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Author
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Topic: The straight gate /
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Michael,Seems your are smarter than Yahweh,
Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master."
Mat 10:24 "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord."
Your comment is pleasantly noted! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) So!
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
I don’t spend my time worrying about being obedient. My position, if I am in correct relationship with Him, His intended, is that, if my obedience is fulfilled, then all I will worry about is the possibility of disobeying! It is positional. If I am outside of obedience, then I will be constantly trying to obey, which requires ‘doing’, which puts one ever under judgment and performance issues. If I am, by His grace, obedient, all I will worry about is the possibility of disobeying.
Jesus didn’t give believers an example of how to live. He gives us a life to live; a life to live by – His! That is why He said:
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
The wine is the Holy Spirit. The body is flesh on the bones, His life imparted to us by faith.
An example of how to live would leave you (plural, meaning anyone) doing it in your own strength to measure up to the example. He gives His life that we may live, saving us from drudgery and failure because it is in His Love to do so. So let me ask you, are you abiding in Jesus, or in your concept fantasy of Him, or of how you think that He would have you do it? When He asks you on that day what you did, how will you answer Him? Will that be enough?
Understand, IF ALL THAT JESUS DID WAS TO GIVE US AN EXAMPLE, HE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE STAYED HOME. You (plural) cannot even live up to His example. So what does that then leave us? Forgiveness? Do you think that His plan was for us to continually not live up to His example so we could get constant forgiveness, so He died for that? Then you think that He designed us to fail so that He could carry a big stick! Tragic! Some folk plainly think so. It is true in the sense that Satan, the accuser of the brethren roams about with a big stick if you are on the wrong side of Grace. But God has a place of refuge where the stick bearer can only wish that he could smite you. Scripture so declares it. Scripture says to find it, and get in it.
But CALLING ALL FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH! Anyone out there; do you think that just trying to live up to an example is what Jesus was talking about when He said:
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Every man chooses his belief, but mine is chosen for me. You can’t do His life, but you can have His life.
Shades of believing, which is the multitudes who follow Him! Which shade are you? Do you want to be a shade, or to shine?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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Michael,Seems your are smarter than Yahweh,
Yahweh took the Old and New Testament to reveal to us the amazing sacrifice that Yeshua one day would become, that was ordained from the foundations of the world.
you said... quote:
I will stick my neck out and attest that three sentences by Jesus would be all it would take to make known what we need to hear. Even less probably, because of who He is.
You still have not responded to Yeshua's obedience to those things He suffered, and Him being our example.
Michael , I have ask you about Yeshua our example, and obedience even unto the cross.
Yeshua did not fail but He could have failed it was His choice. Yeshua choose to obey His father in all things and never do His own will.
I am not sure but you by your reference to the Old Testament….
you said...quote:
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This comes from some of those who believe that one cannot understand the New Testament without understanding the Old. It is not even remotely so!
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It is an absolute fact that the Old Testament is the only completely correct commentary on the New Testament. Know one understood this more than Yeshua . Everything recorded in the New Testament is first expressed in the Old Testament.
The Apostle Paul, by religious people of our time period try to take his message and preach contrary teaching to the whole of scripture.
JAMES 2.…
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Michael, I let Yeshua answer for Himself, He is the author and finisher of Faith that saves…..
Yeshua said those that obey, do what His Father said would be saved…… those that did not obey, do what His Father said would be damned….
.Matthew 25.…
32All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;(A)
33And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.
34Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you [g]favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you [h]brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and [i]lodged Me,
36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me [j]with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me.(B)
37Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink?
38And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You?
39And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?
40And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [[k]in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me.(C)
41Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
42For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me and entertain Me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me [l]with help and ministering care.
44Then they also [in their turn] will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [[m]in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me.(D)
46Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.(E)
Michael , will you argue with Yeshua (He says the sheep hear and obey)
If they do not obey, their Faith is dead.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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yahsway
Did Jesus walk the earth during the Old Testament, or the new? When did it become the New? Was He not under OT law when He walked. What else would He have quoted? Did He not fulfill the Law? Is there not thereafter, a new dispensation? I don't think you are following the conversation.
Jesus didn't show us how to live. He SHOWS us how to live; not only, He is how to live.
Unfortunately, people calling themselves Christian abide in unbelief of His life, and what it means to the believer. (Yea, i said that correctly.)
Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
Thanks and Gawd Bless Ya every one. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif) ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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BECAUSEHELIVES
I must repent and apologize. It has only been 35 years since i was born again.
It isn't what scripture says. It is what it means. Cover to cover, for all the writing in between, it means only one thing. Jesus is what it means; then what about Him huh? That is what is important. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif) Tis why He says, Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
I will stick my neck out and attest that three sentences by Jesus would be all it would take to make known what we need to hear. Even less probably, because of who He is.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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Years of age make no difference, having children make no difference and I made no such claim….
I only was pointing out we are as children and can learn from their example.
Michael , I have ask you about Yeshua our example, and obedience even unto the cross.
Yeshua did not fail but He could have failed it was His choice. Yeshua choose to obey His father in all things and never do His own will.
I am not sure but you by your reference to the Old Testament….
quote:
This comes from some of those who believe that one cannot understand the New Testament without understanding the Old. It is not even remotely so!
It is an absolute fact that the Old Testament is the only completely correct commentary on the New Testament. Know one understood this more than Yeshua . Everything recorded in the New Testament is first expressed in the Old Testament.
The Apostle Paul, by religious people of our time period try to take his message and preach contrary teaching to the whole of scripture.
JAMES 2.…
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Michael, I let Yeshua answer for Himself, He is the author and finisher of Faith that saves…..
Yeshua said those that obey, do what His Father said would be saved…… those that did not obey, do what His Father said would be damned….
.Matthew 25.…
32All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;(A)
33And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.
34Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you [g]favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you [h]brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and [i]lodged Me,
36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me [j]with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me.(B)
37Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink?
38And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You?
39And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?
40And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [[k]in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me.(C)
41Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
42For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me and entertain Me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me [l]with help and ministering care.
44Then they also [in their turn] will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [[m]in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me.(D)
46Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.(E)
Michael , will you argue with Yeshua (He says the sheep hear and obey)
If they do not obey, their Faith is dead.
(I will start another thread on His Name) so as not to confuse the issue on this topic.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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yahsway
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MH,
His name is Yeshua in the Hebrew tongue of which his mother and disciples called Him. Yeshua means Salvation in Hebrew.
Proverbs 30:4 asks "What is His (God) name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?" Well you hear the name of the Father when you say HalleluYah! The greek name for Yeshua is Iesous.
God is just a title. He also has a name, Do you know it?
Yeshua quoted from the Old test a lot. 80 times He quotes from Duet, so whats your point? That we do not need the foundation? That the prophets and the writings were for naught? That the old Test did not point to someone?
That "all scripture is good for reproof, doctrine, correction, ect.." that Paul told Timothy about in his NT letter to him needs to be tossed out and put aside? For we both know he was speaking of the OT scriptures for there was NO NT cannon at that time.
If we are to obey those who rule over us Heb 13
are we not to obey the Father as well. Just as Yeshua obeyed Him?
Isn't Yeshua the WAY back to the Father? Isn't He the Door back to the Father? Did He redeem us thru his blood Back to the Father? Didn't He show us how to Live a life Pleasing to the Father? Wasn't Yeshua obediant unto His death "not My will but Your (The Fathers) will be done"?
Yesua/Jesus is the Way back to the Father. And each of us will give account of himself to God. Rom 14:12
Let us not judge one another anymore.
Everyone must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.
Would like to expound more but must go to work.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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Michael Harrison
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If number of years has any significance, then i have 38 of em. Thirty four of them have been in awareness of said truth. Don't let your understanding trip you. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." Jesus.
Therefore, if Jesus will reveal (revelation) what you should think in your heart, you will be what He wants you to. It is power over death and deception! No one wants to be deceived. No-one.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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First off, i suppose that your use of Yeshua to describe Jesus is comforting to you as evidence that you have grown in the Lord. This comes from some of those who believe that one cannot understand the New Testament without understanding the Old. It is not even remotely so! His name is Jesus, which is the Greek translation, which is the language that He gave us His words in. Have you been waiting for me to mention something about that?
Paul was not married and had no children. Where did he learn what He knew about marriage and children from? It was by revelation of the Lord, which is, plain and simply, how we have any knowledge of Him concerning anything at all. If it isn't revealed, then we make it up.
We are not so different from person to person when it comes to His plan. If He is no respector of persons, why would He treat us differently in the revelation of Christ as our life, or in coming to it?
This post is about the straight gate and narrow way. No matter who you are, we all get into, through that narrow definition of the meaning of life as He gives (has given) it to us. Else, by your definition, each must 'do' his own thing. That is uneven. His provision is wonderful, to say the least, and it is not uneven. It is universal. It works for each and every believer who will trust Him this way. Let me note that "few there be that find it." That is because most are perpetually making arguements that prevent them from receiving the full revelation of Christ their Life, clinging to a notion that separates them from His love. If anyone prays, let them pray for 'receivness'. That would be best.
You say [True obedience is a sign of love toward a God that loved us first when we had no ability to love or obey.]
We don't 'love towards Him'. We love by letting Him fill us. We are His tabernacle, a sacrifice. Rom 12:1 (I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.)
Until we let Jesus do it all, we are in bondage to the elements of this world.
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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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becauseHElives
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posted
Michael Harrison
You talk about stuff on these deep spiritual terms that mean nothing.
You use the example of coming as a child, how many children do you have?
I have 6 of my own and 15 grandchildren.
There are many spiritual observations I have made through my 34 years of seeking after Truth in Scriptures and one is that each child is different and responds different to different situations.
The Walk of Faith is different for all but it is also the same.
Obedience is the most important issue in raising children.
