|
Author
|
Topic: God / Jesus
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Well professor, show me thy credentials. Oh! You just did? Well, you just answered your own query:
quote:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, but which they who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Michael Harrison wrote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Except, it is possible to know which way is right, for HE doesn't leave us in the dark!
You referred to the fact that scripture says that there are those who 'wrest' the scriptures to their destruction. Indeed! These do not know what the scriptures mean, and they apply their 'best effort' to them, trying to make sense of them. (And, by the way, a little sarcasm goes a long way towards blinding one to making sense of them. It should be a clue, about blindness I mean. Alas, so few consider it.)
quote:
Well yew sed quote:
Well, as the TV judge said today, "somebody's lying!" It is true that God does not want to leave us in the dark, but what happens when neither the OSAS nor the non-OSAS side know for sure which side is actually true, and so for now we have two sides, and we may not know until Jesus comes. There are several things that I need to ask Jesus about, already.
Hum, that is what I just said directly above this quote! Yew jus repeated it. But my quote reads: quote:
Except, it is possible to know which way is right, for HE doesn't leave us in the dark!
Yet, I didn't say it. "I AM" says it! Here is a little 'proof', yet one can find more:
[LIST] (Mar 4:11) "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are 'without', all these things are done in parables:"
In that Jesus said, "unto them that are 'without'," He is meaning those who are outside looking in. Therefore it can be understood that one is not 'in' if he doesn't understand. That should be a second clue! Want another ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif) There have been hundreds already! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
EDEN...someday when you have nothing else to do you should try reading Mark 13.
Meanwhile, here is a little something for you.. ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
bluefrog wrote quote:
EDEN...That reminds me, did you ever read Mark 13?
I already told you that after I have read Mark 12, I always skip directly to Mark 14. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
EDEN...That reminds me, did you ever read Mark 13?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
In response to the notion that OSAS people think that non-OSAS people have it wrong, and vice-versa, Michael Harrison wrote quote:
Except, it is possible to know which way is right, for HE doesn't leave us in the dark!
Well, as the TV judge said today, "somebody's lying!" It is true that God does not want to leave us in the dark, but what happens when neither the OSAS nor the non-OSAS side know for sure which side is actually true, and so for now we have two sides, and we may not know until Jesus comes. There are several things that I need to ask Jesus about, already.
There are some subjects in the Bible hard to understand, where it is hard to know for sure who has that truth that Jesus does not want Christians (how about a few Christians) to know about:
Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.
But after a diet of milk the Christians must move on to a diet of meat, but Paul lamented that many milk Christians do not move on to become meat Christians:
1 Corinthians 3:2
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for until now you were not able to bear it, neither yet now are you able {to bear meat teaching}.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, but which they who are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Michael Harrison wrote quote:
Except, it is possible to know which way is right, for HE doesn't leave us in the dark!
There are a number of Bible subjects for which we Bible students currently have "more than one answer."
There are even some subjects, like "Why does the Bible start in The Bronze Age in Genesis 4", for which we have no answer at all, [b]eventhough God "does not want to leave us in the dark...and I will have to wait until Jesus come to ask Him.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Below are the verses that reveal what 'grieves' the Holy Spirit. But in that it says, "Sealed unto the day of redemption," of course! Once you are saved, you are considered to be on the side of God, that is until judgment day. It is illustrated by the parable of the talents. For the one who received salvation (one talent) gave not his Lord a return on His investment. This most likely was an indication that the one preferred a life of sin, of separation from God (as much as possible) until the final day, at which time he would be able to discount his unfaithfulness in return for eternal salvation.
But what happened to this one? He was 'appointed his portion', with the unbelievers. Uh-oh! He didn't see that coming.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Except, it is possible to know which way is right, for HE doesn't leave us in the dark!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
According to WildB, Michael Harrison wrote quote:
It is truly hard to explain to the understanding of an OSAS inclined individual.
It's probably just as hard for an OSAS-inclined individual to explain to the understanding of a NON-OSAS-inclined individual. Neither side can understand why the other side "doesn't get what seems so obvious".
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
It is truly hard to explain to the understanding of an OSAS inclined individual. Every man can believe what he wants to believe and see where it leads him, for most believe what they want, and behave accordingly.
Again,I must ask you to stop your sillyness.
For the Bible STATES~
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are Sealed unto the day of Redemption.
Repent.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
It is truly hard to explain to the understanding of an OSAS inclined individual. Every man can believe what he wants to believe and see where it leads him, for most believe what they want, and behave accordingly.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
I don't know, abortion? I think, though not everybody does, that when someone is saved, he or she is saved. It is not until the judgment that some find out that the one does not have enough 'credits' to clear the judgment.
What the heck are you talking about?
