Christian Message Boards: Two believers

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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

You willing to recieve your faith "OF" God then?

Romans 3: 22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference......

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God -- who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Philippians 3: 9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the Law -- but that which is through the faith OF Christ -- the righteousness which is of God -- by faith.

Galatians 3: 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by the faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3: 3 (KJV) For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith OF God without effect?

Philippians 1: 27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith OF the gospel.

Revelations 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God -- and the faith OF Jesus.

Romans 3: 26 (Rheims New Testament) Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of His justice in this time, that He Himself may be just; and the justifier of him who is of the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Romans 3: 22 (Rheims New Testament) Even the justice of God, by the faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe IN Him -- for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.

-----------------------------------------------

John 5: 16-18 (NRSV) Therefore the Jews started persecuting Jesus, because He was doing such things on the sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father is still working, and I also am working." For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to KILL Him.... because He was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God His own Father.... thereby making Himself equal to God.

John 5: 40-44 (NRSV) (Jesus speaking) Yet you (Jews) refuse to come to me to have life. I do not accept glory from human-beings. But I know that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me.... How can you believe, when you accept glory from one another.... and do not seek the glory that comes from the ONE who ALONE is GOD?

John 6: 41-42 (NRSV) Then the Jews began to complain about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can He now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"

John 7: 12-18 (NRSV) And there was considerable complaining about Him (Jesus) among the crowds. While some were saying, "He is a good man," others were saying, "No, He is deceiving the crowd." Yet no one would speak openly about Him, for FEAR of the JEWS. About the middle of the festival, Jesus went up into the temple and began to teach. The Jews were astonished at it, saying, "How does this man have such learning, when He has never been taught?" Then Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but His who SENT me. Anyone who resolves to do the will of God will know whether the teaching is from God.... or whether I am speaking on my own. Those who speak on their own, SEEK THEIR OWN GLORY.

John 7: 31-32 Yet many in the crowd believed in Him, and were saying, "When the Messiah comes, will He do more signs than this man has done?" The Pharisees heard the crowd muttering such things about Him.... and the chief priests and the Pharisees sent TEMPLE POLICE to ARREST Him.

John 8: 37 Jesus speaking: I know that you are descendants of Abraham; yet you look for an opportunity to KILL ME.... because there is NO place in you for MY WORD.

John 8: 40-44 (NRSV) Jesus speaking to Scribes and Pharisees: But now you are trying to KILL ME.... a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.... 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come on my own.... but HE SENT ME. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word. You are from YOUR FATHER -- the DEVIL..... and you choose to do your father's desires.

John 8: 47 (NRSV) Jesus speaking to Scribes and Pharisees -- "Whoever is from God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that YOU are not from God."

John 9: 18 (NRSV) The Jews did not believe that he had been blind, and had received his sight, until they called the parents of the man who had received his sight 19 and asked them, "Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?" 20 His parents answered, "We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but we do not know how it is that now he sees, nor do we know who opened his eyes. Ask him; he is of age. He will speak for himself." 22 His parents said this because they were AFRAID of the JEWS; for the Jews had already agreed that anyone who confessed Jesus to be the Messiah would be PUT OUT of the synagogue.

John 10: 26-31 (NRSV) Jesus speaking to Pharisees. But you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is greater than all else -- and no one can snatch it out of the Father's hand. The Father and I are one." The Jews took up stones again -- to STONE HIM.

John 12: 42-45 (NRSV) Nevertheless many, even of the authorities, believed in Him. But because of the PHARISEES, they did not confess it, for FEAR that they would be put out of the synagogue.... for THEY LOVED HUMAN GLORY more than the GLORY that comes from GOD.

John 19: 12 From then on Pilate tried to release him, but the Jews cried out, "If you release this man, you are no friend of the EMPEROR. Everyone who claims to be a king, sets himself against the emperor."

Luke 11:43-48 (NRSV) Jesus speaking: Woe to you Pharisees! For you love to have the seat of honor in the synagogues, and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces. Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without realizing it." One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us too." And He (Jesus) said, "Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear -- and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.

Luke 11: 52-54 (NRSV) Jesus speaking: Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering." When He (Jesus) went outside, the Scribes and the Pharisees began to be VERY HOSTILE toward Him, and to cross-examine Him about many things.... LYING IN WAIT for Him.... to CATCH HIM in something He might say.

Matthew 15: 6 (NRSV) Jesus speaking: So, for the sake of your tradition, you make VOID the word of God. 7 You hypocrites.... Isaiah prophesied rightly about you, when he said: 8 'This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 In vain do they worship me -- teaching HUMAN PRECEPTS as doctrines.'

Luke 16: 15 (NRSV) So He (Jesus) said to them (the Parisees), "You are those who JUSTIFY yourselves in the sight of others; but God knows your hearts -- for what is prized by human beings is an abomination in the sight of God.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Yes Michael receive healing this night.

I will join you in prayer!!! [clap2]

Philippians 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by :

Amen!

1 Corinthians 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Let's [zzzzzz]

have a

slumber party [zzzzzz]

Are you dead to the world yet?

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Michael Harrison, you wrote

quote:
There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?

I continue to be amazed by this ALL OR NOTHING view of this matter.

I tend to believe that ALL Christians have areas in them where they are still "self-righteous believers" (when they operate out of the flesh in a particular matter), and ALL Christians have areas in them where they are HIS righteousness Christians.

There is not a man on earth born from the first Adam and Eve race (Jesus was NOT born from that Adam and Eve race), there is NOT a man on earth from that first Adamic race WHO DOES NOT SIN ANYMORE as if all his actions and behaviors are NOW "HIS righteousness Christians".

While we are in this first Adamic body, we cannot escape sinning until we receive our glorified body, only THEN shall we like Him.

It is one thing to encourage Christians to give up their soul rule of their body and let their spirit man rule their soul and body again, so that we Christians will EXPRESS MORE of "what the Spirit says to the church", but there is no one curently alive of the first Adamic race who will "ever be like Jesus" who ALONE was 100% HIS righteoussness.

And the way you write sometimes, and perhaps even often, is "as if you have already attained 100% HIS righteousness" and "why aren't the rest of you also stepping up to the plate!??!!

It's okay to encourage people to listen more to their spirit instead of their soul, but it should not be presented in way which almost implies that "hey! I've achieved 100% HIS righteousness" and why are the rest of you such laggards in this!

So let me repeat what you said, Michael Harrison, you wrote

quote:
There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?

It's not ALL OR NOTHING but BOTH are occurring at the SAME TIME, until we receive our glorified body, only THEN shall we be like Him.

Which is also why we Christians are only really allowed to say, "God, have mercy on me a sinner" and we Christians are NOT allowed to be like the Pharisee who said, "God, I THANK YOU THAT I AM NOT LIKE OTHER MEN, unjust..."

with love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Well Eden, I have been around you for several months now, and you haven't heard what has been said. So now you pin it down, and you are a skeptic.

quote:
While we are in this first Adamic body, we cannot escape sinning until we receive our glorified body, only THEN shall we like Him.

To say this you have to flatly deny a whole host of potent scriptures. Powerful ones! You are not defying me. You are defying scripture.

Now concerning the Pharisee, you completely miss the point there also! The Pharisee thought that he did what merited Him the right to boast. When God does it, you are not boasting just because you elaborate on it. Just because you can have it, doesn't mean that you did it.

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? The law of faith" Romans 3:23

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

Is it the Body that sins or is it what we will our bodies to do?

Our Old Man is our preconversion life, what we were before coming Christiansunder the unrestrained dominon of the flesh (sin nature)

The body of sin refers to the sinful nature within us. NOT to the human body.

Romans 6:12

Therfore do not let sin reign in your mortal body
that you should obey in its lusts.

We have a continual choice day after day whether to yeild ourselves to sin or to God.(Romans 6:13

Sin only reigns in us if we permit it. We must be born again, walking in the newness of life in Him.

We have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God (Romans 6:18)

We become slaves of rightousness.

I agree with MH on this one. The NT has a lot to say about sin.

some people think its the human body that sins. This was what the Gnostics taught.Its not so. God made the human body and saw that it was good(Gen)

Sin begins in the heart, in the mind. We should be letting this mind be in us , that of Christ Jesus.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Chapter 10, The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee:

Now how can a man be delivered from sin? Some theorize that since sin is the first cause we must annihilate it in order to attain victory; accordingly they advocate "the eradication of sin." Once the root of sin is pulled out, think these, we never shall sin again and are obviously sanctified. Others argue that we must subdue our body if we desire to overcome sin, for is it not our body, they ask, which practices sin? So there arises in Christendom a group of people who promote asceticism. They use many techniques to suppress themselves for they anticipate that once they overcome the demands of their bodies they shall be holy. None of these is God's way. Romans 6.6 is transparent as to His way. He neither eradicates the root of sin-within nor suppresses the body without. Rather, God deals with the old man in between.

GOD'S FACT

The Lord Jesus in going to the cross took with Him not only our sins but also our beings. Paul enunciates this fact by proclaiming "that our old man has been crucified with him." The verb "crucified" in the original is in the aorist tense, connoting that our old man was once and forever crucified with Him. As the cross of Christ is a fact accomplished, so our being crucified with Him is additionally an accomplished fact. Whoever questions the reality of the crucifixion of Christ? Why, then, should we doubt the reality of the crucifixion of our old man?

Many saints, upon hearing the truth of co-death, immediately assume that they ought to die, and so they try their best to crucify themselves. Either lack of God's revelation or lack of faith accounts for this attitude. They not only do this themselves; they teach others so to do as well. The results are too obvious: no power is theirs to be freed from sin and their old man they feel will not die.

This is a grievous misjudgment. The Bible never instructs us to crucify ourselves. Precisely the opposite are we told! We are taught that when Christ went to Calvary He took us there and had us crucified. We are not instructed to begin crucifying ourselves now; instead the Scriptures assure us that our old man was dealt with at the time Christ went to the cross. Romans 6.6 alone is sufficient to substantiate this. There is not the remotest idea conveyed of desiring to crucify ourselves, nor does the Word in the slightest sense imply that our crucifixion awaits realization. The verse in Romans 6 permits no room for doubt when it categorically pronounces that we were crucified with Christ, a fact already accomplished. This is truly the effect of the most precious phrase in the Bible-"in Christ." It is because we are in Him and are united with Him that we can say that when Christ went to the cross we went there. in Him, that when Christ was crucified we too were crucified in Him. What a wonderful reality that we are in Christ!

Mere mental assimilation of these truths cannot withstand temptation, however. The revelation of God is positively essential. The Spirit of God must reveal how we are in Christ and how we are united with Him in one. He must also show us distinctly how our old man was crucified with Christ for the simple reason that we are in Christ. This cannot be simply a mental comprehension; it must be a disclosure of the Holy Spirit. When a truth is unfolded by God it most naturally becomes a power in man, who then finds himself able to believe. Faith comes through revelation. Without the latter the former is impossible. This explains why many do not have faith, for though they mentally understand they do not have God's revelation. Therefore, brethren pray until God gives us revelation so that "knowing this" in our spirit we may truly confess "that our old man has been crucified with him.

Philippians 3:7-11
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Oh to know the power of Your risen life,
And to know You in Your sufferings;
To become like You in Your death, my Lord,
So with You to live and never die.

Knowing You, Jesus, knowing You
There is no greater thing.
You're my all, You're the best,
You're my joy, my righteousness,
And I love You Lord.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ucAzJhs-KgI

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

Exactly! We went there too. SO, we are not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies.

