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Topic: THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL?
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John Hale
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updated / improved
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John Hale
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105 days later after the antichrist is revealed and he reneges on his covenant with the Jews the rapture will come PRE-Wrath of God (sometimes called though inaccurately pre-trib). For the Church will go through A tribulation period prior to this (but it will not be the wrath of God but the wrath of Satan and of the human race against the Church).
Daniel's 70th week is not one 7-year tribulation period but a 7-year period of two 3.5 year tribulations... the first for the believers in Jesus Christ the second for the devil and the world.
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John Hale
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Daniel 9:27 (KJV)
27 And he shall confirm the (mosaic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Do the math. The Levitical sacrificial system of the Mosaic (Old) Covenant will be abated in the middle of the week of years 1290 days before the end of time / history. 1230 days into the week of years (the 70th Week of Daniel). 1260 is the precise middle.
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Betty Louise
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I DO NOT WANT TO BE LEFT BEHIND. I want to come up in the rapture.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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II Thessalonians ch.2
Makes it pretty clear that we will not go anywhere untill after the anti-christ stands in Jerusalem saying he is God.
I Want to be "Left Behind" and not swept away in satan's flood of pre-trib rapture LIES!
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Betty Louise
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Wrong. The rapture happens before the tribulation starts.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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BurgerGirl
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It's no secret. In Matthew 24 & Mark 13 it speaks of the rapture taking place during tribulation. The days of the God's chosen are shortened.
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Carol Swenson
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Hi Ed
What do you believe?
Your article was copied from a Catholic website. Are you Catholic?
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Ed Fisher
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The Rapture
Are you Pre, Mid, or Post? If you don't know how to answer that question, you're probably a Catholic. Most Fundamentalists and Evangelicals know that these words are shorthand for pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation. The terms all refer to when the rapture is supposed to occur.
The Millennium
In Revelation 20:1–3, 7–8, we read, "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. . . . And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth."
The period of a thousand years, the writer tells us, is the reign of Christ, and the thousand-year period is popularly called the millennium. The millennium is a harbinger of the end of the world, and Revelation 20 is interpreted in three ways by conservative Protestants. The three schools of thought are called postmillennialism, amillennialism, and premillennialism. Let's take a look at them.
Postmillennialism
According to Loraine Boettner in his book The Millennium (he also wrote the seriously defective anti-Catholic book Roman Catholicism), postmillennialism is "that view of last things which holds that the kingdom of God is now being extended in the world through the preaching of the gospel and the saving work of the Holy Spirit, that the world eventually is to be Christianized, and that the return of Christ will occur at the close of a long period of righteousness and peace, commonly called the millennium."
This view was popular with nineteenth-century Protestants, when progress was expected even in religion and before twentieth-century horrors were tasted. Today few hold to it, except such groups as Christian Reconstructionists, an outgrowth of the conservative Presbyterian movement.
Commentators point out that postmillennialism is to be distinguished from the view of theological and secular liberals who envision social betterment and even the kingdom of God coming through purely natural, rather than supernatural, means. Postmillennialists, however, argue that man is incapable of building a paradise for himself; paradise will only come about by God's grace.
Postmillennialists also typically say that the millennium spoken of in Revelation 20 should be understood figuratively and that the phrase "a thousand years" refers not to a fixed period of ten centuries, but to an indefinitely long time. For example, Psalm 50:10 speaks of God's sovereignty over all that is and tells us that God owns "the cattle on a thousand hills." This is not meant to be taken literally.
At the millennium's end will come the Second Coming, the general resurrection of the dead, and the last judgment.
The problem with postmillennialism is that Scripture does not depict the world as experiencing a
period of complete (or relatively complete) Christianization before the Second Coming. There are numerous passages that speak of the age between the First and Second Comings as a time of great sorrow and strife for Christians. One revealing passage is the parable of the wheat and the weeds (Matt. 13:24–30, 36–43). In this parable, Christ declares that the righteous and the wicked will both be planted and grow alongside each other in God's field ("the field is the world," Matt. 13:38) until the end of the world, when they will be separated, judged, and either be thrown into the fire of hell or inherit God's kingdom (Matt. 13:41–43). There is no biblical evidence that the world will eventually become totally (or even almost totally) Christian, but rather that there will always be a parallel development of the righteous and the wicked until the final judgment.
Amillennialism
The amillennial view interprets Revelation 20 symbolically and sees the millennium not as an earthly golden age in which the world will be totally Christianized, but as the present period of Christ's rule in heaven and on the earth through his Church. This was the view of the Protestant Reformers and is still the most common view among traditional Protestants, though not among most of the newer Evangelical and Fundamentalist groups.
Amillennialists also believe in the coexistence of good and evil on earth until the end. The tension that exists on earth between the righteous and the wicked will be resolved only by Christ's return at the end of time. The golden age of the millennium is instead the heavenly reign of Christ with the saints, in which the Church on earth participates to some degree, though not in the glorious way it will at the Second Coming.
Amillennialists point out that the thrones of the saints who reign with Christ during the millennium appear to be set in heaven (Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4, 11:16) and that the text nowhere states that Christ is on earth during this reign with the saints.
They explain that, although the world will never be fully Christianized until the Second Coming, the millennium does have effects on earth in that Satan is bound in such a way that he cannot deceive the nations by hindering the preaching of the gospel (Rev. 20:3). They point out that Jesus spoke of the necessity of "binding the strong man" (Satan) in order to plunder his house by rescuing people from his grip (Matt. 12:29). When the disciples returned from a tour of preaching the gospel, rejoicing at how demons were subject to them, Jesus declared, "I saw Satan fall like lightning" (Luke 10:18). Thus for the gospel to move forward at all in the world, it is necessary for Satan to be bound in one sense, even if he may still be active in attacking individuals (1 Pet. 5:8).
The millennium is a golden age not when compared to the glories of the age to come, but in comparison to all prior ages of human history, in which the world was swallowed in pagan darkness. Today, a third of the human race is Christian and even more than that have repudiated pagan idols and embraced the worship of the God of Abraham.
Premillennialism
Third on the list is premillennialism, currently the most popular among Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (though a century ago amillennialism was). Most of the books written about the End Times, such as Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth, are written from a premillennial perspective.