Please post scripture.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
I don't know, abortion? I think, though not everybody does, that when someone is saved, he or she is saved. It is not until the judgment that some find out that the one does not have enough 'credits' to clear the judgment. Now I know no man 'merits' salvation, so one asks, "Where do you get 'credits' from?" Well, it is the parable of the talents. Recently I have understood that the man who received one talent, who buried it, is the equivalent of someone who gets saved, and then, as you say, performs an abortion on him or herself. In the parable, the man who received one talent did not get a return on the talent giver's investment. That would be similar. Therefore, what was given to him, the Lord said, would be taken from him and 'given' to another. And what's more, he was told he would be appointed his 'portion' with the unbelievers. This clearly signifies that he 'was a believer' since the distinction that he would be appointed his portion with the unbelievers, was made. Why make it if the one was not a believer. And so on....
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
MICHAEL...Something just went scammering through my thinker. When speaking of a person being born again and those who were just fooling themselves; would you call that Being Born Again and/or A Born Again Abortion ?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Ordininarily bluefrog, I no longer think of the Bible as an instruction manual. I think of it as a 'revelation', which indeed it is, though it is an instruction manual - to receive the revelation. But/so I really like that post just now where you describe someone pausing before putting on the gas mask. That is what happens to believers. They get saved, and then they pause.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
Yep, that pretty much says it all doesn' it ?
God has put together the training manual for our own good. This is a proper guide and asks us to nothing that He wouldn't do. Just look over the fence to see how folks live that do not love the Word. Turn on the TV and they are in your face.
A Christian Accepts the Word of God.
In the military you must accept your orders.
For example, if you are being attacked by a poison gas and you hear someone shout GAS !
You have only a few seconds to get your mask on.
On the other hand, if you just look around to see if it is true....You Loose.
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
I guess that the verses that I think of when I consider your bootcamp(discipline and training) illustration is this.........
Hebrews 12 vs. 7-11
If ye endure chastening, God deals with you as sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are all illegitimate and not sons.
Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
ONEINCHRIST...Agreed. I was trying to say that there are the ones who are serious and the ones who are not. The Holy Spirit will give knowledge to the TRUE BELIEVER but NOT to the UNBELIEVER.
When I was trying to express the above I didn't even think of the Gifts given the believers. It wasn't because gifts are not important. I was just talking about the basic fact of believing or not believing.
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Bluefrog,
I dont think you explained anything wrong. If you look at "Sergeant Holy Spirit" as being the inspired word of God, then I think that your illustration flows. But on the other hand, if you were to look at "Sergeant Holy Spirit" as the diversities of gifts(spoken of by Paul in Corinthians) that are given to the body of believers, which function to glorify Jesus---then I would say that clarification is needed---because I do not believe those gifts are given/entrusted to any newbie who hears the instruction of the inspired word.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
Well, I think you are both right. I thought I had explained it right but you know me.
The work of the Holy Spirit is to open the eyes and ears of the new believer. Like you both say, it is not a done deal if the newbe isn't serious.
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Eden,
I read your response and I see the angle that you are coming from. I do not think that either of us is incorrect, I just think that we are coming from slightly different perspectives. I guess that the perspective that I am more coming from, in trying to relate to bluefrogs illustration, is that the instruction, which is via the "Word of God" / "gospel message" is there for anyone to take or leave, but that the Holy Ghost becomes available as a gift only to the takers(ones who respond in faith).
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
hi, oneinchrist, you wrote to bluefrog quote:
I would think that God would not even give the gift of "seargent Holy Spirit" to the new recruit that was not in it for the right reasons. I believe that God only entrusts the Holy Ghost to those who come to Him with a sincere heart ready to obey Him.
A boot camp instructor cannot tell (at least right away) who is in the service with a heart dedicated to serving this country and who is in it as kind of a sick joke..............but we know that is not the case with God.
Yes, you are right that God knows the heart of each "would-be believer", but for God that is not the issue; God wants the "would-be believer" to know what the condition of his heart is, and only the "instructor, in this case the Holy Spirit", can "show this to the person" by "being his instructor" which activates his rebellion, if any.
God knows, but God needs to make the recruit see himself for what he is, and for that God needs the Holy Spirit to show the person what his conditon really is in real-time, you know what I mean? God knows, but the person does not yet know his heart.
So to repeat what you said quote:
I would think that God would not even give the gift of "seargent Holy Spirit" to the new recruit that was not in it for the right reasons. I believe that God only entrusts the Holy Ghost to those who come to Him with a sincere heart ready to obey Him.