And how would one let sin reign in his/her mortal body?

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:
Chapter 10, The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee:

Mere mental assimilation of these truths cannot withstand temptation, however. The revelation of God is positively essential. The Spirit of God must reveal how we are in Christ and how we are united with Him in one. He must also show us distinctly how our old man was crucified with Christ for the simple reason that we are in Christ. This cannot be simply a mental comprehension; it must be a disclosure of the Holy Spirit. When a truth is unfolded by God it most naturally becomes a power in man, who then finds himself able to believe. Faith comes through revelation. Without the latter the former is impossible. This explains why many do not have faith, for though they mentally understand they do not have God's revelation. Therefore, brethren pray until God gives us revelation so that "knowing this" in our spirit we may truly confess "that our old man has been crucified with him.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
And how would one let sin reign in his/her mortal body?

O lol, just a reaction! [spiny]

I had thought you had said how NOT to! [updown]

Now for the response. [Wink]

Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ [Smile]

BUT, we CAN give in to the enemy quite easily by resisting the Grace of God in Christ Jesus!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.

Colossians 3 [Entire chapter]

Here's the first few verses to bring you into remembrance [Wink]

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In other words, if our gaze is earthbound, we WILL sin. But if we keep our eyes on Jesus sin will flee away! [Big Grin]

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ

Well, if you are right I don't know it yet. I am glad for you. But the way I see it, he wasn't saying that we cannot be alive to sin again. He is saying, "How can your conscience bear for you to continue in sin?" It is more of a reproval. It is a question addressing why they are still living in sin. Because Jesus is the power to live beyond it. And let me tell you each and every one, I am not aloof. I know what weakness is. I fully know. Fortunately, He has revealed to me something of great value, that helps me to skip over the lake like a rock thrown at skipping angle which bounces over the water. (I am giving place to Eden's advice here). There is a way to please Him, and not please ourselves. For, pleasing ourselves goes nowhere. It only makes us to feel condemned. It is no way to live, fulfilling our lusts, and expecting the indignation of God. And we don't have to.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Good post by Watchman Nee. Nevertheless it is in the semantics. Though the old man is dead in fact by the work of Jesus on the Cross, it is not our reality until by faith, we realize it. And it is all about faith. So, since we do not realize it until the outward man is broken (Watchman Nee) we do not benefit. Suffice it to be said that there is something in the words of Paul that most do not discover. And though you may not appreciate this (out there), please do.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Good post by Watchman Nee.Nevertheless it is in the semantics. Though the old man is dead in fact by the work of Jesus on the Cross, it is not our reality until by faith, we realize it. And it is all about faith.

It's God's reality, whether or not we 'realise' it.

quote:
Michael:
So, since we do not realize it until the outward man is broken (Watchman Nee) we do not benefit. Suffice it to be said that there is something in the words of Paul that most do not discover. And though you may not appreciate this (out there), please do.

We'll only ever come to know the Truth by Grace through faith.

Jesus is God's Provision. [Smile]

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

quote:
Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ
Well, if you are right I don't know it yet. I am glad for you.

I'm so glad the Holy Spirit witnessed to you what I was expressing with words!

PRAISE JESUS! [hyper]

For words honestly don't do justice to the Grace provided us!

With that same understanding, I exhort you in the Holy Spirit to read through Ephesians 1 [Big Grin]

"making mention of you in my prayers" Michael! [Prayer]

Romans 7:5-6
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison said

quote:
Well Eden, I have been around you for several months now, and you haven't heard what has been said. So now you pin it down, and you are a skeptic.

I'm not a skeptic, the LORD has been blessing my socks off lately.

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself also in the LORD: and He shall give you the desires of your heart.

Exodus 15:25
And Moses cried to the LORD; and the LORD showed him a tree, which, when he had thrown it into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them.

This tree which was thrown into the bitter waters was a type of Jesus, Who, when He was cast into the bitter world, made the water sweeter of whosoever will; if we are not becoming sweeter than we used to be, there is something wrong.

love, Eden
"Yea, I get another day!"

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, sister yahsway, u wrote

quote:
Therfore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey in its lusts.

We have a continual choice day after day whether to yield ourselves to sin or to God.(Romans 6:13)

Sin only reigns in us if we permit it.

Yes, I agree. But we should also acknowledge and state that no man will be able to totally 100% escape this sinful nature which we inherited by 3,000 years of practice from Adam and Eve, namely, soul rule.

We will always sin in some things (though we may have small and large victories) until we receive our glorified bodies.

For now, ONLY JESUS HAS A GLORIFIED BODY, and we still have SINFUL ADAM/EVE BODIES.

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit put into Miriam (Mary/Maria), so that Jesus DID NOT come up through the AdamEve line, Jesus BYPASSED the sinful genes from AdamEve to Miriam.

But we are FULL of AdamEve, from Adam to today and it has not yet ended. So, yahsway, my concern is that we state, "yes, we must pay attaention to sin and try with help of reading the Word of God and hearing from the Spirit of God to "improve" some of our behaviors".

But we must not imply, as often seems to happen, that we CAN STOP ALL SIN; that, I think, is not true, not until we receive our glorfiied body. We must thus also accept the fact that we will always sin to SOME EXTENT, but hopefully LESS THAN BEFORE with the help of God, especially now that we are inside the family camp of God.

with love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Dear sister Zeena, you said to yahsway

quote:
Now for the response (for how NOT to sin).

Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ

BUT, we CAN give in to the enemy quite easily by resisting the Grace of God in Christ Jesus!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.

But we can only resist something that we are listening to; it is a sadder fact that many Christians are hardly bothering to "listen to what the Holy Spirit says to their spirit of man"; they are yet ruling by their AdamEve soul, eventhough they accepted Christ.

So, to repeat what you said, Zeena[/quote]Now for the response (to how NOT to sin).

Romans 6:2
God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?

We cannot be alive to sin ever again, because we have been raised with Christ

BUT, we CAN give in to the enemy quite easily by resisting the Grace of God in Christ Jesus!

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19
Do not quench the Spirit.[/quote]This only works if someone is already listening to the Spirit of God. Most Christians are probably NOT EVEN listening to the Spirit of God YET! They are yet in soul-self rule over the body.

So, yes, even Christians who are ALREADY listening to the Spirit of God (having given back the rule over the body from the soull to the spirit of man), even that person who thus listens to his spirit, even he will resist what the Spirit of God said some of the time.

love, Eden

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

It is not our nature to sin any longer, but sin tries to take hold of us..

quote:
The Law of Liberty in the Spiritual Life, Chapter 1: Sin
By Evan Hopkins

Christ's death, which has separated the believer from the consequences of sin as a transgression, has also separated him from the authority of sin as a master - set him free.

The believer sees that Christ, by dying for him, has completely delivered him from the penalty of sin. So it is his privilege to see that because he is identified with Christ in that death, he is also delivered from sin as a ruling principle. Its power is broken. He is in that sense "free from sin" (Rom. vi. 18, 22).

The purpose of the Apostle, in this sixth chapter, is to show how completely the believer is identified with Christ when "He died unto sin." To enter fully into the meaning of that death is to see that Christ has emancipated us from any further dealings with our old master sin. The believer is privileged thus to take his place in Christ, who is now "alive unto God." From that standpoint he is henceforth to regard sin. He is now and forever free from the old service and the old rule. The Cross has terminated the connection once for all, and terminated it abruptly. It has effected a definite and complete rupture with the old master, sin.

"Such is the Divine secret of Christian sanctification, which distinguishes it profoundly from simple natural morality. The latter says to man, Become what you would be. The former says to the believer, Become what you are already (in Christ). It puts a positive fact at the foundation of moral effort, to which the believer can return and have recourse anew at every instant. And this is the reason why his labour is not lost in barren aspiration, and does not end in despair.

"The believer does not get disentangled from sin gradually; he breaks with it in Christ once for all. He is placed by a decisive act of will in the sphere of perfect holiness, and it is within it that the gradual renewing of the personal life goes forward. This second gospel paradox, sanctification by faith, rests on the first, justification by faith" (Professor Godet on Romans vi).

The Cross is the efficient cause of this deliverance. Freedom from sin's ruling power is the immediate privilege of every believer. It is the essential condition or starting point of true service, as well as of real progress. Such service and growth are as possible for the young convert as for the mature believer. Therefore freedom from sin's dominion is a blessing we may claim by faith, just as we accept pardon. We may claim it as that which Christ has purchased for us, obtained for our immediate acceptance. We may go forth as set free from sin, and as alive unto God in Jesus Christ our Lord. This is freedom from sin as a ruling principle.

It is possible to see in the death of Christ an all-sufficient atonement for sin, and yet not to see that in that death we have also the secret or source of personal purification of sin.

Sin is not merely a load that weighs us down, or an offence that has brought upon us penal consequences. It is an uncleanness that makes us unfit for God's presence. We may have rejoiced in the fact that the load is gone, that the guilt has been atoned for, and yet we may know but little of Christ's power to cleanse. Owing even to one single act of disobedience we may have been thrown out of communion. We have thus become conscious, not only of guilt, but of defilement.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

By God, Michael Harrison, I think you got it

quote:
Well, if you are right I don't know it yet. I am glad for you. But the way I see it, he wasn't saying that we cannot be alive to sin again. He is saying, "How can your conscience bear for you to continue in sin?" It is more of a reproval. It is a question addressing why they are still living in sin. Because Jesus is the power to live beyond it. And let me tell you each and every one, I am not aloof. I know what weakness is. I fully know. Fortunately, He has revealed to me something of great value, that helps me to skip over the lake like a rock thrown at skipping angle which bounces over the water. (I am giving place to Eden's advice here). There is a way to please Him, and not please ourselves.

love, Eden
"make me over"

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

Eden, I think its more like we have a sinful NATURE, not Body.

Our bodies can only act upon sin that our mind wills it to.

To await our glorified body is to await that which will never die.

Right now we age, have diseases, infirmites in our human bodies beyond some of our controls.

And a lot of people have sick bodies but that does not mean its because of some sin they commit.

My point being is that its not our human bodies that sin as if we dont have control over our bodies.

Paul says "But i disciple my body and bring it into subjection, lest when i have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

Sin entered the world thru Adams and Eves Disobediance, NOT because their Body was Bad, sinful.

God created the human body. And yes, it was to live forever until Adam and Eve disobeyed.

But now that we have Obeyed the gospel and belong to Yeshua, when He ransomes us then He will give us a body that will never die.

The Gnostics taught that the humand body was "bad, sinful" and encouraged men not to marry women for it was sinful to have sex ect...

They also taught that certain foods were not to be eaten which would corrupt the sinful body even further.

A lot of what the Catholic church teaches comes straight from these Gnostic teachings.

But Gods first commandment was for us to be fruitful and multiply.

And food is well recieved if we eat it with thanksgiving unto God.

The Mormons teach their women that their bodies are "bad" and sinful.

It is not our human bodies but our will(free will) as to what we will our bodies to do.

Sin starts as a thought. Acting upon it causes the body to sin. But we can bring our thoughts thru the Holy Spirit into subjection to the Spirits will and not ours.

I dont think our "bodies" are sinful but Our Nature.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Yahsway, thanks for participating. May your marriage be blessed. You also said, [quote]Eden, I think it's more like we have a sinful NATURE, not Body.[/b]Okay, but where is this sinful nature located?

