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Author Topic: Two believers
Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Zeena,

quote:
See post #2 on this very thread
This is very confusing. WildB answered Michael when he said "lexical linguistic lecture", but you responded to WildB as if he were answering you.
He made no indication otherwise..

quote:
Ohhh hehe

Yes indeed, for in placing your faith in YOURSELF, you have to take it out of Christ..

quote:
The 'baseball fans' are the visitors to the Christian BBS, and we try to keep them in mind when we post things. It has nothing to do with "placing faith in YOURSELF" - it's just being considerate to the audience.

Yes, very confusing.

So then, I'll delete the posts? [Confused]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Carol Swenson
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Zeena,

quote:
See post #2 on this very thread
This is very confusing. WildB answered Michael when he said "lexical linguistic lecture", but you responded to WildB as if he were answering you.

quote:
Ohhh hehe

Yes indeed, for in placing your faith in YOURSELF, you have to take it out of Christ..

The 'baseball fans' are the visitors to the Christian BBS, and we try to keep them in mind when we post things. It has nothing to do with "placing faith in YOURSELF" - it's just being considerate to the audience.

Yes, very confusing.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Stop acting Like MH .

1 Corinthians 9:16-23
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
What?

"lexical linguistic lecture"

you mean talking turkey?

See post #2 on this very thread [Wink]
don't need to . Its the baseball fans that are at a lose.
Ohhh hehe

Yes indeed, for in placing your faith in YOURSELF, you have to take it out of Christ.. [Frown]

Which one of us can do anything that God Himself has not ordained?
Is there anyone here who can add a measure of faith to himself?

Matthew 6:27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

No, it is God who gives a measure of faith to every man! And for us to sit here harping on someone becuase of thier lack of faith is to call God Himself into judgement!!!

Romans 11:30-
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Where, and upon whom we place the measure of faith God has given to us is in God's hands. He both softens and hardens the hearts of men according to His OWN Character.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
What?

"lexical linguistic lecture"

you mean talking turkey?

See post #2 on this very thread [Wink]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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heh

But the Faith OF God is Eternal [Wink]

Isn't that The Faith we've recieved in Christ?

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael Harrison
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[Bible]
Carmela! [happyhappy] I do know that the most trying ones to be around can be the most immediate members of one's own family. In fact, I have to confess that they can cut through one's victory like a knife, because they have this perception of ownership, and can be very trying as a result. Usually you are just 'property' to them, and they take advantage by making unconscience assumptions, without any respect or recognition whatsoever for the 'object' that is more of less perceived as theirs. I do sympathize with ya, and praise the Lord for whatever quickening He will give to you. I know it isn't easy.

Now, on the word 'perfect', never minding the lofty lexical linguistic lecture, some people like to 'rationalize' the word 'perfect'. (That means they can't understand it and so they make it fit what they can understand.) For example, where scripture says, "Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect," these like to substitute the word, mature. [Wink] Let's read it that way, "Be ye mature as your heavenly Father is mature." ??? How mature is God our Father? It just doesn't ring true, does it? For God is not mature, He is 'perfect'. Mature is a carnal concept which works in this world only. And since He is our life, then we are expected to be perfect, by His life. Having said that, I am going to leave it there and go to:

Perhaps you are 'not trusting Jesus'. You are perhaps having very little faith in Jesus! Why do I say that? It is not to be insulting. But you said that:

quote:
Michael there's only one problem. At 10:00 you confess your sins and at at 10:01 or sooner, you have already sinned again. It could be a thought, an act, or anger, turning our back on someone in need because we are busy or something, anything. Sometimes, we sin and may not be aware of it.
Well, based on this I would have to ask if you are perhaps instead trusting yourself? And as we can see by the timetable that you personally laid out, we can see just how long faith in ones own self lasts. Maybe a minute. Huh?
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WildB
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[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


Interpretation is of the Spirit application is individual.

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Once God showed me that I was seeing the world though scarred eyes because of my abuse. The woundedness of my past kept me from seeing as clearly and I had to allow God to bring me through a healing process. I couldn't believe how differently things looked after and yet I didn't even know my vision was obstructed. The same is sometimes true for sin. We don't realize we are sinning until it's revealed. Does that make sense?

