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Author
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Topic: Where in the world did Rick Warren get so far off track?
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artm
Advanced Member
Member # 6243
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posted
Wow,This is quite a subject here.
Abortion,Is it Murder,or is it the right of a Woman to choose ?
For anyone to say that the taking of the life of a Living Infant is not Murder,But the Right of the woman, Is beyond anything I have ever heard.
When the Word of God is perverted to the degree it is concerning Abortion,As it has been here, I understand even more the sad and dangerous condition of what calls itself the church.
The Law of Man has been placed above the Law of God. for many within the church,If the World says it's ok,Then it is ok with them.
To say that Gods Law against Murder does not apply to the Murder of an unborn child, Has got to be deception of the highest order.
I cannot fathom how one who,Even knows the very Basics of the Bible can even believe such a thing.
But I blame the Preachers and Pastors, Who are supposed to be Declaring the Truth of the Word of God.
Somewhere we have failed to Preach the Truth of Gods Word,And now we see the results.
I am being harsh on purpose. Those with such belief's would never remain in a Church where the True Word of God is being declared.
This is a very serious matter. Millions of unborn babies are being murdered every year in the United States, And the Church debates wreather it is wrong or not.
God help us.
Herod had many Babies killed hoping to kill Jesus. satan is killing millions of Babies today, And for many it is no big thing.
To say that " I am against abortion " And at the same time say, " I agree with a woman's right to kill her Baby " Is something that is hard for me to understand.
God help us.
Hitler was the Dictator of Germany, Did he have the right to kill millions of Jews ?
God Forbid.
Police have authority in our streets, Do they have the right to just shoot anyone they choose ?
God Forbid.
Neither does a Woman have the God given right to kill that Precious Child in her womb.
If that Woman, Doctor,Nurse or Husband do not Repent and receive Gods Forgivness, They will give account for the murder of that Child.
And for those who would support and vote for those who are pro-abortion, They had better sit down,Get their Bible, And ask God to show them the truth concerning this matter.
Because, One day we will all stand before a Holy God.
Well,I have jumped in with both feet, And I hope all will take a better look at Abortion.
And, " WILL THE REAL CHURCH PLEASE STAND UP .
God Bless. Pastor Mann
Posts: 50 | From: New York | Registered: Dec 2006
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
Alright, that is all I needed to know from you. Thanks, David, your stance on that act is very interesting.
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Ok, David; I won't talk about my stance on abortion anymore here. And for the record: I don't want to kill babies, I love babies and children.
Now I want to know if it is okay for you to promote the death penalty here.
Is it okay for you to support the death penalty on this message board? That is all that I ask, now.
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Yes one can support the death penalty on this message board, as I support it and it is bibical.
But that is for guilty people not innocent babies.
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[ December 22, 2006, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: David ]
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TB125:
Itty-Bitty Girl,
I encourage you to really examine the logic of your arguments that you seek to use to justify abortions.
You as well as other individuals supporting your position for "pro-choice" don't seem to recognize that, except for incidents of rape or incest, thoughtful and informed women today have numerous ways to avoid getting pregnant if they don't want another person in their womb. Abortion as a means of birth control for any woman who wants to choose how she uses her body is an illogical option for an "unwanted" pregnancy. Participating in "unprotected" sex is not a wise choice for any woman who doesn't want to face the possibility of getting pregnant.
You have an opportunity as you consider the messages in this thread to do some serious and critical rethinking of your position. Many of us would be glad to see you doing that. I hope that you understand my points.
AMEN!!!!!!! ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
Itty-Bitty Girl,
I encourage you to really examine the logic of your arguments that you seek to use to justify abortions.
In your last message, you cited several examples regarding the development of some very abnormal twins in a woman's womb. You apparently expect us to recognize that the medical treatment of these very abnormal conditions or the associated dangers to the "persons" involved in these circumstances justifies any woman's right to abort any normal fetus or person in her womb whenever she decides that she no longer wants it there or it presents a physical threat to her health and well-being. This is nonsense and absolutely illogical.
You as well as other individuals supporting your position for "pro-choice" don't seem to recognize that, except for incidents of rape or incest, thoughtful and informed women today have numerous ways to avoid getting pregnant if they don't want another person in their womb. Abortion as a means of birth control for any woman who wants to choose how she uses her body is an illogical option for an "unwanted" pregnancy. Participating in "unprotected" sex is not a wise choice for any woman who doesn't want to face the possibility of getting pregnant.
You have an opportunity as you consider the messages in this thread to do some serious and critical rethinking of your position. Many of us would be glad to see you doing that. I hope that you understand my points.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Itty-Bitty Girl,
That is quite enough from you about wanting to kill babies. We do not support abortion on this message board. Nor promote it like you are doing. Drop the promotion of abortion or I will have to ban you from this message board. You should know better.
David
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
chimerism
presence of cells from two different individuals.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
There are none so blind, as those who would not see.... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
it stands to reason that one who claims to be Christian would know that the Word teaches confirmation.
It has been confirmed in EVERY RESPONSE that you will NOT find a single supporter of the abortionist position.
It is truly sad, when one receives OVERWHELMING confirmation that it is wrong, yet still wants to side with the abortionists. That is a sin...
Condoning abortion is the same as condoning any murder, any drug abuse, and physical or emotional abuse, achohol, rape, etc....You might as well say that there is no such thing as sin, because your position on abortion makes you an accomplice to murder. And that, in Gods eyes, will send you straight to hell if you don't repent...
Since when did God’s eyes become your eyes? Now it seems that you are determining what is a sin and what is not one. It may be wrong to you, but the bible does not call it a sin; we are all entitled to our opinions. We all are entitled to our own opinions, but when a person puts their own opinions in the bible and tries to pass them off as biblical truth as the “Christian” traditionalists did, then THAT IS A PROBLEM. So if it is your own opinion and judgment, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE.
You know, I can say the same thing to you about the self-righteous practice of the death penalty, with biblical evidence that putting someone to else death for their sin is a self-righteous act. I can tell you that if you support the death penalty and claim to be a Christian, then your position makes you an accomplice to murder, right?
I can say that “supporting the death penalty” is the same as “condoning any murder, any drug abuse, and physical or emotional abuse, alcohol, rape, etc....You might as well say that there is no such thing as sin”, because your position on the death penalty makes you an accomplice to murder, right?
“And that, in Gods eyes, will send you straight to hell if you don't repent...” that is according to your own standards and judgment, right?
How can a “pro-lifer” support the death penalty?
You know, I am curious, how many of you “pro-lifers” support the death penalty?
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
Who among abortionists can be absolutely certain that the fetus in the womb is not a person? When the fetus has its own heartbeat, its own body, brain, movements, etc., who can dogmatically know that there is no human person there?
A fetus in fetu grows and is human, it is alive and some have brains and limbs like a person, it has its own body, but it is not a person, it can only survive off of the resources of another. It is an unusual condition in which a vertebrate fetus is enclosed within the abdomen of a normally developing fetus. A case of parasitic twin.