You never mention What I said about Yeshua the author and finisher of our faith, learning obedience.
Yeshua made choices to do only that which pleased His Father.
Yeshua was all GOD and all man at the same time.
He could have done His own will at anytime or the Scriptures is a bunch of baloney.
Yeshua has imparted into me all His life, He gives me the power, desire and ability to do the will of the Heavenly Father, this is what Grace is but there remains in me the power to make the choice to be an obedient child or a disobedient child.
I will say it from now to the day I put off this mortal body and put on immortality, I must learn obedience day by day as I grow from the trails and temptations that come my way everyday, just as Yeshua did.
He was not a robot, Yeshua did not fail but He could have failed it was His choice. Yeshua choose to obey His father in all thing and never do His own will.
Choosing to obey is not working your way into Yahweh’s Love, Yahweh loved us will we were yet sinners.
True obedience is a sign of love toward a God that loved us first when we had no ability to love or obey .
Yahweh does something men can not do , He can look at the heart.
Doctrine is not nearly as important as is the heart.
Many do obedience to be seen of men, Yahweh is only looking for children that live with a heart that desires to please Him and treat those around them with the same loving kindness He has loved them with.
“Believing with the heart “as in John 3:16 and the obedience I am talking about are the same thing……
John 3:16 (King James Version)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (obeys Yahweh from the heart those things He said) should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
A child that trust their earthly father, is an obedient child. The opposite is true of a disobedient child.
Faith without work is dead James said……Faith without obedience is dead would be another way to put it.
Obedience is corresponding action to what ever I say I believe.
The Gospel has been so perverted by human reasoning it is not recognizable in our day.
Perverted teacher have made the Gospel some abstract idea, a skeleton with no organs, muscles
or tissue.
Ephesians 6:6
Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
Ephesians 6:5-7 (in Context) Ephesians 6 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1 Peter 1:21-23 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:3
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
1 John 3:2-4 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Michael Harrison
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Yea! You know, when you write you don't know how it will be heard. So you just throw it out there and shape it like a sculptor till it becomes clear. Cuz i edit a lot. And if you don't say it, you may be depriving someone of something.
Of course, if i didn't say it, even our obedience is of God. We do not contribute anything to Him, even our obedience. All that we have is of Him, and we must surrender even our obedience, to please Him. It is 100% or nothing if we are to surrender to Him on His terms. Without that surrender, we don't even see dimly, as 'through a glass', like we think we do.
This cannot be overemphasized. Know what one hundred percent means. Your fruit bearing relationship depends upon it.
Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by doing (i.e. the law) in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by Having (or faith)."
It is easy to see that we [have] 'forgiveness'. Well, in the same way you have forgiveness, you have destination, purpose, and all that God is working on your behalf to bring about, because it is His life that we have. MOreover, it is called grace, which is God doing for you what you cannot possibly please Him in. It is also subsitution, His life which is eternal, for yours. This is called salvation, or 'being saved' a present tense moment by moment life lived until that day when we are absent from the body.
Some people have a fear to obey for whatever reason. Where will they end up? The devil will get them under condemnation, then what will they have? Forgiveness! It doesn’t go away. Jesus doesn't want you under condemnation. He is able to get your obedience as you look full in His glorious face. He is not carrying a big stick. The one carrying the big stick is the WF&D. The bub. So, if you feel like the stick wielder is waiting to pounce on you, that is not Jesus. Love is gentle. Love delivers. Love leads.
I asked what will the fearful have. The answer: forgiveness. You don't have to work for that. It is the same with accepting the provision that Jesus died on the Cross to give you; His life, which wins. He died on the Cross to give you His life, which overcomes fear and doubt, and empowers you over sin (which is anything disappointing to Him). You don't have to work for it. Working for it annuls it. He is more desirous to embrace you in relationship, and protect you from the devil who torments you from misgivings about whether you have done enough, or are the perfect person. This is an active step by step delivery. If you have the faith that you have His forgiveness, you have the faith needed that He is fulfilling your well-being of relationship with Him, and the world around you according to His purpose.
You have choices, but power to obey is a gift. How shall anyone be saved if not, remembering that, “not that we loved Him, but that He loved us first.” (1John4:19)
Don’t work on working for it. Work on having it, which is Him. To seek first the Kingdom, you have to seek first the King. It doesn’t cease. You always seek the King - to have. You 'have' by the King, as long as you are 'having' the King! When you are not having the King, you are like Peter on the water when He jumped out of the boat.
You don't do what you have, because if you have it, it is already done. It comes with the King.
Cast Him not away. You are not Jesus, but without Him, you are not anything (a lost sinner at best). You are not Jesus, but Jesus is you, as long, and only as long as you are perfectly yielded to Him by faith. (Col 3:4 "When Christ, who is our life..."[it is the same in that He abides in you by faith in the fact]) Else, you are a dead branch, fit for nothing but to be cast into the fire. You can do nothing for Him. You can do all things by Him.
If you obey this, then will you see how all things in the word fit together. Otherwise you are separated from Him and abide in darkness, and the light shineth not.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for sharing. I am happy to hear that you are not accusing me, but if I am being accused, it is by a messenger of the devil. I also believe that sometimes it is hard to convey certain messages without seeming to come across with an air of too much self-assurance. Though I feel confident in the belief that our obedience plays an important role in God's will for us, I dont want to be misconstrued as being over-confident in myself and my own abilities apart from the Lord's provision. If Jesus ever permitted the Holy spirit to confirm His word in me, I certainly dont see myself saying "Look, what you see here would not be possible without Christ Jesus, and my obedience". That would be foolish and arrogant of me, I know. I hope you realize that I understand that.
When you speak of "having" the thing that comes to mind for me is "having His forgiveness". That is what has motivated me to love Him and desire more from Him.
That is where the Lord has become real to me in my heart. Your posts do encourage me to never forget that. Thank you.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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What makes it hardest to tell is that people think that they already know. To add to that, what I am trying to say cannot be said, only hinted at! Then, when stated with verbiage it sounds self-exalting!
In fact - it is self abasing. It doesn’t sound that way somehow. In fact, it even sounds provocative, which is nevertheless scriptural according to this passage:
Heb 10:24 “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:”
And these: Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
What is said, is however, self-abasing in that it is in recognition of the fact that I cannot do what is required, but I can yield to His accomplishing thereof by faith, praise, acceptance and belief, which is a gift. Here is what is important regarding it, since this cannot be easily said; all must ‘seek-out’ in order to know what He wants them to find (work out their own salvation). They don’t know well enough what they are looking for, but they must cleanly enter into His provision, which means that they must find it out from Him. However ‘all’ (I use this word mildly) are so easily deceived by the flesh, and sidetracked so that they end up in the wrong pasture than the one the Lord calls them to be in. The example is repeated over and over in the Old Testament.
Don’t be in the wrong pasture, and I am telling you, pastors have a huge responsibility in this, yet they are failing, udderly ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif) cause they don’t have a clue. In fact, if this is preached in churches, they will boot you. Even if the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is not welcome there. Most Strangely. I know that I have gotten the cold shoulder (shudder) which is so strange. It is like when you first know Jesus, and you want to share Him, but the intended shy away. Only, to have Christians cold shoulder you, well, if it breaks my heart, what must it do to His? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) I will tell you. I have His heart, as should you.
As long as you are reading scripture as something to do, you are going to wander in the wilderness.
It isn’t what you do. It is what you have; because, simply – He is, and He is ours! So you have to ask yourself, “How is He?” Well, that’s profound. How He is, we cannot be, because we are not Him. So then, if you read, “As He is, so are we in this world,” (1John) how can that be? Simply, we do not stand alone. He abides in those who abide in Him (Take care that you know how to abide) and He abides in us, in this world, or He is a stranger.
When the USA sends an ambassador to another country, that ambassador is to that country wherein he is sent, the United States. When they see that ambassador, they are seeing the United States. When they deal with that ambassador, they are dealing with the United States. So Paul was the ambassador of Christ. When you see Paul, you are seeing Jesus. When you deal with Paul, you are dealing with Jesus. But, unlike the US comparison, there is a living reality. When you are dealing with Paul, you are dealing with Jesus, because Paul, yields to Jesus.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [I live, but it is a new me, filled out from the innermost, with Christ, and i am moved (carried) by His own faith]
He is not speaking on behalf of Jesus. He is an interface directly with the Lord. It is not like Jesus went to heaven and left Paul behind to deal with it, saying "yeah, good job Paul. I'll check with you later." You are dealing with Jesus; and so it is from brethren-to-brethren, who are walking in the light as He is in the light, when they are. This is called - the KINGDOM of GOD.
The commandments of God are the spoken word. Jesus is the Word of God. The law of God comes by Word of God, therefore, the law comes by the Jesus of God (by Jesus from God). Jesus is the law. He is the WORD of God. When He says He will write His laws in your heart, that therefore means that He will write HIMSELF into your heart. He is the Law of God. He doeth the works, as the sap flows unhindered through the vine. If you believe that He is the law who is written in your hearts, then everything is done by Him.
Believing - is seeing with the heart.
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Michael Harrison
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In all this I am not saying that you are wrong in what you relate. I am saying that there is something that is more correct in revelation. And when i write all of this, i am not pointing a finger at you in a direct sense, but at all those who desire to know Him, and who are already called by His name. The devil gets one to take it personally. Also, in the next to previous post i now would have preferred to have used the word 'illustrate' rather than 'challenge'. Yea! That would work.
The point i make about the commandment for all of us as believers, "With all your heart, soul, mind..." is that, since you cannot do it, it doesn't matter if you try a little, or try a lot. You cannot. This is universal. It is strange to us as everyday people to consider, and i would illustrate a towering dilemma in relationship (which is what we are supposed to be in) by pointing it out. If you cannot do it by trying, how is it done? It is done! You are not condemned to transgression and distant future hope. It is real victory now!