Carmela,

I know exactly what you mean. [hug]

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Carmela
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Wild B can you please expand more on your post? Thanks. I would just like to make sure I understand what you are saying since I'm learning how differently people interpret the scripture.

I agree Eden but the way I was taking oneinchrist's posts is that we have a sin nature within us but that is different from when we intentionally choose to sin. Sometimes we may be stuck in a certain way of thinking or acting and not even aware that our actions are sinful until God reveals it to us. We go through a process throughout out lives so we have sin in us and God changes us a little at a time.

Once God showed me that I was seeing the world though scarred eyes because of my abuse. The woundedness of my past kept me from seeing as clearly and I had to allow God to bring me through a healing process. I couldn't believe how differently things looked after and yet I didn't even know my vision was obstructed. The same is sometimes true for sin. We don't realize we are sinning until it's revealed. Does that make sense?

For some reason I am not saying what I mean but you did a pretty good job explaining Eden.

--------------------
www.pinecrest.org

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
quote:
Carmela:
We are born with a sin nature

Hi Carmela, we are born 'again' with the Spirit of God, yes?


The Bible says we are Born again OF the Spirit and Sealed until the day of redemption. Yes?
Yes WildB [Smile]

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
Would you agree with me that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin"? It seems to me that "having sin" is inevitable in our humanness, but that "practicing sin" is more of a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will.
To me, these are mere semantics. The fact is that if someone has a historic habitual sin that he or she has "practised" for years, that person, even after they become born again, will most likely NOT be able to resist "doing that again"; they don't want to, but they just about "can't help themselves". Only God can really take it away.
Which is why we are exhorted to confess our sins. [Cross]

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
The Bible says we are Born again OF the Spirit and Sealed until the day of redemption. Yes?
WildB is right. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but we continue to be sanctified throughout our lives.

John 3:5 - 6 (NLT)

Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.


Philippians 1:6 (NIV)

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

God who began a good work of redemption in us will carry it on to completion throughout our lifetime and then finish it when we meet him face-to-face. God’s work for us began when Christ died on the cross in our place. His work in us began when we first believed. Now the Holy Spirit lives in us, enabling us to be more like Christ every day. God not only initiates our salvation, he guarantees its fulfillment (Ephesians 1:13-14).

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Eden
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Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
Would you agree with me that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin"? It seems to me that "having sin" is inevitable in our humanness, but that "practicing sin" is more of a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will.
To me, these are mere semantics. The fact is that if someone has a historic habitual sin that he or she has "practised" for years, that person, even after they become born again, will most likely NOT be able to resist "doing that again"; they don't want to, but they just about "can't help themselves". Only God can really take it away.

IMO, ALL sin is really "a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will"; it was rebellion in the beginning with Adam and it still is rebellion today. Only, today the law of sin is so deeply embedded in our members that it may not look so much like an "intentful violation against God's will", but there is not a sin in the world which is NOT an intentful violation of God's will.

So, oneinchrist, please provide me with an example of "a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will" that, say, a bornagain Christian might commit? Thank you so much. Eden

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
quote:
Carmela:
We are born with a sin nature

Hi Carmela, we are born 'again' with the Spirit of God, yes?


The Bible says we are Born again OF the Spirit and Sealed until the day of redemption. Yes?

--------------------
That is all.....

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Carol Swenson
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Hi Carmela...I agree with you.



Luke 18:9 - 14 (NLT)

Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

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Carmela
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Yes Zeena, I agree with you but I do not agree that we can call ourselves perfect as I hear Michael saying. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think I could ever say I'm perfect lest I become arrogant and fall into sin. I feel that when I start considering myself to be perfect, then I may be more likely to let my spiritual guard down. Darn it, I'm so tired from not sleeping much last night that I can't think where the scripture is that says what I'm trying to say. I'll have to try again later.

I definitely choose not to sin deliberately.

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www.pinecrest.org

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Zeena
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quote:
Carmela:
We are born with a sin nature

Hi Carmela, we are born 'again' with the Spirit of God, yes?

And our old nature was crucified with Him, yes?

As it now is we [who are born again and are being filled with the Spirit of God] no longer desire to sin, having been cleansed, yes?

