This is topic Where in the world did Rick Warren get so far off track? in forum Exposing False Teaching at Christian Message Boards.
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Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
Two articles below.
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Rick Warren/Barack Obama AIDS Partnership Must End,
Say Pro-Life Groups
MILWAUKEE, Wisconsin, Nov. 27 /Christian Newswire/ -- As those who have
worked to defend preborn children from the horrors of abortion in America
and who have stood uncompromisingly against the legalized slaughter of an
estimated 50 million Americans in the womb since 1973, we join with one
voice in expressing our indignation and opposition to Rick Warren's
welcoming of Senator Barack Obama to his church on December 1, 2006. Rick
Warren is bringing Senator Obama to his church to speak for his Global
Summit on AIDS and the church and to take an AIDS test in front of the
cameras at a noon press conference.
Senator Obama comes to Rick Warren's church believing that abortion should
be kept, "safe and legal". When Barack Obama campaigned for the U.S. Senate
in 2004, his wife wrote a fundraising letter for him that revealed his
support of partial-birth abortion. She said Obama's position is that the
"partial-birth abortion ban . . . is clearly unconstitutional and must be
overturned." Support of partial-birth abortion goes a lot farther than the
politicians who want abortion to be "safe and legal." Senator Obama actually
supports the barbaric practice of allowing abortionists to kill babies by
allowing them to be partially, born, their skulls punctured and their brains
sucked out. Further, he repeatedly opposed an anti-infanticide bill in the
state of Illinois that only passed after he left. Killing a child at any
stage of life is a violation of God's clear command, "Thou Shall Do No
Murder". In addition,Obama's solution to the growing AIDS crisis has been
and continues to be the !
widespread distribution of condoms, not chaste behavior as directed by the
Bible.
In the strongest possible terms, we oppose Rick Warren's decision to ignore
Senator Obama's clear pro-death stance and invite him to Saddleback Church
anyway. If Senator Obama cannot defend the most helpless citizens in our
country, he has nothing to say to the AIDS crisis. You cannot fight one evil
while justifying another. The evangelical church can provide no genuine help
for those who suffer from AIDS if those involved do not first have their
ethic of life firmly rooted in the Word of God. Accordingly, we call on
Pastor Rick Warren to rescind his invitation to Senator Obama immediately.
The millions of silent victims who have died because of the policies of
leaders like Senator Obama demand a response from those who believe that
life is a gift from God. The name of the seminar at which Senator Obama will
be appearing is entitled, " We Must Work Together." No, Mr. Warren, Mr.
Obama, we will never work with those can support the murder of babies in the
womb.
Phyllis Schlafly, President and Founder, Eagle Forum
Judie Brown, President, American Life League
Tim Wildmon, President American Family Association and American Family Radio
Joe Scheidler, President, Pro-Life Action League
Cheryl Sullenger, Operation Rescue
Matt Trewhella, Missionaries to the Preborn
Brannon Howse, President, Worldview Weekend, Christian Worldview Network
Janet Folger, President, Faith2Action
Peter LaBarbera, President, Americans for Truth
Greg Cunningham, President, Center for Bioethical Reform, Lake Forest,
California
Peggy Hamill, Director, Pro-Life Wisconsin
Cal Zastrow, Christian Action for the Preborn
Dr. Vic Eliason, President, VCY America Radio Network
Ingrid Schlueter, Host, Crosstalk Radio Talk Show
Kevin McCullough, Host, Musclehead Revolution, WMCA Radio
Chris Rosebrough, Capo Valley Church, San Juan Capistrano, California
Rev. Ken Silva, Apprising Ministries
Linda Harvey, President, Mission America
--------------------
Christian Newswire
To: National Desk
Contact: Kevin McCullough, WMCA Radio, New York City, 201-835-7803;
or
Ingrid Schlueter, VCY America Radio Network, Milwaukee, 414-881-5852
VCY America Radio Network
Forward this press release to another reporter or news producer
Christian Communication Network | 2020 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW | Washington
| DC | 20006
--------------------------------
Second article, go to
World Net Daily,
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53121
"Rick Warren called 'enabler and defender' of evil--
Megapastor's appearance in Syrian propaganda triggers criticism"
--------------------------------
This e-mail is from Mission America, and is intended for news and
educational purposes only.Not everything we send out is necessarily endorsed
by our organization.
Posted by teclar (Member # 6222) on
:
Totally agree with you, from Australia. Satan is a murderer as clearly stated by Jesus, and this bill is nothing more than carrying out Satan's plan to steal, kill and destroy. Furthermore, it is obvious that our adversary does not want Christians to have Godly offspring and so, we here in Australia, certainly disagree with this bill, and may the Lord open the pastor's eyes to see this as a major sin, otherwise, where does this pastor stand, really?
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
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I find that article offensive, because I love Senator Barack Obama and I just hate the way this article is portraying him, I hate the tasteless demonization of this Christian Democrat that this article disagrees with. I believe that it is good that the man chose to speak about the AIDS crisis to this church. And I do not like the hatred that I see in that hateful article.
I see this article as a right-wing bitter effort to demonize Democrats.
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
In the strongest possible terms, we oppose Rick Warren's decision to ignore
Senator Obama's clear pro-death stance and invite him to Saddleback Church
anyway.
Pro-choice does not mean “pro-death” to me.
I believe that women should not have abortions, but I acknowledge the fact that I am not the only person on earth, and there are other people on earth who do not share the same beliefs as I do. Just as I have the right to choose not to have an abortion, others should have the right to choose to have one. I am a pro-choice Christian Democrat. I believe that American women are citizens of America and should have unlimited rights, and if America is really the “land of the free”, then a women’s right to an abortion should not even be a debatable issue. I believe that women should have the natural-born “right to choose” what to do with their own bodies.
In supporting a woman’s right to choose, I am in no way at all justifying the act of abortion, but I am just supporting a woman's right of choice to either do the act or not. Just as I believe it is unreasonable to pass legislation making it unlawful for a woman not to have an abortion, I believe it is unreasonable to pass legislation making it unlawful for a woman to have one, because it limits a woman’s rights. Woman’s rights becoming a debatable issue is proof to me that America is growing into a fascist nation. Freedoms that Americans have are already in the act of being limited if they are not already limited.
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Killing a child at any
stage of life is a violation of God's clear command, "Thou Shall Do No
Murder".
Where is it? Why can’t I find that in the bible? According to this person abortion is “murder,” yet I cannot find anywhere in the bible where abortion is considered murder, so it looks to me like this person has inserted their own judgment into God’s word, corrupting it, just as the “Christian” traditionalists who stole the land from the Native-Americans and lied about founding this country did in the 1600’s, just as “Christian” traditionalists who condoned chattel slavery did in the 1800’s, just as the “Christian” traditionalists who instituted the Black Codes did in the 1860’s, just as the “Christian” traditionalists who fought against a woman’s right to vote did in the 1900’s, just as the “Christian” traditionalists who instituted the Jim Crow laws did in the 1890’s, just as the “Christian” traditionalists who fought against the Civil Rights movement did in the 1960’s.
It is a shame to me that this same “Christian” traditionalist mentality has not faded away with time, the same mentality that seeks to suffocate and infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others while the “Christian” traditionalists’ own freedoms remain untouched and unchallenged.
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Just an idea.
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on
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Originally posted by WildB:
Killing a child at any
stage of life is a violation of God's clear command, "Thou Shall Do No
Murder".
I agree with WildB abortion is murder.
No if ands or buts.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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I like what my GunnyB said,
"You're either for allowing the innocent to live...
...or for KILLING them for convenience and discarding like so much trash IMO. Sick, and sad, really..."
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
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Yes abortion is murder!
It always will be and it does not matter what people what to do to act like it is not.
IT IS!
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Abortion, oh my, what a subject!
Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.
Yahweh showed me sometime back that the fruit of the womb is so precious to Him
Today the many Christian’s think it is murder to kill by abortion, but think nothing about taking birth control…
But both are murder in Yahweh’s eyes.
Remember the scripture with what measure you meet out to others; it shall be measured back unto you.
Remember, Yeshua’s words when He said ….
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
In America today the fruit of the womb is viewed as a curse, any family with more than two children is thought to be crazy.
But Yahweh says the man who's quiver is full is Blessed!
Most people will not be honest with themselves, the reason people chose to have one or two children are for the same reasons people have abortions, convenience and cost.
Don’t get me wrong, I am totally against abortion in any shape, form or fashion.
But unless you are willing to remove the tree from your own eye, don’t try to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
The heart of every issue, is the heart of the issue!
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Yes abortion is murder!
It always will be and it does not matter what people what to do to act like it is not.
IT IS!
Amen - IT IS MURDER. If we give the woman the right to choose what she does with her own body, is it also ok for her to commit suicide? If a gravely sick family member has the right to choose what they want to do their body, should be assist them in euthenasia?
Anyway, it is not her body she is getting rid of. It is the body of a defenceless living unborn child. Pro-abortionists don't seem to have any answers as to when it passes from what they call a 'mass' into a living being. How can you tell at what precise time it happens? Yesterday it was a mass and to-day it is a living soul??
Don't mess with God. I have known of people who survived a botch-upped abortion, and they are so thankful to be alive.
Birth control is different, especially when you hear of poor women who have gone through bearing 10 or 11 children. If God wants there to be life, no birth control will work.
However, once the egg is fertilized it has become God's creation from the moment of conception, not to be tampered with.
Psalm 51: For I was born a sinner; yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
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Back to topic - web page
The Real Losers in the Obama-Warren Controversy
Rick Warren's invitation to have Barack Obama speak at his mega-church's AIDS conference has sparked a furor in the evangelical community. But pro-life critics of Obama's inclusion may end up regretting their stance
By DAVID VAN BIEMA
"The situation also enhances Warren's standing. For years, Billy Graham was lambasted for inviting theological liberals — as well as people unpopular in the Evangelical South, like Martin Luther King, Jr. — to his crusades. He invariably responded that the attendees were endorsing his cause, not the other way around. Graham knew that he would alienate some co-believers, but they were people he was happy to alienate. He was in the business of leading evangelicalism back into the American mainstream by distinguishing it from hard-core fundamentalism, one of whose most irritating characteristics was "second-degree separation," a philosophy of ostracizing other Christians simply for dealing with people considered less spiritually pure. Graham's national reputation flourished while that of his opponents suffered."
Way to go Billy!! A good way to separate the wheat from the tares.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
Good NewsforAll
Birth control is different, especially when you hear of poor women who have gone through bearing 10 or 11 children. If God wants there to be life, no birth control will work.
(bold added by becauseHElives)
poor women who have gone through bearing 10 or 11 children (listen to your self, that the exact mind set I am reffering too!) you call a curse, what Yahweh calls a Blessing!
You need to a little research before you comment...
Birth (Mind) Control
by Mrs. Akua Furlow
The term "birth control" is easily identified in historical writings as a term that was first coined by Margaret Sanger. When Sanger spoke of birth control, she was addressing the need to take control of and thus "limit the births" of the "unfit", the "dysgenic", the "human weeds". Sanger believed that certain racial groups and the poor were inferior. The term has since evolved to be synonymous to contraceptives. The actual definition of contraception means "the prevention of that union between sperm and ovum (conception) which may result from sexual activity" [1], or conception. However, this term too has taken on a subverted meaning. Most people believe that birth control pills are contraceptives. Actually, birth control pills are abortifacients. Abortifacients are devices or drugs that causes an abortion [2]. Intrauterine devices (or IUD) are devices of various shapes placed inside the uterus, altering the lining of the uterus in such a way as to prevent the (fertilized) developing human egg to implant in the uterine lining and growing to maturity.
The truth about conception has also been perverted to dismiss pregnancy. Pro-abortion, pro-"contraception" peddlers have re-defined pregnancy as the implantation of the fertilized egg. Using this definition , if birth control pills or an IUD prevents implantation of the (fertilized) developing egg, then it can be stated that birth control pills and IUD's prevent pregnancy.
In the pamphlet "A Guide To The Methods Of Contraception", "a service of" Ortho Pharmaceutical Corporation, the following language is used to describe the action of birth control pills:
"Most pills are a combination of two hormones (progestogen and estrogen) and are called combination oral contraceptives. There are some pills which contain only one hormone (a progestogen). These are called progestogen-only pills.... In the pill that contains both hormones (combination pills), the estrogen prevents pregnancy by stopping the development of the egg in the ovary. The progestogen changes the mucus in the cervix and helps prevent the sperm from reaching the egg. Also, the lining of the uterus does not become fully developed so that even if an egg does ripen and is fertilized, there is little likelihood it would become implanted.... Another type of pill (often called progestogen-only pill) contains only progestogen. The progestogen prevents the development of the egg in some women". The pamphlet boasts that the pills are "97-99% effective in preventing pregnancy."
These verbal gymnastics have been used to seduce women around the globe to take a chemical that will alter the uterine, creating such an unreceptive environment that the tiny human life won't have a place to lay its' head.
Despite the fact the at the moment of conception the human egg had its' complete DNA requirements that serves as a map to determine all the characteristic of this individual, and that by the time most women even know that they are pregnant this same individual has heart pulsation and brain function, the pro-choice proponent choose not to acknowledge the personhood of this, the smallest member of the human family. They also choose not to tell women the truth about the abortifacient nature of pills and IUD'S. Norplant, Depo-Provera, and RU 486 all function similarly as abortifacients. They would rather keep these devices of deception "user friendly". What many have accepted as birth control is really mind control!!
CONTROL TO EXERCISE AUTHORITY OVER; DIRECT; COMMAND. THE ACT OF FACT OF CONTROLLING; POWER TO DIRECT OR REGULATE. THE CONDITION OF BEING DIRECTED OR RESTRAINED. WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY (1982)
Wake up thou that sleepeth!!!! Ephesians 5:14 NKJV.
My people perish because of a lack of knowledge,.... but some have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you... Hosea 4:6 NKJV
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Gen.38
[8] And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
[9] And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
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Women should use wisdom when using birth control, and follow their own personal conscience. The pill isn't the only method of birth control.
Proverbs 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
What about the woman who may develop a serious heart problem and risk her life by getting pregnant? She wouldn't be there for her husband and possibly other children from their union.
What if a family is financially strapped and barely have enough food on the table, and add to the possible financial strain in the future? Chidren are our responsibility, and we shouldn't depend on society to provide for them.
Third World countries should practice birth control more often. With so much famine, it is cruel to bring a child into the world to add another emaciated statistic to the list.
However, care should be taken that any type of birth control doesn't abort an egg that has been fertilized. Once fertilized, it becomes life.
The Bible says "Go ye into the world and multiply." Jesus and Paul didn't fulfill this commission, so therefore this command must be generic, and not for each and every one of us. Many good Christians can't bear children.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
WildB
8Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.’ 9But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother.
You should always complete a thought when quoting scripture…
Verse 10 of that passage says…. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he put him to death also.
Gen 38:8-10
8Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.’ 9But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10What he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD, and he put him to death also.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Good NewsforAll, You make a good argument for humanism, but you have no scriptural precepts to base your ideas.
What is the basis for Faith in Yahweh / God?
Do I trust God / Yahweh only when it is convenient for my circumstances?
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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"You should always complete a thought when quoting scripture…"
Says who?
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
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The question is, what were Onan's motives? They weren't merely to use birth control, but it was done with a convetous, selfish heart?
John McGill's Exposition -Genesis 38:10
"And the thing which he did displeased the Lord…"
Being done out of envy to his brother, and through want of affection to the memory of his name; and it may be out of covetousness to get his estate into his own hands, and especially as it frustrated the end of such an usage of marrying a brother's wife; which appears to be according to the will of God, since it afterwards became a known law of his; and it was the more displeasing, as it was not only a check upon the multiplication of Abraham's seed as promised, but since the Messiah was to come from Judah. This was doing all to hinder it that lay in his power."
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Good NewsforAll, You make a good argument for humanism, but you have no scriptural precepts to base your ideas.
What is the basis for Faith in Yahweh / God?
Do I trust God / Yahweh only when it is convenient for my circumstances?
Not just convenient for our circumstance, but what about the welfare of bringing a child into this world? Frequently it is not a blessing to add another child to an already volatile situation.
Prayer and careful intercession should be taken before bringing children into this world. We just aren't buying a cute little puppy, or think it is God's will to accumulate a whole litter. If that is God's choice for your life, that is great, but people shouldn't have children just for the sake of having children.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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quote:
Good NewsforAll
Not just convenient for our circumstance, but what about the welfare of bringing a child into this world? Frequently it is not a blessing to add another child to an already volatile situation.
I want argue with you, ...
If Yahweh calls something a Blessing then I will agree with Him.
Yahweh said Blessed is the man who's quiver is full...
Yashua/Jesus said suffer the little children come to me...
You dissagree, that fine with me.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Amen - IT IS MURDER.
According to you and your opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
If we give the woman the right to choose what she does with her own body, is it also ok for her to commit suicide?
