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Author Topic: The straight gate /
Kwistina
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Eden: I apologize for taking so long to reply to your post-I was actually sick that week, hence had the time to actually return to this message board! . . .which I haven't had since.

Anyhow, it does not appear we are to be reconciled on the point of Jesus Christ's body. I don't feel your scripture references support your statement as much as they support mine. Adam, yes, is the "earthy" one, and Jesus the "spiritual" adam. By earthy, I see a body just like my own, only originally without the ability to die.

The passages given also do not differentiate between pre and post-sin adam. When scripture does not specify or indicate differences, we do not have the right to assume that differences occur. For example, grape juice and wine have the same greek word. Context alone led translators to differentiate. I'm sure they had their reasons, but when God does not go out of his way to show preference for one over the other, it is not an issue he values greatly.

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becauseHElives
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Michael Harrison you don’t have any idea what I have gotten pass, but the one thing I will never get passed is the “TRUTH”.

My message is always clear and concise, it take all to follow Christ, He has not offered anything less.

That of this world you love more than Christ, father, mother, sons, daughter, houses, land, cars, boats…anything… make an individual unfit to be His follower…

But we are not brought into the Kingdom as adults; we must become as little children and learn….line on line, precept on precept, here a little there a little.

The parable of the

WHEAT AND CHAFF.

A morbid desire to mark what is termed " the just
indignation of God against sin," has led to the explaining
of many texts of Scripture to mean the very
reverse of what they really teach.

In Matt. iii. 11, 12, the Baptist preaches as follows:— "
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance : but He that
cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to
bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
whose fan is in His hand, and He will throughly purge His floor, and
gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with
unquenchable fire."

The allusion does not appear to be to the day of
judgment, but to the effects in the present life of the
sword of the Spirit or word of God upon the heart
and life of every true believer.

Isaiah (v. 24), in denouncing a " woe unto them that
are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to
mingle shechar, which justify the wicked for reward,
and take away the righteousness of the righteous from
him," says,—"As the fire devoureth the stubble, and
the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as
rottenness, and their blossom go up as dust: because
they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts."

The Baptist is simply describing the difference between
the mission of himself and that of Christ, and the respective
adequateness of cause to effect, of means to results. As a messenger sent beforehand, he (John) has come to baptize with water the symbol of truth (in
the letter), which, if listened to, will insure repentance ;
but Christ would, baptize with His own Spirit —
that of divine truth—all who were willing to receive
It; and the result would be similar to that of a fan or
winnowing machine on the floor of a barn, blowing away
the wheat from the chaff—separating the evil thoughts,
words, and impulses from the good; gathering up the
wheat into the garner dedicated to the glory of the
Lord and provided for His creatures' happiness, burning
up the chaff with the flame of divine love, which
has become " unquenchable " in the heart.

Note, the fan of the Lord is in His hand, and the
moment He is permitted to enter the heart of a sinner
through faith working by love, He by His Spirit of
Truth begins to purge the floor; and as fast as the
chaff appears, which it will continue to do, it is separated
by constant threshing, and by the ardent flame of
love is consumed, and vanishes. "

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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Of course, becausely and oneinchrist are completely right! There is obedience involved (which is what they cannot get past in what i am saying). Many think that they can hold onto, who may know what, and go on with God (thinking that quoting scripture will make them right). But, the synchronization of belief, or identifying with Him unto salvation, requires willingness to obey unto surrender. For example, you may be married for your third time. Perhaps you will have to deal with it somehow. (I won't suggest what.) If He asks you to do some thing to comply, will you be willing? (He is Lord of the Sabbath, so there is no rule here except the question of what He is saying to you.) I will remind you, there is a truly, truly tall price to follow, (but small really) but it is for the Pearl of Great, Great Price.

Or, you may be in a job that He doesn't approve of. Perhaps you drive a beer truck. He might ask you to give it up. It will seem hard to do. You will likely struggle thinking, "What about my wife and kids? How will i feed them?"

Or then you might be gay. If you are not willing to let Him deliver you from it.... So you see, if you don't obey, you don't abide. You don't get around this.

Jesus wasn't kidding when He said that it is hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. Though the example He used was of a truly wealthy individual, the examples above are the same. These things that hinder are the same as mammon, i.e. riches.

Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon."

If you are not willing to obey in this first step into the Kingdom of God here on earth, you resemble the last part of this verse: You will hold to one, and resultingly, despise the other - God your Lord.

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becauseHElives
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[Confused] Yes Michael Harrison you are confused as your last post reveals. Verse 18 would truly be addressed to you.

Here is Philippians chapter 3 broke down so even you can understand. Pay close attention to verses 10-13

Verse 1
[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
The same things — Which you have heard before.

Verse 2
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Beware of dogs — Unclean, unholy, rapacious men. The title which the Jews usually gave the gentiles, he returns upon themselves.
The concision — Circumcision being now ceased, the apostle will not call them the circumcision, but coins a term on purpose, taken from a Greek word used by the LXX, Leviticus 21:5, for such a cutting as God had forbidden.

Verse 3
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
For we — Christians. Are the only true circumcision - The people now in covenant with God.
Who worship God in spirit — Not barely in the letter, but with the spiritual worship of inward holiness.
And glory in Christ Jesus — As the only cause of all our blessings.
And have no confidence in the flesh — In any outward advantage or prerogative.

Verse 4
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Though I — He subjoins this in the singular number, because the Philippians could not say thus.

Verse 5
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Circumcised the eighth day — Not at ripe age, as a proselyte.
Of the tribe of Benjamin — Sprung from the wife, not the handmaid.
An Hebrew of Hebrews — By both my parents; in everything, nation, religion, language.
Touching the law, a pharisee — One of that sect who most accurately observe it.

Verse 6
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Having such a zeal for it as to persecute to the death those who did not observe it. Touching the righteousness which is described and enjoined by the Law - That is, external observances, blameless.

Verse 7
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
But all these things, which I then accounted gain, which were once my confidence, my glory, and joy, those, ever since I have believed, I have accounted loss, nothing worth in comparison of Christ.

Verse 8
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Yea, I still account both all these and all things else to be mere loss, compared to the inward, experimental knowledge of Christ, as my Lord, as my prophet, priest, and king, as teaching me wisdom, atoning for my sins, and reigning in my heart. To refer this to justification only, is miserably to pervert the whole scope of the words. They manifestly relate to sanctification also; yea, to that chiefly. For whom I have actually suffered the loss of all things - Which the world loves, esteems, or admires; of which I am so far from repenting, that I still account them but dung - The discourse rises. Loss is sustained with patience, but dung is cast away with abhorrence. The Greek word signifies any, the vilest refuse of things, the dross of metals, the dregs of liquors, the excrements of animals, the most worthless scraps of meat, the basest offals, fit only for dogs.
That I may gain Christ — He that loses all things, not excepting himself, gains Christ, and is gained by Christ. And still there is more; which even St. Paul speaks of his having not yet gained.

Verse 9
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
And be found by God ingrafted in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law - That merely outward righteousness prescribed by the law, and performed by my own strength. But that inward righteousness which is through faith - Which can flow from no other fountain.
The righteousness which is from God — From his almighty Spirit, not by my own strength, but by faith alone. Here also the apostle is far from speaking of justification only.

Verse 10
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
The knowledge of Christ, mentioned in the eighth verse, is here more largely explained.
That I may know him — As my complete Saviour.
And the power of his resurrection — Raising me from the death of sin, into all the life of love.
And the fellowship of his sufferings — Being crucified with him.
And made conformable to his death — So as to be dead to all things here below.

Verse 11
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
The resurrection of the dead — That is, the resurrection to glory.

Verse 12
[12] Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Not that I have already attained — The prize. He here enters on a new set of metaphors, taken from a race. But observe how, in the utmost fervour, he retains his sobriety of spirit.
Or am already perfected — There is a difference between one that is perfect, and one that is perfected. The one is fitted for the race, Philippians 3:15; the other, ready to receive the prize.
But I pursue, if I may apprehend that — Perfect holiness, preparatory to glory. For, in order to which I was apprehended by Christ Jesus - Appearing to me in the way, Acts 26:14. The speaking conditionally both here and in the preceding verse, implies no uncertainty, but only the difficulty of attaining.

Verse 13
[13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I do not account myself to have apprehended this already; to be already possessed of perfect holiness.

Verse 14
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Forgetting the things that are behind — Even that part of the race which is already run.
And reaching forth unto — Literally, stretched out over the things that are before - Pursuing with the whole bent and vigour of my soul, perfect holiness and eternal glory.
In Christ Jesus — The author and finisher of every good thing.

Verse 15
[15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Let us, as many as are perfect — Fit for the race, strong in faith; so it means here.
Be thus minded — Apply wholly to this one thing.
And if in anything ye — Who are not perfect, who are weak in faith.
Be otherwise minded — Pursuing other things. God, if ye desire it, shall reveal even this unto you - Will convince you of it.

Verse 16
[16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
But let us take care not to lose the ground we have already gained. Let us walk by the same rule we have done hitherto.

Verse 17
[17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Mark them — For your imitation.

Verse 18
[18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Weeping — As he wrote.
Enemies of the cross of Christ — Such are all cowardly, all shamefaced, all delicate Christians.

Verse 19
[19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Whose end is destruction — This is placed in the front, that what follows may be read with the greater horror.
Whose god is their belly — Whose supreme happiness lies in gratifying their sensual appetites.
Who mind — Relish, desire, seek, earthly things.

Verse 20
[20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Our conversation — The Greek word is of a very extenslve meaning: our citizenship, our thoughts, our affections, are already in heaven.

Verse 21
[21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Who will transform our vile body — Into the most perfect state, and the most beauteous form. It will then be purer than the unspotted firmament, brighter than the lustre of the stars and, which exceeds all parallel, which comprehends all perfection, like unto his glorious body - Like that wonderfully glorious body which he wears in his heavenly kingdom, and on his triumphant throne.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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You wanted to correct me about the passage in Corinthians, but to understand it clearly, Paul did not run as uncertainly, as one who beateth the air. Some who truly thought themselves on their way were doing just that. Paul used this illustration to try to get the true followers on the right track. The shadow boxers however would still be looking to ko their own shadow. It still continues today.
[clap2] [clap2] [clap2] [Confused] [clap2] [clap2]

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Michael Harrison
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It is the only way i can be nice. Anyway, he knows of whom i am speaking.