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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oneinchrist
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I agree. Keep the faith.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carmela
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Hello Daniel. It's nice to meet you also.

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin". We are born with a sin nature but when we deliberately sin, we are choosing to follow the wrong master. That's why the bible says we can't sit on the fence. Claiming to be a Christian yet choosing to live a sinful lifestyle just don't go hand in hand. When we truly love the Lord and choose to follow in his ways until we get to the point where we hate our sin, that is how we know which people are true Christians. We all fall short, just as David did, but when we repent of our sins and those sins really break our heart because we turned away for the Lord's ways, it shows in our actions. That is why David is one of my favorite men in the bible. He really loved the Lord and it showed in his actions.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Carmela,
Its nice to meet you. Would you agree with me that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin"? It seems to me that "having sin" is inevitable in our humanness, but that "practicing sin" is more of a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will. I do believe that there is strong warning against willfull sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth of the price paid for our sin. What are your thoughts on this?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Carmela
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I told you I would look into this more, so I did just that. I looked up perfect in the concordance and then I looked up the actual Greek meaning of the words. As you may/may not know, the English bible isn't written word for word from the Greek and Hebrew because not all Greek/Hebrew words can be translated exactly. Scholars often used words they felt fit in the best.

When I looked up perfect, I found that the word wasn't actually used in it's original context. See:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)

739 artios (ar'-tee-os);

from 737; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:

KJV-- perfect.

Here again Heb. 12:23

5048 teleioo (tel-i-o'-o);

from 5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):

KJV-- consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.

In my Greek/English Interlinear Bible the actual word for word English interpretation for 2 Tim 3:17 is this;

The proficient (KJS says perfect)..... The Greek didn't use the word perfect at all. So, that isn't saying we are actually made perfect. It's saying we to be complete. The meaning of proficient is this;

: well advanced in an art, occupation, or branch of knowledge
— proficient noun
— pro·fi·cient·ly adverb
synonyms proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert mean having great knowledge and experience in a trade or profession. proficient implies a thorough competence derived from training and practice . adept implies special aptitude as well as proficiency . skilled stresses mastery of technique . skillful implies individual dexterity in execution or performance . expert implies extraordinary proficiency and often connotes knowledge as well as technical skill .


Even in the Old Testament, I looked up scriptures where God called men perfect.

1 Kings 8:61 perfect means this

8003 shalem (shaw-lame');

from 7999; complete (literally or figuratively); especially friendly:

KJV-- full, just, made ready, peaceable, perfect (-ed), quiet, Shalem [by mistake for a name], whole.

Gen. 17:1
8549 tamiym (taw-meem');

from 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:

KJV-- without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

It's the KJV that adds the word perfect, not the original Hebrew.

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www.pinecrest.org

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Carmela
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I was just thinking, you want to prove perfection but you seem to be stating your opinions instead of showing us your point through scriptures. If you want to change someone's point of view, it would be much more helpful if you use scripture and show us what point you are making from a biblical stand point. Then, we can reflect more on the Word and see what the Lord shows us.

Thanks.

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Carmela
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No Michael, I'm just admitting that I fall short sometimes. Some days more than others.

May I ask if you are married Michael? If so, does your wife believe the same as you do? If you are married, you know how easy it can be to get upset with your parner. The same is true if a person just lives with a roommate. How about that co-worker that just really seems to annoy you? Although we may be on our guard at all times, we still sin. Yes, we are saved under grace and our sin is covered with the blood, but it doesn't mean we are without sin all of the time. I know that I am forgiven. I know that the Lord loves me, even when I may not feel loveable some day, but I also know that I am not perfected yet. Covered by the blood yes, perfect, not even close. That day of perfection is coming, but if I say I am without sin, I lie. The bible wouldn't have put that that statement in if we weren't to use it to keep us humble. I truly believe that once I believe I am sin free, then I will more vulnerable to fall.

The bible does say we are to be perfect. It says Solomon didn't have a perfect heart like his father David, but I guess I'll have to study it more because it doesn't say sin free. So, tomorrow I'll try to look at the scriptures about perfection more and see what the Lord shows me. Then, I'll get back to you. However, we do all sin and fall short of the glory of God also. The bible says we are righteous with God, but it also says we are still sinners. It only takes a thought and no matter how close we are to God, we still fall short at times.

