|
Author
|
Topic: THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL?
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
The Greek manuscript says Eze is mistaken.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
ThenG1899 we who are aliveG2198 and remainG4035 will be caughtG726 up togetherG260 with them in the cloudsG3507 to meetG529 the LordG2962 in the airG109, and soG3779 we shall alwaysG3842 be with the LordG2962.
Cloud
G3507
Used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness
Air
G109
1) The air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
2) The atmospheric region
 ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Clouds-great number of witnesses (not rain clouds)
Air- transformed spiritual bodies (not atmosphere)
Trust in the Blood of Christ,not some fantasy rapture ready herecy!
IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Jesus will come in the clouds and we will meet Him there. 7 years later He will return for the Second Coming with the Church on white horses behind Him.
Jesus will not have us meet Him in the clouds only to keep coming down. That makes no sense at all.
The tribulation is NOT FOR THE CHURCH. The Groom does not pour His bowls of wrath on the Bride.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
John 14:1 - 4 (NASB)
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2“In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going.”
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365
|
posted
Hi Betty,
Christ does not come so far and then do a U turn. Once He sets out to come we go to meet Him, but He keeps coming until he arrives.
Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
I am Rapture Ready and not ashamed of being so.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Poor Eze. Now you're upset because they didn't have cars or planes 2000 years ago.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
So, who's hiding?
"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.
I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.
The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html
The Blessed Hope of the True Church is the Second Coming of our Lord and Saviour,Jesus Christ.
Where in the Scriptures does it say anything about cars wrecking,planes falling,and missing people reports? LOL...Those pre-trib rapture writers and movie makers sure do mess up there followers heads.
But fear and or ear tickling does sell.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
So, who's hiding?
"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.
I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.
The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
I'll take that as a "No".
quote:
Revelation means to reveal
Actually, the word is Apokalupsis and it means
laying bear, making naked
a disclosure of truth, instruction
concerning things before unknown
used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
manifestation, appearance
That's right,REVEAL Not HIDE!
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Yes He will, and we'll be with Him! (Revelation 19:11-16)
Name calling won't strengthen your argument. Facts are facts, and you don't seem to have any scripture or scholarship or facts or even logic to back-up your statements. Neither MacDonald nor Lacunza originated the pre-trib doctrine like you said they did, so what's your next "proof"?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
LOL...RaptureReady is nothing more than a cult. "Are you Rapture Ready?" is their moto.
I've heard all the arguments the raptionist put forth in order to support their fantasy doctrine of flying away.
Sad,but they are in for a big surprise.
Christ shall return exactly as He said He would!
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
I found it! One of the threads you derailed with your anti-rapture rampage.
You were wrong about Margaret MacDonald, and you were wrong about Lacunza...
 ...Three strikes and you're out.
Make your next one count.
Ezekiel 13:20
posted May 08, 2010 19:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rapture doctrine was never taught before 1830.
Who was Margaret MacDonald,Edward Irving,John Nelson Darby?
Where does the 1689 Baptist Confession say anything about a pre-trib rapture?
Where does the Creeds and Confessions of the early Church say anything about a pre-trib rapture?
IIThessalonians ch.2 says we shall not gather back to Christ untill after the anti-christ stands in Jerusalem saying he is God.
IThessalonians Ch.4 says that those who have fallen asleep will return with Christ.
New Doctrine is false doctrine,the rapture doctrine is less than 200 years old.
"The rapture doctrine is a false teaching that Jesus warned us to expect in the latter days"
Corrie Ten Boom
From "Rapture-Prophecy or Heresy" by H.Speed Wilson pg.74
_________________________________________________
Carol Swenson
posted May 08, 2010 21:51
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The concept of the rapture, in connection with premillennialism, was expressed by the American Puritan father and son, Increase and Cotton Mather. They held to the idea that believers would be caught up in the air, followed by judgments on the earth and then the millennium. The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge (1738) and John Gill (1748) in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on the earth and Jesus' Second Coming. The concept of a pre-tribulation rapture was articulated by Baptist Morgan Edwards in an essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia.
Although not using the term rapture, the idea was more fully developed by Scottish minister, Edward Irving (1792–1834). In 1825 Irving directed his attention to the study of prophecy and eventually accepted the one-man Antichrist idea of James Henthorn Todd, Samuel Roffey Maitland, Robert Bellarmine, and Francisco Ribera, yet he went a step further. Irving began to teach the idea of a two-phase return of Christ, the first phase being a secret rapture prior to the rise of the Antichrist. According to Irving, “There are three gatherings: – First, of the first-fruits of the harvest, the wise virgins who follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth; next, the abundant harvest gathered afterwards by God; and lastly, the assembling of the wicked for punishment.” (Where Irving got this idea is a matter of much dispute.)
Dr. Samuel Prideaux Tregelles, a respected theologian and biblical scholar, who lived during the rapid growth in popularity of the "secret rapture" teaching, wrote a pamphlet which traces the concept of rapture through John N. Darby back to Edward Irving.
John Nelson Darby, considered the father of dispensationalism, first proposed the pre-tribulation rapture in 1827. This view was accepted among many other Plymouth Brethren in England. Darby and other prominent Brethren were part of the Brethren Movement which impacted American Christianity, primarily through their writings. Influences included the Bible Conference Movement, starting in 1878 with the Niagara Bible Conference. These conferences, which were initially inclusive of historicist and futurist premillennialism, led to an increasing acceptance of futurist premillennial views and the pre-tribulation rapture especially among Presbyterian, Baptist and Congregational members. Popular books also contributed to acceptance of the pre-tribulation rapture, including William Eugene Blackstone's book Jesus is Coming published in 1878 and which sold more than 1.3 million copies, and the Scofield Reference Bible, published in 1909 and 1919 and revised in 1967.
The Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, the Anglican Communion, as well as most Protestant Calvinist denominations have no tradition of a preliminary return of Christ and reject the doctrine, in part because they cannot find any reference to it among any of the early Church fathers and find its biblical foundation weak, and because of their rejection of the 19th-century concept of dispensationalism. Some also reject it because they interpret prophetic scriptures in either an amillennial or postmillennial fashion.