So, if you don't try, to some that would be sacrilege. But no! It would be sacrilege to try if you can't do it, and you already know it; (He understands that you want to) but it is important to Him that you are able to be fulfilled in this. Therefore, He HAS made a provision for you to be able to (do) be, have. Every man must seek it (the mystery). It is beyond one's self. In other words, don't expect that you are sufficient in yourself to know what God wants, and that you can perform it. That was the error of Cain. He missed it, and was exposed for what error was in him after that he realized that his effort was not ample. Not getting his way, he went off. No fear and humility there.
Viewing it as a theology problem, or a war of words of conceptual intellectual posturing will not solve it for anyone. It will always come down to being a gift. Receive it. Let you be transformed by the renewing of your mind in the enlightenment of Christ Your Life.
Again i'll say, your required response is to believe, and receive. For example, He says to love your neighbor. You cannot. He can. You let Him. You are His vessel for it. He will love them, and maybe there will be something to do...Some desired response. But He will love!
I'll b bak!
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I have been trying to understand you. It all started with your line that went...."stop trying to do what you have". Now my understanding about what you are saying there is that there is this vanity in self-effort (wrestling). This presumably is what I am being accused of.
Now, what I am trying to explain is that there is a difference between creating my own way to God and striving to get there(self-effort), and committing to doing the things that Jesus teaches (required responses).
This is the simplest way that I can explain it.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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This is not heated up. Daniel is a blessed brother and I know that he loves me in Christ. And I have to grin from ear to ear. (He loves us so much Our Jesus). But Daniel doesn’t hear what I am saying, and these words do sound provocative, I know. Words however are the vehicle for meaning. The meaning that I am trying to communicate is paramount. I would bleed to communicate it, and may someday. I don’t know. But it is my joy to share it.
The understanding gets in the way, and the words I use can be heard varying ways. Only one is of the Spirit. The rest are of the unenlightened, (unenlightenable) natural man (the old man). The natural man that Paul talks about is like a filter. Remember the days when you had a camera, and particularly if you were shooting black & white you would choose a filter to affect the outcome of the photograph? Well, the natural man stands between the ears of the hearer, and the heart. By the time the words reach the heart, they are distorted. The respondent reacts; that is, unless the message reaches the heart in tact. He reacts because the understanding is different than what he hears. It is a defense mechanism.
This very statement takes me back to where I mentioned about Jacob wrestling with God, wherein he had his thigh dislocated. The message in that was that Jacob’s defense mechanism was in play against God - and God took it out making him fully dependent on his Lord. Every man should pray for it. This is why Jesus gave us the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the peacemakers.” Blessed are you if you are inadequate, not filled with self-determination!
If you are blessed to have the defense mechanism taken out, that natural man who distorts what the Spirit says to our hearts, is rendered ineffective. The mud, which is our natural man, is washed out of our eyes. Selah! There is a whole new way of seeing that He has for us, one that blesses His heart, a heavenly view. In the meantime, full of well meaning, we toil, not having a clue what the Spirit has for us. (1cor2:10)
![[angel3]](graemlins/angel3.gif) I grin again! You can disagree with the message, but is it me with whom you disagree? You will have absolutly no doubt until the message becomes reality. Then you will understand what I mean by my speaking of ‘high horse’. Love ya n Christ!
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freeinchrist
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i have really enjoyed this subject..i read this stuff over and over again. i love the fact of people coming together to discuss these things. but it seems to be getting alittle heated up.. please keep this subject going but don't lose the focus..i don't wish this subject to end ... thank-you..and peace be with you..James
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Do you accuse me of self-exaltation because I speak on the importantance of obedience?
Would you also accuse Peter and the Apostles?
Acts 5:29-32 But Peter and the apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Would you also accuse Paul?
Romans 2:7-9
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of ...
Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Galatians 5:7-8 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuation does not come from Him who calls you.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Would you accuse the writer of Hebrews also?
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
and Peter again?
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgement to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Would you also accuse Jesus?
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
You know Michael, I could understand your accusation if I had never spoken on the importance of continually depending on the Lord for strength to persevere, and if I had not emphasized the need for us believers to call on Christ for the Comforter to strengthen our witness by confirming His Word in us.
Now as far as the commandments are concerned. Jesus said "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fullfill it." The New Covenant is God's plan to write His Laws in our hearts. He does not expect perfection, but we are to be perfected/sanctified by faith that is in Jesus and His Words. If you believe that there are no commandments that we need to keep, what is your take on this verse?
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
I understand that God is the source of all that is needed to accomplish His good will in our lives....but that does not mean that there are no commands.
Michael you are critical of my speaking of the need to obey Christ.....but then you go on to speak of an obedience that you believe is important. So it does'nt appear that you disagree with the importance of obedience....you just dont like the way that I put it in context. When I speak of obedience, I speak of obedience to the Words of Christ. I dont understand why anyone would want to argue that, considering it means opening our hearts up to the words of truth that sanctify our hearts and lead us into a victorious life in Christ. Abiding in Christ also means abiding in His Words.
So do you still accuse me of self-exaltation or would you rather that I use different and less offensive terminology?
Michael, if I didn't care about our friendship in the Lord I would not take the time and thought to consider your words and reply to you.
It is my hope and my prayer that the confidence that you profess in Christ moves you to Godly living all to the glory of God, and the exaltation of the Name of Jesus Christ. It is by His Word that we understand His Will for us, and it is by His spirit that we are guided into a specific direction whereby the Lord utilizes our gifts and talents to maximum effectiveness for His perfect purpose.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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It is a long, long, loooooonnnnnng way down from where we are on our high horse, in the ‘pride of life’, down to where we can meet the reality of the provision of our Lord. Scripture says “Except ye be come as a little child,” you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That would require humbling down, down, down. He says that:
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The eye of the needle, spoken of in scripture, is a hole in the wall of Jerusalem where traders enter and leave. In order for people with camels to enter and leave, they have to unpack their camel, then draw it to its knees in order to get through the hole. This symbolizes removing your burdens and humbling down in order to enter the city of the Great King. But many are so smart, that they will bump their heads for their entire life, trying to enter in, without doing so, but being dizzy from head injury, will be thinking that they have. Show them one scripture that they don’t understand and they will ignore it, if they can’t cope with it. It seems ok to them.
You said that the Bible is full of commandments, and that I couldn’t have gotten what I stated to so be, from the Bible. Let me tell you something sir. It comes from Jesus! It is in His word. So, let me take you to task once more. For, “whomsoever shall fall upon this Rock, shall be broken.” (That means that the pride of life will no longer blind their eyes.)
You say that there are commandments that you must keep, that they are prolific in scripture. Well, let’s look at the paramount commandment, which is most important to God, and which will take care of the rest in domino fashion, if heeded. “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.” And let’s look at the first part, “Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength.”
You say that there are these commandments, and that you must ‘do’ them, that scripture says to - plainly. You have just read it. Do you? He says do it. Don’t make excuses.
I will ask you, how much effort does it take to ‘do’ this? There should be a measure of how much, if you can accomplish it. Therefore you should be able to tell someone how that they will know when they have done enough, so that they can be satisfied in themselves that they have done this.
Do you love with all of the heart even, or are you kidding yourself? This is a commandment - the commandment. There are two possibilities: either you say yes, in which case you lie, albeit you may be well meaning. Or, you admit that you can’t. Brother, I tell you to ‘do’ it. But you can’t! No amount of effort will suffice. If, in fact, you could, He would have not needed to die, but He expects it! It is a commandment! The commandment.
You are compelled to try on the one hand. On the other, you feel if you don’t, you are slapping Him in the face. Well why are you trying? Do you draw consolation from the fact that you tried? Does that gain points with Him? It isn’t enough. Not enough is not enough! You say you gotta try. Well, by nature of the fact of trying, you are trying to earn it; and try telling me how that you are going to try to earn unmerited favor: a gift?
If you are going to keep His commandments, you must keep them all, starting with this one. If you accept that you cannot ‘do’ that, then you are condemned to a life of failure and perpetual repenting. What kind of a message will this tell the world? Why would anyone want to know our God? If you have to work for it by trying, you might as well do buddah.
In Luke, Jesus said, Luk 12:25 “And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?”
Luk 12:26 “If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?”
He makes it clear. You cannot even change your stature by a microminiature amount. Why take thought for something else. It means “Why do you try to ‘do’ it?
Now that it must be done is paramount. You said so yourself. How that is accomplished you must find out, and it is not by ‘doing’. In the meantime, you are transgressing Him, coming up short of His glory, by abiding in unbelief, trespass and sin, by trying. The Kingdom is in ‘having’, ye who are called by His name, not in ‘doing’.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to GIVE you the kingdom.
You must humble yourself to receive. Doing is not humble, but full of worldly pride, and self. If you cannot have it by ‘doing’, then how? You must know - precious little ones.
The point is, if He commands it, He will perform it, if we will submit unto it by belief, which is having, which is our reality if we want His reality!
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becauseHElives
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Obedience ? ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Do I have a choice?
Has Yeshua made me a robot?
No one has any life outside Yeshua!
No obedience except obedience from the life walking in the Spirit pleases Yahweh!
Yeshua is the only example the believer can look to and receive instruction!
Yeshua learned obedience through the things He suffered!
Like wise the believer learns obedience through suffering with Yeshua and for Yeshua!
Yahweh’s mercy is new every morning, but I must choose to receive it.
Most every alter call I have ever heard says…”invite Christ into your heart and be saved”, this is a lie!
Yeshua does not say ask Me into our heart, He invites us to enter into His life, to share in all that He has finish that was required of a Holy Righteous Loveing God and Father.
