, and the tough questions like, "am I really saved." Well, this is not a condition that God the Father ordains. It is a rude condition which many a beliver does, or has experienced in his walk, which the Father doesn't sanction. It is not a test. It is not His purpose that the saint should experience this. This is a dark place. It is a place where one does not feel secure in his faith.
Neither is it uncommon.
So then come those who are trying to console someone while in this condition, who say, "Well, it is not based on feelings." They are correct. Indeed, it is not. But that is only half right. God's word is the standard. The facts in God's word are the all important markers we are to go by. We accept the facts and go with them. However those trying to console, themselves do not know that the facts indicate that HE didn't create us to suffer His face being hidden by the clouds. Therefore they don't know how to console.
Thanks for your concern, but it is misplaced. There is a condition of the believer called 'walking in the flesh'. And there is a condition called 'walking in the Spirit'. Walking in the Spirit doesn't happen just because. It is a product of faith. And walking in the flesh is clearly a compromise.
And people refuse to see that they are not confined to it. But that is where the clouds 'hide' HIS face - not so when walking in the Spirit.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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If the believer necessarily has an 'evil' heart; if the believer only has a wicked heart which cannot be otherwise, and God just somehow overlooks it, then this would be a stupid thing to say, would it not?
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
This whole part for example is errouneous simply
You said, "What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus"
If you read at the bottom where he describes one's 'hating' his brother, John clearly says that the one so doing is "IN DARKNESS." That does not imply that he is not saved. However, it implies that he is in darkness compared to where he should be. So, "darkness" is a state, or condition of the saved Christian, wherein he is not living HOLY. He may attend church. He may even confess Christ, however, he is not in the state of relationship he is called to.
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us [as we do with the Father]: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be FULL.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[Just remember that I just said you are to have fellowship with the Father as we do. So,]
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness [in the flesh], we lie, and do not the truth:
[What is darkness? It is unbelief in the changing power of Christ Jesus. Just because one is saved doesn’t mean he is experiencing that changing power to the degree THAT IT IS PROVIDED! The one will be found to be in ‘darkness’ compared to where he is called to be.]
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
[If we are in the light as HE is…… we have? Fellowship! Otherwise the clouds hide HIS face. But it is possible to rise above the clouds because the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Otherwise we are in that ‘darkness’ described above because, quite simply, the blood is not cleansing from that sin.]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[Before we can come to the point of repentance, we have to confess that we have sin. Obviously we cannot repent from ‘not’ having sin. And,]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[ALL!]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
[But HE will cleans us from ALL, if we believe Him about this.]
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[And what is keeping the commandments? It is abiding in Him without sinning. No simpler way may it be said.]
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[This doesn't mean he is not saved. What John is saying here, albeit extremely boldly is that 'He that says he knows Him, is kidding himself. Being saved and knowing Him is not exactly the same. When you know someone, you understand him.]
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[But he who keeps the word has this witness within him, that he ‘knows’ he is “IN’ Him. For,]
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
For example:
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
This is intentionally leading somewhere. John is making a point about the difference between relationship, and relationship. So it is like he is saying with his hand on his hip, and his finger pointed, "you got saved, but there is more you need to understand."
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
People take this verse to mean, "I have sin. I have sin. It can't be gotten rid of. I have sin." But they think it can be hidden..... Duh!
One has to understand the posture of John in saying this. It is positional. In other words, before we 'approach' Him, we have to be mindful of the fact that we have sin. But, having approached Him, the result should be that we are cleansed. Else, people who believe otherwise might as well keep this verse, and chapter seven of Romans, and throw the rest of the bible away. But Romans does not say that we are piglets who cannot be cleansed, who must 'cope' with the fact. In fact, Romans says the opposite, as do these books of John, as well as the rest of scripture.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
But Romans does not say that we are piglets who cannot be cleansed, who must 'cope' with the fact. In fact, Romans says the opposite, as do these books of John, as well as the rest of scripture.
Well, actually we may still be piglets who cannot be cleansed, but thank God, we are UNDER the mercy seat of Christ which is sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.
As long as we have the mercy seat on us, when God looks at us, He does not count or measure or consider our sinful selves underneath, but God says, "Oh, I see that this sinner has asked that Jesus be his Substitute" and as a result, when God sees the blood of Jesus, God will pass over:
Exodus 12:13
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where you are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you ...