Proponents of a preliminary rapture believe the doctrine of amillennialism originated with Alexandrian scholars such as Clement and Origen and was later brought wholly into Roman Catholic dogma by Augustine. Thus, the church until then held to premillennial views, which see an impending apocalypse from which the church will be rescued after being raptured by the Lord. This is even extrapolated by some to mean that the early church espoused pre-tribulationism.
Some Pre-Tribulation proponents maintain that the earliest known extra-Biblical reference to the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is from a sermon attributed to the fourth-century Church Father Ephraem the Syrian, which says, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." However, the interpretation of this writing, as supporting Pre-Tribulation rapture, is debated.
There exist at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812, and by John Nelson Darby himself in 1827. However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations.
The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is often wrongly attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret McDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision of the end times which describes a post-tribulation view of the Rapture that was first published in 1840. It was published again in 1861 but two important sentences demonstrating post-tribulation were removed to encourage confusion concerning the timing of the Rapture. The two removed sentences were, "This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus" and "The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept".
The popularization of the term is associated with the teaching of John Nelson Darby, prominent among the Plymouth Brethren, and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in English-speaking churches at the end of the 19th century. In 1908, the doctrine of the rapture was further popularized by an evangelist named William Eugene Blackstone, whose book, Jesus is Coming, sold more than one million copies. The first known theological use of the word "rapture" in print occurs with the Scofield Reference Bible of 1909.
In 1957, John Walvoord, a theologian at Dallas Theological Seminary, authored a book, The Rapture Question, that gave theological support to the Pre-Tribulation rapture; this book eventually sold over 65,000 copies. In 1958, J. Dwight Pentecost authored another book supporting the Pre-Tribulation rapture, Things to Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, which sold 215,000 copies.
During the 1970s, the rapture became popular in wider circles, in part due to the books of Hal Lindsey, including The Late Great Planet Earth, which has reportedly sold between 15 million and 35 million copies, and by the movie A Thief in the Night, which based its title on the scriptural reference 1 Thessalonians 5:2. Lindsey proclaimed that the rapture was imminent, based on world conditions at the time. The Cold War and the European Economic Community figured prominently in his predictions of impending Armageddon. Other aspects of 1970s global politics were seen as having been predicted in the Bible. Lindsey suggested, for example, that the seven-headed beast with ten horns, cited in the Book of Revelation, was the European Economic Community, a forebear of the European Union, which at the time aspired to ten nations; it now has 27 member states.
In 1995, the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation rapture was further popularized by Tim LaHaye's Left Behind book series, which sold tens of millions of copies and was made into several movies.
The doctrine of the rapture continues to be an important component in American fundamentalist Christian eschatology.
A list of some early Church leaders who believed that the church would be "caught up" one day. Hippolytus of Rome [170-236]; Ireaneus [170-202]; Cyprian [200-258]; Ephraem of Nisibus [306-373]; Francisco Ribera [1532-1591]; Isaac Watts [1674-1748]; John Nelson Darby [1800-1882].
The following New Testament verses support the teaching about the rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 "15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
John 14:2–3 "2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Philippians 3:20-21 "20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 Corinthians 15:49–55 "49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 "1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
Revelation 3:10 Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000498#000014
_________________________________________________
One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.
Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.
With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Ezkiel,
To imply that we did not study end times, is insulting. I have told you that I have done at least 7 studies over a 25 year period and different Churches.
You are the one who is too stubborn to learn about a different view.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
In the meantime, about Lacunza...
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
I will venture to assert that,there is not a Bible teacher nor anyone else living in the world today who has found a SECRET RAPTURE in the Bible by their own independent study of the Bible itself. These teachers all come to the Bible with cut-in-dried theories which they have been taught elsewhere,and twist and torture texts to fit theory. If the spiritual pedigree of the Futurist Bible teachers could be traced back,they would all be found to spring from one source-Lacunza-the Jesuit.
Duncan McDougall
"The Rapture of the Saints"
Meet The Real Manuel Lacunza
A few of my acquaintances, especially John Bray, have claimed that a Catholic priest named Manuel de Lacunza (using the pen name "Ben-Ezra") originated the pretribulation rapture belief and introduced it in his notable work "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" (1812).
Well, now is the right time to tell you that I am forced to kindly disagree with the Lacunza claim. Here's why:
Bray, in his 1982 booklet "The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching," admitted that he'd been influenced by an early 20th century pastor, Rev. Duncan McDougall of the Free Church of Scotland, who wrote the booklet "The Rapture of the Saints." McDougall, copied by Bray, was inspired by "much before" speculation in a Lacunza quote (Vol. I, p. 99) which declared that "much before" Christ's "arrival at the earth" He "will give his orders" involving a shout, the archangel's voice, and the trumpet of God (I Thess. 4:16).
But both McDougall and Bray were evidently unaware that a few paragraphs after the "much before" quote (and in the same context), Lacunza reveals that other writers of his time commonly believe that "a few minutes will suffice----five or six" between the catching up and the touchdown at Jerusalem. Although Lacunza doesn't explain his "much before," a day----or even an hour----would be "much before" when compared with only five or six minutes.
Lacunza speculates (Vol. II, p. 250) that the "wrath" and "commotion" of the "day of the Lord's coming" (that is, the second advent) will last at least "forty-five natural days." Bray somehow sees these days as part of "the tribulation period" and claims that in Lacunza's view the raptured saints are up in the air with Christ throughout the same 45-day period.
Even though Lacunza places a rapture before this period, he repeatedly notes that this period is "after the entire ruin of Antichrist," "after the coming of Christ in glory and majesty," "in the age to come," etc.!
After the meeting in the air, Lacunza even has the raptured saints back on earth during the 45 days! In Vol. II (pp. 262-3) he declares that they will immediately become Christ's messengers; he quotes Isa. 18:2: "Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled"----in other words, to "the relics of all nations which shall survive" Antichrist's reign. Does Lacunza teach a rapture occurring 45 days before the coming to earth, as Bray claims? Let's look at Vol. I.
On p. 83 Lacunza refers to the book of Revelation and writes that "the nineteenth chapter speaks of the coming of the Lord in glory and majesty, which Christians with one consent do wait for." Pages 99-100: after quoting I Thess. 4:13-18 Lacunza quotes Matt. 24:30 and then comments: "If you compare this text with that of St. Paul, you shall find no other difference than this, that those who are to arise on the coming of the Lord, the apostle nameth those who are dead in Christ, who sleep in Jesus; and the Lord nameth them his elect."
