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»	Christian Message Boards » Bible Studies » Exposing False Teaching » Where in the world did Rick Warren get so far off track? (Page 2)

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Topic: Where in the world did Rick Warren get so far off track?

WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

posted

American Abortion Counter

http://www.biblehelp.org/abortioncnt.htm

41,476,523 MURDERED INNOCENT UN-BORN AMERICANS x (200 millilitres of blood or 6 ½ fluid ounces)/128 US fluid ounces =

2,106,229 Gallons of INNOCENT UNBORN AMERICAN BLOOD.

Down the drain reprocessed then back into the drinking water of the people.

No longer does the blood cry up from the ground but from the very water we drink.

Lev.17

[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:

Gen.4

[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |

Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

posted

quote:
Originally posted by artm:
Hi, I am new to this site and just want to to say hello to everyone here today.

Welcome to the forums artm.

quote:
Originally posted by artm:Psalm 106:37-38 Declares: Yea,they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood,Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters.

The land was polluted with the blood of the innocent children. And this from those who claimed to be people of God.

Abortion is the sacrifice of innocent babies to the idols of pleasure, And the idols of lust and fornication.

This is indeed a very powerful word. That is exactly what happens with abortion, and as you say, every guilty person involved, will have to stand in judgment. We can't stress this too strongly -

quote:
America will face the judgement of God for its murder of millions of unborn babies every year.

Every abortion doctor, every nurse who aids in abortion,and every woman and every man will stand before a Holy God and give account for murder.

Every politician,And every voter who helped put these people in office knowing their support of abortion will give account also.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Posts: 400 | Registered: Oct 2006 | IP: Logged |

artm
Advanced Member
Member # 6243

posted

Hi, I am new to this site and just want to to say hello to everyone here today.

I would also like to respond to a post I saw on the topic of abortion.

Please be patient as I try and respond to certain remarks made on this topic.

Someone mentioned being a " conservative Christiann verses a liberal Christian. How about a " Biblical Christian."

One who bases all opions from the Word of God. A Christian is one who has accepted Christ as their personal Saviour, And who accepts the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.

someone said they don't know what God thinks about abortion.

Please allow me to try and explain what God says about abortion,according to the Bible.

First,Its hard for me to imagine Jesus condoning abortion today. It goes against everything that Christ stands for.

How can we say the Love of God and abortion in the same breath ? Where is compassion in abortion.?

Psalm 106:37-38 Declares: Yea,they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood,Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters.

The land was polluted with the blood of the innocent children. And this from those who claimed to be people of God.

Abortion is the sacrifice of innocent babies to the idols of pleasure, And the idols of lust and fornication.

Exodus 20:13 Declares: Thou shalt not kill.

This is actually translated, " Thou shalt do no murder"

Abortion is an act of murder. It is the murder of unborn babies, the shedding of innocent blood.

Leviticus 19:18 Declares: Love thy neighbour as thyself. Where is there any love in the act of abortion.? Where is the love in the slaughter of some four million unborn babies a year in America.?

If Christ is the ultimate example for the Christian, Where does he fit in the act of abortion?

I personally do not understand how one can be a Bible believing Christian,and pro-abortion at the same time.

America will face the judgement of God for its murder of millions of unborn babies every year.

Every abortion doctor, every nurse who aids in abortion,and every woman and every man will stand before a Holy God and give account for murder.

Every politician,And every voter who helped put these people in office knowing their support of abortion will give account also.

The scriptures exhort us to " not be partakers in other mens sins."

2-Chronciles says, " If my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray,And seek my face, And turn from their wicked ways,Then will I hear from heaven and will heal their land."

I know that for many this is a hard word,and some will reject it,And that is ok, For one day soon God will set everything in order.

God bless you all.
art

Posts: 50 | From: New York | Registered: Dec 2006 | IP: Logged |

ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
QB]
It is no wonder that Andy is deceived and unable to understand context. The UK is pretty darkened as far as the light of Believers, just as devoid of the light of Christ, as the US is becoming. Like the 5 foolish virgins, there is no oil in their lamps, even though they speak the name of Christ in the dead churches, their hearts are not filled with the Spirit of God.

DECEIVED? ABOUT WHAT? THE CONTEXT AND SPECIFIC MEANING OF A SINGLE BOOK?

I give up. I'm fed up with Caretaker's useless back biting comments. You bring nothing to the discussion and simply make personal comments, accusations and insults. I was pretty restrained earlier after being compared to Hitler and yet this continues. Instead of providing anything you just cut n paste from whatever internet site first comes up in a google list.

You just sit in your insular little worlds and continue to talk - all you hear coming back is the sound of your own voice relflected from inside your head. Rome = bad. Anyone who disagrees with me on anything is bad. Therefore they are under the influence of Rome. He is also from the UK so UK = bad. Therefore UK is under the influence of Rome.

God bless both of you - you certianly need it.

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Cheers

Andy

Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006 | IP: Logged |

Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Your support for abortion is contrary to the Word of God, Rose, and is contrary to the true love of Christ. It is not the Lord Jesus Christ whom you represent in your adament support for the murder of babies.

John 10:10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
According to you and your belief. Why do you use this scripture about Jesus coming so that people can have eternal life? What does this have to do with a fetus?

Why do you want this verse to apply to fetuses so bad? Why? A human fetus is not even a person.

And I am not Rose.

Because Rose it is not the Lord Jesus Christ that leads women to butcher their babies on the alter of convenience.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

posted

quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
When my mom was pregnant with me, the doctor told her to have an abortion, because I was dead. Thank God, that my mom prayed and had peace that I would be born alive. I am 54 years old and still kicking.

