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Author
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Topic: Does God Want You To Be Rich?
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Itty-Bitty Girl
Advanced Member
Member # 4579
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
Eden,
It is refreshing to see your balanced approach to the Word. It is amazing how the legalistic crowd (that most likely has more wealth and blessings in this country than the majority of the rest of the world) sits in their comfy rooms on their computers and points an accusing finger at "the rich."
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII hate this. I hate when people use inciting posts to defend the damnable heretical prosperity doctrine. This person appears to be so judgemental about people who are not afraid to speak the truth about the word of God. This person is accusing us of sitting in our "comfy rooms" on our computers and pointing "an accusing finger at 'the rich'"...
All the while this person points an accusing, judgemental, self-righteous withered finger at myself and others, the people who are willing to stand up and speak out against the damnable heresies upon us all.
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
As I have often tried to explain, it is a matter of the heart. The Word speaks out against the wealthy when they are greedy, selfish, and not honoring God with their wealth as they are told to do in Proverbs 3:9.
This person keeps on saying that. This person keeps on using that "matter of the heart ploy", I believe, to promote the false prosperity doctrine, the doctrine of greed and covetousness.
Okay, everyone, since this person just so refuses to listen to me and what I say, I will address that ploy as I have before to you:
And as for the heart...
Matthew 6:19-21: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
So there are people who are blessed by God with wealth. Others do not show themselves to be able to handle wealth and are blessed in other ways....all according to God's plan for their lives. But the Word is clear...He wants us to prosper.
There this person goes, degrading and accusing the poor. The explanation that "people are poor because they do not show themselves to be able to handle wealth" is clearly implied.
I admit that God does cause his children to prosper. The Lord wants us to have food on the table and to feed our kids. The Lord wants us to have shelter and heat in the house and clothes to wear. But NEEDS and wants are two different things. If you want to be like the rich and have numerous multi-million dollar homes and drive fancy $200,000 cars, is that God's will for your life? To own symbols of status in this world?
When we have wealth, it is for this purpose..not the lavishing of self:
Deuteronomy 8:18 "But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day."
Read the following additional Bible verses:
Pro 30:8 Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me:
Pro 30:9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.
Pro 23:4 Labour not to be rich: cease from thine own wisdom.
Pro 28:20 A faithful man shall abound with blessings: but he that maketh haste to be rich shall not be innocent.
Pro 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
"Giving to Get Rich Luxury Items"
If you listen to the Prosperity Preachers, they will tell you that you will get these rich things if you will only give to their ministry (and not to the local church.) "Give $1000.00 and get $100,000 back."
LISTEN CAREFULLY: the only people who ever get those million dollar homes and fancy cars by viewers giving are the preachers preaching this filthy lucre nonsense and receiving the offerings from Christians who "give to get." It's all about greed.
Posts: 1051 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Are you thinking no? I'm thinking, that depends on what God wants to do with me, and on who He can trust with His riches:
Hello Eden, I am very surprised at that comment by you. Before your post, I was thinking about such ploys as these. I was just about to address this ploy often used by the supporters of the prosperity doctrine.
By this, I believe this ploy is saying that God does not trust the poor with His riches, so they do not have any... which is an insult and is degrading to the poor. That is the high-minded speech of bigotry.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Matthew 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Matthew 25:13-14 (King James Version)
"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."
I have also heard of "The Parable of the Talents Ploy". If people think the parable of Talents was about money, they are mistaken.
That parable is not refering to actual money, it is only using money metaphorically to explain what the kingdom of heaven is like.
You see, Eden, money was called "Talents" [cited : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent ]. Jesus uses parables, or metaphors, as a way to explain what the kingdom of heaven is like, Eden. Remember the one about the wheat growing among the tares?
Matthew 13:24-30 (King James Version)
"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."
See, that parable is not refering to actual wheat and tares, but Jesus is simply using it metaphorically to explain how there are false converts(tares) among the true converts(wheat).
So if Jesus was actually refering to money in the parable of talents and had used actual money as an example, then Jesus would not be speaking in a parable.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Luke 16:11
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
Luke 16:12
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Who shall give you that which is your own?.
And about Luke 16:11-12, it is better stated in full context, let us look at it with its two surrounding verses:
Luke 16:10-13 (King James Version)
"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
Jesus was saying in Luke 16:10-12, that the people who have not been faithful to God with worldly riches, like the prosperity preachers, who exploit the poor, God will not be able to trust such cutthroat people with the true riches.
When I hear cutthroat prosperity preachers twist more and more scripture, so that they can add to their own selfish gain, it proves their love of money.
1 Timothy 6:9-11
“But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.”
They try to make the word of God say as they will it to, and that truly disgusts me, it proves that these people have no love for God.
***
Luke 16:13 (King James Version)
"No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon"
Agrees with... Matthew 6:24.
Matthew 6:24 (King James Version)
“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
God will make some poor, and He will make some rich, some very rich.
Just to see how other people will react to them, for instance. Does so and so extend mercy?
I saw a great line on a singles Internet profile once. It was of a Christian woman who said she'd like to find a man who knew how to extend mercy to the people he met during the day.
