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Topic: Mystery of Israel and Judah
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Eden
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posted
Dear scythewieldor, I just copied the instances of 1484 nation(s) that u referred to, below, and will comment after each. You said at the end of the list: "In every case but the last, the Holy spirit chose to use the word ethnos to speak of the nation of the Jews."
Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations <1484>, beginning at Jerusalem.
Comment: all nations are above called ethos but Judah is called an ethnos 1484.
Joh 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation <1484>.
Comment: above Judah is called an ethnos 1484.
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation <1484> perish not.
Comment: above Judah is called an ethnos 1484. (howbeit, you are continuing the same John 11 text, where one would expect that continuation of using ethnos.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation <1484>;
Comment: ditto
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation <1484> only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Comment: Okay, that is an interesting verse in relation to what you have been saying. Clearly this 1484 ethnos is Judah-Benjamin and it seems that the "children of God that were scattered abroad" must refer to the house of Israel only.
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation <1484> and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Comment: ditto Judah-Benjamin
Ac 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation <1484> of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Ac 24:2 And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation <1484> by thy providence,
Ac 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation <1484>, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
Ac 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation <1484>, and offerings.
Ac 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation <1484> at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Ac 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation <1484> of.
Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations <1484>, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
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scythewieldor added: In every case but the last, the Holy spirit chose to use the word ethnos to speak of the nation of the Jews.
Eden here: yes, in John 11 the “nation” or ethnos is Judah-Benjamin, with the exception of where the rest of the nations are also included, so John 11:52 is very interesting in regard to what you propose:
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation <1484> only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
However, this is where the gap may be in your thought line. What you may be omitting is that yes, the children of God who are scattered abroad will be gathered too, BUT (and this is what you are perhaps omitting), there will also be Gentile ethnae gathered and saved too.
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then has God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Peter had gone up to Jerusalem to the apostles at Jerusalem, and both Peter and the apostles at Jerusalem knew the difference between the dispersed house of Israel and the Hamite/Japhetic Gentiles, could have easily said:
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then has God also to the house of Israel granted repentance unto life.
But then you can say, “but (I think it was Hosea) who said that when the house of Israel was dispersed in the nations, that the house of Israel would “lose its way” and “would not remember anymore that it was from the house of Israel”.
So that, you could say, “since the house of Israel was predicted not to remember while they were among the nations that they were of the house of Israel,” therefore both Paul and the apostles at Jerusalem went ahead and “called them Gentiles” since even Paul and the apostles did not know “who was who”?
And also here, please:
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, look, we turn to the Gentiles.
Dear scythewieldor, Paul and Barnabas knew the difference between the dispersed house of Israel and the Gentiles, and presumably the Gentiles were even hated or despised by the Jews (Judah-Benjamin, Paul was a Benjamite), so it is curious to me, given your hypothesis, that here both Paul and Barnabas would flat-out say: “we turn to the Gentiles”, which I think meant to them to Ham and Japheth and to the parts of Shem who are not from Arphaxad-Terah-Abraham-Isaac.
To me, when Paul and Barnabas and the apostles at Jerusalem said “then has God also granted repentance to the Gentiles”, they all had Ham and Japheth and the rest of Shem in mind and NOT the house of Israel ONLY which was dispersed among the Gentiles.
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
To summarize, scythewieldor, I think you are right that God will also gather the children of God that are among the nations:
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation <1484> only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
But the part that is missing in your hypothesis that God will also save the Gentiles, in addition to the children of God of the house of Israel.
Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that You should be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel: [b]I will also give You for a light to the Gentiles, that You may be My salvation unto the end of the earth.
I think the Gentiles are included, scythewieldor?
Love, Eden
"so help me God"
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Carol Swenson
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scythewieldor
If you are not attempting to teach Anglo-Israelism, then what does this mean?
quote:
he is forcing us to recognize that the people who were from the gentiles who were becoming a part of the restoration of the house of David were the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In other words, Gentiles could not be Abraham's seed unless they had been descended from Isaac. They can not be adopted into Abraham's seed.
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Carol Swenson
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posted
The History Of The Ten Lost Tribes
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_History_of_the_Ten_%22Lost%22_Tribes
Here's another site that teaches: ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The Jews Are Not All Israel
quote:
The term "Jews" is never in the Bible applied to the Twelve Tribes or to the Ten-tribed House of Israel. These were to be divorced from the Mosaic law and lost to human history and knowledge, but known to God, re-covenanted in Christ, and to enjoy the Hebrew birthright in the isles of the seas, to be His national evangelists to the world, and the inheritors of the Kingdom of God taken away from the Jews and given to a Nation. It will be shown that the British enjoy all the unconditional promises given to the seed of Abraham in the Christian era and that therefore no other Nation can now replace them as Israel.
http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/jews.html
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
It has been asserted that Israelites went to Europe. The Bible says that the Ephraim-led part of Israel will come back from all over the earth.
Because I have already cited Isaiah, I'll start there. quote:
Is 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
This passage was delivered at about the time the Ephraim-led portion of Israel went into exile. It is written within the context of a Messianic prophecy that we KNOW has it's fulfillment in the days of Paul. We know from the writings of other prophets (Jeremiah and Ezekiel about the time of the Babylonian captivity of Judah and Zechariah after the return of Judah to Jerusalem) that the return of the Ephraim-led portion of Israel was still a future event.
And, we know that the Ephraim-led portion of Israel comes "from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea". What will the complexion of this people be?
From this one passage, we prove that the Caucasian, Euro-centric Israel Theory disregards the Word of God. It, also, proves that the "Jews-are-all-of-Israel" Theory is contrary to the Word of God.
Forcing the context of a forum to be limited to two choices (especially two which are demonstrably false) is dialectic materialism- a brain washing technique that works on the ignorant while alienating the intemparate.
This issue is far too important for me to let insults misdirect my focus.