It is never okay, just as I feel that abortion is never okay, but some do commit the act, and they have the right to do so. I don’t see anyone passing legislation against suicide. Is suicide against the law? If so, then what is the penalty for breaking that law? I am not calling suicide okay, but I am trying to make the point that passing legislation against the act is unreasonable.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Anyway, it is not her body she is getting rid of. It is the body of a defenceless living unborn child.
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. Fetuses are not even born. Fetuses don’t have natural-born rights to me, because in order to have natural-born rights, you have to be natural-born first, you have to be born, and fetuses are NOT even born but the woman who carries the fetus is natural-born.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Don't mess with God. I have known of people who survived a botch-upped abortion, and they are so thankful to be alive.
“People” is the key word. People survive abortions, fetuses don’t. Abortions kill fetuses, murder kills people.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
However, once the egg is fertilized it has become God's creation from the moment of conception, not to be tampered with.
Psalm 51: For I was born a sinner; yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
Conception does not mean rights as an American citizen, and conception is not birth. Being born means rights as an American citizen, and the woman is born. Fetuses are not citizens; being BORN on American soil or being naturalized into this country is what makes a person a citizen of this country, not being conceived, but being BORN.
So with that, I feel that it was an evil thing to do in that article, to just demonize this Christian Democrat, senator Barack Obama, just for his stance on women's rights.
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Just an Idea.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Back to topic - web page
The Real Losers in the Obama-Warren Controversy
Rick Warren's invitation to have Barack Obama speak at his mega-church's AIDS conference has sparked a furor in the evangelical community. But pro-life critics of Obama's inclusion may end up regretting their stance
By DAVID VAN BIEMA
"The situation also enhances Warren's standing. For years, Billy Graham was lambasted for inviting theological liberals — as well as people unpopular in the Evangelical South, like Martin Luther King, Jr. — to his crusades. He invariably responded that the attendees were endorsing his cause, not the other way around. Graham knew that he would alienate some co-believers, but they were people he was happy to alienate. He was in the business of leading evangelicalism back into the American mainstream by distinguishing it from hard-core fundamentalism, one of whose most irritating characteristics was "second-degree separation," a philosophy of ostracizing other Christians simply for dealing with people considered less spiritually pure. Graham's national reputation flourished while that of his opponents suffered."
Way to go Billy!! A good way to separate the wheat from the tares.
Back to topic?
Really?
It looks to me as if you have just changed the subject. If you have changed the subject, then how is getting "back to topic" changing the subject as you have just did in your reply above promoting Billy Graham?
What does "Way to go Billy!!" have to do with the spiteful email about Barack Obama?
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
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I agree that "abortion" is a choice but is it the choice God would have one make?
God told Rebecca that there were 2 Nations and 2 peoples in her womb. They were not born yet, but God had a plan. These 2 "fetuses" as far as God was concerned were 2 "citizens" of 2 different Nations.
God told Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
Abortion maybe a womans right to choose, but that does not make it a right choice where Gods laws and holiness and rightousness are concerned. A Christian should be more concerned with how God views a "fetus" and abortion than how man views it.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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very well put yahsweh,
quote:
Itty-Bitty Girl, According to you and your opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.
Abortion in any shape,form or fashion in the eyes of Yahweh God is shedding innocent blood and is very displeasing to Yahweh.
Isaiah 59
1 Behold, Yahweh's hand is not shortened, that it can't save; neither his ear heavy, that it can't hear:
2 but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue mutters wickedness.
4 None sues in righteousness, and none pleads in truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
5 They hatch adders' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he who eats of their eggs dies; and that which is crushed breaks out into a viper.
6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; desolation and destruction are in their paths.
8 The way of peace they don't know; and there is no justice in their goings: they have made them crooked paths; whoever goes therein does not know peace.
9 Therefore is justice far from us, neither does righteousness overtake us: we look for light, but, behold, darkness; for brightness, but we walk in obscurity.
10 We grope for the wall like the blind; yes, we grope as those who have no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the twilight; among those who are lusty we are as dead men.
11 We roar all like bears, and moan sore like doves: we look for justice, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before you, and our sins testify against us; for our transgressions are with us, and as for our iniquities, we know them:
13 transgressing and denying Yahweh, and turning away from following our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.
14 Justice is turned away backward, and righteousness stands afar off; for truth is fallen in the street, and uprightness can't enter.
15 Yes, truth is lacking; and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Yahweh saw it, and it displeased him that there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his own arm brought salvation to him; and his righteousness, it upheld him.
17 He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation on his head; and he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a mantle.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, wrath to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
19 So shall they fear the name of Yahweh from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Yahweh drives.
20 "A Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those who turn from disobedience in Jacob," says Yahweh.
21 "As for me, this is my covenant with them," says Yahweh. "My Spirit who is on you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, nor out of the mouth of your seed, nor out of the mouth of your seed's seed," says Yahweh, "from henceforth and forever."
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
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Where in the world did Rick Warren get so far off track?
Rick Warren like so many others are taking a humanistic approach to the Gospel, which in turn produces an antichrist apostate church doctrine.
Rick Warren is a world leader in bringing about the end time ecumenical movement tying together the Apostate Churches so they will be ready to except and follow the beast.
So is Billy Graham...
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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American Abortion Counter
http://www.biblehelp.org/abortioncnt.htm
41,476,523 MURDERED INNOCENT UN-BORN AMERICANS x (200 millilitres of blood or 6 ½ fluid ounces)/128 US fluid ounces =
2,106,229 Gallons of INNOCENT UNBORN AMERICAN BLOOD.
Down the drain reprocessed then back into the drinking water of the people.
No longer does the blood cry up from the ground but from the very water we drink.
Lev.17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Gen.4
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Back to topic - web page
The Real Losers in the Obama-Warren Controversy
Rick Warren's invitation to have Barack Obama speak at his mega-church's AIDS conference has sparked a furor in the evangelical community. But pro-life critics of Obama's inclusion may end up regretting their stance
By DAVID VAN BIEMA
"The situation also enhances Warren's standing. For years, Billy Graham was lambasted for inviting theological liberals — as well as people unpopular in the Evangelical South, like Martin Luther King, Jr. — to his crusades. He invariably responded that the attendees were endorsing his cause, not the other way around. Graham knew that he would alienate some co-believers, but they were people he was happy to alienate. He was in the business of leading evangelicalism back into the American mainstream by distinguishing it from hard-core fundamentalism, one of whose most irritating characteristics was "second-degree separation," a philosophy of ostracizing other Christians simply for dealing with people considered less spiritually pure. Graham's national reputation flourished while that of his opponents suffered."
Way to go Billy!! A good way to separate the wheat from the tares.
Back to topic?
Really?
It looks to me as if you have just changed the subject. If you have changed the subject, then how is getting "back to topic" changing the subject as you have just did in your reply above promoting Billy Graham?
What does "Way to go Billy!!" have to do with the spiteful email about Barack Obama?
I think you are misunderstanding something. You changed it to abortion and I was changing it back to the subject at hand, which was the Obama-Warren Controversy and showing how this sort of thing can backfire on them, using Billy Graham as an example.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
Since we still are speaking about abortion -
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
It is never okay, just as I feel that abortion is never okay, but some do commit the act, and they have the right to do so.
Either it is a sin or it isn't. We can't sit on the fence.
Pro-choicers don't give enough support and information on what happens after an abortion, in the way of deep depression, guilt and sometimes thoughts of suicide.
Women who have miscarriages have family and friends as a support, but with a woman who has an abortion, she made that choice and should be happy. It must be a very lonely and hopeless place to be in. After all, life or not , the nurturing side of this woman must realize that this 'mass', as some insist on calling it, had the potential to become a human life one day and it may haunt them the rest of their lives.
Post- Abortion Syndrome (PAS)
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
quote:
WildB
American Abortion Counter
http://www.biblehelp.org/abortioncnt.htm
41,476,523 MURDERED INNOCENT UN-BORN AMERICANS x (200 millilitres of blood or 6 ½ fluid ounces)/128 US fluid ounces =
2,106,229 Gallons of INNOCENT UNBORN AMERICAN BLOOD.
Down the drain reprocessed then back into the drinking water of the people.
No longer does the blood cry up from the ground but from the very water we drink.
Lev.17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Gen.4
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Amen WildB, thanks for the link
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
It ma come as a surprise to those who think of me as a spawn-of-satan-left-winger but my belief on this chimes with itty-bitty-girl.
Abortion is murder.
However, that is different from the public policy discussion around whether to ban abortion or not.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
Abortion is murder.
However, that is different from the public policy discussion around whether to ban abortion or not.
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
quote:
Good NewsforAll,
Either it is a sin or it isn't. We can't sit on the fence.
Abortion is a sin, a sin of the most grievous nature, but as with any sin there are degrees of how horrible the sin is.
If I lust after a woman, Yahweh says it is a sin just as serious in His eyes as if I had already committed the act of adultery, but in my wife’s eyes the thought is not nearly as bad as if I had committed the act of adultery with a stranger, even yet worse if I committed the act with someone we were acquainted with.
I pray Yahweh open your eyes to the precept of His Word that speaks to us about judging others when we are guilty of the same sin, only in a lesser degree.
Jhn 8:7 -11
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her…
….She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
The principle is if I am going to judge another person I must be free of that sin to any degree in my own life.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye (Matthew 7:3-5).
Abortion is abortion to Yahweh, there are no degrees of how much worse it is to have an abortion in the first trimester, the last trimester a baby is in the womb or if you abort the baby with birth control, one is truly worse than the other in human understanding but not Yahweh’s.
"Birth Control" Pills cause early Abortions
By J.T. Finn (updated April 23, 2005)
Physicians across America -- and around the world -- are now confirming that the Pill, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant cause early abortions.
First, a look at the Pill. Research shows that in many cases the Pill causes early abortions -- abortions the mother may not even know she's having. You may find this shocking, but the facts are clear after reading Randy Alcorn's book, titled;
"Does the Birth Control Pill Cause Abortions?"
Here's what 11 physicians and medical professionals are saying about the book Randy Alcorn published in 1998:
1. "From medical textbooks and pharmacy references, to statements from the Pill-manufacturers themselves, this book proves, beyond any doubt, the abortion-causing action of birth control pills. This book should be read by everyone interested in knowing the truth."
~ Paul L. Hayes, M.D., Board Certified Fellow of the American College of Obstetricians/Gynecologists
2. "Does the birth control pill cause abortions? Using research results from medical literature, Randy Alcorn has convincingly shown that the answer is `yes.' He has, with care and compassion, given us the truth. The question for us as Christians is how we will respond now that we know."
~ Linda Martin, M.D., Pediatrician
3. "By carefully detailing the available medical information concerning the abortifacient effects of oral contraceptives, Randy Alcorn has developed a logical and thoughtful challenge to every prolife person. The conclusions of this study are scientifically accurate. Birth control pills usually prevent pregnancy, but sometimes they cause an abortion. Questions? Objections? Randy has addressed them in a gentle but firm way. This is the manner in which the often fiery debate over prolife subjects should be carried out- unemotionally, intelligently and quietly. The evidence is before us . . . `How should we then live?'"
~ Patrick D. Walker, M.D., Professor of Pathology, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences
4. "In this challenging book Randy Alcorn has the honesty to face a tough and uncomfortable question. This compelling evidence will make you rethink the question of birth control pills."
~ John Brose, M.D., Surgeon
5. "In this impeccably researched book, Randy Alcorn takes an unblinking look at what medical experts know about how birth control pills work. I painfully agree that birth control pills do in fact cause abortions. Our individual and collective Christian response to this heretofore varnished-over information will have profound consequences for time and eternity. This is a disturbing must-read for all who profess to be prolife."
~ Beverly A. McMillan, M.D., Ob/Gyn
6. "Randy Alcorn has done exceptional work. The facts in this book parallel much of my own research. I am delighted he would undertake such a work when others seek to avoid the subject. This book is a must for Christians, particularly those in medicine and Christian ministries."
~ Karen D. Garnett, R.N.
7. "No prolife physician can rightly prescribe BCPs [birth control pills] after reviewing this data. I have started circulating this information."
~ Randall Martin, M.D., Chairman, Department of Anesthesiology, Columbia Willamette Valley Medical Center
8. "Scientific papers suggest that escape ovulation occurs 4-15% of all cycles in patients taking birth control pills. Thus, as this booklet points out, early chemical abortions are a real and significant concern."
~ Paddy Jim Baggot, M.D., Ob/Gyn, Fellow of the American College of Medical Genetics
9. "Randy Alcorn has thoroughly studied and written on an area where little published scientific information exists. His responses to this issue, and his outstanding appendices, are must reading."
~ William M. Petty, M.D., Surgeon, Gynecologic Oncology
10. "Randy Alcorn has once again demonstrated his tenacity and integrity in pursuing the truth. He has exposed the abortifacient properties of so-called birth control agents. This booklet should be required reading for all discerning Christians who wish to fully live out their faith."
~ William L. Toffler, M.D., Professor of Family Medicine,
Oregon Health Sciences University
11. "I endorse Randy Alcorn's book with gusto. He has answered the title question with the care and compassion of a pastor, having searched out the facts with the diligence of an experienced researcher. He has provided all women in their reproductive years with an invaluable resource which will allow them to be fully informed about the birth control pill."
~ William F. Colliton, Jr., M.D., Clinical Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology,
George Washington University Medical Center
You may go to Randy Alcorn's web site and read a summary of this 88-page book by clicking here.
http://www.epm.org/articles/bcp5400.html
You may also order the inexpensive book from his site.
More facts about the Pill, IUDs, Depo-Provera and Norplant:
http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I agree that "abortion" is a choice but is it the choice God would have one make?
Have you ever heard of fetus in fetu?
Fetus in fetu, means “a fetus within a fetus”. Or “Christian” traditionalists may call it “an unborn child within an unborn child”.
“Fetus in fetu is a rare abnormality secondary to the abnormal embryogenesis in a diamniotic, monochorionic pregnancy. It is an unusual condition in which a vertebrate fetus is enclosed within the abdomen of a normally developing fetus.”
Source cited: http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/214/3/735
So in simple terms: Two eggs are fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into two fetal twins, but under some bizarre circumstances, one fetus ends up enclosed in its fetal twin’s abdomen and literally feeds off of the normal developing fetus’ resources and grows and will eventually kill the normally developing fetus if left inside of it. <This is not some sci-fi flick either: this is real life. >
“A baby born with a fetus inside it ‘occurs in only one in every 500,000 live births,’ said Maria Angelica Belmar, head of the hospital's neonatal wing.”
Source cited: http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/chilean-boy-born-with-fetus-in-his/20061124150509990008
So, what choice would God have one make?
Would God have one let the parasitic fetus live and continue to grow and kill its fetal twin, which will in turn kill the parasitic twin also(no more resources for it to feed off of), so that both fetuses die? Or would God have one kill the parasitic fetus, to preserve the life of its normally developing fetal host?
You see, that is what fetuses do: feed off resources of a person, inside of a person’s body. In a pregnancy, a woman’s resources are being fed off of. I have come to the conclusion that a fetus is not a human being, it is a mass, feeding off the resources of its host, providing no benefit. In the case of “fetus in fetu”, a fetus is feeding off the resources of the other fetus, and it is the other fetus that cannot support the resources and needs of its parasitic twin.
***
In some cases of a pregnancy, the fetus is endangering the life of the woman that it is inside of, because the woman becomes unable to support the fetus’ needs, like in the case of “fetus in fetu”, and both woman and fetus may die if the fetus remains inside of the woman.
Abortions kill fetuses, I have come to the conclusion that fetuses are not human beings. I believe they become human beings when they are able to survive outside of the body of their hosts.
“A woman with sickle cell anemia who sought an abortion had suffered three severe sickle cell crises during a previous pregnancy. Each time she had to be hospitalized and on two occasions she received blood transfusions. The pain had been unbearable. When she became pregnant again, she sought an abortion to avoid the significant health risks she faced if she continued the pregnancy.
Source cited: http://www.aclu.org/reproductiverights/lowincome/16449lgl20000210.html
So, what choice would God have one make?
Would God have one let the parasitic fetus live and continue to grow and kill its mother, which will in turn kill the parasitic fetus also(no more resources for it to feed off of), so that both fetus and mother die? Or would God have one kill the parasitic fetus(abortion), to preserve the life of its mother and host?
***
Have you ever heard of Chimerism?
“Chimera” is the Greek word for a mythical creature that was part lion, part goat and part serpent.
Chimeras are real. A Chimera woman said: ”Myth no longer it is now realistic and I'm living proof.” Source cited: http://www.geocities.com/mylifewithchimera/Chimera.html
In 1998, doctors at the University of Edinburgh highlighted a case in which two embryos, one male and one female, fused in development to form a single child.
Source cited: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3264467.stm
So in simple terms: Two eggs are fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into two non-identical embryo twins, but under some bizarre circumstances, both embryos end up fused together in the womb, and the mother ends up giving birth to one child. <This is not some sci-fi flick either: this is real life. > Around 30 cases of chimerism have been reported.
A mother had been pregnant with non-identical twins who had fused together in the womb to make one person.
So if the fertilized egg(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll) are truly human beings, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin in the womb started off as two fertilized eggs. Do Chimeras have two souls?