When the Israelites inside the houses in Egypt by faith put the blood on the lintels of the door OUTSIDE the house, when the death angel came by, when He saw the blood, He passed over.
He did not first stop at each house to SEE WHO WAS INSIDE and whether everyone was DESERVING of being PASSED BY.
No, indeed, there were a lot of dirty little piglets inside, but all the piglets, or at leat the majority of the piglets, in the house had ENOUGH FAITH in the word of God TO PUT BLOOD on the lintels, and on the basis of THE BLOOD ALONE the death angels passed by.
Likewise we who are under the mercy seat sprinkled with the blood of Jesus are mostly still dirty little piglets who have said to God, "I accept Jesus as my Substitute", and so thanks be to God, when "God sees the blood of Jesus on us, He WILL pass over", withour first considering whether the person who has "put the blood of Jesus" on him is worthy or not or dirty or not. If they have "put the blood on the lintels of their body house", the death angel WILL pass over, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. So there will be a lot of dirty little piglets underneath ... until they are glorified...
love, Eden
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Greetings micheal in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
darkness = unbelief, yes indeed, because they don't truly follow after the truth, nor after the Lord who is the turth, you are indeed right on that regaurd.
And what I was saying is this
one that walks in darkness according to 1John 1:6-7, is that this and every other test in this book, if one fails any of them, they are not saved but rather are lost.
Look at the test Micheal
If one, walks in darkness, if one does not have sensitivity to sin and confessing their sin, if one does not keep the commandments of God, if one is in habitual sin, if one loves the world, if one hates his brother, then that person IS lost and is NOT saved.
That is my point
Michael, watch this and learn,
all of the test are upon the same type application, saved verse unsaved.
John 8:44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
now
1 john 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
If you do not truth, then how on earth can you abide in it? Let us now look at who else does not abide in truth shall we? John 8:44) "He(The devil!) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth"
test 2
1 john 1:8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
guess who the truth is also not in. "He (the devil!) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him"
test 3
1 john 2:4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
guess who the truth is also not in. "He (the devil!) was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him"
Test 4
1 John 2:9) He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1 John 2:11)But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Michael, now here is a good question for you to think about, Jesus is light, ALL true believers are the "children of light", so how on earth can a child of God walk in darkness?
Can a light walk on the path of darkness , or can darkness walk on the path of light? I think not. Think Michael!
Test 5
1 john 2
15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
If you are living a life loving the lust of the flesh, loving the pride of life, loving the lust of the eyes, then how on earth can you ever be having a relationship with God?
Those that live following after the lust of the flesh, clearly, are not saved! Aren't we as "children of God" also, the spiritual children
Romans 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
A true child of God will not live a life characterized by walking in the flesh.
As far as the pride of life. When ever people are lifted up with pride in the bible, they do not follow after the ways of God!
Matthew 5:3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. This is a must, something that will be a characteristic of a true child of God.
As for the others who are not children of God?
Proverbs 16:18) Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. The children of pride, the children of satan.
Now Michael, you said
these two examples
quote:
For example:
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
This is intentionally leading somewhere. John is making a point about the difference between relationship, and relationship. So it is like he is saying with his hand on his hip, and his finger pointed, "you got saved, but there is more you need to understand."
quote:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[This doesn't mean he is not saved. What John is saying here, albeit extremely boldly is that 'He that says he knows Him, is kidding himself. Being saved and knowing Him is not exactly the same. When you know someone, you understand him.]
Michael, you err grievously, very... very grievously in your interpretation!
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Copper,
I agree that we can say "yes" with our lips, but "no" with our hearts. We may be able to fool each other, but not God.
Yes, it is true!............ that even though we may say "yes" to God with our hearts, our boast is to be in the Lord Who loved us first and established the faith by which we have eternal life.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Now you got it my friend!
1 John 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.
Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on
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Eden...did my post to you get lost or missed ?
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Keeper wrote quote:
Eden...did my post to you get lost or missed?
Lots of posts get "lost" or missed or go unanswered. Such is the abundant life on the bbs.
love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
Well, actually we may still be piglets who cannot be cleansed, but thank God, we are UNDER the mercy seat of Christ which is sprinkled by the blood of Jesus.
