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Topic: Mystery of Israel and Judah
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Eden
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posted
dear brother scythewieldor, when it comes to the Biblical phrase "all nations", the Bible uses that term loosely, and often in a less than earthwide sense.
Jeremiah 43:5
But Johanan the son of Kareah, and all the captains of the forces, took all the remnant of Judah that were returned from all nations where they had been driven, to dwell in the land of Judah.
Judah was taken captive to Babylon, and is above said to "return from all nations".
Jeremiah 28:11
And Hananiah spake in the presence of all the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Even so will I break the yoke of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon from the neck of all nations within the space of two full years. And the prophet Jeremiah went his way.
Babylon never was on the neck of all nations, only on some nations.
At most, the Bible states that the LORD will gather the house of Israel-Ephraim from all the nations where I have driven you, not from all the nations of the earth, but from all the nations where I have driven you, which is a big difference.
But note again this also, that while Israel-Ephraim is among the nations where the LORD has driven them, they will be a "hissing" and a "reproach":
Jeremiah 29:18
And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations where I have driven them.
If the Gentiles of the nations where the house of Israel-Ephraim has been driven cannot tell anymore "who is who" ("they now all act like Gentiles"), how can the house of Israel be a "hissing" and a "reproach" among the nations where they have been driven?
The ONLY way that could have happened is if the house of Israel-Ephraim REMAINED VERY DISTINCT while among the Gentiles so that the Gentiles clearly knew "who was who" among them, just like the Jews in the ghettos of Europe.
The house of Israel-Ephraim, AND the house of Judah, is still among the Gentiles. Adolf Hitler knew "who was who".
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
Well, now it's just a matter of a history imagined according to the limits of a faith that favors racism versus a history according to the testimony of what God said He would do.
I read the Bible as if the ludicrous-sounding things that God says He will do are just as sure as the ludicrous-sounding things God said He did.
Jonah in the belly of a fish? The Red Sea split into parts and a huge number of people going across on dry ground? The earth opening up and Israelites going into the pit alive? The sun going backwards? And, then, the sun going backwards, again, centuries later? A dead man coming to life because the body of another dead man fell on him? A crucified Man being resurrected from the dead? That Man ascending into heaven?
I believe ALL that.
Now, you want me to believe that that Man is coming back the same way He left, but God can't do the things He said He was going to do with Israel?
quote:
De 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
8 And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.
9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:
Zec 7:8 ¶ And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying,
9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
13 Therefore it is come to pass, that as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.
Am 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
They were scattered with a whirlwind among ALL the nations they knew not- not just the United Kingdom.
They were shaken (not sifted, as AV) among all nations- not just ones where Anglo-Saxons can be found.
Months of dialog with someone whose faith was limited by racism. I sooo misunderstood your resistance. Who could have guessed?
I'm sorry.
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Eden
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Dear scythewieldor, you wrote to Eden quote:
Dear Eden,
The response that I made to your recent inquiry "disappeared" from the thread.
In it I told you that in whatever land people have been told that they are not the children of God, if there are lost children of the house of Israel there who get converted, the Spirit tells them, in that land, that they are children of God.
People of Russia, Britain, Nigeria, Mexico, Uganda, Brazil, and, even, (the audacity) Texas have been told that they are not God's people.
This is a very lame answer, scythewieldor. You may as well list ALL the countries of the world other than SAMARIA as containing people who "are not God's people". It was ONLY to the house of Israel-Ephraim in SAMARIA that the LORD said through Hosea, "You are not My people". It is not Biblical to suggest that the LORD later again told "other people in other countries" that they "are not God's people".
The LORD has only said that once, and that was to the house of Israel-Ephraim IN SAMARIA, as it was that pronouncement that accompanied the bill of divorcement.
You further said quote:
Yet, in those very lands there are people to which the Spirit is saying, "You are a child of God."
That is because God is currently saving Gentiles too:
Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men everywhere to repent.
31 Because He has appointed a day, in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He has ordained; whereof He has given assurance to all men, in that He has raised Him from the dead.
Acts 10:35
But in every nation he who fears Him and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.
It is more likely than not that the majority of the house of Israel-Ephraim departed from Assyria when Assyria was defeated by the Medes and Chaldea-Babylonians.
And that in the subsequent vacuum of power following this defeat, Israel-Ephraim migrated from Assyria and migrated north through the Caucasus Pass and north into central Asia through Iran.
And that later the central Asian hordes pushed Israel-Ephraim westward and they dwelled around the Black Sea and around the Danube river and pushed west into Europe and most likely formed the bulk of the Anglo-Saxons.
The point I'm making is that few, if any at all of the house of Israel-Ephraim went to New Zealand or to Papua New Guinea or to Zimbabwe ir to Kamchatka or to Japan or to Australia, or to ... south Korea.
Yet there are a combined millions of Christians in all those lands other than Europe and central Asia where the majority of Israel-Ephraim fled from Assyria during the power vacuum created by the defeat of Nineveh.
One thing is for sure: Israel-Ephraim DID NOT RETURN TO SAMARIA because in the days of Jesus and until A.D. 70, the Samaritans, whom the Assyrians planted in SAMARIA instead of the house of Israel-Ephraim, these Samaritans were still in SAMARIA right up to A.D. 70.
So the house of Israel-Ephraim did go somewhere, and the bulk of them almost surely became the Saxons, which, being interpreted, is "sons of Isaac", "Isaac-sons", "Saac-sons" and eventually was shortened and anglicized to "Saxons".
But it is far-fetched to believe that all the Christians in Papua New Guinea and in Indonesia and in Tahiti and in Hawaii and in Japan and in Korea and in Guatemala and in Vietnam and in China WERE ALL PART OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL-EPHRAIM and that there is NOT A GENTILE AMONG THEM!!!
I find that ludicrous. It is instead much more likely that the simple text of the Bible is what is happening:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 11:18
And when they heard these things, they held their peace and glorified God, saying, [b]Then has God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
At this point, God is saving WHOSOEVER, that is the plain text of the Bible.