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
God told Rebecca that there were 2 Nations and 2 peoples in her womb. They were not born yet, but God had a plan. These 2 "fetuses" as far as God was concerned were 2 "citizens" of 2 different Nations.
According to you and your belief, but I can’t seem to find in the bible where God says that they were “2 ‘citizens’ of 2 different Nations”.
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
God told Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
And what does that have to do with a woman’s right to choose to have an abortion?
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Abortion maybe a womans right to choose, but that does not make it a right choice where Gods laws and holiness and rightousness are concerned. A Christian should be more concerned with how God views a "fetus" and abortion than how man views it.
I am a Christian, and I don’t even know how God views abortion. I have not even seen in the bible how God views abortion. I thought I knew, but I didn’t. It was more of a false knowledge, because I cannot find anywhere in the bible where it says that a woman should be denied her right to choose to have an abortion. It was my idea that God was against abortion, but that idea was more of how myself, man, views abortion, and how man put its own opinion in the bible, and how man views Christians who do not agree with the their own opinions that they themselves have inserted into the bible.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Abortion in any shape,form or fashion in the eyes of Yahweh God is shedding innocent blood and is very displeasing to Yahweh.
That is what Dale says, Dale’s opinion, but is it in the bible? Where does it say that killing a fetus is “shedding innocent blood and is very displeasing to Yahweh.”?
I believe that there is a difference between abortion and murder. ABORTION is an act done INSIDE of a natural-born person’s body, INSIDE OF THE WOMB; while MURDER is an act done OUTSIDE of a natural-born person’s body, like what Cain did to Abel.
A crime like murdering a “six month old infant” or an “elderly mother” or even a “newborn” is OUTSIDE of a person’s body and is MURDER, it is fatal to natural-born people OUTSIDE OF THE WOMB. That is how I come to the conclusion that abortion not murder.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Either it is a sin or it isn't. We can't sit on the fence.
Tell me the bible verse that says that abortion(killing a fetus or embryo) is a sin. Abortion is never okay in some cases, but I believe that women should have the right to choose; a fetus is a fetus nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Pro-choicers don't give enough support and information on what happens after an abortion, in the way of deep depression, guilt and sometimes thoughts of suicide.
Women who have miscarriages have family and friends as a support, but with a woman who has an abortion, she made that choice and should be happy. It must be a very lonely and hopeless place to be in. After all, life or not , the nurturing side of this woman must realize that this 'mass', as some insist on calling it, had the potential to become a human life one day and it may haunt them the rest of their lives.
Did it have the same potential as the “fetus in fetu”, the fetus that was killing its normally developing fetal twin, and if left inside would kill both the fetus and its twin?
Did it have the same potential as the fetus that was killing its mother and if left inside would kill the both fetus and its mother? I wonder why I haven’t heard pro-lifers mention these types of fetal cases.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening.
According to you and your opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening.
According to you and your opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.
Sin is sin. God judged the world in Noah's time. He brought down Sodom and Gammorah because of their sinful ways. Well over 47,000,000 abortions have been performed in the States since 1973 - that is a staggering statistic.
web page
You say that a woman has the right to choose what she does with her own body. The issue isn't the woman's body. It's what is inside her body, a living fetus. She was given the chance to live, why would she cut off the chance for her unborn child to live? If there are birth defects, God will tke care of those during delivery. If they are serious, they will not survive birth or probably die shortly after. At least you know that you didn't take matters into your own hands. God is in control, whatever the outcome is.
These are God's creation that we are carrying. We must not tamper with his divine plan.-
Psalm 139:13 FOR YOU CREATED MY INMOST BEING; YOU KNIT ME TOGETHER IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
He has a special plan for every seed that is planted. -
Genesis 25: 20And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian. 21And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
22And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger
Romans 9: 11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
:
Genesis 25 :23
And the Lord said to her:
"Two Nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be seperated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other
And the older shall serve the younger".
2 nations, two peoples(not fetus's)
2 peoples who would be citizens of 2 different Nations. Understand?
I wonder, would you be against abortion if the law stated it was illigal EXCEPT for the cases you cited? How many did the article say? 1 in every 500,000 cases?
And why would a woman with sicle cell who was so sick during her 1st pregnancy even consider becoming pregnant again?
You know, like it or not, the scripture does speak of our bodies being the Temple of God, that is if you are indeed a Christian. And the scriptures also say it is our reasonable service to render our bodies to Him and to take care of our bodies. Abortion is not itself without risks either. I am a nurse so I do know a little about anatomy and health care.
And as for reaping what we sow, we as a nation are seeing the effects of aborition right now. These past 30 years or so that abortion has been legal, these aborted babies could have been viable working citizens of our nation paying into the Social Security System and we wouldnt be having the political discussions about there being no Social Security retirement for those of us baby-boomers about to hit retirement age.
Abortion affects many different things. How many of those already aborted could maybe have found a cure for cancer, Aids or other diseases? Maybe there would have been some teachers/preachers of the Word of God in that aborted lot of innocents. We will never know. How sad. God must look on us and grieve on how some view life that He has given.
I believe Life starts at conception. Here is one reason why I believe this .
Luke 1:39-
Now Mary arouse in those days and went into the hill country with haste to a city of Judah, and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
And it happened when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary that the Babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit..
Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb!
But why is this granted to me , that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, THE BABE LEAPED IN MY WOMB FOR JOY.
God had a purpose for the babe in Elizabeths womb. He was John, to prepare the way of the Lord.
The Lord Yeshua, who was in the womb of Mary.
The womb of a woman is precious. For it was created and designed by God for us to be fruitful, and to multiply.
Shalom
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Sin is sin.
Where in the bible does it say that abortion is sin? What chapter is that in the New Testament?
Two eggs are fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into two fetal twins, but under some bizarre circumstances, one fetus ends up enclosed in its fetal twin’s abdomen and literally feeds off of the normal developing fetus’ resources and grows and will eventually kill the normally developing fetus if left inside of it. <This is not some sci-fi flick either: this is real life. >
So, what choice would God have one make?
Would God have one let the parasitic fetus live and continue to grow and kill its fetal twin, which will in turn kill the parasitic twin also(no more resources for it to feed off of), so that both fetuses die? Or would God have one kill the parasitic fetus, to preserve the life of its normally developing fetal host?
***
In some cases of a pregnancy, an egg is fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into a fetus, but due to the mother’s health condition, it is endangering the life of the woman that it is inside of, because the woman becomes unable to support the fetus’ needs, like in the case of “fetus in fetu”, and both woman and fetus may die if the fetus remains inside of the woman.
So, what choice would God have one make?
Would God have one let the parasitic fetus live and continue to grow and kill its mother, which will in turn kill the parasitic fetus also(no more resources for it to feed off of), so that both fetus and mother die? Or would God have one kill the parasitic fetus(abortion), to preserve the life of its mother and host?
A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body. She should have the right to choose.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
You say that a woman has the right to choose what she does with her own body. The issue isn't the woman's body. It's what is inside her body, a living fetus.
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. Fetuses are not even born, they are not even human beings. Fetuses don’t have natural-born rights to me, because in order to have natural-born rights, you have to be natural-born first, you have to be born, and fetuses are NOT even born, but the woman who carries the fetus is natural-born.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
These are God's creation that we are carrying. We must not tamper with his divine plan.-
So if the fertilized egg(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll) are truly human beings, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin in the womb started off as two fertilized eggs. Do Chimeras have two souls?
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Genesis 25 :23
And the Lord said to her:
"Two Nations are in your womb,
Two peoples shall be seperated from your body;
One people shall be stronger than the other
And the older shall serve the younger".
2 nations, two peoples(not fetus's)
2 peoples who would be citizens of 2 different Nations. Understand?
No, because that is your opinion. It is according to you, but not to God.
God addressed the fetuses in the woman’s womb as “nations”. God addressed them as “peoples” when He when he spoke of what the fetuses would be when they were out of the womb. Two peoples would be SEPARATED from her body at BIRTH. A woman does not give birth to fetuses, she gives birth to people, human beings. I do not believe that they are human beings in the womb; they are living fetuses in the womb.
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I wonder, would you be against abortion if the law stated it was illigal EXCEPT for the cases you cited? How many did the article say? 1 in every 500,000 cases?
I am for a woman’s right to choose to get an abortion. The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
And why would a woman with sicle cell who was so sick during her 1st pregnancy even consider becoming pregnant again?
I don’t know.
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
I believe Life starts at conception.
I do too, but I do not believe that fetuses are human; they are just the mere origins of humans, developing into humans.
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, THE BABE LEAPED IN MY WOMB FOR JOY.
God had a purpose for the babe in Elizabeths womb. He was John, to prepare the way of the Lord.
A fetus can be called a babe. A babe is a young child; a child can be either an unborn person or a recently born person. A fetus, an unborn person it is not a person, it is not a human being.
Main Entry: ba·by
Etymology: Middle English, from babe
1 a (1) : an extremely young child
Source cited: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/baby
Main Entry: child
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cild; akin to Gothic kilthei womb, and perhaps to Sanskrit jathara belly
1 a : an unborn or recently born person
Source cited: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/child
Although it can be called a child or babe, a fetus is an unborn person, and is not a person to me.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. Fetuses are not even born, they are not even human beings. Fetuses don’t have natural-born rights to me, because in order to have natural-born rights, you have to be natural-born first, you have to be born, and fetuses are NOT even born, but the woman who carries the fetus is natural-born.
fetus : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from conception to birth.
Psalm 51:5 For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
Pretty plain that there is life there.
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
I find that article offensive, because I love Senator Barack Obama and I just hate the way this article is portraying him, I hate the tasteless demonization of this Christian Democrat that this article disagrees with.
Senatar Obama is a really likeable guy and could charm the paint off of a wall, but be not deceived.
Follow God, not Senator Barack Obama.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
Itty-Bitty Girl
Proverbs 31:8,9
“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.”
I feel very sorry for you if you can not distinguish how horrible the act of abortion is and how heartbreaking it is for Yahweh.
Please take a look at the link below before you address me again.
http://hispanicsforlife.suite550.com/dura_realidad/
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
fetus : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from conception to birth.
Psalm 51:5 For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
By the way, where did you get that definition of a fetus from?
I am pretty sure that definition is wrong because the fertilized egg turns into an embryo and which turns into a fetus. If the above definition were true, then Chimeras would not exist. A Chimera’s origin in the womb started off as two fertilized eggs, fraternal twins, which turned into two embryos that fused together and turned to one fetus in the womb, resulting in the mother giving birth to one child with two different DNA types.
A birthed child is already developed and is a person, but an unborn child(fetus) is not developed and is not a person, a fetus is merely developing from usually two months after conception to birth into a person, a person is a birthed child. I do not believe that fetuses are people; they are just the mere origins of people(just as I believe that an egg is not a chicken; but an egg is the origin of the chicken).
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Pretty plain that there is life there.
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Senatar Obama is a really likeable guy and could charm the paint off of a wall, but be not deceived.
Follow God, not Senator Barack Obama.
I do not believe that senator Barack Obama is deceiving me, and I don’t even follow him, I follow God.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Proverbs 31:8,9
“Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.”
Okay, where is proof in the bible that the verses that you have cited apply to fetuses? Where is it? Where is it? Why can’t I find that in the bible? It appears to be all according to you, Dale. So it looks to me like you have inserted your own judgment into God’s word.
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I feel very sorry for you if you can not distinguish how horrible the act of abortion is and how heartbreaking it is for Yahweh.
So because I do not see it in the bible, because it is NOT there, I have to “distinguish how horrible the act of abortion is and how heartbreaking it is for Yahweh” according to Dale? I believe that women should have the right to make that choice to either get an abortion, or not get an abortion. I don’t even know how God views abortion. I have not even seen in the bible how God views abortion.
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Please take a look at the link below before you address me again.
http://hispanicsforlife.suite550.com/dura_realidad/view.php?l=en
I saw the link. It can take you to a page where a person can “See shocking abortion video online now!” No, thanks.
Posted by yahsway (Member # 3738) on
:
IttyBitty,
You say you do not know how God views abortion and you do not see it in the scriptures. Then I must tell you that you have scales on your eyes. Seeing but you do not see.
Hearing but you do not hear.
Why wont you look at the abortion video? This is what you uphold. The right of women to make the choice to do what is shown in that video. Are you afraid you might "see"? would it somehow repulse you? I cant imagine why it would for someone who belives that its nothing more than a "fetus".
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Psalm 139:13 FOR YOU CREATED MY INMOST BEING; YOU KNIT ME TOGETHER IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
These scriptures support my belief that fetuses are not people, but they are simply the origins of people, or masses. To me, the scriptures cited prove my point exactly. In the womb, a human is developing, being formed, being “knit” together, or being made into a person. They are not being formed into people outside the womb, but on the inside of the womb. Outside of the womb, the child is already formed and can live without the resources of its mother’s body.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
He has a special plan for every seed that is planted. -
No act, not even abortion, can prevent God’s will from coming to pass. God is God. No one can limit His power; no one can tamper with His "special plan". NOT A SOUL.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
IttyBitty,
You say you do not know how God views abortion and you do not see it in the scriptures. Then I must tell you that you have scales on your eyes. Seeing but you do not see.
Hearing but you do not hear.
I believe this would be according to yahsway.
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Why wont you look at the abortion video? This is what you uphold. The right of women to make the choice to do what is shown in that video. Are you afraid you might "see"? would it somehow repulse you? I cant imagine why it would for someone who belives that its nothing more than a "fetus".
Every person should be entitled to his or her rights to choose what to do with their own body, I don’t like to look at graphic things. Graphic things kind of repulse me, anyway. I think that video would be a bit to graphic for me. I believe that I would say the same thing about a birth video, too.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Open your eyes and and your heart Rose and try not to continue to buy-into the Liberal pablum.
This is the second trimester baby and this is what you would continue to allow to be butchered:
This is the third trimester when the partial birth abortions are performed:
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Open your eyes and and your heart Rose and try not to continue to buy-into the Liberal pablum.
Why do you continue to call me “Rose”? “Rose” is not even my name, that is not even who I am. Can you just call me “Glacialis”? Anyway, I would rather be a Christian liberal than a Christian conservative.
What I believe does not matter when it comes to a woman’s rights. I am more about the rights of a woman.
I have a heart for women; a woman is a person. I have a heart enough not to infringe on the rights of women who want to have an abortion. Are you aware of the fact that there are people who do not believe as you do? If so, then why would you wish to infringe on their rights with your beliefs?
I believe that women should not have abortions, but I acknowledge the fact that I am not the only person on earth, and there are other people on earth who do not share the same beliefs as I do. A woman should have the right to choose for herself to either do the act or not. It is the woman's body, so it should be the woman's choice to do what she wishes with her own body. A woman should not be denied her right just because someone else decided that they knew what was best for her. I believe that American women are citizens of America and should have unlimited rights, and if America is really the “land of the free”, then women’s rights should not even be a debatable issue.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
This baby could be delivered and given up for adoption.
Instead in Wichita, Kansas, Dr. Tiller delivers this size of baby down the birth canal until just the top of the head remains in the birth canal, then he stabs the baby in the back of the head and sucks the brains out.
This is partial Birth Abortion, and is being committed on babies just the same size or bigger as the one in the picture.
These babies have their own bodies but they are not being allowed CHOICE.
ANYONE WHO SUPPOTS ABORTION IS GUILTY as accesory to the pre-meditated murder of babies.
Have you ever heard of "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"?
Each abortion kills a living baby.
My youngest daughter was born at 30 weeks and weighed 2 lbs 14 ozs. I just performed her marriage ceremony a few weeks ago.
Babies in Wichita are being murdered which are larger and further developed than my daughter.
Those who support abortion are either ignorant, or their hearts are hardened to the point that they do not care. Those who support abortion are in rebellion against God, and have the innocent blood of millions of babies on their hands.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
This baby could be delivered and given up for adoption.
It could be aborted, also, if that is the woman’s choice.
Instead in Wichita, Kansas, Dr. Tiller delivers this size of baby down the birth canal until just the top of the head remains in the birth canal, then he stabs the baby in the back of the head and sucks the brains out.
This is partial Birth Abortion, and is being committed on babies just the same size or bigger as the one in the picture.
These babies have their own bodies but they are not being allowed CHOICE.
If the fetus were a born person, then it would not be the woman’s choice. The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.
quote:
Psalm 139:13 FOR YOU CREATED MY INMOST BEING; YOU KNIT ME TOGETHER IN MY MOTHER'S WOMB.
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
To me, the scriptures cited prove my point exactly- that fetuses are not people, but they are simply the origins of people, or masses.
In the womb, a human is developing, being formed, being “knit” together, or being made into a person. They are not being formed into people outside the womb, but on the inside of the womb.
Outside of the womb, the child is already formed and can live without the resources of its mother’s body. A birthed child is already developed and is a person, but an unborn child(fetus) is not developed and is not a person, a fetus is merely developing from usually two months after conception to birth into a person, a person is a birthed child. I do not believe that fetuses are people; they are just the mere origins of people(just as I believe that an egg is not a chicken; but an egg is the origin of the chicken).