Eden, show me in scripture. For you cannot have fellowship with the Father as a piglett. You are cut off. The only hope of fellowship with the Father is by the change which Jesus paid for you to have, as you place your faith in Him. If, by faith that change is not in effect, you are in doubt. Then you are a piglett. For after all, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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coppor: That tells me what you think. Also what I see, is that you have a premise, a preconception, as does most of the professing church. And you read scripture to reinforce your premise. It is not how it is supposed to work. Moreover, you have above confused verses which apply to different things, and used them together in the same paragraph. It is not at all convincing. In fact, it is distasteful.
quote:
Michael, you err grievously, very... very grievously in your interpretation!
It only takes one scripture coppor, to see the meaning. 'ONE!' I know that people take verses out of context oftentimes, using it to support some premise. However, let us understand that one scripture can sometimes stand alone and still speak volumes. In fact, your own words can be used to illustrate the TRUTH which you resist. Try this:
quote:
If one, walks in darkness, if one does not have sensitivity to sin and confessing their sin, if one does not keep the commandments of God, if one is in habitual sin, if one loves the world, if one hates his brother, then that person IS lost and is NOT saved.
You said, "if one hates his brother." What brother do you suppose John is referring to? He is referring to his 'Christian' brother, no less. Then how is he unsaved, if the man being referred to is his 'Christian' brother. Can an unsaved man have a Christian brother? Not in the Biblical sense. At least, he is not preaching to someone whose 'brother' got saved, yet he himself didn't.
How many Christian brothers "of yours" are NOT Christian? They are simply unbelievers if they are not saved. Therefore they cannot be referred to as brothers. So John is talking about the CONDITION of the believer who IS saved to make a point about the one's sinful state. The admonishment is for the actual Christian believer who 'hates' his Christian brother. That is no reference to saved vs. unsaved. And you are hopeless to talk to since you cannot see that.
You see what you want to see, sopper, instead of letting scripture guide you in what to see. You are dishonest with yourself, and therefore with others. You are dishonest about what HE requires, or you are misinformed. It is tragic. Anyone with an honest heart can see that what is stated above is true. If he or she cannot, it means trouble.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever shall teach something that is untrue shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. See! Even here it does not say that the one teaching the untruth is unsaved. For it refers to him as the 'least' in the Kingdom of heaven. That is wholly different than saying, "it shall be said of him that the devil is his father."
Duh!
I hope you'll get a life. I hate to be blunt. You need one.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Michael Harrison wrote quote:
Eden, show me in scripture. For you cannot have fellowship with the Father as a piglet. You are cut off. The only hope of fellowship with the Father is by the change which Jesus paid for you to have, as you place your faith in Him. If, by faith that change is not in effect, you are in doubt. Then you are a piglet. For after all, "Without faith it is impossible to please God."
I already showed you what happened in the land of Goshen with the Israelites, how the death angel passed over when he saw the blood.
There must have been a lot of dirty little piglets in each house and yet God did not even bother to knock on the door and say, "Steinberg, you need to come out, you're too dirty, you can't be under the blood that's on the outside of the house, sorry, you gotta come out".
No, not at all. When the death angel of God saw the blood, the death angel was instructed to "pass over". The blood of the slain lamb saved all the piglets in the house, because the piglets in the house had FAITH that when God said that He would pass over IF God saw the blood, that God MEANT WHAT HE SAID,thank you very much...
To me, Israel in Egypt was a micro display of what now are the Christians (Israel) and the world (Egypt). It will be likewise with us. When God sees the blood of Jesus on the lintels of OUR house (meaning this "tent" or body), God will simply PASS OVER, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, and God does NOT STOP and say to me, "Eden, you need to come out from under the blood of Jesus, you are still a very dirty little piglet".
NO. As in the land of Goshen which is our prototype and figure, God will NOT STOP when God sees the blood, HE WILL PASS OVER, no matter what the current condition of the person is under the blood. There were lots of piglets in the house in the land of Goshen, and HERE IS A GREATER THAN MOSES. If God did it for them, He will surely do it for us.
love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
eden, it is so simple quote:
Likewise we who are under the mercy seat sprinkled with the blood of Jesus are mostly still dirty little piglets who have said to God, "I accept Jesus as my Substitute", and so thanks be to God, when "God sees the blood of Jesus on us, He WILL pass over",
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
In order to sin, one must be sanctified. How so? If one is as a piglett, one is 'already' in sin. If he is already sinning - he - already - is. How can the Apostle write to 'sin not' if one already is? First he has to stop. (I'll stop there so as not to confuse you.)
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we [are] keep[ing] his commandments.