I know that he means really well, but his teaching doesn't doesn't reflect the reality and the glorious meaning in the words that his handle represents. I mean no disrespect to him, but rather, would certainly not disrespect the blessed value and meaning of that title by condoning it as the crown approval of his particular message.

I'm so sorry that you see it as sin. Would you say the same about what Jesus said about the Pharisees. He was pretty curt (i kno, i sed glib) a couple of times. (Excuse me. I should say curt! The Pharisees were glib.)

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Eden
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Hi, Michael Harrison. You said to becauseHElives: "Go right ahead becausely: Godspeed! I wish you the best."

I don't think that you can "wish him the best" when you, as a bornagain Christian, are on purpose not addressing him by his correct cybername, which is becauseHElives. Instead, your sort of ridicule him with becausely.

It's not a great sin to do this , but it is also not very becoming either for a bornagain Christian, and it rather hinders than helps your cause of preaching and teaching and sharing.

Can you please call him by his correct cybername only?

with love, Eden

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Michael Harrison
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Go right ahead becausely: Godspeed! I wish you the best.
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becauseHElives
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Michael Harrison you can have your do nothing faith, I will continue demonstration the life that is in me by the fruit of the life that is in me. I will continue to abide in Yeshua…

I will continue to press in to the things of Yeshua, I will say with the Apostle Paul “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: (like Michael Harrison) but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
I will continue to pray without ceasing by the Spirit of Yahweh
I will continue to love the Lord with my whole heart, mind, body as the first Commandment teaches
I will continue to show Yeshua’s love to a dying world by acts of kindness as Yahweh gives opportunity
I will continue to fast to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke
I will continue to preach the uncompromising message of the Gospel to a generation of adulterous church goers
I will continue to preach separation from this world;
I will continue to teach the straight gate and the narrow path which few will find


Luke 16:16… “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

The word presseth in original language means …
1) to use force, to apply force
2) to force, inflict violence on

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G971&Version=kjv

Matthew 11:
11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. …….

Matthew 11:12 and Luke 16:16 are companion verses referring to the same subject matter…

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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Ahm not looking for a sign B. On second thought though, having written what i did just a bit ago, it doesn't seem appropiate now. So i have erased it.

Someone on the radio recently, talking about how to talk to a Mormon, related that you have to be careful because in conversation you can sound like you are saying the same thing in complete agreement. However, they (the Mormons) have assigned a different meaning to the same scriptures, or rhetoric, and though it sounds like you are agreeing on something, you are not. You have to understand what they are really meaning in order to have the conversation properly.

There is another group that has a completely different understanding of what scriptures mean: a grossly perverted one. What is even worse is, they can post messages that sound like gospel, but mean probably the most horricfic thing imaginable if one could only realize. But to them it is perfectly pleasing, and so cleaverly disguised so that only their own would recognize it. Take note though; the message that they hate is the one that says that Jesus doesn't accept you as you are! No one coming to Him who isn't willing to be changed into Jesus' likeness, will be accepted, which for them will not do (unless they pervert what Jesus' likeness is). They are not willing to change. They want acceptance for what they are. That is why i was denounced as a heretic, so sadly, not as though i was a gospel heretic, but as one who doesn't recognize a perverse work of the flesh as acceptable in God's sight.

They will preach love and acceptance, but that is not the Gospel of the Kingdom entirely. There is judgement. Love, and acceptance sounds good to them because they want to be assimilated and accepted without forfeiting their wickedness, as though God will take them as they are and even bless them.

They will be careful not to say anything to give them away, their words being chosen carefully to make them blend in, and ring true; unless of course you can really see what they are saying, in which case you would be shocked crosseyed!

But they have the opportunity to repent, as do we all. In any case take note that this is how it is. After all, even Judas was chosen as one of the twelve.

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Michael Harrison
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Probably it is appropiately stated in the post above, that the violent take it by force. The violent do, and those calling themselves Christians are way too often the most dangerous people to Christianity, if you consider what has been done in Christ's name throughout history. Consider how that, from the pulpit, and from governments they prevent believers from entering the Kingdom, and enter not in themselves, if you are able. However, God's sheep should be able to realize a different meaning than the prevalent one concerning this passage. The word violent should be an indisputable clue. Sheep aren't violent. They do not ravenously devour their way inside to be king of the hill, and lords over God's flock, beating them with passages and stern warnings of judgment upon them. The violent referred to here cannot mean the believer, but either the self justified, self seeking, or the athiest!
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WildB
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Oh Mike,

Matt.12

[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:


That is all

--------------------
That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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As I was reading over the new post since my last visit, yahsway’s words spoke out at me.

quote:
The Word became a human being, literally,

"The Word became flesh."

It is not that a man named Yeshua, who grew up in Nazareth; one day decided he was God.

Rather, the Word, who "was with God and was God”, gave up the Glory He, had with the Father before the world existed, and emptied Himself, in that He took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are.

Moses (a type of messiah) in the palace of Egypt, accustom to being waited on hand and foot literally, never knew anything of want, need or suffering on a personal level, left everything to be identified with the Israelites (Yahweh’s chosen people).

This, Yeshua has done for all mankind, He left the Throne of Heaven, He emptied Himself of all the majesty, power and glory that was His with His Father from before there was anything and became human, with all the weaknesses and imperfection that plague us. Not only did He come as a man, He came as a baby, a helpless baby.
The very God of Creation was dependent on someone to change His dirty diaper.

Eden made a statement….
quote:
Another thing, becauseHElives, I think you are way undervaluing the body of Jesus.
Oh no my brother, to the extreme contrary!

His Body is the body that made the final sacrifice, that throughout eternity men and women will look to and visibly see and remember because of the scares in His hands and feet and because His face beaten beyond recognition will always serve to remind mankind of the great price paid for our ransom. Oh praise Him forever!

Because all the redeemed will understand it was Yeshua’s choice that nailed Him to that cross.

Not the choice of King Herod or Pontius Pilot or anyone else….

It was Yeshua’s choice to lay down His life (and as His followers we have choices, chose you this day, everyday, blessing or curse, obedience or disobedience to the voice of the Holy Spirit) Yeshua lived in the Spirit, He walked in the Spirit and if we are truly the disciples of Yeshua we will live and walk as He did, in the Spirit. But because we live in this body of flesh, the child of Yahweh must ever make that conscience choice, I will do the will of He that purchased me, gave His life for me, made me a partaker of His divine life.

Being God and man He could have chosen not to drink that cup, He could have chosen not to suffer with man, be identified with the sin and guilt of all the ages of human existence.

But Eden and others here, we must never loose sight of just how human Yeshua was!

He knew what it was to be hungry, thirsty, cold, tired, weak, sleepy, He knew the feeling of hard work, He knew the joy of play, He knew the feeling of human love for friends and family, He knew the feeling of pride and passion, He knew the feeling of temptation of every kind, lust, envy, and hate. Only He never gave in to any temptation to bring forth sin but He could have.

If He could not have failed, as miserably as I have failed, as all have failed, He would not be qualified to be Savior for man!


Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )KJV

And someone asked Him, Lord, will only a few be saved (rescued, delivered from the penalties of the last judgment, and made partakers of the salvation by Christ)? And He said to them, Strive to enter by the narrow door [force yourselves through it], for many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able. (Amplified Luke 13:23-24)

Strive to enter by the narrow door [force yourselves through it]…. Comparing scripture with scripture …compare with Luke 13:24 with Matthew 11: 12 below…

And from the days of John the Baptist until the present time, the kingdom of heaven has endured violent assault (those that through prayer, fasting, studying the scriptures, seeking Yahweh with all their heart)by violent men seize it by force [as a precious prize--a share in the heavenly kingdom is sought with most ardent zeal and intense exertion].


The lukewarm believer,

the half hearted,

the double minded,

the one who's eye is not single,

the one who will not take up his cross and follow Yeshua ,

the one who does not give Yeshua all,

the person not separated, separate other than this world,

the one that loves the world,

will never make it through the straight gate even though they seek to.


--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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Lord Jesus I do not delight in this! A Mormon on this site would stick out like a sore thumb. You do too mildb, but it is not so obvious. I know that you don’t feel that way, judging by your posts. You have tried to make it tall and clear, like a whitehouse beacon.

The concern is, what is behind your thoughts concerning the scriptures is not what would be behind most peoples who are here, if any, in fact, a long way from it. For example, what you must be thinking when you say heretic, probably would rhyme with it, though heretic is the discrete word choice here. And since you want to call me that, I am obligated to this discourse.

First of all, that sounds very Christmassy. However, would you like to volunteer to explain how the bell ringerer and the bells fit your theology here? I doubt that you will be straight up in this.

The white lighthouse does tell a story; illustrate something. I want to call attention to the fact in the hope that people who otherwise might not, will get this (except for poor becausely), that you have your theology wrong. For one, you are confused about the difference between the Throne, and a Scepter. I know that the white lighthouse would illustrate this particular point to others if you only could; you know, if you had your incorrect theology correct. You called attention to it when you misspelled (jumbled) bema when I was referring to the White Throne over in Bible Topics in the Faith post.

Moreover, it is plainly clear that you like to sonny and shar, which didn’t make much sense at first. Now i get it. There is also a clue in your name. After all, what Christian likes to call himself a WildB? You have an itch to shar? I am not even going to touch your thinking about garden living, on groaneth and travaileth, firstfruits, and playing that were in your chosen scripture passage.

Believe me, I don’t have to attack you as an, “I’ll hurt you,” kind of guy. The Lord of Heaven give you over to work all uncleanness with greediness, as it is clear that He already has. Be not deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man seweth, he shall also reap (KJV) and:

Eph 4:19 For they, being past feeling, have given themselves up to lust, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

….until you sthop your sthillyness.

