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Author
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Topic: Mystery of Israel and Judah
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Believers,
I try to be very careful about the things I write. The thing that I wrote about being pricked in the heart is certainly true.
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36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
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Eden
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posted
Hi, scythewieldor, you also wrote (you write a lot so I have more than one comment): quote:
In other words, when Peter saw that these gentiles were speaking in tounges, he knew that God had shown him something significant just as he had said in Acts 2.
Please help me, in the phrase "he knew that God had shown him something significant just as he had said in Acts 2", plz identify who "him" is? Is "him" Cornelius or is "him" Peter?
thank you,
Eden
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Eden
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posted
scythewieldor wrote quote:
If you have a prick in your heart when you break the law of God, and, if that motivates you to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, you are of one of the houses of Israel, and Abraham's seed according to promise.
I had a prick in my heart, and the doctors called it "angina" instead.
But repeating what you said quote:
If you have a prick in your heart when you break the law of God, and, if that motivates you to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, you are of one of the houses of Israel, and Abraham's seed according to promise.
The Bible teaches that man must be born again before they will get a prick in the heart. Before I became a Christian, I did not give a hoot if I broke the law of God, did not think about it again. It was only AFTER I was born again that my sins caused "a prick in my heart" strong enough for me to say, "I'm sorry, Lord".
The Bible teaches that it is the written Word of God, on audio or visual or on paper, that the Word of God is the one which "causes that prick in the heart", not "breaking the law of God" before one is saved???
love, Eden
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Eden
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posted
Hi, scythewieldor, your posts are so long (mine are too sometimes, so...), but I have trouble following all of the parts, I'd have to read so much.
You wrote quote:
As I have posted so many times, God did not make promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning the seeds of other men- except in the indirect way.
Please, without a long response, would you answer this question for me: "Does the LORD EVER anywhere in the Bible OFFER SALVATION TO GENTILES who are members of Japheth, Ham, and non-Isaac Shemites?
thank you, Eden
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
Judges 9
[8] The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
[9] But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
[10] And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
[11] But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
[12] Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us.
[13] And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
[14] Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us.
[15] And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
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posted
Dear Believers,
All I have is the testimony of the One who is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
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Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The sheep of the other fold had no understanding of Jewish ritual, at all, including circumcision. Indeed, it would not be necessary for them in the New Covenant.
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Jer 3:11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
12 ¶ Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
13 Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
As I have posted so many times, God did not make promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob concerning the seeds of other men- except in the indirect way.
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Ge 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
In the New Testament, Paul limits Abraham's seed in such a way that it can not even mean Ishmael or the son's of Abraham's second wife, Keturah.
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Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
The seed of Abraham does not include all of Abraham's children. Likewise, not all of Abraham's seed are included in the children of God.
So, Abraham's seed according to the flesh were those who had cofidence that their status as circumcised, lamb-killing Jews set them above all other nations. Abraham's seed according to the promise are those who feared God, believing the words of the prophets and submitting themselves to the commandments of God (per Ro 16:25). Thus, they were prepared by the prick in their hearts to recognize their need of a Saviour, and the Christ when He came.
However, the dynamic of the prophets and commandments that was working in the Jews which were being converted was a little different from the one working in the gentiles which were being saved.
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Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
This effect of being a "law unto themselves" shows "the work of the law written in their hearts".
Who wrote the law in their hearts?
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Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
This, of course, was written long after the house of Israel went into exile.
If you have a prick in your heart when you break the law of God, and, if that motivates you to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, you are of one of the houses of Israel, and Abraham's seed according to promise.
To let you know just what amazed the converts from Judaism, look at this.
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Ac 10 44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
In other words, when Peter saw that these gentiles were speaking in tounges, he knew that God had shown him something significant just as he had said in Acts 2.
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Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Joel's prophecy went like this.
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Jl 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
God says that Israel shall know that He is in the midst of Israel. The apostles were witnesses of Jesus that the Father had been, in Jesus, in the midst of Israel.
God says, after that, He will pour out His Spirit on all flesh.
All flesh means all flesh, and we read of a day when animals behave better than they do, commonly, now.
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Is 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.
We know that serpents began behaving better with Paul.
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Ac 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.
5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
After talking about pouring His Spirit out on all flesh, He speaks of signs that will show up in "your" people.
"Your" is the second person plural pronoun being applied to Israel. The sons and daughters of Israel would start prophesying. The old men of Israel would start dreaming dreams. The young men of Israel would start having visions.
When we come to Joel 2:29, we see the definite article "the" pointing out particular servants and handmaids. See how Peter renders this one.
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Ac 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Look at the very first place in the Bible "my servant" is used.
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Ge 26:24 And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham’s sake.
The seed of a servant is the servant of his Master. Thus, when Cornelius began speaking in tounges, it was obvious that God was keeping his promise to a child of the house of Israel, and one of Abraham's seed.
So, concerning Cornelius, nothing about his conversion was according to the statistics.
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Ac 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
However, the few stats that we have about men in bright clothing seem to indicate that they come to Israelites.
Jesus has not changed. He knows a dog from the children.
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Mr 7:25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
When the Bible says "Syrophenician by nation", here, the Greek word for "nation" is "genos".
You don't have to be very intuitive to see where this is going. It is the same word that is translated "kind", below.
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Mt 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Have you ever seen a bad child that just loved tormenting "pets"?
The kingdom of God has a good effect on every kind- dogs and children. It is a very good thing to be a dog in the Lord's house- just as the Syrophoenician woman believed it would be.
It's better to be a child.
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
bought blood: the mystery which is referred to by that verse is the mystery of maturity. It is the mystery of the full revelation of who HE is to us. That is the mystery! Don't bark up the wrong tree. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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posted
dear Bloodbought, it would be nice if you could keep you individual posts a bit shorter or "piecemeal"; you state so much each time that it becomes "overwhelming" to follow.
But for what it's worth, I grant that all the nations on earth, including Jacob and Esau, are also called "nations" 1484 and 1471.
And in addition, I grant that Israel was further divided into the house of Israel-Ephraim and into the house of Israel-Judah. Fine.
So let's look at this issue from the circumcision and the uncircumcision:
Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Eden here: why would they of the circumcision have been astonished if they knew that who was being saved were also part of the circumcision (if they were of the house of Israel-Ephraim)?
Acts 11:2
And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him.
Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, who shall justify the circumcision by faith, AND uncircumcision through faith.
Romans 4:9
Comes this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was committed to Peter;
Galatians 2:8
(For He who wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles.)
Bloodbought, the dispersed of the house of Israel-Ephraim were also part of the circumcision, were they not?
So does your whole case rest on the idea that since Hosea (I think it was him) had said that the house of Israel-Ephraim would be "so mixed among the nations" that "they lost their way" or "lost their remembrance of who they were", that therefore also Paul and the Apostles at Jerusalem did NOT know "who was really of the house of Israel-Ephraim among the Gentiles and who was NOT of the house of Israel-Ephraim among the Gentiles", and that therefore both Paul and the Apostles at Jerusalem simply "went ahead" and "called all of them Gentiles" and "called all of them 'of the uncircumcision'"?
Doesn't that fly into the face of the deep distaste that the Jews in the 1st cent. A.D. had for "all things Gentile", so much so that Peter and those of the circumcision were "astounded" when God also poured out the Holy Spirit on Cornelius and on those assembled in the house of Cornelius?
Acts 10
1There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that fears him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
44 And while Peter yet spoke these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word {at Cornelius's house}.
45 And they of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Lastly, Bloodbought, you would further have to contend that, eventhough Cornelius was of the Italian band, EVERYONE who had assembled in the house of Cornelius, ALL his friends and acquaintances, were "underneath" it all actually members of the house of Israel-Ephraim:
Acts 10
24 And the morrow after that, they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and he had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
Now I know that God can do miracles, but what are the odds that EVERYONE in that house was underneath a member of the house of Israel-Ephraim, especially after in the vision Peter had seen:
Acts 10
11 And {Peter} saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners ...
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.