Deuteronomy 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
As I have stated before: the dreadful way that the defenders of the propserity gospel use that scripture, Deuteronomy 8:18, as justification to exploit the poor.
The proponents of the hellish prosperity doctrine have taken that verse completely out of context.
Eden, here is the same verse in its right context, used by Linda.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
How many do you know with vast amounts of the wealth of this world that have no sorrow that comes with their wealth?
and this one.. when we have wealth it is for this purpose..not the lavishing of self.
De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
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becauseHElives
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truly I have only presented one side of the equation from my first post.
Truly Yahweh lets the rain fall on the just and the unjust.
It is Yahweh that allows anyone to get what and where he/she gets. But that doesn’t mean it is the best thing for the individual.
Hitler got wealth, Yahweh allowed it; I don’t think it was of any help to bring him to righteousness or used for righteousness..
George Bush family they got wealth, but the fruit on their trees prove where they will spend eternity unless they repent.
I would like to be wealthy, if Yahweh knew I could handle it (I don’t believe on “Once Saved Always Saved” damnable doctrine the way so many preach it.) So I pray Father do not let me have more of anything than you know I am mature enough to handle.
In my first post on this thread, I wrote only in showing the terrible damage that has been caused in the church by the Bennie Hinns, Joel Osteens, Kenneth Copelands and the like false teachers.
I am not against Yahweh blessing people financially, I am truly all for it but not to see people take that wealth and spend it on their covetous hearts only to end up with the care of this world choking out the life of Yahweh..
in another post , I pointed out that Yahweh had put 2 1/2 million dollars in one mans hands and he gave it away to take care of orphans, he used just enough to live a simple life with no exorbitant life styles.
GEORGE MUELLER (1805-1898)
If we were to list only a few men of God that have had the most influence upon the Christian Adoption ministry, the life and example of George Mueller would have to appear in that list.
Of course--our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the perfect example for us to follow and to imitate.
George Mueller was a man of faith and miracles. Certainly he was one of the greatest prayer warriors of the past century. His ministry was prospered because he trusted fully in God and he started a work that was born in his heart. During his ministry of 63 years, he supported missionaries, established the Scriptural Knowledge Institute in England, taught Sunday schools as well as day schools where teachers were Christian, distributed Bibles and religious tracts, and cared for orphans. He was directly involved in the Christian instruction of 121,683 pupils. He distributed 281,652 Bibles, 1,448,662 New Testaments, 21,343 copies of the Book of Psalms, and 222,196 other portions of the Holy Scriptures. He financially supported missionary operations in 26 different countries. He distributed 111,489,067 tracts/booklets/pamphlets, and was directly involved in the conversion of 2,813 orphans. He mastered 6 languages: French, German, Hebrew, Latin, Greek, and English.
Mr. Mueller was a native of Prussia, born in Kroppenstaedt, on September 27, 1805. He looked, after the shadow of God's glory rested upon him, beyond time and saw God. He realized that God alone was able, and in that realization the puny supplies of man dwarfed beside the reservoirs of God's grace which he tapped by faith. He learned the secret of getting things from God, the simple expedient of boldly coming to the throne to receive. He practiced this daily for 73 years, and in coming he never found the throne vacant nor the supplies exhausted. He learned not to bind God by the limits of his own faith. He asked, knowing that God, Who heard, was able.
Near the end of his life he affirmed that he had read the Bible through approximately 200 times, 100 of which was on his knees. He found God's promises in the Bible and experienced the truth of them in his everyday life. He learned to believe what he read and to act accordingly. He learned to tell not man but God his needs and to believe God would supply them. Mueller had mastered the lesson of outlooks--for he lived by the heavenly uplook, and not the earthly outlook!
"The Lord pours in, while we seek to pour out." This was always his plan of operation. He sought God to pour in the supplies, and he diligently furnished sources through which they might be distributed. As long as Mueller saw to the careful distribution of money and supplies, God never failed in pouring in the needed materials.
Mr. Mueller testified that in his lifetime 50,000 specific prayers were answered. Years before he died, about he middle of his career, he affirmed that up to that time 5000 of his definite prayers had been answered on the day of asking. He made it a habit to keep a notebook with 2-page entries. On one page he gave the petition and the date, and on the opposite page he entered the date of the answer. In this manner he was able to keep record of definite petitions, and their specific answers. He recommended this form to believers who desired specific results to their prayers. Thus there is no guesswork as to when God answers prayers.
"…I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk about, when I lie down and when I rise up. And the answers are always coming. Thousands and tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right and for the glory of God, I go on praying for it until the answer comes. George Mueller never gives up!"
"Let not Satan deceive you, " writes Mr. Mueller during those faith-wrenching days, "in making your think you could not have the same faith, but that is only for persons situated as I am. When I lose such a thing as a key, I ask the Lord to direct me to it, and I look for an answer to my prayer; when a person with whom I have an appointment does not come…I ask the Lord to be pleased to hasten him to me, and I look for an answer…Thus in all my temporal and spiritual concerns I pray to the Lord and expect an answer to my request; and may not you do the same dear believing reader?"