The Lord will help those who do not even want help. All one has to do is tell the truth about how one really feels, and ask Him to meet you. He will if you will reach out properly. It is about telling Him the truth, and asking. He knows what temptation and snares do to us. It is why He came. It is the Christmas story.

That is all…..

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Eden
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In the New Testament, the Lord Jesus is given two titles:

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Now, it says that the Lord Jesus was the last Adam.

When the Lord Jesus came to earth and to Israel at the start of the 1st century of our time, obviously Jesus was NOT the LAST Adam since there were MANY MORE Adams that followed, I myself being one.

So Jesus cannot have been the LAST Adam in terms of being the last Adamic descendant of Adam.

So the term LAST Adam must refer to something else, namely, the first Adam was the first Adam, and Jesus was the SECOND Adam who will also be he LAST Adam because Jesus started a new line of Adams.

The first Adam and all that came out of the first Adam was crucified with Christ when Jesus was on the cross:

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him {of God} are you in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption.

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

So Jesus paid for our sin with His blood on the cross, and God crucified all that is the first Adam on the cross.

And God next started with the second man, who is also called the last Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

So Jesus did not have a body like sinful descendants of Adam have which God crucified to the cross while Jesus was on the cross.

In order for the contest to be fair and just, Jesus had to have a body just like Adam had BEFORE Adam sinned.

The contest was to show that SOMEONE WITH A BODY LIKE ADAM had before Adam sinned could stay obedient. That’s why Jesus’s body was exactly like the body of the first Adam and so Jesus became the second Adam (the second man) and also the last Adam because after Jesus there WILL BE NO MORE Adams needed to start a line of Godly sons and daughters.

The first Adam sinned by desiring to run his own body from the soul level, without input from the spirit of man, which in turn received its input from the Spirit of God.

In the first Adam before he sinned, the Spirit of God shone into Adam’s spirit, which light in turn shone through the prism of Adam’s soul which in turn lit up the body of Adam with glory, glory much greater than Moses experienced at Sinai.

But when the first Adam decided to run his body from his own soul levcl and ignore the spirit’s input, the Spirit of God no longer shone in Adam’s body and the cells of Adam’s body were no longer quickened, and disease and death of the body set in.

But the body of Jesus was full of glory because in Jesus the glory of the Spirit of God shined in the spirit of Jesus and from the spirit that glory shone through the prism of Jesus’s soul to Jesus’s body, so that Jesus said:

Luke 8:46
And Jesus said, Somebody has touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

God could only have been satisfied in the work of Jesus if Jesus and Adam had had exactly the same opportunity not to sin. So like the first Adam, Jesus a CREATED man and didn’t come through the line of the first Adam (as they supposed):

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her {Mary}, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus was given a body just like the first Adam had, before Adam sinned, in order for it to be fair. And we believers currently DO NOT have a body like that, but WILL RECEIVE one when we receive our glorified body. THEN we shall be like Jesus:

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Jesus was the second Adam.

So in terms of the straight gate, at this point in us believers, we cannot be like Jesus until we receive our glorfied bodies.

But the 10 commandments are not burdensome. Nor is it burdensome to try to love the Lord will all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

These things we can do while we wait for our glorified bodies:

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

With love, Eden

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Eden
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Hi, Kwistina, I only have time today to say, lookk at the dis-eases in the sinful Adamic bodies.

When Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, the Spirit of God had lifted off Adam and Eve's spirits, because now Adam and Eve had decided to run their own body from the soul level and ignore the spirit level altogether.

And God allowed Adam and Eve to experience what it was like to operate the body from the soul level only without input from the spirit level which was God’s original hierarchy: God’s Spirit conveys to man’s spirit, man’s spirit conveys to soul, and soul conveys to body:

1 Thessalonians 5
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve in their rebellion in the garden decided, like Lucifer-Satan before them, to run their own body from the soul level and ignore the spirit to soul to body connection that God had established in the beginning.

And hence, before Jesus came, the spirit of man had become as smoking flax and as a bruised reed:

Isaiah 42:3
A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

After Adam and Eve were expelled from the garden, the Spirit of God no longer shined into their spirit, and the spirit of man lay, as it were, darkened, unused, idle, so that when Jesus came, this spirit of man had to be requickened:

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The Adamic line was sinful and its bodies were without the glory of God shining in their spirits, and so, when we believed in Jesus, this is what happened again:

2 Corinthians 4
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

We are in natural psyke bodies which have only received a downpayment of the Holy Spirit, but we still need to be clothed with our spiritual body:

1 Corintians 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

In order for Jesus to pay for our sins, Jesus could NOT have had a body LIKE OURS because OUR body was a sinfilled Adamic body, dirties and tainted by centuries of soul rule.

But in order for Jesus to pay for the sins of the FIRST ADAM, Jesus had to be JUST LIKE THE FIRST ADAM before the first Adam SINNED. Sinless FIRST Adam versus sinless SECOND Adam.

For this reason, Jesus had a body JUST LIKE the first Adam, still RULED by the Spirit of God speaking into the SPIRIT OF MAN which then spoke to the soul which in turn operated the body on the basis of what THE SPIRIT HAD SAID.

That is the kind of body Jesus had, just like the first Adam before the first Adam sinned. An equal exchange. A first sinless Adam compared to a second sinless Adam. And this contest Jesus won handily.

And because Jesus was just like the first Adam, Jesus could therefore pay the full price for what the first Adam did wrong:

Romans 5
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Jesus was not like us sinful Adamic descendants; only if Jesus was just like the first Adam could Jesus have proven that it was possible to be sinless.

With love, Eden

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Kwistina
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I guess what I'm trying to ask is , what is the difference between sinning where there is not prior sin, and sinning after sin has existed? And how does that make Jesus more like the pre-sin Adam than like the post-sin Adam? In essence, that would also mean that God gave Jesus a body that would never die . . . (naturally)
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Michael Harrison
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quote:
They are not accomplished simultaneously in a single act of faithful belief
That is a curious thing to say. You see, everyone still wants to have a part in doing something to effect their salvation. You participate by having, and walking in the finished work of God. Your believing even, does not cause anything to happen. It accepts that it is, allows it to become real to you. Justification and sanctification is something that He does. It might be two separate things if you had to do it.
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Kwistina
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"yahsway, the body of the first Adam was so overflowed with glory from Adam's spirit that the glory was upon Adam and Eve's bodies as well, much like Moses's face shone after Moses had been with the LORD up on mount Sinai"

Eden: you had me until this. Do you have any scripture references to validate this belief, perhaps? It sounds good and all, but I do not believe it can be accurate. Please, if you can find scriptural proof, that would be most helpful.

Although it does sound appealing for pre-sin Adam to "shine as Moses with the Glory of God", the only difference I can find between the pre/post-sin Adam is that of a limited lifespan. It would make more sense to me that he would have an increased "immunity" to temptation if that were the case. After such an infusion of the spirit, how can one make such a blunder? The truth would have been obvious, the sin a sting to his soul if even a hint of it was mentioned! In other words, when one "scrubs in" for the surgical unit, they are not so quick to be touching unclean things, knowing they are now clean. They are more keenly aware of the things that will make them unclean than they were before, more careful. That is how I see "the glory of God", a sort of "cleansing". Were Adam and Eve thus, well, I just find it hard to believe they could sin so easily!

Is the "previous history of sin" really relevant here? Is it not, instead, the temptation of sin (I realize this is the opposite of what you stated)? In other words (and I am trying my best not to be confusing), you state that Adam did not have to deal with the temptation of previous sin in the world. True . . . but he did have to deal with temptation, did he not? His sin nature was just as strong before the fall as it was after the fall, the difference being that afterwards he was aware of sin-and it's consequence, death (which he could hardly have understood, really!! Death having never existed before), being, in essense, a sort of sin-creator. The scripture can confirm this. The temptation he faced was that of obeying God in reference to that which he was strictly forbidden from eating.

In all other respects, you make incredible clarity and defend scripture admirably. I'm just wondering about this bit-you are the first I have heard describe Adam/Christ in this way.

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yahsway
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Eden, Yeshuas body was glorified after His resurrection, not before.

Yeshua came to earth as a human being. You do know that one of the earliest heresies was that of the Docetists, who taught that the Messiah only apppeared to be ahuman being.

They considered human flesh on too low a plane for so exalted a figure as The Son of God. But we know scripture syas that He was made a little lower than the angels.

This heresy persits explicitly in "theosophy" and in sects based on Eastern religious teachings which speak of "the Christ" as a spiritual entity which, in effect, masqueraded as human but was actually a "far higher being".

It still persists today in a far more widespread fashion in the implicit popular theology of much of the Christian Church, which in emphasizing Yeshua's divinity practically ignores His Humanity and portrays Him as if He floated around the Holy Land several feet off the ground.

John 1:14

The Word became a human being, lterally, "The Word became flesh." It is not that a man named Yeshua, who grew up in Nazereth, one day decided he was God. Rather, the Word, who "was with God" and "was God", gave up the Glory He had with the Father before the world existed. and emptied Himself, in that He took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are.

In other words, God sent His own Son as a human being with a nature like our own. (Romans 8:3) so that in every respect he was tempted just as we are, the only difference being that he did not sin. His human nature was real, but sinless.

In Romans 7:5 Living according to our old nature, lierally, "in the flesh." Greek "sarx" is rendered "old nature" here, at 7:14, 18, 25 and eleven times in ch.8:3-13

The problem with translating "sarx" as "flesh" is that it reinforces the mistaken popular notion that the New Tes. sets up a dualism between the soul and spirit, regarded as higher and better, and the body, regarded as lower and worse.

Is this not what todays reader gathers from KJV's rendering of v.18a, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing'? Celibacy and other ascetic practices found in some Chistian denominations are taken as proof that the New Test. teaches this, even though in reality this teaching comes straight from paganism.

By "flesh" Paul did not mean the physical body alone, BUT all the thoughts, emotions and physical urges that comprise human nature, and especially human nature as found in people before they are saved.

Paul says elswhere "If anyone is united with Messiah, he is a new creation." that is he now has a 2nd , new human nature controlled by the Holy Spirit.