This is the chilling reality of what could happen if women don't protect the rights of their unborn child. This isn't an isolated case by any means. I have even heard of cases of children being born because of a brutal rape, and they are so happy their mother wasn't pressured into aborting them.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847

posted

The Bible makes it clear that an unborn person is still a person to God. Before Jacob and Esau was born, God told their mom that they were fighting in the womb. God said in several places in the Bible that He knew us before we were born. Killing a unborn baby is still killing a human being. Women have a choice. They can choose not to have unprotected sex. When my mom was pregnant with me, the doctor told her to have an abortion, because I was dead. Thank God, that my mom prayed and had peace that I would be born alive. I am 54 years old and still kicking. Pro choice is not able choosing to have a baby or not, it is all about having the right to kill a baby, because the child is incovienent for the mother. Far too many women use abortion as birth control. We are all here because our moms gave us a chance to be born. We as women owe the same consideration to our un born babies.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003 | IP: Logged |

Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Your support for abortion is contrary to the Word of God, Rose, and is contrary to the true love of Christ. It is not the Lord Jesus Christ whom you represent in your adament support for the murder of babies.

John 10:10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

According to you and your belief. Why do you use this scripture about Jesus coming so that people can have eternal life? What does this have to do with a fetus?

Why do you want this verse to apply to fetuses so bad? Why? A human fetus is not even a person.

And I am not Rose.

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

QB]Paul is telling us because of their sinfulness they deny the truth that God is the creator which is clearly seen by what He has made; they are under the wrath of God. Adam Clarke's Commentary stated “Rom 1:18 all the pagan nations were utterly corrupt and deserved this threatened punishment.”

Because of their evil –sinfulness- they hindered the truth, concealed the truth of God from men. It is an indictment on them. Paul is making a statement of guilt in rejecting the true God, not affirming their original belief.

Now, as we read the next verses we can understand why. Romans 1:21-25: “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator— who is forever praised. Amen.”

They the pagan nations, is the context of the commentary.

God bless your stand Dale. Most Anglicans will be led through the nose by Rome, as they unify the world's religions.

It is no wonder that Andy is deceived and unable to understand context. The UK is pretty darkened as far as the light of Believers, just as devoid of the light of Christ, as the US is becoming. Like the 5 foolish virgins, there is no oil in their lamps, even though they speak the name of Christ in the dead churches, their hearts are not filled with the Spirit of God.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810

posted

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, the text of the link doesn't really support what you are saying.

Reading through the entire page, it is an examination of the use of Romans 1 and Acts 17 by Daniel Kikawa in a video regarding belief in God in ancient japanese culture. Romans 1:18 is examined in this context, but the only part that even touches on the judgement of nations is the single line quote from another commentary. In fact, when we read a larger excerp from the text we find that the author of the link was not talking about the judgement of nations opposed to the judgement of individuals. The thrust is still that individuals are subject to God's wrath rather than nations as asserted above:

quote:
[QB]Paul is telling us because of their sinfulness they deny the truth that God is the creator which is clearly seen by what He has made; they are under the wrath of God. Adam Clarke's Commentary stated “Rom 1:18 all the pagan nations were utterly corrupt and deserved this threatened punishment.”

Because of their evil –sinfulness- they hindered the truth, concealed the truth of God from men. It is an indictment on them. Paul is making a statement of guilt in rejecting the true God, not affirming their original belief. Now, as we read the next verses we can understand why. Romans 1:21-25: “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator— who is forever praised. Amen.”

The Bible presents to us that ALL Gentiles-did not glorify God- they intentionally rejected the truth- they did not give thanks to God – and became futile in their thinking, their hearts were darkened which led to idolatry, exchanging the glory of God for images. They were void of any true knowledge. What Kikawa does not understand is that the Gentiles worshipped the creation and when further corruption set in, things made by their own hands - these are what their gods are named after.

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Cheers

Andy

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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Paul is telling us because of their sinfulness they deny the truth that God is the creator which is clearly seen by what He has made; they are under the wrath of God. Adam Clarke's Commentary stated “Rom 1:18 all the pagan nations were utterly corrupt and deserved this threatened punishment.”

http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo26.htm

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810

posted

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I have never heard of Godwin's Law in action; and do not care to know anything about it.

Well, I'm going to tell you anyway - Godwin's law states that internet discussions about key topics (like abortion) will always end in one person calling the other a Nazi or saying they are like Hitler. Sad to see it still applies to Christian forums.

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB]
As for Romans 1, I have not misinterpreted it meaning, once Yahweh has judged enough single individuals, the nation is automatically judged.
References to the parts of scripture you are using to support that, with a bit of commentary please. If you cut n paste from another source, can you quote the source as well. Romans 1 and 2 says nothing about nations at all, so I assume you are basing this on another chapter or book.

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB]

quote:
This is different though from saying that banning abortion right now is the best course of action that we could take. Would banning it now without the support of a large percentage of the population be the best long term action?
I based my thought’s on this statement.

Abortion for the child of Yahweh can never be the correct action!

The goal would be to see abortions drop to zero yes? If abortion were to be banned tomorrow this would not happen - abortions took place before Roe vs Wade and they will take place after a ban IF it is not properly thought through and the public are educated as to why this must happen. Otherwise you will end up with just as many abortions happening as before and the ban would be short lived as it would be unpopular and quickly overturned.

Like I said - politics, sociology etc must be considered when talking about a ban.

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Cheers

Andy

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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

I have never heard of Godwin's Law in action; and do not care to know anything about it.

But I do have an understanding of the Law of Yahweh and His heart, and I know that He is totally unconcerned with what society deems expectable. ie. Abortion

As for Romans 1, I have not misinterpreted it meaning, once Yahweh has judged enough single individuals, the nation is automatically judged.

quote:
This is different though from saying that banning abortion right now is the best course of action that we could take. Would banning it now without the support of a large percentage of the population be the best long term action?

I based my thought’s on this statement.

Abortion for the child of Yahweh can never be the correct action!

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810

posted

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Andy and Itty-Bitty Girl, you both would have gotten along well with Hitler.

Murder of the innocent with no remorse, no social out cry agaist evil.

Godwin's Law in action it seems. Given just how offensive you've just been, I'll try and stay measured in my reply.

Have you even bothered to read my post? Have you bothered to think about it? Or are you simply looking and seeing that it is not a straight agreement with exactly what you say then I must be a spawn-of-satan-baby-killing-abortionist-murderer.