In giving advice gained through daily trials of his faith, this father of the orphans laid down rules for a Christian to follow by which they might also strengthen their faith. These rules are:
1. Read the Bible and meditate upon it. God has become known to us through prayer and meditation upon His own Word.
2. Seek to maintain an upright heart and a good conscience.
3. If we desire our faith to be strengthened, we should not shrink from opportunities where our faith may be tried, and therefore, through trial, be strengthened.
The last important point for the strengthening of our faith is that we let God work for us, when the hour of trial of our faith comes, and do not work a deliverance of our own. Would the believer therefore have his faith strengthened, he must give God time to work.
There was no detail too insignificant to take to the Lord in prayer. He lived literally according to the passage, "In all things by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God." "Real trust in God is above circumstances and appearances," he affirmed.
…the Mueller's set off for the United States in August 1877 aboard the Sardian…Off Newfoundland the weather turned cold and the ship's progress was seriously retarded by fog. The captain had been on the bridge for 24 hours when something happened which was to revolutionize his life. George Mueller appeared on the bridge.
"Captain, I have come to tell you I must be in Quebec by Saturday afternoon."
"It is impossible," said the captain.
"Very well, " said Mueller, "if your ship cannot take me, God will find some other way--I have never broken an engagement for 52 years. Let us go down into the chart-room and pray."
The Captain wondered which lunatic asylum Mueller had come from.
"Mr. Mueller," he said, "do you know how dense this fog is?"
"No, my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God, who controls every circumstance of my life."
Mueller then knelt down and prayed simply. When he had finished the captain was about to pray, but Mueller put his hand on his shoulder, and told him not to.
"First, you do not believe He will' and second, I believe He has, and there is no need whatever for you to pray about it."
The captain looked at Mueller in amazement.
"Captain," he continued, I have known my Lord for 52 years, and there has never been a single day that I have failed to get an audience with the King. Get up, captain, and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone."
The captain walked across to the door and opened it. The fog had lifted. It was the captain himself, who later told the story of this incident, and who was subsequently described by a well known evangelist as "one of the most devoted men I ever knew."
It was prayer that swept his soul free of doubt, distemper, and the after-effects of a trial by the incoming tide of peace. For this reason he could make such remarks as this entry on March 9, 1847, "The greater the difficulties, the easier for faith." And a later one, "The greater the trial, the sweeter the victory."
His victories came through prayer, trust in the Lord's unfailing promises and a faith that God's truth would not fail.
"It is not enough to begin to pray," he advises us, "nor to pray aright; nor is it enough to continue for a time to pray; but we must patiently, believingly continue in prayer, until we obtain an answer; and further, we have not only to continue in prayer unto the end, but we have also to believe that God does hear us and will answer our prayers. Most frequently we fail in not continuing in prayer until the blessing is obtained, and in not expecting the blessing."
During the last year of Mr. Mueller's life, among the gifts (for the feeding of the orphans) recorded were 7, 203 loaves of bread; 5,222 buns; 20 boxes of soap; 9 tons of coal; 26 haunches of venison; 112 rabbits; 312 pheasants; 5 bags of oatmeal; 26 cases of oranges; 5 boxes of dates and 4,013 pounds of meat along with hundreds of other items. Additionally he had prayed for the financial needs of the orphan houses and had during the course of his lifetime received over 2 1/2 million dollars--always making his requests known only to God. All of these gifts were needed to help care for and feed the thousands of orphans under his careful wing.
George Mueller was a living demonstration of the reality of the Scripture, "But my God shall supply all our need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:19)
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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trafield
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Member # 5358
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posted
Eden,
It is refreshing to see your balanced approach to the Word. It is amazing how the legalistic crowd (that most likely has more wealth and blessings in this country than the majority of the rest of the world) sits in their comfy rooms on their computers and points an accusing finger at "the rich."
As I have often tried to explain, it is a matter of the heart. The Word speaks out against the wealthy when they are greedy, selfish, and not honoring God with their wealth as they are told to do in Proverbs 3:9.
So there are people who are blessed by God with wealth. Others do not show themselves to be able to handle wealth and are blessed in other ways....all according to God's plan for their lives. But the Word is clear...He wants us to prosper.
Many blessings to you! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Eden
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Are you thinking no? I'm thinking, that depends on what God wants to do with me, and on who He can trust with His riches:
Matthew 25:23
His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Luke 16:11
If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches?
Luke 16:12
And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?
Who shall give you that which is your own?
God will make some poor, and He will make some rich, some very rich.
Just to see how other people will react to them, for instance. Does so and so extend mercy?
I saw a great line on a singles Internet profile once. It was of a Christian woman who said she'd like to find a man who knew how to extend mercy to the people he met during the day.
Deuteronomy 8:17
And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
Deuteronomy 8:18
But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
To summarize, God can and does make poor and rich men and women and children. God has His own reasons. At times nothing more than to record how people will react:
Matthew 18:33
Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Luke 10
32And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him.
"Go and do you likewise." As characters, God needs poor and rich people.
Be blessed.
Eden
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J4Jesus
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i'm thinking no
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Can mortal man limit God and stop His will from happening?
No.
No way, no how.
Joel Osteen, one of the members of the Word-Of-Faith cult preaches that sinful man has dominion and superiority over God. According to Joel Osteen, the Lord so desperately wants to give us our heart's desires, but we frustrate His will of blessing for our lives.