Please, even if you do it just to show me my fault in transaltion or logic, read the stuff I've written.
Eden is setting a good example for us all. Poke holes, if you can. But, smears are just so cheap- not to mention devilish.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I know I write long sentences, but so did Paul. (Even Peter said Paul was hard to understand.) I would like to restate myself since someone had a hard time with one of my posts.
quote:
As that holy nation, we can become organized to make sure that the Jews, which have not obtained mercy, can see our mercy toward them and our good works, and glorify our Father in heaven, and repent, and be converted from their perversion of the ruined and dead Old Covenant to the living and better New Covenant in Christ Jesus.
* As long as the enemies of God can keep us ignorant of the true knowledge in God's Book,
* As long as the enemies of God can keep us hood-winked with eschatologies based on an unscriptural definition of Israel,
* As long as the enemies of God can take advantage of our ignorance of the languages God chose for His Book,
the Jews will not repent and be converted. That is how long it will be before Jesus comes back from heaven the very same way He left- bodily.
I KNOW the Jews get saved. They get saved because they have a heart change toward the Lord of hosts our God as a consequence of the support of the inhabitants of Jerusalem- us.
To me, the better proof in Zechariah 12 is verse 7.
quote:
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
The word translated "tents" is, usually, rendered "tabernacles" which would mean so much more than just textiles stretched across poles.
Another person has ignored the fact that I am totally against any form of the racism called British Israelitism.
I know that the time of some people is too important to spend reading. They have already learned everything they need to know to make the living they want to make. Any one who brings up something that might require them to change their intellectual portfolio must be stoned.
Cool.
Father, hold not this sin to their charge. Amen
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Carol Swenson
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ANGLO-ISRAELISM IS A FALSE TEACHING
Under the leadership of its founder, Herbert W. Armstrong, the Worldwide Church of God rejected the essential doctrines of evangelical Christianity, denying the doctrine of the Trinity, the full deity of Jesus Christ, and the personality of the Holy Spirit. The church epitomized the somewhat eclectic set of beliefs and practices that became known as Armstrongism .
(Beginning in the early 1990s under the leadership of Armstrong’s successors, Joseph W. Tkach and his son Joe Tkach, this group has undergone remarkable doctrinal transformation. They now hold to a traditional evangelical position on the nature of God and the gospel, teaching the Trinity and salvation by grace alone, through faith alone. Large numbers of its membership have left to join splinter groups that still teach classic Armstrongism .)
Armstrong taught that it is essential for Christians to believe in British-Israelism , (Anglo-Israelism), that is, that present-day Anglo-Saxons (including Americans) are the true descendents of the ancient Israelites. This doctrine states that as Jews were associated with the house of Judah, they are not entitled to the lands promised in Scripture to the Israelites. Instead, England and its people are seen to be the throne of David and should, by divine right, possess these lands.
As a result of the doctrinal and practical changes brought in by the new leadership of the Worldwide Church of God since Armstrong’s death, as many as 104 organizations have been listed as having splintered from the Worldwide Church of God to form separate entities . The list, compiled by Joseph Tkach Jr., includes the following breakaway churches:
—the Global Church of God
—the Philadelphia Church of God
—the United Church of God
—Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God)
—Christian Churches of God.
All of these splinter groups continue to promote Armstrongism .
The Latter Day Saints also teach Anglo-Israelism.
THIS IS A CULT TEACHING
Genetics research on DNA shows that most modern Jews share origins with other people of the Middle East and are sharply divergent genetically from Britons and other Europeans
Both the Samaritan sect and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claim Joseph as one of their ancient tribal patriarchs. In Latter-day Saint interfaith relations with Jews, the LDS Church sometimes calls its people "Joseph", whilst calling the Jews "Judah", emphasizing beliefs of close kinship and mutual sacred covenant. Latter Day Saints do not believe themselves to be exclusively descended from these specific tribes, but in their use of names they associate themselves most closely with specific dominant tribes.
No denomination of Judaism affirms the Samaritan or LDS beliefs, nor similar beliefs adhered to by anyone else.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I am the first to state that the only geneology to which any of us should pay attention is the one that ends in the virgin birth of Jesus, son of David and Son of God.
However, - Since we live by every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God, and,
- Since there is so much theological and eschatological difference among us due to ignorance of and unbelief towards much that has proceeded from the mouth of God, and,
- Since God chose to present geneologies and stories of men named in those geneologies in His book, then,
I can, most unashamedly, direct glory to the one Man, Lord Jesus Christ, for whom the geneologies were preserved until 70 AD. Then, the need for geneologies ended.
Thank God. What a liberty to be free from that burden. Even if I had maintained track of that useless stuff, the knowledge of it would tend to puff me up, causing a problem for me.
It is sufficient to understand the scriptural mechanics of the predestination which resulted in the call to glory of us, who were not a people, which makes us the people of God. As that holy nation, we can become organized to make sure that the Jews, which have not obtained mercy, can see our mercy toward them and our good works, and glorify our Father in heaven, and repent, and be converted from their perversion of the ruined and dead Old Covenant to the living and better New Covenant in Christ Jesus.
- As long as the enemies of God can keep us ignorant of the true knowledge in God's Book,
- As long as the enemies of God can keep us hood-winked with eschatologies based on an unscriptural definition of Israel,
- As long as the enemies of God can take advantage of our ignorance of the languages God chose for His Book,
the Jews will not repent and be converted. That is how long it will be before Jesus comes back from heaven the very same way He left- bodily.
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becauseHElives
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posted
what does the scripture say about endless genealogies?
Titus 3:9-11
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
I want you to see several places where the Holy Spirit chose to use that word, ethnos, in reference to the Jewish nation so that you can have His paradigm when you read the word, gentile, in the English versions.
quote:
Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations <1484>, beginning at Jerusalem.
Joh 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation <1484>.
Joh 11:50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation <1484> perish not.