Or perhaps you would like to say that MANY OF the people who THINK they are Christians in all the nations of the world WILL FIND OUT THAT THEY ARE NOT REALLY CHRISTIANS?
love, Eden
"oy, oy, oy"
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
The response that I made to your recent inquiry "disappeared" from the thread.
In it I told you that in whatever land people have been told that they are not the children of God, if there are lost children of the house of Israel there who get converted, the Spirit tells them, in that land, that they are children of God.
People of Russia, Britain, Nigeria, Mexico, Uganda, Brazil, and, even, (the audacity) Texas have been told that they are not God's people. Yet, in those very lands there are people to which the Spirit is saying, "You are a child of God."
quote:
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
I am sorry that the first version of this post did not survive the gremlins in the kitchen, somehow. And I am sorry that you felt I had no answer. I posted it yesterday morning, I think.
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Eden
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Eden had written to scythewieldor quote:
Let's try to take smaller swaths with your scythe.
We both believe that the house of Israel is still among the Gentiles, right?
Okay, then next, do you believe that when Hosea says that "where it was said to you, 'You are not My people', there it shall be said, 'You are the sons of the Living God'," do you believe that is said to the house of Israel while the house of Israel is still among the nations?
And, if so, how do you reconcile the fact that the house of Israel was told "You are not My people" IN SAMARIA, and thus the house of Israel will be told IN SAMARIA that they are "the sons of the Living God", and NOT while they are still among the nations?
Because (as I had tried to do also until now), you assumed that the "sons of the Living God" were "those among the nations (Gentiles) who accepted Jesus and became Christians" from among the Gentiles, right?
And so you are making the house of Israel to be the CHURCH that is currently being called out and assume that "the sons of the Living God" equates to "people who currently are becoming Christians" from among the nations.
But Hosea said that "IN THE PLACE WHERE...THERE," and that was NOT among the Gentiles but IN SAMARIA.
So how you reconcile this seeming inconsistency?
scythewieldor, your silence speaks volumes.
love, Eden
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Eden
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bluefrog wrote quote:
EDEN...Did you ever read Mark 13?
No. I always skip from Mark 12 to Mark 14.
love, Eden
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bluefrog
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MICHAEL...I think some on here are lawyers, what do you think? lol
EDEN...Did you ever read Mark 13 ?
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Eden
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okay, scythewieldor, let's try to take smaller swaths with your scythe.
We both believe that the house of Israel is still among the Gentiles, right?
Okay, then next, do you believe that when Hosea says that "where it was said to you, 'You are not My people', there it shall be said, 'You are the sons of the Living God'," do you believe that is said to the house of Israel while the house of Israel is still among the nations?
And, if so, how do you reconcile the fact that the house of Israel was told "You are not My people" IN SAMARIA, and thus the house of Israel will be told IN SAMARIA that they are "the sons of the Living God", and NOT while they are still among the nations?
Because (as I had tried to do also until now), you assumed that the "sons of the Living God" were "those among the nations (Gentiles) who accepted Jesus and became Christians" from among the Gentiles, right?
And so you are making the house of Israel to be the CHURCH that is currently being called out and assume that "the sons of the Living God" equates to "people who currently are becoming Christians" from among the nations.
But Hosea said that "IN THE PLACE WHERE...THERE," and that was NOT among the Gentiles but IN SAMARIA.
So how you reconcile this seeming inconsistency?
thank you, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
quote:
Ro 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 ¶ As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Ho 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
The only way to read the passage in Romans 9 is to allow Paul to tell us that there are two pre-destined vessels of mercy- Judah, whose people source is known, and Israel, whose people source has become unknown.
He affirms this by citing three prophecies.
Two of these prophecies are to none but the northern kingdom of Israel. The third is to none but the southern kingdom of Judah.
Since Paul can only be saying that the two to Israel are being fulfilled as the calling of the children of the house of Israel results in converts from among the gentiles, then to assume anything else ignores the purpose of the passage.
The lost children of Israel, being descendants of a source unknown to all but God, Himself, they were, and are, responding to the calling of Israel in a land where it is said of them, "Ye are not God's people. Only Jews are God's people".
At this time, the gospel of the Kingdom is still shaking the nations where the children of Israel have been scattered. The response of those people to the Gospel is separating them from the nations.
Peter and James recognized this.
When the sifting process is complete, all of the members necessary for the reconstruction of the Tabernacle of David will be brought back home- even the buried ones.
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Eden
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Dear scythewieldor, you seem to avoid the important questions. Let me ask if you assumed the following, or not. I wrote:
"I had always assumed, as you probably had also assumed, that THERE IT SHALL BE SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD“ was WHILE Israel-Ephraim was STILL MIXED among the nations."
Did you also assume that Israel-Ephraim would be called "the sons of the Living God" while Israel-Ephraim was (is) mixed among the Gentiles, or not?
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
God promised to sift Israelites from the nations.
quote:
Am 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
10 All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.
11 ¶ In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.
James said that Peter agreed with Amos.
quote:
Ac 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
I remind you all that the "gentiles" in Acts is the same as the "nations" in Amos.
I don't have any thing invested in the denominations. They can't take my job away. They can't shame me. They can't "unsave" me. They can't reduce the offerings I receive. (I don't get any.)
quote:
Ga 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man’s person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
I thank God for the work of the Father which His Son finished on the cross.
I am fighting according to the victory that overcomes the world, even the faith authored and finished by our Lord Jesus Christ.
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yahsway
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posted
Eden, its not about "Looking" like gentiles.
Its about "being" like gentiles.
Like it says in Hosea, the Torah was a "strange" thing to Ephraim. Their Feast days ceased. They no longer practiced the Feasts of the Lord ect..
Do you think all of Judah/Jews "Look" alike?
You must know they do not. Its not about their outward appearances.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Eden
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And why will it not be until Israel-Ephraim is BACK IN SAMARIA before they will hear, "You are the Sons of the Living God"?
Because God will cause the house of Israel and the house of Judah to come up out of their graves while they are mixed in among the nations.