15 Then the voice spoke to him again the second time, What God has cleansed, that call not you common.
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
There is a mystery which has been kept secret from the foundation of the world. It is the mystery of Him that is of power to stablish us according to Paul's gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ. Accordingly, the mystery is revealed and made manifest. And by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, this mystery is made known to all nations/gentiles
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Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations <1484> for the obedience of faith:
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Mr 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness (porousness) in part (from allotments) is happened to Israel, until the fulness (that which is brought in to fill the hole) of (from) the Gentiles be come in.
There is a mystery concerning Israel and Judah just as there was a mystery of the faith which Martin Luther helped us understand...
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1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
...and, just as there was a mystery of iniquity which was working nineteen and a half centuries ago.
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2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Now, I had hoped that we could begin to speak the same thing and think the same thing when I showed how that, in both testaments, the word that is interpreted "gentiles" is, also, translated "nations".
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Ge 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles <01471> divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations <01471>.
Jacob and Esau were two nations in the womb of Rebecca. If you want to use "gentile" instead of "nation", it is OK for this one Hebrew word does both.
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Ge 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations <01471> are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Jacob was a gentile. And, Esau was a different gentile.
If you are consistent in translating the one word that is translated "nations" and "gentiles" as "gentiles", then, pay attention to the result.
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Ge 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a gentile <01471> and a company of gentiles <01471> shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
Ge 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of gentiles <01471>.
The weakness in language is that a connotation of a word may be forced, or a word can pick up a coloquialism. When that word is part of a translation, the translation becomes corruptible by the new connotation or coloquialism.
In other words, the translation becomes vulnerable to interpretation according to that which was not the intended use of the word.
English is changing. Greek is not.
Of course, since Hebrew has been "resurrected" from the dead languages, translation of the Hebrew texts may become wulnerable to a lot of that kind of corruption. Maybe, that is the reason that the Holy spirit prompted Paul to quote from the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament), instead.
Now, as much as this might reflect upon the "sexism" of God, it must be presented. The Old Testament pattern of the incorporation of non-Israelites into God's people is limited to women who presented themselves to the seed of Abraham for bearing Abraham's seed- Ruth and Rahab.
If that mode of increasing Abraham's seed continued while the Israelites were in the nations/gentiles, you can easily see how "The Supplanter" would, in time, replace the non-Israelite people completely.
How much shorter will that work become under the sovereignty of Almighty God? Indeed, in the, almost, seventy ("Seventy"? Did I say "Seventy"? Why, yes I did!) generations that have passed since Israel went into exile, where could you step and not be stepping upon those whose number is as the sand of the sea?
However, Manasseh began coming back from exile (as Jewish, of course) in 2006. That would be (according to the timeline that is available to me the veracity of which is not as sure as scripture), at the end of their sixty-ninth generation, people of Manasseh, (a half tribe of which went into exile with the Reubenites and Gadites about thirty two years before the rest of the non-Jewish Israelites went into exile) went back home.
Why would they go back as Jews? They claimed to be Muslims, but they had Jewish customs and the name of an Israelite tribe. Since the Jews would not let a non-Jew move into their land (let alone help and publicize it), it may that God allowed it in order to help wake us up as to signs of the time. (Speculation, of course.)
Is it time for the nations/gentiles of Ephraim to think about the return to Lebanon and Gilead? Gilead, as I recall, was the inheritance of half of the tribe of Manasseh.
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Zec 10:7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.
8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.
9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.
10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away.
12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD.
What if the present plight of the global economy resulted in a global solution which incorporated some kind of "666" recognition system that made it impossible for Christians to buy and sell? Could that event force Christians to begin to resort to communities run according to the pattern shown us in the first four chapters of Acts? If so, would the people around us be afraid of us and have favor toward us as happened then?
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Ac 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
If the kings of the countries around us fear and have favor for us, would they not be ready to do as the kings in this prophecy in order to get us out of their midst?:
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Is 49:13 ¶ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.
15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
18 ¶ Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
24 ¶ Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
Notice how Isaiah talks, as Zechariah, about the return of the children of Zion in a time of dried up seas.
quote:
Is 50:1 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.
2 Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.
Who knows?
I do know this. Jesus of Nazareth is the seed of Abraham to which the land from the great river Euphrates to the river of Egypt belongs by inheritance. The bondwoman and her son will not share the inheritance with Jesus. And, we who believe are joint heirs with Jesus.
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Eden
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scythewieldor, I was also "concerned" about the very title of your Topic, MYSTERY of ....
Since when is that a mystery? It's not a mystery in that the Bible explains it all, but of course it does require that Christians READ the Bible intensely to understand the difference, for instance, between the northern house of Israel-Ephraim and the house of Israel-Judah and what their respective promises are.
But a "Mystery of Israel and Judah" it is not. It is certainly no "secret kabala".
love, Eden
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Eden
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hello, scythewieldor, how are u today? So you think that NO GENTILES will be saved of Japheth, Ham, or from the Shemites who are NON-Peleg-Terah-Iaac Shemites?
So IYO when the New Testament says that the Lord will "ALSO be a light to the Gentiles", that in your mind means "the house of Israel" or "the house of Judah" who are Hosea-scattered among the nations?
May I ask, are there instances in the New Testament where "the Gentiles" are mentioned but where the reference is clearly to "real" Gentiles?
Let's look at a few verses with the phrase to the Gentiles below.
Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Matthew 20:19
And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mark 10:33
Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles.
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles ranted repentance unto life.
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Acts 26:23
That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Romans 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.
If I may ask, scythewieldor, do ANY of those refs about refer to GENTILES of Japheth, Ham, or from the Shemites who are NON-Peleg-Terah-Iaac Shemites, or not?
love, Eden
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Michael Harrison
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scytheweildor, you have an understanding, but is it the Spirit? Is it the mind of Christ? Determinations can be made about scripture which do not bear out the truth, though they sound really, really good. Often the concept we have has to simmer, like stew. When we look back later we wonder how we thought it. Some people call that growth. Fair enough. But one day we make a discovery which propels us into maturity.
- 1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
In the mean time we are trying to discover our spiritual legs. There may be some intriguing things in our journey, and the journey of others, but only that which places us securely on the Rock, truly opens our eyes. The rest is speculation.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
In verse 23, Paul reminds us that he is talking on the subject of God's sovereignty concerning the objects of His mercy: "that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy".
In verse 24, Paul defines the term, "vessels of mercy " by saying "even us". By using the first person plural, Paul includes himself. No one has reported that they have seen Paul breathing for a very long time.
Paul, in reference to that age-old "us", says "whom He hath called" in verse 24. "Hath" is passed tense.
Paul says, "not of the Jews only, but also of the gentiles".
The "but also" asserts that the nature of the calling of the gentiles is equivalent to the nature of the calling of the Jews. An assertion like that requires justification which Paul provides when he writes "As he sayeth" in verse 25. The "he" of that phrase should, probably, be treated as meaning the One who called. Thus, the One who called also said in Osee (Hosea) " I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
Now, the ONLY thing we have to show is that there is a second witness in the documents of the New Covenant that this Hosea prophecy has been fulfilled in the converts to the New Covenant and we know that the gentiles are the outcasts of Israel.
quote:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Obviously, Peter can not be talking to Judah because he is addressing a people who, in times past, was not a people. In fact, the phrase "not a people" was used to define the Ephraim-led portion of Israel.
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Is 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah’s son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Voila! At least the prophecy to Israel (which is not the same as Judah in Hosea) is, absolutely, fulfilled in the conversion of gentiles.
However, Paul believes, as do I, that a thing is confirmed in the mouth of two or three witnesses.
Since, in Paul's days, Peter's writings were not broadly recognized as scripture, Paul wants to produce more evidence from the prophets. Therefore, he adds the evidence of the cry of Isaiah to Israel, saying, "Esaias also crieth concerning Israel". The prophecy that Paul says has been fulfilled by the calling of the, then living, converts from among the gentiles comes from Isaiah 10:22 which I provide below with the verses that appear closest to it.
quote:
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
This is part of a prophecy directed to the ten tribe northern nation of Israel which had just been taken into exile by the Assyrian. Thus, the only way to interpret this statement is that Paul saw the converts from the gentiles as the remnant of Israel that is to return.
The third witness that Paul provides in Romans 9:29 (and which I, in that post, did not) is from Isaiah 1.
quote:
Is 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
This prophecy is to all Israel- not just the ten tribes of the north which, at this point in Isaiah's ministry, are not exiled. It is about Judah and Jerusalem.
quote:
Is 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem...