All the while, scriptures declare a God whose will cannot fail to achieve its purposes:
Daniel 4:35 (King James Version)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
Are these poor people preventing God's will from coming to pass?
No. Not by a long shot.
No one, not even the devil himself can prevent God's will from coming to pass.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Itty-Bitty Girl:
If it is the will of God that all Christians be rich, then why are there poor Christians?
There are poor Christians because it is NOT God's will that all Christians be rich, just as everyone is NOT supposed to be healed.
It is OKAY for a Christian to be poor, as it is OKAY for a Christian to be sick.
EVERYONE is not going to be rich, as EVERYONE is not going to be healed.
It is NOT okay to say that the poor and sick are in that state because they have no favor -Aw man, there goes that "F" word again.
The word "favor" has been corrupted by wicked Word-Of-Faith heretic modern-day Pharisees. They don't see it because they are blinded by their own self righteousness.
The wicked modern-day Pharisees tear down the poor and sick, they degrade the poor and the sick.
It sickens me... It drives me to righteous anger. Word-Of-Faith cult and all of its supporters seem to have so much bitterness, they are being so judgmental about the poor and sick.
I feel they should be asking themselves. "What if I am grieving the Holy Spirit?
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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The Word-Of-Faith movement is making me feel a little righteous anger.
The prosperity doctrine of devils declares that it is God's will for all Christians to have extreme luxurious worldly weath.
If it is the will of God that all Christians be rich, then why are there poor Christians?
Are these poor people preventing God's will from coming to pass?
Can mortal man limit God and stop His will from happening?
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by Post Patrol:
"Poor people like Prosperity," says Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University. "They hear it as aspirant. They hear, 'You can make it too--buy a car, get a job, get wealthy.' It can function as a form of liberation." It can also be exploitative. Outsiders, observes Milmon Harrison of the University of California at Davis, author of the book Righteous Riches, often see it as "another form of the church abusing people so ministers could make money."
Shame, shame, shame. Millions could be affected by this new powerful Word-Of-Faith heretic cult movement. I'm sure the devil is having a good laugh at this one.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Amen, Linda. Amen to that! God will not make people increase in worldly wealth to show His favor just by them praying or giving to WOF ministry for that reason. It just will not happen!
It is a scam. Prosperity Charades!
It's amazing how covetness works these days. The prosperity preachers use covetness as a lure because THEY are coveting. The preachers want more cash so they dangle a "get rich quick scheme" as bait.
How dare they exploit the poor? The exploited poor hope that they too will have the so-called "favor" that those ravening wolves preaching from the pulpit possess.
Those prosperity preachers are some sick... sick... sick... sick... sick... sick... sick... sick... people.
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
How many do you know with vast amounts of the wealth of this world that have no sorrow that comes with their wealth?
and this one.. when we have wealth it is for this purpose..not the lavishing of self.
De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
You know, Linda, I do not find it strange that you quoted the scripture that is often corrupted to justify prosperity doctrine and used it in context.
Your use of that scripture is completely in line with the word of God, unlike the dreadful way that the defenders of the propserity gospel use it as justification to exploit the poor.
Proponents of this "dogma" claim that its purpose is funding of preaching throughout the World, and is based largely on the Bible verse (Deuteronomy 8:18) which says, "God gives you the power to get wealth to establish his covenant."[cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_Doctrine ]
The proponents of the hellish prosperity doctrine have taken that verse completely out of context.
And by the way, notice also how those who justify the wealth and prosperity teachings must utilize the Old Testament to do so.
They cannot use the examples of the Apostles or the living standards of Jesus to even justify the oppulance and grandiose extravagence of the prophets of greed.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Very good points both of you Dale and Rose. Rose, I especially liked your thoughts on favor. I do believe that we are highly favored by God being HIS children, however, I was reading your post and thinking about those in the Bible who we can see were also highly favored... think of Joseph. Joseph was highly favored... God gave him favor with pharaoh and every where that Joseph went favor followed him and this allowed God to provide for his people.... for Joseph's family during the famine.
Think of Daniel... Daniel's favor allowed him to be in a position of great power in Babylon and that surely contributed to the fact that the Hebrews even in captivity prospered.
God gave Esther favor with the King that she was able to save the Jews.
Nehemiah was given favor before Artexerxes that he was able to begin the rebuilding of Jerusalem and bring freedom to Judah.
When I think of GOd's blessing and favor, I think of these verses:
Pr 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.
How many do you know with vast amounts of the wealth of this world that have no sorrow that comes with their wealth?
and this one.. when we have wealth it is for this purpose..not the lavishing of self.
De 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
Dale: you always have a way of hitting the nail square on the head. Must be the carpenter in you. Pun intended. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The same question could be phrased like this….. “Does Yahweh (God) want to destroy you?
Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl
for your miseries that shall come upon [you].
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Itty-Bitty Girl has been hammering this one for some time....
Does God Want You To Be Rich?
The same question could be phrased like this….. “Does Yahweh (God) want to destroy you?
Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you].