How so? Because the only way that this could happen is when we are KNOWING Him. For that is the result: the proof. If, says the verse, we know Him as we are called to, we will find that we are keeping the commandments. Otherwise we are not knowing Him, and all we are serving in our Christian life is our 'conception' of Him. There is a difference between knowing someone, and simply agreeing that we are knowing someone. We are to stop fooling ourselves, and know Him.
Can one be saved and not know Him? Yes. Absolutely! Because HE says if you believe, you will be saved. But if you do not cultivate the relationship, you are doing something else. Let me tell you, it doesn't matter what. If you are doing something else, you are missing the point.
I mean, we know Him when we are saved. Thereafter we substitute something else. We subsist on our memory thereafter, or some 'experience'. That however is in the past. He is looking at the now. Do you know Him? Are, you knowing Him? If so, then you will find that you are keeping the commandments. You are delivered from sin (not however from sinning. You can sin anytime you want.)
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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John makes this clear:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What truth? He is lying about the condition of his walk with God. For you can be saved, and still sin. He says:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
So sinning doesn't terminate one's salvation, at least, in my opinion, anytime soon. I think it eventually will, or can if one continues to harden his heart.
So, this verse is talking about RESULTS!
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
John is talking about the RESULTS of knowing Him, whereas, the average believer thinks this verse is telling him something to do!
You cannot DO the commandments!!! But the RESULT of knowing Him should be that you keep the commandments. You can never 'do' them. YOU NEEDN'T TRY! But this is GRACE. The RESULT of knowing Him is that you keep the commandments. So, look at yourself. What is the RESULT? Then are you knowing Him? Not, are you saved. Are you knowing Him? You can, according to this author, tell by the results!!!!
Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on
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Eden, that was real nice of you to just say that lots of posts go unnoticed or not read. Especially when I said it was to you. Poot!
I guess it was asking too much of you.
Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on
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Eden... the post I was referring to was on 6/11 at 5:43 pm. Your scripture that you used was completely out of context.
I also noticed that you used in a post to MH as I skimmed through Ex 12:13 also taken out of context. In other words, the blood on the posts represented the Later blood of Christ but not to cause God the Father to look the other way, you just made that up. If Jesus removed the record of sins why does God need to look away. That is a story with much elastic. Just keep it simple.
When do we know if you are going to read our posts or not? Why bother if you don't feel they are worthy? Poot !
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Keeper wrote quote:
Eden... the post I was referring to was on 6/11 at 5:43 pm. Your scripture that you used was completely out of context.
Could be out of context, but very unlikely. And I have no intention of going back there to see what you are talking about.
Keeper continued quote:
I also noticed that you used in a post to MH as I skimmed through Ex 12:13 also taken out of context.
In other words, the blood on the posts represented the Later blood of Christ but not to cause God the Father to look the other way, you just made that up. If Jesus removed the record of sins why does God need to look away.
The blood on the doorposts of the faithful Israelites
in the land of Goshen was NOT ONLY a figure of the later blood of Christ (although it was that too), but the blood on the doorposts was very efficatious for the Israelites who were in the house. It wasn't just a symbol, it actually saved their lives if by faith they went out there and put the blood on the doorposts, and then they went back in hoping for the best.
God knows all the sins that they who are in the house have committed, but God does not consider it on this midnight, having instructed the death angel to look for only one thing: "if there is blood on the doorposts which are on the outside of the house, then pass over that house and kill no one there"; that is the Biblical record:
Exodus 12:13
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where you are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
Let's say that there were 10 Israelites to a same family in each house of the Israelites in the land of Goshen, and they had all gone outside to put the blood on the lintels and then they all went back inside and waited.
Now, Keeper, you know very well that among those 10 Israelites in each household there must have been at least 5 Israelites in each household who had dealt "somewhat unsavory " in their life's dealings, and as such, they were not deserving to be passed over by this blood that they put on the outside of the house.
God of course knew full well who was in each house and what they had done in their lives, so did God look the other way? Not entirely. A precious lamb did die for the sins of each household.
And in this case, God accounted that lamb worthy enough to suffice for the sins of each household, because the innocent slain lamb would also serve as a figure that His innocent Son Jesus, the Lamb of God, would later die for us.
So a precious lamb did die for each household in the land of Goshen, and additionally, God did not "look the other way", but God "forgave them because of the little lamb":
Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and will not remember your sins.