The old nature has died with Yeshua, and by the Power of the Holy Spirit it will stay dead. We owe nothing to it, that we should obey its corrupted misquided passions (Romans 8:1-13)

Instead, as a result of being united with Yeshua, we owe God obedience to His desires and commands. This is how to understand "sarx" in these pasages.

The idea that the spirit is good and the body bad may be Greek or Gnostic, but it is neither Jewish nor Christian.

Yeshua was divinely begotten, but also fully human.

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Eden
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Hi, yahsway. You said:
quote:
Eden, It is true that Jesus was the spotless perfect Lamb of God, but He had a body like our own.

However, Yeshua did not have a sin-nature like we do.

The body itself is not sinful for in the day that God created it, He said it was good. It is not the body that is sinful, but it is our nature which we did inherit from the 1st Adam as He was Disobedient to God.

yahsway, the body of the first Adam was so overflowed with glory from Adam's spirit that the glory was upon Adam and Eve's bodies as well, much like Moses's face shone after Moses had been with the LORD up on mount Sinai:

Exodus 34:29
And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.

Exodus 34:30
And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

Exodus 34:35
And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.

Likewise the sinful body of Moses tried to enter the tent of the congregation when the LORD came upon the tent, and Moses was NOT able to enter:

Exodus 40:35
And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

But the bodies of Adam and Eve had no such problem before Adam and Eve sinned. The Holy Spirit shone from Adam's spirit to Adam's soul and through the prism of the soul the Holy Spirit shone out onto and beyond the confines of their bodies.

After Adam and Eve sinned, the Spirit departed from Adam and Eve's spirit and gradually Adam and Eve and their descendants died sooner and sooner until nowadays the average age is maybe 80 years and we die.

The body that Jesus had, however, did NOT come up out of this deadened, gloryless Adamic line of bodies. Jesus received a body just like the first Adam had BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned:

Matthew 17:2
And he {Jesus} was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

And we also shall one day shine like the sun:

Matthew 13:43
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has ears to hear, let him hear.

So the body that Jesus had was NOT fashioned like the bodies of sinful Adamic men, but Jesus's body was fashioned like the body that the FIRST Adam had.

And indeed, this makes the obedience of Jesus GREATER than the obedience of the first Adam because the first Adam obeyed and then disobeyed when there was NO SIN in the world yet.

But Jesus obeyed and continued to obey EVENTHOUGH their was now SIN IN THE WORLD, a temptation that the fist Adam NEVER had to deal with.

But, to repeat what you said, yahsway:Hi, yahsway. You said:
quote:
Eden, It is true that Jesus was the spotless perfect Lamb of God, but He had a body like our own.

However, Yeshua did not have a sin-nature like we do.

The body itself is not sinful for in the day that God created it, He said it was good. It is not the body that is sinful, but it is our nature which we did inherit from the 1st Adam as He was Disobedient to God.

When the Spirit departed, the body died for lack of quickening Spirit. So the body also suffered, and now, the body CANNOT contain the 100% Spirit that Jesus had, as, in my opinion, stated by Jesus in this parable:

Luke 5
37 And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and then both are preserved.

with love, Eden

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TB125
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Michael,
As long as one's "trusting response" includes the action of one's will beyond that of just receiving and "having" God's forgiving grace, then we understand each other. Justification and sanctification are two separate parts of God's saving and transforming work. They are not accomplished simultaneously in a single act of faithful belief even if it includes the repetition of the converts prayer followed by baptism. Giving birth to a child is totally different from rearing a child. That is true for God as it is for humans. I'm sure that you understand my point. I have no further questions for now. Thanks for your response.

--------------------
Bob

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Michael Harrison
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Well, thank you Bob. Uhm... I don't know why people see this as robotic? Actually, it is blessed. In fact, it is required! In fact, you have your free will to go along with it or not, regardless! But if you do, then... (Well, I'm saving that for my Kingdom Of Heaven post) [spiny]

But before i go: 'A trusting response' is eloquently expressed by you. I concur. In fact, though, regarding your opening statement, this is the only way that His commandments can be kept. I hope this doesn't engender more questions, rather than fewer.

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TB125
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Michael,
Thanks for your answers to my questions. Apparently you don't eliminate completely the necessity to obey Jesus' commandments, but you just minimize its particular nature as a part of one's will and treat it as a part of one's trusting acceptance of God's grace and transforming power as one lives IN CHRIST.

I understand that faith is a gift from God and not something that one does in order to be saved. I also understand that no one can do anything that is holy or even really loving or wise enough to please God apart from the work of the Holy Spirit within him/her. By that I mean that no one can be nice enough, loving enough, or wise enough to earn God's saving forgiveness by his/own efforts, even after he/she has been transformed from a "dead" rebel into a "living" child of God through faith.

I guess that my difference with you in regard to this matter of the role of one's will is that I give more power to it than you apparently do. I do not believe that God created us humans to be robots that He would program to be His servants or stewards or even His children. On the other hand He created us in His image to live and to exist as free creatures in relationships with Him through love and trust that He offers to give to each of us, not through laws and unresistant programmed instincts. I don't approve of your tendency to minimize the importance of the human will as expressed in the necessity for repentance and obedient service since it seems so important to Jesus. He had to die to overcome its rebellous power in God's human creatures.

I hope that I fairly understand your theology of salvation. It really is God's work, but a trusting response from His human creatures is required. Is that fair?

--------------------
Bob

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yahsway
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Eden, It is true that Jesus was the spotless perfect Lamb of God, but He had a body like our own.

However, Yeshua did not have a sin-nature like we do.

The body itself is not sinful for in the day that God created it, He said it was good. It is not the body that is sinful, but it is our nature which we did inherit from the 1st Adam as He was Disobediant to God.

Is53

3 He is despised and rejected by men. Anyone here been despised and rejected?

A Man of sorrows and aquainted with grief. Anyone here ever had sorrows and grief?

To be our Perfect High Priest, Christ Yeshua had to know our griefs by experience.


Remember that while in the garden Adam and eve were naked and were not ashamed. Not until they disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Then God said this: "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil.

And what did the serpant tell eve before she ate of that tree?

"For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

The day that God created man, Adam, He made him in the likeness of God. Now we know God is not flesh but Spirit.

When Adam begot a son, according to Gen ch.5, he was in his (Adam) own likeness.

Now we know that when God created Adam, God did not make Adam a spirit, but created Adam from the dust of the ground, flesh and bones and God breathed into him the Breath of life(Spirit).

When God said "Let Us go down and make man in Our image, according to our likeness", it refers to such qualities as reason, personality, and intellect, and to the capacity to hear, to see, and to speak.

God was their covering before they Knew they were naked from being Disobediant to God and eating of the tree of Knowledge.

This was not simply a body being sinful, but it was their willingness to heed the serpents voice instead of their Makers voice and choosing to do that which they did.

What did God say to the serpent would happen?

" And I will put enmity Between your seed(Ones who follow and heed Satans voice) and her Seed(Yeshua, and those who follow His voice);
He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel. (this depicts the long struggle between good and evil, with God ultimately winning thru Yeshua the Christ, the last Adam).

Yeshua was called the Son of God, and referred to Himself as the Son of Man. He was 100% God and 100% Flesh and bones. But His Blood was 100% God. This blood shed for many was pure, precious.

Matt 4 Then Yeshua was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be Tempted by the devil.

verse 10 Then Yeshua said to him (Satan) "Away with you Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Rather than earthly power, Yeshua affirms exclusive worship of God and His vocation of Humble obedience and suffering. If only Adam and Eve had done this same thing, things would have been much different.

Matt 26:39

He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."

Hebrewa 2:17

Threfore, in ALL things He had to be MADE like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being Tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Back up to verse 9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for th suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

Yeshua was obediant unto death. He was tempted in all areas that we are. What makes Yeshua different from the first Adam is His obediance to God the Father.

Adam disobeyed God by partaking of the fruit which he was told not to, which led to our death.

Yeshua obeyed God by partaking of the fruit He was told to, which led to our life.

You know the Gnostics taught about the body being sinful with its lust ect.. to the point that they forbid men to marry women,they saw women as evil, they forbid men to eat certain foods, ect..

When God made man from the dust of the ground He called His creation good. But man became deginerate after disobeying God. It was thru disobediance that seperated man from God, but it was by obediance of Yeshua that man is redeemed back to God.

Remember the scripture that says Obediance is better than sacrifice.

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Michael Harrison
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To quote myself:
quote:
They settle for intermediates, like their church, the pastors, books.
For example, you read a book on the purpose filled life. You don't purpose. Jesus is purpose. You may have His purpose on your behalf! Have you never heard that God has a plan for your life?

Your spirit is quickened. Your body is sanctified. It is dead because of sin, but it is accomomdated until you go home.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
2. What is the primary role of a person's will after he/she has been given and received God's grace by faith?

The role of a person's will is to yield to God. Grace enables, if the heart believes.

quote:
3. After one has received God's grace, can it ever be removed from from him/her? If so, what would cause God to do this?

I don't think God removes it. You just fail to benefit by it because you willfully resist. You reject it somehow. You are enticed by your own lusts and led astray! (James)

quote:
4. How can anyone know for sure or demonstrate clearly that he/she has been saved, particularly when he/she continues to do some things that have been identified as "sins"?

You know you have been saved. The blood and the Spirit confirm it to you.

1Jn 5:8 "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

I know about 'sins'. Let me be forthcoming here. I am like you, human, and stupidly capable. However, let me draw from Watchman Nee here; les see, "The Breaking of the outward man." The tendency in Christ when you have found the meaning of grace, is to float, not sink. When we are outside of grace, the tendency is to sink, not to float. God provides for us to float (think of Peter walking on the water).

We would look on the positive side if we could assimilate His grace. The meaning of grace is usually lost on us. We think that we know. For example, grace is not an excuse for failing, but the imparted ability not to, if we will receive it.

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[Prayer] Here is a certifiable fact. You don’t understand the understanding unless you first pay the price. People want to look into the perfect law of liberty to have the benefits of God; however, they do not want to pay the price, first. This, my friend is not how it works with God. With Him, you pay the price all the way, first, then you see the blessing. You can struggle to understand for a whole lifetime, yet, if you did not obey the word, you will not have seen it, and likely you will shake your finger at someone trying to get them to obey the word, when you have not yet understood it (maturely).