But everyday continually I have a choices to make, walk after the Spirit or walk after the flesh!
Choose life, choose to obey from the heart by the Spirit, just as Yeshua gave example.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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I do not believe in 'once saved, always saved'. I would take a person directly to where Paul said "I do not consider myself to have attained..."
Though he said 2Ti 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." Yet, by his first statement "do not consider," in the fear of God he clearly recognizes that he has a free will and can blow it. Nevertheless, it is a mystery. Yet! It is done, if he can rest in it! Selah!!
(He does not consider himself to have attained, as though it depends upon himself to do it. He rests in God his savior to do it.)
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Michael Harrison
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Daniel
What you have described to me in all these posts IS the Christian experience. It is not the CHRIST experience. As long as you are determined that you must work to have it, it will elude you. The abundant life will be like a leaky faucet; drip... drip... drip....
It cannot be made more simple. What you hear as commandment, does not mean to do it. It means to have it because He has provided. It is 'The Promised Land', which He GIVES His people, (and if you reread this sentence it should become clear; or read it in the OT where He said that He would 'Give' them the promised land.If any would like to read this post from top to bottom, i have already joyously answered these. Yet I am joyously willing to answer again.)
Clearly, since you cannot 'do', because if you 'could' you would be 'fulfilling' the law, which you 'cannot', which is why Jesus had to die to fulfill it for you, then, as He said of His Father, "He doeth the works." You cannot add to Him except by 'Praising' Him for His costly, Blood Sacrifice provision.
If you'll 'believe' He'll change you, and If'll you'll learn this: Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
An interesting thing happens here. When you put on Christ, the more important side of the coin which doesn't appear face up, until you turn it over, is that "He puts on you."
I know! It is hard to accept such a wonderful gift, but those are His terms! ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
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oneinchrist
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Michael,
I dont mean to intervene as you are in conversation with becauseHElives. I am very troubled over something that you said in your last post........"God does'nt command"
Im sorry that statement seems to be far from the truth. Scripture is full of commands. Yes, God loves and leads by love, but with that comes commands and warnings. I dont know where you get this idea from, it cant be from scripture.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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becauseHElives
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Michael Harrison,
Two questions before I comment...
1. What Does the "Promise Land" typify in the Old Testament to the believer today?
2. Do you take the position a believer after the New Birth can never be lost? Yes or no
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Michael Harrison
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Yew sed: [Hi Michael,
Much of our discussion has been over the importance of obedience. There are scriptures that warn us against disobedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Though you have expressed the need for us to understand Pauls writings, I do not believe that you have been convincing enough to prove the expendability of our obedience/loyalty/faithfullness to the Lord Jesus.]
I believe that you have only lightly read over what I have posted. Anyways....
Disobedience to the Gospel? Verily! You don’t have to struggle to be ‘faithful’. You don’t have to ‘try’ to be loyal.
![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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My brother wanted to join the Mormons because he bought into the commercials that protray family unity. All i can say is that Jesus says that you must not love father or mother, brother, etc. more than Him. He says, he that forsakes not all that he hath cannot be my disciple. That includes family, friends and so on. This is absolute. God deals in the absolute. You cannot serve Him and cling to these, which come under the category of 'riches'. You cannot serve God and mammon (riches).
Faith, which is demonstrated trust, gives unto Him the credit that He will hold in His hand that which you find important, and you trust His decision on these things. After all, are they not more important to Him. Forsake all that he hath, means all that He hath; not that he should sell whatever, or run off whomever, or give away everything, but submit it all to his care, hands off in sacrifice. How can you come to do that? Because you believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who come to Him by faith. Here is obedience!
Wealth, which is possessions (which unfortunately, misguidedly includes people) is idolatry. How so? Scripture says that love of money (which is one type of wealth) is the root of all evil. Money in itself is not: love of it is. Why? Because you put your faith in it. People want money because they 'believe' that it will accomplish things for them. That makes it an idol, and scripture says that you shall have no other gods before Me.
Going back to obedience, which is important to you: What do you get for your obedience? Whatever you list, do you get it because you obey? God doesn't command us to do anything, but to have! If He wants us to 'do' something, He doesn't command us, He leads. He didn't 'command' Peter to His martyrdom. Only satan Pontificates.
Love leads.
You receive God's gift(s). God commands you to have, not to do. There is nothing that you can 'do'. All the people who are trying to 'do', are working. That's the opposite of rest. All the people that are trying to do, are trying to earn. Merit. The law is equal to trying to earn, which is equal to doing to earn. This fruit is comparable to the wood, hay and stubble talked about in Corinthians. It will be lost. Therefore says our Lord, Lay not up treasure on earth where moth and dust corrupt and thieves break in to steal.
Ultra repentance is required to reap that which we can lay up in heaven. But it is such a small step. I cannot tell you that it is not scary to commit in this way. That is why you have a relationship wherein you can talk to Him, work it out (work out your salvation with fear and trembling). This is His leading.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I have felt that our conversations have been good and beneficial. The man who led me to Christ years ago used to have these kind of conversations with me and we grew together in a brotherly bond and a stronger conviction in the truth of the love of God. I will never forget the time he invited me over to his house. Oh, it was a nice house with a beautiful view of a lake from a hilltop. He was standing by the window and he said, "Daniel, come here and look out my window at this view". So I did. Then he said "you know what, this doesn't mean anything to me anymore now that I have Jesus in my heart". I can tell you at that point in time I was cut to the heart, and I knew that I was lacking. That began a new chapter in my life.
Through our conversations I have tried to pick up on the message you are trying to convey. I have to say that overall the thoughts that come to my mind are that sometimes I feel that there is some sort of disconnect for some people between faith in Jesus and faith in His Words. When I read the gospels I am convinced that should not be the case. When Jesus speaks of justification, he gives an example where love is shown. Jesus also states that we can be left unforgiven if we choose not to forgive....sometimes that dont seem to line up with the "not saved by works" sentiment. I suppose I may be cautious with the way that I look at some of Paul's teachings. It seems to be important to consider context, and what objective Paul is trying to reach, in order to come up with logical conclusions. I have to admit that I have actually disagreed with Paul in the instance where He rebukes the appointed leader of the flock in front of everyone. That I cannot understand the reason for. Why could it not have been effectively communicated in private without causing public shame? But nevertheless, Paul was a man of God, afflicted for the cause of Christ, and diligent to the end. I could have nothing to say against that unless I want to speak against God. Michael, I'm not upset with you. I dont feel compelled to compare my life with you because I respect the uniqueness in the body of believers. I just have strong conviction in the necessity of faith in Jesus Words', yes, which in many ways does equate to a heart that is ready to obey them. This conviction is not just based on reading scripture, but on seeing how God has operated in my life, and has been helping build a stronger bond of love in the faith with my family and friends. I have shared some of my testimony on this site, for I am not ashamed of how the Lord has communicated to me in some dreams, and in answer to prayer. It is always my hope to hear good news of what God has done in other peoples lives, and how He has changed them by His forgiveness and love. With you, it is no different. I am here to move on in the faith with all my brothers and sisters here. I have always believed and I will continue to believe that "love" is the most signature evidence of a believer in Christ. No matter how eloquent some speech may be, I always look for the evidence shown by love expressed. Thank you my friend for the conversation.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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Dear Daniel:
Here is where I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, and try to persuade others.
It is not between you and me. It is between you and Him. You stand or fall to Him. I am not the example that you are to judge yourself by, but the word has been preached, Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Someone will read and believe!
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Much of our discussion has been over the importance of obedience. There are scriptures that warn us against disobedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Though you have expressed the need for us to understand Pauls writings, I do not believe that you have been convincing enough to prove the expendability of our obedience/loyalty/faithfullness to the Lord Jesus.
In my last post I was asking if you could share some of your testimony. Could you please still do that?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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My life is pretty uneventful, except for precious awareness of Him, being preoccupied with Him without even trying, thrilling evidences of Him, answered prayer, being able to really ‘pray without ceasing’ and some stuff, that is much of what I could say. There is more. If you want, I will keep you posted.
Of course, there ARE tests, insults, tribulation. You said it. I do not have an unbroken record of living up to His Grace. But I am in a much better place. The power to is there.
Read messages on the Victorious Life, by Charles Trumbull. The book is called "Victory in Christ."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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I don’t believe. That is such a key phrase.
Does one automatically abstain from sin. It can be answered either way. I don’t know if you have been positioning yourself to pounce on this. Theologians around the world would wait with baited breath, ready to rub my nose in First John, and Romans, depending upon how I answer. Ok! So I’ll rub my own nose in it. They’ll do well to join me. To the extent that victory is already paid for, it is automatic. However, we must ‘do’ something. We must believe, but what is that, really, because He does the doing? We simply receive. We can in no wise do it, but we can receive, by belief.
This is where the heart comes in, ‘if the eye is single, the body will be full of light’. What is the eye if it is not single? It is double. For that matter, it is evil. Double means the same thing. Therefore, the passages means, if the heart believes, the soul will be full of light. If it is not evil, it will be full of light.
Now, without holiness, no one can see God. So if it is not possible to be above sin, then no man will see Him. Then there would be no point to this passage of scripture. Why would anyone preach holiness if it was only partial? It would be of no effect. If the salt has lost its savor, it is fit only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. What does it mean, ‘lost its savor’? It means given to sin; and most believe that fact to be an inescapable reality of the Christian life. Therefore they justify themselves in it and condemn anyone for thinking otherwise. If you look, you will find soul shaking passages that warn against this, yet everyone persists.
Like, you said [ I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit makes this happen… like we just automatically do it without a conscious decision to obey the spirits leading.]
Do you want to please God? Do you think He will be pleased with this? He is more concerned with your being safe from sin than anything else you think is important to Him. He can use a fit vessel.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that DOETH righteousness is born of him.
