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Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
brother, in your opinion, what does this narrow gate look like?
Is what Jesus did on the cross the narrow gate?
John 10:7
Then said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
When compared to the world and all of its philosophies, choosing Jesus and His death and resurrection instead of the rest, that IS a narrow gate.
May I ask you, becauseHElives, What does the gatekeeper of the narrow gate ask anyone who tries to enter the narrow gate?
And let's say that some AdamandEve person MAKES IT THROUGH THE NARROW GATE BY PERMISSION FROM ITS GUARD, at that poin the AdamandEve person is a CHRISTIAN right, even if they stay close to the narrow gate after that?
They are STILL in the kingdom of God aren't they, as long as they are on the INSIDE of the narrow gate? Help me out here...
with love,
Eden
Eden, that is a great question! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
I hope to hear what others have to say?
I will try to respond soon.
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
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The gate is narrow and few find it. Not because God hides it from them, but because few are willing to pay the price to truly follow Jesus.
It looks like Jesus. It is not a real gate but is refering to Jesus.
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6 (NKJV)
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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Wonderfully said #1, bless our Lord. Amen.
"I am the GATE, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but BY me."
And the Gate Keeper said to the person who knocked, "Have you invested your heart to believe in me, and turned loose of those things that do not matter? Enter thou into my presence wonderful little child of mine. Let me hug you, and squeeze you, and rejoice before my Father with you here in my arms."
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi guys,
I agree.....following Jesus is the narrow gate. I wholeheartedly believe that the will of God was clearly revealed in the transfiguaration on the mount when the voice that came out of the cloud, said, This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!"
When I was doing a study on the word "hear", as in "Hear Him!" I could not find the word "hear" in my Wycliffe Bible dictionary, but interestingly, under the definition of obedience, it adresses it exhaustively.
This is what it states...........
The Heb. and Gr. words translated by "obey" or "obedience" are usually shama' and cognate forms of akouo, both of which carry the basic meaning of "hearing." In fact, many times when the translator confronts these words and their cognates it is very difficult to determine whether "hear" or "obey" is the most appropriate rendering. This difficulty, however, gives an insight into the basic biblical concept of obedience, a concept which holds for both the OT and NT.
Although obedience expresses an action which can exist in ordinary human relationships (such as servants to masters or children to parents), its most significant reference is to a relationship that should exist between man and God. God reveals Himself to man by His voice and words. Words are intended to be heard. This obviously involves a physical reception of the words with a presumed mental apprehension of their meaning.
But in terms of man's reception of God's revelation, this in itself is not true hearing. True hearing is faith which receives the divine Word and translates it into action. It is a faith response. It is a positive, active response, not merely passive listening and consideration. To hear is to act. In other words, to really hear God's Word is to obey God's Word. In the NT the idea of putting oneself under responsibility to obey the heard Word is clearly emphasized by hupakouo, a compound of "under" and "hear."
Many passages referring to hearing and obedience obviously have this matter of positive, active response in view. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt 11:15;cf. 13:9, 43; Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22; 13:9, NASB). See Ear. The wise man is the one who "hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them" (Mt 7:24). "My sheep hear my voice.....and they follow me" (Jn 10:27). With regard to the revelation he had received on Patmos, John said, "Blessed are....those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it" (Rev 1:3, NASB). There is to be no dichotomy between hearing and obedience. True hearing is obedience. Faith itself involves obedience, and Jesus, Paul, and James make it quite clear that true faith issues in obedience. END.
I remember one time I asked this young pastor a question that had troubled me for a long while. I asked him "how do you preach about Christ as a "free gift" , yet at the same time, let them know that they must follow Christ under His terms?.......his answer was "good question, that is not an easy thing to do because Christ says that we must deny ourselves."
This famous preacher(Kennedy) that died recently had this question that he used to like to ask a lot of people. It was "If you died and came into the Lords presence and He said to you...."why should I let you in?"..what would you say?"
Now I know the answer that Kennedy wanted to hear was "Lord, because of what you have done"..................I thought about this scenario for a little while and I put my self in those circumstances, but then this thought came to my mind that was to me a conviction. So lets say that I told Jesus......."I believe that you should let me in because of what you have done"........but what if then Jesus looked at me and said "Daniel, if you had believed in what I had done, why then did you not obey my words?" "If you had believed that I had forgiven you, why did you not forgive your brother Dave, your friend Ron, and your sister in law Mary?
With love in Christ, Daniel
But in terms of man's reception of God's revelation, this in itself is not true hearing. True hearing is faith which receives the divine Word and translates it into action
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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I had intended not to dibble in this gate post at all, however after a struggle :-} i gave in. By the way, i don't intend for the caps to be shouting!
Moses struck the rock. What did he have to do with the water rushing out? He raised his hands at the Red Sea. What did he have to do with the waters parting? Joshua marched around Jericho, and blew the horn. What did he have to do with the walls crumbling down? Acts 8:29 By obedience Phillip ‘joined’ the chariot nothing frightning, or complicated. He did the simple part, which is transparent to the work of God, simple obedience if you feel you must focus on such.
Things progressed from on high, from there; however, not one of these servants made anything to happen. They just followed after! The trouble with the darkness that is in the soul when one is not yielded by obedience of faith, is that, universally, as believers, we think that we can make things happen. We don’t! We have them in Christ as we follow after. ('Done', as He has spoken, which is why He has said to possess the land.)
The doctrine of obedience puts people under condemnation. People think, what do I do if I fail? It creates apprehension because they think that they are supposed to accomplish great things, and the devil uses it to cause doubt, as a tool to discourage us. He uses doing, to defeat us, because as long as he can make us err in this fashion thinking we are accomplishing something for the Lord, he is able to impede God our Lord, causing us to literally tie His hands with superfluity of zeal, carnal well-wishing. See, people read the word thinking that they understand. Then they set out to do what they think they understand, but the understanding isn’t fruitful.
Isa 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. “
And this is exactly what the focus on the narrow gate is about; the fact that the doers are not going through the narrow gate to find Him, and accomplish His will - by Him. The receivers, by faith alone (hearing) are going in through the narrow gate, which is the faith of Jesus and in Jesus, moreover, which is by Jesus, (not buddah, by the way).
You are given a little part to do, but you are not ‘doing’ anything. If you have the faith of hearing, He is.
In scripture, we are compared to clay pots. A coffee cup is a clay pot. A coffee cup holds coffee; but what is it doing? A coffee cup pours coffee in sips as the drinker drinks, but what is it doing? It has a function, but it does not perform it.
Man is not intended to ‘do’, which is to say obey, which is to say, try to make anything happen. He is to have. God is the Lord.
Blessed is he that is not self assured.
Paul, in his obedience, had within himself the command to lead the saints to the revelation of understanding of our Lord. As evidenced by the epistles, saints, who had been baptized into the Body of Christ, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, clearly, as evidenced by the epistles, felt like, “We are not sure that we agree with you on every jot and tittle, but we love you Paul (some didn’t). Here was Paul’s recourse dealing with that rebelliousness of the flesh:
2Co 10:1 Now I Paul, myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you:
[AROUND YOU I SEEM TIMID, NOT A GODLY TOWER OF HIS POWER that commands your attention.]
2Co 10:2 But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present, with that confidence wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.
[SOME OF YOU THINK THAT I AM JUST ANOTHER VOICE WHO KNOWS JUST AS LITTLE ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP AS THE NEXT MAN. YOU THINK WE WALK NOT ACCORDING TO THE PRESCRIBED WAY OF THE SPIRIT, BUT BY A TOUCHY, FEELY, GROPING OF THE WAY, JUST LIKE ANYBODY ELSE TRYING TO KNOW HIM IN THIS NEW DISPENSATION OF THE SPIRIT.]
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
[WE WALK IN NATURAL BODIES, BUT ARE SOLD OUT TO THE SPIRIT INWARDLY, AND THE AUTORITY BY WHICH WE SPEAK IS NOT OF OURSELF.]
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
[IMAGINATIONS AND HIGH THINGS WHICH YOU HOLD TRUE, BUT WHICH ARE CARNAL IMAGINATIONS, PREVENTING YOU FROM KNOWING GOD YOUR LORD COMPLETELY AND PERSONALLY, the way I Paul know Him. 1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. ]
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
2Co 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
[THE WORDS WE GIVE YOU ARE NOT SELF INVENTED. YOU ARE SELF ASSURED, NOT A GOOD THING. YOU ARE DISCERNING OUTWARD APPEARANCE ONLY AND COMPARING WITH WHAT YOU KNOW ACCORDING TO YOUR NOT-YET-PERFECT UNDERSTANDING, THINKING YOU ARE FULLY CHRIST'S. but in the flesh.]
2Co 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themseves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
[THEREFORE SPEAK WE NOT OF OURSELVES, we are not comparing ourselves with ourselves but with the one!]
Blessed is he that is not self assured.
To cap an important fact: Until we know what it really means to 'put Him first', rather than assume things about Him, of which we are evidently self convinced, we don't know Him as a sword, and power, but wresting the scriptures to our destruction, we fall short of His Glory. We have this command that His Glory should be manifest in the Earth!
I am going to draw from Brother Norman on this one. You are not supposed to be somebody, or do something. You are supposed to contain someone!
It is not what you do 'for' Jesus: That will fail. What you do 'by' Jesus will abide for eternity. This requires completely unmistakable alignment with Him as the straight gate and narrow way, Himself doing the works.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Do you believe that a person can be saved without obeying Christ?
Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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if we look closely at the message Yeshua is conveying there are two key points we must observe .....
1st the straight gate, the entrance into the Kingdom which is none other than Yeshua Himself, for the Scriptures are emphatic the Yeshua's Blood, His sacrifice, His Grace is the only entrance to the forgiveness of Yahweh, the Heavenly Father.
But we cannot forget the rest of Yeshua's word... we cannot add to or take away from the word of Yahweh the second point we must pay attention to is the path the Narrow Way after we enter through the door...
Now if a person is Born Again, we say that (if we agree with the Scriptures ) Yahweh has placed His Spirit in this person, that person is a New Creature, that Yahweh has given them a heart of flesh, taken away the heart of stone that existed before the life of Yeshua entered.
I cannot deny that after the New Birth a war begins in the soul of the New Creature, the scriptures declare it and I have experienced it.
The is because the New Birth does not take away my free will, my choice to now by walking after the Spirit not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
The individual that does not understand this will never make the Kingdom of Yahweh his Eternal Home.
The question of Once Saved Always Saved verse Salvation Lost has existed for almost 2000 years, men and women with far greater Scripture Knowledge than I have debated and the question still go on.
I am only going to say this at this time....
Yeshua said the Parable of the Sower is the Key to understanding everything He taught....
Yeshua told His disciples "you cannot understand any of my doctrine, teaching unless you understand this Parable"
Yeshua taught about one seed being sowed, the Word of Yahweh and four types of soil (hearts of mankind).
I only want to mention the second type of soil (Heart)....
There is no mistake that the seed found entrance into the heart and began to grow, this mean the person found Yeshua the straight gate and entered the great race on the narrow path but because of the stones that remain coexistent in the New Heart of flesh, the life that once existed in them dried up and died.
It is all about Yeshua, He has done it all but we must walk by the Spirit to maintain the life that has been placed in earthen vessels.
I have more to say but I am pressed for time at the moment
May all be bless in knowledge and understanding of the wonderful Lord, Savior, Master, King and friend like now other Yeshua as we all strive together in the unity of the Spirit until we come together in the unity of the Faith.
My heart is not to be right but that none should perish but all come to true repentance and a true Saving knowledge that Yeshua is the only way.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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John 10:1
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
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He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him. - John 14:21
1 John 2:3-6 (NIV)
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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"Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."
Whoever claims to walk in him must live as Jesus did.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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The passionate message of Paul, Peter, James and John to everyone was that THEY STILL LIVE, and the life of Jesus was yet beyond what they know. (Pardon my mixed tenses). The whole reason that all these writings were(are) necessary was to exhort believers to enter into the revelation of Christ their Life, not that they weren’t born again already, just that there was something ‘all important’ more to discover. Else, conceptual belief in Jesus would reign over them all. (Misplaced faith, will misplace you!) That would leave the door open to lots of strange variations of belief, each claiming the honor of holding the truth, each missing the narrow way. There is only one who lives.
The words “Enter at the straight gate, and narrow road,” narrow down the possibilities all the way, entirely, if one can receive it! It is narrow. In this manner, few there be that will enter in, and actually say that they are ‘Seated with Him in Heavenly Places’, instead of searching.
Many claim such passages as ‘Seated with Him in heavenly places,’ by faith. Sadly, it is not their reality. I recently heard this acronym RINO! It means Republican in Name Only. Faith is often like that. It is in name only – not their solid reality. While it is good to claim the scripture, He yearns for it to be fruitful reality.
OK. Regrettably, every reader of all of the writing of the Apostles, in their zeal, reads into the text, or out from it, what they must ‘do’, and they universally set about to ‘do’ it. But really hard verses which are in there are ignored. Therefore there is an uneven application of the word, because of intent of doing, and they don’t even begin to figure it out. If you do one or two whatevers, you have to do them all to walk as He walked. And due to pure blindness, all that they can see in the text is what they must do, which keeps them from entering His provision! No wonder there are denominations galore. All are ‘doing’. All are coming up short of the Glory of God. All they ‘do’, is do, and bicker about who is right. (That takes us to Corinthians)
[Really long post cause people to skim over some seriously rich comments which they should dwell on. I must try to keep this short.]
You cannot add anything to God by doing. You don’t keep His commands by ‘doing’, because for them to be kept, He has to keep them for you. This is what it means by ‘righteousness imparted’. Even repenting, though it sounds like doing, in reality you are dropping something to ‘receive’ something, which is the power to live above, not in slavery to, whatever you are called to repent of. Repentance therefore is actually turning from unbelief! There is not much doing in that. It is more of becoming enlightened because it is a gift to those who BELIEVE. Dig it! It becomes Believe – and Receive (not a lot of doing)! “I am the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE.”
Our Father is quite pleased for us to cooperate with Him in what He does by giving us some simple action, in some cases, to know the joy of sharing. Add this example to the above post of mine – the story of the blind man for whom Jesus made mud from dirt and spittle.
I have wondered at times in the past why Jesus asked people to do the odd little simple things instead of just receiving their miracle, which did some. In this case, he first made mud, and placed it on the eyes of the blind man and told him simply “go wash.” Ok, first; the blindness of the man’s eyes represents symbolically, the heart of man. The mud represents the ‘world, the flesh, and the devil’. Washing represents the cleansing of the word. What was the point of his washing? It was such a simple thing to do. What did it mean though? This simple action demonstrated that he believed, therefore he could receive miraculous provision.
It probably was as important to the man to demonstrate to himself that he believed, as anything else. But the symbolism here is the washing of the world from the eyes of the believer. “If the eye is single, the body will be full of light.” If you are truly reconciled to Christ, you will see through His eyes, with His heart, not through a dirty heart of unbelief. You will be led of the Spirit because you are not ‘doing’ anything to confound the working of the Spirit.
Trying to do the will of God PLUGS THE PIPE! God has now restored us to the Garden of Eden, by Jesus. Strive to enter at the straight gate means – Don’t Sweat!
“If you will simply believe me in your heart, I have provided for you. I am your provision! I have taken the work out of it, my gift to you. I love you my child. Live by my life. Live by me!”
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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REJOICE!!
Why am I so adamant? Because I must be! I am compelled by the Holy Spirit for the edification of the saints, for the joy of the Lord’s heart.
Rom 7:18 “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. “ In other words, I cannot ‘do’ it. I can however have it – literally. I must humble myself way down – to having.
But I want to focus on that first part. “For I know that in my flesh dwelleth no good thing.” That includes even good intentions! Doing! Sincerity can be a work of the flesh. It is good that it brings us to God, thereafter it is abolished by the light, for “None is good but God.” These are Jesus’ words. Therefore sincerity must give way to Him, for my sincerity cannot add to Him anything.
Doing has associated with it the pride of doing. It is though you accomplish something and you get credit for it, which is worldly. The devil will give you credit for it. Believe me.
Doing would enable one to exalt one above another, attain more, but my Bible says that the least shall be the greatest. That is he who yields, not does. He yields in the faith that He (Living, abiding Jesus) IS doing it. For he that cometh to God must believe that he is. (If you don’t have that LIVING confidence, you will see nothing.)
Matter of fact, the devil will make you feel guilty for not doing if you don’t do something. You will feel like the Father is going to come down on you with a big stick. Well, that’s the devil too, and believe me, things don’t stop happening because you stop doing. Trust this; things begin to happen. He said “Greater things than these will you do because I go to my Father,” but remember who does the doing. It is a grape vine thing. He will pop those grapes right out there, because the sap will be able to flow through the vine, when the vine stops trying to do its own thing.
As long as you are doing, you displace Him. Doing makes you glory, and glorying puffs you up; and until you humble yourself to having, you are walking in the flesh, and the lust thereof. Believe me, He doesn’t share the Glory. It is His.
He that has entered his rest has ceased from his works. (Heb4:10) I mean,
you can’t make it any clearer than that. What are your own works? Doing, as if to get, have or cause something! If this were a Monopoly game, you would be trying to pass go, and collect 200 dollars by misreading the dice. That is not entering by the straight gate, and the narrow way.
In case you feel empty, frightened, because you consider to cease doing, I’ll say it again, for it to work you must believe that He is, has done, and will do! [See footnote] Heb 11:6 “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a REWARDER of them that diligently seek him. “ This establishes you on the ROCK in a way that no amount of doing will. So, if the winds blow….
Sin is something you do. Life, forgiveness, deliverance from sin is something you have in the person of Jesus (do you ABIDE in Him?), not only, but something that He does; something He does because it is something He is. The life of Christ is the life that is not sin, and failure.
We like to focus on the Wine, for whosoever eats my body and drinks my blood….
The blood is the wine, which represents the Holy Spirit. That we comprehend. The body however, is totally ignored in teaching. The bread is the body of Christ. Joh 6:58 “This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.” We comprehend the wine, but we don’t get the bread. Joh 6:35 “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger.” That means you will never be without. The doing will be done. The having will be had. Joh 14:10 “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. “ (Jesus that dwelleth in me, oh believer, He doeth the works.) Jesus did not do, He yielded to. The body of Christ, the Bread, is the WORK OF GOD on your behalf, ultimately on His behalf. You can have it by not trying. Go tell the world that! They’ll think you are crazy, but they’ll want it. Jesus – My Lord! Amen.
Having is letting the Life of Christ into you!
REJOICE!!
Charles Trumbull says it in his book ‘Victory in Christ’ as well as it has ever been said. Quote, “He has done and is doing it all.”
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
I read your posts and I have no desire to argue against your convictions. It appears that the confidence you have comes from an apparent understanding of what it means to be "in Christ" and for Christ to live in us.
I spend most of my time re-reading the gospels. Its not that I don't trust the others books, its just that I have a preferance for the Words of Christ over any other. If you could see me study scripture, you would notice me use the gospels as an anchor point going back and forth comparing to other scriptures. I always prefer scripture with the red print that indicates the Lord speaking.
I want you to understand that when I speak of obedience, I am not referring to an outward compliance....but I am referring to an inward response to the gospel message. So, when you speak about not needing to do anything, I would agree with you in respect to outward compliance....But, if you stated that we dont need to respond inwardly to the gospel message, I would highly disagree. I believe that this heart response of ours is required (essential). It is proof that we have come into agreement with God and His truth. What happens after this can be a whole array of things, but our Hope should be for a harvest that is brought about by our obedience to the Word of God, and the help of the Holy Spirit.
IWith love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Hello Michael, and to all on the board....
Michael please listen with your heart to what I am speaking....
What does the scripture say Yahweh will one day judge?
1. a persons doctrine
2. a persons heart
I hope everyone understands it is the heart that will one day be judge!
Michael you make the mistake of many in this day we live, to disassociate the humans responsibility from the work of the cross in the lives of the believers.
I have a choice every moment of everyday to choice whom I will obey.
I choice what I will allow my eyes to see, it was not a sin for David to go to his roof to look at the sights outside that were in his view that were lawful for him to see, but when he saw Bethesda he did not do what he knew was right which would be to have closed his eye turn and run from the temptation as Joseph did in his situation.
Instead David he desired and took that which lead him to a great downfall.
The little children song is so needful for all to place deep in their heart....
be careful little eyes what you see
be careful little ears what you hear
be careful little feet where you go
sin is conceived in the heart because we obey not the Laws of Yahweh, we obey the Laws because we love Yahweh, we are able to keep the Law because Yeshua has conquered sin in His death, burial and resurrection and sent all that confess His Name and Believe (OBEY) with their heart all that is accomplish by His great Love the Precious Holy Spirit to accomplish His Grace in our hearts.
The straight gate Yeshua the one and only way to Eternal Life....
The narrow way obedience to all scripture from Genesis to Revelation by walking in the Spirit from a heart that is broken before a Great, Holy, Righteous, Loving GOD and Father
Faith without obedience is dead!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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[ oneinchrist said: But, if you stated that we don’t need to respond inwardly to the gospel message,]
Responding inwardly is exactly what is required; responding inwardly by belief unto the heart and soul of creation: Jesus! The gospel message is a person! That person lives! We obey ‘by Him’. Until we understand that, we ‘try’ to obey unto Him, in a sense, separate from Him. We live by Him. We obey by Him, or, we offer a sacrifice of counterfeit obedience, a work of the flesh, the sin of Cain.
The soul is filled with religiosity after one is saved. Restless, we try to imitate as a substitute for obedience by Him. “The pride of life, the lust of the eye, and the lust of the flesh is not of the Father.” Do you know that you can even have a lust to preach? If it is not His will for you, and you are, you no doubt do it out of lust (therefore by the old man who doesn’t know he is dead)! It seems perfectly right, but is it Jesus? It would be a case of your trying to please Him, but is it Him? Only if you are one with Him will you know.
When scripture says that He sticks closer than a brother, it is an understatement. Ask, “What does it take to obey ‘by’ Him?” I’ll put it like this: That pretty story of ‘Footprints in the Sand’, is just that, for there is only one set of footprints in the sand if you are truly, from the heart believing in Him, that you are dead and buried, risen with Him from the dead. There is crisis in this discovery for every believer! Blessed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The natural man, and the old man are the same. These are they who are what they are apart from the Spirit and revelation of our Lord, and survive by some type of continuing unbelief, causing the old nature to coexist with the indwelling Spirit (creating muddy water). This should not be so, and if one looks at themselves in the light of scripture, this should clear up. For “Whatsoever doth make manifest is light.” (Eph5:13)
1Co 2:14 But the natural man [still in the believer] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It goes back to washing of the world, flesh and devil out of our heart that we may see.
In Eph 4:22, 23, 24 Paul says that we are to ‘put off’ the old man. Again, he survives by unbelief, that is, not so perfect belief which is in our heart. This is a specific instruction, essential to the fruitfulness of our understanding. In truth, look to Jesus and say this if you are honest: “Lord Jesus, I believe that I am cleaving to, embracing the ‘old man’. I want to confess this to you. You know what to do.”
There is no shortage of words in the Gospels red letters concerning this. Are you ready?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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becauseHelives
Thank you for this huge smile! God bless ya too!
I have this confidence in that I am seated with Him in heavenly places as we speak.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: in that he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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New Testament OBEDIENCE is to believe, and not WHAT (other than to say the finished work, which He is) but WHO!
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
I have put this verse in to illustrate something about the unsaved, that they are not judged until judgment day (yet some have no shame to do so anyway). However those who say that they know Him are judged from the time that they believe, whether they are in or out of His Grace, whether they are wheat, or tare, sheep, or goat, wood, hay and stubble maker, or a faith tree with branches wherein the fowl of the air may lodge. You don’t have to guess (i.e. abide in darkness). Don’t get before Him and say you guessed He wanted this, when He asks you what you did while here.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
We think of the word here as verses of scripture. The deeper meaning is that it is Jesus, the begotten, the sword, who judges us in a living way. This is the judgment that slays unbelief (as evidenced by the passage above), whether we believe unto Him as a Historical fact, a future judge, or a deliverer right now, a power to LIVE by even as we walk!
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he ABIDETH IN HIM ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Kept from sinning…. Ministering Him (in all the various ways), healing the hurt, edifying the saints, being beacons that attract men to Him. Isn’t that how He walked, reproving the works of darkness and unbelief, drawing men by His love?
Look! Jehovah’s Witnesses (I meanly call them joke of a witnesses) can point to Jesus and get people to believe something, but are they who believe ‘something’ about Jesus, joined to Jesus by what they believe. Not so. They are far separate from Him by unbelief, or in that case, perverse belief. Their belief is wasted, fruitless. He is no where near them. They are not joined to Him by what they believe, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that you are joined to Him, and He saves, present tense, heals, delivers and manifests His works by you because you believe. What part of that will you argue with? Really! You can slave away working for Him and He will say “I never knew you.” Knowing is intimate, not imaginary. If you imagine that your works will be accepted by Him, God help us both, because I do not want to see it happen to you, or anyone.
He said of Israel, “You honor me with your lips, but your heart is far from me.” If you believe, He will manifest Himself to you, and be in you. By Him you will live and see His salvation, of yourself, and of the world. For He will perform it because you trust Him to.
Self righteousness is thinking that you can 'do' anything to please Him, other than to believe and receive what He has done for you, and will do for others if you will let Him instead of trying to do it yourself.
Law = Earning = Doing. Grace = Promise = expecting = Having! Clap Clap!
Well fiddles. Guess i'll stand down, maybe talk about Revelation or something for a while.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Slaving away working for Him is one thing, but obeying the Lords commands because we love Him can be another. I agree with you 100% Michael that belief is obedience, because Jesus chastisted those whose hearts remained callous in unbelief. He would not have chastised them if they could not help it.
I want to adress the epistles of John because they seem to give us some very clear, cut, and dry ways to examine our hearts. John has been recorded as the one writer who more frequently used language most similar to Jesus. Sometimes I wonder about that correlation, and the gift of Revelation that came to Him. Something else unique to Johns epistles are the two commands that are given ....to trust on the name of His Son, and His command to love one another. They are not layed out so precisely by any other writer. Love is also the predominant theme throught much of the epistles. Should this be a strong message to all of us?
When we examine our hearts, should'nt we be first and foremost looking for a reflection of Gods' love that has permeated our hearts and flows out into our interpersonal relationships? I mean, we can sit here and wrestle with theological issues forever, but we know that faith without love is nothing. Really, I dont believe that Paul would even speak about a faith without love if it wasn't possible. Its a faith that may have great knowledge, but does not pursue and yield to love for the benefit of others.
One thing that certainly can humble us is knowing that God is testing our hearts. One may wonder why do our hearts get tested? If Christ is in me, then a test may seem to be a waste of time. Christ is all sufficient and He has conquered all..... You see, this is where the misconception, I believe, can come in. Certainly the test is not to test the sufficiency of Christ. The Lord does not test Himself ....but we are tested for our loyalty to His cause. When we are faced with challenges and adversity, does our confession stand firm? Do our hearts continue to trust in His good-will for our lives?
and do we obey from the heart the command to love one another? Do we become passive about sin and fall into the devils trap?
I mean I really believe that these are questions that we need to ask ourselves. If we continue to draw closer to the Lord, then these challenges and adversity will be as tools to strengthen us for His purpose, but if we are seduced back into the worlds ways, then we have failed the test. This is the falling away, where hearts have turned against God saying "when is the promise of this coming", I have better things to do with my life then wait on this supposed Hope. There are women to meet, parties to go to, money to make, cars to race, etc.
There is no one that can convince me that we cannot be lured back into the world by seducing spirits. Do we say then that Christ was not sufficient to retain these men who fall away.
Absolutely not, we say that when the offer came from the devil, the man was easily baited because His love for the Lord had grown cold.
Once again we see the importance of love.....this love being the love we have towards the Lord.
I have often heard its all about relationship...and I really do agree with that. I hope I have helped paint a sketch of how that relationship should exist. I am a firm believer that salvation requires God and man to effect it. God who makes the offer, and we who accept the offer under His terms....or a faithful God and a faithful follower. A faithful follower meaning when God has presented the case, we say "Yes, Lord!"
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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I love talking to you oneinchrist. I won’t get tired of talking it unless you insist. Your point, ‘doesn’t love matter’, is a paramount one. It does. It is all important, therefore it is important to firmly grasp what it is. A controversial figure, brother Norman Grubb says that love is not something that you have, or something that you do, it is something that He is. He records this verbiage in a little pamphlet called “The Key to Everything.” It is a good read.
Concerning reflecting His love, this is a profound misconception that I suffer before the Throne over. Imagine a grape vine being described as reflecting the sap. Doesn’t make much sense, does it? Sap flows in the vine to make it whatever the vine becomes, longer, more fruit bearing, leaf bearing, and green. It is the same for us within whom dwells the Holy Spirit of our Loving God. The concept that His light shines on us and we reflect it out places Him out there somewhere far away from us; but Jesus said a city on a hill cannot be hid. It is lit from within. He stated that nobody lighteth a candlestick and putteth it under a bushel. Why? The light is inside the believer. We don’t cover it up with denial or unbelief, but we let Him shine. Let's go back to the vine! Sap comes from within, from the source first, to us. If fills and gives life to the recipient like light fills the glass globe of a light bulb. We are the recipient if we believe on Jesus and are cleansed by His blood. He flows from Heaven, into us, and to whomever He blesses as we minister Him upon this earth. We are channels of His life and manifestation, windows to Heaven, as it were, or fruit bearing for others to pick and be refreshed by (or edified by).
The concept of reflecting parallels the one of imitating Him. We don’t, and why should we when we have the real thing inside. All we have to do to relate Him to the world around us is to follow after Him by faith, and praise. That is preceded with taking up our Cross, which is actually laying down our life, which is being slain, i.e. baptized into His death, of the which Paul aptly stated, “I die daily.” This literally means that Jesus can then live. What could be more important than that? Not one thing anyone can think of.
Concerning loyalty to His cause, you don’t have to be loyal when you cannot be otherwise, by having His Grace in you (disregarding free will of course, which can and will sin if we don’t trust Him). Of course, since you mentioned it, I am not one who lends any credibility to ‘once saved always saved’. I will say that it is a mystery nevertheless, but it is not a subject I will delve into here.
I will again take this opportunity to say this:
Literally! The straight gate and narrow way is to let Jesus unconditionally have and to do it all. (Rom8:32) This requires a sacrifice of faith, which is surrender by, or to, belief unto Him, that He is. This is your cross. (See Rom14:23; Heb11:6) Jesus, who dwells in your heart by faith, is your heart, and you are conformed to His image (Rom 8:29) by this act of submission. You don’t grow into it.
Perhaps I was mean in the earlier post concerning the definition of doing. It was a great find by the way, even if the scriptures argue differently concerning the conclusion that the definition drew. I am so sorry. I just got excited! You/we must understand that letters do not sound the same necessarily as the same thing stated in person might. Remember that the Corinthians said that Paul’s letters seemed weighty (2Co 10:10). Anyway, to keep it short, I won’t go into “Walking in the light as He is in the light.” In fact, I think I just did. Keep the faith, the Love of our Lord guide you, your servant in Christ MDH.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for your response. I feel that in many ways I know you as a person by your willingness to express your faith.
The way that you express this need for a dependence upon Christ for the strength to persevere I can in no way refute. I believe that we all have that need, and that that need can even increase as we come into trials.
Usually the dialogue that I use when expressing this allowing of Christ to rule our hearts is "submitting to the Holy Spirit"....this same spirit that indeed is come from Christ. I am not about to get into a terminology quarrel, because I believe that we both do speak on the same concept, but just use different words to express it. It is the Holy Spirit that does give each one of us uniqueness in our expression of faith and I do sincerely respect that.
I only want to ask you a question about the process of allowing Christ to live in you and express His life through you. As a result of this, do you say that one automatically loves one another? or does one automatically abstain from sin?
The way that I understand it in my life is that the Holy Spirit gives us convictions, warnings, guidance, strength, and direction........but it still leaves us with choices to make. For example: I may be convicted of unforgiveness or bitterness by the Holy Spirit, but I have to make the choice to go and forgive and make reconciliation. or I may be warned by the spirit not to try and settle a matter by force, but I am still left with the choice to restrain my power...in the same way I believe that we are left with the choice to love one another. I dont believe that the Holy Spirit makes this happen...like we just automatically do it without a conscious decision to obey the spirits leading.
I think you understand what I am trying to say. So what is your take on this. Does the Lord leave us with those faith responses that I describe, or do we just automatically carry out Gods will?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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I follow you. Once upon a time when I wrestled, these decisions were more in front of me and seemed to be something that I had to deal with. Paul however says “Let us lay aside the sin that so easily ‘besets’ us. This kind of struggle is kin to it. Strife, (wrestling) is sin.
His grace is even more sufficient, and we more aware of His grace as we enter trials; truly amazing and comforting.
Concerning the Holy Spirit, that very manifestation is all that so many can see. They overlook personal Jesus who is the one who died to empower them unto a life eternal. What, after all, is the purpose of the Holy Spirit? It is to manifest Jesus to you, and in you, and in your very life. Here is an example of our sight falling short because we focus on something that seems right. Jesus alone is our eternal focus. The Holy Spirit comes with Him because Jesus paved the way by the work on the cross. The comforter brings us Jesus (God in Christ Jesus, in you, [I forget the passage]).
The most personally personal relationship to Jesus is not as clearly pictured in scripture, but is undeniably there, in a strong way. This is why Jesus gave us the words, “Seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be given you.”
So, your question: //I only want to ask you a question about the process of allowing Christ to live in you and express His life through you. As a result of this, do you say that one automatically loves one another? or does one automatically abstain from sin?//
Splitting hairs….