Lacunza (p. 113) again quotes I Thess. 4 and Matt. 24 in this manner: "...He shall descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive, &c. and it appears to me, that you will find St. Paul and the Gospel speaking one and the same thing: He shall send his angels and they shall gather his elect from the four winds; who can be no other than those very ones who are in Christ, who sleep in Jesus." For years I sent Lacunza quotes like the ones above to Bray and urged him to abandon that Catholic priest. Finally, in a letter dated Oct. 17, 1990 (still in my files), Bray wrote: "I don't even know what all Lacunza was talking about."
(He's the same Bray who's been promoting 18th century pastor Morgan Edwards as a pretrib. But I've been telling Bray that Edwards believed that "Antichrist" was the Catholic papacy which had already been on earth for 1200 years before Edwards wrote his book! I've also told Bray that Edwards viewed the Ottoman Empire as Rev. 13's second beast----a beast that was already four centuries old in Edwards' day! It would have been impossible for Edwards to expect an event which logically should have happened centuries earlier!)
Interestingly, even Tim LaHaye's 1992 book "No Fear of the Storm" alias "Rapture Under Attack," alias "The Rapture"), p. 169, admits that "Lacunza never taught a pre-Trib Rapture!"
http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/manuel_lacunza.html
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
That was very well said.
Actually, you don't just encourage people to study for themselves, though. Usually you say a lot of mean, insulting things that are really self-defeating because people won't listen to you when you act that way.
Anyway, we did talk about when the pre-trib belief began some months ago. I'll go back and find it for you.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
LOL look who's talking 
There's a big difference between trying to get someone to study for themselves and trying to push some doctrine or belief on them.
All I do is encourage people to investigate who started the pre-trib rapture doctrine,when was it started,and where was it started.
Has it always been taught in the mainstream Church? If not when did they start teaching it.
Is it basically a post WW1 doctrine?
We should study and shew our selves approved unto God,not Church systems. Be like the Bereans,shearch the Scriptures,investigate for yourself.
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
Maybe this does not belong here, but Ezekiel you remind me of this...
"I was in San Fransisco once, walking along the Golden Gate Bridge, and I saw this guy on the bridge about to jump. So I thought I’d try to stall and detain him, and hopefully talk him out of it...
I said, “Don’t jump!” and he turns… You’ve heard of the elephant man. He was kind of like that, he had a, well, you could say he had the head of a horse. And my heart went out to him. I said, “Why the long face?”
He said, ”’Cause all my life people have called me mean names like horses-head or Flicka or chess-piece or Trigger…”
I said, “Well, don’t worry about it, friend. It can’t be that bad.”
He said, “My girlfriend’s suing me!”
I said, “For palomino?”
He said, “Why was I put on this Earth?”
I said, “My friend, anywhere else you wouldn’t stand a chance.”
He said, “Nobody loves me.”
I said, “God loves you, you silly ninny.”
He said, “How do you know there’s a God?”
I said, “Of course there’s a God. Do you think that billions of years ago a bunch of molecules floating around at random could someday have had the sense of humor to make you look like that?”
He said, “I do believe in God.”
I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?”
He said, “A Christian.”
I said, “Me too. Protestant or Catholic?”
He said, “Protestant.”
I said, “Me too! What franchise?”
He says, “Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.”
I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over! "
LOL...Pre-tribbers would do anything to push someone into satan's flood of pre-trib.
They will defend their little security blanket at all cost.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
I'll take that as a "No".
quote:
Revelation means to reveal
Actually, the word is Apokalupsis and it means
laying bear, making naked
a disclosure of truth, instruction
concerning things before unknown
used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all
manifestation, appearance
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
The death spoken of in Revelation for the most part is spiritual death. Satan is spiritual death,he ain't to concerned with killing someone physically.
You have obviously never read the book of Revelation.
Revelation means to reveal. Not to seal up or hide (which most pre-trib teachers try to do).
God promises a blessing to those who read and hear it. Do you know where it is written within the book?
Where was John in ch.1 vs.10?
It's sad,but the lamestream church and the government do all they can to hide this book.
The True Church,(those who have not been beguiled by the traditions of men), studies it.
The most ovious is that it confuses those who have been swept away in satan's pre-trib rapture lies.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist!
If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
The death spoken of in Revelation for the most part is spiritual death. Satan is spiritual death,he ain't to concerned with killing someone physically.
You have obviously never read the book of Revelation.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
My charts show that the 70th Week of Daniel has been misunderstood to be one 7-year tribulation but in fact (according to the Bible) will be two 3.5-year tribulations.
So the rapture will take place
PRE-trib (that is unbeliever's tribulation at the last half of the 70th Week of Daniel which Jesus coined would be the great tribulation where God exacts vengeance on those who know not him)
MID-70th Week of Daniel
POST-believer's tribulation in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel.
This is not the classic MID-Trib view because those that hold that view also believes there will be one 7-year tribulation.
Believers were persecuted from the beginning and will be to the end of our existence here in this era / dispensation...
Several of the NT epistles were written to encourage believers who were under persecution.
Fox's book of martyrs can shed light on the extent believer's have suffered for Christ.
Revelation 13:5-10 (KJV)
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
So the rapture is not a hopeful monster theory that we will be whisked away before we get a hang nail or something...
The Bible speaks of persecution in the last days where believers who do not take the mark of the beast will be beheaded.
Revelation 20:4 (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
According to scripture the only ones who do not take the mark are Christians / Saints. And those who take the mark...
Revelation 14:11 (KJV)
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 13:16-18 (KJV)
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Couple this with surveillance technology and you are looking at Believers driven underground in hiding trying to survive any way they / we can.
666 is a tracking device to locate and kill believers or starve them off.
Sound Pollyanna to you Ezekiel?
IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
Maybe this does not belong here, but Ezekiel you remind me of this...
"I was in San Fransisco once, walking along the Golden Gate Bridge, and I saw this guy on the bridge about to jump. So I thought I’d try to stall and detain him, and hopefully talk him out of it...
I said, “Don’t jump!” and he turns… You’ve heard of the elephant man. He was kind of like that, he had a, well, you could say he had the head of a horse. And my heart went out to him. I said, “Why the long face?”