And then God will lead them to the land of Israel, including to Samaria, and once the house of Israel and the house of Judah are back in the land of Israel, "ONLY THEN shall they be called the sons of the Living God".
Here are the verses for it:
Ezekiel 37
11 Then he said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, and I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And I shall put My spirit in you and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall you know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, says the LORD.
Hosea 1:10
For yt the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God.
For some years I have believed the teaching that Israel-Ephraim was LOST among the Gentiles and that Israel-Ephraim now LOOKED and TALKED so much like the Gentiles that neither the Gentiles nor the Israel-Ephraim can tell the difference anymore and "now they all look like Gentiles".
If Israel-Ephraim looked and acted just like the Gentiles, how could they still "profane the name of the LORD while Israel-Ephraim was among the Gentiles"?
The answer is that Israel-Ephraim had to be DIFFERENT than the Gentiles in order for Israel-Ephraim to be able to "profane the name of the LORD WHILE among the Gentiles". If they all looked and acted THE SAME, who would know who was profaning what?
So I'm more and more convinced that Israel-Ephraim was NEVER LOST while mixed among the Gentiles.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Good day, scythewieldor Skywaker, let’s for now just consider these verses from Hosea 1:8-10:
Hosea 1
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived again, and she bore a son.
9 Then God said. Call his name Loammi: for you are not My people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE, THERE IT SHALL BE SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.
When I read this today, IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE, THERE IT SHALL BE SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD, I realized that Israel-Ephraim will be told YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD, NOT while Israel-Ephraim is AMONG THE NATIONS, but AFTER Israel-Ephraim was among the nations.
I had always assumed, as you probably had also assumed, that THERE IT SHALL BE SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD“ was WHILE Israel-Ephraim was STILL MIXED among the nations.
When I read v.10 today, I suddenly realized that God had said trough Hosea, IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE ...
Okay, Israel-Ephraim was told "you are not My people IN SAMARIA.
And then God continues, IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE, THERE IT SHALL BE SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.
So since Israel-Ephraim was in SAMARIA when they were told, "you are not My people", therefore Israel-Ephraim will be told IN SAMARIA "you are the sons of the Living God".
And therefore WHILE ISRAEL-EPHRAIM IS STILL AMONG THE GENTILES, ISRAEL-EPHRAIM CANNOT BE TOLD THAT ""you are the sons of the Living God" because that will happen IN SAMARIA, as in, "Where ..., there".
scythewieldor and yahsway or anyone, what do you have to say about this?
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
I believe that Paul calls that passage fulfilled in by the Jews in Romans 2:
quote:
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
However, when the Israelites left the Lord's land, they spoke Hebrew. They had customs which were Israelite such as has been witnessed, recently, with the return of, what appears to be, a remnant of a half-tribe of Manasseh.
Apparently, one half-tribe remembered something.
I just wonder which half this is. I suspect it is the first half that was removed from the east side f Jordan.
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Eden
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The following verses are used to teach that Israel-Ephraim will be LOST while among the Gentiles to the extent that Israel-Ephraim NO LONGER KNOWS that IT IS ISRAEL-EPHRAIM, and instead Israel-Ephraim now THINKS that Israel-Ephraim ARE GENTILES, they have lost their PATHS that much, the teaching goes.
(Hosea 8:8, 9; 2:5, 6).
"For she said: I will go after my lovers (Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure, for they are gone up to Assyria, a wild *** alone by himself: Ephraim has hired lovers) that give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink. Therefore, behold, I will hedge up your way with thorns, and I will make a wall, that SHE SHALL NOT FIND HER PATHS.”
The above verses are used to teach that Israel-Ephraim will be LOST while among the Gentiles to the extent that Israel-Ephraim NO LONGER KNOWS that IT IS ISRAEL-EPHRAIM, and instead Israel-Ephraim now THINKS that Israel-Ephraim ARE GENTILES, they have lost their PATHS that much, the teaching goes.
But look at this:
Ezekiel 36
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries, according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered to the heathen, wherever they went they profaned My holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whever they went.
22 Therefore say to the house of Israel, thus says the Lord GOD; I do not do this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for My holy name's sake, which you have profaned among the heathen, wherever you went.
23 And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which you have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, says the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Okay, scythewieldor, notice Ez.36
20 And when they entered to the heathen, wherever they went they profaned My holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD and are gone forth out of His land.
That is, Israel-Ephraim remained SO RECOGNIZABLE while among the Gentiles that the Gentiles were saying, “These are the people of the LORD who are gone forth out of His land.”
And secondly, while the house of Israel-Ephraim was among the heathen, Israel-Ephraim PROFANED the name of the LORD IN THE MIDST OF THEM:
Ezekiel 36
23 And I will sanctify My great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which YOU have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, says the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
So let me ask you, scythewieldor and yahsway, how could Israel-Ephraim PROFANE the name of the LORD IN THE MIDST OF THEM ... IF Israel-Ephraim LOOKED EXACTLY LIKE A GENTILE by then? The truth is that Israel-Ephraim can ONLY have PROFANED the name of the LORD if Israel-Ephraim still looked like ... well, like Israel-Ephraim while among the heathen.
Love, Eden
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Eden
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Good day, scythewieldor Skywaker, I’m ready to further discuss the idea that Israel-Ephraim was LOST among the Gentiles to the extent that Israel-Ephraim NO LONGER REMEMBERED that it was Israel-Ephraim.
Let’s consider these verses from Hosea 1:8-10:
Hosea 1
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived again, and she bore a son.
9 Then God said. Call his name Loammi: for you are not My people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE, THERE IT SHALL BE SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.
Dear scythewieldor, when I read this today, I saw something that I had not seen before in verse 10. Notice that v.10 says, in part, IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE…”
I had always assumed, as you also seem to assume, that “in the place where it was said to them, you are not My people”, referred to the time when Israel-Ephraim was MIXED among the nations.