Like postmillennialists, premillennialists believe that the thousand years is an earthly golden age during which the world will be thoroughly Christianized. Unlike postmillennialists, they believe that it will occur after the Second Coming rather than before, so that Christ reigns physically on earth during the millennium. They believe that the Final Judgment will occur only after the millennium is over (which many interpret to be an exactly one thousand year period).
But Scripture does not support the idea of a thousand year span between the Second Coming and the Final Judgment. Christ declares, "For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done" (Matt. 16:27), and "[w]hen the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. . . . And they [the goats] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:31–32, 46).
The Rapture
Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God's people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.
But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby's pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.
Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.
This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.
The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation's beginning, and one at tribulation's end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.
Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).
What's the Catholic Position?
As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.
With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
Spinning Wheels?
Many spend much time looking for signs in the heavens and in the headlines. This is especially true of premillennialists, who anxiously await the tribulation because it will inaugurate the rapture and millennium.
A more balanced perspective is given by Peter, who writes, "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. . . . Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace" (2 Pet. 3:8–14).
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Carol Swenson
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Ezekiel 13:20 thinks air means spirit bodies. (Scroll up on this page and you'll see)
quote:
Ezekiel 13:20
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posted January 26, 2011 11:35
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The deception is in the fact that most people have been taught that "air" is the atmosphere,when in all reality we meet the Lord in our spirit bodies (air).
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John Hale
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I mean this would have been a Jim-Dandy place to have said "then he will set his feet on the mount of Olives" or "he comes with thousands of his saints" but it just says we will be with him in the air.
Please explain how this is not a taking out / rapture.
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John Hale
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Yeah, I was wondering about his meeting us in the air. When is that Ezekiel?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (KJV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
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Betty Louise
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He is going to stand on this earth once but we will meet Him in the air, during the rapture. As WildB says: stop your silliness.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
That's right He's coming back to earth. Once and only once!
WE , THE BODY OF CHRIST, are not talkie to earth.
EXCEPT in HIS CHARGE against THE ENEMIES IN/OF SILLYNESS.
Repent While the day is yet called day.
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That is all.....
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Ezekiel 13:20
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That's right He's coming back to earth. Once and only once!
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Betty Louise
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Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
When Jesus rose from the grave in His resurrected body, he was not a spirit. He ate and after He ascended to Heaven he allowed people to touch Him.
We meet Jesus in the air we will have our resurrected bodies, not just a spirit.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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BurgerGirl
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If it's so "secret" then how is it even possible that it is discussed in the bible to begin with?
I'm just sayin...
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Carol Swenson
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Spirit bodies? Then why bother with a resurrection? Air means air.
ThenG1899 we who are aliveG2198 and remainG4035 will be caughtG726 up togetherG260 with them in the cloudsG3507 to meetG529 the LordG2962 in the airG109, and soG3779 we shall alwaysG3842 be with the LordG2962
G109
ἀήρ
aēr
Thayer Definition:
1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
2) the atmospheric region
Part of Speech: noun masculine
When Jesus Christ returns in the air, He will issue the “shout of command” and the “dead in Christ shall rise first” (1 Thes. 4:16). This does not mean that He will put the elements of the body together again, for resurrection is not “reconstruction.” Paul argued for the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:35ff. He pointed out that the resurrection of the human body is like the growing of a plant from a seed. The flower is not the identical seed that was planted, yet there is continuity from seed to plant. Christians shall receive glorified bodies, like the glorified body of Christ (Phil. 3:20-21; 1 Cor. 15:47-58). The dead body is the “seed” that is planted in the ground; the resurrection body is the “flower” that comes from that seed.
Passages like John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20:1-6 indicate that there are two resurrections in the future. When Jesus Christ returns in the air, He will call to Himself only those who are saved through faith in Him. This is called “the first resurrection” or “the resurrection of life.” At the end of time, just before God ushers in the new heaven and earth, there will be another resurrection. This is called “the second resurrection” or “the resurrection of judgment.” Between these two events, I believe that the Tribulation on earth and the 1,000-year-kingdom will occur.
In Paul’s day, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead, but the Sadducees did not (Acts 23:8). Jesus taught the doctrine of the resurrection and silenced the Sadducees (Matt. 22:23-33). The Old Testament Scriptures taught this doctrine (Job 14:13-15; 19:23-27; Ps. 16:9-11; Dan. 12:2). The fact that Jesus arose from the dead proves that there is a resurrection.
Three unique sounds will be involved in this event: the Lord’s shout, the sound of the trumpet, and the voice of the archangel. Jesus Christ will give “a shout of command,” just as He did outside the tomb of Lazarus (John 11:43). Those “in the graves shall hear His voice” (John 5:28).
(Wiersbe)
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Ezekiel 13:20
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The deception is in the fact that most people have been taught that "air" is the atmosphere,when in all reality we meet the Lord in our spirit bodies (air).
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thywillbedone
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Jesus Christ is Lord.
Wild B.
Why do you think that a promise of seeing Jesus return (Acts 1:11) "in like manner, as ye have seen Him go", is also a promise to all those of you that have "NEVER seen Him go"?
Praise the Lord!
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Carol Swenson
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Ezekiel 13:20
Now you're just being silly. The scripture is there to learn from, not to brush off as a joke.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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Perhaps,the saints at Thessalonians had listened to the likes of Hymeneus and Philetus of II Timothy 2:17-18 who had came up with their version of "Left Behind"
There's nothing new under the sun,you know.
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Carol Swenson
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Spiritual Armor is for spiritual warfare, and that is for eveyday, not just the Tribulation.
Maybe you can explain why the saints were so upset in 2nd Thessalonians, "shaken in mind or troubled", if they didn't know anything about the Rapture? If they had never heard of it? They certainly would not be upset about missing the Tribulation.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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Wonder what the Gospel Armour is for if God is planning on a massive troop withdrawal,just before the battle?
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Carol Swenson
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1 Rapture 1:3 And we shall fly away before the appearance of the AntiChrist.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
2 Thessalonians 2 does not say that we will not gather back to Christ untill [sic] after the anti-christ appears.
Do you know the difference between the Day of Christ, and the Day of the Lord?
Do you know that the words "that day shall not come" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 are words that are added to the text by the editors of the KJV?