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Michael Harrison
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Tsk, tsk tsk! Carmela! I know that there was a sacrifice for the 'unknown' sin under the Old Covenant. And There is provision in the New thankfully, because I know what you are saying, however, you are missing something. If you sin that quickly, you are in bondage to it. If you (plural, as always, including everyone, even me) sin that quickly from moment to moment, why? You make it sound as though one is subject to it without remedy. So you are expressing your 'experience' rather than the 'word'. Amen.
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Carmela
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Michael there's only one problem. At 10:00 you confess your sins and at at 10:01 or sooner, you have already sinned again. It could be a thought, an act, or anger, turning our back on someone in need because we are busy or something, anything. Sometimes, we sin and may not be aware of it. Yes, our sins are covered by the blood. However, sometimes we are in sin and don't realize it. I think everyone has areas in their lives where we were wounded and we hold pain, resentment, unforgiveness, anger, whatever, and we don't even realize it yet. Why? Because God deals with us when we are ready and not one minute sooner. God isn't going to bring up something before He knows you are strong enough to handle it. We also have generational sins that may not have yet been repented for and those often affect us.

It isn't always black and white Michael. Sure, if a handsome man/woman comes our way and we sin as David did, we realize we have sinned becauase that's an obvious sin. However, even David had to go through a process before he was ready to repent and turn from his sin. He tried to cover it up, remember. So I wonder, how many sins have we committed, past or present, that we are still covering up and unready to deal with/ repent of. We all have them. How do I know? I know each time God brings me through another process of healing.

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Zeena
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Jesus I have no life, come and be my Life, Lord!

Thank you! [rapture]

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Carmela wrote
quote:
We need to allow God to change us. To be willing. When this happened to me, it wasn’t anything I did on my own or can recreate. I was at a place were I was so desperate for God, that He was able to change me.
Set my spirit free, that I may worship You. LORD, have mercy on me a sinner. Create in me a clean heart.

Which of these did we do ourselves? None. We are so wound up with bondage that we cannot find our way. Only God can unwind us. So we need to ask, LORD, change me, because if I have to change myself "it ain't gonna happen".

love, Eden
"something beautiful"

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Michael Harrison said
quote:
My number one beef is that no one reads scripture the way it is written. They do not get before Him as they read the word. What happens in that case is that the 'old man' misinterprets the meaning of the word. In other words, the carnal man (who is our old nature), distorts the meaning.
Whoa!! Your number one beef???

First of all, how do you even KNOW this; have you been to all our houses and seen how we live and what we do? And frankly, there is not a Christian alive who does not distort the meaning of Scriptures at one time or another to suit their current paradigm of a particular passage or of the Bible in its entirety.

My number one beef is that you even care what I do in my home and how I live my life before God; it is none of your business. If you want to share how you are doing inside your house and how you live and what you do, primarily as regards the Bible (I'm not interested in hearing about the non-Christian things you do), but unless you are a prophet who has "seen what we do by the Spirit", you have no business peeping into our houses or to imply that we should "live according to Michael Harrison" because "it is his number one beef" that people don't live like Michael Harrison thinks they should live.

Michael Harrison, if you spent more time minding your own business, instead of other people's business, it would be time well-spent. [Bible]

Michael Harrison said
quote:
My number one beef is that no one reads scripture the way it is written. They do not get before Him as they read the word. What happens in that case is that the 'old man' misinterprets the meaning of the word. In other words, the carnal man (who is our old nature), distorts the meaning.
Whoa!!

with love, Eden

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Zeena
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In Christ, YOU ARE FREE from the authority of sin. The "old man" is now out of the picture: "knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should NO LONGER BE SLAVES of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin" (Rom 6:6). What liberating truth! (John 8:32).

1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Christ's sinless life qualifies Him as our advocate. "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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So then, you're saying your sinless.. [Confused]

http://www.crosswaystolife.org/prep4revival.htm

Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 10:1-10
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael Harrison
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My number one beef is that no one reads scripture the way it is written. They do not get before Him as they read the word. What happens in that case is that the 'old man' misinterprets the meaning of the word. In other words, the carnal man (who is our old nature), distorts the meaning.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Reconcile this please! In the passage above he says, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves." But something happens if we admit that we are sinners (which some don't). See the verse below.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from 'all' unrighteousness.