“Fetus in fetu (or Fœtus in fœtu) is a rare condition where a fetus grows within its twin. The fetus then acts as a parasite and survives, depending on the survival of its host, by fusing itself to its twins blood stream. The growth and survival of the parasite fetus becomes lethal to the host at a later time.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
“A baby born with a fetus inside it ‘occurs in only one in every 500,000 live births,’ said Maria Angelica Belmar, head of the hospital's neonatal wing.”
“The dominant fetus grows, while the fetus that would have been its twin lives on throughout the pregnancy, feeding off its host twin like a kind of parasite. Usually, both twins die before birth from the strain of sharing a placenta. Sometimes, however, the host twin survives and is delivered.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
What about the case of an acardiac twin? “An acardiac twin, also called the TRAP sequence, is a parasitic twin that fails to develop a head, arms and a heart. The resulting torso survives by leeching blood flow from the surviving normal twin by means of an umbilical cord-like structure, much like a fetus in fetu, except the acardiac twin is not enveloped inside the normal twin's body.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
“Because it is pumping blood for both itself and its acardiac twin, this causes extreme stress on the normal fetus's heart. This twinning condition usually occurs very early in pregnancy.
Without intervention, the normal fetus is only expected to have a 20% or less chance of survival.”
And don’t forget about the other parasitic fetal cases, in where a parasitic twin is attached to the normally developed twin and has a brain but is “defined as parasitic, rather than conjoined, because it is incompletely formed or wholly dependent on the body functions of the complete fetus.” That’s reality. Source cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_twin
How do you explain that? Since you seem to insist that fetuses are really people, then the person who kills the parasitic twin would be a murderer, right? I am more interested in saving the life of a person. There are parasitic twins attached to infants too, are the people who remove them murderers? A fetus is a person, right?
The case of the parasitic twin is the case in which a fetus was killing its normally developing fetal twin, and if left attached would kill both the fetus and its twin.
What about the fetal cases in which the fetus was killing its mother and if left inside would kill the both fetus and its mother?
I wonder why I haven’t heard pro-lifers mention these types of fetal cases. It seems that no one here has addressed these fetal cases. Why not? There they are, this is reality.
And why doesn't anyone here seem to have an explanation for Chimerism?
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Favor Minded
Advanced Member
Member # 4661
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posted
Who among abortionists can be absolutely certain that the fetus in the womb is not a person? When the fetus has its own heartbeat, its own body, brain, movements, etc., who can dogmatically know that there is no human person there?
So even from a skeptical point of view, abortion cannot be logically or rationally justified. In this view, we don’t even need to prove that the fetus is a person.
Rather, those who take the life have to prove that it is not a person. There is a burden of proof that none can and none have been able to bear.
These are the logical limits of the abortion issue. It cannot be justified logically. It cannot be justified morally. The reason it is practiced has more to do with the vacuous philosophies that have degraded society, allowing for the rise of immorality.
These are philosophies we need to be challenging. If we really do believe that human life is at stake, then may God forbid that we shut our mouths and shrink in intimidation from those who push their immorality on the rest of us - Those who have not the discernment to see the millions of murdered babies that are with Jesus right now.
We as Christians MUST shine as shining lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation - Phil 2:12-16
fe·tus /ˈfitəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fee-tuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -tus·es. Embryology. (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.
Also, especially British, foetus.
Compare embryo (def. 2).
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[Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L fétus bringing forth of young, hence that which is born, offspring, young still in the womb, equiv. to fé- (v. base attested in L only in n. derivatives, as fémina woman, fécundus fecund, etc.; cf. Gk thésthai to **** , milk, OHG tāan to **** , OIr denid (he) sucks) + -tus suffix of v. action]
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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Favor Minded
Advanced Member
Member # 4661
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posted
Regardless of ones ability to discern truth, and regardless of whether one decides to ignore the Bibles CLEAR and concise statement regarding the LIVE babe IN THE WOMB, and regardless of whether or not one chooses to accept truth,
it stands to reason that one who claims to be Christian would know that the Word teaches confirmation.
It has been confirmed in EVERY RESPONSE that you will NOT find a single supporter of the abortionist position.
It is truly sad, when one receives OVERWHELMING confirmation that it is wrong, yet still wants to side with the abortionists. That is a sin...
Condoning abortion is the same as condoning any murder, any drug abuse, and physical or emotional abuse, achohol, rape, etc....You might as well say that there is no such thing as sin, because your position on abortion makes you an accomplice to murder. And that, in Gods eyes, will send you straight to hell if you don't repent...
Here is a clear outline of exactly what you believe is MORALLY right to do - Just like rape, murder, or anything else that defies the Word of God, the 10 commandments is clear and you are denying the confirmation God has placed before you in OVERWHELMING quantities
Be sure to read carefully so you have a CLEAR understanding of what you believe is good and right to do...
Listed below are the various abortion methods in common use today:
Suction Aspiration
Menstrual Extraction
Dilation & Curettage (D&C)
Dilation and Evacuation (D&E)
Saline Abortion
Urea Abortion
Prostaglandin Abortion
Hysterotomy
Hysterctomy
Abortion Pill (RU-486)
Partial Birth Abortion (D&X)
SUCTION ASPIRATION:
This is the most common method of abortion during the first twelve weeks of a pregnancy. General or local anesthesia is given to the mother and her cervix is dilated.
A suction curette (hollow tube with a knife-edge tip) is inserted into the womb. This instrument is then connected to a vacuum machine by a transparent tube.
The vacuum suction, 29 times more powerful than a household vacuum cleaner tears the unborn child into pieces which are sucked out through the tube into a bottle and discarded.
MENSTRUAL EXTRACTION:
Very early in a pregnancy, suction abortions are performed using a smaller tube, and the cervix does not have to be dilated so greatly. This is called a 'menstrual extraction'.
If all the pieces of the child are not removed however, infection results, requiring a full dilation of the cervix and the scraping out of the womb.
DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C):
This method is similar to the suction method with the added insertion of a loop-shaped knife (curette) which cuts the baby into pieces. These pieces are scraped out through the cervix and discarded.
This is not to be confused with a therapeutic D&C which is done for reasons other than pregnancy.
DILATION AND EVACUATION (D&E):
This method is used up to 18 weeks' gestation. Instead of the curette used in D&C abortions, a pair of forceps is inserted into the womb to grasp part of the fetus.
The teeth of the forceps twist and tear the calcified bones of the unborn child. This process is repeated until the baby is totally dismembered and removed.
Sometimes the head of the child is too large and must be crushed for removal.
SALINE ABORTION:
"Salt poisoning", or the saline method, is used after the sixteenth week of pregnancy. A needle is inserted through the abdominal wall, through the uterine wall and into the amniotic sac.
Some of the amniotic fluid is removed and replaced with a concentrated salt solution. The unborn child breathes in and swallows the salt and is poisoned by it.
The mother goes into labour and a dead baby is delivered 24 to 48 hours later. This method of abortion is so dangerous to the mother that it is banned in sweden and japan.
PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION:
Prostaglandin are hormones needed for birth. Injecting them into the amniotic sac induces intense labour and the premature birth of a child usually too young to survive.
This method is generally used for abortions done during the second half of pregnancy.
Saline or urea are sometimes injected first to kill the baby before delivery and make the procedure less distressful for the mother and abortion staff.