Joh 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation <1484>;
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation <1484> only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Joh 18:35 Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation <1484> and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?
Ac 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation <1484> of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Ac 24:2 And when he was called forth, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying, Seeing that by thee we enjoy great quietness, and that very worthy deeds are done unto this nation <1484> by thy providence,
Ac 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation <1484>, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
Ac 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation <1484>, and offerings.
Ac 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation <1484> at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
Ac 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation <1484> of.
Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations <1484>, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
In every case but the last, the Holy spirit chose to use the word ethnos to speak of the nation of the Jews. In the first, Jerusalem was the first of the nations where repentance and remission of sins was preached in Jesus name. In the last, we see that Abraham believed that he would become the father of many nations.
Some one is OK with confusing us concerning the word of God by changing interpretations of Greek words.
The same is true in the Old Testament.
quote:
Ge 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles <01471> divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations <01471>.
Ge 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their countries, and in their nations <01471>.
Ge 10:31 These are the sons of Shem, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, after their nations <01471>.
Ge 10:32 These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations <01471>: and by these were the nations <01471> divided in the earth after the flood.
Ge 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation <01471>, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Ge 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations <01471>.
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations <01471> have I made thee.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations <01471> of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations <01471>; kings of people shall be of her.
Ge 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation <01471>, and all the nations <01471> of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Ge 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations <01471> of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Ge 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations <01471> are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation <01471> and a company of nations <01471> shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Ge 48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations <01471>.
See that last one. Ephraim becomes a multitude of nations- the word, nations, is the rendering of the very same Hebrew word translated gentiles and heathen.
Ephraim and Manassah were not adopted into the seed of Abraham.
Isaac was the seed of Abraham.
Jacob was the seed of Abraham. (Presumably, so was Esau- but, God hated him.)
All twelve sons of Jacob were the seed of Abraham.
All the sons of the sons of Jacob were the seed of Abraham, and so on.
When Jacob gave the Birthright to Joseph, he gave the double portion of his inheritance to Joseph which is what elevated the two boys to the prominence of their uncles.
I know it is hard to believe, but our faith has been under attack for a long time. The attack has been carried out on several levels.
quote:
Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
One of those levels has been to confuse our communication with many interpretations for each of several words found in the Book we have received from God. The devil knows it worked for God at the Tower of Babel.
Concerning the believers in Korea, there is a book a book called "Eternity in Their Hearts". It tells of indigenous people across the east which held ancient beliefs that someone would come with the Book they had lost because of their sins. Their old legends, and, in some cases, the names of their ancient ones are very similar to the things we get from the Bible. I believe they were descendants of Israel which were driven into the whole world in preparation for the coming of the Gospel of Jesus Christ so that they could hear His voice in their inner man while they heard His words with their natural ear. Thus, they were set up to take possession of the whole earth in Jesus name.
Does the Bible say that would happen?
quote:
De 13:13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,
16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
Ps 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen <01471> for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Don't be slow to believe all the things written by the prophets.
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Eden
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scythewieldor, you also said: quote:
Jewishness and Greekness refer to ethnicity, not racial derivation.
To me, ethnicity and racial derivation mean the same thing. You further added quote:
When I say "ethnicity", I am using a word that comes directly from the Greek word "ethnos" which is translated nation, gentiles, people, and heathen. It has Strong's reference number 1484.
It is my understanding that in the Bible ALL PEOPLE on earth who are NOT ISRAELITES were considered ETHNOS, or am I mistaken about that?
Love, Eden
“be blessed, everyone”
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Eden
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Hi, scythewieldor, you wrote to Eden quote:
Dear Eden,
Last question is easiest. In fact, I believe I already alluded to it in this thread.
The last question is presumably about the difference in appearance of the yellow Asian and black African bornagain Christians, compared to what the tribes of Israel may have looked like.
You continued quote:
Ephraim and Manassah were the sons of Joseph and the daughter of the high priest of On in Egypt. Do you think that they would be light complected? I don't. …
The twelve tribes of Israel had five different mothers. As far as we know, only Rachel and Leah were related. The other two were handmaids. Maybe Bilhah and Zilpah were picked up at the slave block.
Okay, interesting answer. Rachel and Leah would have looked somewhat like the Terah line from Haran, and Haran was Abraham’s full brother.
As for Bilhah and Zilpah, let’s say that they were picked up at the black slave block originally, so that the 4 sons generated from Jacob by Bilhah and Zilpah might have had black features mixed with Terah-Jacob features.
We further know that the sons of Jacob were in Egypt for a period of time around 1700 to 1500 B.C. in the land of Goshen, which was a district of Egypt.
But ask any Egyptian and he will tell you that the ancient name for Egypt is Misr. Indeed, the word Egypt in the Hebrew Old Testament is always the word Misr. Misr was full brother to Kush (Nubia) and to Phut (Libya) and to Canaan (now Israel). So Misr was Hamite country.
Furthermore, the Israelites were only in Africa in the land of Hamite Misr, but for the rest, following the Exodus from Misr, the Israelites conquered and dwelled in Hamite Canaan.
Until northern Israel was kicked out of Samaria by God and northern Israel was dispersed, to Media (now northwest Iran), and later probably northern Israel made it out of Media thru the Caucasus Pass and settled all around the Black Sea.
The point is, even if Bilhah and Zilpah were black, when the Israelites entered Misr Egypt to dwell in the land of Goshen, only 66 Israelites entered Misr Egypt (Joseph and Asenath and Ephraim and Manasseh were already in Misr Egypt), and the sons of Bilhah and of Zilpah were also part of the 66 Isrealites:
Genesis 46:26
All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were 66;
Exodus 1:5
And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were 70 souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.
Dan, Naphtali, Gad and Asher were from Bilhah by Jacob and from Zilpah by Jacob.