It is no longer I that live but Christ. Think about it. If this truly is the experience of the believer exactly the way Paul says it, (and means it), are you then saying that you must struggle to ‘let Him save, deliver, reign, love? Is this what Jesus intends, that you wrestle with this stuff? Then why does He say “My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” This should lead one to search this out; not take for granted that their experience is the reality he wants one to experience. Because in fact, you may cross the desert of struggle, but there is an oasis of victory just after it. That desert will be behind you, unless you go back to it, and i don't mean that you keep going back to it. Those guys in the OT came into the promise land. PROMISE!
You will always be confronted. You don’t have to fight the fight though.
Watchman Nee appeals to believers in his writings unto this by describing how a balloon under water rises above it. He says that if you are in proper relationship, rising is the rule more so than what we know in the flesh, which is that sin pushes us down. Walking on the water is something that is automatic, a given, done; unless you fail to rest in the one (like Peter when he got out of the boat, took His eyes off of Jesus and lost faith).
It is a personal relationship, the most personal that it can be in that you are trusting Him in the present tense for: that all of your need is met. He is saving, delivering, guiding your every step. He is cleansing, reigning, keeping you safe in Him, delivering you unto that day. You are asking if you love automatically – yes! You are a channel of His love. If you meet the requirements of surrender, then you have no need to hate someone, because you accept His will for them as they are, where they are.
You say:// The way that I understand it in my life is that the Holy Spirit gives us convictions, warnings, guidance, strength, and direction........but it still leaves us with choices to make. For example: I may be convicted of unforgiveness or bitterness by the Holy Spirit, but I have to make the choice to go and forgive and make reconciliation. or I may be warned by the spirit not to try and settle a matter by force, but I am still left with the choice to restrain my power...in the same way I believe that we are left with the choice to love one another. I dont believe that the Holy Spirit makes this happen...like we just automatically do it without a conscious decision to obey the spirits leading.//
The deceiver has you down on the mat wresting, and you are unaware that you don’t have to. You have the sword.
You have choices. It is a matter of free will. But free will can surrender to victory, if it recognizes what it is supposed to! I said that you will always be confronted. This gives opportunity for free will to allow Jesus to come through, i.e. be manifest, which means more dramatically, be glorified! Jesus loves! It is not something that you do. It is something that you allow. It is something that you can prevent, due to fallen nature. Though, you are not required to be subject to your fallen nature, (sin shall not have dominion over you ~Romans) else the words of scripture are in vain.
1Jn 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1Jn 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jn 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
Quite simply, hating, or not forgiving will prevent you from, (what does it say in these passages?) walking in the light, which is what we have been talking about. These are three strong passages. If you let Jesus have control over everybody and everything, you are forgiving in a blanket way, because you accept that these events are not random. They are, for simplicity, opportunity for Jesus to be manifest in you, in answer to the given situation (choice). Evil will, in this life, confront every one of us. How you meet it determines whether the fruit of the Spirit will be borne in, and through you, which is Jesus dealing with it instead of you because you trust Him by faith. Did you know, I cannot say this strongly enough, that when someone, or even something, wrongs you, that, if you do not forgive, it is your God - that you do not forgive, literally, personally, and directly? That will put it in a different light.
I would like to address this more probably, but, another post maybe!
The light of Jesus shine in your life and reconcile you to the Father, in Jesus Name, Amen!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
I just read your post. I appreciate your direct responses to my post. I am still not quite sure that I am convinced ,by your explanation, that these responses to God are even meant to be automatic (in the sense that we make no conscious decision to act upon Gods leading). I cannot relate to that in my life experiences. I don't see how our faith is tested if we are just carried along without ever having to make some very difficult decisions along the way.
But, you do have me curious about how God has impressed upon your life, and the lives of people around you. Has God brought you to any places in life that you had never expected? Would you be willing to share some of your testimony?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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I don’t believe. That is such a key phrase.
Does one automatically abstain from sin. It can be answered either way. I don’t know if you have been positioning yourself to pounce on this. Theologians around the world would wait with baited breath, ready to rub my nose in First John, and Romans, depending upon how I answer. Ok! So I’ll rub my own nose in it. They’ll do well to join me. To the extent that victory is already paid for, it is automatic. However, we must ‘do’ something. We must believe, but what is that, really, because He does the doing? We simply receive. We can in no wise do it, but we can receive, by belief.
This is where the heart comes in, ‘if the eye is single, the body will be full of light’. What is the eye if it is not single? It is double. For that matter, it is evil. Double means the same thing. Therefore, the passages means, if the heart believes, the soul will be full of light. If it is not evil, it will be full of light.
Now, without holiness, no one can see God. So if it is not possible to be above sin, then no man will see Him. Then there would be no point to this passage of scripture. Why would anyone preach holiness if it was only partial? It would be of no effect. If the salt has lost its savor, it is fit only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. What does it mean, ‘lost its savor’? It means given to sin; and most believe that fact to be an inescapable reality of the Christian life. Therefore they justify themselves in it and condemn anyone for thinking otherwise. If you look, you will find soul shaking passages that warn against this, yet everyone persists.
Like, you said [ I don’t believe that the Holy Spirit makes this happen… like we just automatically do it without a conscious decision to obey the spirits leading.]
Do you want to please God? Do you think He will be pleased with this? He is more concerned with your being safe from sin than anything else you think is important to Him. He can use a fit vessel.
1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that DOETH righteousness is born of him.
What is righteous? It means that you do nothing apart from Him, nothing that He wouldn’t do. It means that you don’t transgress Him. How do you transgress? Idolatry; covet/lust after; hate – you know. Thererfore you must be content, and trusting for righteousness to be imparted to you. If the heart is content with Jesus, he has all He needs.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
John words this so strongly. I prefer the last half of this to sound like, ‘ whosoever sinneth neither sees, nor knows Him. This is how John means it. It is very personal to know someone. Sin (see my post about ‘wages of sin’) separates you from fellowship with Him. Some complain about ‘clouds’ hiding His face. There you go! Doesn’t mean that you are not ‘saved’, rather, not intimate with Him, and therefore breaking His heart. You are missing something powerful that He means for you to have. Look! It says, “whosoever ABIDETH in Him, sinneth not. Then, if and when you sin, you ABIDETH NOT due to sin. But John alludes to abiding! In abiding, you sinneth not! Else you are not abiding. So you have a bunch of Christians who get a trickle down blessing from time to time. Think what it would be like to Abide in Him if they get a trickle down when they are not being righteous. Think also about this. “Whosoever ABIDETH in me may ask what they will and it will be done for Him.” Well, ever wonder why you have these little ‘unanswered prayers’?
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
As he is, so are we in this world. How is He? Not if we abide in, or are defeated in sin. Look back to verses, 6,7,8,14.
So, there is a provision to know His life, righteousness, and more....
“With the heart you BELIEVE unto righteousness….” Unto what? How? Believe in your heart – unto not being under the power of sin, which will separate you from close fellowship with Him. With the heart you BELIEVE, and unto what, living, walking, essentially being imparted RIGHTEOUSness, not condemned to crushing His Spirit by sin and unbelief.>>
If Brother Lawrence had only known. He wrote this neat little book on "Practicing the presence of God." God is willing to impart His presence. What could be better than that? What are the requirements?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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My life is pretty uneventful, except for precious awareness of Him, being preoccupied with Him without even trying, thrilling evidences of Him, answered prayer, being able to really ‘pray without ceasing’ and some stuff, that is much of what I could say. There is more. If you want, I will keep you posted.
Of course, there ARE tests, insults, tribulation. You said it. I do not have an unbroken record of living up to His Grace. But I am in a much better place. The power to is there.
Read messages on the Victorious Life, by Charles Trumbull. The book is called "Victory in Christ."
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Much of our discussion has been over the importance of obedience. There are scriptures that warn us against disobedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Though you have expressed the need for us to understand Pauls writings, I do not believe that you have been convincing enough to prove the expendability of our obedience/loyalty/faithfullness to the Lord Jesus.
In my last post I was asking if you could share some of your testimony. Could you please still do that?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Dear Daniel:
Here is where I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, and try to persuade others.
It is not between you and me. It is between you and Him. You stand or fall to Him. I am not the example that you are to judge yourself by, but the word has been preached, Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Someone will read and believe! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif)
![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
I have felt that our conversations have been good and beneficial. The man who led me to Christ years ago used to have these kind of conversations with me and we grew together in a brotherly bond and a stronger conviction in the truth of the love of God. I will never forget the time he invited me over to his house. Oh, it was a nice house with a beautiful view of a lake from a hilltop. He was standing by the window and he said, "Daniel, come here and look out my window at this view". So I did. Then he said "you know what, this doesn't mean anything to me anymore now that I have Jesus in my heart". I can tell you at that point in time I was cut to the heart, and I knew that I was lacking. That began a new chapter in my life.
Through our conversations I have tried to pick up on the message you are trying to convey. I have to say that overall the thoughts that come to my mind are that sometimes I feel that there is some sort of disconnect for some people between faith in Jesus and faith in His Words. When I read the gospels I am convinced that should not be the case. When Jesus speaks of justification, he gives an example where love is shown. Jesus also states that we can be left unforgiven if we choose not to forgive....sometimes that dont seem to line up with the "not saved by works" sentiment. I suppose I may be cautious with the way that I look at some of Paul's teachings. It seems to be important to consider context, and what objective Paul is trying to reach, in order to come up with logical conclusions. I have to admit that I have actually disagreed with Paul in the instance where He rebukes the appointed leader of the flock in front of everyone. That I cannot understand the reason for. Why could it not have been effectively communicated in private without causing public shame? But nevertheless, Paul was a man of God, afflicted for the cause of Christ, and diligent to the end. I could have nothing to say against that unless I want to speak against God. Michael, I'm not upset with you. I dont feel compelled to compare my life with you because I respect the uniqueness in the body of believers. I just have strong conviction in the necessity of faith in Jesus Words', yes, which in many ways does equate to a heart that is ready to obey them. This conviction is not just based on reading scripture, but on seeing how God has operated in my life, and has been helping build a stronger bond of love in the faith with my family and friends. I have shared some of my testimony on this site, for I am not ashamed of how the Lord has communicated to me in some dreams, and in answer to prayer. It is always my hope to hear good news of what God has done in other peoples lives, and how He has changed them by His forgiveness and love. With you, it is no different. I am here to move on in the faith with all my brothers and sisters here. I have always believed and I will continue to believe that "love" is the most signature evidence of a believer in Christ. No matter how eloquent some speech may be, I always look for the evidence shown by love expressed. Thank you my friend for the conversation.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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My brother wanted to join the Mormons because he bought into the commercials that protray family unity. All i can say is that Jesus says that you must not love father or mother, brother, etc. more than Him. He says, he that forsakes not all that he hath cannot be my disciple. That includes family, friends and so on. This is absolute. God deals in the absolute. You cannot serve Him and cling to these, which come under the category of 'riches'. You cannot serve God and mammon (riches).
Faith, which is demonstrated trust, gives unto Him the credit that He will hold in His hand that which you find important, and you trust His decision on these things. After all, are they not more important to Him. Forsake all that he hath, means all that He hath; not that he should sell whatever, or run off whomever, or give away everything, but submit it all to his care, hands off in sacrifice. How can you come to do that? Because you believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who come to Him by faith. Here is obedience!
Wealth, which is possessions (which unfortunately, misguidedly includes people) is idolatry. How so? Scripture says that love of money (which is one type of wealth) is the root of all evil. Money in itself is not: love of it is. Why? Because you put your faith in it. People want money because they 'believe' that it will accomplish things for them. That makes it an idol, and scripture says that you shall have no other gods before Me.
Going back to obedience, which is important to you: What do you get for your obedience? Whatever you list, do you get it because you obey? God doesn't command us to do anything, but to have! If He wants us to 'do' something, He doesn't command us, He leads. He didn't 'command' Peter to His martyrdom. Only satan Pontificates.
Love leads.
You receive God's gift(s). God commands you to have, not to do. There is nothing that you can 'do'. All the people who are trying to 'do', are working. That's the opposite of rest. All the people that are trying to do, are trying to earn. Merit. The law is equal to trying to earn, which is equal to doing to earn. This fruit is comparable to the wood, hay and stubble talked about in Corinthians. It will be lost. Therefore says our Lord, Lay not up treasure on earth where moth and dust corrupt and thieves break in to steal.
Ultra repentance is required to reap that which we can lay up in heaven. But it is such a small step. I cannot tell you that it is not scary to commit in this way. That is why you have a relationship wherein you can talk to Him, work it out (work out your salvation with fear and trembling). This is His leading.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Yew sed: [Hi Michael,
Much of our discussion has been over the importance of obedience. There are scriptures that warn us against disobedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Though you have expressed the need for us to understand Pauls writings, I do not believe that you have been convincing enough to prove the expendability of our obedience/loyalty/faithfullness to the Lord Jesus.]
I believe that you have only lightly read over what I have posted. Anyways....
Disobedience to the Gospel? Verily! You don’t have to struggle to be ‘faithful’. You don’t have to ‘try’ to be loyal.
![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Michael Harrison,
Two questions before I comment...
1. What Does the "Promise Land" typify in the Old Testament to the believer today?
2. Do you take the position a believer after the New Birth can never be lost? Yes or no
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Michael,
I dont mean to intervene as you are in conversation with becauseHElives. I am very troubled over something that you said in your last post........"God does'nt command"
Im sorry that statement seems to be far from the truth. Scripture is full of commands. Yes, God loves and leads by love, but with that comes commands and warnings. I dont know where you get this idea from, it cant be from scripture.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Daniel
What you have described to me in all these posts IS the Christian experience. It is not the CHRIST experience. As long as you are determined that you must work to have it, it will elude you. The abundant life will be like a leaky faucet; drip... drip... drip....
It cannot be made more simple. What you hear as commandment, does not mean to do it. It means to have it because He has provided. It is 'The Promised Land', which He GIVES His people, (and if you reread this sentence it should become clear; or read it in the OT where He said that He would 'Give' them the promised land.If any would like to read this post from top to bottom, i have already joyously answered these. Yet I am joyously willing to answer again.)
Clearly, since you cannot 'do', because if you 'could' you would be 'fulfilling' the law, which you 'cannot', which is why Jesus had to die to fulfill it for you, then, as He said of His Father, "He doeth the works." You cannot add to Him except by 'Praising' Him for His costly, Blood Sacrifice provision.
If you'll 'believe' He'll change you, and If'll you'll learn this: Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
An interesting thing happens here. When you put on Christ, the more important side of the coin which doesn't appear face up, until you turn it over, is that "He puts on you."
I know! It is hard to accept such a wonderful gift, but those are His terms! ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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I do not believe in 'once saved, always saved'. I would take a person directly to where Paul said "I do not consider myself to have attained..."
Though he said 2Ti 1:12 "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." Yet, by his first statement "do not consider," in the fear of God he clearly recognizes that he has a free will and can blow it. Nevertheless, it is a mystery. Yet! It is done, if he can rest in it! Selah!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(He does not consider himself to have attained, as though it depends upon himself to do it. He rests in God his savior to do it.)
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Obedience ? ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Do I have a choice?
Has Yeshua made me a robot?
No one has any life outside Yeshua!
No obedience except obedience from the life walking in the Spirit pleases Yahweh!
Yeshua is the only example the believer can look to and receive instruction!
Yeshua learned obedience through the things He suffered!
Like wise the believer learns obedience through suffering with Yeshua and for Yeshua!
Yahweh’s mercy is new every morning, but I must choose to receive it.
Most every alter call I have ever heard says…”invite Christ into your heart and be saved”, this is a lie!
Yeshua does not say ask Me into our heart, He invites us to enter into His life, to share in all that He has finish that was required of a Holy Righteous Loveing God and Father.
But everyday continually I have a choices to make, walk after the Spirit or walk after the flesh!
Choose life, choose to obey from the heart by the Spirit, just as Yeshua gave example.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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It is a long, long, loooooonnnnnng way down from where we are on our high horse, in the ‘pride of life’, down to where we can meet the reality of the provision of our Lord. Scripture says “Except ye be come as a little child,” you cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That would require humbling down, down, down. He says that:
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The eye of the needle, spoken of in scripture, is a hole in the wall of Jerusalem where traders enter and leave. In order for people with camels to enter and leave, they have to unpack their camel, then draw it to its knees in order to get through the hole. This symbolizes removing your burdens and humbling down in order to enter the city of the Great King. But many are so smart, that they will bump their heads for their entire life, trying to enter in, without doing so, but being dizzy from head injury, will be thinking that they have. Show them one scripture that they don’t understand and they will ignore it, if they can’t cope with it. It seems ok to them.
You said that the Bible is full of commandments, and that I couldn’t have gotten what I stated to so be, from the Bible. Let me tell you something sir. It comes from Jesus! It is in His word. So, let me take you to task once more. For, “whomsoever shall fall upon this Rock, shall be broken.” (That means that the pride of life will no longer blind their eyes.)
You say that there are commandments that you must keep, that they are prolific in scripture. Well, let’s look at the paramount commandment, which is most important to God, and which will take care of the rest in domino fashion, if heeded. “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.” And let’s look at the first part, “Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength.”
You say that there are these commandments, and that you must ‘do’ them, that scripture says to - plainly. You have just read it. Do you? He says do it. Don’t make excuses.
I will ask you, how much effort does it take to ‘do’ this? There should be a measure of how much, if you can accomplish it. Therefore you should be able to tell someone how that they will know when they have done enough, so that they can be satisfied in themselves that they have done this.
Do you love with all of the heart even, or are you kidding yourself? This is a commandment - the commandment. There are two possibilities: either you say yes, in which case you lie, albeit you may be well meaning. Or, you admit that you can’t. Brother, I tell you to ‘do’ it. But you can’t! No amount of effort will suffice. If, in fact, you could, He would have not needed to die, but He expects it! It is a commandment! The commandment.
You are compelled to try on the one hand. On the other, you feel if you don’t, you are slapping Him in the face. Well why are you trying? Do you draw consolation from the fact that you tried? Does that gain points with Him? It isn’t enough. Not enough is not enough! You say you gotta try. Well, by nature of the fact of trying, you are trying to earn it; and try telling me how that you are going to try to earn unmerited favor: a gift?
If you are going to keep His commandments, you must keep them all, starting with this one. If you accept that you cannot ‘do’ that, then you are condemned to a life of failure and perpetual repenting. What kind of a message will this tell the world? Why would anyone want to know our God? If you have to work for it by trying, you might as well do buddah.
In Luke, Jesus said, Luk 12:25 “And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?”
Luk 12:26 “If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?”
He makes it clear. You cannot even change your stature by a microminiature amount. Why take thought for something else. It means “Why do you try to ‘do’ it?
Now that it must be done is paramount. You said so yourself. How that is accomplished you must find out, and it is not by ‘doing’. In the meantime, you are transgressing Him, coming up short of His glory, by abiding in unbelief, trespass and sin, by trying. The Kingdom is in ‘having’, ye who are called by His name, not in ‘doing’.
Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to GIVE you the kingdom.
You must humble yourself to receive. Doing is not humble, but full of worldly pride, and self. If you cannot have it by ‘doing’, then how? You must know - precious little ones.
The point is, if He commands it, He will perform it, if we will submit unto it by belief, which is having, which is our reality if we want His reality!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Do you accuse me of self-exaltation because I speak on the importantance of obedience?
Would you also accuse Peter and the Apostles?
Acts 5:29-32 But Peter and the apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Would you also accuse Paul?
Romans 2:7-9
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of ...
Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Galatians 5:7-8 You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuation does not come from Him who calls you.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Would you accuse the writer of Hebrews also?
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, called by God as High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
and Peter again?
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgement to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
Would you also accuse Jesus?
Matthew 7:24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
You know Michael, I could understand your accusation if I had never spoken on the importance of continually depending on the Lord for strength to persevere, and if I had not emphasized the need for us believers to call on Christ for the Comforter to strengthen our witness by confirming His Word in us.
Now as far as the commandments are concerned. Jesus said "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fullfill it." The New Covenant is God's plan to write His Laws in our hearts. He does not expect perfection, but we are to be perfected/sanctified by faith that is in Jesus and His Words. If you believe that there are no commandments that we need to keep, what is your take on this verse?
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
I understand that God is the source of all that is needed to accomplish His good will in our lives....but that does not mean that there are no commands.
Michael you are critical of my speaking of the need to obey Christ.....but then you go on to speak of an obedience that you believe is important. So it does'nt appear that you disagree with the importance of obedience....you just dont like the way that I put it in context. When I speak of obedience, I speak of obedience to the Words of Christ. I dont understand why anyone would want to argue that, considering it means opening our hearts up to the words of truth that sanctify our hearts and lead us into a victorious life in Christ. Abiding in Christ also means abiding in His Words.
So do you still accuse me of self-exaltation or would you rather that I use different and less offensive terminology?
Michael, if I didn't care about our friendship in the Lord I would not take the time and thought to consider your words and reply to you.
It is my hope and my prayer that the confidence that you profess in Christ moves you to Godly living all to the glory of God, and the exaltation of the Name of Jesus Christ. It is by His Word that we understand His Will for us, and it is by His spirit that we are guided into a specific direction whereby the Lord utilizes our gifts and talents to maximum effectiveness for His perfect purpose.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by freeinchrist (Member # 6867) on
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i have really enjoyed this subject..i read this stuff over and over again. i love the fact of people coming together to discuss these things. but it seems to be getting alittle heated up.. please keep this subject going but don't lose the focus..i don't wish this subject to end ... thank-you..and peace be with you..James
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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This is not heated up. Daniel is a blessed brother and I know that he loves me in Christ. And I have to grin from ear to ear. (He loves us so much Our Jesus). But Daniel doesn’t hear what I am saying, and these words do sound provocative, I know. Words however are the vehicle for meaning. The meaning that I am trying to communicate is paramount. I would bleed to communicate it, and may someday. I don’t know. But it is my joy to share it.
The understanding gets in the way, and the words I use can be heard varying ways. Only one is of the Spirit. The rest are of the unenlightened, (unenlightenable) natural man (the old man). The natural man that Paul talks about is like a filter. Remember the days when you had a camera, and particularly if you were shooting black & white you would choose a filter to affect the outcome of the photograph? Well, the natural man stands between the ears of the hearer, and the heart. By the time the words reach the heart, they are distorted. The respondent reacts; that is, unless the message reaches the heart in tact. He reacts because the understanding is different than what he hears. It is a defense mechanism.
This very statement takes me back to where I mentioned about Jacob wrestling with God, wherein he had his thigh dislocated. The message in that was that Jacob’s defense mechanism was in play against God - and God took it out making him fully dependent on his Lord. Every man should pray for it. This is why Jesus gave us the Sermon on the Mount: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, the meek, they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the peacemakers.” Blessed are you if you are inadequate, not filled with self-determination!
If you are blessed to have the defense mechanism taken out, that natural man who distorts what the Spirit says to our hearts, is rendered ineffective. The mud, which is our natural man, is washed out of our eyes. Selah! There is a whole new way of seeing that He has for us, one that blesses His heart, a heavenly view. In the meantime, full of well meaning, we toil, not having a clue what the Spirit has for us. (1cor2:10)
![[angel3]](graemlins/angel3.gif)
I grin again! You can disagree with the message, but is it me with whom you disagree? You will have absolutly no doubt until the message becomes reality. Then you will understand what I mean by my speaking of ‘high horse’. Love ya n Christ!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
I have been trying to understand you. It all started with your line that went...."stop trying to do what you have". Now my understanding about what you are saying there is that there is this vanity in self-effort (wrestling). This presumably is what I am being accused of.
Now, what I am trying to explain is that there is a difference between creating my own way to God and striving to get there(self-effort), and committing to doing the things that Jesus teaches (required responses).
This is the simplest way that I can explain it.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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In all this I am not saying that you are wrong in what you relate. I am saying that there is something that is more correct in revelation. And when i write all of this, i am not pointing a finger at you in a direct sense, but at all those who desire to know Him, and who are already called by His name. The devil gets one to take it personally. Also, in the next to previous post i now would have preferred to have used the word 'illustrate' rather than 'challenge'. Yea! That would work.
The point i make about the commandment for all of us as believers, "With all your heart, soul, mind..." is that, since you cannot do it, it doesn't matter if you try a little, or try a lot. You cannot. This is universal. It is strange to us as everyday people to consider, and i would illustrate a towering dilemma in relationship (which is what we are supposed to be in) by pointing it out. If you cannot do it by trying, how is it done? It is done! You are not condemned to transgression and distant future hope. It is real victory now!
So, if you don't try, to some that would be sacrilege. But no! It would be sacrilege to try if you can't do it, and you already know it; (He understands that you want to) but it is important to Him that you are able to be fulfilled in this. Therefore, He HAS made a provision for you to be able to (do) be, have. Every man must seek it (the mystery). It is beyond one's self. In other words, don't expect that you are sufficient in yourself to know what God wants, and that you can perform it. That was the error of Cain. He missed it, and was exposed for what error was in him after that he realized that his effort was not ample. Not getting his way, he went off. No fear and humility there.
Viewing it as a theology problem, or a war of words of conceptual intellectual posturing will not solve it for anyone. It will always come down to being a gift. Receive it. Let you be transformed by the renewing of your mind in the enlightenment of Christ Your Life.
Again i'll say, your required response is to believe, and receive. For example, He says to love your neighbor. You cannot. He can. You let Him. You are His vessel for it. He will love them, and maybe there will be something to do...Some desired response. But He will love!
I'll b bak!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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What makes it hardest to tell is that people think that they already know. To add to that, what I am trying to say cannot be said, only hinted at! Then, when stated with verbiage it sounds self-exalting!
In fact - it is self abasing. It doesn’t sound that way somehow. In fact, it even sounds provocative, which is nevertheless scriptural according to this passage:
Heb 10:24 “And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:”
And these: Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
What is said, is however, self-abasing in that it is in recognition of the fact that I cannot do what is required, but I can yield to His accomplishing thereof by faith, praise, acceptance and belief, which is a gift. Here is what is important regarding it, since this cannot be easily said; all must ‘seek-out’ in order to know what He wants them to find (work out their own salvation). They don’t know well enough what they are looking for, but they must cleanly enter into His provision, which means that they must find it out from Him. However ‘all’ (I use this word mildly) are so easily deceived by the flesh, and sidetracked so that they end up in the wrong pasture than the one the Lord calls them to be in. The example is repeated over and over in the Old Testament.
Don’t be in the wrong pasture, and I am telling you, pastors have a huge responsibility in this, yet they are failing, udderly ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
cause they don’t have a clue. In fact, if this is preached in churches, they will boot you. Even if the Holy Spirit is, Jesus is not welcome there. Most Strangely. I know that I have gotten the cold shoulder (shudder) which is so strange. It is like when you first know Jesus, and you want to share Him, but the intended shy away. Only, to have Christians cold shoulder you, well, if it breaks my heart, what must it do to His? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I will tell you. I have His heart, as should you.
As long as you are reading scripture as something to do, you are going to wander in the wilderness.
It isn’t what you do. It is what you have; because, simply – He is, and He is ours! So you have to ask yourself, “How is He?” Well, that’s profound. How He is, we cannot be, because we are not Him. So then, if you read, “As He is, so are we in this world,” (1John) how can that be? Simply, we do not stand alone. He abides in those who abide in Him (Take care that you know how to abide) and He abides in us, in this world, or He is a stranger.
When the USA sends an ambassador to another country, that ambassador is to that country wherein he is sent, the United States. When they see that ambassador, they are seeing the United States. When they deal with that ambassador, they are dealing with the United States. So Paul was the ambassador of Christ. When you see Paul, you are seeing Jesus. When you deal with Paul, you are dealing with Jesus. But, unlike the US comparison, there is a living reality. When you are dealing with Paul, you are dealing with Jesus, because Paul, yields to Jesus.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [I live, but it is a new me, filled out from the innermost, with Christ, and i am moved (carried) by His own faith]
He is not speaking on behalf of Jesus. He is an interface directly with the Lord. It is not like Jesus went to heaven and left Paul behind to deal with it, saying "yeah, good job Paul. I'll check with you later." You are dealing with Jesus; and so it is from brethren-to-brethren, who are walking in the light as He is in the light, when they are. This is called - the KINGDOM of GOD.
The commandments of God are the spoken word. Jesus is the Word of God. The law of God comes by Word of God, therefore, the law comes by the Jesus of God (by Jesus from God). Jesus is the law. He is the WORD of God. When He says He will write His laws in your heart, that therefore means that He will write HIMSELF into your heart. He is the Law of God. He doeth the works, as the sap flows unhindered through the vine. If you believe that He is the law who is written in your hearts, then everything is done by Him.
Believing - is seeing with the heart.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for sharing. I am happy to hear that you are not accusing me, but if I am being accused, it is by a messenger of the devil. I also believe that sometimes it is hard to convey certain messages without seeming to come across with an air of too much self-assurance. Though I feel confident in the belief that our obedience plays an important role in God's will for us, I dont want to be misconstrued as being over-confident in myself and my own abilities apart from the Lord's provision. If Jesus ever permitted the Holy spirit to confirm His word in me, I certainly dont see myself saying "Look, what you see here would not be possible without Christ Jesus, and my obedience". That would be foolish and arrogant of me, I know. I hope you realize that I understand that.
When you speak of "having" the thing that comes to mind for me is "having His forgiveness". That is what has motivated me to love Him and desire more from Him.
That is where the Lord has become real to me in my heart. Your posts do encourage me to never forget that. Thank you.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Yea! You know, when you write you don't know how it will be heard. So you just throw it out there and shape it like a sculptor till it becomes clear. Cuz i edit a lot. And if you don't say it, you may be depriving someone of something.
Of course, if i didn't say it, even our obedience is of God. We do not contribute anything to Him, even our obedience. All that we have is of Him, and we must surrender even our obedience, to please Him. It is 100% or nothing if we are to surrender to Him on His terms. Without that surrender, we don't even see dimly, as 'through a glass', like we think we do.
This cannot be overemphasized. Know what one hundred percent means. Your fruit bearing relationship depends upon it.
Gal 3:11 "But that no man is justified by doing (i.e. the law) in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by Having (or faith)."
It is easy to see that we [have] 'forgiveness'. Well, in the same way you have forgiveness, you have destination, purpose, and all that God is working on your behalf to bring about, because it is His life that we have. MOreover, it is called grace, which is God doing for you what you cannot possibly please Him in. It is also subsitution, His life which is eternal, for yours. This is called salvation, or 'being saved' a present tense moment by moment life lived until that day when we are absent from the body.
Some people have a fear to obey for whatever reason. Where will they end up? The devil will get them under condemnation, then what will they have? Forgiveness! It doesn’t go away. Jesus doesn't want you under condemnation. He is able to get your obedience as you look full in His glorious face. He is not carrying a big stick. The one carrying the big stick is the WF&D. The bub. So, if you feel like the stick wielder is waiting to pounce on you, that is not Jesus. Love is gentle. Love delivers. Love leads.
I asked what will the fearful have. The answer: forgiveness. You don't have to work for that. It is the same with accepting the provision that Jesus died on the Cross to give you; His life, which wins. He died on the Cross to give you His life, which overcomes fear and doubt, and empowers you over sin (which is anything disappointing to Him). You don't have to work for it. Working for it annuls it. He is more desirous to embrace you in relationship, and protect you from the devil who torments you from misgivings about whether you have done enough, or are the perfect person. This is an active step by step delivery. If you have the faith that you have His forgiveness, you have the faith needed that He is fulfilling your well-being of relationship with Him, and the world around you according to His purpose.
You have choices, but power to obey is a gift. How shall anyone be saved if not, remembering that, “not that we loved Him, but that He loved us first.” (1John4:19)
Don’t work on working for it. Work on having it, which is Him. To seek first the Kingdom, you have to seek first the King. It doesn’t cease. You always seek the King - to have. You 'have' by the King, as long as you are 'having' the King! When you are not having the King, you are like Peter on the water when He jumped out of the boat.
You don't do what you have, because if you have it, it is already done. It comes with the King.
Cast Him not away. You are not Jesus, but without Him, you are not anything (a lost sinner at best). You are not Jesus, but Jesus is you, as long, and only as long as you are perfectly yielded to Him by faith. (Col 3:4 "When Christ, who is our life..."[it is the same in that He abides in you by faith in the fact]) Else, you are a dead branch, fit for nothing but to be cast into the fire. You can do nothing for Him. You can do all things by Him.
If you obey this, then will you see how all things in the word fit together. Otherwise you are separated from Him and abide in darkness, and the light shineth not.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Michael Harrison
You talk about stuff on these deep spiritual terms that mean nothing.
You use the example of coming as a child, how many children do you have?
I have 6 of my own and 15 grandchildren.
There are many spiritual observations I have made through my 34 years of seeking after Truth in Scriptures and one is that each child is different and responds different to different situations.
The Walk of Faith is different for all but it is also the same.
Obedience is the most important issue in raising children.
You never mention What I said about Yeshua the author and finisher of our faith, learning obedience.
Yeshua made choices to do only that which pleased His Father.
Yeshua was all GOD and all man at the same time.
He could have done His own will at anytime or the Scriptures is a bunch of baloney.
Yeshua has imparted into me all His life, He gives me the power, desire and ability to do the will of the Heavenly Father, this is what Grace is but there remains in me the power to make the choice to be an obedient child or a disobedient child.
I will say it from now to the day I put off this mortal body and put on immortality, I must learn obedience day by day as I grow from the trails and temptations that come my way everyday, just as Yeshua did.