The "rulers of Sodom" and the "people of Gomorrah" in this prophecy is, obviously, Judah and Jerusalem. Thus, it is prophesied that Judah and Jerusalem were going to be ruined to the degree that, if it were not for a remnant of Israel left by the Lord of hosts, nothing of Israel of the would be left.
The sinful nation of Judah and Jerusalem are so committed to revolution against God that He has decided to quit striking her. Already, she has been stricken so much that she is covered with unhealed wounds.
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Is 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Sure enough, the kingdom of Judah is as certainly dead as the rulers of Sodom. Jesus was the last that qualified, and the Jews (themselves expressing their Isaiah-witnessed commitment to revolution) said, "We have no king but Caesar."
However, since Jesus drank of the fruit of the vine on the cross, the Kingdom of His Father was new on the day He died, the New Covenant was ratified on that day, and the twelve tribe holy nation, The Commonwealth of the Israel of God, was regenerated on that day.
About a generation from that time (the time it took the children of Israel to get from Egypt to the Promised Land), the temple service that made Judaism viable was totally, and forever, eradicated. It was completely replaced with the service of the Christians- the Temple of God.
The sons of the bondwoman have been cast out just as Paul said was supposed to happen. Indeed, the city where our Lord was crucified is known, spiritually, as Sodom.
quote:
Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
We are the remnant of Israel, God's people, and those who call themselves Jews have yet to join us under that title. They have not obtained mercy. They will. And the day they do, Jesus will come back.
Until they do, Abraham's seed will keep on dying. Those who have believed on the Lord will be resurrected unto glory.
More prophecies have been fulfilled than you have been taught. Some have not. People are still in their graves.
Even if I die in the United States, I will come out of my grave and take my place in the land that has been promised to Abraham's seed.
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Eden
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hello, scythewieldor, greetings. You used these scriptture from Romans quote:
Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Where does it say that the above has already happened? In other words I currently believe that some Gentiles (from Japheth, Ham and non-Isaac Shem) will also be saved, plus the house of Israel and the house of Judah that is scattered among the nations will be saved.
But in Ezekiel 37 it seems to me that the members of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah will "come up out of their graves" and "go to the land of Israel".
Ezekiel 37
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Are you saying that this has already happened, or not? I personally do not think that Ezek.37:12 is a fulfillment of the current aliya into Israel. The people who now are in Israel did not come up out of their graves. To me that would be such a big event that all the Gentiles will see it and know about it:
Ezekiel 37
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
That has not happened yet, has it?
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
To whom was Isaiah talking when he said this?
quote:
Is 10:20 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
The whole prophecy from which this was taken begins in Isaiah 9:
quote:
:8 ¶ The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.
9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart,
This prophecy was to the Ephraim-led portion of Israel as the king of Assyria was taking that portion of the stock of Abraham to some place north of Israel. Therefore, this prophecy has nothing to do with Judah.
Paul says that it was fulfilled when gentiles became Christians.
quote:
Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Romans 9:28 is from the Septuagint version of this verse in that same Isaiah 10 passage:
quote:
:23 For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
Who is afraid to accept the word of an apostle, who saw Jesus, that a prophecy to Israel has been fulfilled? Who is afraid to give God glory for doing the thing He said He would do? Does the fear of the Jews still work on people today?
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Michael Harrison
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I am a gentile. The implication is that I am not descended from the stock of Abraham. If - I were stock of Abraham, Paul and Peter must needs 'not' to have been sent to the heathen. I am a fortunate one for whom Christ died, so that I could benefit from His death, who was 'not stock'. And he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but who in cricumcision of the heart, is! That is the requirement; not being stocky. Socky? Better yet, rocky!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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Hi, scythewieldor, you wrote quote:
Adoption brings us into God's family. However, this adoption is required for those who are recognized by all as being descended from Abraham according to the flesh.
Here's how I think this works. Remember the argument that Paul used about Abraham paying tithes to the king/priest of Salem, and how Paul said that Levi paid tithes by being as yet in the loins of Abraham (i.e., not born yet)?
Similarly, God crucified the "old man" (all that belonged to the first Adam) on the cross with Jesus and so condemned and "got rid of" all that was of the first Adam.
But thru God's foreknowledge God knew who would be accepting Jesus dying in their place, and those people God put "in Christ" on the cross who is of the seed of Abraham, while the non-believers were put on the cross but NOT "in Christ".
Then Christ died, BUT Christ rose again, and those people (the Christians) whom God had put "in Christ" also rose with Christ and were now Christ's seed, just as Levi was in the loins of Abraham and gave tithes to the king/priest of Salem.
As a result we are Christ's seed and are of the seed of Abraham, whether we were of the original stock via Isaac or whether, by an act of God, we who were NOT of the original stock of Isaac, were sovereignly put "in Christ" by God, and all we have to do is believe by faith that God actually did this, and as a result, we are of the seed of Abraham, thru Christ who is of the seed of Isaac.
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I love the subject of adoption. God loves the subject of adoption for, if it were not for adoption, He would have only one Son.
quote:
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Adoption brings us into God's family. However, this adoption is required for those who are recognized by all as being descended from Abraham according to the flesh.
quote:
Ro 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
If adoption pertained to those who were Israelites and, already, Abraham's seed as recognized by Jesus, then the adoption, as it pertains to us, must NOT be an adoption into Abraham's family.
No. Though they had started out God's children...
quote:
De 14:1 Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
...they had lost their privileged place in the family of God by their failure to keep the Old Covenant law.
However, that failure could not undo the promise made to Abraham concerning his seed. Therefore, because God had sworn by Himself, He made a way to replace the lost children among the sons.
quote:
Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
The Father loves the subject of adoption for by adoption the children of both houses of Israel call Him "Father".
quote:
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Jesus came to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons to call God "Father". Only the children of the two houses of Israel were born under the law.
quote:
Ep 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Thus, we who were born under the law, whether children of the house of Judah or the children of the house of Israel scattered abroad, are redeemed and restored to our favored position as the children of God.
Dear Believers, when Paul, in Romans 9:25-29 justifies his assertion that the calling of the gentile converts was equal to the calling of the converts from Judaism, he is using the prophecies that recognize the different destinies of the two houses of Israel.
quote:
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
First, he uses a prophecy from Hosea to Israel (where Israel is recognized as a separate entity from Judah) to do it.
Then, he refers to the cry of Isaiah to Israel (using the very name of Israel, no less) from a prophecy to Israel right after the Assyrian had taken the Israelites into exile. Look at the wording of that prophecy in the Old Covenant.
quote:
Is 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return:
A remnant of the exiled people of Israel shall return.
Even more, Paul makes it clear that if the seed of Israel had not been found among the gentiles, Israel would be as Sodom and Gomorrha because of the rebellion Isaiah recognizes in the sinful nation, Judah.
quote:
Is 1:1 ¶ The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
2 ¶ Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.
3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
Without the remnant of exiled Israel, the return of which from the gentiles Isaiah prophesied, the end of the kingdom of Judah would have been a demise to be compared with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. The Jews would have seen to it.
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Michael Harrison
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Pay particular attention to this verse:
- Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The promises were to Abraham, 'and his seed'. Therefore we become adopted in, and become heirs according to HIS seed, when we believe. We are therefore then, 'seed' of Abraham by rebirth, by Jesus.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
scyth3 announced: quote:
One born out of the bowels of Abraham would be his heir.
quote:
and.... quote:
In what way can we be Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise, but be excluded from the land of Abraham?
Who is excluded from the land of promise?
*We are certainly not of the bowels of Abraham. Therefore there must be another way! It is by 'promise'.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law (doing to accomplish), it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
*God gave it to Abraham by promise. So also does HE give it to us by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law (by 'doing' the law).
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
*The promise is 'given' to them who believe.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
*And what made it possible? Belief, which receives. Given! Believe! Promise! You are Abraham's seed if you receive the promise, because you 'believe', because it is 'given'.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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WildB wrote (apparently to scythewieldor): quote:
"So why do you Act as though you are some great teacher sent to this board?
