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Topic: The straight gate /
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi guys,
I read the last few posts and they bring to mind some beliefs that I have wrestled with and some other beliefs that I still do.
When we read the book of Acts it shows us how the true church of Christ began. Something that I wonder about is that in todays day and age there seems to be a disconnect where in those days there was more of a flow. Let me try and explain to you what I mean.
First of all, when the word was preached, and it was welcomed ,then baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins quickly followed....given with the promise of receiving the Holy Ghost in His Name ......
but these days baptism has no sense of urgency (its all based on convenience and more tightly associated with church membership), and seldomly do you hear them say "and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
Someone try and convince me there is not a problem here.
Also the next "disconnect" that I would like to adress is more geared towards what BecauseHelives was explaining in his last post. What is the name given most of the time by the believers that were added to the church.......yes, "disciples"......very interesting. They were only named "Christians" by others who looked at them as some peculiar religion.
Do we hear that in our churches today? Should we hear that in our churches today?
Happy thanksgiving guys, God is good all the time
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
Happy Thanksgiving everyone, I pray everyone be blessed today.
The subject being the "narow gate" brings to mind a poem by the Messianic singer Johnathon Settle called "The eye of the needle"
Its very long so I wont post it all here but give a little background as I believe it speaks volumes about this gate.
In the poem, the speaker is telling of how in the night season he speaks with God and God asks him "son of man, whatis it that thou desires?"
And then the speaker goes onto to list each one in turn such as " God, I desire to be able to move the hearts of men with my playing of instruments and worship unto you"
Then God grants the man his hearts desire, but then after a time the man is not satisfied.
Then each time he speaks with God, again God asks him what his hearts desire is and again the man would say "That I may preach your word and win many souls, and then another time that he may be able to heal the sick, then again that he might cast out demons,
well, the list goes on and God each time grants the prayer of this man, but after a time the man is still not satisfied,
Then at last the man ask that he only wants that which God himself wants.
So God says, okay, then you must pass thru this gate called the "eye of the needle"
The man looks and sees that the passage thru it is very small and low. So he bows down to go thru but cannot, then the Lord says to him "Bow lower" but he still cannot enter,
Then God says "no, go even lower", and he still cannot enter.
Then the man says to God, I cannot go thru it with all my talants, my musical insruments, my talants, my books of learning ect...
Then God tells the man, "Drop them and enter"
Even though these were the gifts granted to hi by God it was a hard choice for the man but he drops all that God gave him and is able to go thru the gate.
When he is finally thru the gate, and on the other side he notices how wide it looks and there are all his gifts which God had provided him with that he laid down to get thru that gate.
Then the man looks thru this gate and sees his friends and loved ones trying to get thru this eye of the needle gate.
He hears each one in turn say things like-
"I cant go thru that gate, for I will have to lay my instruments of music down, and God gave me these intruments, I will not go."
Then he hears another ask "Lay down my weapons of warfare, my sword I use to protect the word of God?, No I will not do it"
and another, "Lay down my books of learning, those that help me prech the word of God just to go thru that slly little gate, I will not!"
Then the Lord tells the man that made it thru the gate, "These gifts they use are to move the hearts of Men"
Then in the narrative God goes on to tell the man how he made it thru the narrow gate, "the eye of the needle", was by laying down all those gifts given to him by God and doing that which God desired, namely ministering unto Him.
I know how hard this can be as for me personally being a minister of worship for many years in the assembly of God church, but God called me out and people there were just amazed at the fact that I would "Give up my Position" as so many put it.
But Yahweh God had another plan for me. It was His plan and doing, His work if you will.I guess what i am getting at is that we must yeild our will to His.
And by doing so, then His will is done in our lives. Dying to self is a very hard thing to do because of our nature, but wher we are weak He is strong, amen?
Okay, i have babbled enough. I think there are good points brought out by everyone here. Although I may not agree with all that has been said here, I am grateful for the fact that as believers we can come here and talk to one another.
Let us not forget that each of us must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. In the meantime, let us walk in love for one another, thanking Him always for what He has done for us.
Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
The "narrow road" and the "narrow gate" is all about—holiness in one’s life (Matthew 5:3-20).
13Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.
14But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.
15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
How different are the words of Michael Harrison from the words of Yeshua.
Michael Harrison says obedience is works yet Yeshua says different…
21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
The Lord has really laid something on my heart because of Michael Harrison’s teachings and I want to address it in this post.
The topic the “straight gate” as every topic in scripture is about salvation through the Blood.
What does it take to be saved?
Now salvation is really a very simple thing, or so most people think, but Yeshua made a statement that I want to look at:
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. [14] For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
What does He mean 'there are few who find it'? This statement sure makes it sound as if there is more to salvation (the narrow gate which leads to life) than we often think. I want to look at a couple other statements Yeshua made:
Luke 14:27-30 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. [28] For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? [29] Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, [30] saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'"
As I have said before, many people teach that you can be saved and not be a disciple of Yeshua Messiah. I believe that is a lie from the father of lies. Being a disciple means to follow the teachings of a person. So, what they are saying is that you can be saved and not follow the teachings of Yeshua Messiah
In this passage Yeshua is telling people who are trying to decide whether to follow Him or not, that they need to weigh the personal cost and make sure they can follow through. As I have stated before, it really doesn't matter what I think, it matters what Yahweh says, so let's see what He says about this:
2 Thes. 1:6-10 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, [7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, [8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [10] when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-for our testimony to you was believed.
Look closely at verse 8; those who do not know Yahweh and those (who do know Yahweh, but) do not obey the gospel.
Then look at what he says will happen to them in verse 9; they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction. This is no minor issue of doctrine, this is a plain warning in Yahweh's word and we all need to sober up and take stock of our lives.
Those who do not obey the gospel will not enter the narrow gate. We should never make a doctrinal stand on one passage of Scripture. To do so can lead a person into error, so we need to see if other Scripture agrees with what we see here.
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."
So what does it mean to have salvation? Does it mean to just believe that Yeshua is Yahweh's Son and that He came to die for your sins?
That is a great start but is it enough? No, according to these passages it is not enough. Salvation is simple and when a person truly comes to the knowledge that they are a sinner in need of a savior and that Yeshua is the only Savior available, they will also naturally understand that they must follow Him and abide in Him. This will include turning from their sins. How do I know this? Simple, the knowledge does not come from man but rather from Yahweh.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
No one comes to Yahwe on their own power, they must be drawn by the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit draws someone, He does not just give them part of the information. A person, truly convicted by the Holy Spirit and drawn to Yeshua, will understand that they cannot continue in sin, but must leave the darkness to live in the light. I believe that the Holy Spirit draws all men to Yeshua, but only a few, as Yeshua told us, actually go through the narrow gate to eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, [4] and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
People want to hear that they can live any way they choose and still be saved, so they flock to preachers who will tell them that all they have to lose is their rewards. This doctrine speaks out of both sides of its mouth. On the one hand it says that all a person's sins are forgiven, past, present and future the moment they believe in Yeshua Messiah. It also says that Yeshua paid the full price for our salvation and we will not have to answer for our sins, but then it also says that our rewards can and will be taken away as punishment for those sins that Yeshua has already paid the full price for. Yet people see no contradiction because they don't want to really hear the truth..
1 John 5:3-5 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. [4] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. [5] Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Again be careful how you interpret the statement- believes that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh. It does not just mean an intellectual belief, but rather a belief that is put into action. I won't quote the whole book of James here but read it if you don't believe me.
We are sending people to hell by the simple, no strings attached gospel we are giving people.
2 Tim. 3:1-5 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. [2] For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, [3] unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, [4] treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, [5] holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
The last days are upon us. People are all the things which Paul listed above. You need to understand that Paul was speaking of people who claim to be believers. He was not speaking about the world at large. Look what he says in another of his letters:
1 Cor. 5:9-13 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; [10] I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. [11] But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. [12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? [13] But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
The gate is narrow and few find it. Not because Yahwe hides it from them, but because few are willing to pay the price to truly follow Yeshua. Now I am often told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot walk away from Yeshua, but I don't believe that stands up to Scripture.
Ephes. 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
What happens when we grieve the Holy Spirit? I have often said that we must take the Bible as a whole to understand Yahwe and His word, so let's look:
Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, "Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely." So He became their Savior. [9] In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. [10] But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.
These were Yahweh's people, and He called them His Sons, yet what happened when they grieved His Spirit? He became their enemy. Can we find confirmation of this idea in the rest of Scripture? Yes…
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
You can't become something if you were it to start with. These people, to whom James is speaking, can't be non-believers. They can't be non-believers, because we are all born into this world as enemies of Yahweh and must be reconciled to Him through Yeshua Messiah, so a non-believer can't "become" an enemy of Yahweh, only someone who has been reconciled to Yahweh can "become" an enemy of Yahweh, as the children of Israel did.
Galatians 6:7-9 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. [8] For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. [9] Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
We cannot live our lives for ourselves and still enter the narrow gate. If we live life to please our sinful nature (flesh) we will not enter that narrow gate, but if we live our lives to please the Spirit we will receive eternal life. Again Yahweh can't be mocked.
Salvation is a simple matter, when drawn by the Holy Spirit we need to come to faith in Yeshua and part of that faith is that we understand that we must follow Him and turn from our sins. Those who continue in the light as He is in the light will enter the narrow gate which leads to eternal life, but those who decide to follow the world and satisfy their sinful nature will be cast out into the darkness, away from Yahweh's presence.
No one can take us out of Yahweh's protective hand, we need not fear losing our salvation, but we should be sober and alert that we do not choose to leave that protection and reject the Savior who bought us.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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posted
I thought it would be a good idea after 3 pages of discussion to REPEAT the original TOPIC text that becauseHElives posted to start this Topic and see if we can refocus on some of the things said in that Topic text (not because Eden wrote that text originally but because becauseHElives said that Eden was asking a good question), let's see if it can be milked or meated for anything else. Here is the original text of the Topic again: quote:
brother {becauseHElives}, in your opinion, what does this narrow gate look like?
Is what Jesus did on the cross the narrow gate?
John 10:7
Then said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
When compared to the world and all of its philosophies, choosing Jesus and His death and resurrection instead of the rest, that IS a narrow gate.
May I ask you, becauseHElives, What does the gatekeeper of the narrow gate ask anyone who tries to enter the narrow gate?
And let's say that some AdamandEve person MAKES IT THROUGH THE NARROW GATE BY PERMISSION FROM ITS GUARD, at that poin the AdamandEve person is a CHRISTIAN right, even if they stay close to the narrow gate after that?
They are STILL in the kingdom of God aren't they, as long as they are on the INSIDE of the narrow gate? Help me out here...
with love, Eden
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Michael Harrison, you are much to spiritual for me.
You have a theology that puts the Martyr’s to shame, so that leaves me completely out.
quote:
sitting in the armchair and enjoying the show ….
You never bothered to comment.
It’s a shame the martyr’s don’t understand your special understanding.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
Daniel: These long post are difficult. You have to be really dedicated to read them, especially since my continuity is not always cont. So I keep this un short.
quote:
Paul does use metaphors. There is no question on that. His objective being to make the truth become more alive to the hearers. If you say "Christ lives in me" and I say that "His spirit lives in me" it can virtually mean the same thing.
If you want to make a case for the Trinity, here is one, for what is it worth. The Holy Spirit did not die for you on the Cross. He is not the image of the Invisible God. He is not the begotten, the word by which we are made to live (yet he does make us to live, but not without Jesus). It is the word of God who gives us life, enabling the Spirit to fill us. Just a mention on the difference.
quote:
I am confused over your explanation on sin. Are you implying that there would not be a need for repentance in the life of one who is fully surrendered to Christ? That they dont sin?.......
This is a hard concept. Repent all the way! Then you don't need to repent, unless you sin:
"1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write
I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
So if we:
"1Jn 2:3 hereby do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
We do not abide in sin by way of 'keeping'of the commandments, which doesn't involve 'doing' but 'having' based on accepting Him doing it for us,(whom the Son sets free is free indeed. He keeps the commandments by being in control for us, and we can avoid sin by not taking it away from Him. You will have to humble yourself to this fact in order to receive it) and:
"1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (there is a reason that he says this); but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Is this epistle a picture of someone who is struggling with sin? Do you not get an impression that these authors, Peter and John are unapproachable and trying to tell you how to be also?
Falling into sin, and sins, like one here and one there, is a reality, but it is not to be our state of being. For most Christians it is a literal state of perpetual being, from where they will commit even more. They will never taste freedom from it so that they can relate to 1Jn5:18. They don't believe that they are delivered, not condemned to it (Romans). They are continually in sin, and commmiting sins. Their nose never rises above the flood.
They will bite your head off if you challenge them.
There is a place above sin from which you can fall. You have to be above it in order to fall. You cannot walk in the light as He is in the light for a nanosec if you are in sin. Sin is darkness and John would've had no reason to say walk in the light if you could not escape darkness. Anyone who says that Jesus does not deliver us, and is not able to keep us out of reach from sin if we are willing, makes God a liar. Nobody believes this though because they love the darkness and blindly accept defeat and the most gastly thing, justify it:
"Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
If you think you have to live in the dark and continually repent, you do not understand the blood of Jesus. And you are not alone. People read the word with blinders on the heart. What will you say to Jesus if you think you are not delivered from sin so that you can see His face?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Eden,
Long time no see! I was used to seeing you on here daily for a while. Its nice to see you back for fellowship.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
Nicely said Eden, however when He says easy, He means something profound by it.
Concerning the talent, very perceptive. the one who buried his talent is the one who accepts Jesus, then considers that He has that out of the way, and goes on with life (though he may even go to church). I have known people who stated it to me exactly this way. So if you consider the parable of the sewer,and of some falling on stony ground, where they didn't take root, this would be he. He withered and died. Only a stalk was left standing. Needless to say, he gets the boot on judgement day. Why? Because He didn't 'receive' all that God had for him!!! It has little to do with 'work'. God's return on you is what you receive from Him. Literally, what HE can do through you.