What then is he saying? He is not saying that we are stuck with sin. He is saying that we cannot deny that all have sinned and necessarily come short of the glory of God. Therefore to come nigh to the glory of God, admitting our condition and accepting His provision allows Him to "Cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Therefore, by His grace, the previous verse is no longer true (which is how that works. He forgives. HE restores. HE reconciles, which is the true mark of redemption. Otherwise he would not have said, "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have FELLOWSHIP one with another and the blood of Jesus CLEANSES us from 'all'/'all' sin." For if it were not so, we would have NO FELLOWSHIP, with each other. Because He cannot fellowship with sin. And fellowship with Him is now. Don't wait for it.

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Zeena
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quote:
Jesus died so that we could be sin free
1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Jesus died as the propitiation for our sin.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
2. I think we all agree that none of us are perfect. If we said we are sin free, the bible says we are liars.
No carmela, we don't all agree. That is not Biblical. Jesus is our perfection, so we have no excuse. We are not perfect of ourselves. We can 'do' nothing to be perfect, but Jesus makes us perfect, by faith. Thankfully he is merciful however,because even with such wonderful provision, we seem to insist on ruining it. But if HE gives us His perfection, and we trample it, it is dismay upon dismay. And it is pretty easy to do.

But our perfection is by Him as we trust Him for it and we do not stip out of it. How do we step out of it? We step out by obeying our lusts. Regrettably, most people will never know what it is to 'step into' it. So they live consistantly in their lusts and justify it to make themselves feel better. You know what is stranger, they use the word of God to justify it!

And scripture does not say that we are not sin free. It says quite the opposite. Jesus died so that we could be sin free, even though that is not the experience people admit to. The reason is that they don't understand the operation of faith. End of file.

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Zeena
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James 4:5-7
Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The Spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Carmela
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I was thinking about something earlier. This winter there was a boy at Pinecrest (bible school here) and he is like 5 or 6 years old. One day, out of the blue, at lunch he went around and asked a few students a profound question. So profound, that his grandmother knew that he could only have gotten this wisdom from God because he wasn't taught it. He asked, “do you hate your sins?” Some students ignored him and others just replied yes and went back to what they were doing. I wonder though, did these students “really” understand what this young boy was asking.

DO YOU HATE YOUR SINS? Do you hate your sins so much that they detest you? Do you hate them so much that you immediately stop and repent with a truly repentant heart?

I know that in my life I have made so many bad decisions that I thought were best because I wanted my own way. Then, early this winter, every time I started to pray all I could do was cry. I pray often but all I could do for about 2 months was cry and keep telling God how much I love Him. It wasn’t anything I was able to do in my flesh. I knew it was my spirit crying out to the Lord. I had made such a mess of things and now I’m living with the repercussions of them.

When that time of loving the Lord ended, I felt numb in a way. I couldn’t pray for about a week and I thought I was in a desert place. Now, I look back and I think I was in a place of shock almost. To me, prayer seemed so meaningless for a while. God changed me through that experience. After, I truly hated my sins. I would literally cry instantly when I started to contemplate sin. I learned what it meant to really hate my sin and it started because of one small boy that was asking a simple question for God. Do you hate your sins?

There are times when I still don’t spend as much time in the word as I should or I feel like I’m praying wrong or I just sin. But now, I hate my sin.

We need to allow God to change us. To be willing. When this happened to me, it wasn’t anything I did on my own or can recreate. I was at a place were I was so desperate for God, that He was able to change me.

So I ask once more, “DO YOU HATE YOUR SINS?” Let Him change you.

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yahsway
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Good post Carmela and apilgrim2.
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apilgrim2
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That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit.

Those who receive Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior also receive a new heart, also described as 'the new nature', also called 'the new man'.

Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Eph 1:14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The old nature and the new nature remain in the saved believer, and exist side by side in a battle for control of the believer's thought/actions. Every true believer in Christ will experience the conflict of the old and new natures within him/herself.

Starve the old nature and see it weakened day by day; feed the new nature and see it strengthened day by day.