These kind of statements are not helpful, WildB. On some level everyone here thinks their stuff is great.
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
The children of the Kingdom that have already been thrust out were the Jews.
quote:
Mat 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
ead of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Kindoms were, sometimes, called trees by the prophets: Nebuchadnezzer by Daniel, for instance. The Jews are the branches of the kingdom of David with David describing himself in Psalms.
quote:
Ps 52:8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
Read the rest of that Psalm.
quote:
1 ¶ Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.
2 Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.
4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue.
5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah.
6 ¶ The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him:
7 Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.
8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.
When Pontius Pilate, the legal representative of the Roman authority which the Jews claimed to be their only king, sentenced Jesus to die, he did it making Jesus, the Son of David who was born King of the Jews but rejected by His own, King of the Jews.
Pontius Pilate had the power to pronounce a man "King of the Jews".
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Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
So, Jesus died as the only Jew ever to have earned the promises of Deuteronomy 28. He, also, died with the legal title to the throne of David.
All this went into inheritance for His children. Unfortunately, Jesus died having no wife but the Kingdom of Israel the covenant for the regeneration of which He ratified on the cross when He drank the fruit of the vine.
The third post of this thread fills out the scriptural nexus for this event.
Next point:
The prophets spoke of the Israelites as sheep. Look at this one.
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Ps 80:1 ¶ Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.
2 Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh stir up thy strength, and come and save us.
3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
The Shepherd of Israel leads Joseph like a flock- not Judah. Notice how the Shepherd of Israel saves Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh- the three tribes of Rachel and two of which were descended from Joseph who was the older brother of Benjamin.
Jesus, who is THE Lion of the tribe of Judah and the root of David, is the only survivor of the kingdom of Judah. (The rest who call themselves Jews are liars, for they are, truly, the synagog of Satan, having rejected their King and having resorted to Caesar.) Jesus has undertaken the re-gathering of the lost sheep of the house of Israel for the re-population of the twelve tribes of the regenerated Commonwealth of Israel.
Ezekiel describes how the Jews refused to re-gather Israel, and how the Lord, Himself, promised to do the job.
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Eze 11:14 ¶ Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
15 Son of man, thy brethren, even thy brethren, the men of thy kindred, and all the house of Israel wholly, are they unto whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, Get you far from the LORD: unto us is this land given in possession.
16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel said this about the time that Judah went into Babylonian captivity- long after God had begun scattering Israel among the gentiles.
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Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered.
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.
7 ¶ Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock;
9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.
You see that the tabernacle of David, the first family of the inhabitants of Jerusalem, was under covenant obligation to provide a shepherd for Israel. Beginning with Solomon, the shepherds of Israel fed themselves rather than the sheep.
When the sheep were scattered, the shepherds did not concern themselves. Jesus visited, and assessed the Jews,- though they did not know the hour of their visitation. He found them wanting.
This thread contains one of my posts, made Oct. 10 at 6:33 am, that shows the acknowledgement of the men who wrote the New Testament documents that the Israel of God went from a future potential to a present reality in their days.
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Eden
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scythewieldor further wrote quote:
In what way can we be Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise, but be excluded from the land of Abraham?
Part of the mystery of Israel and Judah ends in the return of the children of both houses to the land, according to the promise God made to Abraham that his seed would inherit the land.
We who are in Christ are heirs according to the promise concerning Abraham's seed. The only way to construct the things written by the prophets and the apostles - without making God a liar - is that the Christians be the children of the houses of Israel.
I think there is no question that the house of Israel and the house of Judah-Benjamin will be rejoined in the coming Kingdom of God on earth with Jesus ruling the nations from Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 37
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
But in addition to the house of Israel and the house of Judah being saved, God is also saving Gentiles, good ol' Japhethites and Hamites and Shemites who are NOT descended from Shem-Arphaxad-Peleg-Terah-Abraham-Isaac.
By His Sovereign Wil, God is also show mercy to the Gentiles:
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then has God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Matthew 8
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John 10:16
And I have other sheep which are not of this fold: them also must I bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
dear scythewieldor, who are the "children of the kingdom who will be thrust out" and who are these "other sheep who are not of this fold" whom Jesus must also bring?
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, scythewieldor, you wrote quote:
Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates.
One of the promises to Abraham is that his seed would inherit the land between the river of Egypt and the great river Euphrates.
The coming Israel of God will also inherit the land of Misr Egypt and Lebanon and Syria and Iraq because in the coming Kingdom of God on earth, the land of Israel will "be too small for them by virtue of their number":
Isaiah 19
22And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
23In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land.
Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
To me, one fact concerning the seed of Abraham that is as important as any other is constructed beginning with this:
quote:
Ge 15:1 ¶ After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 ¶ And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
One born out of the bowels of Abraham would be his heir.
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Ge 17:15 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.
God, who had established covenant with Abraham, promised that Sarah would have a son to be named Isaac. He promised to establish covenant with Isaac for an everlasting covenant and with his (Isaac's) seed after him.
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Ge 21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham’s sight because of his son.
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
In Isaac shall Abraham's seed be called.
If we are called Abraham's seed without being a descendant of Isaac, God lied.
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Ge 15:Ge 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
One of the promises to Abraham is that his seed would inherit the land between the river of Egypt and the great river Euphrates.
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Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
In what way can we be Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise, but be excluded from the land of Abraham?
Part of the mystery of Israel and Judah ends in the return of the children of both houses to the land, according to the promise God made to Abraham that his seed would inherit the land.
We who are in Christ are heirs according to the promise concerning Abraham's seed. The only way to construct the things written by the prophets and the apostles- without making God a liar- is that the Christians be the children of the houses of Israel.
It is impossible for my God, the God of my fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to lie.
To me, naturally (it being that I know I am not un-subject to vanity), this line of reasoning is very ipso facto.
It may be that you other believers know how to set this aside with all fairness. As it stands,I suspect that the only way serious students of the Truth could have missed this line of clear reasoning is to have been "bewitched" in seminaries, seminars, and conferences.
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Ga 3:1 ¶ O thoughtless Galatians, who did bewitch you, not to obey the truth—before whose eyes Jesus Christ was described before among you crucified?
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Michael Harrison
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Mere men of earth, hear ye, hear ye!
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In so doing, He is perfectly in control and justified when He shows mercy to the fleshly seed of Abraham by giving them the faith of Abraham, as well.
If faith is the qualifier, then being fleshly of seed, ( ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) is not necessary. It is faith alone which qualifies one as seed of Abraham. And 'faith' is of God, but 'belief' is of the believer. This is God's wisdom:
- 1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world [not the natural seed] by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. [whoever they be (subjunctive)]
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I believe that Abraham was a man of flesh and faith. His son, Isaac, which God named the seed of Abraham, and the son according to promise, manifested that he was of both the flesh and the faith of Abraham.
Of the men of faith listed in Hebrews 11, all after Abraham were the seed of Abraham. One woman listed there was not descended from Abraham. However, she had such faith in the promises God made to Abraham that she offered her own body to bring forth the seed of Abraham.
One must recognize that faith is a gift from God. As the Giver of faith, God, indeed, oversees the process of predestination. In so doing, He is perfectly in control and justified when He shows mercy to the fleshly seed of Abraham by giving them the faith of Abraham, as well.
This knowledge undoes the false doctrine that the Jews are all of Israel.
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Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jesus came to save HIS people from their sins.
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Jo 11:51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Jesus's people were divided into two: the nation of Judah and the children of the house of Israel scattered abroad.
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Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Lu 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Jesus was here to seek out the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
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Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
The lost sheep of the house of Israel were of two different folds.
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Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
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Michael Harrison
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Oops! We are not the children of the loins. We are the children of promise, by faith, through belief. That is what qualifies. That alone is what qualifies. I mean, that is what qualifies, which means that any and all 'can' be saved, if only they would. ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) Would! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) If only they would ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Mere men of earth....
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Now we are as Isaac was. We are the children of promise in the same way. Isaac was the seed from the loins of Abraham as well as the son of promise. Therefore, we are seed from the loins of Abraham as well as the seed of promise.
Why are we? It is because we believe! Blessed are they who believe who have not seen.
ok schythy. Then let us pray for those Buddist, and Muslims, and Israelites and street ho's, cocain deprived, agnostics and rebellious! May the Shepard find them.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Because I love you guys, I can not get tired of explaining these things.