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
ANYONE WHO SUPPOTS ABORTION IS GUILTY as accesory to the pre-meditated murder of babies.
According to Drew and Drew’s opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible.
Where in the bible does it say to limit a person’s freedoms and rights just because they do not believe as you do? What chapter is that in the New Testament?
Where in the bible does it say that abortion is sin? What chapter is that in the New Testament?
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Have you ever heard of "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"?
Each abortion kills a living baby.
Abortions kill fetuses, I have come to the conclusion that fetuses are not people, but fetuses do become people.
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
My youngest daughter was born at 30 weeks and weighed 2 lbs 14 ozs. I just performed her marriage ceremony a few weeks ago.
Babies in Wichita are being murdered which are larger and further developed than my daughter.
Well it was your daughter’s mother’s choice to give birth to her, wasn’t it? If this woman had the right to choose to NOT have an abortion, then why should another woman be denied her right to choose TO have one? Why should a person be required by law to carry a fetus that they do not want, and which may be putting their life at risk.
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Those who support abortion are either ignorant, or their hearts are hardened to the point that they do not care. Those who support abortion are in rebellion against God, and have the innocent blood of millions of babies on their hands.
According to Drew and Drew’s opinion, but I can’t seem to find that in the bible. I don’t support the act of abortion, it is a sad thing, but I support a woman’s right to choose to either do the act or not.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
quote:
Itty-Bitty Girl,
I am a pro-choice Christian Democrat. I believe that American women are citizens of America and should have unlimited rights, and if America is really the “land of the free”, then a women’s right to an abortion should not even be a debatable issue. I believe that women should have the natural-born “right to choose” what to do with their own bodies.
Do you not realize how irrational and how unintelligent that statement is, not just from the standpoint of scripture but just simple intelligence?
According to your statement because someone is an American citizen, they should be free to do anything they please to their own bodies.
That would included taking cocaine or any other addicting drug, being a prostitute, having sex with animals, having sex with people of their same sex if they chose, or if am 10 years old I have the natural-born “right to choose” as a citizen of America I can be a prostitute boy or girl.
Your thinking is sad.
I wonder if your glad your mother did not chose to butcher you?
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
I feel sadly that you are coming against us born-again Christians, and angrily calling us traditionalists, Glacialis Caerul Femella, but I still love you just the same.
All I can say is that when, I became infilled with the Holy Spirit, the veil was lifted off of my eyes and all decisions of the flesh were turned over to God, and my body was no longer under my control.
Posted by IveyLeaguer (Member # 5493) on
:
quote:
Where in the world did Rick Warren get so far off track?
'Officially', it was at Robert Schuller's Institute for Church Growth in California about 1978 or 1979. But chances are he was 'off track' well before then.
![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
I would suggest that IF you are over twelve years of age Rose, and IF you have any possibility of possessing any love for Christ, that you examine the TRUTH of abortion and the detriment it causes to women of all ages.
http://abortiontv.com/
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening. [/QB]
Judgement on our land? What rubbish. The judgement is of us, not the land. Saved or not saved, heaven or hell, book of life or not.
God doesn't do the Old Testament plague thing any more - it's personal.
The decision on whether to ban abortion is not a biblical one. Abortion is a sin, however if we were to ban all sinful things then adultry would be treated in a similar way to murder and telling a lie or swearing at your parents would gain you the same time in jail as stealing. Banning abortion requires a discussion mixing public policy, evangelism techniques, morals & ethics and sociology.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The physiological, moral and psychological damage to a woman may pale in comparison to the result of causing a grievous nature to overtake God. Would we be mocking and scoffing God by going against His own blueprint for creation?
Even substance abuse, hating our neighbour or shoplifting doesn't come against the very core of God's perfect design of creating human life. Yes, Proverbs 31:8,9 sums it up perfectly. We have to speak up for the little innocents, who cannot speak up for themselves.
Proverbs 31:8,9 “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute.
Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.”
Posted by reflectingtheson (Member # 5083) on
:
Has any one else noticed how Itty-Bitty Girl keeps referring to an unborn child as a "fetus" to lessen the impact of her and the pro-choice position.
Do they not know the true definitions of their words.
First lets look at embryo since they view that as a mass of cells:
Main Entry: em·bryo
Pronunciation: 'em-brE-"O
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural em·bry·os
Etymology: Medieval Latin embryon-, embryo, from Greek embryon, from en- + bryein to swell; akin to Greek bryon catkin
1 a archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching b : an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing HUMAN individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception.
Now their most used word to deflect the truth of their position:
Main Entry: fe·tus
Pronunciation: 'fE-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful -- more at FEMININE
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing Human from usually two months after conception to birth.
I know this is not going to change the minds of the masses who can not bear to stand for something, but this is for those who can "see and hear" so that they are more informed.
Wouldn't it had been a tragic if God had looked at Saul of Tarsus and said " it is not my right to try to change that person. I mean he has the right to live as he wants even if it means killing my believers. I know Peter doesn't think like Saul/Paul but he's not the only one on Earth.
So go on you pro-choice followers and keep killing the 'fetus' and living as it means nothing. It is your choice and thankfully I will never have to answer for it or try to grovel my excuse for it.
Until the end of this age . . .Keep looking up!
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ahar:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Abortion is slaughter of the innocent and therefore a sin. We are putting judgment on our land if we don't prevent this degradation from happening.
Judgement on our land? What rubbish. The judgement is of us, not the land. Saved or not saved, heaven or hell, book of life or not.
God doesn't do the Old Testament plague thing any more - it's personal.
The decision on whether to ban abortion is not a biblical one. Abortion is a sin, however if we were to ban all sinful things then adultry would be treated in a similar way to murder and telling a lie or swearing at your parents would gain you the same time in jail as stealing. Banning abortion requires a discussion mixing public policy, evangelism techniques, morals & ethics and sociology. [/QB]
If we vote in a president because he upholds abortion and same-sex marriage, if we sign petitions approving abortion, or if we publicly speak about supporting abortion,thus influencing others, we are contributing to society as a whole and bringing judgment on our land.
Sodom and Gamorrah did personal acts of immorality, but because the cities went into moral decline and collectively upheld corruption, they were seriously judged by God.
God is slow to anger, but his patience will run out. The Bible is a warning for us to-day also. Sin hasn't gone away since Moses' or Noah's time. It is still here and thriving.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
ahar,
Romans chapter1….
For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. For in it is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, "The one who is righteous by faith will live."
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness.
For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them.
Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse;
for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.
While claiming to be wise, they became fools
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.
Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.
And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God handed them over to their undiscerning mind to do what is improper.
They are filled with every form of wickedness, evil, greed, and malice; full of envy, murder, rivalry, treachery, and spite. They are gossips
and scandalmongers and they hate God. They are insolent, haughty, boastful, ingenious in their wickedness, and rebellious toward their parents.
They are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Although they know the just decree of God that all who practice such things deserve death, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Yahweh has said: A curse causeless does not come (Proverbs 26:2).
I did not bring this curse upon you; you brought this curse upon yourselves because of the evil you are practicing.
Yahweh is dealing with people individually, but Yahweh is still dealing with people collectively…
Within the context of the Church and as Nations
quote:
ahar God doesn't do the Old Testament plague thing any more
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. (Romans 1
Homosexuality is a judgment from Yahweh on the Nation that does not see fit to acknowledge God
God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts…
God handed them over to degrading passions….
God handed them over to their undiscerning mind…
Judgment is not coming, it is here
Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments upon any nation that turns against the Laws of Yahweh.
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
I'm on a train traveling home at the moment (the 15.05 Leeds to London GNER train - free wireless internet access!) so have a very slow connection so I'll keep this brief and try and answer more fully later.
God's judgement is against an individual, not a land. I seem to remember (will look up later) that the Romans quote you gave refers to the evil that people do to themselves and society at large through their own actions - i.e. if you do bad things it degrades the whole of society.
This is very different to bringing a judgement on our land - that kind of statement brings up images of blaming Hurricane Katrina on the immorality of the inhabitants of New Orleans
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. (Romans 1
Homosexuality is a judgment from Yahweh on the Nation that does not see fit to acknowledge God (America is being judged, there is no doubt)
God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts…
God handed them over to degrading passions….
God handed them over to their undiscerning mind…
Judgment is not coming, it is here
Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments upon any nation that turns against the Laws of Yahweh.
ahar if you can not understand the clarity of Romans 1, you are truly as blind as Itty-Bitty Girl
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Proverbs 6:
16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
If you support abortion then you are guilty of the INNOCENT BLOOD of millions of little babies.
Thee are 750,000 females per year that are NOT given the choice of what to do with their own bodies. Their bodies are ripped-apart as others make the choice that they are to be murdered.
Posted by IveyLeaguer (Member # 5493) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Homosexuality is a judgment from Yahweh on the Nation that does not see fit to acknowledge God (America is being judged, there is no doubt) ...
God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts…
God handed them over to degrading passions….
God handed them over to their undiscerning mind…
Judgment is not coming, it is here. Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments ...
IMHO, it is apparent that God has indeed abandoned America, at long last. America abandoned Him many years ago, contrary to popular belief, and He has lifted His restraint of evil and left us to freefall in our burning lusts and passions.
And I would not quibble with the characterization of homosexuality, abortion, feminism, etc., as "escalating judgments", provided they are not confused with THE judgment of America, a consummate judgment that is to come, which I fear awaits us at the end of the present freefall.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
IveyLeaguer
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
That would included taking cocaine or any other addicting drug, being a prostitute, having sex with animals, having sex with people of their same sex if they chose, or if am 10 years old I have the natural-born “right to choose” as a citizen of America I can be a prostitute boy or girl.
First of all: I may not agree with what they do, but they should have the right to choose what they do for themselves, and they should have those rights to choose in all countries, not just America.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
I feel sadly that you are coming against us born-again Christians, and angrily calling us traditionalists, Glacialis Caerul Femella, but I still love you just the same.
Second of all: I am a born-again Christian myself, and I am not coming against any person that is either Christian or non-Christian, but I am coming against traditionalist beliefs that people claim to be biblical and Christian, but in reality, those beliefs are not even biblical.
Anyway, why have you not answered my question about the Chimeras? They came from two embryos fused into one fetus, so how can they be?
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
I would suggest that IF you are over twelve years of age Rose, and IF you have any possibility of possessing any love for Christ, that you examine the TRUTH of abortion and the detriment it causes to women of all ages.
Third of all: God’s truth is in the word of God; I don’t have to look any further, I don’t need to look at someone else’s opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Has any one else noticed how Itty-Bitty Girl keeps referring to an unborn child as a "fetus" to lessen the impact of her and the pro-choice position.
Forth of all: A human fetus is a fetus. I know that the human embryo or fetus is alive, but it is still a MASS of human cells, and it is NOT A PERSON, not a human being. I do not believe that embryos or fetuses are people; they are just the mere origins of people(just as I believe that an unhatched egg is not a chicken; but it is the mere origin of a chicken). Chicken fetuses are not even hatched, but chickens are hatched: just as human fetuses are not even born, but people are born. Human fetuses are developing into people, but they are not already people.
If embryos are truly people with souls, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin started off as two embryos that fused together in the womb to make one person. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are Chimeras two people?
quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
Wouldn't it had been a tragic if God had looked at Saul of Tarsus and said " it is not my right to try to change that person. I mean he has the right to live as he wants even if it means killing my believers. I know Peter doesn't think like Saul/Paul but he's not the only one on Earth.
Fifth of all: God’s believers are PEOPLE, and FETUSES are NOT PEOPLE. And I have not seen anything in the bible to prove that fetuses are people. So if it is your own judgment that abortion is sin, or murder, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE.
quote:
Originally posted by reflectingtheson:
So go on you pro-choice followers and keep killing the 'fetus' and living as it means nothing. It is your choice and thankfully I will never have to answer for it or try to grovel my excuse for it.
Sixth of all: That is according to you and your non-biblical “Christian” traditionalist belief.
Do the “'fetus' and living” have the same potential as the “fetus in fetu”, the fetus that was killing its normally developing fetal twin, and if left inside would kill both the fetus and its twin?
Do the “'fetus' and living” have the same potential as the fetus that was killing its mother and if left inside would kill the both fetus and its mother?
I wonder why I haven’t heard pro-lifers mention these types of fetal cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
If we vote in a president because he upholds abortion and same-sex marriage, if we sign petitions approving abortion, or if we publicly speak about supporting abortion,thus influencing others, we are contributing to society as a whole and bringing judgment on our land.
Seventh of all: According to you, not God.
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Abortion, divorce, homosexuality are all escalating judgments upon any nation that turns against the Laws of Yahweh.
ahar if you can not understand the clarity of Romans 1, you are truly as blind as Itty-Bitty Girl
Eighth of all: You sir, do not speak for God when you say those things, and your opinion does not matter to me. Your opinion is not God’s truth. Your statement is according you, Dale. I see no biblical evidence to support your claim that abortion is sin, let alone murder, so that is your OPINION. You have stated no biblical evidence in the New Testament that God’s judgment is against an ENTIRE land for the sin that people have committed on it.
God's judgment is against the individual, not the whole land, what ahar said is biblical. When the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather those who offend God and practice lawlessness, the wicked will be cast into the fire where they will be in anguish as INDIVIDUAL UNREPENTANT SINNERS, NOT LANDS, and also when the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather the righteous, the righteous will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 13:36-43).
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
If you support abortion then you are guilty of the INNOCENT BLOOD of millions of little babies.
Ninth of all: it is according to you that fetuses are innocent blood, but I see no biblical evidence as proof of this as God’s truth.
quote:
Originally posted by IveyLeaguer:
IMHO, it is apparent that God has indeed abandoned America, at long last. America abandoned Him many years ago, contrary to popular belief, and He has lifted His restraint of evil and left us to freefall in our burning lusts and passions.
Tenth of all: Abandoned America? I believe that in order to “abandon” something, you have to “possess” it first. I don’t even believe that God even possessed America. I don’t even believe that there was ever a “restraint of evil” in place.
Were the “Christian” traditionalists who stole the land from the Native-Americans, who lied about founding this country truly God ordained? No, they appointed themselves as leaders. A group that maintains their so-called “power” through force does not necessarily mean that they are a group put there by God. I do not believe that these people were Christians; I believe they were a bunch of murderers, paupers and thieves; they even condoned non-biblical practices like chattel slavery, they had no love in their hearts.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Your support for abortion is contrary to the Word of God, Rose, and is contrary to the true love of Christ. It is not the Lord Jesus Christ whom you represent in your adament support for the murder of babies.
John 10:10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
I would suggest that IF you are over twelve years of age Rose, and IF you have any possibility of possessing any love for Christ, that you examine the TRUTH of abortion and the detriment it causes to women of all ages.
http://abortiontv.com/
" In September, 1993, Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse with thirteen years or experience, was assigned by her nursing agency to an abortion clinic. Since Nurse Shafer considered herself "very pro-choice," she didn’t think this assignment would be a problem. She was wrong. This is what Nurse Shafer saw:
"I stood at the doctor’s side and watched him perform a partial-birth abortion on a woman who was six months pregnant. The baby’s heartbeat was clearly visible on the ultrasound screen. The doctor delivered the baby’s body and arms, everything but his little head. The baby’s body was moving.his little fingers were clasping together. He was kicking his feet. The doctor took a pair of scissors and inserted them into the back of the baby’s head, and the baby’s arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks that he might fall. Then the doctor opened the scissors up. Then he stuck the high-powered suction tube into the hole and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby was completely limp. I never went back to the clinic. But I am still haunted by the face of that little boy. It was the most perfect, angelic face I have ever seen."
Here's an excerpt from Dr. David Brewer's experience when he performed abortions.
"I remember as we made the incision in the uterus, to see the baby move underneath the sack of membranes as the Caesarian incision was made before the doctor broke the water. The thought came to me, my God, that’s a person! At that instant he broke the water and I had that terrible pain in my heart. He delivered the baby and I couldn’t even touch it. I wasn’t much of an assistant; I just stood there and the reality of what was going on finally began to seep in to my callused brain and heart. We simply took that little baby that was making little sounds and was moving and kicking and set it on the table in a cold stainless steel bowl. Every time I would look over, while we were repairing the incision in the uterus, I would see that little person kicking and moving in that bowl. It kicked and moved less and less as time went on. I can remember going over and looking at that baby when we were done with surgery and the baby was still alive. You could see the chest moving as the heart beat and the baby would try and take a little breath."
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
Right, back now at my desk at home with a decent broadband connection and a good 40 minutes before my next conf call so I can write a proper reply.
Romans, as you know, is a letter from Paul. Therefore, while you can take single lines and use it to support an argument, to read it in the whole you will find a subtly different meaning. Indeed, as you read through to Romans 2 you find that Paul then references the passages before to make points about hypocracy when judging others
First, Romans 1 doesn't mention nations at all - the thrust of it is very specific and personal. It does not predict a judgement against a nation for the actions of its citizen.