What is righteous? It means that you do nothing apart from Him, nothing that He wouldn’t do. It means that you don’t transgress Him. How do you transgress? Idolatry; covet/lust after; hate – you know. Thererfore you must be content, and trusting for righteousness to be imparted to you. If the heart is content with Jesus, he has all He needs.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
John words this so strongly. I prefer the last half of this to sound like, ‘ whosoever sinneth neither sees, nor knows Him. This is how John means it. It is very personal to know someone. Sin (see my post about ‘wages of sin’) separates you from fellowship with Him. Some complain about ‘clouds’ hiding His face. There you go! Doesn’t mean that you are not ‘saved’, rather, not intimate with Him, and therefore breaking His heart. You are missing something powerful that He means for you to have. Look! It says, “whosoever ABIDETH in Him, sinneth not. Then, if and when you sin, you ABIDETH NOT due to sin. But John alludes to abiding! In abiding, you sinneth not! Else you are not abiding. So you have a bunch of Christians who get a trickle down blessing from time to time. Think what it would be like to Abide in Him if they get a trickle down when they are not being righteous. Think also about this. “Whosoever ABIDETH in me may ask what they will and it will be done for Him.” Well, ever wonder why you have these little ‘unanswered prayers’?
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) .
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
As he is, so are we in this world. How is He? Not if we abide in, or are defeated in sin. Look back to verses, 6,7,8,14.
So, there is a provision to know His life, righteousness, and more....
“With the heart you BELIEVE unto righteousness….” Unto what? How? Believe in your heart – unto not being under the power of sin, which will separate you from close fellowship with Him. With the heart you BELIEVE, and unto what, living, walking, essentially being imparted RIGHTEOUSness, not condemned to crushing His Spirit by sin and unbelief.>>
If Brother Lawrence had only known. He wrote this neat little book on "Practicing the presence of God." God is willing to impart His presence. What could be better than that? What are the requirements?
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I just read your post. I appreciate your direct responses to my post. I am still not quite sure that I am convinced ,by your explanation, that these responses to God are even meant to be automatic (in the sense that we make no conscious decision to act upon Gods leading). I cannot relate to that in my life experiences. I don't see how our faith is tested if we are just carried along without ever having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.
But, you do have me curious about how God has impressed upon your life, and the lives of people around you. Has God brought you to any places in life that you had never expected? Would you be willing to share some of your testimony?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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I follow you. Once upon a time when I wrestled, these decisions were more in front of me and seemed to be something that I had to deal with. Paul however says “Let us lay aside the sin that so easily ‘besets’ us. This kind of struggle is kin to it. Strife, (wrestling) is sin.
His grace is even more sufficient, and we more aware of His grace as we enter trials; truly amazing and comforting.
Concerning the Holy Spirit, that very manifestation is all that so many can see. They overlook personal Jesus who is the one who died to empower them unto a life eternal. What, after all, is the purpose of the Holy Spirit? It is to manifest Jesus to you, and in you, and in your very life. Here is an example of our sight falling short because we focus on something that seems right. Jesus alone is our eternal focus. The Holy Spirit comes with Him because Jesus paved the way by the work on the cross. The comforter brings us Jesus (God in Christ Jesus, in you, [I forget the passage]).
The most personally personal relationship to Jesus is not as clearly pictured in scripture, but is undeniably there, in a strong way. This is why Jesus gave us the words, “Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be given you.”
So, your question: //I only want to ask you a question about the process of allowing Christ to live in you and express His life through you. As a result of this, do you say that one automatically loves one another? or does one automatically abstain from sin?//
Splitting hairs….
It is no longer I that live but Christ. Think about it. If this truly is the experience of the believer exactly the way Paul says it, (and means it), are you then saying that you must struggle to ‘let Him save, deliver, reign, love? Is this what Jesus intends, that you wrestle with this stuff? Then why does He say “My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” This should lead one to search this out; not take for granted that their experience is the reality he wants one to experience. Because in fact, you may cross the desert of struggle, but there is an oasis of victory just after it. That desert will be behind you, unless you go back to it, and i don't mean that you keep going back to it. Those guys in the OT came into the promise land. PROMISE!
You will always be confronted. You don’t have to fight the fight though.
Watchman Nee appeals to believers in his writings unto this by describing how a balloon under water rises above it. He says that if you are in proper relationship, rising is the rule more so than what we know in the flesh, which is that sin pushes us down. Walking on the water is something that is automatic, a given, done; unless you fail to rest in the one (like Peter when he got out of the boat, took His eyes off of Jesus and lost faith).
It is a personal relationship, the most personal that it can be in that you are trusting Him in the present tense for: that all of your need is met. He is saving, delivering, guiding your every step. He is cleansing, reigning, keeping you safe in Him, delivering you unto that day. You are asking if you love automatically – yes! You are a channel of His love. If you meet the requirements of surrender, then you have no need to hate someone, because you accept His will for them as they are, where they are.
You say:// The way that I understand it in my life is that the Holy Spirit gives us convictions, warnings, guidance, strength, and direction........but it still leaves us with choices to make. For example: I may be convicted of unforgiveness or bitterness by the Holy Spirit, but I have to make the choice to go and forgive and make reconciliation. or I may be warned by the spirit not to try and settle a matter by force, but I am still left with the choice to restrain my power...in the same way I believe that we are left with the choice to love one another. I dont believe that the Holy Spirit makes this happen...like we just automatically do it without a conscious decision to obey the spirits leading.//
The deceiver has you down on the mat wresting, and you are unaware that you don’t have to. You have the sword.
You have choices. It is a matter of free will. But free will can surrender to victory, if it recognizes what it is supposed to! I said that you will always be confronted. This gives opportunity for free will to allow Jesus to come through, i.e. be manifest, which means more dramatically, be glorified! Jesus loves! It is not something that you do. It is something that you allow. It is something that you can prevent, due to fallen nature. Though, you are not required to be subject to your fallen nature, (sin shall not have dominion over you ~Romans) else the words of scripture are in vain.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Quite simply, hating, or not forgiving will prevent you from, (what does it say in these passages?) walking in the light, which is what we have been talking about. These are three strong passages. If you let Jesus have control over everybody and everything, you are forgiving in a blanket way, because you accept that these events are not random. They are, for simplicity, opportunity for Jesus to be manifest in you, in answer to the given situation (choice). Evil will, in this life, confront every one of us. How you meet it determines whether the fruit of the Spirit will be borne in, and through you, which is Jesus dealing with it instead of you because you trust Him by faith. Did you know, I cannot say this strongly enough, that when someone, or even something, wrongs you, that, if you do not forgive, it is your God - that you do not forgive, literally, personally, and directly? That will put it in a different light.
I would like to address this more probably, but, another post maybe!
The light of Jesus shine in your life and reconcile you to the Father, in Jesus Name, Amen!
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for your response. I feel that in many ways I know you as a person by your willingness to express your faith.
The way that you express this need for a dependence upon Christ for the strength to persevere I can in no way refute. I believe that we all have that need, and that that need can even increase as we come into trials.
Usually the dialogue that I use when expressing this allowing of Christ to rule our hearts is "submitting to the Holy Spirit"....this same spirit that indeed is come from Christ. I am not about to get into a terminology quarrel, because I believe that we both do speak on the same concept, but just use different words to express it. It is the Holy Spirit that does give each one of us uniqueness in our expression of faith and I do sincerely respect that.
I only want to ask you a question about the process of allowing Christ to live in you and express His life through you. As a result of this, do you say that one automatically loves one another? or does one automatically abstain from sin?
The way that I understand it in my life is that the Holy Spirit gives us convictions, warnings, guidance, strength, and direction........but it still leaves us with choices to make. For example: I may be convicted of unforgiveness or bitterness by the Holy Spirit, but I have to make the choice to go and forgive and make reconciliation. or I may be warned by the spirit not to try and settle a matter by force, but I am still left with the choice to restrain my power...in the same way I believe that we are left with the choice to love one another. I dont believe that the Holy Spirit makes this happen...like we just automatically do it without a conscious decision to obey the spirits leading.
I think you understand what I am trying to say. So what is your take on this. Does the Lord leave us with those faith responses that I describe, or do we just automatically carry out Gods will?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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I love talking to you oneinchrist. I won’t get tired of talking it unless you insist. Your point, ‘doesn’t love matter’, is a paramount one. It does. It is all important, therefore it is important to firmly grasp what it is. A controversial figure, brother Norman Grubb says that love is not something that you have, or something that you do, it is something that He is. He records this verbiage in a little pamphlet called “The Key to Everything.” It is a good read.
Concerning reflecting His love, this is a profound misconception that I suffer before the Throne over. Imagine a grape vine being described as reflecting the sap. Doesn’t make much sense, does it? Sap flows in the vine to make it whatever the vine becomes, longer, more fruit bearing, leaf bearing, and green. It is the same for us within whom dwells the Holy Spirit of our Loving God. The concept that His light shines on us and we reflect it out places Him out there somewhere far away from us; but Jesus said a city on a hill cannot be hid. It is lit from within. He stated that nobody lighteth a candlestick and putteth it under a bushel. Why? The light is inside the believer. We don’t cover it up with denial or unbelief, but we let Him shine. Let's go back to the vine! Sap comes from within, from the source first, to us. If fills and gives life to the recipient like light fills the glass globe of a light bulb. We are the recipient if we believe on Jesus and are cleansed by His blood. He flows from Heaven, into us, and to whomever He blesses as we minister Him upon this earth. We are channels of His life and manifestation, windows to Heaven, as it were, or fruit bearing for others to pick and be refreshed by (or edified by).