An allegory is a way of speaking which uses a familiar thing to help people understand something more complex or unfamiliar.
The account of Abraham and his two sons reports an historical event.
In the historical account, Abraham had one son by a bondwoman and one son by a freewoman.
One son was born according to the ordinary fleshly process by a woman who had no rights. The son by the freewoman was born because a promise was believed.
This historical event can be used to understand something more complex.
The two women stand for two covenants. Agar/Hagar helps us to understand the bondage that is produced by the covenant which was made at Mount Sinai. That Mount Sinai covenant equals the Agar/Hagar and the Jerusalem which was on earth in the days of Paul. That Jerusalem was in bondage with her children. The children of the Mount Sinai Covenant equals the Jews.
The mother left undefined in this passage is the freewoman. Since both women were, in allegory, covenants, Sarah equals the covenant at Mount Sion. Mount Sion is the place where Jesus mediates the New Covenant. It is the location of the heavenly Jerusalem. The Jerusalem which is above is free- and she is the mother of a people which are neither Jew nor Greek. The context for this assertion is derived from Isaiah 54 where we are introduced to two women. One was rejected (divorced?) by the Husband in her youth. The other woman had the Husband.
The Husband of the rejected woman rejoices because she has more children, and her Maker becomes her Husband.
Now we are as Isaac was. We are the children of promise in the same way. Isaac was the seed from the loins of Abraham as well as the son of promise. Therefore, we are seed from the loins of Abraham as well as the seed of promise.
In the same way that the child of Abraham born in the fleshly manner by the bondwoman persecuted the child of Abraham born after the Spirit by the freewoman according to the historical account, it is still going on.
The seed of Abraham that is in bondage to the Old Covenant headquartered in the earthly Jerusalem- the Jews- are trying to make life hard for the seed of Abraham that is set free by the New Covenant headquartered in the heavenly Jerusalem- the Israel of God.
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Jo 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Now, as for the allegation that God is not fair to leave out billions and billions of people- he can show mercy to whomever He wishes. He made everything.
Besides, most dispensaionalists would have no problem with an assertion that only Israelites have the special place authority with Jesus as long as I, contrary to the prophets and apostles, make the Jews all of Israel.
Nevertheless, that same "unfair" God said that the number of the children of Israel would be as the sand of the seashores. If you gathered all the people on earth right now, would the number of them equal the number of grains of sand on a seashore.
Israelites are everywhere. If you are in Christ, whether you know you were descended from a Jew or not, God is working in you, both, to will and to do of His good pleasure because of promises made to our fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
That is why the Muslems, though they hate everybody, hate both, us and the Jews, most.
Even so, there are children of Israel which have been raised as Muslims and Buddhists and animists and atheists who do not know, yet, that they are Abraham's seed- just as we did not.
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Jer 16:14 ¶ Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Carol…. quote:
What he is saying is that only the descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes can become Christians, and they are ELECTED. That would mean billions and billions of people are without hope.
Thanks Carol. I got that part I was thinking. However the next part I didn’t pick up on. The Jews were never to be rejected. They were to be provoked to “jealous by a nation which they know not.” The Christian nation would be it.
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Scythewieldor quote:
This "under the law" thing extended to, both, the children of Judah and the children of divorced Israel until the One who had been the Husband of them both had died.
Scythewieldor
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
The children of the bondwoman 'work' for their salvation. They are the same as the children of Cain! That is all that Paul means in Galations. "Cast out the bondwoman and her son." Be free in Christ! In other words, walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. Don't complicate it with historical implications applied to historical derivitives.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I believe that God has given apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers. The interpretation of the prophecy of scripture is contained in the things written by the apostles and prophets.
It is, indeed, hard to separate what I written from what you expect that I have written.
Since I have, in so many posts, made it clear that the saved are of all twelves tribes of Israel, it seems there could be intentionality in the false witness against me saying that I believe that descendants of only ten of the tribes of Israel can be saved. I hope that will stop, whether by the speakers own will, or God's providence.
Dear Carol, your explanation of the passage in Galatians excels the explanations of most. That passage is, indeed, hard to interpret.
You are most correct that Paul starts his interpretation in Gal. 4:22.
Please allow me to expand the scope of this discussion beyond the interpretation to that which was being interpreted and the conclusion to be drawn from the interpretation.
I would start the discussion a little before verse 22. This is required by the first word of that verse- for.
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Gal 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Paul was trying to resolve a problem which arose out of the law. This problem was ubiquitous, and it was, quentisentially, Jewish. It met Paul wherever he went.
It may have been, even, the messenger of Satan sent to buffet Paul, for the ones Jesus calls the children of the devil were stirring up trouble for him everywhere.
As Paul refers to the son of the bondwoman in the interpretation, he does so in a context established earlier in this same chapter.
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Gal 4:1 ¶ Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
"To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons" was the purpose for which God sent His Son. Who was under the law?
God had made the law a covenantal condition of relationship with Him for only one people on earth.
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Am 3:1 ¶ Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
This "under the law" thing extended to, both, the children of Judah and the children of divorced Israel until the One who had been the Husband of them both had died.
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Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Ro 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
The Jewish influence was the one which Paul commanded to cast out. That was the influence which was attempting to drag the Galatians from the liberty of sons to the bondage of legal slavery.
Casting out the Jew does not keep that Jew from being saved. In the case of the salvation of a Jew, he stops being a Jew. He becomes a new creature. He joins us in the adoption of sons. He is free from the law of the Husband who died.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Yes, I endeavor to say things without using the cliches and buzz-lines of the denominations. People can, and do, repeat those things without considering their meanings or whether the source for those things is scriptural.
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Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 ¶ (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Here, Paul makes those who resort to the law as well as those who resort to faith the seed of the same father without making a difference between the fleshly seed and the "spiritual" seed.
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Ro 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Here, we see that Paul, addressing every man that is among the church at Rome, makes it clear that each received His measure of faith from God.
How did God decide to give some Romans faith while leaving other Romans out? Well, God had made a promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which were the the fathers of some Romans, but not all.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Jesus does mention the twelve tribes of Israel in Matthew 19:28.
quote:
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Obviously, here, it is not current. Instead, the declaration of the twelve tribe state of Israel is made in the future tense.
When James and Paul make their declarations to or about the twelve tribes, they are making those statements in the present tense.
The change from the twelve tribe state of Israel as a future entity to a contemporary entity was catalyzed when Jesus drank the fruit of the vine while he hung on the cross. At that point, the New Covenant was ratified and the twelve tribe Commonwealth of Israel was regenerated.
Read the sixth (or so) post in this thread.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Whew! I'd have to have read that four times or more to begin to sort it out. I'm glad for you who are informed enough on the relevant details to be able to banter. I did find it interesting, however it is a whole lot more simple than all, of, that. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Isaac is the product of faith. Therefore, we who are 'adopted', are 'seed of Isaac' by faith! No other lineage is necessary.
- Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Michael,
What he is saying is that only the descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes can become Christians, and they are ELECTED. That would mean billions and billions of people are without hope.
scythewieldor also says:
quote:
Paul, in Galatians 4, wrote to us who are in Christ Jesus that we are Abraham's seed declaring that it is us, not the Jews, which are the children of the Desolate Woman of Isaiah 54, and children of promise as Isaac was. For that reason, we are supposed to cast out the bondwoman (earthly Jerusalem) and her son (the Jews) in order to keep our liberty.
This verse does not say to cast out the Jews. The meaning is that we do not live in bondage to the law.
Paul's application of the law to their situation is taken from the story of Abraham's two sons, Isaac and Ishmael. When we read through Paul's use of Scripture in this section, we encounter a strange allegorical interpretation. In all of the New Testament, there is perhaps not a more difficult passage to interpret. This passage has often been used to accuse Paul of twisting and distorting Scripture. Betz says that this passage "has strained the credulity of the readers beyond what many people can bear" (1979:244). Paul explicitly calls attention to his method of interpretation in verse 24: these things may be taken figuratively. A more accurate translation of this phrase than the NIV would be "these things are now being interpreted allegorically." Paul must have inserted this reference to his method of interpretation because he knew that his use of this method of interpreting the biblical text would cause difficulty for his readers. In order to appreciate what Paul is doing here, we need to get an overview of the passage, to look at the whole before looking at the parts. Let's consider Paul's purpose for his allegorical interpretation, the false teachers' interpretation and Paul's method of interpretation.