Genesis 30
5 And Bilhah conceived, and bare Jacob a son.
6 And … she his name Dan.
7 And Bilhah Rachel's maid conceived again, and bare Jacob a second son.
8 And Rachel … called his name Naphtali.
10 And Zilpah Leah's maid bore Jacob a son.
11 And Leah … called his name Gad.
12 And Zilpah Leah's maid bare Jacob a second son.
13 And Leah … called his name Asher.
Of the 66 Israelites who came into Misr Egypt with Jacob, 19 children and grandchildren came from Dan, Naphtali, Gad and Asher:
Genesis 46
16 And the sons of Gad: Ziphion (1), and Haggi (2), Shuni(3), and Ezbon(4), Eri(5), and Arodi(6), and Areli(7).
17And the sons of Asher: Jimnah(1), and Ishuah(2), and Isui(3), and Beriah(4), and Serah(5) their sister: and the sons of Beriah: Heber(6), and Malchiel(7).
23 And the sons of Dan: Hushim(1).
24And the sons of Naphtali; Jahzeel(1), and Guni(2), and Jezer(3), and Shillem(4).
So of the 66 Israelites who came into Misr, 19 children and grandchildren came from Dan, Naphtali, Gad and Asher into Hamite Misr Egypt with Jacob, and Dan, Naphtali, Gad and Asher were 4 more, for a total of 23 out of 66 were Bilhah-Jacob and Zilpah-Jacob in looks.
But they all lived for the entire stay in the land of Goshen (which almost certainly was in the northeast Nile Delta) and at the Exodus all 13 tribes (Joseph = Ephraim and Manasseh, became the 12th and 13th tribes), and they stayed together in their conquest of Canaan and we know their history after that in northern Israel until about 721 B.C.
And we know the history in Judah-Benjamin until the 70-year captivity in Babylon and their subsequent return to Judah-Benjamin until 70 A.D.
So scythewieldor, where in the above events do you contemplate that the Jacob-Bilhahites and the Jacob-Zilpahites have time to populate Africa with blacks or to populate East Asia with Asians?
Of course, that question could also be asked of how the children of Noah, Ham, Shem and Japheth came to look like Asians and Africans and Arabs and Europeans and American Indians in such a short time, but to return to your point.
You said: quote:
Ephraim and Manassah were the sons of Joseph and the daughter of the high priest of On in Egypt. Do you think that they would be light complected? I don't. …
The twelve tribes of Israel had five different mothers. As far as we know, only Rachel and Leah were related. The other two were handmaids. Maybe Bilhah and Zilpah were picked up at the slave block.
You also said: quote:
We know that Noah's curse on Canaan was that his seed would be a servant of servants. The two handmaids may have been Canaanite- Hamitic.
What does an Israelite look like? The congregation at the Passover in Jerusalem, probably, could pass for a meeting of the Rainbow Coalition.
All sons had Jacob as their Terah-Abraham-Isaac-Jacob father.
Rachel and Leah were of the line of Haran-Bethuel-Laban. Haran was the full brother of Abraham.
Bilhah and Zilpah may have been whatever, but their children were all by Jacob.
Over all, it probably was NOT such a Rainbow Coalition as you propose.
Thanks for the discussion so far. I’ve learned a few new things myself that I did not know before this post.
Be blessed, scythewieldor,
Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
Last question is easiest. In fact, I believe I already alluded to it in this thread.
Ephraim and Manassah were the sons of Joseph and the daughter of the high priest of On in Egypt.
Do you think that they would be light complected?
I don't.
(British Israelites, go blow a head gasket)
The twelve tribes of Israel had five different mothers. As far as we know, only Rachel and Leah were related. The other two were handmaids. Maybe Bilhah and Zilpah were picked up at the slave block.
We know that Noah's curse on Canaan was that his seed would be a servant of servants. The two handmaids may have been Canaanite- Hamitic.
What does an Israelite look like? The congregation at the Passover in Jerusalem, probably, could pass for a meeting of the Rainbow Coalition.
I don't have time for the rest, right now.
Sorry.
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Eden
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scythewieldor, I did read your second answer RE the good olive tree. Admittedly it was a bit complicated, as written. You again quoted this quote:
Isaiah 11
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
The Bible is very specific about referring to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. So why would this specificity disappear in these next two verses (and others like it) and now the Bible says that the gospel of Jesus is preached to the Gentiles?
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Acts 18:6
And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
Paul certainly knew the difference between the dispersed house of Israel and the Gentiles.
And furthermore, as I mentioned in my post above this, the idea that only the dispersed of the house of Israel among the Gentiles will respond to the gospel (but that the Japhetic and Hamite Gentiles will NOT respond), that could conceivably work in Europe and in central Asia and in America whose "Gentile" citizens look physically a lot like what what the citizens of the house of Israel might have looked like.
But when we consider that many blacks "Gentiles" in Africa and many Asians are bornagain believers in Jesus, then, since these Africans and Asians do NOT physically ressemble the citizens of the house of Israel, then, according to your proposal, all yellow Asians and all black Africans are simply all "mistaken Christians".
What is your answer to that, scythewieldor?
Be blessed, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, scythewieldor, so far I have read your first answer to me, but not yet the second one. RE the first answer, you wrote quote:
No one gets adopted into Abraham's seed.
That's not entirely true, is it, since Ephraim and Manasseh were both adopted by Jacob into the Abraham's seed line of Isaac.
But to get back to your first answer (I paraphrase) you say that all who are being saved are originally of the house of Israel which was dispersed into the nations from 721 B.C. onwards and still is dispersed among the nations today.
From 721 B.C. to 2008 A.D. is only 2,729 years. We further know that there are numerous bornagain Christian believers in South Korea, which is an Asian country whose citizens all have Asian eyes.
Are you suggesting that the "so-called" Asian Korean believers in Jesus are originally all of the dispersed house of Israel but that they have grown Asian eyes in just 2,729 years?
Or are you suggesting that there are millions of "so-called" believers in Jesus who in fact will prove to not be believers, when Jesus comes the second time?