He was not a robot, Yeshua did not fail but He could have failed it was His choice. Yeshua choose to obey His father in all thing and never do His own will.
Choosing to obey is not working your way into Yahweh’s Love, Yahweh loved us will we were yet sinners.
True obedience is a sign of love toward a God that loved us first when we had no ability to love or obey .
Yahweh does something men can not do , He can look at the heart.
Doctrine is not nearly as important as is the heart.
Many do obedience to be seen of men, Yahweh is only looking for children that live with a heart that desires to please Him and treat those around them with the same loving kindness He has loved them with.
“Believing with the heart “as in John 3:16 and the obedience I am talking about are the same thing……
John 3:16 (King James Version)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him (obeys Yahweh from the heart those things He said) should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (Amplified Bible)
16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.
A child that trust their earthly father, is an obedient child. The opposite is true of a disobedient child.
Faith without work is dead James said……Faith without obedience is dead would be another way to put it.
Obedience is corresponding action to what ever I say I believe.
The Gospel has been so perverted by human reasoning it is not recognizable in our day.
Perverted teacher have made the Gospel some abstract idea, a skeleton with no organs, muscles
or tissue.
Ephesians 6:6
Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.
Ephesians 6:5-7 (in Context) Ephesians 6 (Whole Chapter)
1 Peter 1:22
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart.
1 Peter 1:21-23 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 John 3:3
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
1 John 3:2-4 (in Context) 1 John 3 (Whole Chapter)
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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First off, i suppose that your use of Yeshua to describe Jesus is comforting to you as evidence that you have grown in the Lord. This comes from some of those who believe that one cannot understand the New Testament without understanding the Old. It is not even remotely so! His name is Jesus, which is the Greek translation, which is the language that He gave us His words in. Have you been waiting for me to mention something about that?
Paul was not married and had no children. Where did he learn what He knew about marriage and children from? It was by revelation of the Lord, which is, plain and simply, how we have any knowledge of Him concerning anything at all. If it isn't revealed, then we make it up.
We are not so different from person to person when it comes to His plan. If He is no respector of persons, why would He treat us differently in the revelation of Christ as our life, or in coming to it?
This post is about the straight gate and narrow way. No matter who you are, we all get into, through that narrow definition of the meaning of life as He gives (has given) it to us. Else, by your definition, each must 'do' his own thing. That is uneven. His provision is wonderful, to say the least, and it is not uneven. It is universal. It works for each and every believer who will trust Him this way. Let me note that "few there be that find it." That is because most are perpetually making arguements that prevent them from receiving the full revelation of Christ their Life, clinging to a notion that separates them from His love. If anyone prays, let them pray for 'receivness'. That would be best.
You say [True obedience is a sign of love toward a God that loved us first when we had no ability to love or obey.]
We don't 'love towards Him'. We love by letting Him fill us. We are His tabernacle, a sacrifice. Rom 12:1 (I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.)
Until we let Jesus do it all, we are in bondage to the elements of this world.
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Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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If number of years has any significance, then i have 38 of em. Thirty four of them have been in awareness of said truth. Don't let your understanding trip you. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." Jesus.
Therefore, if Jesus will reveal (revelation) what you should think in your heart, you will be what He wants you to. It is power over death and deception! No one wants to be deceived. No-one.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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MH,
His name is Yeshua in the Hebrew tongue of which his mother and disciples called Him. Yeshua means Salvation in Hebrew.
Proverbs 30:4 asks "What is His (God) name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?" Well you hear the name of the Father when you say HalleluYah! The greek name for Yeshua is Iesous.
God is just a title. He also has a name, Do you know it?
Yeshua quoted from the Old test a lot. 80 times He quotes from Duet, so whats your point? That we do not need the foundation? That the prophets and the writings were for naught? That the old Test did not point to someone?
That "all scripture is good for reproof, doctrine, correction, ect.." that Paul told Timothy about in his NT letter to him needs to be tossed out and put aside? For we both know he was speaking of the OT scriptures for there was NO NT cannon at that time.
If we are to obey those who rule over us Heb 13
are we not to obey the Father as well. Just as Yeshua obeyed Him?
Isn't Yeshua the WAY back to the Father? Isn't He the Door back to the Father? Did He redeem us thru his blood Back to the Father? Didn't He show us how to Live a life Pleasing to the Father? Wasn't Yeshua obediant unto His death "not My will but Your (The Fathers) will be done"?
Yesua/Jesus is the Way back to the Father. And each of us will give account of himself to God. Rom 14:12
Let us not judge one another anymore.
Everyone must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling.
Would like to expound more but must go to work.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Years of age make no difference, having children make no difference and I made no such claim….
I only was pointing out we are as children and can learn from their example.
Michael , I have ask you about Yeshua our example, and obedience even unto the cross.
Yeshua did not fail but He could have failed it was His choice. Yeshua choose to obey His father in all things and never do His own will.
I am not sure but you by your reference to the Old Testament….
quote:
This comes from some of those who believe that one cannot understand the New Testament without understanding the Old. It is not even remotely so!
It is an absolute fact that the Old Testament is the only completely correct commentary on the New Testament. Know one understood this more than Yeshua . Everything recorded in the New Testament is first expressed in the Old Testament.
The Apostle Paul, by religious people of our time period try to take his message and preach contrary teaching to the whole of scripture.
JAMES 2.…
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Michael, I let Yeshua answer for Himself, He is the author and finisher of Faith that saves…..
Yeshua said those that obey, do what His Father said would be saved…… those that did not obey, do what His Father said would be damned….
.Matthew 25.…
32All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;(A)
33And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.
34Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you [g]favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you [h]brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and [i]lodged Me,
36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me [j]with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me.(B)
37Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink?
38And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You?
39And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?
40And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [[k]in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me.(C)
41Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
42For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me and entertain Me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me [l]with help and ministering care.
44Then they also [in their turn] will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [[m]in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me.(D)
46Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.(E)
Michael , will you argue with Yeshua (He says the sheep hear and obey)
If they do not obey, their Faith is dead.
(I will start another thread on His Name) so as not to confuse the issue on this topic.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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BECAUSEHELIVES
I must repent and apologize. It has only been 35 years since i was born again.
It isn't what scripture says. It is what it means. Cover to cover, for all the writing in between, it means only one thing. Jesus is what it means; then what about Him huh? That is what is important. ![[updown]](graemlins/updown.gif)
Tis why He says, Mat 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"
I will stick my neck out and attest that three sentences by Jesus would be all it would take to make known what we need to hear. Even less probably, because of who He is.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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yahsway
Did Jesus walk the earth during the Old Testament, or the new? When did it become the New? Was He not under OT law when He walked. What else would He have quoted? Did He not fulfill the Law? Is there not thereafter, a new dispensation? I don't think you are following the conversation.
Jesus didn't show us how to live. He SHOWS us how to live; not only, He is how to live.
Unfortunately, people calling themselves Christian abide in unbelief of His life, and what it means to the believer. (Yea, i said that correctly.)
Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."
Thanks and Gawd Bless Ya every one. ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Michael,Seems your are smarter than Yahweh,
Yahweh took the Old and New Testament to reveal to us the amazing sacrifice that Yeshua one day would become, that was ordained from the foundations of the world.
you said... quote:
I will stick my neck out and attest that three sentences by Jesus would be all it would take to make known what we need to hear. Even less probably, because of who He is.
You still have not responded to Yeshua's obedience to those things He suffered, and Him being our example.
Michael , I have ask you about Yeshua our example, and obedience even unto the cross.
Yeshua did not fail but He could have failed it was His choice. Yeshua choose to obey His father in all things and never do His own will.
I am not sure but you by your reference to the Old Testament….
you said...quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This comes from some of those who believe that one cannot understand the New Testament without understanding the Old. It is not even remotely so!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is an absolute fact that the Old Testament is the only completely correct commentary on the New Testament. Know one understood this more than Yeshua . Everything recorded in the New Testament is first expressed in the Old Testament.
The Apostle Paul, by religious people of our time period try to take his message and preach contrary teaching to the whole of scripture.
JAMES 2.…
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Michael, I let Yeshua answer for Himself, He is the author and finisher of Faith that saves…..
Yeshua said those that obey, do what His Father said would be saved…… those that did not obey, do what His Father said would be damned….
.Matthew 25.…
32All nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them [the people] from one another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats;(A)
33And He will cause the sheep to stand at His right hand, but the goats at His left.
34Then the King will say to those at His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father [you [g]favored of God and appointed to eternal salvation], inherit (receive as your own) the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35For I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you [h]brought Me together with yourselves and welcomed and entertained and [i]lodged Me,
36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me [j]with help and ministering care, I was in prison and you came to see Me.(B)
37Then the just and upright will answer Him, Lord, when did we see You hungry and gave You food, or thirsty and gave You something to drink?
38And when did we see You a stranger and welcomed and entertained You, or naked and clothed You?
39And when did we see You sick or in prison and came to visit You?
40And the King will reply to them, Truly I tell you, in so far as you did it for one of the least [[k]in the estimation of men] of these My brethren, you did it for Me.(C)
41Then He will say to those at His left hand, Begone from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels!
42For I was hungry and you gave Me no food, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,
43I was a stranger and you did not welcome Me and entertain Me, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me [l]with help and ministering care.
44Then they also [in their turn] will answer, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45And He will reply to them, Solemnly I declare to you, in so far as you failed to do it for the least [[m]in the estimation of men] of these, you failed to do it for Me.(D)
46Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but those who are just and upright and in right standing with God into eternal life.(E)
Michael , will you argue with Yeshua (He says the sheep hear and obey)
If they do not obey, their Faith is dead.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Michael,Seems your are smarter than Yahweh,
Luke 6:40 "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master."
Mat 10:24 "The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord."
Your comment is pleasantly noted! So!
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
I don’t spend my time worrying about being obedient. My position, if I am in correct relationship with Him, His intended, is that, if my obedience is fulfilled, then all I will worry about is the possibility of disobeying! It is positional. If I am outside of obedience, then I will be constantly trying to obey, which requires ‘doing’, which puts one ever under judgment and performance issues. If I am, by His grace, obedient, all I will worry about is the possibility of disobeying.
Jesus didn’t give believers an example of how to live. He gives us a life to live; a life to live by – His! That is why He said:
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
The wine is the Holy Spirit. The body is flesh on the bones, His life imparted to us by faith.
An example of how to live would leave you (plural, meaning anyone) doing it in your own strength to measure up to the example. He gives His life that we may live, saving us from drudgery and failure because it is in His Love to do so. So let me ask you, are you abiding in Jesus, or in your concept fantasy of Him, or of how you think that He would have you do it? When He asks you on that day what you did, how will you answer Him? Will that be enough?
Understand, IF ALL THAT JESUS DID WAS TO GIVE US AN EXAMPLE, HE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE STAYED HOME. You (plural) cannot even live up to His example. So what does that then leave us? Forgiveness? Do you think that His plan was for us to continually not live up to His example so we could get constant forgiveness, so He died for that? Then you think that He designed us to fail so that He could carry a big stick! Tragic! Some folk plainly think so. It is true in the sense that Satan, the accuser of the brethren roams about with a big stick if you are on the wrong side of Grace. But God has a place of refuge where the stick bearer can only wish that he could smite you. Scripture so declares it. Scripture says to find it, and get in it.
But CALLING ALL FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH! Anyone out there; do you think that just trying to live up to an example is what Jesus was talking about when He said:
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Every man chooses his belief, but mine is chosen for me. You can’t do His life, but you can have His life.
Shades of believing, which is the multitudes who follow Him! Which shade are you? Do you want to be a shade, or to shine?
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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If you Have His life, then you will certainly walk as He walked, Paul said he walked that way and we were to also walk the same said way.
Yes, abundant life indeed, but also a life of picking up your Own cross and following Him. If you do not have trials and persecutions then I question if your life is truly His, for He said we would also suffer such things.
And you are correct, Yeshua did not come to be just our example but our Sin offering and now our mediator, correct? Why must He be our mediator? So that if we sin, we have forgiveness and He is our way to the Father. He intercedes for us on our behalf.
If one is born-again, of the Spirit, then when one disobeys/sins (and you will know it by the Grieving of the Holy Spirit that resides within you)you now have a mediator who intercedes for you, Yeshua HaMasiach!
Its not enough to just believe or know about Him. You must Know or Yada Him, Yada meaning to be Intimate with Him.
Like a wife being intimate with her husband and wants to know (Yada) him and wants to know what pleases him so that she can please him and hear
Well done thy good and faithful wife(servant).
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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That was pleasant yahsway! I was beginning to think you were a Jehovah's Witness ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Believe me when i say this: I have persecutions that i cannot even speak of, and wish i could. I have trials just like the next guy. I stepped on a nail the other day! I am belittled and harassed. I blow it sometimes. But something I know now, is that the negatives are calling cards for the one who is positive, who is in me, who has a manifestation of Himself prepared. I can react, or i can yield, with praise and thanksgiving. Reacting is not bearing the cross.
Definition: Bearing the Cross, in the simplest statement, is when you die to what you want, and live to what Jesus wants (a critical moment of deliberate decision). It cannot be said more simply. This, of course, involves His accepting His whole plan. You cannot hold back anything, or be selective. In other words, Bearing the Cross = forsaking all and following = dying to self; and the end of self, is the beginning of Jesus. If it seems like a high price to pay to trust Him this way, it is because you are not recognizing Him for who He is. That means, you don't trust. Then how is He going to work with you? Remember the Pearl of Great Price! Do you want the priceless Pearl, or your best guess? This is your calling, should you decide to accept it. (Mission Unimpossible)
I will tell the story about my early experience after being saved, momemtarily.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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Wow MH, a JW, where would you get that idea?
By the way, Im not a SDA either.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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A Jehova's W recently gave me the same sermon on the name of Jesus, encapsulated in a message that God has a name. ![[happyhappy]](graemlins/happyhappy.gif)
I talked to a Mormon recently. They talked more about Jesus than i've heard. They've ramped it up become more appealing (deceptive). By the way. i call them More On's ov latter day pranks! The other i call joke of a witness. I don't know if i am wrong, but it is soooo funny! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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MH, really? I know they call Him Jehovah but that is not a good translation. It means the God of destruction.
There are many gods as that is simply a title. Just like the word lord. also a title, we know that for Yeshua is called the King of kings and Lord of lords. Theres many "lords" in England ya know.
Also in scripture Prov 30:4 the question is asked about our God, "What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?"
But I like Yeshuas prayer in John 17 where he states in verse 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given me out of the world...
So whats in a name? a lot. God changed Jacobs name to Israel, Abrams name to Abraham, Yeshua re-named Simon Bar-Jonah to Peter, ect..
And each of these names mean something.
You know you can be talking to a Muslim and they refer to Allah as god. Thats why we have this controversy going on now where people for example President Bush who stated that we (meaning christians) worship the same God as the Muslims just for the simple fact that they refer to allah as God. But we know that we do NOT worship the same God.
God is not a name, it is a title. Thats why I prefer to identify the God I do worship. And He has a name. YHWH (Yod-hey-waw-hey) Yahweh.
But most of the time I call Him Father/Abba.
In the encyclopedia americana 1945 edition says under the topic "God"
"God (god) Common Teutonic word for personal object of religious worship, formerly applicable to super-human beings of heathen myth; on conversion of Teutonic races to Christianity, term was applied to Supreme Being."
The Jews call Him "HaShem" meaning "The Name". They verbally call Him God but will only spell it G-d for respect for the name as they say. But God is not a name, it is a title for there are many gods.
Why was the Sanhedrin upset with Paul? In Acts we read where they said"Is this not he who in Jerusalem destroyed those who called on tis name? Remember Yeshuas words that He came in His Fathers Name?
The man who gave us the hybrid word "Jehovah" was Petrus Galantinus. The letter "J" didn;t even exist on the plant until about 1520 CE. The letter is less than 500 years old.
"J" came from the letter Yod and was brought into the Greek with the letter "IOTA" or our letter I since the Greeks had no "Y".
Yeshuas name was given to His earthly patrents by the messanger Gabriel because He would SAVE His people from their sins.
The Hebrew term for "save" is SHUA, while the Greek term is SOTER and the Latin is SALVARE. So why do we see the name JESUS written in our English translations?
If you stop 50 people coming out of a church service and ask them what the name of the Creator of the Universe is you will probably hear God, Lord, but these are titles, not names.
Jeremiah 23:25-
verse 26 "How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deciet of their own heart,
v27 "who try to make My people FORGET MY NAME by their dreams which every one tells his neighbor, as their fathers FORGOT MY NAME for BAAL (Baal means Lord)
Baal, Lord, Dagon, worshipped by the babylonians, calling him Lord. This was at the time the Jews would not pronounce the Name of God preferring to call Him Adonai(My Lord).
They forgot His name.
Why would we have names meaning something such as Adam, Eve, Abraham, ect.. and the The Creator simply gets a title along with the other pagan gods? That doesn't make sense.
Salvation is in His name. Rev 19 says "And His name Is called the Word of God. The word of Yahweh. John says that In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
In the beginning was Yeshua, and Yeshua was with Yahweh and Yeshua was Yahweh. He was in the beginning with Yahweh.
If you read in Gen where the children of Israel had to pick up their "quota" of manna for each day, in the strongs the word "quota" from the hebrew meaning is "word". Wow, what a revelation. There is so much to glean from here.
The word made flesh, the manna from heaven, from the Father whose name means to save.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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What’s in a name? I enjoy that kind of stuff, I really do. I find it interesting, but I have a reference of my own that I draw on: Theomatics. I am often stunned that people who hear of this do not know the significance of its meaning, or the value of its discovery. They don’t have a clue. One man even told me that they do this stuff just for the money. I will tell you that what is in this book is part of what makes my life richer.
If you don’t know what Theomatics is, it is the study of the numeric patterns that result from taking the bible texts, which were written in the slang, the spoken Greek of Jesus’ day, (which is where we get our translations from) by translating the alpha letters to their corresponding numeric value. Only the Bible does this consistently straight forward. If there is any defect in the manuscript, the pattern breaks down. This literally is useful as an acid test for whether we have the original fluency preserved in the text that we call Holy.
The powerful aspect that I am drawn to for the sake of this conversation is that the Greek value for Jesus is 888. Think of a music scale. There are seven letters within; A,B,C,D,E,F,G. Do, Rey, Me, Fa, So, La, Tea, Do. Did you ever sing that in school? In playing a scale, the seven (God’s perfect number) notes of the scale are played, and the scale is completed by playing the first note again. It comes full circle in order to sound complete. The last note, the only one that is repeated, is the Eighth note. Seven is God’s perfection, eight is the new beginning. Jesus is 888, hence we have the Alpha, and the Omega, the beginning and the end.
In describing the way that Theomatics works, as a practical matter of discovery, the following paragraph from the text of the book is used:
"The name for Jesus in Greek is Iesous, and it has a theomatic value of 888.This number is extremely significant throughout the theomatic design of the Bible, and later in this chapter we will discuss its significance in full. At this point, however, there is only one important fact that you the reader must remember, and that is the following: The many references to Christ in the Bible are all structured around the number 888."
It is no accident, this name.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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MH, no accident indeed! Much like the Hebrew Gematria. Yes, I know it and have studied it in the past.
Its funny, Hebrew letters are 22 plus 4 jots and titles amking 26 in the hebrew alphabet.
The Aleph/Taw or Greek Aplha/Omega is written down in the origonal Hebrew scripts of the Tanach, virtually all the way thru the entire Old Test, and Many Hebrew sages and scholars scratch their heads till this day wondering what that symbol means.
Of course as believers we KNOW WHO that symbol is referring to. Truley they have scales on their eyes much like Paul had on his before his conversion.
Yes, I love this stuff too as I believe there is so much "SOD" (hebrew word for deeper meanings) in the scriptures than we could ever possibly fathom.
But to be sure Yeshua is all thru the scriptures from Gen-Rev. Its a seamless Book, Amen? Shalom
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Amen brother. Shalom! You do make me grin!
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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MH, Im your Sister and better to grin than to frown!
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Hebrews 12...
6For the Lord corrects and disciplines everyone whom He loves, and He punishes, even scourges, every son whom He accepts and welcomes to His heart and cherishes.
7You must submit to and endure [correction] for discipline; God is dealing with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not [thus] train and correct and discipline?
8Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all].
9Moreover, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we yielded [to them] and respected [them for training us]. Shall we not much more cheerfully submit to the Father of spirits and so [truly] live?
10For [our earthly fathers] disciplined us for only a short period of time and chastised us as seemed proper and good to them; but He disciplines us for our certain good, that we may become sharers in His own holiness.
11For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it [a harvest of fruit which consists in righteousness--in conformity to God's will in purpose, thought, and action, resulting in right living and right standing with God].
MH, Again I will point you to Yeshua's words...
Matthew 5:19 (Amplified Bible)
19Whoever then breaks or does away with or relaxes one of the least [important] of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least [important] in the kingdom of heaven, but he who practices them and teaches others to do so shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
MH you try to make the message of Yeshua something it is not…
Yeshua said “whosoever shall do and teach them”
Acts 16:1
AND [Paul] went down to Derbe and also to Lystra. A disciple named Timothy was there, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer [she had become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and the Author of eternal salvation, and yielded obedience to Him]; but [Timothy's] father was a Greek.
Romans 1:5
It is through Him that we have received grace (God's unmerited favor) and [our] apostleship to promote obedience to the faith and make disciples for His name's sake among all the nations,
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that if you continually surrender yourselves to anyone to do his will, you are the slaves of him whom you obey, whether that be to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness (right doing and right standing with God)?
Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the Law and have terminated all intercourse with it, having died to what once restrained and held us captive. So now we serve not under [obedience to] the old code of written regulations, but [under obedience to the promptings] of the Spirit in newness [of life].
1 Corinthians 8:3
But if one loves God truly [ with affectionate reverence, prompt obedience, and grateful recognition of His blessing], he is known by God [ recognized as worthy of His intimacy and love, and he is owned by Him].
The scriptures are given to the Church so we may learn obedience … study, show yourselves workman that need not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Truth....
…2 Timothy 3:16
Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),
The apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers given to the Church to instruct, mature the Body into the full stature of Yeshua.
When a person is Born Again, they aren’t instantly transformed into this obedient child of Yahweh!
You can philosophy all you like about being like Yeshua but the simple truth is just as a natural child grows and matures into obedient sons and daughters, so does the spiritual sons and daughters.
Obedience and doing Yahweh’s will come as we yield to the Spirit of Truth.
Ephesians 4...
6One God and Father of [us] all, Who is above all [Sovereign over all], pervading all and [living] in [us] all.
7Yet grace (God's unmerited favor) was given to each of us individually [not indiscriminately, but in different ways] in proportion to the measure of Christ's [rich and bounteous] gift.
8Therefore it is said, When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive [He led a train of vanquished foes] and He bestowed gifts on men.
9[But He ascended?] Now what can this, He ascended, mean but that He had previously descended from [the heights of] heaven into [the depths], the lower parts of the earth?
10He Who descended is the [very] same as He Who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things (the whole universe, from the lowest to the highest).
11And His gifts were [varied; He Himself appointed and gave men to us] some to be apostles (special messengers), some prophets (inspired preachers and expounders), some evangelists (preachers of the Gospel, traveling missionaries), some pastors (shepherds of His flock) and teachers.
12His intention was the perfecting and the full equipping of the saints (His consecrated people), [that they should do] the work of ministering toward building up Christ's body (the church),
13[That it might develop] until we all attain oneness in the faith and in the comprehension of the [full and accurate] knowledge of the Son of God, that [we might arrive] at really mature manhood (the completeness of personality which is nothing less than the standard height of Christ's own perfection), the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ and the completeness found in Him......
.....17So this I say and solemnly testify in [the name of] the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the heathen (the Gentiles) do in their perverseness [in the folly, vanity, and emptiness of their souls and the futility] of their minds.
18Their moral understanding is darkened and their reasoning is beclouded. [They are] alienated (estranged, self-banished) from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the ignorance (the want of knowledge and perception, the willful blindness) that is deep-seated in them, due to their hardness of heart [to the insensitiveness of their moral nature].
19In their spiritual apathy they have become callous and past feeling and reckless and have abandoned themselves [a prey] to unbridled sensuality, eager and greedy to indulge in every form of impurity [that their depraved desires may suggest and demand].
20But you did not so learn Christ!
Colossians 2:8 (Amplified Bible)
8See to it that no one carries you off as spoil or makes you yourselves captive by his so-called philosophy and intellectualism and vain deceit (idle fancies and plain nonsense), following human tradition (men's ideas of the material rather than the spiritual world), just crude notions following the rudimentary and elemental teachings of the universe and disregarding [the teachings of] Christ (the Messiah).
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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The revelation may be in you, without your being in the Revelation.
2 Timothy 3:16 (Your call out) Though there is instruction in the Bible, the Bible should not be viewed as an instruction manual. It is a revelation, period. Either you have, and are in the revelation of Him, or you are not! Therefore you should seek, and not be satisfied until…. This is why He says to “Seek and ye shall find.” Also that, “The Spirit will guide you in all truth.” If your obedience comes out of you as one who does not know what it means to be baptized into His death, which is Paul and the epistles, then all you produce is dead works, for you cannot understand being baptized into His death. This means that you live, not Christ, and your well intended obedience is unto dead works:
Rom 8:7 “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” This verse shows why you need to:
Rom 12:2 “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may PROVE what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
So we understand that:
1Co 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. “
Therefore, though it is a hard saying, you IIPeter 3:16 “wrest the scriptures to your destruction.” Literally! Not that you will not be saved, for:
1Co 3:15 “If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. “
In other words, when you think you understand, do you? For scripture says that satan masquerades as an angel of light, meaning that he can look and sound like the truth, and there is no shortage of that out there. Sincerity is not enough! It is a dead work. Well meaning and good intentions are a fact of almost all denominations, but it is fruitless. If they thought not themselves well meaning, they would not be there. Some however, will dig down to the Pearl of Great Price, getting past their ‘good intentions’. There is a secret place in Christ that you will only find if you turn it all over to Him. Have you? You cannot know being led of the Spirit until you do, and if you die right now, will you have to explain to Him how that you operated from the ‘pride of self’ in trying to please Him, certain that ‘you’ were right.
Romans 1:5
It is through Him that we have received grace (God's unmerited favor) and [our] apostleship to promote obedience to the faith and make disciples for His name's sake among all the nations,
There is a Baptist obedience to the faith, and they can demonstrate it (sorry if I step on any toes). But there is a Spirit obedience that they cannot know, because they do not know what obedience is except by a carnal mind. It is the same for anyone claiming to ‘do’ what He says.
Joh 5:39 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.”
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
I notice that you are pounding away with the same message that you have been all along. You are consistent. You feel very strongly about what you are trying to express. So for so many years now Christ has been living in and expressing His life through you. I do want to believe that is the case Michael.....but I want to hear from you how this has changed you as a person and how it has changed the way that you look at life. I would like to hear some of the things that you give credit to Christ for in your life......besides being saved from sin. How has Jesus helped you touch other lives? Please share with us so that we can see what is the cause of your strong conviction.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Someone replied. I responded. So:
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Paul no doubt, did a lot over the course of his lifetime, however, he spent a lot of time in prison. Some stiff-necked individuals seemed to have a problem with that and resisted his council publicly, as though he gave not the word of the Lord, in truth. So I ask you, did he?
Php 1:16 “The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:"
I suppose that these thought that, if he were really preaching the ‘word of God’, that he would not be abandoned by God to be left in prison. They were of course – better, than Paul, better in council, higher and mightier in the sight of God in their own estimation, therefore also of men also whom they supposed themselves to enlighten.”
Will you compare with me?
2Co 10:12 “For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.”
So then, what matters most? Did he not say that that:
1Co 1:27 “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; “
If so, will you use my life as a gage, or the conviction of the Holy Spirit, who is in the words you have heard?
And if God raises me up, will you then listen?
How many times did He send a prophet to Israel saying to them that they were a stiffnecked people; that they turned their backside rather than their face?
I am but a foolish thing. Will you hear if i am a great preacher, with a doctorate? Would to God that they even, would listen. Amen!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Am I judging you because I ask you to share what Christ has done in your life? Your message seems to be that there are those who are "doing", but should be "having." Assumably, you have been "having" and Christ has been doing the "doing" part for a long time now. So what are some of these things in the past 30+ years that He has been doing? I would think that you would be exited to share, but it seems that you are offended by my asking. Your story is your story. It does not have to match Pauls, or Peters, or Johns or mine. I am certainly no one to judge what God has or hasn't done in your life. I would just like to hear in your own words how God has touched your life, and the lives of people you have come in contact with. Has the Lord help you restore any relationships? Has the Lord helped you overcome any addictions? Does the Lord have you ministering to a specific people?....for example: prison ministry, the elderly, young children, poverty stricken, kids without parents,drug-addicts, alcoholics, etc.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by freeinchrist (Member # 6867) on
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i am with daniel on this one. i don't think michael will answer it tho. it seems to me that its the michael harrison show or something. no offense michael..
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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My Life?
Thanks yo! No offense taken.
You ask me what I’ve done. Is that the Kingdom of Heaven? Will you compare with me, for I am certainly not the standard? There is one who is. See Him there, the twinkle in His eyes, crows-foot wrinkles in the corner because of His gracious smile, obviously heartily backed up with a hugely joyous, amused, embracing, and overflowing heart. He doesn’t compare you with others. See, it is not the Kingdom of Competition. It is the Kingdom of Service. The least shall be the greatest (Luke 9:48).
You ask what He has done in my life. If he has done nothing but deliver me from sin, preserve my spirit in perfect peace, and reveal His presence, then He has done a phenomenal, a staggering amount already. Do you have that testimony? For many have the distress of days which they describe as resulting from clouds hiding His face. He does not intend it to be so, little ones. He has provided better for you than to work for Him and to fear His wrath; to fail and to fear His condemnation. His joy is not in seeing you tremble and quake as you seek how to please Him, and fear whether you obeyed! He has made it so simple.
Do I have adversity? Do i have choices? Not too many in this free society are facing such an unsettling threat as I. I’m not sure whether to elaborate yet. But a direct result are things that manifest themselves in some ugly, mischaracterizing, misrepresentative ways in daily life. Some things go horribly wrong recently. Unbelievably, some of the worst of the worst of it comes from the very brethren.
As a result of the outset of this adversity, I came to a decision not to long ago to set out and “Feed the sheep,” which I am called unto by nature of revelation of the fact of knowing. Some would taunt me and say, “So you decided to obey?” Well, yes! You have to understand though, any who want to obey, that, you build a house from the ground up. That is, you build it from the foundation, up: You obey from the top down. If you don’t get the top tier first, nothing happens beneath. Many are trying to obey without getting the engine in front of the box cars. Therefore they don’t realize what they should, first in their own spirit, then in whatever comes next, because they don’t do the first thing first. I’ll come back to that someday.
So I started to say that, I did as this following scripture ‘commands’:
Luk 18:28 “Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
Luk 18:29 “And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, “
Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.”
You might wonder at the outset whether my train is in order after reading this, but the results are in His hand. I don't necessarily see them, should you? Nevertheless, if you are in the will of God, you might encounter resistance. Anybody been there?
Let me tell you a story momentarily, of packing the belongings and setting out to minister wherever, however I could. First i'll say that what happened to set me on this course was that an extremely adverse situation occurred which left me without a dwelling place in 2000. This caused me to consider my direction anew. So then I focused on education with the hope of bettering what I knew, for more money, not that what I had was bad. I hadn't gotten it yet, that i should set out.
I did this education stint also, partly to distract me from stinging misfortune of having been set upon by a treacherous tribe of individuals, who meant me serious harm, which is with me to this day, seven years later. I was distraught; yet the undercurrent of peace was stronger and by far bigger, and wonderfully unfailing. Anyway, someday I may explain it better. In the meantime I came to realize that I had cast away my life laboring for the meat which perisheth (John 6:27). All along I've had the desire to relate things of the Kingdom of God more widely. I focused rather upon whatever meager job was at hand, and the income. I, for boredom, after proving to myself whether I could do it, had many i'm afraid.
So, there is so much that I could say, but I want to focus on this small part about getting thrown in jail by a man claiming to be a Spirit Filled Christian.
I had an inclination to go out into the country to visit churches, and whatever, so i did. My first advent was to go to New Orleans after the hurricane, not knowing what I would do. I had worked in Florida after Hurricane Andrew, and thought I could be of use also in Louisiana. I have skills in construction trades, plus a couple of other things. Do you know, not for a lack of skill, but for some strange aberration in the fabric of life as I have known it prior to now, I was rejected by three ministries. It is pretty strange if you offer free labor to help a troubled area in the time of need and you are asked to leave three different places. You figure it out.
I am a Christian man, with the heart of God, and at the same time a reject. I wasn’t preaching. I was just fellowshipping and offering my skills. It is a long story. One of a few such. One of those to cast me away though, the last one, was Operation Blessing, of Pat Robertson’s 700 Club. I state this in prelude to my next story of adversity.
So, when I return to my hometown, I visited a newly established fellowship in South Carolina. This was on the property which used to belong to the PTL Club, with Jim and Tammy Baker and all.
But first, here is how my life was, as a Christian man, having stepped out on faith, after being caught in the crunch of something that I did not ordain, having no financial resources, I was gathering scrap metal to purchase fuel and food to be mobile. I had a homemade camper which I was pulling, which is where I was staying. (I still am.) Since scrap metal did not pay for campgrounds, I have managed in other ways.
But on this particular day I had attended fellowship at this newly established location of some people claiming the Spirit of God, and good will towards men (But not me). As I said, it was situated on the property which used to be PTL Club. Since I had visited there when they were robust as PTL, and my being a Christian, I felt, in its afterlife, a part of it still. But it had a new owner; a property developer with a cold heart.