If this man's heart had taken root in God, he might have been a worthy investment, and good for him. Instead, his heart took root in the world. He got saved, but his heart took root in the world.
That guy who got five was the one who got the Holy Ghost! Because that is my experience (and again, not putting God in a box). It has to do with what you receive from Him, that He wants to do for you, not what you do for Him.
The guy who got ten? He went all the way to sanctification. Thas my take and i am pressing it together with the Apostles! ![[Wink]](wink.gif) Sanctification is what I speak of in my posts. My last post says a little about this.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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TB, sorry you don’t like my greetings. However it is always interesting to interchange with someone new.
I must tell you that I felt awkward when I wrote that about your ‘receiving it’. FYI. I thought perhaps it shouldn’t be said, but it wasn’t strong enough for me to change it. Probably I was just focused on other things. But here we go. This is another salvo, and what I have done is delete the previous post, because it didn’t, in retrospect come out like I wanted. Much of it will sound the same, if you care to read it at the bottom.
I respect your years in Christ, and your admonition about reading up on Calvin, and other things. We’ll see.
Only this morning I listened to a radio preacher talk about being filled with the Spirit. That is not my topic, but something he said resembled something stated, a post or two ago by oneinchrist and earlier by yahsway. So let’s make it easy. He said there is a continual process of breaking your will, changing your emotions and renewing your mind. I just wanna say ‘get past it’. But I won’t. You know; get to the head of the class. That is what He is calling you to do. Quit the continual process, and receive and walk in the finished work. I will make no firmer statement than this probably: You are sanctified the very moment that you believe; that is, the very moment that you believe unto it. In the meantime, you are not! It is not a shade of gray, hence the strong verbiage given to us in 123John, and Peter by sanctified believers. If you’ll read them, these are not the words of dabblers in Christianity. These are firm, crisp words of Christian faith that set a standard. Come to the end of yourself and the beginning of Jesus in one single step.
If you remember the days of the SLR Cameras, you will be familiar with focusing a lens. If you focus beyond, or in front of what you are wanting to represent as the subject, the out of focus subject becomes blurred. The Christian faith is like that. If you focus short of the intended, you get an un-discernable picture in yourself. It has nice color, but what does it mean? It is like Paul saying “if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who will hear?” What you have is a picture of Christians that is out of focus everywhere you go. And people will fight you over it if you challenge it. I have this calling to:
Heb 3:13 exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
And to:
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
I know that you challenge that, but here is my next strong statement: Jesus saves you, and delivers you from sin by replacing your heart with Himself. This statement is worth treasuring! Anything less is out of focus, and non productive.
There is a sword in the land. It is parting to the left and to the right. If you don’t see it yet, you will. You will fall on the one side or the other. In Revelations Jesus says to be hot or cold, not lukewarm or He will spew you out of His mouth. Therefore I beseech thee that I may speak. You have been kind to listen, and I don’t mind questions or challenges. We are in this together to the Glory of God. and I can explain myself.
Old Post:
You don’t do what you already have. If you listen to prayers of people, we spend time praying for Him to be what He already is. We spend time praying, asking Him to do what He already has done. It is silly. If you have it already, you don’t do it. How do you do it if you have it? If He is that already, you just thank and praise Him for it being so. Don’t ask Him to do what He has done; thank Him for what He is knowing, and doing. Trouble is, you don't believe that, and you want to do it for Him.
Let’s face it. We live in the earthly, and the Spiritual (the heavenly) at the same time. Therefore the earthly verbiage is prolific according to a style of living here. Something said like, ’To walk' doesn’t imply that you are walking. It is in the spiritual, simply having by perserverance. You are not producing something. Obedience doesn’t produce something. It just receives something through faith, (that He does). You are receiving something that is 'done', and you didn’t do it. You are walking in what is fact. He said His works were finished from the foundation of the world. This is the rest of God.
Paul says to ‘run’. You don’t run in fact. You run by standing.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
You notice that he doesn’t say, as you will hear in Christian communications everywhere, go attack! Take! Name, Claim! He says simply to stand – and have! It is breathtakingly simple!
It is a way of relating things. You must understand the spiritual way of understanding things related in earthly terms. (You have to look past.)
Let me talk about obedience. One could say that following is obedience! Of course! But it is following after, by which one receives. If you are led, you are a son. If you set out to establish whatever, expecting Him to accept it, you were not led. How can you know if you are led if you are not “closer to Him than a brother?” Nuf said for the moment.
About this quote:
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which is given to him/her and not earned by any of his/her works of obedience, that it eventually drops him/her off into heaven without him/her having anything to do during the process of his/her santification. Such a doctrine would eliminate any personal consequences for free will and make salvation completely the active work and selection of God for every individual. That would be a position of extreme Calvinism.
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Believe unto Him and He will sanctify you by the circumcision of faith, which is believing, which in turn is basically receiving what is, and what He is. What is, is because He does! Who He is, is what He does. I’m not being funny. That is how it is. We have something truly good and cannot appreciate it.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
We are that by Him through faith. It is His work, and His working. We are that by His life in us – if – we accept and walk in it. He is made unto us sanctification. Therefore we are sanctified by faith in this very thing, a fact of reality.
He is made unto you - this! It is heavenly. Unto – you. You are having because of this, His being made unto you. It isn’t something you do. You accept, believe. You have it, and are walking in it, unless you do not believe. Do we know the consequences of unbelief? Apparently not. The Shepard walks. You follow.
The belief unto sanctification does not eliminate any consequences of free will. As you accept by surrender, you experience…. If by your free will, you fail in this respect, you “FALL FROM GRACE.” Do I need to go into that? Your will is not on auto pilot ever in this lifetime. It is your choice every moment! Bing!! You can believe in His love toward you, or spurn it. You can try to earn it, even though you already have it, or you offer the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.
(I’ll skip around)
Tell you what. We should not ask ourselves if we are saved. That is a big subject, with heavy scriptures pointing to a few possibilities, considering stones, wheat, tares, goats and sheep etc. I could write a book right there. We should ask ourselves if we are reconciled. To be reconciled is to be one with Him. To be one with Him is to live by Him. “I am the Resurrection.” “Apart from me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5)
quote:
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referring to what Jesus has "done" for us through his death and resurrection
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It is what He ‘is doing’ as you trust, because of His very sacrifice, death and resurrection, by which He is now able to come to us in this way, which otherwise He could not.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection , and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
I am the resurrection. Everyone is looking to Heaven for after they die for resurrection. Jesus says here that HE IS the resurrection. That means something very personal to you. Believe me. You live His life, if He is within you. You live it! That will be the resurrected life. You live His life, if He is within you, the resurrected life, or you walk in the flesh in contempt of His life, which is within you.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many ; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The promises are to Christ. Christ is the one who benefits, therefore He must be in you for you to benefit by Him. “If you abide in me and I abide in you.” You must be in Him by death on the cross, through faith in His death on the cross on your behalf. Then you are alive in Him, and by Him, a new creature in union with God, the power of creation. The promises are not to you. They are to Him. They are to you, by His life within you, by impartation. Who will argue?Therefore you must be “hid with Christ in God.” You cannot be simply alongside Him, and over here, and Him there. There is an intersection wherein the two become one. From there – joy and salvation!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Eden
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I've been busy and have not had time to read this long interaction. So I'll just say that salvation is 100% free (Jesus died on the cross for us while we were yet sinners).
But beyond salvation rewards can be had but for rewards one must work in the vineyard of the Lord, which to me means "help publicize the coming kingdom of God through preaching and openly stating that Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the third day". For that work, we receive rewards.
But only Jesus secured salvation for us; man has no part in that at all. So if any of my effort is aimed at "securing salvation", I'm wasting my effort because only Jesus can pay and did pay for our salvation on the cross, suffered, died, and rose again.
But if any of my efforts are geared toward rewards by helping the Lord with His Kingdom proclamation, then my efforts are redeemable in rewards ("be you over 10 cities" and "be you over 5 cities" and "be you over 2 cities").
Salvation a 100% free gift, finished, paid for entirely by Jesus. Rewards is something that we can choose to work for.
By not adequately separating how we receive salvation from how we receive rewards, discussions ensue in which salvation and rewards are discussed as if they are acquired in the same way, but they are NOT acquired in the same way, and not even by the same person. Salvation is acquired ONLY BY JESUS and rewards are acquired ONLY BY THE BELIEVER.
However, faith without works is dead. That shows that faith is connected to works and faith or salvation does not entirely stand alone and can be received only if it evolves into some works.
And that is explained by the parable of the talents where the one with 5 talents made 5 more talents (with his salvation he got 5 more salvations or he preached extra good) and the one with the 2 talents got 2 more salvations or work in the vineyard of the Lord.
But the one who got one talent (one salvation) did not do anything at all and then the Lord said, "take from him even that which he has", and what has he? He has salvation because Jesus secured that for him.
But when the person who had salvation did nothing to help others get saved by helping to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God, when that person does nothing, it appears that God will even take back what he had, namely salvation through Jesus. Because, faith without works is dead.
Salvation is free to the person who helps out in the vineyard of the Lord, no matter how little. Even if it is just money to another Christian who IS preaching and teaching the good news, which the parable of the talents called "at least you should have put it in the bank". Because this sone person DID NOTHING, even what he had, namely salvation through Jesus, is apparently taken away from him too because God has declared that faith without works is dead.
However feebly, faith and works ARE connected to each other, and one must do at least a tiny little bit in order to be allowed to keep the faith-salvation part.
"Learn of Me, My yoke is easy." But it IS a yoke and yokes are FOR WORK.
with love, Eden
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TB125
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Michael,
You "greet" me, but you obviously don't know me or need to get to know me before you make such judgments about me as in your following comment: quote:
I will have to come back and say more, but i cannot do anything for you as long as you do not believe and receive, as long as you are not able to accept the finished work and what it means.
I do believe, and I have done so since I was baptized in 1941 at the age of 10. I have received God's grace, and I'm thankful everyday for his forgiveness and cleansing power. I don't believe that God is "finished" with me, yet I'm extremely thankful for his patience with me as I seek to be more faithful and fruitful in my service and the stewardship of the gifts that he has given to me.
If you want to know more about me before you make such judgments, I invite you to examine the statements that I have written on "Christianity and other good topics". You will find them on my website here: http://www.christianityetc.org.
I began preaching and teaching the good news of Jesus Christ in 1953, shortly after you were born. I encourage you to spend some time in the study of Calvinism, Arminianism,and other expressions of historic theology before you go much further in your efforts to teach a "new" level of salvation theology.
You have not explained to me how "to walk" is not an activity of obediently following Jesus but it is to "have" his grace, particularly when he said the following:
quote:
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love....You are my friends if you do what I command. (John 15:10, 14)
You put an uusual interpretation on some very familiar passages of Scripture and you seem to be ready to judge anyone who doesn't seem mature enough to accept your "high" theological doctrine of salvation. I'll keep examining your postings to see if I can make any theological sense out of them, but your position doesn't seem to me to be in keeping with biblical theology.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Since I'm on thanksgiving vacation I have more time to fellowship here. You sure came back with a pretty quick response to my last post.
You stated that the means is important when it comes to achieving the goal of lifting up the Name of Christ. I do agree with you on that. I should have emphasized that a full understanding on exactly how all the elements work together to achieve that goal are not as important as the pursuit of that goal. The Lord surely can come and surprise us when we think that something is going one direction and it suddenly takes a turn. We can never think that we have God all figured out. If we are part of a bigger plan, then God is the one bringing the many pieces together to accomplish His will....when the stage is set for us we are to stand up for truth.....whether its before family members or High ranking officials.
Paul does use metaphors. There is no question on that. His objective being to make the truth become more alive to the hearers. If you say "Christ lives in me" and I say that "His spirit lives in me" it can virtually mean the same thing. I refuse to get webbed up in disputes over terminology. So long as we both understand what each other is saying, I believe that we can move on. Now, if you said that you actually become Jesus then I would feel the need to adress this issue further.
I am confused over your explanation on sin. Are you implying that there would not be a need for repentance in the life of one who is fully surrendered to Christ? That they dont sin?.......because it is Jesus "doing" the obedience part. I am not really understanding you on that issue. Surely we have many examples in the bible of Godly leaders who fell into sin.....did they not know how to properly surrender? This topic will need to be cleared up, I venture to say, before I will better understand your stance. There seems to be a connection between the message that you are trying to convey about surrendering and the disposition of sin as a result of it....but I need you to explain it more to really understand what you are trying to say.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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TB125
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Michael,
You said in your last effort to teach us the difference between "having" and "doing" this: quote:
You are not being perfected. It is something He has already DONE! The only thing that is missing is for you to discover, and to walk in it.
I think that many of us who are critically trying to discuss this matter with you don't understand how "to walk in it" is not to obey Jesus. How can "to walk" not be an activity? How can "to walk" not be something that one does?
I don't believe, and I'm sure that other participants in this thread, that salvation is like a conveyor belt that once a person gets on it by the Grace of God, which is given to him/her and not earned by any of his/her works of obedience, that it eventually drops him/her off into heaven without him/her having anything to do during the process of his/her santification. Such a doctrine would eliminate any personal consequences for free will and make salvation completely the active work and selection of God for every individual. That would be a position of extreme Calvinism.
You are apparently trying to clarify a narrow difference between "surrender" and "obedience", between "having" the Grace of God and "doing" His will through faithful stewardship and service. Through your many postings I don't think that you have been able to explain how one can "faith without works" (in the words of James).
Please clearly explain to us what you really mean by telling us that we need to "walk in it", referring to what Jesus has "done" for us through his death and resurrection. If this isn't some activity that we do, what is it? I will be looking for your answer, and I'm sure that others will be as well.