Please explain that to me. Thanks, Eden
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Betty Louise
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How do the sheep know the voice of the Shepherd?
They are with Him on a daily bases. If the Shepherd came once a week or month to see about the sheep, the sheep would not know His voice.
Jesus is always with us, but sometimes, we allow the voices of this world, overwhelm us to we cannot hear our Shepherd's voice. We need to make time to spend time in prayer and in God's word. Back when I was working, I rarely took time to read the Bible telling myself I just did not have time. God talked to my heart about how I made time to read the paper every morning before work. I made a promise to God not to read the paper until I read the Bible. I found that this promise being kept was such a blessing to me. Going to work with God's Word in my heart and my mind, made me go to work with peace in my heart.
We choose to make time for what is important to us. Is God important to us? Only we know the answer to that.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
I noticed a question about olive trees which leads me to believe you missed my explanation about the olive tree.
My model of the olive tree has changed since I was on this board back in April because I know more scripture.
First of all, since the passage about the olive tree includes the prophecy that the Jews will be grafted back into the olive tree, let's get our Old Testament orientation for the picture of the olive tree so that we are not trying to produce a private interpretation.
quote:
Ps 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
Here, David calls himself a green olive tree. This is in keeping with many prophecies that made kings and their descendants trees, and their citizens branches.
quote:
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Here, we see that Jerusalem, which Jesus, later, declares to be the city of the great King, is still associated with the green olive tree. Only, now, we see that tree as having it's branches broken off.
Isaiah refers to Jesse, David's father, as part of a tree.
quote:
Is 11:1 ¶ And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Thus, we have a description of two men. One is a rod out of the stem of Jesse. The Hebrew for "stem" is better rendered "stump." In Jeremiah's day, the stem of Jesse was the line of David through his son which was born of adultery and murder, Solomon.
The other man is a Branch out of the root of Jesse.
Since David is a green olive tree, and since he was of Jesse, both the stem, the branches, and the root are olive tree.
The stump of Jesse is, actually, a prophecy that agrees with Jeremiah that David's line through Solomon would suffer trauma that removed it from eligibility for the throne of David. This agrees with Jeremiah.
quote:
Jer 22:24 As I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence;
25 And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand of them whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans.
26 And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die.
27 But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return.
28 Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
30 Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
One of the accounts of the patrilineal generations of Jesus acknowledges Joseph's descent from David through Solomon which would prevent Joseph and his sons from ruling in Judah. However, there is a second very different account of patrilineal generations which make Jesus a descendant of David through Nathan.
With two different accounts of Jesus's patrilineal generations, we are forced to acknowledge that one is the account of a daughter of a man which had no sons. (See Nu 27 and 36.)
Joseph was a rod from the stump of the green olive tree. But, Jesus, whose generations through Nathan go all the way back to God, and who came to us as the result of the conception by the Holy Spirit, was the branch from the root of Jesse, the Good olive tree.
Jesus was born King of the Jews, but His own received Him not. Nevertheless, in a court of law, the Good olive tree was declared King of the Jews.
In His crucifixion, the Jews, which were the branches of the green olive tree so naturally related to Jesus, were broken off of the kingdom of Christ.
However, we must remember that the tribes of Israel were branches of the green olive tree during the reign of David and Solomon. They were not broken off until Solomon's son, Rehoboam, was king.
Now, the Good olive tree and the holy Root of David, is receiving the branches broken off of the the stump of the wild (Solomonic) olive tree.
This Jesus is the root of Jesse about which Paul writes to the Romans.
quote:
Ro 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Of course, he was citing the prophecy from that same eleventh chapter of Isaiah to which I drew attention above.
quote:
10 ¶ And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Consider Paul's interpretation of Isaiah. He which shall rise to reign over the gentiles is he which shall stand for an ensign of the people. "In him shall the gentiles trust" is "to it shall the gentiles seek".
But look at the context of the fulfillment of this prophecy.
quote:
Is 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
You just can't miss it unless you're trying.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
All very good questions.
Who told you you were Japhethic or Hamitic? When the Israelites got scattered, they were scattered to all of the nations inhabited by the descendants of Japheth and Ham as well as Shem. Therefore, your derivation can not be determined by skin color or geographic location.
Adoption is a theme which pertains to the seed of Abraham in a particular way. Notice that Paul says that we, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. Isaac was the child of promise being the son of Abraham's loins- not as an adopted son.
quote:
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Hear, we see that we have been adopted into God's family- not Abraham's.
quote:
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Here, again, the adoption pertains to the children of God.
quote:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Here, too, God predestined us unto the adoption of children to Himself according to the same terms that pertain to Judah. We are the seed of Abraham. No one gets adopted into Abraham's seed.
Please do not feel challenged when I address the sovereignty of God in his expression of election concerning Israel and Judah. No dipensationalist challenges the concept when we leave the Jews alone as the "chosen people of God".
The untouchable fact is that God has chosen the people upon which He will have mercy. He has chosen to use those people as the people through which He will distribute His counsels to the other nations/gentiles. For us who were but gentiles (though, unbeknownst to us, the seed of Abraham), God keeps His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob by marrying us to His own Son (the Son of David, King of Israel) even as He is willing to do with the Jews.
Thus, through our marriage to Jesus (whether Jew or Greek), we become members of God's family- not "just" Abraham's.
Jewishness and Greekness refer to ethnicity, not racial derivation.
When I say "ethnicity", I am using a word that comes directly from the Greek word "ethnos" which is translated nation, gentiles, people, and heathen. It has Strong's reference number 1484.