I mentioned that I was collecting scrap metal, a very low paying affair. Neither did I trespass, or break-and-enter to get it. In this wealthy society, it is around because people discard it regularly. And I have inquired of people who were tearing out equipment for discarding, as they remodeled buildings, gone into dumpsters, you know, walked the highways. Well, suffice it to be said, there are creative ways to do this if one knows where to look, and what to look for. In fact i could make a living off of the landfill, with the Lord's help, if i could gain access.
In this infamous day I had left the Church, which was in the buildings which remained after the defunct PTL. Oh, and lest I forget to mention, I inquired of those responsible for such a decision, if I could pull from the Church’s dumpster, those things from which I could glean the copper and aluminum, which they were throwing away as they remodeled. Theiranswer was that they were throwing nothing away and they refused me.
Mat 10:42 “And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.”
You thought this passage was talking about the drunks?
Anyway, I left there for other parts of the former PTL grounds which were under development for homes, and ministries, camping and such. I discovered copper in the rubble of demolished buildings and set to gathering it. Mind you, I didn’t ask. However, few men on earth would have accused me of stealing, as this man did, and put me into jail, where I had never been in my life; especially a man calling himself Christian. This man did, and followed it through to the day in court where judgment was made against me. It cost me all the money I had in my pocket, roughly $400.00, which still left me with onehundred some odd, which was tithe money, God’s money. My own was sucked away, the only that I had to my name. Plus I was under a cloud, feeling more highly scrutinized thereafter, making it difficult to continue.
Rather than drag this story out at this point, I will mention this, that there are passages in Timothy and Corinthians about how the rich abuse the brethren, and this man was very rich. There also are passages in the Old Testament about leaving the corners of the field for the poor and travelers to glean. In doing what I did, where I did, I felt in God’s Grace, yet I saw the first time ever in jail. I had my money taken from me there and reissued to me in a prison system check, which I had to embarrassingly carry to my bank to cash. Now I have a record with fingerprints and a mug shot, me a Commandment preaching Christian, who loves the Lord, who set out to do whatever.
It is a Tsunami to me. I am turned over, spun around, and holding my breath as the wave pounds me, trying to knock the life out of me, and this in a free country. What must it be like to challenge the powers that be in a less fortunate land, by witnessing to Jesus?
This story could go on. Needless to say, there are some thoughtless readers who will delight in pounding on me after they read this. But because Grace stands firm, I stand firm in the Joy of the Lord.
So what should my life look like? Do you have a pattern or a mold? Shall i consult you? But for now, Peace!
Now, let me add to that the smallest of things. I have since been to California, thinking maybe i was being led there. I had six hundred dollars when i left and went via Missouri. At one point i was at Las Vegas with five dollars fifty cents in my pocket and an empty tank. I had a choice; go in and gamble my five, or put gas in the tank and drive. I put it in the tank, not knowing if i would be sitting on the side of the road with no hope, within ten minutes. Do you know, that five miles down the road, some debris was on the side of the road, which i recycled, and made the next leg of the journey. That's how it is!
Charles Trumbull says that "Life fairly teems with evidence of what He will do."
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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and what does it mean to be carnally minded?
what does it mean to walk according to the flesh?
To walk according to the flesh is to follow the sinful desires of ones old life.
To walk according to the Spirit is to follow the desires of the Holy Spirit, to live in a way pleasing to Him.
verse 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. This is NOT talking about born again believers. "Those that ARE IN the flesh" characterizes peoples very nature AND is a stronger description than the activity of WALKING in the flesh. The phrase therefore refers to UNBELIEVERS "who cannot please God."
Paul lays out 2 directions of life and their consquences.
We are actively to work at growing in holiness and "putting to death" any sin in our hearts or minds, as well as in our words and deeds.
But it is only by the Spirit that we can succeed in doing so.
Paul is giving encouragement in verse 14 NOT to live according to th flesh, BUT to put to death the deeds of the body. The more fully people are led by the Spirit, the more completely will they be OBEDIANT to God and be conformed to His Holy standards.
This leading is not to be restricted to objective knowledge of the commands of scripture and conscious efforts to obey them, though it most certainly includes that, but rather it more fully includes the subjective factor of being sensitive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit thruout the day, which will never encourage one to act contrary to scripture.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
________________________________________
verse 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. This is NOT talking about born again believers. "Those that ARE IN the flesh" characterizes peoples very nature AND is a stronger description than the activity of WALKING in the flesh. The phrase therefore refers to UNBELIEVERS "who cannot please God."
________________________________________
Incorrect! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
It is in fact talking about born again believers. You can take what you heard b4 Jesus and reapply it now. It filters out you, so that Jesus can be seen, by you, if by nobody else (but he will be). Even unbelief in the believer is that which cannot 'please God'. Therefore, the call to repent is repeated until unbelief is is fully repented of, until Jesus is your heart, not rather, standing aside there in your heart somewhere waiting on you to acknowledge Him. See you are comparing yourself with those behind you, instead of He who is ahead of you.
quote:
________________________________________
quote:
We are actively to work at growing in holiness and "putting to death" any sin in our hearts or minds, as well as in our words and deeds.
________________________________________
Wrong! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Trying will only fail, ever! You cannot by trying, but by having, and walking in it, if you will receive it. How do you receive it? By believing (which is repenting). The only faith given man is the capacity to believe. Thereafter, all faith is His faith, meaning, of Jesus, in real time, like helium in a balloon. Starter faith is the grain of mustard seed faith, which is belief. From that grows the tree of who you become after Him, the Kingdom of God in you (Mark 4:30~4:32)! If the seed is germinated by belief, the seed grows. Seed faith is belief from within the heart, towards Him. Never mind all the talk about seed-faith that is out there.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Belief is a choice! You choose to, or not to believe, and His faith imparted is your reward.
My message, the most basic premise is based upon Galatians. Replace the word law anywhere in Galations with 'doing'. Replace the word faith with 'having':
Gal 3:12 And the law [doing] is not of faith [having]: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [which he cannot successfully for he will try and fail.]
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law [doing] in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith [having].
That is by promise, which is by believing unto, which is of faith, which is Him manifesting it, which is you thanking Him for it, which is instead of you trying because He is doing it, and you are having it by promise, and without faith it is impossible to please God, which is what this passage is all about:
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Christians who are thinking that they are spiritual are walking in the flesh if they have not, thru faith, found their way to the head, meaning they have not sought the Lord to put first the thing that He wants them to put first:
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Therefore they can be said to wander in the wilderness of the 'flesh'. They are short of His desire for them. They still have a veil over their heart, even as Paul said of the Hebrews.
[/list]
"Unbelievers" still characterizes believers whose faith is not yet made perfect because of the stubbornness of the flesh! Every epistle is about this.
I am not disputing your assertion concerning the completely unsaved. I am saying that Paul's epistles are written to believers, about believers, though they apply to the unsaved in the same way.
Rom 7:19 "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do."
That i do, because i try but fail thereby.
Rom 8:8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
They are in the flesh by nonbelief in the promise, and power of God who delivers from the evil that you cannot deliver yourself from by trying.
Rom 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
For who to be carnally minded? The Christian.
Rom 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Fulfilled! Get the dictionary. That sounds like a choice! Flesh is what? It is a vail that separates us from His presence, which vail is done away with when the heart turns to Christ..... The flesh is all that comprises that which realizes us separate from Him in union wherein we have fellowship with Him through faith of the operation of God.
Jesus is Real! Get ahold.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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i don't keep this post going. I just reply to replies. Isn't that how it works? And why saith thou to me thateth thou thinketh tis the michael show. My words focuseth one upon Jesus, who He is, and what He does! Yet thou hearest not these sayings, and do what you want to do, which is what Cain did.
That was fun!
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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MH, how do you exercise your faith?
read 1Peter 1:15-17
Notice 17
Does it not say that the Father judges each ones work?
I understand about believing and recieving Messiah Yeshua.
I understand that as far as salvation is concerned, there is nothing I could do to earn it, BUT
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" 1John 2:6
"And whatever we ask we recieve from Him, because we Keep His commandments AND DO those things that are pleasing in His sight."
"Whoever believes that Yeshua is the annointed One is born of Yahweh God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God AND Keep His commandments.
For this is the LOVE of God, that we Keep His commandments. And His commandments are not Burdensome."
So MH, do you love Father God? I know you believe(have faith) and have recieved salvation thru Father Gods only begotten Sons sacrifice, but how do you personally exercise such Faith?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Bear with me sis. I will add to this post. It will be my joy, but right now i will comment just a little:
quote:
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked" 1John 2:6
How? By doing? I know you said
quote:
"AND DO those things that are pleasing in His sight."
But it is by 'having'. I will elaborate by editing this post shortly.
quote:
I understand that as far as salvation is concerned, there is nothing I could do to earn it, BUT
You have to ask yourself what is salvation? It is a whole package! It includes all that He has done, and is doing on your behalf. If I tell you I am going to give you five dollars and I lay it on the table, will you have to 'do' something? You will have to pick it up, maybe, to assimilate it. It is yours, but to 'have' it, you will have to pick it up, or at least acknowledge to yourself that it is yours. Belief is like that.
If I tell you that you have to climb this ladder and pick it up over there off of the shelf, you will have had to work for it. This is not a good illustration because even to pick it up off the table is to work for it, sorta. But if I put it in your hand, you have it. It is yours! So the question is how do you appropiate it?
quote:
So MH, do you love Father God? I know you believe(have faith) and have recieved salvation thru Father Gods only begotten Sons sacrifice, but how do you personally exercise such Faith?
I'll be back on this! God bless, and thanks for the question!! ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
quote:
Does it not say that the Father judges each ones work?
Did Jesus work? Some may argue yes! But He says Himself that His Father doeth the works. Then the Father judges what the Father did. Here is what is important:
- Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus believed and received. That is our work also. It is always in the present tense, now! Reread: "This is the work of God, that ye believe." Not 'do'. Again, I will say more on this by editing this post.
Do you "keep His commandments?" Some will say you can't. Jesus says you can.
Do you love your brother? Really? You can't think of anyone you are spiteful towards, jealous or envious of? John says that you are in the darkness if you do not, and cannot know God. What is he then talking about? After all, he is talking to saved quote, unquote, people. Well, he means that they are not in the fullness of the light, the relationship that Jesus longs for. He is indicating that they should look for something more that they haven't found. Jesus says in Revelation that they are 'lukewarm'. Here is a problem, people who think that they are on fire, are not yet, as they think that they are. There is something more that makes them complete in Him, and rather than searching for it, they set out to 'do', which is in "superfulity of zeal." Times up. I'll be back.
Yeshua Bless!
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
So we understand that:
1Co 2:14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. “
Michael Harrison, do you think you are more walking in the Spirit than the Apostle Paul…
Paul understood more about walking in the Spirit than an individual with the exception of Yeshua Himself the Church has ever encountered.
But Paul also understood the old man (the flesh) is ever present and must be kept under control by how Paul said …. “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” -- I Cor. 9:27.
MH, we also understand that:
Romans 7… 22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Your understanding stinks…..
That’s as kind as I can be!
Your message is one that makes the Christian experience some kind of mystical magic mobo jumbo..
Instead of practical living.
Just plain take up your cross and follow me "Yeshua said"...
Death to self that Yeshua may live.
Faith is all about Yeshua, He did His part, but He did not do our part.
Trust, obey, love, Him
All the Israelites had to do to have the death angel pass over was obey putting the Blood on the door post and stay inside.
All Noah and His family had to do was obey what Yahweh said, build the boat, get inside and He would do the rest.
But you can’t get away from the obedience part on any thing Yahweh has said.
Every promise Yahweh has every given has a conciliation!!!!!!!
If you think I am wrong quote me your evidence from the Scriptures!
This subject is so important I will not let it go.
Eternity is at stake for multitudes people like you are lying to!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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You illustrate well what i have been saying! You are reading the text as something to 'do', not as a revelation of who Jesus is to you. If you will read the whole chapter nine of Corinthians you will see that the reason that he beat his body, and worried about being a castaway was because the body of Christ had a hard time swallowing him, and what he was saying about grace. He worried about being a reject because they wouldn't listen. This passage about beating his body is his illustration of the circumstances of his life, in preaching the word of truth.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Well, i didn't add to the previous post. I just made a new one here.
Exo 19:8 “And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. “
You have to understand that the law represents all that had to be ‘done’ to be sanctified unto the Lord in those days. This was so that God could be manifest among them. Otherwise, He could not dwell among them. Their faith was in ‘doing’ the law which had been given, so that He could bless them with Himself.
There was a day coming though, wherein He would dwell in them, instead of among them:
Heb 8:11 “And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.”
And they shall really know me, it says! How, by doing for Him? Not: By having Him in the sanctification of the Spirit through circumcision of the heart. That means who He is, and what He does. That means, doing is by Him. He does, you benefit.
You see, we think we know Him, and we do! However, He is calling us to a place where we ‘really’ know Him. For some reason, we assume that we already do to His satisfaction. Yet the word points out to us that something is amiss, and we all continue ‘doing’ what we do, thinking we are pleasing Him, trying. All the while we are ignoring the beseeching word that doesn’t make sense to us, which would point something out to us if we would let it. For whatsoever doth make manifest is light. That is the purpose of it, the word.
We all use certain terminology to describe these faith things. One such is to say that He substituted for you on the cross. Right! Well, you leave off part of it. You think that He died so that you could be accepted, and many are flat pleased with that, end of discussion; but you are baptized into His death, and raised with Him from the dead, which means, He died on the cross in your place, so that he could live in your place, together, for you and with you. He doesn’t accept you. He changes you, creates you anew. (But the old man within doesn’t yet get it and must be broken.)
So, on that note, so many think that He imputes righteousness! That’s what the word says, but what they don’t understand is that He is righteousness. So He imputes Jesus!
Let me put it like this. What does God do? He completes you! Therefore, you live by Him, but there is a condition to realizing it in its fullness! It is a condition of obedience by submission, which happens whenever you acknowledge His presence in your heart and let Him be in control of it all, an act of your heart and will. Until then you are not Spirit led, but rather grieve the Spirit by frustrating Him, tying His hands if you will, by walking in the flesh. Oh, it seems spiritual. Well, He knows that you are well meaning, but….You are not listening. He says “Be still and know that I am God.”
Jesus had this relationship with the Father:
Joh 5:19 “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. “
He follows after. He is Spirit led. He doesn’t initiate anything trying to please the Father.
But trying is self will, not submission.
Rom 4:4 “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt,”
i.e. ‘doing’, ‘trying’ to do the will of God instead of believing for the will of God to be done in their life is leading, not following.
Looking again at:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by [having] without the deeds of [doing]. It isn’t that anything goes undone. This is how it gets done. It is beyond you in that you are having His will done in your life by looking to the one who IS doing it all; to whom the glory belongs, for no flesh shall glory in His presence. So trying is robbing God.
1Co 1:29 “That no flesh should glory in his presence,” which is self determination.
So the only requirement to see it in effect is to let Him, by faith, be in control of it all, and follow. I said it before, and I’ll say it again, this is your cross. It cannot happen if you do not first believe that He is in you.
“Thy will be done in earth, as in heaven.” Really learn what ‘all’ means. He will show you if you ask.
Joh 6:28 “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might WORK THE WORKS of God?”
Joh 6:29 “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. “
The works of God come with the territory of having Him as your life. Believe on Him, who He is, what He does, what He is doing. He is the Vine, you are the branch and He works through you.
Who or what do you identify with? Everyone without exception identifies with someone or something. Behold our justification, that is, if we can identify with Him! We are not justified separate from Him but in Union with Him are we justified – by His life in us, and His working. This comes by faith, which is believing, which is a – choice. Choose to believe.
What am I saying? He loves you and wants to pour out upon you more than you can ask or even think. But He doesn’t have you, and He cannot. He does not want you to work for Him. He wants to work for you. It is called His Gift! It is His hearts biggest desire. He died for this and you won’t let Him.
I’ll talk about the Lord’s Prayer next time, I think. “Deliver us from Evil.”
I almost forgot. So how do you appropriate it? Awwww! You are still looking for something to ‘do’. He will appropriate it if you let Him do it all. Could ‘all’ possibly also mean ‘appropriation’? Until you stop, you will not see Him. If He doesn’t have your attention, how will you see His salvation?
Charles Trumbull wonderfully says it like, “It is not in asking, but in thanking, not in praying, but praising.” You have because He died to give.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Posted by freeinchrist (Member # 6867) on
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first of all, M.H. it was wrong for me to say in a recent post(michael harrison show) thats was wrong and a sin as far as i see it. please forgive me. i do have a question michael. It is not i that lives in me but Christ,so that is the having part right ?
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
Joh 6:28 “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might WORK THE WORKS of God?”
Joh 6:29 “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. “
The works of God come with the territory of having Him as your life. Believe on Him, who He is, what He does, what He is doing. He is the Vine, you are the branch and He works through you.
Michael Harrison. [B]
He works through you only as you yield and obey to His will.
Define “Grace” please, “Grace that saves that is.
You deal only with the sovereignty of Yahweh and His finished work.
You never speak of mans responsibility to that finished work.
The sovereignty of Yahweh and mans responsibility are inseparable twin when it come to Salvation.
MH you are like so many in this day of apostasy, you do not have the right definition of “GRACE” that Saves!
Define “Grace” please, “Grace that saves that is.
MH, You completely missed what Paul is saying in 1st Corinthians 9……
http://books.google.com/books?id=_fY2AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=when+i+have+preached+to+others+i+myself+should+be+a+castaway&source=web&ots=ot91svG2Ln&sig=-ubniuWkwh4ZTjhqU3UWfppaE50#PPA177,M1
A.D. 59.] CHAPTER IX. 189
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly ; so fight I, not find some argument for drinking» that shall be a sin to their consciences.
Perhaps the world has furnished no
stronger argument in favour of total
abstinence than the example of the
Grecian Atkktae. It is certain that
their example, the example of men who
wished to accomplish much by bodily
vigour and health, is an effectual and
irrefragable argument against all those
who plead that stimulating drinks are
desirable or necessary in order to increase
the vigour of the bodily frame.
1 But we. We Christians. 1 An incorruptible.
An incorruptible, an
unfading crown. The blessings of
heaven that shall be bestowed on the
righteous are often represented under
the image of a crown or diadem ; a
crown that is unfading, and eternal.
2 Tim. iv. 8. James i. 12. 1 Pet. v. 4.
Bev. ii. 10; iii. 11 ; iv. 4. The doctrine
here taught is, the necessity of
making an effort to secure eternal life.
The apostle never thought of entering
heaven by indolence, or by inactivity.
He urged, by every possible argument,
the necessity of making an exertion to
secure the rewards of the just. His
reasons for this effort are many. Let
a few be pondered.
(1.) The work of
salvation is difficult The thousand
obstacles arising, the love of sin, and
the opposition of Satan and of the
world are in the way.
(2.) The clanger of losing the crown of glory is
great. Every moment exposes it to
hazard, for at any moment we may
die.
(3.) The danger is not only
great, but it is dreadful. If any thing
should arouse man, it should be the
apprehension of eternal damnation and
everlasting wrath.
(4.) Men in this
life, in the games of Greece, in the
career of ambition, in the pursuit of
pleasure and wealth, make immense
efforts to obtain the fading and perishing
object of their desires. Why
should not a man be willing to make
as great efforts at least to secure eternal
glory 1
(5.) The value of the interest
at Blake. Eternal happiness is before those who will embrace the offers of life. If a man should be influenced by any thing to make an effort, should it not be by the prospect of eternal glory ?
What should influence him if this should not '!
26. I therefore so run. In the Christian race; in my effort to obtain the prize, the crown of immortality. I exert myself to the utmost, that I may not fail of securing the crown. l Kot аз uncertainly (aux M\us). This word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It usually means, in the classic writers, obscurely.
Here it means that he did not run as not knowing to what object he aimed. '
I do not run at haphazard ; I do not exert myself for naught ; I know at what I aim, and I keep my eye fixed on the object; I have the goal and the crown in view.'
Probably also the apostle intended to convey this idea, ' I so live and act that I am sure of obtaining the crown. I make it a great and grand point of my life so to live that there may be no room for doubt or hesitancy about this matter. I believe it may be obtained ; and that by a proper course there may be a constant certainty of securing it; and I so 4VE.' О how happy and blessed would it be if all Christians thus lived ! How much doubt, and hesitancy, and despondency would it remove from many a Christian's mind ! And yet it is morally certain that if every Christian were to be only as anxious and careful as were the ancient Grecian wrestlers and racers in the games, they would have the undoubted assurance of gaining the prize. Doddridge and Macknight, however, render this * as not out of view ;' or as not distinguished ; meaning that the apostle was not unseen, but that he regarded himself as constantly in the view of the judge, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I prefer the other interpretation, however, as best according with the connexion and with the proper meaning of the word, t So fight I (¿in-u яття/'а). This word is applied to the boxers, or the pugilists, in the Grecian games. as one that beatcth the air :
27 But I ° keep under my
a Rom.8.13.
The exercise of boxing, or ßghting
with the fist, was a part of the entertainment
with which the enlightened nations of Greece delighted to amuse themselves. ^
Not as one that beateth the air. The phrase here is taken from the habits of the pugilists or boxers, who were accustomed, before entering
the lists, to exercise their limbs with
the gauntlet, in order to acquire greater
skill and dexterity. There was also,
before the real contest commenced, a
play with their flits and weapons, by
way of show or bravado, which was
called (naùfjLà^M, a mock-battle, or a
fighting the air.
The phrase also is applicable to a missing the aim,
when a blow was struck in a real struggle,
and when the adversary would elude
the blow, so that it would be spent in
the empty air. This last is the idea
which Paul means to present He did
not miss his aim ; he did not exert himself
and spend his strength for naught.
Every blow that he struck told; and
he did not waste his energies on that
which would produce no result. He
did not strive with rash, ill-advised, or
uncertain blows ; but all his efforts were
directed, with good account, to the grand
purpose of subjugating his enemy—sin,
and the corrupt desires of the flesh— and bringing every thing into captivity
to God.
Much may be learned from this. Many an effort of Christians is merely beating the air. The energy is expended for naught. There is a want
of wisdom, or skill, or perseverance; there is a failure of plan ; or there is a
mistake in regard to what is to be done,
and what should be done. There is
often among Christians very little aim
or object; tk:>rc is no plan; and the
efforts are wasted, scattered, inefficient
efforts ; so that, at the close of life, many
a man may say that he has spent his
ministry or his Christian course mainly,
or entirely, in beating the air. Besides,
many a one sets up a man of straw, and
fights that. He fancies error and heresy body, and bring it into subjection ; lest that by any mean?, in others, and opposes that. He becomes a heresy-hunter; or he opposes some irregularity in religion that, if left alone, would die of itself; or he fixes all his attention on some minor evil, and devotes his life to the destruction of that alone. When death comes, he may have never struck a blow at one of the real and dangerous enemies of the gospel ; and the simple record on the tombstone of many a minister and many a private Christian might be, ' Here lies one who spent his life in beating the air.'
87. But I keep under my body (Cmnma^ai). This word occurs in the New Testament only here and in Luke xviii. 5, " Lest by her continual coming she weary me." The word is derived probably from vrJaia, the part of die face under the eye (Passow), and means properly, to strike under the eye, either with the fist or the cestus, so as to render the part livid, or as we say, black and blue ; or as is vulgarly termed, to give any one a black eye. The word is derived, of course, from the athletic exercises of the Greeks. It then comes to mean, to treat any one with harshness, severity, or cruelty f and thence also, so to treat any evil inclinations or dispositions or to subject one's-self to mortification or self-denial, or to a severe and rigid discipline, that all the corrupt passions might be removed.
The word here means, that Paul made use of all possible means to subdue his corrupt and carnal inclinations ; to show that he was not under the dominion of evil passions, but was wholly under the dominion of the gospel. Ч And bring it into subjection (í-MK'iyf,-).:,). This word properly means, to reduce to servitude or slavery ; and probably was usually applied to the act of subduing an enemy, and leading him captive from the field of battle ; as the captives in war were regarded as slaves.
It then means, effectually and totally to subdue, to conquer, to reduce to bond- when I have preached to others, I myself should be a cast-away.
age and subjection. Paul means by it,
the purpose to obtain a complete victory
over his corrupt passions and propensities,
and a design to gain the mastery
over all his natural and evil inclinations.
1 Lest that by any means. Note, ver.
22. Paul designed to make every possible
effort to be saved. He did not
mean to be lost, but he meant to be
saved. He felt that there was danger
of being deceived and lost; and he
meant by some means to have evidence
of piety that would abide the trial of
the day of judgment.
l W/t». I have
preached to others. Doddridge renders
this, " lest after having served as a
herald to others, I should myself be
disapproved ;" and supposes that there
was allusion in this to the Grecian
herald, whose business it was to proclaim
the conditions of the games, to
display the prizes, &c. In this interpretation,
also, Macknight, Rosenmüller,
Koppe, and most of the modern
interpreters agree. They suppose, therefore,
that the allusion to the games is
carried through all this description. But
there is this difficulty in this interpretation,
that it represents the apostle as
Imth a herald and a contender in the
games, and thus leads to an inextricable
confusion of metaphor. Probably, therefore,
this is to be taken in the usual
sense of the word preaching in the
New Testament ; and the apostle here
is to be understood as dropping the
metaphor, and speaking in the usual
manner. He had preached to others to many others. He had proclaimed
the gospel far and near. He had
preached to many thousands, and had
been the means of the conversion of
thousands. The contest, the agony,
the struggle in which he had been
engaged, was that of preaching the
gospel in the most effectual manner.
And yet he felt that there was a possibility
that even after all this he might
be lost 1 / myself should be a castaway.
This word (li/oxiMic) is taken
from bad metab, and properly denotes
those which will not bear the lest that is applied to them; that are found to be base and worthless, and are therefore rejected and cast away. The apostle had subjected himself to trials. He had given himself to self-denial and toil ; to persecution and want; to perils, and cold, and nakedness, and hunger. He had done this, among other things, to give his religion a fair trial, to see whether it would bear all these tests ; as metal is cast into the fire to see whether it is genuine, or is base and worthless. In doing this, he had endeavoured to subdue his corrupt propensities, and bring every thing into captivity to the Redeemer, that it might be found that he was a sincere, and humble, and devoted Christian.
Many have supposed that the word " cast-away" here refers to those who had entered the lists, and had contended, and who had then been examined as to the manner in which they had conducted the contest, and had been found to have departed from the rules of the games, and who were then rejected.
But this interpretation is too artificial and unnatural.
The simple idea of Paul is, that he was afraid that he should be disapproved, rejected, cast off; that it would appear, after all, that he had no religion, and would then be cast away as unfit to enter into heaven. From the many remarks which might be made from this interesting chapter, we may select the following : 1 st.
We see the great anxiety which Paul had to save souls. This was his grand purpose; and for this he was willing to deny himself and to bear any trial.
2d. We should be kind to others; we should not needlessly offend them; we should conform to them, as far as it can be done consistently with Christian integrity.
3d. We should make an effort to be saved. O, if men made such exertions to obtain a corruptible crown, how much greater should we make to obtain one that fadeth not away !
4th. Ministers, like others, are m danger of losing their souls.
If Paul CHAPTER X.
TyjOREOVER, brethren, I •"-'-*- would
not that ye should felt this danger, who is there among the ministers of the cross who should not feel it! If Paul was not safe, who is 1.
5th. The fact that a man has preached
to many is no certain evidence that
he will be saved, ver. 27. Paul had
preached to thousands, and yet he felt
that after all this there was a possibility
that he might be lost.
6th. The fact that a man has been
very successful in the ministry is no
certain evidence that he will be saved.
God converts men; and he may sometimes
do it by the instrumentality of
those who themselves are deceived, or
are deceivers. They may preach much
truth ; and God may bless that truth,
and make it the means of saving the
soul. There is no conclusive evidence
that a man is a Christian simply because
he is a successful and laborious preacher,
any more than there is that a man
is a Christian because he is a good
farmer, and because God sends down
the rain and the sunshine on his fields.
Paul felt that even his success was no
certain evidence that he would be saved.
And if Paul felt thus, who should not
feel that after the most distinguished
success, he may himself be at last a cast-away 1
7th. It will be a solemn and awful
thing for a minister of the gospel, and
a successful minister, to go down to
hell. What more fearful doom can be
conceived, than after having led others
in the way to life ; after having described
to them the glories of heaven; after
having conducted them to the " sweet
fields beyond the swelling flood" of
death, he should find himself shut out,
rejected, and cast down to hell ! What
more terrible can be imagined in the
world of perdition than the doom of one
who was once a minister of God, and
once esteemed as a light in the church
and a guide of souls, now sentenced
to inextinguishable lires, while multibe ignorant, how that all our fathers were under • the cloud, and ' all passed through the sea ; o Ei.13.21,22. Num.9.18-u2. »1ÎX.M.1SHH.:«). tudes saved by him shall have gone to heaven ! How fearful is the condition and how solemn the vocation of a minister of the gospel !
8th. Ministers should be solicitous about their personal piety. Paul, one might suppose, might have rested contented with the remarkable manner of his conversion. He might have supposed that that put the matter beyond all possible doubt. But he did no such thing. He felt that it was necessary to have evidence day by day that he wax then a Christian. Of all men, Pau] was perhaps least disposed to live on past experience, and to trust to such experience. Of all men, he had perhaps most reason to trust to such experience; and yet how seldom does he refer to it, how little does he regard it ! The great question with him was, * Am I now a Christian'! am I living as a Christian should now ? am I evincing to others, am I giving to myself daily, constant, growing evidence that I am actuated by the pure principles of the gospel, and that that gospel is the object of my highest preference, and my holiest and constant desire 1 ' 0 how holy would be the ministry, if all should endeavour every day to live and act for Christ and for souls with as much steadiness and fidelity as did the apostle Paul!
CHAPTER X. Iir regard to the design of this chapter commentators have not been agreed. Some have supposed that there is no connexion with the preceding, but that this is a digression.
The ancient Greek expositors generally, and some of the moderns, as Grotius, supposed that the connexion was this : Paul had in the previous chapter described himself as mortifying his flesh, and keeping his body under, that he might gain the prize.
In this chapter they suppose that his object is to exhort the Corinthians to do the same; and that in order to do this, he admonishes them not to be lulled into security by the idea of the '
many spiritual gifts which had been
conferred upon them.
This admonition he enforces by the example of the Jews, who had been highly favoured also,
but who had nevertheless been led into
idolatry.
This is also the' view of
Doddridge, Calvin, and others. Mac-
knight regards the chapter as an independent
discussion of the three questions,
which he supposes had been
submitted to Paul:
(1.) Whether they
might innocently go with their friends
into the heathen temples, and partake
of the feasts which were there made in
honour of the idol.
(2.) Whether they
might buy and eat meat sold in the
markets which had been sacrificed to
idols.
(3.) Whether, 'when invited to
the houses of the heathens, they might
partake of the meat sacrificed to idols,
and which was set before them as a
common meal.—I regard this chapter
as having a very close connexion with
ch. viii. In the close of ch. viii. (ver.
13), Paul had stated, when examining
the question whether it was right to eat
meat offered in sacrifice to idols, that
the grand principle on which he acted,
and on which they should act, was that
of self-denial.
To illustrate this he employs the ninth chapter, by showing how he acted on it in reference to maintenance; showing that it was this principle that led him to decline a support to which he was really entitled. Having illustrated that, he returns in this chapter to the subject which he was discussing in ch. viii. ; and the design of this chapter is further to explain and enforce the sentiments advanced there, and to settle some other inquiries pertaining to the same general subject.
The first point, therefore,
on which he insists is, the danger
of relapsing into idolatry—a danger
which would arise should they be in
the habit of frequenting the temples of
idols, and of partaking of the meats offered in sacrifice, ver. 1—24. Against this he had cautioned them in general, in ch. viii. 7. 9—12. ,
This danger he puts forth by a variety of illustrations. He first shows them that the Jews had been highly favored, had been solemnly consecrated to Moses and to God, and had been under the divine protection and guidance (ver. 1—4) ; yet that this had not kept them from the displeasure of God when they sinned, ver. б. Не shows that notwithstanding their privileges, they had indulged in inordinate desires (ver. 6) ; that they had become idolaters (ver. 7) ; that they had been guilty of licentiousness (ver. 8) ; that they had tempted their leader and guide (ver. 9) ; that they had murmured (ver. 10) ; and that, as a consequence of this, many of them had been destroyed. In view of all this, Paul cautions the Corinthians not to be self-confident, or to feel secure ; and not to throw themselves in the way of temptation by partaking of the feasts of idolatry, ver. 12—14.
This danger he further illustrates (ver. 15. 24) by showing that if they partook of those sacrifices, they in fact became identified with the worshippers of idols. This he proved by showing that in the Christian communion, those who partook of the Lord's supper were identified with Christians (ver. 16,17) ; that in the Jewish sacrifices the same thing occurred, and that those who partook of them were regarded as Jews, and as worshippers of the same God with them (ver. 18); and that the same thing must occur, in the nature of the case, by partaking of the sacrifices offered to idols. They were really partaking of that which had been offered to devils; and against any such participation Paul would solemnly admonish them. ver. 19—22. Going on the supposition, therefore, that there was nothing wrong in itself in partaking of the meat that had been thus killed in sacrifice, yet Paul says (ver. 23) that it was not expedient thus to expose themselves to danger; and that the grand principle should be to seek the comfort and edification of others, ver. 24. Paul thus strongly and decisively admonishes them not to enter the temples of idols to partake of those feasts ; not to unite with idolaters in their celebration ; not to endanger their piety by these temptations.....continued on link listed
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for sharing your testimony. It does sound like you've experienced quite a few down and outs. I'm sure most of us have, but not all the same type and degree. I was removed from my parents at age 11 and put in a foster home. My mother was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and my father with grand-mal epilepsy.