Do you know that the Greek word that was translated “falling away” is apostasia. This means a going away or departure; it does not mean a rebellion of some sort. It is interesting to note that the Greek and Latin equivalents that denote a rebellion or defection are not used in this context. As a matter of fact, the Greek word "apostasia" is the late form of the Greek word "apostasis" (Greek/ Eng. Lexicon Liddell & Scott).
apostasis means - a standing away from
G646. ἀποστασία apostasia; gen. apostasias, fem. noun from aphistēmi (G868), to depart. Departure, apostasy. (The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament)
The watershed event that prompted the change in the accepted meaning of the Greek word apostasia in 2 Thes. 2:3 was the publication of the King James Bible in 1611 where it’s translated "falling away". Prior to that it was almost always translated "departure". There is still disagreement among scholars as to the word’s proper meaning and even its etymology (origin). Some, like E.W.Bullinger, say it’s a compound of apo and stasia and means a separation away from. Others, like the Strong’s Concordance, say it’s the feminine form of apostasion, which means divorce, both of which are derived from aphistemi which is most often translated depart.
2 Thes. 2 teaches a pre-trib rapture. In fact the stated purpose of the letter, which was to refute a forgery, requires that Paul had previously taught the believers in Thessalonica that the rapture would precede the end time judgments.
In 1 Thes. 1:10 he promised that the Lord will rescue us from the time of His wrath. In 1 Thes. 2:19 He said we will be with Jesus when He comes, and in 1 Thes. 3:13 he said we’d be in the Presence of God when the time comes for the 2nd Coming. In 1 Thes. 4:16-17 he described how the Lord will take us to be with Him, and in 1 Thes. 5:9 he repeated that we’re not appointed to suffer wrath. Since the time of wrath will have already come by the end of Rev. 6, and since the Church is in view in Heaven in Rev. 5, that puts the rapture in Rev. 4 taking us away from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath.
When you read the two letters together, you can see that the second letter would have been unnecessary unless he had taught them that the rapture would precede the End Times judgments.
The whole 2nd Thessalonians letter only makes sense if Paul had taught them a pre-trib Rapture. Think about it.They were horrified at being told that the Day of the Lord had come. Why? If they were post trib they would have concluded that the 2nd Coming was only seven years away. But if they were pre-trib such news would mean that they had missed the Rapture, and that would mean that they weren’t saved. Now that would be cause for the kind of alarm their letter to Paul conveyed. (2 Thes. 2:2)
Reading 2 Thes. 2 carefully tells us the order of End Times events. Verse 3 says that the Day of the Lord (Great Tribulation) can’t come until the Anti-Christ is revealed and verse 7 says the anti-Christ can’t be revealed until the restrainer (Holy Spirit) is taken out of the way. Since the Holy Spirit is within the Church [the Body of Christ] that means we have to be gone in the Rapture before the Anti-Christ can be revealed. Paul also confirmed what the Lord said in Matt. 24:15-21 that the anti-Christ will officially reveal himself by standing in the temple declaring that he’s God. This is the Abomination of Desolation that begins the Great Tribulation.
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/apostasy-rebellion-or-rapture/
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Ezekiel 13:20
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Please offer Scripture that says we will "fly away" before the appearance of the anti-christ.
According to II Thessalonians ch.2 we will not gather back to Christ untill after the anti-christ appears. Or was Paul wrong and modern day "bail out" preachers correct?
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Carol Swenson
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1 Thessalonians 4:15 - 17 (NASB)
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 1:9 - 10 (NASB)
9For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
1 Corinthians 15:51 - 53 (NASB)
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
There is no one who can disprove a pre-tribulation Rapture. There is no one who can prove a post tribulation Rapture. And you seem unable to prove anything at all. You just bad-mouth other people's beliefs and never have anything constructive to say.
Whatever it is that you believe, why don't you offer us the scriptures and scholarship to prove your point?
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Ezekiel 13:20
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I will venture to assert that,there is not a Bible teacher nor anyone else living in the world today who has found a SECRET RAPTURE in the Bible by their own independent study of the Bible itself. These teachers all come to the Bible with cut-in-dried theories which they have been taught elsewhere,and twist and torture texts to fit theory. If the spiritual pedigree of the Futurist Bible teachers could be traced back,they would all be found to spring from one source-Lacunza-the Jesuit.
Duncan McDougall
"The Rapture of the Saints"
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Carol Swenson
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The Mid-Tribulational view is a comparatively new interpretation of Scripture. Its chief exporter was Norman B. Harrison who developed it after WWII. Harrison set dates for the Tribulation and Rapture which stated that WWI was the beginning of the Tribulation. Today the view has been modified and expanded and is espoused most clearly by Marvin Rosenthal, former director of Friends of Israel and is referred to as the Pre-Wrath Rapture View.
This view places the Rapture at the middle of the Tribulation. As Post Tribulation position was disfavored after WWI (Rapture at the end of the Tribulation) many shifted to the Mid-Tribulation position. Whatever you call it, it is a false view of timing of the Rapture that puts the Body of Christ going through part of Daniel's 70th Week. Its main error is failing to recognize that the seven year Tribulation is the period when God completes His plan for Israel and He tests, purges and purifies them, returns at His second coming and establishes their promised kingdom. The Bride of Christ is not a part of this period when God purges Israel and the Gentile nations. This glaring interpretive error sets the stage for this false view which places the Bride of Christ in the Tribulation.
Many who hold the Mid-Tribulation or Pre-Wrath Rapture position prefer to call themselves, Pre-Tribulationalist instead of Mid-Tribulationist. They teach that Christ comes for Christians in the middle of the Daniel's Seventh Week, before the "Great Tribulation" and wrath of God which occurs in the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. The first half of the seven years are not considered to be the Tribulation when God pours out His wrath upon the earth. They conclude that the Seal judgments are the wrath of man (the Antichrist) and do not come from God thus they cannot be identified as the "wrath of God."
This view is unbiblical and has many problems. In determining the validity of the Mid-Tribulational Rapture or Pre-Wrath Rapture view five of the most important questions must be answered:
(1) Does the seventh trumpet of Revelation mark the beginning of the Great Tribulation?