A boot camp instructor cannot tell (at least right away) who is in the service with a heart dedicated to serving this country and who is in it as kind of a sick joke..............but we know that is not the case with God.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
bluefrog wrote quote:
At the beginning of [Christian] boot camp they will be given an instructor, we will call him Sergeant Holy Spirit.
If the instructions of the Holy Spirit are ignored and rebellion sets in then it is decided that they were just fooling themselves and are sent back to where they came from [given a discharge].
However, if the recruit wants to learn and will see and hear they will have a much better chance of survival and for those around them as well.
Exactly. That is probably how it is in the kingdom of God too.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Bluefrog,
I would think that God would not even give the gift of "seargent Holy Spirit" to the new recruit that was not in it for the right reasons. I believe that God only entrusts the Holy Ghost to those who come to Him with a sincere heart ready to obey Him.
A boot camp instructor cannot tell (at least right away) who is in the service with a heart dedicated to serving this country and who is in it as kind of a sick joke..............but we know that is not the case with God. He sees into the hearts of men and He surely would not accidently give out the gift to a heart that has the wrong motive.
The book of Acts gives us a good example of a man who was baptized , but did not subsequently receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. That would be Simon, the man who offered money for the Holy Ghost power. That is just one example of wrong motive........and I am sure that there are other wrong motives that would be similarly "selfish" in nature.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
When a young person decides to join the armed forces it is most often to serve their country. Some join to get a little income but also for a college education.
When a person decides to turn their life over to God they also do it for more than just one reason. Some will do it for the right reason but some will do it to make themselves just feel good.
As a military training instructor, it was my job to take the young person with their positive attitude and show them how to become a military person and what the rules were. One of the main issues was discipline. If they did not learn to follow orders they were usually sent back home.
Being unable to follow orders could cause their own death and the death of others. The same applies to a new Christian. They can (shall we say) enlist, but then they need to go through Boot Camp. At the beginning of boot camp they will be given an instructor, we will call him Sergeant Holy Spirit. If the instructions of the Holy Spirit are ignored and rebellion sets in then it is decided that they were just fooling themselves and are sent back to where they came from. However, if the recruit wants to learn and will see and hear they will have a much better chance of survival and for those around them as well.
Onward Christian Soldiers !
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Regarding the statement, "How did we know when we found the truth to be Jesus?", bluefrog wrote "from the Word" and I agree with that. It did take me a number of years to believe the Word, but thank God I eventually believed the Word and that Jesus was Who the Word said He was, and more.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
GLORY BELONGS TO HIM....
Thanks for telling us SISTER ! Nice to know we have some ladies here.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Glory belongs to Him
Advanced Member
Member # 7432
|
posted
Eden wrote bluefrog:
quote:
How did we know when we found the truth to be Jesus?
bluefrog wrote Eden saying;
quote:
I knew that I knew while reading the Word. But, only the Word the only variation was within the different bible believing denominations.
John 8:32
You shall know the "Truth" and the "Truth" shall set you free. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Oh yes! Searching Truth I am not a brother 100% " a sister."
--------------------
If you ever get so hungry for God that you are in pursuit of Him, He will do things for you that He won't do for anybody else.
Posts: 112 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
EDEN...You ask, how did we know when we found Jesus was the truth ?
My answer may contradict what we were talking about just before, but not really.
I knew that I knew while reading the Word. But, Only the Word. The only variation was within the different bible believing denominations.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
hello, bluefrog, you wrote to SearchingTruth quote:
...About a year ago, I met a guy who didn't know what he was. He was a heavy reader and studied (as he claimed) all the religions. From that, he built his own religion. He went for reincarnation so he could work on improving himself, he did a lot of meditation, he saw himself as God within and then outside too sorta. For him to describe his beliefs it took a couple of pages of notes.RE the part that I bolded, does it only take a few sentences for us to explain our belief?
bluefrog, you continued[quote] He said the bible was a novel but had a confused God. He constantly lied about reading the bible but instead studied notes from atheist groups.
He also felt that a person must do a lot of research before they can determine the truth.
RE the bolded part, it is a common pattern for non-Christian New Age types and maybe for Quranites too, that "it just cannot be as simple as believing that Jesus died in my place".
Because where is ATTAINMENT IN THAT? After all, "even a common person can believe in Jesus" and "where is the ego in that?"
Lucifer/Satan however "wants non-Christians to think that they need to study a lot to ATTAIN, that only those are SPIRITUAL who have ATTAINED a level of consciousness over and above what the comman man has", and that takes LOTS OF STUDYING and SITTING in meditation, and there is never any rest because "no sooner has the latest piece of SPIRITUAL knowledge been discovered, the ego or soul must press on to that next nugget of knowledge that Lucifer wants to use to inflate and make big his ego. ONLY THOSE WHO STUDY MUCH CAN BE WORTHY, type of mentality.