You must be about my Dad's age, He is 58. I noticed that nothing was said about your family....your mom and dad, brothers and sisters? Were you ever married? or do you have any children?
I'm not competing with you Michael. I am just trying to figure out how to relate to you. Sometimes it feels difficult because it seems you disagree a lot with others views.....I'm not really sure I even disagree with your stance. I haven't spent my time arguing against your beliefs, I feel that I've spent more time defending my own. I dont believe that our beliefs contradict anymore than faith contradicts love and love contradicts hope, etc. Many of the elements of faith discussed by all of us combined would create a "collage of faith".
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Michael Harrison your doctrine, your message is faulty
quote:
Michael Harrison
My message, the most basic premise is based upon Galatians. Replace the word law anywhere in Galations with 'doing'. Replace the word faith with 'having':
Gal 3:12 And the law [doing] is not of faith [having]: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. [which he cannot successfully for he will try and fail.]
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law [doing] in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith [having].
That is by promise, which is by believing unto, which is of faith, which is Him manifesting it, which is you thanking Him for it, which is instead of you trying because He is doing it, and you are having it by promise, and without faith it is impossible to please God, which is what this passage is all about:
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Michael Harrison, you can not just make up definition that fit your ideas and think you can be excused for false teaching.
No dictionary anywhere on the planet or in the universe describes "faith" as "having" as you have tried to imply.
Faith is always an action word, it always implies trusting with corresponding action, and faith always implies obedience to someone or something.
Faith of the woman with issue of blood
Faith of centurion soldier
Faith of Peter when Yeshua told him to get out of the boat
Faith of the woman that continually came before the judge
Faith of David with the giant
Faith of Daniel and his commitment to pray no matter what the consequences
Faith of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego refusing to go against what was right in Yahweh’s sight
Faith of Noah to build the arc
Faith of Abraham
Faith of Hannah
Faith of Gideon
Faith of Elijah
Faith of Elisha
Faith of Ester
Faith of Mordecai
Faith of the man with the demon possessed son
Faith of the woman with the little girl that said even the dogs eat the crumbs from the masters table……
There are no examples of “Faith” without corresponding action, without an act of obedience, without trusting.
And likewise the Law does not imply ‘doing’ in the verses you named. The Law being referred to be the ceremonial law the Jews had twisted and perverted to make them look holy.
The new birth places the Law of Yahweh in the heart of the believer so they can respond, so they can, obey, before the new birth man or woman have no ability to obey, Paul say we were slaves to sin before “grace” before Yahweh’s divine ability, power, and desire came and made us alive.
But “grace” will not violate a person’s freedom to choose.
Michael Harrison can you, will you give the definition of “Grace” that saves, “grace” that please Yahweh, the New & Old Testament “Grace”?
Move in obedience or disobedience
Move in faith or move in doubt
Move in faith or fear
Move in love or move in hate
But if your are in Yeshua, if you are demonstrating His life you are constantly moving
Faith is not “having” Michael Harrison…
Faith is action on the word of Yahweh, faith is doing the will of Yahweh!…
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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becauselyhivs is so funny!
quote:
You deal only with the sovereignty of Yahweh and His finished work.
You never speak of mans responsibility to that finished work.
Man’s responsibility is to walk in the finished work. Having!
GRACE!
“Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. “
By grace:
Which is God doing for you all that needs to be done because you cannot do it for Him. If you could, then you would not need a savior.
Are ye saved through faith:
Having salvation, plain and simple, and the works of God, because He died to provide it. What can you do but receive it, and how? By believing. HE did it. You have it by the surrender of belief. It blesses His heart if you will receive it. This is His love for you.
And that not of yourselves:
Faith! You do not even have it. It says so right here. It is the Gift, of God. The only capacity for faith that any man has is to believe – little old seed faith of belief. If you believe, then He will fill you with the faith of Himself. Believe that? Belief is a choice. Choose to, or not to. Look around you. Everyone chooses one way or the other. Thank God I chose to believe, however it happened.
Not of works:
Do I need to say that again? You cannot add to it by self-effort of trying, or doing. You can live by it, but you cannot add to it. You cannot ‘do’ anything for Him that counts. You can do by Him if He does it. That requires faith, surrender by believing that He does it, and is ‘doing’ it. Notice the difference between ‘for’, and ‘by’.
Lest any man should boast:
As I said, if you could do it by doing, then you could boast. But my Bible says that:
1Co 1:29 “That no flesh should glory in his presence. “ You miss the straight gate and narrow way entirely as long as you try. Everybody wants to work for Him, but He wants to give you His life….. That is how it is. That’s how it is. He isn’t going to let you boast, except in Him.
1Co 1:31 so that, according as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
Grace! Glory be to God in Jesus name, Amen.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Freeinchrist
The Michael Harrison show? It is not a problem at all personally, only I couldn’t understand why it would be seen as such, and why you would say it. I’m not offended. I tried to think about it. I would change something if necessary so that you wouldn’t think that, or explain myself better, if possible. See, I intend to lead your (anyone’s) attention towards Jesus. It is a way of life. It is the only thing to do. Anything short of that and I would be dismayed that I even spoke. So…. (Althtough my name does appear on a few posts.)
Alright. Well. You said it well, that the works come with the territory. What happens though is that something really clogs the pipe for way, way too many people. The works can’t get through. These don’t identify with the Lord properly, through the proper concept of belief, the correctly yielded heart. They go to church and moan and groan wanting this done, and that done. They don’t see it. They go away lusting for things that, quite frankly, stop the flow of God, while He hears them and is so longing, but He can’t. He can’t tell them either. They don’t see it, because they don’t measure up to what He expects, because they don’t know what it means to put Him first. They just don’t offer the right sacrifice.
He expects them to believe and be full (thump on the podium, good and loud!). But they get tripped up under condemnation, trying to earn, thinking that they have to ‘do for Him’, in order to get from Him. That is not sitting in the armchair of His love and enjoying the show.
The devil tells them, “You are not doing this, and you are not doing that,” and bang! There you are under condemnation, then doing what He (Jesus) is not. That works well. Satan loves it. Big time defeat, frustrating the Grace of God.
Grace is giving. You want a definition? Having naturally follows.
not i that lives in me but Christ,so that is the having part right ? See, the question is are you letting Christ live. I am not saying that you are not. But this is how people clog the pipe. They point to that scripture and think that Christ lives cuz the word says so, but in reality they frustrate, and defeat His life in all that they do. There can be no works (or very, very little) if they defeat the very one by whom they live, because, they try to live for Him, and usually very little of that. Understand then, that they themselves live, by reason of this. Therefore, understand, they need to rather, let Him. You have heard of “Let go and let God.” Well, you need to let Him have and do it all. Fully! Come to that place of obedience. Then you can follow. Only then, can you follow, because then He will live. There is no compromise on this point.
I should stop there so that one can assimilate this, but I’ll go on. But this is very important because this is where having is. But it isn’t working because people are clinging to something that they will not let go of. No simpler way can I say it. It could be anything, so they need to find it. It could be a belief. It could be an object, or a goal. Anything. Clinging to something that makes you live.
If Christ is living, not you (yet you are - but by Him) who He is, is what He does. HE is the Word of God. He does the doing. It is why He exists. This slays the flesh! This terminates dead works. The will of God is done on earth as it is in Heaven. Amen!
If Christ is living in you, let Him. Believe that there isn’t anything that He is not absolute Lord of with regard to anything that affects you, with your permission, and He is in you. That means that you don’t have to control it. He does. Learn this. If He is in control of it – then you are not!!! There is no compromise on this. Learn that your emotions are no longer your own. His fill you. You will discover that you have the mind of Christ. You will make decisions that compliment Him, rather than dissent from Him. This is the power of God that delivers, of which it is written, “Sin shall not have dominion over you.” Sin is defeat, falling beneath His will. Sin is quite frankly, short of Him living in you because you override Him by living over Him. He conquered sin by His death on the Cross. The only way He will conquer sin in you is if He lives through you, as you cease interfering by your going on the Cross.
The point is, there is a place of surrender where you will see the salvation of God, and all the promise of Him. You must find what He is looking for.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
Grace is giving. You want a definition? Having naturally follows.
This is no definition; this is an abstract idea of a perverted Gospel.
Give some examples of men or women this abstract idea is made a reality in from scripture.
quote:
That is not sitting in the armchair of His love .
You think those that have been martyred for their obedience in not denying the Faith would agree with this heresy you are peddling.
sitting in the armchair and enjoying the show ….
That mentality is pathetic; Yeshua didn’t die so His Church could set back and enjoy the show.
With what I am hearing you say in print, I would say with the Apostle Paul you need to examine yourself and see if you are really in the Faith.
quote:
Are ye saved through faith:
Having salvation, plain and simple, and the works of God, because He died to provide it. What can you do but receive it, and how? By believing. HE did it. You have it by the surrender of belief. It blesses His heart if you will receive it. This is His love for you.
Believing is another one of those words that implies action; the tree does not produce fruit on its own but by the source of life in it.
But in the case of what the scriptures teach every tree does not yield its fruit, Yahweh has made mankind with the ability to choose to produce fruit of righteousness or unrighteousness.
You are trying to get around mankind’s choice and it can’t be done.
It only blesses The Father when His children walk in obedience…
Otherwise there would be no need for correction when they disobey.
Unless the child is really not His and just a bastard!
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi guys,
I just came upon an article online that seems to adress some of the strong beliefs that I have. The name of the article is "Lordship Salvation" biblical or heretical? by William Webster.....here is a little of what he says....
The altered message of today has deceived men and women by convincing them that Jesus will gladly be a savior even to those who refuse to follow Him as Lord. It simply is not the truth! Jesus' invitation to salvation is, "Come, follow Me".....practical acknowledgement of Jesus' Lordship, yielding to His rule by following is the very fibre of saving faith.....Believing is obeying. Without obedience, you shall not see life! Unless you bow to Christs scepter you will not see the benefit of Christ's sacrifice. That is just what Jesus said to the ruler. Jesus did not tell the rich young ruler simply to 'believe' in Him. He commanded him to become a disciple. This is Jesus' message in evangelism, a call to discipleship. Thus in Matthew 28:18-20 He is commissioning His disciples to follow His example. It is clear from these passages that Christ taught that salvation requires a committment to Him as Lord....END
I also noticed that John F. MacArthur also has a book out on the same topic ...The Gospel According to Jesus.
It appears that receiving Christ as Lord and committing to obeying Him are synonymous. Another words one cannot say that they have genuinely received Him as Lord if they have no intention on responding to His call of discipleship. If there are those who wish to call this "works" based salvation, then so be it.
Some prefer to call it "doing" what Jesus requires in order to be a disciple of His.
I've noticed that there are those out there who will build up there arguments around Paul's teaching possibly without realizing they are using it to attack Jesus' teachings. Isn't there a potential danger in that? Maybe that potential danger is the very reason that James makes the declaration that faith without works is dead...???
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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i am sorry about your difficulties Daniel. I am not a stranger to it myself. My mom had very similar, very extreme problems. I also know what it feels like to visit at an institution where there are so many unfortunately afflicted people. Sad.
When i was in elementary school there was a girl who had epilepsy. She had a fit during class. I panicked and ran out of class. It took me by surprise and shook me.
Your last post tells me how you feel, what you believe. I already know that about you. Jesus knows that about you. Is that what He wants you to know? That is how most people feel. That is how people that Paul and the Apostles were set to address, felt. It is the mainstream. People take it for granted and stubbornly feed in that pasture they have found. Jesus sends witnesses to call them to the chosen pasture, but they don’t listen. It is very hard.
This is hard to say. I cannot impart it. One has to seek for it. But what I am trying to say in part is that, what you think you are doing to obey, you are doing on your own, in your own strength. Therefore you are not descipling, you are committing feel good practices only, by and large.
I know that He speaks, or leads us. Take for example a man of my day who felt led to go to New York to preach. Three times he took up an offering to go there. It must have been hard to go home and say to his flock that he could not shake it; he must try again, and take up another collection for another fruitless trip. Eventually though, as a result of his obedience, a man, a foul man, a gang leader, vicious beyond description, got saved. His name is Nicky Cruze. And that is blessed! However, if you look at the apostles, by comparison, David Wilkerson, as I said, blessed though he is, he doesn’t fit seamlessly into that pictured by the book of Acts of the Apostles. (If this will help you have a clue about what I am saying.) God is calling us deeper, especially in this hour.
If you are in union with Him, which is our obedience, which is our calling, whatever He says do, you don’t do it. He does it by you. It is not as though you are outside of Him receiving instruction that you follow up on. He moves you into action. He moves. He moves you as your will is surrendered to Him. This is the love of God for poor and helpless, lovely little sheep.
When I point out the word, as I do in these posts, I try to get each one to read it more closely. If one does, they will find something out. They should at least become curious enough to ask Him about the meaning of them rather than take what they already know for granted, as though they have fully understood the meaning already.
For example:
1Jn 1:7 “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
We read ‘but if we walk in the light.’ We already, immediately go Amen! I’m saved and I know it. I got the Spirit. Church was great last Sunday because the Spirit was there. Thank you Lord, I am walking in the light. We then just skim over the next part, ‘as He is in the light.’ Wait a minute! As He is in the light. How is He in the light? I mean, your kidding right? Well there is a contradiction here. Either it can’t be done, and the word is wrong, or the word is right and I haven’t discovered the meaning but just a very little. (Rom 3:4) So you examine yourself to see if you are, if you love Him. If you do sincerely look, it doesn’t take long for you to say that you are not walking in the light as He is in the light. Therefore it can be said that where you are in your experience, is that, you are looking back, comparing with what you know, rather than comparing with what is in front of you to be known. Why, everyone else is doing it! It must be right! Not if you pay attention when you read the word.
Luk 9:62 ‘And Jesus said to him, No one, having put his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. “
So we look at this next part. I’ll rearrange it a bit, “the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.” That is a strong statement. It means as you walk in the light, His blood cleanses you from all sin, as, and if you don’t obey this, you walk in sin, a.k.a. the flesh! Then you are not pleasing to Him, not that He doesn’t love you.
The next part says, “we have fellowship one with another.” Listen! This is pretty extreme. The daily existence of almost any Christian that you will speak with, will not testify that this is so. And they don’t know how to get there. Do you understand the importance?
Now I like to switch verse seven and verse eight and read. It reads well this way, and delivers the message better.
1Jn 1:5 “ And this is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. “
1Jn 1:6 “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.”
1Jn 1:8 “ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”
1Jn 1:7 “But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. “
People get tripped up on verse eight. This is another example of not reading the word by facing it head on. They are willing to leave it at this (read verse eight), even take you to Romans 8 and have it out with you. But the condition of having fellowship with Him is clearly spelled out in verse seven, and the results are also plainly declared, plainly, and it is dramatic! So if you don’t measure up to this, you are equal to verse six:
1Jn 1:6 “If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. “
Mind you, the brethren don’t mean to be not practicing the truth. They just don’t yet understand it, which the obedient, and willing, will allow Him to call them unto. So, this is why I tell you that the obedience that everyone claims to be true in, is false obedience! I’m sorry. He exacts a tall price from His followers, those who would ‘obey’ unto discipleship. So the question is, do you want to walk in the light “as He is in the light.” Or do you want to follow these not so obviously mundane teachings that are prevalent?
I’ll stop here for the moment.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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First of all, faith is not an action word. To make it an action word is to makes it a dead works word. This is diametrically opposite to every word I share. It takes it out of God’s hands and makes self the conqueror. If God is the action, your action verb is in vain. It is a work of the flesh to make faith an action verb, since God does the doing, as you do the having. To make it an action word is the sin of Cain. Yes, I said sin.
Able had a relationship with God. It is apparent that it is so, for who would have thought of a blood sacrifice? Would you have? I would have never. Therefore it likely came out of relationship, of knowing. Otherwise, best estimate will have it that it was all that he had to offer, so he did.
He may not have been a strong person. His brother may have been the more excellent of the two. Cain was, ‘pleased with himself.’ Therefore he felt certain that his sacrifice was more excellent, no question. He gave what he wanted to give, because he thought it good, but it was not what God wanted. That’s the point. That he exalted himself proudly in his sacrifice was evident, because when it was rejected, that is, when he was reproved for his high self estimation, he was pricked! He flew into a rage because he did not get his way, which he thought should be right. Some poor fellow died for his inability to submit himself to the Father because he was self important.
People like becausely feel no remorse for nastily referring to this message as false doctrine, or a lie. They come on with this kind of rhetoric and frighten the sheep who would come and drink. If I recall correctly, sheep will only drink out of still water. The Lord will hold him responsible who is blinded by the sacrifice of getting themselves recognized by lofty verbage, who thrash the water!
Paul gave us 1Cor chapter 13. The love man! Here is how Paul did so nicely put it to the Hebrews one day when he was in a loving mood. He wanted them to move into the greener pasture of the Father’s provision, and put down the toys of action verbs in the name of submission.
Heb 5:11 “Of whom we have many things to say to you, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are so dull of hearing. “
Ha, ha ha!
I’ll bet their eyes got wide when they read that! Dull of hearing? Now that’s not being nice, love man. But you can bet your bottom dollar that Paul wanted to shake them and tell them to wake up. He goes on:
Heb 5:12 ”For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. “
In other words, you, thinking of yourself as Christian Powerhouses of faith because of your action verbs, are just a bunch of nursery schoolers who are still on baby bottles, and you are not ready for the solid food; and what about, “the first principles of the oracles?” What are they? The most important thing, the primary ingredient of relationship.
“Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. “
Full age! That is what he wants them to come into. One evidence of that is that they have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil, which they are unaware that they are unaware of. They cannot tell whereof Paul is speaking because they are not familiar with it yet.
But concerning the nursery days, he then says that you have been there already, and done that. Yet you are stuck there, and refuse to grow up. You let someone tell your itching ears that thing which the flesh is a sucker for, which feels good to you to do! But it is wrong. So he says:
“Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
This is the baby stage! Quit redoing over and over the “laying again of the foundation of repentance from ‘dead works’, and of faith toward (not of, or by - as in, per perfection) God.” Finally grow up. Don’t fall back into that. The “doctrine of baptisms, and the laying on of hands,” is our first evidence of being born into the Kingdom. It pleases our Father to enamor us with these perfectly neat and cool Heavenly trappings that are clearly not of ourselves. It is for our faith. They are however, nursery schoolers comforts that we are to look beyond. It was not intended for one to spend their whole Christian life simply playing with these toys. So Paul, he says to “go onto perfection.” That is, as he was just speaking in this chapter, the rest of God, the Union of Christ, as opposed to a child’s imitating by doing.
The person who is loves their life, who is most afraid to die, that He may live, is the one who will kick the hardest trying to live. They will say cutting things supposing themselves to be defending God. It comes out of their self righteousness, which is as dirty rags!
The gift of God is to have all that He offers. He will do it, if you will just give Him the Glory. It is a hard thing to humble yourself to this! But this is how it is. See His salvation today!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
Believing is another one of those words that implies action; the tree does not produce fruit on its own but by the source of life in it.
Yes! The tree stands perfectly still and the source produces the fruit! All the tree does is 'receive' and lift its limbs in praise for the Son!
2Ch 20:17 Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, 'stand ye still', and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; tomorrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you.
Isa 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and 'rest' shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not!
Psa 46:10 Be 'still', and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for the response. Correct me if I am wrong, that you do believe that obedience is important....so we see eye to eye on that. Ok, now you are saying that Jesus is the one who is carrying out this obedience in us so long as we are fully surrendered to Him. But if I am not fully surrendered then its just my obedience, which is vain. Ok, now let me put this belief system into practical application for a moment so I can understand you better.
#1Lets say there is an elderly woman who falls down and you are there to help her up. If you are fully surrendered to Jesus, then Jesus is the one who actually helped her up....ok next
#2Lets say there is an elderly woman who falls down and you are there to help her up. If you are not fully surrendered to Jesus, then it is only you who helped her up, and not Jesus.
In both scenarios the elderly woman is helped. So the will of God is fullfilled in both scenarios. Hmmmmmmm?
If one speaks on the importance of obedience to Christ, does that mean that he/she has not fully surrendered to Jesus? (You should not assume about me)
If one speaks on the importance of surrender to Jesus, does that mean that they are not obeying Christ? (as I should not assume about you)
Is it because I speak on the importance of obedience that you believe that I am vain, and that I seek to glory in my flesh? If it takes obedience on our part for God to be glorified, then who would speak against the importance of it? If the goal is to lift up the Name of Jesus, then why all the fuss about the means to obtain that goal. You want to call it 'His' obedience vs. 'our' obedience and you want to call it faith 'of' vs. faith 'in'. What is all this fuss for?????Especially if the goal is achieved
I have the feeling that I am in the midst of some individuals who love the Lord very much. If they are afraid to dissappoint God, then that fuels their desire to serve and obey Him. How can that be a bad thing?
How can anyone teach another how to fully surrender to the Lord? We can read scripture to see how others lived by faith, and we can listen to each others testimonies as encouragement. Michael, sometimes I get the feeling that you are more focused on feeling than purpose. It seems that you are continually trying to describe something that is beyond most of our comprehension. Our focus should be to get the Word out, and hope for positive response.
I do believe in the importance of surrender....in the sense of denying ourselves, taking up our cross, and following Christ. I also believe in personal responsibility and accountability in the Lord. We are constantly faced with circumstances where we can choose to obey or disobey God. Though I believe that a person can fall away, I do not believe it will happen to ones who are afraid to fall away. As far as sin is concerned...we are in a lifelong process of crucifying the old nature in us....never becoming perfect, but being perfected. God is not sitting by waiting for us to sin in order to cast us away....but if we sin, and we know it, we need to repent. That is where our relationship with God is real.
Sometimes the way that you try to describe surrender, it makes me feel like you must never struggle with sin because you have got the surrender part mastered. So the problem that Paul had with the Corinthians and sexual immorality....... Do you believe that was because they had not surrendered fully to Christ? or was it because they didnt want to take responsibility for their sin and repent? or both?
The last thing thing that I would like to discuss is this.....It has to do with metaphor and literalism. Now, when Paul used the expression Christ in me, was it not a metaphor? Is'nt the literal truth that His spirit is with us signifying that He is truely exalted to Gods right hand of power in Heaven. So Jesus performs His work through us ,by His spirit, in our submission to His will. So, Michael, when you say that it is Jesus "doing" the doing part, do you mean that it is Him literally? in the sense that you literally become Jesus yourself?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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This is some good stuff to work with Daniel. I’ll take a little bit at a time, and I am going to shock you.
quote:
If the goal is to lift up the Name of Jesus, then why all the fuss about the means to obtain that goal.
The means is totally important! Vitally.
quote:
So Jesus performs His work through us ,by His spirit, in our submission to His will. So, Michael, when you say that it is Jesus "doing" the doing part, do you mean that it is Him literally? in the sense that you literally become Jesus yourself?
Yes, but no!
quote:
As far as sin is concerned...we are in a lifelong process of crucifying the old nature in us....never becoming perfect, but being perfected.
quote:
when Paul used the expression Christ in me, was it not a metaphor?
See! Here is the root of a problem. Here is the message that in my ‘obedience’ I relate! Here is where “The breaking of the outward man,” as Watchman Nee described it in the title of His book, occurs; else there is no precious ointment from the believer as was evident when Mary broke over Jesus’ head the alabaster box. Here is where I shock you, yet not I, if you are able to receive it. These four excerpts that I have extracted tell a story of unbelief, and denial, not to be mean. For I aim to edify! These will help me describe the difference between obedience that is fruit, and that which is will worship. This will likely hurt.
When you say “was it not a metaphor,” you illustrate what it is for self to live. (It will be hard to address, because it is bottomless with clues.) For self to live, Christ is displaced in your life. You are deceived into thinking you are obedient, while you are really distracted from Him. You mean well, but don’t we all. It is no metaphor. If you have found the surrender that He is looking for, it is quite literal, and the world will kill you for it. There is a place of brokenness wherein you realize that it is true, not metaphorical.
What evidence do I have of that? Rather than answer directly at this point let me draw up this which you said: “As far as sin is concerned...we are in a lifelong process of crucifying the old nature in us....never becoming perfect, but being perfected.” This is profoundly ridiculous. Here is the point here: You still think that you are 'doing' it. If you live for two hours after getting saved, then I guess that is enough time for you, while another has to live for 58 years to crucify the old nature. What’s done is done. He 'done' it. You must surrender to it and walk in it. Here is the whole point that I would make (oops, not me but the truth of the word). When you reach sanctification, you have ceased to live, practically speaking, and He begins to be manifest on earth – in you. This is what He is looking for. If He waits for you to do it, it'll never get done, because you can't.
You can spend your whole life ‘doing’ it, whatever it is, but you will not be laying up treasure in heaven. You will be technically described as, in defeat! Is that where you are supposed to live, in defeat? No!
All proud people claiming to ‘go to the cross’ are not really. Taking up the cross explicitly means to them doing something that they don’t want to do, but that they are going to bite the bullet and do, because they are being obedient. That is vulgar in His sight. It is the wrong meaning. It is from the concept of ‘doing to earn’. Serving, however, is a joy. You can live in a camper, be diving in dumpsters and be happy.
When you say that Jesus works through us by His Spirit, that is so correct, but it is not complete. The reason He gives us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, for those who are shaking to consider anything having to do with feeling, is so that Jesus can be manifest to us, and in us - by His Spirit.
I listened to the radio today. The DJ talked about a book she was reading. It described how that Jesus ‘walked in our shoes’ so that He could relate to us on our level. That was before He died. He did it so that He could walk in our shoes after He rose!
2Pe 1:19 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:” Jesus the daystar.
When He said in Revelation:
“Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. “
Who was doing the speaking? Jesus. What did he say? If you open the door! Listen, who wants to open the door? All His sheep have gone astray. They are pleased with themselves and their diddly sacrifice. If you open, He says that He will “come in and sup with him – and he with me.” Metaphorical? Personal and real! Jesus will.
When He says in the gospels that “if you abide in me and I in you,” metaphorical? Notice in both cases there is a mutual, cross connection. You are both in each other. (All this information is in my other posts. ) I cannot say this strongly enough. You never become Jesus, but if you die (not just kid yourself) He walks in your shoes, whatever you want to call it. So whenever Paul says it is no longer I that live but Christ liveth in me, he is being literal. It just doesn’t happen without faith, and the frightening prospect of coming to the end of yourself. Until it does you are not sanctified unto Him.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Rom 16:27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
You are not being perfected. It is something He has already DONE! The only thing that is missing is for you to discover, and to walk in it. There is a discovery. Until you come to this point you have not even started to walk. You are nursery bound. Until then, it is not that He hasn’t done it. You are only piddling around and making excuses, using growing or some other heretical understanding for consolation, in violation of His commandment! You are in trespass!
Every scripture backs this up and I am ready, over and over to show it, but it is like my last post said, it is hard to tell the dull of hearing, who will smite you even if they could by way of being offended by what they cannot yet, or do not want to swallow.
I am not going to touch the old lady example. If the woman falls, of course, pick her up. Only realize, if Jesus didn’t do it, you might be at a loss when she brings you to litigation! (Lol, just a little reality of our times.)
This is hard to approach and explain. You have to be so careful. Yet if I don’t, though they stone me, I am responsible to Him for not! There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God, yet they will not enter in for unbelief. They not only will not enter the Kingdom, they prohibit others from entering in. Unless Jesus walks in your shoes, how can you be:
“1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. “
Fellowship one with another. You live in me; I live in you. You sup with me, and I sup with you. This doesn’t happen unless He cleanseth you from sin. Then He can embrace you this way. An unpenitent and untrue heart will not allow it though. It is not a growing thing.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God [who walks in me because he], loved me, and gave himself for me.
I live by HIS FAITH, moving, doing (by having). If Jesus doesn’t live in you, you are reprobate!
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be reprobates?
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life , shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Who is our life. Not ‘who our life is about’. This is literal. This is the same as saying Christ as me, which is how Norman Grubb says it. It is entirely scriptural, if you have passed from death to life, because "who is our life," describes this very thing. Examine the references.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
His life is our newness of life. His life in us.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Together with Christ, intermingled by faith. Union. Cross intersected. You live by His life.
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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Michael,
You said in your last effort to teach us the difference between "having" and "doing" this: quote:
You are not being perfected. It is something He has already DONE! The only thing that is missing is for you to discover, and to walk in it.
I think that many of us who are critically trying to discuss this matter with you don't understand how "to walk in it" is not to obey Jesus. How can "to walk" not be an activity? How can "to walk" not be something that one does?
I don't believe, and I'm sure that other participants in this thread, that salvation is like a conveyor belt that once a person gets on it by the Grace of God, which is given to him/her and not earned by any of his/her works of obedience, that it eventually drops him/her off into heaven without him/her having anything to do during the process of his/her santification. Such a doctrine would eliminate any personal consequences for free will and make salvation completely the active work and selection of God for every individual. That would be a position of extreme Calvinism.
You are apparently trying to clarify a narrow difference between "surrender" and "obedience", between "having" the Grace of God and "doing" His will through faithful stewardship and service. Through your many postings I don't think that you have been able to explain how one can "faith without works" (in the words of James).
Please clearly explain to us what you really mean by telling us that we need to "walk in it", referring to what Jesus has "done" for us through his death and resurrection. If this isn't some activity that we do, what is it? I will be looking for your answer, and I'm sure that others will be as well.
Bob
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Since I'm on thanksgiving vacation I have more time to fellowship here. You sure came back with a pretty quick response to my last post.
You stated that the means is important when it comes to achieving the goal of lifting up the Name of Christ. I do agree with you on that. I should have emphasized that a full understanding on exactly how all the elements work together to achieve that goal are not as important as the pursuit of that goal. The Lord surely can come and surprise us when we think that something is going one direction and it suddenly takes a turn. We can never think that we have God all figured out. If we are part of a bigger plan, then God is the one bringing the many pieces together to accomplish His will....when the stage is set for us we are to stand up for truth.....whether its before family members or High ranking officials.
Paul does use metaphors. There is no question on that. His objective being to make the truth become more alive to the hearers. If you say "Christ lives in me" and I say that "His spirit lives in me" it can virtually mean the same thing. I refuse to get webbed up in disputes over terminology. So long as we both understand what each other is saying, I believe that we can move on. Now, if you said that you actually become Jesus then I would feel the need to adress this issue further.
I am confused over your explanation on sin. Are you implying that there would not be a need for repentance in the life of one who is fully surrendered to Christ? That they dont sin?.......because it is Jesus "doing" the obedience part. I am not really understanding you on that issue. Surely we have many examples in the bible of Godly leaders who fell into sin.....did they not know how to properly surrender? This topic will need to be cleared up, I venture to say, before I will better understand your stance. There seems to be a connection between the message that you are trying to convey about surrendering and the disposition of sin as a result of it....but I need you to explain it more to really understand what you are trying to say.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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Michael,
You "greet" me, but you obviously don't know me or need to get to know me before you make such judgments about me as in your following comment: quote:
I will have to come back and say more, but i cannot do anything for you as long as you do not believe and receive, as long as you are not able to accept the finished work and what it means.
I do believe, and I have done so since I was baptized in 1941 at the age of 10. I have received God's grace, and I'm thankful everyday for his forgiveness and cleansing power. I don't believe that God is "finished" with me, yet I'm extremely thankful for his patience with me as I seek to be more faithful and fruitful in my service and the stewardship of the gifts that he has given to me.
If you want to know more about me before you make such judgments, I invite you to examine the statements that I have written on "Christianity and other good topics". You will find them on my website here: http://www.christianityetc.org.
I began preaching and teaching the good news of Jesus Christ in 1953, shortly after you were born. I encourage you to spend some time in the study of Calvinism, Arminianism,and other expressions of historic theology before you go much further in your efforts to teach a "new" level of salvation theology.
You have not explained to me how "to walk" is not an activity of obediently following Jesus but it is to "have" his grace, particularly when he said the following:
quote:
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love....You are my friends if you do what I command. (John 15:10, 14)
You put an uusual interpretation on some very familiar passages of Scripture and you seem to be ready to judge anyone who doesn't seem mature enough to accept your "high" theological doctrine of salvation. I'll keep examining your postings to see if I can make any theological sense out of them, but your position doesn't seem to me to be in keeping with biblical theology.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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I've been busy and have not had time to read this long interaction. So I'll just say that salvation is 100% free (Jesus died on the cross for us while we were yet sinners).
But beyond salvation rewards can be had but for rewards one must work in the vineyard of the Lord, which to me means "help publicize the coming kingdom of God through preaching and openly stating that Jesus died for our sins and rose again on the third day". For that work, we receive rewards.
But only Jesus secured salvation for us; man has no part in that at all. So if any of my effort is aimed at "securing salvation", I'm wasting my effort because only Jesus can pay and did pay for our salvation on the cross, suffered, died, and rose again.
But if any of my efforts are geared toward rewards by helping the Lord with His Kingdom proclamation, then my efforts are redeemable in rewards ("be you over 10 cities" and "be you over 5 cities" and "be you over 2 cities").
Salvation a 100% free gift, finished, paid for entirely by Jesus. Rewards is something that we can choose to work for.
By not adequately separating how we receive salvation from how we receive rewards, discussions ensue in which salvation and rewards are discussed as if they are acquired in the same way, but they are NOT acquired in the same way, and not even by the same person. Salvation is acquired ONLY BY JESUS and rewards are acquired ONLY BY THE BELIEVER.