On the one hand, the soul is the one who directs the body, so it must be the soul which is habituated and accustomed to operating the body in a sinful way after having lost access to the Spirit of God eversince Adam and Eve.

But Paul seems to say that there is a law of sin in his members too:

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Okay then I shall ask you, where are these members, which contain this law of sin,
located, yahsway? Are "my members" my soul, or "my body"?

love, Eden
"I thank God for another day"

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

I'm sorry but due to difficulty sitting at the computer too long from an injury, I skimmed through some posts so if I missed something or repeated, please forgive me.

However, sometimes I read what is being said and I'm like, "WHAT!" I feel as if sometimes people try to answer things biblically, which is good of course, but it can often complicate things. So, I'm going to attempt to put it in my own simple way. For me, I find picturing things easier to understand.

I can’t remember where I heard this, but I remember someone once saying that she remembered her mother or grandmother always had a lamp on the desk and an open bible. Any free time the woman had during her daily routine, she would go to the desk and read the bible and pray.

What I am reading and interpreting from the posts about the sin nature and I think we pretty much all agree on in our own ways of saying it is this:

1. Christ died for our sins so we are now dead to sin. I agree, but I also know that in reality, I still sin unfortunately.

2. I think we all agree that none of us are perfect. If we said we are sin free, the bible says we are liars.

3. There is a way to avoid sins in our daily lives and struggles.

So, how do we avoid sin. Well, when I was in bible school, I saw many people that chose to sin and you could see in their lives that they didn’t really have a heart that was truly seeking after God. It showed in their actions, their words, and their attitudes. Sometimes, even in their sinful ways.

There were others that were truly seeking to know more about the Word and God’s ways and it was so obvious. You could see a difference in their attitude and daily lives. However, due to homework, classes and daily church before classes, we were forced to be in God’s word all of the time. Because of that, we saw changes in our lives. Even those that weren’t as serious about God had made positive changes because of being in the Word so much.

Now, I’m done school and back to my daily routines of being a mom and house wife. I home schooled so most of my time was spent teaching school by day, correcting papers and planning the next day by night and house work and meals, ect. When I finally had free time, I just wanted to sit in front of the TV or something. I started noticing that I was becoming more frustrated, burned out, ect. So my point is this. Thought the years I have seen how the more time spent reading God’s word, praying and listening for God to speak to us, the less of our lustful desires were hindering us.

We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible. I certainly know how hard that can be at times, but my daughter has been gone for a month and I started spending my free time doing all sorts of cleaning and stuff because it feels good to actually clean something and have it stay that way for more than a few hours. ;-) I would also do many other things but I wasn’t taking time to read God’s word. I was only praying throughout the day. Prayer is good, but I am not completing all of the tasks that the Lord has put before me in order to flee from sin successfully. I think we have all done this, which is why we all still sin. I think it goes much further than just sin nature/righteous nature. You have heard the saying, “actions speak louder than words”. Well, we need to line our actions back up to a righteous level and seek God first and in ALL of our ways “acknowledge” HIM. The more time we spend seeking, the less we sin and the more Christ-like we become.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Carmela:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.

John 14:16-18
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Carmela wrote

quote:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.

John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you {have fruit}, except you abide in Me.

John 15:7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, THEN you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Mark 11:23
For verily I {Jesus} say to you, That whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be you removed and be you cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he SAYS shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he says.

And why shall he have "whatsoever he says[/b]"? Because if what he said came from the Spirit of God through the spirit of man, then he (the soul) shall have "whatsoever he says" because God will not say anything unless God also provided the means to do what God asked me to do.

So if I abide in Him, and He in me, only then can I bear fruit and have what I say. Because:

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you, I do not speak Myself: but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.

Carmela wrote

quote:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.

love, Eden

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Carmela wrote
quote:
We can use lots of big words and scriptures, but the point is that to avoid sin, we need to start placing ourselves as close to God as possible.
John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you {have fruit}, except you abide in Me.

John 15:7
If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, THEN you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

love, Eden

WooT WooT! [clap2]

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

[happyhappy]

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Gee, if only I realized I could have made that entire statement in just a short sentence. I'm a bit long winded at times. ;-) I forgot how to use the smilies since I've been away so long so I will use this type. lol

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

Some religons consider the body evil or inferior to the soul, but the Bible teaches that the body is Gods good gift to us (Gen1:31)

It is a necessary for a fully human existence(Gen 2:7)

Paul teaches that the body is often the "instrument" of sin (1 Cor 6:18) that the body must die as a penalty for sin (Romans 7:24)
AND that sin dishonors a persons body(Rom 1:24)

On the other hand, believers in Christ may "put to death the deeds of the body (Rom 8:13) and present their bodies as holy sacrifices that Please God.(Rom 12:1)

What are the works of the flesh? What did Yeshua say about adultry? He said if you even LOOK upon a woman with lust in your heart you have committed it (adultry)

To get a "glorified body" one that will not decay "from dust you were made and to dust you shall return" You first have to do something.

You must be Born-again.

What is "being made in the image and likeness of God" mean?

It refers to qualities as reason, personality and intellect, and to the capacity to relate, to hear, to see, and to speak.

You must be born-again!

Your "members" are the various parts of our bodies, representative of all aspects of our lives.

We have a continual choice, day after day whether to yeild ourselves to sin or to God.

If sin has destructive effects in our lives, then, of course we should "not let it reign in our bodies"
A person is a slave to that which he/she gives obediance to.

"Do not present your members as instruments of unrightousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of rightousness to God.

To walk according to the "flesh" is to follow the sinful desires of ones OLD life. You must be born-again!

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

I think you made a good point. We must be born again and we must choose to turn our backs on sin. Yet, I think it was Paul but can't remember right now, said he does what he doesn't want to do and doesn't do what he wants to do.

Staying sin free isn't always easy. It isn't possible to go through one day without some type of sin coming from us. If it were, we wouldn't need the blood or repentance.

Oh and just to clarify my earlier post, I do realize God is in me, but that happened once I became Born Again. I didn't have to work for that. I only have to work at staying close to the Lord and seeking Him daily in order to stay in a place where I end up hating my sin so much that I no longer want to walk in sin or choose to do things according to my own selfish desires.

Posted by apilgrim2 (Member # 7182) on :

That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is spirit is spirit.

Those who receive Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior also receive a new heart, also described as 'the new nature', also called 'the new man'.

Eph 1:13 "In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
Eph 1:14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

The old nature and the new nature remain in the saved believer, and exist side by side in a battle for control of the believer's thought/actions. Every true believer in Christ will experience the conflict of the old and new natures within him/herself.

Starve the old nature and see it weakened day by day; feed the new nature and see it strengthened day by day.

Upon the death of the believer the old nature (the old man) dies and returns to the dust from whence he came. The new nature (the new man) sleeps in Christ until resurrection.

Prayer is the breath of the new nature.

Praise the LORD!

apilgrim2

Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on :

Good post Carmela and apilgrim2.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

I was thinking about something earlier. This winter there was a boy at Pinecrest (bible school here) and he is like 5 or 6 years old. One day, out of the blue, at lunch he went around and asked a few students a profound question. So profound, that his grandmother knew that he could only have gotten this wisdom from God because he wasn't taught it. He asked, “do you hate your sins?” Some students ignored him and others just replied yes and went back to what they were doing. I wonder though, did these students “really” understand what this young boy was asking.

DO YOU HATE YOUR SINS? Do you hate your sins so much that they detest you? Do you hate them so much that you immediately stop and repent with a truly repentant heart?

I know that in my life I have made so many bad decisions that I thought were best because I wanted my own way. Then, early this winter, every time I started to pray all I could do was cry. I pray often but all I could do for about 2 months was cry and keep telling God how much I love Him. It wasn’t anything I was able to do in my flesh. I knew it was my spirit crying out to the Lord. I had made such a mess of things and now I’m living with the repercussions of them.

When that time of loving the Lord ended, I felt numb in a way. I couldn’t pray for about a week and I thought I was in a desert place. Now, I look back and I think I was in a place of shock almost. To me, prayer seemed so meaningless for a while. God changed me through that experience. After, I truly hated my sins. I would literally cry instantly when I started to contemplate sin. I learned what it meant to really hate my sin and it started because of one small boy that was asking a simple question for God. Do you hate your sins?

There are times when I still don’t spend as much time in the word as I should or I feel like I’m praying wrong or I just sin. But now, I hate my sin.

We need to allow God to change us. To be willing. When this happened to me, it wasn’t anything I did on my own or can recreate. I was at a place were I was so desperate for God, that He was able to change me.

So I ask once more, “DO YOU HATE YOUR SINS?” Let Him change you.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

James 4:5-7
Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The Spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
2. I think we all agree that none of us are perfect. If we said we are sin free, the bible says we are liars.

No carmela, we don't all agree. That is not Biblical. Jesus is our perfection, so we have no excuse. We are not perfect of ourselves. We can 'do' nothing to be perfect, but Jesus makes us perfect, by faith. Thankfully he is merciful however,because even with such wonderful provision, we seem to insist on ruining it. But if HE gives us His perfection, and we trample it, it is dismay upon dismay. And it is pretty easy to do.

But our perfection is by Him as we trust Him for it and we do not stip out of it. How do we step out of it? We step out by obeying our lusts. Regrettably, most people will never know what it is to 'step into' it. So they live consistantly in their lusts and justify it to make themselves feel better. You know what is stranger, they use the word of God to justify it!

And scripture does not say that we are not sin free. It says quite the opposite. Jesus died so that we could be sin free, even though that is not the experience people admit to. The reason is that they don't understand the operation of faith. End of file.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Jesus died so that we could be sin free

1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Jesus died as the propitiation for our sin.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

My number one beef is that no one reads scripture the way it is written. They do not get before Him as they read the word. What happens in that case is that the 'old man' misinterprets the meaning of the word. In other words, the carnal man (who is our old nature), distorts the meaning.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Reconcile this please! In the passage above he says, "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves." But something happens if we admit that we are sinners (which some don't). See the verse below.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from 'all' unrighteousness.

What then is he saying? He is not saying that we are stuck with sin. He is saying that we cannot deny that all have sinned and necessarily come short of the glory of God. Therefore to come nigh to the glory of God, admitting our condition and accepting His provision allows Him to "Cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Therefore, by His grace, the previous verse is no longer true (which is how that works. He forgives. HE restores. HE reconciles, which is the true mark of redemption. Otherwise he would not have said, "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have FELLOWSHIP one with another and the blood of Jesus CLEANSES us from 'all'/'all' sin." For if it were not so, we would have NO FELLOWSHIP, with each other. Because He cannot fellowship with sin. And fellowship with Him is now. Don't wait for it.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

So then, you're saying your sinless.. [Confused]

http://www.crosswaystolife.org/prep4revival.htm

Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Hebrews 9:12
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 10:1-10
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

In Christ, YOU ARE FREE from the authority of sin. The "old man" is now out of the picture: "knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should NO LONGER BE SLAVES of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin" (Rom 6:6). What liberating truth! (John 8:32).

1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Christ's sinless life qualifies Him as our advocate. "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison said

quote:
My number one beef is that no one reads scripture the way it is written. They do not get before Him as they read the word. What happens in that case is that the 'old man' misinterprets the meaning of the word. In other words, the carnal man (who is our old nature), distorts the meaning.

Whoa!! Your number one beef???

First of all, how do you even KNOW this; have you been to all our houses and seen how we live and what we do? And frankly, there is not a Christian alive who does not distort the meaning of Scriptures at one time or another to suit their current paradigm of a particular passage or of the Bible in its entirety.