It is hard to obey the word when you don’t receive it the way it is written. Everybody, everybody rationalizes it to fit their understanding. They reduce it to metaphorical, allegorical, or hypothetical. (Not picking on ya oneinc.) This defeats, grieves the Spirit.

Jesus rode into town on a foal. Jesus, God Himself, washed the very feet of His own creation. Now that is pretty powerful to consider. When someone says something, and you are too ‘above’ it to consider it, you could be missing life itself.

If you take what you know and elevate yourself by it, what is wrong with that? That is a whole sermon.

Alright!
Luk 20:18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

The idea in this verse is that you should fall upon that stone to be broken. For to be broken is to release the sweet aroma of the Alabaster Box. It is not what you accomplish in your knowing. It is how you are known by Him.

(I guess I am a little tired. You want so much to share the blessing.)

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty , and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

People love to pull this up and shove it out, or shake the paper to hear it crinkle, for emphasis, in a discussion on works. But the meaning of these passage depend upon the understanding of doing; doing what? Find out. Mind you, Martin Luther is said to have called this book a scrawny epistle.

But there is a spiritual understanding, that illustrates to one the meaning of doing as He would require it. In such case, in understanding, you will know that you are not a doer, but a doee, which is the proper order in the Kingdom of God. So when you read a passage like this in James:

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

You understand that it is by Him that you know, and are led. Therefore you are aware that your action will be blessed because He is in it. My son, it didn’t come out of the air, as it were. You were however, “following after,” which is your service unto Him. It is the belief that receives, because it knows as it goes. (We’ll talk about how that comes about.)
If you let Him live, as you let Him live, as the sap flows in the vine, things will happen. But as Jesus followed after the Father, you follow after Jesus. What can I say about it? You don’t pump it up. He brings it. You don’t make it up, you hear it. Isn’t that having? Isn’t that humility?
None seem to make the distinction. They are so happy to serve God, they are going to make it up as they go, and tell Him what they did later.
“Well,” He will say, “But did I do it?”
You will say, “Well, you said such and such, and I set about it.”
He will say, “If, as a son of God you were led, then you knew what I would do, and all that you had to do was let me. But if you thought that you could just go out and have at it, you built wood, hay and stubble. Were you listening to me? I may have wanted you to stay home and attend to the children. If you had, then I would have done such and such, and so on, and this would have happened to my glory.”

Alright, changing gears here: Do you have daily things that you may do? Of course. If you have choices, you make them. You do not wait to ‘hear from God’ every time you encounter one. You may know to go out and talk to a homeless person, rather than ignore them, but if your relationship is in order, greater things may happen.

I’m not against doing. I am more for having. Scripture is more for having. Having knows what He will do. When the centurion asked Jesus to heal his servant, He knew what Jesus would do. When anyone asked Jesus, they knew what He would do. What blesses Him in this is the faith; precious trust and expectation of who God actually is and what He would do.

Abraham knew what God would do. He had no illusions, though he was asked to sacrifice his only son. That is pretty awesome.
Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Don’t be bound up. You life is not bound up in doing - then having. It is in having, then doing. There is a proper order here. One is obedience, out of faith, the other is earning, and expecting a result, thinking it is faith. Having is of faith. I mean:
Rom 14:23 for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Doing to have is of works – dead ones. One is born of Spirit, the other of self-will, and flesh, boasting.

Again, all I know to say is that if you don’t pay the price, you don’t see the nice. You will be smug in self-satisfaction in all that you do for the Lord. I wouldn’t want to be there.


More about who is doing the living through you:
Eph 2:5 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)"

We were dead in sins. He has however ‘quickened’ us, which means that He has made us alive, together with Christ, in actual fact - by Christ! Then He goes on, “by grace ye are saved.” This relates to being quickened. You are made alive by grace, which, as I have said before, is Him doing it, whatsoever ‘it’ is that is needed! God does the doing. You do the having, because He is. Not only, you are quickened together with Christ, which is being made together, or one with Him, so that His life is your quickening, by which you are made alive, and kept from sin. Otherwise you are dead (in a manner of speaking, to the fullness and the blessings of God).

Php 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."
For me to live IS Christ, (if..... and not rather to be Christlike) and to die is better!


Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We are created unto good works. ‘Unto’ isn’t self-motivated, for did you create yourself 'unto'?. We are to walk in them by having. We don’t invent them. We have them to walk in by the life who is within.

Eph 6:24 Grace be with all them that love our Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. Amen.

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Eden
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Another thing, becauseHElives, I think you are way undervaluing the body of Jesus.

1 Peter 1:19
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 2:4
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 Peter 2:7
Unto you therefore which believe
he is precious
: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner.

Precious in the Bible means extremely valuable, and it takes a right valuing of the Lord Jesus to be able to appreciate how one man could be the Substitute of all men who ever lived.

His body was made by the overshadowing Holy Spirit implanting a pure, Godly Holy Spirit seed in Mary's womb, a holy seed that DID NOT come up through the Adam and Eve line:

John 3:31
He who comes from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he who comes from heaven is above all.

John 8:23
And he {Jesus} said to them, You are from beneath; I am from above: you are of this world; I am not of this world.

becauseHElives, this proves that Jesus was not like us sinful Adamic men, men of the earth because Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit:

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon you, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow you: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of you shall be called the Son of God.

So Jesus was a 100% man, yes, but He was not like us; Jesus was like the first Adam, before the first Adam sinned. That's why the Bible calls Jesus the second man, and NOT the billionth man.

with love, Eden

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Hi, becauseHElives. You said:
quote:
Eden, Yeshua was 100% God but He was 100% man, Yeshua had all the capabilities of failure in Him that we have in us.
You say that Yeshua was 100% God but He was 100% man.

There IS one huge difference between the man Jesus and us Adamic men. We have a sinful Adamic body, but Jesus got a body just like Adam had BEFORE Adam sinned.

But Jesus isn’t called the billionth man, Jesus is called the second man in the Bible because Jesus is the second Adam:

1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Yes, Jesus was 100% man, but in the tradition of the first Adam before the first Adam sinned. It is therefore an error to assume that Jesus is a man like us. We are already sinful and have a sinful Adamic body. Jesus had a perfect, sinless body like the first Adam had before the first Adam sinned:

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Hebrews 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Do you see the difference, becauseHElives?

With love in Him, Eden

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Ok! I'll be back, but first:

quote:
Who is the source for your theological perspective on salvation? What are the references for your principles?

That is a curious question! I'll save it for last. I will say this though, there is only one source. There are many disputes, all of which involve doing what He doesn't ask one to do. If you want to drive to the mountain, to the pinnacle to see the view, you don't stop at the overlook that is halfway there and say, i was at the pinnacle. At least one being will know that it is not so, if all the others you tell are fooled.

We will take note of this, that He said we would be Kings and Priests in the new dispensation. That would make the everyday believer to experience the experience of Moses. Because He Lives. Because He is love.

Everybody who messes up, does so because they do not go to the source. They settle for intermediates, like their church, the pastors, books. Even scripture isn't clear to them because they "lean to their own understanding," and/or those others, rather than Christ. Don't take my word for it. I am not the source, but i know what you will find out if you make it to the source.

and it is soul shaking, and frightening to consider what people settle for, short of the source. He has a name - Jesus! BECAUSE HE LIVES! Amen.

There is one person who is salvation. Don't relegate Him to light-years away in distance by not recognizing His everpresent power to save and deliver. He does not expect you to deliver yourself.

Should you have a problem with this, lemme ask, did Paul go to the Source? Think perhaps maybe that is why he spoke as he did? Though it is somewhat unintelligable, Paul said:
"1Co 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
What he meant was, not to be followers of Paul, per sey, but to do as he did, to do similiarly, that one should have the same results, and all, would be in the same camp, in the Ark, properly.

Indeed, one can not expect of God unless they:
"Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
That's very personal to everyone.

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TB125
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Michael,
I've read most of your posts on this subject, but I have several questions that may help me to understand your theology.

1. Who is the source for your theological perspective on salvation? What are the references for your principles?

2. What is the primary role of a person's will after he/she has been given and received God's grace by faith?

3. After one has received God's grace, can it ever be removed from from him/her? If so, what would cause God to do this?

4. How can anyone know for sure or demonstrate clearly that he/she has been saved, particularly when he/she continues to do some things that have been identified as "sins"?

I'll be interested in your specific answers to these questions. Depending on your answers, I may have others.

--------------------
Bob

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Michael Harrison
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[Eek!] [updown] [Wink] [Razz]


As I think of them, I will have to re-clear-up some things up that I have said. Whatever I say is usually heard the way the hearer wants to hear it. Oh dismay. The same is reflected in the responses. How sad that we read God’s word the very, very same way; not as before Him, but as before men do we read. If men were all we had to impress, some of us would surely thrill someone, but read it before Him and see how you fare.

I never said, once again for the record (this must be said), hat there are no works, though I am accused of saying that very explicit thing, among other things. What I said, for clarity is, once more is:
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


The following typifies my pleadings throughout this thread:

Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.
Gal 4:18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
Gal 4:19 [However] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ [finally] be formed in you,
Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


Paul was seeking for Christ to be formed in them by faith; for that is the only way that it happens, and not in process either, but by sanctification. If you look at the context of these passages alone, within Galatians, you will see that those people troubled him deeply by not realizing their deepest relationship, verse 20, which they were called to, and which Paul tirelessly, perhaps futilely expounded upon. In fact, they were drawn to listening to others, verse 4:17, and shutting out Paul. “Yea, they zealously affect you,” said Paul, but wrongly he would say.

Indeed. They got pumped up by the rousing, animated and motivational preachers, that were spectacular orators. They were not getting the truth of the Spirit the way Jesus wanted them to though. Paul was the chosen vessel. But in social club setting, they patted each other on the back, shaking their heads, pleased with themselves, saying,
“Hey! Yea, we’re getting this aren’t we? Let’s tell someone else. Is it not good to be here! Hey look. There’s Paul. I wonder what he wants?”