Bob
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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Michael Harrison
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posted
This is some good stuff to work with Daniel. I’ll take a little bit at a time, and I am going to shock you.
quote:
If the goal is to lift up the Name of Jesus, then why all the fuss about the means to obtain that goal.
The means is totally important! Vitally.
quote:
So Jesus performs His work through us ,by His spirit, in our submission to His will. So, Michael, when you say that it is Jesus "doing" the doing part, do you mean that it is Him literally? in the sense that you literally become Jesus yourself?
Yes, but no!
quote:
As far as sin is concerned...we are in a lifelong process of crucifying the old nature in us....never becoming perfect, but being perfected.
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when Paul used the expression Christ in me, was it not a metaphor?
See! Here is the root of a problem. Here is the message that in my ‘obedience’ I relate! Here is where “The breaking of the outward man,” as Watchman Nee described it in the title of His book, occurs; else there is no precious ointment from the believer as was evident when Mary broke over Jesus’ head the alabaster box. Here is where I shock you, yet not I, if you are able to receive it. These four excerpts that I have extracted tell a story of unbelief, and denial, not to be mean. For I aim to edify! These will help me describe the difference between obedience that is fruit, and that which is will worship. This will likely hurt.
When you say “was it not a metaphor,” you illustrate what it is for self to live. (It will be hard to address, because it is bottomless with clues.) For self to live, Christ is displaced in your life. You are deceived into thinking you are obedient, while you are really distracted from Him. You mean well, but don’t we all. It is no metaphor. If you have found the surrender that He is looking for, it is quite literal, and the world will kill you for it. There is a place of brokenness wherein you realize that it is true, not metaphorical.
What evidence do I have of that? Rather than answer directly at this point let me draw up this which you said: “As far as sin is concerned...we are in a lifelong process of crucifying the old nature in us....never becoming perfect, but being perfected.” This is profoundly ridiculous. Here is the point here: You still think that you are 'doing' it. If you live for two hours after getting saved, then I guess that is enough time for you, while another has to live for 58 years to crucify the old nature. What’s done is done. He 'done' it. You must surrender to it and walk in it. Here is the whole point that I would make (oops, not me but the truth of the word). When you reach sanctification, you have ceased to live, practically speaking, and He begins to be manifest on earth – in you. This is what He is looking for. If He waits for you to do it, it'll never get done, because you can't.
You can spend your whole life ‘doing’ it, whatever it is, but you will not be laying up treasure in heaven. You will be technically described as, in defeat! Is that where you are supposed to live, in defeat? No!
All proud people claiming to ‘go to the cross’ are not really. Taking up the cross explicitly means to them doing something that they don’t want to do, but that they are going to bite the bullet and do, because they are being obedient. That is vulgar in His sight. It is the wrong meaning. It is from the concept of ‘doing to earn’. Serving, however, is a joy. You can live in a camper, be diving in dumpsters and be happy.
When you say that Jesus works through us by His Spirit, that is so correct, but it is not complete. The reason He gives us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, for those who are shaking to consider anything having to do with feeling, is so that Jesus can be manifest to us, and in us - by His Spirit.
I listened to the radio today. The DJ talked about a book she was reading. It described how that Jesus ‘walked in our shoes’ so that He could relate to us on our level. That was before He died. He did it so that He could walk in our shoes after He rose!
2Pe 1:19 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:” Jesus the daystar.
When He said in Revelation:
“Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. “
Who was doing the speaking? Jesus. What did he say? If you open the door! Listen, who wants to open the door? All His sheep have gone astray. They are pleased with themselves and their diddly sacrifice. If you open, He says that He will “come in and sup with him – and he with me.” Metaphorical? Personal and real! Jesus will.
When He says in the gospels that “if you abide in me and I in you,” metaphorical? Notice in both cases there is a mutual, cross connection. You are both in each other. (All this information is in my other posts. ) I cannot say this strongly enough. You never become Jesus, but if you die (not just kid yourself) He walks in your shoes, whatever you want to call it. So whenever Paul says it is no longer I that live but Christ liveth in me, he is being literal. It just doesn’t happen without faith, and the frightening prospect of coming to the end of yourself. Until it does you are not sanctified unto Him.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Rom 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
You are not being perfected. It is something He has already DONE! The only thing that is missing is for you to discover, and to walk in it. There is a discovery. Until you come to this point you have not even started to walk. You are nursery bound. Until then, it is not that He hasn’t done it. You are only piddling around and making excuses, using growing or some other heretical understanding for consolation, in violation of His commandment! You are in trespass!
Every scripture backs this up and I am ready, over and over to show it, but it is like my last post said, it is hard to tell the dull of hearing, who will smite you even if they could by way of being offended by what they cannot yet, or do not want to swallow.
I am not going to touch the old lady example. If the woman falls, of course, pick her up. Only realize, if Jesus didn’t do it, you might be at a loss when she brings you to litigation! (Lol, just a little reality of our times.)
This is hard to approach and explain. You have to be so careful. Yet if I don’t, though they stone me, I am responsible to Him for not! There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God, yet they will not enter in for unbelief. They not only will not enter the Kingdom, they prohibit others from entering in. Unless Jesus walks in your shoes, how can you be:
“1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. “
Fellowship one with another. You live in me; I live in you. You sup with me, and I sup with you. This doesn’t happen unless He cleanseth you from sin. Then He can embrace you this way. An unpenitent and untrue heart will not allow it though. It is not a growing thing.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God [who walks in me because he], loved me, and gave himself for me.
I live by HIS FAITH, moving, doing (by having). If Jesus doesn’t live in you, you are reprobate!
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be reprobates?
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life , shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Who is our life. Not ‘who our life is about’. This is literal. This is the same as saying Christ as me, which is how Norman Grubb says it. It is entirely scriptural, if you have passed from death to life, because "who is our life," describes this very thing. Examine the references.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
His life is our newness of life. His life in us.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Together with Christ, intermingled by faith. Union. Cross intersected. You live by His life.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for the response. Correct me if I am wrong, that you do believe that obedience is important....so we see eye to eye on that. Ok, now you are saying that Jesus is the one who is carrying out this obedience in us so long as we are fully surrendered to Him. But if I am not fully surrendered then its just my obedience, which is vain. Ok, now let me put this belief system into practical application for a moment so I can understand you better.
#1Lets say there is an elderly woman who falls down and you are there to help her up. If you are fully surrendered to Jesus, then Jesus is the one who actually helped her up....ok next
#2Lets say there is an elderly woman who falls down and you are there to help her up. If you are not fully surrendered to Jesus, then it is only you who helped her up, and not Jesus.
In both scenarios the elderly woman is helped. So the will of God is fullfilled in both scenarios. Hmmmmmmm?
If one speaks on the importance of obedience to Christ, does that mean that he/she has not fully surrendered to Jesus? (You should not assume about me)
If one speaks on the importance of surrender to Jesus, does that mean that they are not obeying Christ? (as I should not assume about you)
Is it because I speak on the importance of obedience that you believe that I am vain, and that I seek to glory in my flesh? If it takes obedience on our part for God to be glorified, then who would speak against the importance of it? If the goal is to lift up the Name of Jesus, then why all the fuss about the means to obtain that goal. You want to call it 'His' obedience vs. 'our' obedience and you want to call it faith 'of' vs. faith 'in'. What is all this fuss for?????Especially if the goal is achieved
I have the feeling that I am in the midst of some individuals who love the Lord very much. If they are afraid to dissappoint God, then that fuels their desire to serve and obey Him. How can that be a bad thing?
How can anyone teach another how to fully surrender to the Lord? We can read scripture to see how others lived by faith, and we can listen to each others testimonies as encouragement. Michael, sometimes I get the feeling that you are more focused on feeling than purpose. It seems that you are continually trying to describe something that is beyond most of our comprehension. Our focus should be to get the Word out, and hope for positive response.
I do believe in the importance of surrender....in the sense of denying ourselves, taking up our cross, and following Christ. I also believe in personal responsibility and accountability in the Lord. We are constantly faced with circumstances where we can choose to obey or disobey God. Though I believe that a person can fall away, I do not believe it will happen to ones who are afraid to fall away. As far as sin is concerned...we are in a lifelong process of crucifying the old nature in us....never becoming perfect, but being perfected. God is not sitting by waiting for us to sin in order to cast us away....but if we sin, and we know it, we need to repent. That is where our relationship with God is real.
Sometimes the way that you try to describe surrender, it makes me feel like you must never struggle with sin because you have got the surrender part mastered. So the problem that Paul had with the Corinthians and sexual immorality....... Do you believe that was because they had not surrendered fully to Christ? or was it because they didnt want to take responsibility for their sin and repent? or both?
The last thing thing that I would like to discuss is this.....It has to do with metaphor and literalism. Now, when Paul used the expression Christ in me, was it not a metaphor? Is'nt the literal truth that His spirit is with us signifying that He is truely exalted to Gods right hand of power in Heaven. So Jesus performs His work through us ,by His spirit, in our submission to His will. So, Michael, when you say that it is Jesus "doing" the doing part, do you mean that it is Him literally? in the sense that you literally become Jesus yourself?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Believing is another one of those words that implies action; the tree does not produce fruit on its own but by the source of life in it.
Yes! The tree stands perfectly still and the source produces the fruit! All the tree does is 'receive' and lift its limbs in praise for the Son!
2Ch 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, 'stand ye still', and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; tomorrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.
Isa 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and 'rest' shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not!
Psa 46:10 Be 'still', and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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First of all, faith is not an action word. To make it an action word is to makes it a dead works word. This is diametrically opposite to every word I share. It takes it out of God’s hands and makes self the conqueror. If God is the action, your action verb is in vain. It is a work of the flesh to make faith an action verb, since God does the doing, as you do the having. To make it an action word is the sin of Cain. Yes, I said sin.
Able had a relationship with God. It is apparent that it is so, for who would have thought of a blood sacrifice? Would you have? I would have never. Therefore it likely came out of relationship, of knowing. Otherwise, best estimate will have it that it was all that he had to offer, so he did.
He may not have been a strong person. His brother may have been the more excellent of the two. Cain was, ‘pleased with himself.’ Therefore he felt certain that his sacrifice was more excellent, no question. He gave what he wanted to give, because he thought it good, but it was not what God wanted. That’s the point. That he exalted himself proudly in his sacrifice was evident, because when it was rejected, that is, when he was reproved for his high self estimation, he was pricked! He flew into a rage because he did not get his way, which he thought should be right. Some poor fellow died for his inability to submit himself to the Father because he was self important.
People like becausely feel no remorse for nastily referring to this message as false doctrine, or a lie. They come on with this kind of rhetoric and frighten the sheep who would come and drink. If I recall correctly, sheep will only drink out of still water. The Lord will hold him responsible who is blinded by the sacrifice of getting themselves recognized by lofty verbage, who thrash the water!
Paul gave us 1Cor chapter 13. The love man! Here is how Paul did so nicely put it to the Hebrews one day when he was in a loving mood. He wanted them to move into the greener pasture of the Father’s provision, and put down the toys of action verbs in the name of submission.
Heb 5:11 “Of whom we have many things to say to you, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are so dull of hearing. “
Ha, ha ha!
I’ll bet their eyes got wide when they read that! Dull of hearing? Now that’s not being nice, love man. But you can bet your bottom dollar that Paul wanted to shake them and tell them to wake up. He goes on:
Heb 5:12 ”For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. “
In other words, you, thinking of yourself as Christian Powerhouses of faith because of your action verbs, are just a bunch of nursery schoolers who are still on baby bottles, and you are not ready for the solid food; and what about, “the first principles of the oracles?” What are they? The most important thing, the primary ingredient of relationship.
“Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. “
Full age! That is what he wants them to come into. One evidence of that is that they have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil, which they are unaware that they are unaware of. They cannot tell whereof Paul is speaking because they are not familiar with it yet.
But concerning the nursery days, he then says that you have been there already, and done that. Yet you are stuck there, and refuse to grow up. You let someone tell your itching ears that thing which the flesh is a sucker for, which feels good to you to do! But it is wrong. So he says:
“Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
This is the baby stage! Quit redoing over and over the “laying again of the foundation of repentance from ‘dead works’, and of faith toward (not of, or by - as in, per perfection) God.” Finally grow up. Don’t fall back into that. The “doctrine of baptisms, and the laying on of hands,” is our first evidence of being born into the Kingdom. It pleases our Father to enamor us with these perfectly neat and cool Heavenly trappings that are clearly not of ourselves. It is for our faith. They are however, nursery schoolers comforts that we are to look beyond. It was not intended for one to spend their whole Christian life simply playing with these toys. So Paul, he says to “go onto perfection.” That is, as he was just speaking in this chapter, the rest of God, the Union of Christ, as opposed to a child’s imitating by doing.
The person who is loves their life, who is most afraid to die, that He may live, is the one who will kick the hardest trying to live. They will say cutting things supposing themselves to be defending God. It comes out of their self righteousness, which is as dirty rags!
The gift of God is to have all that He offers. He will do it, if you will just give Him the Glory. It is a hard thing to humble yourself to this! But this is how it is. See His salvation today!
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Member # 6801
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posted
i am sorry about your difficulties Daniel. I am not a stranger to it myself. My mom had very similar, very extreme problems. I also know what it feels like to visit at an institution where there are so many unfortunately afflicted people. Sad.
When i was in elementary school there was a girl who had epilepsy. She had a fit during class. I panicked and ran out of class. It took me by surprise and shook me.
Your last post tells me how you feel, what you believe. I already know that about you. Jesus knows that about you. Is that what He wants you to know? That is how most people feel. That is how people that Paul and the Apostles were set to address, felt. It is the mainstream. People take it for granted and stubbornly feed in that pasture they have found. Jesus sends witnesses to call them to the chosen pasture, but they don’t listen. It is very hard.
