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Author Topic: Two believers
Eden
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Hi, sister yahsway, u wrote
quote:
Therfore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey in its lusts.

We have a continual choice day after day whether to yield ourselves to sin or to God.(Romans 6:13)

Sin only reigns in us if we permit it.

Yes, I agree. But we should also acknowledge and state that no man will be able to totally 100% escape this sinful nature which we inherited by 3,000 years of practice from Adam and Eve, namely, soul rule.

We will always sin in some things (though we may have small and large victories) until we receive our glorified bodies.

For now, ONLY JESUS HAS A GLORIFIED BODY, and we still have SINFUL ADAM/EVE BODIES.

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit put into Miriam (Mary/Maria), so that Jesus DID NOT come up through the AdamEve line, Jesus BYPASSED the sinful genes from AdamEve to Miriam.

But we are FULL of AdamEve, from Adam to today and it has not yet ended. So, yahsway, my concern is that we state, "yes, we must pay attaention to sin and try with help of reading the Word of God and hearing from the Spirit of God to "improve" some of our behaviors".

But we must not imply, as often seems to happen, that we CAN STOP ALL SIN; that, I think, is not true, not until we receive our glorfiied body. We must thus also accept the fact that we will always sin to SOME EXTENT, but hopefully LESS THAN BEFORE with the help of God, especially now that we are inside the family camp of God.

with love, Eden

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Eden
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Michael Harrison said
quote:
Well Eden, I have been around you for several months now, and you haven't heard what has been said. So now you pin it down, and you are a skeptic.
I'm not a skeptic, the LORD has been blessing my socks off lately.

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself also in the LORD: and He shall give you the desires of your heart.

Exodus 15:25
And Moses cried to the LORD; and the LORD showed him a tree, which, when he had thrown it into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them.

This tree which was thrown into the bitter waters was a type of Jesus, Who, when He was cast into the bitter world, made the water sweeter of whosoever will; if we are not becoming sweeter than we used to be, there is something wrong.

love, Eden
"Yea, I get another day!"

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ

Well, if you are right I don't know it yet. I am glad for you.
I'm so glad the Holy Spirit witnessed to you what I was expressing with words!

PRAISE JESUS! [hyper]

For words honestly don't do justice to the Grace provided us!

With that same understanding, I exhort you in the Holy Spirit to read through Ephesians 1 [Big Grin]

"making mention of you in my prayers" Michael! [Prayer]

Romans 7:5-6
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Good post by Watchman Nee.Nevertheless it is in the semantics. Though the old man is dead in fact by the work of Jesus on the Cross, it is not our reality until by faith, we realize it. And it is all about faith.

It's God's reality, whether or not we 'realise' it.

quote:
Michael:
So, since we do not realize it until the outward man is broken (Watchman Nee) we do not benefit. Suffice it to be said that there is something in the words of Paul that most do not discover. And though you may not appreciate this (out there), please do.

We'll only ever come to know the Truth by Grace through faith.

Jesus is God's Provision. [Smile]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael Harrison
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Good post by Watchman Nee. Nevertheless it is in the semantics. Though the old man is dead in fact by the work of Jesus on the Cross, it is not our reality until by faith, we realize it. And it is all about faith. So, since we do not realize it until the outward man is broken (Watchman Nee) we do not benefit. Suffice it to be said that there is something in the words of Paul that most do not discover. And though you may not appreciate this (out there), please do.
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ

Well, if you are right I don't know it yet. I am glad for you. But the way I see it, he wasn't saying that we cannot be alive to sin again. He is saying, "How can your conscience bear for you to continue in sin?" It is more of a reproval. It is a question addressing why they are still living in sin. Because Jesus is the power to live beyond it. And let me tell you each and every one, I am not aloof. I know what weakness is. I fully know. Fortunately, He has revealed to me something of great value, that helps me to skip over the lake like a rock thrown at skipping angle which bounces over the water. (I am giving place to Eden's advice here). There is a way to please Him, and not please ourselves. For, pleasing ourselves goes nowhere. It only makes us to feel condemned. It is no way to live, fulfilling our lusts, and expecting the indignation of God. And we don't have to.
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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
And how would one let sin reign in his/her mortal body?