He said, ”’Cause all my life people have called me mean names like horses-head or Flicka or chess-piece or Trigger…”
I said, “Well, don’t worry about it, friend. It can’t be that bad.”
He said, “My girlfriend’s suing me!”
I said, “For palomino?”
He said, “Why was I put on this Earth?”
I said, “My friend, anywhere else you wouldn’t stand a chance.”
He said, “Nobody loves me.”
I said, “God loves you, you silly ninny.”
He said, “How do you know there’s a God?”
I said, “Of course there’s a God. Do you think that billions of years ago a bunch of molecules floating around at random could someday have had the sense of humor to make you look like that?”
He said, “I do believe in God.”
I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?”
He said, “A Christian.”
I said, “Me too. Protestant or Catholic?”
He said, “Protestant.”
I said, “Me too! What franchise?”
He says, “Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Baptist.”
I said, “Me too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist or Northern Conservative Reform Baptist?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region.”
I say, “Me too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?”
He says, “Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.”
I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over! "
IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Carol,
Some people do not want to see the truth. Years ago on this board a person told me that if it was a pre-trib rapture that they hoped they would be left behind. I was SHOCKED. How can a Christian say that? The only ones they will be left are unsaved. How can a Christian say they would rather be unsaved then admit they were wrong? I say the sin of pride. They are so prideful they would rather go through the tribulation then be wrong.
so sad
betty
Only God is to judge the saved from the unsaved.
How do you know someone's heart?
The modern day herecy of pre-trib rapture,taught by the modern day aspostate church has deceived a multitude of people.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Anti-christ comes in Peacefully and Prosperously saying he is God.
The death he causes is spititual death.
The death spoken of in Revelation for the most part is spiritual death. Satan is spiritual death,he ain't to concerned with killing someone physically.
Anti-christ pretends to be Christ. A better name for anti-christ would be Facsimile-christ.
Those who have watched the death and destrution movies,will be in for quite a surprise when anti-christ does appear,they will think he is Jesus here to rapture them away.
What would a man give in exchange for his soul?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Betty,
I think some people think of it as an exciting adventure, like young warriors hungry for a war. They have no idea how dreadful the Tribulation is going to be...starvation, disease, earthquakes, and worse.
And the AntiChrist will make Hitler look like a boy scout.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Carol,
Some people do not want to see the truth. Years ago on this board a person told me that if it was a pre-trib rapture that they hoped they would be left behind. I was SHOCKED. How can a Christian say that? The only ones they will be left are unsaved. How can a Christian say they would rather be unsaved then admit they were wrong? I say the sin of pride. They are so prideful they would rather go through the tribulation then be wrong.
so sad
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
The Seven Annual Feasts of the Lord were celebrated in type and shadow forecasting the entire Church Age, Tribulation, and Millennial Kingdom. In detail the Hebrew Children celebrated these feasts with dedication and consecration annually throughout their generations. It was a 'Rehearsal' of things to come!
The Passover Feast was a type of the Crucifixion,
The Feast of Unleavened Bread was a type of the Burial,
The Feast of First Fruits was a type of the Resurrection,
The Feast of Pentecost was a type of the Birth of the Church,
The Feast of Trumpets was a type of the Rapture of the Church,
The Feast of Atonement was a type of the Tribulation Period, and finally
The Feast of Tabernacles was a type of the Millennial Reign.
Without exception the feasts were celebrated in order of God's direction, on the same day each year, and in the same order each year.
Note that the Feast of Trumpets (a type of the Rapture) was celebrated on the first day of the month of Tishrei. The Feast of Atonement (a type of the Tribulation Period) was celebrated on the 10th day of the month of Tishrei. The Feast of Trumpets was never celebrated in the 'middle' of the Day of Atonement (Tribulation). Nor was it celebrated at the 'end' of the Feast of Atonement (Tribulation).
The Church Will Not Go Through The Tribulation Period.
http://www.leestoneking.com/prophecy_prophecy.htm
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Thank you John. It worked well for the one you modified, but you still need to resize the other one.
img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ef_au-iBdG4/TPIMAzAg6WI/AAAAAAAAARQ/8CmdoEIqNCo/s1600/70x7.jpg" width="879" height="594"
Figure on posting your charts at 90% or less for this forum. I appreciate you doing this; the thread is hard to read when it is distorted by large images.
You probably already know this, but for those who don't know, you can find the pixels for 90% (or whatever percent you want) this way:
(This is for Microsoft "My Pictures". The instructions can be modified for other programs.)
1. Right click the image and select "Save picture as", then save it to "My Pictures".
2. Open the "My Pictures" folder and double-click the image.
3. At the top of the Microsoft Office Picture Manager window select "Edit Pictures".
4. From the column at the right select "Resize".
5. From the new column at the right select "Percentage of original".
6. Change the value from 100% to 90%.
7. Below the percentage is the size setting summary. It will give you the pixel numbers for the new size. The first number is width and the second number is height.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
John Hale
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
John,
Please, when you post a chart or image, instead of using the image button, use this code. If you put angle brackets < > around it, it will display your chart. Using this code you can easily resize any image to fit this forum. Right now your chart is too big and it stretches the thread, so the text from everyone's posts runs off the right side of the page. It fits okay on my laptop, but it doesn't fit on a desktop PC.
img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pnDAVN8myx8/TVtUmX05lWI/AAAAAAAAATg/UJV7YhA_jvI/s1600/70weeks.jpg" width="879" height="735"
Better?
I never saw the problem I have a flat screen that shrinks things if need be automatically... sorry
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Ezekiel 13:20
Wherefore thus saith the LORD GOD;Behold,I am against your pillows,wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly,and I will tear them from your arms,the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Pre-trib raptionist twist scripture pretaining to the Glorious Second Coming of our Lord and Saviour,Jesus Christ to support their false teaching of the sudden disappearing act of pre-trib rapture.
Are you asleep on the soft pillow of pre-trib. Totally ignorant of the order of events leading up to the return of Jesus Christ?
Christ returns on the 7th trump,anti-christ appears on the 6th,saying he is Christ.
It's all about the trumps,the seals,the viles not flying away!
"Investigate the origin of the modern day false teaching of pre-trib bail out,troop withdrawal,pre-trib rapture."
Sounds like Temple of the Remnant. Is that where you study? Where do you learn your theories?