But when I read v.10 today, I realized that “you are not My people was said to Israel-Ephraim, NOT AMONG THE GENTILES but WHILE Israel-Ephraim was STILL IN SAMARIA.
In Hosea 1:9, the LORD said to Israel-Ephraim thru Hosea, “You are not My people”:
Hosea 1
9 Then God said, “Call his name Loammi: for you are not My people, and I will not be your God.
This was said to Israel-Ephraim while Israel-Ephraim WAS STILL IN SAMARIA.
So scythewieldor, let’s consider Hosea 1:10 next:
Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE, THERE IT SHALL BE SAID TO THEM, YOU ARE THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.
That is to say, Israel-Ephraim will NOT BE TOLD that they are the SONS OF THE LIVING GOD while Israel-Ephraim is AMONG the Gentiles, but Israel-Ephraim will be told that they are the SONS OF THE LIVING GOD ONCE THEY ARE BACK IN SAMARIA, because THAT was the place where Israel-Ephraim was told, “YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE”:
Hosea 1
9 Then God said, “Call his name Loammi: for you are not My people, and I will not be your God.
This was said to Israel-Ephraim while Israel-Ephraim WAS STILL IN SAMARIA. So while Israel-Ephraim is YET among the Gentiles, it will NOT be said to Israel-Ephraim, “You are the sons of the Living God”. That will be told them in Samaria.
Love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
You know the answer to this. However, you are looking, so hard, for a way around Romans 9 that you miss the obvious in Romans 2 in order to stretch "something" in Romans 3.
Circumcision was nothing but a symbol of keeping covenant with the Almighty. Circumcision was not a racial trait.
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Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
Jer 11:10 They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers.
Jer 9:25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.
Thus, when the covenant is broken, circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
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Ro 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
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Eden
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scythewieldor and yahsway, et al., Romans 3:29-30 says this:
Romans 3
29 Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.
30 Seeing it is one God who shall justify the circumcision by faith and one God who shall justify the uncircumcision through faith.
Now, I know that the southern kingdom of Israel-Judah were part of the circumcision, but surely also the northern kingdom of Israel-Ephraim were part of the circumcision.
I don't know any place in the Bible which contemplates making the Israelites of Israel-Ephraim EVER part of the UNcircumcision, EVEN if mixed among the Gentiles.
As far as I know, in the Bible, the ONLY people who were EVER called UNcircumcision were the people who were NOT part of the Abraham-Sarah-Isaac-Jacob line.
But ALL parts of the Abraham-Sarah-Isaac-Jacob line WERE called the CIRcumcision in the Bible.
So let me repeat Romans 3:29-30:
Romans 3
29 Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also.
30 Seeing it is one God who shall justify the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through faith.
I think it would be a major stretch to suggest that the Bible contemplates that anyone of the CIRcumcision ever became part of the UNcircumcision (of the Gentiles) in the Bible.
Even among the nations, Israel-Ephraim would have continued to be Biblically known as the CIRcumcision, would it not?
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
I believe the people currently using the title of Israel is Judah.
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Isa 48:1 ¶ Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.
3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.
4 Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass;
5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
6 Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it? I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them.
7 They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.
8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
9 ¶ For my name’s sake will I defer mine anger, and for my praise will I refrain for thee, that I cut thee not off.
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
I have pointed attention to Zechariah before. Look at this:
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Zc 10:1 ¶ Ask ye of the LORD rain in the time of the latter rain; so the LORD shall make bright clouds, and give them showers of rain, to every one grass in the field.
2 For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.
3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.
4 Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle bow, out of him every oppressor together.
5 ¶ And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the mire of the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the LORD is with them, and the riders on horses shall be confounded.
6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.
That last verse tells how God strengthens the house of Judah while saving the house of Joseph. It also says that God will bring them again to place them. Both shall be as though He had not cast them off.
Judah, as a house, gets strengthened before it gets saved. (Their salvation happens in Chapter 12 of Zechariah.) Being strengthened before the house of Joseph, they return home first.
The scattered members of the house of Joseph, being saved first, come to their identity as the people of God by revelation of The Word of God. They understand that they are chosen for salvation, and that they receive it by grace through faith that is the gift of God.
The house of Joseph being overseen by Ephraim, that people come back, not to the land that bears the name "Israel", today, but to Lebanon and Gilead.
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Zc 10:7 And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD.
8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased.
9 And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again.
10 I will bring them again also out of the land of Egypt, and gather them out of Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon; and place shall not be found for them.
11 And he shall pass through the sea with affliction, and shall smite the waves in the sea, and all the deeps of the river shall dry up: and the pride of Assyria shall be brought down, and the sceptre of Egypt shall depart away.
12 And I will strengthen them in the LORD; and they shall walk up and down in his name, saith the LORD.
Notice that the last verse in this passage tells of the strengthening of Ephraim after his people return from the nations to Lebanon and Gilead.
The miracle that accompanies this return, I believe, is possible, only, when the people of God have the most remarkable unity- the kind that they had when Moses led them out of Egypt.
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Is 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
It is up to us to whom the measure of faith has been given, to become a people of great faith.
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Ga 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Ep 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 ¶ With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
When we have that faith which is described, above, we will be able to speak to mountains and cast them into the sea. We will be able to go over dry-shod.
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Mt 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
Mr 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
If a certain passage in Revelation should be taken literally, one great mountain that gets cast into the sea is burning. That would help dry up the depths and neutralize navies. When it turns the seas to blood, the ships that aren't destroyed will be made very slow.
(Of course, God could just pick us up and carry us there.)
When we get there, however we get there (on wings as eagles?), we will be recognized as strength for Judah through the Lord of hosts our God. That is the day their house gets saved. That is the day they become "inhabitants of Jerusalem" with us.
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Eden
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So scythewieldor (or anyone), in this "mystery of Israel and Judah", who in your opinion are the people who currently inhabit the land of Israel?
For simplification, I exclude the Arabs for this question. Who are the current Israelis, in your opinion. scythewieldor?
Thanks, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Point Three
The land promised to Abraham belongs to the Christians more than to the Jews.