O lol, just a reaction! [spiny]

I had thought you had said how NOT to! [updown]

Now for the response. [Wink]

Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ [Smile]

BUT, we CAN give in to the enemy quite easily by resisting the Grace of God in Christ Jesus!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.

Colossians 3 [Entire chapter]

Here's the first few verses to bring you into remembrance [Wink]

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In other words, if our gaze is earthbound, we WILL sin. But if we keep our eyes on Jesus sin will flee away! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
Chapter 10, The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee:

Mere mental assimilation of these truths cannot withstand temptation, however. The revelation of God is positively essential. The Spirit of God must reveal how we are in Christ and how we are united with Him in one. He must also show us distinctly how our old man was crucified with Christ for the simple reason that we are in Christ. This cannot be simply a mental comprehension; it must be a disclosure of the Holy Spirit. When a truth is unfolded by God it most naturally becomes a power in man, who then finds himself able to believe. Faith comes through revelation. Without the latter the former is impossible. This explains why many do not have faith, for though they mentally understand they do not have God's revelation. Therefore, brethren pray until God gives us revelation so that "knowing this" in our spirit we may truly confess "that our old man has been crucified with him.



--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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yahsway
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Exactly! We went there too. SO, we are not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies.

And how would one let sin reign in his/her mortal body?

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Zeena
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quote:
Chapter 10, The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee:

Now how can a man be delivered from sin? Some theorize that since sin is the first cause we must annihilate it in order to attain victory; accordingly they advocate "the eradication of sin." Once the root of sin is pulled out, think these, we never shall sin again and are obviously sanctified. Others argue that we must subdue our body if we desire to overcome sin, for is it not our body, they ask, which practices sin? So there arises in Christendom a group of people who promote asceticism. They use many techniques to suppress themselves for they anticipate that once they overcome the demands of their bodies they shall be holy. None of these is God's way. Romans 6.6 is transparent as to His way. He neither eradicates the root of sin-within nor suppresses the body without. Rather, God deals with the old man in between.

GOD'S FACT

The Lord Jesus in going to the cross took with Him not only our sins but also our beings. Paul enunciates this fact by proclaiming "that our old man has been crucified with him." The verb "crucified" in the original is in the aorist tense, connoting that our old man was once and forever crucified with Him. As the cross of Christ is a fact accomplished, so our being crucified with Him is additionally an accomplished fact. Whoever questions the reality of the crucifixion of Christ? Why, then, should we doubt the reality of the crucifixion of our old man?

Many saints, upon hearing the truth of co-death, immediately assume that they ought to die, and so they try their best to crucify themselves. Either lack of God's revelation or lack of faith accounts for this attitude. They not only do this themselves; they teach others so to do as well. The results are too obvious: no power is theirs to be freed from sin and their old man they feel will not die.

This is a grievous misjudgment. The Bible never instructs us to crucify ourselves. Precisely the opposite are we told! We are taught that when Christ went to Calvary He took us there and had us crucified. We are not instructed to begin crucifying ourselves now; instead the Scriptures assure us that our old man was dealt with at the time Christ went to the cross. Romans 6.6 alone is sufficient to substantiate this. There is not the remotest idea conveyed of desiring to crucify ourselves, nor does the Word in the slightest sense imply that our crucifixion awaits realization. The verse in Romans 6 permits no room for doubt when it categorically pronounces that we were crucified with Christ, a fact already accomplished. This is truly the effect of the most precious phrase in the Bible-"in Christ." It is because we are in Him and are united with Him that we can say that when Christ went to the cross we went there. in Him, that when Christ was crucified we too were crucified in Him. What a wonderful reality that we are in Christ!

Mere mental assimilation of these truths cannot withstand temptation, however. The revelation of God is positively essential. The Spirit of God must reveal how we are in Christ and how we are united with Him in one. He must also show us distinctly how our old man was crucified with Christ for the simple reason that we are in Christ. This cannot be simply a mental comprehension; it must be a disclosure of the Holy Spirit. When a truth is unfolded by God it most naturally becomes a power in man, who then finds himself able to believe. Faith comes through revelation. Without the latter the former is impossible. This explains why many do not have faith, for though they mentally understand they do not have God's revelation. Therefore, brethren pray until God gives us revelation so that "knowing this" in our spirit we may truly confess "that our old man has been crucified with him.