You can often tell the purpose of a book by simply reading its introduction and conclusion. Paul introduces his interpretation of the Old Testament text by pointing out the difference between the two sons of Abraham: one was born of the slave woman in the ordinary way, while the other was born by the free woman as the result of a promise (vv. 22-23). Paul concludes his interpretation with these words: Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman (v. 31). His introduction and conclusion make it clear that his primary purpose is to identify the Galatian Christians as the true children of Abraham, the children of the free woman, the children of promise. As we have seen already, the primary point of Paul's argument in chapter 3 was also to answer this question of the identity of the Galatian Christians: "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (3:29). So when we examine the details of Paul's allegorical interpretation, we need to keep in mind this central point to understand where Paul is headed.
When we consider the context for the allegory in the broader setting of the entire letter, we can also see that Paul constructed the allegory to call for decisive resistance to the false teachers. Paul began the body of his letter by rebuking the Galatians for giving in to the pressure of troublemakers who were leading them to accept a false gospel (1:6-7). In his autobiography Paul illustrated how he decisively resisted pressures from Jewish Christians at Jerusalem (2:3-5) and at Antioch (2:11-14) similar to those faced by the Galatian churches. The request section of the letter begins with the initial request of the letter in 4:12, "become like me," which calls for the Galatians to resist the false teachers just as Paul had resisted the false brothers. His own stand against those "Ishmaels" is now supported by the command of Scripture (Gen 21:10 in Gal 4:30), and Paul asks his converts to follow this command as well. To those who want to be under the law (v. 21) Paul gives a specific command to follow: Get rid of the slave woman and her son (v. 30). In 5:1 Paul paraphrases the call for decisive resistance expressed by the command of Genesis 21:10 in his own words: "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."
So Paul's purpose for his allegorical interpretation of Genesis 21 is to identify the Galatian Christians as the children of freedom and to instruct them to resist those who would lead them into slavery under the law.
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Dynamic interpretation assumes that the thoughts of men can come close to the thoughts of God
Every time someone says this, what he is really saying is that he wants his commentary to be the only commentary. He wants his interpretation to be the only interpretation.
Ephesians 4:11
Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.
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Michael Harrison
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Whew! I'd have to have read that four times or more to begin to sort it out. I'm glad for you who are informed enough on the relevant details to be able to banter. I did find it interesting, however it is a whole lot more simple than all, of, that. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Isaac is the product of faith. Therefore, we who are 'adopted', are 'seed of Isaac' by faith! No other lineage is necessary.
- Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
You can tell from my posts that I am MOST certain that the Jews will, someday, join us in the New Covenant. I am MOST certain that they are part of the seed of Abraham just as we who are in Christ are a part of the seed of Abraham.
That is how I read this declaration of Paul to the Romans.
quote:
Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
5 ¶ Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We all agree that the things which were written aforetime were written to Israel and Judah, primarily. Most of the scriptures were written to induce patience and consolation for Israel and Judah. The comfort was because of the inheritance of the promise.
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He 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
With the this very thing in mind (i.e., the comfort of the heirs of promise), Paul, in Galatians 4, wrote to us who are in Christ Jesus that we are Abraham's seed declaring that it is us, not the Jews, which are the children of the Desolate Woman of Isaiah 54, and children of promise as Isaac was. For that reason, we are supposed to cast out the bondwoman (earthly Jerusalem) and her son (the Jews) in order to keep our liberty.
quote:
Ga 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Read Isaiah 54 and you find that our mother was the wife of youth which the Lord refused. This agrees with Jeremiah 3 where we learn that Israel and Judah were sisters. Israel was married to the Lord first. Israel got the Bill of divorcement- not Judah. Judah was the woman who had the husband of Isaiah 54:1. Israel is the one to which it is written, "For thy Maker is thy Husband".
quote:
Is 54:1 ¶ Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
Judah was the widow to which Paul wrote in Romans 7:1-4 that she should be married again.
quote:
Ro 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
The Jews WERE invited to take part in the New Covenant. That invitation still stands. However, when they do, they will find us there.
quote:
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
At this point, Judah is without mercy because of unbelief just as Israel went without mercy until the Lamb of God was slain.
Scriptures, not commentary (words of sincere, God-loving men which can not come close to the authority of that inspired word of God), I put before you.
I hope Bible readers understand the difference between literal translation and dynamic interpretation.
Dynamic interpretation assumes that the thoughts of men can come close to the thoughts of God. With that assumption, the ancient texts can be (and have been) contorted under the guise of making God's Word more understandable to the less interested or simple mind. In some cases, it seems, the purpose of those versions is to make certain aspects of the form of religion which lacks power more marketable to those who would justify themselves before men.
The New World Version of the JW's express that sort of contortion in ways that are unacceptable to Evangelicals- and rightfully so. There are other versions with contortions of other sorts that- though they are not equally egregious- keep people from understanding what it means to be an heir of God and a joint-heir with Christ Jesus.
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Carol Swenson
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Acts 26:6-7
“Now I am on trial because I am looking forward to the fulfillment of God’s promise made to our ancestors. In fact, that is why the twelve tribes of Israel worship God night and day, and they share the same hope I have. Yet, O king, they say it is wrong for me to have this hope!” (NLT)
Paul used the rich heritage of God’s promise to his and Agrippa’s common ancestors as a connection to Agrippa and to the Jews (the twelve tribes of Israel). They all shared the same hope, that God would keep the promise he had made to his people, a hope that was inextricably tied up with the resurrection of the dead (see 23:6; 24:15). If any Jew—from Abraham forward—had any hope for the fulfillment of any promise that God had made, it must be tied to a belief that he would be resurrected in some form at some time, or the whole concept of God’s promises would be ludicrous. That was Paul’s point. The absurdity was that Paul was being attacked for holding to this hope that was shared so adamantly by his Jewish brothers.
(Life Application Bible Commentary: Acts)
“ Our twelve tribes, the body of the Jewish church , instantly serving God day and night, hope to come to this promise, that is, to the good promised.”
The people of Israel are called the twelve tribes, because so they were at first; and, though we read not of the return of the ten tribes in a body, yet we have reason to think many particular persons, more or less of every tribe, returned to their own land; perhaps, by degrees, the greater part of those that were carried away. Christ speaks of the twelve tribes, Mt. 19:28. Anna was of the tribe of Asher, Lu. 2:36. James directs his epistle to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, Jam. 1:1.
“ Our twelve tribes, which make up the body of our nation, to which I and others belong . Now all the Israelites profess to believe in this promise, both of Christ and heaven, and hope to come to the benefits of them. They all hope for a Messiah to come, and we that are Christians hope in a Messiah already come; so that we all agree to build upon the same promise. They look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come, and this is what I look for. Why should I be looked upon as advancing something dangerous and heterodox, or as an apostate from the faith and worship of the Jewish church, when I agree with them in this fundamental article? I hope to come to the same heaven at last that they hope to come to; and, if we expect to meet so happily in our end, why should we fall out so unhappily by the way?”
Nay, the Jewish church not only hoped to come to this promise, but, in the hope of it, they instantly served God day and night. The temple-service, which consisted in a continual course of religious duties, morning and evening, day and night, from the beginning of the year to the end of it, and was kept up by the priests and Levites, and the stationary men, as they called them, who continually attended there to lay their hands upon the public sacrifices, as the representatives of all the twelve tribes , this service was kept up in the profession of faith in the promise of eternal life, and, in expectation of it, Paul instantly serves God day and night in the gospel of his Son; the twelve tribes by their representatives do so in the law of Moses, but he and they do it in hope of the same promise:
“Therefore they ought not to look upon me as a deserter from their church, so long as I hold by the same promise that they hold by.”
Much more should Christians, who hope in the same Jesus, for the same heaven, though differing in the modes and ceremonies of worship, hope the best one of another, and live together in holy love. Or it may be meant of particular persons who continued in the communion of the Jewish church, and were very devout in their way, serving God with great intenseness, and a close application of mind, and constant in it, night and day, as Anna, who departed not from the temple, but served God (it is the same word here used) in fastings and prayers night and day, Lu. 2:37.