If there ever was a Seed of Abraham to whom the inheritance of the land given to Abraham belongs, that Seed is Jesus of Nazareth.
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Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
He 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The inheritance that Jesus received is shared with us who believe on Him.
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Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Mt 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mr 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Now, who are those who do the will of the Father?
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Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
God is the One who works in us to believe on Jesus. That faith is the gift of God. So, God chooses those who will be the joint-heirs with Jesus.
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Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Ga 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
To get any other interpretation, one must redefine the words chosen for the text by the Holy Spirit. That action might result in serious condemnation. If the testimony of the Lord can make the simple wise, to change the definitions of the words of that testimony is to rob the simple of wisdom. The result is stumbling for the little ones.
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Mt 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 ¶ Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Lu 17:1 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Michael Harrison,
To me it seems that Orthodox Christianity trusts that the Holy Spirit gave us the words of our Book.
In the passage to which I referred, the Holy Spirit, specifically, says that the bondwoman stands for the covenant received at mount Sinai and those of Jerusalem that are under it.
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Ga 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
There is a covenant from mount Sinai that gendereth (gives birth to) bondage which Hagar represents. Hagar answereth to (lines up in a row with) the earthly Jerusalem.
Where does the Holy Spirit give us the room to bring into the allegory anyone but the Jews? It was no one but the Jews who were making the problem in Galatia with which the Holy Spirit was dealing, for this whole exercise is for the benefit of those who desire to be under the law.
Michael, I hope you understand that I have had to deal with this "ju-dolatry", myself. However, we will never see them obtain mercy as long as we pretend that they can come into it peddling that old, worn out law.
Many would call your argument, above, "spiritualizing" the passage. I can not put there more than that which is written.
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Michael Harrison
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scythe, you said that we are on the same page, and maybe we are. But let's look at this:
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The children of the covenant from mount Sinai in Arabia are those who tried to maintain the Old Covenant the administration of which was centered in the earthly Jerusalem. That is the Jews.
Who else could he be talking about?
I agree through where you are speaking of those who are trying to maintain the Old Covenant. However, this is not referring to the Jews, singularly. Paul is referring to 'any' who have not discovered their freedom in Christ. It is a spiritual thing. He is referring to one's personal discovery of the promised land, which means the spiritual provision of Christ, in its fullness. It applies to Jew or Gentile. He is referring to a place of rest. He is referring to being under the Cross. He is referring to, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ."
You see, we find Christ (or He finds us). Then we begin a journey. We, like Israel, wander in the wilderness. Israel had a relationship though they wandered in the wilderness. But it was not a close one. They were on the road to discovery. They were not yet 'familiar' with their God.
To become familiar would mean that they were in the promised land. They were 'seeking' the promised land. The notion of a 'promised land' implies one of closeness in relationship where there is mutual benefit. Did I say mutual? Yes! He gets us, in an intimate way, and we benefit the benefit. We bear fruit.
So this has nothing to do with the Jews as a people. It has nothing to do with geneology. It speaks of one's discovery of their 'relationship' spiritually. It is a carnal, vs. spiritual memorandum which Paul sought to bring to light.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Point Two
We Christians are supposed to cast out the bondwoman and her son.
Since it is too hard for some of you to hear the result of correctly interpreted scripture, directly, I'll start with the figures.
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Ga 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
The bondwoman represents, by allegory, the Old Covenant and Jerusalem which was the center of Old Covenant administration.
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Ga 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
The children of the covenant from mount Sinai in Arabia are those who tried to maintain the Old Covenant the administration of which was centered in the earthly Jerusalem. That is the Jews.
Who else could he be talking about?
When we rid ourselves of the notion that God has any respect for the Old Covenant and those who adhere to it, we will be able to accept that God does not want anyone identifying as Jews to share in that which we have as joint heirs with Christ.
They have rejected the Son of David from being their King. When their governors (popular headship) repent of that choice and are converted, they will lose their identity as Jews. They will be Israelites, indeed, of the Israel of God.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Mizpa,
When the Jews recognize in their hearts that the Lord of hosts is our God, that will be the point of their conversion from an ineffective corruption of a dead covenant to the New Covenant arrangement between God and Israel.
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Zec 12:1 ¶ The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
You can see that this prophecy is written to Israel. Remember that the prophecy in Zechariah 11 declared the end of brotherhood between Israel and Judah. Yet in this prophecy, Judah is presented as a people that is recognizing that the Lord of hosts is not their God. In fact, they recognize themselves as separate from and helped by the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
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Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
How can this be?
Well, in the inaugaration of the New Covenant, the nation formed thereby became children of the heavenly Jerusalem, the capitol city of the Israel of God.
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Ga 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
He 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
It is our care for the governors of Judah that helps them access the mercy that we have received.
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Ro 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
The very day that they repent and are converted, they become inhabitants of Jerusalem with us. And, Jesus comes back. And, Jerusalem comes back to her place.
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Ac 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
These concepts are hard to grasp until you understand and believe all that the prophets have written. The things that the prophets and the apostles have written do supersede the things written by any man since 70 AD.
I am thankful that other men wrote. I am not thankful that other men were turned into something besides what they were- explorers of the mystery of the only wise God, our Saviour. The things they have written should never be used as an overlay when reading the Bible. That is the same as adding to and taking away from the word of God.
It skews the field. Don't be a skewfielder.
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scythewieldor
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Dear WildB,
I am in continuous prayer. I, also, am in continuous study of the only Book given to us whereby we may receive instruction. And I am believing that Book.
The separation that occurred in the days of Rehoboam did not end the obligation of Ephraim-led Israel under the Old Covenant.
When Zechariah wrote, however, the Judah-led portion of Israel had already come back from Babylonian captivity. In other words, centuries had passed since the separation of the people into two nations. In fact, about two centuries had passed since the Ephraim-led portion of Israel had even been a people.