Philippians 3:7-11
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Oh to know the power of Your risen life,
And to know You in Your sufferings;
To become like You in Your death, my Lord,
So with You to live and never die.

Knowing You, Jesus, knowing You
There is no greater thing.
You're my all, You're the best,
You're my joy, my righteousness,
And I love You Lord.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ucAzJhs-KgI

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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yahsway
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Is it the Body that sins or is it what we will our bodies to do?

Our Old Man is our preconversion life, what we were before coming Christiansunder the unrestrained dominon of the flesh (sin nature)

The body of sin refers to the sinful nature within us. NOT to the human body.

Romans 6:12

Therfore do not let sin reign in your mortal body
that you should obey in its lusts.

We have a continual choice day after day whether to yeild ourselves to sin or to God.(Romans 6:13

Sin only reigns in us if we permit it. We must be born again, walking in the newness of life in Him.

We have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God (Romans 6:18)

We become slaves of rightousness.

I agree with MH on this one. The NT has a lot to say about sin.

some people think its the human body that sins. This was what the Gnostics taught.Its not so. God made the human body and saw that it was good(Gen)

Sin begins in the heart, in the mind. We should be letting this mind be in us , that of Christ Jesus.

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Michael Harrison
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Well Eden, I have been around you for several months now, and you haven't heard what has been said. So now you pin it down, and you are a skeptic.

quote:
While we are in this first Adamic body, we cannot escape sinning until we receive our glorified body, only THEN shall we like Him.
To say this you have to flatly deny a whole host of potent scriptures. Powerful ones! You are not defying me. You are defying scripture.

Now concerning the Pharisee, you completely miss the point there also! The Pharisee thought that he did what merited Him the right to boast. When God does it, you are not boasting just because you elaborate on it. Just because you can have it, doesn't mean that you did it.

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? The law of faith" Romans 3:23

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Eden
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Hi, Michael Harrison, you wrote
quote:
There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?
I continue to be amazed by this ALL OR NOTHING view of this matter.

I tend to believe that ALL Christians have areas in them where they are still "self-righteous believers" (when they operate out of the flesh in a particular matter), and ALL Christians have areas in them where they are HIS righteousness Christians.

There is not a man on earth born from the first Adam and Eve race (Jesus was NOT born from that Adam and Eve race), there is NOT a man on earth from that first Adamic race WHO DOES NOT SIN ANYMORE as if all his actions and behaviors are NOW "HIS righteousness Christians".

While we are in this first Adamic body, we cannot escape sinning until we receive our glorified body, only THEN shall we like Him.

It is one thing to encourage Christians to give up their soul rule of their body and let their spirit man rule their soul and body again, so that we Christians will EXPRESS MORE of "what the Spirit says to the church", but there is no one curently alive of the first Adamic race who will "ever be like Jesus" who ALONE was 100% HIS righteoussness.

And the way you write sometimes, and perhaps even often, is "as if you have already attained 100% HIS righteousness" and "why aren't the rest of you also stepping up to the plate!??!!

It's okay to encourage people to listen more to their spirit instead of their soul, but it should not be presented in way which almost implies that "hey! I've achieved 100% HIS righteousness" and why are the rest of you such laggards in this!

So let me repeat what you said, Michael Harrison, you wrote
quote:
There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?
It's not ALL OR NOTHING but BOTH are occurring at the SAME TIME, until we receive our glorified body, only THEN shall we be like Him.

Which is also why we Christians are only really allowed to say, "God, have mercy on me a sinner" and we Christians are NOT allowed to be like the Pharisee who said, "God, I THANK YOU THAT I AM NOT LIKE OTHER MEN, unjust..."

with love, Eden

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Michael Harrison
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Let's [zzzzzz] have a [zzzzzz] slumber party [zzzzzz] [clap2]

Are you dead to the world yet?

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by :

Amen! [Big Grin]

1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Yes Michael receive healing this night.

[Prayer] I will join you in prayer!!! [clap2]

Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Zeena
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You willing to recieve your faith "OF" God then?

Romans 3: 22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference......

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God -- who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Philippians 3: 9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the Law -- but that which is through the faith OF Christ -- the righteousness which is of God -- by faith.