However, faith without works is dead. That shows that faith is connected to works and faith or salvation does not entirely stand alone and can be received only if it evolves into some works.
And that is explained by the parable of the talents where the one with 5 talents made 5 more talents (with his salvation he got 5 more salvations or he preached extra good) and the one with the 2 talents got 2 more salvations or work in the vineyard of the Lord.
But the one who got one talent (one salvation) did not do anything at all and then the Lord said, "take from him even that which he has", and what has he? He has salvation because Jesus secured that for him.
But when the person who had salvation did nothing to help others get saved by helping to proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God, when that person does nothing, it appears that God will even take back what he had, namely salvation through Jesus. Because, faith without works is dead.
Salvation is free to the person who helps out in the vineyard of the Lord, no matter how little. Even if it is just money to another Christian who IS preaching and teaching the good news, which the parable of the talents called "at least you should have put it in the bank". Because this sone person DID NOTHING, even what he had, namely salvation through Jesus, is apparently taken away from him too because God has declared that faith without works is dead.
However feebly, faith and works ARE connected to each other, and one must do at least a tiny little bit in order to be allowed to keep the faith-salvation part.
"Learn of Me, My yoke is easy." But it IS a yoke and yokes are FOR WORK.
with love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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TB, sorry you don’t like my greetings. However it is always interesting to interchange with someone new.
I must tell you that I felt awkward when I wrote that about your ‘receiving it’. FYI. I thought perhaps it shouldn’t be said, but it wasn’t strong enough for me to change it. Probably I was just focused on other things. But here we go. This is another salvo, and what I have done is delete the previous post, because it didn’t, in retrospect come out like I wanted. Much of it will sound the same, if you care to read it at the bottom.
I respect your years in Christ, and your admonition about reading up on Calvin, and other things. We’ll see.
Only this morning I listened to a radio preacher talk about being filled with the Spirit. That is not my topic, but something he said resembled something stated, a post or two ago by oneinchrist and earlier by yahsway. So let’s make it easy. He said there is a continual process of breaking your will, changing your emotions and renewing your mind. I just wanna say ‘get past it’. But I won’t. You know; get to the head of the class. That is what He is calling you to do. Quit the continual process, and receive and walk in the finished work. I will make no firmer statement than this probably: You are sanctified the very moment that you believe; that is, the very moment that you believe unto it. In the meantime, you are not! It is not a shade of gray, hence the strong verbiage given to us in 123John, and Peter by sanctified believers. If you’ll read them, these are not the words of dabblers in Christianity. These are firm, crisp words of Christian faith that set a standard. Come to the end of yourself and the beginning of Jesus in one single step.
If you remember the days of the SLR Cameras, you will be familiar with focusing a lens. If you focus beyond, or in front of what you are wanting to represent as the subject, the out of focus subject becomes blurred. The Christian faith is like that. If you focus short of the intended, you get an un-discernable picture in yourself. It has nice color, but what does it mean? It is like Paul saying “if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who will hear?” What you have is a picture of Christians that is out of focus everywhere you go. And people will fight you over it if you challenge it. I have this calling to:
Heb 3:13 exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
And to:
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
I know that you challenge that, but here is my next strong statement: Jesus saves you, and delivers you from sin by replacing your heart with Himself. This statement is worth treasuring! Anything less is out of focus, and non productive.
There is a sword in the land. It is parting to the left and to the right. If you don’t see it yet, you will. You will fall on the one side or the other. In Revelations Jesus says to be hot or cold, not lukewarm or He will spew you out of His mouth. Therefore I beseech thee that I may speak. You have been kind to listen, and I don’t mind questions or challenges. We are in this together to the Glory of God. and I can explain myself.
Old Post:
You don’t do what you already have. If you listen to prayers of people, we spend time praying for Him to be what He already is. We spend time praying, asking Him to do what He already has done. It is silly. If you have it already, you don’t do it. How do you do it if you have it? If He is that already, you just thank and praise Him for it being so. Don’t ask Him to do what He has done; thank Him for what He is knowing, and doing. Trouble is, you don't believe that, and you want to do it for Him.
Let’s face it. We live in the earthly, and the Spiritual (the heavenly) at the same time. Therefore the earthly verbiage is prolific according to a style of living here. Something said like, ’To walk' doesn’t imply that you are walking. It is in the spiritual, simply having by perserverance. You are not producing something. Obedience doesn’t produce something. It just receives something through faith, (that He does). You are receiving something that is 'done', and you didn’t do it. You are walking in what is fact. He said His works were finished from the foundation of the world. This is the rest of God.
Paul says to ‘run’. You don’t run in fact. You run by standing.
Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
You notice that he doesn’t say, as you will hear in Christian communications everywhere, go attack! Take! Name, Claim! He says simply to stand – and have! It is breathtakingly simple!
It is a way of relating things. You must understand the spiritual way of understanding things related in earthly terms. (You have to look past.)
Let me talk about obedience. One could say that following is obedience! Of course! But it is following after, by which one receives. If you are led, you are a son. If you set out to establish whatever, expecting Him to accept it, you were not led. How can you know if you are led if you are not “closer to Him than a brother?” Nuf said for the moment.
About this quote:
________________________________________
which is given to him/her and not earned by any of his/her works of obedience, that it eventually drops him/her off into heaven without him/her having anything to do during the process of his/her santification. Such a doctrine would eliminate any personal consequences for free will and make salvation completely the active work and selection of God for every individual. That would be a position of extreme Calvinism.
________________________________________
Believe unto Him and He will sanctify you by the circumcision of faith, which is believing, which in turn is basically receiving what is, and what He is. What is, is because He does! Who He is, is what He does. I’m not being funny. That is how it is. We have something truly good and cannot appreciate it.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
We are that by Him through faith. It is His work, and His working. We are that by His life in us – if – we accept and walk in it. He is made unto us sanctification. Therefore we are sanctified by faith in this very thing, a fact of reality.
He is made unto you - this! It is heavenly. Unto – you. You are having because of this, His being made unto you. It isn’t something you do. You accept, believe. You have it, and are walking in it, unless you do not believe. Do we know the consequences of unbelief? Apparently not. The Shepard walks. You follow.
The belief unto sanctification does not eliminate any consequences of free will. As you accept by surrender, you experience…. If by your free will, you fail in this respect, you “FALL FROM GRACE.” Do I need to go into that? Your will is not on auto pilot ever in this lifetime. It is your choice every moment! Bing!! You can believe in His love toward you, or spurn it. You can try to earn it, even though you already have it, or you offer the sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.
(I’ll skip around)
Tell you what. We should not ask ourselves if we are saved. That is a big subject, with heavy scriptures pointing to a few possibilities, considering stones, wheat, tares, goats and sheep etc. I could write a book right there. We should ask ourselves if we are reconciled. To be reconciled is to be one with Him. To be one with Him is to live by Him. “I am the Resurrection.” “Apart from me you can do nothing.” (John 15:5)
quote:
________________________________________
referring to what Jesus has "done" for us through his death and resurrection
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It is what He ‘is doing’ as you trust, because of His very sacrifice, death and resurrection, by which He is now able to come to us in this way, which otherwise He could not.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection , and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
I am the resurrection. Everyone is looking to Heaven for after they die for resurrection. Jesus says here that HE IS the resurrection. That means something very personal to you. Believe me. You live His life, if He is within you. You live it! That will be the resurrected life. You live His life, if He is within you, the resurrected life, or you walk in the flesh in contempt of His life, which is within you.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many ; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The promises are to Christ. Christ is the one who benefits, therefore He must be in you for you to benefit by Him. “If you abide in me and I abide in you.” You must be in Him by death on the cross, through faith in His death on the cross on your behalf. Then you are alive in Him, and by Him, a new creature in union with God, the power of creation. The promises are not to you. They are to Him. They are to you, by His life within you, by impartation. Who will argue?Therefore you must be “hid with Christ in God.” You cannot be simply alongside Him, and over here, and Him there. There is an intersection wherein the two become one. From there – joy and salvation!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Nicely said Eden, however when He says easy, He means something profound by it.
Concerning the talent, very perceptive. the one who buried his talent is the one who accepts Jesus, then considers that He has that out of the way, and goes on with life (though he may even go to church). I have known people who stated it to me exactly this way. So if you consider the parable of the sewer,and of some falling on stony ground, where they didn't take root, this would be he. He withered and died. Only a stalk was left standing. Needless to say, he gets the boot on judgement day. Why? Because He didn't 'receive' all that God had for him!!! It has little to do with 'work'. God's return on you is what you receive from Him. Literally, what HE can do through you.
If this man's heart had taken root in God, he might have been a worthy investment, and good for him. Instead, his heart took root in the world. He got saved, but his heart took root in the world.
That guy who got five was the one who got the Holy Ghost! Because that is my experience (and again, not putting God in a box). It has to do with what you receive from Him, that He wants to do for you, not what you do for Him.
The guy who got ten? He went all the way to sanctification. Thas my take and i am pressing it together with the Apostles! Sanctification is what I speak of in my posts. My last post says a little about this.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Eden,
Long time no see! I was used to seeing you on here daily for a while. Its nice to see you back for fellowship.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Daniel: These long post are difficult. You have to be really dedicated to read them, especially since my continuity is not always cont. So I keep this un short.
quote:
Paul does use metaphors. There is no question on that. His objective being to make the truth become more alive to the hearers. If you say "Christ lives in me" and I say that "His spirit lives in me" it can virtually mean the same thing.
If you want to make a case for the Trinity, here is one, for what is it worth. The Holy Spirit did not die for you on the Cross. He is not the image of the Invisible God. He is not the begotten, the word by which we are made to live (yet he does make us to live, but not without Jesus). It is the word of God who gives us life, enabling the Spirit to fill us. Just a mention on the difference.
quote:
I am confused over your explanation on sin. Are you implying that there would not be a need for repentance in the life of one who is fully surrendered to Christ? That they dont sin?.......
This is a hard concept. Repent all the way! Then you don't need to repent, unless you sin:
"1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write
I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
So if we:
"1Jn 2:3 hereby do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."
We do not abide in sin by way of 'keeping'of the commandments, which doesn't involve 'doing' but 'having' based on accepting Him doing it for us,(whom the Son sets free is free indeed. He keeps the commandments by being in control for us, and we can avoid sin by not taking it away from Him. You will have to humble yourself to this fact in order to receive it) and:
"1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (there is a reason that he says this); but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
Is this epistle a picture of someone who is struggling with sin? Do you not get an impression that these authors, Peter and John are unapproachable and trying to tell you how to be also?
Falling into sin, and sins, like one here and one there, is a reality, but it is not to be our state of being. For most Christians it is a literal state of perpetual being, from where they will commit even more. They will never taste freedom from it so that they can relate to 1Jn5:18. They don't believe that they are delivered, not condemned to it (Romans). They are continually in sin, and commmiting sins. Their nose never rises above the flood.
They will bite your head off if you challenge them.
There is a place above sin from which you can fall. You have to be above it in order to fall. You cannot walk in the light as He is in the light for a nanosec if you are in sin. Sin is darkness and John would've had no reason to say walk in the light if you could not escape darkness. Anyone who says that Jesus does not deliver us, and is not able to keep us out of reach from sin if we are willing, makes God a liar. Nobody believes this though because they love the darkness and blindly accept defeat and the most gastly thing, justify it:
"Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
If you think you have to live in the dark and continually repent, you do not understand the blood of Jesus. And you are not alone. People read the word with blinders on the heart. What will you say to Jesus if you think you are not delivered from sin so that you can see His face?
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Michael Harrison, you are much to spiritual for me.
You have a theology that puts the Martyr’s to shame, so that leaves me completely out.
quote:
sitting in the armchair and enjoying the show ….
You never bothered to comment.
It’s a shame the martyr’s don’t understand your special understanding.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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I thought it would be a good idea after 3 pages of discussion to REPEAT the original TOPIC text that becauseHElives posted to start this Topic and see if we can refocus on some of the things said in that Topic text (not because Eden wrote that text originally but because becauseHElives said that Eden was asking a good question), let's see if it can be milked or meated for anything else. Here is the original text of the Topic again: quote:
brother {becauseHElives}, in your opinion, what does this narrow gate look like?
Is what Jesus did on the cross the narrow gate?
John 10:7
Then said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
When compared to the world and all of its philosophies, choosing Jesus and His death and resurrection instead of the rest, that IS a narrow gate.
May I ask you, becauseHElives, What does the gatekeeper of the narrow gate ask anyone who tries to enter the narrow gate?
And let's say that some AdamandEve person MAKES IT THROUGH THE NARROW GATE BY PERMISSION FROM ITS GUARD, at that poin the AdamandEve person is a CHRISTIAN right, even if they stay close to the narrow gate after that?
They are STILL in the kingdom of God aren't they, as long as they are on the INSIDE of the narrow gate? Help me out here...
with love, Eden
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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The "narrow road" and the "narrow gate" is all about—holiness in one’s life (Matthew 5:3-20).
13Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.
14But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.
15Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16You will fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits.
21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
How different are the words of Michael Harrison from the words of Yeshua.
Michael Harrison says obedience is works yet Yeshua says different…
21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].
24So everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts upon them [obeying them] will be like a sensible (prudent, practical, wise) man who built his house upon the rock.
The Lord has really laid something on my heart because of Michael Harrison’s teachings and I want to address it in this post.
The topic the “straight gate” as every topic in scripture is about salvation through the Blood.
What does it take to be saved?
Now salvation is really a very simple thing, or so most people think, but Yeshua made a statement that I want to look at:
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. [14] For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
What does He mean 'there are few who find it'? This statement sure makes it sound as if there is more to salvation (the narrow gate which leads to life) than we often think. I want to look at a couple other statements Yeshua made:
Luke 14:27-30 "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. [28] For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? [29] Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, [30] saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'"
As I have said before, many people teach that you can be saved and not be a disciple of Yeshua Messiah. I believe that is a lie from the father of lies. Being a disciple means to follow the teachings of a person. So, what they are saying is that you can be saved and not follow the teachings of Yeshua Messiah
In this passage Yeshua is telling people who are trying to decide whether to follow Him or not, that they need to weigh the personal cost and make sure they can follow through. As I have stated before, it really doesn't matter what I think, it matters what Yahweh says, so let's see what He says about this:
2 Thes. 1:6-10 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, [7] and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, [8] dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, [10] when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed-for our testimony to you was believed.
Look closely at verse 8; those who do not know Yahweh and those (who do know Yahweh, but) do not obey the gospel.
Then look at what he says will happen to them in verse 9; they will pay the penalty of eternal destruction. This is no minor issue of doctrine, this is a plain warning in Yahweh's word and we all need to sober up and take stock of our lives.
Those who do not obey the gospel will not enter the narrow gate. We should never make a doctrinal stand on one passage of Scripture. To do so can lead a person into error, so we need to see if other Scripture agrees with what we see here.
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned."
So what does it mean to have salvation? Does it mean to just believe that Yeshua is Yahweh's Son and that He came to die for your sins?
That is a great start but is it enough? No, according to these passages it is not enough. Salvation is simple and when a person truly comes to the knowledge that they are a sinner in need of a savior and that Yeshua is the only Savior available, they will also naturally understand that they must follow Him and abide in Him. This will include turning from their sins. How do I know this? Simple, the knowledge does not come from man but rather from Yahweh.
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
No one comes to Yahwe on their own power, they must be drawn by the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit draws someone, He does not just give them part of the information. A person, truly convicted by the Holy Spirit and drawn to Yeshua, will understand that they cannot continue in sin, but must leave the darkness to live in the light. I believe that the Holy Spirit draws all men to Yeshua, but only a few, as Yeshua told us, actually go through the narrow gate to eternal life.
2 Tim. 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, [4] and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
People want to hear that they can live any way they choose and still be saved, so they flock to preachers who will tell them that all they have to lose is their rewards. This doctrine speaks out of both sides of its mouth. On the one hand it says that all a person's sins are forgiven, past, present and future the moment they believe in Yeshua Messiah. It also says that Yeshua paid the full price for our salvation and we will not have to answer for our sins, but then it also says that our rewards can and will be taken away as punishment for those sins that Yeshua has already paid the full price for. Yet people see no contradiction because they don't want to really hear the truth..
1 John 5:3-5 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. [4] For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. [5] Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Again be careful how you interpret the statement- believes that Yeshua is the Son of Yahweh. It does not just mean an intellectual belief, but rather a belief that is put into action. I won't quote the whole book of James here but read it if you don't believe me.
We are sending people to hell by the simple, no strings attached gospel we are giving people.
2 Tim. 3:1-5 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. [2] For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, [3] unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, [4] treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, [5] holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
The last days are upon us. People are all the things which Paul listed above. You need to understand that Paul was speaking of people who claim to be believers. He was not speaking about the world at large. Look what he says in another of his letters:
1 Cor. 5:9-13 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; [10] I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. [11] But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. [12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? [13] But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
The gate is narrow and few find it. Not because Yahwe hides it from them, but because few are willing to pay the price to truly follow Yeshua. Now I am often told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and cannot walk away from Yeshua, but I don't believe that stands up to Scripture.
Ephes. 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
What happens when we grieve the Holy Spirit? I have often said that we must take the Bible as a whole to understand Yahwe and His word, so let's look:
Isaiah 63:8-10 For He said, "Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely." So He became their Savior. [9] In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old. [10] But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit; Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.
These were Yahweh's people, and He called them His Sons, yet what happened when they grieved His Spirit? He became their enemy. Can we find confirmation of this idea in the rest of Scripture? Yes…
James 4:4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
You can't become something if you were it to start with. These people, to whom James is speaking, can't be non-believers. They can't be non-believers, because we are all born into this world as enemies of Yahweh and must be reconciled to Him through Yeshua Messiah, so a non-believer can't "become" an enemy of Yahweh, only someone who has been reconciled to Yahweh can "become" an enemy of Yahweh, as the children of Israel did.
Galatians 6:7-9 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. [8] For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. [9] Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
We cannot live our lives for ourselves and still enter the narrow gate. If we live life to please our sinful nature (flesh) we will not enter that narrow gate, but if we live our lives to please the Spirit we will receive eternal life. Again Yahweh can't be mocked.
Salvation is a simple matter, when drawn by the Holy Spirit we need to come to faith in Yeshua and part of that faith is that we understand that we must follow Him and turn from our sins. Those who continue in the light as He is in the light will enter the narrow gate which leads to eternal life, but those who decide to follow the world and satisfy their sinful nature will be cast out into the darkness, away from Yahweh's presence.
No one can take us out of Yahweh's protective hand, we need not fear losing our salvation, but we should be sober and alert that we do not choose to leave that protection and reject the Savior who bought us.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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Happy Thanksgiving everyone, I pray everyone be blessed today.
The subject being the "narow gate" brings to mind a poem by the Messianic singer Johnathon Settle called "The eye of the needle"
Its very long so I wont post it all here but give a little background as I believe it speaks volumes about this gate.
In the poem, the speaker is telling of how in the night season he speaks with God and God asks him "son of man, whatis it that thou desires?"
And then the speaker goes onto to list each one in turn such as " God, I desire to be able to move the hearts of men with my playing of instruments and worship unto you"
Then God grants the man his hearts desire, but then after a time the man is not satisfied.
Then each time he speaks with God, again God asks him what his hearts desire is and again the man would say "That I may preach your word and win many souls, and then another time that he may be able to heal the sick, then again that he might cast out demons,
well, the list goes on and God each time grants the prayer of this man, but after a time the man is still not satisfied,
Then at last the man ask that he only wants that which God himself wants.
So God says, okay, then you must pass thru this gate called the "eye of the needle"
The man looks and sees that the passage thru it is very small and low. So he bows down to go thru but cannot, then the Lord says to him "Bow lower" but he still cannot enter,
Then God says "no, go even lower", and he still cannot enter.
Then the man says to God, I cannot go thru it with all my talants, my musical insruments, my talants, my books of learning ect...
Then God tells the man, "Drop them and enter"
Even though these were the gifts granted to hi by God it was a hard choice for the man but he drops all that God gave him and is able to go thru the gate.
When he is finally thru the gate, and on the other side he notices how wide it looks and there are all his gifts which God had provided him with that he laid down to get thru that gate.
Then the man looks thru this gate and sees his friends and loved ones trying to get thru this eye of the needle gate.
He hears each one in turn say things like-
"I cant go thru that gate, for I will have to lay my instruments of music down, and God gave me these intruments, I will not go."
Then he hears another ask "Lay down my weapons of warfare, my sword I use to protect the word of God?, No I will not do it"
and another, "Lay down my books of learning, those that help me prech the word of God just to go thru that slly little gate, I will not!"
Then the Lord tells the man that made it thru the gate, "These gifts they use are to move the hearts of Men"
Then in the narrative God goes on to tell the man how he made it thru the narrow gate, "the eye of the needle", was by laying down all those gifts given to him by God and doing that which God desired, namely ministering unto Him.
I know how hard this can be as for me personally being a minister of worship for many years in the assembly of God church, but God called me out and people there were just amazed at the fact that I would "Give up my Position" as so many put it.
But Yahweh God had another plan for me. It was His plan and doing, His work if you will.I guess what i am getting at is that we must yeild our will to His.
And by doing so, then His will is done in our lives. Dying to self is a very hard thing to do because of our nature, but wher we are weak He is strong, amen?
Okay, i have babbled enough. I think there are good points brought out by everyone here. Although I may not agree with all that has been said here, I am grateful for the fact that as believers we can come here and talk to one another.
Let us not forget that each of us must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. In the meantime, let us walk in love for one another, thanking Him always for what He has done for us.
Shalom
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi guys,
I read the last few posts and they bring to mind some beliefs that I have wrestled with and some other beliefs that I still do.
When we read the book of Acts it shows us how the true church of Christ began. Something that I wonder about is that in todays day and age there seems to be a disconnect where in those days there was more of a flow. Let me try and explain to you what I mean.
First of all, when the word was preached, and it was welcomed ,then baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins quickly followed....given with the promise of receiving the Holy Ghost in His Name ......
but these days baptism has no sense of urgency (its all based on convenience and more tightly associated with church membership), and seldomly do you hear them say "and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
Someone try and convince me there is not a problem here.
Also the next "disconnect" that I would like to adress is more geared towards what BecauseHelives was explaining in his last post. What is the name given most of the time by the believers that were added to the church.......yes, "disciples"......very interesting. They were only named "Christians" by others who looked at them as some peculiar religion.
Do we hear that in our churches today? Should we hear that in our churches today?
Happy thanksgiving guys, God is good all the time
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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Michael,
In your post on Nov 21st you sought to make a point with a reference to a single lens reflex camera and one's point of focus. Here is your reference and a question for us critics: quote:
If you remember the days of the SLR Cameras, you will be familiar with focusing a lens. If you focus beyond, or in front of what you are wanting to represent as the subject, the out of focus subject becomes blurred. The Christian faith is like that. If you focus short of the intended, you get an un-discernable picture in yourself. It has nice color, but what does it mean?
As a former professional photographer, I would note that you have failed to take into consideration the operation of a single lense reflex camera that creates a "depth of field" that gives a sharp focus to more than the "subject" in accord with the appropriate settings for the f-stop number on the lens and the focal length of the lens.
This means that the "Christian faith" cannot be clearly understood if one focuses only on what one has been given by God through his grace in Jesus Christ. The factor of "works", obedience, faithful stewardship and service must also be seen as being clearly within the picture of the Christian faith. This is what some of us have been trying to teach you.
It is well to try to emphasize the importance of the beliver's fuller surrender to Jesus, but no one of us can reach the level of surrender where we no longer have to "press on" to fulfill God's calling.
This point regarding the necessity for "works", for acts of obedience, for faithful stewardship and service as a part of one's walk of faith is too clearly presented by too many of Jesus' parables to be ignored or seen as being "out of focus".
I will briefly call your attention to these parables, which each focus on this matter:
1. What the master asked three of his servants to do with the "talents" that he entrusted to them, and why one was "worthless"; Mt 25:19-30.
2. A "shepherds" separation of "sheep" and "goats" in regard to what they did in respect to those in need; Mt 25:31-46.
3. Why one of ten servants who each received a "mina" had it taken away from him when he didn't invest it; Lk 19:11-27.
4. Why five virgins who had lamps and some oil were denied admittance into the "grooms" wedding feast when they weren't ready when he appeared; Mt 25:1-13.
5. Why a servant was judged to be "wicked" when he didn't obey the instructions of his master; Mt 24:44-51.
I think that the points of focus for these parables are very clear. They mean that you have not considered the full "depth of field" for your picture of the Christian faith. I would encourage you to reconsider your position.
Posted by freeinchrist (Member # 6867) on
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just a short note from me... i think this subject is one of great importants. of great interest to me personally. i read this topic / thread over and over again. keep this going until it runs its course,whenever that is. thank-you...james
Posted by freeinchrist (Member # 6867) on
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part 2...i should say the " having " VS " doing " thread...nothing against the narrow gate thread... love reading that too... so maybe have a thread with just the having and doing ...
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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I love everyone here, no matter if they are agitated towards me, but i love you really well free! God bless you.
quote:
Let us not forget that each of us must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. In the meantime, let us walk in love for one another, thanking Him always for what He has done for us.
Nicely said, of course!
TB! Nice Try. Even if the F Stop at 16, there is only focus from a given point in front of you to infinity. So something remains out of focus regardless, even if more is in. Nevertheless, the point is, that there is a focal point wherein something wonderful happens to the image in the case of a narrow depth of field especially! Most don't know how or where to focus to accomplish a crisp picture of the subject, which is not distracted by a similarly crisp, and therefore menacingly distracting background. Shall i talk about composing?
Anyway, I am excited about this. Thank you so much for the way you worded the active, selective discourse.
quote:
which is given to him/her and not earned by any of his/her works of obedience, that it eventually drops him/her off into heaven without him/her having anything to do during the process of his/her santification. Such a doctrine would eliminate any personal consequences for free will and make salvation completely the active work and selection of God for every individual. That would be a position of extreme Calvinism.
The more I look at it, the more I can’t get away from it, your saying about it being the active and selective work of God. Yes. It is the active and selective work of God by His life, and your getting out of the way. Otherwise He is far, far removed from you, making it impersonal.
It is the selective work of God by the yielding of your will to His, believing that He will select, even by such means as His peace legislating your steps for you. By this means He can work His will. This in turn means that it is active, and selective, according to: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven,” Thy life is worthy. Amen. Worthy is the Lamb who was slain. For He is actively selecting your path by leading:
“Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path,” for Jesus is the word of God, your lamp. Therefore the Living Word is actively selecting.
Let us not leave out of that mix, we still have choices not only between good and evil, but sometimes between good, and good. He is greater than our choices whatever we choose. What good is relationship otherwise?
If you look at the Bible, all the examples are of relationships, God and man. Those people had a relationship. There was an active and selective work in their personal lives by way of relationship, in the way that they moved, and in how and what they obeyed. They didn’t do all of this out of a vacuum supposing to ‘do’ something for Him, but by His active/selective.
That leads me to one who said in this very thread, that this Jesus coming into your heart talk is overrated.
If Jesus doesn’t come into your heart and save you, and change you, deliver you and so on, then you are saved by self election. You have merely raised your hand as if to be counted and for having said, “Count me in Lord. I see this story and believe that it is true. I want you to recognize me because I know a good thing when I see it. ”
That isn’t how it works. The heart must believe unto Jesus, not the story about Him. You might as well be a Mormon otherwise. They believe in self election. They think that there will eventually be enough of them who identify with what they believe, that the Kingdom will come by virtue of their believing numbers (or is that Jehova’s Witnesses?) Jesus doesn’t come into their heart. They are self elected by the fact that they think that they are going to multiply like rabbits until the world is overcome. They think that God identifies with them. They have faith in a story, not a living being.
Without the active and selective, which occurs whenever you know what it is to untie His hands, by dying so that He can live, you don’t have a relationsip. What you have is imaginary, and wishful thinking. A lust to contribute. A bonus points program. Doing for credit. Dead works. It will be burned up. It doesn’t exist. It is meaningless. I mean good, not harm.
I’m liking it more and more every time I read this. It doesn’t eliminate free will. It means that you are willing for His will to be exercised. This is how it is supposed to work.
The Kingdom of Heaven is not future tense. Make no mistake about it: The Kingdom of Heaven cometh not with observation. It is within you. So, if it is in you, then you are in it by subjective will. Yours to His. Therefore, to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you must become as a child to benefit. You must have childlike trust in the reality of Him, and active, selective reality of Him.
The point is, without the works of obedience, to believe, you cannot enter in, and you are in the outer court, if you are in the court at all.
You know, it has nothing to do with Calvinism. It has to do with seeking, finding and believing, receiving. You must go directly to the King, not to something even, about Him. Believe me, if you are going to let Him have control of your life, you’ll have to believe that He Himself is directly involved in it, not sitting up in Heaven waiting for the results to come in. It’s a living relationship. If you don’t have that I feel sorry for whoever.
Here is something that will help get you on your way. If you are one of these people who got saved and you stopped there; if you have a problem with the baptism of love, that is the baptismal event of the promised comforter, which is Pentecost, then I don’t know if you can be helped a great deal. The reason that He is the comforter, is that HE comforts you with the Knowledge of Him, and awareness of His presence, that He is real, not just some hope testified to by some words that you will realize in the future. Hence the name comforter, which is practically a feeling, only better. This is a reward for inviting Him in. It is a reward for faith believing. That is what He asked everyone that He healed, “do you believe.” Upon believing, then they received. They chose to believe because they knew He would. They were not going to pass it up.
I don’t know about Calvin. Maybe he settled for less, if I am considered extreme. I feel badly for him now.
It isn’t whether you have your doctrine right, but rather if you have your relationship right.
Peace Joy Love in the Holy Ghost.
Mel Tari wrote a book, "America, Jesus is here!" Jesus is here, and i love Him. Did i say?
Posted by lonlesol (Member # 4511) on
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quote:
to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you must become as a child to benefit. You must have childlike trust in the reality of Him, and active, selective reality of Him.
Everyone may have to become themselves as a child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven but when a child has been manipulated by an unbelieving parent by saying and insisting that believing in God is nonsense and stupid to the point that the child no longer believes in Him, then the trust in the reality of Him has completely been destroyed by that missleading parent...
Has anyone ever faced that dilemna with their own children???...I have and it sure isn't easy to see the result of this!...I am desperately seeking for solutions...does anyone hear me out there!?!?!?...
This thread will probably die...it seems to happen every time I post in one!...
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, becauseHElives, you said: quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. [14] For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Jesus Himself said he entered by this door {i.e., by the gate} of the sheepfold:
John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say to you, He who enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he who enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.
Now, it says that the shepherd enters in and the shepherd leads the sheep OUT, not IN.
You said in your post above that the narrow gate is holiness, or holy behavior. That would imply that Jesus is NOT the narrow gate.
On the other hand, in life there are many gods that we can choose from to be our god, and so why could it not be said that finding Jesus as the right and correct God among all the gods is finding the narrow gate that leads to eternal life and "few there be that find it"? It doesn't say "few there be who DO it", but "few there be who find it"?
And Jesus said, quote:
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
That seems to say that Jesus is the door or the narrow gate, does it not?
We do NOT enter by Buddha and we do NOT enter by Mohammed and we do NOT enter by (fill in the blank), but we can ONLY enter by Jesus who is therefore the door or the narrow gate and few there be that find it.
And indeed, this is what happens to the ones who DO NOT find it:
Matthew 7:13
Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
Why do many go in thereat? Because of their holiness or set-apartness? No. Because they were not able to find the narrow gate which is Jesus, for "few there be that find it".
The narrow gate has to do with FINDING JESUS, not with what you said, becauseHELives, namely, that the narrow gate is about holiness, or about holy behavior.
Holy behavior is something that believers acquire AFTER THEY ARE SAFELY INSIDE the narrow gate where, with the help of the Holy Spirit and with the help of the Word of God and with the help of fellow believers, we learn more about Godly behavior.
But Jesus seems to be the narrow gate that people have a hard time finding among all the choices of gods. "I am the door of the sheep".
Proverbs 8:35
For whoso finds Me finds life, and shall obtain favor of the LORD.
with love, Eden
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Eden, the scriptures says "be you Holy as I am Holy"...
Eden Yeshua is the Straight Gate, He is also the Narrow Path, many seek but few truly find His life...
People find religion, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Church of Christ, Church of God, Assembly of God and other Christian organization but they don’t find Yeshua.
The so called Church that must see today in America is full of dead men and women going through the motions of religious life!
People don’t take His yoke upon them and learn of Yeshua, they learn about what some organization teaches about Yeshua.
Yeshua is the embodiment of holiness
How would you describe or define what "be you Holy as I am Holy"... looks like in a believer's life?
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Lonlesol,
I hear your desperation for answers from God. I firmly believe that God hears your cry. I would like to offer you the best advice that I believe that I can. First of all, please do not lose trust in God's faithfullness. I have also gone through some very scary times of doubt in my faith.....but the times where God really helped me with the fears and doubts were when I took all of my emotions and feeling directly to him in prayer. Lonlesol there is nothing wrong with telling God that you want to believe in Him, but that you just need his help......this is not tempting God, this is asking Him how to deal with the fears and doubts that seem to overwhelm you. Let me tell you what happened when my journey began with Christ in early 1995.