UREA ABORTION:
Urea is injected into the pregnant uterus in the same manner as saline.
Urea is a soluble, weakly basic nitrogenous compound that is the chief solid component of mammalian urine and an end product of pretein decomposition.
Urea is synthesized from carbon dioxide and ammonia, and is commercially used in the creation of plastics, fertilizers and animal food.
HYSTEROTOMY:
Hysterotomy abortion is similar to a cesarean delivery, except that its purpose is to kill rather than save the child. This method is sometimes used when a tubal ligation is performed at the same time.
Almost all hysterotomy abortion babies are born alive. The abdomen and womb are opened surgically; the baby is lifted out and the umbilical cord is clamped.
The child often struggles before dying. Some babies have survived this procedure and are subsequently accepted by their natural mothers, or placed for adoption.
HYSTERECTOMY:
Removal of the unborn child at the same time as the removal of the uterus.
ABORTION PILL (RU-486):
The best known abortion pill is RU-486, also known as Mifepristone. It is only one of a family of chemical abortifacients which kill the developing human after fertilization.
These pills are sometimes referred to as "contagestives", "menses regulators", or "post-coital contraceptives". Chemical abortifacients are extremely potent drugs.
RU-486 is a synthetic steroid that blocks the action of the hormone progesterone, which is essential to maintaining pregnancy. Deprived of progesterone, the lining of the uterus sloughs off, killing the developing child.
In most cases the response of the mother's body is to release prostaglandin to cause a miscarriage. The "success" rate of the pill is raised by administering artificial prostaglandin several days after RU-486 is used.
RU-486 facilitates self-administered abortion, easily obtained in the earliest days of pregnancy.
Although promoted as a safe alternative to surgery, the long-term effects of the drug and others like it are as yet unknown.
PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION (D&X):
D&X stands for "Dilation and Extraction". This partial birth method of abortion is used when the fetus is 26 weeks of age or older. At this stage of development, the toughness of the fetal tissue makes the D&E method difficult.
After dilating the cervix for two days, the abortionist uses ultrasound to locate the fetus' legs. One leg is pulled into the birth canal with forceps, then the other leg and torso are delivered by hand.
The head of the fetus remains in the uterus. Using a blunt-tipped surgical scissor in a closed position, the abortionist pierces the fetus' head at the base of the skull, and then opens the scissors to enlarge the hole.
A suction catheter is inserted into the womb and the skull contents are vacuumed out. The corpse is then pulled completely from the mother's body.
Partial birth abortions are a gruesome part of the flesh trade
Your support of the flesh trade is satanic. Funny how the people who support the flesh trade see the body parts as viable, human, useful....
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
Oh, I really do hope that all of these comments of criticism for my pro-choice stance addressed to me are not coming from those who support the death penalty:
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
If someone wants to risk their chance of getting into heaven, sobeit. I rest my case.
I hope that remark is not coming from a person who is pro-death penalty. Pro-death penalty is pro-death to me, where is the outcry and outrage over that? I am pro-life, which is why I am against the death penalty. I am pro-choice, because I believe that a woman should have the right to choose what she wishes to do with her body.
Are you saying that if I don't believe your opinion to be God's truth, then I am risking my chance of "getting into heaven"?
And why don't you have an answer for the case of Chimera? Or the case of fetal in fetu? Or the case of the fetus that would have killed both itself and the woman who carried it?
I am entitled to me beliefs, as you are yours.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
She falling into Satans trap of trying to take matters into her own hands, instead of allowing God to do it.
I hope that remark is not coming from a person who is pro-death penalty. Pro-death penalty is pro-death, where is the outcry and outrage over that? It kills people. I am pro-life, which is why I am against the death penalty. I don’t take matters into my own hands and wish for a person to be judged and put to death for their sins on earth, I would rather leave the judging up to God. I am pro-choice, because I believe that people such as women should have the right to choose what she wishes to do with her body.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
A couple I know were told when she became pregnant that she couldnt carry the child, the delivery would kill her. (heart condition I think) Abortion was suggested to them. They prayed about it and decided if she died it was Gods will.
Who decided for it to be God’s will? WHO? It was the woman’s choice not to have an abortion. She had the choice to say no, I wish for others to have the choice and decide whether or not to have an abortion. I believe that others should have the right to choose what they wish to do with their own bodies as that woman did. The idea of a person infringing on the rights of another because of their personal beliefs is just selfish to me.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
And for you to claim to be a Christian and then support this, really bothers me. Its sending the wrong message to the lost people of this world. As already mentioned, it can be forgiven but its wrong to do it and also to support it.
It is wrong to you, but the bible does not call it a sin; we are all entitled to our opinions. I can say the same thing to you about the self-righteous practice of the death penalty. I can tell you that if you support the death penalty and claim to be a Christian, then that really bothers me, right?
quote:
Originally posted by by_grace:
Well, been a while since visiting and I see that once again we have a debate over something so clearly sinful as if were not.
This is according to you and your opinion. Where is the scripture that calls abortion a sin? Why is it that all I seem to see are scriptures taken out of context to prove points?
According to you, but I do NOT see it in the bible that abortion is sin. We all are entitled to our own opinions, but when a person puts their own opinions in the bible and tries to pass them off as God’s truth then THAT IS A PROBLEM. So if it is your own opinion and judgment, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE.
quote:
Originally posted by by_grace:
You know, the Holy Spirit alone should be speaking to you itty bitty, or rose, or ava, or whoever you may be this day...???
It’s Glacialis until I change it to something else.
quote:
Originally posted by by_grace:
You have received many responses, all of which you are not reading with any intent to gain insight.
I will not debate you on this however I will pray that your eyes be opened.
Oh, I think I get it now. Once I step away from what appear to be “Christian” traditions, I am a blind fool, an idiot, and a stupid person, right? Am I stupid and blind to you for seeing no comparison of abortion to slavery? Am I stupid and blind to you for recognizing fetal cases that can kill both the fetus and woman that it is carrying? Am I stupid and blind to you for valuing the lives of people over the fetuses that are not even people? A fetus is the origin of a person, not a person.
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Jonah.4
[11] And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand;
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
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posted
Like I said earlier, I m glad she is actually reading the Bible and finding the truth herself, rather than letting someone simply tell her.
There is no gray area in sin. Its either sin or its not sin. Time and time again, its been pointed out that a fetus is alive and shes twisting and grabbing at loop holes that dont exist. She talks out of both side of her mouth on this fact. IE, "I know its alive but its not a person". ![[Confused]](confused.gif) She falling into Satans trap of trying to take matters into her own hands, instead of allowing God to do it.
A couple I know were told when she became pregnant that she couldnt carry the child, the delivery would kill her. (heart condition I think) Abortion was suggested to them. They prayed about it and decided if she died it was Gods will. They placed it ALL in his hands. She just gave birth a few months ago to their 2nd child.
My wife became pregnant before we were married. I wasnt ready for a kid but abortion was never an option to me. (she never suggested it, she just knew I wasnt ready) I even told her, if she didnt want the baby, I would raise it and never bother her. He ll be 7 next month and we ll be married 7 yrs in May. If you dont want a kid, dont do anything to get in that situation.