My number one beef is that you even care what I do in my home and how I live my life before God; it is none of your business. If you want to share how you are doing inside your house and how you live and what you do, primarily as regards the Bible (I'm not interested in hearing about the non-Christian things you do), but unless you are a prophet who has "seen what we do by the Spirit", you have no business peeping into our houses or to imply that we should "live according to Michael Harrison" because "it is his number one beef" that people don't live like Michael Harrison thinks they should live.

Michael Harrison, if you spent more time minding your own business, instead of other people's business, it would be time well-spent. [Bible]

Michael Harrison said

quote:
My number one beef is that no one reads scripture the way it is written. They do not get before Him as they read the word. What happens in that case is that the 'old man' misinterprets the meaning of the word. In other words, the carnal man (who is our old nature), distorts the meaning.

Whoa!!

with love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Carmela wrote

quote:
We need to allow God to change us. To be willing. When this happened to me, it wasn’t anything I did on my own or can recreate. I was at a place were I was so desperate for God, that He was able to change me.

Set my spirit free, that I may worship You. LORD, have mercy on me a sinner. Create in me a clean heart.

Which of these did we do ourselves? None. We are so wound up with bondage that we cannot find our way. Only God can unwind us. So we need to ask, LORD, change me, because if I have to change myself "it ain't gonna happen".

love, Eden
"something beautiful"

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

Jesus I have no life, come and be my Life, Lord!

Thank you! [rapture]

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Michael there's only one problem. At 10:00 you confess your sins and at at 10:01 or sooner, you have already sinned again. It could be a thought, an act, or anger, turning our back on someone in need because we are busy or something, anything. Sometimes, we sin and may not be aware of it. Yes, our sins are covered by the blood. However, sometimes we are in sin and don't realize it. I think everyone has areas in their lives where we were wounded and we hold pain, resentment, unforgiveness, anger, whatever, and we don't even realize it yet. Why? Because God deals with us when we are ready and not one minute sooner. God isn't going to bring up something before He knows you are strong enough to handle it. We also have generational sins that may not have yet been repented for and those often affect us.

It isn't always black and white Michael. Sure, if a handsome man/woman comes our way and we sin as David did, we realize we have sinned becauase that's an obvious sin. However, even David had to go through a process before he was ready to repent and turn from his sin. He tried to cover it up, remember. So I wonder, how many sins have we committed, past or present, that we are still covering up and unready to deal with/ repent of. We all have them. How do I know? I know each time God brings me through another process of healing.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Tsk, tsk tsk! Carmela! I know that there was a sacrifice for the 'unknown' sin under the Old Covenant. And There is provision in the New thankfully, because I know what you are saying, however, you are missing something. If you sin that quickly, you are in bondage to it. If you (plural, as always, including everyone, even me) sin that quickly from moment to moment, why? You make it sound as though one is subject to it without remedy. So you are expressing your 'experience' rather than the 'word'. Amen.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

No Michael, I'm just admitting that I fall short sometimes. Some days more than others.

May I ask if you are married Michael? If so, does your wife believe the same as you do? If you are married, you know how easy it can be to get upset with your parner. The same is true if a person just lives with a roommate. How about that co-worker that just really seems to annoy you? Although we may be on our guard at all times, we still sin. Yes, we are saved under grace and our sin is covered with the blood, but it doesn't mean we are without sin all of the time. I know that I am forgiven. I know that the Lord loves me, even when I may not feel loveable some day, but I also know that I am not perfected yet. Covered by the blood yes, perfect, not even close. That day of perfection is coming, but if I say I am without sin, I lie. The bible wouldn't have put that that statement in if we weren't to use it to keep us humble. I truly believe that once I believe I am sin free, then I will more vulnerable to fall.

The bible does say we are to be perfect. It says Solomon didn't have a perfect heart like his father David, but I guess I'll have to study it more because it doesn't say sin free. So, tomorrow I'll try to look at the scriptures about perfection more and see what the Lord shows me. Then, I'll get back to you. However, we do all sin and fall short of the glory of God also. The bible says we are righteous with God, but it also says we are still sinners. It only takes a thought and no matter how close we are to God, we still fall short at times.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

I was just thinking, you want to prove perfection but you seem to be stating your opinions instead of showing us your point through scriptures. If you want to change someone's point of view, it would be much more helpful if you use scripture and show us what point you are making from a biblical stand point. Then, we can reflect more on the Word and see what the Lord shows us.

Thanks.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

I told you I would look into this more, so I did just that. I looked up perfect in the concordance and then I looked up the actual Greek meaning of the words. As you may/may not know, the English bible isn't written word for word from the Greek and Hebrew because not all Greek/Hebrew words can be translated exactly. Scholars often used words they felt fit in the best.

When I looked up perfect, I found that the word wasn't actually used in it's original context. See:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)

739 artios (ar'-tee-os);

from 737; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:

KJV-- perfect.

Here again Heb. 12:23

5048 teleioo (tel-i-o'-o);

from 5046; to complete, i.e. (literally) accomplish, or (figuratively) consummate (in character):

KJV-- consecrate, finish, fulfil, make) perfect.

In my Greek/English Interlinear Bible the actual word for word English interpretation for 2 Tim 3:17 is this;

The proficient (KJS says perfect)..... The Greek didn't use the word perfect at all. So, that isn't saying we are actually made perfect. It's saying we to be complete. The meaning of proficient is this;

: well advanced in an art, occupation, or branch of knowledge
— proficient noun
— pro·fi·cient·ly adverb
synonyms proficient, adept, skilled, skillful, expert mean having great knowledge and experience in a trade or profession. proficient implies a thorough competence derived from training and practice . adept implies special aptitude as well as proficiency . skilled stresses mastery of technique . skillful implies individual dexterity in execution or performance . expert implies extraordinary proficiency and often connotes knowledge as well as technical skill .

Even in the Old Testament, I looked up scriptures where God called men perfect.

1 Kings 8:61 perfect means this

8003 shalem (shaw-lame');

from 7999; complete (literally or figuratively); especially friendly:

KJV-- full, just, made ready, peaceable, perfect (-ed), quiet, Shalem [by mistake for a name], whole.

Gen. 17:1
8549 tamiym (taw-meem');

from 8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth:

KJV-- without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

It's the KJV that adds the word perfect, not the original Hebrew.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Carmela,
Its nice to meet you. Would you agree with me that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin"? It seems to me that "having sin" is inevitable in our humanness, but that "practicing sin" is more of a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will. I do believe that there is strong warning against willfull sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth of the price paid for our sin. What are your thoughts on this?

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Hello Daniel. It's nice to meet you also.

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin". We are born with a sin nature but when we deliberately sin, we are choosing to follow the wrong master. That's why the bible says we can't sit on the fence. Claiming to be a Christian yet choosing to live a sinful lifestyle just don't go hand in hand. When we truly love the Lord and choose to follow in his ways until we get to the point where we hate our sin, that is how we know which people are true Christians. We all fall short, just as David did, but when we repent of our sins and those sins really break our heart because we turned away for the Lord's ways, it shows in our actions. That is why David is one of my favorite men in the bible. He really loved the Lord and it showed in his actions.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

I agree. Keep the faith.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Carmela:
We are born with a sin nature

Hi Carmela, we are born 'again' with the Spirit of God, yes?

And our old nature was crucified with Him, yes?

As it now is we [who are born again and are being filled with the Spirit of God] no longer desire to sin, having been cleansed, yes?

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Yes Zeena, I agree with you but I do not agree that we can call ourselves perfect as I hear Michael saying. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think I could ever say I'm perfect lest I become arrogant and fall into sin. I feel that when I start considering myself to be perfect, then I may be more likely to let my spiritual guard down. Darn it, I'm so tired from not sleeping much last night that I can't think where the scripture is that says what I'm trying to say. I'll have to try again later.

I definitely choose not to sin deliberately.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hi Carmela...I agree with you.

Luke 18:9 - 14 (NLT)

Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:

quote:
Carmela:
We are born with a sin nature
Hi Carmela, we are born 'again' with the Spirit of God, yes?

The Bible says we are Born again OF the Spirit and Sealed until the day of redemption. Yes?

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote

quote:
Would you agree with me that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin"? It seems to me that "having sin" is inevitable in our humanness, but that "practicing sin" is more of a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will.

To me, these are mere semantics. The fact is that if someone has a historic habitual sin that he or she has "practised" for years, that person, even after they become born again, will most likely NOT be able to resist "doing that again"; they don't want to, but they just about "can't help themselves". Only God can really take it away.

IMO, ALL sin is really "a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will"; it was rebellion in the beginning with Adam and it still is rebellion today. Only, today the law of sin is so deeply embedded in our members that it may not look so much like an "intentful violation against God's will", but there is not a sin in the world which is NOT an intentful violation of God's will.

So, oneinchrist, please provide me with an example of "a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will" that, say, a bornagain Christian might commit? Thank you so much. Eden

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
The Bible says we are Born again OF the Spirit and Sealed until the day of redemption. Yes?

WildB is right. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but we continue to be sanctified throughout our lives.

John 3:5 - 6 (NLT)

Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.

Philippians 1:6 (NIV)

Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

God who began a good work of redemption in us will carry it on to completion throughout our lifetime and then finish it when we meet him face-to-face. God’s work for us began when Christ died on the cross in our place. His work in us began when we first believed. Now the Holy Spirit lives in us, enabling us to be more like Christ every day. God not only initiates our salvation, he guarantees its fulfillment (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:

quote:
Carmela:
We are born with a sin nature
Hi Carmela, we are born 'again' with the Spirit of God, yes?

The Bible says we are Born again OF the Spirit and Sealed until the day of redemption. Yes?

Yes WildB

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote
quote:
Would you agree with me that there is a difference between "having sin" and "practicing sin"? It seems to me that "having sin" is inevitable in our humanness, but that "practicing sin" is more of a willfull/ intentful violation against God's will.
To me, these are mere semantics. The fact is that if someone has a historic habitual sin that he or she has "practised" for years, that person, even after they become born again, will most likely NOT be able to resist "doing that again"; they don't want to, but they just about "can't help themselves". Only God can really take it away.

Which is why we are exhorted to confess our sins.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Wild B can you please expand more on your post? Thanks. I would just like to make sure I understand what you are saying since I'm learning how differently people interpret the scripture.

I agree Eden but the way I was taking oneinchrist's posts is that we have a sin nature within us but that is different from when we intentionally choose to sin. Sometimes we may be stuck in a certain way of thinking or acting and not even aware that our actions are sinful until God reveals it to us. We go through a process throughout out lives so we have sin in us and God changes us a little at a time.

Once God showed me that I was seeing the world though scarred eyes because of my abuse. The woundedness of my past kept me from seeing as clearly and I had to allow God to bring me through a healing process. I couldn't believe how differently things looked after and yet I didn't even know my vision was obstructed. The same is sometimes true for sin. We don't realize we are sinning until it's revealed. Does that make sense?

For some reason I am not saying what I mean but you did a pretty good job explaining Eden.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

quote:
Once God showed me that I was seeing the world though scarred eyes because of my abuse. The woundedness of my past kept me from seeing as clearly and I had to allow God to bring me through a healing process. I couldn't believe how differently things looked after and yet I didn't even know my vision was obstructed. The same is sometimes true for sin. We don't realize we are sinning until it's revealed. Does that make sense?

Carmela,

I know exactly what you mean.

Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on :

[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
[5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Interpretation is of the Spirit application is individual.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Carmela!

I do know that the most trying ones to be around can be the most immediate members of one's own family. In fact, I have to confess that they can cut through one's victory like a knife, because they have this perception of ownership, and can be very trying as a result. Usually you are just 'property' to them, and they take advantage by making unconscience assumptions, without any respect or recognition whatsoever for the 'object' that is more of less perceived as theirs. I do sympathize with ya, and praise the Lord for whatever quickening He will give to you. I know it isn't easy.

Now, on the word 'perfect', never minding the lofty lexical linguistic lecture, some people like to 'rationalize' the word 'perfect'. (That means they can't understand it and so they make it fit what they can understand.) For example, where scripture says, "Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect," these like to substitute the word, mature.

Let's read it that way, "Be ye mature as your heavenly Father is mature." ??? How mature is God our Father? It just doesn't ring true, does it? For God is not mature, He is 'perfect'. Mature is a carnal concept which works in this world only. And since He is our life, then we are expected to be perfect, by His life. Having said that, I am going to leave it there and go to:

Perhaps you are 'not trusting Jesus'. You are perhaps having very little faith in Jesus! Why do I say that? It is not to be insulting. But you said that:

quote:
Michael there's only one problem. At 10:00 you confess your sins and at at 10:01 or sooner, you have already sinned again. It could be a thought, an act, or anger, turning our back on someone in need because we are busy or something, anything. Sometimes, we sin and may not be aware of it.

Well, based on this I would have to ask if you are perhaps instead trusting yourself? And as we can see by the timetable that you personally laid out, we can see just how long faith in ones own self lasts. Maybe a minute. Huh?

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

heh

But the Faith OF God is Eternal

Isn't that The Faith we've recieved in Christ?

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
What?

"lexical linguistic lecture"

you mean talking turkey?

See post #2 on this very thread

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena:

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
What?

"lexical linguistic lecture"

you mean talking turkey?
See post #2 on this very thread
don't need to . Its the baseball fans that are at a lose.

Ohhh hehe

Yes indeed, for in placing your faith in YOURSELF, you have to take it out of Christ..

Which one of us can do anything that God Himself has not ordained?
Is there anyone here who can add a measure of faith to himself?

Matthew 6:27
Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

No, it is God who gives a measure of faith to every man! And for us to sit here harping on someone becuase of thier lack of faith is to call God Himself into judgement!!!

Romans 11:30-
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Where, and upon whom we place the measure of faith God has given to us is in God's hands. He both softens and hardens the hearts of men according to His OWN Character.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Stop acting Like MH .

1 Corinthians 9:16-23
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Zeena,

quote:
See post #2 on this very thread

This is very confusing. WildB answered Michael when he said "lexical linguistic lecture", but you responded to WildB as if he were answering you.

quote:
Ohhh hehe

Yes indeed, for in placing your faith in YOURSELF, you have to take it out of Christ..

The 'baseball fans' are the visitors to the Christian BBS, and we try to keep them in mind when we post things. It has nothing to do with "placing faith in YOURSELF" - it's just being considerate to the audience.

Yes, very confusing.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Zeena,

quote:
See post #2 on this very thread
This is very confusing. WildB answered Michael when he said "lexical linguistic lecture", but you responded to WildB as if he were answering you.

He made no indication otherwise..

quote:
Ohhh hehe

Yes indeed, for in placing your faith in YOURSELF, you have to take it out of Christ..

quote:
The 'baseball fans' are the visitors to the Christian BBS, and we try to keep them in mind when we post things. It has nothing to do with "placing faith in YOURSELF" - it's just being considerate to the audience.

Yes, very confusing.

So then, I'll delete the posts?

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Zeena,
Your recent posts are examples of the problem that I have been trying to correct with my recent postings on the topic of "Sound Teaching".

You cite three different verses of Scripture for some reason in two of your posts, but you don't make a clear statement of your point or the case that you are seeking to make. Many posts would be much better and much clearer if the person would just state his or her point in clear English. Then he or she might be able to support it with a quotation from Scripture, as long as the context of the passage had a direct connection to his or her point.

The point of your above posts is unclear, and the meaning and application of your cited verses of Scripture is lost. I would encourage you and a lot of us to stop "throwing" a lot of Scriptures at each other in our postings. As I've said before, it is not biblical, and it isn't helpful.

Your short slogan, "Are ya dead yet?!?", at the end of your messages doesn't help. It is somewhat provocative and judgmental, IMHO.

You seem willing to learn. I hope that these observations and further suggestions are helpful.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Zeena,
Your recent posts are examples of the problem that I have been trying to correct with my recent postings on the topic of "Sound Teaching".

You cite three different verses of Scripture for some reason in two of your posts, but you don't make a clear statement of your point or the case that you are seeking to make. Many posts would be much better and much clearer if the person would just state his or her point in clear English. Then he or she might be able to support it with a quotation from Scripture, as long as the context of the passage had a direct connection to his or her point.

Ok, [hopefully] it is 'clearer' now?

quote:
The point of your above posts is unclear, and the meaning and application of your cited verses of Scripture is lost. I would encourage you and a lot of us to stop "throwing" a lot of Scriptures at each other in our postings. As I've said before, it is not biblical, and it isn't helpful.

Hopefully it's not lost on people now. The quoting of Scripture only [I thought] was making my 'point' for me. But seeing as it was 'unclear' I've added more a few 'sayings' to hopefully make it 'clear'.

Please tell me what you think?

quote:
Your short slogan, "Are ya dead yet?!?", at the end of your messages doesn't help. It is somewhat provocative and judgmental, IMHO.

I changed it to "Romans 6:3
Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?"

Seeing as this most closely reflects my 'point'.

quote:
You seem willing to learn. I hope that these observations and further suggestions are helpful.

As long as I don't feel compelled to write anything into the text of Scripture, I'm happy

Have a great day at church!

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison said to Carmela

quote:
I do know that the most trying ones to be around can be the most immediate members of one's own family. In fact, I have to confess that they can cut through one's victory like a knife, because they have this perception of ownership, and can be very trying as a result. Usually you are just 'property' to them, and they take advantage by making unconscience assumptions, without any respect or recognition whatsoever for the 'object' that is more of less perceived as theirs.

In psychology, what Michael Harrison is saying in this quote is called "projection".

Eden

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Zeena,
You ask me:

quote:
Ok, [hopefully] it is 'clearer' now?

No it isn't. You state that you've added more to your comments, but your additions are not helpful.

Please state your case with WildB and with me in a brief personal articulate statement so that we can understand your point of view regarding these matters of belief in which we are seeking to share our insights and opinions. Posting more Scripture verses probably isn't going to help any of us.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Zeena,
You ask me:
quote:
Ok, [hopefully] it is 'clearer' now?
No it isn't. You state that you've added more to your comments, but your additions are not helpful.

How so?

Have I not pointed to relevant Scripture which says that faith, in itself, is the gift of God in Christ Jesus?

quote:
Please state your case with WildB and with me in a brief personal articulate statement so that we can understand your point of view regarding these matters of belief in which we are seeking to share our insights and opinions. Posting more Scripture verses probably isn't going to help any of us.

How shall we hear then, if not of God?

--------------------
Hopefully this will make things clearer..

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison, the OP [Original post/poster]:
There are two kinds of believers: self righteous believers, and HIS righteousness believers. Is the self-righteous believer really a believer?

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena in response to Michael's OP:
You willing to recieve your faith "OF" God then?

Romans 3: 22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference......

Galatians 2: 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith OF the Son of God -- who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

Philippians 3: 9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the Law -- but that which is through the faith OF Christ -- the righteousness which is of God -- by faith.

Galatians 3: 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by the faith OF Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Romans 3: 3 (KJV) For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faith OF God without effect?

Philippians 1: 27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith OF the gospel.

Revelations 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God -- and the faith OF Jesus.

Romans 3: 26 (Rheims New Testament) Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of His justice in this time, that He Himself may be just; and the justifier of him who is of the faith OF Jesus Christ.

Romans 3: 22 (Rheims New Testament) Even the justice of God, by the faith OF Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe IN Him -- for there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and do need the glory of God.

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison in response to Carmela's post:
Perhaps you are 'not trusting Jesus'. You are perhaps having very little faith in Jesus! Why do I say that? It is not to be insulting. But you said that:

quote:
Carmela wrote:
Michael there's only one problem. At 10:00 you confess your sins and at at 10:01 or sooner, you have already sinned again. It could be a thought, an act, or anger, turning our back on someone in need because we are busy or something, anything. Sometimes, we sin and may not be aware of it.
Michael wrote:
Well, based on this I would have to ask if you are perhaps instead trusting yourself? And as we can see by the timetable that you personally laid out, we can see just how long faith in ones own self lasts. Maybe a minute. Huh?

quote:
Originally posted by Zeena in response to the bashing of Carmela's faith:
heh

But the Faith OF God is Eternal

Isn't that The Faith we've recieved in Christ?

It seems to me to be pretty straightforward.. This entire thread is devoted to the deception that there are 'Two believers', as it is aptly named. Meanwhile we are told by God that our old nature has been crucified with Christ!

Sanctification is now no longer dependant upon me, but the work of God in and through me as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life.

It is Jesus we've recieved, and ALL of Him at that. We are complete in Him who is our head, and have all faith abound to us by the Grace of God, through the faith that is in Him. (2 Corinthians 9:8)

Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

And here, in the above verse of Scripture, I quote a good promise that God alone is able to perform, a promise given us in Christ Jesus.

For both my edification, and yours

Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on :

Zeena,
You have quoted a lot more verses of Scripture and added some more comentary. Here is a quotation from your statement that raises a basic question with me.

quote:
Sanctification is now no longer dependant upon me, but the work of God in and through me as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life.

With my understanding of the English language, this phrase as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life means that the subject (the process of Sanctification) is somewhat dependent up "me", the object of the action.

One of my basic points of difference with Michael Harrison is that he seems to remove all personal action (work) of "me" from God's work of "santification" in "me". I think that several of us in this Forum have this same problem with Michael Harrison's apparent beliefs regarding salvation and santification. I have the same problem with you, if you share his belief.

This is a brief response to your post, but I think that is best to keep such posts brief, so I'm focusing on only the above point.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Zeena,
You have quoted a lot more verses of Scripture and added some more comentary. Here is a quotation from your statement that raises a basic question with me.

I quoted ONE more verse of Scripture, didn't I?

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

quote:
Bob:
quote:
Zeena:
Sanctification is now no longer dependant upon me, but the work of God in and through me as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life.
With my understanding of the English language, this phrase as I yeild to Him for His Holy Life means that the subject (the process of Sanctification) is somewhat dependent up "me", the object of the action.

I died, was buried, and was raised to newness of life in Christ Jesus.

It is His Life I've recieved, yes, the Eternal Life of God! But I too [the new me] am present, and made His witness.

It's Him who now works in me, it is His Life!

To say that "I" work is to take glory for myself when there is none to be had.. "I" rely on Jesus to do His Work in and through me.
All Glory to the Son of God!
He both saved me, and is become my Righteousness of God. He's my Life and my Salvation!

Every word in the above is Scriptural truth. But can only be revealed by the inwelling Holy Spirit.
But now that I have recieved Him [the initial act of faith on MY part which placed me in Him [yet, by God's Grace alone, wherwith I have nothing with which to boast, except Him!]], He is become the Righteousness of God which believes His Father in and through me.