Paul is talking about those that know of God, but do nothing about it. Verse 18 clearly states this:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness ;
Verse 20 then says that for people who know who God is and yet turn away from him, there can be no excuse:
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
For these people, God then lets them get on with their sinful ways, described between verses 21 and 32.
At the beginning of chapter 2, Paul then is condemning those that judge others while undertaking the same sins as those they are judging, drawing a parallel between those people and the ones mentioned earlier who have rejected God and who God has abandoned to their sinful ways:
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
In verse 5 we see that being a person described in the previous chapter ('impenitent', that is someone who has not asked for forgiveness) will store up wrath for the day of judgement.
It's a long leap from these two chapters to say that God is judging America. Ivyleager used language to imply that God was preventing sin within the country and has pulled back, thus judging everyone within that country and stopping them from sinning.
"IMHO, it is apparent that God has indeed abandoned America, at long last. America abandoned Him many years ago, contrary to popular belief, and He has lifted His restraint of evil and left us to freefall in our burning lusts and passions."
This implies a collective judgement rather than a personal one. To say that about America would mean that you guys in the US (me being exempt by living in the UK) are also judged. Romans 1 & 2 is personal - those that deny God are storing wrath up for themselves and are left to their sinful ways - those that come to God for forgiveness are helped by God to come away from sin.
Things I suspect are no different today than they have ever been. There is still as much murder, theft, lying, rape, sexual immorality etc as there has ever been. It takes different guises now (e.g. legalised abortion) than it used to and we are tolerant of different sins than we used to be. For example, during the middle ages (before America was colonised), murder, rape and prostitution was far more prevalent and acceptable than it is today. In contrast, homosexuality was punished severly. Now, society is tolerant of homosexuality but not murder - different sins, different times.
So it is with abortion. This does not make it any less of a sin, or mean that it is not serious. This is different though from saying that banning abortion right now is the best course of action that we could take. Would banning it now without the support of a large percentage of the population be the best long term action?
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
Andy and Itty-Bitty Girl, you both would have gotten along well with Hitler.
Murder of the innocent with no remorse, no social out cry agaist evil.
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Andy and Itty-Bitty Girl, you both would have gotten along well with Hitler.
Murder of the innocent with no remorse, no social out cry agaist evil.
Godwin's Law in action it seems. Given just how offensive you've just been, I'll try and stay measured in my reply.
Have you even bothered to read my post? Have you bothered to think about it? Or are you simply looking and seeing that it is not a straight agreement with exactly what you say then I must be a spawn-of-satan-baby-killing-abortionist-murderer.
I seem to remember in the thread regarding Israel you had an issue with finding boxes to put people in. You seem to have two boxes - one is source-of-light-must-agree-exactly-with-me and the other, into which everyone else is put is spawn-of-satan-loves-killing-babies. Independent thought beyond this does seem hard to you, but stick with it, maybe something will penetrate through the fog.
If you had bothered to read any of my posts you would find that I believe abortion is a sin. No debate on that issue.
I did reject two other points - one, the misuse of Romans 1 to make the suggestion that America as a nation is subject to some kind of old testament judgement and two, that banning abortion right now without the support of the majority of the population wouldn't be bad in the long term.
If you wish to continue the debate on the two points above, please continue. If you just want to make offensive remarks and leave your brain in neutral go an watch Oprah and shout at the TV.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
I have never heard of Godwin's Law in action; and do not care to know anything about it.
But I do have an understanding of the Law of Yahweh and His heart, and I know that He is totally unconcerned with what society deems expectable. ie. Abortion
As for Romans 1, I have not misinterpreted it meaning, once Yahweh has judged enough single individuals, the nation is automatically judged.
quote:
This is different though from saying that banning abortion right now is the best course of action that we could take. Would banning it now without the support of a large percentage of the population be the best long term action?
I based my thought’s on this statement.
Abortion for the child of Yahweh can never be the correct action!
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
I have never heard of Godwin's Law in action; and do not care to know anything about it.
Well, I'm going to tell you anyway - Godwin's law states that internet discussions about key topics (like abortion) will always end in one person calling the other a Nazi or saying they are like Hitler. Sad to see it still applies to Christian forums.
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB]
As for Romans 1, I have not misinterpreted it meaning, once Yahweh has judged enough single individuals, the nation is automatically judged.
References to the parts of scripture you are using to support that, with a bit of commentary please. If you cut n paste from another source, can you quote the source as well. Romans 1 and 2 says nothing about nations at all, so I assume you are basing this on another chapter or book.
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
[QB]
quote:
This is different though from saying that banning abortion right now is the best course of action that we could take. Would banning it now without the support of a large percentage of the population be the best long term action?
I based my thought’s on this statement.
Abortion for the child of Yahweh can never be the correct action!
The goal would be to see abortions drop to zero yes? If abortion were to be banned tomorrow this would not happen - abortions took place before Roe vs Wade and they will take place after a ban IF it is not properly thought through and the public are educated as to why this must happen. Otherwise you will end up with just as many abortions happening as before and the ban would be short lived as it would be unpopular and quickly overturned.
Like I said - politics, sociology etc must be considered when talking about a ban.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
Paul is telling us because of their sinfulness they deny the truth that God is the creator which is clearly seen by what He has made; they are under the wrath of God. Adam Clarke's Commentary stated “Rom 1:18 all the pagan nations were utterly corrupt and deserved this threatened punishment.”
http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo26.htm
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, the text of the link doesn't really support what you are saying.
Reading through the entire page, it is an examination of the use of Romans 1 and Acts 17 by Daniel Kikawa in a video regarding belief in God in ancient japanese culture. Romans 1:18 is examined in this context, but the only part that even touches on the judgement of nations is the single line quote from another commentary. In fact, when we read a larger excerp from the text we find that the author of the link was not talking about the judgement of nations opposed to the judgement of individuals. The thrust is still that individuals are subject to God's wrath rather than nations as asserted above:
quote:
[QB]Paul is telling us because of their sinfulness they deny the truth that God is the creator which is clearly seen by what He has made; they are under the wrath of God. Adam Clarke's Commentary stated “Rom 1:18 all the pagan nations were utterly corrupt and deserved this threatened punishment.”
Because of their evil –sinfulness- they hindered the truth, concealed the truth of God from men. It is an indictment on them. Paul is making a statement of guilt in rejecting the true God, not affirming their original belief. Now, as we read the next verses we can understand why. Romans 1:21-25: “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator— who is forever praised. Amen.”
The Bible presents to us that ALL Gentiles-did not glorify God- they intentionally rejected the truth- they did not give thanks to God – and became futile in their thinking, their hearts were darkened which led to idolatry, exchanging the glory of God for images. They were void of any true knowledge. What Kikawa does not understand is that the Gentiles worshipped the creation and when further corruption set in, things made by their own hands - these are what their gods are named after.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
QB]Paul is telling us because of their sinfulness they deny the truth that God is the creator which is clearly seen by what He has made; they are under the wrath of God. Adam Clarke's Commentary stated “Rom 1:18 all the pagan nations were utterly corrupt and deserved this threatened punishment.”
Because of their evil –sinfulness- they hindered the truth, concealed the truth of God from men. It is an indictment on them. Paul is making a statement of guilt in rejecting the true God, not affirming their original belief.
Now, as we read the next verses we can understand why. Romans 1:21-25: “For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator— who is forever praised. Amen.”
They the pagan nations, is the context of the commentary.
God bless your stand Dale. Most Anglicans will be led through the nose by Rome, as they unify the world's religions.
It is no wonder that Andy is deceived and unable to understand context. The UK is pretty darkened as far as the light of Believers, just as devoid of the light of Christ, as the US is becoming. Like the 5 foolish virgins, there is no oil in their lamps, even though they speak the name of Christ in the dead churches, their hearts are not filled with the Spirit of God.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Your support for abortion is contrary to the Word of God, Rose, and is contrary to the true love of Christ. It is not the Lord Jesus Christ whom you represent in your adament support for the murder of babies.
John 10:10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
According to you and your belief. Why do you use this scripture about Jesus coming so that people can have eternal life? What does this have to do with a fetus?
Why do you want this verse to apply to fetuses so bad? Why? A human fetus is not even a person.
And I am not Rose.
Posted by TEXASGRANDMA (Member # 847) on
:
The Bible makes it clear that an unborn person is still a person to God. Before Jacob and Esau was born, God told their mom that they were fighting in the womb. God said in several places in the Bible that He knew us before we were born. Killing a unborn baby is still killing a human being. Women have a choice. They can choose not to have unprotected sex. When my mom was pregnant with me, the doctor told her to have an abortion, because I was dead. Thank God, that my mom prayed and had peace that I would be born alive. I am 54 years old and still kicking. Pro choice is not able choosing to have a baby or not, it is all about having the right to kill a baby, because the child is incovienent for the mother. Far too many women use abortion as birth control. We are all here because our moms gave us a chance to be born. We as women owe the same consideration to our un born babies.
betty
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
When my mom was pregnant with me, the doctor told her to have an abortion, because I was dead. Thank God, that my mom prayed and had peace that I would be born alive. I am 54 years old and still kicking.
This is the chilling reality of what could happen if women don't protect the rights of their unborn child. This isn't an isolated case by any means. I have even heard of cases of children being born because of a brutal rape, and they are so happy their mother wasn't pressured into aborting them.
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Your support for abortion is contrary to the Word of God, Rose, and is contrary to the true love of Christ. It is not the Lord Jesus Christ whom you represent in your adament support for the murder of babies.
John 10:10
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
According to you and your belief. Why do you use this scripture about Jesus coming so that people can have eternal life? What does this have to do with a fetus?
Why do you want this verse to apply to fetuses so bad? Why? A human fetus is not even a person.
And I am not Rose.
Because Rose it is not the Lord Jesus Christ that leads women to butcher their babies on the alter of convenience.
Posted by ahar (Member # 5810) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
QB]
It is no wonder that Andy is deceived and unable to understand context. The UK is pretty darkened as far as the light of Believers, just as devoid of the light of Christ, as the US is becoming. Like the 5 foolish virgins, there is no oil in their lamps, even though they speak the name of Christ in the dead churches, their hearts are not filled with the Spirit of God.
DECEIVED? ABOUT WHAT? THE CONTEXT AND SPECIFIC MEANING OF A SINGLE BOOK?
I give up. I'm fed up with Caretaker's useless back biting comments. You bring nothing to the discussion and simply make personal comments, accusations and insults. I was pretty restrained earlier after being compared to Hitler and yet this continues. Instead of providing anything you just cut n paste from whatever internet site first comes up in a google list.
You just sit in your insular little worlds and continue to talk - all you hear coming back is the sound of your own voice relflected from inside your head. Rome = bad. Anyone who disagrees with me on anything is bad. Therefore they are under the influence of Rome. He is also from the UK so UK = bad. Therefore UK is under the influence of Rome.
God bless both of you - you certianly need it.
Posted by artm (Member # 6243) on
:
Hi, I am new to this site and just want to to say hello to everyone here today.
I would also like to respond to a post I saw on the topic of abortion.
Please be patient as I try and respond to certain remarks made on this topic.
Someone mentioned being a " conservative Christiann verses a liberal Christian. How about a " Biblical Christian."
One who bases all opions from the Word of God. A Christian is one who has accepted Christ as their personal Saviour, And who accepts the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
someone said they don't know what God thinks about abortion.
Please allow me to try and explain what God says about abortion,according to the Bible.
First,Its hard for me to imagine Jesus condoning abortion today. It goes against everything that Christ stands for.
How can we say the Love of God and abortion in the same breath ? Where is compassion in abortion.?
Psalm 106:37-38 Declares: Yea,they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood,Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters.
The land was polluted with the blood of the innocent children. And this from those who claimed to be people of God.
Abortion is the sacrifice of innocent babies to the idols of pleasure, And the idols of lust and fornication.
Exodus 20:13 Declares: Thou shalt not kill.
This is actually translated, " Thou shalt do no murder"
Abortion is an act of murder. It is the murder of unborn babies, the shedding of innocent blood.
Leviticus 19:18 Declares: Love thy neighbour as thyself. Where is there any love in the act of abortion.? Where is the love in the slaughter of some four million unborn babies a year in America.?
If Christ is the ultimate example for the Christian, Where does he fit in the act of abortion?
I personally do not understand how one can be a Bible believing Christian,and pro-abortion at the same time.
America will face the judgement of God for its murder of millions of unborn babies every year.
Every abortion doctor, every nurse who aids in abortion,and every woman and every man will stand before a Holy God and give account for murder.
Every politician,And every voter who helped put these people in office knowing their support of abortion will give account also.
The scriptures exhort us to " not be partakers in other mens sins."
2-Chronciles says, " If my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray,And seek my face, And turn from their wicked ways,Then will I hear from heaven and will heal their land."
I know that for many this is a hard word,and some will reject it,And that is ok, For one day soon God will set everything in order.
God bless you all.
art
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
Hi, I am new to this site and just want to to say hello to everyone here today.
Welcome to the forums artm.
quote:
Originally posted by artm:Psalm 106:37-38 Declares: Yea,they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood,Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters.
The land was polluted with the blood of the innocent children. And this from those who claimed to be people of God.
Abortion is the sacrifice of innocent babies to the idols of pleasure, And the idols of lust and fornication.
This is indeed a very powerful word. That is exactly what happens with abortion, and as you say, every guilty person involved, will have to stand in judgment. We can't stress this too strongly -
quote:
America will face the judgement of God for its murder of millions of unborn babies every year.
Every abortion doctor, every nurse who aids in abortion,and every woman and every man will stand before a Holy God and give account for murder.
Every politician,And every voter who helped put these people in office knowing their support of abortion will give account also.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
American Abortion Counter
http://www.biblehelp.org/abortioncnt.htm
41,476,523 MURDERED INNOCENT UN-BORN AMERICANS x (200 millilitres of blood or 6 ½ fluid ounces)/128 US fluid ounces =
2,106,229 Gallons of INNOCENT UNBORN AMERICAN BLOOD.
Down the drain reprocessed then back into the drinking water of the people.
No longer does the blood cry up from the ground but from the very water we drink.
Lev.17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Gen.4
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The Bible makes it clear that an unborn person is still a person to God.
Not to me, I can’t see it in there where God says that a fetus is a person.
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
They can choose not to have unprotected sex.
I don’t believe that rape is a choice. What if a woman is raped and got pregnant and does not want to have the child? Not every victim of a rape wants to have the child of her rapist.
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Pro choice is not able choosing to have a baby or not, it is all about having the right to kill a baby, because the child is incovienent for the mother.
That is your opinion. I believe that fetuses don’t have rights, people have rights. A woman is a person, and she should be entitled to her rights here in America if this is truly a free country. What right does a person have to infringe upon the rights of others?
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Because Rose it is not the Lord Jesus Christ that leads women to butcher their babies on the alter of convenience.
Fetuses are not people to me. And I have told you that I am not Rose, would you please STOP calling me Rose? I find that very insulting, offensive and rude for you to continue calling me a name that I have told you was not mine.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
Hello, artm.
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
One who bases all opions from the Word of God. A Christian is one who has accepted Christ as their personal Saviour, And who accepts the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
How can someone who said that, turn around and say this completely non-biblical statement here:
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
America will face the judgement of God for its murder of millions of unborn babies every year.
Every abortion doctor, every nurse who aids in abortion,and every woman and every man will stand before a Holy God and give account for murder.
Every politician,And every voter who helped put these people in office knowing their support of abortion will give account also.
? That is completely non-biblical. God’s judgment abides on an individual, not the whole land for the sin of an individual. When the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather those who offend God and practice lawlessness, the wicked will be cast into the fire where they will be in anguish as INDIVIDUAL UNREPENTANT SINNERS, NOT LANDS, and also when the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather the righteous, the righteous will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 13:36-43).
We all are entitled to our own opinions, but when a person puts their own opinions in the bible and tries to pass them off as biblical truth then THAT IS A PROBLEM. So if it is your own opinion and judgment, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE. I see no biblical evidence to support your claim that abortion is sin, let alone murder, so that is your OPINION.
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
Psalm 106:37-38 Declares: Yea,they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood,Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters.
The land was polluted with the blood of the innocent children. And this from those who claimed to be people of God.
Abortion is the sacrifice of innocent babies to the idols of pleasure, And the idols of lust and fornication.
Okay, where is proof in the bible that the verse that you have cited applies to fetuses? Where is it? Where is it? Why can’t I find that in the bible? It appears to be all according to you. So it looks to me like you have inserted your own judgment into God’s word.
Rape is not a pleasure to a woman, not every victim of a rape wants to have the child of her rapist. So what idol do they “sacrifice” their “innocent babies” to? How can a person murder what isn’t even born?
Posted by Caretaker (Member # 36) on
:
Well Rose there is nothing of any merit, or credibility, in your position. Your position is absolutely contrary to God, contrary to His Word, and neither is your pro-abortion position worthy of any form of respect.
What about Rape?
What about a woman who is pregnant due to rape or incest?
Less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape or incest. Furthermore, since conception doesn’t occur immediately after intercourse, pregnancy can be prevented in nearly all rape cases by medical treatments including the morning after pill (MAP).