Mat 19:23-24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (This same text can be found in Mark 10:25 and Luke 18:25)
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Luk 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:17-18
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not high-minded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
Does Yahweh want to meet your needs? Yes He does
Does Yahweh want your bank full of money so you can live like a king while those around you do without? No He does not
Does Yahweh want to make you so rich with the things of this world you trust in your abundance and forget your source and supply? No He does not.
George Mueller was a living demonstration of how Yahweh places riches in the hand of a man, and how those riches should be used. …
In his lifetime, George Mueller received over 2 1/2 million dollars (when a million really was a million) --always making his requests known only to God, but when he died he had no money left behind in a bank account. He had transferred his riches to the Kingdom of Yahweh.
http://www.christianadoption.com/goals/mueller.htm
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Prosperity theology or Prosperity doctrine- is the doctrine that prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor. This favor may be preordained, or granted in return for prayer or merit-making.
Prosperity theology is commonly a part of televangelist and pentecostal churches which claims God wants Christians to be successful in every way, especially in their finances.
The doctrine is used by its proponents to become wealthy at the expense of persons who give or that the doctrine's focus on material wealth is misguided.
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You know, the more and more I hear the way properity teachers use the "F" word(Favor), the more I begin to hate what they have done to it.
Nowhere in God's word does it say prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor.
I believe that it is all a scam.
You see, God will not make people increase in worldly wealth to show His favor just by them praying or giving to WOF ministry for that reason. It just will not happen!
All that the wolves such as Joel Osteen do is feed on the lusts of others, using religion as a crutch to support their evil habits and adding to their evil gains.
If you don't increase in worldy goods, Joel's excuse is that you just don't have enough "favor". That is air-tight explanation for the decieved.
Favor,
Favor,
Favor,
You know, that word is so thrown around by the Word-Of-Faith cult that it has lost its true meaning.
Now it seems so that most people who believe the lies of the Word-Of-Faith cult would rather be "Favor minded" than "Truth minded", tuning into fake preachers that would rather scratch their itching ears than keep it real.
Scripture fulfilled:
The Heresy: 2 TIMOTHY 4: 2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Example of one of the Word-Of-Faith cult fables:
(Example)"Worldly prosperity and success in business is external evidence of God's favor."
I am extremely concerned about the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ, they are the ones who concern me the most, it would be a tragedy for them to go to hell for believing the blasphemous doctrines of demons.
People who are decieved need to wake up and flee the man pleasing doctine of the Word-Of-Faith cult.
It is so twisted how the few sincere seekers and new babes in Christ are being brainwashed into believing in the hellish doctrine of these money-loving talking wolves.
I didn't know the wolf could speak til' the day I saw the truth.
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Does God Want You To Be Rich?
A growing number of Protestant evangelists raise a joyful Yes! But the idea is poison to other, more mainstream pastors
By DAVID VAN BIEMA, JEFF CHU
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1533448-1,00.html
Posted Sunday, Sep. 10, 2006
When George Adams lost his job at an Ohio tile factory last October, the most practical thing he did, he thinks, was go to a new church, even though he had to move his wife and four preteen boys to Conroe, a suburb of Houston, to do it. Conroe, you see, is not far from Lakewood, the home church of megapastor and best-selling author Joel Osteen.
Osteen's relentlessly upbeat television sermons had helped Adams, 49, get through the hard times, and now Adams was expecting the smiling, Texas-twanged 43-year-old to help boost him back toward success. And Osteen did. Inspired by the preacher's insistence that one of God's top priorities is to shower blessings on Christians in this lifetime--and by the corollary assumption that one of the worst things a person can do is to expect anything less--Adams marched into Gullo Ford in Conroe looking for work. He didn't have entry-level aspirations: "God has showed me that he doesn't want me to be a run-of-the-mill person," he explains. He demanded to know what the dealership's top salesmen made--and got the job. Banishing all doubt--"You can't sell a $40,000-to-$50,000 car with menial thoughts"--Adams took four days to retail his first vehicle, a Ford F-150 Lariat with leather interior. He knew that many fellow salesmen don't notch their first score until their second week. "Right now, I'm above average!" he exclaims. "It's a new day God has given me! I'm on my way to a six-figure income!" The sales commission will help with this month's rent, but Adams hates renting. Once that six-figure income has been rolling in for a while, he will buy his dream house: "Twenty-five acres," he says. "And three bedrooms. We're going to have a schoolhouse (his children are home schooled). We want horses and ponies for the boys, so a horse barn. And a pond. And maybe some cattle."
"I'm dreaming big--because all of heaven is dreaming big," Adams continues. "Jesus died for our sins. That was the best gift God could give us," he says. "But we have something else. Because I want to follow Jesus and do what he ordained, God wants to support us. It's Joel Osteen's ministry that told me. Why would an awesome and mighty God want anything less for his children?"
In three of the Gospels, Jesus warns that each of his disciples may have to "deny himself" and even "take up his Cross." In support of this alarming prediction, he forcefully contrasts the fleeting pleasures of today with the promise of eternity: "For what profit is it to a man," he asks, "if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" It is one of the New Testament's hardest teachings, yet generations of churchgoers have understood that being Christian, on some level, means being ready to sacrifice--money, autonomy or even their lives.