But that is not how the God of Israel and the Lord Jesus work at all, "lest any man should boast":
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
But that is WAY TO SIMPLE for the New Agers and apparently the Quranists, "only those who study hard and make themselves will be accounted worthy of heaven", and that sort of thing.
Ephesians 2
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
But Lucifer says, "No, you have to study to ATTAIN, with meditation, with yoga, with much SITTING, but never coming to an ending.
As bluefrog said to SearchingTruth, If you are searching for the truth, how will you know when you find it?
dear bluefrog, How did we know when we found the truth to be Jesus?
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
SEARCHINGFORTRUTH...About a year ago, I met a guy who didn't know what he was. He was heavy reader and studied (as he claimed) all the religions. From that, he built his own religion. He went for reincarnation so he could work on improving himself, he did a lot of meditation, he saw himself as God within and then outside too sorta. For him to describe his beliefs it took a couple of pages of notes. He said the bible was a novel but had a confused God. He constantly lied about reading the bible but instead studied notes from athiest groups.
He also felt that a person must do a lot of research before they can determine the truth.
I asked him: If you are searching for the truth, how will you know when you find it ?
No other religion claims to be the truth but Jesus says He is the Truth. When truth is abandoned there is tyranny.
IP: Logged |
|
|
The Beauty of Holiness777
Advanced Member
Member # 7380
|
posted
WOW! It's good to have brothers and sisters in the body of Christ that knows Scripture as Glory belongs to Him have said in a previous post.
There is a lot I wanted to say but seems as though all of you have just about covered it all.
Searching Truth I pray that God will open your mind to the truth. Nevertheless, learning means asking questions, hopefully you will learn enough about God's Word to set you free from doubt.
Love and peace to All! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
--------------------
In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
Posts: 192 | From: God's Universe | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Really! Oneinchrist.... In fact, if there are any flaws in the bible, they are there by design. Literally! For God is not weak. Neither is HE far away. He knows His business, and since HE said that "without faith, it is impossible to please God," well..... Let's face it. On the one hand He has given explicit proofs! On another, there are things which 'weed out' if you will, those who will choose to believe, from those who are looking for an excuse not to believe. It is a question of which, one will run with.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Oh brother. Why did I ignore this topic?
quote:
The original sin was when Adam ate the fruit from the forbidden tree and as a result was kicked out of Heaven and was imprisoned on earth. Now Christianity believes that Every Child born carries the burden of Adams wrongdoing. Now is that fair? If a good child who is of the nicest people does not believe in Jesus dying for his “SINS” (the sin of Adam), he will burn in hell for a misdeed he did not commit? NO!
After the fall, generation spawned generation of the same 'rotten' copy of the original fallen one. That is so simple. So do they carry the burden of Adam's wrong doing? You betcha! Will one die in hell for a misdeed he did not commit? Tis for sure! Why? He 'rejected' the copy-correction, which was freely offered. And does scripture allude to our fallen state such as you have mentioned above, implying that a good child does not deserve hell?
- Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Jesus made it clear here that even evil children (those who are the offspring of the bad-copy of the first fallen) know how to give good gifts. He is saying flat out that people are basically 'good' (in some sense) but that they are "removed" from relationship with God because of an overriding flaw which Jesus corrects. Therefore, without Jesus, one is incomplete, and judged already!
- Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Have you ever read the bible searchingfortruth?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Michael,
You just hit on something in your post that I also have tried to point out. If we were to draw the conclusion that the bible is innacurate or incomplete then are we not taking the risk of accusing God as being incompetent in the preservation of His own word through His own people.....and through time?
If Searching For Truth has decided to believe that all of the character and truth of God is wrapped up in the Koran, yes, that is his choice............but, as for me, I choose to believe the bible because I believe it reflects the true loving character of a God who long ago in eternity past decided that He would share His existence with men and then
reveal to us His plan to make a way for us to be able to come in His presence despite His Holy nature and our sin nature. Yes, my heart is convinced by the love of the truth.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
God ever humbles Himself...
- Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
- Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
- Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
But Jesus IS God. Scripture even says that HE became flesh. And Jesus is the "Word of God," by which the worlds are framed (Read the Gospel of John). Therefore he has to be God.