I seem to remember in the thread regarding Israel you had an issue with finding boxes to put people in. You seem to have two boxes - one is source-of-light-must-agree-exactly-with-me and the other, into which everyone else is put is spawn-of-satan-loves-killing-babies. Independent thought beyond this does seem hard to you, but stick with it, maybe something will penetrate through the fog.

If you had bothered to read any of my posts you would find that I believe abortion is a sin. No debate on that issue.

I did reject two other points - one, the misuse of Romans 1 to make the suggestion that America as a nation is subject to some kind of old testament judgement and two, that banning abortion right now without the support of the majority of the population wouldn't be bad in the long term.

If you wish to continue the debate on the two points above, please continue. If you just want to make offensive remarks and leave your brain in neutral go an watch Oprah and shout at the TV.

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Cheers

Andy

Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006 | IP: Logged |

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Andy and Itty-Bitty Girl, you both would have gotten along well with Hitler.

Murder of the innocent with no remorse, no social out cry agaist evil.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810

posted

Right, back now at my desk at home with a decent broadband connection and a good 40 minutes before my next conf call so I can write a proper reply.

Romans, as you know, is a letter from Paul. Therefore, while you can take single lines and use it to support an argument, to read it in the whole you will find a subtly different meaning. Indeed, as you read through to Romans 2 you find that Paul then references the passages before to make points about hypocracy when judging others

First, Romans 1 doesn't mention nations at all - the thrust of it is very specific and personal. It does not predict a judgement against a nation for the actions of its citizen.

Paul is talking about those that know of God, but do nothing about it. Verse 18 clearly states this:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness ;
Verse 20 then says that for people who know who God is and yet turn away from him, there can be no excuse:

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

For these people, God then lets them get on with their sinful ways, described between verses 21 and 32.

At the beginning of chapter 2, Paul then is condemning those that judge others while undertaking the same sins as those they are judging, drawing a parallel between those people and the ones mentioned earlier who have rejected God and who God has abandoned to their sinful ways:

1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

In verse 5 we see that being a person described in the previous chapter ('impenitent', that is someone who has not asked for forgiveness) will store up wrath for the day of judgement.

It's a long leap from these two chapters to say that God is judging America. Ivyleager used language to imply that God was preventing sin within the country and has pulled back, thus judging everyone within that country and stopping them from sinning.

"IMHO, it is apparent that God has indeed abandoned America, at long last. America abandoned Him many years ago, contrary to popular belief, and He has lifted His restraint of evil and left us to freefall in our burning lusts and passions."

This implies a collective judgement rather than a personal one. To say that about America would mean that you guys in the US (me being exempt by living in the UK) are also judged. Romans 1 & 2 is personal - those that deny God are storing wrath up for themselves and are left to their sinful ways - those that come to God for forgiveness are helped by God to come away from sin.

Things I suspect are no different today than they have ever been. There is still as much murder, theft, lying, rape, sexual immorality etc as there has ever been. It takes different guises now (e.g. legalised abortion) than it used to and we are tolerant of different sins than we used to be. For example, during the middle ages (before America was colonised), murder, rape and prostitution was far more prevalent and acceptable than it is today. In contrast, homosexuality was punished severly. Now, society is tolerant of homosexuality but not murder - different sins, different times.

So it is with abortion. This does not make it any less of a sin, or mean that it is not serious. This is different though from saying that banning abortion right now is the best course of action that we could take. Would banning it now without the support of a large percentage of the population be the best long term action?

--------------------
Cheers

Andy

Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006 | IP: Logged |

Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

Your support for abortion is contrary to the Word of God, Rose, and is contrary to the true love of Christ. It is not the Lord Jesus Christ whom you represent in your adament support for the murder of babies.

John 10:10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

I would suggest that IF you are over twelve years of age Rose, and IF you have any possibility of possessing any love for Christ, that you examine the TRUTH of abortion and the detriment it causes to women of all ages.

http://abortiontv.com/

" In September, 1993, Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse with thirteen years or experience, was assigned by her nursing agency to an abortion clinic. Since Nurse Shafer considered herself "very pro-choice," she didn’t think this assignment would be a problem. She was wrong. This is what Nurse Shafer saw:

"I stood at the doctor’s side and watched him perform a partial-birth abortion on a woman who was six months pregnant. The baby’s heartbeat was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen. The doctor delivered the baby’s body and arms, everything but his little head. The baby’s body was moving.his little fingers were clasping together. He was kicking his feet. The doctor took a pair of scissors and inserted them into the back of the baby’s head, and the baby’s arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall. Then the doctor opened the scissors up. Then he stuck the high-powered suction tube into the hole and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby was completely limp. I never went back to the clinic. But I am still haunted by the face of that little boy. It was the most perfect, angelic face I have ever seen."

Here's an excerpt from Dr. David Brewer's experience when he performed abortions.

"I remember as we made the incision in the uterus, to see the baby move underneath the sack of membranes as the Caesarian incision was made before the doctor broke the water. The thought came to me, my God, that’s a person! At that instant he broke the water and I had that terrible pain in my heart. He delivered the baby and I couldn’t even touch it. I wasn’t much of an assistant; I just stood there and the reality of what was going on finally began to seep in to my callused brain and heart. We simply took that little baby that was making little sounds and was moving and kicking and set it on the table in a cold stainless steel bowl. Every time I would look over, while we were repairing the incision in the uterus, I would see that little person kicking and moving in that bowl. It kicked and moved less and less as time went on. I can remember going over and looking at that baby when we were done with surgery and the baby was still alive. You could see the chest moving as the heart beat and the baby would try and take a little breath."

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
That would included taking cocaine or any other addicting drug, being a prostitute, having sex with animals, having sex with people of their same sex if they chose, or if am 10 years old I have the natural-born “right to choose” as a citizen of America I can be a prostitute boy or girl.

First of all: I may not agree with what they do, but they should have the right to choose what they do for themselves, and they should have those rights to choose in all countries, not just America.

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
I feel sadly that you are coming against us born-again Christians, and angrily calling us traditionalists, Glacialis Caerul Femella, but I still love you just the same.