(2) Is the seventh trumpet the last trumpet of Revelation 11?
(3) Is the rapture of the Body of Christ in Revelations?
(4) Do the programs for Israel and the churches overlap?
(5) Is the hope of the imminent return of Christ unscriptural?
Each of these five points will be dealt with as follows:
I. DOES THE SEVENTH TRUMPET OF REVELATION MARK THE BEGINNING OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION?
A. The Mid-Tribulation position depends on the interpretation that the Great Tribulation begins at the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.
1. The view holds that the first half of of Daniel's 70th week not is the Great Tribulation and not part of God's wrath. It states the churches will go the first half of the seven years, through the "beginning of sorrows," Matthew 24:8, but not the Great Tribulation of Matt. 24:21. Its position states:
a.The first seven Seal judgments as well as the first six Trumpet judgments take place in the first 3 1/2 years (Rev. 6-10) and are not a part of the Great Tribulation.
b. Word "wrath" is reserved only for Great Tribulation. (see Matt. 14:10, 19; 15:7; 16:1)
c. There is no wrath in the first half of the Daniel's Seventh Week.
2. Problem with this view:
The devastating events of Revelation 6:16-17 and Revelation 7:14 occur before the middle of the Tribulation. The Tribulation (Daniel's Seventh Week) begins with the outpouring of the Seal judgments, followed by the Trumpets and ending with the Bowl or Vial judgments. There is no break in the progressive judgments only a worsening of the wrath of God as they are cast upon the earth.
3. Rev elation 6:1-15. The events of Revelation 6-10, reveal a very terrible time for the Earth. Note the terrible events of the seven seal judgments and the six trumpet judgments:
Verse 2 White horse: This rider goes forth conquering and to conquer. It is probably the Antichrist who appears to be white in that he offers peace to the world. He deceives the nations and all the while he is talking peace he is conquering the nations of earth and setting up himself as the world dictator.
It is imperative to acknowledge who it is that is opening the Seals and directing the Seal Judgments. It is plainly the Lamb who is the Lord Jesus Christ. It is ridiculous to conclude that these terrible judgments are the "wrath of man" and not part of God's wrath. Without question Revelation 6:1 is telling us that the Seal Judgments are the beginning of God's pouring His wrath on the earth. They are initiated by the Jesus Christ and under His direction and control and part of His plan. On this point alone the Pre-Wrath view is shown to be in error.
Verse 4 Red horse: Rider is given power to take peace from the earth, the people kill one another in war. It is Jesus Christ, the Lamb who gives the power for the rider of the red horse to take peace from the earth and bring war.
Verse 5-6 The Lord Jesus Christ opens the third seal and the Black horse rider is allowed to cause famine on earth.
Verse 8 The Lamb opens the fourth seal and the Pale horse comes forward. The Pale horse rider is named "death" and Hell follows him. One fourth of the earth is killed with the sword, hunger death, and beasts of earth. It seems inconceivable that anyone would conclude that these seals are not directed and brought on earth by the Lord Jesus. It is He that is opening the seals and the riders are going forth in power to perform the Lord's plan. Once again the Pre-Wrath view fails to take this important truth into consideration.
Verse 9-11 The saints cry out to God, "How long before you judge the earth and avenge our blood. These are said to be saints slain for the Word of God because they would not recant their testimony of salvation in Jesus Christ. Verse 11, further identifies them with their "brethren" still on the earth and states those too would be killed. Clearly these are people who are saved during the first half of the Tribulation and there is nothing to identify them as believers of the Church Age. The are crying out to God to avenge their deaths plainly recognizing that the Lord is in control and He is bringing about these devastating events.
Verse 12 Sixth Seal: Great earthquake, sun becomes as black as sackcloth, moon as blood. (volcanic eruptions) Stars fall from heavens. (Meteors) Every mountain and island is moved by the earthquake. Everyone on earth flees to caves and rocks in mountains, begging them to fall on them and hide them from the face of Christ and His wrath. Without question only God can do these catastrophic things in nature. These terrible catastrophes in nature are being brought about by God, not man and it is self evident they are part of God's purging of the earth and of His wrath.
Verse 17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" This statement contextually comes after these cataclysmic events and is intended to sum up what has been revealed. The next statement is Revelation 7:1 and begins with the statement "And after these things I saw four angels." Grammatically, the thought is changed and a new event is to be revealed. This restricts the statement of Revelation 6:17 to referring to the five seals that have been just described. There can be no question that the Lord is saying the seal judgments are part of God's wrath and this negates the Pre-wrath view as being accurate.
First Angel: It rains hail, fire mingled with blood and a third part of the tree and grass is burned up. (Rev. 8:7) Who is it that directs angels?
Second Angel: A great mountain burning with fire cast into the sea and third part of the waters turned to blood.(Rev. 8:8-9) Who is it that directs nature?
Third Angel: Third of creature in the sea killed and third of all ships. Great Star from heaven falls and third part of all fresh water is made bitter. (Rev. 8:10-11)Who is it that controls the universe and the stars of heaven?
Fourth Angel: Third of the sun, moon and stars smitten. Third part of the day is darkened. (Rev. 8:12) Who only has the power to smite the sun, moon and stars?
The angel flying through heaven saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe. Clearly all that is happening is a continuation of the Seal Judgments and is part of God's wrath.
Fifth Angel: (First Woe)Bottomless pit opened and scorpions that have power to kill men by tormenting them five months till they die.
Sixth Angel: Four demons loosed from Euphrates river. They kill a third part of all men on earth.
Revelation 9:20, "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: (Revelation 9:20).
B. Even a casual reading of Revelation 6-10 reveals these terrible events are a part of the wrath of God poured down on the earth. The time of God's wrath begins with the first Seal and continues through the sixth Trumpet judgments. This surely is not a time of "peace on earth" as the Mid-Tribulation and Pre-Wrathers would try to have us believe. It is completely erroneous to say that the first three and half years of the Tribulation are not part of the wrath of God and are only the "wrath of man."
II. IS THE RAPTURE OF THE BODY OF CHRIST IN REVELATION 11?
A. God says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
1. The Mid-Tribulation view holds that Christians will not go through the wrath of God. Buswell and Harrison, chief Mid-Tribulationalists teach that God ONLY begins to pour out His wrath in the last of the 3 1/2 years, there will be a short flight and then the Rapture. That is certainly not what the Bible teaches.