Scripture says that HE is the son of man. It says that HE is the Son of God. He is both, and for a reason. That reason is so that we may be able to relate with HIM, and therefore fellowship together. But that does not make Him mere man. Far from it! He met us where our understanding could get a grasp.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
You are simply a deceiver, plying your trade.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
quote:
searchingtruth! quote:
People you are not getting my Drift here. I DO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE, I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS AN ORGINIAL GOSPEL OF JESUS WHICH WAS THE WORD OF GOD, I DO BELIEVE. BUT WHAT I DO NOT BELIEVE IS TODAYS BIBLE. I AM NOT SAYING THE BIBLE TODAY IS COMPLETELY WRONG, BUT THERE ARE CHUNKS AND CHUNKS IN IT THAT HAS BEEN CHANGED, WHICH MAKES IT NOT THE WORD OF GOD ANYMORE. THE QURAN IS A BOOK THAT HAS BEEN PRESERVED FOR OVER 1400 YEARS NOW IN ITS ORIGINAL AND HAS NO CONTRADICTIONS OR CONFUSIONS IN ITS SCRIPTURES.
If what you say is true, God is entirely impotent, and could not have even created the earth. If HE could create the worlds, and populate the earth with life, can HE not preserve the scriptures for our generation so that we may 'hear and believe'?
Next! Who needs to know anything about any other faith? Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life." That cancels out everything else. For everything else contradicts that. So one does not have to look very far into another religion to discover that both cannot be right.
And scripture says that "Faith cometh by hearing, and HEARING, by the word of God." How can one have faith if the word is screwed up? I feel sorry for you, but you 'chose' your own poison. No one does it for you.
There is outright evidence that the Bible is preserved for all practical purposes, flawlessly, right up till today. The acid test is a thing called Theomatics. How marvelous and profound the evidence this presents is. How I wish people could ingest it, but even Christians, I find, overlook the profundity of the revelation which is the amazement that is in the translation of the original texts (as close as we can come to them), into numbers which show forth a meaningful pattern which will not be demonstrated in any other text.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Just yesterday I heard a local pastor talk about muslims and the koran. I found myself interested in what he was saying. Something he brought out that I didn't realize, was that of late (I don't know how to reference that timewise), there has been some revision of scriptures as it somehow relates to the koran. And this guy's emphasis was in the fact that he could prove, using a timeline and/or some other sources, to demonstrate, that the changes are what they are, and that they are errant. He pointed out that the current militant muslims are using these errant verses to justify their current behavior. And this guy (who is half Arab) is simply pointing out that the so-called corrections which have been made, are falsifications of the reality known by generations preceeding. FWIW!
I was only listening with half an ear, so I didn't pin down the specifics. But the point that he was making was that these changes were very very recent. You caught my attention eden with the note about Abraham not sacrificing Issac, supposedly, but Ishmael. Really! If they have the root wrong, will not the tree also be mangled?
I cannot stand the thought of reading the koran. This is not because I am not open to challenges. Unlike muslims, I can question my faith. Muslims go into a tissy, a frenzied, off-balanced, see-no, hear-no, speak-no-evil fit, as if in a trying to drown out what they heard, seizure, if doubt is raised about what they believe. (See "Not with out my child," with Sally Fields.) If the faith of someone is true, one will not become insecure such that he or she has to behave as though he or she, being unable to swim, has been cast into deep water, and therefore must look for something to float on.
But I have seen Christians behave insecurely. To be forthcoming, that is out of insecurity, not love. Because love is not insecure, which should tell thee, that there is something further to discover about one's faith. So if one is challenged when someone puts up the atheists gospel beside the Nativity Scene, whosoever behaves erratically as a result, has not demonstrated the security which cannot be challenged, but has in fact given the antagonist confidence the he is in fact right, which is wrong. Get ahold of your faith.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
hello, SearchingTruth, you wrote quote:
I am just asking you to read the Quran.
I have read the Quran. I found it to be a cheap rewrite (a B-version) of the LORD's Old Testament.
And the Quran even steals the main characters of the Old Testament, and then the Quran changes some important facts from the Old Testament, in partiucular that Abraham did not try to sacrifice Isaac, but Ishmael.
So are you saying that the LORD God of Israel had His facts wrong the first time and He used Mohammed to "correct" His first error, namely that the LORD "really had Ishmael in mind" but Moses (the author of the first 5 books) "misunderstood" and so "Isaac" should have been "Ishmael"?
Also note that the book of Genesis is far older than the Quran, and that when it comes to choosing between the account of Genesis versus the account of the Quran, it is wise to go with the most venerable version, namely with Genesis of the Old Testament, and not with some "revisionist" version like the Quran.
But, as I said, I have read the Quran, and I found it to be a cheap rewrite of the LORD's Old Testament, something that Lucifer/Satan would write in order to attempt to wrest the Lordship away from Jesus of Bethlehem/Nazareth who is to rule over the nations from Jerualem upon His second coming. That can be the only reason why the Quran was created, and none other.
love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
I was hoping that no one was thinking that I am a respecter of lies. What I respect is that every individual has a God-given choice in what they are going to put their faith in. I believe it very profitable if both sides are willing to listen to the reasons why they choose to believe what they believe.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Glory Belongs to Him
quote:
SearchingTruth you also asked can we imagine God humbling Himself. Well in a way He did.