But for a growing number of Christians like George Adams, the question is better restated, "Why not gain the whole world plus my soul?" For several decades, a philosophy has been percolating in the 10 million--strong Pentecostal wing of Christianity that seems to turn the Gospels' passage on its head: certainly, it allows, Christians should keep one eye on heaven. But the new good news is that God doesn't want us to wait. Known (or vilified) under a variety of names--Word of Faith, Health and Wealth, Name It and Claim It, Prosperity Theology--its emphasis is on God's promised generosity in this life and the ability of believers to claim it for themselves. In a nutshell, it suggests that a God who loves you does not want you to be broke. Its signature verse could be John 10: 10: "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." In a TIME poll, 17% of Christians surveyed said they considered themselves part of such a movement, while a full 61% believed that God wants people to be prosperous. And 31%--a far higher percentage than there are Pentecostals in America--agreed that if you give your money to God, God will bless you with more money.
"Prosperity" first blazed to public attention as the driveshaft in the moneymaking machine that was 1980s televangelism and faded from mainstream view with the Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart scandals. But now, after some key modifications (which have inspired some to redub it Prosperity Lite), it has not only recovered but is booming. Of the four biggest megachurches in the country, three--Osteen's Lakewood in Houston; T.D. Jakes' Potter's House in south Dallas; and Creflo Dollar's World Changers near Atlanta--are Prosperity or Prosperity Lite pulpits (although Jakes' ministry has many more facets). While they don't exclusively teach that God's riches want to be in believers' wallets, it is a key part of their doctrine. And propelled by Osteen's 4 million--selling book, Your Best Life Now, the belief has swept beyond its Pentecostal base into more buttoned-down evangelical churches, and even into congregations in the more liberal Mainline. It is taught in hundreds of non-Pentecostal Bible studies. One Pennsylvania Lutheran pastor even made it the basis for a sermon series for Lent, when Christians usually meditate on why Jesus was having His Worst Life Then. Says the Rev. Chappell Temple, a Methodist minister with the dubious distinction of pastoring Houston's other Lakewood Church (Lakewood United Methodist), an hour north of Osteen's: "Prosperity Lite is everywhere in Christian culture. Go into any Christian bookstore, and see what they're offering."
The movement's renaissance has infuriated a number of prominent pastors, theologians and commentators. Fellow megapastor Rick Warren, whose book The Purpose Driven Life has outsold Osteen's by a ratio of 7 to 1, finds the very basis of Prosperity laughable. "This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy?", he snorts. "There is a word for that: baloney. It's creating a false idol. You don't measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn't everyone in the church a millionaire?"
The brickbats--both theological and practical (who really gets rich from this?)--come especially thick from Evangelicals like Warren. Evangelicalism is more prominent and influential than ever before. Yet the movement, which has never had a robust theology of money, finds an aggressive philosophy advancing within its ranks that many of its leaders regard as simplistic, possibly heretical and certainly embarrassing.
Prosperity's defenders claim to be able to match their critics chapter and verse. They caution against broad-brushing a wide spectrum that ranges from pastors who crassly solicit sky's-the-limit financial offerings from their congregations to those whose services tend more toward God-fueled self-help. Advocates note Prosperity's racial diversity--a welcome exception to the American norm--and point out that some Prosperity churches engage in significant charity. And they see in it a happy corrective for Christians who are more used to being chastened for their sins than celebrated as God's children. "Who would want to get in on something where you're miserable, poor, broke and ugly and you just have to muddle through until you get to heaven?" asks Joyce Meyer, a popular television preacher and author often lumped in the Prosperity Lite camp. "I believe God wants to give us nice things." If nothing else, Meyer and other new-breed preachers broach a neglected topic that should really be a staple of Sunday messages: Does God want you to be rich?
As with almost any important religious question, the first response of most Christians (especially Protestants) is to ask how Scripture treats the topic. But Scripture is not definitive when it comes to faith and income. Deuteronomy commands believers to "remember the Lord your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth", and the rest of the Old Testament is dotted with celebrations of God's bestowal of the good life. On at least one occasion--the so-called parable of the talents (a type of coin)--Jesus holds up savvy business practice (investing rather than saving) as a metaphor for spiritual practice. Yet he spent far more time among the poor than the rich, and a majority of scholars quote two of his most direct comments on wealth: the passage in the Sermon on the Mount in which he warns, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth ... but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven"; and his encounter with the "rich young ruler" who cannot bring himself to part with his money, after which Jesus famously comments, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Both statements can be read as more nuanced than they at first may seem. In each case it is not wealth itself that disqualifies but the inability to understand its relative worthlessness compared with the riches of heaven. The same thing applies to Paul's famous line, "Money is the root of all evil," in his first letter to Timothy. The actual quote is, "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."
So the Bible leaves plenty of room for a discussion on the role, positive or negative, that money should play in the lives of believers. But it's not a discussion that many pastors are willing to have. "Jesus' words about money don't make us very comfortable, and people don't want to hear about it," notes Collin Hansen, an editor at the evangelical monthly Christianity Today. Pastors are happy to discuss from the pulpit hot-button topics like sex and even politics. But the relative absence of sermons about money--which the Bible mentions several thousand times--is one of the more stunning omissions in American religion, especially among its white middle-class precincts. Princeton University sociologist Robert Wuthnow says much of the U.S. church "talks about giving but does not talk about the broader financial concerns people have, or the pressures at work. There has long been a taboo on talking candidly about money."