The concept of reflecting parallels the one of imitating Him. We don’t, and why should we when we have the real thing inside. All we have to do to relate Him to the world around us is to follow after Him by faith, and praise. That is preceded with taking up our Cross, which is actually laying down our life, which is being slain, i.e. baptized into His death, of the which Paul aptly stated, “I die daily.” This literally means that Jesus can then live. What could be more important than that? Not one thing anyone can think of.
Concerning loyalty to His cause, you don’t have to be loyal when you cannot be otherwise, by having His Grace in you (disregarding free will of course, which can and will sin if we don’t trust Him). Of course, since you mentioned it, I am not one who lends any credibility to ‘once saved always saved’. I will say that it is a mystery nevertheless, but it is not a subject I will delve into here.
I will again take this opportunity to say this:
Literally! The straight gate and narrow way is to let Jesus unconditionally have and to do it all. (Rom8:32) This requires a sacrifice of faith, which is surrender by, or to, belief unto Him, that He is. This is your cross. (See Rom14:23; Heb11:6) Jesus, who dwells in your heart by faith, is your heart, and you are conformed to His image (Rom 8:29) by this act of submission. You don’t grow into it.
Perhaps I was mean in the earlier post concerning the definition of doing. It was a great find by the way, even if the scriptures argue differently concerning the conclusion that the definition drew. I am so sorry. I just got excited! You/we must understand that letters do not sound the same necessarily as the same thing stated in person might. Remember that the Corinthians said that Paul’s letters seemed weighty (2Co 10:10). Anyway, to keep it short, I won’t go into “Walking in the light as He is in the light.” In fact, I think I just did. Keep the faith, the Love of our Lord guide you, your servant in Christ MDH.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Slaving away working for Him is one thing, but obeying the Lords commands because we love Him can be another. I agree with you 100% Michael that belief is obedience, because Jesus chastisted those whose hearts remained callous in unbelief. He would not have chastised them if they could not help it.
I want to adress the epistles of John because they seem to give us some very clear, cut, and dry ways to examine our hearts. John has been recorded as the one writer who more frequently used language most similar to Jesus. Sometimes I wonder about that correlation, and the gift of Revelation that came to Him. Something else unique to Johns epistles are the two commands that are given ....to trust on the name of His Son, and His command to love one another. They are not layed out so precisely by any other writer. Love is also the predominant theme throught much of the epistles. Should this be a strong message to all of us?
When we examine our hearts, should'nt we be first and foremost looking for a reflection of Gods' love that has permeated our hearts and flows out into our interpersonal relationships? I mean, we can sit here and wrestle with theological issues forever, but we know that faith without love is nothing. Really, I dont believe that Paul would even speak about a faith without love if it wasn't possible. Its a faith that may have great knowledge, but does not pursue and yield to love for the benefit of others.
One thing that certainly can humble us is knowing that God is testing our hearts. One may wonder why do our hearts get tested? If Christ is in me, then a test may seem to be a waste of time. Christ is all sufficient and He has conquered all..... You see, this is where the misconception, I believe, can come in. Certainly the test is not to test the sufficiency of Christ. The Lord does not test Himself ....but we are tested for our loyalty to His cause. When we are faced with challenges and adversity, does our confession stand firm? Do our hearts continue to trust in His good-will for our lives?
and do we obey from the heart the command to love one another? Do we become passive about sin and fall into the devils trap?
I mean I really believe that these are questions that we need to ask ourselves. If we continue to draw closer to the Lord, then these challenges and adversity will be as tools to strengthen us for His purpose, but if we are seduced back into the worlds ways, then we have failed the test. This is the falling away, where hearts have turned against God saying "when is the promise of this coming", I have better things to do with my life then wait on this supposed Hope. There are women to meet, parties to go to, money to make, cars to race, etc.
There is no one that can convince me that we cannot be lured back into the world by seducing spirits. Do we say then that Christ was not sufficient to retain these men who fall away.
Absolutely not, we say that when the offer came from the devil, the man was easily baited because His love for the Lord had grown cold.
Once again we see the importance of love.....this love being the love we have towards the Lord.
I have often heard its all about relationship...and I really do agree with that. I hope I have helped paint a sketch of how that relationship should exist. I am a firm believer that salvation requires God and man to effect it. God who makes the offer, and we who accept the offer under His terms....or a faithful God and a faithful follower. A faithful follower meaning when God has presented the case, we say "Yes, Lord!"
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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New Testament OBEDIENCE is to believe, and not WHAT (other than to say the finished work, which He is) but WHO!
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
I have put this verse in to illustrate something about the unsaved, that they are not judged until judgment day (yet some have no shame to do so anyway). However those who say that they know Him are judged from the time that they believe, whether they are in or out of His Grace, whether they are wheat, or tare, sheep, or goat, wood, hay and stubble maker, or a faith tree with branches wherein the fowl of the air may lodge. You don’t have to guess (i.e. abide in darkness). Don’t get before Him and say you guessed He wanted this, when He asks you what you did while here.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
We think of the word here as verses of scripture. The deeper meaning is that it is Jesus, the begotten, the sword, who judges us in a living way. This is the judgment that slays unbelief (as evidenced by the passage above), whether we believe unto Him as a Historical fact, a future judge, or a deliverer right now, a power to LIVE by even as we walk!
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he ABIDETH IN HIM ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Kept from sinning…. Ministering Him (in all the various ways), healing the hurt, edifying the saints, being beacons that attract men to Him. Isn’t that how He walked, reproving the works of darkness and unbelief, drawing men by His love?
Look! Jehovah’s Witnesses (I meanly call them joke of a witnesses) can point to Jesus and get people to believe something, but are they who believe ‘something’ about Jesus, joined to Jesus by what they believe. Not so. They are far separate from Him by unbelief, or in that case, perverse belief. Their belief is wasted, fruitless. He is no where near them. They are not joined to Him by what they believe, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that you are joined to Him, and He saves, present tense, heals, delivers and manifests His works by you because you believe. What part of that will you argue with? Really! You can slave away working for Him and He will say “I never knew you.” Knowing is intimate, not imaginary. If you imagine that your works will be accepted by Him, God help us both, because I do not want to see it happen to you, or anyone.
He said of Israel, “You honor me with your lips, but your heart is far from me.” If you believe, He will manifest Himself to you, and be in you. By Him you will live and see His salvation, of yourself, and of the world. For He will perform it because you trust Him to.
Self righteousness is thinking that you can 'do' anything to please Him, other than to believe and receive what He has done for you, and will do for others if you will let Him instead of trying to do it yourself.
Law = Earning = Doing. Grace = Promise = expecting = Having! Clap Clap!
Well fiddles. Guess i'll stand down, maybe talk about Revelation or something for a while.
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Michael Harrison
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becauseHelives
Thank you for this huge smile! God bless ya too!
I have this confidence in that I am seated with Him in heavenly places as we speak.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: in that he that judgeth me is the Lord.
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Michael Harrison
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[ oneinchrist said: But, if you stated that we don’t need to respond inwardly to the gospel message,]
Responding inwardly is exactly what is required; responding inwardly by belief unto the heart and soul of creation: Jesus! The gospel message is a person! That person lives! We obey ‘by Him’. Until we understand that, we ‘try’ to obey unto Him, in a sense, separate from Him. We live by Him. We obey by Him, or, we offer a sacrifice of counterfeit obedience, a work of the flesh, the sin of Cain.
The soul is filled with religiosity after one is saved. Restless, we try to imitate as a substitute for obedience by Him. “The pride of life, the lust of the eye, and the lust of the flesh is not of the Father.” Do you know that you can even have a lust to preach? If it is not His will for you, and you are, you no doubt do it out of lust (therefore by the old man who doesn’t know he is dead)! It seems perfectly right, but is it Jesus? It would be a case of your trying to please Him, but is it Him? Only if you are one with Him will you know.
When scripture says that He sticks closer than a brother, it is an understatement. Ask, “What does it take to obey ‘by’ Him?” I’ll put it like this: That pretty story of ‘Footprints in the Sand’, is just that, for there is only one set of footprints in the sand if you are truly, from the heart believing in Him, that you are dead and buried, risen with Him from the dead. There is crisis in this discovery for every believer! Blessed.
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The natural man, and the old man are the same. These are they who are what they are apart from the Spirit and revelation of our Lord, and survive by some type of continuing unbelief, causing the old nature to coexist with the indwelling Spirit (creating muddy water). This should not be so, and if one looks at themselves in the light of scripture, this should clear up. For “Whatsoever doth make manifest is light.” (Eph5:13)
1Co 2:14 But the natural man [still in the believer] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It goes back to washing of the world, flesh and devil out of our heart that we may see.
In Eph 4:22, 23, 24 Paul says that we are to ‘put off’ the old man. Again, he survives by unbelief, that is, not so perfect belief which is in our heart. This is a specific instruction, essential to the fruitfulness of our understanding. In truth, look to Jesus and say this if you are honest: “Lord Jesus, I believe that I am cleaving to, embracing the ‘old man’. I want to confess this to you. You know what to do.”
There is no shortage of words in the Gospels red letters concerning this. Are you ready?
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becauseHElives
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Hello Michael, and to all on the board....
Michael please listen with your heart to what I am speaking....
What does the scripture say Yahweh will one day judge?
1. a persons doctrine
2. a persons heart
I hope everyone understands it is the heart that will one day be judge!
Michael you make the mistake of many in this day we live, to disassociate the humans responsibility from the work of the cross in the lives of the believers.
I have a choice every moment of everyday to choice whom I will obey.
I choice what I will allow my eyes to see, it was not a sin for David to go to his roof to look at the sights outside that were in his view that were lawful for him to see, but when he saw Bethesda he did not do what he knew was right which would be to have closed his eye turn and run from the temptation as Joseph did in his situation.
Instead David he desired and took that which lead him to a great downfall.