See how ethnos is translated, below.
quote:
Ac 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation <1484> of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
Being born of the spirit, a person undergoes a conversion. a change of ethnicity. This occurs wherther one is Jew or Greek. Thus we become citizens of the "holy nation".
quote:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation <1484>, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
This would be the "translation" about which Paul wrote.
quote:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated <3179> us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Now we can recognize the nation to which we have been converted, or translated. We are graffed into the kingdom of God's dear Son. Remember that Jesus was killed for being "King of the Jews".Thus, this Jesus, the Son of David, our great King, is the one who sits over the restored house of David.
quote:
Ac 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
The prohecy that the Apostle James declares fulfilled is found, in it's context, in Amos 9.
quote:
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
As I have pointed out before, Amos is writing this portion of his book to Israel, already having addressed Judah and other nations, by their names, in his first chapter. Thus, the apostles were showing that God was keeping His literal promise to Israel.
As I have been saying, there is nothing but the seed of Abraham in the Kingdom of Christ- whether they be converts from the house of Judah (which was not, at that time in dispersion), or converts from the house of Israel (which was outcast to be scattered among the gentiles eight hundred years before Paul wrote his letter to the Galatians).
What people do not recognize is that a covenant, the way God uses the term, was the constitution which turned a people into a nation- His Kingdom. It defined the terms of His marriage with the people.
His first covenant was with Israel. Then He divorced her with a promise that He would marry her, again. Meanwhile, He married her sister, Judah. (See Hosea, Jer. 3. Isaiah 54.)
In the New Covenant, He provides that the house of Judah and the house of Israel be combined in a single kingdom- Israel.
Isaiah wrote this about the same time Israel went into exile:
quote:
Is 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Jeremiah wrote this near the beginning of the Babylonian captivity of Judah- over a century after Israel had gone into exile:
quote:
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ezekiel wrote this while Judah was still in Babylonian captivity:
quote:
Eze 37:15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Zechariah wrote this after Judah had returned from Babylonian captivity:
quote:
Zech 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.
7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.
8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.
9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.
10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
See how God recognizes Israel as divided into the house of Judah and the house of Joseph? Joseph got the birthright from Jacob who God named Israel. Ephraim was Joseph's youngest son. But, he was the son that got the right hand blessing of Jacob.
All this points out that, even after the Babylonian captivity, Israel was an outcast nation. Judah dwelled in the land. Joseph/Ephraim/Israel did not.
However, the New Covenant writers alluded to this condition, too.
quote:
Jn 11:47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Here, we see that John knew that Jesus was saving more than the one nation of the Jews. For sure, Jesus was dieing for the nation of the Jews. However, He was also dieng in order that he should gather together in one nation the children of God scattered abroad.
Judah was not scattered abroad. Yes, they lived in different cities around the world just as Americans that can afford to do so; but, they retained the right to return to their headquarters in Jerusalem.
Only the children of the tribes of Israel were scattered abroad. And, soon after the Jews began to be converted, they began to be driven from Jerusalem by the unconverted Jews to join the converted gentiles- their outcast brethren of Israel, their new, holy nation.
Thus, we see how the things prophesied by Zechariah, in the eleventh chapter of his book, were fulfilled.
quote:
10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
However, Zechariah's twelfth chapter shows us how the men of Judah rejoin Israel on the day the Lord comes back with New Jerusalem.
He starts out talking about the burden of Israel which, from the previous chapter, we know to be a nation that has no brotherhood with Judah. Then, he speaks of "the inhabitants of Jerusalem". We know, from Galatians 4:26, that our mother is the Jerusalem above. The Israel of God is the "the inhabitants of Jerusalem". We see how the governor's of Judah have a heart change concerning the Lord of hosts, our God. We see that the Lord saves Judah. (God promised to save us, the house of Joseph, in chapter ten.) We see how Jerusalem takes her place again in Jerusalem. We see how those who pierced Jesus see Him and mourn with a mighty mourning.
What a fabulous story of God's faithfulness. What great glory He shall receive as we recognize that He, truly, knows the end from the beginning.
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Eden
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Hello, scythewieldor, good to hear from you again. You wrote: quote:
Thus, when the Holy Spirit calls the converts of Galatia (regardless of their connection to the nation of the Jews), "Abraham's seed" (using the very same phrase Jesus uses when he tells Jews, "I know you are Abraham's seed."), he is forcing us to recognize that the people who were from the gentiles who were becoming a part of the restoration of the house of David were the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In other words, Gentiles could not be Abraham's seed unless they had been descended from Isaac. They cannot be adopted into Abraham's seed.
Hi, scythewieldor, I did not see Galatians 3:28-29 quoted in your Topic post, so I quoted them below: quote:
Galatians 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Dear scythewieldor, the way I had understood vv.28-29 is that IF the people mentioned in vv. 28-29 are IN CHRIST, ONLY THEN are they Abraham's seed.
In other words, we believers, including Japhetic Gentiles, are said to be IN CHRIST, and since Jesus Christ is FROM ISAAC, therefore by being IN CHRIST we are IN ISAAC, by adoption.
And adoption is also a theme in the New Testament:
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.
Romans 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
An interesting question arises here, namely, why would the Gentiles be called a "wild olive tree" if the Gentiles are ethnic Japhetites? In other words, is northern Israel which is in the nations and the diaspora being called "a wild olive tree" or are the Gentiles being called "a wild olive tree"?
On the other hand, it also says: quote:
Isaiah 49:6
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give You for a light to the Gentiles, that You may be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
And this with the Italian Cornelius:[quote]Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And this also:[quote]Romans 3
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, who shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.On the other hand, the prophet seems to say that while in the nations, northern Israel will "lose its way" and "will not remember that they were northern Israel at one time", so that on the outside they are now like Japhetic Gentiles but on the inside northern Israel among the nations constitutes "the wild olive tree"?
So scythwieldor, in your opinion the Japhetic Gentiles and the Hamite Gentiles did not, and never will have, access to salvation?
love, Eden
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Mizpa
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
This belongs over in the false teaching section.