Second of all: I am a born-again Christian myself, and I am not coming against any person that is either Christian or non-Christian, but I am coming against traditionalist beliefs that people claim to be biblical and Christian, but in reality, those beliefs are not even biblical.

Anyway, why have you not answered my question about the Chimeras? They came from two embryos fused into one fetus, so how can they be?

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
I would suggest that IF you are over twelve years of age Rose, and IF you have any possibility of possessing any love for Christ, that you examine the TRUTH of abortion and the detriment it causes to women of all ages.

Third of all: God’s truth is in the word of God; I don’t have to look any further, I don’t need to look at someone else’s opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Has any one else noticed how Itty-Bitty Girl keeps referring to an unborn child as a "fetus" to lessen the impact of her and the pro-choice position.

Forth of all: A human fetus is a fetus. I know that the human embryo or fetus is alive, but it is still a MASS of human cells, and it is NOT A PERSON, not a human being. I do not believe that embryos or fetuses are people; they are just the mere origins of people(just as I believe that an unhatched egg is not a chicken; but it is the mere origin of a chicken). Chicken fetuses are not even hatched, but chickens are hatched: just as human fetuses are not even born, but people are born. Human fetuses are developing into people, but they are not already people.

If embryos are truly people with souls, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin started off as two embryos that fused together in the womb to make one person. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are Chimeras two people?

quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Wouldn't it had been a tragic if God had looked at Saul of Tarsus and said " it is not my right to try to change that person. I mean he has the right to live as he wants even if it means killing my believers. I know Peter doesn't think like Saul/Paul but he's not the only one on Earth.

Fifth of all: God’s believers are PEOPLE, and FETUSES are NOT PEOPLE. And I have not seen anything in the bible to prove that fetuses are people. So if it is your own judgment that abortion is sin, or murder, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE.

quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
So go on you pro-choice followers and keep killing the 'fetus' and living as it means nothing. It is your choice and thankfully I will never have to answer for it or try to grovel my excuse for it.

Sixth of all: That is according to you and your non-biblical “Christian” traditionalist belief.

Do the “'fetus' and living” have the same potential as the “fetus in fetu”, the fetus that was killing its normally developing fetal twin, and if left inside would kill both the fetus and its twin?

Do the “'fetus' and living” have the same potential as the fetus that was killing its mother and if left inside would kill the both fetus and its mother?

I wonder why I haven’t heard pro-lifers mention these types of fetal cases.

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
If we vote in a president because he upholds abortion and same-sex marriage, if we sign petitions approving abortion, or if we publicly speak about supporting abortion,thus influencing others, we are contributing to society as a whole and bringing judgment on our land.

Seventh of all: According to you, not God.

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments upon any nation that turns against the Laws of Yahweh.

ahar if you can not understand the clarity of Romans 1, you are truly as blind as Itty-Bitty Girl

Eighth of all: You sir, do not speak for God when you say those things, and your opinion does not matter to me. Your opinion is not God’s truth. Your statement is according you, Dale. I see no biblical evidence to support your claim that abortion is sin, let alone murder, so that is your OPINION. You have stated no biblical evidence in the New Testament that God’s judgment is against an ENTIRE land for the sin that people have committed on it.

God's judgment is against the individual, not the whole land, what ahar said is biblical. When the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather those who offend God and practice lawlessness, the wicked will be cast into the fire where they will be in anguish as INDIVIDUAL UNREPENTANT SINNERS, NOT LANDS, and also when the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather the righteous, the righteous will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 13:36-43).

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
If you support abortion then you are guilty of the INNOCENT BLOOD of millions of little babies.

Ninth of all: it is according to you that fetuses are innocent blood, but I see no biblical evidence as proof of this as God’s truth.

quote:
Originally posted by IveyLeaguer:
IMHO, it is apparent that God has indeed abandoned America, at long last. America abandoned Him many years ago, contrary to popular belief, and He has lifted His restraint of evil and left us to freefall in our burning lusts and passions.

Tenth of all: Abandoned America? I believe that in order to “abandon” something, you have to “possess” it first. I don’t even believe that God even possessed America. I don’t even believe that there was ever a “restraint of evil” in place.

Were the “Christian” traditionalists who stole the land from the Native-Americans, who lied about founding this country truly God ordained? No, they appointed themselves as leaders. A group that maintains their so-called “power” through force does not necessarily mean that they are a group put there by God. I do not believe that these people were Christians; I believe they were a bunch of murderers, paupers and thieves; they even condoned non-biblical practices like chattel slavery, they had no love in their hearts.

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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

IveyLeaguer
[thumbsup2]

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

IveyLeaguer
Community Member
Member # 5493

posted

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Homosexuality is a judgment from Yahweh on the Nation that does not see fit to acknowledge God (America is being judged, there is no doubt) ...

God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts…
God handed them over to degrading passions….
God handed them over to their undiscerning mind…

Judgment is not coming, it is here. Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments ...

IMHO, it is apparent that God has indeed abandoned America, at long last. America abandoned Him many years ago, contrary to popular belief, and He has lifted His restraint of evil and left us to freefall in our burning lusts and passions.

And I would not quibble with the characterization of homosexuality, abortion, feminism, etc., as "escalating judgments", provided they are not confused with THE judgment of America, a consummate judgment that is to come, which I fear awaits us at the end of the present freefall.

[Cross]

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"Because narrow is the gate, and hard is the way that leads to life, and few indeed are the ones who find it."

Posts: 8 | From: Dahlonega, Georgia | Registered: Feb 2006 | IP: Logged |

Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

Proverbs 6:
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

If you support abortion then you are guilty of the INNOCENT BLOOD of millions of little babies.

Thee are 750,000 females per year that are NOT given the choice of what to do with their own bodies. Their bodies are ripped-apart as others make the choice that they are to be murdered.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. (Romans 1

Homosexuality is a judgment from Yahweh on the Nation that does not see fit to acknowledge God (America is being judged, there is no doubt)

God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts…
God handed them over to degrading passions….
God handed them over to their undiscerning mind…

Judgment is not coming, it is here

Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments upon any nation that turns against the Laws of Yahweh.

ahar if you can not understand the clarity of Romans 1, you are truly as blind as Itty-Bitty Girl

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810

posted

I'm on a train traveling home at the moment (the 15.05 Leeds to London GNER train - free wireless internet access!) so have a very slow connection so I'll keep this brief and try and answer more fully later.