Paul was looking at his feet, pleading in his spirit with the Lord, sort of under his breath. “They don’t have a clue Lord. And they won’t listen. I mean, they know better the moment that I speak, than what I am saying, even though it is your truth. They won’t open up to you that you may be formed in them. They are too enamored with the side-trackers, fast-talkers (who are nevertheless yours, but errant in fact regarding the faith). They are so proud of themselves, not understanding that I am telling them the straight truth, of the easiest, and the best, and the most terrific, the blessed! How, oh Lord, do you get their attention to this?” Then he refers back to the false message that they were so giddy over, the one about ‘doing’, which is what the law represents wholly, (notice distinctly that I did not say Holy, which the law, the ‘doing’ thereof , (which represents attaining by trying) could not make them - Holy).

Is Holiness being set apart? O.K. but how? By what? Moldy bread is set apart. I do not think that it is in a good way. So, as moldy bread, you cannot just say that you are set apart and be satisfied. He does not want moldy bread. So, it comes back to, how are you set apart, by what mechanism? Something has to affect you to become different, in a good way, pleasing to Him, then you are set apart ; and it is not something you do, but something you believe in (that He has done, and is doing, that delivers you to Him) that thereby, i.e. believing in, you may have. You see, He is trying to save you from trying to do it by trying! Tell me you can, I’ll tell you you can’t. Tell me you can’t, and therefore must abide in sin, making excuses, I’ll tell you you are wrong.

What is Holy?
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

You cannot say in the same breath that you can abide in sin, accept defeat, and your not being set apart, as He is, and say " to be pure as He is pure," at the same time.

When He shall appear, we shall realize ourselves to be like Him, by comparison, upon seeing Him as He is, because while here, we, through faith, have purified ourselves even as He is pure. He has provided that we would not be ashamed when He appears, like, caught off guard to be seen by Him. Isn’t that what that says? If we are ‘becoming’, then we are short of that goal. How will we look to Him if we are ‘becoming’, and He appears? Is there such a thing as almost there, almost pure? You are, or you are not. What do we say in that day, “Lord, hey! I was becoming – take me, take me? I’m over here. I’m becoming. I’m the one,” while you jump up and down, waving a handkerchief for attention.

He was (but is) manifested to take away our sins (verse 5), so whosoever abideth in Him, sinneth not, because(verse 6), He takes away our sins, as we abideth, by nature of abiding. If we abideth not in Him, it is through unbelief, and we abide in sin, particularly the notion of becoming, which says that He didn’t finish the job, and we have to miserably help, even though we can't.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And He says that we don’t have to transgress the law! Yet it is not through any ability of our own. As we abide in Him, if we know what it means to abide in Him, He delivers us, and we walk as He walked, fellowshipping one with another (Jesus and thee). This is not metaphor, simile, or whatever. If you pass it off as that, ye do sin, and it will be with you. If you teach another, well…..

So you see, the straight gate is Jesus. With the emphasis on the word gate, when we are born again, that is when we enter the gate – Jesus. The narrow way that follows, if we can find it, is to abide in Him; that is, to know what it means to abide in Him. It is so narrow, it restricts you from doing, down to having, as He provides for you to walk in it: His provision.

If you are a family, and you are in the park; well, let’s say that there is an argument, and you tell your daughter to go sit in the car, but she goes and leans up against the car, with an attitude, no less. Is she abiding in the car? She is abiding without! Needless to say, if all are ready to leave, and she is abiding without, she isn’t going to get anywhere. Christianity is like that. Christ is like that! Walking on her own will not get her as far as she needs to go. Abiding in the car will, and she doesn’t even have to drive.

IF you are abiding without, and debating it, it is like you are not getting your lamps full. We know what that means.

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becauseHElives
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Eden Yeshua was 100% God but He was 100% man, Yeshua had all the capabilities of failure in Him that we have in us. That is why He can be our Savior. He was tempted in all points as all mankind are tempted, if Yeshua could not have failed when tempted, the temptation has no meaning to any human.

Eden you can never get the right interpretation of scripture if you don’t take the scripture in context.

You quoted….to support your idea that the Born Again, New Creation, Holy Ghost filled believer can not expect to be just like Jesus/Yeshua….can not expect to live a completely victorious life in Christ.

quote:
Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would like to do.

But the next verse Galatians 5:18 says….

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

read that and let it sink in....

they that are Christ have crucified the flesh with the affections and lust!!!!!

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul deals with this same issue in …..

Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Eden
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becauseHElives asked "Eden, why do you believe this statement?"

We will never attain and cannot attain in these sinful AdamandEve bodies what Jesus attained because Jesus was born in a 100% Holy Spirit body and not in a body that has come through the sinful Adamic line. No Adamic man can attain to the holiness or set apartness that Jesus was able to attain.

In the parable of the old wineskin and the new wineskin, Jesus makes it clear that our sin-accustomed Adamic bodies would burst like an old wineskin if new wine was put into it, and to me that means that if God were to put 100% Holy Spirit in us, our Adamic bodies would burst and we would die.

That's why we have to wait for our new, glorified bodies, which will be bodies just like Jesus had and that glorified, Holy Spirit body WILL be able to contain 100% Spirit.

God does say to us, Look, be holy or set apart from the world like I am set apart, because God is not going to lower His Perfect Standard of holiness to accommodate us. But God also knows that it takes a body like Jesus had before we humans can attain to His Perfect Standard.

Isaiah 65:24
And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

But right now we are still waiting for our glorified bodies:

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

God does want us to make an effort to be "in the world but not be of this world"; but that is a process and effect of sanctification, not of salvation. Salvation is attained this way:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

I do think however, as oneinchrist said, that we have to actively and consciously have our faith in the blood of Jesus unto death or the rapture, whichever comes first.

There seems to be a Bible indication that God will determine whether we in fact had a "living" faith by whether we end up doing some work because faith without works is dead or is as "no faith".

So what works are these? Are these works of behavior that we were able to change after we first believed in the substitutionary blood of Jesus?

Or are these works the work we do on behalf of the kingdom of God after we are saved?

I tend to think from scripture that the works are what we do to help preach and teach the coming kingdom of God.

And to be sure, if we have a living, continuous faith in the blood of Jesus, we will most likely also end up reading the Word of God where we can learn how to behave in the Family of God. But when it comes to behavior, God knows that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

Thus far only the Son of God was 100% holy and we will be too once we receive our glorified body. But Adamic bodies cannot contain 100% Holy Spirit at this time.

In this current dispensation, inside believers a struggle occurs between the Spirit and the flesh:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would like to do.

with love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi guys,
the other thing that comes to mind that really seems to have a spill over effect on the way that individuals view salvation is the doctrine of "depravity".....which I believe has "extremism" when swallowed whole. I wholeheartedly agree that a man cannot save himself apart from Christ....but I certainly do not believe that man is so helpless and or sinful that he is unable to be cognizant of Gods word and have the ability to respond.
Adam and Eve were fully aware of Gods command to them, and in fact, it was their feeling of shame that bore witness to that awareness. No one had to tell Adam and Eve that they did wrong.
I have seen where this extreme view has also also forced its proponents to have to try and prove that God must have caused sin....showing the leak in the intregrity of such a belief.

This doctrine of depravity is at enmity with the thought of responsibility and accountability in the faith. This doctrine also lends to the devils deception that a man could live virtually any sort of life that he desires, as long as he is covered in the blood of Jesus.......here is where I believe that the danger really comes in. I am not surprised that the message of repentance is not as strong when a doctrine such as this permeates the churches. Any sort of doctrine that would result in more passive attitudes towards sin, and less emphasis on pursuing Holy living, is false doctrine. The individuals that were added to the church in the book of Acts were not called disciples for no reason.

I will take a stab at the element that will cause many to come short of "saving faith". It is " putting on the will to do His will". How could anyone possibly be dooped into thinking that they could have salvation by a one-time experience, but the rest of their lives they never commit to doing the will of God?
Please do not come to me and say, its not within man's ability to will to do Gods will, because then I will tell you that you surely then do not believe in the ability of Gods love in Christ to be the driving force.
When we will to do Gods will, we will be aided by Gods spirit to accomplish the things that would not be possible without him......but along the way while we wait on the Lords work to come to fruition we are to commit to obeying the revealed will of God in the scriptures. I personally know people who are professing christians that are presently living in adultery. No one can convince me that they cannot turn back to God and come out of their sin unless they receive some extra dose of faith from God. The truth is that they like thier sin and they refuse to repent. Please do not assume that I feel that I am just a Holier than thou. I just wanted to use the above example to show that there could be a big danger in not understanding that there is responsiblity and accountability in the faith. There would not be warnings in scripture if it were not so.
If I choose not to forgive someone, I cannot reason within myself that I am covered in the blood of Jesus, but I am to forgive if I expect to be forgiven. Jesus stated it. That makes it so.

Putting on the will to do God's will is what will open up the channel for the Holy spirit to begin its active work in our lives. This will lead to the prompting for the necessary obedience to accomplish His will. Try and convince me that this was not the mind-set of the disciples before Pentecost.
Another reason why I believe that this is so important is so that we do not copy others to feel in the groove, but that we are uniquely molded into what God desires and that our obedience follows suit.

So when Jesus states that it is only the ones who do the will of God that will enter Heaven, I believe that our response needs to be "putting on the will to do His will". Notice I didnt say "put on the desire to do his will"....for I believe that stronger desire comes through time, but the will to do His will is a conscious decision that we can make in a moment in time.

With love in Christ, Daniel

I have to make dinner now. Talk later.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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becauseHElives
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Very good point Daniel, the false teachers of a false gospel and another Jesus view salvation as and instant one time act on the believers part but there are too many scriptures that demand a different conclusion, nature itself demand a different conclusion!

The one you sited “those that endure to the end shall be saved” can be taken no other way in context of scripture.

Another is the one we are discussing…”the straight gate and the narrow way”

The Apostle Paul talked about “until Christ be formed in you”…this is like the seed of man (seed of Yahweh and the egg of a woman (the heart of a man or woman) coming together. There is nothing instant in the creation of life; it is develop over a period of time.

“Doth not even nature itself teach you” think about Paul’s word, there is more there than the subject being discussed. If you have Spiritual ears to hear.