Bump
Posts: 16 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2008
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scythewieldor
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Dear Friends,
When showing that Israel and Judah were separated from each other at the time of the death and resurrection of the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the things that must be provided is the scriptural nexus for the process of the regeneration of the nation of Israel.
quote:
Mt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Lest anyone think that the regeneration is a future thing, I would point out that the word translated "regeneration" shows up only two times in the New Testament. Here is the other place.
quote:
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration <3824>, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
We were saved by the washing of regeneration. It has been done, already.
We have already established from scripture that the twelve tribes of Israel were instantly serving God day and night while Paul was making his defense to Agrippa, and that they were living in dispersion at the time of James.
We have established that the Apostles recognized that they were ruling over the twelve tribes, at the latest, upon the their ruling concerning the situation with Antioch.
However, the level of the reign of the Apostles and elders at Jerusalem can be demonstrated by one scripture.
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Ac 16:4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees <1378> for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
The Apostles and elders at Jerusalem produced decrees. You should look at the rest of the places where this Greek word is used in order to appreciate their authority.
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Lu 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree <1378> from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
Ac 17:7 Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees <1378> of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances <1378>; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances <1378> that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Notice that the only other human authority recognized in the New Testament as a decree-er is a Caesar. Also, notice that decrees/ordinances are tools of judgement.
Never saw that coming, I bet.
How did the twelve get from disciples to judging the twelve tribes of Israel?
The answer is in the The Last Supper.
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Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
Mr 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Lk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
In each passage, we find that Jesus was not going to ratify the New Covenant by drinking the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God was present.
The Jews refused to accept Jesus, who was born "KIng of the Jews", as their King. However, they supported the notion before Rome's representative, Pontus Pilate, as they sought to have Jesus killed. In every gospel there is an account of the recognition of Jesus, in a court of law, as the "King of the Jews".
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Mt 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Mr 15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Lu 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Joh 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Thus, Rome's representative made Jesus King of the Jews. Other Roman representatives had done that with other men, before. And, they would do it afterwards.
And, it was legally binding.
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Jn 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Now, all know how Jesus refused the wine at some point in His crucifixion. However, few have told how the fruit of the vine was offered to Jesus twice during that time- once before and once after the sentence of Pilate was made public.
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Mat 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.
27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27:48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
Mr 15:23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
Luke tells only of the first offering of the fruit of the vine.
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Lk 22:36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
22:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
John, though is the clearest concerning the drink after the public sentencing.
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Jn 19:19 ¶ And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Jesus ratified the New Covenant, regenerating the nation of Israel, and he died.
Jesus, now, sits on the throne of His glory.
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Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Jesus was raised from the dead to sit on His throne.
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Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
The sum, the final tally, Jesus has overcome and began sitting with His Father in His throne even before the The Revelation was written.
As Jesus reigns in heaven, we sit with Christ there.
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Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Eph 2:4 ¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Jesus sits in heavenly places, and though God takes ages to shew the exceeding riches of His grace toward us through Christ Jesus, we spend our time in the flesh on earth comforted that we are not of this world. We sit together with Christ Jesus in heavenly places,
What sweet comfort, this communion of the Holy Ghost.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Friends,
I knew that you couldn't agree with me, yet, when I started writing on this mystery. Even so, I must keep writing, or your assertion that I am a false teacher would have no rebuttal.
Please, at least, scan my writings. The promises of God and how He kept them can not be believed until they are heard.
Though you are a Christian, unless you have heard and heard all of the things spoken by the prophets and apostles, you can not believe all the things spoken by the prophets and apostles. Denominations are set up to give Christians mini-donuts of Bible in, at most, a few 30 minute sessions per week.
The Bread of Life is a HUGE loaf requiring the one who fears the Lord to study and meditate on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
With that, I will keep my promise about the "Blindness of Israel".
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Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
This passage MUST be read with the the connecting words properly recognized. For instance, "For as ye in times past...even so they...."
In other words, the condition of Judah in that they have not believed what they had heard and, thus, are, at this time, in need of mercy is the same as our condition of unbelief in the things we had heard, in times past, resulting in our need for mercy.
That condition could be met by no one but Israel.
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Am 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?
This was written against the whole family the Lord had brought out of Egypt. However, it is written inside of a message to Israel recognized as a different nation than Judah.
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Am 1:4 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, and their lies caused them to err, after the which their fathers have walked:
5 But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
6 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
7 That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:
8 And they lay themselves down upon clothes laid to pledge by every altar, and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.
In fact, the rest of The Book of Amos is written to Israel- not Judah. Read this:
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Am 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
The fulfillment of this prophecy is recognized by the Apostles and elders at Jerusalem, settling the crisis of Antioch- a church of gentile Christians.
This prepares us to understand the Greek text of Romans 11:25.
Actually, the first part is rendered sufficiently well-all the way up to 'wise in your own conceits; that..". However, "blindness" is not even close to a good rendering.
The Greek word that is rendered "blindness" has the Strong's reference number 4457. It is porosis, or, phonetically, po’-ro-sis.
You may recognize that as part of the name of the condition of bones when they start losing calcium, osteoporosis. In that condition, bone material leaves causing voids in the bones to enlarge. Thus, porosis means "porous".
(Much technical terminology is built using the Greek language because it is a dead language making it immune to mutation. The meanings of Greek words do not change, anymore. God was smart enough to take advantage of the death of that language- if He didn't kill it Himself just to make our Bible interpretation more secure.)
Thus, "blindness" should be "porosity".
The next word in the Greek text is rendered "in". It is apo. It is translated "from" 393 times- "in", only 6.
The next word in the Greek text is rendered "part". It is merous. Merous is a tweak on the word, meros- a noun of the second declension. It means "allotment". The -ous ending of this word with the word, apo, determines that it should be translated in the plural- not the singular.
So far, we have "...a void from allotments...".
The next two words in the Greek text are "to Israel"- the Israel. However, the interpretations have the third word of the Greek text rendered before "to Israel". That word is "gegonen", or "be".
If that inversion is not made, we can have "...a void from the Israel allotments is...".