In addition to personal finances, a lot of evangelical churches have also avoided any pulpit talk about social inequality. When conservative Christianity split from the Mainline in the early 20th century, the latter pursued their commitment to the "social gospel" by working on poverty and other causes such as civil rights and the Vietnam-era peace movement. Evangelicals went the other way: they largely concentrated on issues of individual piety. "We took on personal salvation--we need our sins redeemed, and we need our Saviour," says Warren. But "some people tended to go too individualistic, and justice and righteousness issues were overlooked."
A recent Sunday at Lakewood gives some idea of the emphasis on worldly gain that disturbs Warren. Several hundred stage lights flash on, and Osteen, his gigawatt smile matching them, strides onto the stage of what used to be the Compaq Center sports arena but is now his church. "Let's just celebrate the goodness of the Lord!" Osteen yells. His wife Victoria says, "Our Daddy God is the strongest! He's the mightiest!"
And so it goes, before 14,000 attendees, a nonstop declaration of God's love and his intent to show it in the here and now, sometimes verging on the language of an annual report. During prayer, Osteen thanks God for "your unprecedented favor. We believe that 2006 will be our best year so far. We declare it by faith." Today's sermon is about how gratitude can "save a marriage, save your job [and] get you a promotion."
"I don't think I've ever preached a sermon about money," he says a few hours later. He and Victoria meet with TIME in their pastoral suite, once the Houston Rockets' locker and shower area but now a zone of overstuffed sofas and imposing oak bookcases. "Does God want us to be rich?" he asks. "When I hear that word rich, I think people say, 'Well, he's preaching that everybody's going to be a millionaire.' I don't think that's it." Rather, he explains, "I preach that anybody can improve their lives. I think God wants us to be prosperous. I think he wants us to be happy. To me, you need to have money to pay your bills. I think God wants us to send our kids to college. I think he wants us to be a blessing to other people. But I don't think I'd say God wants us to be rich. It's all relative, isn't it?" The room's warm lamplight reflects softly off his crocodile shoes.
Osteen is a second-generation Prosperity teacher. His father John Osteen started out Baptist but in 1959 withdrew from that fellowship to found a church in one of Houston's poorer neighborhoods and explore a new philosophy developing among Pentecostals. If the rest of Protestantism ignored finances, Prosperity placed them center stage, marrying Pentecostalism's ebullient notion of God's gifts with an older tradition that stressed the power of positive thinking. Practically, it emphasized hard work and good home economics. But the real heat was in its spiritual premise: that if a believer could establish, through word and deed (usually donation), that he or she was "in Jesus Christ," then Jesus' father would respond with paternal gifts of health and wealth in this life. A favorite verse is from Malachi: "'Bring all the tithes into the storehouse ... and try Me now in this,' says the Lord of hosts. 'If I will not for you open the windows of heaven and pour out for you such blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it.'" (See boxes.)
It is a peculiarly American theology but turbocharged. If Puritanism valued wealth and Benjamin Franklin wrote about doing well by doing good, hard-core Prosperity doctrine, still extremely popular in the hands of pastors like Atlanta megachurch minister Creflo Dollar, reads those Bible verses as a spiritual contract. God will pay back a multiple (often a hundredfold) on offerings by the congregation. "Poor people like Prosperity," says Stephen Prothero, chairman of the religion department at Boston University. "They hear it as aspirant. They hear, 'You can make it too--buy a car, get a job, get wealthy.' It can function as a form of liberation." It can also be exploitative. Outsiders, observes Milmon Harrison of the University of California at Davis, author of the book Righteous Riches, often see it as "another form of the church abusing people so ministers could make money."
n the past decade, however, the new generation of preachers, like Osteen, Meyer and Houston's Methodist megapastor Kirbyjon Caldwell, who gave the benediction at both of George W. Bush's Inaugurals, have repackaged the doctrine. Gone are the divine profit-to-earnings ratios, the requests for offerings far above a normal 10% tithe (although many of the new breed continue to insist that congregants tithe on their pretax rather than their net income). What remains is a materialism framed in a kind of Tony Robbins positivism. No one exemplifies this better than Osteen, who ran his father's television-production department until John died in 1999. "Joel has learned from his dad, but he has toned it back and tapped into basic, everyday folks' ways of talking," says Ben Phillips, a theology professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. That language is reflected in Your Best Life Now, an extraordinarily accessible exhortation to this-world empowerment through God. "To live your best life now," it opens, to see "your business taking off. See your marriage restored. See your family prospering. See your dreams come to pass ..." you must "start looking at life through eyes of faith." Jesus is front and center but not his Crucifixion, Resurrection or Atonement. There are chapters on overcoming trauma and a late chapter on emulating God's generosity. (And indeed, Osteen's church gave more than $1 million in relief money after Hurricane Katrina.) But there are many more illustrations of how the Prosperity doctrine has produced personal gain, most memorably, perhaps, for the Osteen family: how Victoria's "speaking words of faith and victory" eventually brought the couple their dream house; how Joel discerned God's favor in being bumped from economy to business class.