Upon the death of the believer the old nature (the old man) dies and returns to the dust from whence he came. The new nature (the new man) sleeps in Christ until resurrection.

Prayer is the breath of the new nature.

Praise the LORD!

apilgrim2

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"Relativity applies to physics, NOT ethics." - A. Einstein

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Carmela
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I think you made a good point. We must be born again and we must choose to turn our backs on sin. Yet, I think it was Paul but can't remember right now, said he does what he doesn't want to do and doesn't do what he wants to do.

Staying sin free isn't always easy. It isn't possible to go through one day without some type of sin coming from us. If it were, we wouldn't need the blood or repentance.

Oh and just to clarify my earlier post, I do realize God is in me, but that happened once I became Born Again. I didn't have to work for that. I only have to work at staying close to the Lord and seeking Him daily in order to stay in a place where I end up hating my sin so much that I no longer want to walk in sin or choose to do things according to my own selfish desires.

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yahsway
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Some religons consider the body evil or inferior to the soul, but the Bible teaches that the body is Gods good gift to us (Gen1:31)

It is a necessary for a fully human existence(Gen 2:7)

Paul teaches that the body is often the "instrument" of sin (1 Cor 6:18) that the body must die as a penalty for sin (Romans 7:24)
AND that sin dishonors a persons body(Rom 1:24)

On the other hand, believers in Christ may "put to death the deeds of the body (Rom 8:13) and present their bodies as holy sacrifices that Please God.(Rom 12:1)

What are the works of the flesh? What did Yeshua say about adultry? He said if you even LOOK upon a woman with lust in your heart you have committed it (adultry)

To get a "glorified body" one that will not decay "from dust you were made and to dust you shall return" You first have to do something.

You must be Born-again.

What is "being made in the image and likeness of God" mean?

It refers to qualities as reason, personality and intellect, and to the capacity to relate, to hear, to see, and to speak.

You must be born-again!

Your "members" are the various parts of our bodies, representative of all aspects of our lives.

We have a continual choice, day after day whether to yeild ourselves to sin or to God.

If sin has destructive effects in our lives, then, of course we should "not let it reign in our bodies"
A person is a slave to that which he/she gives obediance to.

"Do not present your members as instruments of unrightousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of rightousness to God.

To walk according to the "flesh" is to follow the sinful desires of ones OLD life. You must be born-again!

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Carmela
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Gee, if only I realized I could have made that entire statement in just a short sentence. I'm a bit long winded at times. ;-) I forgot how to use the smilies since I've been away so long so I will use this type. lol

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Eden
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[happyhappy]
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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Carmela wrote
quote:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.
John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you {have fruit}, except you abide in Me.

John 15:7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, THEN you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

love, Eden

WooT WooT! [clap2]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Eden
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Carmela wrote
quote:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.
John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you {have fruit}, except you abide in Me.

John 15:7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, THEN you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Mark 11:23
For verily I {Jesus} say to you, That whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be you removed and be you cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he SAYS shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he says.

And why shall he have "whatsoever he says[/b]"? Because if what he said came from the Spirit of God through the spirit of man, then he (the soul) shall have "whatsoever he says" because God will not say anything unless God also provided the means to do what God asked me to do.

So if I abide in Him, and He in me, only then can I bear fruit and have what I say. Because:

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you, I do not speak Myself: but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.

Carmela wrote
quote:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.
love, Eden
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Zeena
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quote:
Carmela:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.

John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Carmela
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I'm sorry but due to difficulty sitting at the computer too long from an injury, I skimmed through some posts so if I missed something or repeated, please forgive me.

However, sometimes I read what is being said and I'm like, "WHAT!" I feel as if sometimes people try to answer things biblically, which is good of course, but it can often complicate things. So, I'm going to attempt to put it in my own simple way. For me, I find picturing things easier to understand.

I can’t remember where I heard this, but I remember someone once saying that she remembered her mother or grandmother always had a lamp on the desk and an open bible. Any free time the woman had during her daily routine, she would go to the desk and read the bible and pray.

What I am reading and interpreting from the posts about the sin nature and I think we pretty much all agree on in our own ways of saying it is this:

1. Christ died for our sins so we are now dead to sin. I agree, but I also know that in reality, I still sin unfortunately.