This is hard to say. I cannot impart it. One has to seek for it. But what I am trying to say in part is that, what you think you are doing to obey, you are doing on your own, in your own strength. Therefore you are not descipling, you are committing feel good practices only, by and large.
I know that He speaks, or leads us. Take for example a man of my day who felt led to go to New York to preach. Three times he took up an offering to go there. It must have been hard to go home and say to his flock that he could not shake it; he must try again, and take up another collection for another fruitless trip. Eventually though, as a result of his obedience, a man, a foul man, a gang leader, vicious beyond description, got saved. His name is Nicky Cruze. And that is blessed! However, if you look at the apostles, by comparison, David Wilkerson, as I said, blessed though he is, he doesn’t fit seamlessly into that pictured by the book of Acts of the Apostles. (If this will help you have a clue about what I am saying.) God is calling us deeper, especially in this hour.
If you are in union with Him, which is our obedience, which is our calling, whatever He says do, you don’t do it. He does it by you. It is not as though you are outside of Him receiving instruction that you follow up on. He moves you into action. He moves. He moves you as your will is surrendered to Him. This is the love of God for poor and helpless, lovely little sheep.
When I point out the word, as I do in these posts, I try to get each one to read it more closely. If one does, they will find something out. They should at least become curious enough to ask Him about the meaning of them rather than take what they already know for granted, as though they have fully understood the meaning already.
For example:
1Jn 1:7 “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
We read ‘but if we walk in the light.’ We already, immediately go Amen! I’m saved and I know it. I got the Spirit. Church was great last Sunday because the Spirit was there. Thank you Lord, I am walking in the light. We then just skim over the next part, ‘as He is in the light.’ Wait a minute! As He is in the light. How is He in the light? I mean, your kidding right? Well there is a contradiction here. Either it can’t be done, and the word is wrong, or the word is right and I haven’t discovered the meaning but just a very little. (Rom 3:4) So you examine yourself to see if you are, if you love Him. If you do sincerely look, it doesn’t take long for you to say that you are not walking in the light as He is in the light. Therefore it can be said that where you are in your experience, is that, you are looking back, comparing with what you know, rather than comparing with what is in front of you to be known. Why, everyone else is doing it! It must be right! Not if you pay attention when you read the word.
Luk 9:62 ‘And Jesus said to him, No one, having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. “
So we look at this next part. I’ll rearrange it a bit, “the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.” That is a strong statement. It means as you walk in the light, His blood cleanses you from all sin, as, and if you don’t obey this, you walk in sin, a.k.a. the flesh! Then you are not pleasing to Him, not that He doesn’t love you.
The next part says, “we have fellowship one with another.” Listen! This is pretty extreme. The daily existence of almost any Christian that you will speak with, will not testify that this is so. And they don’t know how to get there. Do you understand the importance?
Now I like to switch verse seven and verse eight and read. It reads well this way, and delivers the message better.
1Jn 1:5 “ And this is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. “
1Jn 1:6 “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.”
1Jn 1:8 “ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
1Jn 1:7 “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. “
People get tripped up on verse eight. This is another example of not reading the word by facing it head on. They are willing to leave it at this (read verse eight), even take you to Romans 8 and have it out with you. But the condition of having fellowship with Him is clearly spelled out in verse seven, and the results are also plainly declared, plainly, and it is dramatic! So if you don’t measure up to this, you are equal to verse six:
1Jn 1:6 “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. “
Mind you, the brethren don’t mean to be not practicing the truth. They just don’t yet understand it, which the obedient, and willing, will allow Him to call them unto. So, this is why I tell you that the obedience that everyone claims to be true in, is false obedience! I’m sorry. He exacts a tall price from His followers, those who would ‘obey’ unto discipleship. So the question is, do you want to walk in the light “as He is in the light.” Or do you want to follow these not so obviously mundane teachings that are prevalent?
I’ll stop here for the moment.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi guys,
I just came upon an article online that seems to adress some of the strong beliefs that I have. The name of the article is "Lordship Salvation" biblical or heretical? by William Webster.....here is a little of what he says....
The altered message of today has deceived men and women by convincing them that Jesus will gladly be a savior even to those who refuse to follow Him as Lord. It simply is not the truth! Jesus' invitation to salvation is, "Come, follow Me".....practical acknowledgement of Jesus' Lordship, yielding to His rule by following is the very fibre of saving faith.....Believing is obeying. Without obedience, you shall not see life! Unless you bow to Christs scepter you will not see the benefit of Christ's sacrifice. That is just what Jesus said to the ruler. Jesus did not tell the rich young ruler simply to 'believe' in Him. He commanded him to become a disciple. This is Jesus' message in evangelism, a call to discipleship. Thus in Matthew 28:18-20 He is commissioning His disciples to follow His example. It is clear from these passages that Christ taught that salvation requires a committment to Him as Lord....END
I also noticed that John F. MacArthur also has a book out on the same topic ...The Gospel According to Jesus.
It appears that receiving Christ as Lord and committing to obeying Him are synonymous. Another words one cannot say that they have genuinely received Him as Lord if they have no intention on responding to His call of discipleship. If there are those who wish to call this "works" based salvation, then so be it.
Some prefer to call it "doing" what Jesus requires in order to be a disciple of His.
I've noticed that there are those out there who will build up there arguments around Paul's teaching possibly without realizing they are using it to attack Jesus' teachings. Isn't there a potential danger in that? Maybe that potential danger is the very reason that James makes the declaration that faith without works is dead...???
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Grace is giving. You want a definition? Having naturally follows.
This is no definition; this is an abstract idea of a perverted Gospel.
Give some examples of men or women this abstract idea is made a reality in from scripture.
quote:
That is not sitting in the armchair of His love .
You think those that have been martyred for their obedience in not denying the Faith would agree with this heresy you are peddling.
sitting in the armchair and enjoying the show ….
That mentality is pathetic; Yeshua didn’t die so His Church could set back and enjoy the show.
With what I am hearing you say in print, I would say with the Apostle Paul you need to examine yourself and see if you are really in the Faith.
quote:
Are ye saved through faith:
Having salvation, plain and simple, and the works of God, because He died to provide it. What can you do but receive it, and how? By believing. HE did it. You have it by the surrender of belief. It blesses His heart if you will receive it. This is His love for you.
Believing is another one of those words that implies action; the tree does not produce fruit on its own but by the source of life in it.
But in the case of what the scriptures teach every tree does not yield its fruit, Yahweh has made mankind with the ability to choose to produce fruit of righteousness or unrighteousness.
You are trying to get around mankind’s choice and it can’t be done.
It only blesses The Father when His children walk in obedience…
Otherwise there would be no need for correction when they disobey.
Unless the child is really not His and just a bastard!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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becauselyhivs is so funny! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
You deal only with the sovereignty of Yahweh and His finished work.
You never speak of mans responsibility to that finished work.
Man’s responsibility is to walk in the finished work. Having!
GRACE!
“Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. “
By grace:
Which is God doing for you all that needs to be done because you cannot do it for Him. If you could, then you would not need a savior.
Are ye saved through faith:
Having salvation, plain and simple, and the works of God, because He died to provide it. What can you do but receive it, and how? By believing. HE did it. You have it by the surrender of belief. It blesses His heart if you will receive it. This is His love for you.
And that not of yourselves:
Faith! You do not even have it. It says so right here. It is the Gift, of God. The only capacity for faith that any man has is to believe – little old seed faith of belief. If you believe, then He will fill you with the faith of Himself. Believe that? Belief is a choice. Choose to, or not to. Look around you. Everyone chooses one way or the other. Thank God I chose to believe, however it happened.
Not of works:
Do I need to say that again? You cannot add to it by self-effort of trying, or doing. You can live by it, but you cannot add to it. You cannot ‘do’ anything for Him that counts. You can do by Him if He does it. That requires faith, surrender by believing that He does it, and is ‘doing’ it. Notice the difference between ‘for’, and ‘by’.
Lest any man should boast:
As I said, if you could do it by doing, then you could boast. But my Bible says that:
1Co 1:29 “That no flesh should glory in his presence. “ You miss the straight gate and narrow way entirely as long as you try. Everybody wants to work for Him, but He wants to give you His life….. That is how it is. That’s how it is. He isn’t going to let you boast, except in Him.
1Co 1:31 so that, according as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
Grace! Glory be to God in Jesus name, Amen.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Freeinchrist
The Michael Harrison show? It is not a problem at all personally, only I couldn’t understand why it would be seen as such, and why you would say it. I’m not offended. I tried to think about it. I would change something if necessary so that you wouldn’t think that, or explain myself better, if possible. See, I intend to lead your (anyone’s) attention towards Jesus. It is a way of life. It is the only thing to do. Anything short of that and I would be dismayed that I even spoke. So…. (Althtough my name does appear on a few posts.)
Alright. Well. You said it well, that the works come with the territory. What happens though is that something really clogs the pipe for way, way too many people. The works can’t get through. These don’t identify with the Lord properly, through the proper concept of belief, the correctly yielded heart. They go to church and moan and groan wanting this done, and that done. They don’t see it. They go away lusting for things that, quite frankly, stop the flow of God, while He hears them and is so longing, but He can’t. He can’t tell them either. They don’t see it, because they don’t measure up to what He expects, because they don’t know what it means to put Him first. They just don’t offer the right sacrifice.
He expects them to believe and be full (thump on the podium, good and loud!). But they get tripped up under condemnation, trying to earn, thinking that they have to ‘do for Him’, in order to get from Him. That is not sitting in the armchair of His love and enjoying the show.
The devil tells them, “You are not doing this, and you are not doing that,” and bang! There you are under condemnation, then doing what He (Jesus) is not. That works well. Satan loves it. Big time defeat, frustrating the Grace of God.
Grace is giving. You want a definition? Having naturally follows.
not i that lives in me but Christ,so that is the having part right ? See, the question is are you letting Christ live. I am not saying that you are not. But this is how people clog the pipe. They point to that scripture and think that Christ lives cuz the word says so, but in reality they frustrate, and defeat His life in all that they do. There can be no works (or very, very little) if they defeat the very one by whom they live, because, they try to live for Him, and usually very little of that. Understand then, that they themselves live, by reason of this. Therefore, understand, they need to rather, let Him. You have heard of “Let go and let God.” Well, you need to let Him have and do it all. Fully! Come to that place of obedience. Then you can follow. Only then, can you follow, because then He will live. There is no compromise on this point.
I should stop there so that one can assimilate this, but I’ll go on. But this is very important because this is where having is. But it isn’t working because people are clinging to something that they will not let go of. No simpler way can I say it. It could be anything, so they need to find it. It could be a belief. It could be an object, or a goal. Anything. Clinging to something that makes you live.
If Christ is living, not you (yet you are - but by Him) who He is, is what He does. HE is the Word of God. He does the doing. It is why He exists. This slays the flesh! This terminates dead works. The will of God is done on earth as it is in Heaven. Amen!
If Christ is living in you, let Him. Believe that there isn’t anything that He is not absolute Lord of with regard to anything that affects you, with your permission, and He is in you. That means that you don’t have to control it. He does. Learn this. If He is in control of it – then you are not!!! There is no compromise on this. Learn that your emotions are no longer your own. His fill you. You will discover that you have the mind of Christ. You will make decisions that compliment Him, rather than dissent from Him. This is the power of God that delivers, of which it is written, “Sin shall not have dominion over you.” Sin is defeat, falling beneath His will. Sin is quite frankly, short of Him living in you because you override Him by living over Him. He conquered sin by His death on the Cross. The only way He will conquer sin in you is if He lives through you, as you cease interfering by your going on the Cross.
The point is, there is a place of surrender where you will see the salvation of God, and all the promise of Him. You must find what He is looking for.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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Michael Harrison your doctrine, your message is faulty
quote:
Michael Harrison
My message, the most basic premise is based upon Galatians. Replace the word law anywhere in Galations with 'doing'. Replace the word faith with 'having':
Gal 3:12 And the law [doing] is not of faith [having]: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [which he cannot successfully for he will try and fail.]
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law [doing] in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith [having].
That is by promise, which is by believing unto, which is of faith, which is Him manifesting it, which is you thanking Him for it, which is instead of you trying because He is doing it, and you are having it by promise, and without faith it is impossible to please God, which is what this passage is all about:
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Michael Harrison, you can not just make up definition that fit your ideas and think you can be excused for false teaching.
No dictionary anywhere on the planet or in the universe describes "faith" as "having" as you have tried to imply.
Faith is always an action word, it always implies trusting with corresponding action, and faith always implies obedience to someone or something.
Faith of the woman with issue of blood
Faith of centurion soldier
Faith of Peter when Yeshua told him to get out of the boat
Faith of the woman that continually came before the judge
Faith of David with the giant
Faith of Daniel and his commitment to pray no matter what the consequences
Faith of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refusing to go against what was right in Yahweh’s sight
Faith of Noah to build the arc
Faith of Abraham
Faith of Hannah
Faith of Gideon
Faith of Elijah
Faith of Elisha
Faith of Ester
Faith of Mordecai
Faith of the man with the demon possessed son
Faith of the woman with the little girl that said even the dogs eat the crumbs from the masters table……
There are no examples of “Faith” without corresponding action, without an act of obedience, without trusting.
And likewise the Law does not imply ‘doing’ in the verses you named. The Law being referred to be the ceremonial law the Jews had twisted and perverted to make them look holy.
The new birth places the Law of Yahweh in the heart of the believer so they can respond, so they can, obey, before the new birth man or woman have no ability to obey, Paul say we were slaves to sin before “grace” before Yahweh’s divine ability, power, and desire came and made us alive.
But “grace” will not violate a person’s freedom to choose.
Michael Harrison can you, will you give the definition of “Grace” that saves, “grace” that please Yahweh, the New & Old Testament “Grace”?