The next word in the Greek text is "acris" and it is well put.
Now we come to "ou to pleroma"- "which the piece that is brought in to fill up the void". In fact, pleroma is translated "that which is put in to fill up".
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Mt 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up <4138> taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mr 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up <4138> taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.
Thus, so far we have "...a void from the Israel allotments is until which the piece which is brought in to fill the void...".
This brings us to "ton ethnon"- from the nations", and "eiseltha", "come in".
This is the rendering I propose- "a void from the Israel allotments is until which the piece which is brought in to fill the void comes from the nations".
This sets up the next passage, "And so all Israel shall be saved"- not just Judah.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Friends,
The passage from Romans 11, out of which people are always pulling the "blindness" statement, is very abused. I have not heard anyone teach this passage all the way through in a way that regards any kind of flow. The Holy Spirit is much smarter than the interpretations of this passage would indicate.
Starting with the assertion that "Gentiles are just branches grafted into the olive tree", very little colateral evidence is presented for intelligent interpretation.
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Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Did you know that the olive tree picture was from the Old Testament?
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Ps 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
David says he is like a green olive tree. This is in keeping with other prophecies of scripture which make kingdoms as trees, and their citizens branches. Thus, the house of David had been a green olive tree upon which had grown the children of the house of Israel as well as the children of the house of Judah.
In the days of Rehoboam, son of Solomon, ten branches of Israel were removed from that olive tree. One branch of Israel, Benjamin, was left for the sake of Jerusalem.
When Jesus was born, He was the Son of David. He was born "King of the Jews". Thus, He was the Good olive tree of the New Covenant.
Notice the change from "green" to "good".
Consider the change to the house of David that was introduced by the birth of Jesus. In the New Testament, we find two very different accounts of the patrilineal generations of Jesus. One is through Solomon, son of David. The other is through Nathan, son of David.
We are forced to accept that one of the accounts is presented because Mary was a daughter of a man which had no sons. In that case, a man's inheritance would be passed to his daughter with the stipulation that the daughter marry someone from her own house. (Nu 27 and Nu 36)
Thus, the green olive tree was through David's son Solomon (a son born of adultery and murder), but the good olive tree was through the daughter of a descendant of David's son Nathan and the Holy Spirit.
When His own rejected Him, the Kingdom of God was taken away from the Jews and given to a nation that produced the fruit of it. The natural branches of the kingdom of God were broken off. And we were graffed into it.
But notice that we, also, were broken off of an olive tree. We are the descendants of the children of Israel which were broken off of that olive tree through Solomon. And we have been graffed into that olive tree that is by the fathering of the Spirit
What a mercy.
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yahsway
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posted
Not necessarily WildB. Paul did quote Hosea in Romans 9:24 and Pauls quote was referrring to the Gentiles.
"Even us whom He called(Us is the Jews)not of the Jews only, BUT also of the Gentiles? as He (God) says in Hosea: (referring to the 10 Northern tribes, NOT the Jews)
"I will call them My people, who were not My people ect...
Peter saw this as well 1Peter 2:10
Hosea 6:8 "Ephraim has "Mixed himself among the peoples ect...
Hosea 8:8 Israel (Ephraim) is swallowed up; Now they are among the Gentiles.
12 I have written for him the great things of My law, But they were considered a "strange thing."
9:3 They shall NOT dwell in the Lords land, but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and shall eat "unclean things in Assyria."
The Book of Hosea is mainly about the 10 Northern Tribes. It speaks of the House of Ephraim but also speaks of the House of Judah.
All Jews are Israelites BUT not all Israelites are Jews.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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scythewieldor
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Dear friend,
In Romans 9:8-22, Paul shows us how God has determined to show mercy according to His own counsel. This process excluded Esau and Pharaoh. However, it included certain vessels of mercy which God "afore prepared unto glory".
Then, Paul takes up this "called" point again.
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Ro 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Did you see that? Paul says that the Christians, both the those from among the Jews and from among the gentiles, were partaking in God's mercy on an equal basis as the result of God's calling. Both were afore prepared unto glory on an equal basis.
No one would argue with the assertion that the Jews were called unto glory: but the gentiles? And on an equal basis?
Thus the next scripture is Paul's support that the gentiles were called to glory in the same way as the Jews.
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25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
The gentiles- not the Jews- were called "not My people". Now the gentiles were being called "the sons of the living God" and, that, in the very lands of the gentiles. By saying this, Paul directs our attention to Hosea where we find that Israel and Judah had different destinies.
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Ho 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
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scythewieldor
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Dear friends,
The mystery concerning the very evident Old Testament difference between Israel and Judah is great. Many people have a hard time believing all the things spoken by the prophets. Besides that, the Concision has a vested interest in keeping those things obscure. They have been doing so since the days of Paul.
Thus, great violence has been done to the Greek text when interpreting passages concerning Israel. For instance:
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Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
The emboldened portion is, literally, "For not all the things out of Israel are this Israel".
Thus, we know that what Paul says about the Jews is that they are a nation of Israelites. However, they are not all of the Israelites. As we know, there were ten tribes of Israelites scattered to and swallowed by the gentiles.
Look at the next line.
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7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
In the same way that the nation of the Jews was not all of Israel, the seed of Abraham are not all of Abraham's children. However, since the seed of Abraham is called through Isaac, that calling, for which there can be no repentance, extended to both of the houses which came from Israel- not just the Jews.
By this, Paul makes it clear that the promise to Abraham could be kept ONLY through the lineage of Isaac. Thus, when the Holy Spirit calls the converts of Galatia (regardless of their connection to the nation of the Jews), "Abraham's seed" (using the very same phrase Jesus uses when he tells Jews, "I know you are Abraham's seed."), he is forcing us to recognize that the people who were from the gentiles who were becoming a part of the restoration of the house of David were the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In other words, Gentiles could not be Abraham's seed unless they had been descended from Isaac. They can not be adopted into Abraham's seed.
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