2. I think we all agree that none of us are perfect. If we said we are sin free, the bible says we are liars.

3. There is a way to avoid sins in our daily lives and struggles.

So, how do we avoid sin. Well, when I was in bible school, I saw many people that chose to sin and you could see in their lives that they didn’t really have a heart that was truly seeking after God. It showed in their actions, their words, and their attitudes. Sometimes, even in their sinful ways.

There were others that were truly seeking to know more about the Word and God’s ways and it was so obvious. You could see a difference in their attitude and daily lives. However, due to homework, classes and daily church before classes, we were forced to be in God’s word all of the time. Because of that, we saw changes in our lives. Even those that weren’t as serious about God had made positive changes because of being in the Word so much.

Now, I’m done school and back to my daily routines of being a mom and house wife. I home schooled so most of my time was spent teaching school by day, correcting papers and planning the next day by night and house work and meals, ect. When I finally had free time, I just wanted to sit in front of the TV or something. I started noticing that I was becoming more frustrated, burned out, ect. So my point is this. Thought the years I have seen how the more time spent reading God’s word, praying and listening for God to speak to us, the less of our lustful desires were hindering us.

We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible. I certainly know how hard that can be at times, but my daughter has been gone for a month and I started spending my free time doing all sorts of cleaning and stuff because it feels good to actually clean something and have it stay that way for more than a few hours. ;-) I would also do many other things but I wasn’t taking time to read God’s word. I was only praying throughout the day. Prayer is good, but I am not completing all of the tasks that the Lord has put before me in order to flee from sin successfully. I think we have all done this, which is why we all still sin. I think it goes much further than just sin nature/righteous nature. You have heard the saying, “actions speak louder than words”. Well, we need to line our actions back up to a righteous level and seek God first and in ALL of our ways “acknowledge” HIM. The more time we spend seeking, the less we sin and the more Christ-like we become.

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Eden
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Hi, Yahsway, thanks for participating. May your marriage be blessed. You also said, [quote]Eden, I think it's more like we have a sinful NATURE, not Body.[/b]Okay, but where is this sinful nature located?

On the one hand, the soul is the one who directs the body, so it must be the soul which is habituated and accustomed to operating the body in a sinful way after having lost access to the Spirit of God eversince Adam and Eve.

But Paul seems to say that there is a law of sin in his members too:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Okay then I shall ask you, where are these members, which contain this law of sin,
located
, yahsway? Are "my members" my soul, or "my body"?

love, Eden
"I thank God for another day"

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yahsway
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Eden, I think its more like we have a sinful NATURE, not Body.

Our bodies can only act upon sin that our mind wills it to.


To await our glorified body is to await that which will never die.

Right now we age, have diseases, infirmites in our human bodies beyond some of our controls.

And a lot of people have sick bodies but that does not mean its because of some sin they commit.

My point being is that its not our human bodies that sin as if we dont have control over our bodies.

Paul says "But i disciple my body and bring it into subjection, lest when i have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

Sin entered the world thru Adams and Eves Disobediance, NOT because their Body was Bad, sinful.

God created the human body. And yes, it was to live forever until Adam and Eve disobeyed.

But now that we have Obeyed the gospel and belong to Yeshua, when He ransomes us then He will give us a body that will never die.

The Gnostics taught that the humand body was "bad, sinful" and encouraged men not to marry women for it was sinful to have sex ect...

They also taught that certain foods were not to be eaten which would corrupt the sinful body even further.

A lot of what the Catholic church teaches comes straight from these Gnostic teachings.

But Gods first commandment was for us to be fruitful and multiply.

And food is well recieved if we eat it with thanksgiving unto God.

The Mormons teach their women that their bodies are "bad" and sinful.

It is not our human bodies but our will(free will) as to what we will our bodies to do.

Sin starts as a thought. Acting upon it causes the body to sin. But we can bring our thoughts thru the Holy Spirit into subjection to the Spirits will and not ours.

I dont think our "bodies" are sinful but Our Nature.