God's judgement is against an individual, not a land. I seem to remember (will look up later) that the Romans quote you gave refers to the evil that people do to themselves and society at large through their own actions - i.e. if you do bad things it degrades the whole of society.

This is very different to bringing a judgement on our land - that kind of statement brings up images of blaming Hurricane Katrina on the immorality of the inhabitants of New Orleans

--------------------
Cheers

Andy

Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006 | IP: Logged |

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

ahar,

Romans chapter1….

For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous by faith will live."

The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.

Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;

for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.

While claiming to be wise, they became fools

and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.

They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,

and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.

They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips

and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents.

They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Yahweh has said: A curse causeless does not come (Proverbs 26:2).

I did not bring this curse upon you; you brought this curse upon yourselves because of the evil you are practicing.

Yahweh is dealing with people individually, but Yahweh is still dealing with people collectively…

Within the context of the Church and as Nations

quote:
ahar God doesn't do the Old Testament plague thing any more

The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. (Romans 1

Homosexuality is a judgment from Yahweh on the Nation that does not see fit to acknowledge God

God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts…
God handed them over to degrading passions….
God handed them over to their undiscerning mind…

Judgment is not coming, it is here

Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments upon any nation that turns against the Laws of Yahweh.

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

posted

quote:
Originally posted by ahar:

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening.
Judgement on our land? What rubbish. The judgement is of us, not the land. Saved or not saved, heaven or hell, book of life or not.

God doesn't do the Old Testament plague thing any more - it's personal.

The decision on whether to ban abortion is not a biblical one. Abortion is a sin, however if we were to ban all sinful things then adultry would be treated in a similar way to murder and telling a lie or swearing at your parents would gain you the same time in jail as stealing. Banning abortion requires a discussion mixing public policy, evangelism techniques, morals & ethics and sociology. [/QB]

If we vote in a president because he upholds abortion and same-sex marriage, if we sign petitions approving abortion, or if we publicly speak about supporting abortion,thus influencing others, we are contributing to society as a whole and bringing judgment on our land.

Sodom and Gamorrah did personal acts of immorality, but because the cities went into moral decline and collectively upheld corruption, they were seriously judged by God.

God is slow to anger, but his patience will run out. The Bible is a warning for us to-day also. Sin hasn't gone away since Moses' or Noah's time. It is still here and thriving.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

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reflectingtheson
Advanced Member
Member # 5083

posted

Has any one else noticed how Itty-Bitty Girl keeps referring to an unborn child as a "fetus" to lessen the impact of her and the pro-choice position.

Do they not know the true definitions of their words.

First lets look at embryo since they view that as a mass of cells:

Main Entry: em·bryo
Pronunciation: 'em-brE-"O
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural em·bry·os
Etymology: Medieval Latin embryon-, embryo, from Greek embryon, from en- + bryein to swell; akin to Greek bryon catkin
1 a archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching b : an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing HUMAN individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception.

Now their most used word to deflect the truth of their position:

Main Entry: fe·tus
Pronunciation: 'fE-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful -- more at FEMININE
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing Human from usually two months after conception to birth.

I know this is not going to change the minds of the masses who can not bear to stand for something, but this is for those who can "see and hear" so that they are more informed.

Wouldn't it had been a tragic if God had looked at Saul of Tarsus and said " it is not my right to try to change that person. I mean he has the right to live as he wants even if it means killing my believers. I know Peter doesn't think like Saul/Paul but he's not the only one on Earth.

So go on you pro-choice followers and keep killing the 'fetus' and living as it means nothing. It is your choice and thankfully I will never have to answer for it or try to grovel my excuse for it.

Until the end of this age . . .Keep looking up!

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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

posted

Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The physiological, moral and psychological damage to a woman may pale in comparison to the result of causing a grievous nature to overtake God. Would we be mocking and scoffing God by going against His own blueprint for creation?

Even substance abuse, hating our neighbour or shoplifting doesn't come against the very core of God's perfect design of creating human life. Yes, Proverbs 31:8,9 sums it up perfectly. We have to speak up for the little innocents, who cannot speak up for themselves.

Proverbs 31:8,9 “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.”

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

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ahar
Advanced Member
Member # 5810

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening. [/QB]

Judgement on our land? What rubbish. The judgement is of us, not the land. Saved or not saved, heaven or hell, book of life or not.

God doesn't do the Old Testament plague thing any more - it's personal.

The decision on whether to ban abortion is not a biblical one. Abortion is a sin, however if we were to ban all sinful things then adultry would be treated in a similar way to murder and telling a lie or swearing at your parents would gain you the same time in jail as stealing. Banning abortion requires a discussion mixing public policy, evangelism techniques, morals & ethics and sociology.

--------------------
Cheers

Andy

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

I would suggest that IF you are over twelve years of age Rose, and IF you have any possibility of possessing any love for Christ, that you examine the TRUTH of abortion and the detriment it causes to women of all ages.

http://abortiontv.com/

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A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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IveyLeaguer
Community Member
Member # 5493

posted

quote:
Where in the world did Rick Warren get so far off track?

'Officially', it was at Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth in California about 1978 or 1979. But chances are he was 'off track' well before then.

[Cross]

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"Because narrow is the gate, and hard is the way that leads to life, and few indeed are the ones who find it."

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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

posted

I feel sadly that you are coming against us born-again Christians, and angrily calling us traditionalists, Glacialis Caerul Femella, but I still love you just the same.

All I can say is that when, I became infilled with the Holy Spirit, the veil was lifted off of my eyes and all decisions of the flesh were turned over to God, and my body was no longer under my control.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

quote:
Itty-Bitty Girl,

I am a pro-choice Christian Democrat. I believe that American women are citizens of America and should have unlimited rights, and if America is really the “land of the free”, then a women’s right to an abortion should not even be a debatable issue. I believe that women should have the natural-born “right to choose” what to do with their own bodies.