2. "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." (Revelation 11:12) They falsely conclude that those that are called to "come us hither" are Christians and this is the Rapture. The question is "Are those who ascend into heaven the churches?" the answer is clearly, No. The ones who are called and ascend up to heaven are the two witnesses not the Bride of Christ!
3. Note Revelation 11:14-15. Please carefully understand that the seventh trumpet sounds after the Second Woe and the events of Revelvation 11:3-14. If verse 12 is the Rapture it does not occur at the last trumpet, but at the sixth trumpet! Revelation 11:14, says the Second Woe is past. The Second Woe is part of the sixth trumpet not the seventh.
4. The trumpet of Revelation 11:15 sounds at the end of the time of wrath, just prior to the Second Advent of Christ.
5. However, the trumpet of Revelation 1:15 does not sound until after the resurrection is mentioned.
6. In 1 Thessalonians 4: , the trumpet sounds "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," whereas the one in Revelation 11:15 sounds over a continued period of time. In fact the seventh trumpet is the seven bowl judgments. John says the trumpet will "begin to sound."
7. God is dealing with Israel from Revelation 6, and the churches are not in view, nor is it mentioned that Christians are seen on earth from Revelation 4, until Revelation 19.
III. IS THE SEVENTH TRUMPET THE "LAST TRUMP" FOR THE CHURCHES?
A. "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:52)
1. All the events of Revelation 11 are as stated above are related to the sixth trumpet not the seventh.
2. The trumpet that sounds in Revelation 11, is sounded by angels, however in 1 Cor. 15:52 it is God who sounds the trumpet.
3. The trumpet in Revelation 11 is associated with judgment upon sin and unbelief. The trumpet in 1 Cor. 15:52 is an act of the Grace of God calling believers to be with Him.
B. Further, the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11, is not the last trumpet of Scripture!
1. According to Matt. 24:31, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31)
2. This is the gathering of the elect (the believers who survive the Tribulation) to establish Christ's earthly Kingdom. Verse 29, clearly puts this event, in time, after the Tribulation. This is the Second Coming, not the Rapture.
3. This is the last trumpet associated with the Great Tribulation, not the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.
4. The term "last trump" can be explained easily. In Roman times when a Roman camp was broken up, they sounded three trumpets. First one meant "strike tents and prepare to depart." The second meant "fall into line." The last trump meant "march away."
Schuyler English points out that it can apply to Israel as well. It can very well refer to that of a rallying call or an alarm. Numbers 10 refers to the sounding of trumpets to call an assembly for their journeying. The last trump could mean that the whole congregation was finally on the move the last thing needed to be done before they all moved. Thus, it does not have to by context or any other reason except the adjective "last" refer to the seventh trumpet judgment.
"Last" can mean last in point of time or last in point of sequence. Last can signify that which concludes a program, not necessarily the last that will ever exist. God's program for the churches differs from God's program for Israel. Each may terminate with the blowing of a trumpet, and the two trumpets be different events in time.
Paul identifies the trumpet, by context, as being associated with the Rapture and nothing else. The only similarity is that there is a trumpet that sounds. Note the other arguments that show this trumpet in fact can not be the one of the Rapture.
The last trump for Christians, or the "marching" away is a metaphor simply meaning at the end. The context tells us what "last" means.
IV. DOES GOD'S PROGRAM FOR ISRAEL OVERLAP THAT OF THE CHURCH AGE IN THE TRIBULATION?
In simple terms, the sixty ninth week of Daniel has been completed and there only remains one week to go to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. According to 2 Corinthians 3:11, Galatians 3:25, and Colossians 2:14 the dispensation of the Law ended at the Cross.
"For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Cor. 3:11)
"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Galatians 3:25)
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14).
God's program for Israel has made no progress since Pentecost. God's prophetic clock has been temporarily stopped during this age when Christ is gathering a Bride for Himself. God's prophetic clock and continuing dealing with Israel will once again begin at the Rapture. Then the Seventieth Week of Daniel will begin and God will deal with Israel in judgment, purify the Nation and then begin the saints who believe into his Millennial reign. This is the vital key to understanding these future events. The Tribulation is Daniel's 70th Week when God will purge Israel and afterwards set up His kingdom promised to the Jews. The institution of the church is not in the Tribulation as the body of Christ which makes up the churches of this dispensation will be Raptured and taken to Heaven to be with the Lord.
V. IS THE HOPE OF THE IMMINENT RETURN OF CHRIST UNSCRIPTURAL?
A. If Christ's return is imminent then the whole Mid-Tribulation issue is mute.
1. If the Rapture occurs in the middle of the Tribulation, the date of the Rapture can be set and if it can be set believers today need not to in constant preparation for or concerned about Christ's imminent return.
2. According to Daniel the first three and a half years begin with the specific event of the signing of the of the covenant between Israel and the Gentile Anti-christ.3 This surely will be an international event that all will know of and therefore anyone could then easily calulate when the Rapture would take place.
3. If the Rapture is at the middle of the Tribulation, then it is not imminent, but at least three and one half years away at any point in time prior to the beginning of the Tribulation. Christians would know that when the treaty with the Antichrist is signed it is three and a half years before Christ comes for them. Clearly this destroys the teaching of the imminent of the return of Christ.
B. However, the New Testament enjoins Christians to look for the imminent return of Christ, not the Anti-christ.
1. Many signs were given to Israel which would precede the Second Coming. They would live in expectancy of the time of the Messiah's coming. They did not know the day or hour, but they are told the events leading to His coming so they might be prepared. Christians today are not given such signs to look for.
a. The churches are told to live in the light of the imminent coming of the Lord, the Rapture.
b. Following are passages which teach that believers are to always be ready, living godly lives and be looking for Christ to come. The teaching is that Christ could return at any time therefore we are to be ready. The tone of these verses is that there is an urgent need in being ready now because Christ could come at any time.