And the proof is in the pudding; God called no one by name to come outside their house in the land of Goshen, to say "I'm sorry, you are not worthy that I should pass over you; YOU need to pay for your sins".
No, if the sinners in each household HAD THE FAITH to put the blood on the outside of their doors, they were SAVED THEREBY, no matter WHO was inside the house.
Keeper continued quote:
When do we know if you are going to read our posts or not?
You will NEVER know if I have (or if anyone else has) read your posts unless I or someone else comments on them.
Keeper finished with quote:
Why bother if you don't feel they are worthy? Poot!
It has nothing to do with whether I think your posts (or anyone's posts) are worthy or not ... you have no idea how anyone's post affects me.
I'm sure that Carol Swenson's "Secrets Of The Abundant Life" is WORTHY, but there are lots of things in life that are WORTHY, so that does not mean that I'm going to read such a long dissertation on the "Secrets Of The Abundant Life".
I'm a free agent and I can do what I want, just like you. There is no Profile Police to mandate that "so and so reads this!!!!" I can do what I want and you can do what you want. I don't HAVE to read ANYTHING if I don't feel like it.
I do tend to read shorter Topics, but not long ones. In a long Topic, I may try to find one paragraph or a group of sentences that I disagree with, and comment on that, since that's about all I have time and interest for ... hey, I did not know that I HAD to read everything, Keeper?
But me using scriptures out of context? Never!!!
love, Eden
Posted by Copper25 (Member # 7464) on
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Michael, I am going to put this real simple, look at my last post 12 June, 2009 06:44 AM, if I have spoken error, then quote the error and speak because my last post clearly shows that they that fail the test of 1 john, are clearly not God's children, neither have they known God.
You said quote:
Can one be saved and not know Him? Yes. Absolutely! Because HE says if you believe, you will be saved.
Not biblical
Once again Michael, a grievous error in your speaking.
Michael, the phrase "know someone" in the bible many times means to have a deep or intimate relationship with that person.
John 14:7) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
You can't have dwelling in you, the Holy Spirit if you know not Him. If you have not received the Spirit of Christ, you have not known Christ at all! If you have received the Spirit of Christ, then you know Him.
again
John 10:14) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 10:27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
Lastly to address is this, you said
quote:
Because HE says if you believe, you will be saved.
Remember Michael, because God does not contradict Himself, the scripture can't contradict itself.
Matthew 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
I don't care how much someone were to confess Jesus Christ as Lord with their tongue, if there is no evidence of a working of God, no evidence of the supernatural regenerating work of the Holy Spirt upon that person, no fruitfulness manifested in their life at all, then that person is still lost.
With love in Christ,
Daniel
Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on
:
EDEN; When I said your scriptures were out of context you responded "Could be out of context, not very likely. And I have no intention of going back there to see what you are talking about." Arrogance at it's finest.
If you choose to use scripture with no responsibility or concern as to the truth of it there is something wrong in that picture. Your use of Ex 12:13 is so far off from what you claim that you should care. You and MH are doing this all the time.
If you do not care if the others here respond to you or read your posts and the other way around then why are you here? I find conversation with you absolutely worthless.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
quote:
You can't have dwelling in you, the Holy Spirit if you know not Him. If you have not received the Spirit of Christ, you have not known Christ at all! If you have received the Spirit of Christ, then you know Him.
Well, one who claims to know Him, does this sound like 'knowing Him?'
Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
First of all, to whom is this written? It is important because it is written to Christians. It is an admonishment for them not to cort the world. There is a reason he tells them this, because if they cort the world, they are not "deep," and "intimate" with God.
And tell me, does it sound like knowing Him?
If your wife, or someone's, likes to talk about you (or hers), but always gets it wrong, does she 'know' you? Indeed, she does 'know you'. She lives and hangs around you. She is married to you. She has to be somewhat familiar with something about you. But maybe she gets it wrong overall because she doesn't try. Or maybe she is preoccupied with 'self-interests' which limit her ability to 'surrender' to truly knowing you. (Maybe she doesn't like you.) So, in the same vein in the case of this scripture by James, if one is friends with the world, is he or she 'knowing Him?' Is this not what, after all, James is saying? It is! And he is saying it to a bunch of people who no doubt go around saying that they 'know Him.' He rebukes them. After all, if you know someone, and if you love someone, you do not go around 'doing' the opposite of what is expected by the other, while saying you know that person. For in fact, that person may deny he or she knows you if it comes down to it. I think that can be found in scripture also.