Do one of 2 things, be an adult about it and raise the kid. Give it up for adoption, plenty of people are waiting for kids bc they cant have them.
I m not going to argue with you. Abortion is wrong, its killing babies. And for you to claim to be a Christian and then support this, really bothers me. Its sending the wrong message to the lost people of this world. As already mentioned, it can be forgiven but its wrong to do it and also to support it.
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by_grace
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Member # 5340
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posted
Well, been a while since visiting and I see that once again we have a debate over something so clearly sinful as if were not.
You know, the Holy Spirit alone should be speaking to you itty bitty, or rose, or ava, or whoever you may be this day...???
You have changed your spots more times than a newborn needs change of diapers.
ANYWAY, I cannot even tell you how sad your position is, and how terrible your testimony reads on this subject.
You have received many responses, all of which you are not reading with any intent to gain insight.
I will not debate you on this however I will pray that your eyes be opened.
You have an anger in you ,much anger, I pray that the Holy Spirit will give you rest
by_grace
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To "love thy neighbor as thyself" is not expressed by forfeiting, twisting or reinterpreting the Word of God for the cause of unity. It is expressed by hearing, obeying and proclaiming the whole council of God regardless of whom it might offend.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Dec 2005
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
"I cannot find that abortion(killing kids)is a sin in the bible."
Some things are so simple that they are stupid.
You have been given page after page.
Stop your sillyness!
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156
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posted
If someone wants to risk their chance of getting into heaven, sobeit. I rest my case.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
What about the heart of the woman who has the desire to abort?
Can you look into the woman’s heart?
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Has the seed of sin been planted in her through an adulterous affair or fornication out of wedlock? Why would she want to get rid of her baby?
There are moral and dishonorable motives, in addtion to the abortion, that have to be dealt in making such a drastic decision. Is she in danger of eternal judgment if the sin is not uprooted?
I may be told that 'it is the woman's business what she does with her body,' and I should not condemn. Like Jesus I must not condemn, but like Jesus I can also say, "Go and sin no more." If not, this would give her the right to have as many abortions as she wants to if this sin is not recognized and uprooted.
I cannot find that abortion is a sin in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God. Everyone should be entitled to his or her own opinion, but to even attempt pass such an opinion off as God’s truth is wrong. I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
From the Greek
babe = brephos
used 8 times in the KJV
babe 5, child 1, infant 1, young child 1;
The WORD says John Baptist was a "babe", a child, an infant, a young child in the womb of Ellizabeth, when he leaped at the salutation of Mary.
As I have said before and NOW say AGAIN: a fetus can be called a babe.
I have said that a fetus is not a person because that is what I believe; a human fetus is human, but it is not yet a person. I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person. It can be called a babe or even a child because it is human, but it is still a fetus nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
YHWH knew the PERSON Jeremiah, before he was a fetus in the belly of his mother.
YHWH sanctified the PERSON Jeremiah, while he was a fetus in the womb of his mother.
YHWH ordained the PERSON Jeremiah, to be a prophet unto the nations.
It is clear from the WORD of GOD that Jeremiah was a PERSON that GOD knew -
before he was a fetus,
WHILE he was a fetus,
after he was a fetus.
The scripture is saying that he knew Jeremiah even before he was born; he was predestined. The scripture is not saying that the fetus in the womb was a person.
A woman does not give birth to fetuses, she gives birth to people. I do not believe that they are people in the womb; they are living human fetuses in the womb.
I believe that fetuses are not people, but they are simply the origins of people. In the womb, a human is developing, being formed, being “knit” together, or being made into a person. They are not being formed into people outside the womb, but on the inside of the womb. Outside of the womb, the child is already formed and can live without the resources of its mother’s body.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jesus existed before HE was conceived in the womb of of Mary.
Jesus still exist and always will.
Is there anyone who will say,
"a fetus is not a person",
and spread the heresy that there was a period of nine months, that Jesus did not exist?
The scripture is saying that he was named Jesus before he was conceived in the womb. The scripture is not saying that the fetus in the womb was a person. I AM NOT SAYING THAT JESUS DID NOT EXIST. Jesus existed EVEN before he was conceived in the womb of virgin Mary.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Gen 25:
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
In the Hebrew/Aramaic it is clear that children(v.22) and people(v.23) are PERSONS
children - ben
used 4906 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS,
never as a non-person.
people - lehome
used 36 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS.
A fetus can be called a child because it is human, but it is still a fetus nonetheless.
A woman does not give birth to fetuses, she gives birth to people. I do not believe that they are people in the womb; they are living human fetuses in the womb. People can survive out of the womb.
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
Thus again,
the WORD of GOD says a fetus is a PERSON.
According you and your belief, but I cannot see that in the bible. I am entitled to my beliefs as you are yours.
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Good NewsforAll
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Member # 6156
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posted
What about the heart of the woman who has the desire to abort? Has the seed of sin been planted in her through an adulterous affair or fornication out of wedlock? Why would she want to get rid of her baby?
There are moral and dishonorable motives, in addtion to the abortion, that have to be dealt in making such a drastic decision. Is she in danger of eternal judgment if the sin is not uprooted?
I may be told that 'it is the woman's business what she does with her body,' and I should not condemn. Like Jesus I must not condemn, but like Jesus I can also say, "Go and sin no more." If not, this would give her the right to have as many abortions as she wants to if this sin is not recognized and uprooted.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
From the Greek
babe = brephos
used 8 times in the KJV
babe 5, child 1, infant 1, young child 1;
The WORD says John Baptist was a "babe", a child, an infant, a young child in the womb of Ellizabeth, when he leaped at the salutation of Mary.
The WORD clearly says the fetus in Elizabeth WAS A PERSON.
Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
YHWH knew the PERSON Jeremiah, before he was a fetus in the belly of his mother.
YHWH sanctified the PERSON Jeremiah, while he was a fetus in the womb of his mother.
YHWH ordained the PERSON Jeremiah, to be a prophet unto the nations.
It is clear from the WORD of GOD that Jeremiah was a PERSON that GOD knew -
before he was a fetus,
WHILE he was a fetus,
after he was a fetus.
Luke 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jesus existed before HE was conceived in the womb of of Mary.
Jesus still exist and always will.
Is there anyone who will say,
"a fetus is not a person",
and spread the heresy that there was a period of nine months, that Jesus did not exist?
Gen 25:
22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
In the Hebrew/Aramaic it is clear that children(v.22) and people(v.23) are PERSONS
children - ben
used 4906 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS,
never as a non-person.
people - lehome
used 36 times in the KJV,
all as PERSONS.
Thus again,
the WORD of GOD says a fetus is a PERSON.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Just take a serious look at what you are saying. You say "I have no doubt that the fetus is alive," so according to you, it is an alive nothing because it is inside of a woman but not outside of her?
Then you say,"The fetus is IN the woman's body,", so it is not her body we are talking about, but what is inside. We see from this that she is not deciding what to do with HER body, but the tiny defenceless body that is inside of her.
It should be the woman's choice to make that decision, not mine. A fetus is not a person, a woman is a person. The woman's body, the woman's choice; that is just how I feel.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Where does God fit into this picture? As Christians, our every decision should come from Him. He is our only source in the time of trouble.