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Eden
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By God, Michael Harrison, I think you got it
quote:
Well, if you are right I don't know it yet. I am glad for you. But the way I see it, he wasn't saying that we cannot be alive to sin again. He is saying, "How can your conscience bear for you to continue in sin?" It is more of a reproval. It is a question addressing why they are still living in sin. Because Jesus is the power to live beyond it. And let me tell you each and every one, I am not aloof. I know what weakness is. I fully know. Fortunately, He has revealed to me something of great value, that helps me to skip over the lake like a rock thrown at skipping angle which bounces over the water. (I am giving place to Eden's advice here). There is a way to please Him, and not please ourselves.
love, Eden
"make me over"

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Zeena
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It is not our nature to sin any longer, but sin tries to take hold of us..

quote:
The Law of Liberty in the Spiritual Life, Chapter 1: Sin
By Evan Hopkins

Christ's death, which has separated the believer from the consequences of sin as a transgression, has also separated him from the authority of sin as a master - set him free.

The believer sees that Christ, by dying for him, has completely delivered him from the penalty of sin. So it is his privilege to see that because he is identified with Christ in that death, he is also delivered from sin as a ruling principle. Its power is broken. He is in that sense "free from sin" (Rom. vi. 18, 22).

The purpose of the Apostle, in this sixth chapter, is to show how completely the believer is identified with Christ when "He died unto sin." To enter fully into the meaning of that death is to see that Christ has emancipated us from any further dealings with our old master sin. The believer is privileged thus to take his place in Christ, who is now "alive unto God." From that standpoint he is henceforth to regard sin. He is now and forever free from the old service and the old rule. The Cross has terminated the connection once for all, and terminated it abruptly. It has effected a definite and complete rupture with the old master, sin.

"Such is the Divine secret of Christian sanctification, which distinguishes it profoundly from simple natural morality. The latter says to man, Become what you would be. The former says to the believer, Become what you are already (in Christ). It puts a positive fact at the foundation of moral effort, to which the believer can return and have recourse anew at every instant. And this is the reason why his labour is not lost in barren aspiration, and does not end in despair.

"The believer does not get disentangled from sin gradually; he breaks with it in Christ once for all. He is placed by a decisive act of will in the sphere of perfect holiness, and it is within it that the gradual renewing of the personal life goes forward. This second gospel paradox, sanctification by faith, rests on the first, justification by faith" (Professor Godet on Romans vi).

The Cross is the efficient cause of this deliverance. Freedom from sin's ruling power is the immediate privilege of every believer. It is the essential condition or starting point of true service, as well as of real progress. Such service and growth are as possible for the young convert as for the mature believer. Therefore freedom from sin's dominion is a blessing we may claim by faith, just as we accept pardon. We may claim it as that which Christ has purchased for us, obtained for our immediate acceptance. We may go forth as set free from sin, and as alive unto God in Jesus Christ our Lord. This is freedom from sin as a ruling principle.

It is possible to see in the death of Christ an all-sufficient atonement for sin, and yet not to see that in that death we have also the secret or source of personal purification of sin.

Sin is not merely a load that weighs us down, or an offence that has brought upon us penal consequences. It is an uncleanness that makes us unfit for God's presence. We may have rejoiced in the fact that the load is gone, that the guilt has been atoned for, and yet we may know but little of Christ's power to cleanse. Owing even to one single act of disobedience we may have been thrown out of communion. We have thus become conscious, not only of guilt, but of defilement.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Eden
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Dear sister Zeena, you said to yahsway
quote:
Now for the response (for how NOT to sin).

Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ

BUT, we CAN give in to the enemy quite easily by resisting the Grace of God in Christ Jesus!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.

But we can only resist something that we are listening to; it is a sadder fact that many Christians are hardly bothering to "listen to what the Holy Spirit says to their spirit of man"; they are yet ruling by their AdamEve soul, eventhough they accepted Christ.

So, to repeat what you said, Zeena[/quote]Now for the response (to how NOT to sin).

Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ

BUT, we CAN give in to the enemy quite easily by resisting the Grace of God in Christ Jesus!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.[/quote]This only works if someone is already listening to the Spirit of God. Most Christians are probably NOT EVEN listening to the Spirit of God YET! They are yet in soul-self rule over the body.

So, yes, even Christians who are ALREADY listening to the Spirit of God (having given back the rule over the body from the soull to the spirit of man), even that person who thus listens to his spirit, even he will resist what the Spirit of God said some of the time.

love, Eden

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