Ezekiel 13:20 (NASB)
Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I am against your magic bands by which you hunt lives there as birds and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let them go, even those lives whom you hunt as birds.
You are the one twisting scripture. Ezekiel 13:20 has nothing to do with flying away or the Rapture or the Tribulation.
The Jewish women Ezekiel was exposing were more like sorceresses who claimed to be prophetesses. They practiced the magical arts they had probably learned in Babylon, all of which were forbidden to the Jews (Deut. 18:9-14). They manufactured magic charms that people could wear (magic bands worn on the arm) and thus ward off evil. They also told fortunes and enticed people to buy their services.
But they weren’t helping people; they were hunting them and catching them like birds in a trap to take their money. They told the people lies, they didn’t expose their sins, and they kept them from trusting the true and living God and depending on His Word alone. Instead of condemning the evil and rewarding the good, they were slaying the good and rewarding the evil! Through their divinations, they gave false hope to the wicked and condemned the just.
Some people try to turn Ezekiel 13 into a rapture study, but it isn't.
Ezekiel began to prophesy in 593 B.C., the fifth year of Jehoiachin’s captivity (1:2). The last dated message is from 573 B.C. (29:17). The compilation of the complete book may be dated shortly after 573 B.C.
At this point in history, the people of the northern kingdom had been in exile for over a century (since 722 B.C.), and the people of the southern kingdom (Judah) had already suffered two of their three exiles to Babylon (in 605 and 597 B.C.). Jerusalem had not yet been destroyed, and the exiled Jews would naturally have had great hopes that Jerusalem might somehow survive. But God had clearly spoken otherwise. Their false hopes kept God’s people from facing the truth: their own sins would soon bring about the destruction of their city and nation (586 B.C.). Ezekiel’s prophecy was designed to place the responsibility for Jerusalem’s downfall squarely on the shoulders of the Jews. But the prophecy’s message also provided comfort for the Jews after the destruction of Jerusalem by graphically presenting the prediction of a restored Jerusalem, temple, and land.
quote:
Christ returns on the 7th trump,anti-christ appears on the 6th,saying he is Christ.
It's all about the trumps,the seals,the viles not flying away!
If the seventh trumpet in Revelation and the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 are supposed to be a reference to the same thing, then why are there many more months of judgment that follow the supposed last trumpet in Revelation 11? The view that equates the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the seventh trumpet of Revelation does not harmonize in any way.
"There seem to be a number of observations which make it impossible for one to identify these two trumps.
(1) The trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, . . . sounds before the wrath of God descends, while, . . . the chronology or Revelation indicates that the trumpet in Revelation 11:15 sounds at the end of the time of wrath. . . .
(2) The trumpet that summons the church is called the trump of God, while the seventh trump is an angel's trumpet. . . .
(3) The trumpet for the church is singular. No trumpets have preceded it so that it can not be said to be the last of a series. The trumpet that closes the tribulation period is clearly the last of a series of seven.
(4) In 1 Thessalonians 4 the voice associated with the sounding of the trumpet summons the dead and the living and consequently is heard before the resurrection. In the Revelation, while a resurrection is mentioned (11:12), the trumpet does not sound until after the resurrection, showing us that two different events must be in view.
(5) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians issues in blessing, in life, in glory, while the trumpet in Revelation issues in judgment upon the enemies of God.
(6) In the Thessalonian passage the trumpet sounds "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye." In Revelation 10:7 the indication is that the seventh trumpet shall sound over a continued period of time, probably for the duration of the judgments that fall under it, for John speaks of the angel that shall "begin to sound." . . .
(7) The trumpet in 1 Thessalonians is distinctly for the church. Since God is dealing with Israel in particular, and Gentiles in general, in the tribulation, this seventh trumpet, which falls in the period of the tribulation, could not have reference to the church without losing the distinctions between the church and Israel.
(8) The passage in Revelation depicts a great earthquake in which thousands are slain, and the believing remnant that worships God is stricken with fear. In the Thessalonian passage there is no earth quake mentioned. . . .
(9) While the church will be rewarded at the time of the rapture, yet the reward given to "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints" can not be that event. The rewarding mentioned in Revelation 11:18 is seen to take place on the earth after the second advent of Christ, following the judgment on His enemies. Since the church is rewarded in the air, following the rapture, these must be two distinct events."
(J. Dwight Pentecost, Things To Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1958), pp. 189-91.)
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/last-trumpet
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
And as usual you refuse to answer questions. You come here and start trouble but you never answer questions. You are rude and self absorbed and refuse to listen to anyone. I see why WildB gets so frustrated with you.
I am just going to pretend I don't see you here. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Ezekiel 13:20
Wherefore thus saith the LORD GOD;Behold,I am against your pillows,wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly,and I will tear them from your arms,the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Pre-trib raptionist twist scripture pretaining to the Glorious Second Coming of our Lord and Saviour,Jesus Christ to support their false teaching of the sudden disappearing act of pre-trib rapture.
Are you asleep on the soft pillow of pre-trib. Totally ignorant of the order of events leading up to the return of Jesus Christ?
Christ returns on the 7th trump,anti-christ appears on the 6th,saying he is Christ.
It's all about the trumps,the seals,the viles not flying away!
"Investigate the origin of the modern day false teaching of pre-trib bail out,troop withdrawal,pre-trib rapture."
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Just another text book defense,for the ever popular modern day,false doctrine of pre-trib "bail out".
Yes, full of scripture. Where is YOUR scripture?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Do you believe that Elijah was ashamed to call to Heaven without dying? Do you think every Christian who died a peaceful death should be ashamed in Heaven. There will be no shame for Christians who are taken in the rapture. Why should Christians be ashamed because Jesus calls us to Heaven in a rapture? If Jesus calls us in the rapture, it will be because it is His will. Should we think that God will make a mistake in calling His children Home to Heaven?
Betty
Elijah was transfigured,not raptured. Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I wonder why it was called the Mount of Transfiguration and not the Mount of Rapture.Umm?
 What do you think the Rapture is? That we'll go to Heaven just as we are?