Move in obedience or disobedience
Move in faith or move in doubt
Move in faith or fear
Move in love or move in hate
But if your are in Yeshua, if you are demonstrating His life you are constantly moving
Faith is not “having” Michael Harrison…
Faith is action on the word of Yahweh, faith is doing the will of Yahweh!…
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for sharing your testimony. It does sound like you've experienced quite a few down and outs. I'm sure most of us have, but not all the same type and degree. I was removed from my parents at age 11 and put in a foster home. My mother was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and my father with grand-mal epilepsy.
You must be about my Dad's age, He is 58. I noticed that nothing was said about your family....your mom and dad, brothers and sisters? Were you ever married? or do you have any children?
I'm not competing with you Michael. I am just trying to figure out how to relate to you. Sometimes it feels difficult because it seems you disagree a lot with others views.....I'm not really sure I even disagree with your stance. I haven't spent my time arguing against your beliefs, I feel that I've spent more time defending my own. I dont believe that our beliefs contradict anymore than faith contradicts love and love contradicts hope, etc. Many of the elements of faith discussed by all of us combined would create a "collage of faith".
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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quote:
Joh 6:28 “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might WORK THE WORKS of God?”
Joh 6:29 “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. “
The works of God come with the territory of having Him as your life. Believe on Him, who He is, what He does, what He is doing. He is the Vine, you are the branch and He works through you.
Michael Harrison. [B]
He works through you only as you yield and obey to His will.
Define “Grace” please, “Grace that saves that is.
You deal only with the sovereignty of Yahweh and His finished work.
You never speak of mans responsibility to that finished work.
The sovereignty of Yahweh and mans responsibility are inseparable twin when it come to Salvation.
MH you are like so many in this day of apostasy, you do not have the right definition of “GRACE” that Saves!
Define “Grace” please, “Grace that saves that is.
MH, You completely missed what Paul is saying in 1st Corinthians 9……
http://books.google.com/books?id=_fY2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=when+i+have+preached+to+others+i+myself+should+be+a+castaway&source=web&ots=ot91svG2Ln&sig=-ubniuWkwh4ZTjhqU3UWfppaE50#PPA177,M1
A.D. 59.] CHAPTER IX. 189
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly ; so fight I, not find some argument for drinking» that shall be a sin to their consciences.
Perhaps the world has furnished no
stronger argument in favour of total
abstinence than the example of the
Grecian Atkktae. It is certain that
their example, the example of men who
wished to accomplish much by bodily
vigour and health, is an effectual and
irrefragable argument against all those
who plead that stimulating drinks are
desirable or necessary in order to increase
the vigour of the bodily frame.
1 But we. We Christians. 1 An incorruptible.
An incorruptible, an
unfading crown. The blessings of
heaven that shall be bestowed on the
righteous are often represented under
the image of a crown or diadem ; a
crown that is unfading, and eternal.
2 Tim. iv. 8. James i. 12. 1 Pet. v. 4.
Bev. ii. 10; iii. 11 ; iv. 4. The doctrine
here taught is, the necessity of
making an effort to secure eternal life.
The apostle never thought of entering
heaven by indolence, or by inactivity.
He urged, by every possible argument,
the necessity of making an exertion to
secure the rewards of the just. His
reasons for this effort are many. Let
a few be pondered.
(1.) The work of
salvation is difficult The thousand
obstacles arising, the love of sin, and
the opposition of Satan and of the
world are in the way.
(2.) The clanger of losing the crown of glory is
great. Every moment exposes it to
hazard, for at any moment we may
die.
(3.) The danger is not only
great, but it is dreadful. If any thing
should arouse man, it should be the
apprehension of eternal damnation and
everlasting wrath.
(4.) Men in this
life, in the games of Greece, in the
career of ambition, in the pursuit of
pleasure and wealth, make immense
efforts to obtain the fading and perishing
object of their desires. Why
should not a man be willing to make
as great efforts at least to secure eternal
glory 1
(5.) The value of the interest
at Blake. Eternal happiness is before those who will embrace the offers of life. If a man should be influenced by any thing to make an effort, should it not be by the prospect of eternal glory ?
What should influence him if this should not '!
26. I therefore so run. In the Christian race; in my effort to obtain the prize, the crown of immortality. I exert myself to the utmost, that I may not fail of securing the crown. l Kot аз uncertainly (aux M\us). This word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It usually means, in the classic writers, obscurely.
Here it means that he did not run as not knowing to what object he aimed. '
I do not run at haphazard ; I do not exert myself for naught ; I know at what I aim, and I keep my eye fixed on the object; I have the goal and the crown in view.'
Probably also the apostle intended to convey this idea, ' I so live and act that I am sure of obtaining the crown. I make it a great and grand point of my life so to live that there may be no room for doubt or hesitancy about this matter. I believe it may be obtained ; and that by a proper course there may be a constant certainty of securing it; and I so 4VE.' О how happy and blessed would it be if all Christians thus lived ! How much doubt, and hesitancy, and despondency would it remove from many a Christian's mind ! And yet it is morally certain that if every Christian were to be only as anxious and careful as were the ancient Grecian wrestlers and racers in the games, they would have the undoubted assurance of gaining the prize. Doddridge and Macknight, however, render this * as not out of view ;' or as not distinguished ; meaning that the apostle was not unseen, but that he regarded himself as constantly in the view of the judge, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I prefer the other interpretation, however, as best according with the connexion and with the proper meaning of the word, t So fight I (¿in-u яття/'а). This word is applied to the boxers, or the pugilists, in the Grecian games. as one that beatcth the air :
27 But I ° keep under my
a Rom.8.13.
The exercise of boxing, or ßghting
with the fist, was a part of the entertainment
with which the enlightened nations of Greece delighted to amuse themselves. ^
Not as one that beateth the air. The phrase here is taken from the habits of the pugilists or boxers, who were accustomed, before entering
the lists, to exercise their limbs with
the gauntlet, in order to acquire greater
skill and dexterity. There was also,
before the real contest commenced, a
play with their flits and weapons, by
way of show or bravado, which was
called (naùfjLà^M, a mock-battle, or a
fighting the air.
The phrase also is applicable to a missing the aim,
when a blow was struck in a real struggle,
and when the adversary would elude
the blow, so that it would be spent in
the empty air. This last is the idea
which Paul means to present He did
not miss his aim ; he did not exert himself
and spend his strength for naught.
Every blow that he struck told; and
he did not waste his energies on that
which would produce no result. He
did not strive with rash, ill-advised, or
uncertain blows ; but all his efforts were
directed, with good account, to the grand
purpose of subjugating his enemy—sin,
and the corrupt desires of the flesh— and bringing every thing into captivity
to God.
Much may be learned from this. Many an effort of Christians is merely beating the air. The energy is expended for naught. There is a want
of wisdom, or skill, or perseverance; there is a failure of plan ; or there is a
mistake in regard to what is to be done,
and what should be done. There is
often among Christians very little aim
or object; tk:>rc is no plan; and the
efforts are wasted, scattered, inefficient
efforts ; so that, at the close of life, many
a man may say that he has spent his
ministry or his Christian course mainly,
or entirely, in beating the air. Besides,
many a one sets up a man of straw, and
fights that. He fancies error and heresy body, and bring it into subjection ; lest that by any mean?, in others, and opposes that. He becomes a heresy-hunter; or he opposes some irregularity in religion that, if left alone, would die of itself; or he fixes all his attention on some minor evil, and devotes his life to the destruction of that alone. When death comes, he may have never struck a blow at one of the real and dangerous enemies of the gospel ; and the simple record on the tombstone of many a minister and many a private Christian might be, ' Here lies one who spent his life in beating the air.'
87. But I keep under my body (Cmnma^ai). This word occurs in the New Testament only here and in Luke xviii. 5, " Lest by her continual coming she weary me." The word is derived probably from vrJaia, the part of die face under the eye (Passow), and means properly, to strike under the eye, either with the fist or the cestus, so as to render the part livid, or as we say, black and blue ; or as is vulgarly termed, to give any one a black eye. The word is derived, of course, from the athletic exercises of the Greeks. It then comes to mean, to treat any one with harshness, severity, or cruelty f and thence also, so to treat any evil inclinations or dispositions or to subject one's-self to mortification or self-denial, or to a severe and rigid discipline, that all the corrupt passions might be removed.
The word here means, that Paul made use of all possible means to subdue his corrupt and carnal inclinations ; to show that he was not under the dominion of evil passions, but was wholly under the dominion of the gospel. Ч And bring it into subjection (í-MK'iyf,-).:,). This word properly means, to reduce to servitude or slavery ; and probably was usually applied to the act of subduing an enemy, and leading him captive from the field of battle ; as the captives in war were regarded as slaves.
It then means, effectually and totally to subdue, to conquer, to reduce to bond- when I have preached to others, I myself should be a cast-away.
age and subjection. Paul means by it,
the purpose to obtain a complete victory
over his corrupt passions and propensities,
and a design to gain the mastery
over all his natural and evil inclinations.
1 Lest that by any means. Note, ver.
22. Paul designed to make every possible
effort to be saved. He did not
mean to be lost, but he meant to be
saved. He felt that there was danger
of being deceived and lost; and he
meant by some means to have evidence
of piety that would abide the trial of
the day of judgment.
l W/t». I have
preached to others. Doddridge renders
this, " lest after having served as a
herald to others, I should myself be
disapproved ;" and supposes that there
was allusion in this to the Grecian
herald, whose business it was to proclaim
the conditions of the games, to
display the prizes, &c. In this interpretation,
also, Macknight, Rosenmüller,
Koppe, and most of the modern
interpreters agree. They suppose, therefore,
that the allusion to the games is
carried through all this description. But
there is this difficulty in this interpretation,
that it represents the apostle as
Imth a herald and a contender in the
games, and thus leads to an inextricable
confusion of metaphor. Probably, therefore,
this is to be taken in the usual
sense of the word preaching in the
New Testament ; and the apostle here
is to be understood as dropping the
metaphor, and speaking in the usual
manner. He had preached to others to many others. He had proclaimed
the gospel far and near. He had
preached to many thousands, and had
been the means of the conversion of
thousands. The contest, the agony,
the struggle in which he had been
engaged, was that of preaching the
gospel in the most effectual manner.
And yet he felt that there was a possibility
that even after all this he might
be lost 1 / myself should be a castaway.
This word (li/oxiMic) is taken
from bad metab, and properly denotes
those which will not bear the lest that is applied to them; that are found to be base and worthless, and are therefore rejected and cast away. The apostle had subjected himself to trials. He had given himself to self-denial and toil ; to persecution and want; to perils, and cold, and nakedness, and hunger. He had done this, among other things, to give his religion a fair trial, to see whether it would bear all these tests ; as metal is cast into the fire to see whether it is genuine, or is base and worthless. In doing this, he had endeavoured to subdue his corrupt propensities, and bring every thing into captivity to the Redeemer, that it might be found that he was a sincere, and humble, and devoted Christian.
Many have supposed that the word " cast-away" here refers to those who had entered the lists, and had contended, and who had then been examined as to the manner in which they had conducted the contest, and had been found to have departed from the rules of the games, and who were then rejected.
But this interpretation is too artificial and unnatural.
The simple idea of Paul is, that he was afraid that he should be disapproved, rejected, cast off; that it would appear, after all, that he had no religion, and would then be cast away as unfit to enter into heaven. From the many remarks which might be made from this interesting chapter, we may select the following : 1 st.
We see the great anxiety which Paul had to save souls. This was his grand purpose; and for this he was willing to deny himself and to bear any trial.
2d. We should be kind to others; we should not needlessly offend them; we should conform to them, as far as it can be done consistently with Christian integrity.
3d. We should make an effort to be saved. O, if men made such exertions to obtain a corruptible crown, how much greater should we make to obtain one that fadeth not away !
4th. Ministers, like others, are m danger of losing their souls.
If Paul CHAPTER X.
TyjOREOVER, brethren, I •"-'-*- would
not that ye should felt this danger, who is there among the ministers of the cross who should not feel it! If Paul was not safe, who is 1.
5th. The fact that a man has preached
to many is no certain evidence that
he will be saved, ver. 27. Paul had
preached to thousands, and yet he felt
that after all this there was a possibility
that he might be lost.
6th. The fact that a man has been
very successful in the ministry is no
certain evidence that he will be saved.
God converts men; and he may sometimes
do it by the instrumentality of
those who themselves are deceived, or
are deceivers. They may preach much
truth ; and God may bless that truth,
and make it the means of saving the
soul. There is no conclusive evidence
that a man is a Christian simply because
he is a successful and laborious preacher,
any more than there is that a man
is a Christian because he is a good
farmer, and because God sends down
the rain and the sunshine on his fields.
Paul felt that even his success was no
certain evidence that he would be saved.
And if Paul felt thus, who should not
feel that after the most distinguished
success, he may himself be at last a cast-away 1
7th. It will be a solemn and awful
thing for a minister of the gospel, and
a successful minister, to go down to
hell. What more fearful doom can be
conceived, than after having led others
in the way to life ; after having described
to them the glories of heaven; after
having conducted them to the " sweet
fields beyond the swelling flood" of
death, he should find himself shut out,
rejected, and cast down to hell ! What
more terrible can be imagined in the
world of perdition than the doom of one
who was once a minister of God, and
once esteemed as a light in the church
and a guide of souls, now sentenced
to inextinguishable lires, while multibe ignorant, how that all our fathers were under • the cloud, and ' all passed through the sea ; o Ei.13.21,22. Num.9.18-u2. »1ÎX.M.1SHH.:«). tudes saved by him shall have gone to heaven ! How fearful is the condition and how solemn the vocation of a minister of the gospel !