There is no child formed outside of the womb in nature as Yahweh has created it.

Instant life does not exist in the animal world, the insect world, the amphibian world, the fowl world or human world.

People are worried about the abortion issue of this world but completely ignorant of the abortions that take place everyday in Church because the Church isn’t travailing, still birth are taking place, miscarriages are taking place all because of false teachers and preacher in the Pulpits of the Church.

____________________________________________________________-__
Eden, Does being lost cause Yahweh to expect any less of you than He expects of a person washed in the Blood?

The fall in no way diminished Yahweh’s claim on mankind or His right to expect obedience of mankind.

The phrase “be ye Holy as I am Holy”…means simply be ye separate, other than this world as I am separate, other than this world”.

Without this Holiness (separation, otherness than the world no person shall see Yahweh. … Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=holiness&version1=9&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no

Read the scriptures on the link given above and every where you read holiness substitute separation, otherness to this world.


Has not Yahweh’s Grace made us more than conquers?

Did not Yeshua’s death, burial and resurrection set free the New Creation from the bonds of sin?

Eden why do you believe this statement?

quote:
Eden,
but we will never attain and cannot attain in these sinful AdamandEve bodies what Jesus attained and was because Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit and not of the Adamic spirit. No man can attain that the holiness or set apartness that Jesus was able to attain.

Did not Yeshua say … John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Amplified Bible

I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, if anyone steadfastly believes in Me, he will himself be able to do the things that I do; and he will do even greater things than these, because I go to the Father.

Eden will you expect out of yourself what Yeshua expects or will you agree with the false teachers of the apostate church.

Eden are you so limiting the Holy One Of Israel as not to expect out of yourself what Yahweh expect of you?

Psalm 78:41
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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oneinchrist
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Hi guys,
I wonder if there is confusion and disagreement over certain issues in scripture by virtue of the fact that some view salvation more as a process while others view it more as a single event.

By Jesus words "He that endures to the end shall be saved", I am more convinced that salvation is a process... a process whereby repentance isn't only one time, but needs to be lifelong, and our confession is not a one-time confession, but a lifelong confession..... and a process of remaining stedfast in the faith despite all opposition.
If Jesus said "he that is saved shall endure to the end, then I would be more prone to believe that salvation is more of a single event than a process.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Hi, becauseHElives, you said to Eden:
quote:
How would you describe or define what "be you Holy as I am Holy"... looks like in a believer's life?
First I would say that it is impossible to be or become holy as He is holy until I FIRST GET SAVED.

Once I am saved, I qualify for access to the counsel of the Holy Spirit, and if I read the Word of God, then I can work on “be holy even as I am holy”. So in any case, salvation comes first. Sometimes I get the impression that you, becauseHElives, want people to become or be “holy before they are saved because He is holy”, and that is impossible.

But beyond that, I would venture to say that such a life as you propose has never been lived by anyone on earth except by Jesus the Son of God.

The Apostle Paul therefore says in Galatians 2:20, “It is no longer I, but Christ”. God makes it quite clear in His Word that in all His dealings with us He works by taking us out of the way and substituting Christ in our place.

The Son of God died instead of us for our forgiveness and the Son of God lives instead of us for our daily deliverance. So we can actually speak of two substitutions—one Substitute on the Cross who secured our forgiveness and one Substitute within us who through the Holy Spirit secures our victory.

The first four-and-a-half chapters from Romans 1:1 to 5:11 repeatedly uses the plural word sins while the second three-and-a-half chapters from 5:12 to 8:39 repeatedly uses the singular word sin, which refers to the sin principle within Adam and Eve.

Jesus died for my sins on the cross, and that is the first Substitution. Then Jesus also rose again so that He could be my second Substitution, namely to come live in my spirit so that the Spirit can lust against my flesh while my flesh lusts against my spirit and the Spirit.

But to think for one second that this sin-accustomed AdamandEve body is capable of living the holy set-apart life that the Son of God lived on earth, that cannot happen until the redemption of our bodies, namely when we receive our glorified bodies. Only then shall we be like Jesus was and is.

Jesus died for our sins, and Jesus works through the Spirit to make us more holy because He is holy. To be holy means to be set apart, in this case to be set apart unto God. With the help of the Word of God and with the help of the cleansing of the conscience and with the help of Jesus counseling us through the Holy Spirit we may set ourselves apart unto God to the extent that each believer can and wants to, but we will never attain and cannot attain in these sinful AdamandEve bodies what Jesus attained and was because Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit and not of the Adamic spirit. No man can attain that the holiness or set apartness that Jesus was able to attain.

Salvation must come first, and then we can learn what it means to be set more apart unto God, according to each believer’s several ability, which is also called sanctification or the process of being set apart, and also has to do with rewards as an incentive or wage to be more set apart. But we can never be like Jesus was until we receive our glorified bodies.

So becauseHElives, to repeat what you said to Eden:
quote:
{Eden} how would you describe or define what "be you Holy as I am Holy"... looks like in a believer's life?
I think "be you Holy as I am Holy" will look like a mix of spirit and flesh in a believer's life, while in the unbeliever's life "be you holy like I am Holy" looks only like flesh because in the unbeliever flesh has not been mixed with spirit like in the believer.

Only Jesus was ALL spirit and no flesh thus far. Believers are now a mix of spirit and flesh until the believers receive their glorified bodies, at which time the believers will also have a body that is capable of being 100% Spirit and no flesh. But not yet now; only at redemption of the body which redemption is yet to come.

with love, Eden

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oneinchrist
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Hi again lonlesol,
There is one more thing that I would like to add that I do believe to be an important thing in your circumstances. Despite the fact that the other parent may have this negative influence on your children, resist the temptation to bad-talk that parent. That will get you no where fast and it certainly is not Gods will. We are more profiteable to elevate Christ, than to make assaults on the adversary. Let me give you a little example of what I mean by that. If you are witnessing to a Muslim, you are better off showing them that if Jesus was lying about who He said He was then why would God have annointed Him from on High?...than to say....well, you know that Muhammed is only a man and he led an ungodly life.
There was a time that I was having great difficulty with my son and I knew that in many ways his mother was speaking through him right to me with her bitterness and dis-respect. It came to a quick halt when I realized that there was a way that I could bring to naught some of the tension, but it took me to have the nerve to speak well of his mom. This is what I told my son......."Brandon, I want you to realize something....you would not be here right now on this earth if your mother(my Ex) and I had not decided to go together. Now you are here and you are being given one of the greatest opportunities of all-time (then I pointed to the picture of the last supper on our wall) ...that is to be able to one day to be in Heaven with that man in the middle of the table. So trust me that I am looking out for your best interest, and respect me for having the responsiblity that I have to God, and that is to take good care of you." END

I am only trying to express a concept here lonlesol...not tell you what you should tell your children....it is to use your speech carefully by not bad-talking (Im not assuming that you are, but it is an easy temptation) and to seek for ways to bring a together feeling despite the divisions.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Michael,
Thank you for the kind words. What has really kept me going in the faith is really being convinced of Gods awesome love, which is found in Jesus.....and the encouragement that has come from brothers and sisters in the Lord who really seem to care.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Michael Harrison
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That was beautiful and kind Daniel.

And thank you each that you have indicated need or desire, or condition for prayer. In any case, i pray. I am touching Him, and my prayer for you is that you will feel His touch that you may be encouraged, and Daniel, that his mother may believe. Jesus! Love. His tears! Amen.

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oneinchrist
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Hi Lonlesol,
I hear your desperation for answers from God. I firmly believe that God hears your cry. I would like to offer you the best advice that I believe that I can. First of all, please do not lose trust in God's faithfullness. I have also gone through some very scary times of doubt in my faith.....but the times where God really helped me with the fears and doubts were when I took all of my emotions and feeling directly to him in prayer. Lonlesol there is nothing wrong with telling God that you want to believe in Him, but that you just need his help......this is not tempting God, this is asking Him how to deal with the fears and doubts that seem to overwhelm you. Let me tell you what happened when my journey began with Christ in early 1995.

I was in my kitchen doing dishes pondering the things of God. It was then it seemed that my mind was trying to overule my heart by saying "what if there is no Jesus?...what if its all a lie?" My heart started to race as it caused me fear to think that way. I quickly ran into my pantry crouched down and said "Help me, Lord, please help me!" That very moment my mind pictured me sinking in the water(like Peter) and Jesus reaching out His hand to me to lift me up....it was then that peace was restored to my heart, and my fears and doubts subsided. I saw a picture of Jesus in the "mind" of my heart and I pictured Him looking upon me with compassion the same way that He must of looked at Peter when Peter cried out "Lord, save me".

Lonlesol, what am I trying to tell you here. I want you to refine your focus. When you are at your end, go somewhere in secret where you and God can be alone, and call out to Jesus, our loving and compassionate Lord and Savior.....and God will honor and hear your prayer because you go to His Son for the help.

Yes, Lonlesol I have personally experienced the same thing in my life. My Son Brandon's mother is a non-believer. In my personal opinion the influence that I have been able to have on my son, despite the opposition goes right back to having this personal time with God alone where I bring my needs before Him. God desires to give us discernment, which helps us combat the enemy of fear and doubt. This comes by His spirit that helps and guides us....but once again this help is given when our faith is directed to the proper source....Jesus Christ. You may get all kinds of answers on how others have dealt with thier children in the past, but God knows what specific areas of life that need to be adressed in your children in order to point them to Christ. With your desire to see your children saved , and Gods desire to have your children in His Kingdom you are on your way to receiving from God the necessary weapons of warefare to bring down the enemies tactics. Through prayer to Jesus, I believe that God will give you the strength to express the love that witnesses of God's presence in your life.


With love in Christ, Daniel

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becauseHElives
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Eden, the scriptures says "be you Holy as I am Holy"...

Eden Yeshua is the Straight Gate, He is also the Narrow Path, many seek but few truly find His life...

People find religion, Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Church of Christ, Church of God, Assembly of God and other Christian organization but they don’t find Yeshua.

The so called Church that must see today in America is full of dead men and women going through the motions of religious life!