My soul is still active, mind you!
Actively trusting, resting and abiding in His Provision, wherewith He bestowed upon me the Person of Jesus!

It's ALL Jesus, or it's nothing.

quote:
One of my basic points of difference with Michael Harrison is that he seems to remove all personal action (work) of "me" from God's work of "santification" in "me". I think that several of us in this Forum have this same problem with Michael Harrison's apparent beliefs regarding salvation and santification. I have the same problem with you, if you share his belief.

I actively cooperate with Divine Grace.
I labour with the Grace of God and I would gladly be spent for your soul, yet not "I", but the Grace of God which is with me.

I willingly chose to forgo myself and put myself in subjection to His Holy Spirit so that His Life is clearly seen.

quote:
This is a brief response to your post, but I think that is best to keep such posts brief, so I'm focusing on only the above point.

And, I'll have you note, not one verse of Scripture! haha!

Though, I stand at the ready to post them

For my delight [in Christ], is in the Word of God given us in Scripture

OK, lol, just ONE, ok?
I just CAN'T contain The Word!

2 Corinthians 10:17
"Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

In the process of sanctification, I do have to do something, namely, I have to read the Word of God and I have to listen to my spirit of man. These are my 2 obligations, and God will do His part, from the inside, by way of the Spirit of God instructing/counseling my spirit and God will do His part, from the outside, by the words of the Word of God.

John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in Me.

So in sanctification I have to do my part.

love, Eden

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Michael the original translation of the bible was the actual text so as I see it, it's you that is changing things. (I say this lovingly, not rudely even though it may come across that way in written form)

I guess if you think you are perfect though, then no one here can do anything to help you, teach you, guide you or anything else because you are the only person in this forum or even the wrold, that I know, who thinks he is equal to Jesus since the bible clearly tells us that only Jesus is and was perfect when he walked on this earth.

The one thing I love about this forum is that I can learn from others, I get challenged by others and I meet new people (sort of). I sure am glad that I am not under any false assumption that I'm perfect or I wouldn't have any other reason to be here since I have a desire to learn. I don't get angry at people and I don't get offended if anyone disagrees with me, so it's a win/win situation for me here. I take the nuggets that some people place before me and I ignore the things that don't bear witness to me.

I think you took my example of sinning so quickly as if I'm personally saying I'm that weak. Oh how you underestimate me.

I don't think I'm perfect but I'm a much stronger woman than you seem to think. I may be able to stay sin free for one minute. I don't know about 2 or 3

or how long it will be before my tongue, thoughts or actions escape me briefly and sin enters in. I refuse to stay in that sin longer than a moment though and that's what sets me apart from a non-obedient Christian that is choosing to sin and look the other way as if the Lord isn't seeing what they are involved in.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Carmela wrote

quote:
Michael the original translation of the bible was the actual text so as I see it...

Carmela, only the original manuscripts of the writers of the New Testament are the actual texts, and ALL the translations, yes and even the COPIES, are all prone to "scribal error" and are thus no longer "perfect".

We probably do not have the ORIGINAL writing of the first writers of the New Testament, so at this point I say that the Bible is an ERRANT Bible (meaning, now it has mistakes in the form of scribal errors and copyists errors and translators errors).

But the Bible IS INFALLIBLE, meaning that WAHT IT SAYS in the Bible SURELY WILL COME TO PASS.

I love my INFALLIBLE Bible. I'm relying on the INFALLIBLE Bible and not on the INERRANT Bible, and I believe that the first writings of the Bible were INERRANT. Anyone agree with this?

love, Eden

Posted by Carol Swenson (Member # 6929) on :

Hi Eden

Just speaking from my heart here, I believe that God has protected His Word through the centuries so we will learn what He wants us to learn as the Holy Spirit leads us.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Carol Swenson wrote

quote:
Just speaking from my heart here, I believe that God has protected His Word through the centuries so we will learn what He wants us to learn as the Holy Spirit leads us.

It amazes me how through the dangerous centuries God has protected His word. It's interesting that God waited until the 16th century of our time until either MAN invented the printing press or God waited until the 16th century to let man invent the printing press.

After the printing press, the Bible was "out".

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Someone recently pointed out that the numbering and chapter creating in the Bible was not in the original text. It came later. Recently however there was an e-mail floating around that highlighted exciting features which were evident in the chapter and verse enumeration of the scriptures. I fully enjoyed these discoveries because they clearly indicate that God has the oversight, always. (Lo, I am with you even to the ends of the earth.) I will go so far to say that the numbering was not anymore without inspiration, whether the scribes who initiated it realized it or not. For God IS. And it is impossible for some of the features brought out by the enumeration, not to be of design. At the very least, they reveal a bit of it.

But to give example, we think of God as though He inspired the writers to write, then He went away to do something else maybe. Yea? Well, people who read the original epistles probably sat around saying that they were just something that some ol guy named Paul, penned out. They weren't the 'originals'.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Eden,
I was gone a while again. Sorry I didnt notice your response to my post a little sooner.

I do believe that 1John makes a distinction that I was trying to express in regards to sin. In one passage he states that if we say that we have no sin that we call God a liar......but in another passage he states that a man that is born from above does not sin. How do we make sense of that?

What is John trying to tell us? In my best heart attempt to understand John this is what I come up with................

That we all have sin (born-again or not), but that born-again believers do not commit willfull/intentful/premeditated sin as a way of life.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hello, oneinchrist, you wrote

quote:
I do believe that 1John makes a distinction that I was trying to express in regards to sin. In one passage he states that if we say that we have no sin that we call God a liar......but in another passage he states that a man that is born from above does not sin. How do we make sense of that?

What is John trying to tell us? In my best heart attempt to understand John this is what I come up with................

That we all have sin (born-again or not), but that born-again believers do not commit willfull/intentful/premeditated sin as a way of life.

RE the man who is born from above does not sin...I think that can mean one of two things:

(1) when John is speaking of the bornagain man not sinning, John may have had the glorified-body, resurrected man in mind when John said the man who is born from above does not sin, and certainly he would not sin again; or

(2) whatever a man hears from his spirit of man directly from God can NEVER be sin because God does not sin. Therefore all that is bornagain in a man is NOT sin, but that which is flesh can and does sin.

Lastly, I would repeat that there is NO such thing as non-intentional, non-willful sin; at some point it all was intentional and willful but once it became a "habit" it no longer "appeared" to be "willful" and "intentional" but it all still is.

love, Eden

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Hi Eden,
I cannot agree that all sin is willfull sin. If I have knowledge of Gods will in a circumstance in my life and I decide that I am going to go against it, I willfully sin......but, on the other hand if I do not have the knowledge of or am ignorant of Gods will in a given circumstance I cannot willfully sin against God then, but nevertheless I sin. In the book of Hebrews we are warned against willfull sin after having come to the knowledge of the truth.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, oneinchrist, will you do a favor and post this verse (again) that you mentioned:

quote:
In the book of Hebrews we are warned against willfull sin after having come to the knowledge of the truth.

Thank you.

But let me ask you...when you know the Word of God and you go about along in your daily life, and you are confronted with a particular item that you want to do, do you really stand there in public having a "debate with yourself", lasting perhaps a few minutes while your wife waits impatiently..."honey, what are you doing!?", or is it not more truthful that you end up doing what you really want to do and you practically, have no such debate?

And if you were to have such a debate, can you please describe for me the last time you had such a debate with yourself and what it was about and who won?

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

love, Eden

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

Good morning Eden,
Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a fearful looking for judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Eden, I am not sure what you are trying to prove. I have never said that I do not sin. But I do not think that it is good for either of us to develop a passive attitude towards sin either. That is when I believe that we lean towards danger.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

Eden,

Can you explain why you are always defending sin and wanting to see just how much sin you can get away with.

Do you not know that sin is what caused Christ to be placed on the cross?

Do you enjoy sinning so much that you don't care that sin placed Him there?

Anyone that actually knows Jesus Christ does not want to willfully sin.

As for your debate scenario, if one knows Christ there is no need to debate. If one is save and knows Jesus Christ they don't debate if they are going to intentionally sin, knowing they are placing it on Jesus Christ. If you know Him you will not because you love Him. If you do then you have not come to know Him yet and need to seek Him.

May God open your eyes and let you see that we are to try our best to live as God wants us to.

We are not suppost to plan on how much sin we can get away with.

There is no debate, when you knowingly start to do something sinful. - > DON'T

It is easy if you actaully know and love Jesus Christ and are not living for self and putting self as number one. So if this is where you are you need to ask the Lord Jesus Christ to help you get to know Him.

1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

The bible makes this very clear and very simple so trying to explain away deliberate intentional sin is not going to cut it.

.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hello, KnowHim, you wrote

quote:
Eden, can you explain why you are always defending sin and wanting to see just how much sin you can get away with.

This is not a correct interpretation of what I said, or meant to say. I am not at all interested in sinning; to the contrary, now that I have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help me, I expect and trust that I will sin LESS than I did when I was NOT saved.

But for me it is a matter of trust and faith in God that, when I go WITH God, I will sin less than I did before.

But at the same time I know that, as Paul said, there is a sin principle in my members, so that in this life, we can mostly only serve God with our mind, but our members can still sin:

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Or, perhaps I ought to ask what YOU think the above scripture means?

To me it means that in this first Adamic life that I now have, I can serve God with my mind, but my body may still go its own way?
I'm not defending sin by saying that my body still goes its own way, but at the same time I'm saying that's what Paul himself said.

But my main point is that anyone who now has the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help him, that person will sin less than they did before. That is just common sense to me.

I'm not advocating a "loose cannon" attitude toward sin, but rather a "trust" attitude that God will help me, to the extent that we can be helped in this life before we are glorified.

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
I do believe that 1John makes a distinction that I was trying to express in regards to sin. In one passage he states that if we say that we have no sin that we call God a liar......but in another passage he states that a man that is born from above does not sin. How do we make sense of that?

What is John trying to tell us? In my best heart attempt to understand John this is what I come up with................

That we all have sin (born-again or not), but that born-again believers do not commit willfull/intentful/premeditated sin as a way of life.

I know it seems that I harass you oneinchrist. I don't mean to.

FWIW! If you don't mind, let me say:

Sin is a hard to handle subject. That said, we all have sin. I noticed you said that, and I agree that scripture says so. The point that I would make about those verses is that what it means that we all have sin, is, apart from Christ we do. At any point in time, if we diverge from Christ, we have sin because we are not trusting Him to deliver us. It is an in or out thing.

The reason I say it this way, is that if we are properly trusting Christ, we are 'delivered' from sin, and delivered from sinning. That is what we are seeking for, 'Properly trusting Christ'. In scriptural terms, that means, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these will be added on." There is a mode of properly trusting Christ, which is why He said to Abraham that he believed, and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

But in that we are born from above does not mean that we are 'experiencing' deliverance from sin. We can be born from above, and be flat full of it. That is because we don't know how to overcome. And we think that we overcome by trying. Therefore, we can't, plain and simple. Because trying will only fail. Hence we have the chapter in Romans saying:

Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for 'to will' is present with me; but 'how to perform that which is good' I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

This is what it means about 'trying' to keep the law. Because trying to keep the law, is trying to overcome sin. (See verse 18) But we don't overcome it by trying, but rather by faith. And one will find that at every point in the epistles, if they are looking.

But here is the reason I talk about 'having' vs. 'doing'. All sin comes from trying to have that which HE has not given us (or so it seems, He hasn't). But the point of faith is that HE has given us everything that we need. That means that we are having. Therefore, if we are having, we need not transgress HIm by 'trying' to have. HE fills us. He fulfills us. When we believe this, and we begin to walk in it, we realize that we do not have to 'lust' after anything, for HE is our provider.