Galatians 3: 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by the faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3: 3 (KJV) For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith OF God without effect?

Philippians 1: 27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith OF the gospel.

Revelations 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God -- and the faith OF Jesus.

Romans 3: 26 (Rheims New Testament) Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of His justice in this time, that He Himself may be just; and the justifier of him who is of the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Romans 3: 22 (Rheims New Testament) Even the justice of God, by the faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe IN Him -- for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.

-----------------------------------------------

John 5: 16-18 (NRSV) Therefore the Jews started persecuting Jesus, because He was doing such things on the sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father is still working, and I also am working." For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to KILL Him.... because He was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God His own Father.... thereby making Himself equal to God.

John 5: 40-44 (NRSV) (Jesus speaking) Yet you (Jews) refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human-beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me.... How can you believe, when you accept glory from one another.... and do not seek the glory that comes from the ONE who ALONE is GOD?

John 6: 41-42 (NRSV) Then the Jews began to complain about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can He now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

John 7: 12-18 (NRSV) And there was considerable complaining about Him (Jesus) among the crowds. While some were saying, "He is a good man," others were saying, "No, He is deceiving the crowd." Yet no one would speak openly about Him, for FEAR of the JEWS. About the middle of the festival, Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach. The Jews were astonished at it, saying, "How does this man have such learning, when He has never been taught?" Then Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but His who SENT me. Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God.... or whether I am speaking on my own. Those who speak on their own, SEEK THEIR OWN GLORY.

John 7: 31-32 Yet many in the crowd believed in Him, and were saying, "When the Messiah comes, will He do more signs than this man has done?" The Pharisees heard the crowd muttering such things about Him.... and the chief priests and the Pharisees sent TEMPLE POLICE to ARREST Him.

John 8: 37 Jesus speaking: I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you look for an opportunity to KILL ME.... because there is NO place in you for MY WORD.

John 8: 40-44 (NRSV) Jesus speaking to Scribes and Pharisees: But now you are trying to KILL ME.... a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.... 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come on my own.... but HE SENT ME. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. You are from YOUR FATHER -- the DEVIL..... and you choose to do your father's desires.

John 8: 47 (NRSV) Jesus speaking to Scribes and Pharisees -- "Whoever is from God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that YOU are not from God."

John 9: 18 (NRSV) The Jews did not believe that he had been blind, and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19 and asked them, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?" 20 His parents answered, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but we do not know how it is that now he sees, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself." 22 His parents said this because they were AFRAID of the JEWS; for the Jews had already agreed that anyone who confessed Jesus to be the Messiah would be PUT OUT of the synagogue.

John 10: 26-31 (NRSV) Jesus speaking to Pharisees. But you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is greater than all else -- and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one." The Jews took up stones again -- to STONE HIM.

John 12: 42-45 (NRSV) Nevertheless many, even of the authorities, believed in Him. But because of the PHARISEES, they did not confess it, for FEAR that they would be put out of the synagogue.... for THEY LOVED HUMAN GLORY more than the GLORY that comes from GOD.

John 19: 12 From then on Pilate tried to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are no friend of the EMPEROR. Everyone who claims to be a king, sets himself against the emperor."

Luke 11:43-48 (NRSV) Jesus speaking: Woe to you Pharisees! For you love to have the seat of honor in the synagogues, and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces. Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without realizing it." One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us too." And He (Jesus) said, "Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear -- and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.

Luke 11: 52-54 (NRSV) Jesus speaking: Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering." When He (Jesus) went outside, the Scribes and the Pharisees began to be VERY HOSTILE toward Him, and to cross-examine Him about many things.... LYING IN WAIT for Him.... to CATCH HIM in something He might say.

Matthew 15: 6 (NRSV) Jesus speaking: So, for the sake of your tradition, you make VOID the word of God. 7 You hypocrites.... Isaiah prophesied rightly about you, when he said: 8 'This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 In vain do they worship me -- teaching HUMAN PRECEPTS as doctrines.'

Luke 16: 15 (NRSV) So He (Jesus) said to them (the Parisees), "You are those who JUSTIFY yourselves in the sight of others; but God knows your hearts -- for what is prized by human beings is an abomination in the sight of God.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

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Michael Harrison
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There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?
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