I was in my kitchen doing dishes pondering the things of God. It was then it seemed that my mind was trying to overule my heart by saying "what if there is no Jesus?...what if its all a lie?" My heart started to race as it caused me fear to think that way. I quickly ran into my pantry crouched down and said "Help me, Lord, please help me!" That very moment my mind pictured me sinking in the water(like Peter) and Jesus reaching out His hand to me to lift me up....it was then that peace was restored to my heart, and my fears and doubts subsided. I saw a picture of Jesus in the "mind" of my heart and I pictured Him looking upon me with compassion the same way that He must of looked at Peter when Peter cried out "Lord, save me".
Lonlesol, what am I trying to tell you here. I want you to refine your focus. When you are at your end, go somewhere in secret where you and God can be alone, and call out to Jesus, our loving and compassionate Lord and Savior.....and God will honor and hear your prayer because you go to His Son for the help.
Yes, Lonlesol I have personally experienced the same thing in my life. My Son Brandon's mother is a non-believer. In my personal opinion the influence that I have been able to have on my son, despite the opposition goes right back to having this personal time with God alone where I bring my needs before Him. God desires to give us discernment, which helps us combat the enemy of fear and doubt. This comes by His spirit that helps and guides us....but once again this help is given when our faith is directed to the proper source....Jesus Christ. You may get all kinds of answers on how others have dealt with thier children in the past, but God knows what specific areas of life that need to be adressed in your children in order to point them to Christ. With your desire to see your children saved , and Gods desire to have your children in His Kingdom you are on your way to receiving from God the necessary weapons of warefare to bring down the enemies tactics. Through prayer to Jesus, I believe that God will give you the strength to express the love that witnesses of God's presence in your life.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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That was beautiful and kind Daniel.
And thank you each that you have indicated need or desire, or condition for prayer. In any case, i pray. I am touching Him, and my prayer for you is that you will feel His touch that you may be encouraged, and Daniel, that his mother may believe. Jesus! Love. His tears! Amen.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for the kind words. What has really kept me going in the faith is really being convinced of Gods awesome love, which is found in Jesus.....and the encouragement that has come from brothers and sisters in the Lord who really seem to care.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
:
Hi again lonlesol,
There is one more thing that I would like to add that I do believe to be an important thing in your circumstances. Despite the fact that the other parent may have this negative influence on your children, resist the temptation to bad-talk that parent. That will get you no where fast and it certainly is not Gods will. We are more profiteable to elevate Christ, than to make assaults on the adversary. Let me give you a little example of what I mean by that. If you are witnessing to a Muslim, you are better off showing them that if Jesus was lying about who He said He was then why would God have annointed Him from on High?...than to say....well, you know that Muhammed is only a man and he led an ungodly life.
There was a time that I was having great difficulty with my son and I knew that in many ways his mother was speaking through him right to me with her bitterness and dis-respect. It came to a quick halt when I realized that there was a way that I could bring to naught some of the tension, but it took me to have the nerve to speak well of his mom. This is what I told my son......."Brandon, I want you to realize something....you would not be here right now on this earth if your mother(my Ex) and I had not decided to go together. Now you are here and you are being given one of the greatest opportunities of all-time (then I pointed to the picture of the last supper on our wall) ...that is to be able to one day to be in Heaven with that man in the middle of the table. So trust me that I am looking out for your best interest, and respect me for having the responsiblity that I have to God, and that is to take good care of you." END
I am only trying to express a concept here lonlesol...not tell you what you should tell your children....it is to use your speech carefully by not bad-talking (Im not assuming that you are, but it is an easy temptation) and to seek for ways to bring a together feeling despite the divisions.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, becauseHElives, you said to Eden: quote:
How would you describe or define what "be you Holy as I am Holy"... looks like in a believer's life?
First I would say that it is impossible to be or become holy as He is holy until I FIRST GET SAVED.
Once I am saved, I qualify for access to the counsel of the Holy Spirit, and if I read the Word of God, then I can work on “be holy even as I am holy”. So in any case, salvation comes first. Sometimes I get the impression that you, becauseHElives, want people to become or be “holy before they are saved because He is holy”, and that is impossible.
But beyond that, I would venture to say that such a life as you propose has never been lived by anyone on earth except by Jesus the Son of God.
The Apostle Paul therefore says in Galatians 2:20, “It is no longer I, but Christ”. God makes it quite clear in His Word that in all His dealings with us He works by taking us out of the way and substituting Christ in our place.
The Son of God died instead of us for our forgiveness and the Son of God lives instead of us for our daily deliverance. So we can actually speak of two substitutions—one Substitute on the Cross who secured our forgiveness and one Substitute within us who through the Holy Spirit secures our victory.
The first four-and-a-half chapters from Romans 1:1 to 5:11 repeatedly uses the plural word sins while the second three-and-a-half chapters from 5:12 to 8:39 repeatedly uses the singular word sin, which refers to the sin principle within Adam and Eve.
Jesus died for my sins on the cross, and that is the first Substitution. Then Jesus also rose again so that He could be my second Substitution, namely to come live in my spirit so that the Spirit can lust against my flesh while my flesh lusts against my spirit and the Spirit.
But to think for one second that this sin-accustomed AdamandEve body is capable of living the holy set-apart life that the Son of God lived on earth, that cannot happen until the redemption of our bodies, namely when we receive our glorified bodies. Only then shall we be like Jesus was and is.
Jesus died for our sins, and Jesus works through the Spirit to make us more holy because He is holy. To be holy means to be set apart, in this case to be set apart unto God. With the help of the Word of God and with the help of the cleansing of the conscience and with the help of Jesus counseling us through the Holy Spirit we may set ourselves apart unto God to the extent that each believer can and wants to, but we will never attain and cannot attain in these sinful AdamandEve bodies what Jesus attained and was because Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit and not of the Adamic spirit. No man can attain that the holiness or set apartness that Jesus was able to attain.
Salvation must come first, and then we can learn what it means to be set more apart unto God, according to each believer’s several ability, which is also called sanctification or the process of being set apart, and also has to do with rewards as an incentive or wage to be more set apart. But we can never be like Jesus was until we receive our glorified bodies.
So becauseHElives, to repeat what you said to Eden: quote:
{Eden} how would you describe or define what "be you Holy as I am Holy"... looks like in a believer's life?
I think "be you Holy as I am Holy" will look like a mix of spirit and flesh in a believer's life, while in the unbeliever's life "be you holy like I am Holy" looks only like flesh because in the unbeliever flesh has not been mixed with spirit like in the believer.
Only Jesus was ALL spirit and no flesh thus far. Believers are now a mix of spirit and flesh until the believers receive their glorified bodies, at which time the believers will also have a body that is capable of being 100% Spirit and no flesh. But not yet now; only at redemption of the body which redemption is yet to come.
with love, Eden
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi guys,
I wonder if there is confusion and disagreement over certain issues in scripture by virtue of the fact that some view salvation more as a process while others view it more as a single event.
By Jesus words "He that endures to the end shall be saved", I am more convinced that salvation is a process... a process whereby repentance isn't only one time, but needs to be lifelong, and our confession is not a one-time confession, but a lifelong confession..... and a process of remaining stedfast in the faith despite all opposition.
If Jesus said "he that is saved shall endure to the end, then I would be more prone to believe that salvation is more of a single event than a process.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Very good point Daniel, the false teachers of a false gospel and another Jesus view salvation as and instant one time act on the believers part but there are too many scriptures that demand a different conclusion, nature itself demand a different conclusion!
The one you sited “those that endure to the end shall be saved” can be taken no other way in context of scripture.
Another is the one we are discussing…”the straight gate and the narrow way”
The Apostle Paul talked about “until Christ be formed in you”…this is like the seed of man (seed of Yahweh and the egg of a woman (the heart of a man or woman) coming together. There is nothing instant in the creation of life; it is develop over a period of time.
“Doth not even nature itself teach you” think about Paul’s word, there is more there than the subject being discussed. If you have Spiritual ears to hear.
There is no child formed outside of the womb in nature as Yahweh has created it.
Instant life does not exist in the animal world, the insect world, the amphibian world, the fowl world or human world.
People are worried about the abortion issue of this world but completely ignorant of the abortions that take place everyday in Church because the Church isn’t travailing, still birth are taking place, miscarriages are taking place all because of false teachers and preacher in the Pulpits of the Church.
____________________________________________________________-__
Eden, Does being lost cause Yahweh to expect any less of you than He expects of a person washed in the Blood?
The fall in no way diminished Yahweh’s claim on mankind or His right to expect obedience of mankind.
The phrase “be ye Holy as I am Holy”…means simply be ye separate, other than this world as I am separate, other than this world”.
Without this Holiness (separation, otherness than the world no person shall see Yahweh. … Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=holiness&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no
Read the scriptures on the link given above and every where you read holiness substitute separation, otherness to this world.
Has not Yahweh’s Grace made us more than conquers?
Did not Yeshua’s death, burial and resurrection set free the New Creation from the bonds of sin?
Eden why do you believe this statement?
quote:
Eden,
but we will never attain and cannot attain in these sinful AdamandEve bodies what Jesus attained and was because Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit and not of the Adamic spirit. No man can attain that the holiness or set apartness that Jesus was able to attain.
Did not Yeshua say … John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Amplified Bible
I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if anyone steadfastly believes in Me, he will himself be able to do the things that I do; and he will do even greater things than these, because I go to the Father.
Eden will you expect out of yourself what Yeshua expects or will you agree with the false teachers of the apostate church.
Eden are you so limiting the Holy One Of Israel as not to expect out of yourself what Yahweh expect of you?
Psalm 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Posted by oneinchrist (Member # 6532) on
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Hi guys,
the other thing that comes to mind that really seems to have a spill over effect on the way that individuals view salvation is the doctrine of "depravity".....which I believe has "extremism" when swallowed whole. I wholeheartedly agree that a man cannot save himself apart from Christ....but I certainly do not believe that man is so helpless and or sinful that he is unable to be cognizant of Gods word and have the ability to respond.
Adam and Eve were fully aware of Gods command to them, and in fact, it was their feeling of shame that bore witness to that awareness. No one had to tell Adam and Eve that they did wrong.
I have seen where this extreme view has also also forced its proponents to have to try and prove that God must have caused sin....showing the leak in the intregrity of such a belief.
This doctrine of depravity is at enmity with the thought of responsibility and accountability in the faith. This doctrine also lends to the devils deception that a man could live virtually any sort of life that he desires, as long as he is covered in the blood of Jesus.......here is where I believe that the danger really comes in. I am not surprised that the message of repentance is not as strong when a doctrine such as this permeates the churches. Any sort of doctrine that would result in more passive attitudes towards sin, and less emphasis on pursuing Holy living, is false doctrine. The individuals that were added to the church in the book of Acts were not called disciples for no reason.
I will take a stab at the element that will cause many to come short of "saving faith". It is " putting on the will to do His will". How could anyone possibly be dooped into thinking that they could have salvation by a one-time experience, but the rest of their lives they never commit to doing the will of God?
Please do not come to me and say, its not within man's ability to will to do Gods will, because then I will tell you that you surely then do not believe in the ability of Gods love in Christ to be the driving force.
When we will to do Gods will, we will be aided by Gods spirit to accomplish the things that would not be possible without him......but along the way while we wait on the Lords work to come to fruition we are to commit to obeying the revealed will of God in the scriptures. I personally know people who are professing christians that are presently living in adultery. No one can convince me that they cannot turn back to God and come out of their sin unless they receive some extra dose of faith from God. The truth is that they like thier sin and they refuse to repent. Please do not assume that I feel that I am just a Holier than thou. I just wanted to use the above example to show that there could be a big danger in not understanding that there is responsiblity and accountability in the faith. There would not be warnings in scripture if it were not so.
If I choose not to forgive someone, I cannot reason within myself that I am covered in the blood of Jesus, but I am to forgive if I expect to be forgiven. Jesus stated it. That makes it so.
Putting on the will to do God's will is what will open up the channel for the Holy spirit to begin its active work in our lives. This will lead to the prompting for the necessary obedience to accomplish His will. Try and convince me that this was not the mind-set of the disciples before Pentecost.
Another reason why I believe that this is so important is so that we do not copy others to feel in the groove, but that we are uniquely molded into what God desires and that our obedience follows suit.
So when Jesus states that it is only the ones who do the will of God that will enter Heaven, I believe that our response needs to be "putting on the will to do His will". Notice I didnt say "put on the desire to do his will"....for I believe that stronger desire comes through time, but the will to do His will is a conscious decision that we can make in a moment in time.
With love in Christ, Daniel
I have to make dinner now. Talk later.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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becauseHElives asked "Eden, why do you believe this statement?"
We will never attain and cannot attain in these sinful AdamandEve bodies what Jesus attained because Jesus was born in a 100% Holy Spirit body and not in a body that has come through the sinful Adamic line. No Adamic man can attain to the holiness or set apartness that Jesus was able to attain.
In the parable of the old wineskin and the new wineskin, Jesus makes it clear that our sin-accustomed Adamic bodies would burst like an old wineskin if new wine was put into it, and to me that means that if God were to put 100% Holy Spirit in us, our Adamic bodies would burst and we would die.
That's why we have to wait for our new, glorified bodies, which will be bodies just like Jesus had and that glorified, Holy Spirit body WILL be able to contain 100% Spirit.
God does say to us, Look, be holy or set apart from the world like I am set apart, because God is not going to lower His Perfect Standard of holiness to accommodate us. But God also knows that it takes a body like Jesus had before we humans can attain to His Perfect Standard.
Isaiah 65:24
And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
But right now we are still waiting for our glorified bodies:
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
God does want us to make an effort to be "in the world but not be of this world"; but that is a process and effect of sanctification, not of salvation. Salvation is attained this way:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.
I do think however, as oneinchrist said, that we have to actively and consciously have our faith in the blood of Jesus unto death or the rapture, whichever comes first.
There seems to be a Bible indication that God will determine whether we in fact had a "living" faith by whether we end up doing some work because faith without works is dead or is as "no faith".
So what works are these? Are these works of behavior that we were able to change after we first believed in the substitutionary blood of Jesus?
Or are these works the work we do on behalf of the kingdom of God after we are saved?
I tend to think from scripture that the works are what we do to help preach and teach the coming kingdom of God.
And to be sure, if we have a living, continuous faith in the blood of Jesus, we will most likely also end up reading the Word of God where we can learn how to behave in the Family of God. But when it comes to behavior, God knows that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
Thus far only the Son of God was 100% holy and we will be too once we receive our glorified body. But Adamic bodies cannot contain 100% Holy Spirit at this time.
In this current dispensation, inside believers a struggle occurs between the Spirit and the flesh:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would like to do.
with love, Eden
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Eden Yeshua was 100% God but He was 100% man, Yeshua had all the capabilities of failure in Him that we have in us. That is why He can be our Savior. He was tempted in all points as all mankind are tempted, if Yeshua could not have failed when tempted, the temptation has no meaning to any human.
Eden you can never get the right interpretation of scripture if you don’t take the scripture in context.
You quoted….to support your idea that the Born Again, New Creation, Holy Ghost filled believer can not expect to be just like Jesus/Yeshua….can not expect to live a completely victorious life in Christ.
quote:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would like to do.
But the next verse Galatians 5:18 says….
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
read that and let it sink in....
they that are Christ have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust!!!!!
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul deals with this same issue in …..
Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
As I think of them, I will have to re-clear-up some things up that I have said. Whatever I say is usually heard the way the hearer wants to hear it. Oh dismay. The same is reflected in the responses. How sad that we read God’s word the very, very same way; not as before Him, but as before men do we read. If men were all we had to impress, some of us would surely thrill someone, but read it before Him and see how you fare.
I never said, once again for the record (this must be said), hat there are no works, though I am accused of saying that very explicit thing, among other things. What I said, for clarity is, once more is:
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
The following typifies my pleadings throughout this thread:
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
Gal 4:18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
Gal 4:19 [However] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ [finally] be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Paul was seeking for Christ to be formed in them by faith; for that is the only way that it happens, and not in process either, but by sanctification. If you look at the context of these passages alone, within Galatians, you will see that those people troubled him deeply by not realizing their deepest relationship, verse 20, which they were called to, and which Paul tirelessly, perhaps futilely expounded upon. In fact, they were drawn to listening to others, verse 4:17, and shutting out Paul. “Yea, they zealously affect you,” said Paul, but wrongly he would say.
Indeed. They got pumped up by the rousing, animated and motivational preachers, that were spectacular orators. They were not getting the truth of the Spirit the way Jesus wanted them to though. Paul was the chosen vessel. But in social club setting, they patted each other on the back, shaking their heads, pleased with themselves, saying,
“Hey! Yea, we’re getting this aren’t we? Let’s tell someone else. Is it not good to be here! Hey look. There’s Paul. I wonder what he wants?”
Paul was looking at his feet, pleading in his spirit with the Lord, sort of under his breath. “They don’t have a clue Lord. And they won’t listen. I mean, they know better the moment that I speak, than what I am saying, even though it is your truth. They won’t open up to you that you may be formed in them. They are too enamored with the side-trackers, fast-talkers (who are nevertheless yours, but errant in fact regarding the faith). They are so proud of themselves, not understanding that I am telling them the straight truth, of the easiest, and the best, and the most terrific, the blessed! How, oh Lord, do you get their attention to this?” Then he refers back to the false message that they were so giddy over, the one about ‘doing’, which is what the law represents wholly, (notice distinctly that I did not say Holy, which the law, the ‘doing’ thereof , (which represents attaining by trying) could not make them - Holy).
Is Holiness being set apart? O.K. but how? By what? Moldy bread is set apart. I do not think that it is in a good way. So, as moldy bread, you cannot just say that you are set apart and be satisfied. He does not want moldy bread. So, it comes back to, how are you set apart, by what mechanism? Something has to affect you to become different, in a good way, pleasing to Him, then you are set apart ; and it is not something you do, but something you believe in (that He has done, and is doing, that delivers you to Him) that thereby, i.e. believing in, you may have. You see, He is trying to save you from trying to do it by trying! Tell me you can, I’ll tell you you can’t. Tell me you can’t, and therefore must abide in sin, making excuses, I’ll tell you you are wrong.
What is Holy?
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
You cannot say in the same breath that you can abide in sin, accept defeat, and your not being set apart, as He is, and say " to be pure as He is pure," at the same time.
When He shall appear, we shall realize ourselves to be like Him, by comparison, upon seeing Him as He is, because while here, we, through faith, have purified ourselves even as He is pure. He has provided that we would not be ashamed when He appears, like, caught off guard to be seen by Him. Isn’t that what that says? If we are ‘becoming’, then we are short of that goal. How will we look to Him if we are ‘becoming’, and He appears? Is there such a thing as almost there, almost pure? You are, or you are not. What do we say in that day, “Lord, hey! I was becoming – take me, take me? I’m over here. I’m becoming. I’m the one,” while you jump up and down, waving a handkerchief for attention.
He was (but is) manifested to take away our sins (verse 5), so whosoever abideth in Him, sinneth not, because(verse 6), He takes away our sins, as we abideth, by nature of abiding. If we abideth not in Him, it is through unbelief, and we abide in sin, particularly the notion of becoming, which says that He didn’t finish the job, and we have to miserably help, even though we can't.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And He says that we don’t have to transgress the law! Yet it is not through any ability of our own. As we abide in Him, if we know what it means to abide in Him, He delivers us, and we walk as He walked, fellowshipping one with another (Jesus and thee). This is not metaphor, simile, or whatever. If you pass it off as that, ye do sin, and it will be with you. If you teach another, well…..
So you see, the straight gate is Jesus. With the emphasis on the word gate, when we are born again, that is when we enter the gate – Jesus. The narrow way that follows, if we can find it, is to abide in Him; that is, to know what it means to abide in Him. It is so narrow, it restricts you from doing, down to having, as He provides for you to walk in it: His provision.
If you are a family, and you are in the park; well, let’s say that there is an argument, and you tell your daughter to go sit in the car, but she goes and leans up against the car, with an attitude, no less. Is she abiding in the car? She is abiding without! Needless to say, if all are ready to leave, and she is abiding without, she isn’t going to get anywhere. Christianity is like that. Christ is like that! Walking on her own will not get her as far as she needs to go. Abiding in the car will, and she doesn’t even have to drive.
IF you are abiding without, and debating it, it is like you are not getting your lamps full. We know what that means.
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
:
Michael,
I've read most of your posts on this subject, but I have several questions that may help me to understand your theology.
1. Who is the source for your theological perspective on salvation? What are the references for your principles?
2. What is the primary role of a person's will after he/she has been given and received God's grace by faith?
3. After one has received God's grace, can it ever be removed from from him/her? If so, what would cause God to do this?
4. How can anyone know for sure or demonstrate clearly that he/she has been saved, particularly when he/she continues to do some things that have been identified as "sins"?
I'll be interested in your specific answers to these questions. Depending on your answers, I may have others.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Ok! I'll be back, but first:
quote:
Who is the source for your theological perspective on salvation? What are the references for your principles?
That is a curious question! I'll save it for last. I will say this though, there is only one source. There are many disputes, all of which involve doing what He doesn't ask one to do. If you want to drive to the mountain, to the pinnacle to see the view, you don't stop at the overlook that is halfway there and say, i was at the pinnacle. At least one being will know that it is not so, if all the others you tell are fooled.
We will take note of this, that He said we would be Kings and Priests in the new dispensation. That would make the everyday believer to experience the experience of Moses. Because He Lives. Because He is love.
Everybody who messes up, does so because they do not go to the source. They settle for intermediates, like their church, the pastors, books. Even scripture isn't clear to them because they "lean to their own understanding," and/or those others, rather than Christ. Don't take my word for it. I am not the source, but i know what you will find out if you make it to the source.
and it is soul shaking, and frightening to consider what people settle for, short of the source. He has a name - Jesus! BECAUSE HE LIVES! Amen.
There is one person who is salvation. Don't relegate Him to light-years away in distance by not recognizing His everpresent power to save and deliver. He does not expect you to deliver yourself.
Should you have a problem with this, lemme ask, did Paul go to the Source? Think perhaps maybe that is why he spoke as he did? Though it is somewhat unintelligable, Paul said:
"1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
What he meant was, not to be followers of Paul, per sey, but to do as he did, to do similiarly, that one should have the same results, and all, would be in the same camp, in the Ark, properly.
Indeed, one can not expect of God unless they:
"Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
That's very personal to everyone.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Hi, becauseHElives. You said: quote:
Eden, Yeshua was 100% God but He was 100% man, Yeshua had all the capabilities of failure in Him that we have in us.
You say that Yeshua was 100% God but He was 100% man.
There IS one huge difference between the man Jesus and us Adamic men. We have a sinful Adamic body, but Jesus got a body just like Adam had BEFORE Adam sinned.
But Jesus isn’t called the billionth man, Jesus is called the second man in the Bible because Jesus is the second Adam:
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Yes, Jesus was 100% man, but in the tradition of the first Adam before the first Adam sinned. It is therefore an error to assume that Jesus is a man like us. We are already sinful and have a sinful Adamic body. Jesus had a perfect, sinless body like the first Adam had before the first Adam sinned:
John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Do you see the difference, becauseHElives?
With love in Him, Eden
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Another thing, becauseHElives, I think you are way undervaluing the body of Jesus.
1 Peter 1:19
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1 Peter 2:4
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe
he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner.
Precious in the Bible means extremely valuable, and it takes a right valuing of the Lord Jesus to be able to appreciate how one man could be the Substitute of all men who ever lived.
His body was made by the overshadowing Holy Spirit implanting a pure, Godly Holy Spirit seed in Mary's womb, a holy seed that DID NOT come up through the Adam and Eve line:
John 3:31
He who comes from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he who comes from heaven is above all.
John 8:23
And he {Jesus} said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.
becauseHElives, this proves that Jesus was not like us sinful Adamic men, men of the earth because Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit:
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.
So Jesus was a 100% man, yes, but He was not like us; Jesus was like the first Adam, before the first Adam sinned. That's why the Bible calls Jesus the second man, and NOT the billionth man.
with love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Here is a certifiable fact. You don’t understand the understanding unless you first pay the price. People want to look into the perfect law of liberty to have the benefits of God; however, they do not want to pay the price, first. This, my friend is not how it works with God. With Him, you pay the price all the way, first, then you see the blessing. You can struggle to understand for a whole lifetime, yet, if you did not obey the word, you will not have seen it, and likely you will shake your finger at someone trying to get them to obey the word, when you have not yet understood it (maturely).
It is hard to obey the word when you don’t receive it the way it is written. Everybody, everybody rationalizes it to fit their understanding. They reduce it to metaphorical, allegorical, or hypothetical. (Not picking on ya oneinc.) This defeats, grieves the Spirit.
Jesus rode into town on a foal. Jesus, God Himself, washed the very feet of His own creation. Now that is pretty powerful to consider. When someone says something, and you are too ‘above’ it to consider it, you could be missing life itself.
If you take what you know and elevate yourself by it, what is wrong with that? That is a whole sermon.
Alright!
Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
The idea in this verse is that you should fall upon that stone to be broken. For to be broken is to release the sweet aroma of the Alabaster Box. It is not what you accomplish in your knowing. It is how you are known by Him.
(I guess I am a little tired. You want so much to share the blessing.)
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty , and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
People love to pull this up and shove it out, or shake the paper to hear it crinkle, for emphasis, in a discussion on works. But the meaning of these passage depend upon the understanding of doing; doing what? Find out. Mind you, Martin Luther is said to have called this book a scrawny epistle.
But there is a spiritual understanding, that illustrates to one the meaning of doing as He would require it. In such case, in understanding, you will know that you are not a doer, but a doee, which is the proper order in the Kingdom of God. So when you read a passage like this in James:
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
You understand that it is by Him that you know, and are led. Therefore you are aware that your action will be blessed because He is in it. My son, it didn’t come out of the air, as it were. You were however, “following after,” which is your service unto Him. It is the belief that receives, because it knows as it goes. (We’ll talk about how that comes about.)
If you let Him live, as you let Him live, as the sap flows in the vine, things will happen. But as Jesus followed after the Father, you follow after Jesus. What can I say about it? You don’t pump it up. He brings it. You don’t make it up, you hear it. Isn’t that having? Isn’t that humility?
None seem to make the distinction. They are so happy to serve God, they are going to make it up as they go, and tell Him what they did later.
“Well,” He will say, “But did I do it?”
You will say, “Well, you said such and such, and I set about it.”
He will say, “If, as a son of God you were led, then you knew what I would do, and all that you had to do was let me. But if you thought that you could just go out and have at it, you built wood, hay and stubble. Were you listening to me? I may have wanted you to stay home and attend to the children. If you had, then I would have done such and such, and so on, and this would have happened to my glory.”
Alright, changing gears here: Do you have daily things that you may do? Of course. If you have choices, you make them. You do not wait to ‘hear from God’ every time you encounter one. You may know to go out and talk to a homeless person, rather than ignore them, but if your relationship is in order, greater things may happen.
I’m not against doing. I am more for having. Scripture is more for having. Having knows what He will do. When the centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant, He knew what Jesus would do. When anyone asked Jesus, they knew what He would do. What blesses Him in this is the faith; precious trust and expectation of who God actually is and what He would do.
Abraham knew what God would do. He had no illusions, though he was asked to sacrifice his only son. That is pretty awesome.
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Don’t be bound up. You life is not bound up in doing - then having. It is in having, then doing. There is a proper order here. One is obedience, out of faith, the other is earning, and expecting a result, thinking it is faith. Having is of faith. I mean:
Rom 14:23 for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Doing to have is of works – dead ones. One is born of Spirit, the other of self-will, and flesh, boasting.
Again, all I know to say is that if you don’t pay the price, you don’t see the nice. You will be smug in self-satisfaction in all that you do for the Lord. I wouldn’t want to be there.
More about who is doing the living through you:
Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)"
We were dead in sins. He has however ‘quickened’ us, which means that He has made us alive, together with Christ, in actual fact - by Christ! Then He goes on, “by grace ye are saved.” This relates to being quickened. You are made alive by grace, which, as I have said before, is Him doing it, whatsoever ‘it’ is that is needed! God does the doing. You do the having, because He is. Not only, you are quickened together with Christ, which is being made together, or one with Him, so that His life is your quickening, by which you are made alive, and kept from sin. Otherwise you are dead (in a manner of speaking, to the fullness and the blessings of God).
Php 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."
For me to live IS Christ, (if..... and not rather to be Christlike) and to die is better!
Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
We are created unto good works. ‘Unto’ isn’t self-motivated, for did you create yourself 'unto'?. We are to walk in them by having. We don’t invent them. We have them to walk in by the life who is within.
Eph 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
quote:
2. What is the primary role of a person's will after he/she has been given and received God's grace by faith?
The role of a person's will is to yield to God. Grace enables, if the heart believes.
quote:
3. After one has received God's grace, can it ever be removed from from him/her? If so, what would cause God to do this?
I don't think God removes it. You just fail to benefit by it because you willfully resist. You reject it somehow. You are enticed by your own lusts and led astray! (James)
quote:
4. How can anyone know for sure or demonstrate clearly that he/she has been saved, particularly when he/she continues to do some things that have been identified as "sins"?
You know you have been saved. The blood and the Spirit confirm it to you.
1Jn 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
I know about 'sins'. Let me be forthcoming here. I am like you, human, and stupidly capable. However, let me draw from Watchman Nee here; les see, "The Breaking of the outward man." The tendency in Christ when you have found the meaning of grace, is to float, not sink. When we are outside of grace, the tendency is to sink, not to float. God provides for us to float (think of Peter walking on the water).
We would look on the positive side if we could assimilate His grace. The meaning of grace is usually lost on us. We think that we know. For example, grace is not an excuse for failing, but the imparted ability not to, if we will receive it.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
To quote myself:
quote:
They settle for intermediates, like their church, the pastors, books.
For example, you read a book on the purpose filled life. You don't purpose. Jesus is purpose. You may have His purpose on your behalf! Have you never heard that God has a plan for your life?
Your spirit is quickened. Your body is sanctified. It is dead because of sin, but it is accomomdated until you go home.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
:
Eden, It is true that Jesus was the spotless perfect Lamb of God, but He had a body like our own.
However, Yeshua did not have a sin-nature like we do.
The body itself is not sinful for in the day that God created it, He said it was good. It is not the body that is sinful, but it is our nature which we did inherit from the 1st Adam as He was Disobediant to God.
Is53
3 He is despised and rejected by men. Anyone here been despised and rejected?
A Man of sorrows and aquainted with grief. Anyone here ever had sorrows and grief?
To be our Perfect High Priest, Christ Yeshua had to know our griefs by experience.
Remember that while in the garden Adam and eve were naked and were not ashamed. Not until they disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Then God said this: "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil.
And what did the serpant tell eve before she ate of that tree?
"For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
The day that God created man, Adam, He made him in the likeness of God. Now we know God is not flesh but Spirit.
When Adam begot a son, according to Gen ch.5, he was in his (Adam) own likeness.
Now we know that when God created Adam, God did not make Adam a spirit, but created Adam from the dust of the ground, flesh and bones and God breathed into him the Breath of life(Spirit).
When God said "Let Us go down and make man in Our image, according to our likeness", it refers to such qualities as reason, personality, and intellect, and to the capacity to hear, to see, and to speak.
God was their covering before they Knew they were naked from being Disobediant to God and eating of the tree of Knowledge.
This was not simply a body being sinful, but it was their willingness to heed the serpents voice instead of their Makers voice and choosing to do that which they did.
What did God say to the serpent would happen?
" And I will put enmity Between your seed(Ones who follow and heed Satans voice) and her Seed(Yeshua, and those who follow His voice);
He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel. (this depicts the long struggle between good and evil, with God ultimately winning thru Yeshua the Christ, the last Adam).
Yeshua was called the Son of God, and referred to Himself as the Son of Man. He was 100% God and 100% Flesh and bones. But His Blood was 100% God. This blood shed for many was pure, precious.
Matt 4 Then Yeshua was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be Tempted by the devil.
verse 10 Then Yeshua said to him (Satan) "Away with you Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."
Rather than earthly power, Yeshua affirms exclusive worship of God and His vocation of Humble obedience and suffering. If only Adam and Eve had done this same thing, things would have been much different.
Matt 26:39
He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
Hebrewa 2:17
Threfore, in ALL things He had to be MADE like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being Tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Back up to verse 9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for th suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Yeshua was obediant unto death. He was tempted in all areas that we are. What makes Yeshua different from the first Adam is His obediance to God the Father.
Adam disobeyed God by partaking of the fruit which he was told not to, which led to our death.
Yeshua obeyed God by partaking of the fruit He was told to, which led to our life.
You know the Gnostics taught about the body being sinful with its lust ect.. to the point that they forbid men to marry women,they saw women as evil, they forbid men to eat certain foods, ect..
When God made man from the dust of the ground He called His creation good. But man became deginerate after disobeying God. It was thru disobediance that seperated man from God, but it was by obediance of Yeshua that man is redeemed back to God.
Remember the scripture that says Obediance is better than sacrifice.
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
:
Michael,
Thanks for your answers to my questions. Apparently you don't eliminate completely the necessity to obey Jesus' commandments, but you just minimize its particular nature as a part of one's will and treat it as a part of one's trusting acceptance of God's grace and transforming power as one lives IN CHRIST.
I understand that faith is a gift from God and not something that one does in order to be saved. I also understand that no one can do anything that is holy or even really loving or wise enough to please God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit within him/her. By that I mean that no one can be nice enough, loving enough, or wise enough to earn God's saving forgiveness by his/own efforts, even after he/she has been transformed from a "dead" rebel into a "living" child of God through faith.