God ever humbles Himself...- Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
- Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Searching Truth
quote:
Exactly brother... the Christians claim his divinity, but Jesus never claimed it, Jesus according to Christians is God incarnate, equal to the Father and equal to the holy spirit, yet they are all one... Three in One... I don’t know in what language this makes sense but this is the belief. 1 + 1 + 1 =1? No, 1 + 1 + 1 =3! There are 3 distinct mental pictures in your mind when you think of the three.
One, and one, and one is ONE! Is not a triangle one? I am Michael Harrison. I am one, yet my body contains a soul, and my soul contains my spirit.
When we address God, we can address either HIS Spirit, or the Father, or Jesus. However, we address neither the Father or His spirit but by the Blood of Jesus. In other words, we can only address the other two by Jesus. And it matters not if we address one, and not the other, for if we address one, then we address three! So! ! !
I have said it before, and I will say it over and over again, there is much about God that we simply do not have the capacity to understand. And it is like this, how does one comprehend someone who has no beginning? I mean, what was the first thing HE did then, if HE has no beginning? Do you see what I mean? So why be tripped over something that for all practical purposes is trivial. “Jesus is the image of the invisible God.” The reason for Him is for us to have someone to focus on. The reason HE humbled himself and came to earth as a man (one of us) was so that we would be able to ‘relate’ to Him, which is hard to do without a focal point. That is why He is our friend, and our brother. We can relate to Him because HE relates to us on our level.
We can relate! ! ! - Joh 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
We can relate, because HE relates!- Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
So, (whoever said it) the muslims are a fifth of something. I do not owe a lie, a distortion, any respect. The muslim faith is a weak excuse for a religion.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
My Dear Sheepfold Brothers WildB and bluefrog,
Yes, I am but your humble "Sister" sheep Yahsway.
One of the "Female masses" here in the United States.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by bluefrog:
Anyone see a sheep just walk by here ?
A sheeple?
Not to wory.
John.10
For Christ has said,
[1] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
bluefrog
unregistered
|
posted
Anyone see a sheep just walk by here ?
IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
First of all. "Allah" is NOT a name but a "Title"
Just as "God", "Lord", "Adoni", ect.. are all Titles. These are NOT Names.
The Muslims use of the word "Allah" is known to them as meaning "the god", and seems to be from the word "elah", which in Hebrew means "mighty one", BUT it is Not a name.
My God has a name and so does His Son. Not just titles. My God is a Personable God.
The arabs are the children of Abraham by his 1st wife Hagar, who lived apart from the tribes of Yisrael and became Pagans.
They worshipped hundreds of dieties. The big black "box" now called the Kabba was once filled with images of their dieties, one which was called "Allah".
"Islam" means "submisssion". Muhammad was born among the pagan Arabs, and converted to Yahudaism.
He was eventually ejected by the synagogue because of his violence. He sought to convert his mis-guided people from their Paganisim, but had to flee for his life from Mecca to his birthplace in Medina in CE 622, because the Arabs were dedicated to their idols.
This "flight" or "hejira", is the beginning point in the Islamic calander. When he was in his mid 20's, he organized a large band of followers and attacked the pagan hierarchy in Mecca and destroyed the idols in the Kaaba, replacing them with oil lamps.
A large black rock inside is believed to be a gift from an angel to their father Abraham, and the Kaaba is considered to be the holiest place on earth today by Muslims.
"Muslim" means "one who submits" and is based on the same word as Islam. He married an older woman in her 40's, Kadijah, who was a Roman Catholic nun. It is believed by many that she was sent to him by the Vatican, who taught him from the scrolls of the TaNaKh.
In these scrolls, there is a different "transposition" of the names Isaac and Ishmael, indicating that "the Covenant" was really with the 1st born son of Abraham, Ishmael.
This may have been with the purpose of causing the Ishmaelites to eventually rise up and re-capture the land of Yisrael from the Persians.
After the slaughter, Rome would make her move, which history shows she did, in the "Crusades".
The "sign" of the land Covenant is circumcision, which the Pagan Arabs did not practice. The Islams embraced praying to Mary because of Muhammads wifes dedication to her.
They considered Rabbi Yeshua to be a prophet, but they prayed to His dead mother!
The "sacred" writings of Islam are called the Koran (or Quran, from the Hebrew word "qara" for "Proclaim")
Muhammad instituted Islams "Sabbath" as 1 day before the 7th day, or what is called in the Greek calander "Friday".
The Ishmaelites and the Israelites are both "Hebrews", and are brothers, yet they fight over the land given to Abraham. The problem is really their difference of Religion.