I believe that my decision to not interfere with a person's rights comes from God, because I would not like to have my own rights infringed upon, so I do not wish to infringe on the rights of another. I must love others as I love myself.
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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless that is my understanding of it. If the fetus were a born person, then it would not be the woman’s choice.
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.
Just take a serious look at what you are saying. You say "I have no doubt that the fetus is alive," so according to you, it is an alive nothing because it is inside of a woman but not outside of her?
Then you say,"The fetus is IN the woman's body,", so it is not her body we are talking about, but what is inside. We see from this that she is not deciding what to do with HER body, but the tiny defenceless body that is inside of her.
quote:
I don't like the idea of some other person telling another person what to do with their own body, it just is an infringement of the rights of another and that is just wrong to me.
Where does God fit into this picture? As Christians, our every decision should come from Him. He is our only source in the time of trouble.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
But you are wrong on the abortion issue. IT is a life regardless of how you try to get around it. I do agree that they are instants where abortion may not be wrong. My problem with it though is using it as a form of birth control and the partial birth abortion.
I have no doubt that the fetus is alive, but it is a fetus nonetheless, that is my understanding of it. If the fetus were a born person, then it would not be the woman’s choice.
The fetus is in the woman’s body. The woman’s body; the woman’s choice. A woman should have the right to make the choice to do what she wants to with her body.
I don't like the idea of some other person telling another person what to do with their own body, it just is an infringement of the rights of another and that is just wrong to me.
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shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
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posted
Youre actually thinking for yourself now. Dont know where I m proud of you or shocked. These are some of the arguments I had with you when you first came to this board. This is exactly what I was trying to get you to see. Read it for yourself instead of automatically believing something you hear.
Youre right, its not wrong to drink a beer, but to get drunk it is. The thing is, if youre a christian and youre sitting in a restraunt eating, and someone youve been witnessing to, sees you drinking that beer..It can cause them to stumble. They dont know if you ve had 1 or 12 and they can think, if theyre are drinking, WHY should I go to church?
Nowhere in the Bible does it state that 2 people have to be married by a pastor or anybody to have sex. How come those 2 people cant be faithful to each other and never get that piece of paper? How come that cant declare their love for each other and be married in Gods eyes?
But you are wrong on the abortion issue. IT is a life regardless of how you try to get around it. I do agree that they are instants where abortion may not be wrong. My problem with it though is using it as a form of birth control and the partial birth abortion.
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Good NewsforAll
Advanced Member
Member # 6156
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posted
The statistical numbers of abortions is mind-boggling. The Holy Spirit must be deeply grieved.
John 11:35 Jesus wept.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
quote:
A black person is a person, a fetus is NOT a person. Black people were not in the wombs of white slave owners. THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
Fetuses are persons
quote:
Fetuses were not brought here on slaveships, urinating and deficating on themselves stacked on top of eachother like cargo.
No but fetuses are killed, torn apart alive and dead bodies piled on top of each others in garbage cans
quote:
Fetuses were not forced to work from daytime to nighttime for nothing.
no, they never even been given the chance.
quote:
Fetuses were not bred like animals.
Fetuses are being bred like animals for stem cell research!
quote:
Fetuses were not raped and beaten and castrated.
Fetuses are being torn apart, bodies dismembered while still alive and trown in thrash!
quote:
Fetuses were not taken away from their families.
Fetuses are being taken away from families, taken from grandfathers, grandmother, uncles, aunts, cousins (in most cases of abortion some family member would be willing to give the fetuse/baby a home)!
quote:
Fetuses were not whipped and beaten for mixing the blood of their thorncut fingertips with the white cotton that they were forced to pick for hours in the hot sun.
Fetuses were never given the chance!
http://www.blackgenocide.org/abortion.html
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Sound familiar? It should; it’s talking about American slavery. These are the things people have said about slavery before it was finally abolished. Slaveholders actually felt that their Constitutional rights to "liberty and justice" would be violated if they were told they couldn’t violate the liberty and justice of a black person.
A black person is a person, a fetus is NOT a person. Black people were not in the wombs of white slave owners. THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
Fetuses were not brought here on slaveships, urinating and deficating on themselves stacked on top of eachother like cargo.
Fetuses were not forced to work from daytime to nighttime for nothing.
Fetuses were not bred like animals.
Fetuses were not raped and beaten and castrated.
Fetuses were not taken away from their families.
Fetuses were not whipped and beaten for mixing the blood of their thorncut fingertips with the white cotton that they were forced to pick for hours in the hot sun.
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
(the poster's name is "Comparing Abortion and Slavery")
That is offensive to me as a black person to see that someone could actually try to compare abortion to the forced migration and enslavement of black people, when THERE IS NO COMPARISON.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
An embryo is not a person until it is fertilized. You say that Chimeras fuses two embryos together to make one person. That person would have one soul once it is fertilized.
In the first place: “Once the egg is fertilized it has become God's creation from the moment of conception, not to be tampered with”, right?
That is what you have said here:
quote:
However, once the egg is fertilized it has become God's creation from the moment of conception, not to be tampered with.
On page #1.
In 1998, doctors at the University of Edinburgh highlighted a case in which two embryos, one male and one female, fused in development to form a single child.
Source cited: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3264467.stm
So in simple terms: Two eggs are fertilized(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll), which turns into two non-identical embryo twins, but under some bizarre circumstances, both embryos end up fused together in the womb, and the mother ends up giving birth to one child. <This is not some sci-fi flick either: this is real life. > Around 30 cases of chimerism have been reported.
A mother had been pregnant with non-identical twins who had fused together in the womb to make one person.
So if the fertilized eggs(“God’s creation”, “not to be tampered with”, according to Good NewsForAll) are truly people, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin in the womb started off as two fertilized eggs. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are they two people?
Do you have an answer for that, “Good NewsforAll”?
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
You have said that it is not a human being.
In the second place: I have said that a fetus is not a person because that is what I believe; a human fetus is human, but it is not yet a person. I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person. I believe it can be called a babe or even a child because it is human, but it is still a fetus nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
And what do the Chimera have to do with it anyway?
In the third place: I am using Chimeras as an example to support my belief that fetuses are not people, they are human but NOT people.
God made all people; Chimeras are people so God made them too.
The term “Chimerism” is used to describe their condition.
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
The only beings MY bible refers to are human, God, Archangels, Cherabim, Seraphim, Angels, Satan, Demons, Devils...No Chimera....
In the forth place: Chimeras are the people that I believe you have just insulted. I believe that you are saying that Chimeras are not even human. CHIMERAS ARE HUMAN, AND THEY ARE REAL. Please do not deny reality.
Chimerism
A “Chimera” is NOT just some mythical creature; Chimeras are real. A Chimera woman said: ”Myth no longer it is now realistic and I'm living proof.” Source cited: http://www.geocities.com/mylifewithchimera/Chimera.html
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
And no where does it say 2 people have to be married to have sex, why cant they just live together?
In the fifth place: Fornication is sin, and that is in the bible. I believe that people need to be married in God’s eyes and live together, God’s eyes are more important than the eyes of men. As long as God sees the two people as married, it should be okay for them to live together.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
OR drinking a beer is wrong.