8th. Ministers should be solicitous about their personal piety. Paul, one might suppose, might have rested contented with the remarkable manner of his conversion. He might have supposed that that put the matter beyond all possible doubt. But he did no such thing. He felt that it was necessary to have evidence day by day that he wax then a Christian. Of all men, Pau] was perhaps least disposed to live on past experience, and to trust to such experience. Of all men, he had perhaps most reason to trust to such experience; and yet how seldom does he refer to it, how little does he regard it ! The great question with him was, * Am I now a Christian'! am I living as a Christian should now ? am I evincing to others, am I giving to myself daily, constant, growing evidence that I am actuated by the pure principles of the gospel, and that that gospel is the object of my highest preference, and my holiest and constant desire 1 ' 0 how holy would be the ministry, if all should endeavour every day to live and act for Christ and for souls with as much steadiness and fidelity as did the apostle Paul!
CHAPTER X. Iir regard to the design of this chapter commentators have not been agreed. Some have supposed that there is no connexion with the preceding, but that this is a digression.
The ancient Greek expositors generally, and some of the moderns, as Grotius, supposed that the connexion was this : Paul had in the previous chapter described himself as mortifying his flesh, and keeping his body under, that he might gain the prize.
In this chapter they suppose that his object is to exhort the Corinthians to do the same; and that in order to do this, he admonishes them not to be lulled into security by the idea of the '
many spiritual gifts which had been
conferred upon them.
This admonition he enforces by the example of the Jews, who had been highly favoured also,
but who had nevertheless been led into
idolatry.
This is also the' view of
Doddridge, Calvin, and others. Mac-
knight regards the chapter as an independent
discussion of the three questions,
which he supposes had been
submitted to Paul:
(1.) Whether they
might innocently go with their friends
into the heathen temples, and partake
of the feasts which were there made in
honour of the idol.
(2.) Whether they
might buy and eat meat sold in the
markets which had been sacrificed to
idols.
(3.) Whether, 'when invited to
the houses of the heathens, they might
partake of the meat sacrificed to idols,
and which was set before them as a
common meal.—I regard this chapter
as having a very close connexion with
ch. viii. In the close of ch. viii. (ver.
13), Paul had stated, when examining
the question whether it was right to eat
meat offered in sacrifice to idols, that
the grand principle on which he acted,
and on which they should act, was that
of self-denial.
To illustrate this he employs the ninth chapter, by showing how he acted on it in reference to maintenance; showing that it was this principle that led him to decline a support to which he was really entitled. Having illustrated that, he returns in this chapter to the subject which he was discussing in ch. viii. ; and the design of this chapter is further to explain and enforce the sentiments advanced there, and to settle some other inquiries pertaining to the same general subject.
The first point, therefore,
on which he insists is, the danger
of relapsing into idolatry—a danger
which would arise should they be in
the habit of frequenting the temples of
idols, and of partaking of the meats offered in sacrifice, ver. 1—24. Against this he had cautioned them in general, in ch. viii. 7. 9—12. ,
This danger he puts forth by a variety of illustrations. He first shows them that the Jews had been highly favored, had been solemnly consecrated to Moses and to God, and had been under the divine protection and guidance (ver. 1—4) ; yet that this had not kept them from the displeasure of God when they sinned, ver. б. Не shows that notwithstanding their privileges, they had indulged in inordinate desires (ver. 6) ; that they had become idolaters (ver. 7) ; that they had been guilty of licentiousness (ver. 8) ; that they had tempted their leader and guide (ver. 9) ; that they had murmured (ver. 10) ; and that, as a consequence of this, many of them had been destroyed. In view of all this, Paul cautions the Corinthians not to be self-confident, or to feel secure ; and not to throw themselves in the way of temptation by partaking of the feasts of idolatry, ver. 12—14.
This danger he further illustrates (ver. 15. 24) by showing that if they partook of those sacrifices, they in fact became identified with the worshippers of idols. This he proved by showing that in the Christian communion, those who partook of the Lord's supper were identified with Christians (ver. 16,17) ; that in the Jewish sacrifices the same thing occurred, and that those who partook of them were regarded as Jews, and as worshippers of the same God with them (ver. 18); and that the same thing must occur, in the nature of the case, by partaking of the sacrifices offered to idols. They were really partaking of that which had been offered to devils; and against any such participation Paul would solemnly admonish them. ver. 19—22. Going on the supposition, therefore, that there was nothing wrong in itself in partaking of the meat that had been thus killed in sacrifice, yet Paul says (ver. 23) that it was not expedient thus to expose themselves to danger; and that the grand principle should be to seek the comfort and edification of others, ver. 24. Paul thus strongly and decisively admonishes them not to enter the temples of idols to partake of those feasts ; not to unite with idolaters in their celebration ; not to endanger their piety by these temptations.....continued on link listed
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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freeinchrist
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posted
first of all, M.H. it was wrong for me to say in a recent post(michael harrison show) thats was wrong and a sin as far as i see it. please forgive me. i do have a question michael. It is not i that lives in me but Christ,so that is the having part right ?
Posts: 18 | From: michigan,usa | Registered: Oct 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Well, i didn't add to the previous post. I just made a new one here.
Exo 19:8 “And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. “
You have to understand that the law represents all that had to be ‘done’ to be sanctified unto the Lord in those days. This was so that God could be manifest among them. Otherwise, He could not dwell among them. Their faith was in ‘doing’ the law which had been given, so that He could bless them with Himself.
There was a day coming though, wherein He would dwell in them, instead of among them:
Heb 8:11 “And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.”
And they shall really know me, it says! How, by doing for Him? Not: By having Him in the sanctification of the Spirit through circumcision of the heart. That means who He is, and what He does. That means, doing is by Him. He does, you benefit.
You see, we think we know Him, and we do! However, He is calling us to a place where we ‘really’ know Him. For some reason, we assume that we already do to His satisfaction. Yet the word points out to us that something is amiss, and we all continue ‘doing’ what we do, thinking we are pleasing Him, trying. All the while we are ignoring the beseeching word that doesn’t make sense to us, which would point something out to us if we would let it. For whatsoever doth make manifest is light. That is the purpose of it, the word.
We all use certain terminology to describe these faith things. One such is to say that He substituted for you on the cross. Right! Well, you leave off part of it. You think that He died so that you could be accepted, and many are flat pleased with that, end of discussion; but you are baptized into His death, and raised with Him from the dead, which means, He died on the cross in your place, so that he could live in your place, together, for you and with you. He doesn’t accept you. He changes you, creates you anew. (But the old man within doesn’t yet get it and must be broken.)
So, on that note, so many think that He imputes righteousness! That’s what the word says, but what they don’t understand is that He is righteousness. So He imputes Jesus!
Let me put it like this. What does God do? He completes you! Therefore, you live by Him, but there is a condition to realizing it in its fullness! It is a condition of obedience by submission, which happens whenever you acknowledge His presence in your heart and let Him be in control of it all, an act of your heart and will. Until then you are not Spirit led, but rather grieve the Spirit by frustrating Him, tying His hands if you will, by walking in the flesh. Oh, it seems spiritual. Well, He knows that you are well meaning, but….You are not listening. He says “Be still and know that I am God.”
Jesus had this relationship with the Father:
Joh 5:19 “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. “
He follows after. He is Spirit led. He doesn’t initiate anything trying to please the Father.
But trying is self will, not submission.
Rom 4:4 “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt,”
i.e. ‘doing’, ‘trying’ to do the will of God instead of believing for the will of God to be done in their life is leading, not following.
Looking again at:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by [having] without the deeds of [doing]. It isn’t that anything goes undone. This is how it gets done. It is beyond you in that you are having His will done in your life by looking to the one who IS doing it all; to whom the glory belongs, for no flesh shall glory in His presence. So trying is robbing God.
1Co 1:29 “That no flesh should glory in his presence,” which is self determination.
So the only requirement to see it in effect is to let Him, by faith, be in control of it all, and follow. I said it before, and I’ll say it again, this is your cross. It cannot happen if you do not first believe that He is in you.
“Thy will be done in earth, as in heaven.” Really learn what ‘all’ means. He will show you if you ask.
Joh 6:28 “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might WORK THE WORKS of God?”
Joh 6:29 “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. “
The works of God come with the territory of having Him as your life. Believe on Him, who He is, what He does, what He is doing. He is the Vine, you are the branch and He works through you.
Who or what do you identify with? Everyone without exception identifies with someone or something. Behold our justification, that is, if we can identify with Him! We are not justified separate from Him but in Union with Him are we justified – by His life in us, and His working. This comes by faith, which is believing, which is a – choice. Choose to believe.
What am I saying? He loves you and wants to pour out upon you more than you can ask or even think. But He doesn’t have you, and He cannot. He does not want you to work for Him. He wants to work for you. It is called His Gift! It is His hearts biggest desire. He died for this and you won’t let Him.
I’ll talk about the Lord’s Prayer next time, I think. “Deliver us from Evil.”
I almost forgot. So how do you appropriate it? Awwww! You are still looking for something to ‘do’. He will appropriate it if you let Him do it all. Could ‘all’ possibly also mean ‘appropriation’? Until you stop, you will not see Him. If He doesn’t have your attention, how will you see His salvation?
Charles Trumbull wonderfully says it like, “It is not in asking, but in thanking, not in praying, but praising.” You have because He died to give.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
You illustrate well what i have been saying! You are reading the text as something to 'do', not as a revelation of who Jesus is to you. If you will read the whole chapter nine of Corinthians you will see that the reason that he beat his body, and worried about being a castaway was because the body of Christ had a hard time swallowing him, and what he was saying about grace. He worried about being a reject because they wouldn't listen. This passage about beating his body is his illustration of the circumstances of his life, in preaching the word of truth.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
So we understand that:
1Co 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. “
Michael Harrison, do you think you are more walking in the Spirit than the Apostle Paul…
Paul understood more about walking in the Spirit than an individual with the exception of Yeshua Himself the Church has ever encountered.
But Paul also understood the old man (the flesh) is ever present and must be kept under control by how Paul said …. “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” -- I Cor. 9:27.
MH, we also understand that:
Romans 7… 22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Your understanding stinks…..
That’s as kind as I can be!
Your message is one that makes the Christian experience some kind of mystical magic mobo jumbo..
Instead of practical living.
Just plain take up your cross and follow me "Yeshua said"...
Death to self that Yeshua may live.
Faith is all about Yeshua, He did His part, but He did not do our part.
Trust, obey, love, Him
All the Israelites had to do to have the death angel pass over was obey putting the Blood on the door post and stay inside.
All Noah and His family had to do was obey what Yahweh said, build the boat, get inside and He would do the rest.
But you can’t get away from the obedience part on any thing Yahweh has said.
Every promise Yahweh has every given has a conciliation!!!!!!!
If you think I am wrong quote me your evidence from the Scriptures!
This subject is so important I will not let it go.
Eternity is at stake for multitudes people like you are lying to!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Bear with me sis. I will add to this post. It will be my joy, but right now i will comment just a little:
quote:
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" 1John 2:6
How? By doing? I know you said
quote:
"AND DO those things that are pleasing in His sight."
But it is by 'having'. I will elaborate by editing this post shortly.
quote:
I understand that as far as salvation is concerned, there is nothing I could do to earn it, BUT
You have to ask yourself what is salvation? It is a whole package! It includes all that He has done, and is doing on your behalf. If I tell you I am going to give you five dollars and I lay it on the table, will you have to 'do' something? You will have to pick it up, maybe, to assimilate it. It is yours, but to 'have' it, you will have to pick it up, or at least acknowledge to yourself that it is yours. Belief is like that.
If I tell you that you have to climb this ladder and pick it up over there off of the shelf, you will have had to work for it. This is not a good illustration because even to pick it up off the table is to work for it, sorta. But if I put it in your hand, you have it. It is yours! So the question is how do you appropiate it?
quote:
So MH, do you love Father God? I know you believe(have faith) and have recieved salvation thru Father Gods only begotten Sons sacrifice, but how do you personally exercise such Faith?
I'll be back on this! God bless, and thanks for the question!! ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
quote:
Does it not say that the Father judges each ones work?
Did Jesus work? Some may argue yes! But He says Himself that His Father doeth the works. Then the Father judges what the Father did. Here is what is important:
- Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus believed and received. That is our work also. It is always in the present tense, now! Reread: "This is the work of God, that ye believe." Not 'do'. Again, I will say more on this by editing this post.
Do you "keep His commandments?" Some will say you can't. Jesus says you can.
Do you love your brother? Really? You can't think of anyone you are spiteful towards, jealous or envious of? John says that you are in the darkness if you do not, and cannot know God. What is he then talking about? After all, he is talking to saved quote, unquote, people. Well, he means that they are not in the fullness of the light, the relationship that Jesus longs for. He is indicating that they should look for something more that they haven't found. Jesus says in Revelation that they are 'lukewarm'. Here is a problem, people who think that they are on fire, are not yet, as they think that they are. There is something more that makes them complete in Him, and rather than searching for it, they set out to 'do', which is in "superfulity of zeal." Times up. I'll be back.
Yeshua Bless!
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yahsway
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posted
MH, how do you exercise your faith?
read 1Peter 1:15-17
Notice 17
Does it not say that the Father judges each ones work?
I understand about believing and recieving Messiah Yeshua.
I understand that as far as salvation is concerned, there is nothing I could do to earn it, BUT
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" 1John 2:6
"And whatever we ask we recieve from Him, because we Keep His commandments AND DO those things that are pleasing in His sight."
"Whoever believes that Yeshua is the annointed One is born of Yahweh God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God AND Keep His commandments.
For this is the LOVE of God, that we Keep His commandments. And His commandments are not Burdensome."
So MH, do you love Father God? I know you believe(have faith) and have recieved salvation thru Father Gods only begotten Sons sacrifice, but how do you personally exercise such Faith?