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
Note the context of the chapter is dealing with the resurrection. It comes at the end of this letter admonishing the carnal Corinthians to put away sin and to live righteous lives. In the ending of his argument gives the reason which is because of the coming resurrection and judgment. V33-34. Note the last verse, because of the resurrection and judgment they are told to, "be ye stedfast unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain." The verse is teaching the need for consistent righteous living. This ties in with the overall picture of expectant living, though it does not directly address the imminency of Christ's return.
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil. 3:20-21).
It is a reference to the Rapture. "We look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ." We are not told to look for signs but only for Christ's return.
"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col. 3:4).
The context of the passage is Paul again referring to the Rapture, as a reason to be ready by living godly lives. Put sin to death (v4) "for which things sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience."(v6) Using the coming Rapture and judgment is used to stress the urgency of the matter of righteous living.
"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
The verse specifically says "We are not appointed unto wrath" as even most Mid-Tribulationalist will agree.
"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Timothy 6:14).
He is saying always live righteous until Christ returns. If we are not to be looking for Christ's return the verse loses it appeal. The reason the verse says we are to live godly lives is that Christ could soon return.
"Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." (James 5:8)
James is speaking to the first Christians, in earliest church. They were told almost two thousand years ago that the time drawing near to the coming of Christ. The fact is Christ still has not returned, so what is the point of this verse? The point is we are always live expecting Christ to return any moment. If it is not true that He could come at any moment the verse does make sense and is based trying to mislead believers in the living like Christ's return is imminent when in fact at any point in time it is still three and half year away. The verb "draweth nigh" is perfect tense, active voice and in the indicative mood which means this was to be a present action.
"Rejoice in the Lord alway, and again I say Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand" (Phil. 4:5).
Some use this verse to teach the imminent return of Christ, but it is pressing the point as the passage is basically saying Christ is near always to us.
"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. . . . Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness" (2 Peter 3:10,17).
The context or subject of these verses is found in verses 14-18, Peter us using the Flood, and final judgment of God, [New heavens and earth] as a admonishment to be watchful, (alert) and to live godly lives. If Christ comes in the middle of the Tribulation, the time of His coming is specific and limited to three and one half years to the day, from the signing of the peace treaty between the Anti-christ and Israel. Therefore when the peace treaty with Israel is signed everyone would know the Rapture was at least three and a half years away. . . so why the urgency in Peter's words. If we accept that Pre-wrath or Mid-Tribulational Rapture then this verse has no meaning.
"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (1 Thessalonians 5:6).
Again Paul is saying be watching always. This verse follows Paul's revealing of the Rapture. The context clearly is saying Christians are to live godly lives, being alert because of Christ's imminent return. Note what verses 8-9 say:
"But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:8-9).
The passage says that Christians are not appointed to wrath. In view here is more than just forgiveness of sins and the assurance of heaven. In context the passage's subject is the Rapture of the Body of Christ 4 and the coming "sudden destruction" of verse 3 is related to the Second Coming of Christ. Paul says we are not appointed to wrath, meaning the destruction associated with the Tribulation with precedes Christ's return. In verse 11, God says we are to comfort ourselves with this knowledge and assurance we will not be apart of the period of wrath to come. If believers today have to go through part of the Tribulation then this verse loses its point.
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
This verse is self explanatory. Paul was writing this to Titus in the mid 60's AD. If Christ's return should not be viewed at imminent then what was the purpose of Paul telling Titus to be looking for Christ's "glorious appearing" when it would be a least 2000 years into the future! When Titus died he was immediately taken to be with the Lord.5
"Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." (Revelation 3:3)
The church at Sardis was told to be watchful, turn from sin. No signs are given to look for but they are to be watchful..ready for His coming. This was written to a church in Asia at the end of the first century. The Lord tells the Philadelphian church that "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10). This church is representative of churches today that are living in the period of time before the Tribulation and are actively doing the work of the Lord through missions and being sound in doctrine. Christ tells this church it will not go through the "hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." How could the Lord keep these faithful Christians from the time of trying of the world if they were still on the earth living in this time? Clearly the Lord is again saying this dispensation of believers will not go through the Tribulation.
Note also these passages of Scripture:
1. "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Phil. 3:20-21)
2. "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Thess. 2:2) Clearly, the tone of the verse is that Christ could come at any moment. The Thessalonians had been told that the Second Coming of the Lord had already taken place and Paul is writing them to correct this erroneous teaching. Paul is telling them in 2 Thess. 2:2 that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ (v1) would come after the (1) apostasy and (2) the anti-christ (man of pedition) had been revealed (v3). He says in verse 2, "the day of Christ" is at hand or present now. In other words they are in the period before the Second Coming. The Rapture of the Body of Christ is a part of the Second Coming and Paul is saying the Second Coming, which includes the Rapture, had not occurred because the events of v3 had not come. In view here is the Second Coming at the end of Daniel's 70th week (Seven year Tribulation).
3. "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. (1 Peter 4:7) Again the same urgency is always being watchful.
4. "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand" (Rev.1:3). The word "at hand" means something that is near. The Key to the Book of Revelation is Revelation 1:9 as John was told to write the things that were past, the things that were present and the things to come. I would make no sense to say that the things of the past or present were "at hand" or near, but it makes perfect sense to say the future events the Book of Revelation reveals would be "near." Clearly the Lord is telling us to be expecting the Rapture at any moment and believers from the early church period until now have been looking for Christ to come for them.
VI. THE MID-TRIBULATIONAL OR PRE-WRATH POSITION FAILS ON AT LEAST FOUR MAIN POINTS.
A. Its teaching that the Great Tribulation does not begin until the seventh trumpet judgment.
B. Its identification of the seventh trumpet with the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel.
C. Its identification of the "last trump" of 1 Cor. 15:52, with the seventh trumpet judgment of Revelation 11.
D. Its denial of the imminent return of Christ.
Bible Truth
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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Carol Swenson
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Member # 6929
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posted
Thief in the Night
No scriptural proof-text in God’s Word more clearly points to the first of the two phases of Jesus Christ’s second coming than does the following:
“For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night” (1 Thess. 5:2).
We who hold to the pre-trib rapture viewpoint are often accused of being deceivers. We are condemned by our detractors as leading astray Christians alive now–if they live to see it-- who will be required to endure the tribulation, thus to wash their robes clean in preparation for inheriting God’s Kingdom. We are castigated for foisting upon innocent, gullible believers a “secret rapture” that will somehow lead these Christians to take the mark of the beast (Rev. 13:16-18).