Do you not realize how irrational and how unintelligent that statement is, not just from the standpoint of scripture but just simple intelligence?

According to your statement because someone is an American citizen, they should be free to do anything they please to their own bodies.

That would included taking cocaine or any other addicting drug, being a prostitute, having sex with animals, having sex with people of their same sex if they chose, or if am 10 years old I have the natural-born “right to choose” as a citizen of America I can be a prostitute boy or girl.

Your thinking is sad.

I wonder if your glad your mother did not chose to butcher you?

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
This baby could be delivered and given up for adoption.
It could be aborted, also, if that is the woman’s choice.

Instead in Wichita, Kansas, Dr. Tiller delivers this size of baby down the birth canal until just the top of the head remains in the birth canal, then he stabs the baby in the back of the head and sucks the brains out.

This is partial Birth Abortion, and is being committed on babies just the same size or bigger as the one in the picture.

These babies have their own bodies but they are not being allowed CHOICE.

If the fetus were a born person, then it would not be the woman’s choice. The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.

quote:
Psalm 139:13 FOR YOU CREATED MY INMOST BEING; YOU KNIT ME TOGETHER IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

To me, the scriptures cited prove my point exactly- that fetuses are not people, but they are simply the origins of people, or masses.
In the womb, a human is developing, being formed, being “knit” together, or being made into a person. They are not being formed into people outside the womb, but on the inside of the womb.
Outside of the womb, the child is already formed and can live without the resources of its mother’s body. A birthed child is already developed and is a person, but an unborn child(fetus) is not developed and is not a person, a fetus is merely developing from usually two months after conception to birth into a person, a person is a birthed child. I do not believe that fetuses are people; they are just the mere origins of people(just as I believe that an egg is not a chicken; but an egg is the origin of the chicken).

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
ANYONE WHO SUPPOTS ABORTION IS GUILTY as accesory to the pre-meditated murder of babies.

According to Drew and Drew’s opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.

Where in the bible does it say to limit a person’s freedoms and rights just because they do not believe as you do? What chapter is that in the New Testament?

Where in the bible does it say that abortion is sin? What chapter is that in the New Testament?

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Have you ever heard of "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"?

Each abortion kills a living baby.

Abortions kill fetuses, I have come to the conclusion that fetuses are not people, but fetuses do become people.

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
My youngest daughter was born at 30 weeks and weighed 2 lbs 14 ozs. I just performed her marriage ceremony a few weeks ago.

Babies in Wichita are being murdered which are larger and further developed than my daughter.

Well it was your daughter’s mother’s choice to give birth to her, wasn’t it? If this woman had the right to choose to NOT have an abortion, then why should another woman be denied her right to choose TO have one? Why should a person be required by law to carry a fetus that they do not want, and which may be putting their life at risk.

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Those who support abortion are either ignorant, or their hearts are hardened to the point that they do not care. Those who support abortion are in rebellion against God, and have the innocent blood of millions of babies on their hands.

According to Drew and Drew’s opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible. I don’t support the act of abortion, it is a sad thing, but I support a woman’s right to choose to either do the act or not.

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

This baby could be delivered and given up for adoption.

Instead in Wichita, Kansas, Dr. Tiller delivers this size of baby down the birth canal until just the top of the head remains in the birth canal, then he stabs the baby in the back of the head and sucks the brains out.

This is partial Birth Abortion, and is being committed on babies just the same size or bigger as the one in the picture.

These babies have their own bodies but they are not being allowed CHOICE.

ANYONE WHO SUPPOTS ABORTION IS GUILTY as accesory to the pre-meditated murder of babies.

Have you ever heard of "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"?

Each abortion kills a living baby.

My youngest daughter was born at 30 weeks and weighed 2 lbs 14 ozs. I just performed her marriage ceremony a few weeks ago.

Babies in Wichita are being murdered which are larger and further developed than my daughter.

Those who support abortion are either ignorant, or their hearts are hardened to the point that they do not care. Those who support abortion are in rebellion against God, and have the innocent blood of millions of babies on their hands.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Open your eyes and and your heart Rose and try not to continue to buy-into the Liberal pablum.

Why do you continue to call me “Rose”? “Rose” is not even my name, that is not even who I am. Can you just call me “Glacialis”? Anyway, I would rather be a Christian liberal than a Christian conservative.

What I believe does not matter when it comes to a woman’s rights. I am more about the rights of a woman.

I have a heart for women; a woman is a person. I have a heart enough not to infringe on the rights of women who want to have an abortion. Are you aware of the fact that there are people who do not believe as you do? If so, then why would you wish to infringe on their rights with your beliefs?

I believe that women should not have abortions, but I acknowledge the fact that I am not the only person on earth, and there are other people on earth who do not share the same beliefs as I do. A woman should have the right to choose for herself to either do the act or not. It is the woman's body, so it should be the woman's choice to do what she wishes with her own body. A woman should not be denied her right just because someone else decided that they knew what was best for her. I believe that American women are citizens of America and should have unlimited rights, and if America is really the “land of the free”, then women’s rights should not even be a debatable issue.

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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36

posted

Open your eyes and and your heart Rose and try not to continue to buy-into the Liberal pablum.

This is the second trimester baby and this is what you would continue to allow to be butchered:

This is the third trimester when the partial birth abortions are performed:

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
IttyBitty,

You say you do not know how God views abortion and you do not see it in the scriptures. Then I must tell you that you have scales on your eyes. Seeing but you do not see.

Hearing but you do not hear.

I believe this would be according to yahsway.

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Why wont you look at the abortion video? This is what you uphold. The right of women to make the choice to do what is shown in that video. Are you afraid you might "see"? would it somehow repulse you? I cant imagine why it would for someone who belives that its nothing more than a "fetus".