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Michael Harrison
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posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
i don't keep this post going. I just reply to replies. Isn't that how it works? And why saith thou to me thateth thou thinketh tis the michael show. My words focuseth one upon Jesus, who He is, and what He does! Yet thou hearest not these sayings, and do what you want to do, which is what Cain did. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
That was fun! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
________________________________________
verse 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. This is NOT talking about born again believers. "Those that ARE IN the flesh" characterizes peoples very nature AND is a stronger description than the activity of WALKING in the flesh. The phrase therefore refers to UNBELIEVERS "who cannot please God."
________________________________________
Incorrect! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif) It is in fact talking about born again believers. You can take what you heard b4 Jesus and reapply it now. It filters out you, so that Jesus can be seen, by you, if by nobody else (but he will be). Even unbelief in the believer is that which cannot 'please God'. Therefore, the call to repent is repeated until unbelief is is fully repented of, until Jesus is your heart, not rather, standing aside there in your heart somewhere waiting on you to acknowledge Him. See you are comparing yourself with those behind you, instead of He who is ahead of you.
quote:
________________________________________
quote:
We are actively to work at growing in holiness and "putting to death" any sin in our hearts or minds, as well as in our words and deeds.
________________________________________
Wrong! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif) Trying will only fail, ever! You cannot by trying, but by having, and walking in it, if you will receive it. How do you receive it? By believing (which is repenting). The only faith given man is the capacity to believe. Thereafter, all faith is His faith, meaning, of Jesus, in real time, like helium in a balloon. Starter faith is the grain of mustard seed faith, which is belief. From that grows the tree of who you become after Him, the Kingdom of God in you (Mark 4:30~4:32)! If the seed is germinated by belief, the seed grows. Seed faith is belief from within the heart, towards Him. Never mind all the talk about seed-faith that is out there.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Belief is a choice! You choose to, or not to believe, and His faith imparted is your reward.
My message, the most basic premise is based upon Galatians. Replace the word law anywhere in Galations with 'doing'. Replace the word faith with 'having':
Gal 3:12 And the law [doing] is not of faith [having]: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [which he cannot successfully for he will try and fail.]
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law [doing] in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith [having].
That is by promise, which is by believing unto, which is of faith, which is Him manifesting it, which is you thanking Him for it, which is instead of you trying because He is doing it, and you are having it by promise, and without faith it is impossible to please God, which is what this passage is all about:
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Christians who are thinking that they are spiritual are walking in the flesh if they have not, thru faith, found their way to the head, meaning they have not sought the Lord to put first the thing that He wants them to put first:
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Therefore they can be said to wander in the wilderness of the 'flesh'. They are short of His desire for them. They still have a veil over their heart, even as Paul said of the Hebrews.
[/list]
"Unbelievers" still characterizes believers whose faith is not yet made perfect because of the stubbornness of the flesh! Every epistle is about this.
I am not disputing your assertion concerning the completely unsaved. I am saying that Paul's epistles are written to believers, about believers, though they apply to the unsaved in the same way.
Rom 7:19 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
That i do, because i try but fail thereby.
Rom 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
They are in the flesh by nonbelief in the promise, and power of God who delivers from the evil that you cannot deliver yourself from by trying.
Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
For who to be carnally minded? The Christian.
Rom 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Fulfilled! Get the dictionary. That sounds like a choice! Flesh is what? It is a vail that separates us from His presence, which vail is done away with when the heart turns to Christ..... The flesh is all that comprises that which realizes us separate from Him in union wherein we have fellowship with Him through faith of the operation of God.
Jesus is Real! Get ahold. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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yahsway
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and what does it mean to be carnally minded?
what does it mean to walk according to the flesh?
To walk according to the flesh is to follow the sinful desires of ones old life.
To walk according to the Spirit is to follow the desires of the Holy Spirit, to live in a way pleasing to Him.
verse 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. This is NOT talking about born again believers. "Those that ARE IN the flesh" characterizes peoples very nature AND is a stronger description than the activity of WALKING in the flesh. The phrase therefore refers to UNBELIEVERS "who cannot please God."
Paul lays out 2 directions of life and their consquences.
We are actively to work at growing in holiness and "putting to death" any sin in our hearts or minds, as well as in our words and deeds.
But it is only by the Spirit that we can succeed in doing so.
Paul is giving encouragement in verse 14 NOT to live according to th flesh, BUT to put to death the deeds of the body. The more fully people are led by the Spirit, the more completely will they be OBEDIANT to God and be conformed to His Holy standards.
This leading is not to be restricted to objective knowledge of the commands of scripture and conscious efforts to obey them, though it most certainly includes that, but rather it more fully includes the subjective factor of being sensitive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit thruout the day, which will never encourage one to act contrary to scripture.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Michael Harrison
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My Life?
Thanks yo! No offense taken.
You ask me what I’ve done. Is that the Kingdom of Heaven? Will you compare with me, for I am certainly not the standard? There is one who is. See Him there, the twinkle in His eyes, crows-foot wrinkles in the corner because of His gracious smile, obviously heartily backed up with a hugely joyous, amused, embracing, and overflowing heart. He doesn’t compare you with others. See, it is not the Kingdom of Competition. It is the Kingdom of Service. The least shall be the greatest (Luke 9:48).
You ask what He has done in my life. If he has done nothing but deliver me from sin, preserve my spirit in perfect peace, and reveal His presence, then He has done a phenomenal, a staggering amount already. Do you have that testimony? For many have the distress of days which they describe as resulting from clouds hiding His face. He does not intend it to be so, little ones. He has provided better for you than to work for Him and to fear His wrath; to fail and to fear His condemnation. His joy is not in seeing you tremble and quake as you seek how to please Him, and fear whether you obeyed! He has made it so simple.
Do I have adversity? Do i have choices? Not too many in this free society are facing such an unsettling threat as I. I’m not sure whether to elaborate yet. But a direct result are things that manifest themselves in some ugly, mischaracterizing, misrepresentative ways in daily life. Some things go horribly wrong recently. Unbelievably, some of the worst of the worst of it comes from the very brethren.
As a result of the outset of this adversity, I came to a decision not to long ago to set out and “Feed the sheep,” which I am called unto by nature of revelation of the fact of knowing. Some would taunt me and say, “So you decided to obey?” Well, yes! You have to understand though, any who want to obey, that, you build a house from the ground up. That is, you build it from the foundation, up: You obey from the top down. If you don’t get the top tier first, nothing happens beneath. Many are trying to obey without getting the engine in front of the box cars. Therefore they don’t realize what they should, first in their own spirit, then in whatever comes next, because they don’t do the first thing first. I’ll come back to that someday.
So I started to say that, I did as this following scripture ‘commands’:
Luk 18:28 “Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
Luk 18:29 “And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, “
Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.”
You might wonder at the outset whether my train is in order after reading this, but the results are in His hand. I don't necessarily see them, should you? Nevertheless, if you are in the will of God, you might encounter resistance. Anybody been there?
Let me tell you a story momentarily, of packing the belongings and setting out to minister wherever, however I could. First i'll say that what happened to set me on this course was that an extremely adverse situation occurred which left me without a dwelling place in 2000. This caused me to consider my direction anew. So then I focused on education with the hope of bettering what I knew, for more money, not that what I had was bad. I hadn't gotten it yet, that i should set out.
I did this education stint also, partly to distract me from stinging misfortune of having been set upon by a treacherous tribe of individuals, who meant me serious harm, which is with me to this day, seven years later. I was distraught; yet the undercurrent of peace was stronger and by far bigger, and wonderfully unfailing. Anyway, someday I may explain it better. In the meantime I came to realize that I had cast away my life laboring for the meat which perisheth (John 6:27). All along I've had the desire to relate things of the Kingdom of God more widely. I focused rather upon whatever meager job was at hand, and the income. I, for boredom, after proving to myself whether I could do it, had many i'm afraid.
So, there is so much that I could say, but I want to focus on this small part about getting thrown in jail by a man claiming to be a Spirit Filled Christian.
I had an inclination to go out into the country to visit churches, and whatever, so i did. My first advent was to go to New Orleans after the hurricane, not knowing what I would do. I had worked in Florida after Hurricane Andrew, and thought I could be of use also in Louisiana. I have skills in construction trades, plus a couple of other things. Do you know, not for a lack of skill, but for some strange aberration in the fabric of life as I have known it prior to now, I was rejected by three ministries. It is pretty strange if you offer free labor to help a troubled area in the time of need and you are asked to leave three different places. You figure it out.
I am a Christian man, with the heart of God, and at the same time a reject. I wasn’t preaching. I was just fellowshipping and offering my skills. It is a long story. One of a few such. One of those to cast me away though, the last one, was Operation Blessing, of Pat Robertson’s 700 Club. I state this in prelude to my next story of adversity.
So, when I return to my hometown, I visited a newly established fellowship in South Carolina. This was on the property which used to belong to the PTL Club, with Jim and Tammy Baker and all.
But first, here is how my life was, as a Christian man, having stepped out on faith, after being caught in the crunch of something that I did not ordain, having no financial resources, I was gathering scrap metal to purchase fuel and food to be mobile. I had a homemade camper which I was pulling, which is where I was staying. (I still am.) Since scrap metal did not pay for campgrounds, I have managed in other ways.
But on this particular day I had attended fellowship at this newly established location of some people claiming the Spirit of God, and good will towards men (But not me). As I said, it was situated on the property which used to be PTL Club. Since I had visited there when they were robust as PTL, and my being a Christian, I felt, in its afterlife, a part of it still. But it had a new owner; a property developer with a cold heart.
I mentioned that I was collecting scrap metal, a very low paying affair. Neither did I trespass, or break-and-enter to get it. In this wealthy society, it is around because people discard it regularly. And I have inquired of people who were tearing out equipment for discarding, as they remodeled buildings, gone into dumpsters, you know, walked the highways. Well, suffice it to be said, there are creative ways to do this if one knows where to look, and what to look for. In fact i could make a living off of the landfill, with the Lord's help, if i could gain access.
In this infamous day I had left the Church, which was in the buildings which remained after the defunct PTL. Oh, and lest I forget to mention, I inquired of those responsible for such a decision, if I could pull from the Church’s dumpster, those things from which I could glean the copper and aluminum, which they were throwing away as they remodeled. Theiranswer was that they were throwing nothing away and they refused me.
Mat 10:42 “And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.”
You thought this passage was talking about the drunks?
Anyway, I left there for other parts of the former PTL grounds which were under development for homes, and ministries, camping and such. I discovered copper in the rubble of demolished buildings and set to gathering it. Mind you, I didn’t ask. However, few men on earth would have accused me of stealing, as this man did, and put me into jail, where I had never been in my life; especially a man calling himself Christian. This man did, and followed it through to the day in court where judgment was made against me. It cost me all the money I had in my pocket, roughly $400.00, which still left me with onehundred some odd, which was tithe money, God’s money. My own was sucked away, the only that I had to my name. Plus I was under a cloud, feeling more highly scrutinized thereafter, making it difficult to continue.
Rather than drag this story out at this point, I will mention this, that there are passages in Timothy and Corinthians about how the rich abuse the brethren, and this man was very rich. There also are passages in the Old Testament about leaving the corners of the field for the poor and travelers to glean. In doing what I did, where I did, I felt in God’s Grace, yet I saw the first time ever in jail. I had my money taken from me there and reissued to me in a prison system check, which I had to embarrassingly carry to my bank to cash. Now I have a record with fingerprints and a mug shot, me a Commandment preaching Christian, who loves the Lord, who set out to do whatever.
It is a Tsunami to me. I am turned over, spun around, and holding my breath as the wave pounds me, trying to knock the life out of me, and this in a free country. What must it be like to challenge the powers that be in a less fortunate land, by witnessing to Jesus?
This story could go on. Needless to say, there are some thoughtless readers who will delight in pounding on me after they read this. But because Grace stands firm, I stand firm in the Joy of the Lord.
So what should my life look like? Do you have a pattern or a mold? Shall i consult you? But for now, Peace!
Now, let me add to that the smallest of things. I have since been to California, thinking maybe i was being led there. I had six hundred dollars when i left and went via Missouri. At one point i was at Las Vegas with five dollars fifty cents in my pocket and an empty tank. I had a choice; go in and gamble my five, or put gas in the tank and drive. I put it in the tank, not knowing if i would be sitting on the side of the road with no hope, within ten minutes. Do you know, that five miles down the road, some debris was on the side of the road, which i recycled, and made the next leg of the journey. That's how it is!
Charles Trumbull says that "Life fairly teems with evidence of what He will do."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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freeinchrist
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posted
i am with daniel on this one. i don't think michael will answer it tho. it seems to me that its the michael harrison show or something. no offense michael..
Posts: 18 | From: michigan,usa | Registered: Oct 2007
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oneinchrist
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posted
Hi Michael,
Am I judging you because I ask you to share what Christ has done in your life? Your message seems to be that there are those who are "doing", but should be "having." Assumably, you have been "having" and Christ has been doing the "doing" part for a long time now. So what are some of these things in the past 30+ years that He has been doing? I would think that you would be exited to share, but it seems that you are offended by my asking. Your story is your story. It does not have to match Pauls, or Peters, or Johns or mine. I am certainly no one to judge what God has or hasn't done in your life. I would just like to hear in your own words how God has touched your life, and the lives of people you have come in contact with. Has the Lord help you restore any relationships? Has the Lord helped you overcome any addictions? Does the Lord have you ministering to a specific people?....for example: prison ministry, the elderly, young children, poverty stricken, kids without parents,drug-addicts, alcoholics, etc.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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posted
Someone replied. I responded. So:
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Paul no doubt, did a lot over the course of his lifetime, however, he spent a lot of time in prison. Some stiff-necked individuals seemed to have a problem with that and resisted his council publicly, as though he gave not the word of the Lord, in truth. So I ask you, did he?
Php 1:16 “The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:"
I suppose that these thought that, if he were really preaching the ‘word of God’, that he would not be abandoned by God to be left in prison. They were of course – better, than Paul, better in council, higher and mightier in the sight of God in their own estimation, therefore also of men also whom they supposed themselves to enlighten.”