1 Corinthians 15:50 - 53 (NLT)
What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever. But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed! It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed. For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Smart Alec. You still not answer my questions. Do you think there will be shame for Christians who die peacefully in their sleep? Do you think if the rapture takes place before the tribulations Christians should be ashamed God called them to Heaven? Do you think if God does have the rapture before the tribulation, that you are going to tell God that He made a mistake and you are upset that you did not get your head chopped off?
betty
P.S. Although we call the event the Rapture we like Elijah will be transformed. Our bodies will be transformed into new bodies and we will meet Jesus in the air.
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Do you believe that Elijah was ashamed to call to Heaven without dying? Do you think every Christian who died a peaceful death should be ashamed in Heaven. There will be no shame for Christians who are taken in the rapture. Why should Christians be ashamed because Jesus calls us to Heaven in a rapture? If Jesus calls us in the rapture, it will be because it is His will. Should we think that God will make a mistake in calling His children Home to Heaven?
Betty
Elijah was transfigured,not raptured. Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I wonder why it was called the Mount of Transfiguration and not the Mount of Rapture.Umm?
IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Just another text book defense,for the ever popular modern day,false doctrine of pre-trib "bail out".
IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
I'm just saying,Are we to suit up with the Gospel Armour for a troop withdrawal?
I just can't imagine why the early Church Founders didn't teach the ever popular "modern day" bail out,fly away docrine.
I would be so ashamed to be in Heaven with those who had died for Christ and say,"Oh,I just flew away when things got rough".
"Jesus must have loved me more than you."
Some where beheaded,some were eatten by lions,some were boiled in oil,just to name a few things done to them,but praise God He thought more of the last generation and just pulled His troops out.
Investigate the origin of the ever popular "flutter away" doctrine!
The armor is for spiritual warfare, and that has been happening for 2000 years!
"Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
"Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints...." Ephesians 6:10-18
What Is Imminency?
In doing some research on the doctrine of imminency, I noticed few people take the time to actually define what prophetic imminency means. First, let us look at the general definition of the key word "imminent:" "The quality or condition of being about to occur."
Imminency, as it relates to Bible prophecy, simply means that the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment. No warning signs will indicate a short-term countdown. We as Christians remain on alert 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
If a wife knows her husband normally gets home from work shortly after 4:00 PM, she knows that beginning at 4:00 PM, his arrival is imminent. If the woman knows her husband has to work overtime, the imminency of his 4:00 PM return is then in doubt.
The only way for the rapture to be truly imminent is to have it transpire before the tribulation. If the Church were required to wait until after the manifestation of certain events, then there would be no doctrine of imminency.
The Granddaddy Of Proofs
The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture.
Jesus repeatedly said that His return for the Church would be a surprise. The Lord even went beyond that by saying He would return "as a thief" when believers generally won't be expecting Him to come for them.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46 KJV).
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 25:13).
"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).
Because we have no way to refute the fact that we will not know the timing of our Lord's return, the tribulation is a barrier to the rapture. No wonder the late John Walvoord called imminency "the heart of Pretribulationism."
This type of "any-moment" language doesn't fit a post-trib rapture. If Jesus were prevented from coming until after the battle of Magog, the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation.
If the Church were required to go through the seven-year tribulation, you would expect the New Testament writers to have warned us to be prepared for trying times. On the contrary, the New Testament writers repeatedly tell the Church to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:18). The word "comfort" alone strongly implies the rapture will take place before the tribulation.
Some anti-imminency folks try to solve the problem they have with the rapture's any-moment occurrence by redefining it as merely indicating that Christ will return soon. The speed of Christ's advent is not the issue. If an event is required to take place before the Lord can return, there is no need to remain watchful.
If a person should make it through the tribulation until the point when the mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib folks expect the rapture to occur, it would then become possible for the rapture to be classified as "imminent." However, once you solve the problem of imminency, you create another one regarding the restrictions against knowing the timing of the rapture.
Because the duration of the tribulation is already known, post-tribbers have the hardest time dealing with the rapture's timing. Some of them have tried to suggest that believers who make it through the tribulation will lazily lose track of the nearness of Christ's second coming.
If a Christian has been lucky enough to survive a host of apocalyptic calamities and elude the Antichrist's secret police for at least 3 1/2 years, I cannot imagine that he would be oblivious to the nearness of the Lord's return at the 7-year mark. If I were reduced to the point of having to hide in a forest and forage through dead tree bark to find beetles and grubs to sustain myself, I'm certain my every thought would be focused on the Lord's return.
Maranatha
One the strongest cases one can make for the early Church expecting an imminent return of Christ is to note their use of the word maranatha, which was used as a greeting in those days. When believers gathered or parted, they didn't say "hello" or "goodbye"; they would say "Maranatha!"
I've encountered some writings that say Maranatha is Hebrew and Greek, but it is actually an Aramaic expression. In fact, it is made up of three Aramaic words: Mar, which means "Lord"; ana, which means "our"; and tha, which means "come."
So when you put it together, maranatha means "Our Lord, come." It perfectly conveys the concept that the Lord could come at any moment. Maranatha is used once in the Bible by Paul as part of a curse. In 1 Corinthians 16:22, Paul said, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema. Maranatha." The word "anathema" means "banned," so Paul was saying, "Let him be banned from our Lord's coming."
The interesting thing about maranatha is that it comes in the form of a petition. When a Christian in the early Church would make this statement, he was actually petitioning the Lord to come. This obviously implies the belief that it was possible for Jesus to answer the appeal.
If members of the first-century Church believed that certain events needed to take place before the Savior could return, they would have been silly to greet each other with "maranatha." They lived nearly 2,000 years ago, and yet they seem to have had a deeper awareness of imminency than many of today's Christians.
The Historical Record
Many of the contemporary writers who attack imminency try to promote the idea that this doctrine was recently dreamed up by men who were ignorant of the true meaning of Scripture.
One detractor states, "This frenzy [imminency] continues to survive today because of modern misconceptions about the purpose of these prophetic events and the time frame for their occurrence."
Post-trib believers are the most vocal in their claim that the concepts of imminency and the pre-trib rapture only date back to the early 1800s. For several years, their charges went unanswered, but recently a number of men have dusted off old manuscripts and found several early Church fathers who were clearly looking for an imminent return of the Lord Jesus.
"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins" (Pseudo-Ephraem (374-627 AD).
The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'speedily will He come, and will not tarry.'"
As early as 70 - 180 AD, The Didache, chapter 16, section 1, says, "'Be vigilant over your life; let your lamps not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come."