Of course, this means we have to surrender. We have to trust in His provision, according to His will. Then we can realize that all our need is met:

Php 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

This includes the grace to give up that which HE does not desire for us. That word 'all' is the biggest three letter word there is. Huge! And here is where our rejoicing is! He is to us what we need. And if we turn from the 'beggarly elements' to discover who He is to us, we experience deliverance from sin as per:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin does not, under the circumstance of faith, have dominion over us. It cannot compel us. It cannot make us cooperate. We do not have to obey it!

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

This does not mean we are not tempted. We are in a sluice of temptation, often fast and furious and heavy. It is the compromising with it which we are spared from. This is because, since we are not under law, we are under grace, which 'giveth' us what we need whatever that is.

Posted by Zeena (Member # 7223) on :

Rom 6:16~
to whom ye yield yourselves..

Romans 6:19
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Posted by KnowHim (Member # 1) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Hello, KnowHim, you wrote
quote:
Eden, can you explain why you are always defending sin and wanting to see just how much sin you can get away with.
This is not a correct interpretation of what I said, or meant to say. I am not at all interested in sinning; to the contrary, now that I have the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help me, I expect and trust that I will sin LESS than I did when I was NOT saved.

But for me it is a matter of trust and faith in God that, when I go WITH God, I will sin less than I did before.

But at the same time I know that, as Paul said, there is a sin principle in my members, so that in this life, we can mostly only serve God with our mind, but our members can still sin:

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Or, perhaps I ought to ask what YOU think the above scripture means?

To me it means that in this first Adamic life that I now have, I can serve God with my mind, but my body may still go its own way?
I'm not defending sin by saying that my body still goes its own way, but at the same time I'm saying that's what Paul himself said.

But my main point is that anyone who now has the Word of God and the Holy Spirit to help him, that person will sin less than they did before. That is just common sense to me.

I'm not advocating a "loose cannon" attitude toward sin, but rather a "trust" attitude that God will help me, to the extent that we can be helped in this life before we are glorified.

love, Eden

I agree. God will help.

>> Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

>> Or, perhaps I ought to ask what YOU think the above scripture means?

It means that we are to serve God and not willingly sin. But we know that we all are going to die because of sin. It is what kills the body and 100% of all die sooner or later. If a drunk driver don't kill you or something else then old age will. It is sin that does us in.

.

Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on :

One reason that I believe it so very important to understand the meaning of repentance is because it has to do with the attitude that we have towards sin. In light of the gospel message,in repentance, we should have a changed attitude towards God and towards sin. God has given us reason to repent and change our minds about sin..... the hope in a resurrected life.

When temptation comes along, I do not necessarily believe that a dose of the Holy Spirit will suddenly fall on me to cause me to resist, but I believe it quite plausible that God will look upon me in my trial and see if I choose to resist because of the Hope He has given me. In many ways, I believe that our help is our hope. If I continue to give into temptations I do believe that I can harden my heart and fall away from the faith.

With love in Christ, Daniel

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, oneinchrist, you wrote

quote:
One reason that I believe it so very important to understand the meaning of repentance...

I think there are 2 repentances.

The first repentance is becoming willing to cease from operating our bodies from the soul level and becoming willing to allow the spirit of man to operate the soul and the body again, as it was with Adam and Eve before they sinned.

That first repentance causes us to be saved (provided I continually rely on that first repentance), and then the second repentance is after being saved, in which I am willing to acknowledge that I can and do still sin and I am willing to confess it as sin to the Lord on an ongoing basis.

With the help of God I will sin less than before I was saved, but both of these repentances are needed, plus the regular reading of the Word of God, and of course now also listening to the spirit of man, for a wholesome and fruitful and abundant relationship with God.

But being willing to sin less, with the help of God's methods, is part of the second repentance, not of the first repentance.

It seems to me that the first repenantance is ceasing from my own works, acknowledging the work that the Lord Jesus did in my behalf, and now God is allowed to counsel my spirit again.

The second repentance comes after salvation and deals more with continual confession, yes, I have sinned, Lord.

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Yes, Michael Harrison, I agree with what you wrote here:

quote:
Sin is a hard to handle subject. That said, we all have sin. I noticed you said that, and I agree that scripture says so. The point that I would make about those verses is that what it means that we all have sin, is, apart from Christ we do. At any point in time, if we diverge from Christ, we have sin because we are not trusting Him to deliver us. It is an in or out thing.

The reason I say it this way, is that if we are properly trusting Christ, we are 'delivered' from sin, and delivered from sinning. That is what we are seeking for, 'Properly trusting Christ'. In scriptural terms, that means, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these will be added on."

When we are listening to God thru His Spirit and His Word, we will not sin, because God does not give sin messages, God only gives truth messages.

But when we, during the course of the day, again take up soul rule or flesh rule, instead of spirit rule, then we sin. Probably ALL soul rule or flesh rule is automatically sin.

love, Eden

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Hi Michael. Now I have a better understanding of what you have been saying from your last post. I do agree with you, but I am still confused about what you are saying when you say you are perfected. I think you had said you are perfect, right? I would love to think I'm perfect, but I know that there are times when I make a decision hastily and I don't take the time to pray first. Then, I am more apt to make the wrong decision, outside of God's will. It may or may not lead to sin, but it's still a decision outside of God's will.

I know right from wrong so I do try to avoid sin. I know how selfish my flesh can be so I try to seek the Lord always, but I still haven't reach perfection. I think that's where I seem to be losing what you're trying to say. I do want to understand where you are coming from though. Sorry I am bringing up old posts again but pain kept me from the computer for a few days.

Oneinchrist, I totally agree with you posts. I look forward to reading more of your posts and learning from you.

Eden, although I see what you are saying, It seems to me that in a way you are basically saying what oneinchrist did only adding 2 repentance scenarios as far as I can tell. I don't remember the bible talking about 2 different types of repentance but I would like to read what you are referring to. Could you please show some scriptures so I can do more research.
Thanks.

Carmela

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Carmela! Anyone who knows me will be quick as a kneejerk to point out that I am not perfect. And never should one be oblivious to such criticism about them, else their condition might become really questionable (See 1Pet2:20), and there is possibly some truth in the critique! Having said that, Jesus is perfect, and they found fault with Him, to the extent that they even killed Him. ??? Yes! So don't let the accuser of the brethren deceive you. You are not created (from above) to abide in failure waiting for a blessed day. That day is here.

Jesus made it easy for us. He is not only God, He is our big brother; and by His obedience, He set the example that we can also realize. But in that HE made it easy to, He says so in these verses:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Who do you know that claims His name, who is not struggling? Is that not contrary to these very very clear verses? So, do you not wonder, why did He say that if it were not going to be apparent in anyone? Do you know anybody in whom it is apparent? Here is something else that Jesus said:

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Now! You have to take into consideration who is speaking. And you have to take into consideration what HE is 'not' saying. Because the word of God is read with blinders on even by His own!!! And what HE is not saying is for you to 'do' this. Let's face it, HE knows you can't! That is why He died. Neither does HE anywhere, command you to do what you cannot. But whatever HE commands, He does! That is why 11:30 says, "My yoke is easy," because HE DOES IT. That is what is called "Grace." Without it we would utterly fail and this conversation would be utterly useless.

Again, take into consideration that HE who said, "Be ye perfect," said also, "Let there be light." He said it. He did it! So if you read it properly, He did not tell you to 'do' something, but rather to 'have' something (The bible is mistakenly read this 'do' way). Therefore, for this to be manifest, one's faith has to be perfect! That is all. No big deal!!! That is what HE is after, and HE has made this possible through perfect faith, plain and simple. And what is perfect faith? Allow Him show you. For all the words in the world will not communicate what only He can. But after all, how hard is it to believe who HE says HE is (or does)?

I will tell you that it is the most personal that your relationship can be, for one must trust with abandon. They must realize through faith what HE has done and is doing. Then one is totally invested in Him, and as a byproduct, understands what it means to, "Love Him with all their heart, soul, mind and strength," as it is written that we are to do. And it all begins to fall into place when you get it.

Jesus is absolute. Faith is absolute, and sanctification is absolute! That is because Jesus is absolute. So faith in Jesus can be "perfect." And what does that then make you, by faith? And what is faith if it doesn't work? (James: show me your faith, and I will show you the fruit of my faith, which is the works that it produces.)

And what 'more' is all of this about? Well, transgression is doing what Jesus does not want you to do, right? Do you believe that it is possible 'not' to do what HE would disapprove of, even in thought? Do you believe that it is possible not to transgress Him? Remember! Jesus set the example, and these verses are for our encouragement regarding this very thing:

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

This simply says that HE set the example. He did it. And if we are in fear of transgressing Him, we can read Heb 4:16!!!

"By grace we are saved through faith." That throne of grace is the work of Jesus, the living word of God, and faith is the 'implementation' thereof. For what does HE say happens, "If we believe?" Do we receive?

You cannot 'do' it by trying. That is attempting to keep the law. But you can have it by trusting! That is the reason for faith. So, "Be ye perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect," is something you can walk in by faith, for He who said it performs it that we may abide in it.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

If one is listening to the spirit of man within him, he is fruitless, for he is listening to a dead man.

quote:
Eden
quote:
But when we, during the course of the day, again take up soul rule or flesh rule, instead of spirit rule, then we sin. Probably ALL soul rule or flesh rule is automatically sin.

Yes! This means that the soul is on the throne of one's own heart, therefore Jesus is cast off of the throne as one obeys the 'flesh'.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

The purpose of sin is to try to steal you away from Jesus.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

WildB, I think we could be the happy, happy, Joy, Joy if the first thing we did was seek Jesus as soon as we awake, pray, (praise and worship) in the morning, noon and night. Then, we won't be reacting from ourselves, but interacting with Jesus daily. It's our thought lives that keep us distracted and bring us down.

Now I think I'm getting a clearer picture of what you're saying Michael. I thought you were claiming to be perfect. What you are saying is that we are perfected by Jesus through faith. I wonder though how we can confess this when we know our sins. I guess that's where it takes an even greater measure of faith.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Jesus is our perfection, and He doesn't sin. So if we 'partake' of His perfection through faith, we step into the light. The only thing that clouds the picture, diminishing the light, is if we doubt.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:22-23).

“What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24).

1Ki 8:46 ¶ If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

I wish I could say I never sin, but like most people I do fall short in actions and in thoughts.
This is why it is important to ask forgiveness regularly.
betty

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

I'm so tired of that chapter in the Bible. Why did Paul put it in there.

Most likely betty louise, you have never risen above sin, but are a prisioner of it around the clock. There is what we see as sin, and there is what HE sees as sin. Inbetween what we see as sin is usually filled with what we don't even notice. But Jesus died to lift us above it, so that HE would be in our thoughts every moment, even whether waking or sleeping.

Sin keeps us from being near to Him. If we are near to Him, sin cannot persist. It dissapates. We cannot be near to Him, and sinning at the same time. And Paul was not saying that sin was inevitable in that book of Romans. HE was saying that if one tries to keep the law, all he would know is failure. And how many times does it say in the bible that it is by faith, not trying. The reason is that we receive something by faith. That is victory, not failure, peppered with repentance.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hello, Michael Harrison, you wrote

quote:
Inbetween what we see as sin is usually filled with what we don't even notice.