I guess that my difference with you in regard to this matter of the role of one's will is that I give more power to it than you apparently do. I do not believe that God created us humans to be robots that He would program to be His servants or stewards or even His children. On the other hand He created us in His image to live and to exist as free creatures in relationships with Him through love and trust that He offers to give to each of us, not through laws and unresistant programmed instincts. I don't approve of your tendency to minimize the importance of the human will as expressed in the necessity for repentance and obedient service since it seems so important to Jesus. He had to die to overcome its rebellous power in God's human creatures.
I hope that I fairly understand your theology of salvation. It really is God's work, but a trusting response from His human creatures is required. Is that fair?
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Well, thank you Bob. Uhm... I don't know why people see this as robotic? Actually, it is blessed. In fact, it is required! In fact, you have your free will to go along with it or not, regardless! But if you do, then... (Well, I'm saving that for my Kingdom Of Heaven post)
But before i go: 'A trusting response' is eloquently expressed by you. I concur. In fact, though, regarding your opening statement, this is the only way that His commandments can be kept. I hope this doesn't engender more questions, rather than fewer.
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
:
Michael,
As long as one's "trusting response" includes the action of one's will beyond that of just receiving and "having" God's forgiving grace, then we understand each other. Justification and sanctification are two separate parts of God's saving and transforming work. They are not accomplished simultaneously in a single act of faithful belief even if it includes the repetition of the converts prayer followed by baptism. Giving birth to a child is totally different from rearing a child. That is true for God as it is for humans. I'm sure that you understand my point. I have no further questions for now. Thanks for your response.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
:
Hi, yahsway. You said: quote:
Eden, It is true that Jesus was the spotless perfect Lamb of God, but He had a body like our own.
However, Yeshua did not have a sin-nature like we do.
The body itself is not sinful for in the day that God created it, He said it was good. It is not the body that is sinful, but it is our nature which we did inherit from the 1st Adam as He was Disobedient to God.
yahsway, the body of the first Adam was so overflowed with glory from Adam's spirit that the glory was upon Adam and Eve's bodies as well, much like Moses's face shone after Moses had been with the LORD up on mount Sinai:
Exodus 34:29
And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
Exodus 34:30
And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
Exodus 34:35
And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
Likewise the sinful body of Moses tried to enter the tent of the congregation when the LORD came upon the tent, and Moses was NOT able to enter:
Exodus 40:35
And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
But the bodies of Adam and Eve had no such problem before Adam and Eve sinned. The Holy Spirit shone from Adam's spirit to Adam's soul and through the prism of the soul the Holy Spirit shone out onto and beyond the confines of their bodies.
After Adam and Eve sinned, the Spirit departed from Adam and Eve's spirit and gradually Adam and Eve and their descendants died sooner and sooner until nowadays the average age is maybe 80 years and we die.
The body that Jesus had, however, did NOT come up out of this deadened, gloryless Adamic line of bodies. Jesus received a body just like the first Adam had BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned:
Matthew 17:2
And he {Jesus} was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
And we also shall one day shine like the sun:
Matthew 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.
So the body that Jesus had was NOT fashioned like the bodies of sinful Adamic men, but Jesus's body was fashioned like the body that the FIRST Adam had.
And indeed, this makes the obedience of Jesus GREATER than the obedience of the first Adam because the first Adam obeyed and then disobeyed when there was NO SIN in the world yet.
But Jesus obeyed and continued to obey EVENTHOUGH their was now SIN IN THE WORLD, a temptation that the fist Adam NEVER had to deal with.
But, to repeat what you said, yahsway:Hi, yahsway. You said: quote:
Eden, It is true that Jesus was the spotless perfect Lamb of God, but He had a body like our own.
However, Yeshua did not have a sin-nature like we do.
The body itself is not sinful for in the day that God created it, He said it was good. It is not the body that is sinful, but it is our nature which we did inherit from the 1st Adam as He was Disobedient to God.
When the Spirit departed, the body died for lack of quickening Spirit. So the body also suffered, and now, the body CANNOT contain the 100% Spirit that Jesus had, as, in my opinion, stated by Jesus in this parable:
Luke 5
37 And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and then both are preserved.
with love, Eden
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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Eden, Yeshuas body was glorified after His resurrection, not before.
Yeshua came to earth as a human being. You do know that one of the earliest heresies was that of the Docetists, who taught that the Messiah only apppeared to be ahuman being.
They considered human flesh on too low a plane for so exalted a figure as The Son of God. But we know scripture syas that He was made a little lower than the angels.
This heresy persits explicitly in "theosophy" and in sects based on Eastern religious teachings which speak of "the Christ" as a spiritual entity which, in effect, masqueraded as human but was actually a "far higher being".
It still persists today in a far more widespread fashion in the implicit popular theology of much of the Christian Church, which in emphasizing Yeshua's divinity practically ignores His Humanity and portrays Him as if He floated around the Holy Land several feet off the ground.
John 1:14
The Word became a human being, lterally, "The Word became flesh." It is not that a man named Yeshua, who grew up in Nazereth, one day decided he was God. Rather, the Word, who "was with God" and "was God", gave up the Glory He had with the Father before the world existed. and emptied Himself, in that He took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are.
In other words, God sent His own Son as a human being with a nature like our own. (Romans 8:3) so that in every respect he was tempted just as we are, the only difference being that he did not sin. His human nature was real, but sinless.
In Romans 7:5 Living according to our old nature, lierally, "in the flesh." Greek "sarx" is rendered "old nature" here, at 7:14, 18, 25 and eleven times in ch.8:3-13
The problem with translating "sarx" as "flesh" is that it reinforces the mistaken popular notion that the New Tes. sets up a dualism between the soul and spirit, regarded as higher and better, and the body, regarded as lower and worse.
Is this not what todays reader gathers from KJV's rendering of v.18a, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing'? Celibacy and other ascetic practices found in some Chistian denominations are taken as proof that the New Test. teaches this, even though in reality this teaching comes straight from paganism.
By "flesh" Paul did not mean the physical body alone, BUT all the thoughts, emotions and physical urges that comprise human nature, and especially human nature as found in people before they are saved.
Paul says elswhere "If anyone is united with Messiah, he is a new creation." that is he now has a 2nd , new human nature controlled by the Holy Spirit.
The old nature has died with Yeshua, and by the Power of the Holy Spirit it will stay dead. We owe nothing to it, that we should obey its corrupted misquided passions (Romans 8:1-13)
Instead, as a result of being united with Yeshua, we owe God obedience to His desires and commands. This is how to understand "sarx" in these pasages.
The idea that the spirit is good and the body bad may be Greek or Gnostic, but it is neither Jewish nor Christian.
Yeshua was divinely begotten, but also fully human.
Posted by Kwistina (Member # 6618) on
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"yahsway, the body of the first Adam was so overflowed with glory from Adam's spirit that the glory was upon Adam and Eve's bodies as well, much like Moses's face shone after Moses had been with the LORD up on mount Sinai"
Eden: you had me until this. Do you have any scripture references to validate this belief, perhaps? It sounds good and all, but I do not believe it can be accurate. Please, if you can find scriptural proof, that would be most helpful.
Although it does sound appealing for pre-sin Adam to "shine as Moses with the Glory of God", the only difference I can find between the pre/post-sin Adam is that of a limited lifespan. It would make more sense to me that he would have an increased "immunity" to temptation if that were the case. After such an infusion of the spirit, how can one make such a blunder? The truth would have been obvious, the sin a sting to his soul if even a hint of it was mentioned! In other words, when one "scrubs in" for the surgical unit, they are not so quick to be touching unclean things, knowing they are now clean. They are more keenly aware of the things that will make them unclean than they were before, more careful. That is how I see "the glory of God", a sort of "cleansing". Were Adam and Eve thus, well, I just find it hard to believe they could sin so easily!
Is the "previous history of sin" really relevant here? Is it not, instead, the temptation of sin (I realize this is the opposite of what you stated)? In other words (and I am trying my best not to be confusing), you state that Adam did not have to deal with the temptation of previous sin in the world. True . . . but he did have to deal with temptation, did he not? His sin nature was just as strong before the fall as it was after the fall, the difference being that afterwards he was aware of sin-and it's consequence, death (which he could hardly have understood, really!! Death having never existed before), being, in essense, a sort of sin-creator. The scripture can confirm this. The temptation he faced was that of obeying God in reference to that which he was strictly forbidden from eating.
In all other respects, you make incredible clarity and defend scripture admirably. I'm just wondering about this bit-you are the first I have heard describe Adam/Christ in this way.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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quote:
They are not accomplished simultaneously in a single act of faithful belief
That is a curious thing to say. You see, everyone still wants to have a part in doing something to effect their salvation. You participate by having, and walking in the finished work of God. Your believing even, does not cause anything to happen. It accepts that it is, allows it to become real to you. Justification and sanctification is something that He does. It might be two separate things if you had to do it.
Posted by Kwistina (Member # 6618) on
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I guess what I'm trying to ask is , what is the difference between sinning where there is not prior sin, and sinning after sin has existed? And how does that make Jesus more like the pre-sin Adam than like the post-sin Adam? In essence, that would also mean that God gave Jesus a body that would never die . . . (naturally)
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Kwistina, I only have time today to say, lookk at the dis-eases in the sinful Adamic bodies.
When Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, the Spirit of God had lifted off Adam and Eve's spirits, because now Adam and Eve had decided to run their own body from the soul level and ignore the spirit level altogether.
And God allowed Adam and Eve to experience what it was like to operate the body from the soul level only without input from the spirit level which was God’s original hierarchy: God’s Spirit conveys to man’s spirit, man’s spirit conveys to soul, and soul conveys to body:
1 Thessalonians 5
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Adam and Eve in their rebellion in the garden decided, like Lucifer-Satan before them, to run their own body from the soul level and ignore the spirit to soul to body connection that God had established in the beginning.
And hence, before Jesus came, the spirit of man had become as smoking flax and as a bruised reed:
Isaiah 42:3
A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
After Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, the Spirit of God no longer shined into their spirit, and the spirit of man lay, as it were, darkened, unused, idle, so that when Jesus came, this spirit of man had to be requickened:
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
The Adamic line was sinful and its bodies were without the glory of God shining in their spirits, and so, when we believed in Jesus, this is what happened again:
2 Corinthians 4
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
We are in natural psyke bodies which have only received a downpayment of the Holy Spirit, but we still need to be clothed with our spiritual body:
1 Corintians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
In order for Jesus to pay for our sins, Jesus could NOT have had a body LIKE OURS because OUR body was a sinfilled Adamic body, dirties and tainted by centuries of soul rule.
But in order for Jesus to pay for the sins of the FIRST ADAM, Jesus had to be JUST LIKE THE FIRST ADAM before the first Adam SINNED. Sinless FIRST Adam versus sinless SECOND Adam.
For this reason, Jesus had a body JUST LIKE the first Adam, still RULED by the Spirit of God speaking into the SPIRIT OF MAN which then spoke to the soul which in turn operated the body on the basis of what THE SPIRIT HAD SAID.
That is the kind of body Jesus had, just like the first Adam before the first Adam sinned. An equal exchange. A first sinless Adam compared to a second sinless Adam. And this contest Jesus won handily.
And because Jesus was just like the first Adam, Jesus could therefore pay the full price for what the first Adam did wrong:
Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Jesus was not like us sinful Adamic descendants; only if Jesus was just like the first Adam could Jesus have proven that it was possible to be sinless.
With love, Eden
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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In the New Testament, the Lord Jesus is given two titles:
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Now, it says that the Lord Jesus was the last Adam.
When the Lord Jesus came to earth and to Israel at the start of the 1st century of our time, obviously Jesus was NOT the LAST Adam since there were MANY MORE Adams that followed, I myself being one.
So Jesus cannot have been the LAST Adam in terms of being the last Adamic descendant of Adam.
So the term LAST Adam must refer to something else, namely, the first Adam was the first Adam, and Jesus was the SECOND Adam who will also be he LAST Adam because Jesus started a new line of Adams.
The first Adam and all that came out of the first Adam was crucified with Christ when Jesus was on the cross:
1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him {of God} are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
So Jesus paid for our sin with His blood on the cross, and God crucified all that is the first Adam on the cross.
And God next started with the second man, who is also called the last Adam:
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
So Jesus did not have a body like sinful descendants of Adam have which God crucified to the cross while Jesus was on the cross.
In order for the contest to be fair and just, Jesus had to have a body just like Adam had BEFORE Adam sinned.
The contest was to show that SOMEONE WITH A BODY LIKE ADAM had before Adam sinned could stay obedient. That’s why Jesus’s body was exactly like the body of the first Adam and so Jesus became the second Adam (the second man) and also the last Adam because after Jesus there WILL BE NO MORE Adams needed to start a line of Godly sons and daughters.
The first Adam sinned by desiring to run his own body from the soul level, without input from the spirit of man, which in turn received its input from the Spirit of God.
In the first Adam before he sinned, the Spirit of God shone into Adam’s spirit, which light in turn shone through the prism of Adam’s soul which in turn lit up the body of Adam with glory, glory much greater than Moses experienced at Sinai.
But when the first Adam decided to run his body from his own soul levcl and ignore the spirit’s input, the Spirit of God no longer shone in Adam’s body and the cells of Adam’s body were no longer quickened, and disease and death of the body set in.
But the body of Jesus was full of glory because in Jesus the glory of the Spirit of God shined in the spirit of Jesus and from the spirit that glory shone through the prism of Jesus’s soul to Jesus’s body, so that Jesus said:
Luke 8:46
And Jesus said, Somebody has touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
God could only have been satisfied in the work of Jesus if Jesus and Adam had had exactly the same opportunity not to sin. So like the first Adam, Jesus a CREATED man and didn’t come through the line of the first Adam (as they supposed):
Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her {Mary}, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.
Jesus was given a body just like the first Adam had, before Adam sinned, in order for it to be fair. And we believers currently DO NOT have a body like that, but WILL RECEIVE one when we receive our glorified body. THEN we shall be like Jesus:
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Jesus was the second Adam.
So in terms of the straight gate, at this point in us believers, we cannot be like Jesus until we receive our glorfied bodies.
But the 10 commandments are not burdensome. Nor is it burdensome to try to love the Lord will all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves.
These things we can do while we wait for our glorified bodies:
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
With love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Lord Jesus I do not delight in this! A Mormon on this site would stick out like a sore thumb. You do too mildb, but it is not so obvious. I know that you don’t feel that way, judging by your posts. You have tried to make it tall and clear, like a whitehouse beacon.
The concern is, what is behind your thoughts concerning the scriptures is not what would be behind most peoples who are here, if any, in fact, a long way from it. For example, what you must be thinking when you say heretic, probably would rhyme with it, though heretic is the discrete word choice here. And since you want to call me that, I am obligated to this discourse.
First of all, that sounds very Christmassy. However, would you like to volunteer to explain how the bell ringerer and the bells fit your theology here? I doubt that you will be straight up in this.
The white lighthouse does tell a story; illustrate something. I want to call attention to the fact in the hope that people who otherwise might not, will get this (except for poor becausely), that you have your theology wrong. For one, you are confused about the difference between the Throne, and a Scepter. I know that the white lighthouse would illustrate this particular point to others if you only could; you know, if you had your incorrect theology correct. You called attention to it when you misspelled (jumbled) bema when I was referring to the White Throne over in Bible Topics in the Faith post.
Moreover, it is plainly clear that you like to sonny and shar, which didn’t make much sense at first. Now i get it. There is also a clue in your name. After all, what Christian likes to call himself a WildB? You have an itch to shar? I am not even going to touch your thinking about garden living, on groaneth and travaileth, firstfruits, and playing that were in your chosen scripture passage.
Believe me, I don’t have to attack you as an, “I’ll hurt you,” kind of guy. The Lord of Heaven give you over to work all uncleanness with greediness, as it is clear that He already has. Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man seweth, he shall also reap (KJV) and:
Eph 4:19 For they, being past feeling, have given themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
….until you sthop your sthillyness.
The Lord will help those who do not even want help. All one has to do is tell the truth about how one really feels, and ask Him to meet you. He will if you will reach out properly. It is about telling Him the truth, and asking. He knows what temptation and snares do to us. It is why He came. It is the Christmas story.
That is all…..
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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As I was reading over the new post since my last visit, yahsway’s words spoke out at me.
quote:
The Word became a human being, literally,
"The Word became flesh."
It is not that a man named Yeshua, who grew up in Nazareth; one day decided he was God.
Rather, the Word, who "was with God and was God”, gave up the Glory He, had with the Father before the world existed, and emptied Himself, in that He took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are.
Moses (a type of messiah) in the palace of Egypt, accustom to being waited on hand and foot literally, never knew anything of want, need or suffering on a personal level, left everything to be identified with the Israelites (Yahweh’s chosen people).
This, Yeshua has done for all mankind, He left the Throne of Heaven, He emptied Himself of all the majesty, power and glory that was His with His Father from before there was anything and became human, with all the weaknesses and imperfection that plague us. Not only did He come as a man, He came as a baby, a helpless baby.
The very God of Creation was dependent on someone to change His dirty diaper.
Eden made a statement…. quote:
Another thing, becauseHElives, I think you are way undervaluing the body of Jesus.
Oh no my brother, to the extreme contrary!
His Body is the body that made the final sacrifice, that throughout eternity men and women will look to and visibly see and remember because of the scares in His hands and feet and because His face beaten beyond recognition will always serve to remind mankind of the great price paid for our ransom. Oh praise Him forever!
Because all the redeemed will understand it was Yeshua’s choice that nailed Him to that cross.
Not the choice of King Herod or Pontius Pilot or anyone else….
It was Yeshua’s choice to lay down His life (and as His followers we have choices, chose you this day, everyday, blessing or curse, obedience or disobedience to the voice of the Holy Spirit) Yeshua lived in the Spirit, He walked in the Spirit and if we are truly the disciples of Yeshua we will live and walk as He did, in the Spirit. But because we live in this body of flesh, the child of Yahweh must ever make that conscience choice, I will do the will of He that purchased me, gave His life for me, made me a partaker of His divine life.
Being God and man He could have chosen not to drink that cup, He could have chosen not to suffer with man, be identified with the sin and guilt of all the ages of human existence.
But Eden and others here, we must never loose sight of just how human Yeshua was!
He knew what it was to be hungry, thirsty, cold, tired, weak, sleepy, He knew the feeling of hard work, He knew the joy of play, He knew the feeling of human love for friends and family, He knew the feeling of pride and passion, He knew the feeling of temptation of every kind, lust, envy, and hate. Only He never gave in to any temptation to bring forth sin but He could have.
If He could not have failed, as miserably as I have failed, as all have failed, He would not be qualified to be Savior for man!
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )KJV
And someone asked Him, Lord, will only a few be saved (rescued, delivered from the penalties of the last judgment, and made partakers of the salvation by Christ)? And He said to them, Strive to enter by the narrow door [force yourselves through it], for many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able. (Amplified Luke 13:23-24)
Strive to enter by the narrow door [force yourselves through it]…. Comparing scripture with scripture …compare with Luke 13:24 with Matthew 11: 12 below…
And from the days of John the Baptist until the present time, the kingdom of heaven has endured violent assault (those that through prayer, fasting, studying the scriptures, seeking Yahweh with all their heart)by violent men seize it by force [as a precious prize--a share in the heavenly kingdom is sought with most ardent zeal and intense exertion].
The lukewarm believer,
the half hearted,
the double minded,
the one who's eye is not single,
the one who will not take up his cross and follow Yeshua ,
the one who does not give Yeshua all,
the person not separated, separate other than this world,
the one that loves the world,
will never make it through the straight gate even though they seek to.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Oh Mike,
Matt.12
[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
That is all
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Probably it is appropiately stated in the post above, that the violent take it by force. The violent do, and those calling themselves Christians are way too often the most dangerous people to Christianity, if you consider what has been done in Christ's name throughout history. Consider how that, from the pulpit, and from governments they prevent believers from entering the Kingdom, and enter not in themselves, if you are able. However, God's sheep should be able to realize a different meaning than the prevalent one concerning this passage. The word violent should be an indisputable clue. Sheep aren't violent. They do not ravenously devour their way inside to be king of the hill, and lords over God's flock, beating them with passages and stern warnings of judgment upon them. The violent referred to here cannot mean the believer, but either the self justified, self seeking, or the athiest!
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Ahm not looking for a sign B. On second thought though, having written what i did just a bit ago, it doesn't seem appropiate now. So i have erased it.
Someone on the radio recently, talking about how to talk to a Mormon, related that you have to be careful because in conversation you can sound like you are saying the same thing in complete agreement. However, they (the Mormons) have assigned a different meaning to the same scriptures, or rhetoric, and though it sounds like you are agreeing on something, you are not. You have to understand what they are really meaning in order to have the conversation properly.
There is another group that has a completely different understanding of what scriptures mean: a grossly perverted one. What is even worse is, they can post messages that sound like gospel, but mean probably the most horricfic thing imaginable if one could only realize. But to them it is perfectly pleasing, and so cleaverly disguised so that only their own would recognize it. Take note though; the message that they hate is the one that says that Jesus doesn't accept you as you are! No one coming to Him who isn't willing to be changed into Jesus' likeness, will be accepted, which for them will not do (unless they pervert what Jesus' likeness is). They are not willing to change. They want acceptance for what they are. That is why i was denounced as a heretic, so sadly, not as though i was a gospel heretic, but as one who doesn't recognize a perverse work of the flesh as acceptable in God's sight.
They will preach love and acceptance, but that is not the Gospel of the Kingdom entirely. There is judgement. Love, and acceptance sounds good to them because they want to be assimilated and accepted without forfeiting their wickedness, as though God will take them as they are and even bless them.
They will be careful not to say anything to give them away, their words being chosen carefully to make them blend in, and ring true; unless of course you can really see what they are saying, in which case you would be shocked crosseyed!
But they have the opportunity to repent, as do we all. In any case take note that this is how it is. After all, even Judas was chosen as one of the twelve.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Michael Harrison you can have your do nothing faith, I will continue demonstration the life that is in me by the fruit of the life that is in me. I will continue to abide in Yeshua…
I will continue to press in to the things of Yeshua, I will say with the Apostle Paul “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: (like Michael Harrison) but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
I will continue to pray without ceasing by the Spirit of Yahweh
I will continue to love the Lord with my whole heart, mind, body as the first Commandment teaches
I will continue to show Yeshua’s love to a dying world by acts of kindness as Yahweh gives opportunity
I will continue to fast to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke
I will continue to preach the uncompromising message of the Gospel to a generation of adulterous church goers
I will continue to preach separation from this world;
I will continue to teach the straight gate and the narrow path which few will find
Luke 16:16… “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
The word presseth in original language means …
1) to use force, to apply force
2) to force, inflict violence on
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G971&Version=kjv
Matthew 11:
11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. …….
Matthew 11:12 and Luke 16:16 are companion verses referring to the same subject matter…
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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Go right ahead becausely: Godspeed! I wish you the best.
Posted by Eden (Member # 5728) on
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Hi, Michael Harrison. You said to becauseHElives: "Go right ahead becausely: Godspeed! I wish you the best."
I don't think that you can "wish him the best" when you, as a bornagain Christian, are on purpose not addressing him by his correct cybername, which is becauseHElives. Instead, your sort of ridicule him with becausely.
It's not a great sin to do this , but it is also not very becoming either for a bornagain Christian, and it rather hinders than helps your cause of preaching and teaching and sharing.
Can you please call him by his correct cybername only?
with love, Eden
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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It is the only way i can be nice. Anyway, he knows of whom i am speaking.
I know that he means really well, but his teaching doesn't doesn't reflect the reality and the glorious meaning in the words that his handle represents. I mean no disrespect to him, but rather, would certainly not disrespect the blessed value and meaning of that title by condoning it as the crown approval of his particular message.
I'm so sorry that you see it as sin. Would you say the same about what Jesus said about the Pharisees. He was pretty curt (i kno, i sed glib) a couple of times. (Excuse me. I should say curt! The Pharisees were glib.)
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
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You wanted to correct me about the passage in Corinthians, but to understand it clearly, Paul did not run as uncertainly, as one who beateth the air. Some who truly thought themselves on their way were doing just that. Paul used this illustration to try to get the true followers on the right track. The shadow boxers however would still be looking to ko their own shadow. It still continues today.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Yes Michael Harrison you are confused as your last post reveals. Verse 18 would truly be addressed to you.
Here is Philippians chapter 3 broke down so even you can understand. Pay close attention to verses 10-13
Verse 1
[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
The same things — Which you have heard before.
Verse 2
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Beware of dogs — Unclean, unholy, rapacious men. The title which the Jews usually gave the gentiles, he returns upon themselves.
The concision — Circumcision being now ceased, the apostle will not call them the circumcision, but coins a term on purpose, taken from a Greek word used by the LXX, Leviticus 21:5, for such a cutting as God had forbidden.
Verse 3
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
For we — Christians. Are the only true circumcision - The people now in covenant with God.
Who worship God in spirit — Not barely in the letter, but with the spiritual worship of inward holiness.
And glory in Christ Jesus — As the only cause of all our blessings.
And have no confidence in the flesh — In any outward advantage or prerogative.
Verse 4
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Though I — He subjoins this in the singular number, because the Philippians could not say thus.
Verse 5
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Circumcised the eighth day — Not at ripe age, as a proselyte.
Of the tribe of Benjamin — Sprung from the wife, not the handmaid.
An Hebrew of Hebrews — By both my parents; in everything, nation, religion, language.
Touching the law, a pharisee — One of that sect who most accurately observe it.
Verse 6
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Having such a zeal for it as to persecute to the death those who did not observe it. Touching the righteousness which is described and enjoined by the Law - That is, external observances, blameless.
Verse 7
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
But all these things, which I then accounted gain, which were once my confidence, my glory, and joy, those, ever since I have believed, I have accounted loss, nothing worth in comparison of Christ.
Verse 8
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Yea, I still account both all these and all things else to be mere loss, compared to the inward, experimental knowledge of Christ, as my Lord, as my prophet, priest, and king, as teaching me wisdom, atoning for my sins, and reigning in my heart. To refer this to justification only, is miserably to pervert the whole scope of the words. They manifestly relate to sanctification also; yea, to that chiefly. For whom I have actually suffered the loss of all things - Which the world loves, esteems, or admires; of which I am so far from repenting, that I still account them but dung - The discourse rises. Loss is sustained with patience, but dung is cast away with abhorrence. The Greek word signifies any, the vilest refuse of things, the dross of metals, the dregs of liquors, the excrements of animals, the most worthless scraps of meat, the basest offals, fit only for dogs.
That I may gain Christ — He that loses all things, not excepting himself, gains Christ, and is gained by Christ. And still there is more; which even St. Paul speaks of his having not yet gained.
Verse 9
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
And be found by God ingrafted in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law - That merely outward righteousness prescribed by the law, and performed by my own strength. But that inward righteousness which is through faith - Which can flow from no other fountain.
The righteousness which is from God — From his almighty Spirit, not by my own strength, but by faith alone. Here also the apostle is far from speaking of justification only.
Verse 10
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
The knowledge of Christ, mentioned in the eighth verse, is here more largely explained.
That I may know him — As my complete Saviour.
And the power of his resurrection — Raising me from the death of sin, into all the life of love.
And the fellowship of his sufferings — Being crucified with him.
And made conformable to his death — So as to be dead to all things here below.
Verse 11
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
The resurrection of the dead — That is, the resurrection to glory.
Verse 12
[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Not that I have already attained — The prize. He here enters on a new set of metaphors, taken from a race. But observe how, in the utmost fervour, he retains his sobriety of spirit.
Or am already perfected — There is a difference between one that is perfect, and one that is perfected. The one is fitted for the race, Philippians 3:15; the other, ready to receive the prize.
But I pursue, if I may apprehend that — Perfect holiness, preparatory to glory. For, in order to which I was apprehended by Christ Jesus - Appearing to me in the way, Acts 26:14. The speaking conditionally both here and in the preceding verse, implies no uncertainty, but only the difficulty of attaining.
Verse 13
[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I do not account myself to have apprehended this already; to be already possessed of perfect holiness.
Verse 14
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Forgetting the things that are behind — Even that part of the race which is already run.
And reaching forth unto — Literally, stretched out over the things that are before - Pursuing with the whole bent and vigour of my soul, perfect holiness and eternal glory.
In Christ Jesus — The author and finisher of every good thing.
Verse 15
[15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Let us, as many as are perfect — Fit for the race, strong in faith; so it means here.
Be thus minded — Apply wholly to this one thing.
And if in anything ye — Who are not perfect, who are weak in faith.
Be otherwise minded — Pursuing other things. God, if ye desire it, shall reveal even this unto you - Will convince you of it.
Verse 16
[16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
But let us take care not to lose the ground we have already gained. Let us walk by the same rule we have done hitherto.
Verse 17
[17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Mark them — For your imitation.
Verse 18
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Weeping — As he wrote.
Enemies of the cross of Christ — Such are all cowardly, all shamefaced, all delicate Christians.
Verse 19
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Whose end is destruction — This is placed in the front, that what follows may be read with the greater horror.
Whose god is their belly — Whose supreme happiness lies in gratifying their sensual appetites.
Who mind — Relish, desire, seek, earthly things.
Verse 20
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Our conversation — The Greek word is of a very extenslve meaning: our citizenship, our thoughts, our affections, are already in heaven.
Verse 21
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Who will transform our vile body — Into the most perfect state, and the most beauteous form. It will then be purer than the unspotted firmament, brighter than the lustre of the stars and, which exceeds all parallel, which comprehends all perfection, like unto his glorious body - Like that wonderfully glorious body which he wears in his heavenly kingdom, and on his triumphant throne.
Posted by Michael Harrison (Member # 6801) on
:
Of course, becausely and oneinchrist are completely right! There is obedience involved (which is what they cannot get past in what i am saying). Many think that they can hold onto, who may know what, and go on with God (thinking that quoting scripture will make them right). But, the synchronization of belief, or identifying with Him unto salvation, requires willingness to obey unto surrender. For example, you may be married for your third time. Perhaps you will have to deal with it somehow. (I won't suggest what.) If He asks you to do some thing to comply, will you be willing? (He is Lord of the Sabbath, so there is no rule here except the question of what He is saying to you.) I will remind you, there is a truly, truly tall price to follow, (but small really) but it is for the Pearl of Great, Great Price.
Or, you may be in a job that He doesn't approve of. Perhaps you drive a beer truck. He might ask you to give it up. It will seem hard to do. You will likely struggle thinking, "What about my wife and kids? How will i feed them?"
Or then you might be gay. If you are not willing to let Him deliver you from it.... So you see, if you don't obey, you don't abide. You don't get around this.
Jesus wasn't kidding when He said that it is hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. Though the example He used was of a truly wealthy individual, the examples above are the same. These things that hinder are the same as mammon, i.e. riches.
Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."
If you are not willing to obey in this first step into the Kingdom of God here on earth, you resemble the last part of this verse: You will hold to one, and resultingly, despise the other - God your Lord.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
Michael Harrison you don’t have any idea what I have gotten pass, but the one thing I will never get passed is the “TRUTH”.
My message is always clear and concise, it take all to follow Christ, He has not offered anything less.
That of this world you love more than Christ, father, mother, sons, daughter, houses, land, cars, boats…anything… make an individual unfit to be His follower…
But we are not brought into the Kingdom as adults; we must become as little children and learn….line on line, precept on precept, here a little there a little.
The parable of the
WHEAT AND CHAFF.
A morbid desire to mark what is termed " the just
indignation of God against sin," has led to the explaining
of many texts of Scripture to mean the very
reverse of what they really teach.
In Matt. iii. 11, 12, the Baptist preaches as follows:— "
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance : but He that
cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to
bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and
gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with
unquenchable fire."
The allusion does not appear to be to the day of
judgment, but to the effects in the present life of the
sword of the Spirit or word of God upon the heart
and life of every true believer.
Isaiah (v. 24), in denouncing a " woe unto them that
are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to
mingle shechar, which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from
him," says,—"As the fire devoureth the stubble, and
the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as
rottenness, and their blossom go up as dust: because
they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts."
The Baptist is simply describing the difference between
the mission of himself and that of Christ, and the respective
adequateness of cause to effect, of means to results. As a messenger sent beforehand, he (John) has come to baptize with water the symbol of truth (in
the letter), which, if listened to, will insure repentance ;
but Christ would, baptize with His own Spirit —
that of divine truth—all who were willing to receive
It; and the result would be similar to that of a fan or
winnowing machine on the floor of a barn, blowing away
the wheat from the chaff—separating the evil thoughts,
words, and impulses from the good; gathering up the
wheat into the garner dedicated to the glory of the
Lord and provided for His creatures' happiness, burning
up the chaff with the flame of divine love, which
has become " unquenchable " in the heart.
Note, the fan of the Lord is in His hand, and the
moment He is permitted to enter the heart of a sinner
through faith working by love, He by His Spirit of
Truth begins to purge the floor; and as fast as the
chaff appears, which it will continue to do, it is separated
by constant threshing, and by the ardent flame of
love is consumed, and vanishes. "
Posted by Kwistina (Member # 6618) on
:
Eden: I apologize for taking so long to reply to your post-I was actually sick that week, hence had the time to actually return to this message board! . . .which I haven't had since.
Anyhow, it does not appear we are to be reconciled on the point of Jesus Christ's body. I don't feel your scripture references support your statement as much as they support mine. Adam, yes, is the "earthy" one, and Jesus the "spiritual" adam. By earthy, I see a body just like my own, only originally without the ability to die.
The passages given also do not differentiate between pre and post-sin adam. When scripture does not specify or indicate differences, we do not have the right to assume that differences occur. For example, grape juice and wine have the same greek word. Context alone led translators to differentiate. I'm sure they had their reasons, but when God does not go out of his way to show preference for one over the other, it is not an issue he values greatly.
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