"But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One!" (Tertullian 155 - 245 AD).
John Calvin, the reformer at Geneva during the 1500s and founder of the Presbyterian Church, made the following statements in some of his commentaries on books of the Bible: "Be prepared to expect Him every day, or rather every moment." "As He has promised that He will return to us, we ought to hold ourselves prepared, at every moment to receive Him." "Today we must be alert to grasp the imminent return of Christ." Commenting on 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Rapture passage," Calvin said that Paul "means by this to arouse the Thessalonians to wait for it, nay more, to hold all believers in suspense, that they may not promise themselves some particular time . . . that believers might be prepared at all times."
The Westminster Confession, written by the Puritans of England during the 1600s, declared that men should "shake off all carnal security and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come."
"I say, somewhat more because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John 14:2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time." (Morgan Edwards 1742-44).
I'm not much of a fan of relying on what scholarly men write about the Bible. I agree with the quotes I just cited, but I don't really need a bunch of dead guys to tell me what is truth. I have over a dozen copies of the Good Book lying around the house, and I have the ability to read and understand each of them for myself.
History has proven that mankind is a dreadful biblical guide. The apostasy that swept over the Church caused a lack of prophecy commentary from about 450 AD until the 1600s. People stopped thinking for themselves. Their interpretation of the Bible became what the institutional church spoon-fed them.
Premillennialism largely disappeared after it was condemned as heretical by the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD. It wasn't until the reform movement of the early seventeenth century that we see a rebound in the number of statements that reflect the pretribulational view.
Scripture Galore
A host of Scriptures indicate the Church should expect an imminent return of their Lord. The opponents of imminency constantly try to pick apart each individual reference, but they should look at the big picture. An overwhelming number of verses in the Bible support imminency.
I've been able to easily locate 22 passages that imply that the coming of Christ remains an imminent event. All you really need is one verse to prove a point, but the weight of evidence should cause even the most hard-core imminency foes to rethink their stance.
I seriously doubt any scholar or layman could find 22 passages of Scripture that clearly indicate the tribulation or the rule of the Antichrist is the next imminent event facing the Church.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat 24:36).
Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him" (Mat 25:1-6)
"Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:33-37).
"Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light" (Rom 13:11-12).
"And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly" (Rom 16:20).
"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor 1:7).
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phil 3:20).
"Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand" (Phil 4:5).
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess 1:10).
"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thess 5:6).
"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 6:14).
"Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb 9:28).
"Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the Day approaching" (Heb 10:24-25).
"For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb 10:37).
"Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door" (James 5:7-9).
"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).
"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer" (1 Peter 4:7).
"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life" (Jude 1:21).
"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev 3:11).
"Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book" (Rev 22:7).
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev 22:20).
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-imminency.html
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture
Historical Doctrine of Imminency
1. The early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return. While it can be debated which church father said what, there is a consistency in the early church on imminency which is essential to the pre-trib position and in opposition to some other positions.
2. The Pre-trib position is the ONLY one which truly teaches imminency.
3. The fact that there is a greater development of the doctrine in recent centuries does not preclude it from the early centuries. In the very early years of the church you see the development of great fundamentals doctrines of Trinity, Deity, God-man, canon of Scripture, etc. Following those early church councils is a time of decline in the corporate church into great apostasy. The teaching of that time are built on many of the heresies of Augustine. When the Reformation comes, there is a period of reestablishing the foundational doctrines of salvation. Now, in these last days there is both and ability and a need in the church to better understand the doctrines of eschatology and the Spirit is continuing His ministry of guiding the church in all truth.
4. The exhortation to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1Thes 4:18) is valid only in the context of the pre-trib view. It could even be a fearsome thing in a post-trib view.
5. We are exhorted to look for the "Glorious Appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (Titus 2:13) If there are any prophetic events (ie: tribulation) to come first, then this passage is nonsensical.
6. Again, we are to "purify ourselves" in view of his coming.(1 John 3:2-3) If his coming is not imminent then the passage is meaningless.
7. The church told *only* to look for the Coming of Christ. It is Israel and the tribulation saints that are told to look for signs.
Nature of the Church
(Those who do not understand the nature of the church as unique in the program of God will continually be confused about the nature of His coming for the church.)
8. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any context dealing with the second coming of Christ at the end of the Tribulation.
9. The church is "not appointed to wrath" (Rom 5:9; 1 Thes 1:9-10) The church cannot enter into the "great day of their wrath."
10. The Church will not be "overtaken by the Day of the Lord." (1 Thes 5:1-9) (Day of the Lord is another term for the great tribulation.)
11. The church will be "kept from the hour of testing that shall come upon all the world." (Rev. 3:10)
12. The believer will escape the tribulation (Luke 21:36).
13. It is in the character of God to deliver His own from the greatest times of trial. (Lot, Rahab. Israel, Noah,etc)
14. It is clear that there is a time interval between the translation of the church and the Return of Christ. (John 14:3)
15. Only the pre-trib position does not divide the Body of Christ on a works principle as does partial rapture does so clearly and others to a lesser extent. It becomes a climatic finale to the grand plan of salvation by grace alone.
16. The Scriptures are adamant that the church is undivided. In this age the church is divided by the continuing old nature in the believers. When we are glorified at the coming of Christ, the church is no more divided.
17. The godly remnant of the tribulation has the attributes seen in OT Israel and not the church. The church is not present in the prophecies of Revelation.
18. The pre-trib view, unlike the post-trib view does not confuse terms like elect and saints which apply to believers of all ages, as opposed to terms like church and in Christ, which apply only to those who are the body of Christ in this age.
The Work of the Holy Spirit
19. The Holy Spirit is the Restrainer of evil in the world. He cannot be taken out as prophesied unless the church which is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is taken out.
20. The Holy Spirit will be taken out before the "lawless one" is revealed. That lawless one will certainly be revealed in the tribulation. In fact, the tribulation begins with the signing of the covenant between that lawless one and Israel. That act will reveal him.
21. The "falling away" in 2 Thes 2:3 would better be understood in its context as "the departure." This is a reference to the departure of the Holy Spirit as He indwells the church.
22. The work of the Holy Spirit making the church like Christ where they submit to death and persecution, whereas the OT saints (see many of the Psalms) and the tribulations saints cry out for vengeance (Rev 6:10)
The Hermeneutical Argument
23. Only the pre-trib view allows for a truly literal interpretation in all of the OT & NT passages regarding the great tribulation.