I was just wondering how we can see inbetween what is sin if we don't even notice?

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Carmela wrote to Michael Harrison

quote:
I do agree with you, but I am still confused about what you are saying when you say you are perfected.

I do think that if we are currently believing in Christ, then in God's sight we are already POSITIONALLY PERFECTED, meaning that God already COUNTS US AS PERFECT as long as we continue to believe in what Jesus did for us on the cross. Is that also what you meant, Michael Harrison?

love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison wrote, regarding what WildB wrote[quote]WildB, I think we could be the happy, happy, Joy, Joy.[/quote}I totally agree; God has been blessing my socks off because I have been delighting myself in the LORD, and now He is giving me all the desires of my heart. I am living life MORE ABUNDANTLY!

I can be the happy, happy, Joy, Joy.
love, Eden

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison wrote

quote:
I'm so tired of that chapter in the Bible. Why did Paul put it in there.

Paul did not put it there, the Holy Spirit put it in there. Are you now tired of what the Holy Spirit put in there? And which chapter is that, my brother?

love, Eden
"then sings my soul, my Savior God to me"

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Hi, Carmela, you wrote to Eden

quote:
Eden, although I see what you are saying, It seems to me that in a way you are basically saying what oneinchrist did only adding 2 repentance scenarios as far as I can tell. I don't remember the bible talking about 2 different types of repentance but I would like to read what you are referring to. Could you please show some scriptures so I can do more research.

I actually have only one repentance, but I divided it up into 2 parts to illustrate how my repentance would work within Christianity.

But I would edit my former statement by saying even my first repentance would have to include being sorry for being a sinner because of my soul rule, and then even after salvation I basically continue to perform the same kind of repentance, namely, not to take up soul rule, to be sorry for my new sins, and to continue to believe in what Jesus did for me.

So you are right, it is basically the same repentance that works on both sides of salvation and into sanctification. Thanks for calling me on that, I think this version is better.

BTW, thanks for participating and working in the vineyard of the LORD. The LORD pays an UNBELIEVABLE SALARY to those who work in His vineyard. Be blessed therefore. BTW, I sent the book Friday (yesterday).

love, Eden

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

So, I think what comes to my mind is that we are not perfect in flesh, but we are perfect in spirit because of the blood of Jesus. I know what I'm trying to say, hope it makes sense to others. Is this kind of what you are saying Michael. I'm only asking questions to try to grasp a better understanding of what you are saying.

Thanks Eden. I appreciate your comment and your gift. I have something for you also that I think you will appreciate. I just need to find it. It's called The Harness of the Lord and comes from Pinecrest. It's about putting on a harness like a horse does and then being able to be turned in whichever direction the Lord turns us in without putting up a fuss first. I've sent it to others and wish I could send one to everyone because it's really good.

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

carmela:

"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Surely we are not perfect in the flesh, that is why we are commanded not to walk in it! It cannot be perfected. It cannot be improved. So why the observation, "We are not perfect in the flesh?"

Walking in the Spirit is something 'beyond' the norm. It is something that Jesus empowers us to do, if we will only.

Posted by Betty Louise (Member # 7175) on :

Michael,

You don't know me, nor do you know whether I sin or don't sin. I will leave the judging of me to God.
As far as I am concern you live in the clouds to think you never sin, but then again, I will leave your judging to God. When you meet face to face with God, you can complain about that chapter in the Bible
betty

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Graciously accepted betty louise!

Mind you, while I have your attention, I do not mean to insult you even a little. It just is a fact of reality that there is a condition of the believer wherein he or she does not realize, or better yet, admit to. The devil makes us to feel it is unnecessary to bother with it, and for that matter, that we should cover it up. So I am not judging you. I am simply aware of the reality of the fallen nature common to us all. And without pointing out that reality, it is hard to illustrate the provision of our Lord, which is available to us all. This is what Paul was doing, yet, all that registers with the readers is what he said in Romans Seven, or what Peter said in one solitary verse, that "If we say we have no sin..." All the rest of scripture seems secondary to these two excerpts because the believer more easily understands their failure. But God's love is so much greater than that, in that He provided a way that we could abide in Him without sinning, that we may have fellowship with Him. What is that worth? If one will admit it, it would be worth everything that there is. So the devil makes it sound like I am being harsh, but it is not so.

I mean, do you have days when the clouds hide His face? Are you aware that that is not His wisdom, or His plan? He wants to come close.

Posted by Carmela (Member # 4817) on :

Michael, if you are saying that we are to walk in the spirit instead of the flesh, then aren't you basically saying the same as everyone else here is saying? I'll be honest and say that when I first read your posts you were come across as kind of arrogant and as if you think you are better than others. However, I wanted to really understand what you are trying to say, in spite of how you seemed to come across as judging others and being critical of us. Yet in your last post, you basically said the same thing as many others are saying.

You said:

quote:
"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh." Surely we are not perfect in the flesh, that is why we are commanded not to walk in it! It cannot be perfected. It cannot be improved. So why the observation, "We are not perfect in the flesh?"

Walking in the Spirit is something 'beyond' the norm. It is something that Jesus empowers us to do, if we will only.

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison wrote

quote:
This is what Paul was doing, yet, all that registers with the readers is what he said in Romans Seven ...

RE the part I bolded, you are again making assumptions that you cannot know since you are NOT in the readers' homes. You do NOT know what registers with readers and what does not.

You also said

quote:
So the devil makes it sound like I am being harsh, but it is not so.

Really...is the devil working that closely with you?

love, Eden

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

Well carmela, what is manifest? Rather, which is manifest? If someone (I don't mean this personal, but people in general) faults how you do something, do you minister the spirit, or does your flesh get the upper hand? That would be walkin in the flesh. If someone cuts in the line in front of you at Mcdonald's because the cashier took them before you, what happens inside? What makes it outside; that is, how do you react? Because, if you walk in the Spirit, you have a "What would Jesus do situation." Only I like to think of it as, "What will Jesus do, since HE has activly placed His spirit in us, and if we are "Walking in the Spirit," the fruit we bear will be out of Him. So, the condition of the heart is paramount if we are to know what it means to walk in the Spirit, and minister by the Spirit.

This is not the condition of the heart for most who are believing, because they justify obeying the flesh, and insist that they have no other choice, citing even, Romans chapter seven, and 1 John. That is perhaps why I sound arrogant (which I try not to). Because people will not receive it, and would rather I went away. All I am saying is what scripture says. (I have to look at myself as I say it because I 'take some liberties'.)

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
RE the part I bolded, you are again making assumptions that you cannot know since you are NOT in the readers' homes. You do NOT know what registers with readers and what does not.

The Spirit whom I know is in the reader's homes! I don't think you capable of understanding what that means though!

Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on :

Michael Harrison wrote to Eden

quote:
The Spirit whom I know is in the reader's homes! I don't think you capable of understanding what that means though!

Yes, the Spirit whom I know is indeed in the readers' homes; but He is guiding the readers in their homes, and He is guiding YOU in your home. But the Spirit is NOT gossiping to YOU about WHAT the readers and the Spirit are currently DISCUSSING with each other. They are NOT tale-bearers.

Nor do I think that the HOLY SPIRIT told you to say THIS to me, "I don't think you are capable of understanding what that means though". I don't think the Holy Spirit told you to say THAT to me either because God is LOVE and that is NOT a love statement. It is a "superiority" statement and also prejudging what I am capable of. You have NO IDEA what the Holy Spirit and I, or what the Holy Spirit and other readers, are capable of.

You are again meddling in other people's business. What happens between each Christian and the Holy Spirit is THEIR business and THEIR business only. Not yours.

Each Christian is different, depending on their knowledge of God:

2 Corinthians 2:14
Now thanks be unto God, which always causes us to triumph in Christ, and makes manifest the savor of His knowledge by us in every place.

So, to repeat what you said, Michael Harrison, to Eden

quote:
The Spirit whom I know is in the reader's homes!

Yes, the Spirit whom I know is indeed in the readers' homes; but He is busy guiding those readers in their homes and in THEIR daily lives.

And the Spirit is guiding YOU in your home (if so be that He is guiding you). But the Spirit is NOT GOSSIPING TO YOU about WHAT the Spirit and the readers are currently DISCUSSING in THEIR homes. The Spirit is NOT a tatle-tale.

There is NO NEED for the Spirit to go report to Michael Harrison what the Spirit and the other readers have been discussing today and what they have done today.

Tell me instead, how happy are you in Christ and how did you get there; and then maybe I'll copy some of your methods; or, maybe not, or only one or two.

Romans 14:4
But, who are you who judges another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls...

love, Eden
"make love our aim"

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
love, Eden
"make love our aim"

Love does not condone error! And on the rest of what you said, one hopes you are right. But usually such language is the voice of someone hiding something.

But since I have been on this board I have been telling:

quote:
Tell me instead, how happy are you in Christ and how did you get there; and then maybe I'll copy some of your methods; or, maybe not, or only one or two.

...and quoting scripture. No more can I do than I have already done. If you don't receive it, is it between you and me?

Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on :

quote:
Tell me instead, how happy are you in Christ and how did you get there; and then maybe I'll copy some of your methods; or, maybe not, or only one or two.

If I say that it is not in 'doing', and someone says that I am not telling them 'what to do', what am I to think? If it is not in doing, and I have so said, over and over, what would make someone ask about my methods? It is in the having. It is the 'revelation', or the revealing, which one will receive if he is simply willing to turn from (repent). It is not up to one to be strong in his own self - to overcome, because we can't. But overcoming is done for us.

Ok! Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Therefore, hearing the word should translate into faith of having. So I have described that what the believer needs to know, is easily discovered by translating the word 'law' in the book of Galations to 'doing', and the word 'faith' to the word 'having'.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey [by believing] the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the doing [ law], or by the hearing of having [faith]?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh [by your doing]?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the 'doing' [law][In other words, can he do it by trying?], or by the hearing of having [faith][For who does the doing if one is believing and receiving?].
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness [having].
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith [having], the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through having [faith], preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith [through having] are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the doing [law] are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the doing [law] to 'do' them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the doing [law] in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by having [faith][because HE is doing].
Gal 3:12 And the doing [law] is not of having [faith]: but, The man that 'doeth' them shall live in [doing] them [which is different than having].

So, having eliminates 'doing'. That is the 'law' of God under the New Testament - having! One is 'changed' by having, only if they are "surrendered" to it. For the only condition is that he/she believe unto having [because they realize that HE is doing, and they benefit therefore by having] which requires an exchange. That means that one believes that by the presence of Jesus Christ in the believer, as a result of being born again, one has everything they need not to "abide in sin," (notice how I said that), that their daily need is met, therefore one can live by Him, the "Bread of Life." Their steps are ordered of the Lord. That means that HE meets every situation for them, step by step, as they trust HIM for it, and all that they have to do is 'have'; whatever the need is, His will, not theirs.

This does not justify sin, or shortcoming.

"For all have sinned and come short of the Glory, of God."

Short of the Glory??? That means that they come short of shining 'with HIM'. One doesn't shine in shortcoming. And He died so that we could 'shine' with Him, and more appropiately, by Him.

But doing to have is eliminated by the Grace, Love, and Wisdom of our God. It is hard to grasp but having means that we can PRODUCE, good fruit. (Show me your faith by your works [James]).

The key ingredient besides faith is Jesus. One must believe unto letting Him 'do' it, thanking HIM that HE is. Thereby do they live by Him, and not the flesh.