In the sixth place: I cannot find that it is a sin to drink a beer in the bible. As far as I know, it is a sin to get drunk off beer, not to drink beer. I believe that it is okay to drink, but it is not okay to get drunk. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Or gambling is wrong.
In the seventh place: I cannot find that it is a sin to gamble in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Or rap/rock music is wrong.
In the eighth place: I cannot find that rap/rock music is a sin in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God. And I feel betrayed by the person who told me that rap was “satanic”.
I was doing a little research on hip-hop culture and rap music and I found that the things that person told me about it were not true. Rap stared off as innocent poetry and music, my true authentic culture… But it was getting little radio play; artists craved a bigger audience so they had to change the music to a commercial(worldly) style that would reach the masses.
So-called hip-hop culture is the result of record labels selling themselves out to the corporate interests. Many mainstream rap acts commercialized rap, and they perverted it, which could be why most mainstream acts sound and look alike to me. Rap did not surface to the masses as authentic; it surfaced as a worldly gimmick in order to reach them.
quote:
Originally posted by shadowmaker:
Youre twisting the words Rose, its wrong and regardless of the reasoning you come up with, its still wrong. Its a life, if you abort it, you killed it.
In the ninth place: I cannot find that abortion is a sin in the bible. It can be wrong in your opinion, but that does not make it a sin against God.
I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it. I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I refuse to infringe upon the rights of others that seem okay with it. I see nowhere in the bible where it tells me to infringe upon the rights of others that do not believe as I do.
And in the tenth place: My name is not Rose, you can call me Glacialis or even Glac for short, shadowmaker.
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
Here is a link to a video I made awhile back - When the "Roe vs Wade" decision anniversary came up.
Be sure to have the sound on - You'll hear and see "Roe" and her public confession of Jesus Christ and her desire to see the Supreme Courts overturn what she did in 1973...
Abortion
Very good video, thanks for posting the link.
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Blessed are the children!
-Glacialis Caerul Femella
"And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
Win us with honest trifles, to betray 's
In deepest consequence." -- William Shakespeare (1564-1616)
It’s legal.
It’s "Constitutional."
It’s been upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.
People still protest it despite its obvious legality.
The media has instituted a self-imposed "blackout" of the opposition.
The U.S. Mail has banned the mailing of certain opposition literature.
Compared to other controversial "free speech" issues, Congress and the courts have greatly stifled the voices of opposition.
It’s an issue of "choice."
It’s a "privacy issue" that concerns no one else.
It’s not human life protected by the law (thus it can be terminated).
Those who oppose it are "troublemaking intolerant bigots."
I have a right to do this. I would be deprived of my Constitutional rights of "liberty and justice" if I am restricted in this area.
Sound familiar? It should; it’s talking about American slavery. These are the things people have said about slavery before it was finally abolished. Slaveholders actually felt that their Constitutional rights to "liberty and justice" would be violated if they were told they couldn’t violate the liberty and justice of a black person.
Now, 150 years later, we wonder how these people couldn’t see the obvious contradictions of such statements. Yet, we are doing the exact same thing with abortion. We are told that the unborn child is the personal property of the women and she has the right to do whatever she wants with it.
Treating human life as property is wrong in any century. America’s treatment of the unborn child is just as deplorable and despicable as America’s past treatment of slaves. There is no difference. If you feel slavery is wrong, you have to say abortion is wrong. The parallels between abortion and slavery are too great to ignore. Either our Constitution supports both or opposes both. Either we abolish abortion or we have to legalize slavery. Americans need to decide, once and for all, if human life can be treated as property.
To obtain a poster of these facts, go to the Poster page
http://www.biblehelp.org/prochoice.htm
(the poster's name is "Comparing Abortion and Slavery")
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Favor Minded
Advanced Member
Member # 4661
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posted
Here is a link to a video I made awhile back - When the "Roe vs Wade" decision anniversary came up.
Be sure to have the sound on - You'll hear and see "Roe" and her public confession of Jesus Christ and her desire to see the Supreme Courts overturn what she did in 1973...
Abortion
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
American Abortion Counter
http://www.biblehelp.org/abortioncnt.htm
41,476,523 MURDERED INNOCENT UN-BORN AMERICANS x (200 millilitres of blood or 6 ½ fluid ounces)/128 US fluid ounces =
2,106,229 Gallons of INNOCENT UNBORN AMERICAN BLOOD.
Down the drain reprocessed then back into the drinking water of the people.
No longer does the blood cry up from the ground but from the very water we drink.
Lev.17
[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Gen.4
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
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That is all.....
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
Voice of an unborn child
Secretly..I've been formed
Noone knows for sure when I'll be born
I could be early, I could be late
I could be born right on the date
But it's no secret..how I was created
And the Father above....he knows me
I don't understand..how I could be hated
and you kill me...you kill me.....
What did I do? What have I done?
Don't you want to have a daughter or a son?
You say it's your body, you say it's your life
But I'm really someone growing inside
But it's no secret..how I was created
And the Father above....he knows me
I don't understand..how I could be hated
and you kill me...you kill me.....
I cannot speak, nor can I walk
So I depend on you to please make them stop!
I have a body, with fingers and toes
And I have a heartbeat, thump-thump it goes.....
thump-thump it goes....thump-thump it goes....
Please let me live.
Don't let me die
Life is something we all should try
If you don't want me, somebody will
Then you can have your life...
....and I'll have my life still
This is a song written by Melissa Henry and is part of a tape entitled Song Harvest
Every year in the United States, Nearly one and a half million babies are murdered by their own mother.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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shadowmaker
Advanced Member
Member # 3696
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posted
And no where does it say 2 people have to be married to have sex, why cant they just live together? OR drinking a beer is wrong. Or gambling is wrong. Or rap/rock music is wrong. Or me giving more rights to a green person over a purple one. ETC ETC ETC.
But you have to use a little common sense. Youre twisting the words Rose, its wrong and regardless of the reasoning you come up with, its still wrong. Its a life, if you abort it, you killed it.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Favor Minded
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And what do the Chimera have to do with it anyway?
Do they appear in some biblical text I am unaware of?
Since when does Greek Mythology have ANYTHING to do with God, Jesus Christ, or the Church?
The mix if a lion, goat, snake, and whatever else they were supposed to be has little to do with the biblical ramifications of abortion.
Were you referring to Cherabims perhaps?
The only beings MY bible refers to are human, God, Archangels, Cherabim, Seraphim, Angels, Satan, Demons, Devils...No Chimera....
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
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Favor Minded
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Itty Bitty says
quote:
As I have said, a fetus can be called a babe.
But that is not what you said -
You said
quote:
Fetuses are not people to me.
and you said
quote:
Okay, where is proof in the bible that the verse that you have cited applies to fetuses? Where is it? Where is it? Why can’t I find that in the bible? It appears to be all according to you. So it looks to me like you have inserted your own judgment into God’s word.
And you said
quote:
I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person.
Then Caretaker said
quote:
Well Rose there is nothing of any merit, or credibility, in your position. Your position is absolutely contrary to God, contrary to His Word, and neither is your pro-abortion position worthy of any form of respect.
AMEN...