Every person should be entitled to his or her rights to choose what to do with their own body, I don’t like to look at graphic things. Graphic things kind of repulse me, anyway. I think that video would be a bit to graphic for me. I believe that I would say the same thing about a birth video, too.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:

Psalm 139:13 FOR YOU CREATED MY INMOST BEING; YOU KNIT ME TOGETHER IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

These scriptures support my belief that fetuses are not people, but they are simply the origins of people, or masses. To me, the scriptures cited prove my point exactly. In the womb, a human is developing, being formed, being “knit” together, or being made into a person. They are not being formed into people outside the womb, but on the inside of the womb. Outside of the womb, the child is already formed and can live without the resources of its mother’s body.

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:

He has a special plan for every seed that is planted. -

No act, not even abortion, can prevent God’s will from coming to pass. God is God. No one can limit His power; no one can tamper with His "special plan". NOT A SOUL.

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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738

posted

IttyBitty,

You say you do not know how God views abortion and you do not see it in the scriptures. Then I must tell you that you have scales on your eyes. Seeing but you do not see.

Hearing but you do not hear.

Why wont you look at the abortion video? This is what you uphold. The right of women to make the choice to do what is shown in that video. Are you afraid you might "see"? would it somehow repulse you? I cant imagine why it would for someone who belives that its nothing more than a "fetus".

Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004 | IP: Logged |

Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

Proverbs 31:8,9
“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.”

Okay, where is proof in the bible that the verses that you have cited apply to fetuses? Where is it? Where is it? Why can’t I find that in the bible? It appears to be all according to you, Dale. So it looks to me like you have inserted your own judgment into God’s word.

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

I feel very sorry for you if you can not distinguish how horrible the act of abortion is and how heartbreaking it is for Yahweh.

So because I do not see it in the bible, because it is NOT there, I have to “distinguish how horrible the act of abortion is and how heartbreaking it is for Yahweh” according to Dale? I believe that women should have the right to make that choice to either get an abortion, or not get an abortion. I don’t even know how God views abortion. I have not even seen in the bible how God views abortion.

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:

Please take a look at the link below before you address me again.

http://hispanicsforlife.suite550.com/dura_realidad/view.php?l=en

I saw the link. It can take you to a page where a person can “See shocking abortion video online now!” No, thanks.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:

fetus : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from conception to birth.

Psalm 51:5 For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

By the way, where did you get that definition of a fetus from?

I am pretty sure that definition is wrong because the fertilized egg turns into an embryo and which turns into a fetus. If the above definition were true, then Chimeras would not exist. A Chimera’s origin in the womb started off as two fertilized eggs, fraternal twins, which turned into two embryos that fused together and turned to one fetus in the womb, resulting in the mother giving birth to one child with two different DNA types.

A birthed child is already developed and is a person, but an unborn child(fetus) is not developed and is not a person, a fetus is merely developing from usually two months after conception to birth into a person, a person is a birthed child. I do not believe that fetuses are people; they are just the mere origins of people(just as I believe that an egg is not a chicken; but an egg is the origin of the chicken).

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Pretty plain that there is life there.

The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Senatar Obama is a really likeable guy and could charm the paint off of a wall, but be not deceived.

Follow God, not Senator Barack Obama.

I do not believe that senator Barack Obama is deceiving me, and I don’t even follow him, I follow God.

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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Itty-Bitty Girl

Proverbs 31:8,9
“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.”

I feel very sorry for you if you can not distinguish how horrible the act of abortion is and how heartbreaking it is for Yahweh.

Please take a look at the link below before you address me again.

http://hispanicsforlife.suite550.com/dura_realidad/

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. Fetuses are not even born, they are not even human beings. Fetuses don’t have natural-born rights to me, because in order to have natural-born rights, you have to be natural-born first, you have to be born, and fetuses are NOT even born, but the woman who carries the fetus is natural-born.

fetus : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from conception to birth.

Psalm 51:5 For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

Pretty plain that there is life there.

quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
I find that article offensive, because I love Senator Barack Obama and I just hate the way this article is portraying him, I hate the tasteless demonization of this Christian Democrat that this article disagrees with.

Senatar Obama is a really likeable guy and could charm the paint off of a wall, but be not deceived.

Follow God, not Senator Barack Obama.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Genesis 25 :23
And the Lord said to her:

"Two Nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be seperated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other
And the older shall serve the younger".

2 nations, two peoples(not fetus's)

2 peoples who would be citizens of 2 different Nations. Understand?

No, because that is your opinion. It is according to you, but not to God.

God addressed the fetuses in the woman’s womb as “nations”. God addressed them as “peoples” when He when he spoke of what the fetuses would be when they were out of the womb. Two peoples would be SEPARATED from her body at BIRTH. A woman does not give birth to fetuses, she gives birth to people, human beings. I do not believe that they are human beings in the womb; they are living fetuses in the womb.

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I wonder, would you be against abortion if the law stated it was illigal EXCEPT for the cases you cited? How many did the article say? 1 in every 500,000 cases?

I am for a woman’s right to choose to get an abortion. The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
And why would a woman with sicle cell who was so sick during her 1st pregnancy even consider becoming pregnant again?

I don’t know.

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I believe Life starts at conception.

I do too, but I do not believe that fetuses are human; they are just the mere origins of humans, developing into humans.

quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, THE BABE LEAPED IN MY WOMB FOR JOY.

God had a purpose for the babe in Elizabeths womb. He was John, to prepare the way of the Lord.

A fetus can be called a babe. A babe is a young child; a child can be either an unborn person or a recently born person. A fetus, an unborn person it is not a person, it is not a human being.

Main Entry: ba·by

Etymology: Middle English, from babe
1 a (1) : an extremely young child
Source cited: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/baby

Main Entry: child
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cild; akin to Gothic kilthei womb, and perhaps to Sanskrit jathara belly
1 a : an unborn or recently born person
Source cited: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/child

Although it can be called a child or babe, a fetus is an unborn person, and is not a person to me.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Sin is sin.

Where in the bible does it say that abortion is sin? What chapter is that in the New Testament?

Two eggs are fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into two fetal twins, but under some bizarre circumstances, one fetus ends up enclosed in its fetal twin’s abdomen and literally feeds off of the normal developing fetus’ resources and grows and will eventually kill the normally developing fetus if left inside of it. <This is not some sci-fi flick either: this is real life. >

So, what choice would God have one make?