The Romans re-named the land "Palestine", a Latinism for "Philistia", the land of the old Philistines, who came there as settlers. "They were "sea-people".
When we see the Arabs referring to themselves as "Palestinians", they are calling themselves "Philistines", as if their claim to the land Pre-dates the "Jews" because of this.
Yet, Genesis 21:34 states "Abraham SOJOURNED in the land of the Philistines many days". Obviously, Abraham wasnt a Philistine, so Neither was Isaac or Ishmael, his sons, were either.
The Ishmaelites lived in Arabia, hence their names arabs. They were the merchants who bought Yoseph who was carried off to Egypt and sold to Potiphar.
They face Mecca when they pray. When they rise up in their "jihad" (holy war) they are sometimes heard chanting "1st the Saturday people, then the Sunday people"!"
The object of Islam is control of the Whole Earth, and the extermination of the "unbelievers".
They control the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, so the focus remains being hostile towards their brothers, Even though No one is meddling with their "holiest" place in Mecca.
Yeshua spoke of the kingdom of Yahweh, and said "Few there are that find it/enter into it"
But "Many" will be turned away. So as far as "Islam" being the fastest growing or many joining this religion means absolutely nothing to me. I do not follow the "Masses" only I follow the King of kings and Lord of lords and His NAME is Yeshua meaning "Salvation" sent by the Father Yahweh meaning Yah saves.
In Him is Life, In Him is Truth, in Him is the Way back to the Father Yahweh, for there is no other name under heaven by which one can be saved.
But few there are that find Him. Shalom
and Baruch Ha Ba BaShem Adoni
Blessed is He who comes in the NAME of the Lord.
Who is He that comes in the Name of the Lord?
His name is Yeshua, He is the Messiah and He comes in His Fathers name Yahweh, Yah Saves!
HallaluYah!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Dear Daniel,
Compromising the truth is never the answer.
Embracing tolerance is a gross overreaction and will undermine the clarity of the gospel message.
For Christ said, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi again Searching Truth,
Please bear with me as we work through some issues together respecting each others views, but not necessarily agreeing with them all.
I have relatives who are Muslim. We have had good conversations together listening to each others side.
Obviously the biggest difference in beliefs between the Christian and Muslim are about Jesus......who He is. To the Christian the deity of Jesus is of vital importance as to our being able to come into the presence of God . The Old covenant sacrifice was a shadow of things to come. The earthly altar was only a copy of the heavenly. Since the heavenly altar was fashioned by God Himself it had to be purified with greater things than the blood of goats, bulls, etc. The Old Covenant law "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins" is a timeless law of the covenant between man and God. Muslims do not consider the covenant law, therefore; it remains a mystery to them that Jesus the Son of God came to fullfill it. Since Jesus was Holy and sinless He qualifies as the perfect sacrifice for the washing away of our sins.
I would agree with you that many Muslims live decent lives comparable to many professing Christians........but I would not say that the problem with the Christians is the bible itself. We need to understand that there are false Christians just like there are false Muslims........I know that people would argue over what that means, but we know that it has to be true.
The truth is that if most professing Christians took Jesus Words to heart, they would excel in every way above Muslim conduct. I do not mean that in an arrogant way, but in a way that gives honor to Jesus, our Lord, who's perfect love excels above any other mans.
One more thing I would like to adress concerning the difference between the bible and the Koran. The bible contains many witnesses whos accounts all line up with each other. The Koran is just one man giving testimony with no witnesses to lend crediblity to his words. To me that would be like being at a football game. You just missed a play because you were looking at the scoreboard. Then you hear the others around you describing the play that you missed. 5 people give the same account, but one guy tells it a little different. Are you going to believe the 10 eyes that were on the same play, or are you going to believe the two eyes that saw it different?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Now you ask what is supposed to be the response to this act of God. Men everywhere are commanded to repent. We must repent, and turn to God and His will with all our hearts. His general will is that we hear and obey Jesus, but our specific calling is under the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Matt.13
[25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
SearchingTruth
Community Member
Member # 7510
|
posted
Brother Glory belongs to him,
I do not even have to go as far as opening the Quran to prove the Bible today is not the original. The SOURCE I am using is your own Bible and the explanations I am giving of the verses are what the SCHOLARS SAY, Not Me, but the scholars.
The Quran does Not teach against the Gospel. IN FACT, you are not a Muslim if you do not believe in the Bible and the Torah. Islam believes in all the Prophets of the Torah and the Bible.
Now brother, how can you preach a book and claim it is the Word of God, and you do not know about any other book. How can you preach to a Jew or a Hindu or a Muslim or a Buddhist, when you don’t know their books? Those religions also claim their books are the word of God...