The little children song is so needful for all to place deep in their heart....
be careful little eyes what you see
be careful little ears what you hear
be careful little feet where you go
sin is conceived in the heart because we obey not the Laws of Yahweh, we obey the Laws because we love Yahweh, we are able to keep the Law because Yeshua has conquered sin in His death, burial and resurrection and sent all that confess His Name and Believe (OBEY) with their heart all that is accomplish by His great Love the Precious Holy Spirit to accomplish His Grace in our hearts.
The straight gate Yeshua the one and only way to Eternal Life....
The narrow way obedience to all scripture from Genesis to Revelation by walking in the Spirit from a heart that is broken before a Great, Holy, Righteous, Loving GOD and Father
Faith without obedience is dead!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
I read your posts and I have no desire to argue against your convictions. It appears that the confidence you have comes from an apparent understanding of what it means to be "in Christ" and for Christ to live in us.
I spend most of my time re-reading the gospels. Its not that I don't trust the others books, its just that I have a preferance for the Words of Christ over any other. If you could see me study scripture, you would notice me use the gospels as an anchor point going back and forth comparing to other scriptures. I always prefer scripture with the red print that indicates the Lord speaking.
I want you to understand that when I speak of obedience, I am not referring to an outward compliance....but I am referring to an inward response to the gospel message. So, when you speak about not needing to do anything, I would agree with you in respect to outward compliance....But, if you stated that we dont need to respond inwardly to the gospel message, I would highly disagree. I believe that this heart response of ours is required (essential). It is proof that we have come into agreement with God and His truth. What happens after this can be a whole array of things, but our Hope should be for a harvest that is brought about by our obedience to the Word of God, and the help of the Holy Spirit.
IWith love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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REJOICE!!
Why am I so adamant? Because I must be! I am compelled by the Holy Spirit for the edification of the saints, for the joy of the Lord’s heart.
Rom 7:18 “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. “ In other words, I cannot ‘do’ it. I can however have it – literally. I must humble myself way down – to having.
But I want to focus on that first part. “For I know that in my flesh dwelleth no good thing.” That includes even good intentions! Doing! Sincerity can be a work of the flesh. It is good that it brings us to God, thereafter it is abolished by the light, for “None is good but God.” These are Jesus’ words. Therefore sincerity must give way to Him, for my sincerity cannot add to Him anything.
Doing has associated with it the pride of doing. It is though you accomplish something and you get credit for it, which is worldly. The devil will give you credit for it. Believe me.
Doing would enable one to exalt one above another, attain more, but my Bible says that the least shall be the greatest. That is he who yields, not does. He yields in the faith that He (Living, abiding Jesus) IS doing it. For he that cometh to God must believe that he is. (If you don’t have that LIVING confidence, you will see nothing.)
Matter of fact, the devil will make you feel guilty for not doing if you don’t do something. You will feel like the Father is going to come down on you with a big stick. Well, that’s the devil too, and believe me, things don’t stop happening because you stop doing. Trust this; things begin to happen. He said “Greater things than these will you do because I go to my Father,” but remember who does the doing. It is a grape vine thing. He will pop those grapes right out there, because the sap will be able to flow through the vine, when the vine stops trying to do its own thing.
As long as you are doing, you displace Him. Doing makes you glory, and glorying puffs you up; and until you humble yourself to having, you are walking in the flesh, and the lust thereof. Believe me, He doesn’t share the Glory. It is His.
He that has entered his rest has ceased from his works. (Heb4:10) I mean,
you can’t make it any clearer than that. What are your own works? Doing, as if to get, have or cause something! If this were a Monopoly game, you would be trying to pass go, and collect 200 dollars by misreading the dice. That is not entering by the straight gate, and the narrow way.
In case you feel empty, frightened, because you consider to cease doing, I’ll say it again, for it to work you must believe that He is, has done, and will do! [See footnote] Heb 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a REWARDER of them that diligently seek him. “ This establishes you on the ROCK in a way that no amount of doing will. So, if the winds blow….
Sin is something you do. Life, forgiveness, deliverance from sin is something you have in the person of Jesus (do you ABIDE in Him?), not only, but something that He does; something He does because it is something He is. The life of Christ is the life that is not sin, and failure.
We like to focus on the Wine, for whosoever eats my body and drinks my blood….
The blood is the wine, which represents the Holy Spirit. That we comprehend. The body however, is totally ignored in teaching. The bread is the body of Christ. Joh 6:58 “This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.” We comprehend the wine, but we don’t get the bread. Joh 6:35 “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger.” That means you will never be without. The doing will be done. The having will be had. Joh 14:10 “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. “ (Jesus that dwelleth in me, oh believer, He doeth the works.) Jesus did not do, He yielded to. The body of Christ, the Bread, is the WORK OF GOD on your behalf, ultimately on His behalf. You can have it by not trying. Go tell the world that! They’ll think you are crazy, but they’ll want it. Jesus – My Lord! Amen.
Having is letting the Life of Christ into you!
REJOICE!!
Charles Trumbull says it in his book ‘Victory in Christ’ as well as it has ever been said. Quote, “He has done and is doing it all.”
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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Michael Harrison
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The passionate message of Paul, Peter, James and John to everyone was that THEY STILL LIVE, and the life of Jesus was yet beyond what they know. (Pardon my mixed tenses). The whole reason that all these writings were(are) necessary was to exhort believers to enter into the revelation of Christ their Life, not that they weren’t born again already, just that there was something ‘all important’ more to discover. Else, conceptual belief in Jesus would reign over them all. (Misplaced faith, will misplace you!) That would leave the door open to lots of strange variations of belief, each claiming the honor of holding the truth, each missing the narrow way. There is only one who lives.
The words “Enter at the straight gate, and narrow road,” narrow down the possibilities all the way, entirely, if one can receive it! It is narrow. In this manner, few there be that will enter in, and actually say that they are ‘Seated with Him in Heavenly Places’, instead of searching.
Many claim such passages as ‘Seated with Him in heavenly places,’ by faith. Sadly, it is not their reality. I recently heard this acronym RINO! It means Republican in Name Only. Faith is often like that. It is in name only – not their solid reality. While it is good to claim the scripture, He yearns for it to be fruitful reality.
OK. Regrettably, every reader of all of the writing of the Apostles, in their zeal, reads into the text, or out from it, what they must ‘do’, and they universally set about to ‘do’ it. But really hard verses which are in there are ignored. Therefore there is an uneven application of the word, because of intent of doing, and they don’t even begin to figure it out. If you do one or two whatevers, you have to do them all to walk as He walked. And due to pure blindness, all that they can see in the text is what they must do, which keeps them from entering His provision! No wonder there are denominations galore. All are ‘doing’. All are coming up short of the Glory of God. All they ‘do’, is do, and bicker about who is right. (That takes us to Corinthians)
[Really long post cause people to skim over some seriously rich comments which they should dwell on. I must try to keep this short.]
You cannot add anything to God by doing. You don’t keep His commands by ‘doing’, because for them to be kept, He has to keep them for you. This is what it means by ‘righteousness imparted’. Even repenting, though it sounds like doing, in reality you are dropping something to ‘receive’ something, which is the power to live above, not in slavery to, whatever you are called to repent of. Repentance therefore is actually turning from unbelief! There is not much doing in that. It is more of becoming enlightened because it is a gift to those who BELIEVE. Dig it! It becomes Believe – and Receive (not a lot of doing)! “I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE.”
Our Father is quite pleased for us to cooperate with Him in what He does by giving us some simple action, in some cases, to know the joy of sharing. Add this example to the above post of mine – the story of the blind man for whom Jesus made mud from dirt and spittle.
I have wondered at times in the past why Jesus asked people to do the odd little simple things instead of just receiving their miracle, which did some. In this case, he first made mud, and placed it on the eyes of the blind man and told him simply “go wash.” Ok, first; the blindness of the man’s eyes represents symbolically, the heart of man. The mud represents the ‘world, the flesh, and the devil’. Washing represents the cleansing of the word. What was the point of his washing? It was such a simple thing to do. What did it mean though? This simple action demonstrated that he believed, therefore he could receive miraculous provision.
It probably was as important to the man to demonstrate to himself that he believed, as anything else. But the symbolism here is the washing of the world from the eyes of the believer. “If the eye is single, the body will be full of light.” If you are truly reconciled to Christ, you will see through His eyes, with His heart, not through a dirty heart of unbelief. You will be led of the Spirit because you are not ‘doing’ anything to confound the working of the Spirit.
Trying to do the will of God PLUGS THE PIPE! God has now restored us to the Garden of Eden, by Jesus. Strive to enter at the straight gate means – Don’t Sweat!
“If you will simply believe me in your heart, I have provided for you. I am your provision! I have taken the work out of it, my gift to you. I love you my child. Live by my life. Live by me!”
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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WildB
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posted
"Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
Whoever claims to walk in him must live as Jesus did.
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That is all.....
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KnowHim
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He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21
1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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WildB
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John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
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posted
if we look closely at the message Yeshua is conveying there are two key points we must observe .....
1st the straight gate, the entrance into the Kingdom which is none other than Yeshua Himself, for the Scriptures are emphatic the Yeshua's Blood, His sacrifice, His Grace is the only entrance to the forgiveness of Yahweh, the Heavenly Father.
But we cannot forget the rest of Yeshua's word... we cannot add to or take away from the word of Yahweh the second point we must pay attention to is the path the Narrow Way after we enter through the door...
Now if a person is Born Again, we say that (if we agree with the Scriptures ) Yahweh has placed His Spirit in this person, that person is a New Creature, that Yahweh has given them a heart of flesh, taken away the heart of stone that existed before the life of Yeshua entered.
I cannot deny that after the New Birth a war begins in the soul of the New Creature, the scriptures declare it and I have experienced it.