Would God have one let the parasitic fetus live and continue to grow and kill its fetal twin, which will in turn kill the parasitic twin also(no more resources for it to feed off of), so that both fetuses die? Or would God have one kill the parasitic fetus, to preserve the life of its normally developing fetal host?

***

In some cases of a pregnancy, an egg is fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into a fetus, but due to the mother’s health condition, it is endangering the life of the woman that it is inside of, because the woman becomes unable to support the fetus’ needs, like in the case of “fetus in fetu”, and both woman and fetus may die if the fetus remains inside of the woman.

So, what choice would God have one make?

Would God have one let the parasitic fetus live and continue to grow and kill its mother, which will in turn kill the parasitic fetus also(no more resources for it to feed off of), so that both fetus and mother die? Or would God have one kill the parasitic fetus(abortion), to preserve the life of its mother and host?

A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body. She should have the right to choose.

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:

You say that a woman has the right to choose what she does with her own body. The issue isn't the woman's body. It's what is inside her body, a living fetus.

The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. Fetuses are not even born, they are not even human beings. Fetuses don’t have natural-born rights to me, because in order to have natural-born rights, you have to be natural-born first, you have to be born, and fetuses are NOT even born, but the woman who carries the fetus is natural-born.

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
These are God's creation that we are carrying. We must not tamper with his divine plan.-

So if the fertilized egg(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll) are truly human beings, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin in the womb started off as two fertilized eggs. Do Chimeras have two souls?

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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738

posted

Genesis 25 :23
And the Lord said to her:

"Two Nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be seperated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other
And the older shall serve the younger".

2 nations, two peoples(not fetus's)

2 peoples who would be citizens of 2 different Nations. Understand?

I wonder, would you be against abortion if the law stated it was illigal EXCEPT for the cases you cited? How many did the article say? 1 in every 500,000 cases?

And why would a woman with sicle cell who was so sick during her 1st pregnancy even consider becoming pregnant again?

You know, like it or not, the scripture does speak of our bodies being the Temple of God, that is if you are indeed a Christian. And the scriptures also say it is our reasonable service to render our bodies to Him and to take care of our bodies. Abortion is not itself without risks either. I am a nurse so I do know a little about anatomy and health care.

And as for reaping what we sow, we as a nation are seeing the effects of aborition right now. These past 30 years or so that abortion has been legal, these aborted babies could have been viable working citizens of our nation paying into the Social Security System and we wouldnt be having the political discussions about there being no Social Security retirement for those of us baby-boomers about to hit retirement age.

Abortion affects many different things. How many of those already aborted could maybe have found a cure for cancer, Aids or other diseases? Maybe there would have been some teachers/preachers of the Word of God in that aborted lot of innocents. We will never know. How sad. God must look on us and grieve on how some view life that He has given.

I believe Life starts at conception. Here is one reason why I believe this .

Luke 1:39-

Now Mary arouse in those days and went into the hill country with haste to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.

And it happened when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary that the Babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit..

Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb!

But why is this granted to me , that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, THE BABE LEAPED IN MY WOMB FOR JOY.

God had a purpose for the babe in Elizabeths womb. He was John, to prepare the way of the Lord.

The Lord Yeshua, who was in the womb of Mary.

The womb of a woman is precious. For it was created and designed by God for us to be fruitful, and to multiply.

Shalom

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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening.
According to you and your opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.

Sin is sin. God judged the world in Noah's time. He brought down Sodom and Gammorah because of their sinful ways. Well over 47,000,000 abortions have been performed in the States since 1973 - that is a staggering statistic.

web page

You say that a woman has the right to choose what she does with her own body. The issue isn't the woman's body. It's what is inside her body, a living fetus. She was given the chance to live, why would she cut off the chance for her unborn child to live? If there are birth defects, God will tke care of those during delivery. If they are serious, they will not survive birth or probably die shortly after. At least you know that you didn't take matters into your own hands. God is in control, whatever the outcome is.

These are God's creation that we are carrying. We must not tamper with his divine plan.-

Psalm 139:13 FOR YOU CREATED MY INMOST BEING; YOU KNIT ME TOGETHER IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.

Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

He has a special plan for every seed that is planted. -

Genesis 25: 20And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian. 21And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger

Romans 9: 11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening.

According to you and your opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Either it is a sin or it isn't. We can't sit on the fence.

Tell me the bible verse that says that abortion(killing a fetus or embryo) is a sin. Abortion is never okay in some cases, but I believe that women should have the right to choose; a fetus is a fetus nonetheless.

quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Pro-choicers don't give enough support and information on what happens after an abortion, in the way of deep depression, guilt and sometimes thoughts of suicide.

Women who have miscarriages have family and friends as a support, but with a woman who has an abortion, she made that choice and should be happy. It must be a very lonely and hopeless place to be in. After all, life or not , the nurturing side of this woman must realize that this 'mass', as some insist on calling it, had the potential to become a human life one day and it may haunt them the rest of their lives.

Did it have the same potential as the “fetus in fetu”, the fetus that was killing its normally developing fetal twin, and if left inside would kill both the fetus and its twin?

Did it have the same potential as the fetus that was killing its mother and if left inside would kill the both fetus and its mother? I wonder why I haven’t heard pro-lifers mention these types of fetal cases.

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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579

posted

quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Abortion in any shape,form or fashion in the eyes of Yahweh God is shedding innocent blood and is very displeasing to Yahweh.

That is what Dale says, Dale’s opinion, but is it in the bible? Where does it say that killing a fetus is “shedding innocent blood and is very displeasing to Yahweh.”?

I believe that there is a difference between abortion and murder. ABORTION is an act done INSIDE of a natural-born person’s body, INSIDE OF THE WOMB; while MURDER is an act done OUTSIDE of a natural-born person’s body, like what Cain did to Abel.

A crime like murdering a “six month old infant” or an “elderly mother” or even a “newborn” is OUTSIDE of a person’s body and is MURDER, it is fatal to natural-born people OUTSIDE OF THE WOMB. That is how I come to the conclusion that abortion not murder.

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