24. Only the pre-trib position clearly distinguishes the church and Israel and God's dealing with each. The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming
25. All believers must appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). This event is never mentioned in the account of events surrounding the second coming.
26. The "four and twenty elders" in rev 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church. Therefore it is necessary that the church, undivided, be brought to glory before those events of the tribulation.
27. There is clearly a coming of Christ for his bride before the second coming to earth. Rev 19:7-10.
28. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary activities. These specifically include farming, construction, and giving birth. (Is 65:20-25).
29. The Judgment of the Gentile nations following the second coming (Mat 25:31-46) indicates that both the saved and the lost are in a natural body which would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the second coming.
30. If the translation took place at the same time as the second coming, there would be no need to separating the sheep from the goats at the subsequent judgment. The act of the translation would be the separation.
31. The Judgment of Israel (Ez 20:34-38) occurs after the second coming and requires a regathered Israel. Again, the separation of the saved and the lost would be unnecessary if all the saved had previously been separated by a translation at the second coming.
Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming
32. At the Rapture, the church meets Christ in the air. At the second coming, Christ returns to the Mt of Olives.
33. At the time of the Rapture, the Mt of Olives is unchanged. At the second coming it is divided forming a valley east of Jerusalem.
34. At the time of the rapture, saints are translated. No saints are translated at the time of the second coming.
35. At the time of the rapture, the world is not judge for sin, but descends deeper into sin. At the second coming, the world is Judged by the King of kings.
36. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance from the day of wrath, whereas the coming of Christ is a deliverance for those who have suffered under severe tribulation.
37. The rapture is immanent whereas there are specific signs which precede the second coming.
38. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the NT. The second coming with the events surrounding it is prominent in both OT and NT.
39. The rapture is only for the saved, while the tribulation and second coming deals with the entire world.
40. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the rapture. Many signs must be fulfilled before the second coming of Christ.
41. No passage in either OT or NT deals with the resurrection of the saints at the second coming nor mentions the translation of living saints at that same time.
The Nature of the Tribulation
42. Only the pre-trib view maintains the distinction between the "great tribulation" and the tribulations in general which we all experience.
43. The great tribulation is properly understood in the pre-trib view as a preparation for the restoration of Israel. (Deut 4:29-30. Jer 30:4-11, Dan 9:24-27, Dan 12:1-2)
44. Not one single passage in the OT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
45. Not one single passage in the NT which discusses the tribulation, mentions the church.
46. In contrast to mid trib or pre-wrath views, the pre-trib view offers an adequate explanation for the beginning of the great tribulation in Rev 6. These others are clearly refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the great tribulation begins long before the 7th trumpet of Rev 11.
47. There is no proper groundwork provided that the 7th trumpet of Rev is the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15. It is accepted only on the basis of assumption. The pre-trib view maintains the proper distinction between the prophetic trumpets of the church and the trumpets of the tribulation.
48. The Unity of Daniel's 70th week is maintained by the pre-trib view. By contrast, the mid-trib view destroys the unity and confuses the program for Israel and the church. The post trib view usually denies the clear teaching of the 70th weeks by subverting it into some form or another of allegory.
49. The gathering of saints after the tribulation is done by angels whereas the gathering of the church is done by "The Lord Himself."
50. Rev 22:17-20 And the Spirit and the Bride say come. And he that heareth, let him say come ... He who testifieth of these things saith
"Yea, I come quickly, AMEN. COME LORD JESUS.
http://www.linkjesus.com/50rapture.htm
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
John,
Please, when you post a chart or image, instead of using the image button, use this code. If you put angle brackets < > around it, it will display your chart. Using this code you can easily resize any image to fit this forum. Right now your chart is too big and it stretches the thread, so the text from everyone's posts runs off the right side of the page. It fits okay on my laptop, but it doesn't fit on a desktop PC.
img src="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pnDAVN8myx8/TVtUmX05lWI/AAAAAAAAATg/UJV7YhA_jvI/s1600/70weeks.jpg" width="879" height="735"
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
quote:
Yes I am Catholic. Are Catholics forbidden in this forum? If so please let me know , I do not want to create any problems here.
Dearest Ed,
Yes I'm afraid they are. Among the rules we all agreed to, when we registered as members of this forum, is this statement:
quote:
This is not a Catholic message board. Don't promote Roman Catholicism on this board.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ed Fisher
unregistered
|
posted
Carol Wrote :
Hi Ed
What do you believe?
Your article was copied from a Catholic website. Are you Catholic?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greetings Carol;
I fully believe in the amillennial point of view which was stated in my post.
Yes this did come from a Catholic Website. The only reason why I used it is because it but into words much better my beliefs than what I could express onmy own at that point in time.
Yes I am Catholic. Are Catholics forbidden in this forum? If so please let me know , I do not want to create any problems here.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Do you believe that Elijah was ashamed to call to Heaven without dying? Do you think every Christian who died a peaceful death should be ashamed in Heaven. There will be no shame for Christians who are taken in the rapture. Why should Christians be ashamed because Jesus calls us to Heaven in a rapture? If Jesus calls us in the rapture, it will be because it is His will. Should we think that God will make a mistake in calling His children Home to Heaven?
Betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
I'm just saying,Are we to suit up with the Gospel Armour for a troop withdrawal?
I just can't imagine why the early Church Founders didn't teach the ever popular "modern day" bail out,fly away docrine.
I would be so ashamed to be in Heaven with those who had died for Christ and say,"Oh,I just flew away when things got rough".
"Jesus must have loved me more than you."
Some where beheaded,some were eatten by lions,some were boiled in oil,just to name a few things done to them,but praise God He thought more of the last generation and just pulled His troops out.
Investigate the origin of the ever popular "flutter away" doctrine!
IP: Logged |
|
|
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175
|
posted
Ezekiel 13:20
You know the majority of us do not agree with you. So give it a rest.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Posts: 5051 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered
|
posted
Those wearing the Gospel Armour don't have anything to worry about.
Those wearing jet packs,may find things a little tough.
Gospel Armour= plenty of oil
Jet packs= not enough oil
"I want to be "Left Behind" and not swept away in satan's flood of pre-trib LIES"
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