We are called to know Him to the whole extent that it is possible on this side of the curtain. And here is a qualifier to reveal whether we do or not so that we will not be in the dark about this:
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
As I said, if you look at results in your own life (never mind what others say), you know that you are knowing Him by this qualification. If you are deceiving yourself about knowing Him, it will be evident by the failure to keep these things, for:
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Is he talking about the difference between one's being saved or not being saved? Not at all! He is discussing the particular situation the beilever is in which indicates the quality of the relationship. After all, no man who is unsaved even bothers to 'keep' the commandments. What would be the reason? So the author is boldly indicating that one who claims to be saved is not necessarily 'knowing' Him as he should if the results are not that he is realizing the keeping of the Commandments. It is the qualifier which should cause us to consider!!! So, do you pass, or fail?
So, here again, by your very own words you betray yourself:
quote:
Michael, the phrase "know someone" in the bible many times means to have a deep or intimate relationship with that person.
Is it "deep," or "intimate" to neglect relationship. If one neglects the relationship will he or she be 'properly' informed about that relationship? But there will be relationship to speak of. But what is the quality of it?
quote:
John 14:7) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Just because the Spirit is abiding in you doesn't mean that you are 'abiding' in Him. It takes two. That is the point of all of these verses, not whether one is saved or not. Many a saved person is not walking the walk, even if he means well. And verses like this one are supposed to educate one so that he or she will not believe a lie:
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Such deceitfulness will 'keep' one from knowing God the way he is called to. And he will hide behind it thinking it will 'cover' him, as both Adam and Eve did in the garden. But it didn't work for them.
Posted by Keeper (Member # 7675) on
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WildB..I hope that you and the rest of ya enjoy yourselves. This is no life to live on this board. Too many loose cannons.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Loose cannons? Seems to me, keeper, that your goal is to be objectionable. Seems to me that you 'flock' to the cannons. You do not have to participate with that which you disagree!
And bwildD, 'Flop!' Recognize that sound? Didn't even hit the ceiling, but it did make a terrific impression on the poor old floor. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
Weren't you going to 'pray' for us, as you so stated in that other post? And now all you can do already is to 'create' strife, while blaming someone else for it? It is one thing to disagree, but regrettably what people do is call names. It makes the case. That is keeping the commandments, is it not?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Loose cannons? Seems to me, keeper, that your goal is to be objectionable. Seems to me that you 'flock' to the cannons. You do not have to participate with that which you disagree!
And bwildD, 'Flop!' Recognize that sound? Didn't even hit the ceiling, but it did make a terrific impression on the poor old floor. Weren't you going to 'pray' for us, as you so stated in that other post? And now all you can do already is to 'create' strife, while blaming someone else for it?
May the Lord remove those that continue to drag dead fish. MH smelled your hands lately?
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Keeper wrote quote:
EDEN; When I said your scriptures were out of context you responded "Could be out of context, not very likely. And I have no intention of going back there to see what you are talking about." Arrogance at its finest.
I just don't feel like going to look "back there" to see what you are talking about ... is that okay?
Keeper continued quote:
If you choose to use scripture with no responsibility or concern as to the truth of it there is something wrong in that picture. Your use of Ex 12:13 is so far off from what you claim that you should care. You and MH are doing this all the time.
Your opinion notwithstanding, I do use scripture with care and responsibility and I think my use of Exo 12:13 is very applicable in this case, thank you. But I get that YOU don't think so, which is fine.
Keeper finished with quote:
If you do not care if the others here respond to you or read your posts and the other way around then why are you here? I find conversation with you absolutely worthless.
Keeper, you and I converse quite a bit, but you seem to have the notion that it is mandatory that each participant on this bbs read every post that somebody decides to post; I just don't have that kind of time, or interest. I read what I feel like reading, and that's it, and I post when I feel up to it (although I do make an effort to post here because to me it is "working in the vineyard of the LORD" and I know that the LORD "pays His workers very well".
But everything is voluntary and nothing is mandatory, okay?
love, Eden
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
Eden deceptively writes,
"Keeper, you and I converse quite a bit, but you seem to have the notion that it is mandatory that each participant on this bbs read every post that somebody decides to post; "
That is not what was said.
What Keeper said to you was "IF" you were going to slam a post shouldn't you read it in total.