Nearly all the women interviewed in a recent survey said they regretted aborting the babies conceived via rape or incest. Of those giving an opinion, more than 90 percent said they would discourage other victims of sexual violence from having an abortion (see report)
Finally, if you found out today that your biological father had raped your mother, would you feel you no longer had a right to live?
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/abortion.html
Abortion Is An Act of Murder
In reference to pregnant women, the term "with child" occurs twenty-six times in the Bible. The term "with fetus" never occurs once.
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!
Dear reader, please answer a question: What is an "infant?" Get the answer in your mind and keep it there for a moment. Do you have it? Okay, please consider Job 3:16: "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light." Did you see that? Job referred to unborn children as INFANTS. Not fetuses! Not masses of tissue! INFANTS! In God's eyes, an unborn child is a living human baby. God never says once that an unborn child is anything less than a human being.
David said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." He did not say that a fetus was shapen in iniquity and conceived in iniquity. David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that HE was conceived. David, not a blob of tissue, was conceived.
The same is the case in Psalm 139:13-16:
"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."
Who was in the womb? David! A literal and living person. The Bible never uses anything less than human terms to describe the unborn.
Notice that in Jeremiah 1:5 we are told that God KNEW Jeremiah:"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
To further confirm the fact that God views the unborn child as a person, please consider Exodus 21:22-23:
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"
If the woman has a premature birth and the child lives ("no mischief follows"), then there's no death penalty. However, if the child dies (or the woman dies) God says the death penalty applies: "thou shalt give life for life." Why would God require the death penalty if He didn't consider the unborn child to be a human being?
Friend, like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.
But the Bible isn't alone in declaring this truth. Science also declares that an unborn child is just as much an independent human being as you. The original human cell consists of 46 chromosomes, 23 from each parent. At no point during pregnancy does the mother contribute any new cells to the child. The original cell divides itself and multiplies to provide development and growth for the child. Scientifically speaking, the child is just as independent at six months before birth as he will be six months after birth. Yes, the mother does provide nourishment to the unborn child, but she also provides nourishment to the newborn child!
At two weeks pregnancy, the "fetus" can move alone. By four weeks the child has limbs, muscle tissue, a heart and heartbeat. Ears, eyes, and small hands are visible by the fifth week. The child responds to touch sensations by the sixth or seventh week. At eight weeks, the baby sometimes tries to take a breath when removed from the mother. At twelve weeks, the child will often struggle for life two or three hours when removed from the mother.
Friend, abortion is wrong because abortion is MURDER!
Abortion Involves the Shedding of Innocent Blood
Proverbs 6:16-17 says that God HATES those who shed innocent blood! Deuteronomy 27:25 says, "Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen."
Who could possibly be more innocent than an unborn baby?! Yet, our society has become so wicked that it condones the slaying of 1.5 million innocent children every year.
The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.
Posted by artm (Member # 6243) on
:
Hi, I am amazed at the number of people within the church who actually do not know what murder is.
They do not know what it is to take a life and cause that life to physically die.
If all the scripture we had was "Thou shalt not kill" One would think that would be enough.
What is the purpose for aborting a baby ?. Very few are for the health,Or life of the mother.
Most abortions are for nothing more than to end a pregnancy that was caused because of sex outside of marriage.
Most abortions are for nothing more than ending a life that came about because of sin,fornication,and lust.
For many that abortion will correct a mistake,or a moment of careless passion.
God help us.
For a Christian to support abortion is of great concern to me. it concerns me because to me it puts that brother or sister on the opposite side of the Word of God.
Some ask, " Where does it say in the Bible that abortion is sin, Or where does it say that a woman does not have the right to choose ?
I would ask, " where does the Bible say that abortion is acceptable to God ? Or that a woman has the right to end the life of the unwanted child.?
We could continue this subject untill Christ returns,But if it is in the heart of a person to accept this practise there is nothing that I can say that will change their mind.
If the Word of God can't change their mind I don't have a chanch.
I have no reason to believe that those involved in this topic are ignorant of the Word of God, So then I must conclude that there is another problem.
How someone can read the Bible to any degree at all, and can still say that abortion is acceptable to any degree is amazing to me.
I will not judge anyone's salvation that is the right of Almighty God alone.
But God has given the church the right to examine and judge what a person may teach or declare to be the Word of God.
As I understand the Word of God,Abortion is sin,being the murder of an unborn baby.
Others will disagree,so be it, God will soon set everything in order.
God bless, Pastor Mann
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Not to me, I can’t see it in there where God says that a fetus is a person.
You say it is not biblical that a fetus is a person. The word 'prodigal' isn't in the Bible, the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible, such as the word 'fetus' is not in the Bible, but references are made to all of the above in the Bible.
Psalm 51:5 For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
"From the moment my mother conceived me" implies that there is a person inside the womb,'Me'. I'm sure you have seen many pictures of ultrasounds. Apparently sometimes the tiny person sucks its thumb or hiccups. They can tell the gender of a child by an ultrasound, which indicates that there is a little person inside.
There is nothing more compelling than -
quote:
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped.
Maybe you are in denial about the reality of impact of abortion -
Main Entry: de·ni·al
Pronunciation: di-'nI(-&)l, dE-
Function: noun
2 a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false b : refusal to acknowledge a person or a thing :
5 : negation in logic
There is no denying the sin of abortion. We can't play God - it is murder. However, God will forgive any sin with his endless grace and mercy.
Posted by artm (Member # 6243) on
:
Please forgive me, But just as a PS.
I want to remind everyone who has had an abortion, There is FORGIVNESS.
Thank God, Because if God would not forgive those who have committed murder by way of abortion, then who could be saved of any sin ?
The devil will tell people that God can never forgive them such a horrible sin,That is a lie,Jesus came to earth to save that which was lost.
Thats you and me,Ask Jesus to forgive you,He will,
God loves you,Repent from your heart,and let Jesus in.
God bless. Pastor Mann
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
:
When The Pain Won’t Go Away: Dealing With The Aftereffects Of Abortion
Since the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, over 40 million pregnancies have been terminated in the US by abortion. Each year, an estimated 50 million abortions occur worldwide. Many struggle in silence for years with the pain of what they did. The purpose of this booklet is to provide understanding and hope for women who are struggling with the trauma of a past abortion. It addresses their secret pain and loss, and offers the comfort of Christ to their uniquely broken heart.
The purpose of this booklet is to provide understanding and hope for a woman struggling with the trauma of a past abortion. If you're that woman, we want you to know that you're not alone. Someone cares and understands. Healing is possible, through a path of sorrow that leads to repentance, forgiveness, freedom, and joy (2 Cor. 7:10). Jesus offered hope to His followers--no matter what they had done--when He taught, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted" (Mt. 5:4).
Click Here to read this free online booklet in PDF format.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
As we all know, Scott Peterson, was found guilty for the double homicide of his wife Laci Peterson and their unborn child, Connor.
Laci's mother, Sharon Rocha, was on Larry King last night, and they were pointing out that Pres. Bush signed an unborn victims of violence law in April 2004, through the Fed. Govt., protecting the rights of an unborn child.
Still abortions run rampant. The devil must be having a great chuckle out of this hypoctrical world we have created through the assistance of his crafty tactics.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.
Who does Jesus hate, Drew?
The shedding of innocent blood is murder, but murder kills people. Cain killed Abel, that was murder because a person was killed. I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person.
P.S. I am NOT ROSE, could you please stop calling me that name?
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
"From the moment my mother conceived me" implies that there is a person inside the womb,'Me'. I'm sure you have seen many pictures of ultrasounds. Apparently sometimes the tiny person sucks its thumb or hiccups. They can tell the gender of a child by an ultrasound, which indicates that there is a little person inside.
Anyway, why have you not answered my question about the Chimeras? They came from two embryos fused into one fetus, so how can they be?
If embryos are truly people with souls, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin started off as two embryos that fused together in the womb to make one person. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are Chimeras two people?
Why don’t you seem to have an answer for that while you seem to claim that I am the one in denial?
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Maybe you are in denial about the reality of impact of abortion -
Main Entry: de·ni·al
Pronunciation: di-'nI(-&)l, dE-
Function: noun
2 a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false b : refusal to acknowledge a person or a thing :
5 : negation in logic
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped.
As I have said, a fetus can be called a babe.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
There is no denying the sin of abortion. We can't play God - it is murder. However, God will forgive any sin with his endless grace and mercy.
I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it. I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I refuse to infringe upon the rights of others that seem okay with it. I see nowhere in the bible where it tells me to infringe upon the rights of others that do not believe as I do.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If embryos are truly people with souls, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin started off as two embryos that fused together in the womb to make one person. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are Chimeras two people?
An embryo is not a person until it is fertilized. You say that Chimeras fuses two embryos together to make one person. That person would have one soul once it is fertilized.
quote:
As I have said, a fetus can be called a babe.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
You have said that it is not a human being.
quote:
I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it. I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I refuse to infringe upon the rights of others that seem okay with it. I see nowhere in the bible where it tells me to infringe upon the rights of others that do not believe as I do.
Jesus didn't condemn either, but he did say to the woman caught in the act of adultery-
John 8: 11 She said, "No man, Lord." And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on
:
Itty Bitty says
quote:
As I have said, a fetus can be called a babe.
But that is not what you said -
You said
quote:
Fetuses are not people to me.
and you said
quote:
Okay, where is proof in the bible that the verse that you have cited applies to fetuses? Where is it? Where is it? Why can’t I find that in the bible? It appears to be all according to you. So it looks to me like you have inserted your own judgment into God’s word.
And you said
quote:
I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person.
Then Caretaker said
quote:
Well Rose there is nothing of any merit, or credibility, in your position. Your position is absolutely contrary to God, contrary to His Word, and neither is your pro-abortion position worthy of any form of respect.
AMEN...
Abortion advocates contend that the Bible is silent on abortion and that none of the biblical passages cited by pro-life advocates actually say the unborn are human. Are we to conclude from this alleged silence that elective abortion is morally permitted?
There are good reasons to say no. First, the Bible’s lack of explicit prohibitions against abortion does not mean that it condones the practice; instead, Scripture writers did not believe prohibitions against abortion were necessary because neither the Hebrews of the
Old Testament nor the Christians of the New Testament were likely to kill their unborn children.
Second, the Bible need not explicitly say elective abortion is wrong before we can know that it’s wrong. The Bible affirms that all humans are valuable because they bear God’s image. Science clearly demonstrates that the
unborn are unquestionably human from the earliest stages of development.
Biblical commands against the unjust taking of human life, therefore, apply to the unborn as they do other human beings. Third, abortion advocates cannot account for basic human equality. If humans are valuable only because of some acquired property such as self-awareness, then it follows that since this acquired property comes in varying degrees, basic human rights also come in varying degrees. It’s far more reasonable theologically to argue that although humans differ immensely in their respective degrees of development, they are nonetheless equally valuable because they have in common a nature made in the image of God.
Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on
:
And what do the Chimera have to do with it anyway?
Do they appear in some biblical text I am unaware of?
Since when does Greek Mythology have ANYTHING to do with God, Jesus Christ, or the Church?
The mix if a lion, goat, snake, and whatever else they were supposed to be has little to do with the biblical ramifications of abortion.
Were you referring to Cherabims perhaps?
The only beings MY bible refers to are human, God, Archangels, Cherabim, Seraphim, Angels, Satan, Demons, Devils...No Chimera....
Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on
:
And no where does it say 2 people have to be married to have sex, why cant they just live together? OR drinking a beer is wrong. Or gambling is wrong. Or rap/rock music is wrong. Or me giving more rights to a green person over a purple one. ETC ETC ETC.
But you have to use a little common sense. Youre twisting the words Rose, its wrong and regardless of the reasoning you come up with, its still wrong. Its a life, if you abort it, you killed it.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
Voice of an unborn child
Secretly..I've been formed
Noone knows for sure when I'll be born
I could be early, I could be late
I could be born right on the date
But it's no secret..how I was created
And the Father above....he knows me
I don't understand..how I could be hated
and you kill me...you kill me.....
What did I do? What have I done?
Don't you want to have a daughter or a son?
You say it's your body, you say it's your life
But I'm really someone growing inside
But it's no secret..how I was created
And the Father above....he knows me
I don't understand..how I could be hated
and you kill me...you kill me.....
I cannot speak, nor can I walk
So I depend on you to please make them stop!
I have a body, with fingers and toes
And I have a heartbeat, thump-thump it goes.....
thump-thump it goes....thump-thump it goes....
Please let me live.
Don't let me die
Life is something we all should try
If you don't want me, somebody will
Then you can have your life...
....and I'll have my life still
This is a song written by Melissa Henry and is part of a tape entitled Song Harvest
Every year in the United States, Nearly one and a half million babies are murdered by their own mother.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
:
American Abortion Counter
http://www.biblehelp.org/abortioncnt.htm
41,476,523 MURDERED INNOCENT UN-BORN AMERICANS x (200 millilitres of blood or 6 ½ fluid ounces)/128 US fluid ounces =
2,106,229 Gallons of INNOCENT UNBORN AMERICAN BLOOD.
Down the drain reprocessed then back into the drinking water of the people.
No longer does the blood cry up from the ground but from the very water we drink.
Lev.17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Gen.4
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on
:
Here is a link to a video I made awhile back - When the "Roe vs Wade" decision anniversary came up.
Be sure to have the sound on - You'll hear and see "Roe" and her public confession of Jesus Christ and her desire to see the Supreme Courts overturn what she did in 1973...
Abortion
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
Blessed are the children!
-Glacialis Caerul Femella
"And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
Win us with honest trifles, to betray 's
In deepest consequence." -- William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
It’s legal.
It’s "Constitutional."
It’s been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.
People still protest it despite its obvious legality.
The media has instituted a self-imposed "blackout" of the opposition.
The U.S. Mail has banned the mailing of certain opposition literature.
Compared to other controversial "free speech" issues, Congress and the courts have greatly stifled the voices of opposition.
It’s an issue of "choice."
It’s a "privacy issue" that concerns no one else.
It’s not human life protected by the law (thus it can be terminated).
Those who oppose it are "troublemaking intolerant bigots."
I have a right to do this. I would be deprived of my Constitutional rights of "liberty and justice" if I am restricted in this area.
Sound familiar? It should; it’s talking about American slavery. These are the things people have said about slavery before it was finally abolished. Slaveholders actually felt that their Constitutional rights to "liberty and justice" would be violated if they were told they couldn’t violate the liberty and justice of a black person.
Now, 150 years later, we wonder how these people couldn’t see the obvious contradictions of such statements. Yet, we are doing the exact same thing with abortion. We are told that the unborn child is the personal property of the women and she has the right to do whatever she wants with it.
Treating human life as property is wrong in any century. America’s treatment of the unborn child is just as deplorable and despicable as America’s past treatment of slaves. There is no difference. If you feel slavery is wrong, you have to say abortion is wrong. The parallels between abortion and slavery are too great to ignore. Either our Constitution supports both or opposes both. Either we abolish abortion or we have to legalize slavery. Americans need to decide, once and for all, if human life can be treated as property.
To obtain a poster of these facts, go to the Poster page
http://www.biblehelp.org/prochoice.htm
(the poster's name is "Comparing Abortion and Slavery")
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
Here is a link to a video I made awhile back - When the "Roe vs Wade" decision anniversary came up.
Be sure to have the sound on - You'll hear and see "Roe" and her public confession of Jesus Christ and her desire to see the Supreme Courts overturn what she did in 1973...
Abortion
Very good video, thanks for posting the link.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
An embryo is not a person until it is fertilized. You say that Chimeras fuses two embryos together to make one person. That person would have one soul once it is fertilized.
In the first place: “Once the egg is fertilized it has become God's creation from the moment of conception, not to be tampered with”, right?
That is what you have said here:
quote:
However, once the egg is fertilized it has become God's creation from the moment of conception, not to be tampered with.
On page #1.
In 1998, doctors at the University of Edinburgh highlighted a case in which two embryos, one male and one female, fused in development to form a single child.
Source cited: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3264467.stm
So in simple terms: Two eggs are fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into two non-identical embryo twins, but under some bizarre circumstances, both embryos end up fused together in the womb, and the mother ends up giving birth to one child. <This is not some sci-fi flick either: this is real life. > Around 30 cases of chimerism have been reported.
A mother had been pregnant with non-identical twins who had fused together in the womb to make one person.
So if the fertilized eggs(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll) are truly people, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin in the womb started off as two fertilized eggs. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are they two people?
Do you have an answer for that, “Good NewsforAll”?
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
You have said that it is not a human being.
In the second place: I have said that a fetus is not a person because that is what I believe; a human fetus is human, but it is not yet a person. I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person. I believe it can be called a babe or even a child because it is human, but it is still a fetus nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
And what do the Chimera have to do with it anyway?
In the third place: I am using Chimeras as an example to support my belief that fetuses are not people, they are human but NOT people.
God made all people; Chimeras are people so God made them too.
The term “Chimerism” is used to describe their condition.