I’m not precisely sure of their “reasoning,” but I think they claim this because they are convinced that the ones who fall for the rapture viewpoint won’t be able to recognize Antichrist when he comes to power. We who teach the pre-trib rapture, so the accusation goes, would have falsely led these people to think the Church would not be here when Antichrist is on the world scene.
Almost all who are antagonistic to the pre-trib rapture doctrine teach that the “elect” will have to endure part or all of the seven-year tribulation era. Those who hold to a post-tribulation rapture, or a no-rapture position, believe that Christ will come back at the end of the tribulation, at Armageddon. They hold to the notion that that is His only return in the second coming. There are other views of the second coming that have Christ returning when the earth is perfected and made ready, but we won’t go there in this essay.
Let us look at only the pre-trib rapture and the post-trib rapture positions for the purpose of exploring what is meant by the “thief in the night” references in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10.
These two viewpoints–the pre-trib, and the post-trib--offer the greatest contrast to examine in consideration of the second advent of Jesus Christ, within the overall belief that rapture will, according to Bible prophecy, happen before Christ’s foot actually touches down on Planet Earth.
The pre-trib view of rapture says that Christ’s second coming is in two phases, separated by at least seven years. The post-trib rapture view says that the rapture and Christ’s coming back to the Mount of Olives will occur almost simultaneously–certainly with no more than a matter of days separating the two events. The post-trib position says there is no “secret” rapture. Christ’s coming again will be fully seen in the heavens by all, including Christians who will be watching for Him to break through the darkness of that hour.
We agree that the rapture of the Church (all born-again believers in Jesus Christ for salvation since the Church Age began at Pentecost will be anything but a “secret”. The world will instantly go into cataclysmic chaos at the moment that stunning event takes place. The imagination is hard-pressed to fathom the ramifications of what will happen when millions suddenly vanish. Every child below the age of accountability will be gone in that mind-boggling instant of time. All babies (including those in the wombs of their mothers) will be instantly in the presence of Christ in the clouds of glory. Every corpse of every dead Christian will be raised to join with his or her soul to meet Christ in the air in that atomos of time.
The rapture will be mystifying, and to some an inexplicable phenomenon, but it will not be a secret. It will happen before the eyes of a stupefied planet of left-behind earth-dwellers. This declaration that Jesus will call His Church to be with Him seems audacious to many. But, it didn’t seem so to the Apostle Paul. He was quite confident–even adamant—in his prophecy concerning the “mystery” he had been given by the Holy Spirit to instruct all believers down through the Age of Grace (Church Age).
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (1 Cor. 15:51-52).
He explains what will take place next, in that stupendous fraction of a second:
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:15-17).
Jesus himself told of this “mystery” Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 15:51. The Lord explains what happens after believers –both the bodies of the dead and those who are living-- are caught up in the air to be with Him:
“Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (Jn. 14:1-3).
So, the rapture will take place. Believers and the bodies of those who died during the Church Age will be “caught up” in one single moment of time. “ALL,” not “some,” will go instantly to be with Jesus, who will then take them into heaven, where He has been preparing their dwelling places since He ascended from the Mount of Olives.
Again, the pre-trib position on this joyous event is that it is imminent (could happen at any moment), and will happen before the tribulation period begins. The post-trib position says that it happens at the end of the most terrible time in human history, just as Jesus Christ is returning from heaven at Armageddon.
The pre-trib view holds that it will occur at an unknown time. It will be a stunning, sudden, and unannounced-to-the-world-at-large break-in upon business as usual on Planet Earth. The post-trib proclaims that it will occur following all of the horrors of the judgments outlined in Revelation.
The pre-trib view says that the world at large (left-behind earth-dwellers) won’t see it coming. The rapture will cause all left on earth to wonder what has happened. The post-trib view says that all eyes will behold Christ’s coming again to a hellish planet, and the living and dead saints will then be gathered to Christ.
The defining thing to consider in thinking on the two diametrically different views of the rapture and second coming is wrapped up in the term “thief in the night”. The Apostle Peter again uses this mysterious term, first used by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:2: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Pet. 3:10).
Peter is saying here that the day of the Lord–that time when God and His Christ, His Son, takes over this fallen planet—will begin like a thief in the night. It will be a sudden, catastrophic break-in upon a world doing business as usual. (Read Luke 17:26-29 to understand how things will be going along as usual when Christ comes back.)
This description hardly fits the post-trib view, or any other view that says Christ will rapture His Church during a time of unprecedented trouble (Jer. 30:7; Matt. 24:21). This indicates that it will be a total surprise, because a thief in the night doesn’t announce his coming with great, cataclysmic fanfare. The break-in is swift, stealthy–a totally unexpected event.
Peter foretells in these passages that the “day of the Lord” will then run its course, until the remaking of the heavens and the earth. The rapture will begin this “day of the Lord,” which will then run at least 1,007 years.
This is the first phase of Christ’s second coming. The rapture occurs like a “thief in the night”. The second advent, when Jesus’ foot touches down on the Mount of Olives, is the second phase of His second coming.
There are those who say with vehemence that it is blasphemous to equate Christ’s coming again as being like the break-in of a thief in the night. How dare we liken their Lord to a “thief”!
Really? Here’s what Jesus, the Creator of all things, said about this matter:
“But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matt. 24:43-44).
Looks like a pretty good case for the Lord’s sudden intervention into the nefarious affairs of this increasingly wicked world, does it not? That thief-in-the-night moment could happen, literally, at any moment. Certainly, signals of the tribulation are beginning to come to pass.
“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh” (Lk. 21:28).
Rapture Ready
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Betty Louise
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You my friend are the one mistaken. The rapture will take place. But, don't worry. All Christians will be taken in the rapture, even those who do not believe.
The Second Coming Jesus will stand once again on earth but at the rapture He will be in the clouds and we shall meet Him in the air.
The Church will be with Jesus when He comes back for the Second Coming. We will be on white horses with Jesus when He returns.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Ezekiel 13:20
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Christ will only return ONCE,not Twice as some misguided teachers teach.