The is because the New Birth does not take away my free will, my choice to now by walking after the Spirit not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
The individual that does not understand this will never make the Kingdom of Yahweh his Eternal Home.
The question of Once Saved Always Saved verse Salvation Lost has existed for almost 2000 years, men and women with far greater Scripture Knowledge than I have debated and the question still go on.
I am only going to say this at this time....
Yeshua said the Parable of the Sower is the Key to understanding everything He taught....
Yeshua told His disciples "you cannot understand any of my doctrine, teaching unless you understand this Parable"
Yeshua taught about one seed being sowed, the Word of Yahweh and four types of soil (hearts of mankind).
I only want to mention the second type of soil (Heart)....
There is no mistake that the seed found entrance into the heart and began to grow, this mean the person found Yeshua the straight gate and entered the great race on the narrow path but because of the stones that remain coexistent in the New Heart of flesh, the life that once existed in them dried up and died.
It is all about Yeshua, He has done it all but we must walk by the Spirit to maintain the life that has been placed in earthen vessels.
I have more to say but I am pressed for time at the moment
May all be bless in knowledge and understanding of the wonderful Lord, Savior, Master, King and friend like now other Yeshua as we all strive together in the unity of the Spirit until we come together in the unity of the Faith.
My heart is not to be right but that none should perish but all come to true repentance and a true Saving knowledge that Yeshua is the only way.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Do you believe that a person can be saved without obeying Christ?
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
With love in Christ, Daniel
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Michael Harrison
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I had intended not to dibble in this gate post at all, however after a struggle :-} i gave in. By the way, i don't intend for the caps to be shouting!
Moses struck the rock. What did he have to do with the water rushing out? He raised his hands at the Red Sea. What did he have to do with the waters parting? Joshua marched around Jericho, and blew the horn. What did he have to do with the walls crumbling down? Acts 8:29 By obedience Phillip ‘joined’ the chariot nothing frightning, or complicated. He did the simple part, which is transparent to the work of God, simple obedience if you feel you must focus on such.
Things progressed from on high, from there; however, not one of these servants made anything to happen. They just followed after! The trouble with the darkness that is in the soul when one is not yielded by obedience of faith, is that, universally, as believers, we think that we can make things happen. We don’t! We have them in Christ as we follow after. ('Done', as He has spoken, which is why He has said to possess the land.)
The doctrine of obedience puts people under condemnation. People think, what do I do if I fail? It creates apprehension because they think that they are supposed to accomplish great things, and the devil uses it to cause doubt, as a tool to discourage us. He uses doing, to defeat us, because as long as he can make us err in this fashion thinking we are accomplishing something for the Lord, he is able to impede God our Lord, causing us to literally tie His hands with superfluity of zeal, carnal well-wishing. See, people read the word thinking that they understand. Then they set out to do what they think they understand, but the understanding isn’t fruitful.
Isa 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. “
And this is exactly what the focus on the narrow gate is about; the fact that the doers are not going through the narrow gate to find Him, and accomplish His will - by Him. The receivers, by faith alone (hearing) are going in through the narrow gate, which is the faith of Jesus and in Jesus, moreover, which is by Jesus, (not buddah, by the way).
You are given a little part to do, but you are not ‘doing’ anything. If you have the faith of hearing, He is.
In scripture, we are compared to clay pots. A coffee cup is a clay pot. A coffee cup holds coffee; but what is it doing? A coffee cup pours coffee in sips as the drinker drinks, but what is it doing? It has a function, but it does not perform it.
Man is not intended to ‘do’, which is to say obey, which is to say, try to make anything happen. He is to have. God is the Lord.
Blessed is he that is not self assured.
Paul, in his obedience, had within himself the command to lead the saints to the revelation of understanding of our Lord. As evidenced by the epistles, saints, who had been baptized into the Body of Christ, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, clearly, as evidenced by the epistles, felt like, “We are not sure that we agree with you on every jot and tittle, but we love you Paul (some didn’t). Here was Paul’s recourse dealing with that rebelliousness of the flesh:
2Co 10:1 Now I Paul, myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
[AROUND YOU I SEEM TIMID, NOT A GODLY TOWER OF HIS POWER that commands your attention.]
2Co 10:2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present, with that confidence wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
[SOME OF YOU THINK THAT I AM JUST ANOTHER VOICE WHO KNOWS JUST AS LITTLE ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP AS THE NEXT MAN. YOU THINK WE WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE PRESCRIBED WAY OF THE SPIRIT, BUT BY A TOUCHY, FEELY, GROPING OF THE WAY, JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE TRYING TO KNOW HIM IN THIS NEW DISPENSATION OF THE SPIRIT.]
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[WE WALK IN NATURAL BODIES, BUT ARE SOLD OUT TO THE SPIRIT INWARDLY, AND THE AUTORITY BY WHICH WE SPEAK IS NOT OF OURSELF.]
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[IMAGINATIONS AND HIGH THINGS WHICH YOU HOLD TRUE, BUT WHICH ARE CARNAL IMAGINATIONS, PREVENTING YOU FROM KNOWING GOD YOUR LORD COMPLETELY AND PERSONALLY, the way I Paul know Him. 1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. ]
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2Co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
[THE WORDS WE GIVE YOU ARE NOT SELF INVENTED. YOU ARE SELF ASSURED, NOT A GOOD THING. YOU ARE DISCERNING OUTWARD APPEARANCE ONLY AND COMPARING WITH WHAT YOU KNOW ACCORDING TO YOUR NOT-YET-PERFECT UNDERSTANDING, THINKING YOU ARE FULLY CHRIST'S. but in the flesh.]
2Co 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themseves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
[THEREFORE SPEAK WE NOT OF OURSELVES, we are not comparing ourselves with ourselves but with the one!]
Blessed is he that is not self assured.
To cap an important fact: Until we know what it really means to 'put Him first', rather than assume things about Him, of which we are evidently self convinced, we don't know Him as a sword, and power, but wresting the scriptures to our destruction, we fall short of His Glory. We have this command that His Glory should be manifest in the Earth!
I am going to draw from Brother Norman on this one. You are not supposed to be somebody, or do something. You are supposed to contain someone!
It is not what you do 'for' Jesus: That will fail. What you do 'by' Jesus will abide for eternity. This requires completely unmistakable alignment with Him as the straight gate and narrow way, Himself doing the works.
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oneinchrist
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Hi guys,
I agree.....following Jesus is the narrow gate. I wholeheartedly believe that the will of God was clearly revealed in the transfiguaration on the mount when the voice that came out of the cloud, said, This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!"
When I was doing a study on the word "hear", as in "Hear Him!" I could not find the word "hear" in my Wycliffe Bible dictionary, but interestingly, under the definition of obedience, it adresses it exhaustively.
This is what it states...........
The Heb. and Gr. words translated by "obey" or "obedience" are usually shama' and cognate forms of akouo, both of which carry the basic meaning of "hearing." In fact, many times when the translator confronts these words and their cognates it is very difficult to determine whether "hear" or "obey" is the most appropriate rendering. This difficulty, however, gives an insight into the basic biblical concept of obedience, a concept which holds for both the OT and NT.
Although obedience expresses an action which can exist in ordinary human relationships (such as servants to masters or children to parents), its most significant reference is to a relationship that should exist between man and God. God reveals Himself to man by His voice and words. Words are intended to be heard. This obviously involves a physical reception of the words with a presumed mental apprehension of their meaning.
But in terms of man's reception of God's revelation, this in itself is not true hearing. True hearing is faith which receives the divine Word and translates it into action. It is a faith response. It is a positive, active response, not merely passive listening and consideration. To hear is to act. In other words, to really hear God's Word is to obey God's Word. In the NT the idea of putting oneself under responsibility to obey the heard Word is clearly emphasized by hupakouo, a compound of "under" and "hear."
Many passages referring to hearing and obedience obviously have this matter of positive, active response in view. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt 11:15;cf. 13:9, 43; Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 13:9, NASB). See Ear. The wise man is the one who "hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them" (Mt 7:24). "My sheep hear my voice.....and they follow me" (Jn 10:27). With regard to the revelation he had received on Patmos, John said, "Blessed are....those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it" (Rev 1:3, NASB). There is to be no dichotomy between hearing and obedience. True hearing is obedience. Faith itself involves obedience, and Jesus, Paul, and James make it quite clear that true faith issues in obedience. END.
I remember one time I asked this young pastor a question that had troubled me for a long while. I asked him "how do you preach about Christ as a "free gift" , yet at the same time, let them know that they must follow Christ under His terms?.......his answer was "good question, that is not an easy thing to do because Christ says that we must deny ourselves."
This famous preacher(Kennedy) that died recently had this question that he used to like to ask a lot of people. It was "If you died and came into the Lords presence and He said to you...."why should I let you in?"..what would you say?"
Now I know the answer that Kennedy wanted to hear was "Lord, because of what you have done"..................I thought about this scenario for a little while and I put my self in those circumstances, but then this thought came to my mind that was to me a conviction. So lets say that I told Jesus......."I believe that you should let me in because of what you have done"........but what if then Jesus looked at me and said "Daniel, if you had believed in what I had done, why then did you not obey my words?" "If you had believed that I had forgiven you, why did you not forgive your brother Dave, your friend Ron, and your sister in law Mary?
With love in Christ, Daniel
But in terms of man's reception of God's revelation, this in itself is not true hearing. True hearing is faith which receives the divine Word and translates it into action
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
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Wonderfully said #1, bless our Lord. Amen.
"I am the GATE, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but BY me."
And the Gate Keeper said to the person who knocked, "Have you invested your heart to believe in me, and turned loose of those things that do not matter? Enter thou into my presence wonderful little child of mine. Let me hug you, and squeeze you, and rejoice before my Father with you here in my arms."
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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