Confronting such stories, certain more doctrinally traditional Christians go ballistic. Last March, Ben Witherington, an influential evangelical theologian at Asbury Seminary in Kentucky, thundered that "we need to renounce the false gospel of wealth and health--it is a disease of our American culture; it is not a solution or answer to life's problems." Respected blogger Michael Spencer--known as the Internet Monk--asked, "How many young people are going to be pointed to Osteen as a true shepherd of Jesus Christ? He's not. He's not one of us." Osteen is an irresistible target for experts from right to left on the Christian spectrum who--beyond worrying that he is living too high or inflating the hopes of people with real money problems--think he is dragging people down with a heavy interlocked chain of theological and ethical errors that could amount to heresy.
Most start out by saying that Osteen and his ilk have it "half right": that God's goodness is biblical, as is the idea that he means us to enjoy the material world. But while Prosperity claims to be celebrating that goodness, the critics see it as treating God as a celestial ATM. "God becomes a means to an end, not the end in himself," says Southwestern Baptist's Phillips. Others are more upset about what it de-emphasizes. "[Prosperity] wants the positive but not the negative," says another Southern Baptist, Alan Branch of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Mo. "Problem is, we live on this side of Eden. We're fallen." That is, Prosperity soft-pedals the consequences of Adam's fall--sin, pain and death--and their New Testament antidote: Jesus' atoning sacrifice and the importance of repentance. And social liberals express a related frustration that preachers like Osteen show little interest in battling the ills of society at large. Perhaps appropriately so, since, as Prosperity scholar Harrison explains, "philosophically, their main way of helping the poor is encouraging people not to be one of them."
Most unnerving for Osteen's critics is the suspicion that they are fighting not just one idiosyncratic misreading of the gospel but something more daunting: the latest lurch in Protestantism's ongoing descent into full-blown American materialism. After the eclipse of Calvinist Puritanism, whose respect for money was counterbalanced by a horror of worldliness, much of Protestantism quietly adopted the idea that "you don't have to give up the American Dream. You just see it as a sign of God's blessing," says Edith Blumhofer, director of Wheaton College's Center for the Study of American Evangelicals. Indeed, a last-gasp resistance to this embrace of wealth and comfort can be observed in the current evangelical brawl over whether comfortable megachurches (like Osteen's and Warren's) with pumped-up day-care centers and high-tech amenities represent a slide from glorifying an all-powerful God to asking what custom color you would prefer he paint your pews. "The tragedy is that Christianity has become a yes-man for the culture," says Boston University's Prothero.
Non-prosperity parties from both conservative and more progressive evangelical camps recently have been trying to reverse the trend. Eastern University professor Ron Sider's book Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, a fringe classic after its publication in 1977, is selling far more copies now, and some young people are even acting on its rather radical prescriptions: a sprinkling of Protestant groups known loosely as the New Monastics is experimenting with the kind of communal living among the poor that had previously been the province of Catholic orders. Jim Wallis, longtime leader of one such community in Washington and the editor of Sojourners magazine, has achieved immense exposure lately with his pleas that Evangelicals engage in more political activism on behalf of the poor.
And then there is Warren himself, who by virtue of his energy, hypereloquence and example (he's working in Rwanda with government, business and church sectors) has become a spokesman for church activism. "The church is the largest network in the world," he says. "If you have 2.3 billion people who claim to be followers of Christ, that's bigger than China."
And despite Warren's disdain for Prosperity's theological claims, some Prosperity churches have become players in the very faith-based antipoverty world he inhabits, even while maintaining their distinctive theology. Kirbyjon Caldwell, who pastors Windsor Village, the largest (15,000) United Methodist church in the country, can sound as Prosperity as the next pastor: "Jesus did not die and get up off the Cross so we could live lives full of despair and disappointment," he says. He quotes the "abundant life" verse with all earnestness, even giving it a real estate gloss: "It is unscriptural not to own land," he announces. But he's doing more than talk about it. He recently oversaw the building of Corinthian Pointe, a 452-unit affordable-housing project that he claims is the largest residential subdivision ever built by a nonprofit. Most of its inhabitants, he says, are not members of his church.
Caldwell knows that prosperity is a loaded term in evangelical circles. But he insists that "it depends on how you define prosperity. I am not a proponent of saying the Lord's name three times, clicking your heels and then you get what you ask for. But you cannot give what you do not have. We are fighting what we call the social demons. If I am going to help someone, I am going to have to have something with which to help."
Caldwell knows that the theology behind this preacherly rhetoric will never be acceptable to Warren or Sider or Witherington. But the man they all follow said, "By their fruits you will know them," and for some, Corinthian Pointe is a very convincing sort of fruit. Hard-line Prosperity theology may always seem alien to those with enough money to imagine making more without engaging God in a kind of spiritual quid pro quo. And Osteen's version, while it abandons part of that magical thinking, may strike some as self-centered rather than God centered. But American Protestantism is a dynamic faith. Caldwell's version reminds us that there is no reason a giving God could not invest even an awkward and needy creed with a mature and generous heart. If God does want us to be rich in this life, no doubt it's this richness in spirit that he is most eager for us to acquire.
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