Christ returns on the seventh trump. That's happens after the anti-christ has stood in Jerusalem saying he is God. (II Thessalonians ch.2).
Don't be beguiled by false teachers who say you will be raptured out of here before anti-christ appears.
The false doctrine of pre-trib rapture was never taught before 1830.
Study and shew yourselves approved! Who started it,when was it started,where was it started.
If you take a close look at the pre-trib rapture doctrine you might see how it has made many false teachers rich and famous!
Beware of the pre-trib easy out,bail out,fly away doctrine!
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
Romans 11:16-34 (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward
thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
We all love Christ, whats your point?
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That is all.....
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John Hale
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Romans 11:16-34 (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward
thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
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John Hale
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Both the Old and New Testament support a Dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest case is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ’s kingdom will last a thousand years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. Simply stated, the Church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the Church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel, and will one day restore Israel to His intended role for the nation He has chosen (Rom. 11).
Never said the Church replaced Israel. Unbelief is unbelief whether a Jew disbelieves or a Gentile.
John 3:16-18 (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 14:6 (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Physical Jews and Israel are still God's people OF earth (even in unbelief). And since they are in unbelief it gets them persecuted and all other sorts of atrocities committed against them for being out of the will and protection of God.
But God will not allow them to be exterminated, he does protect their borders even if allowing the Palestinians be the barbs in their eyes he prophesied they would be so long ago.
We who do believe in Jesus are God's people ON earth, ambassadors from heaven. God does bless and protect us BUT he has a bigger plan and higher calling for us than prosperity and wellness in this life... namely getting other people saved.
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Carol Swenson
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Both the Old and New Testament support a Dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest case is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says, six times, that Christ’s kingdom will last a thousand years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth with Jerusalem as His capital, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The Church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. Simply stated, the Church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the Church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel, and will one day restore Israel to His intended role for the nation He has chosen (Rom. 11).
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John Hale
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Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Revelation 2:9 (KJV)
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Why? Because they do not believe in Jesus. Same as in:
John 8:39-45 (KJV)
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Romans 11:28-29 (KJV)
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
But until they believe in Jesus and since they have no Temple (yet) they congregate in synagogues that teach Jesus was not the Messiah and are...
Revelation 3:9 (KJV)
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
The worship is of Jesus btw and they will be before us (bowing) but turned away to face Jesus to worship him.
And as I repeatedly cite the passages where Paul distinguished between the Jew / Israel of faith and the natural born Jews / Israel...
Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 9:6 (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Romans 11:16-26 (KJV)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV)
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Philippians 3:3 (KJV)
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
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John Hale
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Either you are not reading the scriptures I cite or you are simply refusing to believe them, WildB. You quote a scripture that says Gentile believers are not physical Jews / physical Israel.
I never said they were.
The scripture passages never said they were.
I never said a Gentile could be made a physical Jew of physical Israel or were entitled to one inch in the Holy Land as the nature born Jews (Israel) is entitled to according to the unconditional covenants with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
The Bible indicates that all who believe (Jew or Gentile) become SPIRIT Israel SPIRIT Jews.
Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV)
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
How can you say the scripture passages are unbiblical???
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
Gentile believers were being brought into the spiritual body of Israel
Not Biblical.
The Bible states...
Ephesians 2
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
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That is all.....
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John Hale
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The first prefiguring of a rapture is in the person of Enoch who "was no more for the Lord took him."
And another prefiguring is as the Apostle Paul alludes to in the "baptism" analogies from the OT in the Ark of Noah. We could apply it to the ark of Moses (the basket he was hidden in as a baby). Or the Lord's escape to Egypt from Herod.
The more we put the Bible under the spyglass the microscope and the telescope for that matter... the more we realize God is telling the same story over and over in different ways.
The Bible is a book of sevens (without a doubt) but it is essentially digital (a book of twos) whereas digital to us means ons and offs in the word of God it means contrasts and opposites.
Life / death
Truth / untruth
Light / darkness
Height / depth
True Messiah / false messiah
And God / devil even though not equals they are opposites.
One thing might be overlooked here... God is alone in eternity existing without beginning or end. And no creation or created being could ever be on par with God but God in the person of Jesus Christ came down to the level of the created beings. We "get that" with regard to mankind. But we overlook that this meant he was vulnerable to the spirits in the world as well...
...why rather than charging headlong into a murderous crowd seeking his death (like superman against bullets) he slipped out (through the crowd, but he slipped out nevertheless).
The limitations of John 5:19ff are not those of inability but restraint. And this also meant making himself as a man as vulnerable to the things and the beings that all mankind are vulnerable to (even though as the last Adam having the sinless nature of Adam before the fall).
Each and every one of his escapes from the jowls of death was prophetic of the rapture.
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yahsway
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Thank you brother Hale, but sadly some here only take from the New and disregard the Old. The old Test is the foundation.
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John Hale
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For example, the rapture is not only a NT idea.
Isaiah 26:19-20 (NIV)
19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.
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John Hale
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yep
I was for the sake of argument using just the NT.
It is a dangerous thing to try to introduce a dichotomy between the Testaments.
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yahsway
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The foundation is the OT Scriptures. Why else would the Bereans that Paul preached to searched out the OT scriptures to see if what he said was truth?
Paul wrote two thirds of the New Test and quoted a lot from the Torah and Tenach(Old test scriptures)and Yeshua is there from Gen-Rev.
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John Hale
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If there were no merit in this interpretation...
and it's all...
Galatians 3:28 (NASB95)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
then why mention:
Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
or
Romans 9:6 (NASB95)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
or
Romans 11:26 (NASB95)
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
or
Galatians 6:16 (NASB95)
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
or
Philippians 3:3 (NASB95)
3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
???
Every one is a passage quoted from the New Testament...
I mean why would Paul want to risk gunking up the doctrine that the Church is totally separate from Israel physically and spiritually? And so many times and in so many ways... Why?
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John Hale
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Gentile believers were being brought into the spiritual body of Israel (Paul's analogy to the Bride of Christ ties into the OT analogy and over all scripture context).
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John Hale
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Jesus is the Lord of the OT.
John 8:58 (NASB95)
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
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Carol Swenson
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You quote from the Old Testament; I'll quote from the New Testament.
For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
2 Corinthians 11:2
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John Hale
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Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
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