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
The only beings MY bible refers to are human, God, Archangels, Cherabim, Seraphim, Angels, Satan, Demons, Devils...No Chimera....
In the forth place: Chimeras are the people that I believe you have just insulted. I believe that you are saying that Chimeras are not even human. CHIMERAS ARE HUMAN, AND THEY ARE REAL. Please do not deny reality.
Chimerism
A “Chimera” is NOT just some mythical creature; Chimeras are real. A Chimera woman said: ”Myth no longer it is now realistic and I'm living proof.” Source cited: http://www.geocities.com/mylifewithchimera/Chimera.html
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
And no where does it say 2 people have to be married to have sex, why cant they just live together?
In the fifth place: Fornication is sin, and that is in the bible. I believe that people need to be married in God’s eyes and live together, God’s eyes are more important than the eyes of men. As long as God sees the two people as married, it should be okay for them to live together.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
OR drinking a beer is wrong.
In the sixth place: I cannot find that it is a sin to drink a beer in the bible. As far as I know, it is a sin to get drunk off beer, not to drink beer. I believe that it is okay to drink, but it is not okay to get drunk. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Or gambling is wrong.
In the seventh place: I cannot find that it is a sin to gamble in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Or rap/rock music is wrong.
In the eighth place: I cannot find that rap/rock music is a sin in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God. And I feel betrayed by the person who told me that rap was “satanic”.
I was doing a little research on hip-hop culture and rap music and I found that the things that person told me about it were not true. Rap stared off as innocent poetry and music, my true authentic culture… But it was getting little radio play; artists craved a bigger audience so they had to change the music to a commercial(worldly) style that would reach the masses.
So-called hip-hop culture is the result of record labels selling themselves out to the corporate interests. Many mainstream rap acts commercialized rap, and they perverted it, which could be why most mainstream acts sound and look alike to me. Rap did not surface to the masses as authentic; it surfaced as a worldly gimmick in order to reach them.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Youre twisting the words Rose, its wrong and regardless of the reasoning you come up with, its still wrong. Its a life, if you abort it, you killed it.
In the ninth place: I cannot find that abortion is a sin in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God.
I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it. I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I refuse to infringe upon the rights of others that seem okay with it. I see nowhere in the bible where it tells me to infringe upon the rights of others that do not believe as I do.
And in the tenth place: My name is not Rose, you can call me Glacialis or even Glac for short, shadowmaker.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Sound familiar? It should; it’s talking about American slavery. These are the things people have said about slavery before it was finally abolished. Slaveholders actually felt that their Constitutional rights to "liberty and justice" would be violated if they were told they couldn’t violate the liberty and justice of a black person.
A black person is a person, a fetus is NOT a person. Black people were not in the wombs of white slave owners. THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
Fetuses were not brought here on slaveships, urinating and deficating on themselves stacked on top of eachother like cargo.
Fetuses were not forced to work from daytime to nighttime for nothing.
Fetuses were not bred like animals.
Fetuses were not raped and beaten and castrated.
Fetuses were not taken away from their families.
Fetuses were not whipped and beaten for mixing the blood of their thorncut fingertips with the white cotton that they were forced to pick for hours in the hot sun.
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
(the poster's name is "Comparing Abortion and Slavery")
That is offensive to me as a black person to see that someone could actually try to compare abortion to the forced migration and enslavement of black people, when THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
Posted by becauseHElives (Member # 87) on
:
quote:
A black person is a person, a fetus is NOT a person. Black people were not in the wombs of white slave owners. THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
Fetuses are persons
quote:
Fetuses were not brought here on slaveships, urinating and deficating on themselves stacked on top of eachother like cargo.
No but fetuses are killed, torn apart alive and dead bodies piled on top of each others in garbage cans
quote:
Fetuses were not forced to work from daytime to nighttime for nothing.
no, they never even been given the chance.
quote:
Fetuses were not bred like animals.
Fetuses are being bred like animals for stem cell research!
quote:
Fetuses were not raped and beaten and castrated.
Fetuses are being torn apart, bodies dismembered while still alive and trown in thrash!
quote:
Fetuses were not taken away from their families.
Fetuses are being taken away from families, taken from grandfathers, grandmother, uncles, aunts, cousins (in most cases of abortion some family member would be willing to give the fetuse/baby a home)!
quote:
Fetuses were not whipped and beaten for mixing the blood of their thorncut fingertips with the white cotton that they were forced to pick for hours in the hot sun.
Fetuses were never given the chance!
http://www.blackgenocide.org/abortion.html
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
The statistical numbers of abortions is mind-boggling. The Holy Spirit must be deeply grieved.
John 11:35 Jesus wept.
Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on
:
Youre actually thinking for yourself now. Dont know where I m proud of you or shocked. These are some of the arguments I had with you when you first came to this board. This is exactly what I was trying to get you to see. Read it for yourself instead of automatically believing something you hear.
Youre right, its not wrong to drink a beer, but to get drunk it is. The thing is, if youre a christian and youre sitting in a restraunt eating, and someone youve been witnessing to, sees you drinking that beer..It can cause them to stumble. They dont know if you ve had 1 or 12 and they can think, if theyre are drinking, WHY should I go to church?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that 2 people have to be married by a pastor or anybody to have sex. How come those 2 people cant be faithful to each other and never get that piece of paper? How come that cant declare their love for each other and be married in Gods eyes?
But you are wrong on the abortion issue. IT is a life regardless of how you try to get around it. I do agree that they are instants where abortion may not be wrong. My problem with it though is using it as a form of birth control and the partial birth abortion.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
But you are wrong on the abortion issue. IT is a life regardless of how you try to get around it. I do agree that they are instants where abortion may not be wrong. My problem with it though is using it as a form of birth control and the partial birth abortion.
I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless, that is my understanding of it. If the fetus were a born person, then it would not be the woman’s choice.
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.
I don't like the idea of some other person telling another person what to do with their own body, it just is an infringement of the rights of another and that is just wrong to me.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless that is my understanding of it. If the fetus were a born person, then it would not be the woman’s choice.
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.
Just take a serious look at what you are saying. You say "I have no doubt that the fetus is alive," so according to you, it is an alive nothing because it is inside of a woman but not outside of her?
Then you say,"The fetus is IN the woman's body,", so it is not her body we are talking about, but what is inside. We see from this that she is not deciding what to do with HER body, but the tiny defenceless body that is inside of her.
quote:
I don't like the idea of some other person telling another person what to do with their own body, it just is an infringement of the rights of another and that is just wrong to me.
Where does God fit into this picture? As Christians, our every decision should come from Him. He is our only source in the time of trouble.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Just take a serious look at what you are saying. You say "I have no doubt that the fetus is alive," so according to you, it is an alive nothing because it is inside of a woman but not outside of her?
Then you say,"The fetus is IN the woman's body,", so it is not her body we are talking about, but what is inside. We see from this that she is not deciding what to do with HER body, but the tiny defenceless body that is inside of her.
It should be the woman's choice to make that decision, not mine. A fetus is not a person, a woman is a person. The woman's body, the woman's choice; that is just how I feel.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Where does God fit into this picture? As Christians, our every decision should come from Him. He is our only source in the time of trouble.
I believe that my decision to not interfere with a person's rights comes from God, because I would not like to have my own rights infringed upon, so I do not wish to infringe on the rights of another. I must love others as I love myself.
Posted by Thunderz7 (Member # 31) on
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Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
From the Greek
babe = brephos
used 8 times in the KJV
babe 5, child 1, infant 1, young child 1;
The WORD says John Baptist was a "babe", a child, an infant, a young child in the womb of Ellizabeth, when he leaped at the salutation of Mary.
The WORD clearly says the fetus in Elizabeth WAS A PERSON.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
YHWH knew the PERSON Jeremiah, before he was a fetus in the belly of his mother.
YHWH sanctified the PERSON Jeremiah, while he was a fetus in the womb of his mother.
YHWH ordained the PERSON Jeremiah, to be a prophet unto the nations.
It is clear from the WORD of GOD that Jeremiah was a PERSON that GOD knew -
before he was a fetus,
WHILE he was a fetus,
after he was a fetus.
Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jesus existed before HE was conceived in the womb of of Mary.
Jesus still exist and always will.
Is there anyone who will say,
"a fetus is not a person",
and spread the heresy that there was a period of nine months, that Jesus did not exist?
Gen 25:
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
In the Hebrew/Aramaic it is clear that children(v.22) and people(v.23) are PERSONS
children - ben
used 4906 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS,
never as a non-person.
people - lehome
used 36 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS.
Thus again,
the WORD of GOD says a fetus is a PERSON.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
:
What about the heart of the woman who has the desire to abort? Has the seed of sin been planted in her through an adulterous affair or fornication out of wedlock? Why would she want to get rid of her baby?
There are moral and dishonorable motives, in addtion to the abortion, that have to be dealt in making such a drastic decision. Is she in danger of eternal judgment if the sin is not uprooted?
I may be told that 'it is the woman's business what she does with her body,' and I should not condemn. Like Jesus I must not condemn, but like Jesus I can also say, "Go and sin no more." If not, this would give her the right to have as many abortions as she wants to if this sin is not recognized and uprooted.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
From the Greek
babe = brephos
used 8 times in the KJV
babe 5, child 1, infant 1, young child 1;
The WORD says John Baptist was a "babe", a child, an infant, a young child in the womb of Ellizabeth, when he leaped at the salutation of Mary.
As I have said before and NOW say AGAIN: a fetus can be called a babe.
I have said that a fetus is not a person because that is what I believe; a human fetus is human, but it is not yet a person. I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person. It can be called a babe or even a child because it is human, but it is still a fetus nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
YHWH knew the PERSON Jeremiah, before he was a fetus in the belly of his mother.
YHWH sanctified the PERSON Jeremiah, while he was a fetus in the womb of his mother.
YHWH ordained the PERSON Jeremiah, to be a prophet unto the nations.
It is clear from the WORD of GOD that Jeremiah was a PERSON that GOD knew -
before he was a fetus,
WHILE he was a fetus,
after he was a fetus.
The scripture is saying that he knew Jeremiah even before he was born; he was predestined. The scripture is not saying that the fetus in the womb was a person.
A woman does not give birth to fetuses, she gives birth to people. I do not believe that they are people in the womb; they are living human fetuses in the womb.
I believe that fetuses are not people, but they are simply the origins of people. In the womb, a human is developing, being formed, being “knit” together, or being made into a person. They are not being formed into people outside the womb, but on the inside of the womb. Outside of the womb, the child is already formed and can live without the resources of its mother’s body.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jesus existed before HE was conceived in the womb of of Mary.
Jesus still exist and always will.
Is there anyone who will say,
"a fetus is not a person",
and spread the heresy that there was a period of nine months, that Jesus did not exist?
The scripture is saying that he was named Jesus before he was conceived in the womb. The scripture is not saying that the fetus in the womb was a person. I AM NOT SAYING THAT JESUS DID NOT EXIST. Jesus existed EVEN before he was conceived in the womb of virgin Mary.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Gen 25:
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
In the Hebrew/Aramaic it is clear that children(v.22) and people(v.23) are PERSONS
children - ben
used 4906 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS,
never as a non-person.
people - lehome
used 36 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS.
A fetus can be called a child because it is human, but it is still a fetus nonetheless.
A woman does not give birth to fetuses, she gives birth to people. I do not believe that they are people in the womb; they are living human fetuses in the womb. People can survive out of the womb.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Thus again,
the WORD of GOD says a fetus is a PERSON.
According you and your belief, but I cannot see that in the bible. I am entitled to my beliefs as you are yours.
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
What about the heart of the woman who has the desire to abort?
Can you look into the woman’s heart?
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Has the seed of sin been planted in her through an adulterous affair or fornication out of wedlock? Why would she want to get rid of her baby?
There are moral and dishonorable motives, in addtion to the abortion, that have to be dealt in making such a drastic decision. Is she in danger of eternal judgment if the sin is not uprooted?
I may be told that 'it is the woman's business what she does with her body,' and I should not condemn. Like Jesus I must not condemn, but like Jesus I can also say, "Go and sin no more." If not, this would give her the right to have as many abortions as she wants to if this sin is not recognized and uprooted.
I cannot find that abortion is a sin in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God. Everyone should be entitled to his or her own opinion, but to even attempt pass such an opinion off as God’s truth is wrong. I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it.
Posted by Good NewsforAll (Member # 6156) on
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If someone wants to risk their chance of getting into heaven, sobeit. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I rest my case.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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"I cannot find that abortion(killing kids)is a sin in the bible."
Some things are so simple that they are stupid.
You have been given page after page.
Stop your sillyness!
Posted by by_grace (Member # 5340) on
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Well, been a while since visiting and I see that once again we have a debate over something so clearly sinful as if were not.
You know, the Holy Spirit alone should be speaking to you itty bitty, or rose, or ava, or whoever you may be this day...???
You have changed your spots more times than a newborn needs change of diapers.
ANYWAY, I cannot even tell you how sad your position is, and how terrible your testimony reads on this subject.
You have received many responses, all of which you are not reading with any intent to gain insight.
I will not debate you on this however I will pray that your eyes be opened.
You have an anger in you ,much anger, I pray that the Holy Spirit will give you rest
by_grace
Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on
:
Like I said earlier, I m glad she is actually reading the Bible and finding the truth herself, rather than letting someone simply tell her.
There is no gray area in sin. Its either sin or its not sin. Time and time again, its been pointed out that a fetus is alive and shes twisting and grabbing at loop holes that dont exist. She talks out of both side of her mouth on this fact. IE, "I know its alive but its not a person". She falling into Satans trap of trying to take matters into her own hands, instead of allowing God to do it.
A couple I know were told when she became pregnant that she couldnt carry the child, the delivery would kill her. (heart condition I think) Abortion was suggested to them. They prayed about it and decided if she died it was Gods will. They placed it ALL in his hands. She just gave birth a few months ago to their 2nd child. ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
My wife became pregnant before we were married. I wasnt ready for a kid but abortion was never an option to me. (she never suggested it, she just knew I wasnt ready) I even told her, if she didnt want the baby, I would raise it and never bother her. He ll be 7 next month and we ll be married 7 yrs in May. If you dont want a kid, dont do anything to get in that situation.
Do one of 2 things, be an adult about it and raise the kid. Give it up for adoption, plenty of people are waiting for kids bc they cant have them.
I m not going to argue with you. Abortion is wrong, its killing babies. And for you to claim to be a Christian and then support this, really bothers me. Its sending the wrong message to the lost people of this world. As already mentioned, it can be forgiven but its wrong to do it and also to support it.
Posted by WildB (Member # 2917) on
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Jonah.4
[11] And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand;
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
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Oh, I really do hope that all of these comments of criticism for my pro-choice stance addressed to me are not coming from those who support the death penalty:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
If someone wants to risk their chance of getting into heaven, sobeit. I rest my case.
I hope that remark is not coming from a person who is pro-death penalty. Pro-death penalty is pro-death to me, where is the outcry and outrage over that? I am pro-life, which is why I am against the death penalty. I am pro-choice, because I believe that a woman should have the right to choose what she wishes to do with her body.
Are you saying that if I don't believe your opinion to be God's truth, then I am risking my chance of "getting into heaven"?
And why don't you have an answer for the case of Chimera? Or the case of fetal in fetu? Or the case of the fetus that would have killed both itself and the woman who carried it?
I am entitled to me beliefs, as you are yours.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
She falling into Satans trap of trying to take matters into her own hands, instead of allowing God to do it.
I hope that remark is not coming from a person who is pro-death penalty. Pro-death penalty is pro-death, where is the outcry and outrage over that? It kills people. I am pro-life, which is why I am against the death penalty. I don’t take matters into my own hands and wish for a person to be judged and put to death for their sins on earth, I would rather leave the judging up to God. I am pro-choice, because I believe that people such as women should have the right to choose what she wishes to do with her body.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
A couple I know were told when she became pregnant that she couldnt carry the child, the delivery would kill her. (heart condition I think) Abortion was suggested to them. They prayed about it and decided if she died it was Gods will.
Who decided for it to be God’s will? WHO? It was the woman’s choice not to have an abortion. She had the choice to say no, I wish for others to have the choice and decide whether or not to have an abortion. I believe that others should have the right to choose what they wish to do with their own bodies as that woman did. The idea of a person infringing on the rights of another because of their personal beliefs is just selfish to me.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
And for you to claim to be a Christian and then support this, really bothers me. Its sending the wrong message to the lost people of this world. As already mentioned, it can be forgiven but its wrong to do it and also to support it.
It is wrong to you, but the bible does not call it a sin; we are all entitled to our opinions. I can say the same thing to you about the self-righteous practice of the death penalty. I can tell you that if you support the death penalty and claim to be a Christian, then that really bothers me, right?
quote:
Originally posted by by_grace:
Well, been a while since visiting and I see that once again we have a debate over something so clearly sinful as if were not.
This is according to you and your opinion. Where is the scripture that calls abortion a sin? Why is it that all I seem to see are scriptures taken out of context to prove points?