In Zechariah, that prophet is still looking forward to the return of Ephraim to Zion, making it clear that those people were still among the gentiles. So, when Zechariah talks about the brotherhood being broken between Judah and Israel in the future tense, about the time that the thirty pieces of silver are thrown into the the Temple, he can not be talking about something that happened centuries before.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
Dear WildB,
Thank you for bumping this thread back up.
There are many scriptures the values for which have gone largely unexplored because they require more faith than many have developed.
[
Judah and Israel are separate peoples.
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Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Well if I didn't you would keep spamming the board.
And as for your statement , " Judah and Israel are separate peoples" you are wrong.
Same people but one's sins were greater than the other. Remember what Salomon's son judged when he took charge?
1Kings 12
[11] And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
[14] And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.
Please prayerfully study the Bible a little more before posting again.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
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Dear WildB,
Thank you for bumping this thread back up.
There are many scriptures the values for which have gone largely unexplored because they require more faith than many have developed.
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Lu 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
The easy way to learn a doctrine (the way most people learn doctrines) is to let someone else study and feed back to them stuff digestion of which has already been begun.
Those kinds of students memorize the stuff of others, but they never come to the point of learning the Truth for themselves.
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2Ti 2:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
I like my food fresh. I love the thrill of the hunt, tracking the prey, discovering new vistas, and having plenty to share with others freely.
The other guys compare their knowledge among themselves, as if they were present with the apostles after the resurrection when Jesus, in the flesh, taught until the day when He was taken up.
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2Co 10:12 ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
And, they celebrate the flesh of men.
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1Co 1:10 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
I see that someone presented one of my posts, desiring to explore it as false doctrine. Since, therefore, there is a contention, I will present the points of that post one at a time, and let you apply your application to the scriptures by which I support my points.
Fair enough? Of course not.
Point One
Judah and Israel are separate peoples.
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Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Mt 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Je 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
The point here is clear. When Jesus died, He died as the legal King of the Jews rejected by His own. His own Jews refused the Son of David, and merged their nation into Caesar's kingdom. When the prophecy of the thirty pieces of silver was fulfilled, the Old Covenant, under which the children of, both, Judah and Israel, had been nations before the Lord, ended.
However, according to the promise, Israel could not cease to be a nation. So, in the self same day that the Old Covenant ended, the New Covenant was begun, regenerating the twelve tribe nation of Israel, and the hunt began for the people who would populate her.
The hunt began in Jerusalem and Judea. It was extended to Samaria and the uttermost ends of the earth. The people who repented and were converted were no longer Jew nor Greek. They became a part of the holy nation to which Peter refers.
They were coming into the Israel of God.
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Is 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Jn 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
We know that this has been fulfilled.
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Ga 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
The Jews who maintain their very corrupt and ineffective version of the Old Covenant are very separate from us which have been brought near to the commonwealth of Israel by the blood of Jesus.
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Ep 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
I am so glad you wanted to return attention to this subject for it is vital to a proper understanding of the end times.
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Mizpa
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quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
Dear Believers,
You can tell from my posts that I am MOST certain that the Jews will, someday, join us in the New Covenant. \
What is this. Have you not read what the Bible has to say about this?
Gal.3
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Posts: 16 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2008
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WildB
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Post from another board where this sillyness was being spammed.
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Sammy
Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 4385
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Reply with quote
We do not and will not agree on your interpretation of scripture; I believe when we look at the whole counsel of God's word, not to mention His unconditional promise to Abraham, I cannot agree with what you are posting.
Do I believe what you're posting is false teaching? Yes. No amount of your posting is going to change my mind on this one. I encourage anyone who is interested to look up both sides of the issue and decide for themselves what they believe. Right now I don't have the time or the energy.
peace
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In Him,
sammy
http://www.beeyeglad.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=229815&highlight=&sid=c25db37add5da90f916b902a3da9c009#229815
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Check out how all of Israel is reduced to one Person- the Hope of Israel.
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Is 49:1 ¶ Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
The Son of God, the polished shaft in God's quiver, heard His Father tell Him, "Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified".
Notice the "then" and "now".
Then, when Jesus Christ -the One whose mouth is like a sharp sword- was crucified, He had not seen Israel gathered. It looked like He had labored in vain. Yet, He trusted that His judgement was with the Lord, and that His work was with His God.
Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, knew that He had been working the will of God the plan of whom included more sons- adopted sons.
Israelites.
Now, in the resurrection of Jesus Christ, He is glorified in the eyes of His Father and God sustains Him.
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Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
The glory that the Father desires to give His Son is too great to be contained in the raising of the tribes of Jacob and the restoration of the preserved of Israel. Therefore, the Father gave His Son for a Light to the nations. ("Light' and 'glory' are closely associated words through the idea of brilliance.)
Jesus became the salvation of God unto the end of the earth. Thus, when Jesus ratified the New Covenant with the Twelve Apostles, He set them up as judges over the holy, twelve tribe nation of the Israel of God (a commonwealth) whose objective was to work the Ministry of Reconciliation as Ambassadors of Christ.
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2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
This is the mission of the Church: - to go to the nations declaring that God has given Jesus all authority in heaven and in earth, and,
- to baptize converts in all those nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and,
- to teach the nations (through the converts in those nations) to observe the things whatsoever Jesus commanded His Apostles.
Jesus said all men would hate us for that. He told us that that hatred would get us put in fromt of people who represented their nations in courts, and that we would bear witness of Him with words that the Spirit would give us.
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Mat 10:16 ¶ Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mk 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Thus, the government of the holy nation of The Israel of God was extended to gentile cities where they set up overseers and deacons according to the pattern for occupation established in the Old Covenant.
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De 16:18 Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.
As we take heed that no man (including politicians) deceive us, our nation will emerge.
Naturally, we encounter those who will not enter the kingdom of God: neither, will they allow others to enter.
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Mt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
So, as our nation rises, nations come against it. As our kingdom rises kingdoms come against it. As those nations resist the Kingdom of Christ, they experience many catastrophes and woes.
(Don't be fooled by the false prophets who would make you think hurricanes hit us because of what the US commits against the Judeos. They are not heirs of the promises with us. The US gets judged because of their resistance to the children of Light and the children of the Day.)