Stop your sillyness.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
WildB wrote about Eden quote:
What Keeper said to you was "IF" you were going to slam a post shouldn't you read it in total.
In most posts there are some questionable statements that are not hard to find, and I comment on those. It does not require that I read the whole post. If it is not too long, I read the whole post and pick out the part that I disagree with (if there is one), and I comment on that. If the post is real long, I may just look for something that seems incorrect to me and comment on that.
That's what I like to do, is straighten out parts that I don't think are correct. If I don't comment on the rest of the post, I've either not had the time to read it or I'm not interested in reading it all. It's called freedom of speech.
love, Eden
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
WildB wrote about Eden quote:
What Keeper said to you was "IF" you were going to slam a post shouldn't you read it in total.
In most posts there are some questionable statements that are not hard to find, and I comment on those. It does not require that I read the whole post. If it is not too long, I read the whole post and pick out the part that I disagree with (if there is one), and I comment on that. If the post is real long, I may just look for something that seems incorrect to me and comment on that.
That's what I like to do, is straighten out parts that I don't think are correct. If I don't comment on the rest of the post, I've either not had the time to read it or I'm not interested in reading it all. It's called freedom of speech.
, Eden
That is very clear to all.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Thank God for America where we are free to be ourselves.
love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
I've never heard anyone fault Campus Crusade for Christ before. Rarely have I heard Christians fault Billy Graham before the ability to post on the internet. Who are these people who are not afraid to "speak evil to dignitaries?" Well we have our warning about them:
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
This is a reference to Christians, not heathen.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
I've never heard anyone fault Campus Crusade for Christ before. Rarely have I heard Christians fault Billy Graham before the ability to post on the internet. Who are these people who are not afraid to "speak evil to dignitaries?" Well we have our warning about them:
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
This is a reference to Christians, not heathen.
Oh it was your interpretations that you attached to the post that people are speaking against.
Stop spinning your tails.
And one more thing Stop threading people on this board with your misuses of text.
It dosent work here.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Not necessarily 'begging' your pardon bwilder, but the someone said some rude things about the sites that I posted for the 'interested'. Do you know who they are? These are they who FEAR God.
So my comment referenced someone who spoke of these sites, and not of my interpretations, which are of Christ our Lord.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Not necessarily 'begging' your pardon bwilder, but the someone said some rude things about the sites that I posted for the 'interested'. Do you know who they are? They are they who FEAR God.
So my comment referenced someone who spoke of these sites, and not of my interpretations, which are of Christ our Lord.
More spin, spin, spin, spin and finally you think you will win. Not!
Repent.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Repent of what bwilder, disagreeing with you? Shall I deny God to agree with you?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Repent of what bwilder, disagreeing with you? Shall I deny God to agree with you?
More tripe. Here I thought JESUS said he is the only way?
Go figure.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
He is the only way, that is why I cannot deny Him, lest I be stupid, like, well, some!
Oh! I don't have to 'win' bwilder. He already has. And if our God doesn't heal and deliver, people might as well do buddah. Oh, and buddah doesn't attract much controversy. Probably that is because only the truth threatens, and he doesn't have it. But many think that the absense of controversy is a mark of assuredness. Therefore they gravitate to the 'easy' lifestyle. Yet, with buddah each has to 'work' for his salvation. Strangely however, many Christians work against theirs.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
He is the only way, that is why I cannot deny Him, lest I be stupid, like, well, some!
Oh! I don't have to 'win' bwilder. He already has.
Then why do you keep posting insults?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
You see insults. I see someone who doesn't want to know the truth.
The true insult is to reject the grace of God, or to misappropiate it, such as in insisting that it pardons sin, without repentance.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
He is the only way, that is why I cannot deny Him, lest I be stupid, like, well, some!
Oh! I don't have to 'win' bwilder. He already has. And if our God doesn't heal and deliver, people might as well do buddah. Oh, and buddah doesn't attract much controversy. Probably that is because only the truth threatens, and he doesn't have it. But many think that the absense of controversy is a mark of assuredness. Therefore they gravitate to the 'easy' lifestyle. Yet, with buddah each has to 'work' for his salvation. Strangely however, many Christians work against theirs.
I see you edited to add more insults.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Well thank you for repeating it. It bears repeating.
I'll probably repeat it again myself.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Well thank you for repeating it. It bears repeating.
I'll probably repeat it again myself.
Oh Im shur you will continue to cleverly insult others on the board.
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