Abortion advocates contend that the Bible is silent on abortion and that none of the biblical passages cited by pro-life advocates actually say the unborn are human. Are we to conclude from this alleged silence that elective abortion is morally permitted?
There are good reasons to say no. First, the Bible’s lack of explicit prohibitions against abortion does not mean that it condones the practice; instead, Scripture writers did not believe prohibitions against abortion were necessary because neither the Hebrews of the
Old Testament nor the Christians of the New Testament were likely to kill their unborn children.
Second, the Bible need not explicitly say elective abortion is wrong before we can know that it’s wrong. The Bible affirms that all humans are valuable because they bear God’s image. Science clearly demonstrates that the
unborn are unquestionably human from the earliest stages of development.
Biblical commands against the unjust taking of human life, therefore, apply to the unborn as they do other human beings. Third, abortion advocates cannot account for basic human equality. If humans are valuable only because of some acquired property such as self-awareness, then it follows that since this acquired property comes in varying degrees, basic human rights also come in varying degrees. It’s far more reasonable theologically to argue that although humans differ immensely in their respective degrees of development, they are nonetheless equally valuable because they have in common a nature made in the image of God.
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If embryos are truly people with souls, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin started off as two embryos that fused together in the womb to make one person. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are Chimeras two people?
An embryo is not a person until it is fertilized. You say that Chimeras fuses two embryos together to make one person. That person would have one soul once it is fertilized.
quote:
As I have said, a fetus can be called a babe.
You have said that it is not a human being.
quote:
I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it. I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I refuse to infringe upon the rights of others that seem okay with it. I see nowhere in the bible where it tells me to infringe upon the rights of others that do not believe as I do.
Jesus didn't condemn either, but he did say to the woman caught in the act of adultery-
John 8: 11 She said, "No man, Lord." And Jesus said unto her, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
"From the moment my mother conceived me" implies that there is a person inside the womb,'Me'. I'm sure you have seen many pictures of ultrasounds. Apparently sometimes the tiny person sucks its thumb or hiccups. They can tell the gender of a child by an ultrasound, which indicates that there is a little person inside.
Anyway, why have you not answered my question about the Chimeras? They came from two embryos fused into one fetus, so how can they be?
If embryos are truly people with souls, then what about the Chimeras? A Chimera’s origin started off as two embryos that fused together in the womb to make one person. Do Chimeras have two souls? Are Chimeras two people?
Why don’t you seem to have an answer for that while you seem to claim that I am the one in denial?
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
Maybe you are in denial about the reality of impact of abortion -
Main Entry: de·ni·al
Pronunciation: di-'nI(-&)l, dE-
Function: noun
2 a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false b : refusal to acknowledge a person or a thing :
5 : negation in logic
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped.
As I have said, a fetus can be called a babe.
quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
There is no denying the sin of abortion. We can't play God - it is murder. However, God will forgive any sin with his endless grace and mercy.
I do not know how God feels about abortion. Whether he is okay with it or not, I do not want to label something a sin just because I am not okay with it. I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I refuse to infringe upon the rights of others that seem okay with it. I see nowhere in the bible where it tells me to infringe upon the rights of others that do not believe as I do.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.
Who does Jesus hate, Drew?
The shedding of innocent blood is murder, but murder kills people. Cain killed Abel, that was murder because a person was killed. I don't believe that a fetus is a person, it is merely developing into a person.
P.S. I am NOT ROSE, could you please stop calling me that name?
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Good NewsforAll
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As we all know, Scott Peterson, was found guilty for the double homicide of his wife Laci Peterson and their unborn child, Connor.
Laci's mother, Sharon Rocha, was on Larry King last night, and they were pointing out that Pres. Bush signed an unborn victims of violence law in April 2004, through the Fed. Govt., protecting the rights of an unborn child.
Still abortions run rampant. The devil must be having a great chuckle out of this hypoctrical world we have created through the assistance of his crafty tactics.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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KnowHim
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posted
When The Pain Won’t Go Away: Dealing With The Aftereffects Of Abortion
Since the Roe v. Wade decision in 1973, over 40 million pregnancies have been terminated in the US by abortion. Each year, an estimated 50 million abortions occur worldwide. Many struggle in silence for years with the pain of what they did. The purpose of this booklet is to provide understanding and hope for women who are struggling with the trauma of a past abortion. It addresses their secret pain and loss, and offers the comfort of Christ to their uniquely broken heart.
The purpose of this booklet is to provide understanding and hope for a woman struggling with the trauma of a past abortion. If you're that woman, we want you to know that you're not alone. Someone cares and understands. Healing is possible, through a path of sorrow that leads to repentance, forgiveness, freedom, and joy (2 Cor. 7:10). Jesus offered hope to His followers--no matter what they had done--when He taught, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted" (Mt. 5:4).
Click Here to read this free online booklet in PDF format.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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artm
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Please forgive me, But just as a PS.
I want to remind everyone who has had an abortion, There is FORGIVNESS.
Thank God, Because if God would not forgive those who have committed murder by way of abortion, then who could be saved of any sin ?
The devil will tell people that God can never forgive them such a horrible sin,That is a lie,Jesus came to earth to save that which was lost.
Thats you and me,Ask Jesus to forgive you,He will,
God loves you,Repent from your heart,and let Jesus in.
God bless. Pastor Mann
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Not to me, I can’t see it in there where God says that a fetus is a person.
You say it is not biblical that a fetus is a person. The word 'prodigal' isn't in the Bible, the word 'Trinity' is not in the Bible, such as the word 'fetus' is not in the Bible, but references are made to all of the above in the Bible.
Psalm 51:5 For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.
"From the moment my mother conceived me" implies that there is a person inside the womb,'Me'. I'm sure you have seen many pictures of ultrasounds. Apparently sometimes the tiny person sucks its thumb or hiccups. They can tell the gender of a child by an ultrasound, which indicates that there is a little person inside.
There is nothing more compelling than -
quote:
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped.
Maybe you are in denial about the reality of impact of abortion -
Main Entry: de·ni·al
Pronunciation: di-'nI(-&)l, dE-
Function: noun
2 a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false b : refusal to acknowledge a person or a thing :
5 : negation in logic
There is no denying the sin of abortion. We can't play God - it is murder. However, God will forgive any sin with his endless grace and mercy.
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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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artm
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posted
Hi, I am amazed at the number of people within the church who actually do not know what murder is.
They do not know what it is to take a life and cause that life to physically die.
If all the scripture we had was "Thou shalt not kill" One would think that would be enough.
What is the purpose for aborting a baby ?. Very few are for the health,Or life of the mother.
Most abortions are for nothing more than to end a pregnancy that was caused because of sex outside of marriage.
Most abortions are for nothing more than ending a life that came about because of sin,fornication,and lust.
For many that abortion will correct a mistake,or a moment of careless passion.
God help us.
For a Christian to support abortion is of great concern to me. it concerns me because to me it puts that brother or sister on the opposite side of the Word of God.
Some ask, " Where does it say in the Bible that abortion is sin, Or where does it say that a woman does not have the right to choose ?
I would ask, " where does the Bible say that abortion is acceptable to God ? Or that a woman has the right to end the life of the unwanted child.?