Will you compare with me?
2Co 10:12 “For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.”
So then, what matters most? Did he not say that that:
1Co 1:27 “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; “
If so, will you use my life as a gage, or the conviction of the Holy Spirit, who is in the words you have heard?
And if God raises me up, will you then listen?
How many times did He send a prophet to Israel saying to them that they were a stiffnecked people; that they turned their backside rather than their face?
I am but a foolish thing. Will you hear if i am a great preacher, with a doctorate? Would to God that they even, would listen. Amen!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I notice that you are pounding away with the same message that you have been all along. You are consistent. You feel very strongly about what you are trying to express. So for so many years now Christ has been living in and expressing His life through you. I do want to believe that is the case Michael.....but I want to hear from you how this has changed you as a person and how it has changed the way that you look at life. I would like to hear some of the things that you give credit to Christ for in your life......besides being saved from sin. How has Jesus helped you touch other lives? Please share with us so that we can see what is the cause of your strong conviction.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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The revelation may be in you, without your being in the Revelation.
2 Timothy 3:16 (Your call out) Though there is instruction in the Bible, the Bible should not be viewed as an instruction manual. It is a revelation, period. Either you have, and are in the revelation of Him, or you are not! Therefore you should seek, and not be satisfied until…. This is why He says to “Seek and ye shall find.” Also that, “The Spirit will guide you in all truth.” If your obedience comes out of you as one who does not know what it means to be baptized into His death, which is Paul and the epistles, then all you produce is dead works, for you cannot understand being baptized into His death. This means that you live, not Christ, and your well intended obedience is unto dead works:
Rom 8:7 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” This verse shows why you need to:
Rom 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may PROVE what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
So we understand that:
1Co 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. “
Therefore, though it is a hard saying, you IIPeter 3:16 “wrest the scriptures to your destruction.” Literally! Not that you will not be saved, for:
1Co 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. “
In other words, when you think you understand, do you? For scripture says that satan masquerades as an angel of light, meaning that he can look and sound like the truth, and there is no shortage of that out there. Sincerity is not enough! It is a dead work. Well meaning and good intentions are a fact of almost all denominations, but it is fruitless. If they thought not themselves well meaning, they would not be there. Some however, will dig down to the Pearl of Great Price, getting past their ‘good intentions’. There is a secret place in Christ that you will only find if you turn it all over to Him. Have you? You cannot know being led of the Spirit until you do, and if you die right now, will you have to explain to Him how that you operated from the ‘pride of self’ in trying to please Him, certain that ‘you’ were right.
Romans 1:5
It is through Him that we have received grace (God's unmerited favor) and [our] apostleship to promote obedience to the faith and make disciples for His name's sake among all the nations,
There is a Baptist obedience to the faith, and they can demonstrate it (sorry if I step on any toes). But there is a Spirit obedience that they cannot know, because they do not know what obedience is except by a carnal mind. It is the same for anyone claiming to ‘do’ what He says.
Joh 5:39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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Hebrews 12...
6For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes.
7You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline?
8Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].
9Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live?
10For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness.
11For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness--in conformity to God's will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God].
MH, Again I will point you to Yeshua's words...
Matthew 5:19 (Amplified Bible)
19Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
MH you try to make the message of Yeshua something it is not…
Yeshua said “whosoever shall do and teach them”
Acts 16:1
AND [Paul] went down to Derbe and also to Lystra. A disciple named Timothy was there, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer [she had become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and the Author of eternal salvation, and yielded obedience to Him]; but [Timothy's] father was a Greek.
Romans 1:5
It is through Him that we have received grace (God's unmerited favor) and [our] apostleship to promote obedience to the faith and make disciples for His name's sake among all the nations,
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)?
Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
1 Corinthians 8:3
But if one loves God truly [ with affectionate reverence, prompt obedience, and grateful recognition of His blessing], he is known by God [ recognized as worthy of His intimacy and love, and he is owned by Him].
The scriptures are given to the Church so we may learn obedience … study, show yourselves workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Truth....
…2 Timothy 3:16
Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),
The apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers given to the Church to instruct, mature the Body into the full stature of Yeshua.
When a person is Born Again, they aren’t instantly transformed into this obedient child of Yahweh!
You can philosophy all you like about being like Yeshua but the simple truth is just as a natural child grows and matures into obedient sons and daughters, so does the spiritual sons and daughters.
Obedience and doing Yahweh’s will come as we yield to the Spirit of Truth.
Ephesians 4...
6One God and Father of [us] all, Who is above all [Sovereign over all], pervading all and [living] in [us] all.
7Yet grace (God's unmerited favor) was given to each of us individually [not indiscriminately, but in different ways] in proportion to the measure of Christ's [rich and bounteous] gift.
8Therefore it is said, When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive [He led a train of vanquished foes] and He bestowed gifts on men.
9[But He ascended?] Now what can this, He ascended, mean but that He had previously descended from [the heights of] heaven into [the depths], the lower parts of the earth?
10He Who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest).
11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him......
.....17So this I say and solemnly testify in [the name of] the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the heathen (the Gentiles) do in their perverseness [in the folly, vanity, and emptiness of their souls and the futility] of their minds.
18Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature].
19In their spiritual apathy they have become callous and past feeling and reckless and have abandoned themselves [a prey] to unbridled sensuality, eager and greedy to indulge in every form of impurity [that their depraved desires may suggest and demand].
20But you did not so learn Christ!
Colossians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)
8See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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MH, Im your Sister and better to grin than to frown!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Michael Harrison
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Amen brother. Shalom! You do make me grin!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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yahsway
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MH, no accident indeed! Much like the Hebrew Gematria. Yes, I know it and have studied it in the past.
Its funny, Hebrew letters are 22 plus 4 jots and titles amking 26 in the hebrew alphabet.
The Aleph/Taw or Greek Aplha/Omega is written down in the origonal Hebrew scripts of the Tanach, virtually all the way thru the entire Old Test, and Many Hebrew sages and scholars scratch their heads till this day wondering what that symbol means.
Of course as believers we KNOW WHO that symbol is referring to. Truley they have scales on their eyes much like Paul had on his before his conversion.
Yes, I love this stuff too as I believe there is so much "SOD" (hebrew word for deeper meanings) in the scriptures than we could ever possibly fathom.
But to be sure Yeshua is all thru the scriptures from Gen-Rev. Its a seamless Book, Amen? Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Michael Harrison
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What’s in a name? I enjoy that kind of stuff, I really do. I find it interesting, but I have a reference of my own that I draw on: Theomatics. I am often stunned that people who hear of this do not know the significance of its meaning, or the value of its discovery. They don’t have a clue. One man even told me that they do this stuff just for the money. I will tell you that what is in this book is part of what makes my life richer.
If you don’t know what Theomatics is, it is the study of the numeric patterns that result from taking the bible texts, which were written in the slang, the spoken Greek of Jesus’ day, (which is where we get our translations from) by translating the alpha letters to their corresponding numeric value. Only the Bible does this consistently straight forward. If there is any defect in the manuscript, the pattern breaks down. This literally is useful as an acid test for whether we have the original fluency preserved in the text that we call Holy.
The powerful aspect that I am drawn to for the sake of this conversation is that the Greek value for Jesus is 888. Think of a music scale. There are seven letters within; A,B,C,D,E,F,G. Do, Rey, Me, Fa, So, La, Tea, Do. Did you ever sing that in school? In playing a scale, the seven (God’s perfect number) notes of the scale are played, and the scale is completed by playing the first note again. It comes full circle in order to sound complete. The last note, the only one that is repeated, is the Eighth note. Seven is God’s perfection, eight is the new beginning. Jesus is 888, hence we have the Alpha, and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
In describing the way that Theomatics works, as a practical matter of discovery, the following paragraph from the text of the book is used:
"The name for Jesus in Greek is Iesous, and it has a theomatic value of 888.This number is extremely significant throughout the theomatic design of the Bible, and later in this chapter we will discuss its significance in full. At this point, however, there is only one important fact that you the reader must remember, and that is the following: The many references to Christ in the Bible are all structured around the number 888."
It is no accident, this name.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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yahsway
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MH, really? I know they call Him Jehovah but that is not a good translation. It means the God of destruction.
There are many gods as that is simply a title. Just like the word lord. also a title, we know that for Yeshua is called the King of kings and Lord of lords. Theres many "lords" in England ya know.
Also in scripture Prov 30:4 the question is asked about our God, "What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?"
But I like Yeshuas prayer in John 17 where he states in verse 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given me out of the world...
So whats in a name? a lot. God changed Jacobs name to Israel, Abrams name to Abraham, Yeshua re-named Simon Bar-Jonah to Peter, ect..
And each of these names mean something.
You know you can be talking to a Muslim and they refer to Allah as god. Thats why we have this controversy going on now where people for example President Bush who stated that we (meaning christians) worship the same God as the Muslims just for the simple fact that they refer to allah as God. But we know that we do NOT worship the same God.
God is not a name, it is a title. Thats why I prefer to identify the God I do worship. And He has a name. YHWH (Yod-hey-waw-hey) Yahweh.
But most of the time I call Him Father/Abba.
In the encyclopedia americana 1945 edition says under the topic "God"
"God (god) Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being."
The Jews call Him "HaShem" meaning "The Name". They verbally call Him God but will only spell it G-d for respect for the name as they say. But God is not a name, it is a title for there are many gods.
Why was the Sanhedrin upset with Paul? In Acts we read where they said"Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on tis name? Remember Yeshuas words that He came in His Fathers Name?
The man who gave us the hybrid word "Jehovah" was Petrus Galantinus. The letter "J" didn;t even exist on the plant until about 1520 CE. The letter is less than 500 years old.
"J" came from the letter Yod and was brought into the Greek with the letter "IOTA" or our letter I since the Greeks had no "Y".
Yeshuas name was given to His earthly patrents by the messanger Gabriel because He would SAVE His people from their sins.
The Hebrew term for "save" is SHUA, while the Greek term is SOTER and the Latin is SALVARE. So why do we see the name JESUS written in our English translations?
If you stop 50 people coming out of a church service and ask them what the name of the Creator of the Universe is you will probably hear God, Lord, but these are titles, not names.
Jeremiah 23:25-
verse 26 "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deciet of their own heart,
v27 "who try to make My people FORGET MY NAME by their dreams which every one tells his neighbor, as their fathers FORGOT MY NAME for BAAL (Baal means Lord)
Baal, Lord, Dagon, worshipped by the babylonians, calling him Lord. This was at the time the Jews would not pronounce the Name of God preferring to call Him Adonai(My Lord).
They forgot His name.
Why would we have names meaning something such as Adam, Eve, Abraham, ect.. and the The Creator simply gets a title along with the other pagan gods? That doesn't make sense.
Salvation is in His name. Rev 19 says "And His name Is called the Word of God. The word of Yahweh. John says that In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
In the beginning was Yeshua, and Yeshua was with Yahweh and Yeshua was Yahweh. He was in the beginning with Yahweh.
If you read in Gen where the children of Israel had to pick up their "quota" of manna for each day, in the strongs the word "quota" from the hebrew meaning is "word". Wow, what a revelation. There is so much to glean from here.
The word made flesh, the manna from heaven, from the Father whose name means to save.
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Michael Harrison
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A Jehova's W recently gave me the same sermon on the name of Jesus, encapsulated in a message that God has a name. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
I talked to a Mormon recently. They talked more about Jesus than i've heard. They've ramped it up become more appealing (deceptive). By the way. i call them More On's ov latter day pranks! The other i call joke of a witness. I don't know if i am wrong, but it is soooo funny!
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yahsway
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Wow MH, a JW, where would you get that idea?
By the way, Im not a SDA either.
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Michael Harrison
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That was pleasant yahsway! I was beginning to think you were a Jehovah's Witness
Believe me when i say this: I have persecutions that i cannot even speak of, and wish i could. I have trials just like the next guy. I stepped on a nail the other day! I am belittled and harassed. I blow it sometimes. But something I know now, is that the negatives are calling cards for the one who is positive, who is in me, who has a manifestation of Himself prepared. I can react, or i can yield, with praise and thanksgiving. Reacting is not bearing the cross.
Definition: Bearing the Cross, in the simplest statement, is when you die to what you want, and live to what Jesus wants (a critical moment of deliberate decision). It cannot be said more simply. This, of course, involves His accepting His whole plan. You cannot hold back anything, or be selective. In other words, Bearing the Cross = forsaking all and following = dying to self; and the end of self, is the beginning of Jesus. If it seems like a high price to pay to trust Him this way, it is because you are not recognizing Him for who He is. That means, you don't trust. Then how is He going to work with you? Remember the Pearl of Great Price! Do you want the priceless Pearl, or your best guess? This is your calling, should you decide to accept it. (Mission Unimpossible)
I will tell the story about my early experience after being saved, momemtarily.
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yahsway
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If you Have His life, then you will certainly walk as He walked, Paul said he walked that way and we were to also walk the same said way.
Yes, abundant life indeed, but also a life of picking up your Own cross and following Him. If you do not have trials and persecutions then I question if your life is truly His, for He said we would also suffer such things.
And you are correct, Yeshua did not come to be just our example but our Sin offering and now our mediator, correct? Why must He be our mediator? So that if we sin, we have forgiveness and He is our way to the Father. He intercedes for us on our behalf.
If one is born-again, of the Spirit, then when one disobeys/sins (and you will know it by the Grieving of the Holy Spirit that resides within you)you now have a mediator who intercedes for you, Yeshua HaMasiach!
Its not enough to just believe or know about Him. You must Know or Yada Him, Yada meaning to be Intimate with Him.
Like a wife being intimate with her husband and wants to know (Yada) him and wants to know what pleases him so that she can please him and hear
Well done thy good and faithful wife(servant).
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