Let me make it easier for you, there are Only THREE mono-theological religions on this earth. They are Judaism, Christianity and Islam. You probably know about Judaism already and of course Christianity... So all that’s left to learn is Islam. I am just asking you to read the Quran. I am not telling you to believe it, but as one who preaches, you need to know about other religions to be able to dismantle their book. I have studied the Old (Torah), New (Bible) and Last (Quran) Testament In-depth for many years now. I do Comparative religion. So PLEASE do not make adverse statements about ANY religion without knowing them.
Bluefrog,
This whole time I am trying to prove to you that God and Jesus are two Different Persons. The reason I brought up the Quran because it gives a Direct answer to this Question without confusion or contradiction. It is a Crystal Clear book.
People you are not getting my Drift here. I DO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE, I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE WAS AN ORGINIAL GOSPEL OF JESUS WHICH WAS THE WORD OF GOD, I DO BELIEVE. BUT WHAT I DO NOT BELIEVE IS TODAYS BIBLE. I AM NOT SAYING THE BIBLE TODAY IS COMPLETELY WRONG, BUT THERE ARE CHUNKS AND CHUNKS IN IT THAT HAS BEEN CHANGED, WHICH MAKES IT NOT THE WORD OF GOD ANYMORE. THE QURAN IS A BOOK THAT HAS BEEN PRESERVED FOR OVER 1400 YEARS NOW IN ITS ORIGINAL AND HAS NO CONTRADICTIONS OR CONFUSIONS IN ITS SCRIPTURES.
Therefore I am only suggesting you read it and see what this book has to offer. There are 1.3 Billion Muslims. The Two most competitive religions are Islam and Christianity. I have done my duty analyzing all three mono-theological religions. I am not here to argue with anyone about anything, just having a friendly discussion here, so please do not make bad comments about other religions. Have respect for them and their beliefs.
“Care”taker,
Please be “Care”ful about what you say about other doctrines. It is quiet immature and not nice to call other doctrines as demonic or whatever. Have respect for other people’s faith please. Thank you.
Oneinchrist,
I do believe in the message of Christ. But the issue here, and Jesus even says this. That his people were NOT FIT to receive his message. The Jews were very ignorant and stubborn people. They did not accept Jesus for what he was, so they CHANGED the doctrines according to their satisfactions. And they wanted to even Kill him. This shows that his message was not accepted, therefore the true message was never properly absorbed and preserved. This is why we get so many versions and revisions of the Bible today.
NOW let us see what solutions the Bible today has for humankind:
The Bible: This biggest Christian nation on this earth is America. And the most corrupt nation on this earth is America. According to statistics, there are nearly 40 million DRUNKARDS in America. 11% of the population in American commits INCEST. America has the Highest GAMBLING RATE, Highest CRIME RATE and Highest PRISON RATE. There are over 10 Million more women than men. If every man in American got married, there would still be over 10 million women who can’t get husbands, Yet there are over 25 Million SODOMITES (GAYS) in America, so over 35 million women in America can’t get Husbands... Also so much adultery is taking place in America. All of this similarly in Europe as well...
Now I am Asking you, what solutions does the Bible have for all this???
NOW let us see what solutions the Quran has to offer for all this:
The Quran: the Biggest Muslim nation in the world is in Indonesia (over 200 million Muslims). Indonesia has the Lowest Alcohol Consumption rate, Lowest Gambling rate, Lowest Crime rate, Lowest Prison Rate and the Highest Charity Rate. Islam allows you up to 4 wives, so that solves the problem of the Women over-populating men. There are Many Many more things Islam has to offer.
The Torah, Bible and the Quran are really the same book and one religion. The Quran is “The Last Testament”, the people were Open and Fit to receive the message and thus it was accepted and preserved. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World today. 100 thousand Christians convert to Islam every year in America alone!
Allah is not a Different God. He is the Father, He is the same God as Adam and Moses and Jesus and all the prophets and everything in this universe. He is the One and Only UNIQUE God and His name is Allah.
Quran:
“1. Say (O Muhammad): “ He is Allah, (the) One.
2. Allah – the Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, (He neither eats nor drinks).
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him”. (Chapter 112, The Purity)
Posts: 10 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Searching Truth,
You say that you believe in the original bible, the gospel of Jesus.......but you claim that there is no longer any record of this "original" gospel.
I am curious then...........how then could we possibly know how it is that we should be living our lives?
Is it then up to man to just make up his own truth since the "original truth" has vanished?
Do you bank on the assumption that God has chosen irresponsible leaders with the proper caretaking of His precious word?
I am assuming that since you claim that the four gospels are false that the book of 1John is also false......specifically 1John 5:10 which states...........
He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