People don’t take His yoke upon them and learn of Yeshua, they learn about what some organization teaches about Yeshua.

Yeshua is the embodiment of holiness

How would you describe or define what "be you Holy as I am Holy"... looks like in a believer's life?

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Hi, becauseHElives, you said:
quote:
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. [14] For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
Jesus Himself said he entered by this door {i.e., by the gate} of the sheepfold:

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say to you, He who enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he who enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out.

Now, it says that the shepherd enters in and the shepherd leads the sheep OUT, not IN.

You said in your post above that the narrow gate is holiness, or holy behavior. That would imply that Jesus is NOT the narrow gate.

On the other hand, in life there are many gods that we can choose from to be our god, and so why could it not be said that finding Jesus as the right and correct God among all the gods is finding the narrow gate that leads to eternal life and "few there be that find it"? It doesn't say "few there be who DO it", but "few there be who find it"?

And Jesus said,
quote:
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

That seems to say that Jesus is the door or the narrow gate, does it not?

We do NOT enter by Buddha and we do NOT enter by Mohammed and we do NOT enter by (fill in the blank), but we can ONLY enter by Jesus who is therefore the door or the narrow gate and few there be that find it.

And indeed, this is what happens to the ones who DO NOT find it:

Matthew 7:13
Enter you in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.

Why do many go in thereat? Because of their holiness or set-apartness? No. Because they were not able to find the narrow gate which is Jesus, for "few there be that find it".

The narrow gate has to do with FINDING JESUS, not with what you said, becauseHELives, namely, that the narrow gate is about holiness, or about holy behavior.

Holy behavior is something that believers acquire AFTER THEY ARE SAFELY INSIDE the narrow gate where, with the help of the Holy Spirit and with the help of the Word of God and with the help of fellow believers, we learn more about Godly behavior.

But Jesus seems to be the narrow gate that people have a hard time finding among all the choices of gods. "I am the door of the sheep".

Proverbs 8:35
For whoso finds Me finds life, and shall obtain favor of the LORD.

with love, Eden

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lonlesol
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quote:
to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you must become as a child to benefit. You must have childlike trust in the reality of Him, and active, selective reality of Him.
Everyone may have to become themselves as a child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven but when a child has been manipulated by an unbelieving parent by saying and insisting that believing in God is nonsense and stupid to the point that the child no longer believes in Him, then the trust in the reality of Him has completely been destroyed by that missleading parent...

Has anyone ever faced that dilemna with their own children???...I have and it sure isn't easy to see the result of this!...I am desperately seeking for solutions...does anyone hear me out there!?!?!?...


 -


This thread will probably die...it seems to happen every time I post in one!... [Frown]

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Michael Harrison
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I love everyone here, no matter if they are agitated towards me, but i love you really well free! God bless you.

quote:
Let us not forget that each of us must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. In the meantime, let us walk in love for one another, thanking Him always for what He has done for us.

Nicely said, of course!

TB! Nice Try. Even if the F Stop at 16, there is only focus from a given point in front of you to infinity. So something remains out of focus regardless, even if more is in. Nevertheless, the point is, that there is a focal point wherein something wonderful happens to the image in the case of a narrow depth of field especially! Most don't know how or where to focus to accomplish a crisp picture of the subject, which is not distracted by a similarly crisp, and therefore menacingly distracting background. Shall i talk about composing?

Anyway, I am excited about this. Thank you so much for the way you worded the active, selective discourse.

quote:
which is given to him/her and not earned by any of his/her works of obedience, that it eventually drops him/her off into heaven without him/her having anything to do during the process of his/her santification. Such a doctrine would eliminate any personal consequences for free will and make salvation completely the active work and selection of God for every individual. That would be a position of extreme Calvinism.

The more I look at it, the more I can’t get away from it, your saying about it being the active and selective work of God. Yes. It is the active and selective work of God by His life, and your getting out of the way. Otherwise He is far, far removed from you, making it impersonal.

It is the selective work of God by the yielding of your will to His, believing that He will select, even by such means as His peace legislating your steps for you. By this means He can work His will. This in turn means that it is active, and selective, according to: “Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven,” Thy life is worthy. Amen. Worthy is the Lamb who was slain. For He is actively selecting your path by leading:

“Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path,” for Jesus is the word of God, your lamp. Therefore the Living Word is actively selecting.

Let us not leave out of that mix, we still have choices not only between good and evil, but sometimes between good, and good. He is greater than our choices whatever we choose. What good is relationship otherwise?

If you look at the Bible, all the examples are of relationships, God and man. Those people had a relationship. There was an active and selective work in their personal lives by way of relationship, in the way that they moved, and in how and what they obeyed. They didn’t do all of this out of a vacuum supposing to ‘do’ something for Him, but by His active/selective.


That leads me to one who said in this very thread, that this Jesus coming into your heart talk is overrated.

If Jesus doesn’t come into your heart and save you, and change you, deliver you and so on, then you are saved by self election. You have merely raised your hand as if to be counted and for having said, “Count me in Lord. I see this story and believe that it is true. I want you to recognize me because I know a good thing when I see it. ”

That isn’t how it works. The heart must believe unto Jesus, not the story about Him. You might as well be a Mormon otherwise. They believe in self election. They think that there will eventually be enough of them who identify with what they believe, that the Kingdom will come by virtue of their believing numbers (or is that Jehova’s Witnesses?) Jesus doesn’t come into their heart. They are self elected by the fact that they think that they are going to multiply like rabbits until the world is overcome. They think that God identifies with them. They have faith in a story, not a living being.
Without the active and selective, which occurs whenever you know what it is to untie His hands, by dying so that He can live, you don’t have a relationsip. What you have is imaginary, and wishful thinking. A lust to contribute. A bonus points program. Doing for credit. Dead works. It will be burned up. It doesn’t exist. It is meaningless. I mean good, not harm.

I’m liking it more and more every time I read this. It doesn’t eliminate free will. It means that you are willing for His will to be exercised. This is how it is supposed to work.

The Kingdom of Heaven is not future tense. Make no mistake about it: The Kingdom of Heaven cometh not with observation. It is within you. So, if it is in you, then you are in it by subjective will. Yours to His. Therefore, to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, you must become as a child to benefit. You must have childlike trust in the reality of Him, and active, selective reality of Him.

The point is, without the works of obedience, to believe, you cannot enter in, and you are in the outer court, if you are in the court at all.
You know, it has nothing to do with Calvinism. It has to do with seeking, finding and believing, receiving. You must go directly to the King, not to something even, about Him. Believe me, if you are going to let Him have control of your life, you’ll have to believe that He Himself is directly involved in it, not sitting up in Heaven waiting for the results to come in. It’s a living relationship. If you don’t have that I feel sorry for whoever.

Here is something that will help get you on your way. If you are one of these people who got saved and you stopped there; if you have a problem with the baptism of love, that is the baptismal event of the promised comforter, which is Pentecost, then I don’t know if you can be helped a great deal. The reason that He is the comforter, is that HE comforts you with the Knowledge of Him, and awareness of His presence, that He is real, not just some hope testified to by some words that you will realize in the future. Hence the name comforter, which is practically a feeling, only better. This is a reward for inviting Him in. It is a reward for faith believing. That is what He asked everyone that He healed, “do you believe.” Upon believing, then they received. They chose to believe because they knew He would. They were not going to pass it up.

I don’t know about Calvin. Maybe he settled for less, if I am considered extreme. I feel badly for him now.

It isn’t whether you have your doctrine right, but rather if you have your relationship right.

Peace Joy Love in the Holy Ghost.

Mel Tari wrote a book, "America, Jesus is here!" Jesus is here, and i love Him. Did i say?

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freeinchrist
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part 2...i should say the " having " VS " doing " thread...nothing against the narrow gate thread... love reading that too... so maybe have a thread with just the having and doing ... [Smile]
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freeinchrist
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just a short note from me... i think this subject is one of great importants. of great interest to me personally. i read this topic / thread over and over again. keep this going until it runs its course,whenever that is. thank-you...james
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TB125
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Michael,
In your post on Nov 21st you sought to make a point with a reference to a single lens reflex camera and one's point of focus. Here is your reference and a question for us critics:
quote:
If you remember the days of the SLR Cameras, you will be familiar with focusing a lens. If you focus beyond, or in front of what you are wanting to represent as the subject, the out of focus subject becomes blurred. The Christian faith is like that. If you focus short of the intended, you get an un-discernable picture in yourself. It has nice color, but what does it mean?
As a former professional photographer, I would note that you have failed to take into consideration the operation of a single lense reflex camera that creates a "depth of field" that gives a sharp focus to more than the "subject" in accord with the appropriate settings for the f-stop number on the lens and the focal length of the lens.

This means that the "Christian faith" cannot be clearly understood if one focuses only on what one has been given by God through his grace in Jesus Christ. The factor of "works", obedience, faithful stewardship and service must also be seen as being clearly within the picture of the Christian faith. This is what some of us have been trying to teach you.

It is well to try to emphasize the importance of the beliver's fuller surrender to Jesus, but no one of us can reach the level of surrender where we no longer have to "press on" to fulfill God's calling.

This point regarding the necessity for "works", for acts of obedience, for faithful stewardship and service as a part of one's walk of faith is too clearly presented by too many of Jesus' parables to be ignored or seen as being "out of focus".

I will briefly call your attention to these parables, which each focus on this matter:

1. What the master asked three of his servants to do with the "talents" that he entrusted to them, and why one was "worthless"; Mt 25:19-30.

2. A "shepherds" separation of "sheep" and "goats" in regard to what they did in respect to those in need; Mt 25:31-46.

3. Why one of ten servants who each received a "mina" had it taken away from him when he didn't invest it; Lk 19:11-27.

4. Why five virgins who had lamps and some oil were denied admittance into the "grooms" wedding feast when they weren't ready when he appeared; Mt 25:1-13.

5. Why a servant was judged to be "wicked" when he didn't obey the instructions of his master; Mt 24:44-51.

I think that the points of focus for these parables are very clear. They mean that you have not considered the full "depth of field" for your picture of the Christian faith. I would encourage you to reconsider your position.

--------------------
Bob

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