“In this way they hope to come to the promise, and I hope they will.”
Note, Those only can upon good grounds hope for eternal life that are diligent and constant in the service of God; and the prospect of that eternal life should engage us to diligence and constancy in all religious exercises. We should go on with our work with heaven in our eye. And of those that instantly serve God day and night, though not in our way, we ought to judge charitably.
This was what he was now suffering for—for preaching that doctrine which they themselves, if they did but understand themselves aright, must own: I am judged for the hope of the promise made unto the fathers. He stuck to the promise, against the ceremonial law, while his persecutors stuck to the ceremonial law, against the promise:
“It is for this hope’s sake, king Agrippa, that I am accused of the Jews—because I do that which I think myself obliged to do by the hope of this promise.”
It is common for men to hate and persecute the power of that religion in others which yet they pride themselves in the form of. Paul’s hope was what they themselves also allowed (ch. 24:15), and yet they were thus enraged against him for practising according to that hope. But it was his honour that when he suffered as a Christian he suffered for the hope of Israel, ch. 28:20.
(Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the New Testament)
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Kindgo
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At the Feast of Pentecost Peter cries, "Ye men of Judea" (Acts 2:14), "ye men of Israel..." (Acts 2:22), and "All the house of Israel" (Acts 2:36).
Ezekiel 36 and 37, the Dry Bones Vision, declares that Judah (Jews) and Israel (10 tribes) shall be joined as one in the regathering.
This is true today. (The total physical descendants were not the people to whom the promises were made [Romans 9:4-7].
Accompanying some of the legends of the so-called "Ten Lost Tribes" are aspersions on the present State of Israel and the people being regathered in the Land.
These various theories such as "British Israelism" are by their nature anti-Semitic because they deny the Jewish people their proper place in the plan of God.
Let's remember that Genesis 12:3 has never been repealed!
Israel is being regathered in the land just as God has announced.
There is yet to come an event which will awaken them to realize that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob once again has His hand upon them (Ezekiel 38, 39).
I believe this event could happen at any moment.
The Throne of David was promised to the Son of Mary (Luke 1:32). I believe His taking possession of it is on the near horizon. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
A long time ago, I became familiar with "language drift". Languaue drift, as you know, is the dynamic which makes old English hard to understand for the modern man.
That dynamic works in every language because individual speakers, not committed to preserving the truth in communication, give private interpretation to the words they choose.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Eventually, the words of a language shift so much that a Greek word like politeuma, which was once translated conversation, is now re-translated citizenship.
My faith is that the One who redeems me, one time, gave me His public interpretation of the prophecy of scripture in the Bible so that I may be confident that I "have a more sure word of prohecy" whereunto we do well that we take heed.
From what I see in Scripture, the word, Hebrew, refers to the sons of Heber/Eber distinct among which would be our father Abraham in the land of Canaan, and Abraham's seed, Joseph, in Egypt. If the word, Hebrew, stands for the language they spoke, so far, I have not found scripture to teach that to me.
It could, just as well, have stood for their religious orientation as their language. I have not, yet, found support for that in scripture.
I will be looking for any place in the Book given to us by inspiration of God to see if He ever defines the term "Jew" in a way that includes all twelve tribes.
If I do I will have to change my model.
The reason that all the people that returned to Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity were called Jews is declared by the lists of the returnees in Ezra and Nehemiah. The ones that returned were of the very same tribes that left- Benjamin, Judah, and Levi. Besides the tribesmen of Judah, there were some servants of the King's house that returned, as I recall. (This might give us the pool out of which the one and only tribe besides Judah, Benjamin, and Levi EVER mentioned in the Bible after the exile of Israel as having a current constituent- that constituent being Anna, daughter of Phanuel of the tribe of Asher, by name- came.)
As I KEEP repeating, a century or more after the exile of Israel, Jeremiah is calling Israel the sister of Judah. After the Babylonian captivity, Zechariah is still prophesying the FUTURE return of Joseph/Ephraim to Lebanon and Gilead. That same prophet prophesies the FUTURE breaking of the staff, Bands, to make an end of the brotherhood of Israel and Judah. That same prophet declares that the burden of Israel had to do with Judah in a context within which the tabernacles of Judah get saved. Thus, in Zechariah 12, we learn that they join us, the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem, in the New Covenant on the day Jesus returns to defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, which, at that point, includes the people converted from among the Jews.
The New Testament writer, Paul, makes it his testimony that the constituency of Israel, then current, was twelve tribes serving God day and night. - Since the Jews had been broken off of the Good olive tree and, thus, could not be serving God at all, and,
- since the Jews were persecuting the constituency which was serving God day and night,
then, the Jews still, can not be identified with the twelve tribe nation of the Israel of God. The very day, nay, the very split second that a Jew repents and is converted to the New Covenant in Christ Jesus, he is no longer a Jew. He becomes an Israelite of the Israel of God.
Read this parable, again.
quote:
Mat 13:24 ¶ Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Do not lose the import of this given to us in the public interpretation of scripture.
quote:
Jn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Indeed, Jesus says that the Jews are Abraham's seed using the very same term that the Holy Spirit gives in Galatians for the converted ones. Yet these religious Jews- scribes and Pharisees- were children of the devil who do the will of their father.
Could they be the ones sowing tares into the field of our Lord even at this very time?
Could it be true that they have snuck in privily to spy out our liberty?
Could it be true that they have promoted disunity among the children of the Kingdom in a way which results in denominations which can not accept the truth?
Of course, it can be true.
Is it true that the angels will come in the time of the harvest and gather the sons of the wicked one out of God's Kingdom, and cast them into the furnace of fire? Will that include the ones who take away from certain words of a certain book of prophecy?
Denominations are set up in such a way that one who is motivated by the love of money (filthy lucre), or the desire to gain honour from men (which precludes the effect of faith), can climb the ladder to rule over God's heritage. Young men are inducted into their Bible schools, and trained to become peddlers of the word of God before they have learned to be good husbands, fathers, and neighbors. Thus, the communion of the Holy Spirit is over-shrouded with a mercantile pall.
That pall shall be removed. That pall shall be removed. That pall shall be removed.
Whatsoever we bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatsoever we lose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
May the mercantile pall be rolled up and bound on earth. May the communion of the Holy Spirit be released (not grieved) on earth that we may stand fast in our liberty in Christ Jesus.
Our Father, which art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy name. Thy Kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us, this day, our daily bread. Forgive us our debtx as we forgive our debtors. Lead us not into temptation. Deliver us from the evil. Thine is the Kingdom, and power, and glory, forever.
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Carol Swenson
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Jew
At first one belonging to the kingdom of Judah, as distinguished from northern Israel.
After the captivity, all members of the one new state were "Jews," i.e. in God's outward covenant, as contrasted with "Greeks" or Gentiles.
"Hebrew" on the other hand expressed their language and nationality, in contrast to "Hellenists," i.e. Greek speaking Jews.
The term " Israelites" expresses the high theocratic privileges of descent from the patriarch who "as a prince had power with God".
John uses "Jews" of the faction hostile to the Lord Jesus. By the time that he wrote, the Jews had definitely rejected the gospel offered to them by the apostles at home and abroad so they are no longer regarded as the covenant people, the kingdom of God having passed from them to the Gentiles. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple formally effected the transference forever since the Jew professes a religion enjoining what God's providence makes it impossible for him to fulfill, namely, the observance of the great feasts and the sacrificial system in the temple at Jerusalem.
There are three names used in the New Testament to designate this people:
· Jews, as regards their nationality, to distinguish them from Gentiles.
· Hebrews, with regard to their language and education, to distinguish them from Hellenists, i.e., Jews who spoke the Greek language.
· Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God.
"To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone."
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yahsway
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The Encyclopedia Judaica says the first century historian, Josephus, stated in his "Antiquities": "The ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude not to be estimated in numbers"
Also, the 19th century Jewish Believer and theologian, Alfred Edersheim, wrote in his respected work, "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah": "The great mass of the ten tribes was in the days of Messiah, as in our own, lost to the Hebrew Nation."