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Mat 24:4 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
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2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
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scythewieldor
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quote:
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 ¶ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
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Eden
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WildB wrote quote:
What other stuff are you involved with?
I used to eat Twinkies?
That was a great evil, that white evil sugar. What other stuff were you involved with? I used to eat Twinkies. Very ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif) hyper. But not anymore. Now I eat God's Word. Much calmer now.
love, Eden
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WildB
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What other stuff are you involved with?
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
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Dear WildB,
quote:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
When Paul says that we are translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son, it must be that we are a nation which has king.
When Paul writes, "ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh", he must be referencing something from which we were once far. Actually, he tells us that from which we were once far in the verse just before that phrase, saying, "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise."
A peddler is someone whose intent is to buy low and sell high. I do not peddle anything. I have no PayPal link on any of my stuff. When I preach, I give freely what I have received freely. I support my self as Paul supported him self.
I do not call myself a prophet. I read the prophets and the apostles, and believe that God, who cannot lie, put those words in their mouths.
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1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 ¶ Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 ¶ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
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WildB
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"If I want to be separate from abominable works, and do good, I can't afford to allow mental challengers to the word of God to fly in and eat the seed."
Your not a prophet.
Your a weed seed peddler.
The birds as well as the fields excepts both.
But only the Lords follow him.
John.10
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
[28] And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
[29] My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
[30] I and my Father are one.
[31] Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
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Dear Eden,
As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he.
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Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Mt 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mr 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Mt 9:27 ¶ And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.
28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.
If I lean to my own understanding, the word that I have heard is not likely to be mixed with faith in my heart.
It will not bring forth that for which God has sown it.
That condition is known as being a fool.
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Ps 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
This is exactly why Jesus said the following on the road to Emmaus:
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Lu 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
If I want to be separate from abominable works, and do good, I can't afford to allow mental challengers to the word of God to fly in and eat the seed.
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WildB
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"Thus, we have been brought near to the commonwealth of Israel, and we are a holy nation."
Not Biblical.
"WE" are called the Body of Christ. Which is made up of manny nations.
Stop your sillyness.
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
When no interpretation of the scripture is presented, no isogesis is possible. There is only the hope that what is implied will be discerned by the reader.
When two scriptures are taken out of eleven sequential scriptures, all of which are clearly related, misinterpretation is very possible.
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Ro 2:17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
The first line of this piece I've presented is, "Behold, thou art called a Jew..." Obviously, Paul is talking to the Jews with ALL that went along with the title. The Jew was Abraham's seed, a portion of Israel, and obligated to keep the whole law- not just show off his "token".
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Ge 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
Anyone who calls himself a Jew but fails to keep the whole law, especially one which does not correct himself according to the instruction he gives others, who steals, who commits adultery, and who commits sacrilege, is not an inward Jew for he dishonors God by breaking the law concerning which he boasts so much.
Jesus would be the ONLY one who could be considered a Jew who is a Jew inwardly. He, indeed, got His praise from God.
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Co 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Now, no Jew who is converted to Christianity remains a Jew either inwardly or outwardly (except that he can't uncircumsize himself). Instead, he makes his boast in the Lord that was sacrificed as a lamb to take away the guilt of his law-breaking- and begins to enjoy the reality of the circumcision not made with hands.
Everything becomes new to him.
Since 70AD, there has been no way for a Jew to be a Jew except in appearances because they have had no temple for sacrifices.
God got rid of it- like Sodom and Gomorrah.
However, God made provision for the immediate continuation of Israel as a nation in the New Covenant which regenerated the twelve tribes of Israel under the rule of the twelve apostles.
Otherwise, God would have lied.
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Jer 31:35 ¶ Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 33:24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which the LORD hath chosen, he hath even cast them off? thus they have despised my people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.
Thus, we have been brought near to the commonwealth of Israel, and we are a holy nation. But, we are NOT Jews in any way. (Neither, are we Greek.)
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Michael Harrison
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posted
quote:
The converts on the day of Pentecost received the Holy Ghost as the fulfillment of a promise to Israel. The gentiles received it the same way.
The manifestation of the Spirit through speaking in tounges (which Peter recognized as prophesying in other languages) was not a promise to non-Israelites.
Isogesis is a thing of which many are ready to accuse others. An example of isogesis is reading a prophecy to one person and applying that prophecy to someone else.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Where then is the isogesis?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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posted
scythewieldor wrote quote:
Dear Believers, it does not matter what I think- it matters what I believe.
That's mere semantics, my friend. It sounds good, but it means nothing. As the Bible says, "As we think in our heart, so are we".
I have noticed that you do not answer anyone's rebuttals directly but that you just respond with more "Dear Believers" statements. How does that help anyone?
love, Eden
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
It seems to me that verbal language combines with body language (behaviour) to convey the thoughts of the mind and the meditations of the heart. On eo fht eapplications of written language to preserve an account of verbal language and body language.
The written language of the Bible in Acts 10 indicate that Peter saw gentiles receiving the Holy Ghost exactly as the converts in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.
In applying the sermanof Acts 10:34-43, each of us has to choose whether it came from Peter's reactive nature or by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I choose to believe that it was uttered under the same annointing as the scripture, below.
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Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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Ac 10:34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
This word was sent by God to the children of Israel. Peter was sent by a vision with the word from God that was sent to the children of Israel. Having been sent by God to the children of Israel, this word reaches, even, this centurian.
The converts on the day of Pentecost received the Holy Ghost as the fulfillment of a promise to Israel. The gentiles received it the same way.
The manifestation of the Spirit through speaking in tounges (which Peter recognized as prophesying in other languages) was not a promise to non-Israelites.
Isogesis is a thing of which many are ready to accuse others. An example of isogesis is reading a prophecy to one person and applying that prophecy to someone else.
In other words, if God makes a prophecy to Israel, it would be "isogesic" to include non-Israelites in the fulfillment of that prophecy on an equal basis with Israelites.