According to you, but I do NOT see it in the bible that abortion is sin. We all are entitled to our own opinions, but when a person puts their own opinions in the bible and tries to pass them off as God’s truth then THAT IS A PROBLEM. So if it is your own opinion and judgment, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE.
quote:
Originally posted by by_grace:
You know, the Holy Spirit alone should be speaking to you itty bitty, or rose, or ava, or whoever you may be this day...???
It’s Glacialis until I change it to something else.
quote:
Originally posted by by_grace:
You have received many responses, all of which you are not reading with any intent to gain insight.
I will not debate you on this however I will pray that your eyes be opened.
Oh, I think I get it now. Once I step away from what appear to be “Christian” traditions, I am a blind fool, an idiot, and a stupid person, right? Am I stupid and blind to you for seeing no comparison of abortion to slavery? Am I stupid and blind to you for recognizing fetal cases that can kill both the fetus and woman that it is carrying? Am I stupid and blind to you for valuing the lives of people over the fetuses that are not even people? A fetus is the origin of a person, not a person.
Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on
:
Regardless of ones ability to discern truth, and regardless of whether one decides to ignore the Bibles CLEAR and concise statement regarding the LIVE babe IN THE WOMB, and regardless of whether or not one chooses to accept truth,
it stands to reason that one who claims to be Christian would know that the Word teaches confirmation.
It has been confirmed in EVERY RESPONSE that you will NOT find a single supporter of the abortionist position.
It is truly sad, when one receives OVERWHELMING confirmation that it is wrong, yet still wants to side with the abortionists. That is a sin...
Condoning abortion is the same as condoning any murder, any drug abuse, and physical or emotional abuse, achohol, rape, etc....You might as well say that there is no such thing as sin, because your position on abortion makes you an accomplice to murder. And that, in Gods eyes, will send you straight to hell if you don't repent...
Here is a clear outline of exactly what you believe is MORALLY right to do - Just like rape, murder, or anything else that defies the Word of God, the 10 commandments is clear and you are denying the confirmation God has placed before you in OVERWHELMING quantities
Be sure to read carefully so you have a CLEAR understanding of what you believe is good and right to do...
Listed below are the various abortion methods in common use today:
Suction Aspiration
Menstrual Extraction
Dilation & Curettage (D&C)
Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
Saline Abortion
Urea Abortion
Prostaglandin Abortion
Hysterotomy
Hysterctomy
Abortion Pill (RU-486)
Partial Birth Abortion (D&X)
SUCTION ASPIRATION:
This is the most common method of abortion during the first twelve weeks of a pregnancy. General or local anesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is dilated.
A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edge tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube.
The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner tears the unborn child into pieces which are sucked out through the tube into a bottle and discarded.
MENSTRUAL EXTRACTION:
Very early in a pregnancy, suction abortions are performed using a smaller tube, and the cervix does not have to be dilated so greatly. This is called a 'menstrual extraction'.
If all the pieces of the child are not removed however, infection results, requiring a full dilation of the cervix and the scraping out of the womb.
DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C):
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a loop-shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. These pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded.
This is not to be confused with a therapeutic D&C which is done for reasons other than pregnancy.
DILATION AND EVACUATION (D&E):
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the curette used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus.
The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the calcified bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the baby is totally dismembered and removed.
Sometimes the head of the child is too large and must be crushed for removal.
SALINE ABORTION:
"Salt poisoning", or the saline method, is used after the sixteenth week of pregnancy. A needle is inserted through the abdominal wall, through the uterine wall and into the amniotic sac.
Some of the amniotic fluid is removed and replaced with a concentrated salt solution. The unborn child breathes in and swallows the salt and is poisoned by it.
The mother goes into labour and a dead baby is delivered 24 to 48 hours later. This method of abortion is so dangerous to the mother that it is banned in sweden and japan.
PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION:
Prostaglandin are hormones needed for birth. Injecting them into the amniotic sac induces intense labour and the premature birth of a child usually too young to survive.
This method is generally used for abortions done during the second half of pregnancy.
Saline or urea are sometimes injected first to kill the baby before delivery and make the procedure less distressful for the mother and abortion staff.
UREA ABORTION:
Urea is injected into the pregnant uterus in the same manner as saline.
Urea is a soluble, weakly basic nitrogenous compound that is the chief solid component of mammalian urine and an end product of pretein decomposition.
Urea is synthesized from carbon dioxide and ammonia, and is commercially used in the creation of plastics, fertilizers and animal food.
HYSTEROTOMY:
Hysterotomy abortion is similar to a cesarean delivery, except that its purpose is to kill rather than save the child. This method is sometimes used when a tubal ligation is performed at the same time.
Almost all hysterotomy abortion babies are born alive. The abdomen and womb are opened surgically; the baby is lifted out and the umbilical cord is clamped.
The child often struggles before dying. Some babies have survived this procedure and are subsequently accepted by their natural mothers, or placed for adoption.
HYSTERECTOMY:
Removal of the unborn child at the same time as the removal of the uterus.
ABORTION PILL (RU-486):
The best known abortion pill is RU-486, also known as Mifepristone. It is only one of a family of chemical abortifacients which kill the developing human after fertilization.
These pills are sometimes referred to as "contagestives", "menses regulators", or "post-coital contraceptives". Chemical abortifacients are extremely potent drugs.
RU-486 is a synthetic steroid that blocks the action of the hormone progesterone, which is essential to maintaining pregnancy. Deprived of progesterone, the lining of the uterus sloughs off, killing the developing child.
In most cases the response of the mother's body is to release prostaglandin to cause a miscarriage. The "success" rate of the pill is raised by administering artificial prostaglandin several days after RU-486 is used.
RU-486 facilitates self-administered abortion, easily obtained in the earliest days of pregnancy.
Although promoted as a safe alternative to surgery, the long-term effects of the drug and others like it are as yet unknown.
PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION (D&X):
D&X stands for "Dilation and Extraction". This partial birth method of abortion is used when the fetus is 26 weeks of age or older. At this stage of development, the toughness of the fetal tissue makes the D&E method difficult.
After dilating the cervix for two days, the abortionist uses ultrasound to locate the fetus' legs. One leg is pulled into the birth canal with forceps, then the other leg and torso are delivered by hand.
The head of the fetus remains in the uterus. Using a blunt-tipped surgical scissor in a closed position, the abortionist pierces the fetus' head at the base of the skull, and then opens the scissors to enlarge the hole.
A suction catheter is inserted into the womb and the skull contents are vacuumed out. The corpse is then pulled completely from the mother's body.
Partial birth abortions are a gruesome part of the flesh trade
Your support of the flesh trade is satanic. Funny how the people who support the flesh trade see the body parts as viable, human, useful....
Posted by Favor Minded (Member # 4661) on
:
Who among abortionists can be absolutely certain that the fetus in the womb is not a person? When the fetus has its own heartbeat, its own body, brain, movements, etc., who can dogmatically know that there is no human person there?
So even from a skeptical point of view, abortion cannot be logically or rationally justified. In this view, we don’t even need to prove that the fetus is a person.
Rather, those who take the life have to prove that it is not a person. There is a burden of proof that none can and none have been able to bear.
These are the logical limits of the abortion issue. It cannot be justified logically. It cannot be justified morally. The reason it is practiced has more to do with the vacuous philosophies that have degraded society, allowing for the rise of immorality.
These are philosophies we need to be challenging. If we really do believe that human life is at stake, then may God forbid that we shut our mouths and shrink in intimidation from those who push their immorality on the rest of us - Those who have not the discernment to see the millions of murdered babies that are with Jesus right now.
We as Christians MUST shine as shining lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation - Phil 2:12-16
fe·tus /ˈfitəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fee-tuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tus·es. Embryology. (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.
Also, especially British, foetus.
Compare embryo (def. 2).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L fétus bringing forth of young, hence that which is born, offspring, young still in the womb, equiv. to fé- (v. base attested in L only in n. derivatives, as fémina woman, fécundus fecund, etc.; cf. Gk thésthai to **** , milk, OHG tāan to **** , OIr denid (he) sucks) + -tus suffix of v. action]
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
it stands to reason that one who claims to be Christian would know that the Word teaches confirmation.
It has been confirmed in EVERY RESPONSE that you will NOT find a single supporter of the abortionist position.
It is truly sad, when one receives OVERWHELMING confirmation that it is wrong, yet still wants to side with the abortionists. That is a sin...
Condoning abortion is the same as condoning any murder, any drug abuse, and physical or emotional abuse, achohol, rape, etc....You might as well say that there is no such thing as sin, because your position on abortion makes you an accomplice to murder. And that, in Gods eyes, will send you straight to hell if you don't repent...
Since when did God’s eyes become your eyes? Now it seems that you are determining what is a sin and what is not one. It may be wrong to you, but the bible does not call it a sin; we are all entitled to our opinions. We all are entitled to our own opinions, but when a person puts their own opinions in the bible and tries to pass them off as biblical truth as the “Christian” traditionalists did, then THAT IS A PROBLEM. So if it is your own opinion and judgment, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE.
You know, I can say the same thing to you about the self-righteous practice of the death penalty, with biblical evidence that putting someone to else death for their sin is a self-righteous act. I can tell you that if you support the death penalty and claim to be a Christian, then your position makes you an accomplice to murder, right?
I can say that “supporting the death penalty” is the same as “condoning any murder, any drug abuse, and physical or emotional abuse, alcohol, rape, etc....You might as well say that there is no such thing as sin”, because your position on the death penalty makes you an accomplice to murder, right?
“And that, in Gods eyes, will send you straight to hell if you don't repent...” that is according to your own standards and judgment, right?
How can a “pro-lifer” support the death penalty?
You know, I am curious, how many of you “pro-lifers” support the death penalty?
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
Who among abortionists can be absolutely certain that the fetus in the womb is not a person? When the fetus has its own heartbeat, its own body, brain, movements, etc., who can dogmatically know that there is no human person there?
A fetus in fetu grows and is human, it is alive and some have brains and limbs like a person, it has its own body, but it is not a person, it can only survive off of the resources of another. It is an unusual condition in which a vertebrate fetus is enclosed within the abdomen of a normally developing fetus. A case of parasitic twin.
“Fetus in fetu (or Fœtus in fœtu) is a rare condition where a fetus grows within its twin. The fetus then acts as a parasite and survives, depending on the survival of its host, by fusing itself to its twins blood stream. The growth and survival of the parasite fetus becomes lethal to the host at a later time.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
“A baby born with a fetus inside it ‘occurs in only one in every 500,000 live births,’ said Maria Angelica Belmar, head of the hospital's neonatal wing.”
“The dominant fetus grows, while the fetus that would have been its twin lives on throughout the pregnancy, feeding off its host twin like a kind of parasite. Usually, both twins die before birth from the strain of sharing a placenta. Sometimes, however, the host twin survives and is delivered.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
What about the case of an acardiac twin? “An acardiac twin, also called the TRAP sequence, is a parasitic twin that fails to develop a head, arms and a heart. The resulting torso survives by leeching blood flow from the surviving normal twin by means of an umbilical cord-like structure, much like a fetus in fetu, except the acardiac twin is not enveloped inside the normal twin's body.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
“Because it is pumping blood for both itself and its acardiac twin, this causes extreme stress on the normal fetus's heart. This twinning condition usually occurs very early in pregnancy.
Without intervention, the normal fetus is only expected to have a 20% or less chance of survival.”
And don’t forget about the other parasitic fetal cases, in where a parasitic twin is attached to the normally developed twin and has a brain but is “defined as parasitic, rather than conjoined, because it is incompletely formed or wholly dependent on the body functions of the complete fetus.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
How do you explain that? Since you seem to insist that fetuses are really people, then the person who kills the parasitic twin would be a murderer, right? I am more interested in saving the life of a person. There are parasitic twins attached to infants too, are the people who remove them murderers? A fetus is a person, right?
The case of the parasitic twin is the case in which a fetus was killing its normally developing fetal twin, and if left attached would kill both the fetus and its twin.
What about the fetal cases in which the fetus was killing its mother and if left inside would kill the both fetus and its mother?
I wonder why I haven’t heard pro-lifers mention these types of fetal cases. It seems that no one here has addressed these fetal cases. Why not? There they are, this is reality.
And why doesn't anyone here seem to have an explanation for Chimerism?
Posted by Thunderz7 (Member # 31) on
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Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on
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There are none so blind, as those who would not see....
Posted by Kindgo (Member # 2) on
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chimerism
presence of cells from two different individuals.
Posted by David (Member # 1) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Itty-Bitty Girl,
That is quite enough from you about wanting to kill babies. We do not support abortion on this message board. Nor promote it like you are doing. Drop the promotion of abortion or I will have to ban you from this message board. You should know better.
David
Posted by TB125 (Member # 2450) on
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Itty-Bitty Girl,
I encourage you to really examine the logic of your arguments that you seek to use to justify abortions.
In your last message, you cited several examples regarding the development of some very abnormal twins in a woman's womb. You apparently expect us to recognize that the medical treatment of these very abnormal conditions or the associated dangers to the "persons" involved in these circumstances justifies any woman's right to abort any normal fetus or person in her womb whenever she decides that she no longer wants it there or it presents a physical threat to her health and well-being. This is nonsense and absolutely illogical.
You as well as other individuals supporting your position for "pro-choice" don't seem to recognize that, except for incidents of rape or incest, thoughtful and informed women today have numerous ways to avoid getting pregnant if they don't want another person in their womb. Abortion as a means of birth control for any woman who wants to choose how she uses her body is an illogical option for an "unwanted" pregnancy. Participating in "unprotected" sex is not a wise choice for any woman who doesn't want to face the possibility of getting pregnant.
You have an opportunity as you consider the messages in this thread to do some serious and critical rethinking of your position. Many of us would be glad to see you doing that. I hope that you understand my points.
Posted by shadowmaker (Member # 3696) on
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quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Itty-Bitty Girl,
I encourage you to really examine the logic of your arguments that you seek to use to justify abortions.
You as well as other individuals supporting your position for "pro-choice" don't seem to recognize that, except for incidents of rape or incest, thoughtful and informed women today have numerous ways to avoid getting pregnant if they don't want another person in their womb. Abortion as a means of birth control for any woman who wants to choose how she uses her body is an illogical option for an "unwanted" pregnancy. Participating in "unprotected" sex is not a wise choice for any woman who doesn't want to face the possibility of getting pregnant.
You have an opportunity as you consider the messages in this thread to do some serious and critical rethinking of your position. Many of us would be glad to see you doing that. I hope that you understand my points.
AMEN!!!!!!!
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Ok, David; I won't talk about my stance on abortion anymore here. And for the record: I don't want to kill babies, I love babies and children.
Now I want to know if it is okay for you to promote the death penalty here.
Is it okay for you to support the death penalty on this message board? That is all that I ask, now.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Yes one can support the death penalty on this message board, as I support it and it is bibical.
But that is for guilty people not innocent babies.
.
.
[ December 22, 2006, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: David ]
Posted by Itty-Bitty Girl (Member # 4579) on
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Alright, that is all I needed to know from you. Thanks, David, your stance on that act is very interesting.
Posted by artm (Member # 6243) on
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Wow,This is quite a subject here.
Abortion,Is it Murder,or is it the right of a Woman to choose ?
For anyone to say that the taking of the life of a Living Infant is not Murder,But the Right of the woman, Is beyond anything I have ever heard.
When the Word of God is perverted to the degree it is concerning Abortion,As it has been here, I understand even more the sad and dangerous condition of what calls itself the church.
The Law of Man has been placed above the Law of God. for many within the church,If the World says it's ok,Then it is ok with them.
To say that Gods Law against Murder does not apply to the Murder of an unborn child, Has got to be deception of the highest order.
I cannot fathom how one who,Even knows the very Basics of the Bible can even believe such a thing.
But I blame the Preachers and Pastors, Who are supposed to be Declaring the Truth of the Word of God.
Somewhere we have failed to Preach the Truth of Gods Word,And now we see the results.
I am being harsh on purpose. Those with such belief's would never remain in a Church where the True Word of God is being declared.
This is a very serious matter. Millions of unborn babies are being murdered every year in the United States, And the Church debates wreather it is wrong or not.
God help us.
Herod had many Babies killed hoping to kill Jesus. satan is killing millions of Babies today, And for many it is no big thing.
To say that " I am against abortion " And at the same time say, " I agree with a woman's right to kill her Baby " Is something that is hard for me to understand.
God help us.
Hitler was the Dictator of Germany, Did he have the right to kill millions of Jews ?
God Forbid.
Police have authority in our streets, Do they have the right to just shoot anyone they choose ?
God Forbid.
Neither does a Woman have the God given right to kill that Precious Child in her womb.
If that Woman, Doctor,Nurse or Husband do not Repent and receive Gods Forgivness, They will give account for the murder of that Child.
And for those who would support and vote for those who are pro-abortion, They had better sit down,Get their Bible, And ask God to show them the truth concerning this matter.
Because, One day we will all stand before a Holy God.
Well,I have jumped in with both feet, And I hope all will take a better look at Abortion.
And, " WILL THE REAL CHURCH PLEASE STAND UP .
God Bless. Pastor Mann
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