Edersheim also calls them: "Those wanderers of the ten tribes whose trackless footsteps seem as mysterious as their after-fate."
Scripture does say that Ephraim would be a "melo ha goyim" a fullness of the Gentiles (Gen 48:19)
Artscroll, Genesis, Vol 6, Mesorah, 1982, says melo means a "fullness" and "Connotes abundance meaning :
"His seed will become the abundance of the nations" (p2121)
Also according to Gesenius (Hendrickson, p163a, word#1471), "goyim" is "specially used of the (other) nations besides Israel."
According to scripture Ephraim would become the fulness of the Gentiles
They would be scattered among and regathered from all nations
They would experience a 2nd birth(Jezreel:born anew) and once more be known as "Israel"
They would be like the sand of the sea in number
One of their names would be "Sons of the Living God"
They would proclaim to their brothers(Judah) the "Good News" of the great mercy of their God.
Can we find a people anywhere on the face of the earth who fits all these criteria?
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Kindgo
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scythewieldor,
You need to realize there are different groups of people who make up whole. There are the Old Testament Saints, the Church (Jew and Gentile) and the Nation of Israel.
We are now in the Church Age which consists of both Jew and Gentile. We will be removed at the Rapture.
The Nation of Israel will come to know Christ as their Savior along with the Tribulation Saints during the 7 year tribulation.
God has a very specific and very unique plan and covenant for the Jews, which has not been replaced with the Church.
People often refer to the Jews as, "God's chosen", which really boils down to the meaning of the phrase. If you mean the people He's chosen in order to fulfill the covenant He originally made with them, and the people He's chosen in order to fulfill the prophecies of old, then YES, they are most assuredly His chosen people.
Hope this helps.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
When we read the word "ethos" in the Greek text, it refers to a customs rather than nations.
Check out Strong's ref. num. 1485. That word was used to describe the manner of Romans as well as Jews.
quote:
Ac 25:16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner <1485> of the Romans to deliver any man to die, before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.
Next point:
I believe that when God divorced Israel, her children became one with the nations to which they were scattered. However, their racial connection to Abraham prevailed over their national connection because of the promises to the fathers.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
The teachings of the British Israelites make me mad, too. It either entraps one into the fleshly pride of racism, or it makes people reactive to any presentation of a scriptural recognition that Judah and Israel were separate nations with separate destinies.
The worst part about that false doctrine is that it takes such a strong hold on the imaginations of people that, for any one who has heard of it, it becomes very difficult to understand what the prophets said about Ephraim/Joseph/Israel without that baloney involving itself in one's inner dialogue (as this thread is proving).
What Eden wrote about reading the things spoken by the prophets over and over before things begin to be sorted out is very true. I am convinced that we mix the Word with faith in our hearts, not book upon book, nor chapter upon chapter, but, rather, line upon line and precept upon precept.
Thus, when the Lord warned me against the bondage of the denominationalism of the sect the Bible school of which I almost entered 33 years ago, He expressed a marvelous mercy to me.
Three or four years of training in the favorite scriptures of a denomination, simply, can not prepare a person with a knowledge of God.
Carol's statement is so true: that our faithfulness in what we do know, regardless of the gaps in our knowledge of the secrets, is the thing for which God is looking.
However, God has promised to give more to the one who is faithful in little. If, when God looks at us, He finds that we are faithful with the Bible secrets we have, He will give us more more Bible secrets.
One of the things that has a strong hold on the inner dialogues of believers is the idea that the 144,000 are all Jews. When you read the passage, you find that only 12,000 were of Judah.
If you take the definition of "Jews" as it was first used in the Bible, you find that the ten tribes of the northern kingdom were not included in the term. The tribe of Benjamin was, probably, included in that term.
quote:
2Ki 16:5 ¶ Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.
6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.
Therefore, it looks like the one who interprets the 144,000 as Jews is giving a private interpretation to the prophecy of scripture taking words away from The Book of the Revelation. If so, that person should fear lest the curse for that action take hold on him.
I look forward to witnessing Psalm 87:5. "This one is born in her."
quote:
Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
According to the words of the New Testament, this passage may be in the process of fulfilment.
As I have pointed out before, Paul, in making his defense to Agrippa, says the twelve tribes (in which he includes himself) were serving God night and day while the Jews were persecuting him.
quote:
Ac 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope’s sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
The Jews against the twelve tribes of Israel was a condition of Israel even then.
Another thing I have pointed out before has to do with James. There are two apostles in Jerusalem with the name of James. The Jews are there with them. It is the homeland of the Jews.
quote:
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The Jews are NOT "scattered abroad". It looks like the Holy Spirit chose to use the same word, here, that He used in John 11:52.
quote:
Joh 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
It is to the twelve tribes, not the Jews, to which James writes in an inclusive way, "we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures".
Since James was writing to the twelve tribes, he must have been writing to Hebrews who, nationally, were not Jews. It is the Jews who were persecuting the people which had been converted and which were no longer either Jew or gentile. And they were driving them out of the earthly Zion. But the writer of Hebrews says that the converts have come to the mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
quote:
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
This is the same city which Paul says is the mother of us all who through, conversion, are neither Jew nor gentile.
quote:
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
I know this is more than you want to read, but giving these things there proper value is imperative and not out of the reach of those who have the Spirit.
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Eden
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Carol Swenson, good quote from the New Testament RE: the Lamb died to redeem people “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Rev. 5:9).
And The great multitudes pictured here came from “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Rev. 7:9). “Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature” was our Lord’s mandate (Mark 16:15).
Very good, Carol Swenson, "all nations and kindred and people". Validates that Hamite, Japhetic, and the non-Arphaxad-Terah-Abraham-Isaac, in combination known as the Gentiles, can also be saved if they are able to believe: "every kindred" may believe unto eternal life.
love, Eden
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Carol Swenson
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I am only a Gentile, but I love and respect God's chosen people. The idea of Anglo-Israelism makes me mad.
In every age, God has had His faithful remnant. Elijah thought he was alone, but God had 7,000 who were yet faithful to Him (1 Kings 19:18). The sealing described in Revelation 7 certainly has its background in Ezekiel 9:1-7, where the faithful were sealed before God’s judgment fell. So, while these 144,000 Jews are an elect people in the last days with a special task from God, they also symbolize God’s faithful elect in every age of history.
The number 144,000 is significant because it signifies perfection and completeness (144=12 x 12). Some see here the completeness of all God’s people: the twelve tribes of Israel (Old Testament saints) and the twelve Apostles (New Testament saints). This may be a good application of this passage, but it is not the basic interpretation; for we are told that these 144,000 are all Jews, and even their tribes are named.
A man once told me he was one of the 144,000; so I asked him, “To which tribe do you belong, and can you prove it?” Of course, he could not prove it, no more than a Jew today can prove the tribe from which he or she descended. The genealogical records have all been destroyed. Even the fact that ten of the tribes were taken by the Assyrians and “lost” is no problem to God. He knows His people and their whereabouts (see Matt. 19:28; Acts 26:7; James 1:1).
We must permit God to know “the secret things,” and not allow our ignorance of them to hinder us from obeying what we do know (Deut. 29:29).
The saved Gentiles
You cannot read the Book of Revelation without developing a global outlook, for the emphasis is on what God does for people in the whole world. The Lamb died to redeem people “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Rev. 5:9). The great multitudes pictured here came from “all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” (Rev. 7:9). “Go ye into all the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature” was our Lord’s mandate (Mark 16:15).
There is no doubt as to who this multitude is, because one of the elders explained it to John (Rev. 7:14): they are Gentiles who have been saved through faith in Christ during the Tribulation.
(Wiersbe)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Eden
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Dear scythewieldor wrote: quote:
Don't be slow to believe all the things written by the prophets.
Before we can be slow or fast to believe what the prophets have said, we must first read what the prophets have said, and we will probably have to reread it more than several times to really get what they have said, eh?
love, Eden ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
"so help me God"
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Eden
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Hi, scythewieldor, you said quote:
Dear friends,
The mystery concerning the very evident Old Testament difference between Israel and Judah is great.
It is probably not a mystery but just something to be discovered from the Bible.
love, Eden
"so help me God" ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif)
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