However, because of the way the non-Israelite nations treat geneologies, we assume the gentiles are not descendants of Israel.
However, God told our Israelite fathers that He was sending ten of their tribes into all of the nations. God, also, told our Israelite fathers that He was going to redeem and gather the outcasts of the tribes of Israel which had been exiled. Then, He had some of our Israelite fathers record the exile. Then, after Jesus redeemed Israel, God had more of our Israelite fathers tell us that He had kept His promise to redeem Israel as they went out with the gospel, through the nations, in search of the sheep upon the hearts of which God had written His law.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
I hope you understand that I believe the people who have responded to the gospel in faith got that faith as a gift from the God who promised to make a new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel. That includes TWELVE tribes.
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Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The New Covenant writers say that this is what happened.
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Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
They shall become my people.
Dear Believers, it does not matter what I think- it matters what I believe.
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Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
The testimony of the Lord is ALL that I can count on. If I stay simple, not leaning to my own understanding, the testimony of the Lord will make me wise.
My God is VERY, VERY big.
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Is 65:1 ¶ I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
1Co 3:18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
21 ¶ Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
23 And ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.
Ro 11:33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Ro 19:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
According to Paul, each man is to recognize Christ as his head.
quote:
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Nevertheless, there are men who seem to say to Christians, "Is it better that you have to spend all that time learning and interpreting the words of all the Bible writers, or to just let me teach you the words that you need to know."
quote:
Ju 8:1 ¶ And Abimelech the son of Jerubbaal went to Shechem unto his mother’s brethren, and communed with them, and with all the family of the house of his mother’s father, saying,
2 Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether is better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, which are threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I am your bone and your flesh.
Sometimes, they look like real Bible teachers, but they are illegitimate.
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Ju 8:29 ¶ And Jerubbaal the son of Joash went and dwelt in his own house.
30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives.
31 And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son, whose name he called Abimelech.
Also, they think nothing of taking money for their nasty work and doing character assassinations of more qualified brothers.
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Ju 9:4 And they gave him threescore and ten pieces of silver out of the house of Baalberith, wherewith Abimelech hired vain and light persons, which followed him.
5 And he went unto his father’s house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, being threescore and ten persons, upon one stone: notwithstanding yet Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left; for he hid himself.
Abimelech has nothing to with Christ: neither do those which cause divisions and offenses.
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Ro 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
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Eden
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posted
Hi, scythewieldor, you wrote quote:
When Peter saw the same manifestation in the gentiles {at Cornelius's house}, he knew he was looking at members of the ten lost tribes of Israel.
How do you know what Peter was thinking when he saw Cornelius and his relatives and friends also receive the Holy Spirit?
Now, I understand the power and ability of God, but don't you think it is EXTRAORDINARY to assert that WHEREVER there are people who have assembled somewhere and became Christians, are ALL underneath members of the 10 tribes of Israel?
As I wrote this, I was again reminded of the tens of millions of South Korean believers and the millions of Chinese believers secretly assembling in forests and in farmhouses, and your assertion that all of these Korean and Chinese believers "must be descended from Bilhah or Zilpah", or that they "must really not be Christians and only THINK they are Christians".
That IS what you are asserting, right, sythewieldor?
love, Eden
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by scythewieldor:
Dear Believers,
Judges 9 is a passage that tells us what happens to people of Israel who refuse to enjoy the reign of the Lord, but insist, instead, upon setting a man to rule over them.
quote:
Ju 8:22 ¶ Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian.
23 And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall rule over you.
34 And the children of Israel remembered not the LORD their God, who had delivered them out of the hands of all their enemies on every side:
I think of the relationship between Abimelech and the men of Shechem as similar to the one between the teachers who divide Christians for their own support (concerning which Paul warned the Ephesian elders in Miletus)and those who allow that preacher to separate them from the Head of the Body of Christ.
I hardly think that "The bramble" has anything what soever to do with Christ.
Nice try...
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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scythewieldor
unregistered
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posted
Dear Believers,
Judges 9 is a passage that tells us what happens to people of Israel who refuse to enjoy the reign of the Lord, but insist, instead, upon setting a man to rule over them.
quote:
Ju 8:22 ¶ Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian.
23 And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall rule over you.
34 And the children of Israel remembered not the LORD their God, who had delivered them out of the hands of all their enemies on every side:
I think of the relationship between Abimelech and the men of Shechem as similar to the one between the teachers who divide Christians for their own support (concerning which Paul warned the Ephesian elders in Miletus)and those who allow that preacher to separate them from the Head of the Body of Christ.
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
Answering the question about salvation to non-Israelites requires that the audience undertand that cosmology is the context for the short answer, "Yes, in a way." However, the salvation of a dog does not make him a child. Salvation for a dog makes sure that that dog gets good oversight Salvation for a child makes that child a good overseer.
The Syrophoenician woman did not leave as one who had authority to cast out demons. However, because of her faith, her daughter became free from a demon.
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Is 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Please familiarize yourself with the potential given to Israel by God in Deuteronomy 28. Jesus, by keeping the entire law perfectly, inherited that entire potentiality. When you read, in the New Testament, about our inheritance, remember that, for we are joint heirs with Christ Jesus.
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De 28:10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.
As the holy nation, we have the same potentiality of having the fear of us fall on the nations around us that came upon the nations around Jerusalem in the days of King Jehoshaphat.
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2Ch 20:29 And the fear of God was on all the kingdoms of those countries, when they had heard that the LORD fought against the enemies of Israel.
With that influence, we would have great potential to help form judgements in the gates of our enemies and, thus, make life for the people of other nations freer from oppression. That would be a fulfillment of the promise to Jacob that his seed would be a blessing to all the families of the earth.
Now, look at the last two verses in Matthew.
In light of the above, does the mission of God's get any clearer?
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scythewieldor
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Dear Believers,
In Acts 2, God had shown Peter that the gift of the Spirit which had been promised to Israel was that which was causing the manifestation of speaking in tounges. When Peter saw the same manifestation in the gentiles, he knew he was looking at members of the ten lost tribes of Israel.
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