We could continue this subject untill Christ returns,But if it is in the heart of a person to accept this practise there is nothing that I can say that will change their mind.
If the Word of God can't change their mind I don't have a chanch.
I have no reason to believe that those involved in this topic are ignorant of the Word of God, So then I must conclude that there is another problem.
How someone can read the Bible to any degree at all, and can still say that abortion is acceptable to any degree is amazing to me.
I will not judge anyone's salvation that is the right of Almighty God alone.
But God has given the church the right to examine and judge what a person may teach or declare to be the Word of God.
As I understand the Word of God,Abortion is sin,being the murder of an unborn baby.
Others will disagree,so be it, God will soon set everything in order.
God bless, Pastor Mann
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Caretaker
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posted
Well Rose there is nothing of any merit, or credibility, in your position. Your position is absolutely contrary to God, contrary to His Word, and neither is your pro-abortion position worthy of any form of respect.
What about Rape?
What about a woman who is pregnant due to rape or incest?
Less than 1% of all abortions are due to rape or incest. Furthermore, since conception doesn’t occur immediately after intercourse, pregnancy can be prevented in nearly all rape cases by medical treatments including the morning after pill (MAP).
Nearly all the women interviewed in a recent survey said they regretted aborting the babies conceived via rape or incest. Of those giving an opinion, more than 90 percent said they would discourage other victims of sexual violence from having an abortion (see report)
Finally, if you found out today that your biological father had raped your mother, would you feel you no longer had a right to live?
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/abortion.html
Abortion Is An Act of Murder
In reference to pregnant women, the term "with child" occurs twenty-six times in the Bible. The term "with fetus" never occurs once.
In Luke chapter one, verses 36 and 41, we are told that Elisabeth conceived a "son" and that the "babe" leaped in her womb. God does not say that a "fetus" leaped in her womb! He says THE BABE leaped. This is the exact same word that God uses to describe Christ in the manger AFTER He is born (Luke 2:12, 16). In God eyes, an unborn babe and a newborn babe are the same. They are both living human beings!
Dear reader, please answer a question: What is an "infant?" Get the answer in your mind and keep it there for a moment. Do you have it? Okay, please consider Job 3:16: "Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light." Did you see that? Job referred to unborn children as INFANTS. Not fetuses! Not masses of tissue! INFANTS! In God's eyes, an unborn child is a living human baby. God never says once that an unborn child is anything less than a human being.
David said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." He did not say that a fetus was shapen in iniquity and conceived in iniquity. David, speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that HE was conceived. David, not a blob of tissue, was conceived.
The same is the case in Psalm 139:13-16:
"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."
Who was in the womb? David! A literal and living person. The Bible never uses anything less than human terms to describe the unborn.
Notice that in Jeremiah 1:5 we are told that God KNEW Jeremiah:"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
To further confirm the fact that God views the unborn child as a person, please consider Exodus 21:22-23:
"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,"
If the woman has a premature birth and the child lives ("no mischief follows"), then there's no death penalty. However, if the child dies (or the woman dies) God says the death penalty applies: "thou shalt give life for life." Why would God require the death penalty if He didn't consider the unborn child to be a human being?
Friend, like it or not, God says that life begins at conception, and the unborn child is a human being.
But the Bible isn't alone in declaring this truth. Science also declares that an unborn child is just as much an independent human being as you. The original human cell consists of 46 chromosomes, 23 from each parent. At no point during pregnancy does the mother contribute any new cells to the child. The original cell divides itself and multiplies to provide development and growth for the child. Scientifically speaking, the child is just as independent at six months before birth as he will be six months after birth. Yes, the mother does provide nourishment to the unborn child, but she also provides nourishment to the newborn child!
At two weeks pregnancy, the "fetus" can move alone. By four weeks the child has limbs, muscle tissue, a heart and heartbeat. Ears, eyes, and small hands are visible by the fifth week. The child responds to touch sensations by the sixth or seventh week. At eight weeks, the baby sometimes tries to take a breath when removed from the mother. At twelve weeks, the child will often struggle for life two or three hours when removed from the mother.
Friend, abortion is wrong because abortion is MURDER!
Abortion Involves the Shedding of Innocent Blood
Proverbs 6:16-17 says that God HATES those who shed innocent blood! Deuteronomy 27:25 says, "Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen."
Who could possibly be more innocent than an unborn baby?! Yet, our society has become so wicked that it condones the slaying of 1.5 million innocent children every year.
The Bible says that God HATES people who do this.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
Hello, artm.
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
One who bases all opions from the Word of God. A Christian is one who has accepted Christ as their personal Saviour, And who accepts the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.
How can someone who said that, turn around and say this completely non-biblical statement here:
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
America will face the judgement of God for its murder of millions of unborn babies every year.
Every abortion doctor, every nurse who aids in abortion,and every woman and every man will stand before a Holy God and give account for murder.
Every politician,And every voter who helped put these people in office knowing their support of abortion will give account also.
? That is completely non-biblical. God’s judgment abides on an individual, not the whole land for the sin of an individual. When the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather those who offend God and practice lawlessness, the wicked will be cast into the fire where they will be in anguish as INDIVIDUAL UNREPENTANT SINNERS, NOT LANDS, and also when the harvest is ripe, the angels will gather the righteous, the righteous will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 13:36-43).
We all are entitled to our own opinions, but when a person puts their own opinions in the bible and tries to pass them off as biblical truth then THAT IS A PROBLEM. So if it is your own opinion and judgment, then it is your own belief, but please do not say that something is in the bible when it is simply NOT THERE. I see no biblical evidence to support your claim that abortion is sin, let alone murder, so that is your OPINION.
quote:
Originally posted by artm:
Psalm 106:37-38 Declares: Yea,they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood,Even the blood of their sons and of their daughters.
The land was polluted with the blood of the innocent children. And this from those who claimed to be people of God.
Abortion is the sacrifice of innocent babies to the idols of pleasure, And the idols of lust and fornication.
Okay, where is proof in the bible that the verse that you have cited applies to fetuses? Where is it? Where is it? Why can’t I find that in the bible? It appears to be all according to you. So it looks to me like you have inserted your own judgment into God’s word.
Rape is not a pleasure to a woman, not every victim of a rape wants to have the child of her rapist. So what idol do they “sacrifice” their “innocent babies” to? How can a person murder what isn’t even born?
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Because Rose it is not the Lord Jesus Christ that leads women to butcher their babies on the alter of convenience.
Fetuses are not people to me. And I have told you that I am not Rose, would you please STOP calling me Rose? I find that very insulting, offensive and rude for you to continue calling me a name that I have told you was not mine.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
The Bible makes it clear that an unborn person is still a person to God.
Not to me, I can’t see it in there where God says that a fetus is a person.
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
They can choose not to have unprotected sex.
I don’t believe that rape is a choice. What if a woman is raped and got pregnant and does not want to have the child? Not every victim of a rape wants to have the child of her rapist.
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
Pro choice is not able choosing to have a baby or not, it is all about having the right to kill a baby, because the child is incovienent for the mother.
That is your opinion. I believe that fetuses don’t have rights, people have rights. A woman is a person, and she should be entitled to her rights here in America if this is truly a free country. What right does a person have to infringe upon the rights of others?
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